Manitoba Hansard — 9 May 1973 (Sitting 93, 29th Legislature, 5th Session)

29-5-93

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2:3 0 o'clock, Wednesday, May 9, 1973 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS 2537 MR. SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the loge on my right where we are pleased to have as our guest this afternoon the Honourable Mr. Eiling Kramer, Minister of Highways and Transportation for the Province of Saskatchewan. Mr. Kramer is visiting our Minister of Highways, the Honourable Mr. Burtniak, on his way to a meeting of the Roads and Transportation Ass ociation being held in Toronto.

On behalf of all the honourable members I welcome you here today. I should also like to direct the attention of the honourable members to the gallery where we have 30 students of Grade 5 standing of the Cranberry Portage School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Kostynyk. This school is located in the constituency of the Honour able Member for Flin Flon. And we also have 60 students of Grade 9 standing of the John Gunn Junior High School. These students are under the direction of Mr. Hilderman and Mr. Ferman.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for _Transcona, the Minister of Labour, On behalf of all the honourable members I welcome you here today. Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees;· Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports; Notices of Motion. TABLING OF REPORTS MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour, HON, RUSSELL PA ULLEY (Minister of Labour) (Transcona): Mr.

Speaker, may I, on behalf of the Honourable the Minister of Highways, present a Return from an Order of the House No. 2, Manitoba Telephone System. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills; Oral Questions, The Honour able Leader of.the Liberal Party. STATEMENT MR. I. H, (Iizy) ASPER (Leader of the Liberal Party) (Wolseley): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. May I have leave of the House to make a non-political statement? MR, SPEAKER: Agreed? (Agreed) MR.

ASPER: May I call on this Legislature to join me and the people of Winnipeg in extending the congratulations of this House to three students of Gordon Bell High School who have captured for the second consecutive year the national mathematics championship of Canada. This is not only a great distinction and honour to come to the constituency of Wolseley, but to the school itself which--and I suppose to the Department of Education of Manitoba which has allowed Gordon Bell to be used as an experimental school in many new types of study.

To show how progressive and experimental that school is, the principal has in his office a picture of leading Canadian politicians of all three political parties, and one of the young students in volved in capturing for the second consecutive year the award for Gordon Bell is none other than one Martin Green, who has a relative relationship with this Legislature, Mr. Speaker.

So on behalf of all members, I have written to Gordon Bell, assu ming that we would have concurrence in such a motion of congratulations, to extend the congratulations to the three students whose names are Bill Leslie, Martin Green and Matt Ellis. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR, SPEAKER: Oral questions. The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. MORRIS McGREGOR (Virden): Mr. Speaker, I would just like to not necessarily correct the press, but yesterday you heard me say, 1 .addressed the First Minister as a sneaky fellow.

I really meant that in the very lightest of vein and I certainly didn •t mean it in the in tent many people who read the Winnipeg Fre,e Pre.ss might have termed it as, because I respect my First Minister and I did it because it was on the spur of the moment; he did sneak in when I wasn't watching him; so in that term I leave. it there. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister.

2538 May 9, 19 73 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD HON, EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, the honourable mem ber's explanation is easy to accept because I felt all along that he did mean it in a bantering manner. I myself have a very definite term of endearment which I use-..:.term of affection which I use in relation to my honourable friend, but it•s not even printable. Nevertheless it is a term of affection. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR, McGREGOR: Mr.

Speaker, I address this question to either the First Minister - no, I'll change again - I'm a bit of a switch hitter, I guess - directly to the Minister of High ways. The highways program being well under way in my area and many others, when is he going--the question being, Sir: when is he going to announce the program? It•s obvious we won't get to his Estimates, I would suggest. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Highways) (Dauphin): Well, Mr.

Speaker, I believe the Member for Virden has been in the House long enough to know that when the Depart ment of Highways• Estimates or any department's Estimates come up, and particularly this refers to the Highways Department, that when the Estimates come up at that time the highways program is distributed in the House. MR. McGREGOR: A supplementary then, Mr. Speaker. But these roads are being built. I•m being asked "is it?" And I say, 11Well you look, the ••• MR, SPEAKER: Question please. MR. McGREGOR: " ••• contractors are there and the Minister hasn't announced it. just say I think he should tamp the gun.

MR , BURTNIAK: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure what the honourable member is trying to put across but, as you know, from time to time, from year to year certain programs are announced and are not finished within that year. So there are certain programs that were announced last year and were not finished, are to be continued this year, and then again, for the honourable member's information, we have a $12 million free advertising program which was announced a long time ago, and these may be some of the programs that he's talking about. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wolseley, Leader of the Liberal Party. MR.

ASPER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question, I think, should be directed to the House Leader but in his absence to the acting House Leader. The question -- (Interjection) -- 1 haven't begun. The question, Mr. Speaker, is: when will the government introduce the new Civil Service Act that was referred to in the Speech from the Throne? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR, PAULLEY: The answer could be 11soon11, Mr. Speaker, but I want to tell my honourable friend I issued instructions to the legislative counsel to proceed with the bill today. MR. ASPER: Because of the widespread interest, Mr.

Speaker, could the Minister also indicate whether that bill will clearly permit leave of absence to be granted to Crown corpor ation employees and/or civil servants to participate in public affairs by running for office in Manitoba? MR, PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure had my honourable friend been around for a few years instead of a few months, he would agree that it would be inappropriate for me to reveal the contents of a bill that has not reached consideration stage at this time. MR.

ASPER: Can the Minister then at least give an indication or assurance to the House that the bill will be presented this session for debate and passage? MR. P AULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don't know whether I was clear or not. I indicated to my honourable friend, Mr. Speaker, that I have. issued instructions for the proceedings in connection with the bill today, and hopefully it will be given every consideration at this session. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. HENRY J, EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture.

In view of the announcement he has made known that he is investi gating the prices of fertilizer, can the Minister indicate .whether the Combines Investigation Branch of the Federal Government and seizing of the account books of all major Canadian fertilizer companies is going to materialize? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I•m led to believe that that is the case, but again, that's based on reportson the CBC network. I have

May 9, 19 73 2539 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MR. USKIW cont'd) ••••• not checked myself to find out whether that in fact is so. But if the news media is correct it would be the case, The question of Manitoba•s report is one which will be available fairly soon for the people of Manitoba to consider, hopefully, some time by the end of this month, But nevertheless it is not a time frame within which one could consider implications for the farm community at this point in time or for this year. · While I'm on my feet, Mr. Speaker, I would like to give somewhat of a

summary answer to a number of questions put on the question of filling of dugouts and the pumping units that are available across the province to assist in particular our livestock producers.

I want to report that we•ve had one pumping unit in operation in the tiorthwest region of the province for a month in the Swan River and Minitonas area, presently in the Benito area, One pump has been oper ating in the western area of the province at Virden and it's presently at Hamiota, This pump has also been operating for approximately one month, One farmer-owned pump is operating with department-supplied pipe in Melita and has been operating for two weeks, One pump operated at the Starbuck area for a two week period as well.

This particular one is a rental arrangement, The pumps are being allocated on the basis of need of the applicant and the distance required to move them, There is a charge of $100, 00 per dugout, and the rest, Mr, Speaker, is not important; itrs technical detail. MR, EINARSON: Mr. Speaker, I thatik the Minister for his information on this topic. Can he indicate what is the maximum distance that those pumps will move water? MR, USKIW: I may have that here, Mr, Speaker, I•ll check through the technical part of it. No it doesn't give me those figures, Mr. Speaker. I don't have that answer handy.

MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon, MR. THOMAS BARROW (Flin Flon): I direct this question to the Minister of Social Services, Mr. Speaker. I know that you received a brief from the people of Cranberry re garding some type of hospital facilities. Have you given this brief any consideration? MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health, HON, RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Health and Social Development) (Springfield): Mr.

Speaker, I did receive a brief from some concerned citizens in Cranberry Portage in regards to health facilities and related social services, and the brief is being given consider ation, and as far as the policy of this government pertaining to decentralization of staff, and addition in facilities to render service on a district basis, While I•m on my feet, Mr, Speaker, I would like to answer two questions asked of me by the Member for Wolseley, the Leader of the Liberal Party, And this is in regards to Con cordia Hospital.

The member asked, and actually my colleague the Minister of Labour may be as concerned, if not more concerned: does Concordia have a 30 percent vacancy? The answer is, in 19 72 Concordia had a 74 percent occupancy rate. The second question: does Concordia have 30 percent higher costs than other hospitals in Manitoba? The answer is no. The per diem at Concordia is $53, 90. At comparable hospitals such as Witikler and Selkirk, the per diem is $49, 20 and $52, 10 respectively. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson.

MR, JOSEPH P, BOROWSKI (Thompson): Mr, Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister, I wonder if he could indicate why Medicare is paying for abortions being performed in New York where they have abortions on demand and have had for a couple of years, MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister, MR, SCHREYER: Well, Mr.

Speaker, my understanding - and it's a firm understanding - is that the Health Services Commission in this province as in other provinces of Canada, pays for those therapeutic abortion procedures that are permitted under Canadian law, and if it is a procedure that is performed by a medical doctor extraterritorially to Canada, it must be in accordance with the same procedures criteria, and if there is some aspect of this that is known to my honourable friend that is different than what I have said, I hope he would bring it to our attention because that is not, it would not be the policy to allow for anything beyond that.

MR, BOROWSKI: Mr. Speaker, in view of the Minister of Health's • MR, SPEAKER: Question please. MR, BOROWSKI: ••• statements yesterday that they do pay • MR. SPEAKER: Question please.

2540 May 9, 19 73 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD MR. BOROWSKI: Well, Mr.

Speaker, if you will allow me the same courtesy you allow others I will put the bloody question, In view of the Minister of Health •s admission in this House that they are paying for abortions in New York based on New York doctors• decision and in view of the Premier's commitment a year and a half ago that New York abortions would not be paid for, would you mind telling us why ••• MR, SPEAKER: Order please, Order please, May I indicate to the honourable member that prefacing a question which is going to create a debate is not allowed, It's not allowed, Would the honourable member rephrase his question?

The Honourable Minister of Health state his matter of privilege, MR. TOUPIN: Mr, Speaker, I only wish the Honourable Member for Thompson would quote me accurately.

