Manitoba Hansard — 1 April 1982 (Sitting 25B, 32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-25b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thur sday, 1 April, 1982 Time - 8:00 p. m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - FITNESS, RECREATION AND SPORT MR. CHAI RMAN, Harry M. Harapiak (The Pas): This Committee will come to order. We are on Fit ness, Recreation and Sport. 1. (a)( 1) to 2.(a) (2) were all read and passed. 2. (b) ( 1) - the Member for La Verendrye. MR.

ROBER T (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendr ye ): bel ie ve maybe Grant Assis tance is the area where the grants are provi ded to the dis tric t recreation commit tees that are formed and the Member for Dauphin is going to - maybe I' m going to preempt him with a quest ion , but there has been a lot of pressu re from dif ferent groups over the years, to increase that grant.

One of the problems that we had, of course, was the fact that there were many new dis tri cts bei ng formed and even though there were no more funds provide d on an annual basis to the ones that had alr eady formed , that program has actually ex panded qu ite rapidly over the la st number of years and, of course, has I think been one of the programs whereby a lot of the municip aliti es as wel l as the school divisions in the rural areas that could n't get along very wel l before have sort of buried the hatchet as to say and worked together not only in a recreation program, but also in devel oping some of the faci liti es.

I think it streng thened some of the areas in which maybe some small, petty, smal l-town dif ferences or muni cipal di fferen ces have been brid ged by the introduction of a recrea tion di strict.

I'm wonderi ng if the Minis ter has had a chance at all to look at the levels of funding that the recreation dis tric ts receive and I guess the big gest pressure comes from the recreation workers who are tie d into a certain sal ary which the recreation commission of that particular area, I would say, is tie d in fai rly closely with what the kind of assistanc e the government's support is and without getting into a situa tion which I tal ked about before and the Min ister al lud ed to that you get in volv ed in the operational expen ditur es of a distinc t division.

It migh t be time to have a look at the basic grant le vel and see if there's any adj ustments that can be made apprecia ting that this item, I think, will probably grow in the next couple of years because there'll be a few more comm issions that come onstream from time to ti me. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Min ister. HON. LAURENT DESJA RDINS (St. Boniface): Yes , the member is absol utely right.

The grant having been increased, now, I think if we have a choic e with the economic situation that we have now is increased at the expense of new ones that might come in and I think that the im portant thing is to try to treat every body fai rly and we have an incr ease of $49, 000 and that will help with fiv e of the grants. There is no doubt that, as soon as we can, we would lik e to lo ok at the grants to see if there could be an incr ease, but there's no way that this will be done this year with the sit ua tion the way it is. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Dauphin. MR. JO H N PLOHMAN (Dauphin): Mr.

Chairman, just wanted to foll ow up on that jus t brie fly. I bel ieve the grant is lar gely to pay for a recreation dir ector in these commis sions. All of the gr ants are for that pur pose. I wonder how long the grant, for exa mpl e, in the Dauphi n-Ochre recreation dis trict has bee n at $8, 000.00. MR. DE SJARDI NS: Sinc e 19 77, the fi rst year it was inc orporated in. 10 50 MR. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chair man, now obvio usly in the fiv e years then, of course, the $8, 000 doesn't go near as far as it did fiv e years ago to pay for the salar ies.

As we all know, they're increasing qu ite dramatic al ly, and having been a member of the Dauphin-Ochre recreation dis trict la st year, I recall that we did send a letter to the then Min ister asking him to look at this and see whether there could be some consi deration. I would ju st draw that to the Min ister's attention to empha size agai n what the former Min ister has just said about those grants. MR. DE SJARDI NS: I'd lik e to remind the member that he's on our side, now that he's on the government sid e.

The same answer would go to the same ques tion , I guess, that this is something that wi ll have to be loo ked at. I don't think that program was never meant to pay everything; it was something to hel p dif ferent com munities. They can get together with other com munitie s and other muni cip al itie s to set up a recrea tional director which is something new, something a few years back they did n't have it al l. There was no hel p from the - I'm not debating that.

I'm sure that both members are absol utely right that $8, 000 today won't go as far as a few years ago, but we have to lo ok at the other prioriti es that we have. If we can go back a li ttle further than that, if we go back about eight years ago, there was nothing at all. I think this department had about $20,000 or $30, 000 to spend in all. So there's been an awful lo t of impr ovement done. That's not the only help they get; we have special ists that work for the department that are availa ble to help them, to consult with them and assis t them, but as I say I have no defence.

I'm not going to try to justify, to say that $8, 000 would go as far this year as it went a few years ago. But as I say, we choose to try and get more of the people that have not received anything at all, and once we've got most of the peopl e in, I guess we'll have to start looking to see if we can inc rease the grant. MR. PLOHMAN: Mr. Chairman, jus t to bring to the Mini ster's attention on whose side I am, I was ju st tryi ng to point out in a gentle manner that we did n't receive any increases la st year when we made the request, nor the year before.

Thu rsday, 1 April, 1982 MR. CHAI RMAN: The Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Thank you. I wonder if the Min ister could advise us briefly - I asked him a ques tion in the Legisla ture the other day with regard to the demand billing for recreation facil ities. The program I think is lo ttery funded, but it deals with recreation facil itie s and at that time, he mentioned that he was having a lo ok at it. I know there are a number of people that are wonderi ng what's going to happen. Ha s he finis hed his review on it? Wi ll he continue the program or where are we headed with that one? MR.

DE SJA RDI NS: I wonder if we could wait for that. This is just strict ly the grants on Recreational Di rector and wha t should be under Recreational Resources Devel opment (3), if you don't mind. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmw ood. MR. RUSSELL DOER N (E lmw ood): I just wanted to ask the Min ister whether here, or again under (d) - wanted to di scuss grants to community club s for var ious purposes including ke eping the buildings open. MR. DE SJA RDI NS: That wi ll be, if there's anythin g, under Recreational Resource Developme nt. This is strictly the Recreational Di rector Program. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ass inib oia. MR. RURIC (Ric) NORDMAN (Assinibo ia): Mr. Chai rman, I'm just on that $3 04,000, is that an eq ual amount to each one of the recreational di rectors? MR. DE SJA RDI NS: Ther e's a form ula on tha t depending on the popula tion. MR. NORDMAN: I see. So there's . MR. CHAIRMAN: I would li ke to caution the members once agai n it won't be recorded in Han sard if we just keep ex changing conversation here. The Member for Assini boia. MR. NORDMAN: So, you're loo ki ng at approxi mately 40 dis tric ts? MR. DE SJA RDI NS: No, not that many. Approx im ately 30. MR.

NORDMAN: Thank you, Mr . Chair man. MR. CHAIR MAN: The Member for Roblin -Russell. MR. J. WALL Y McKENZIE (Roblin-R ussell): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm wonderi ng the Recreational Director at Rossberg has been in contact with me in the la st two days; they're all set to go with a lo t of programs there. Under Sports Recreation '82, is that the same item as the - they want permission to go ahead with putting the floor in the rink. MR. DE SJARDI NS: Those are capital facil ity grants and those are lo ttery funds. We 'll come to that a bit la ter.

