Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 30A (31st Legislature, 2nd Session)

31-2-30a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

ISSN 0542 - 5492 Second Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Vol. XXVI No. 30A 26 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker 2:30 p.m.Thursday, April 27' H~78 Printed by P.N. Crosbie - Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, April 27' 1978 Time: 2:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Russell): I should like to draw the attention of the members to the gallery where we have four members of the Community Family Centre accompanied by Mr. Bal. This centre is in the const ituency of the Honourable Member for Point Douglas . We have 30 students of Grade 9 standing from Lorette Colleg iate under the direction of Mr. Goulet. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Springf ield .

We have 10 students of Grade 12 standing from Red River Community College . These students are under the direction of Miss Karen Bruce . This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Logan . On behalf of all the members , we welcome you here today . PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Mr. Speaker , I beg to present the petition of Brandon General Hospital Praying for the passing of

An Act to amend

An Act to incorporate the Brandon General Hosp ital. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS MR. CLERK: The petition of St. John 's-Ravenscourt School , Praying for the passing of

An Act to amend

An Act to incorporate St. John 's-Ravenscourt School. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees .. . M inisterial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . Notices of Motion .. . Introduction of Bills . ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. EDWARD SCHREYER (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker , in the absence of the First Minister and while waiting his possible attendance here , I should like to pose a question in the interim to the Minister of Education . I understand that he is responsible for liaison with Ottawa with respect to immigration matters .

I would like to ask him , given the fact that Parliament has passed statute law with respect to immigration law changes, and that it is now provided in statute for formal liaison and consultative process, statutory , with the provinces , can the Minister indicate if, in fact, there is confirmation that they are intending to proceed that way and are in fact commencing to do so, and is he actively engaged in that? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education . HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Mr.

Speaker , I can assure the Leader of the Opposition, that there have been some discussions to that extent taking place , and they will continue to be taking place. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. SCHREYER: That being so then , Mr. Speaker , may I ask the Minister of Education if he will tell us now , or if he is not in a pos ition to tell us now , if he will undertake to table material which will indicate the policy attitude with respect to immigration law that the government of the Province of Manitoba would like to see changed and implemented? MR. COSENS: Mr.

Speaker , that policy is being developed coincident with the negotiation. I think it would be premature to table it at this time until it has been firmed-up . MR. SCHREYER: a Mr. Speaker ,supplementary . Now that the provinces are given a statutory basis in Federal Statute Law for a formal involvment in immigration law and procedures, would the Minister agree that it would be desirable then for the province to be in a position to exercise this function responsibly , rather than on an ad hoc , as we go along in negotiations , play-it-by-ear basis. MR. COSENS: Mr.

Speaker , I certainly agree that a firm policy is something we require , and I would 1341

Thursday, April 27' 1978 hope that this will be forthcoming shortly . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker , I would like to direct a question to the House Leader in the absence of the First Minister. Can the House Leader confirm as to whether or not he has been requested , or the government has been requested, by the Federal Conservative candidates to alter the form of administration of this province by the Conservative administration in order to make it easier for those people to get some support from the people of this province? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader . HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Speaker , I can neither confirm nor deny that suggestion . MR. GREEN: I gather that it may be true . I direct a question , Mr. Speaker , to the Minister of Highways. Can the Minister of Highways tell me whether it is a fact that , unnoticed to the media , he delivered to the Town of Churchill badly needed funds to the extent of some $1 million? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works . HON. HARRY J. ENNS (lakeside) : Mr. Speaker , yes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN: Mr.

Speaker , can the Honourable Minister tell me whether those funds were included in the Estimates of departmental spending that are now before the House? MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker , I suspect I'll have to ask the Honourable Mmembe r for St. Johns . MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker , I would like to know , Mr. Speaker , from the government, and I ask this quite seriously , as to whether the $1 million to Churchill is included in the printed departmental Estimates totalling some one billion , six hundred and some odd million dollars, which are now being considered by the House . MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works. MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Speaker, the honourable member deserves a full and complete answer .

I suppose one of the last acts taken by the previous administration sitting in Cabinet on October 19, that passed an Order-in-Council indicating that the incoming Minister of Public Works would pick up the tab , so as to speak, for the horrendously expensive operating costs to maintain the complex at Churchill , which were estimated as late as November of 1976 to be some $225,000, well within the means and the capability of the LGD of Churchill to carry in their normal tax load , but in fact have within one short year of full operation risen to a million plus .

It is not correct that I delivered a million dollars to Churchill on that occasion ; I don 't think the Honourable Member for Inkster expected me to do that. What I did indicate to the mayor and the council of Churchill , that we would honour that commitment made by the previous Cabinet and administration in helping the community of Churchill to maintain and operate and keep the facility open . We have not budgeted for the item because I am not at all satisfied at this particular moment that the brunt , or the totality of that amount , should be borne by Manitoba taxpayers.

I believe that the senior Federal Government , which was a senior partner in this enterprise , to the - I believe the percentage rating of 55-45 or in that area - and I believe the Federal Government has certainly as great a responsibility as does the Provincial Government in terms of almost deliberately moving staff and people out of the community of Churchill which makes the whole viability of that complex so much more out of line in terms of the numbers of people that it serves, the number of taxpayers in Churchill , etc .

So what I have asked , in conjunction with the Honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs to arrange , and we will as soon as time permits , with our federal counterparts , to pursue as aggressively as we can , hopefully some cost -sharing arrangements that have to do with this sum of money that's been mentioned . Therefore , Mr. Speaker , it was difficult to codify or put a precise sum in the Estimates ; we do not know the precise sum to put in.

What we agreed, and what we told the Town Council of Churchill, is that the Provincial Government would pay the monthly bills which are coming in at- and I would have to check that- at 50 or 60 thousand dollars a month , to keep the centre in Churchill operating . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster . MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker , lest there be any misunderstandin~ . I have no criticism at all of the expenditure or how the Minister is dealing with it, but would the Mmister agree that if he has the same 1342

Thursday, April 27' 1978 success with regard to his negotiations with the Federal Government as we had with respect to them picking up their proper share of the assessment , that we will have to add another million dollars to this year's Estimates, making $6 million in about eight days- it's going about a million a day.? MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker , I cannot agree to that. It is my belief that that lik ely is the case, but in the absence of the Minister of Finance , I would have to take that question as notice . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker , the Mini ster of Public Works may find it easier to answer me or wish to take it as notice . Can the Minister indicate if he is aware that with respect to the negot iations , and the spirit of the negotiations as between Ottawa and Manitoba , with respect to the cost sharing of both the construction and the maintenance of the Churchill Centre , that there were undertakings from the late Honourable Arthur Laing with respect to ways and means of the sharing of operating deficits once they became more concretely known.

Can the Minister indicate if he will undertake to pursue this personally with the Federal authorities since it seems to require direct personal involvement at that level. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I am happy to answe r that question and indicate to him as I believe I had, that that is precisely the course of action that I, in concert with the Honourab le Minister of Municipal Affairs, am taking . And I go one step further, Mr. Speaker, and I do this with a great deal of sincerity that I invite the good offices of the Leader of the Opposition, to be of whatever assistance he can in pursuing this matter in two ways.

Firstly , perhaps in terms of the fact that he was directly involved, or his government was directly involved , in some of the initial and the actual negotiations that he now just referred to, and if indeed there are some gaps in our information that need filling in, I would like to feel free and I see by his nodding of approval that I can reach out to the Leader of the Opposition for whatever information he may have that will be helpful in this pursuit because it is in the interest of Manitoba and in the interest of Manitoba taxpayers generally , and of course specifically in the interests of the community of Churchill that we do this .

MR. SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker , this may be unorthodox , it may even be unprecedented, I don't know , but to keep within the rules , Sir, may I ask the Minister of Public Works if he will accept it as notice of intent that perhaps there are no other instances such as this, but in this particular instance, would he take it as notice of intent that I would be most happy to assist my honourable friend , the Minister of Public Works in direct concrete representations, because I am satisfied that the spirit and intent of the agreement between Ottawa and Manitoba as determined by the late Honourable Arthur Laing is now being deviated from , and I am in a position to help.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Meer for Elmwood . MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. Speaker , I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Health . Has he or his senior officials received a copy of the recent report on Mount Carmel Clinic? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L.R.(Bud) SHERMAN(Fort Garry): Yes, Mr. Speaker . I have received a copy personally . MR. DOERN: Could I ask the Minister then whether he is planning to investigate or examine the operations of the present Mount Carmel Clinic in view of the criticisms made in the recent report. MR.

SHERMAN: Well , the situation could well lead to that , Mr. Speaker, and I assure my honourable friend that if such action proves to be justified and warranted that that kind of a review will be undertaken. I'm waiting, however, to receive some reaction and some direction from the Board . I haven't received that yet. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourabie Member for Elmwood . MR.

DOERN: I would ask the Minister in conclusion whether he would also consider a personal tour of the facilities such as he made at Snow Lake, and in particular I would like to ask him whether, since some of the problems of the clinic may be related to the present physical facilities and arrangements, would he also consider lifting the freeze on the construction of a new Mount Carmel Clinic. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker , in answer to the first part of my honourable friend's question, I did make a visit to Mount Carmel Clinic two weeks ago and I did have an extensive and comprehensive tour of the facilities, including the child day-care facilities there. In answer to the second part of his question I can assure him that I was subject to a great many entreaties while I was there to do precisely what he is suggesting the government should consider doing . I have that question under review and in mind. I hope to be able to do my best, Mr. Speaker, but I can't give my honourable friend any assurance at this juncture.

I recognize it as an important subject area though. 1343

Thursday, April 27' 1978 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. SCHREYER: Well , Mr. Speaker , now that the Minister of Industry is here, the Minister of Tourism and Recreation , rather- I suppose he is exactly the right man to ask the following .

Given that there has been a fire , reported at least , a fire involving Canada winter games facilities at Brandon, given that there seems to be some rather strange lit igat ion procedures involving certain people who would be principals relative to ski fac ilities relating to the Canada Games , can the Minister give some assurance that all this is being monitored and that Manitoba stands in no danger of not being able to fulfill its obligations crisply with respect to the staging of the Winter Games . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker , I think that that question had better be directed to me as the Minister responsible for fitness and amateur sport. With respect to the fire , Sir, the report that I've received on it to date is that it is relatively minor in the overall scheme of things . It involved the wood being used for the bleachers at one of the athletic sites . There will be a week 's delay apparently in final preparation of the site as a consequence but the Games officials themselves don't see that as any significant or major problem . As far as the ski hill situat ion is concerned , Mr.

Speaker , the Honourable Leader of the Opposition will recall that this government reconfirmed the decision taken by his government to authorize the application of $190,000 out of lottery funds for the construction of ski facilities at Mt. Agassiz for the Alpine Ski events in the games. That work is proceeding and it is my understanding that it will be completed well ahead of

schedule . The necessary procedures were followed very carefully by the government to ensure the protection of the funding that is coming from lottery trust accounts . That funding is being advanced into a trust category and is being held "in trust " to be disbursed upon completion of the facility. MR. SCHREYER: Is the Minister indicating then that the litigation which is current which may have real basis or which may be completely unjustified , we don 't know , but this , in any case, will have no bearing on the pace with which the ski facility is brought to completion .? MR.