If he waited at least to read what was said -- (Interjection) -- I •m on a point of privilege, The honourable member indicated a falsehood of what I said in the House yesterday, and that is my point of privilege, The honourable member quotes me as saying that I accepted pay for abortions performed in New York based on ••• MR, SPEAKER: Order, please, MR, TOUPIN: , , , based on the regulations and the laws of New York, and that is completely false, What I said in the House yesterday was that we'd pay for any abortions performed in the world as long as they were according to the provisions of the Criminal Code, MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please, The honourable member is offering an explanation, not a matter of privilege, Does the Honourable Member for Thompson wish to rephrase his question? MR, BOROWSKI: I am rising on a point of privilege, if you don't mind, MR, SPEAKER: The honourable member state his matter of privilege, MR, BOROWSKI: The Minister has accused me of falsehood and I am asking you to ask him to retract that statement, as you have forced us to retract on this side, MR, SPEAKER: My

interpretation of what was said was an explanation and a matter of opinion, not a statement of anyone stating something false, Therefore I don•t believe that the matter of privilege exists, The Honourable Member for Thompson, MR. BOROWSKI: Mr. Speaker, tbe Minister has accused me of making a falsehood in this House and I ask for an apology and a retraction because I had to give one yesterday. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister, MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, speaking to the point of privilege, I think it is necessary for you to determine, Sir, whether or not the Minister of Health indicated that the Member for Thompson's

interpretation was a wrong

interpretation or a false

interpretation, which would be one matter, or whether he accused the honourable member of uttering a falsehood, In the latter case I would agree, Sir, that propriety of tbe House would require that that be retracted, The Honourable Member for Thompson would have an absolutely valid point of privilege, Unfortunately, Sir, as to whether the Honourable Minister of Health said that it was a false

interpretation or a falsehood is not in my clear recollection, but one does demand an apology, the other one does not, and it is up to you, Sir, perhaps to get the record of Hansard in order to clear that up, The Honourable the Minister of Health perhaps could save us time if he did say that it was a falsehood to retract that, tbat that would be an impropriety. MR, SPEAKER: I would concur with the Honourable First Minister, My recollection was that there was an explanation. Whether the statement was that it was a falsehood or a false

interpretation I cannot recall, The Honourable Minister of Health maybe may explain. MR, TOUPIN: Mr, Speaker, Mr. Speaker, tbe impressions left with the Honourable Member for Thompson in regard to my remarks yesterday can be proven by reading Hansard and that, Sir, you will decide by seeing Hansard yourself. I said that the Honourable Member for Thompson falsely represented my remark here today that I made yesterday in the House pertaining to abortions performed outside of Manitoba. And I still stand by that unless cor rected by what is written in Hansard, MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MR.

JAMES H, BILTON (Swan River): This is where our problems are developing day after day after day. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR, BILTON: Surely the Minister will co-operate with you, Mr. Speaker. Why wouldn•t he withdraw that remark? He•s already -- (Interjection) -- and at tbe advice of the

May 9, 1973 2541 ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (MR, BILTON cont'd) , , •• , First Minister, Surely he doesn't need any higher advice, In the interests of this House he has· thee responsibility and he should withdraw on behalf of the Honourable Member for Thompson,. MR, SPEAKER: I appreciate all the contributions of a:ll the honourable members but I believe--Order, please • , , but I believe we would probably proceed much more effectively if we· had less prefacing which are the things that provoke the various discussions and debates.

We are under the question period, Oral questions are allowed; I hope they will be direct and explicit, The· Honourable Membecr for Thompoon, MR, BOROWSKI: Mr, Speaker, I rise for the last time on a point of privilege, Obviously the Minister does net want to' withdraw and you are not forcing him, I simply want to indicate to you that I do not intend0to be guided by your double rulings in this House, MR, SPEAKER: Oral questions', The Honourable Member for Assiniboia, MR, STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia)'- Mr, Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Labour; In view of his statement the other day that the grocery strike may be averted, can he report to the House if there is· any. progress being made in this, area?

MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour, MR, PAULLEY: Mr, Speaker, I•m very happy to report that the participants in the dis pute are meeting constantly, I have been in touch with some of them and they have indicated to me that they will continue their censultations one with the other, and also they are aware of the offer that I make as Minister of Labour, that if they feel that I should appoint a conciliation officer that they were prepared to accept it, And I hope, Mr, Speaker, that the parties will continue talking to one another and resolve their difference, MR, PATRICK: I've a.question for the Minister of.Education � Mr, Speaker, I believe this question was0taken as notice some time ago. in his absenee, I see the Minister in his seat, Can J, ask him, was Mr, Gil Burrows, who was an NDP candidate in the last Federal Election; was he on salary while he was away from his· duties and a candidate?

MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education, HON, BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education) (Burrows): No, Mr, Speaker, MR, PATRICK: Supplementary, Did he receive a consultant•s fee for that period while he was away? MR, HANUSCHAK: No; Mr,. Speaker, MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR, J, DOUGLAS WATT (Arthur)! We are still in the question period, Mr, Speaker? I direct a question, Mr, Speaker, to the First-- pardon me, to the Minister of Highways, when he gets through discussing with my colleague over there. Mr.

Speaker, my question arises out of a--the question is in regard to provincial roads and it arises out of a press report this morning, and I read •• , MR, SPEAKER: Order, please, I believe the honourable member is aware that we do not quote press· reports, The Honourable Member for Arthur, MR, WATT: I'll try a new approach, Mr, Speaker, As the press report indicates that the municipalities are either delighted with conditions. of municipal roads or they are not in favour ••• MR, SPEAKER: Question please? Question please, Would the honourable member place his question?

MR, WATT: Lask the Minister of Highways this question, Did he read and consider the resolution presented by the Rural Municipal Convention last fall. which reads as follows: MR, SPEAKER: Order, please., That•s not necessary, MR, WATT: May I not read.from.ancofficial0.document? MR0 SPEAKER: No, MR, WATT: This is not a press report thifr is· an official document0 MR, SPEAKER : No, Order, please, It is out of order, MR, WATT: Then I simply ask the.

Minister -- (Interjection) -- is he still of the opinion that the municipalities in the Province of Manitoba are delighted, as he stated yesterday, with the conditions of provincial roads throughout the Province of Manitoba? MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways, MR, BURTNIAK: Mr, Speaker, first of all I am not aware of any resolution; it certainly wasn•t presented to me, and I don't know whether or not they are delighted or whatever, but

ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. BURTNIAK cont•d) ••••• I'm sure that they•re quite happy, MR. WATT: Pm prepared to table ••• May 9, 1973 MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Would the honourable member ask a question? The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. MR. DAVID R, BLAKE (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, my question is directed to the Honourable the Minister of Education.

Last week he took as notice a question I put to him in regard to the Rolling River School Division and I wondered if he had an answer on the other school divisions that were appraised by his department, if any others were found to have been in receipt of an overpayment of per pupil grant? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education, MR, HANUSCHAK: At the time, Mr. Speaker, I've indicated, but none to my knowledge, and there still are none to my knowledge who received overpayment of grants. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, I rise on a Point of Privilege of the House.

POINT OF PRIVILEGE MR. TOUPIN: I certainly offended the House by accusing a member of falsehood. I withdraw that statement, I only accuse a member of not interpreting my remarks correctly. ORAL QUESTIONS Cont•d MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon, MR, BARROW: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct this question to the Minister of Education. This question pertains to the Frontier Collegiate School. It•s a conservative school and of course allowed students on the fence. Are there any chance of getting that fence removed, Sir? MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education, MR. HANUSCHAK: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I•ve no intention of sitting on the Frontier Collegiate•s fence at Cranberry Portage, but may I remind the honourable member that the relationship between the Department of Education and an official trustee and any of his staff is no different than that between a Department of Education and any other school board. At the present time, I•m not quite sure whether it•s mandatory that a school board fence school properties or whether there's merely legislation within the School Act allowing the expenditure of funds for the construction of school fences if a school board should so decide.

However, whichever it may be, Mr, Speaker, the official trustee and the Superintendent of the School Division did discuss this matter and he is quite well aware of my views and my attitude toward fences, particularly fences of a style and design thai may be found to be offensive to the people of the community, and I am sure that the Frontier School Division administration will act accordingly in the very near future, MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR.

SCHREYER: Mr, Speaker, yesterday the Honourable the Leader of the Opposition, the Member for Riel, I believe, and the Member for Lakeside asked a series of questions relative to the DC transmission line and as to whether or not the use of mercury arc technology was causing undue problems in power transmission.

I undertook to ascertain the facts and I can advise my honourable friends that valve groups 1 and 2 are installed and functioning, Some minor difficulties were being experienced and they have been progressively overcome, and the transmission system, valve groups 1 and 2 mercury arc, is already transmitting in the order of 500 megawatts of DC power and valve group 3 is expected to be commissioned some time later this month, and valve group 4 some time May of next year, by which time there will be approximately a 1, OOO megawatt transmission capability.

I can also advise the Honourable the Member for Lakeside and the Leader of the Opposi tion that their question yesterday as to whether Mr. Cass-Beggs was responsible for the utilization of mercury arc and the problems associated therewith, that I am advised that the decision as to the utilization of mercury arc was taken in August of 1967. So if my honourable friends want to smear they had better smear themselves. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. McGREGOR: Mr, Speaker, again I direct a question to the Minister of Highways.

Have any contracts for highway construction been let in Manitoba during the past six weeks

May 9, 1973 2543 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. McGREGOR cont'd) ••••• for projects which have not received the approval of this Assembly? MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. MR, BURTNIAK: Mr. Speaker, no way. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR, ASPER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Honourable Minister of Health, and it relates to the answer he gave to the question put yesterday on Concordia Hospital vacancy rate. In view of the fact that the hospital facilities of the province are being over taxed ••• MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR.

ASPER: ••• can he account, can the ••• MR, SPEAKER: Order, please. Again may I remind the honourable member that pre facing a question with an assumption which may be debatable is not permissible. Now it may be that the honourable member believes that that's correct and a fact but someone else may disagree, so let us not preface questions that way. The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: To the Minister of Health. Are the hospitals in Greater Winnipeg operating at maximum capacity with the exception of Concordia Hospital? MR, TOUPIN: Mr.

Speaker, I believe that such a question could have been posed the other day but since it wasn1t and since I didn't take that part of the question posed today as notice, Jill undertake to have an answer brought forward to the honourable members during my Estimates. MR, ASPER: Has the Minister of Health examined and can he make an explanation why the occupancy rate at Concordia Hospital is only 74 percent, I believe he said, and 26 percent below capacity? MR, TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, that too, if the honourable member remains in the House, could be explained during my Estimates. MR, ASPER: Mr.

Speaker, to the Minister of Health. In the light of the 26 percent vacancy figure he's indicated to the House, can he explain why it is his government's policy to expand the hospital facilities in Manitoba in Greater Winnipeg? MR, TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, there will be details given, not only pertaining to Concordia Hospital, but other hospitals in Manitoba pertaining to capital expenditures that have been committed over the last few years and what is projected in the future, and hopefully that that will answer the largest part of the question of the Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party.

MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J, WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, I have a question of the Honourable the First Minister. I wonder if the Honourable the First Minister can advise the House and the people of Manitoba, are we going to face a Spring, a Summer or a Fall election? MR, SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, the answer in short is no. That date has not yet been ascertained. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR, HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Speaker, further to my reply to the question put to me by the Honourable Member for Flin Flon, it's been drawn to my attention that there is a piece of legislation entitled The Boundary Lines and Line Fences Act, and it contains a provision within it--well

Section 41, that where adjoining owners or occupiers of land disagree as to what is a lawful fence, that they may appoint fence viewers to resolve the issue. So I may ask the parties concerned to appoint fence viewers to deal with this matter. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR, WATT: Mr. Speaker, on the point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Would the honourable member state his point of order. MR. WATT: The Minister has asked me ••• to one of the backbenchers of the govern- ment. Is the Minister answering a question to one of the backbenchers of the government? MR, HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker.

MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. WATT: Well, Mr. Speaker, on the point of order then. The other day we were accused in the House by the First Minister of prolonging the question period, that we were deliberately extending the question period far and beyond what it ever had been in other administrations before.

2544 May 9, 1973 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Would the honourable member state his point of order. MR. WATT: My point of order is why has the Minister not taken these matters up in caucus rather than taking up the time of the Opposition to ask questions of the government? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. To begin with that is not a point of order. The pro cedures of this House are that the Speaker will recognize all members equally. I hope I am doing that. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, can I ask the Honourable Minister of Education why he hasn't answered the correspondence to the Honourable Member for Flin Flon? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Honourable Member for Riel asked a series of questions as to whether or not there was a drawdown on Lake Winnipeg and the trib utaries of Lake Winnipeg which would be causing future problems this summer relative to hydro generation.