This is stric tly to help with the Recreational 10 51 Di rector in the community. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b)(

i) Salarie s-pass? The Member for Ni akwa. MR. ABE KO VNATS (Ni akw a): I just have a qu estion of the Mini ster. I would just li ke to ask some questions on some fin ancia l assi stance to teams that are repres enting the provinc e. Under what item would that be? MR. DE SJA RDI NS: Why don't we wait for Sport Development for that. MR. KOVN ATS: I'm prepared to wait as long as I know. It's under (f)? Fair enough. Thank you. MR. CHAI RMAN: 2. (b )

(1) Salarie s-pass; 2. (b)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass; 2. (b)

(3) Grant Assistance pass; 2. (c) (

i) Salarie s. MR. DE SJA RDI NS: Just a minute. I thin k that I should gi ve you a word of ex planation here. This is something that hasn't been worked out with the Fed eral Government as yet for Northern Affa irs. but we have the assurance from Cabi net that we will keep on with this program because that would pla ce a lo t of peop le out of work and Cabi net has agreed that we wi ll guarantee to fund the program if nobody els e does. MR. BANMAN: Could the Min ister gi ve us any in for mation as to the projected amount that would be ex pended in that particular area? MR. DE SJA RDI NS: Mr. Chairman, 364,000.

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Springfield. MR. ANDY ANSTET T (S pringf ield ): Mr. Chairman, is the full amount going to be recoverable from North ern Affa irs again this year? MR. DE SJA RDI NS: We certainly hope so. MR. ANSTET T : Mr. Chairman, if it is not, does that mean that there will have to be additional monies voted under this item? I'm not cle ar that if the money's not currently provided in Northern Affa irs and there is no agreement -(I nterjec tion) - the Member for La Verendrye sugge sts it's in the Enabling Vote. I would li ke that clarified. MR.

DE SJA RDI NS: Yes , it is wit h the Department of Fi nance in the Enabling Vote. All the money has been voted for and then if they can recover from the Nor th ern Affai rs so much the better. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(c) -pass; there's no amounts with in it so just pass. 2.(

d) Re creation Resources Development. MR. DESJA RDINS : Ex cuse me, there is no amount but I want to make sure the amount is $364, 000, the total amount. MR. CHAI RMAN: 2.(d)

(1) Sala ries.

Thur sday, 1 April, 1982 The Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Wel l, I pose the same question that I asked earl ier, Mr. Chair man, of the Min ister with regards to the demand billing. Has he got any inf or mation with regards to that program? MR. DESJA RDINS: I guess my answer would be the same - I can't elabor ate too much more - the same that I gave in the Ho use. This is a program that was provided to help dif ferent facil ities to counter act the high rates, and that was a program also to assist people to try and get them to save on energy and that hasn't been the case at all.

In that case its been a fai lur e because they fig ured it was the way it was set up, so we're reviewi ng the program. We will have a program; the program will be somewhat dif ferent. We're going ahead with this program, I think for this year, the way it is now, but the dif ferent facil ities will be inf ormed that we're changing that, and we are trying to develop a program that would help them, assis � them and giv e them some incentive to cut down on this energy thing ins tead of jus t saying that we'll pick up the extra cost. MR.

BAN MAN: I apprecia te that and I think one of the problems that we had is when the demand billing syste m was introduced by Manitoba Hydr o, it caught a lo t of people off guard and did create some fai rly large anomalie s. I noticed in the la st number of years that what was happening now is that because the demand billing rate is lo wer, some of the facil itie s in effect were benefi ting from the demand billing rate, even though at some time they thought it had hurt them.

But what happened really is that we had the hydro rates incr ease at a rate of 15 0 percent in a matter of three-and-a-half years, and people were really caught and thought tha t the demand millin g was to blame for it. I think that now with the rate freeze on, the people have been able to sort of plan better and have been able to cut back on power consump tion by doing things such as using the heat that the compressors generate to heat maybe part of their clu bhouse. We've seen some pretty in novativ e thi ngs.

I would encourage the Min ister to use people such as Bill McGr egor and his department who do an excel lent job of going out and tal king to people; helping them with their facil itie s and I think that is probably the way to go. Many of the rural, recreation facil itie s are bei ng built by recreation commissions, who very often are not experienc ed in either renovating or building new facil itie s, and can very often use the help of somebody who is knowledgeable in that field.

I think that type of assistance provided by the depart ment is val uable in reducing operati ng costs, reduc ing energy costs and many of the other related costs that can go, because if you build a facil ity that's more functional than it would be under normal cir cumstan ces, that's something that will in the long run save the taxpayer s in that particular municip al ity some money. So, I'd encou rage him to follo w up aggressively on that part of the program.

I guess the other question is, the Minis ter menti oned briefly in reply to questi ons in the Legis la ture the other day that he will be announcing a facil itie s program, I understand for about a milli on dolla rs. I guess one of the concerns that I would have is - urge the Min ister to announce it as soon as possible because a lo t of the municip al itie s have or are in the final stages of stri king their budgets and are wonder ing what is going to be avai lable. So, I would urge him to go ahead and ind ic ate to the people exac tly what is happening. Has he got a time frame?

Will he be announcing very shortly the program and what is going to happen? MR. DESJA RDINS: I would lik e to thank the member for his advice. We are very fortunate indeed to have somebody like Mr. McGregor, and in fact, he's the one that is the key man in this program, working for this group to do exact ly what has been sugge sted. I migh t say that la st year there was clo se to $97, 000 voted for that and this year I'm asking for 14 9. So, it's not a question that we're cutting the program but we're goi ng to look at the program.

As far as the capital program under lo ttery, the only dif ference has been that we've cut down from 2 mil lion in one year to 2 mill ion, it'll be announced a two-year program but it'll be 2 mill ion only for this until we catch up and try to make more money under the lo ttery revenue. We' re working on this now and I don't think it 'll be very much longer when we'll accept appl ic ations. MR. BANMAN: Is the Min ister comtempla ting that the cri teria will be very much the same as the la st program? MR. DESJA RDINS: I think a lo t would depend on the applic ations that we have.

If you have too many appli cations you migh t have to cut down a bit but we're not contempl ati ng having to do that at this time. MR. McKENZI E: That pretty wel l, Mr. Chairman, answers the question I was raising.

The Rossburn recreation dir ector and the municip al ities are keenly interested in getting started on their proposals: floor in the rink; upgr ade the basebal l diamond; showers at We llman Lake, and then putting a tractor shed out at the Ang usville rink because they're putti ng in artificial ice there. and they've been phoning me and wonder ing when the Min is ter could gi ve them the green ligh t so they could start their projects. So, I guess when the Min ister said it 'll li kely be this month sometime, they should get the green ligh t to either go or stop. MR. DESJA RDINS: Yes, Mr.

