VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDI'fED TRl\_NSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. THURSDAY, ~.RCH 26, 1981 .. , NO.l8 .. , .. , .. , ' ' I

.. , }larch 26, 1981 Tape ;\i"o. 661 EL - 1 The House met at 3:00 P.M . i'ir. Speaker in the Chair. i'1R. SPEAKER (Simms ) : Order, please! Hen. members, I know, would lik~ to join me in welcoming to the Galerry today a delegation =rom the community of :Vling' s Bight in the district of Baie Vert - 'tihi te Bay, i-ir. Lloyd Jenkins, the ~·1ayor 1 and two councillors. SOME HON. i•IENBERS: Hear, hear! STl1.TEMENTS BY :VliNISTERS ;-rR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance . DR.COLLINS: Mr.

Speaker, in August, 1930, I announced that government had decided to bring before the House of Assembly legislation which would separate the posts of ~omp- t=oller and Deputy Minister of Finance. Although the separate ., appointment of the Somptroller cannot be legally made until an a.T.e:q<iment to t:1e Financial Administration Act, no1v on the Order Paper, i1as been dealt with by trte House, certain administrati ve changes are being made in the Depart~ent of Finance which will facilitate separation with respect to the duties and respon- sibili ties of the Comptroller and the Deputy 1-iiniste=.

I would like to inform the House at this time that government has approved the creation of a new ., ;::>est in the Department of Finance at the Assistant Deputy ihnister level to be titled Assistant Comptroller, Tax Administration and ~~e appoint~ent thereto of Mr. Robert G. Clarke, C.G.A. Mr. Clarke, who is 37 years oi age, 'tlas born in Bonavist3., entered the ' Pcovincial Pu:Dlic Service in 1961 and served in various capacities i;:< the Depart.:nent of t:1e Auditor General until 1974 1when he joined the Department of ?in- ance.

Since ·that time he has progressed through various levels of management, including :Vlanager of Tax Audit and, since 1977, 1 I '.J I .,

!'larch 26, 1981 Tape :\fo 661 EL - 2 DR. COLLINS: Director of Taxation. He also served as acting Assistant Deputy ~inister of · Finance for some six months d~ring 1980. 1e7s ... .,

c!arch 26, 19131 Tape No. 662 ::H-1 - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Sirnrns): The hon. the member for the Strait of Eel]_e Isle. ? "4R. E. i=l.OBE:RTS : "lr. St;Jeaker, for our part, those of us sitting on this side of the House "'elcome the announcement made bv the minister. The decision to sulit the duties cf Comptroller away from those of the Det;Jutv ~inister of Finance and to create two separate positions and to at;Jpoint two separ- ate officials to fill those positions is a very reasonable one. in our ?Oint of view.

It could be said, I suppose, that it is an historical evolut:in"'., and at one stage I understand the 90si tion -.~as called Carptroller and Auditor General a!!d in due course, I S'.11Jpose, twenty maybe thirty years aqo - I al'1 not sure,but it was about the time of Confederatio!! that one man was ao9ointec ~oller and Deouty ~inister of ?inance and the second qentleman was appointed to be the Auditor General. ~'Jell, now 'tl'e !'lave come a stage further. Mr.

Clark is obviously admirably qualified, a distinguished career in the Public Service to date going back b1enty years and steadily risinq in responsi- bility. I assume that he will be apoointed the Comptroller. I am not asking the minister to confirm that. but I ;~ould hope he ·,.;ill be. He seems to be the obvious candidate and I asswne that is why the ministei has made this move a& this time pending the aporoval by the House of the legislation. Y!R. S. :-J:C:;\'lY: And mainly because of the ?ubiic ;\ccounts Comnittee. :-!~. E. ROBERTS: il.!y friend for LaPoile (~Tr. ~ear<

r) as always is stoutlv off-key with rne, in this c~se slightly ahead of ,.,,e. I was just about to say that, of course, it should be noted as well that this is one of the many fine leaacies left to this :rouse btr .~::-. Sir!t:.-nor:s, Y!.r. Roger 5i::rrncns, ~~e Ttembe~ :cr ... ("' -: - : "'I I w' . 'I

~larch 26, 1981 Ta?e No. 662 D'iJ - 2 ~R. E. ROBE?.TS: Burin - St. George 's in the P.ou se of Commons at Ottawa , a gentleman who is makinq his mark there. ~!R . J . ~ORG.:U-:: :.ffi. E. ROBERTS: Wl:o is? ~. Roger Simmons. A name that will be remembered lone; after the name of the ~resent ~J.nister of Fisheries (~r. ~organ ) is :orgotten . 'tr .

Roge r Simmons as Chairman of the ?ublic Accounts Committee ?resided over that committee i~ a memorable fash~on and one of the many recommen­ dations ttey made that ought to be implemented • . .,ras the one which lee to chis decision today by the governmenc. r believe it \.,ras in che report for the year ending - I am not sure what year ending,but it was the report which they tabled a year or so ?ast du=ing ~. Simmons' membershi? in this House. It is a good recorr.rnendacion . I am glad that the government have . · 1878 "! •. .•.

March '27,. 1981 Tape No. 663 MR. ROBERTS: accepted it and we look forward with optimism to the good results which will flow from it. MR. NEARY: this year. A few more recommendations NM - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : We also have in the gallery today,and I am pleased to welcome them on behalf of all han. members,a delegation from the Town Council of Gaultois in the district of Fortune-Hermitage, Mr. Wayne Kendell, Mr. Wayne Baggs and Mr. Ron Simms. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Further statements? MR. SPEAKER: Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: ORAL QUESTIONS: The han. member for Windsor- Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is for the han. ~~e Premier. Since Newfoundland Hydro is a crea t 1lre of the govern­ ment, since PUB-the Public utilities Board -is a creature of tl1e government, would the Premier now tell the House whether or not he is prepared to reconsider the decision to increase Hydro rates in this Province as announced by the Chairman of Hydro, an increase that may go as high, between eightee~ and twenty-three per cent, would the Premier tell thaHouse whethe~ he is prepared to reconsider that increase to the electrical consumers of-this Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, we have not decided to increase electrical rates in the Province. The Government of Newfour. .dland and Labrador has not decided to increase electrical rates in the Province. Newfoundland and Labrador 1879

March 27, 1981 Tape No. 663 NH - 2 PRE.HIER PECKFORD: Hydro has decided to apply to the Public Utilities Board to increase rates. 2-iR. NEARY: The same thing. PREMIER PECKFORD: .=\.fter :Jew·fo:mdland and Labrador Hydro applies,and public hearings are held and all sides of the issue are debated,the Public Utilities Board then makes a recoi!'.mendation to the government and at ti:.at point in time t.he government will decide whether in fact t:l-tat recommendation - whether it is for increased rates, decreased rates, the same rates -will be made. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Simms) : A supplementary, the :'1on. me.mber for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: ~!r. Speaker, I do :10t know why we are prepared to go to PUB- I do not accept the Pra~ier's position-that PUB is a creature of government, appointed by government every one of them and will rule in favour of government. The fact is, Mr. Speaker, that last year PUB permitted Newfoundland Light and Power - MR. MARSa-r;LL: A point of order, ~r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the hen. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: The purpose of t~e Juescion Period, Mr.

Speaker, is so ask questions, not to enter into debate or to debate the ans•;;ers that have been gi ';en. MR. SPEAKER: To the point. of order, c.he hen. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. c1R. ROBERTS: He is ~wful touc~y . MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I will ~e very brief and make my cow~enc. worthy of merit of the point raised by my learned friend. Ee has stated the rule correctly, he j~st misapplied i~: ~y friend from ~indsor- Buchans was not debating it, he was simply giving &he questioc He has not got an a:-~s-·ler _ he has not gct~en one. He is si~ply ~ : • Ee canna~ give one and

~4arch 26,1981 Tape No. 664 AH-1 MR. F.OBERTS : giving the question, giving the normal prefatorv remarks, he is doing it of course in his own inimitable way ~nd that, Sir, is his proroqative. So inclucing even the gentleman from St. John's East (Mr. ~arshall) who performs copiously and frequently in his own inimitable way, Sir, which we deeply appreciate. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: In the interest of equal time,because I was very short and I will be short again,if the hon.gentleman - MR. HANCOCK: (Inaudible) wasting the time of the House with poiLts of order. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order . MR. MARSHALL: If the hon. gentleman gets up and prefixes his remarks by,'I do not accept'etc., etc., he is obviously introducing areas of debate. There is a procedure later on today for debating · the Question Period and perhaps the hon. gentlemer. \110uld like t;o use it tt1.is week where they did not use it last week. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the Standing / Orders are quite clear for all members to observe and adhear to debate is not permitted during Question Period.

I believe it is a legitimate point of order and if the hon. member was beginning to mo~e into the area of oeb~te, I ask him to restrain himself in that respect and to direct his supplementary question. MR. FLIGHT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor- Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I do not know why the people of Newfoundland \11ould have tCD much confidence in PUB. Last year,as the Prenier knows,the Board of Public Utilities approved an increase for Newfoundland Light that allowed ~ewfoundland Light and permitted them to overcharge 1 8 81 . . 'I

~-lar::::h 25,1981 Tape No. 664 AH-2 ~-1~. FLIGHT: consumers in this Province by $1 r;~illion and the way Lqewfoundland Light decided to ·re..L'llburse the people #as by taking of the fuel adjustment charge. ;vould the Premier indicate to the House whether or not - and Mr. Young goes out of his way in his statement to point out that the 1980 fuel adjustment charge was low ~ and would the Premier confirm that the reason it was lo~1 was !:Jecause that 'N'as the wav Newfoundland Light chose t::J reimburse the people fer ~he million dollars that they overcharged? Y~. SPE~KER (S~ms): The han. the ?rernier.

PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker if it takes that long to ask a question,then I have the rest of the Question ?eriod to answer it based on proportionate time,and then the Op9ositicn would surely be - Mr. Speaker, I have explained, we have explained, this gover~~ent has explained =rom time to tL~e the situation as it relates to Hydro increases in L~is Province. The Public Utilities Board protects the public interests and it has done,in my vie~ over the last couple of years relating to Hydro increases and ether instances and other increases and ether applications a very , very good job. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, I have not heard one iota ~f evidence to suggest that the Public Utilities Board has done anything but an expert job. I would like for somebody to show · me some evidence, :-tr. Speaker, not to make statements, I would like the!'!l to show evidence as to ;,.;here the Public Utilities Board has net done a good job. ~hey have done an excellent job, 1 3 3 2 .. , .. , .. , .. , •..

!-lar.ch 26, 1981 Tape 665 PK - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: Now this is a process. If, Mr. Speaker, this is left to be in the political arena every time increases come forward, then may I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that the Province is going to be in a chaotic situation. This is the whole reason for doing it this way, so it is independence, so that the Opposition party, so that the Federation of Municipalities, so that the Consumers Association,who do not have representation as an organization in this hon.

House, for example, will have an opportunity to say their piece and to oppose or otherwise intervene into that hearing of the Public Utilities Board. It is an independent,quasi judicial body which does a good job of assessing the merits of an application for an increase by a public utility, 'it is recognized as such all throughout Canada and and throughout the Western World. It is an excellent way to go about trying to operate public utilities.

And as far as the oil price goes in the question, the reason why Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro said what they said is that they were very fortunate, and again we must compliment them on this, on negotiating fairly good prices for oil in the last year to two years. Now whether in fact Newfoundland and Labrador Hydro are going to be able to negotiate those kinds of low prices for oil in the coming year is a real good question, .because ~he price,as everybody knows, is going up.

Now and then, if you are in the marketplace at the right time and you have the right window of time to go into the marketplace, there might be a flush market for oil and you might be able to get a good price for it. And that is the reason for it. So they do not know, 1883 " I .. , ., .., •·;

~ ~larch 26, 1981 Tape 665 PK - 2 ?RE}U~R !?ECKI'ORD: It looks like now t.i1a t the t:.rand for price increases on oil are such that ~ewfouncland Hydro will not be able to get as good a price fo r a barrel of oil nex~ year or this coming year as it got last year, and chereiore they must reflect that increase of oil in the price that they have to cha .rge the consumers of t!'\e Province, and that is a :air equitable way to do it .

So the Public utilicies Board is a very, very responsible body to try to hear all sides of che question and ~hen to make recomm .endations tc gover~ent as to how to proceed with che public ucilicies of this ?rovince. SOl-IE HON • )!EMBERS : :fear, hear! ~1R. FLIGHT : MI. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : A supplementary, the hon. ~ember :or Windsor -Buchans. ~1R . FLIGHT: r1r . Speaker, 1884 .. .. .. I ~

1-larch 26, 1981 Tape No. 666 so l ~1R. FLIGHT: the Premier knows that PUB allowed last year an increase to Newfoundland Light that allowed, permitted Newfoundland Light to overcharge the consumers by $1 million and that is why the fuel adjustment charge was low in 1980 because that is the way they tried to reimburse. But in the meantime, Mr. Speaker, my final question: The increase of anywhere between 18 per cent and 23 per cent is going to impact very, very badly on the senior citizens of this Province, the people on fixed income.