I undertook to check and can advise my honourable friend the Member for Riel, in his absence, that Manitoba Hydro is represented on the Lake of the Woods Control Board by virtue of having one member on it. There is one from Ontario and two from the Government of Canada, and the Manitoba Hydro has been making presentations to the Lake of the Woods Control Board to have reductions in the outflow of these lakes beginning actually March 1 of 1973, and made these presentations based on snow survey information.

The Lake of the Woods Control Board has passed instruments or resolutions imposing reductions in the outflow from both of the lakes in four stages, up to April the 15th, and both of these reservoirs are now flowing at minimum levels in order to respond for next winter's operations. Rainfall, as honourable members know, has been low in the area and it is anti cipated that without substantial rainfall both of these lakes will be lower than normal this summer.

The Grand Rapids Forebay is under Manitoba Hydro control and the situation there is that there •s three feet of storage left in the reservoir and it is now in what would be referred to as a normal ponding sequence. The future prospects for refilling this reservoir look satis factory. The only situation now relative to Lake Winnipeg is whether or not temporary controls will be somehow put in place this summer to ensure satisfactory water levels next winter. Insofar as Manitoba Hydro exporting power and thus drawing down reservoirs, I am advised that this is simply not the case at all. MR.

SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker ••• MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. Does the Honourable Member for Roblin have another question? MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Honourable the Minister of Transportation. I wonder if the Honourable Minister of Transportation will advise the House if he•s satisfied that all the PR roads in Roblin constituency are in good shape? MR. PAULLEY: I take offence at my honourable friend's question. I don•t know whether he was referring to transportation matters or Deputy Returning Officers. MR. McKENZIE: My error.

To the Minister of Highways. MR� BURTNI AK: Mr. Speaker, I•m sorry, I didn•t quite hear the question. MR, McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, 1111 try and rephrase the question. I wonder if the Honourable the Minister of Highways can advise the House if he •s satisfied that all the PR roads in Roblin constituency are in good condition today? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. MR. BURTNI AK: Oh, Mr. Speaker. As far as satisfying everybody, I think the honour able member should know that there•s no man on this earth has ever been able to satisfy everybody. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney.

MR. McKELLAR: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Labour. Can the people of Manitoba expect an increase in the minimum wage before October lst, 1973? MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: That is a matter, Mr. Speaker, that•s under consideration by the Minister of Labour at the present time, and he will be making a recommendation to his Cabinet and, if accepted at that particular time, it will be revealed to all of the people of Manitoba, the results of those deliberations.

May 9, 1973 2545 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. McKELLAR: I1d like to ask another question, Will this be revealed at election time? MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, if my honourable friend could tell me when the election is going to be held I would be in a better position to answer him. MR , SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Thompson. MR. BOROWSKI: Mr, Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Labour. I wonder if he could tell us whether the people who are on day parole are included in the stat.istics that he has.given us, employment and unemployment statistics for Manitoba, whether they are included in those statistics. MR.

PAULLEY: I would suggest to my honourable friend the answer to that may be found in the Dominion Bureau .of Statistics, which organization compiled the content of the statistics that are used for unemployment figures throughout .the whole of the Dominion of Canada. MR, BOROWSKI: Sir, my question is to the Minister of Industry and Commerce who is resPonsible for the provincial statistic gathering service, I believe. Could he indicate whether these people are included in the statistics that he gives us periodically in this House? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. HON. LEONARD s.

EVANS (.Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Brandon East): If the honourable member is referring to the Statistics Canada survey of employment and unemploy ment which are revealed in this House and are published in the papers from time to time, I can indicate to him that the basis of those surveys are the same right across Canada and that is, the basis is a sample survey, a scientific sample survey of households.

So households are samples .and whoever happens to live in that household and who happens to be selected as a sample will be askedJhe question whether or not they1re available for work and whether or not they're employed or unemployed. MR, BOROWSKI: I take it then that a jail would not be considered a household for the purposes of statistics gathering. MR, SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Minister of Labour. ORDERS OF THE DAY - SPEED-UP MR, PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the Honourable the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources, I beg to move, .seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Colleges and Universities, that for the remainder of.the.session the House have leave to sit in the forenoon from 10:00 a. m. to 12:30 p, m. , .in the afternoon from 2:30 p.m. to 5:30 p, m. , in the evening from 8:00 P.m. , and each sitting.to be a separate sitting, and have leave so to sit from Monday to Saturday, both.days inclusive, and that.the .Rules with respect of the 10:00 o•clock p.m. adjournment be suspended, and that government business take precedence over all other business of the House; And .that for .the remainder of the session, the operation of sub-rule (3) of Rule 88 of The Rules, Orders and Forms of Proceedings of the House be suspended, but that the report stage of any bill shall not be .taken into consideration prior to 24 hours following the presentation of.the rePort.of.the.Standing or Special Committee with respect thereto, MOTION presented.

MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. The Honourable Member for Souris-Killarney. Order, please. Does the Honourable Minister wish to introduce this? The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR , PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, in introducing this resolution, and it is a resolution that has been historically presented to the Assembly at ,this time of a session, I note that some members have indicated a wonderment as to when we're going to cease the deliberations in the House for some reason, presumed or otherwise presumed, may ••• I do want to indicate, I do just want to indicate to the House as has been done -- (Interjection) -- Well if you're wearing blinkers I can't help it. But Mr.

Speaker, I.do want to indicate that this is something that is not unusual, that the former administrations, both .Liberal.and Conservative, intro duced a similar bill and I know that I was involved with both Liberals and Conservatives, and I opposed them with the caveat that the business of the House be completed. And I give that undertaking now as I did last .year. And also, Mr. Speaker, I also give the undertaking that if acceptable to the House that this bill, or resolution, will not be invoked until the expiration of the 90 hours of deliberation for Estimates. There is no intention of doing otherwise.

2546 May 9, 1973 ORDERS OF THE DAY - SPEED-UP (MR. PAULLEY cont•

d) The motion presented this year, Mr. Speaker, is slightly different than previous motions. If you recall, Sir, when we go into separate sittings, each sitting is presumed to be a day. -- (Interjection) -- Yes, I know. -- (Interjection) -- But--oh no, that was only under the Conservative regime. Except, Mr. Speaker, when it was by agreement o:f all members of the House to complete deliberations last year. We did stay until 5:30 by unanimous consent. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. MR, PAULLEY: But Mr.

Speaker, what I want to point out is there is a difference in the motion before the House this year dealing with the question of separate sittings, When we were considering the matter in Rules Committee, the question was raised as to whether or not we would not consider the advisability of having a 24-hour period rather than a sitting presumed to be 24 hours, before dealing with the report stage from a Standing or Select committee. And that is the reason, Mr.

Speaker, that the motion that I have presented today calls for, in the second paragraph, that the report stage on any bill shall not be taken into consideration prior to 24 hours. And we mean that 24 hours literally and not, as it has been construed in the past, as meaning a separate sitting of the House. In this way, Mr.

Speaker, I think we're accom modating the desires of the House and overcoming some of the difficulties that we had encoun tered under previous administrations where each sitting was considered as being a day. - (Interjection) -- My honourable friend from Souris-Killarney I know used to join me in protest ing that particular ••• So I again, Mr.

Speaker, I say in presenting this motion it is not our intention, if acceptable by the House, to invoke it prior to the conclusion of Estimates, and also we do take into consideration objectives made previously and such objections that were considered by the Committee of Rules. MR. GORDON E, JOHNSTON (Portage la Prairie): Would you accept a question? MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. G.

JOHNSTON: Well my question to the Minister introducing the Speed-up motion is this: Have the members of the House an assurance that there will be no bills introduced after the Speed-up motion is put in? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. PAULLEY: Well Mr.

Speaker, the only answer I can give to my honourable friend, that we do not intend to proceed any differently than any other government in the Province of Manitoba has done in the past, and no government, and no government (oh, I have a word for you) and no government has ever given assurance in the line of the question of my honourable friend from Portage la Prairie, because I recall, Mr.

Speaker, last year - I believe it was last year - after the government had completed introducing its bills, a couple of private members of the Conservative Party asked me at that time in my capacity as House Leader, whether they might introduce a couple of bills because of the private nature or municipal nature. I believe the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell was one of those that asked me, as House Leader, whether I would accommodate his municipality or area, and I said "most assuredly. 11 So having done that, Mr.

Speaker, I think that I must take the position that I cannot give any guarantee to the Honourable Member for Portage la Prairie that no bills will be introduced after we've started ••• MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Liberal Party. MR. ASPER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Honourable Acting House Leader if he would expand his remarks to indicate to the House whether he will make a commit ment, or give an assurance, that should the Speed-up resolution be passed, that the committee work of this Legislature will continue on a planned and organized basis, the Public Utilities Committee, the Economic Affairs Committee and the Public Accounts Committee, all of which are in session now. MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, in answer to my honourable friend, it has been more or less historic that if the committees themselves make a recommendation to the House that they continue their deliberations after prorogation, the House has taken into consideration those requests. I cannot give my honourable friend the assurance that automatically they will con tinue because, in accordance with the rules of the House, when the House prorogues those committees die until the next session of the House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. HARRY E. GRAHAM (Birtle-Russell): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I rise at this

' M ay 9, 1973 2547 ORDERS OF THE DAY - SPEED-UP (MR. GRAHAM cont•d) ••••• time main ly beca use the Ac ting House Leade r and the Minister of La bour poi nted his finge r at me and at that tim e he was absolutely correct , Mr. Speake r . did at the dying stage s of a parti cular sitting of th is House, • • --(Interjection) -- MR. PAUL LEY: Is my honourable frie nd ask ing a que stion? MR , GRAHA M: No, MR . PAULLEY: Oh we ll , may I ju st com plete my remar ks , Mr.

Chair man, if my honour able frie nd would allow me jus t to correct what may be , by inadver tence , an impre ssion that I gave to the House , to the mem bers of the As sembly , and that refers to a matter that I used the phraseol ogy , I think , sayin g "to complete the bus iness of the House". I don't mean by that , Mr . Chair man, that every

part icu lar item will be carried through to its ult imate end, There have been occasi ons in the past whe n certain resolutio nS , indeed certain bills , both gove rnme nt and priv ate , have not been dealt with when it becomes obv ious that it is the desire of the House to termi nate its bus iness, So I don•t want it misun derstood, Mr. Speak er , by the use of that phr ase, I me ant eve rything , every bill and every "i" would be dotted and every "t" will be crossed, So I want that clearly understood, MR.

SPEAKE R: The Honourable Membe r for Bi rtle -Russell, MR, GRAHAM : Than k you , Mr, Spea k er, Well I•ll st art again, The Minister ofLa bour and the Acting House Lea der ma de refe rence to a bill that I had brought forward rather late in the parti cular session, Bu t , Mr, Speak er, It hink maybe the Minister of La bour may have lost two or three years some place along the lin e, I think that was ba ck in 1969 or 70, so that there 's been ••• MR, SPEAKER : Order, pl ease , MR.