Chair man, I bel ieve it's safe to say that we'll have everything in pla ce this month. 10 52 MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I want to ask the Min ister about a problem which may be a munici pal problem, but I think he should be concerned about it as well.

That's the fact - and I'm going to use Winnip eg and El mwood as an ex ample - a lo cal community club in my area is Kelvi n on Henderson Hig hway, and they have I'm sure, grants that come, cer tainly from the ci ty and possibly from the provinc e for recreation pur poses, particu larly a di rector, and I suppose they may have other operating grants, but their particular pr ob lem is in keep ing the facili ty open. They have, lik e most other com munity club s or many other commun-

Th ursday, 1 April, 1982 ity club s, a volu nteer problem. They don't have a shor tage of tea ms; they struggle with coac hes and so on, but they seem to be able to manage that side of it and then they have a ful l-time - not necessari ly ful l-time - but they have a person who works there. The problem is this, they have the physical facil ity. They have the club; they have their rinks, their change-rooms, their lo cke rs and so on, but they don't have people to keep the club open. So you get into the ridicu lous situation of the club s bei ng cl osed during the week from Monday to Friday after 4:00.

I'm thi nk ing now especial ly of the wi ntertim e for skating and hockey, young childr en can't access that club until 6:00 at nig ht. I know a long time ago in Wi nnip eg it seemed li ke all the club s were open after 4:00 in par ticu lar . No w, I don't know what the pattern is but I know in my own area, at least one or two of the club s out of four or five are cl osed from 4:00 to 6:00 or from 3:30 to 6:00 whic h is ridiculous.

They are often also cl osed on Sundays, so it's fine if you have an organ ized team sport, but there's the problem - does the provi nce have any in put in this and can the Min ister suggest a solution? MR. DE SJA RDINS : Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is a problem, but we have enough of our own that we're not going to accept the probl ems that are the respon sibili ties of the municip al ities and the Ci ty of Wi n nip eg.

It seems that my honourable friend is descri b ing a la ck of interest in that community, and I'm surprised if that's the same com munity that we heard before dinn er that was so active in sports and so on. It seems to me they could get some vol unteers to show enough interest in the youngsters, and I thin k that if you're goin g to have a successful community cl ub, you need a lo t of vol unteers. Usually it is the parents who I've seen who work very hard in raising funds and in spendin g many hours.

I don't know; I can accept that there's a probl em, but I can't see what this department of the provinc e could do anything to change that at all if the int erest is not there. Our main thrust in this department is to help people help themselv es, not to im pose certain thi ngs and try to do everything for people. I remember when I was a youngster, we used to have to clean the ice and every thing and I think we probably got more out of it than having everything done for yourselves.

So if there's no interest in the community, we're not about to step in even is we had the fina nces and we certainly haven't got them. MR. DOER N: Mr. Chai rman, as the saying goes, when I was a youngster we used to roll and scrape and wate r the tennis courts, but you don't see anybody doing that nowadays. You also see com munity club s which are al ways threatened with clo sure because of a la ck of volu nteer partici pation. That hasn't been true in my end of town, but it's certainly been true in other parts of the city and maybe other parts of the provi nce.

But my question is this , are there grants that the provi nce giv es for Recreation Di rectors and als o for people to assist so that the club s can be kept open? Becau se, you know, it makes li ttle sense to have the physical structu re there, the teams there and so on and yet, maybe for somebody to put in a' couple of 10 53 hours a day, they can't seem to get somebody there for two, three hours a day, fiv e, six days a week.

I mean we're not talki ng about a great deal of money; I'm talki ng about a situation where for a portion of the day they apparently are unable to get somebody who will on a consis tent basis keep the club open. I'm just saying, does the province provide funding for this purpose or is this strictly in the hands of the munici pal ity in the local area? MR. DE SJA RDINS : No, the provinc e have no pro grams, no grants, for operating costs whatsoever in this field, and I would have to say that it would be a very low priority with us at this time. MR.

DOERN: Does the provi nce provide grants to individual community cl ubs, or is this agai n, this is done to the municip al ity and then parcell ed out for the capital or operati ng? MR. DE SJA RDIN S: The capital has in the past assi sted in some, depending on their request of the Cit y of Winnip eg. They could qual ify, could apply, depending on what the guide li nes wi ll be for a capital project, but that's something comple tely dif ferent. That's certainly not capit al project; it would n't be st retched to allo w any operating costs at all.

It would have to be for actual construction, or renovation, or impr ovement of facil ities. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Spring fiel d. MR. ANSTET T: Mr. Chair man, I wasn't sure if I understood the Min ister's answer to the quest ion from the Member for La Verendrye regarding the lo t teries grant monies this year. There was something about a two-year program, but with the fi rst year, this year, having in it approxi mately the same amount of money as was in the program la st year, is that correct? MR. DE SJA RDINS : The program has changed; there's been mill ions of doll ars spent in that program.

It has probably been one of the most success ful programs that we've had and it has enabled many municip ali tie s, many projects, to see the li ght in dif ferent areas of the provi nce. Now, in the la st few years, the department had earmarked $2 mil lion a year for this program. This year, because of la ck of funds in that particular fund that we had, it's pretty wel l deple ted. We can only put in a milli on dollar s instead of $2 milli on; in other words, we're announcing a $2 mil lion program but for two years, so it 'll be cut in half actually. MR. ANSTETT: Does this mean, Mr.

Chai rman, through you to the Min ister, that it is li kely the maxi mum amount available will drop again? It had been 25, 000, then it dropped to 20. Does this mean it will li kely drop again? MR. DESJA RDI NS: I don't remember when it was 25. MR. ANSTET T: Three years ago. MR. DE SJA RDINS: Oh, la st year?

Thur sday, 1 April, 1982 MR. ANSTET T: The la st two years ... MR. DESJA RDINS: It started at 20, 25. Well, these are some of the things that we're tryi ng to determine for thi s year depending on the applic ation and so on and that'll be announced as soon as we're ready to go. That's a possibil ity. I want to say that we had agreed that we'll be very fle xib le , but this is lo ttery funds. Lottery funds are not something that we're voting , it's something if the money is there, fine; if not, we cut down.

You have to have certain programs that will be able to - if the money is there, you're going to have a lar ger program; if not, you're going to have to cut down on the program. We have no other way of doing that; we have no choice in that at all. It is not a ques tion of vo ting more money in the Estima te. It 's not shown in the page that you have in front of you. MR. ANSTETT: Mr. Chai rman, my concern only was some idea as to what the maxi mum amount mi ght be for the larger municip al itie s, the ones that are entitled to the full amount on the per capita formula.

The la st two years it's been 20; prior to that it was 25. MR. DESJA RDINS: Mr. Chai rman, I would n't hazard a guess at this time because this is what we're working on. It depends a lo t on what we feel is needed and we will , as soon as possible , set up the guideli nes for the programs. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. HARRY GR AHAM (Virden ): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I wasn't too sure if I understood the Min is ter correctly when he was tal kin g about the demand billing and the program that has been in effect and he indi cated there was going to be some change in it.