Now the Premier is on record in supporting our move to world prices, an immediate move to world prices. He is also on record, and the ~inister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry) indicated last night in his TV coverage that the Premier was going to look at programmes - he announced he would - that \vould lessen the impact on the people of this Province of the ever increasing cost of electricity and the ever increasing cost of electricity here is justified by the ever increasing cost of oil, and that increase is going to impact in the cost of goods and services as well as directly on electrical bills.

What programmes is the Premier thinking about bringing in that will lessen the impact on the people on fixed incomes, senior citizens and what have you, the programmes that he promised a year ago? MR. SPEAKER (Simms):. The hon. the Premier: PREY!IER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, first of all, the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) is completely incorrect. This government does not stand for going to '. . wor~a pr!.ces. S0~1E :iON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh.

PRE"HER !?ECKFORD: This government stands for gradual increases in the price of oil to 75 ~er cent of the C~icago. ~ow that is a big difference than going to :.-or ld price. A.t1.d, "lr. Speaker, for the hon. merr,ber's edification .that is going to help Newfoundland because the 1885 .. , .. , ..,

March 26, l9Sl Tape No. 666 SD - 2 PREMIER !?EC;ITORD: cay that it is announced that we have ownership of QUr oil and gas the sarne way as we do of our trees , then >·re •..rill have a comme;:cial development of offshore oil and ga s which will provide revenue for this Province which will keep o~~ er prices down ~~d to be able to give people on :ixed incomes ~ore money then they now have .

No'" if we had an agreement !:::-om t~e Opposition , .from the Liberal Party of Ne,vfoundland, like we do !:ro:n all the other provinces of Canada on this whole guestion of of !:shore ownership ,perhaps it would help us a lot, 1-tr . Speaker, in ensuring that that came about . As it relates to l:i:<ed incomes, :·tr .

Speaker, and other people who are in less fortunate positions in the economy, we are now in the pr ocess of going through our budgetary items and we will be trying to provide ~~rough those mechanisms that are in place and others to help people 1"ho are on fixed incomes . \'ie did last year, 1886 ":I ":I .. ·.~I

March 26, 1981, Tape 667, Page 1 -- apb PR~~~ER .~ECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, introduce a drug programme to help people and senior citizens who get the guaranteed income. We did increase the amount of money for people who are getting social assistance. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER(Simms): Order, please! PREMIER PECKFORD: So, Mr. Speaker, we have in the past year or so, done a fair amount in trying to provide additional money, and put money in the hands or in the pockets of people who are on fixed income and we will continue to do that in the future. The other answer to it, Mr.

Speaker, if I can just clue up now my few remarks on this supplementary question from the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) is this, that the long-term, if you want to look at the benefits for the Province, the long­ term answer to our problems is the development of the Lower Churchill,which gives stably priced power and then the increases will be less each year.

And we are trying to persuade the Liberal Opposition to please support the government on the Gull Island project, to please support the government on offshore oil and gas; and if we have that kind of unanimity here within the Province it will increase our chances of ensuring that we will provide more wealth for all our people and even increase over time, the salary-of the member for Windsor-Buchans. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for LaPoile. · MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, my question if for the Premier and it has to do with a Ministerial Statement that the bon. gentleman made yesterday in connection with the behaviour of ministers. Now, would the hon. gentleman indicate to the House if he has any knowledge 1887 .. , ., .. ,

!-larch 26, 1981, Tape 667, Page 2 -- apb ~·IlL NEARY: of ministers,either in the former administration, the Moores ' administration.or in his own administration, does he have any knowledge or has it been reported co him that any of these ministers bought stock or ~ on the stock market in connection with the oil discovery off our shores? :-1R. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon . the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD : Mr. Speaker, I am very happy the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary ) asked that question because I am very proud of that Ministerial Statement of yes~erday; that is a major reform by this administration and by this government, and'we are very proud that we have had the opportunity here to make these kinds of reforms co the government ope rat ion , to the operation of the ministry, to the operation of th e senior public service . It is a milestone and it is a 1B83 .. .. , ... "1 ,.

March 26, 1981 Tape No. ·668 EL - 1 PREMIER PECKFORD: great day to be able to say now that we are going to put in place these regulat~ons and these guidelines. To answer the bon. member's questions directly, if in fact I do come in contact with that kind of information, I will inform the hon. member. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. IV!R. SPEAKER (Simms): A supplementary, the hon. member for LaPoile. r>1R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman did not answer my question.

I asked the bon. gentleman if he had any knowledge of any of his ministers playing the stock market or any of the ministers in the Moores' administration playing the stock market. P~d that is the question I asked. It is just a simple yes or no answer, that is all I want from the bon. gentleman. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I do not know why the hon. member for LaPoile (S.Neary) should limit it to that. I would like to, you know, I have other knowledge besides know­ ledge about ministers in one government and, ~inisters in another government.

I think the hon. member for LaPoile was a minister in the government at one time and I think I have certain know­ ledge about some of the activities during that time as well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEARY: :V!R. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Hear, hear! A supplementary, Mr.Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member As a supplementary, I would ask the hon. gentleman to put information that he has on the Table of the House whether it is about the Moores' administration ·or about the administration before that. If the hon. gentleman 1889 ''I " I ., .. ,

Harch 26, 1981 Tape No. 668 EL - 2 MR •. NE.l\.RY: has evidence of wrong-doing or abuse or-what do you call it? - a breach of trust on the part of any ministers in any administration, would he please tell the House and lay the documentation on the Table of the House? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, who is talking about wrong-doing or abuse? I never mentioned anything about wrong-doing or abuse. I do not know why the bon. member for LaPoile(S.Neary) would bring up abuse and wrong-doing. I thought the bon. member for LaPoile was asking if I had in­ formation.

Now, if ~he hon. member's question was not whether I had information, · it is rather whether I had sofue kind of in­ formation which had to do with abuse and wrong-doing, well,my gracious, that is another question, Mr. Speaker. That is a pretty important point the hon. member for LaPoile makes,and I thought ne was looking for pure information but now that he is .looking for wrong-doing and abuse of power and all these kinds of things, that will take a fairly lengthy investigation into the activities of the han. member for LaPoile when he was a minister, the han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (E.

Roberts) when he was a minister,and all the ministers over here - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! PREMIER PECKFORD: and the ministers in the former administration, and perhaps we could go back to the ministries before 1949 and so on and get all this information and then we could look to see whether there was wrong-doing and abuse that the member for LaPoile talks about. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Shame, shame! PREHIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, this has all the evidence to me of a very massive investigation. 1890 ''I •..

March 26, 1981 Tape No. 669 DW - l PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not know but we had better start getting the CIA involved. SOJI<I.E HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! PPE~1IER PECKFORD: This looks like a pretty massive investigation. I do not think, Mr. Speaker, that the Royal Commission on forestry - SO~.E HON. MEMBERS: ~~. SPEAKER (Simms): PREMIER PECKFORD: Oh, oh! Order, please! - or the Royal Commission on the inshore fishery would even come close to the kind of investi­ gation we are talking about here. "!R. S. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: member for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: A final supplementarv, J'olr. SpeRker.

A final sup?lementary, the hon. Apparently the Premier has adopted a new technique now, Mr. Speaker, he is stepping outside of his desk as if he is still in the classroom, becoming a kinder­ garten debater now. SOME HON. ~.EMBERS : ."'L'R.. S • NEARY: Oh, oh! I challenge the hon. gentleman now that if there is - if he has any knowledge of any wrongdoing or any breach of trust on the path of any minister - SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: t-'R. S. NEARY: duty to put it on the - MR. W. ~RSF.ALL: MR. SPEAKER: Oh, .oh! Order, please! -in any administration,it is his A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

A point of order has been raised by the hon. the President of the Council. MR. W. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, the Question Period, as I say, is for the purpose of asking questions. The Opposi­ tion asked the question and it would appear to me that the han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) has taken the guise of answering questions. 1891 .. ,

:·!arch 26, 1981 Tape No . 669 01'1 - 2 ~R. SP~~ER (Simm s) : Fur-..her to that also , I do not believe it is the purpose curing Question Period to issue challenges. The purpose is to ask questions . The hon. member :or LaPoile (~ . Neary) has a question . MR. S. ~~ARY : ~tr. Speake r, I will ask the hon. gencle ­ ~an ~~other question.

Does the hon . gentleman have any knowledge ~;at a minister in the fo~er administration or in che presen~ admi:tistration used information for his own advam:age~ For instance, went out and bouaht land in a ce~ain area '.-'here he thought t~at some cevelopments relatec to the of!shore oil might be going to take place or any othe r ~atter? Does the hen . gen~le ­ ~an hav e any knowledge of any former Premier or any mi~isters breaching cheir trust and using ~;e information for their O'Nn advantage? \ffi, SPEAKER: The hon. the Pr~~ier . PREMIER PECKFORD : ~x.

Speaker, I did not mean to get ~ut he re li~~ t~is in school-like fash ion but somet i~es ~~e qu~scions ~~inatiJ19 from the other si de does remind on e of ,· 1892 ,, •. ,,

.March 26, 1981 Tape 670 PK - 1 PREHIER PECKFORD: some of the questions I was asked when I taught Grade V and Grade VI, and - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PREMIER PECKFORP: -I automatically revert to another occupation and I am very sorry and I apologize to the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) for doing that because perhaps - !'JR. NEARY: PREMIER PECKFORD Speaker ·­ MR. FLIGJ:iT: MR. SPEAKER (Mr . Simms): PR&~IER PECKFORD: (Inaudible) Ottawa. - it is not really proper. l'ihen I have information, Mr. (Inaudible) Ottawa. Order, please!

When I have information that I want to pass on to the hon. member for LaPoile about activities when he was a minister or when the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Roberts) was a minister or other people were ministers,I will let them know in due course. ~JR. NEARY: Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: hon. member for LaPoile. ~JR. NEARY: A final supplementary, Mr. A final, final supplementary, the Mr. Speaker, this is· ~~e gentleman who is trying to portray the impression of honesty and integrity : At\l HON. t1EMBER: Yes, right on . MR.

NEARY: And here he is sidetracking some very important questions and refusing to give the House the information. I want to ask the hon. gentleman now in connection with this Ministerial Statement, 1893 .. I

March 26, 1981 Tape 670 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: this window dressing that he gave the House yesterday, if the han. gentleman intends to insist that ministers in his government now stop practicing law, now stop representing the Bank of Montreal, is the han. gentleman going to insist on that? That two of his ministers who are, one practicing law actively downtown representing the Bank of Montreal to the Premier's right, and the other gentleman with his name on the letterhead as counsel for that law firm, is the hon. gentleman going to put an end to that dangerous practice? MR. MARSHALL: (Inaudible). MR.

HANCOCK: Answer the question. Answer the question. MR. SPEAKER (Mr. Simms): The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: The Question Period now, if one notices now, Mr. Speaker, the Question Period, as the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) does not get his own way it gradually starts to deteriorate, and then we start to hear some innuendo as the member for LaPoile starts to refer to the different members on this side of the House. Now why do we not keep this on a high level and let us get through - MR. NEARY: That is right. PREMIER PECKFORD: - the Question Period. MR. ROBERTS: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER:. Order, please! A point of order has been raised by the han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS.: (Inaudible) to lecture the Premier on high levels or low levels. I mean he has his own knowledge of low levels. 1894 't

~ March 26, 1981 Tape 670 PK - 3 MR. LU.S;t: Row about low-b~ds? MR. ROBERTS: He may even have some knowledge of low-beds or high levels. But what I do feel, Sir, is it hardly in order for the Premier to launch into the sort of vituperation and abuse-of which he is a master,I will grant him - in answer to a question. If he wants to show his kindergarten tactics, Sir, let him do it in debate and not in the Question Period. He is not answering the questioner. He is imputing motives to my hen. friend - MR. NEARY: Right. MR. ROBERTS: - he is questioning his integrity.

If he wants to make a snappy answer to a question,that is up to him, that is within the rules, Sir, if that is his style,let him do it. But I do not think the abuse and vituperation that the Premier was launching into really is part of this House at all, and I do not think it adds to the Question Period. Sir, I suggest it is out of order. PREMIER PECKFORD: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. ~ffi. SPEAKER (Mr. Simms): hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: To the point of order, the I never imputed motives. As a matter of fact, the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) who brought up references to individuals on this side and their activities. So if one is going to talk about points of order related to that,then one has to talk about where this kind of lanaguage originated, and it originated in the question from the hon. member for LaPoile. In any case, it is not a·point of order. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: member for LaPoile. To that point of order,' Mr. Speaker. To the point of order, the hon. 1 8 9 5 .. ,

March 26, 1981 Tape 670 PK - 4 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I submit that the hon. gentleman did impute motives on my part, Sir, when the hon. gentleman said that I used innuendo - which I did not · Mr. Speaker. I merely asked - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! .1--lR. NEARY: I did not through innuendo or any other way 1896 .,, ''! .,,

Harch 27, 1981 Tape No. 671 NM - 1 HR. NEARY: make an accusation against the hon. gentleman that there was any wrongdoing. I merely asked the Premier if now he was going to put an end to that dangerous practice. AN EOi:!. HEMBER: No. HR. SPEAKER (Simms): Well, to the point of order I rule there is no point of order, a difference of opinion. . The hon. member for Grand Bank. MR. NEARY: Let him answer. MR. THOMS: .You want to - Does the Premier want to answer. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr.