GRAHA M: There 's been considera ble wa ter go under the bridge since that oc curr ed, Mr, Speak er , and we have found that si nce that time the pere nnial Speed-up motio n has gradually take n a little diffe rent twist each year. An d the re were two st atem ents that the Min ister made that I think require a little clarif ica tion, The first tim e he made reference to the Estimates he said that Speed -up would not occur before the 90 hours of debate on Estimates was up, An d then lat er, Mr. Speak er, he said that it would not occur bef ore the completion of Estima tes.

Now I want to know from the Min ister wh ich of these two st atements is correct or if eit her one is correct , or which one has the most likely po ss ibility of being correct, There is a vast differe nce , Mr.

Speake r, in whether it is the time of 90 hours of debate on Estima tes or whether he is ta lking about the compl etion of Estima tes wh ich, in the opi nion of most people who have studied th is at all anyway , it inclu des concurre nce , So that the Ac ting House Leade r has left us with a conflict ing view here and I would hope that when he concludes debate on this resolu ti on that he will clar ify for all members of the House exactl y wh ich stage he intends to pro ceed with it, I want to speak for a lit tle while , Mr .

Speak er, on the propo sal of the governme nt in introduc ing Speed-up and the timing that is included in the ir proposals. This is occu rring at a ti me when we have had one government bill , Mr. Spe aker - actually we •ve had two but one is almost au toma tic , the au tomatic one is the Interim Su pply Bi ll - but there's only been one governme nt bill .that has had third readi ng, We have had bi lls sit ting on the Orde r Paper f or weeks , Mr.

Spe aker , in various stage s of debate , that .have been completely ignored, almo st forgotte n, and we are exp ected to pick up the thread once we get into the Speed -up , an d once again try and ca rry on fro m where we left off wit h the various bills , There has really been no orderly pr ocess of bringing forward leg isla tion in th is parti cular session, Mr. Spe ak er, an d I think if you look bac k on the 1969-70-71-72 sittin gs , you find that in each session the dis order and the disarray and the pre sen tatio n of gove rnment legislation gets exceedingly wo rse with each suc ceeding year .

It •s dishearte ning , to say the lea st , Mr. Speaker , fo r a member to not know how the affa irs of gove rnment are going to pro ceed, I'm sure it •s disheartening to the people who are vit ally aff ected by bills , people who have been alerted five , six, seven weeks ago that the ir bill has pas sed to the commit tee st age an d they are going to have the opp ortunity to appe ar before committe e to make their pres entatio ns know n, and this genera lly , Mr .

Spe ak er , occurs in La w Amendme nts Commi ttee where the maj ority of the bills go, and yet this Law Ame ndments Committee has never even met yet , We •ve had bill s that have been sittin g there for we ek s; we 've had people waiting for wee ks to mak e the ir pre sentat ions, and nothing has happened, There has bee n no indication that the se bills are going to committee or whe n they t will be going to commit tee, In all lik eli hood we will be holdin g commit tee meetin gs maybe 10:00 o'clock in the morni ng , maybe 10:00 o•clock at night , and later, and I -suggest to you, ' i

May 9, 1973 ORDERS OF THE DAY - SPEED -UP (MR. GRAHAM cont'd) ••••• Mr. Speaker, that this may not be the best way for government to communicate with the people Which they are supposed to represent. We have seen occasions in the past, and I•m sure we•ll see them again this session, where Law Amendments Committee, and other committees, where the public representations will be heard, will be sitting from 10:00 in the morning maybe till 11:00, 12:00, or later, at night -- (Interjection) -- and possibly later than that, Mr. Speaker.

And I suggest to you that if government is concerned about hearing the views of the community of the Province of Manitoba that an orderly procession of legislation, with plenty of time for advance notice for public representation, should have occurred long before now in this present session. I don•t think that the government is acting in the best interests of the people, and I at this time wish to register my protest at the manner in which the government has been treating the people of this province. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Souris -Killarney. MR0 McKELLAR: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Rock Lake, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. • ••• Continued on next page.

May 9, 1973 GOVERNM ENT BILLS - BILL NO. 32 MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. PAULLEY: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, whether you'd mind calling Bill No. 32. MR. SP EAKER: Proposed .motion of the ·Honourable Member for Rock Lake. The Honourable .Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON : .Mr. Speaker, I adjourned this bill for the Honourable Member for Souri s.,-Killarp.ey. MR.

SP EAI{ER: The . .Honourable Member for Souri s-Killarney. 2549 MR. .McKELLAR: Mr. ·S peaker, I had some notes on this bill but I don't ·know where they are, but I know eno.ugh abo.ut what it means and I'd like to just say a very few words regard�p.g it. Now, Mr. Speaker, we heard so much from the government of the day, from the Minister of Municipal Affairs, about the dirty old insurance companies who are operating in the Province of Manitoba, how they raised premiums, how they overcharged people , and lo and behold what does The Fires Prevention Act amendment .say? Who is going to take this increase.

I'll tell you what the increase is, Mr. Speaker. When we were in power the most we ever charged for fire preventi on, even though it said you can go to one percent, was one-half of one perc ent. So the government of the day when they were elected they raised it to one perce nt. And what does the bill say ? Amendments to Fire Prevention - it says you can go to two pe rcent. Well, Mr. Speaker, Mr. Sp eaker, Mr. Speaker, who is he kidding ? Who is he kidding? They're just saying two perce nt because they want two percent, and they're going to charge the people. What happens, Mr. Speaker ?

Every $100. 00 of fire insurance premiums is paid by every per son of the Province of Manitoba who insures their property, private property or otherwise. Two percent of every dollar will go to the Minister of Labour for fire prevention. Mr. Speaker, that isn't the only money that the government of the province collects because all during the period of every govern ment two percent premium tax on top of that is paid to the Province of Manitoba. So what does this mean? Four. percent. Now don 't blame high insurance costs on the insurance companies, blame them on the government of the day.

They'r e the ones who are to blame. They can go up and down this province all during an election and say about those bad insurance companie s who have don e business over the last 100 years in the Province of Manitoba and condemn them all they like, but the very blame lies right over there, right on the Cabinet side, the men who are bringing in this bill. And, Mr. Speaker, this is wrong. This is wrong. What will it do to ine, fire preven tion do to me on my farm, the property .I insure , where I pay at least about $200. 00 premium for it ?

It won't do anything for me, and yet I'm told that I'v e got to pay $2. 00 out of every $100. 00 for fire prevent ion. Mr. Sp eaker, this is wrong. It's wrong. The Minister says he isn't going to collect it. If he isn't going to collect it, why bring the amendments in ? That's all I have--he's got the power to collect one percent right today, which he' s collecting. Mr.

Speaker, in the ju dgment of the people of the Province of Manitoba I ask all the people to think about this and lo and behold right at election time when all this propaganda is coming out about Autopac, saying how cheap it is, but Autopac don 't pay no two perce nt, no dollar comes off Autopac for paying for fire prevention, it comes off all the fire insurance premiums that people pay towards fire insurance protection in the Province of Manitoba. And I say this is wrong, and I ask all members of this Chamber to vote against this bill in the best interests of the people of the Province of Manitoba. MR.

SP EAKER: The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The senti ments that have been expresse d by the Member for Souris-Killarney I think are sentiments that are quite the feeling of the people of Manitoba. Here we find another insignificant little bill which doubles the taxation levied by this government. We've had our First Ministe r through publications, no doubt during the election campaign, and in his Budget Speech, and throughout the province , saying that this government has reduced taxation in the Province of Manitoba.

And yet we find that the really reverse is true. Here we find a doubling in the Fire Prevention Act. We find in other bills that fees have been increased. We find that from 1969 where the total revenue of the province was in the three hundred million class, that today it is doubled. The province is receiving almost twice as much from the taxpayer as they were just four years ago. And yet we find that the First Minister is saying that taxation has reduced. Something doesn't add up,

2550 May 1, 1973 BILL 32 (MR. GRAHAM cont'd) ..... Mr. Speaker. We find in this Act, we find a doubling of taxa tion, and we find in other Acts that there's a doubling. Mr. Speaker, I will admit, and I will give the Minister of Labour credit, that by the use of this Act he is bringing in to the Legislature for the consideration of a11 members of the Legislature a direct taxation.

We find however that there are two methods of taxation avail able to governments, one is the taxation through direct legislation, which all members of the House have a right to participate in the debate, and there's the indirect method which is done through regulation, through increased fees, fines, etc. , which provides considerable revenue to the Province of Manitoba, and it's that indirect taxation that to me is the more insidious type. So I am pleased that the Minister in one sense has brought this in as a bill so that we in this House can debate the issue, and the issue, Mr.

Speaker, whether it be the Fire Prevention Act, or any other Act, is a question of increased taxation levied by this government against the people of this province. And I support the stand taken by the Member from Souris-Killarney, and I think that we should oppose because we in this side of the House believe in less taxation rather than more. So, Mr. Speaker, I say that we should support the stand taken by the Member for Souris- Killarney and oppose the passing of this bill. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON : Mr. Speaker, I would like the ... MR. PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I believe the Honourable Member for Rock Lake had the adjournment and in effect then lost his right to speak. MR. SPEAKER: I thank the Honourable Minister for reminding me. That is correct. Is the House prepared to adopt the motion ? The Honourable Member for Assiniboia. MR. PATRIC K: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Thompson, that the debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Health and Social Development that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair. SUPPLY - HEALTH AND SOCIAL DEVELOPMENT MR. CHAIRMAN: Re solution 55 (a) (1)- -the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. MR . TOUPIN: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to answer some of the questions posed of me yesterday.

I'd like to start with some of the questions asked by the Member for Rhineland but he's not in the House, maybe I should wait awhile and see if he returns. In the meantime I'll deal with questions asked by the -- another member that's not in the House. I'll start with the Member for Rhineland and he can read it in Hansard. The questions were in regards to information for the 20 percent equity contribution towards the capital cost of hospital construction. The honourable member wanted to know if that clause was still applicable. The answer to his question is yes.

The regulations under the Health Services Insurance Act provide that 20 percent of the capital cost approved by the Commission shall be financed by the hospital. He asked to what extent hospital districts are indebted at the present time. As at December 31st , 19 72, hospitals in Manitoba that received capital cost allowances from the Manitoba Health Services Commiss ion had outstanding capital debts of approximately $71. 4 million. Of this amount approximately $7. 6 million is a direct liability relating to the 20 per cent owners' equity.

The balance of the hospital liability, $63. 8 million, is being amortized over a period of 20 to 25 years, and annual allowances are included in the hospitals' operating budget for repayment of this debt. The honourable member asked if the same yardsticks are being used for review by the Manitoba Health Services Commission of budgets for hospitals between, say, rural hospitals as from urban hospitals. The answer to this is yes.

The Manitoba Health Services Commission in its annual review of hospital budgets applies established policies of a uniform basis to all hospitals to arrive at a rate of payment to the hospitals, bearing in mind the

May 9, 1973 2551 SUPPLY - HEAL TH (MR. TOUPIN co nt'd) ..... different services that are available in the various institutions. All hospitals over 50 beds are on a global budget, and all those under 50 beds are on a line by line budget calculation. He asked about hospital deficits levied on mu nicipalities. Hospital deficits levied against muni cipalities are only for those costs that have not been approved by the Manitoba Health Services Comm iss ion. These costs repres ent a very minimal proportion of total hospital deficits in any given year. Less than $1 00, OOO out of a deficit totalling 2. 6 million.