Could the Min ister tell me once more what it was he was pla nnin g? MR. DESJA RDINS: It's been a grant, lik e the former Minis ter said, that it was something that had to be done fast and these grants al ways have to be reviewed. It hasn't done what was ex pected of it. It 's hel ped the facil itie s but the way it was done, it practi cally encouraged them to spend more money and there fore the doors of arenas were le ft open - a lo t of things like that. So, we certainly can't go along with that. It's not final ized yet; we're thinking of spend ing $1 49,000.00. We want to make through this, Mr.

McG regor, mostly there'll be an assess ment to see what is needed to have an expert opinion. There'll be a workshop; it 'll be an education for these people , how to conserve and save energy, and then there will be a grant to help them to do certai n thing s, either fix the windo ws or the doors and so on to conserve energy. It'll be a program that will gi ve them some assistan ce, but again, help them to help themselv es and gi ve them an inc entive to shoot at to try to conserve energy instead of the more they spend, the more money they'll make and someb ody else is picking up the shot. MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chai rman, I find it somewhat hard to belie ve that the communitie s would le ave the doors open and things of that nature where energy was wasted, because 95 percent of the total cost they bear themsel ves. The grant is a very small portio n of the total Hydr o cost. I think that if the Min ister has had a study done of that, I would apprecia te seei ng it. MR. DESJA RDINS: I would suggest that you speak to your col le ague to your right. I think tha t when this work, when this Mr. McGregor - I didn' t go and lo ok at all these facili tie s, I can assure you of that.

I'm going by rec ommendation of the government that I think that the former Minis ter is aware of some of the prob lems. I don't see why our people would make these kind of statem ents if they weren't true at all. I choose to bel ieve that there is something to that and I think it is a good program. I think it is high time that we reassess this program and giv e a li ttle more incentiv e and educate the people to try to help themsel ves in conservi ng energy. MR. GR AHAM: Mr.

Chai rman, to carry on a li ttle further, I belie ve there has been some rather exte nsive questi oning in the Chamber with respect to the pro posed polic y of the government with respect to hydro rates. I can assure the Min ister that all of these recrea tional commis sions are very concerned about hydro rates because it is the major portion of their budget.

If there is a review of hydro rates coming up, I would ask the Honourable Min ister to keep that in the back of his mind that these recreational commissions do have a problem and if there is any sign ificant increase in hydro rates there, it could be a considerable problem. So, I would suggest to the Honourable Min ister that perhaps he migh t do some lobbying in Cabine t and if there is an unfreezing of hydro rates, maybe he could prevai l on his colle agues to keep a freeze on recrea tional facil itie s. MR. DESJA RDINS: Mr.

Chai rman, I don't in tend to be drawn into an argument on Hydro at this ti me; this is not my responsibil ity. I think that the honourable member should reali ze what we are trying to do, and I think he should encourage us in tryi ng to tel l the people of Manitoba that it's im portant to conserve energy, to giv e them grants to help fac il itate these things of taking care of the windo ws or doors or some facil ities. Mr. McG regor was mentioned; I think that we all agree, those that know him, those that have heard about him that we are very fortunate to have a man such as he in the department.

We' re going to use him as much as we can. I don't apologize for this program; it was a program that was, I bel ieve, started under the former government. I buy it 100 percent; I think it's much more important with the lim ited funds that we have that we educate the people to take care of these fac il itie s instead of having a program that will encourage poor management and we're not about to continu e in doing that. MR. GR AHAM: Well, Mr. Chai rman, I hope the Min is ter is not mi sconstruing what I'm attempti ng to say to him.

I am ask ing him, urging him to act on behalf of the various recreational commissions if there is a review of hydro rates. I hope that he understa nds the posi tion they're in and the effect that a hyd ro rate could have in the future and all I'm doing is ask ing the Minis ter if he would consider it with his Cabi net col- 10 54

Thur sday, 1 April, 1982 leag ues if they do atte mpt to review the Hydr o rates? MR. DESJA RDINS: Mr. Chai rman, I understood per fectly the member is trying to draw me into a debate that I don't intend to go in at this ti me. The member knows that I'm a member of the Treasury Board and knows that I'll have a part - that I'll be consult ed like all the others before we make that decisio n. Of course, the concern that I have in representing my department and another concern that I have, I thin k he can rest assured that I wil l voice my opini on. MR. GR AHAM: We ll, I thank the Honourable Minister. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkf i eld Park. MRS. GE RRIE HAMMOND (Ki rkfie ld Park): Yes , Mr. Chai rman, I appreciate the energy conservatio n part and I thin k that's a good idea. I'm just wondering if they wi ll be consider ing when they're doing the grants if they"ll be apportio ned pos si bly to the type of the buildin g, and I'm thinking particularly of a building that we have in my area that was built in a time when energy was no object and it's a parti cula rly hard type of building to heat.

I imagine that it would take a l ot of extra funds to try and get that parti cular building into any kind of shape that would really be an en ergy saver and I just wonder when they're look in g at this if they mi ght be consider in g the building? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. MR. DESJA RDINS: I thin k that is a very good point.

I can't announce any program at this ti me but I can assure the member that I personally wil l be quite con cerned wit h thi s and if need be, once these people have done everything that they could, we could have a program la ter on, something li ke our Capital Program or enl arge that Capita l Program to enable people to make some changes to their building if it's worth it; if the buildings are in good shape to do exact ly that.

I think in thi s day and age we have to be conscio us about saving energy and it becomes very, very impor tant, so it 's a point that we will take into consider ation and consider very seri ously. MR. CHAIRMAN: Recreation Resources Development (d) (

l) Salar ies -pass; (d)

(2) Other Expend it ures pass; (d)

(3) Grant Assista nce-pass; 2. (

e) Fi tness Development, 2(e)

(1) Salar ies - the Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairm an. I be lieve la st year the Federal Go vern ment announced that they would be doing a Fit ness Test ing Program rig ht across Canada and I'm wo ndering if the Minister has had any resul ts from that to tell us how Manit obans stack up against the rest of Canada. In other words, is the average Manito ban just as fit as the average Swede? MR. CHAIR MAN: Mr. Minister. MR. DESJA RDINS : Mr. Chai rman, I understand that we're certainly at the nati onal average, that's in Can- ada.

Now, where we fit compared to the Swedes, I guess may we'll have to ask the Duke of Edin burgh, who told us a few years ago that we were way behi nd. I thin k in all seri ousness that there has been a big impr ovement in the la st few years. I perso nally never thought that I'd see as many people so consci ous about fit ness. We're taking this program very serio usly.

We're working wit h seni or citiz en people and also thi s is an area that we want to take resources from the Department of Heal th; it's easy in thi s case, I don't have to argue wit h any other Mi nister and I can tell you that we want our Home Ee Department and our dieticia ns to work in this department to set up pro grams because we fee l like fit ness and diets, proper eating habits go toget her. We're enlist ing the hel p, the assis tance of the Department of Education to work also in thi s area to try and do away wit h junk food in these areas as much as possible to educate the public. MR.