Speaker, when I make changes, or when the guidelines are released for the ministers, and when they are for the public servants it will be clear what is within the guidelines and what is outside the guidelines,and whether I include matters of law firms for ministers or whether I include whether they can do that or something else,that will be in the guidelines. AN HON. HEMBER: Undertakers. PREHIER PECKFORD: Yes, undertakers, whether they can continue to practice their trade, and so on. So - MR. HANCOCK: The dead do not talk: PREMIER PECKFORD: There is no particular one person.

There are principles that are going to be applied and I do not think any reference to any individual member is going to necessarily be picked out of the whole works. In any case,I do not know why the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) is asking the questions because he has already indicated that this and another series of great reforms is only wi~dow dressing in his opinion and it is really strange how he keeps answering questions about window dressing. 1 8 9 7 .. , ..

'" March 27, 1981 MR. NEARY: sincere you are. SOJI-'E HO~. MEMBERS : MR. THOMS: Tape No. 671 NM - 2 I am trying to find out how Right. Right. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. If I could just get down to asking a couple of mundane questions relating to my own constituency,! would like to ask the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) a question. On March lOth., when I questioned the minister on this in the House of Assembly in relation to a commitment made to the Fishermen's Committee of St.

Lawrence, his reply at that time was that he would dis- cuss this commitment with the Fishermen's Committee in the very near future. My question is has he discussed this with the fishermen of St. Lawrence? MR. HISCOCK: you have a supplementary? MR. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER: MR. MORGAN: Is that your only question? Do Yes. The hon. Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, I think it is un­ fortunate that this kind of question be put forward in Question Period. I will be glad to sit down and talk to the hon. gentleman outside the Question Period about such a small matter but still important to St.

Lawrence,! assume.And the fact is that the St. Lawrence Council asked for a meeting about ten days ago, I told them any day of the wee~ 1898 .. , .. , .. ,

March 26, 1981 Tape No. 672 SD - 1 MR. MGRGAN: this week and I understand that Mr. Leo Slaney, I think it is, the contact person for the council, will be corning in either today or tomorrow to meet with me,and at least I am hoping for the meeting with them, and also they will discuss fishery's matters and bring with them a member of the Fishermen's Committee. But surely these kinds of questions, Mr. Speaker, could be brought forward to me outside the House any time at all rather than be brought before the House of Assembly. MR. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): for Grand Bank. MR. THOMS: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Supplementary, the hon. member I can advise the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan), Mr. Speaker, that I wrote to the minister a good month ago in connection with those particular questions and he has not given me the courtesy of an answer yet. That is the kind of co-operation that I am getting outside the House from the Minister of Fisheries and that is why I am asking the questions in the House. Mr. Speaker, on the same day, on March lOth, the minister said that he would be meeting,and he gave the impression they would be meeting i~ St. Lawrence with the Fishermen's Committee.

And his exact words were: "And within the next· few days, in fact, I •,;ill be sitting down with the 9ouncil of St. Lawrence and all members of the Fishermen's Committee". Now has this meeting taken place, has there been any contact with the Fishermen's Committee? I am not interested in whether he has been in contact with the town rnanager,who has no connection with the Fishermen's Committee. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, it is obvious the hon. gentleman is so out of touch with his district that he does not knew what is going on down in St.

Lawrence because 1899 .. , . .. , .. ,

~larch 26, 1981 Tape No. 672 SD - 2 MR . NORG.n.N: the fishery 's matter in St. La~-~rence has been put for,o~ard to the Council o£ St . Lawrence and they have been askec by the fishermen - HR . TP.0!-15: (Inaudible) :·1R. !>!ORGAN: t-1z.. Speake r, please • If I could only answer the question in a proper rational :o=.n wic~out inter::uptions . ~~. SPEAKER (Simm s): .llu.'l SON . 11E~1BER: ~tR . ~!ORGAN : Order, please ! 9e quite, 'Les .' Mr .

Speaker, all the p::oblems in these :ishing communities are important to t..'le respecti\·e communities w~d I have been trying to meet with t..~e committees i:-t t~eir own communities . For example, a fe '" days ago I lvent to Carbonear and visited the Fishermen's Committee out there, I went to Port de Grave , went to Trin ity Bay, went to Placentia Bay ai''ld out in 3onavista Bay, but \lie cannot go to all places around the Province in a short period of time wit..~ the nouse in session . The::efore because of the distan=e away :rom the House of Assetn.bly, St .

La\~Trence being so far away, I told them ten days ago I would be glad to meet with chem any day at all in St . John 's and the 1900 •. •:1 ..

March 26, 1981, Tape 673, Page 1 -- apb MR. MORGAN: council agreed they would come in and bring with them all the problems pertaining to fisheries in St. Lawrence, and I was assuming they would bring with them members of the Fishermen's Committee. I can assure the hon. gentleman that the representations made by the council of St. Lawrence will get every consideration by the provincial Department of Fisheries, and do not try to play politics with the problems of the fisheries. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : for St. Mary's - The Capes. MR. HANCOCK: The hon. the member Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the Minister of Forestry(Mr. Power). I would like to know what is the minister's department's policy on issuing cutting permits for firewood? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister. of Torest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, we have a system for issuing forest c':ltting permits that cost t•:IO dollars per person. They are available to any person in this Province who wishes to get one.

We are endeavouring, certainly, to make the forest resource available to all person~ in the Province, whether they be on t3e Avalon, where you do not have a commercial pulp and paper operation, or whether they be in Grand Falls or Corner Brook, the West and Central parts of the Province where you do have fairly substantial cornrnerical operations. I'Ve are endeavouri.!lg, Mr.

Speaker, in conjunction '\olith Grand Falls and West Newfoundland to have the pulp and paper companies make available their cut-overs, where there is a lot of hard woods left remaining, for the purpose of cutting firewood• On the Avalon Peninsula, anyone who wishes a forest cutting permit to get firewood can do so simply by going to any 1 9 0 1 .. ,

March 26, 1981, Tape 673, Page 2 -- apb MR. POWER: the region. MR. HANCOCK: Speaker. • MR. SPEAKER(Sirnms): Forestry Office in A supplementary, Mr. A supplementary. The hon. the member for St. Mary's - The Capes. MR. HANCOCK: Is the minister saying that there is not intention, in his department, of cutting out those permits in the future? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Min~ster of Forest Resources and Lands. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, from time to time we may as a government evaluate the necessity of having given types of cutting permits, or any permit that the government issues.

It is certainly not our intention at this time to cut out the permit as such. It is very important for us, as managers of the forest resource, to know exactly how much wood is being cut, whether it is being cut for a sawmill, a pulping operation, such as Grand Falls, Corner Brook or Stephenville, or whether it is being cut for firewood. It is estimated, Mr. Speaker, that there are close to 100,000 cords of wood cut in Newfoundland per year that can go into sawmilling operations or fOr the purpose of firewood useage.

We are very concerned as a department that the federal Department of Energy, I suppose, will shortly be giving energy tax credits of some type up to $800 for allowing persons to convert-to alternate sources of energy from petroleum based energy. It is certainly our concern, because it is putting a very great da~and on places like the Avalon Peninsula where there is not an unlimited supply of wood products But certainly we intend to manage the resource. At this stage of the 1902 't

March 26, 1981 , Tape 673 , Page 3 -- apb MR. POWER: game, t-tr . Speaker, we have not considered either cutting out t.he pe rm its or doing any other type of severe type of regulations to allow persons to get firewood . A fire\.;ood cutting permit is available to anybody in this Province who wishes to have one, simply as long as they follow the guidelines, the rules and regualtions that are la id do\in. And, Mr. Speaker, I would like to say 1903 •:1 'l .. ''1

March 26, 1981 Tape No. 674 EL - 1 MR. POWER: for the hon. member and for the sake of the Hou~e and the public of Newfoundland that it is a serious concern to the government in the sense that persons are on one hand getting forest cutting permits and on the other hand may be abusing the permits in cutting very small diameter wood, cutting wood very close to the main highways of the Province where they have some_aesthetic values ., cutting close to or within Provincial Parks where the minister has to enforce regualtions and those types of things. MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Order, please!

The time for Oral Questions has expired. I would like to welcome to the Gallery today a former member of this House of Assembly, Mr. Clyde Wells. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS NR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Harbour ~~in - Bell Island. MR. DOYLE: Mr. Speaker, I stand here to present a petition on behalf of approximately 2,200 people on Bell Island. I did not really count the number of names in- valved here but I am told that there are approximately 2,200 names on this petition.

And the prayer of the petition reads as follows, 'Because Bell Island is an economically depressed area and is presently doing battle 'with what is pr?b~bly one of the highest unemployment rates in all of Canada, it is the wish of the undersigned residents of Bell Island that a proposal curr­ ently before the Provincial Department of Fisheries to acquire a general seafood license which includes primary and secondary processing of- all species caught in Newfoundland for the area be approved without delay.' Mr.

Speaker, there are a number of support letters that have come along with this petition and I have absolutely no reservations in lending my support to and associating myself with this particular request being made by 1804

~!arch 26, 1981 Tape No. 674 EL - 2 M..~ . DOYLE: 2,200 people on Bell Island . And along with the petit~on ! have had a nurr~er of letters come, one from the Bell Island Development Associatian,who are responsible, I unde rstand , · for the circulation of that petition, one from the Nabana Boys and Girls Club , one from the Town Council on Bell Island ,ahd one from the Royal Can­ adian Legion, Branch No. lB. Now, it is rather interesting, :-tr.

Speaker, to refer to one of these letters, the one that was written by the Bell Island Development Association, in that it sums up rather well in that letter the cas e to be made for this type of particular proposal on Be ll Island in that it says that Bell Isla.nd was once a prosperous mi.ning comm­ unity ·boasting a work force of appraxirnately 2,200 and in 1966 it lost its only economic industria l base with the clasure o£ those mines , back in 1966. They also make reference to the 1905 .. , •:t ,, ..

March 26,1981 MR. DOYLE: Tape No. 675 AH-1 fact Mr. Speaker that a similar situation did occur some years ago in the town of St. Lawrence when themining operation was closed down there as well and it saw the loss of that mining industry. But various sectors of government , of course, did move quickly to establish fish plants in that particular area and put St. Lawre .nce back on a sound economic footing once again and I would imagine this is what the people in that area are referring to,that they would like to be given similar treatment as well.

The fact that there are approximately 2,200 people associated with this petition indicates to me that the people of Bell Island do have a very great concern and do have a desire to become gainfully employed once aqain, because Bell Island,Your Honou~ is an economically depressed area and Bell Island probably does have the hiqhest unemployment rate if not in Newfoundland:well maybe in all of Canada. And in doing some research today, Mr.

Speaker, on this particular proposal,I had occasion to call the Depart~ent of Labour and Manpower and the Unemployment Insurance Commission and the Department of Social Service and I was absolutely astounded at the number of unemployed people on Bell Island. It is nearing , I believe, sixty­ five to seventy per cent unemployment, so as you can well imagine ,Mr. _Speaker, the case to be made f'Cir ·processing in the secondary or the primary sector is a very good case indeed. I believe, Mr.

Speaker, that Bell Islanders are no different than any other people in Newfoundland in that they should be given the same opportunities as all Newfoundlanders to earn a living , to become good productive members in society and t~ey should be given a chance to make it on their own This particular proposal that I am supporting will employ approximately eighty people,and 1906 . .. ,

March 26,1981 Tape No. 675 AH-2 MR. DOYLE: we do not advocate or purport that this number of people will solve the current unemployment on Bell Island,nor do we believe that it will appreciably affect the unemployment statistics in Newfoundland, but it does represent in my opinion a good positive step forward for the people of Bell Island to get back on a good,sound economic footing once again. The people also refer in ~~is letter to the fact that Bell Island,when it did open its mining operations,saw the fishing industry in Newfoundland on the decline,Mr. Speaker.

And people from all over Conception Bay,and from all over the Avalon Peninsula as a matter of fact,rushed to Bell Island at that time to take advantage of the good 1 sourid economic footing that ~~ese people were on.And of course now they deserve and now they expect similar treatment in that the fishing industry in Newfoundland is on the upswing,so they should be given the opportunity as well to take advantage of a revised fishing industry here in Newfoundland. And I might also point out,Mr.

Speaker,that because of the geographic location of Bell Island,and because of the current ferry problems that they do have,people on Bell Island are being discr·iminated against by employers here in St. John's who refuse to hire people because they are from Bell Island because they do experience a c~r~ain amount of difficulty in getting back and forth from Bell Island to Sc. John's and as a result Mr. Speaker- I know I am rapidly running out of time. I wish I had fifteen or twenty more minutes. SOME HON.MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave. Is there leave?

By leave. 1 9 0 7 ''I .. , ' '1 .., .. ,

:.iarch 26,1981 Tape No . 675 AH -3 :.iR. S?EAKER (Simms) : Agreed . :1R . DOYLE : But \<~hat I am saying, Mr . Speaker 1 is that the people on Bell Island have been discriminated against over the years by employers in St . John 's who refuse to hire these people because -in some cases they are just as qualified even more quali!ied to take jobs in St .