By the way the legisla tion which extends the authority for budget revie w and year-en d deficit adjust ment to the Co mm iss ion goes back to the ince ption of the insured hospital plan in 1958. The honourable member asked about the per diem rates for hospitals in Manitoba. We can if the honourable member so wishes provide him with a copy of rates approved for hospitals in past years. However the honourable member should know that this information is available now, and has been for many years, and is published in the Gazette following approval by regu lations of the Manitoba Health Services Commission.

I have with me a copy of the regulation respec ting 197 2 rates of paym ent to hospitals and will provide this to the honourable member if he so wishes , and all other honourable members in the House. The honourable member asked about the $30 million capital supply bill for hospital construction projects. In the past hospitals have traditionally obtained their long term financing requirements by issuing debentures. As marketing conditions changed hospitals began encountering difficulties in raising the required financing.

In order to assist operators of hos pitals the Hospital Capital Financing Authority was established by

an Act of the Legislature. Besides insuring an orderly market for the sale of securities iss ued by hospitals, the Authority is empowered to purchase the hospital securities with money borrowed by the Authority. When the Authority was established the long term requireme nts within the immedia te future was cal culated to be $3 0 million of this amount . (a) 17 million is required for projects co mpleted between 1968 and 1972. (

b) Although a temporary freeze was placed on hospital con struction all projects were not affected. For instance to alleviate the winter employment situation in Manitoba, in 19 71/72 certain rural projects were accele rated. The borrowing requireme nts for these projects is $5 million. (

c) In addition there were other projects which were in final planning stages. The borrowing requirem ent of these accounted for the remainin g $8 million of the 30 million Capital Supply Bill . Interim financing of hospital construction projects is handled through short-term borrowing. It is expected that the authority will go to the market for the full $30 million during the next two years.

I believe that this answers the questions posed by the Honourable Member for Rhineland apart from the request he made to get a more detailed analysis of the amount asked for by the Manitoba Health Services Commi ssion, and I do have copies of the $70 million required by the He alth Services Co mmi ss ion- to be exact, 7, 588, OOO, plus 4. 8 million for the waiver of premiums for senior citizens, and $21 million in suppleme ntary estimates for the waiving of premiums for all citizens in Manitoba to cut off totally the very negative tax imposed by the previous admi nistration, for a grand total of 96. 388 million dollars.

There are copies avail able for all members of the House, if I can have a Page to distribute them. And for the information of all members of the House , Mr. Chairman, the regulation that I was making reference to is a regulation dated October 14th, 1972, Volume 101, No. 41. The Honourable Mem ber for Osborne asked me, I believe it was three questions, one dealing with special dependent care. And I'd like to deal with that question in the few moments that I have available.

The question is whether persons rec eiving special dependent care will benefit from the waiving of health premium s, or whether the amount they pay for their special care will be increased by the amount saved. That's the way I understood the question. The mem ber has acknowledged that according to the existing regulations the amount paid for specia l care must be increased equal to the savings on health premiums. He has requested that we therefore amend these regulations so that the benefits may be passed on.

I would first of all like to reassure the member that I am in compl ete agreement with the principle that these persons should gain some thing as a result of abolishing premiu ms, health and medical premiu ms.

2552 May 9, 1973 SUPPLY - HEAL TH (MR. TOUPIN cont'

d) Unfortunately the method to allow this principle to happen inpractice is a little more complex. The original social allowance regulation s in 1967 made ne eds testing for special dependent care, a very open procedure. However, these regulations had to be repealed due to the objections of Canada Assistance Plan officials in 1968 before we took office. Since then we have had to move closer to the basic social allowance needs test for all recipients, including recipients of special dependent care. This was not the previous government's decision in 1968, and it is not our decision today.

It is part and parcel of the Canada Assistance Plan. I would like to remind the honourable member that we have a sile nt partner in the administration of social allowances, namely, the Federal Government. Administration of social allowance program according to an agreement with Canada, and therefore we are not always able to simply act unilaterally in correcting apparent injustice. Having said this, I will add that there has been a good deal of discussion concerning the possibility of a special test for eligibility for dependent care.

This is the only way we will be able to pass on the savings in health premiums and I have asked my department to develop a program and policy to this end, around which would begin our negotiations with the Canada Assistance Plan. MR. TURNBULL : Mr. Chairman, while the Minister is finding what else he's going to deal with there, if I could ask him a question. That means in fact then that the people that are now receiving assistance, and who are in fact maintaining themselves in a job, will not benefit from the elimination of the medical care premium, until these negotiations are completed.

That is my understanding of what you said, I assume that's correct. MR. TOUPIN: Mr. Speaker, my last remarks indicated that we are negotiating now and we still have a few days, a few weeks, before the policy to abolish totally the premiums take effect, and hopefully that we can conclude the negotiations before these individuals are affected. The other question posed of me was in regards to the Mental Health Res earch Foundation, and that was equally a question asked of me by the Member for Flin Flon. Mr. Chairman, I believe I can state that my government supports expanded research in the field of mental health.

This is one of the major health problems of our country. It has in the past been a neglected area. Our government is committed to an increase emphasis on all aspects of care and cure for the mentally ill, and this of course includes res earch on mental illness . However, it is also our responsibility to safe-guard the expenditure of public funds and to ensure that public funds are used in the best way possible. This means that since there is not an infinite supply of money available for research on mental illness, it is our duty as elected represen tatives to single out the areas of highest priority for funding.

We are willing, Mr. Chairman, to consider funding of specific research projects. A project must be considered on its own merits and in line with other proposals. We are not willing to hand over $300, OOO to a number of citizens to decide on what project this money would be spent. This would not only be evading our responsibility as government, it would also represent an irresponsible attitude towards public funds. If a private board, such as the Mental Health Res earch Foundation, can draw up an agenda on research proposals, we will consider these proposals.

In fact I would like to take this opportunity to invite res earch proposals in the field of mental health. However, to my knowl edge, the Mental Health Res earch Foundation has not presented any specific research program to me or my officials. We will wait for the Foundation to present their program; until that time I cannot in good confidence recommend to Cabinet that the Foundation be handed an uncon ditional grant. There were, Mr. Chairman, quite a few questions asked pertaining to the nursing home policy announced by this government, that is the coverage of all health facilities as of the lst of July, 1973.

I'll refer to that policy as the Nursing Home Program, but that really means the coverage of all, all health facilities as of the lst of July.

The implementation of the Nursing Home Program is being directed by a Steering Committee consisting--and I hope the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge is listening because she's shown a lot of concern, that is she and especially the Member for Morris--directed by a Steering Committee consisting of staff of the Manitoba Health Services Commission, and invited repres entatives of the nursing home operators, the Manitoba Health organizations, formally the Manitoba Hospital Association, the Manitoba Association of Registered Nurs es, the Manitoba Medical Association, and the College of Physicians and Surgeons.

The first

May 9, 1973 2553 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) ..... objective of the St eering Committee has been to protect the independence of individuals who are forced by frailty, disability or isolation to live in institu tions inste ad of in their own home. The establishment of a prepaid system for special care over and above resi dential arrangements will pre vent the depletion of asse ts commonly resulting from such care ne eds in a welfare system. Every effort is being made to avoid disruption of family and place of r_esi dence when admission to a personal care home takes place.

Detailed policies are now being received from the St eering Committee after approval of the Manitoba Health Services Commissi on. At this point in time I can indicate and outline the admitting procedur e. Application may originate from any health or social service agency or personn el. The applicant will require medical nursing and social assessme nt. The nursing and social asses sment will be handled by experienced staff on a regional basis as they are now. The first approach will be to pro vide care at home rather than admit to an inst itution . And I stress this point, Mr. Chairman.

The first approach will be to provide care at home rather than admit in an inst itution. Our ability to provide care at home will be greatly enhanced by an expansion of home nursing and home making servic es, especially outside Metropolitan Winnipeg. The selection of applicants will be on a priority of ne ed for care when every considera tion has been given to care at home. The cost of home care services will be paid by the pro gram. The cost of home care services will be provided under the control and direction of regional offices .

The board and operators of nursing homes have been kept appraised of the work of the St eering Committee and many meetings in Winnipe g and throughout the province as well as by representation of the Steering Committee. It has been an aim of this government to incur the amalgamation of boards, not direct, not force , but an aim of this government to incur the amalgamation of boards providing health services. That aim precedes the insured nursing home program and continues, apart from the nursi ng home program, no board is threatened by these polici es. There are now, Mr.

Chairman, 5, OOO nursing homes and 1, 800 hospital beds in Manitoba. On the basis of a recently completed asses sment of patient care ne eds, we propose to redesig nate the nursing home beds as 2, 800 per sonal care beds, and 2, 200 extended treatment centre beds, with no change in the 1, 800 beds currently designated as hostel beds. -- (Interjection)- Can I just finish my sentence and then I'll accept the question. MRS. TRUEMAN: ... the figures are a little too fast for us to catch. MR. TOUPIN: I'm sure, Mr. Chairman, that Hansard will pick it up. They're pretty quick at picking up things.

But I'll say them again. I'll say them again, as long as -- (Inter jection) -- in Fre nch did the member say? Polish. Well I' m sorry I can 't say very many words in Polish. There are now 5, OOO nursing home beds and 1 , 800 hostel beds in Manitoba. On the basis of a recently completely assessm ent of patient care ne eds, we proposed to redesig nate the nursing home beds as 2, 800 personal care beds, and 2, 200 extended treatment centre beds, with no change in the 1, 800 beds cu rrently designated as hostel beds. Did we get that?

The level of care provided in these beds will include supervi sion in hostels, personal and nursing care in personal care homes, and specialized supportive and restorative care in extended treatment . The last grouping is being duly introduced. It may be compared to the auxiliary hospitals in the Province of Alberta. It is our policy to combine these levels of care in one instit ution where possible to avoid the forcing of a change of residence where there is a change in the indivi dual 1 s care requirements.

The policies being prepared by the Steering Committee are being forwarded by the Manitoba Health Services Commiss ion for approval by Cabinet and inclusio n in regulations. I can indicate that they are designed to assure that couples are not separated when onlyonen eeds care. That a resident is free and encouraged to take reasonable leave from the home and that in the event of hospital admission there is reasonable assurance of return to the home of his choice.

The recommendations allow for preferred accommodation controlled as to the maxi mum number of beds which may be id entified as preferred, and as to the charges that may be made to the patient. Eligibility for co verage is to be based on residents of sufficient durations to prevent an influx of applicants from areas where nursing home care is not ensured. There will be a reside ntial charge of $4. 50 per day con sistent with every person 's responsibility for his own

2554 May 9, 1973 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) ..... maintenance within his ability; this charge is proposed as realistic for the service covered and within the means of every person over 65. For those without sufficie nt income to finance the resi dential charge, the Province of Manitoba will still assist such individuals as recipi ents of public assis tance . The policies outlined are for imm ediate application. We are aware of problems of distri bution of beds and instances of low standards of service. These problems will be foremost when the initial steps have been imple mented.

We are fully aware that beyond ensuring this program for nurs ing home care, we will be responsible for equitable distribution of beds and for the standard of care provided in them. I hope Mr. Chairman, that this at least helps to clarify some of the questions that we had in regards to the new policy becomin g in forc e on the lst of July, 197 3 in regards to the insurance of all levels of care in Manitoba, including home care services .

I am again going back to a comm ent made by, I believe, the Member for Fort Rouge and the Mem ber for Fort Garry--they're forming a common front--a nd this is in regard to expen ditures in different provinces in Canada in regards to health care and expenditures in the amounts of million dollars per population, that is per capita expenditure per province. And I again state that Manitoba ranks as the lowest in Canada and those figures are figures for 1972.