BANMAN: I wonder if the Minister could tell us, wil l a report be made by the Federal Government wit h regards to the nati onal sort of testing program, wil l that be made publ ic or wil l it be provided on a confi dential basis to the respective Mi nisters of the provin ces, or what is anticipated to happen wit h the data that they have col l ected from rig ht across Canada? MR. DESJA RDINS: I must be very honest wit h the member, thi s is news to me, I did n't even know there was such a thing. Off the top of my head, if there's a report I don't see why we wouldn' t make it publ ic.

I'm anxio us to see it, I did n't know that thi s was the case and I'm sure that we wil l make it publi c. MR. BAN MAN: Wel l, maybe the Minister could check into it and if there is anything that his department is receivi ng and could pass along to the Members of the Legi sla ture, I'd appreciate havin g a report or hearing what the results of the survey were, because I know that the department did co-operate wit h them in a number of areas and I thin k that some of the Mini sters rig ht across Canada were anxio us to expand it some what.

I don't know if that exact ly happened in Mani toba but I would be anxio us to see what the results were. MR. DESJA RDINS: I would like to thank the member for that; to bring it to my attention and we're taking note of that. I understand that the educated guess is it could be by the end of this fi scal year someti me; apparently it 's not quite ready. As soon as we have it, we wil l certain ly give the inform atio n to the publ ic and to the members. 10 55 MR.

BANMAN: The other thing, of course, is the thing that the Minis ter touched on in his role as Mini s ter of Health, fit ness development becomes a very impor tant part of - in the car business we call it preventive maint enance ... MR. DESJA RDINS: In the funeral business we call it staying ali ve. MR. BAN MAN: I have to say to you that it is, I believe, an impor tant part of our overall health program in trying to reduce some of the costs wit hin the system

Thur sday, 1 April, 1982 and that I would encourage the Mi nist er to work toget her wit h the Federal Government on programs such as Participaction and others to try to heig hten the publ ics awareness of what a litt le bit of exe rcis e, what a lit tle bit of watc hing your proper foods can do to go ahead and make you a healt hier in divid ual. So, I would encourage the Minister to contin ue to pursue that course, knowing full well that it' ll probably benefit him on the other side and maybe he'll have to ask for less money for Health next year. MR. DESJA RDINS: I'd be very ple ased to accept the suggestio n of the honourable member. MR. CHAIR MAN: 2. (

e) Fit ness Development,

(1) Salar ies -pass; 2.(e)

(2) Other Expen di tures-pass; 2. (

f) Sport Devel opment (1) - the Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: A number of questio ns here, Mr. Chairman. First of all, there was a meeting of Mini s ters, I think, just during the el ectio n which I did n't attend; I think the Deputy attended it, and at a meeting just, I believe, six months prior to that there was going to be a real attempt made to sort of set down a delin ea tio n of authority if you want to call it.

In other words, what the Provincial Government would more or less be respons ible for in the area of games as wel l as eli te athle te developm ent, and what the Provincial Gov ernment would be responsible for, in other words, the natio nal-provincial split. I don't really think that there have been many large problems wit h regard to that, exce pt that when one deals with something like the Canada Games, it becomes a fairly costly thing and I know the Federal Government is constantly reviewing their role in it.

I'm wondering if the Mini ster has had a chance to di scuss any of this wit h his federal counterpart, in other words, the assis tance to athl etes, the El ite Athle te Program that the Federal Government carries on ver sus the program such as we have here, the ManPlan Program, and if there's been any meeting of the minds or any rule s or regula tio ns establishe d as to who's going to do what, and who's going to be lo okin g after the dif ferent athle tes that are, in this day and age, trying to excel in the parti cular sport they are engaged in . MR. DESJA RDIN S: Mr.

Cha irman, I'm qu ite concerned at this point because again I thin k the Federal Government is trying to push more and more of their responsibili ty to the provinces. Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to speak to the federal Mi nister and I suggest that we should have a meeting fairly soon, but I can give the members of thi s Committee an example.

The Wes tern Canada Games that we've had for a number of years now, the '83 Games were supposed to be held in Calg ary and of course the Province of Al berta are quite anxio us to have a kind of a dry run or a dress rehearsal for their big ger games and they're anxi ous to have these games. So far, apparently, the Federal Government is saying that they wil l no longer pay for transportation of the athle tes. Now, I've informed the Province of Alb erta that it would n't be fair not to advise them at this time and if thi s is the case, there's no way that Manitoba wil l be able to go.

We haven't got the funds in this situ atio n, the econ omy being the way it is , and wit h the limi ted funds that we have it certainly would n't be a prio rity that we would send. Although we thin k it is very impor tant, we thin k it is a responsibili ty of the Federal Government. They ju st announced that they had games in the north and they paid for transpo rtatio n. I think this is an ex ample of the west havin g a bad deal again. We haven't got the competitio n that they have in the East and so on, and the western Mini sters together are unit ing to try to have Mr. Regan change his mind on that. MR.

BANMAN: Wel l, I'd urge the Mi nister to hang tough on that one because as he mentio ned one of the big gest problems we have wit h the large province that we have, and the sparse popula tio n rel ative to a lot of other areas such as in eastern Canada, one of the problems that the athle tes do have is to try and fi nd competitio n at their parti cular level, and one of the areas where you can do that is at thi s form of games. The Wes tern Canada Games which I had the priv ilege of attending several years ago, was one which I think did defini tely lend to the devel opment of sport in the province.

So, I'd encourage him to hang tough on thi s one and, hopefull y, the Federal Government will see fit to come up wit h some of the funds for travel assist ance. Another questio n wit h regards to Sport Develop ment, and I guess we could have asked it under regio nal sectio n, but is the Wi nter Games which we've just had. I guess some people wil l have other opin io ns, but from what I can gather havi ng been involv ed in the setting up of the games as well as now observ ing how they were carried out, they seem to have been a fairly good success.

One of the benefits of the games was that it did n't require massive amounts of money and, from what I could see, a lo t of local people got involved . I know just on the lo cal pla ydowns in the eastern region we had a lo t of activi ty, a lo t of vol un teers involved, and they seem to have come off fairly wel l. I'm wondering if the Ministe r, who has been travel ling to Flin Flon and out to Boissevain and I think a few other pla ces, could jus t give us hi s brief overview of what he thinks the future of these games hold and this type of a format.

I know that some of the peo ple in Wi nnipeg weren't happy because these were rural games, but I stress again that one of the problems that we have is that the rural people very often feel, not only the sports organizatio ns, the diffe rent sports governing bodies that are out there, they feel that maybe they're being negl ected somewhat and don't receive the service that the people in the City of Win nipeg do.