SHERMAN: I am assured that that is the situation , Mr. Speaker , because of a change in princ ipals in the Agassiz Corporation itself . I think I can assure my honourable friend that that event will have no effect on the pace of completion of those facilities . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A. R. (Pete) ADAM: Thank you , Mr. Speaker . I have a question for the Minister of Northern Affairs and by way of a

preamble , it appears that there has been some market for the less marketable species of fish this winter- I am referring to mullets- and I would ask the Minister if there were any alternative proposals discussed with the Federal Minister- LeBlanc , I believe it is- in regard to prov iding a subsidy to fishermen to cover the market price and the cost of production in order that fishermen may receive at least the cost of production for their raw fish which is about 10 cents a pound , a similar program that has been provided to the livestock producers. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs . HON.

KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Mr. Speaker , that particu lar point wasn't specifically discussed . I would like to believe the member could appreciate that it took us the 12-14 hours to establish the two basic principles : (

a) being that there was a need for a review of the marketing procedures which could encompass this and , (

b) that there was a possibility of negotiations for a new structure , a new method of structur ing the FFMC board. It took us, in fact , I say to you very honestly , it took us the entire day to establish those two principles and get them in print. MR. ADAM: By way of a supplementary question , Mr. Speaker , would the Minister take this as notice and perhaps discuss this at some future time with the Federal Minister in order to .. . MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker , I am prepared to accept any suggestions in anyway , shape or form , that would improve the fishing industry and the return of the fishermen to Manitoba .

While I'm on my feet , Mr. Speaker , the Honourable Leader of the Opposition asked me a question yesterday whether in fact Pakwagan was to be sold on three days not ice. Th is is totally , absolutely incorrect. 1 have no idea where he got the information but the original not ice went in the papers on April 21st and tenders are being opened , proposals looked at on May 10th, which is approximately 20 days . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . 1344

Thursday, April 27' 1978 MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker , I received an answer to a question that I didn 't really anticipate ~nd that is, is the Minister indicating that tenders have been called, are now in process of bemg, presumably, prepared , will be received - if any - and opened in early May for the sale of the Pakwagan assets or simply for the sale of the finished production? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. MR. MacMASTER: There is an appendix A and an appendix B and the appendix B is all the associated equipment and appendix A is the plant.

If you would like, I can get you a copy of the breakdown but it's been advertised as such . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I have a question to the Minister responsible for Manitoba Housing . I would ask the Minister in relating to questions posed to him yesterday , could he advise how many applications for the Critical Home Repair are now being processed on a per week and on a per monthly basis? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for Housing . HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): Mr.

Speaker, I'll have to take that question as not ice and get the honourable member the answer . I'm not just sure how many they're doing a week, per month but I can say to him that now that the snow is off the ground and off the roofs and everything of that nature , we'll be moving much faster than we have been . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce . The honourable member has had three questions . MR. ADAM: A supplementary question to this Minister . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Yes, a supplmementary question to the same Minister .

Yesterday he mentioned that perhaps the banks would be delivering the Critical Home Repair Program in the future and I would like to know what expertise they have in this field or are the banks going to be replacing the trades in delivering this program? MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker , the honourable member wasn 't listening or he has listened to my comments on the media after I mentioned it in the House . I said that applications could be available through the banks or at the banks , which is a very logical place to have them .

Maybe they can assist us the way they have assisted other people when people are making applications , or picking up applications . Maybe we'll put them at the Post Office if it's better -(Interjection)- but, no, I mean, Mr. Speaker, if the honourable members on the other side want to be cynical about the thing, fine, but we're looking at it to do the most efficient way . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism . HON. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendyre): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Yesterday the Member for Logan asked me a question with regard to cottage lots and I would just like to very briefly , because we can elaborate on it more during the Estimates , but I am informed that plans are being completed by my department and we will be requesting funds for cottage lot sites at Little Grindstone, Lake of the Prairie , Beresford Lake, Long Lake, Waterhen River , Wekusko Lake , Egg Lake, Dawson Lake , Setting Lake , Steep Rock and Birse Lake . There are between 500 to 700 cottage lots included in this list. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR.

SCHREYER: The Minister of Tourism having indicated Egg Lake , among others, would he consider it advisable to have a cottage lot subdivision in the near proximity to a minimum security detention facility which exists at Egg Lake? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Tourism. MR. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker , I think with regard to details as far as the cottage lot sites, I will be willing to discuss them during Estimates . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan . MR. WILLIAM JENKINS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to address a question to the Honourable Minister of Public Works, since he is in charge of washrooms and toilets in this building . 1345

Thursday, April 27' 1978 And I ask this question also , Sir , on your behalf, since I understand you have a suite here in the building with a shower and a bath . Is it part of the government restraint program that we had no hot water here in the building for the last four days? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Public Works . MR. ENNS: It's a matter of providing you, Mr. Speaker , with an inv igorating start every morning as you shower with cold water . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Honourable the Attorney-General.

In light of the acknowledged effective job of representing consumer groups at the Manitoba Milk Control Board hearings the other day , will the Minister confirm that Legal Aid lawyers will not be prevented from representing consumer groups at administrative tribunals of the province or at Law Amendments Committee . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker , I would advise the Member for Transcona to read the regulations pursuant to The Legal Aid Society Act which gives the discretion to the Board to allow counsel to represent such groups in whatever instances they deem should. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker , I asked that question because the present Chairman of the Legal Aid and the Task Force Report itself on Page 33, Volume II , recommends that Legal Aid lawyers not represent consumer groups , or other groups , at administrative tribunals or before Law Amendments Committee , therefore , Mr . ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

Can the member bring forward his question? MR. PARASIUK: I'm just getting there , Mr. Speaker . Given that other Task Force Reports have been implemented by the government , is this Task Force Report going to be rejected by the government and therefore will Legal Aid lawyers be allowed to represent consumer groups at administrative tribunals? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , that recommendation has not yet been resolved . MR. PARASIUK: Final supplementary to the Minister .

Can he confirm that the Legal Aid lawyers who were representing consumer groups before administrative tribunals and who appeared on behalf of groups before Law Amendments Committee will have their services terminated as of June 30, for their efforts? MR. MERCIER: My advice , Mr. Speaker , from the Legal Aid Board , is that the Legal Aid Board on their own have decided not to renew those gentlemen 's contracts . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns . MR.CHERNIACK: Thank you , Mr. Speaker . I would like to address some questions to the Honourable the Acting Minister of Finance .

Having reviewed his response as reported on Page 1243 of Hansard to my questions regarding the Pensioners ' Property Tax Credit Special Proposal, I find he did not respond to that portion of my question dealing with the percentage of pensioners at various income levels who were receiving all their education and property taxes paid under the existing system , and I'm wonder ing therefore if he could give us that information and possibly- I think it would be more helpful- if he could actually distribute the schedules which he probably has which indicates the before and after picture in regard to pensioners in different income groups .

That's one item . The other one is, I was not here yesterday , nor have I had an opportunity to review Hansard , Mr. Speaker , 1 am asking the Honourable Minister if he has responded to my request to give us information regarding non-authorized or non-spent Capital Supply accounts in previous years . If he responded yesterday I apologize fo r troubling him and will read it in Hansard , but if he did not , I would ask him when he would . And finally , Mr.

Speaker , I would like to address to the Honourable Minister an inquiry as to whether or not he, his departmen t, or the First Minister have reacted to the fact that , having taken on the proposal by the Federal Government on the sales tax contribution by the Federal Government , and then having done so, having complained bitterly about the fact that they did not have adequate consultation , and considering the fact that Quebec has now received special consideration recogniz ing its bargaining position , is the government prepared to attempt to re-open the negotiations with the Federal Government to obtain a better deal for the citizens of Manitoba?

MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Befo re we go any further I want to tell the honourable members of the 1346

Thursday, April 27' 1978 House that there is a little problem with the production of Hansard . We've had a little foul-up or whatever it is, and there will be a slight delay , so if the Honourable Member for St. Johns is looking for yesterday's Hansard it might be a little late. MR. CHERN lACK: Mr. Speaker, may I, in response to your statement , indicate that it appears from Hansard, Page 1243, that the Minister of Agriculture responded to my inquiries about property tax credit , but I assume that it was indeed the Acting Minister of Finance maybe posing as the Minister of Agriculture. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourab le Minister of Consumer Affairs . HON. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker , I hardly know where to begin . There were so many questions ... First of all , the Member for St. Johns referred to a question which he placed to me the day before yesterday; I am not in a position to respond to that question . I do anticipate that that information will become available . He has also indicated that certain of my answers, Mr.

Speaker , were deficient in terms of technical information , and I will have to review the Hansard to which he refers , and if indeed we have failed to provide all of the information that the member requested , and it is available , then we certainly will attempt to do so. The Member for St. Johns also referred to a question which he put to the Minister of Finance, I believe , on April 13 in relation to sales tax arrangements with the Federal Government.

Some of the subsequent questions which he has now placed relative to that subject, I would think could be taken as notice for the Minister of Finance , who I anticipate will be in the House on Monday and would perhaps prefer to respond directly . But Mr. Speaker, with respect to the question placed by the Member for St.

Johns on April13, I believe the question read: "The amount by which equalization payments to Manitoba by the Federal Government will be increased or decreased because of the reduction or the proposed reduction of the sales tax ." A general answer to the member's question can be found in the April1 0 Federal Budget where it was stated that equalization payments will be insulated from the impact of the retail sales tax and the personal income tax changes .

By way of further explanation I can advise the member that current Estimates indicate the sales tax reduction across the country will reduce equalization payments in respect of sales taxes . On the other hand, the fact the prov inces will be compensated in part through an income tax transfer will mean that equalization payments related to income tax should go up.

However, the ups and downs in equalization payments will both be calculated and an adjustment will be made in the total compensation payments to each province for the sales tax reduction so as to cancel out any positive or negative equalization and effect. Preliminary calculations suggested that Manitoba would gain slightly more in income tax equalization than it would lose in sales tax equalization , but those calculations were of technical interest only since , as I said earlier, any equalization benefits apparently will be deducted from the amount of total compensation our province will receive .

If the member wishes he can , of course, pursue this matter further when the Minister of Finance returns or when Finance Estimates are before the House. Similarly the Minister of Finance indicated when the question came up that he felt it would be most appropriate to wait for Estimates to deal with the questions about sales tax collections and vendors' commissions which were raised by the Member for St. Johns. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Thank you , Mr. Speaker. I'd like to address a question to the First Minister .