John's -but because they will experience a certain dif:iculty in getting =rom Bell Island over to the city they have been told on a :lumber of different occasions ,and I have de alt with this probla~ on =ifteen or possibly t'tlenty occasions , they have been told that the job is just not there ~or them for one particular reason, that they are from Bell Island and they will experience some difficulty in getting from Sell Islanc du rin g the Winter over to th e various employment areas in St . John's . Now that, 1908 ••t .. ".'t

~~arch 26, 1981 Tape ~ic. 676 D~l - 1 '1P.. N. DOYLE: in my o:oinion 1 ~lr. Speaker I is blata~t~ open discrimination against the people of Bell Island because of their geographic location. And I think this is the opoortunity for the· peoole of that area to be put back on a good, sound,economic footing once again. Thev should be given that opoor- tunity, ~1r. Speaker. Now it '·Till employ eighty people and, . as I said .this \vill not a!Jpreciably affect the unemployment s~atistics i~ ~ewfoundland but it ~ill affect the unemploy- :c\ent rate on Be:'.l Island in that we ;.;ill have eiaht•t more oecple e~oloyed.

Now I could go into the fact of the nuir.ber of wel.fare recipients on Bell Island and I could go into the unemplovment insurance recioients and the number of these people on Bell Island: The statistics are abso- lutely astounding and because of that I feel very, very .. st=ongly indeed that Bell Island has to be given the opportunity the same as all Newfoundlanders have been c;iven the op?ortunity over t!J.e years to get back on a qood, sound,economic footing once aqain.

I think the people of this partie- ular area and the oeople of Newfoundland in general owe that to Bell Island in that they at one ooint in time,back before the year of 1966, contributed quite heavily to the economy of .. , this Province. And now \vhat they are asking for 'is' a chance themselves to contribute to Newfoundland, to contribute to ~he:.r corruclunity and as a res:.1lt I have absolutelv no reserva- tion i~ su9porting the prayer of this petition, and I wish to lay it u9cn the Table of the :-rouse and relate it ':o the ieoart8ent that it represents. SO?-' .:':: HON. ~1EMBERS: Hea.rl \:lear!

"!P. • s . :rs_:o.__R "!: : "!r. Speaker. ''I ... ~ ..... ~ - ._.

March 26, 1981 Tape No. 676 DW - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Si~~s) : The hon. member for LaPoile. ~~. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I believe I could be tempted to support the petition presented by the hon. gentle­ man on behalf of 2,200 of my fellow Bell Is1~nders. As hon. members know,I was born on Bell Island and spent most of my life on Bell Island. I have only been a city slicker, I -would say, since 1969, I think it is. When I was in the Cabinet I moved from Bell Island.and I represented Bell Island fourteen years here in the House of Assembly 1 four­ teen years 1 and was elected twice after the mine closed, by the way.

AN HON. MEMBER: MR . S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the organizations that the han. gentleman referred to, the Development Association is my godchild. I formed that Development Association on Bell Island. The Royal Canadian Legion, Branch No. 18,I am an associate member of Branch No. 18 over on Bell Island. And I spent twelve years on the town council, another letter that he mentioned there. And during the time that I was the member over there, Mr. Speaker, when the mine was in the process of closing down the Liberal Government of that day built a voca­ tional school on Bell Isiand, a district vocational school.

And I was instrumental in getting a hospital built on Bell Island,and the first organized water and sewer system on Bell Island was put the~e by me when I was the member. The first paved roads were put there by me and, Mr.

Speaker, the fish plant that the hon. gentleman is now trying to persuade his colleagues to turn into a processing plant, a fish processing plant 1 that building on the gover~~ent wharf is a federal building, owned by the federal Department of Public Works, I believe it is; I was instrumental in getting that building for a fish ~lant for the Bell Island Develop­ ment Association. 1 91 0 ., .. .. ,

March 26, 1981 Tape No. 676 DW - 3 ~ffi. S. NEARY: So the point I am making, Mr. Speaker. is this -and not only that,but after the mine closed we made a valiant attempt, effort at rehabilitating Bell Islanders so that they could go back to their old - what do you call it? - their old work of farming and fishing. And we managed 1 91 .. , .. , ' 'I ' 'I ' 'I

)<!a:-c!': 26, 1981 Tape No. 677 SD - 1 ~1R. ~EARY: to get them some boats over there and some nets to get them started because they had nothing when they came out of the mine. So the foundation is laid, Mr. Speaker, the foundation is there. Now what the hon. sentleman is trying to do is to build on that foundation. :00,'-!E HON. MEMBERS : Hear 1 hear. MR. ~EARY: And I wish him luck, ~lr. Speaker.

Unfortunately the hon. gentleman is not in the Cabinet, maybe if he was in the Cabinet he might be able to push a little harder 1 but he is in the Premier's Office; he is a special assistant in the Pr.emier's Office and so let us hope that he can use his influence on the Premier and on the Premier's colleagues to try to make this secondary processing of fish on Bell Island a reality. Everything that the hon. gentleman said about employers discriminating, the problems with the ferry service, etc., I agree with him, Mr. Speaker. But I want to say this, that when I was representing Bell Island, Mr.

Speaker, day in and day out, as my hon. friend the former member wjo is sitting in the gallery knows, day in and day out I took more abuse and more criticism from the Tories,who ;vere in Opposition at that time,about Bell Island - ~!R. SPEAKE.':< (Simms): Order, please! (" There is generally a·certain aDount of courtesy allowed to members in presentation of petitions,but the rules say that you must direct your comments towards the prayer of the petition.

And I believe we are not really getting co~~ents directed towards the prayer of the petition but perhaps more attuned to the representation of the hon. member when he was a member. :•IR. :.IE.!l.P..Y: SOt•!E HON. ~EMBE!<.S: ~1R. :.lEARY : lvell , maybe the point - Oh, oh. - the point I was trying to make, 2-i::-. s;:;eaker, was that after ten years of a Tory administration 1 9 1 2 •.. .., •.. .. , .. ,

:-ia ~ch 20, lSSl Tape No . 677 so - 2 :•!R . XEARY : i:1 t:lis Province , now '"e fi.nally ;ec a ~e~ition brought into the House to do something for 3ell Island . ':'!ley ha·.·e had ten years to do it and :~ow we get a ?et.ition . ;o;ell,le <:. us ~O?e -:.."' a~: that petiti on will only =a c~e begi~ning o f hel?ir.g and trying to rehabilitate the t~e ~~enployed ov~ on Bell Island . They are not t~e kind ~= people, ~r .

Speake:- - we are, I say we are no1:. the k~nd ~= peopl,;: lvho came ;:o t~e gover nment •.vi th hat in hand !:>egging go·Jer:'lnen;:s :at :a•;ours . l·le bail t t..i'Jis Province; communi ties like Bell Island, 3uch ans, the paper companies built this Prov~nce,!:>e:ore Con:':ederation we were one of the bigges1:. ::om:ributors to t:he Public Treasury in t..'lis Province . And our ::~oney ~;as taken anci s;:>en t in other parts of :::.e\vfo 1md l and, oar money , our tax money . 1-;e buil t hospitals and we built ?~blic builci."'gs and ·..:e pavec roacs and • . .;e put in water and s e•.,c.ge .

We paid .:or i~, .:ne people of Bell Island paid for it, a nd now they a r e en~itled to something in ~e-cu=n . I am r~:erely !:r ying to reinforc e t~e ~ern~er's arg~~e nt , his case, Mr . Speaker . ! 'di Sh him luck . ~! ~e ~eeds ar.y he lp from me to trt to get this fi s :. pr o cessin g ;:>lant establisheC. , I would be very happy to co it. Inci<iencally , I sti ll have 1 81 3 .. , .. , .. .. · ·~

March 26, 1981 Tape No. 678 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: my card in my wallet in the Bell Island Development Association. I am an honoury member of the Bell Island Development Association. MR. K&VCOCK: Rightly so. Rightly so. MR. NEARY: And so, Mr. Speaker, I have no hesitation at all in supporting the prayer of the petition. Maybe in future debates in this House, Mr. Speake~ I may have a few more words about my old home­ town on Bell Island. SOME HON . MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. MORGAN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to speak briefly on the petition from a little more than 2,000 people from Bell Island, and to say to my hon. friend and colleague, the articulate spokesman from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) who just sat down,that thank God that the Newfoundland Government has jurisdiction and responsibility over licencing of fish plants because if it was now in the hands of the federal government, according to the federal minister's policy announced no longer than two days ago before a standing committee of the H~use of Commons, that they would not support this kind of petition.

They would not support any more licencing.of fish plants in Newfoundland. In fact, the federal minister's statement was there are too many fish plants in Newfoundland now. SOME HON. MEMBERS: That is right. MR. MORGAN: So irrespective of the sixty- five to seventy per cent unemployment on Bell Island, which I have no reason to question is a fact, irrespective of what it means to the social and the economic viability of Bell Island, that the federal · government if they had jurisdiction over licencing of fish plants they would not look at or even 1 91 4 .., .,

March 26, 1981 MR. MORGAN: plant for Bell Island. Tape No. 678 consider licening a fish But, Mr. Speaker, fortunately NM - 2 we do have jurisdiction over this aspect of the fisheries, fortunately, and I can say to my han. friend and colleague from Harbour Main-Bell Island (Mr. Doyle) that I a~ sure the Licencing Committee in the Department of Fisheries will give every consideration to the application from two gentlemen, Messrs. Mike Maher and Martin O'Brien, two enterprising Newfoundlanders. I know both of them both connected with the fishing industry.

They have made an application to establish a processi~g plant to process such species as cod, groundfish, salmon, lobster, lump fish, and other species like squid, mackeral, eels, ~og fish, mussels, and I can say that I think automatically they should get the right to process these species like rnackeral, and squid and lump fish roe, and eels and dog fish and mussels. Why? Because they are underutilized.

They are underutilized s?ecies and I think no matter where the application comes from in our Province when we have species not being utilized, that the application should be given every consideration to create jobs and to get these specialty products into the marketplace. In connection wiLh the species of herring and crab, there are some questions on these species because of the quotas on them and the SLOcks itself. But, Mr.

Speaker, I will say that I know the Licencing Committee will give the 9etition and the application, in this case the petition supporting the application, will give it every consideration and even then if the Licencing Committee says no to the application, says no because of the effect it may have on the plant already existing in Pouch Cove and a plan~ already exisLing in Portugal 1 91 5 .. ''I

!-1arch 26, 1981 Tape No . 678 NM - 3 ~1R . t-!ORGAN: cove, and they loo k at both these factors, how these fac~ors whac they mean to the existing plants even i= the Licencing Comm ittee said, "No Messrs . Maher and Messrs . O'Brien you are not going to get that licence ," they have the right to appea~ and righ~ly so. They have a right to appeal . There is a provice - wide appeal committee , chaired again by a prominent Newfoundl ander, Mr. Graham Mercer, and that appeal committee I am sure will again give every conside ration to the application . But from whe .re I sit, Mr. Speaker, I see no reason 1 91 6 .•. •.·I ·~1 '·1

March 26, 1981 Tape No. 579 EL - 1 MR. MORGAN: at this time, I see no reason why we "hould not automat~cally gi~e consideration to the species I mentioned which are under­ utilize species and to get a plant established on Bell Island which will provide jobs for Bell Islanders. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): the Capes. :1R. HANCOCK: Thank you~ Mr.Speaker. Hear, hear! Any further petitions? The bon. member for St. Mary's- Mr. Speaker, thank you, f-1r. Speaker. I hope also to get the support of the Minister of Fisheries (J. Morgan) in this regard because although it is a petition on roads, Mr.

Speaker, there are a large ru~ount of herring and other species of fish being trucked over this se­ ction of dirt road. The petition comes from some 112 residents of the community of Mall Bay and surrounding areas, Mr.Speaker.

The prayer of the petition reads as follows, 'We,the residents of Mall Bay,humbly swear that for our safety and protection the road from Riverhead to t1all Bay be upgraded and paved, that guardrails for protection be erected on Riverhead Road entrance to Mall Bay,and that there is an enormous amount of traffic with the rroverrent of various species of fish fran Mall Bay to Riverhead, that large trucks also move fr_om Mall Bay to other--places and they also have large tru~ks going in there with goods to that small community,Mr.Speaker,and that guardrails be erected at danderous places in Mall Bay.' And I might add, Mr.

Speaker, that there are a number of high embankments in tnat area, that if you went over you are as good as gone, ~x. Speaker. One of the steepest hillsin the Province is also located on that road from Riverhead to Mall Bay, Mr. Speaker. 1 9 1 7 . .. , .,

.... Narch 26, 1981 Tape NO. 679 EL- 2 ~·lR. :iANCOCK: ''Our prayer is that this work be done as quickly as possible to ensure safety of lives and a more ef=icient movement of traffic to and from the area. ''And your petitioners as in duty bound will ever pray.'' of the petition. Mr. Speaker, that is the p~ayer I would like to add a few remarks in support- ing this petition, Mr. Speaker, and I support it wholeheartedly We have some of the most energetic ~eople in Newfoundland living in that small community. And it is only a small community,Mr.S~er, and that is probably why it has been ignored.