I'll just indicate the lowest expenditure of million dollars Manitoba, excluding Capital Account, 693. 5, including Capital Expenditure 755. 6 million dollars, per capita, including Capital Expenditure, 762, being the lowest, No. 1, in Canada. The highest happens to be Ne wfoundland, expenditures 674. 5 million per capita expenditure of 1, 268. There was a question posed by the Member for Brandon West, and mayb e I could just expand briefly on the answer I gave him in regards to the Brandon Correctional Institution.

Plans for the replac ement of an archaic cor rectional institution at Brandon are procee ding satisfactory and without delay. Functional plan for the multi-facet building has been comple ted by the design consu ltant in conjunction with departmental staff, and the Department of Public Works has been asked to develop proposal drawings and to prepare prelimina ry costs. It is estima ted that excavation for the new 92 person facility will commence in the late fall of this year.

The new institution will serve the Catchme nt Area, of which Brandon is the ce ntre, and will accom modate in distinctively segregated areas sentenced and remanded men and women as well as providing a detention facility for juven iles. I could give more details on the insti tution once the plans are completely terminated. Mr. Chairman, there were questions asked of me by the Mem ber for Rhineland which I felt I dealt with; the Member for Fort Rouge indicated that I had not answered suffici ently the questions asked by the Member for Morris.

I feel that mayb e I dealt with some of the questions that the Mem ber for Morris asked pertaining to how we will deal with the additional coverage of all health facilities, and the meetings that are taking place now with different personal care home boards, and so on. I did give some details on the question of day care services and the program at an earlier date, and I wish the honourable member would make reference to that. There' s one comme nt that was made by the Member for Fort Rouge that I, that I really can't understand in a sense.

She did make reference to part of the report of Professor Barber' s Report, that poverty in Manitoba is, that the poverty line is 25 to 31 perc ent, and she indicated that Manitobans--well I will bring forward as soon as I poss ibly can get the accura te figures, what the poverty line was say in 1966, 67 and 68, and how it relates to today, and what has been done since 1968 in the last four years . And the honourable member, and I'm subj ect to correction, mentioned that she felt that Manitobans will not benefit by the elimina tion of Medical and Hospital premiums because they will lose control.

Well there is no such intention on the part of the government even though we've cut that very negative tax completely, which was $204. 00 a year for af ami ly back in April 1969, now will be comple tely nil. This is definitely a benefit for all Manitobans. I don't see how the honourable member can say that it will not benefit Manitobans, and we will not take control. I've tried to say this on many occa sions but she always comes back and tries to indicate to the Members of this Hous e that the governme nt has wanted to centralize all power within governm ent service. And it's the contrary that's happening.

First of all we're dece ntralizing services that had previously been offered through Winnipeg. We're sending that down into the differ ent regions and districts in the Province of Manitoba. We're not taking away autonomy of regional boards, of hospital boards, of perso nal care boards, and so on. We're adding on to that. When we're talking of comm unity health

May 9, 19 73 2555 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. TOUPIN cont'd) ..... and socia l developme nt centres, we don't want to run them. We never said that the Department of Health and Socia l Devel opment wanted to run these facilities. We're wanting the people in the locality to be responsible. A MEMBER: You're on the wrong side. MR. TOUPIN: So what's happeaing? I don't really understand the honourable member. Is she trying to throw sand in our eyes so we won't see -- (Interj ection) -- MR. GEORGE HENDERSO N (Pembina ) : Well, Mr. Speaker, I just had a ... MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pe mb ina. MR.

HENDERSON: I just had a question. He's talking about these people not being concerned. I have letters in front of me, and I'm sure that he's received many, that they are concerned because the way your repres entatives out in the country is explaining it, they're not giving them the answers they want, and you know just as sure as you're sitting over there and I'm here, that you have letters in front of you that they aren't co nvinced of these things. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please. What is the question ? MR. TOUPIN: ... I believe the Honourable Member for Pe mbina interpreted me incorrectly.

I didn't say that the boards were not conc erned. I said that we as a province have no intention of taking over their responsibility. And we have had meetings with them over the last years, and we will, it is our intention to give those additional responsibilities per taining to health and related socia l services to responsible people in the region, and the dis trict, and in the towns, and the given areas where we will have these facilities. That's what we're saying. You don't understand that. It's there. -- (Interj ection)-- A MEMBER: Write him a note . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for As siniboia. MR.

PATRIC K: Mr. Speaker, I just have a couple of questions and I'v e not taken too much time of the Minister's time but .some thing that he has said concerns me, and that's to do with mental health. I'm sure that it's safe to say mental illness is not a disease it's a problem of living, and the Minister indicated that he'd be cutting down or not giving the grants to the mental research, and this is what concerns me because, Mr.

Chairman, in the last few years , I balieve it's through drugs and new techniques and preventative measures that the mental hospitals have been emptied not only in this province, but right across Canada, and because the treatment is done in General Hospitals and not in Mental Institutions. At the same time there's still at lea st one out of ten people that require some medical attention as far as mental illness is concerned.

There is as many as 75, OOO people still, I believe, in institutions in Canada, so this is an area that there has been great progress made but I feel that we should continue with a resea rch program, the kind that has been carried out where it has helped these people. The other point is I wonder to what extent when these people are rehabilitated and gone home, to what extent have they been able to take their proper place in socie ty in the way of getting jobs and getting placed in jobs, and perhaps the Minister would have some indication or some record.

My other question is to do with foster children and what is the--y ou call it per diem or the amount that the foster parents get for every child that's placed in a foster home. I believe it's some thing like $1. 75 or less, somewhere in that neighborhood, but I don't believe there has been an increase in this area in the last six or seven years.

I understand that the Fe deral Government has increased their costs, or per diem assess ment, to foster parents as far as some of the native people, or the Indian people are concer ned, which we have not raised this for the foster parents in the province, and I feel this is a very good program.

In fact I believe that there should be a subsidized adoption program for older children in the age group of say 8 to 10 or 12, because they, I bel ieve have a much better chance and opportunity in life when they have parents, be they acting parents, instead of being put into institutions, and I feel there must be some subsidized adoption program as far as the older children are conc erned, because, Mr.

Chairman, it is not my opinion, but I'm sure most members would agree that preventative measures perhaps are the least expensive costs as far as medical attention is concer ned, and I'm sure that the Minister would be the first one to agree. The other question I wish to pose to him, and he has talked about the homemaker or my question to him is, before you can get som ebody to come in to a home to look after children, say if the Mother wants to go to work, how many children does there have to be in a fami ly?

2556 May 9, 1973 SUPPLY - HE ALTH (MR. PATRICK cont'd) ..... Can you get somebody to come in--1 believe, it's to do with Family Bureau as well as:--how many childre n does there have to be in a home before you can get somebody to look after childre n while the Mother has to go to work ? Is there any required number or, I believe, even if the mother would be able to go to work and be able to pay some of the cost of the homemaker, but would there be some sha ring in the cost say if there is only two children?

I don't know what the requirement is-is it four child r�n at tb.e present time be fore you can get somebody to come in? So these are. the questions I pose to the Minister. MR. CH AIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINARSON: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I would like to make a few coillII).ents in regards to the Minister's Department, and having liste ned to him make his-the COIJ'.lments he made just before he sat dowri makes me wonderjust what goes on in his department when he says he is interested in the comments that come from.the people who are directly interested and working on behalf of our health i nstitutions. Let me quote one example, and the Sanatorium in Ninette has been one that has been in the news media for some months now.

I can say to him that this is in the constituency of Souris-"Killarney, the Member for Souris-Kil larney, but it's an institution that's been of interest to the whole southern and western part of Manitoba. D()ctors have been concerned about it wondering what was going to happen to that institution. There's some questions that I would like to pose to the Minister now but before doing so I would like to challenge him on his comments that he made, and I hope he's not going to make a 30 minute speech to answer maybe a few direct questions.

A committee was established in that area over the past few years to work in conjunction with the Minister 's department as to what the future should be for that institution because it had served its purpose in curing those people who were there because of tuberculosis, and it was no longer an insti tution that they found necessary because of the advanced stages in medicine they were able to help people with that kind of disease.

But I want to say to the Minister that the people in that part of Manitoba have give n up in utter frustration because of the lack of interest in the Minister's attitude towards that institution and what they could do with it. I can say that my colleague from Souris Killarney and I attended a meeting one evening not so many weeks ago, and the Minister sent his civil servant out there to answer on his behalf. He was told to tell the people that that institution would not be developed into a personal care home for senior citize ns.

They had other questions to pose to the gentleman who was speaking on behalf of the Minister. He wasn't able to answer them and as a result of this there was rather moments when we thought that the meeting was going to develop into utter futility on behalf of those who went out there. And I' m not sure, I'm not going to say that the Minister never did confrol)l; the people themselves per sonally, but I felt after listening to the co=ents at that meeting, Mr.

Chair man, if the Minister had been acce pting his responsi biliti es--now he can correct me if I'm wrong--but I don' t know, I don't believe, he ever at any time attended a meeting out in that part of Manitoba, face to face with the people who are concerned with that particular problem. The questions I have to pose in this connection, Sir, are this : Who possesses or holds the title to that Sanatorium or that institution? No. 2. There has been advertis ements in the papers that that institution is for sale.

The Sanatorium Board had been given apparently that authority, or maybe they do have that authority without permission of the Minister, to adver tise the Sanatorium that it is for sale. The Minister has indicate d in this House that there has been an offer of a quarter of a million dollars made towards the purchase of that institution. I would li ke to know who receives that money if a sale does happen to be transacted for that amount of money? Who receives that money, and what becomes of it?

I'm sure that the people, not only in Souris-Killar ney constituency but, as I've said a few moments ago, this concerns the people of the whole southern and western part of the province, and so we all have an interest in it. I know the people are wondering if it is sold for say a quarter of a million dollars, will the people in that part of the province get any benefit from it?

That if it's not going to be used for a personal care home, and I know the people in the community have said, well if you the government can't see fit to use it for that purpose, can we use it for a tourist attraction, that is develop it with the tourist potential that surrounds that particular institution, and can it be used to fit into that' kind of a project? I think these are some of the things, Mr. Chairman, that the people in that part of the province are interested in knowing, and I would like to hear the comments from the Minister on those matters.

May 9, 1973 25 57 SUPPLY - HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKEN ZIE: Mr. Speaker, I'll try and be as brief as I possibly can. I well recog nize the binder in here, we're only entitled to 90 hours to deal with the Estimates, but this is a very im portant department and it's interesting, you know, as we get to the dying hours of reviewing Es timates, I recall reviewing the Estima tes some years back when we were doing the budget of those days with $30 0, OOO, and we were allowed 80 hours.

Now we're dealing with $700, 000, and we're only entitled to 90 hours -- (Interj ection) -- or millions rather, and days backibackbenchers, when I sat with the government, were not permit ted to question the Minis ters because you rise, the backbenchers rise and fall with their government, and so the esti mater were basically left to the Opposition to deal with. I think it's the prerogat�ve of the Opposition to investigate the estimates of the various Ministers, but the rules have changed.