Can the First Minister advise the House when the government will set in motion proceedings to begin the redistribution process as required by the Electoral Divisions Act? HON. STERLING R. LYON, Premier (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, in response to the Honourable Member for Brandon East I believe the Act- and I'm only going from memory,! don't have it in front of me - the Act provides that those actions are begun almost automatically by the Clerk of the council and it is my understanding that some very preliminary work has been undertaken and my expectation that it will proceed in the normal way this year pursuant to the statutory requirement. MR.

EVANS: It is my understanding and I thank the Honourable Minister for that information, my understanding from reading the legislation is that the Electoral Boundaries Commission, I believe it's called, shall be convened in this tenth year after the year 1968 and shall prepare a report to Cabinet in this year with recommendations, and that the Cabinet shall then present this report to the Legislative Assembly. So my question then very specifically is whether the First Minister sees the process continuing in a fashion that he will be able to present this report to the Legislative Assembly this year? MR. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, my expectation, and it's only an expectation based upon the work that the Electoral Boundaries Commission would do , but based on previous experience , my expectation would be that the Boundaries Commission would proceed with its work during the course of the present calendar year and that in all likelihood , and it's only a projection at this stage, the next regular 1347

Thursday, April 27' 1978 sitting of the Legislature in 1979, that report would be available then to the 8egislature . MR. EVANS: Thank you , Mr. Speaker . I gather then it is the government's intention not to be able to see this work proceed as expeditiously as to be able to present a report this year but there will be one presented next year.

I just might add that my understanding is that it wou ld be presented then within seven days of the next sitting of the Legislature so therefore , and am I correct in this interpretatio8 that within seven days of the sitting of the Legislature in 1979 that the First Minister on behalf of the government will submit this report to the Assembly? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker , if that is what the statute requires , that is what will be done . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Selkirk. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker , my question to the Attorney-General.

The Attorney-General has taken as notice some time back questions pertaining to whether or not he was considering a probe into alleged break-ins of offices of one Julius Koteles by the RCM P. Has the Attorney-General now completed his investigations and considerations as to a probe? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: No, Mr. Speaker . MR. PAWLEY: Could the Attorney-General advise the House as to when he contemplates that he will be able to provide me with an answer to my questions pertaining to this issue of a probe? MR. MERCIER: As soon as I receive the report from the department , Mr.

Speaker . MR. PAWLEY: Could the Attorney-General advise whether or not the report is being prepared within the departmen t or is it being completed by persons or a person outside the department? MR. MERCIER: The report , Mr. Speaker , will be made by the department in conjunction with the RCMP. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. JORGENSON: I move, seconded by the Minister of Labour , that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty . MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood on a point of order . MR. DOERN: Is the question period over or is there still time? MR. SPEAKER: Yes. ---.- . MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Education and the Honourable Member for Crescentwood in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - AGRICULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Warren Steen: Committee come to order . I recognize the Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Mr.

Chairman , I guess we could have probably finished the D~partment of Agriculture Estimates by 5:30 last night had it not been for some procedur~l foul-~p m the House when they went into Private Members , otherwise we could have completed 1t last mght , I am sure . I haven't got much more to say. 1 have a few concerns that I want to again bring to the Minister 's attt?ntion on what appears to ~e changes in the policy direct ion of the Minister and this government , pol1cy ~hang_es that I believe w1ll be a detriment to such areas as the constituency I represent , and also , I bel1eve smcerely , to some of 1348

Thursday, April 27' 1978 the other constituencies represented by members of the government as well. I'm quite sure that the changes in the policy of the land lease, freezing that program, that will definitely be a detriment to young farmers getting into agriculture in my area, and I'm very , very disappointed that the government has frozen that program because it is a good program . It's not a th ing that's going to perhaps bring prosperity back to the agriculture scene, but it will at least assist many young farmers to get into agriculture whereby they would not get into agriculture otherwise .

Now , the Minister has mentioned that he intends to bring in programs , perhaps low interest loans and so on , b,l remember the Premier 's often-uttered comments when he says, you know , that he doesn't want to see the young generation of this province with an albatross around their necks. And the same th ing applies here. When you ask a young farmer to put an albatross of $100,000 or $200,000 around his neck without knowing whether he's going to be successful or not, that 's also an albatross, so I'm sorry that that program is discontinued , that is, the land lease program .

The other main concern that I have is that any changes in the agriculture Crown lands, that's the ones whereby if the Minister intends to sell these lands, I think that would be a serious situation for areas such as ours. I am also saddened by the fact that the policy direction will be aimed not directly at the lower-income groups to try and alleviate their situation. I hope that the Minister will bear that in mind because the whole area is depressed , you know , most of the area is depressed, such as Emerson and part of Ste. Rose- not all of Ste. Rose.

It's like Alsona , you know , communities like Alonsa where the farms are only 150, 200 acres, 300 acres, those kind of areas need special attention. So with those few comments, Mr. Chairman , we are prepared to pass the Estimates but I would hope next year that the Premier doesn 't have to come and do battle for the Minister , that he's able to do his own battle . We didn't listen to him ; he was quite silent here from 8 to 10 o'clock and if it had not been for the Premier, I don't know what the Minister would have done . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture . MR.JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr.

Chairman, on the particular item that we're on now, on behalf of myself and the department , I would like to thank the participation from the members opposite in their in-depth look at the voted Estimates . It certainly gives myself an opportunity to discuss them with them. I am sure their participation , as the participation of the members on the side of the government, certainly has shown the importance that agriculture is to the Province of Manitoba. I would also like to thank the department staff for their participation in the debate on the department Estimates.

I would also like to thank the one lone news reporter for bearing with us for as long as she has. I'm sure that she has sat through the whole discussions to get the whole and complete debate . I would look forward to in the coming years of development an ongoing program or a new program, to work with the Federal Government to introduce new programs which will assist the development of agriculture in the Province of Manitoba , and of course, as I said in my opening statement, emphasizing the use of water and soil development and diversification of livestock and crop specialization .

We certainly look forward to development of new markets and emphasis towards a market thrust, and introduce certainly new work in the area of new research projects and to provide the farm people with information from the department and from the agricultural part of our government- I am sure with the emphasis on production, enabling the producers to go forward as individuals. We emphasize the importance of the family farm in Manitoba, that it is they that should be the people that are doing the producing; that the service industry to the farm people should take place from the small community towns .

We look forward to the growth of these communities, that they be major service centres for the farm communities. We do not, in fact , want to see the number of farm people decrease in Manitoba, we want to see the development of more farm units, prosperous farm units, and also see the development of small agri-service business in rural Manitoba . It is this kind of relationship and teamwork that the private sector and the farming community, the people within the farming community, will certainly help all of Manitoba grow and prosper , and we should look to agriculture as the main and most important industry.

I think that with the individuals that are involved with the production of food, that we can look forward to working with them to the development of policies that are meaningful for them, and programs that are meaningful for them . They will have the opportunity through the farm organizations to have input into what direction they would like to see the province go, and as I stated earlier, I feel that with the communications with the department and the people in the farm community and the servicing to the industry that we can see Manitoba grow and expand and become a more prosperous province for all of Canada.

I would just like to close my remarks be re-emphasizing the participation by the members opposite, and our members of the government. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. SAM USKIW: Mr. Chairman, just one small observation. I would like the Minister to correct me if I am wrong , but as I see it, I believe we have approved , once we have passed this last item, pretty well the same program that we had ongoing for the last number of years, but in particular last year, with virtually the same staff component.

As I understand it, there's a reduction of about 10 staff man years in total from this department , which in effect is not a reduction at all because there have been 1349

Thursday, April 27' 1978 somewhere in the order of between 50 and 70 vacancies consistently over the last two or three years so that there 's no real reduction in staff as I understand it. And if I'm not correct I would appreciate if the Minister would correct me. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman , the re are some staff positions that have been deleted . The total numbers of individuals , I don 't believe have changed very much .

I think under review all the programs and the projects that are under way are being reviewed and we hope to re-employ the people that are now employed with the department in any new programs that we introduce to the province . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman , when I made my comments a while ago I didn 't have my notes that I had prepared last night.

There's one more concern that I'd like to bring to the Ministe r's attention and that is the changes wh ich I feel are very important , and that is the changes in the Manitoba Farm Land Protection Act, and I would caution him very seriously that he will be endangering the viability of the farming industry if he does allow Canadian corporations back into land speculation , and you know , for one example , ther e are a number of Soviet Un ion compan ies in Canada which may well start buying land if he opens Canadian corporations .

They are Canadian Ccorporations as such and they may even set up a company to start buying land . You're allowing moneyed interests to compete with family farms and I think that this would be very dangerous , to do this . MR. DOWNEY: The member opposite , I believe , indicated at some time in earlier talks within the Committee that he owned land in quite a few municipalities , and I hope it's for the concern of all of the Manitobans that he's concerned about and not particularly for certain individuals that are large landholders now or wish to be.

But I think he's strictly assuming certain things when he makes those comments that it could happen . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Yes. Well, Mr. Chairman , the Minister insists on stating repeatedly that "I own land in many municipalities ," and I think that perhaps I should clear the record that I have 960 acres of farm land , agricultural land , in the municipality , which is below the average , by the way , Mr. Chairman , which is below the national average today . I think the average is close to 1,000, but I have 960 acres in Ochre River and I have a lot in Ste.

Rose, a building lot in the municipality of Ste. Rose, and a building lot in the municipality of Lawrence . That is the extent of my tremendous land holdings . And I am sure the Member for Lakeside has 1,700 acres of Crown land which he hasn't paid anything for since 1975 and which he leases out to other farmers- and you know , my land is all privately owned, I haven 't been bestowed any favours by the Crown , I have no Crown lands at all , whatsoever . And I believe even the member opposite has very little Crown land. And so. I just want to clarify that. MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 1.(a)-pass .

Resolution No.8: Resolved that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceeding $10,055,900 for Agriculture General Administration-pass . The Committee will recess for a few moments before we start another department. SUPPLY- HIGHWAYS MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Warren Steen: Committee come to order again. We are on Page 45 in the Estimates Book under Highways , under 1.(

b) Administration . 1.(b)

(1) Salaries . The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: I wanted to get some clarification from the Minister responsible for Highways in that he did mention that all funds allocated in the Estimates , $160.5 million , have all been allocated ; it's all committed , and the cupboard is bare , there isn't a dollar left. To get some clarification , when he made that statement was he referring that there are no moneys in the cupboard to complete those projects that were started or is he saying that those funds are set aside as we have for other programs or other departments? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Highways. MR.

ENNS: Mr. Chairman , ! believe that statement was made in thecontextthatwewerediscussing the other evening as to whether or not the Department of Highways had additional unused capital funds or carryover of any description . My information is that- and my Deputy Minister will be here shortly - is that there is no carryove r in any cap ital account available to Highways and that's when I made my statement , there are not capital accounts wit moneys dedicated for Highways that are not 1350

Thursday, April 27' 1978 shown in these estimates . MR. ADAMS: Yes, I thank the Minister for his explanation. We were left with the impression that there was no more money left , that all was committed and that there was no money , in other words , when we left and I discussed this with the Member for Seven Oaks, and he was under the same impression that there was no money left to complete the works that had been started last year . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, let me just expand on this. It has always been the tradition, the carryover work is part of the $160 million, and is being proceeded with in the normal manner.