The people of that community cannot even hang clothes on the line, Mr. Speaker, because it is one of the few communities remaining in this Province where the community itself has not got pavement. ~r. Speaker, you can go up to the member's district of Fortune­ Hermitage (D. Stewart) where you almost have to bring it in there in coal boats, Mr. Speaker. And almost every community up there is paved and I have several in my district, Mr. Speaker, for political reasons or otherwise paved in the past. have not been There are a number of school children, Mr.

Speaker, who are travelling back and forth from Mall Bay to schools in Riverhead and st. Mary's, Mr. Speaker, that have to travel over this dirt road . In the Wrnter time it is very dangerous,esp~cially with the hill that I mentioned earlier, Mr. Speaker, And the people of Bell Island feel that they have been neglected in the past; well, Mr. Speaker, they should come out to my district and the people out there feel the same way.

The government is not living up to the expectations that the people put into them some two years ago when they gave them a vote of confidence to carry out the wishes of the people for the next three to five years. I wish 1 9 i 8 ''1 .. , ''t ''I ••

£-larch 26, 1981 Tape No. 67~ EL - 3 :4R. EAl'ICOCK : there was an election called tomorrow, Mr. Speaker, to get this Province on the rig!'l.t track again . Once again, Mr . Speaker, I sup ­ port this petition and I hope it does not sliae · I have presented a :lumber of petitions in this hon. House, :.tr. Speaker, since I have been elected and I have yet to see any action being taken on any of them . I hope this one does noc go in the same category as the last, 1-lr . Speaker. I support this petition, ~ . Speaker, and ask to lay it on the Table of the House. :-m.

ROBERTS : ~.:;'1 •• SPE.l>J<ER (Simms) : Straits of Belle Isle. ~ . ROBERTS : :1R. HISCOCK : MR. ROBERTS: ~tr . Speaker . The hon . the member fo~ che Well, Mr . Spea.lcer, in the - The Premier is not here . - conspicious 3bsence of any member on the ot.l-ter side 1-1ishing to speak ,and if there be one who wishes to speak then I will gladly stand aside and let him or her have his or her say, ~ut in the conspicious absence of anybody on the other side who is even interested enough to indicate any sup port for this petition, 1 91 9 .. .,

March 26, 1981 Tape 680 PK - 1 MR. ROBERTS: let me say quite simply for those of us on this side that we do support it. We commend the gentleman for St. Mary's-The Capes (Mr. Hancock) for presenting it. He is o~e of the newer members of this House, but a most vigorous, strongly spoken and well­ spoken man, and he states a very strong case and he states it very well. I do not know, Sir- I am not in the business of bashing the press -out I do not know why the Newfoundland press looks only at St.

John's and at one or two other places in the Province to try to get some indication of what is happening in this ?rovince. HR. HORGAN: Hear, hear! I agree. MR. ROBERTS: Well the Hinister of Fisheries (Mr. Horgan) and I agree on that point. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. ROBERTS: I do not say that by way of bashing the press, but I say it by means of pointing out that there are many places in this Province, including Mall Bay, particularly and significantly, many others were the level of public service being offered is absolutely appalling.

Now that is bad enough, Sir, but in itself that is probably not news because we have put up with these conditions in ·this Province for f~ur-hundred and some years now. What is news is the appalling inequities which this government ~ot only tolerates, but encourages' · and there is a great story to be written by some investigative reporter who simply gets in his car, or going on some of these roads his pick-up or his four­ wheel drive vehicle 1 and goes around a little bit and makes a note of what is being done in any given year by the 1920 'I

~ March 26, 1981 Tape 680 PK - 2 MR. ROBERTS: government in one district and another and comparing the needs that are being met in one district with needs which are not being met in another. And I would say that there are no people in this Province any more needy of assistance with their roads than are the people in Mall Bay, and I say there are no people any more deserving of assistance from the government than are the people of Mall Bay. SOME HON. K&~BERS: Rear, . hear! MR.

ROBERTS: But I will wager my parliamentary pay,and my friend's parliamentary pay,that this government will do nothing this year for the people of Mall Bay. And I will tell you why, Mr. Speaker, I will tell you why I fear this petition will not be honoured and accepted, and that is because the Premier of this Province, a most aoxgant, intellectually self-righteous gentleman,went down into Mount Carnel and other places in the district of St. Mary's­ The Capes- what? a year and a half past and aaid - MR. CARTER: Who are you talking about? MR. ROBERTS: Who am I talking about?

I am talking about the Premier, the same gentleman that the member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) follows so assiduously and so lasciviously. MR. CARTER: (Inaudible). MR. ROBERTS: And I would say, Mr. Speaker, I would say th~t the Premier went down into Mount Carmel and there he made a public speech saying that if the people of that district did not elect a Tory candidate they would not receive any assistance,. I t:link nis phrase -you can correct me, I say to my friend -·.vas he would cut it off at the Salmonier Line if they did not vote Tory. Well,the people in St.

Mary's-The Capes were not to be blackmailed 1 9 2 1 ' 'I .., .. ,

·- 1-tarch 26, 1981 Tape 680 PK - 3 ~1R . ROBERTS : or ~y any of that ilk, they voted as they thought best ~~d they elected the gentla~n for St . t-1a ry' s-The Capes {Mr . Hanco ck} . And there has not been, I will wager,a r.ickel spent in that district since . So I support the petition, Sir. And I say <;o my friend for St. John 's North (Hr . Carter ) that I hope ~at he too will support the petition . I hope he will support it not only in the Hou se but will support it as '.vell in all the other circles of po1•er and influence in which he no longer moves.

And I would say to him, Si=, that he could do far more for his ?rovince by supporting this petition tha n by the sort of interject:ions wh ich he delights in making , and if only he made the.m well, Sir , we would delight in them too . Mr. Speaker, I support the petition . It is a good petition . It is a worthy request. I hope it is granted . MR . NEARY : Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER (Mr • Simms} : Further ~titions? 1922 .. , '1 . .. , ''I '1

March 26, 1981, Tape 681, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: the hon. gentleman's petition. MR. SPEAl<ER (Simms) : No, I want to support Order! There has already been one speaker aside from the member presenting on that side. MR. NEARY: we were allowed two. MR. SPEAKER: Oh, I see. I thought No, there is allowed one speaker from each side aside from the member presenting. MR. NEARY: Nice try. A nice try anyway, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Yes, an excellent try. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. MARSHALL: MR. SPEAKER: Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Motion 1, Mr. Speaker. Motion 1. The hon. the Mr.

Speaker, I have received a message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. MR. SPEAKER: A message from His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. All rise, please! The following message is addressed to the hon. the Minister of Finance: "I, the Lieutenant-Governor of the Province of Newfoundland, transmit estimates of sums required for the public service of the Province for the year ending the 31st. of March, 1982 by way of interim supply and in accordance with the provisions of the British North America Act of 1867, as amended, I recommend these estimates to the House of Assembly. of Finance. 1923 Signed Gordon A.

Winter Lieutenant-Governor." The hon. the Minister .. , ., .. , . .. .. ,

March 26, 1981, Tape 681, Page 2 -- apb DR. COLLINS : Mr. Speaker, I move that his Honour the Lieutenant-Governor's message be referred to the Committee of Supply. On motion, that the House resolve itself into Committee of the Whole on Supply, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN(Butt): Order, please! RESOLUTION That it is expedient to introduce a measure to provide for the granting to Her Majesty for defraying certain expenses of the Public Service for the financial year ending the 31st day of March, 1982, the sum of four hundred and fort y-eight million four hundred thousand dollars ($448,440,000). MR.

CHAIRMAN: Shall the resolution carry? DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Finance. MR. ROBERTS: I would like to see if I have one thing clear. This is the first time we have been in Committee this session, I just want to be sure we all agree on the rules; twenty minutes in each individual's speech and we may speak more than once if we so wish MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: intervening speaker. MR. CARTER: MR. ROBERTS: Right. - provided there is an As long as you are polite. Now, Sir, there was a burp from the member from St. John's North (Mr. Carter), I do not know if it meant anything.

I wish his bringing up, Sir, was equal to his upbringing. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 1 9 2 4 .. , .., .

_... __ ~ March 26, 1981, Tape 681, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman, I just want to be sure these are the rules, you knbw, so there is not misunderstanding. And that we are in the resolution stage; the practice is we debate this extensively at resolution stage, the clock is now running, tick, tick, tick, tick, and that the times comes off the seventy-five hours. When we pass the resolution, as we will within the month- that is the month,thirty days, not this calendar month - tP~ bill will go through: Is that the ground rules, Sir? MR.

CHAIRMAN(Butt): I refer han. members to Standing Order 117, subhead (5): "The Minister introducing the estimates and the member speaking immediately in reply shall be given fifteen minutes. Each other member will have ten minutes". MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour, these are not estimates, Sir. MR. NEARY: No, you are wrong there, you are wrong. MR. ROBERTS: Am I wrong? MR. NEARY: No - MR. ROBERTS: No, I do not think. That is why I want to be sure we all understand rather than have a slanging match. These are-not estimates, Sir, it is Interim Supply. Now, last 1925 .. , ..

-- March 26,1981 Tape No. 682 AH-1 MR. ROBERTS: year you will recall,Your Honour, if I may 1the House got itself in a terrible bind~ ~ou passed all the supply bills and you had to do them all over again. Now let us be sure this time; this is Committee of the Whole. MR. NEARY: Right. MR. ROBERTS: We are on supply. We are considering- in a moment the minister will get the opportunity to introduce a motion for interim supply. I just want to understand what the rules are,Sir,and if I am wrong,fine. But I suggest Sir this is not under Rule 117, but rather \ie are under the

section dealing with committees - I am sorry,the

section dealing with debate. I do not have the number but I had it a moment ago. Thirty-nine, is it? AN HON .MEMBER: Forty nine. MR. ROBERTS: Forty nine. I thank my han. friend. No,that is the one that deals with times. Here we are. I cannot find it offhand. It is here but - MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : I will refer the han. member to Rule 116 subhead 2. "For the purposes of Standing Order 116(1) Committee of Supply includes the Committee of Supply on the main estimates and on interrn supply forming a part of the main estimates." MR. ROBERTS: There is no question about that, Mr.

Chairrnan,because that "is what I already said, that the clock is r~nning ana that is the rule that gets the clock running. All I am saying is that the minister is not introducing estimates,he is introducting a resolution. We are no.t in Cornrni ttee of Supply. We are in Committee of the Whole. MR. NEARY: MR. ROBERTS: Right on. There is no Committe~ of Supply on the nrder Paper, Sir~ We are in Committee of the Whole, the Committee of the Whole House. That is the resolution that the clerk 1926 .., .

March 26,1981 Tape No. 682 AH-2 MR. ROBERTS: just read. I mean,Your Honour, heard it read, to be submitted to a Committee of the Whole House. We are not in Committee of Supply. It is important only in that we must know what the rules are,then we will attempt - MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : As I interpret - HR. ROBE RTS: Hold on now 1 Mr. Chairman. I do not mind being interrupted by Your Honour, but the gentleman from St. John's North (Mr. Carter) is being even more ignorant than normal. Nmv I do not want to have to put up with that tiresome effusion. I am sure Your Honour can bring him to order.

If Your Honour would be good enough,I would be grateful. All I want to say is, tell us w-hat tj.e rules are?And I would suggest to Your Honour that 117 does not apply. The minister is not introducing estimates 1 he is introducing interim supply and we are in Co~~ittee of the Whole, Sir. MR. NEARY: colleague just said - MR. CHAIR..'1AN: MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman,further to what my The hon. the member £or LaPoile. - I think the President of the Council knows what we are talking about here. Last year we had the same hassle. What we are doing,Mr. - ~1R. . ROBERTS: Forty-four is the rule. MR. NEARY: Yes.

What we are doing is ;.;e c.re debating the resolution and we have agreed - this is done through mutual agreement to this side of the House-that this will be considered as second reading - '1R. ROBERTS: Wide open debate. MR. NEARY: - wide open debate. The President of the Council knows that. We had the same debate last year and the President of the Council got up and concurred that we were right,so I would submit you are looking at the wro~g Standing Rule there 1 Mr. Chairman. 1 3 2; .. . "I

- March 26, 1981 Tape No. 683 SD - l MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, you know, the issue comes down as to whether, I think the hon. gentlemen opposite will agree, as to whether this is a Committee of the Whole, in which case if it is Committee of the Whole the rules of the House applyior whether it is Committee of Supply. Now I believe the motion by the hon. the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) - MR. E. ROBERTS: Committee of the Whole. MR. MARSHALL: You know, the motion is 1 and this motion is , Mr.

Chairman, a motion that has been engrafted in our Standing Orders for a long period of time, And it is one that has been taken from the precedents of the House in this particular area I do not say over the past ten years, I s .ay over the past thirty years, if not before. The Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) moves the Lieutenant-Governor's message be referred to the Committee of Supply - MR. ROBERTS: Exactly what I - MR. MARSHALL: - just one second now, you know- to the Committee of Supply. So you are sitting now, Mr.

Chairman, you sit sometimes as Chairman of the Committee of the lfuole and sometimes as Committee of Supply. Since this is a matter of voting money and, you know, I mean, Mr. Chairman, Jour Honour mig~t like to take this under advisement and look at them,~~d there are no set answers, you know, completely and absolutely~ I mean, the government is not going.to fall, the Opposition is not going to disappear and tha4 but we would like to be accurate in the thing.