We also now have a couple of -- (Interjection)-- well you can argue about it all you want but nevertheless that's what we're faced with, and here we're running out of time, we've only dealt with what-six departments -- (Interjection) -- I agree but I'm going to try and explain to the Chairman the bind that we're in. I'll very briefly get to the point to show you that it's very difficult for the Opposition to devote the time and the skill that's necessa ry to review this enor mous budget that we're facing today in the short time that's allocated to us.

I'm wondering if the honourable the Minister can describe to me some of the workload problems that the nursing home people are facing today. I'm familiar with nursing homes today that bring people in that are as healthy as I am to take the workload off some of the nurses in those nursing homes because they cannot possibly handle those heavy patients like at full capacity. So I'm wondering is that a problem, or is it some thing that maybe the Minister has in mind and can deal wi th?

It's not possible to put hostels and things like that in, I understand, rural Manitoba-I unders tand some of the nursing homes are facing a very serious problem of the heavy care problem that they have in those, so they have to bring in patients that are not needing that kind of care to kind of cut down the workload, and I ask the Minister if that is a problem. Can I ask the Honourable Minister about Deer Lodge? Where we are with Deer Lodge, and where that has gone?

May I also ask the Honourable Minister about the $4. 50 deterrent fee, and I well recall the days when we raised the matt er of Medicare in those days, and where it was not-it was a dirty word to raise a $4. 50 deterr ent fee. The feds wouldn't buy it, and so there was no way-we were hung with a Medicare scheme where no deterre nt fees were allowed, period.

Now today we have-and this governm ent over here didn't--t hey were in opposition then, but they hate deterrent fees the NDP for some reason, and mayb e they've changed, and I'd like now to ask the Honourable Minister how he got this $4. 50 deterrent fee through his caucus because it 's very interesting to find that now we're going to a $4 . 50 deter rent fee which has been anti the policy of that government for a long, long time. And may I also ask him how he got that accepted by the Federal Government, or in fact is the province paying all these costs and the Fe deral Government are not part of that program ?

I raised the question, Mr. Chairman, some time ago about the guaranteed annual income, the pilot project that we've be en waiting with great interest, which I suspect is going to be Dauphin--! raised the que stion in those days. I don't think the Minister has announced that program. If he has I was unfortunately out of my chair, so if I was out I apologize and I'll try and follow it in Hansard. But it's difficult to follow. We're about three or four days behind in Hansard. One more final question, Mr.

Speaker, and I'd like the Honourable the Minister to clarify a statement that he ma de through the propaganda machine, the News Service, regarding, "Toupin Suggests July lst Target Date for Changes. " And in that great document that I have in my hand, and I read, "Mr. Toupin said the increase to $20. 00 would be welcomed but was still inadequate support for a child. The real goal of family allowance, he said, should aim at benefits approximating the full cost of child rearing. " Is that the policy of government, the cradle to the grave ?

Or is this the Minister's philosophy, or is this where we're going with these programs ? That you're going to dig up this kind of money, that you'll provide a family with the full cost of rearing yonr own child from the day it's born until the day it, what? reaches 18 or 20? I'd just like the Minister to clarify those statement s. Thank you. MR. HENDERSON: ... I'm talking about local care homes in towns where they have people that are incapable of looking after them selves, and how will they be handled under this

2558 May 9, 1973 SUPPLY - HEALTH (MR. HENDERSON cont'd) . . . . . program? Who determines whether they're heavy load care or whether they just need a reasonable amount of attention, and are these people going to be eligible under this scheme? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. TOUPIN: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, to take the last question first, there will be a board established to determine the level of care needed in consultation with the doctor in question and that will definitely be covered, that will be covered at the level that's needed for the patient and not determined, you know, by officials of my department, determined by boards that will be appointed, admission and discharge boards in consultation with the doctor in question. Now, you know, the Honourable Member, Mr. Chairman, from Roblin has all the gall in the world. I wish I had a half an hour to answer him.

He has the gall to say that we're imposing a deterrent fee pertaining to coverage of all levels of care in Manitoba. What, Mr. Chairman Mr. Chairman, what did we have in Manitoba prior to this policy ? What did we have ? Can I tell you what we had in Manitoba prior to this policy? We had medical and hospital premiums of $204. 00 a year per family. What was that ? Was that based on the ability to pay? The poor person with an annual income of $2, OOO had to pay that even if he had fourteen kids. Is that fair ? How about the individual that went into a personal care home at a cost of $350. 00-$450. 00 a month ?

He had to pay it, every penny of that, every penny of that. That wasn't a deterrent fee imposed by the Conservatives, was it? Oh for Pete's sakes, the gall of the individual. When we talk about $4. 50 per day cost to the individual, we're talking of a board an:d room cost. We're not saying you're going to pay $400. 00, $450. 00, $500. 00 a month. We're telling the individuals that can afford to pay, "We're going to charge you $135. 00 a month. " Not as a deterrent fee but a board and room charge. A board and room charge.

If they're able to stay at home and if it is determined by these boards aild the doctor in question that the individual can be cared for at home, we're going to pay for the home care, for the Home Care Services. We said that. That's our policy; What happened in the previous administration? A VON nurse went to your home; you had to pay for it. You had to pay for that cost. We're saying we're going to cover that. We're going to cover every level of care 'in Manitoba after board and room has been taken. And the honourable member has the gall to call that a deter rent fee? Look at deterrent fees that you imposed.

Oh for Pete's sake. It's completely outrageous. I could just, you know, say such outrageous words to the honourable member for saying that but it wouldn't be parliamentary and I can't. --(Interjection)-'- Truth? You look at the truth. I'm sure the Honourable Member for Rock Lake had friends or relatives that were placed in personal care homes that had $10 , OOO, $15 , OOO in liquid as sets, that had to take every cotton pickin' penny of that and pay it out before they became wards of the state. If he hasn't--maybe he comes from a family and relatives that are very wealthy. I know that I had.

I had so many of them, that took every penny, apart from, say, $500. 00 or $700. 00 that was set aside for their funeral. They had to spend every penny gained over a period of 40, 50 years, 40, 50, 60 years before they were picked up by the province. Is that the type of policy the honourable member wants ? Surely it is because they didn't change it in ten years that they were in office. No. The Honourable Member from Souris-Lansdowne was in the House when such policies were established. He was there. Did he change anything? Not at all. He's still there. Did he vote for the budget? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please.

The hour being 4:30--0rder please. The hour being 4:30, the last hour of every day being Private Members' Hour, committee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. Mr. Speaker, your Committee of Supply has considered a certain -resolu tion and has asked me to report progress and begs leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS (Logan): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Osborne, that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried.

May 9, 1973 2559 PRIVATE MEMBERS' RES OLUTIONS - NO. 11 MR. SPE AKER: Private Members' Hour on resol utions on Wednesday. The first one is No. 8. The Honourable Member for La Vere ndrye is absent. No. 11 - the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, propose d--the Honourable Member for Morris. The question must be deba ted since it's open. The Honourable Member for Minnedosa. Well in that case if no one is prepared to debate the motion--the Honourable House Leader. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, if I may; I don't know whether there's some confusion that pos sibly the Honourable Member for Minnedo sa was going to speak.

Maybe some other member is desirous of speaking on this res olution. MR . SPE AKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKEN ZI E: Mr. Speaker, I have a few comments I'd like to speak into the record regarding the resol ution that was prese nted by my Leader regarding Resol ution No. 11, the Publication of Complete Acco unts of Programs, in which the Provincia l Gover nment is finan cially or adm inistratively involved. And I think this becomes a sort of a fair question when you recognize some of the programs that are taking place around the province.

I happen to have a program take place in my constituency where a gentleman from another province came in, from our neighbouring province of Saskatchewan, and became involved in one of these pro grams where ce rtain government funds were appropriated to him to tear down a rink in a cer tain community, and I think that that type of explanation, the members of the House, I think the members of the comm unity in which it's involved,there should be some explanation of that type of distribution of the people's money, taxpayers' dollars.

Ther e' s other programs that are questioned from time to time and I've had the question asked of me at many times today when we're talking about STEP grants. I l1appened to have a bunch of students phone me today and tell me that a certain STEP grant, they don't know if it's been turned down or if it's been approved. I can't help them because I have no informa tion. I made cer tain phone calls.

And so it' s a sort of a back room type of deal, as I understand it, and I think if the programs were put on the table of the Legislature where members knew what was going on with these various programs, I don't think there's anybody quarreling with what the government is trying to do with some of these programs and that is to employ some of the people that are unemployed.

But basically we're dealing with taxpayers' dollars and when we're dealing with taxpayers' dollars I think it is the right of the members of the Legislature to have some publication, even if it can' t be debated, but there should be some bre akdown of the accounts of these programs and what they're trying to do, what the governme nt - maybe the Minister that could lay them on the table could say in fact, "Well this is what we're trying to do with these dollars, " but as I stand here we get a gross figure and it se emingly ends about there.

I can only speak for my own constituency but some of the programs I question. The one where the moneys went into another province for a program that was basica lly for the people of this province. I think some of the programs - and it's difficult when you'r e allocating tax dollars on various programs and ce rtain people are allowed to admi nister those dollars and admi nister the program to make eve_rything airtight so that it follows the policy at all times and I don't think there's anybody quarreling with that type of a problem.

But I think at some day and some stage - if this is the future of the way we're going to try and stimulate the econo my of this province and try and create jo bs for people that are not able to find jobs by these various programs, I think that the day will have to come and I think the time would be mayb e now, next year, next sessi on, next parliament, where mayb e some of these figures should be laid on the table.

So I with those few remarks think that the res olution is one that I ce rtainly can support, and with the number of questions that have been raise d from my constituency since these programs have been brought to the people in that area I think they as well as their member would like to have some of the answers to the various programs and the questions that are raised.

256°0 May 9, 19 73 RESOLUTION NO, 11 MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Member .for st. George. MR. WIL LIAM URUSKI(St, George): Thank you, Mr, Speaker. I have a few remarks to make on this resolution as presented by the Leader of the Opposition. In the fir st

Whereas he makes remarks that there's been in recent years a sig nificant prolif eration in ad hoe pro grams such as PEP and STEP and etc. I don't know what he means by "etc. 11, but I certa inly don' t agree with his ass umption that these are "ad hoe" program s; especially when you find that the programs such as PEP--the effect that the PEP program has on reduci ng the unemploy ment rate in Manitoba to at least the second lowest provinc e in the country is one of the avenues and moves that this government has ma de.

I just don't see how the Leader of the Opposition can make such an accusation in that resolution. Secondly of course these programs are at the req,rnst and the initiative of local resi dents in communities and commun ity leaders, munic ipal cou nci ls, hospital boards and the like, and he's saying they're ad hoe.

I think the Conserv ative Party should sit down and at least listen to the people of rural Manitoba the way this government has listened, and listen to the problems that they have had and develop programs such as this to deal with many of the pro blems they have and not criticize all local people in rural areas and say this is an ad hoe program. The Member ·for Morris got up and said, you know, what kind of programs is this government approving, or proj ects under the PEP grant ?

He in eff ect is saying that any of the recommend 9.tions that municip al leaders in rural Manitoba are making are just full of baloney, That's what in effect he is saying, that any of the suggestions that the local leaders in our rural areas haven't any good suggestions . I can tell you, Mr. Speaker, that the sug gestions that have come from local areas with respect to PE.P, in my constituency for .instance you have .the fixing up of community halls and community centres, you have the fixing up of hospital s.