The references to not having capital dollars in no way inhibits the Department of Highways from carrying on or completing those projects that were undertaken and that have been re-identified if you like, as being of the type that ought to be completed . Any of the carryover projects that you will see in your pink slips- pardon me, I shouldn 't use that word I guess- the pink sheets of paper in front of you ... sufficient dollars are there, it's included in the $160 million . MR. ADAM: Yes, then would I be correct in saying that is there a carryover of $25 million that is not shown on the $160 million. MR.

ENNS: No, I believe the information given to the Committee the other evening was that of the new construction program listed in the Highways , there is possibly some $23 million or $24 million carryover, which is part of the $75 million of new construction to be undertaken this year . MR. ADAM: So that figure appears in the 75 million? MR. ENNS: Uh huh. MR. ADAM: So therefore, we are going to have roughly 50 million of new construction this year? I'm just trying to get at the .. . MR. ENNS: Let's not confuse terminology . We're now talking about real things, like highways. To you, to the Member for St.

George , or to the Member for Virden , because the Highways program refers to a program as being a carryover , when that road actually gets built and surfaced in your constituency, that's new construction and that's part of the new construction program, that's part of the $75 million. MR. ADAM: The Minister is indicating that there was 23 to 24 million carryover and that it now appears in the 75 million. I want that clear ; that's where it is, it's not set aside such as the case in the Department of Agriculture .

He did mention I believe that in order to spend $160 million, that they would have to commit 225 million. MR.

ENNS: Perhaps by way of greater clarification, the 160 million total highway expenditures is roughly made up of the 85 or 80 odd millions of dollars for maintenance carrying on with the Motor Vehicle Branch and all the other functions of the department, and the $75 million as broken out, is the new construction program and what the information given to the Committee the night before was, in order for us to spend or come close to that spending of $75 million, we in practice over the years have over committed ourselves. We actually look out and award very often, you know, work to the extent of maybe ...

I believe we have committed ourselves to some $118 million worth of work this year, because past years of experience have shown us through one delay or another, acquiring of land very often being the major one, or weather , poor construction weather, if we simply contracted for the $75 million, we'd never spend it. Some delay would stop and then we would be carrying on with a much lesser Highways program. And that of course I might add , that's what leads to the annual, and it is part and parcel of the Highway programs way of doing business, the annual carryover.

Obviously when I am authorized, the Department of Highways with concurrence of this Committee, will authorize, and the House will authorize Highways to spend $75 million . If we have unusually good weather and everything is smooth sailing, then as we reach that figure , or close to that figure of $75 million, then we will have to put into next year 's carryover program, some of those road projects that you see listed in your pages just as was the practice in years before. MR. ADAM: The work that's uncompleted will then lapse and be brought forward, as it has been this year? MR.

ENNS: It will be drawn forward in the same manner as it has been drawn forward this year . MR. ADAM: And there wili be no carryover. Could the Minister indicate, of the 20.5 million of capital last year that was voted for Highways, what happened to that 20.5 million? MR. ENNS: I'll wait for my Deputy Minister to give me some advice on that but my understanding is that we have exhausted the total capital supply that was allocated for Highways in this year's estimates .

This is the final amount of capital that was available to us as was the case in other departments over the years , but in the case of Highways, we have with set of estimates, with this 1351

Thursday, April 27' 1978 year's program , no further capital authority in any carryover position in the Department of Highways. MR. ADAM: That figure is correct then , my figure of 20,573,000, is that the capital appropriation? Was there any capital carried forward from previous years? Is that the inclusive figure? MR. ENNS: That 's the inclusive figure , . . . back three or four years . I think I read the list, I read it out the night before . Mr.

Chai rman , I have no objection to continuing on with this debate but I felt we dealt with it rather conclusively Wednesday night , or the other evening , but however it's up to the members of the Committee to ask the questions they wish to ask. MR. ADAM: I hope the Minister is not going to have a closure on it. MR. ENNS: I never do that. MR. ADAM: Could the Minister advise when the commitments were made for the $20.5 million , the commitments , when were these . . . MR. ENNS: The commitment to use any carryover capital was done during the compilation of this year's Estimates .

We received no further commitments from the Department of Finance with respect to capital financing for the next year . I'm advised that the commitments made , if that's the information that the honourable member seeks, as to the committing of dollars into the capital programs of Highways was made in previous years by the previous administration . What I'm indicating to the committee now is that we have spent that money and we do not have further ongoing capital carryover . MR. ADAM: Yes, I have figures for 1976-77 but I don 't . . . MR.

ENNS: Yes, dati ng back to 1973-74, we had a Capital Supply Bill of some $16.5 million . In 1974- 75, a Capital Bill of $28 million was spent and a remaining $15 million remained in the Capital Supply Bill. In 1975-76, some $7 million was spent from the Capital Supply Bill still leaving a $15 million reserve in the Capital Supply Bill. In 1977-78 , there was $15 million spent out of the Capital Supply Bill and no other allocation allotted . MR. ADAM: I'm not sure whether I heard the Minister on 1976-77. Did you give me a figure forth at? MR.

ENNS: In 1976-77, $4,300,000 was spent , still leaving the Capital Supply Bill standing at $15 million . Then in 1977-78, $15 million , or the entire amount , was spent and that's what the reference was made to the bare cupboard in terms of the last . .. The previous administration in their last year , exhausted the Capital Supply that was allocated to Highways - $15,000,246.00. MR. ADAM: I don 't know whether these figures here are authentic or not , but I have figures for 1976- 77 that show a proposed projects estimated cost of $52.405 and a carryover of $35.577 for 1976-77.

I don 't know where these come from . The previous Minister's files . While I'm looking at this sheet' Mr. Chairman , I can't help but comment that the Member for Roblin was belly -aching here like he usually does and -(lnterjection)- A MEMBER: Complaining . MR. ADAM: ... I prefer to call it belly-aching because the figures I have here , the estimated projects in Roblin was $2,790,000 which there was a carryover of $356,000 and I know that a lot of the members here are continually harping about the amount of work being done in Ste. Rose.

For that year, it was less than half of what went into Roblin according to the figures I have- $1 ,226,000- but this was just only estimated . You know , it could have been changed . But I just want to get that on the record for the Member for Roblin who is always complaining that he's never getting any roads and what a terrible government we had and things. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(b)(1 )-pass- the Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman , unless other members have general comments to make , I wanted to get into spec ifics and if that is all right , I wonder if the Minister could tell me just what the intention is with respect to the reconstruction that is under way on No. 11 north of Highway 44. That particular project was under way all winter . I suppose the question is: Is there going to be a resurfacing? I don 't see anyth ing in the new program ; I just see mention of the existing carryover program but which is essent ially complete , as I unders tand it, or practically completed. MR.

ENNS: Well, there is some completion of shoulder widening , grade widening , and shoulder improvement , as shown in the . MR. USKIW: In the carryover . 1352

Thursday, April 27' 1978 MR. ENNS: . . . in the carry-over portion of the program . MR. USKIW: Yes, this is the point , Mr. Chairman . I am aware of that and I believe there isn't much work left to be done there . I believe it was the intent of the department to resurface after the shoulders were built because that road needs resurfacing but I don't notice anything in the Estimates with respect to the upgrading of the surface of that particular highway . Perhaps there's a good reason for it. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , I invite the honou rable member to make representation to the Ministry of Highways in the normal manner for work to be done in succeeding years. There are no plans in this year 's budget to resurface . The program has been designed and chosen as before you and I don't doubt for a moment that every member on either side of the House will have a number of roads or places where he would desire to see some road work .

We have attempted , just by general way of explanation, to share the work reasonably well throughout the 12 highway district s which, I may mention , are not . .. with the political constituencies with perhaps the districts in Northern Manitoba - 10 is it, Mr. Brako or 12? - 10 and the District No. 1 which encompasses Winnipeg receiving the greater share of the budget. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman , I don 't want to quarrel with the Minister .

I understand that there is a need to priorize and I'm not quarrelling with that and he obviously is going to use his discretion along with the departmental advice that he receives . I'm just talking abou t a logical sequence of events that takes place with the reconstruction of roads. There 's usually the upgrading itself, and then subsequently a planned approach to resurfacing at some point or other. I just want to know the intention of the government, it doesn't have to be within this particular year. MR. ENNS: Well , there would be no question that the intention would be to complete and to resurface.

There is often professional advice given by Highways that they prefer to see a newly upgraded road settle down, or for weak spots or potholes to develop where perhaps compaction is less than desirable prior to putting the expensive overlay of asphalt. MR. USKIW: Yes, well then, Mr. Chairman, I wonder whether the Minister could advise me with respect to whether the project on 317 is accurately described or is that an error . On Page 8 of the carryover projects 9.1 miles, it says west of PTH 12. Should that not read east? Then the other one should read west.

There's only one stretch there that isn't complete as I understand it. MR. ENNS: On PTH 217? MR. USKIW: 317. Page 8 of the carryover projects . Yes. West of No. 12 is complete and has been for some years now . I presume that must mean east of No. 12. Perhaps the Deputy Minister could advise us. Base and asphalt surface treatment. MR. ENNS: I think the way you have to read that is from west going east. MR. USKIW: Oh, I see. Perhaps then I'm not reading the information properly. So that is the final phase of that particular project , Mr. Chairman. / MR. ENNS: That's correct. MR.

USKIW: I'll defer for a moment because I'm sure there are other members that want to get into the specifics and then I'll come back . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George is next , then Selkirk , and then back to Ste. Rose. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . In this area of administration I wanted to ask the Minister the number of staff man years that have been requested or staff that are there and how many of those are filled and how many are presently vacant and what the intentions are? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I believe I took that question as notice the other evening .

Do we have , those figures available to us at this time? Perhaps we can continue and come back to them.l'll supply those figures to the Committee momentarily. ·IIIIR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Selkirk . R. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if I could just deal with River Road 238 from Parkdale to Lockport. As the Minister is probably quite aware it's been a constant bugbear over the years with sliding into the Red River as a result of erosion .

There had been negotiations with Ottawa but they were not really successful , and at the same time there's been constant need of barricading along the River Road and of some concern especially to the operators of school buses that at some point there would be fatalities . Now approximately a year ago plans were presented for a re-routing of the road in question and those plans would have involved some very very expensive work. Now I note that in the 1353

Thursday, April 27' 1978 Estimate review the Minister has made reference to remedial work and I was wondering if the Minister would enlighten us as to what his intentions are under the heading of remedial work . MR. ENNS: At this point , Mr. Chairman , through you to the Member for Selkirk, the member is correct.

To do, you know , major improvement of the order that he noted involving re-routing of the road was deemed unadvisable by the department for several reasons- a very serious disruption of property involved to begin with- but more important , simply the dollars , and it's our judgment that while it may not be a totally satisfactory situation we feel the best we can do is to do remedial work that will at least involve the refilling of some of the bad slides, some of the slopes , keep the erosion as stable as possible with some additional rip-rapping or other types of work that the department would undertake .