And, you know, the motion proposed was that you go into Committee of Supply for money,and then it goes on that the House resolves itself -so there is somewhat of an inconsistency here that can - MR. ROBERTS: (Inaudible) 1928 .

---- March 26, 1981 MR. MARSHALL: that we have here are - MR. ROBERTS: MR. MARSHALL : Tape No. 683 SD - 2 Yes, well the wri.tten procedures Where? Wait now, just let me finish now. The han. member, we would like to hear what the han. member says and be interested in what he says. But the motion is then that the House resolves itself - how are you - into Committee of the Whole, ~x. Speaker leaves the Chair and the Chairman of the Committee assumes the Chair of Committee of Supply. Now, you know, that is the procedure that has been set down.

Now it is my understanding, I mean, you are talking about here the matter of voting of money, so I have difficulty in my own mind, rationally and logistically of saying that this would be anything - when you talk about the voting of money you are talking about supplying money to Her Majesty for the purpose of the expenditure of it. So that is the position I would tend to take. And I think for the purpose too of the type of debate we are in, the Committee of Supply rules would be better with the fifteen minutes and the fifteen minutes and the ten minutes for reply.

But it is not what I think is better, it is what the rule is. Maybe Your Honour wishes to look at it because we do not want to make any particular errors on it. MR. ROBERTS: MR. CHAIRMAN . (Butt) : of Belle Isle.- MR. ROBERTS: I would like to say s~mething. The han. the member for the Strait Let us first clear away the under- growth. The so-called procedures are not worth the paper they are written on. They have no standing in the rules of L~is - I do not mean to be offensive to whomever drafted them - they have no standing in the rules.

And I would recall last year, you know, with all deference, if Your Honour will cast his mind back, the entire finance procedure went adrift. And then finally the clerks and law offices and the rest finally 1929 "'

~~ March 26, 1981 Tape No. 683 SD - 3 MR. ROBERTS: admitted - now let us be clear what we are doing, we are not approving money with this resolution. MR. NEARY: Right on. MR. ROBERTS: We are debating a resolution which says that it is expedient to introduce certain estimates . I do not know how I can get it through but let me try: That no money bill - and this goes back to Simon de Montfort's parliament in 1295 which is generally accepted as being the first parliament. I would say to Your Honour, he lost his head MR. CARTER: Are you patronizing? MR. ROBERTS: - yes 1 I am patronizing. To the gentleman from St.

John's North (Mr. Carter), I am patronizing and I would patronize to him the same way I would patronize anybody in his position. I am not allowed to say what his position is because that would be unparliamentary. I would ask him, Sir, to restrain himself or else to void himself outside the House instead of in the House; all he is doing is delaying the Committee. Now what we are doing, Mr. Chairman, right from Simon de Montford's parliament, no money bill can be introduced in this House unless it is first preceded by a resolution. 1930 ''I

March 26, 1981 Tape No. 684 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: N.ow if the Clerks at the T.able do not understand that,let them go back to law school. If the minister does not understand it,let him go back to medical school. We are doing a resolution. It has to be recommended by the Lieutenant-Governor under the British North America Act 1and His Honour has done that, graciously as always. We are not at this stage debating - we are debating - where is the wording of this thing that was passed out? "That it is expedient to introduce a measure," okay?

And furthermore I would say to my friend, the President of the Council (Mr. ~arshall),there is no motion on the Order Paper for a committee of supply. The motion on the Order Paper is that we go into Committee of the Whole. We are in Committee of the Whole. MR. BARRY: MR. ROBERTS: What is all the uproar about? The uproar is because I want to be sure that we understand the rules. I do not want to go on for twenty minutes and have the - the Deputy Speaker (Mr. Butt),I say to my friend the Minister of Mines and Energy (Mr. Barry),felt that we were under rule 117, the Committee on Supply procedures.

We are not; We are under the Committee of the Whole procedures and I know he will agree with me that we are debating a money bill resolution. When we debate the .resolution, when it is accep~ed; as it will be, then,you know, the ~ill in this House it goes through all three stages, one, two, three without further debate. That is probably a convention that has the force of precedent. I do not think conventions can have the force of law, that is a matter our Court of Appeal is having a look at, are they not? But, you know, we are not dealing with a money bill. We are not dealing with any bill.

The motion before the Chair now, Sir,is, as read by our Clerk, "That it is expedient to introduce a measure," or bring in a 1 9 31 ''I

March 26, 1981 Tape No. 634 NM - 2 MR. ROBERTS: resolution. Let us be clear on that and let us know where we are. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Chairman, there are other,I know, the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) has matters to add to it 1 but I just want to add this, you know. I know the motion reads Committee of the Whole, which is the standard one for the purpose of considering resolutions or granting interim supply.

Now what the resolution is is to determine whether or not it is going to be expedient to introduce a bill in this House for the purpose of intro­ ducing interim supply. So it is very difficult for me to understand how,if we are in the process now of considering a bill on supply for the purpose of determining whether this bill will be - we are considering a resolution to determine whether a bill to supply money to the government is to be enacted or not, how we are not in Committee of Supply.

The Committee of the Whole is a definition that- the Committee of the Whole on Supply really because it is a whole committee of the House on supply. Now page 170 . in Beauchesne, "Interim Supply," and I quote this, Mr. Chairman, realizing that particularly ~he procedures on money measures· of the House of Commons do nqt necessarily correspond with ours because we have our own traditions,but I think it is worth~ while referring to; "Interim Supply provides the government with money to meet its obligations during the time before the main estimates are approved.

Interim Supply is normally requested in the first supply period for the first three months of the new fiscal year," which is what this is, "for all departments of government. In addition, Interim Supply is requested for other items in the estimates depending upon the need in each case. The main estimates and the bill based 1932 'l '1 .. , .. ,

.,.........,..,.... . ~ !-la rch 26, 1981 Tape No . 684 NM - 3 MR. MARSHALL: there on are not di spos ed of until the last allotted day for the supply." And paragraph 490, "The motion to concur in Int er im Supply is expre sse d in twelfth s, " well , th at i s just the way they do it . The 1-1hole point is this, Mr . Spea ker , tve are now considering interim supply which is a pa rt of th e expendi tures of th e government and supply for the fis cal year 198~ - 1982 . If the ffouse passes this ,the gove rnm en t will have authority to spend money .

It is a part then.in a sense, it is pa rt of the main estimates . Now , the main est .imate s, th e hqn.gentle.rnan , I think,would not dispute the fact that you are in che Committee of Supply when you are on the main estimates . If this is a 1 9 3 3 '1 ':1 ·~1 .;'1 '"1 ''1

March 26, 1981 Tape No.685 DW - 1 MR. W. ~ARSHALL : part of the main estimates-surely it should be a Committee of Supply. I would rather think - MR. E. ROBERTS: Standing Order 46. MR. W. MARSHALL: Standing Order 46? MR. E. ROBERTS: Standing Order (inaudible). MR. W.

MARSHALL: As I say,I do not think the sun, moon and stars are going to fall one way or the other,but I do think that procedure is important, 'If any motion is made in the House for public aid or a charge upon the people,the consideration de­ bate thereof may not be presently entered upon but shall be ad­ journed until such further day as the House thinks fit to appoint;"­ is that the one the hon. - MR. E. ROBERTS: MR. W . . MARSHALL: Go on and finish it, the next verse. 'and then it shall be referred to a Committee of the Whole House, before any resolution or vote of ' the House do pass thereon'.

I acknowledge that wording, Mr. Chairman,but I would submit that the Committee of the Whole determines really that you sit as a whole Committee of the House. Now I mean, I shall say no more. The point is an important point from a technical point of view,but as far as we are concerned,I do not think the sun, moon and stars are fastened to it. DR. COLLINS: Nlr. Speaker. MR. CHAIRJVI'AN (Butt) : The hon. Minister of Finpn9e. DR. J. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, the parliamentary pro- cedure is rather arcane and wonderful to behold, I am sure to the general public and, I think 1 to ourselves in many respects.

But one point about it,not only do we go by what is in our Standing Rules or in the rules of other Legislatures or in the textbooks 1 but we also go by our own traditions. And I suggest that this is one of the difficulties we are dealing with here. At one time we did have this running in and out from the Chair 1934

March 26, 1981 Tape No. 685 DW - 2 AN HON. ~~ER: (Inaudible). DR. J. COLLINS: If the bon. member opposite would like to listen, he brought uo this point, I think he should have the courtesy to listen to other points of view when this same matter is being discussed. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : Order, please! DR. J. COLLINS: At one time we used to run in and out of the Chair to the Committee and back and forth.And the House in its wisdom elected to short circuit what was a rather foolish procedure.And

whereas it is technically correct to say that a resolution must be put UF-it is referred to a Committee of the Whole House 1 then it is referred back to the Speaker,and then the Committee of Sup~ly is set up - while that is technically correct 1 it was decided that once the Chairman got into the Chair in Committee of the Whole,the committee then deemed itself to be in Committee of Supply. And then we went on and not only con­ sidered the resolution,but we. also considered the measure which was a measure to grant supply to Her Majesty.

So the House sets it own rules and has a right to set its own rules; the House deemed itself having done this to be in Committee of Supply. MR. E. ROBERTS: MR. CHAIRMAN: Belle Isle. MR. E. ROBERTS: Mr. Chairman,a very brief comment. The hon. member for the Strait of The House does set its own rules. The House is master of its own "rules. But the hon. Minister of ~inance (Dr. Collins), ~ithout realizing it, I suggest,has just evoked a very dangerous document. Now he is not the one to tell us about traditions in the House.

There are some around who had been here long before he has and will be here long after he is gone. He is the minister who stands as the man who last year his entire supoly procedure was illegal, and it would have been turned down except we ratified it afterwards in the House. 1935 ..,

-----~-"'~- \'ar;:;:-t 26 , 19i.ll ~a.-oa ~o . 68:l DW-3 .'~~ . ~03 :S R'!'S : But: he ·.vill have to acr.1it -::hat, that ':.:-te enti !:e ;:~roc~:c;.u:~ :vas un la•,;ful and i;r,o:r0"Jer -:.cco:-cina to au= rules . The ?Oint I am t:-yi;- .c ':o r.1a!<e is t..'la.t ~~a ~~les -:.:-a ~he rulas . "lo1,· i = '"e ~;ant ;:o cha:1qe t:hem there ~s -:. ?rocec~:-e =c= chanain~ . DR. COLLINS: '•ie die c~ance t:he:t' .. '\R . ~car:;~~s: '··e have not chanced che!'l on ;::his ~i= 4 The :r~les are hera i~ this Rouse.

Jl.nd ;:::"le ~linister of .. ?i;;ance, iust because he dce s not k=:olt; 'Nhat :::te :::-ules .are~ can :,.arC.l :~ s ~.: age s't t-~at:. ~lie sho:.~:.d c:,a.noe them . I:: :te · .. ;am:s ':o =~ance ~tem, ~~e~e i5 3 ~roceC~a . ~~crt o ~ c~at, Sirf ~he ~~!eke s~ ~av I can think =~ to 6est=ov t:his Mouse, and the one ':;,inc which I k::~c·,.; ':'our Hone~ ··;ou ld ne~<·e::: -oer:ni~ 1 is a negle~t o ~ ~~ iq~ori~~ of th9 =ules .

Yo u k:1ow I Yo·..t:' ~o~cur has ooli;:ical ~i:::::-ences \.-H:h us, anC. •,;e C.o not a.:.,.;avs a.cce!n:. 'iou ::- !:ionou=' s rulings either - '.·le acceo>:: :.:,e m, we co ' '1 net always :gree I•Jit;h t.!iem, o f ccurse not - out the .:act rs:ro ai:-~s You:::- iion uur is dt::t :t· bound, anc I know Your Honou::- w:..Ll ensure c~at the rule s are :a!loweo . "i-:e :nay· dif=er as co- ,..,~.at :.hev ::-.av -..:ea:1 . 3ut ;:~e ~lin iste= o:: ~inance ~r .

Coll :'..ns) vou know - .,,ell, : ·.-;ill deba te 1.;i th hi:n a little later . ?..eallv .it is • =>_\l ::o~ . '1E~t.EE?.. : A ~ ues:io:1 o: ceqree . •. ' 'I ... ~ ~ ·~ ~~...;

March 26, 1981 Tape No. 686 EL - 1 MR. ROBE'RTS: Yes, the minister was incorrect, yes. The minister was incorrect in that the rules are, we are debating a money resolution. We are not debating estimates, Sir, we are debating a resolution that a certain bill - it is no different than the resolution which precedes the Loan and Guarantee Act,which in due course will come in,which precedes the Annual Loan Act that comes in.

If Your Honour finds that we are going into Committee of Supply- and I do not know what Your Honour is going to find - if your Honour finds that,then this House cannot go ahead on supply this day because there is no Committee of Supply on the Order Paper. The motion notice of which was given as set forth in the Order Paper is to move that the House resolve itself in the Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions. That is not the Comm­ ittee on Supply. The Committee on Supply goes on the Order Paper in due course.