I know some of the facili ties we have out in the rural areas aren't what we have in the ci ty, but I thin k thi s is one way of going ahead and producing a good competitive spirit out there and I beli eve the rural pe ople were appreciativ e. 10 56 I'd be inter ested in hearing what the Mini ster's assess ment of it is and whether or not he thinks thi s is the type of thing that we should be trying for, maybe a summers games in a year or so. MR. DESJA RDINS: Mr. Chairm an, I thin k the member

Thur sday, 1 April, 1982 knows of my inte rest for these games. I thin k when they were first started, we had dreams of brin ging in the Manitoba Games. We started in the toughest region in the north and it was a very good success, then we had the Manitoba Games. I'm very ple ased wit h the games that are ju st fin is hed. I thin k that in all respects it's been a real suc cess. I have no criticis m at all, but I must admit that, alth ough I have an open mind on that, I'm going to look very serio usly at the possibilty of bringing back the Manit oba Games. I thin k there's advantages there also.

When I say Manitoba Games, that is all Manitoba. I would like to enlarge them, for inst ance, to have instead of just an Olymp ics for the seniors to have the seni ors partici pate in these games, one or two sports, to mix wit h the younger crowd, to have some of their vol unteers, some of their organize rs, some of the ath le tes. As I said la st year, I feel that the community is very impor tant. I would like to see the handic apped participate wit h that. No, maybe that dream is some thing that mi ght ne ver happen, but we're certainly going to work in that area.

I thin k that we can bring the City of Wi nnipeg in there provi ding there are certain rules. Let me remin d the members that Winnipeg did not win the la st Mani toba Games. The people fi gured, oh well, there won't be a competiti on, Wi nnipeg will win everything. I think that could be taken care of in the kinds of sports and the rule s that we have. I don't think that anybody partici pating, for instance, in le vel A hockey wil l every be permitted to pla y in that. I was in Sel kirk just a couple of weeks ago where they had the oldtimer s pla yi ng hockey.

I don't think that they can ice a better team of oldt imer s and people over 35 in Wi nnipeg than they could in some of these areas. I thin k it 's good to be competitiv e. I think there is something lacking when you brin g these athle tes jus t to go in a region and they are partici pating - as I said I'm not complaining - but I think there's some benefit under a truly Manito ba Games, also. It was great in Sel kirk where they have the hockey, and then we travel led to Gimli where they had track and fi eld.

But the fever, the spir it of the thing when you bring all these athle tes together, I think it 's worth that. I think where you develop these kin ds of leader s also and officia ls and volu nteers. I think that's impor tant also and then, of course, it goes wi thout saying that the leg acy that you le ave for the facili ties such as we did in Neepawa a few years ago are remembered. I met many people in these games that became le aders in these Manito ba Games that are now the leader s and in charge of these regi onal dis tricts and they speak very fondly of the Manito ba Games that we had in Neepawa.

They had facili ties on a smaller scale, of course, than the Manito ba Games in Brandon had. It goes wi thout saying that lar ger centers would never be chosen. I'm talking about Win nipeg and Brandon and areas like that for the Manitoba Games; it wi ll always be a rural center. I have an open mind on that, but if I have any bi as, the bias would be to favour a truly Manitoba Games to try and incorp orate as many people in our society as possible and bring them all together for a good ti me, good competitio n and sportsmanship. MR. BANMAN: I know what the Mi nister's tal king about.

The problem, of course, we have in Manitoba is that we only have two large centers and it becomes very, ver y di ffic ult for any rural area to host the size of a total games concept, and I guess one of the benefits of doing it the way it was done now was that it gave a lo t of smaller communities the chance to bid on a particular gam13.

I appreciate that you don't have the vil lage setup and you don't have all the athle tes min gl ing from all the diffe rent sports and it doesn't le ave the atmosphere, but I guess given the lo gi stics prob lems that we have wit hin thi s province, it 's one way of maybe le tting everybody have a crack at it who would normally not have that opportunity. I just ask him to keep that in mind when he's lo oking at the whole thi ng. MR. DESJA RDINS: As I stated, I think these games have been qui te a huge success. I'm not knocking them, but if there's any way of impr ovement I say we'll go wit h an open mind.

It is not more diffic ult for a smal ler center to hold the Manito ba Games than Brandon to have the Brie r, for instance. It gets the best our of people when you have to hustle to get rooms. I think it's terrific some of the things Brandon did in the Canada Games, the Brier, the Fig ure Skat ing Championship; they proved that they could do it and it's a very, very smal l pla ce to hold such a thing as the Brier, and I think that many of the centers of Manitoba could hold a Manitoba Games, such as Ne epawa did , Dauphin. I don't think it's that di ffic ul t.

You have to exert yourself a bit ; you have to count on a lot of vol unteers and it becomes a big thing for that town that they're not ready to forget too soon. As far as getting more people to get a chance, don't forget that we would have all regi onal games leading to the Manitoba Games, so many centers would be involved, But as I say again, we're starting wit h an open min d.

We're getti ng reports from thi s game and we look at it very, very seri ously, but I thought I'd be honest wit h the members and say that if I have any bias rig ht now it's towards the Manitoba Games as I say, wit h the handic apped, senior citi zens people. We don't have to look at any other model; if we can start our own model here, we're happy. 10 57 MR. KOV NATS: Just a few remarks and I don't imagine we'll be going too much longer on thi s department.

First of all, I'd like to say that I'm very disappointed of the lack of members attending the int errogatio n of the Mini ster, particularly the members of the government side. I think that it would be encumbent that thi s department is of some impor tance, moreso than what it appears just from a lo ok around. At one time, there was more staff than ele cted representatives liste ning to the Estima tes. After havi ng said that, -(I nterje cti on)- I realize, but I think that we are too. It's incu mbent that we be here.

First of all, I come from a very uniq ue area and represent a very uniq ue area, which is part of St. Boni face and St. Vi tal . There are five particular members from that area, people that represent St. Bo niface , Ri el, St. Vi tal , Niakwa and Radis son. We all have the same problem. Our area develops some of the fi nest athle tes ever to come out of the Province of Manitoba and it does present us wit h a problem inas much as they do represent the Province of Manit oba

Thur sday, 1 April, 1982 on occasio ns. They travel to other provinces and to other countries to represent the province. Over the la st few years, and I'm not going to condemn thi s government because the one previo us and the one previo us to that never did fund it to the extent that I would have hoped that they would be funded. At le ast gi ve them some assista nce when they're going on their trips representin g the province; in small things ; in large things ; in money; in paraphernal ia; selling the province ; representin g the province, and telling the people what type of great province we have.

I was wondering whether the Honourable Minister can advise if there's any program to help fund not jus t my area, I was speaking wit h a li tt le bit of tongue in cheek there, but all the areas in the Province of Mani toba. Is there any extra funds, any grants, that are gi ven to these athle tes so that it would assist them and it would n't provid e them wit h a hardship when they in fact are representing our province in nati onal and intern atio nal com petitio n? MR. DESJA RDINS: Mr.