In other words we hope to keep the present road in as reasonable a repair as we can, and we have not decided to go for a major re-routing of the road at this time. MR. PAWLEY: In the late, late Forties a stretch along the River Road had been backed up by way of rocks and other mater ial that should provide the support and as a result of that it has contributed to some extent to the preventing of erosion in a particular stretch along the River Road, and there had been discussions that involved the Member for Lac du Bonnet and the First Minister and myself with predecessor-! believe Mr.

Drake was present , I'm not sure- about a test project in which for a short distance there'd be some effort to see whether or not piles would assist in preventing the erosion of the River Road into the river and if some money would be allocated for that. I say that because past efforts by, and certainly by the government of which I was a part , wasn't all that successful, and it was felt that there was need for some type of innovation or experimentation to see whether or not piles, or something which would be roughly equivalent to the attempts in the late Forties would be successful.

Now I know that there is certain skeptism as to the benefit of this but I wonder if the Minister has had opportunity to consider or to discuss the possibility of such a test project. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I can't say specifically that I've had the occasion or the time to specifically direct myself to that piece of road in the manner that the Member for Selkirk suggests .

I can tell him though that I hope the department takes note of the fact , that we're not particularly happy with having to spend ten or fifteen or twenty thousand dollars there virtually every year in this remedial effort and I would undertake to the Honourable Member of Selkirk that certainly if some innovative methods can be used they ought to be used to help reduce that just about regular or yearly maintenance- the very high cost of maintenance on that piece of road .

It's possible that if we in any given year can find ourselves with some additional maintenance money available, either as a result of good or ideal weather conditions , that we can undertake some remedial work other than just the patching and the surfacing kind of work that has been done by and large to date in the last number of years . I know the difficulty and the problem that that road presents .

I have travelled that road in my youth , I remember it with some fondness , and I'm sure the Honourable Member for Selkirk would agree it would lose a great deal of that particular attractiveness if it were made into some super highway, you know, somewhat removed from the river bank and crashing through people's backyards and through their living rooms . We don't see ourselves solving that problem in that way with that road .

I think perhaps the member's suggestions will be taken seriously by the department that we should look to whatever means of bank stabilization we can arrive at but I'm always sure the member realizes that that's an ongoing difficult problem , the Red River type of soils that we have, the nature of the river, the high and low water peaks that we have to deal with that cause the difficulty of it. It is suffice to say we will try to keep the road open and reasonably manageable for traffic . MR.

PAWLEY: Yes, I would just like to emphasize that I would hope that some test project of stabilization could be attempted because it had been earlier discussed and I don't want to appear to be . . . You know, I recognize the fact that you're just taking over the portfolio and during the election period some of the Minister's friends posted a sign on the road saying , "This is the condition of the road after eight years of NDP government ," so I would say to the . A MEMBER: It will say the same thing four years from now . MR. PAWLEY: . . .

Minister that I would hope that in 1981, for the sake of the residents along the road , that they wouldn 't feel inclined to add , "This is the road after eight years of NDP governme nt and four years of Conservative government. " I would hope there would be some improvement. MR. ENNS: Your generosity overwhelms me, the Honourable Member for Selkirk, I would have assumed that you would just as soon leave the road in pretty rough condition so that you can in fact put up that sign 16 years from now . MR.

PAWLEY: But I would like to just add one final point, that that road is probably the most scenic in the province and so close to Winnipeg , it's a tremendously scenic route . It adds greatly to the province . I fear very much that one of these days we're going to have a fatality along that road and I would hope that some real thought can be given to some projects to try to bring about impro vement. Now I know the problem of rerouting and whatnot , and we didn 't proceed on that path and I can hardly expect the Minister to do so.

I would like to just deal with another concern that I have, and again I mentioned it in prev ious years. 1354

Thursday, April 27' 1978 I find that property owners- and it's not Highways fault but I'm just wondering what can be done about it - property owners that have their property expropriated for highway purposes end up waiting for years and year:s and years and years to receive compensation for the taking. Word gets about and then when the department wishes to acquire land for land elsewhere , property owners will say, "Well , look I know Joe Smith , or Bill Jones , they waited for 6, 7 years to obtain their compensation ." Now I know some of the problem.

I guess it's with other departments and with surveyors and whatnot. I'm just wondering if the Minister would like to comment on that because I always felt it was a problem that we had failed to properly deal with and I would hope that the Minister could find some way of dealing with it more expeditiously . Only last week I had a couple of farmers complain to me that they have been waiting for well over a year for some compensation for some land that was taken by the Department of Highways a year and a half ago and that's a short space of time to some of the other complaints I had received at other times .

So I would like just to receive the Minister's comments if he is aware of that problem , if he's trying to .. . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I'm well aware of the problem and the matter that the Member for Selkirk refers to , as a rule deals with where lands have been expropriated . There is - and the former Attorney-General will be aware and I agree- somewhat over lengthy delays in transferring and proper legal descriptions of lands to some extent. Very often it is also , of course, a question of not coming to a final settlement and , on the odd occasion , without , you know , drawn-out litigation involved .

I would invite the honourable member that we should cons ider this when we look and perhaps reopen the Expropriation and the Land Acquisition Acts . Under the Expropriation Act now, the department is obligated to pay 80 percent of the value of the land within a prescribed number of days- 80 days or in that order- so that when you talk about these cases of people waiting too long for final payment , I think it's not fair to say that they haven't ... In most instances, indeed if not all instances, have received 80 percent of the land value in question .

There seems to be a difficulty with the remaining 20 percent and I agree, it's too long . It may call for some revision in the procedure. I would assume that at some point- and my memory doesn 't serve me well- but at some point, when revisions were made to the whole business of government expropriating land for whatever reasons, that at some point in time that revision was probably made to the Expropriation Act to instruct governments to pay a percentage - in this case 80 percent of the land. That could be, perhaps, revised that it be a greater amount, closer to the total value.

There seems to be a reason though, in many instances not initiated by government but by the landowner in question , why a final disposition is delayed . MR. PAWLEY: I just mention to the member that last year I caused as Attorney-General late in- I believe, it was May or June and the new Attorney-General will have the report in his office- an investigation be launched in regard to delays of seven and eight years in payment of the moneys from a drainage ditch and there was fault all the way along the line . You would find that report to be quite helpful to him and Mr. Mercier has it. MR.

ENNS: Might I just add one more word with respect to the Member for Selkirk's concern about the River Road. One shouldn't speculate about what may happen down the line but the member is aware that there is an ongoing interest and indeed a commitment and development of river frontage property commencing right here in the City . The previous administration entered into, I believe it's called an ARC Agreement with Ottawa to pick up a desirable and valuable river frontage land here in the City heading towards that direction .

It's conceivable that within the overall development, from a tourist point of view, improvements that are taking place at Lower Fort Garry, for instance, that some assistance of substance, coming from this area, perhaps shared by Ottawa and ourselves and our Tourist Branch could , in the longer run , come to the aid and benefit to the River Road that I am concerned about and that the member is concerned about.

It will never be, and I think that's understood , Highways would not look upon that road as being of importance from a transportation point of view, neither would the residents want us to look at it from that point of view . It is a scenic route such as the member described; the value being primarily for those reasons and to facilitate people enjoying the river at that location .

There seems to be as much rationale for Departments of Tourism and Recreation , etc., under agreements that are being signed from time to time with Ottawa to take on some responsibility, if they see that as desirable to bring that road into the kind of shape that the honourable member requests. MR. PAWLEY: Just before leaving , the Minister has no reference to it in his estimates, but I'd appreciate any adviSe that he might provide in connection with the continuation of the surfacing, if there is any intention to continue the surfacing of the River Road north of Selkirk, north of the C landeboye cutoff .

There is a stretch there of two and a half or three miles- which reaches into the 1\let ley Marsh area and cottage development in that area- which presently is in pretty bad shape has been a constant thorn. We had completed the surfacing part of the way up about four years ago and I had approached and your predecessor had it under consideration to complete the remainder of the road for surfacing purposes. MR. CHAIRMAN: For the members of the Committee, before we carry on with the 8stimates, the 1355

Thursday, April 27' 1978 Clerk has asked me to check with members present about the Private Members Hour and find out from all of you as to whether any of you have any intentions of speaking on the adjourned debates under Private Members . If not , we will carry on till5:30. It's agreed. -(Interjection)- The items? Well, the Liquor Control Act, which is in Mr. Green 's name and I am told he is not going to speak today on it, and the Freedom of Information Act in Mr. Ferguson's name , and he is not interested in going today . Will we carry on till 5:30? The Member for Ste. Rose. MR.

ADAM: Well , if they are not adjourning for Private Members Hour , but if they do, we have to pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I know , but I'm just trying to find out amongst the members here, and then I can report to the House Leader . We're not interested in Private Members today; we'll carry on till5 :30 then. Is the Member for Selkirk finished for the time being? MR. PAWLEY: Well, I believe the Honourable Minister is going to . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Highways . MR. ENNS: . . . to that particular situation.

There is a difficulty which the member may be aware of where there is some cross purposes at work within the departments of government, namely Water Control has expressed the concern about not in any way raising the level of that road for reasons of drainage , I presume , or whatever reasons Water Control has. We are sorting that out at the moment but my Deputy Minister informs me that Water Control has entered an objection or a caveat on to any work being done on that road until they have passed their approval on it. MR.

PAWLEY: The point that the Minister is referring to where the water does flood over the River Road, did this year I believe , it hadn't for the last three years, but in the water flooding over the low point in that road it covers many , many hundreds of acres and I just don 't know what objection the water branch would have to the raising of that road which would assist in holding the water back and preventing it from flooding. MR. ENNS: The only difference is that in essence you're building a dam and where you're sending the water elsewhere is possibly Water Control's concern.

Until they themselves perhaps have the necessary design for remedial work to either by way of culverage or others that would . .. I must admit , Mr. Chairman , I am not aware of the specifics of it but my staff informs me that Water Control have an interest in that road and under those circumstances we tend to have to iron them out first before we proceed . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman , we're on generalities now? Okay , since we are talking about acquisition I would like to refer to one particular case that is on the bottom of the first page, number 5. MR.

CHAIAN: Page number five? MR. ADAM: Page number one, on the pink slips . The 55 feet required for widening of shoulder which is done because I think of agreement amongst farmers to prefer to give wider footage of roadway rather than go to border pits , so you know as not to jog in and out to suit every individual farmer . They try to take it right across the board, if the majority of the farmers decide to go for the wider footage , they 'll go that way rather than go to borer pits. but this does create enormous problems. One in particular , a Mr.

Miller , who has I believe ten acres, and he intends to build a house and the highway requires 55 feet of his property . His field is already in place for a future dwelling; he has a trailer in place at the present time which is temporary and now the highway require 55 feet. The house will have to be built further back than what was anticipated and in fact it will be built right on top of his septic field. There is the problem also of the Land Acquisition ; he knows he gets $150 an acre or whatever it is for three acres of road allowance, 55 feet.