Now, I do not want to go and I think the case is crystal clea~but let us be sure what it isithen we will know. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : The han. the minister. DR. COLLINS: Can I just have one quick word? It seems to me that the difference of opinion we have here is whether the House did make that decision previously, i.e. 1 that once the Committee of the Whole sat then deemed it5elf to be in Committee of Supply and ~e go on with supply, you know, that is a question that can be settled by referring to Hansard.

Well, if that is incorrect, well obviously we have to go the way the han. mem­ ber fOr ~ Strait of Belle Isle (E.Roberts) said. I suggest that it is correct,but one might see by looking up Hansard. Now, if that is correct, if that is a fact, I think the difference of opinion now is whether that established a tradition or a precedent 1 9 3 7 ' 'I .. " 'I

March 26, 1981 Tape No. 686 EL - 2 DR. COLLINS: in t.his House,and my proposition is that it did establish a precedent. Once that fact is ver­ ified, the point I am making is that the House then establish that precedent and we go on with that precedent. Now, the hon. member opposite is either questioning that that fact is so or,if he is not questioning that, he is questioning whether the House established a precedent at that point in time,and that is a difference of opinion between us. MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : I thank all hon. members for their submissions.

I think what is a little bit confusing-and, I might add 1to the Chair as well~is whether we are in Co~mittee of Supply or in Committee of the Whole. And of course that is going to determine the amount of time each member will have to speak on this. So if you do not mind,I will just take a very brief recess to clarify that point, come back almost immediately, give a ruling and we will proceed. RECESS MR.

CHAIRMAN (Butt) : I have had a chance to review Hansard of last year, and, while I realize that there is some confusion about this matter, the Chair will certainly ur.dertake now to have some work done on it to clear it up somewhat. But there is a precedent set from last year in which the Chairman ruled at that time that Interim Supply would be de~a~ed under Standing Order 117 (5); that is, the Minister introducing the bill will have 15 minutes, and the member immediately responding would have 15 minutes; each and every other member, 10 minutes. 1938 ''I ... ..,

".) March 26, 1981, Tape 687, Page 1 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: In that case it is wrong. MR. CHA.IRMAN(Butt): That is a precedent that is set and that is - MR. ROBERTS: A precedent does not overrule the rules. MR. CHAIRMAN: My interpret<'.tion right now, and having that precedent, that is the rules we will follow. MR. ROBERTS: But, Your Honour, precedent does not overrule the rules. The rules are clear. MR. CHAIRMAN: I have made a ruling . MR. ROBERTS: Your Honour, all I can do is appeal it. I am reluctant to, but I feel so strongly it is wro~g, supported by my friend from Grand Bank (Mr.

Thoms), I move we appeal the ruling of the Chair. MR. NEARY: Right on! MR. CHAIRMAN: As vou wish. MR. ROBERTS: No. Well, the rules are the only protection that anybody in this House has. Precedents do not overrule the rules. MR. CHAIRMAN: It is moved and seconded that the Committee rise to have the Chairman's decision appealed. MR. ROBER'!S : It does not need to be moved and seconded, Your Honour, Your Honour automatically rises the Committee - automatically. MR. SPEAKER(Simms): Conception Bay South. MR. CHAIRMAn: The hon.the member for Mr.

Speaker, my ruling with regard to the procedure we should follow in debating Interim Supply has been challenged by the hon.the member for the Strait of Belle Isle(Mr. Roberts), seconded by the han. the member for Grand Bank(Mr. Thoms). 1939 . .. 'I

~ .:Yu. March 26, 1981, Tape 687, Page 2 -- apb MR. SPEAKER ( Sirmns l : My understanding of the procedure, then, is that the ruling by the Chair during Committee stage has been appealed to the Speaker as the references provide for. for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR • . ROBERTS: MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the member Your Honour - If I may, before I recognize the hon. member, I would like to say that I have heard a fair amount of the debate from the precincts of the House in my office and I do not believe it is necessary to have a lot of debate, but I would like to hear a further point, perhaps, from each side. the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: The han. the member for Your Honour,I was going to say that my understanding is there can be no debate on the question of a ruling. The Chairman made a ruling which I challenged; I do not think it is in .order for any cormnents to be made. MR.

MARSHALL: That is correct. MR. ROBERTS: I am sorrv? MR. MARSHALL: That is correct, Mr. Speaker. I think the procedure is there is n~ debate MR. ROBERTS: That is right. MR. MARSHALL: - and what Your Honour does, Your Honour sa ys that the motion is that the - MR. ROBERTS: Ruling be upheld. MR. MARSHALL: - ruling of the Chairman of Committee be upheld. It is put to a vote without debate. MR. ROBERTS: It is not often my friend from St. John's East(Mr. Marshall) and I agree, hut we do agree on that. There is no procedure for that. 1 9 4 0 'I .,

March 26, 1981, Tape 687 Page 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: Now, what I was going to say, quite simply, Your Honour, is that in view of the importance of this I wonder if it might be permissible for the matter to stand and let us go on back to Committee. I do not care if we agree to do it for ten minutes, but the point, as Your Honour picked it u-::- 0utside, is that whether the rules of this House, which, there is a submission, are clear on the point, have, apparently been altered by some precedent and I do not think that is the sort of thing that should be dealt with lightly.

All I am suggesting is that Your Honour might wish to have overnight on it and perhaps even invite comment. Your Honour is at liberty to do that. T.'"lere is no debate. You know, the motion is simply tha~ the appeal be upheld. It will be done on a partisan vote, the government will have its way, fair enough! But we are talking about more than the government having its way, Sir, we are talking about a matter going to the very heart of the operation of this House. MR. MARSHALL: I think the han. Chairman - MR.. SPEAKER: of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: .. The han. the President -Mr. Spea~er, 1 9 41 '1 '·1

March 26, 1981 Tape No. 688 AH - l .MR. MARSHALL: here we are, debating. I think the hon. Chairman of the Committee had already indicated when he gave his ruling that it was something the Chair was going· to take under advisement in any event, and was going to, you know, research a bit more. But, Mr. Speaker, at the present stage where we are now, is that the Chairman of Committee's ruling has been appealed, and I think the motion has to go now and what the Chair does afterwards-the Chair will have to, I know, consult the various authorities. MR.

SPEAKER(Simms): That being the case, and obviously that is understood by everybody in the House, the ruling has been appealed. Shall the ruling of the Chair be uphelded? Those in favour, 'Aye'? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER: SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER: leave the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN(Butt): DR. COLLINS: Aye.' Contrary, 'Nay'? Nay. Carried. The motion is that I do now Committee of Supply. The bon. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Chairman, I think it is well underStood now that we are debating a resolution and the resolution refers to a measure. It says it is expedient to introduce a measure.

Now all hon. members have before them the document which that word refers to. The measure in effect is the bill, Bill 60, which is entitled "An Act For Granting To Her Majesty Certain Sums Of Money For Defraying Certain Expenses Of The Public Service For The Financial Year Ending The Thirty-First Day Of March One Thousand Nine Hundred And Eighty-Two And For Other Purposes Relating To The Public Service." This particular bill is an Interim Supply Bill.

In other words, it is money that will be voted for the upcoming fiscal year and therefore this bill, if it is accepted by the House and passed by the House, 1942 ''I .,

~arch 26,1981 Tape No. 688 AH-2 DR. COLLINS: will come into affect on the first day of the new fiscal year, that is April 1,1981. And the intent and the effect of the bill if it is accepted is to allow government to fund its programmes and activities for an interim period until the'Budget and the estimates that flow from the Budget will come into affect sometime later in the year and fund government's operations for the whole twelve months of the new fiscal year.

So this Interim Supply Bill is designed to get us over that intervening period which occurs from the end of this fiscal year until the final acceptance by the House of the main estimates. lve are predicting that that might be as long as three months,so we are asking the Committee and subsequently the House to accept this Interim Supply Bill for a three month period. Now attached to the bill itself is a

schedule which gives the hean of expenditure for the various departments and arms of government and gives an amount of money which we are requesting for each of these departments and arms of the government for this three month period, that is,until the end of June. The total amount is in the aggregate of $448,400,000 and that ,as I mentioned, applies for the three month period.

Hon. members may recall that last year we asked for authority to spend on an interim basis just under $300 million, it >vas $299,950,000, but that was for a two month period and on this occasion we are aski~g for a three month period because we anticipate that it might be until the end of June before we can be assured that the main estimates as passed.

Now the Interim Supply request is essentially for ongoing expenditures, that is,expenditures which apply to progr~~es and activities which are already in place and these need to be funded on a continuing basis or obviously the people of this Province would not be well served. 1 c"-:: \._ I..J ., '1

March 26, 1981, Tape 689, Page 1 -- apb DR. COLLI-NS: That is the usual thrust of the Interim Supply Bill and that is the main thrust in this Supply Bill. But the administration is permitted to also fund a number of new projects on Interim Supply as long as this is clearly brought to the attention of the Committee, and subsequently to the House, and we have also done that in this Interim Supply Bill. And I might mention these now: These are the new programmes which are not ongoing and which are not committed. These are ne~ uncommitted programmes.

In-the Department of Transportation, under the heading entitled IrnprovP.ment and Construction, we are requesting an additional $8million. There are $5,400,000 already committed. We do have the authority of the House from previously and those, therefore, are ongoing commitments. This will be $8 million of new commitments that we are requesting be funded for this interim period. Similarly, under the heading entitled Bridges, we are asking for an additional $500,000. There are already commitments in place for $1,200,000. We are asking for new commitments to be permitted to the sum of $500,000.

In the sam~ department 1 under the heading entitled Machinery, we are asking for new commitments to the extent of $3 million. So that is in Transportation, those three types of new commitment. In the Department of Rural, Northern and Agricultural Development ,there are also a number of new projects that we are requesting funding for. In total they amount to $1 million and they are the headings of Refrigeration, Depot Furnishings and Equiprn .ent, and Depot Buildings. I might mention, Mr. Chairman, that those commitments in the Department of 1944 .... .. ,

March 26, 1981, Tape 689, Page 2 DR. C01LJ:~S : Rural, Northern and Agricultural Develpment are all contingent on the signing of the Native People's Agreement. If that agreement is not signed in the interim period, between now and the end of June, of course, that money will not be spent. But if that agreement is signed,it would be important to get on with those particular projects as soon as possible. There will be cost sharing if that agreement is signed so that this will be the expenditure-­ $1 million. There will be countervailing revenues ::oming in. MR. NEARY: DR.

COLLINS: ~900,000 coming back. ~o, not $900,000; I think they are usually about 70 per cent, little bit. they vary a MR. NE.II.RY: Ninety/ten in communities that are 90 per cent Indian or Eskimo. DR. COLLINS: No, I think it is 75/25, and in the other ones I think it it 60/40. I think it works out at about 70 per cent on the average. MR. NEARY: Ninety/ten. DR. COLLINS: So that is all I wish to say at this time, Mr. Chairman. I do have details available for hon. members if any particular heading is questioned, or any further information is required.

And I would now move that this resolution be accepted and that the bill subsequent thereto be sent back to the Rouse. c-!R. GIAIRl-L;l,N (Butt) : for Lapoile. ~ .... . ·: The hon. the member ' ' I ' 'I ' 'I ..,

.1-!arch 26, 1981 Ta?e No. 690 EL - l ~IR. ~JEARY: ;•!r. Chairman, first of all I ;vould like to say that our Finance critic, the mell'ber for the Strait of Belle Isle (E. Roberts), is presently in the Speaker's Office discussing this very serious ruling, this very serious precedent that has been set in the House. Arl.d hon. menbers will recall last year we had a visious row over the same thing and I believe we appealed the Speaker's ruling then, I am not quite sure. But anyway .it does not make any diff­ erence whether we did or we did not 1 we were overruled and the majority carried.~nd Mr.

Chairman, the only thing I can say is that I hope the matter is rectified because othenvise. ·.vith the attitude of the President of the Council (I'L Marsh­ all), the atcitude that he has had so far of trying to muzzle the Opposition, trying to muzzle debate, restrict debate in this House, that if the hon. gentleman keeps it up he is going ':c c'=stro-· t'1e House of Assemblv-. 2'-!R. HA..."!COCK: 1-lR. "lEARY: Destroy democracy. Obviously the government does not see any need for t'· ~ Rouse and the only reason ~~e House is here, Mr.

Chairman, I might say, the only reason it is here is to pass estimates, to debate and pass estimates_ And the Pres­ ident of the Council, che government a couple of years ago moved the estimates off the floor of the House altogether. And this session they are restricting debate, Th~y ~alled the Throne Speech two days a week to try to stop any momentum from the Oppcsiciori. New, Mr. Chairman, we feel that the government should not have interim supply because they are not competent to handle chis amount of money. $448 million,! :igure,is about - what? - one third of the Budget, one third. DR.

COLLI:~s: It is for a three month period. ''I .. , .. , '1 ..

March 26, 1981 MR. NEARY: F.oughlv one third. DR. COLLINS: Tape No. - 690 EL - 2 It is one third of the Budget. It is for three months. MR. N~~Y: For three months. Obviously, Mr. Chairman, we are going to have a late Budget. It would appear from the Interim Supply Bill that we are going to have a late Budget. We are already told that the construction industry is chaotic, in chaos. The construction industry this year is going to be a disaster. MR. HANCOCK: declare bankruptcy, MR. NEARY: I know them now who are going to right now.