Chairman, there is nothing I would like better than to be able to tell the honourable member yes, that we're working on a program to do ju st that, but I would be mi sle ading him something awful. There is only so much money. We start dealing wit h the sports bodi es themselv es. First of all. we have a very costly Sports Ad mini stra tion Centre that helps all these club s in direct ly, but through their sports. There's also diffe rent programs that wi ll give certain money to the sports themselv es, the sports associatio n, and they determine how to do it.

Let me say thi s to my honourable fri end, that there's about 64 recognized groups; I thin k there's 64 sports. The hockey alone has 53 provinc ia l champi onships. That's hockey alone, plus all the other litt le groups who come to see you and me that want assista nce and you'd lo ve to be able to do it, and you just can't do it because it would be im possible. You can't do those kin ds of things .

The same people that are saying that the taxes are too high, that we have to be careful and especi ally being an NDP government, we'd take an awful chance of we did that because we'd be throwing money away, so this is not something that you're about to get. I'm sorry, but there's many club s that are very successfu l. I have a couple of grandsons that are pla ying hockey and I've gone around and seen the way they work. Your old buddy, Harold Laster and the old Vince Leah team, they bring the Colts away. They have a tea at Eaton's; they've had that for years; they have raffle s; they have everythi ng.

I'm sure you've poured tea there many times and, unfortunately, there's not much we can do on that. You can just imagine 53 champi onships and you're not talking only about champio ns; you're talking about any club that has an inv itatio n to go to Grand Forks or Brandon or maybe to Europe, and the y're going to be the ambassador, and we know that's all true, but ju st imagine how much you would have to spend to help these people.

It 's comp letely impo ssible. -(I nter je cti on)- Yes , 53 and there's many more than that, but my grandson is in Brandon rig ht now and if he win s, he has to go to Kelowna, B.C. and he was told and his coach was told, no way are you going to get 10 58 any help. I'm sorry. MR. KO VNATS: Thank God your grandson doesn't take after his grandfather in sports ability. MR. DESJA RDINS: He's a fantastic pla yer, qui te the contrary, he's a very good pla yer. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. KOV NATS: We seem to have an awful probl em.

You're going to be criticiz ed for wasting and squand ering money anyway, so one more real ly would n't matter. MR. DESJA RDINS: If you join the party after the way you've been seen to spend money on school and so on, I mig ht consider it . MR. KOVN ATS: Wel l, you know, now you've brought up another point. -(I nterjecti on)- I wasn't the one who brought it up, but I was going to take the oppor tunity of asking the Honourable Mini ster of Educatio n a couple of questio ns. But it's not her department and I'll carry on just wit h Fi tness and Sports and Recrea tio n tomorrow.

But the problem I have -y ou mention that there are so many hockey teams in the provin ce that, you know, would it be fair to give to one and not to the other? I thin k the thing that comes to mind is that over the la st couple of weeks I've been quite involved wit h some thing very very im portant, very im portant, and this most im portant thing that I've been involved wit h has been the parents of a girls' ringette team. It 's a cham pi onship team and they're going to Ha lifax to repres ent the province. It 's the Bo nivi tal, and I think it's the Bel le s or the Peti tes, I'm not sure.

But unless the members of this group have never seen a ringette game, your missi ng one of the greatest exhib it ion of sports that there's ever been my opportunity to wit ness myself, and it's jus t beauti ful. It provides these young la dies wit h an opportunity to partici pate in sports;

whereas these young la dies have never had the opportunity to pa rti cipate in sports in previo us years. We've al ways shunted the female s to the back of the bus and -(l nterjectio n) pardon, you don't want to sit at the back of the bus. Wel l, we've shunted the female athle tes to the back of the bus, it's jus t an exp ressi on. I'm not going to use, like getting into bed wit h somebody, because it 's kind of a vulg ar exp ressio n and I realize that. The la st time that an expressio n simil ar to that was used it caused an awful furore but I'm not going to get into that.

I think the problem is that the young la dies have never had the opportunity in sports as the young men have had in hockey. Her e is a chance for us to support these young la dies in a sport that is going to catch on and be something great in the province in the next short ti me.

It 's jus t going by leaps and bounds. - (In terjec ti on)- Wel l, I thin k that we've di scrimin ated against these young la dies for too many years, and I think it's ti me that we show that they are on an equal basis and maybe even a li ttle bit mor e for them for the next litt le while to show them that we understand their posi tio n, and that they are goin g to be representing the provin ce and parti cularly thi s team that comes

Thur sday, 1 April, 1982 from our area, Mr. Mi niste r, and some of them come from your area too. I think that we should be looking at them, because I think that if we support them par ti cularly wit h some fi nancial support and I'm reaching into my pocket and giv ing a li tt le bit of my own, but I thin k that the province should be able to. -(l nter jecti on)- Wel l, it's just a litt le bit, that's all I can afford. But I thin k that the province should consider gi ving these young la dies some fi nancial support, some litt le paraphernalia, some buttons to take wit h them when they represent the province.

They're le aving very soon, and as a matter of fact, there's a social this coming week-end to try and raise money for them because some of the parents jus t can't afford to send their kid . They're forced to send their kid because, you know, it would be such a traumatic experie nce to wi thdraw them from sending their child, even though they can't afford it. But somehow they're coming up wit h the money and I thin k that the province should be able to come up on sort of short notic e, because nobody really told them that they would be represent ing the province.

Sure they can say, no, we're not going to represent the province. You know, we did n't know it was going to cost thi s kind of money, we're not going to go. But th ey've accepted the responsibili ty and they are going to send their kids and they need some help, Mr. Mini ster, le t's give them some help. I impl ore you, Mr. Minister, would you kin dly have a look and see if there's any funds avail able to assist them? MR. DESJA RDINS: Mr. Chairman, I've had a look a long time ago; there's nothing there. Afte r we give the Sports a direct grant of at le ast $755,0 00 for di fferent things, there's not much le ft.

I think that there is not a department under the previo us administ ratio n, and the one before that, that has impr oved so much over the la st 8, 9, 10 years as this department. I remember the only thing when Al Mil ler, the Deputy Minister, when he started, was brought in because Deif enbaker at the time had commi tted $5 million for all Canada. It was a part under Welfare, of all things. It was a direc torate in recreation, so you'd be able to be in line to have the hand out and get some of that money.

No t that long ago, there were a few thousand doll ars, and now it's mil li ons of dolla rs and there's no way that we can do everything. I would think that a member of the rig ht-wing Con servative Party would understand that, because that money doesn't grow on trees. I thin k somebody told me that not too long ago. There's only so much that we can do, and we would lo ve to do it as much as my honourable fri end, but we deal with first of all the admini stratio n centre, direct grant. We can give you a list of some of the grants that we have. We give all the champio nship certain pin s.

There has been a lo t of progress under the former admini st ratio n. We were jus t starting to have a poli cy on thi s questio n of pins and medals, recognition when they come in. They have a medal if they win a world cl ass athle tes, and then the Canad ian champ io nship, or Manitoba champio n. We're progressing in that area. We've done an awful lo t but there is no way. I know that you and I would like to maybe jus t do it for St. Boni face and ex clude the others, but I can't do that.