And here he is going to have to spend $1,500 to move a field back and we don 't know whether he will have, I suppose he will have sufficient property left to be at least25 feet back from the road allowance , I don't know what the regulations are on that. There is a problem there and somehow they had a chance to go through some appeal mechanism , but I don 't know whether they had. I am just wondering if there is any way that this particular case could be looked at, it's a Mr. Miller anyway . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , I wonder if I could indicate to the honourable member that what he is describing is of course a good part of my everyday life and it is always a disrupting situation when this has to be done . But I would certainly invite the honourable member to prov ide my office with the name and address of the person involved . I can't deal with the specific person but I certainly invite th e honourable member to bring that to the attention of my department and we will certainly look into it.

There are procedures available to him in the whole process of the government acquiring the land , that begin with the initial steps by government , then the Land Value Appraisal Commission takes a 1356

Thursday, April 27' 1978 look at it to see whether or not pricewise the property owne r is being dealt with in their judgment reasonably fairly . And then there is of course , in the final recourse, the last resort I suppose is the courts , although I appreciate that this is seldom sought or in many instances it is too expe nsive to seek. But there's also the Ombudsman . But I would ask the honourable member to bring that kind of information to me privately or to members of my staff . MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman , I believe it was last week we requested the number of SMYs on the different departments .

It seems if we had a printed sheet here given to us, we would not have to ask that question on every item, we could probably be a lot quicker and a lot faster if we had that information instead of asking on every item how many SMYs and how many unfilled and how many vacancies and how many on contract and how many on permanent, and so on . MR. ENNS: I can give you the overall figures at this time.

The question was asked the other evening as a comparison from the previous year to this year, and I am informed that in Highways, a year ago, we had 864 permanent positions with 81 being vacant , 49 term positions, one contract, and 1,829 departmental largely composed of the maintenance staff , for a grand total of 2,743 employees employed with the Department of Highways at any one given period of time , and those were last year's figures- 2,743 SMYs . MR. USKIW: When you say last year 's, how many were vacant? MR. ENNS: SMYs, and 81 were vacant.

This year 's approved staffing level or today, we have 876 permanent SMYs with 79 still remaining vacant; 47 term positions, and 1,830 departmental, for a total of 2,753 SMYs with 79 SMYs being vacant. So your difference is 2,743 as compared to 2,753, an increase of 10, Mr. Chairman , and I rather suspect that when you consider that the Department of Highways expands its operations every year with every mile that's being built , that in the department and with the capable management of the Department of Highways it was very hard for even this government to find fat. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is the Member for Ste.

Rose finished for the time being? MR. ADAM: I am just wondering whether . MR. ENNS: I can make that available to honourable members if they want, perhaps we can duplicate that. MR. ADAM: I am just wondering whether members of the opposition will require SMYs from each department. I have it broken down. MR. ENNS: We can do that at any particular department , or division that you ask for, but I think if I may , Mr. Chairman, I think that kind of information is of particular interest and note to members if notable changes have occurred in the department from one year to the other year.

It's obvious that in the Department of Highways, little or no changes have occurred from the year just previous when they had the responsibility for the department and I would ask the members to take that into consideration. Just in concluding then, Mr. Chairman , on the sheets that will be made available to the members, it also indicates just where the differences occur in the breakdown of the various departments. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: There's only one question on that point. In those vacancies that there's 79 staff man years vacant, are those in the permanent positions?

They've all been as they related to permanent positions - 81 for the previous year and 79 to the permanent positions? MR. ENNS: All permanent positions, Mr. Chairman. MR. URUSKI: Very good, okay. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman , the other day I asked the Minister to indicate to us just what stage we're at in the location studies for a new bridge across the Red River linking the East Selkirk to the West Selkirk area and so on.

I wonder in asking that question whether the department can indicate to us along with that, what the traffic count is, because I think that's probably a very revealing item in itself as to the need for a more modern facility there. It doesn't have to be now, Mr. Chairman, but if that can be provided for us some time so we would have that information . MR. ENNS: Staff is taking note of that and we'll provide that information. MR. USKIW: Is there any information on location studies for another bridge? 1357

Thursday, April 27' 1978 MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , the answer I gave in the House on that question essentially can 't be elaborated on . At this point it cannot even be said that survey and design work is being done because to do that , one would have to have had the location in mind and the actual land perhaps being acquired . It's at the functional study stage where they are looking at appropriate places for that crossing to be made .

I think the department shares the concern of the member that the crossing is becoming imminently more necessary , partly because of the experience again this spring with the temporary closure of the Selkirk Bridge . MR. USKIW: Mr.

Cha irman , I simply want to suggest to the Minister tha t I know there will be a great deal of interest as to the location of another bridge having regard to the continuance or otherwise of the Lockport Bridge , but I made the suggestion , notwithstanding the question of the Lockport Bridge , that given the volume of traffic as between east and west sides of the Red River in the Selkirk area, that I think that it warrants very serious consideration of a modern approach so that we don 't have the frequent inconvenience of having to travel many extra miles in order to get to and from work on both sides- traffic moves both ways.

Many people from Selk irk work on the east side of the river and many from the east side work on the west side . It's also very difficult for the truckers , the businessmen and so on. So I would just leave it at that. but I would hope that the department and the government looks at that one in a very serious way because it has been a problem with us now for ... well , I suppose as long as that bridge has been there with the exception of the fact that the frequency of traffic is so much greater today . The next question I have, Mr. Chairman , has to do with Provincial Road 212 and 213- on Page 17.

It says Highway 212 and 213: 5 miles . Would that be a cont inuation of Garvin Avenue to the intersection of 212 and then north on 212? Is that what is meant by that reference , Mr. Chairman? MR. ENNS: On the Provincial Road . .. MR. USKIW: 212 and 213-5 miles- PR 206 Cooks Creek is the location . Now , as I would take it, Mr. Chairman , that would mean a portion of 213 up to the intersection with 212 and then north to Cooks Creek . That's correct? Then may I ask the Minister whether there has been any progress made , Mr. Chairman . Well , perhaps maybe I should leave that to the latter part of my remarks .

Is the department intending to upgrade the whole area with respect to 212 having to do with the tourist trade into the Cooks Creek Grotto and Museum , and whether the intention would be to upgrade, to make it dust-free at some point in time as between Garvin Avenue and Highway 44?

Now , I'm not suggesting that it's something that has to be done right away but I'm merely pointing out that there is a tremendous number of tourists go through that area every year and it's a very dusty situation , so that either salt application , a fairly heavy salt application or perhaps even a base coat or something like that would be the logical thing to do there , given the volume of traffic. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , the department is involved in acquiring some additional land in that general area that will enable us to upgrade the road , the facility , and it would follow that in due course the remarks of the Honourable Member from Broken head would be taken into account. I would ask the department to take a look at- I th ink by and large they do where special circumstances prevail , call for an undue amount of traffic .

The difficulty with the very heavy application of dust control material , it sometimes interferes with the ongoing maintenance of the road and we have done it in the past in those circumstances where we know that we are within a year or two of providing a surface treatment, then that consideration no longer is as great. MR. USKIW: Well , Mr. Chairman , I appreciate the point the Minister is making . It's true that some times it's better to be somewhat patient and do a proper job with respect to the surface treatment.

Could I then ask the Minister whether there is any progress on the possible relocation of 213 on the north side of Hazelridge as has been suggested by municipal people . I believe there were negotiations. Now , where are they at or what is happening there is the question , Mr. Chairman? MR. ENNS: I'm advised, Mr. Chairman , that there has been no finalization of those discussions at this time. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman , could I ask the Minister whether it's an open question or whether it's been foreclosed by the governme nt for any reason whatever?

Is it still something that should be pursued on the part of the cou ncil , the R.M. of Springfield , or is the government suggesting that it is not really interested in pursuing that course of action? MR. ENNS : Well , I think that the answer stands that the discussions aren 't closed . There appears to be some area of obligation on the part of the municipality that to date they haven't been prepared to accept in terms of taking back jurisdiction of a piece of road when we've assumed the responsib ility for the new road . But indications are from staff that it's not a matter that is closed ; it can be pu rsued.

MR. USKIW: My last question , Mr. Cha irman , has to do with I believe it's Highwa y 235 - that's t he highway through the Narrows , isn't it? Yes. Not a highway in my own

part icular const ituency but I think an important link between eastern Manitoba and western Manitoba , a highwa y that is 1358

Thursday, April 27' 1978 desperately crying for upgrading and surfacing. I believe there is a project on that one , is the re not? -(Interjection)- I see, it's just the carry -over . There is noth ing beyond that is there, Mr. Chairman? MR.ENNS: No , it's got to be done first. MR. USKIW: As I recall it, Mr.

Chairman , I believe the problem there had to do with drainage and I'm just wondering whether it's the government's intention to deal with that whole problem along 235 in a systematic way to at least partly each year upgrade it so that we would have a decent highway system through the Interlake for the many people that travel through there for tourism reasons or whatever . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, the time that the Highways budget was being worked on, the former Minister of Agriculture's concern about this road was noted as having been expressed in previous years that this road ought to receive some priorization.

I can inform the honourable member that I concur with the importance of that particular piece of road and we are hopefully embarked on a three-year program that will see the kind of improvements made to the base of that road which have to be made before the application of the surface can be done. Members that have travelled that road - the Member for St. George, I am sure , the Member for Ste. Rose - there are some serious problems that involve rather expensive rockfill applications.

There are some further problems involving the co-operation of the Water Control Department to provide drainage in the area, at least in terms of its effect on the highway. The exact dollar figure that is being spent in that area escapes me at the moment. The department hasn't got a fixed amount but I'm given to believe that it's substantial, in the order of over half-a- million dollars . MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman , I don't want to belabour it.

I'm sure the department must feel that that is a very important link to the highway system in Manitoba and I simply emphasize that we would not want to be critical of the department if they wanted to be somewhat aggressive in trying to redress that particular situation. MR. ENNS: It will be noted, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Selkirk . MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman , I might just support the comments made by the Member for Lac du Bonnet in connection with the connection west and east of Selkirk and I would hope that in the studies that are made pertaining to a different connection, bridge connection, that as much effort be made as is possible to ensure that the connection is maintained in the east-west Selkirk connection for the reasons that the member mentioned, as well as insofar as Winnipeg is concerned , on the east side of the River there is presently lots of connection and the same thing on the west side of the river.

The important connection is the east-west connection to the Selkirks , and ten miles out of the way for people to go to their place of work would be an expense and inconvenience. Secondly, I would like to just comment -though I know that it's out of the Minister's direct jurisdiction- I do have an impression that at times there is too much concern for speed as against safety. I want to say that I probably have come to realize this from experience and the change in the speed on Highway No.9 from 60 down to 50 m.p.h.

I wasn't too sure whether that was a good idea at the time , but it has worked out very very well and those that were unhappy at the time are now applauding it. I do feel that there would be very few that would want to see the speed zone changed .,t back up. But in the areas surrounding the City of Winnipeg, and there are many many highways now, where there has been heavy building take place , homes close to the highways, small children- and we still have 60 m.p.h. speed zones .