For instance in Arborg the hospital received PEP grants, the Comm unity of Camper their community hall was in sad need, in dire need of repairs and additions because of the lack of local resources to be able to .generate funds to give them an adeq11ate place to meet and hold the functions. This program has immensely helped the rural areas and .:is . well .has benefitted the people, some of whom have been on social allowances and some of whom have been underemploy ed. These program s have assisted them in getting some dollars over and above social assis tance and have created me aningful jobs.

The STEP Program for instanc e that' s in effect now, there are two portions or two parts to the STEP· Program. Of ·course the orig inal STEP ·program, Community STEP, that has been announced and appli cations I believe are now in from the various communities and high sc hools throughout the provinc e in which there will be clean-up program s; all sorts of community betterment programs will fall under this ·program.

And as welli the second portion, the rural STEP which will give an opportunity for many of our high school and university graduates a chance to be employed on farms and assist the farm ers· in proj ects that he would not normally undertake, But getting down to the crux of the resolut ion, the member, the Leader of the Opposit ion indicates that there should be an annual publica tion of comp lete accou nts of program s.

Well the Es timates have now been d.abated for 85 hours plus another 50 minutes .today and the mem bers have every and full opportunity of seeking detailed information on th ese .programs if they wanted to question them. The Honourabl e Member for Minn edosa shakes his head in the negative. I dJn't know what q1rnstions you want to ask but I can certainly say that you've expended 85 hours and you've had questions, you know. The opportunity is there to seek all information necessa ry with these ·program s.

But I'm sure, I'm sure that if, you .know, each and every member who on the opposite side if he's represen ting his constituency well, he is well aware of what programs are in eff ect and what type of grants each commun ity in his area is recei ving. If he is, shall we say, on top of the programs he would be aware of which community in his area gets the LIP grant or is applyi ng for the LIP grant and the PEP grant and the STEP grants and the like, then he would ·.Je able to have all this information at his fin gertips .

In the resolved portion the Leader of the Oppositi on indicates that this Asse mbly con sider the advisability of seeking the annual publication of complete accounts of programs in which the Provincial Government is fina ncially or administrativ ely involve d. Now if you acc ept that verbiage sort of carte blanche you then should say that all the programs like Medicare, any other programs, the Motor Vehicle Branch or the Lice nse Issuance Branch of

May 9, 1973 2561 RE SOLUTION NO, 11 (MR URUSKI cont' d) . ... . Department of Highways, those programs may be the comp lete information with respect to employees and moneys that are - are they suggesting that all this type of information be ma de available ? For instance, even say under Medicare, should all the information as for the doctors of the programs that we're involved in - - should that be brought out com pletely in the open ?

Poss ibly the programs or the money that the government is granting to the universities )whether or not there s� ould be a complete breakdown of every departmental or every class that receives some type of assistance, Maybe that should be published. I'm not sure. Maybe that's the etc.' that the Lea der of the Opposition mentions because all he shows is PE P and STEP.

I can sincerely say that I would hope that, and [ think I'm correct in saying, I would hope that the Department of Colleges and Universities who administer the STEP program I would think that they should be in consul tation with the Federal opportunities for youth people to make sure that there is no duplication of grants to the various commun ities. I think this is carried out.

Some communities will receive a STEP grant from the province and other communities will receive an opportunities for Youth grant from the Feoeral Government, so that there can be a general spreading over of the program so that most communit ies, or practically every communit y can benefit and the young people from those communities could take advantage of the existing projects that they may apply for. It' s really on their own initiative that these programs can be developed, and I say to them that if they' re unhappy with the initiative of the rural areas I think they' ve got another think coming.

I think the ideas of programs and the like that are coming out of many communities is fant� stic. The people are just waiting, and have been waiting for programs like this to utilize their resources and se condly, cre ate employment . So that I don't think there is a lack of initiative on many of the local communi ties. They are taking full advantage of it.

When the two departments, and I just lost my train of thought, the departments that were handling the PEP program, I am sure that the PE P program was coincided as well with the Federal' s LIP program so that communities that had benefitted or were going to benefit from a LIP grant which was granting for labour costs over $15, OOO, 00, the PE P program would try and dJvetail this program to other communities which had smaller projects, so that again the program could be spread oat throughout the province and so that as many communities and as many projects could be funded so that the employment rate as it has been shown is the se cond lowest in the Dominion of Canada.

These program s, espec ially the PE P were a direct benefit on the em ployment rate in the country. As well, it assis ted in -- the people who funded or looked after these programs were cognizant of the fact that there were people on social allowances and those people were given preference or they were encouraged to se ek employment on these programs, and I know in my area that many people who could not norm ally find work who were on s·Jcial allowanues did find jobs on these programs . I think it helped them immens ely; it yoa know, lifted their spirits.

They felt that they were needed and they could walk proudly and say, I' ve earned it, I had a job . And they had money in the pocket and then the money circu lated in the community. And yoa know, the beneficial effects of these program s--! ce rtainly can say that it was immense to all the rural areas. Now I d,Jn' t know exactly ho\li the honourable members are--what they are trying to get at, what the leader is trying to get at. What does he really want? If he wants to ask questions on specif ic programs or projects, I think specif ic questions can be put.

I don't know--you know, as I mentioned before, if the members on his side of the House are really looking after their areas they should be aware of which communities get the grants and it' s not very hard to put two and two together and where the money went. Now the total funding of course is reported in the Est imates for these type of program s, and the Capital accelera tion programs and the 1ike. The Premier introd1.ICed the Capital Es timates ju st the other day and, yoa know, yo..i people who are the Opposition passed them in one afternoon.

I'm surprise d, that if you have such a burning desire of information on specif ic programs that you would have debated those Capital Est imates hours on end. But I am not sure as to really what you want, what you seem �o accomplish . If the "etc ." means some thing that I am not aware of or includes some wide group I'd like to hear from you people as to what you really want. I think maybe the Est imate book shoald be changed to provide some ad:litional detail in it· But I'm not sure what they want; I'd be willing to hear.

May 9, 1973 2562 RE SOLUTION NO, 11 MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. R� (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Thank you Mr, Speaker, and a word of thanks too to the Hono urable Ho:.ise Leader, Acting House Leader, the Minister of Labour. Mr. Speaker, the Member for St. George seems unduly sensitive it seems to me with respect to the use of the term ad hoe in this resolution. No one is suggesting that resolutions and proposals and suggestio ns from local authorities, local municipal officials are not desirable.

Such suggestions are entirely welcome as much by this party as by any in this Ho;ise and the inference drawn by the Member for St. George that the use of the term ad hoe means that these local authorities are not confi dent to come forward with proposals for spend ing programs in the areas referred to; seems to be an unfo rtunate one, because I feel confi dent, on behalf of my leader , the mover of this resolution that there is no such inferenc e intended, no such insinuation intended in the resolution.

The member has referred to the fact that in Capital Spending Estimates the total appro priations for programs of this type are available to us, and that's true. But totals are one thing , Mr. Speaker, totals are one thing in the area of government spending, specifics are another, and I think it' s logical, eminently logical to anybody looking at the kind of use of the taxpayer's money that's involved in programs of this kind to assume that detailed specific scrut iny and examination of those appropriations is desirable. The sense and the direction of this resolution, Mr.

Speaker, is ent irely on the level of and in the direction of accounta bility for public spending. It's entirely compatible with everythip:g that we have asked in this Legis lature in the area of disclosure, government disclosure to the public of the details of the spend ing programs for which they're responsible. And the re' s nothing inconsistent whatever with the reqrnst contained in my leader's resolution and with the arguments that we have advanced in this area in this Legislature. The Member for St.

George I think would agree that we have asked for the fullest possible disclosure and accrn.mtability consistent with the open- government theme that the present government professes to follow, and not on merely one occasion. We' ve asked again and again for this type of government dlsclos:ire and all this res:Jlution does is underline that basic approach, that basic request that we have forwarded to them.

The resolution itself contains no criticism whatever of local authorities, municip al officials who are developing initiative programs in their area, It contains nothing but realism from a government point of view. And I think it's an eminently reasonable and responsible resolution for an Opposition to bring before a Legislature. I think, Mr. Speaker, if the Mem ber for St. George were sitting on this side of the House rather than the government side of the House he would agree that this is the type of resolution. that an Opposition should introd ace in a Chamber.

This is the kind of thing that an Opposition should be asking for. What else is the exercise all about? There's really no differenc e in what my leader is requesting in the resolution before us, no difference between that and the exercise of the examination of depart mental Estimates. There's no difference in essenc e between those two exercises. It's a primary, the primary respon sibility of the Opposition to scrutinize government spend ing. It's the primary responsibility of the government to assume the most conscientious control over spending.

And this res0lution dovetails with both those ambitions and both those courses of action. There's nothing wrong with this kind of scrutiny, there's nothing wrong with this kind of disclosure; and on the contrary, Sir, it seems to me to reflect the essence or the reason for the Legislative process that we'r e all involved in. Now the Member for St. George has said there are some excellent. programs that have come forward at the local level and there are s0me excellent initiati ves, with which we on this side fully concur. That there' s nothing in this resolution that would preclude that, Sir.

There's nothing here that will in any way inhibit local authorities and local governmental bodies from proceeding to inject the initiative in terms of program development that they have exer cise d and demonstrated in the past. And there's nothing here that precludes the possibility of such programs and such initiatives being accepted and being funded by the Provincial Govern ment.

All this says is that when you come d·Jwn to the actual operation of the program itself, to the actual dispensation and distribution of the taxpayer's money that's involved in the fun ding of the programs, that the taxpayer through the Legislature, through the accepted role of the Opposition has a right to scrutinize that spending down indeed to the dotting of the final "i"

May 9, 1973 2563 RE SOLUTION NO, 11 (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) ..... and the final cross ing of the "t". There are worthwhile initiatives and worthwhile programs coming forward no d·Jubt in regular government depart mental operations but the Member for St. George dJesn•t suggest that we on this side shouldn' t have the right to scrutinize the detailed spending connected with them .

He doesn't for one moment suggest that we dJn't have the right to look at every specific minute detail of spending in the Department of Health and Social Development or the Department of Labour or the Department of Highways or the De partment of Finance or any other department for which he and his colleagues as the members of the government of this province are responsible. So why does he get so up tight over the request for the Opposition' s right to be recognized in a paraliel capacity which is all this resolution seeks. After all, Mr.

Speaker, it's the taxpayer 's mon ey, ju st as much as it' s the taxpayers money going - the regular government departmental spending program s, and the taxpayer expects us in the Opposition to scrutinize the directions in which his money is being spent. So I wish lo support the resolution proposed by my leader and commend it to the govern ment benches, and espec ially to the Member for St. George who I think is reading into it, Sir, som ething that is not intended to be there.

The term ad hoe is not a dirty word, it's not a reflect ion on the wisdom or the conpetence of the local authorities and the local community boards with whom he's concerned. We're as much concerned with them. All that is meant here by the term ad hoe is that these are programs that have to some degree been developed in quasi- official ways or se mi- official ways to meet specific emergencies and meet specific needs. They are not programs that perhaps have been built into government planning in the classic sense .

Rather they are program3 that are constructed to meet specific situations which were not anticipated and which co :.ild not have been forecast. That's all that's meant by the term and I would hope that the Member for St. George would not read any hostility or any suspicion or any unpleas antness into it because there is none intended. MR, SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Aff airs.

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	29-5-93
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	29th 5th hansardpdf 93.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	22583980c7ad0a9338aa99b7c53c243d93d7c300

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).