My hon. friend to my right here just reminded me that an awful lot of companies have gone bankrupt. I look at the Dunn and Brad report every week in this Province, companies are going bankrupt every day. I would predict,Mr. Chairman, that this will be a record year for bankruptcies in this Province. 1981 \·Till be a record year. This year will surpass 1980 because,Mr.

Chairman, as hon. members know the economy of this Province depends largely on government spending and because of lack of government spending in the last couple of years, not only do we have record unemployment in Newfound- land, the construction workers out of jobs, but we have com- panies that are being forced into bankruptcy. And I would submit/ Mr. Chairman, that it is going to get worse. Mr. Chairman, it is going to get worse and therefore I submit, Mr. Chairman, that this govern­ ment is not fit to have interim .supply.

I think the right thing for the government to do, the honourable and decent thing for them to do,is to not ask for interim supply but for the Premier of this Province to go down to the Lieutenant-Governor; hand in his resignation and have a general election. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! 1947 .. , "I

March 26, 1981 Tape 691 PK - 1 MR. NEAJ~Y: That would be the decent and honourable thing to do, Mr. Chairman. They are not fit to have a half a billion dollars, almost $500 million. And I would also further submit, Mr. Chairman, that the reason we are going to have a late Budget is because of the confrontation that the Premier and his ministers have with Ottawa.

They have not been able to determine yet how much money we are going to get for DREE agreements in this Province, how much money we are going to get for DREE spending, for DREE roads in this Province, all because of the silly,foolish, childish behaviour of the Premier of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: There is only one agreement right now ready to be signed and that is the Coastal Labrador agreement. Not one other agreement. Mr.

Pepin was down here the other day, his second trip in less than three months, his second trip to Newfoundland, plus the fact that he had sent his officials down on numerous occasions, seven or eight occasions, and has out of this government~ not been able to get any sense They have not been able to tell the Government of Canada where their priorities lie. The meeting the other day was a complete waste o~ time. The Minister of Transportation (Mr. Brett) in this Province had nothing to offer. There are no negotiations with the Government of Canada. There are no agreements.

I challenged the Premier yesterday in the House to produce an agreement that he told the whole world and told the House, the news media, and I presume the people of Newfoundland through the media,that the Trans-Labrador agreement was ready to 1948 .. , .. , .

March 26, 1981 Tape 691 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: be signed, Immediately when he made that statement I went out and I called DREE and DREE said there is no aareement. l-tR. MARSHALL: MR. NEARY: is no agreement. is a wish list. AN HON. MEMBER: There is a proposal. There is a proposal, but there A proposal, a proposal. I mean there (Inaudible) agreement. MR. NEARY: There is the Minister of Transportation's (Mr. Brett) wish list. And that is all they have in Ottawa, a wish list with about ten or a dozen items on the list. MR. MARSHALL: Not so. MR. NEARY: And there have been no negotiations.

I checked again this morning with Ottawa. There have been no negotiations on the Trans-Canada Highway, on the Trans­ Labrador Highway. And I have to say this, Mr. Chairman, as a result of the negligence of this government,the incompetence, and the ineptness of this government,that there will be no money included in the Federal Budget for the Trans-Canada Highway this year. MR. MOORES: Now. Now. MR. NEARY: Mr. Pepin came the other day and said 'Tell us, tell us Mr. Minister, tell us Mr. Provincial Government where your priorities are and then I will go back to Ottawa and we wi.ll allocate the funds.' AN HON.

MEMBER: Your time is up. MR. THOMS: Oh, you are in a good seat there now. MR. NEARY: The Government of Canada have said to the· Provincial Government we will pay 50-50, 50-50 on a cost-shared programme to upgrade the Trans-Canada Highway. And this government have not even responded. They have not thought it worth their while to tell the Government of 1949 ''I .. , . ~. .. ,

~larch 26, 1981 Tape 691 PK - 3 :>Ltt. NEARY: Canada wheilie= or not they wanted a 50-SO deal, which is better than ~othing . And so , Mr. Chairman, these are the real reasons why we are going to have a late Budget . And t.."'is is why I say that this government is not fit to ha ve this half billion dollars they are asking for. It is a ge nera l election we should be having. And , Mr. Chairma.'l , with all the impropriety th at has been brought out in the last :ew days, 1950 ''l .. .. ,

... :,rar.:::h 26, 1981 Tape ~lo. 119 2 IB-1 .'-!R. ~;EA"~: ~he incomoetence of ~inisters, ministers signing oetitior.s denouncing government oolicy,ministers abusing their ~inisterial authority, Mr. Chairman, and nothing done about it,the ?remier just brushing it aside, bringing in another :'hnisterial Statement saying, 'Oh, yes ,·.~e are qoing to !:orcrive him :or this no11. \ile forqave the :~inister of Fisheries ( :·1r. '"!organ) I.Jhen he •,1as '1i:lister of '":t·ansportation. lNe have :orqiven hi~.' ."lade a statement saying 1 'Yes 1 1ve •.vi11 forg-ive l'.ii'l. We will ~orgive the Minister of ~anpower.

We will forgive the '1inister of Transportation but we will ~ake a statement that we are not acing to tolerate it in the future.' That is the new strategy of the Premier. Well,there was a qent~eman out there ·.vho thnuaht this matter \vas important enough to 1vrite a poem 1•1 1 about it and he sent me the ooem. I do not know who the author is. \1r. Chairman, I have to read the poem. It is called The Gang Of Four, author unknown. We thought it was only China who could claim a aang of four/ But to our great amazement Newfoundland has four.

I There is ,Terr--,· Dinn and Charlie Brett/ They are ministers in the Cabinet/ Dr. Paddy and Dr. Hugh /they are also mixed U<J in it too/ The oetition the" signed for the .. , CCT/ was to tell the Premier they disagree /•vi th government oolicy that is unfair/ to workers who are on strike out there/ Dr.

Collins ~ho is in ?inance;~avs h~ cannot take_a chance/ To give them :oore than eight per cent/for ""ear of causing discontent' "'ith ,.;orkers who got a raise in ;:.ay/ Of ei crht oer cent the ot'ler dav/ And so we have the gang of four /who •.vant to (live the 'A'Orkers more/ Oh •.vhat a government have tve / that cannot find reason to agree/ to settle strikes and give men work/ but .. , would instead its duty shirk/ Its time we come to realize/that they are not men but only boys/ in whose ~ands now rest our fate/ Oh -oitv nm.; :ny shin of state. SO!AE EON. '!E' 1B:O:HS : Hear, hear~ 'AR. NEA.R. Y : Mr .

Chair man. the auth or of that poe~ ne ver stateC. t~u.er >.•JorCs in :~is ~i.=e. ~ h e ? r c 't~ince is in tr..e 1 '" - .. ,

March 26, 1981 I!-1R. ~EARY: 1"'"R. WARREN: MR. NEARY: Tape No. 692 IB-2 hands of a group of schoolboys. The Premier acted like it today.sure . And the Premier is beginning to act like it in the House,as my hon. friend reminded me. He now steps outside of his desk, lectures the House like a school teacher. He cannot forget his old profession. MR. CARTER: ~R. NEARY: tfuat is wrong with being a teacher? There is nothing wrong with it except the Premier 1 when he was teaching, was never in a position of authority. He never had to fire anybody. That is why he cannot fire the Minister of Manpower (Mr.

Dinn) and the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Brett). MR. WARREN: That lvill be going though, they will be going. MR. NEARY: But they will be going in due course. But, Mr. Chairman, another reason why the government should not have this interim supply is because of the labour trouble and strife that they havecaused in this Province and because of the policy of strike breaking that they are pursuing. No doubt in this Interim Supply Bill, Mr. Chairman, is some money for the College of Trades and Technology. M..R. CHAIRMAN (BUTT): ·Order, please!

I have to interrupt the hon. member for just a minute while the Speaker comes in to announce the Late Show. MR. NEARY: Oh. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER (SIMMS): It being five o'clock I can now inform the House that I have received notice of two motions for debate at five-thir~y when a motion to adjourn will be deemed to be before the House. Notice first of all was given by the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) arising out of a question asked the hon. the Premier and the subject matter is ministers' conflict of interest. And the second notice is given by the hon. member for Grand Bank (Mr.

Thoms) arising out of a question 1952 ,_,, "I .,

.,. March 26, 1981 Tape No. 692 IB-3 ~~R. SPEAKER (SI~1S): asked the hon. Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) and the subject matter is the St. La1qrence bait holding de:<_Jot. -. 1953 "• .., ' 'I

March 2~, 1981 M.R. CHAIR.J.'1AN (BUTT) : MR. NEARY : Tape·No. 693 GS-1 The hen. member for LaPoile. I oresume I can start my fifteen minutes over again, Mr. Chairman. MR. THOMS: MR. NEARY: AN HON . MEJVI..BER: MR. NEA~Y: MR. BA...~RY: (inaudible). MR. NEARY: MR. THOMS: You are already there, Sir. Oh, yes, I think so. No. Oh, yes. The hon. gentleman v1as interrupted I beg your pardon? V<7ai t until the next election is called, we will shew you (inaudible). MR. NEARY: Check the rules. Anyway, we feel that this government, Mr. Chairman, is on a disaster course.

V<le feel that their confrontation politics have done Newfound­ land an awful lot of damage in the last couple of years. We feel that their lack of dialogue, their lack of liaison with the Government of Canada has cost us literally millions of dollars, left in Ottawa, that Ottawa wants to spend in this Province and they cannot get the co-operation of the orovincial government. The Premier's attitude towards Confederation is making an awful lot of people in Newfoundland nervous. As a matter of fact, it is making people right across Canada nervous.

The Premier's statements, for instance, that he made in Montreal about takinq Newfoundland out of Confederation - 'Newfoundland should hold·a referendum to consider separating from Canada' - made an awful lot of people in this Province nervous. I only wish that he would follow through with his referendum, Mr. Chairman, and let us put it to a vote. Now, I have fifteen minutes. I will have any number of ten minute S?eeches that I want to make.

I am only just getting wanned up but before I take my seat I still have three minutes. ~ want to talk about the great lie, the qreat lie that is being oushed in this House and pushed in this Province, and I am amazed, Mr. Chairman, amazed 1954 .., ''I .. , 'I

March 26, 1981 Tape No. 693 GS - 2 MR. NEAR:!': that the editorial writers in this Province have not exposed this great lie, this great deceit that we see day in and day out in this hon. House about a corridor across the Province of Quebec to transmit Newfoundland hydro power to the State of New York. Now, the Premier of the Province wrote the Prime ~-1inister of .. , Canada on two or three occasions about this matter. My God, Mr.

Chairman, it would make you sick to your stomach when you hear members get up, like we heard yesterday, and say that the Prime Minister and the Government of Canada have ignored this matter. Well, let us see how much they have ignored it.

On October the 20th - this is from the Prime Minister's office- the Prime Minister wrote the Premier of this Province, 'Jctober the 20th, 1980, My dear Premier: ' 'I This is in response to your letter of September the 24th, 1980, in which you reiterated your concerns about the federal government's willingness to use its constitutional authority to ensure the passage of Newfoundland electricity/ energy through Quebec. In my letter of July the 29th, 1980,' the Prime t1inister says, 'to you I indicated' - listen to this, Mr.

Chairman, 'I indicated that the federal government stood ready to act if it could be clearly demonstrated that .. , the exportation of electricity from Newfoundland was, in fact, being prevented by Quebec.' MR. BARRY: We have shmm him that. :.lR. NEARY: You showed who that? M_R., BARRY: We have shown the Prime ~inister. ~!R. NEARY: I have it here what you showed the Prime Minister, the letter from the Premier - SOME HON. ME~ffiERS: Oh, oh! .. MR. NEARY: He says to the Premier of this Province - SOHE HON. MEl'-ffiERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRW!.li_N (Butt) Order, please! 1QC,C. io,.J,...., " I

March 26, 1981 SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. CHAIRMAN (Butt) : seconds left. MR. NEARY: Tape No. 693 GS - 3 Oh, oh! Order, please! Order, please! The hon. member has about thirty Well, I have thirty seconds to read the last part of this paragraph and I will read the whole letter and the Premier's letters when I get up later on, 'This 1956 .. , ' 'I .. ' 'I

March 26, 1981 Tape No. 694 EL - 1 ~1R. NEARY: is,as you will recall) the Prime Minister says to the Premier, 'T.his is, as you will re- call also the essence of my commen~ to you when we dis- cussed the matter at the recent Conference of First Ministers , on the Constitution.' Now, does that sound like a government that is \'lilling to sit idly by and not help Newfoundland get a corridor across the Province of Quebec? MR. CHAIRMAN(Butt): Order, please! The han. member's time has expired. The bon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, members on each side can get up any number of times.

I could wait until all members have spoken and give any information that is required, but the hon. member who just sat did not ask for any inform- ation. He made a number of statements and I suppose it is r~­ ed of me to make some answe~ to them. AN HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! DR. COLLINS: The first point he brought out was about the difficulty we just ran through,and that he wanted to get this clarified so that the House would proceed in an orderly fashion. Well, wha~ we have just gone through is not so much to do with how the House works. it is just really a nit picking