I want to specifically refer to the McPhillips road and the fact that we have a surfaced road there, possibly 30 homes in the space of one-and-one-half miles and probably 50 or 60 pre-school children and a very great and understandable concern that parents have for the speed zone, and yet it seems to be difficult sometimes for reductions of speeds to take place as though it were more important to transport, to convey traffic than to protect lives. I only mention that- I think the Minister might wish to comment- but I do think it's a question of overall policy as to how the board interprets government policy .

I would appreciate the Minister's comments on that. Specific questions I would like to then pose is insofar as the four-lane highway, No.8 highway, leading up to Winnipeg Beach and on to Gimli , how far is it intended to four-lane that highway beyond where it is at the present time? Presently it's reached the St. Andrews Airport area. I don't know how far the department intends to continue the four-laning , and is it intended to do it over a span of years? If so, how many years is it planned to continue that four -laning?

Another question I would like to pose, and I do believe that it's an area that we'll have to discuss 1Jnder Municipal Affairs . I suppose the Minister, I don't know whether the Minister is on the Land Use P~ lanning Committee or not , a committee called PLUC , but certainly the Minister of Highways has a v~...~ry important role there -(Interjection)- Yes. The same No. 9 highway that I mentioned has be'come so eaten up, nibbled away at, by egresses and ingresses, that it's becoming more and more a da•ngerous road to travel upon.

More and more subdivisions are being approved along that highway bec:ause of various pressures, more and more cars are using that highway as they pour on to the higtli way from new subdivisions that are being opened up, and the number of accidents is certainly incr·easing despite the lowering of the speed signs. So, I'd like to know, one, in general, the Minister's 1359

Thursday, April 27' 1978 view is to preventing these type of occurrences from continuing elsewhere . It's too late for No. 9, I fear ; too well nibbled at now -I don 't know what can be done at this point. Number two specifically , are there plans underway to study an alternative corridor from Selkirk into Winnipeg to avoid the dangers and the congestion and the problems of No. 9 in order to transport vehicles from Selkirk into Winnipeg rapidly? And if there are plans , what are those plans? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Highways . MR. ENNS: Well , Mr.

Chairman , firstly , let me say that I appreciate the member 's remarks with respect to the reduced speed limits on Manitoba 's highways . I'm not so sure as yet whether the public generally will be that benevolent , particularly once the summer camping season is upon us and people are off in either direction east or west , particularly on our four-laned facilities , whether or not they will appreciate the reduced speeds .

However , I concur with his overall views about it, that the experience is proving by and large reasonably successful , and I must say, being better accepted than this Minister thought would be the case. I have received a minimal of complaints.

The question of four-laning generally , the four-lane is perhaps the most expensive form of highway construction that we engage in and we have three or four areas that have just about similar patterns and densities of traffic that are receiving attention by the department, No. 8 being one of them , No. 59 another one , No.7 being another one and No. 12, tying back to the Perimeter.

In addition to that, of course , No. 75 is lurk ing on the horizon , all major expensive multi-million dollar projects involving interchanges where they come up to the Perimeter , and I can only indicate to the honourable member specifically that an additional 3.1 million miles is being completed on No. 8, Parks Creek north to PR-230, and that it will take its turn in the order of priorities as the department and as this Minister sees them arising .

The construction started last year by the previous administration is being cont inued on a similar four-lane facility for No. 7 highway, which is a badly needed improvement in that area. I indicated in rny ope.[ling remarks , and there are in the Estimates before you , moneys that will enable us to commence the four-laning of No. 12, Steinbach north to the Perimeter- to Trans Canada , pardon me, to Trans Canada .

But I think members can appreciate that on the overall budget , even with the amount of dollars that we're talking about, the department has to portion out the work , and in some cases stretch out the work even though we perhaps would like to do it sooner . But in fairness to other regions of the province , the north, the city, and the large number of rural roads that the Member for Ste. Rose, the Member for Virden still would like to see built, we cannot allocate an inordinate amount of moneys to these major projects .

But they are proceeding and I think that a few years down the line , four or five years down the line , there will be major improvements in these high density traffic areas. The member made comment about the situation of No. 9 highway ; I suppose it is the prime example of no planning over the years , and I hold no specific government to task or responsibility for that. And I must tell you that in the Department of Highways we see no particular way of improving that situation in the immediate foreseeable future.

We hope that perhaps the improvement on the No. 8, the McPhillips , will in some cases be of some help but we appreciate that a large number of persons will continue to use No. 9 and it is simply a built up area all the way . MR. PAWLEY: Is there any thought being given to an alterna tive corridor beyond No.9? I want to first assure the honourable member that I wasn't pressing for a speed-up in the proposals re the four laning on No. 8, because I accept that the department has plans there . I certainly am not saying that that should be comp leted to Winnipeg Beach over the next year, two , three years .

It was only a question of interest as to the progress , I'm not pressing for any speed-up in that project. I'm more concerned really about whether there are any thoughts as to preparing a study for an alternative corr idor into Winnipeg from Selkirk , as an alternative to No. 9. MR. ENNS: I am advised , Mr.

Chairman , that while there are no immed iate or specific plans that I could indicate to the honourable members of this Committee , the department is always concerned about entrances to and from the city and to major traffic generating points like Selkirk , and whether or not in the future planning , part of the river crossing systems that was mentioned just a little wh ile ago , whether that can be part of an alternative , it's an ongoing kind of thing the departmen t will look at. My remarks about No. 9 though , specifically , are that it's really beyond redemption .

I know the member was talking about an alternative route rather than doing anything that would prove so disruptive that it would simply not be acceptable in terms of making No. 9 a better and freer flowing traffic artery . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden . MR. McGREGOR: Mr. Chairman , I would like to just question through you the Minister .

I see I do have a new bridge across the Assiniboine Valley and just certainly to bring him up to date , how deteriorated the bridge is there , that last summer it was cut right off , and it's well to say some of ow open roads we want , but we can always go a mile or two around on a municipal road , but there you 'r13 bottled in; you either cross it with a very limited amount of grain or you go by Oak Lake or Miniota which is huge mileage because it is a valley , it is a river , if you can't go across that , you 're rea'tly 1360

Thursday, April 27' 1978 causing a lot of mileage , and I see it is on the program and would there be a hope of it being completed as I know there's a lot of work into crossing Assiniboine Valley and the 2.6 miles . Would there be some hope of that being completed this year? Is that an impossibility on a bridge? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Minister of Highways . MR. ENNS: My Deputy Minister tells me there 's a good possibility that that can be done . I would think that the member is also aware though that in many instances some of that work on river crossings is undertaken during the winter.

What likely will happen is that the necessary approach work, and there 's difficulties with bank stabilization anywhere near the Assiniboine River, but the Deputy Minister informs me that there 's a likelihood that that project could be completed this season . MR. McGREGOR: Well , I know the old bridge is just awfully, it's just a very light tonnage can go over it, and it's the only one through , so I just ... The other one I was concerned with was, of course it's out of my territory , but it's one I'm certainly involved with , and that's on Trans Canada No. 1.

I see you've got a recapping from 250 west and our suicide corner is immediately east of 250. I hope you don 't recap that until there's some way of taking that dangerous knoll and double curveS , we brought that up to other Ministers and it's hoped whenever there 's work done that's first and foremost. MR. ENNS: I can indicate to the Honourable Member for Virden that my colleague the honourable Mr. McGill has often expressed concern about that same piece of road and we are looking at redesign to make that a safer stretch of the Trans Canada Highway .

We certainly wouldn 't be putting new dollars on top of the existing facility before some change is made. MR. McGREGOR: Knowing it will be a four-lane some years down the road, next year or the year after . MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman , depending on the general outlook of the Member for Virden , it may well have to await the completion of the highway, of No. 8 to Winnipeg Beach, or something like that. MR. McGREGOR: You say the outlook or the behaviour . The behaviour is real good, I believe . MR. ENNS: I was just making a general reference to your overall outlook on life . MR. McGREGOR: Thank you , Mr.

Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. George. MR. URUSKI: Thank you , Mr. Chairman . I shouldn 't have given up my chance to speak before when I had a few specific questions, but I've made some notes . The Minister was commenting with the Member for Lac du Bonnet on PR-235 as being a very important link. There's no doubt that the condition of the base at the time it was done should really not have been done. I don 't think there 's any disagreement there except with the Minister of the day when that road was being put through.

But I wanted to know specifically, I know that the right of way purchasing was to have been done last year, whether it's been completed and whether or not any tenders have been let on that 24 miles to date that is being upgraded? MR. ENNS: We'll take that question as notice, but while we- I just want to put on the record my specific interest in that road as well , having had the pleasure of being the Minister some 10 years ago when the initial contracts were let for that bridge for which I take some pride in.

I know that your administration completed the bridge and your Minister named it the Campbell Bridge, and I can indicate to honourable members that Mr. Campbell, the former premier, chose to drive over that bridge just last weekend on his way to Swan River and he thought it was a fine structure. Now I'd like to build the approaches just as well , both sides.

But again , we're talking considerable amount of mileage in an area that road building isn't easy and I have instructed the department, or asked the department, to forego perhaps , even if it means stretching the program or reducing the distances that can be undertaken in any given year, but to do the job properly which includes in many instances a fair bit of rock fill to provide the base. MR.

URUSKI: For the Minister, he may very well be aware, a stretch of 235 was about two feet under water for some two or three months a year or so ago and I know the department now has conducted that two mile of rock fill and has covered the Dog Lake Pass fairly well and I must say there's no doubt it's holding, so that is of course one of the worst areas. But the whole road of cours as you have indicated , has to be upgraded in terms of a good solid base.

But in that same vicinity we have the Dog Creek Indian Reservation and there were discussions and negotiations last year between the Reserve and the department for upgrading of I believe it was some three miles of road from PR.235 to the business

section on the Reserve and with the lateness in time and the band not being sure whether they had the necessary funds for the cost sharing , I'd like to ask the Minister what negotiations have been, whether they have been completed , whether that work is going to continue and also in that vein , what the government policy will be with respect to negotiating with the Reserve for the possible 1361

Thursday, April 27' 1978 extension of PR.417 which goes west from Eriksdale and ends at the Reserve, sort of right at the lake with noth ing being the re. ln my mind , the logical extension would be a renegotiation with the Reserve for the right of way and making that a PR as it should be to complete a necessary link west of Eriksdale . MR. ENNS: We have some difficult ies with respect to the earlier comme nts by the member having to do with the road bu ilding on the Reserve proper .

We still have it as Highways ' policy that we require the land and there has been some difficu lties in some instances to get the necessary right of way . If the province is building aPR road , a public road , there is the delicate situation of negotiating right of way with the Indian community on Reserve land . It's been indicated to me that that has been partly the reason for some of the delay in this instance . The question of future destination of provincial road 417 is something that no doubt the department will want to consider ; we have no finalized plans in that regard at this time . MR.

URUSKI: You didn 't comment on the three miles that I mentioned that was under negotiation . Could he indicate whether the band has committed itself to putt ing up their share of the funds and will that project go ahead this year from PR.235 south to the business

section of that public community . MR. ENNS: My indication is that it's not a question so much of funds , it's a question of right of way . MR. URUSKI: I thought that that matter had been resolved , but the Minister indicates there has been - I thought there was a resolution on file from the band that they are prepared to give the necessary right of way at least for these three miles .

If that is not the case, I'd like to know because I believe the band itself have ind icated to me, at least the Chief and some of the councillors have indicated to me that they would be prepared to turn over the necessary right of way . If the Minister says that certainly has not been communicated to the department , I'd like to know that. MR. ENNS: Mr. Cha irman , I would invite the Honourable Member for St. George to be in contact with myself or members of the department , but the current indication is that there has been some change of mind on the Reserve with respect to granting highways right of way .

The member may not be aware of that and I cannot say for certain if that is in fact the case or whether there is just a misunderstanding at the momen t, but the advice that I receive is that that is principally the reason for the delay , it's not a quest ion of funds in this instance . We would be prepared to go on the 50-50 basis that we enter into with any other municipality or LGD or with the Indian Reserve in question . MR. URUSKI: Fine, thank you . I have several other questions. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I wonder if I could just interrupt.

I certain ly welcome the ranging discussion that we're having and have no desire to change it, recognizing that we could be I suppose talking these questions on the construction program , but that's no difficulty with a proviso that perhaps we get those questions asked that we want to get asked and answered and then move on . MR.

CHAIRMAN: To the members of the Committee and the Minister of Highways , we have a very good group of persons question ing you here and I am sure that when they have had their kick at the cat we'll knock off a lot of items very quickly , and I have found particularly with dealing with the Member for Lac du Bonnet that if we have a gentleman 's agreement that we'll scatter all over the waterfront and then we'll pass the estimates . The Member from St. George . MR. URUSKI: I have a number of other comments I wish to make , Mr.

Chairman , and I would like to impress upon the Mi nister that one area, although it is not wit hin my constituency, it is within the Minister 's constituency , and that relates to PR.228 from Inwood to Narcisse which has been upg raded over the last number of years but there is the final touches of the asphalt surface treatme nt that has to be completed .

This area of course serves as the major bus route and transportation lin k for all the commun ities all the way from Jack head and Fisher River through to Hodgson , Fisher Branch , and the area south , and that is the only stretch on that road that requires any surfacing to complete the north-south link with Teulon and No. 7 Highway . I hope the Minister , and I am sure he will, keep that in mind and look at that in future years .

I'd like to also comment on PR.325, west of Ashern to PR.235, I presume , and I wasn 't aware of that until a year or two ago , that in order for that highway to take a surfacing that that highway has to be upgraded once again , that there is required right of way to widen the uighway before it can take the necessary surfacing that would give it a dust free link with PR.235 and of course The Narrows and the west side . There is a lot of traff ic from Ashern west linking with Ste.

Rose and Dauphin , and there 's no doubt that that road is sort of the other link of joining the west side of the province with the Inter lake area.

I'd like to ask specifically to the Minister whether or not the road that was upgraded west of Fisher Branch and northward , the stretch of six miles west of Fisher Branch has been upgraded two years ago and there is the stretch that goes north to PR.325 in the , what is known as the Fisherton area, whether any work will be done on the north-south stretch this year and whether or not the department is cons idering to . .. really logically would be to extend that as a provincial road 233 and 1362

Thursday, April 27' 1978 ending at provincial road 325 linking that up with the eastern portion of 233 which ends at Fisher Branch . . As well I' d like to ask the Minister whether in future considerations there is any thought being g1ven to an east-west, another east-west link in the central portion of the Interlake virtually from Fisher Branch to Riverton , namely PR.329.

I know there was some thought to look at PR.329 from PTH.16 to at least PR.326 where that portion of road, I would say some 16 miles, requires8 and is relatively in poor shape , at least six to eight miles is in relatively poor shape over the years. I know that was at one time a municipal road when the province took it over, there has been a little bit of upgrading in some portions of it but the western portions of that road I would hope that the department and the Minister would look at that. I'd like to comment on another road that is on the carryover program and that is PR.226.

I am pleased that that is on the program and continued on for upgrading . There are several bad curves in that highway that I hope will be straightened out along with the bridge across the Icelandic River because that area there has been over the years almost a death trap to many motorists, because it happens that the bridge is right in the middle of the curve and there have been a number of cars ending up in the Icelandic River on numerous occasions, so I am pleased that that work is going to go on and I would hope that stretch of road will be straightened out.

I am pleased as well that the Minister and the department are considering at least in the new program , even though that is the only stretch of road in the program with in the northern Interlake, and that is PR.234, the purchase of right of way from north of Riverton towards the Pine Dock Matheson Island way . That road no doubt has given and caused the department many concerns over the years and I presume that that will be the beginning of a long term upgrading program. One other area that I wanted to comment on and that is the area of PTH.7 which is presently under construction from the Perimeter to Stonewall.

I presume that with the cost of the reconstruction of the road . . .

I wanted to have one specific and to ask whether within the purchasing of the right of way and the properties whether the department had to reconstruct a home in the vicinity as I see one brand new home that was constructed in the last two or three years and several hundred feet to the east of it another brand new home of the same design and same type is being reconstructed, and I presume of course because of the widening, this would have had to occur and I guess, when the Member for Selkirk had commented earlier, no matter how well you might want to plan your highways the problem of sprawl and distance away from right of ways will always pose a problem to the reconstruction and upgrading of highways .

MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, George laid a lot on me in terms of his concerns about the road.l'd like to say that I appreciate his acknowledgment that the carry on programs are in fact onstream and carrying on. The number of roads that he's mentioned will certainly and many of them he was putting on the record is concern for future development of these roads and I don't think there's any question that as time and moneys permit, the development of these roads will take place . I remind the honourable member that I am very much a fellow lnterlaker and drive these roads as well.

He specifically asked about the PTH No. 228 and I would indicate to him that there is a considerable amount of work being done on the eastern portion of that road . The particular area that he has brought to the attention of the committee has also been brought to my attention on several occasions . As he indicated , it is the northern extremity of my own constituency .

We are aware that the piece of road in question is ready for actual surface treatment and my department advises that while it isn't specifically listed on the program at this time , it's that kind of a piece of road that can be undertaken if we find a roadblock or delay somewhere else, it's one that can be considered. I can indicate to the honourable member that that kind of consideration is being given by that road . By sheer coincidence, the federal member, the Honourable Mr. Peter Masniuk, has also expressed an interest in that road.

Whether or not it has anything to do with an upcoming federal election has nothing to do . . . but it may just be possible that in this instance at least the federal member would have no objections to being associated with a provincial minister in this coming election . In any event, we'll watch that road with interest and report progress . The honourable member indicated a particular interest in the some of the practices wit_h respect to land acquisition and/or building removal, or the buil~ing of bu_il~ings, on No. 7 Highway.

I'm informed that it is not the Department of Highways to build houses 1f, m fact, there were new houses built it could well come from funds made available as a result of having ex.oropriated yards or homesites and the member is aware that it was a costly procedure in acquiring t~at right of way in the sense that there was fairly severe disruption, some farm yards were s_everely d!sturb~d and md~ed houses had to be moved off of property . This, of course , was taken mto cons1derat1on at the t1me compensation was made. . Mr.

Chairman, I take the rest of the honourable member's comments as stated.! would ask h1m to continue giving me his loyal support as an opposition member, when I seek the necessary funds to bui ld these roads over the next 12 or 16 years, that he will continue to see that the necessary funds are allocated to the Department of Highways to do that. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Gr George . MR. iJRUSKI: 1 thank the Minister . I will try to have him do likewise for me in a much sooner time 1363

Thursday, April 27' 1978 frame than he is talking about . 1 did want to make one further comment dealing with the comments made by the Member for Selkirk in terms of delay in payouts and dealing with land acquisition and the like .

I'm wondering whether the depart~ent itself is faced with problems dealing with the f_ inalleg~l survex that has to be done in terms of havtng that legal survey betng accepted by the Land Tttles Offtce.l beltevethat there is a bit of professional, if I may call it professional jealousy, by the registered surveyors wit~in the Province of Manitoba and that they require that the necessary legal surveys be done by a regtstered surveyor . Is that at all causing any delay or any problems or is that just part of the whole process? MR. ENNS: It's been indicated to me that that is certainly part of the delay .

I might also point out that it's a requirement of the Manitoba Land Survey Act that these kind of surveys be undertaken by registered surveyors . I'm also informed that it's the actual registration of property that further adds to the delay .

Now , whether or not this really needs to hold up final settlement , is a question well put , particularly in instances where there is no contention , where there is agreement with the former landowner and the new landowner- in this instance the Department of Highways- and where there is no contest or potential court case looming and where , perhaps through a simple signature , you know , removing any further obligations from the Department of Highways upon receipt of the final figures, whether or not there can't be a method of cutting some of the time down or cutting down through some of the tape .

That's a worthwhile question that I think we should examine. I think I can indicate to you that , and you 're perhaps aware I do this with kindness to my fellow Minister in Mines and Resources who is responsible for water control. Water Control probably has even a greater difficulty in this particular area than Highways. At least, that has been some of my experience with some of my constituents that there have indeed been delays of upwards to 8 and 9 years or 12 years, as the Honourable Member for Brokenhead indicates .

I think that's unconscionable and unless there is a legal reason , a legal reason why that 's the case, it's difficult for me to comprehend and I'll charge my Deputy Minister , Mr. Joseph Brako , who has otherwise proved himself reasonably efficient on Tuesdays and Thursdays to undertake that task to see whether we can't speed up that process . MR. CHAIRMAN: To the Minister of Highways , I might tell him , even though we're getting late in the afternoon that the member to my right is from the constituency of Lac du Bonnet now and not Brokenhead but you would have been right in the '50s. The Member for St.

George . Okay. The Member for Ste. Rose and then Lac du Bonnet. MR. ADAM: Mr. Cha irman , the list that is provided to us of the SMYs, shows increases of staff and in a couple of instances there are transfers of staff from one department , within the department, to .. . Are there any decreases in staff in any of the departments? MR. ENNS: Well, the decreases , I think, are noted in the breakdown at the bottom of those overall figures . MR. ADAM: Well , Mr. Chairman , it says staff increases or maybe I'm not understanding this correctly. MR. ENNS: It works out to be a net increase of ten.

There was an overall increase in permanent staff of 12 SMYs with a reduction of 2 SMYs within the departments for a net increase of 10. These are permanent staff man years. MR. ADAM: Could the Minister advise when the wage agreement was completed in 1977? Is there a wage agreement contract completed in 1977 with staff? MR. ENNS: I'm informed that the old contract expired on or about March 27th o

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-2-30a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 2nd hansardpdf 30a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	2241a3a6ff885c5f571774a70df0600771e0df71

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