If V'{e do it for one, I say to my honourable fri end, we have to do it for hundreds and thousands of teams because every week-end there's a bunch of teams that are going out. The former Attorney-General acco mpanied his son on a tournament la st week and they're going all the time, so it is im possib le. Ther e are other prio ritie s, we wil l help and we wi ll start dealing wit h the sports group. Then there are certain areas that they have a choice; all the teams don't need the same thin g.

Some of them want to hold provincial champio nships, and dominion champio nships, some others need equi p ment, other needs facili ti es, help in the facili ti es. If you add all that is done for Sports and Recreation, there's been an awful lo t of progess through this department; through maybe Nor thern Affairs; through the Department of Educatio n because there's a lot of sports in there too; the Uni versity Grants Commis si on. There are millions and millions of dol lars. I think that we'd like to do more, my honourable frie nd knows that, we come from the same background, but we have to be responsib le. MR.

KO VNATS: We ll, I was ju st going to tell you what happened. Actu ally I thought tha t when I had heard the presentatio n from the Honourable Member for Dauphin

whereas he had spoken to the Honourable Minister and the Minister lo oked like he was agreeing and was going to provide some extra funds for the Dauphin area. That's why I thought wel l, you know, if he can get extra funds for Dauphin I would just, for whatever purposes, I would lo ve to see my lit tle girls get some extra funds. They are my litt le girls; I've had the opportunity of associat ing wit h them in the la st short ti me and they're a wonderful bunch. I thin k that I'm not going to try and push any more. 10 59 We don't really have the time to try and get these funds from you at thi s time, Mr.

Minis ter. The y were talking about building a covered arena, not wit h artifi cial ice, would that come under this - you know, we're just about finis hed - may I jus t speek on that for a min ute also? MR. DESJA RDINS: Mr. Chairm an, you're talking about the Capital grant on ... We've covered that, but go ahead. MR. KO VNATS: We ll, I would wait until the Mi nister's Salar y, if you prefer, but fair enough, I'm not going to ask you any questio ns on it. I'm ju st going to bring up that in my area, they are trying to develop this ringette and make it into a sport that's going to be something for the future.

You know, we're not trying to build professi onals, but we are trying to provide a facili ty for them. Some of the people in the area had sug gested that we do have a covered stad ium wit h some seats and wi thout artif icial ice, but if you 've got it covered, you can start earlier and finish la ter and I don't thin k the capital cost is going to be that great.

I don't want to get down into the detail s, but they thought that they could do it by making arrangements to get one of the nig hts at the Convention Centre with the lo ttery, you know, the gaming nights and they had made applic atio n and they were refused. Is there any chance that thi s group can make applic ati on, get a permit to raise enough money and it's not for travel and games; but to provide for a new covered arena?

Thur sday, 1 April, 1982 MR. DESJA RDINS: You're tal king about the ci ty, the city has received an awful lo t of money from thi s province for the arena. There was half -a-million dol lars la st year, half -a-mil lion doll ars this year, another half -a-million and $700,000 I guess to come; there's been an awful lo t of money. You le ave some choice to the city .

Now the ringette's share, the same concern as my honourable fri end; that was something rather new for me the ringettes, I was over to see a tourna ment - a good tournament - and both my wife and I went over that Sunday for the cl osing exe rcise, we were very much im pressed .

I can say that there's been some discrimin atio n, I agree wit h my honourable frie nd that for a while there's been some di scrimina tio n and I make the commi tment that the Province of Manitoba - it's very litt le - but the Province of Mani toba wi ll do everything possible to have their ringettes in cl uded as a sports at the next Canada Wi nter Games. Thi s is one thing that we wi ll push; we think that they should have a chance. They're terrific ath letes. I was very, very surprise d.

Now, on these other facili ties, as I say there was a grant of millions of doll ars to the City of Wi nnipeg for the Arena that they have now and there is also grants that have hel ped to build other facili ties and if we open the grant - unfortunately the member wasn't here when we discussed the grant - but there is a Capital Grant that was started ten years ago or so and is going on and it has been a very successfu l program. So as the money comes in - it is money from the lo ttery - so if there is a lot of money there, there wil l be more for the program; if not, there wil l be less. MR.

KOVN ATS: Thank you, Mr. Chairm an. The Hon ourable Minister mentio ned that there was - about this Sports Exc elle nce Award , which is the gold, the si lver and the bronze - I've had the honour and the priv ilege of representing the province in presenting these awards to champio nships for the Province of Manitoba.

I would jus t like to go on record rig ht now that it's one of the greatest thril ls, really, to present these young champio ns wit h these Sports Exc ellence Awards and I would hope tha t wit h this change in government that I mig ht still be considered to make these presentatio ns, particularly in my area. I'm not looking to make them in other areas. I think that there is some sort of unwrit ten rule that government members only make these presentati ons, but I would be more then just a lit tle pl eased to make these pres entatio ns on behalf of the New Democratic Govern ment.

I would n't sli ght them, I would ju st do it my own li tt le way as I've al ways done it not as a poli tic al point. MR. DESJA RDINS: It would be very tempting to use you, but I' m afraid you wil l give us a bad name the way push that money around. MR. KOV NATS: I've not done it in the past, but I guess I'm getting to be a litt le bit of poli ti cal animal and I guess when I want somethin g, I guess I'm going have to be a bit of a poli tic al anim al.

Is there any advice now that the Honourable Mini ster can advise this group, whether in fact that the government wil l be contin uing wit h the Sports Exc elle nce Award and maybe even expanding on it? 10 60 MR. DESJARDINS: Yes, I think it's something that was really started going in your admini stration; we're pl eased wit h it and if we can im prove it, we wil l. MR. KO VNATS: Thank you. I thin k that I'm prepared to give the Honourable Minister credit for it, but cer tain ly the former Mi nister of Fi tness and Sport had a lot to do wit h it too. -(I nterjectio n)- I'm just agree ing with you.

I tell you I've got to jus t say thank you to your staff for the comple te co-operatio n that I've had with most of them in the past - when I say most of them, some of them I don't know, but the ones that I do know have been most co-operative in supp orting amateur sports in the province. Now, I'll ju st get down to one more point. In 19 52 or thereabouts, I had the priv ilege of pla ying on a cham pio nship foo tball team and I represented the City of St. Bo niface, the Nor wood-St. Bo niface Legi onnair es and we won a Domi nion Champio nship and we were represented wit h rings for the City of St. Bo nif ace.

I was just so pl eased and ela ted to have represented my City , the one I was born and brought up in and you know my whole backgr ound is of St. Bo niface, and they presented us wit h City of St. Bo niface rings. Wel l they were rings and it was Mayor Ed Hansford, I guess was the mayor at the ti me, and he made the presenta tio n and it was rings with the crest of the City of St. Boni face. I think that the Honourable Minister had a great deal to do with the organizi ng of that partic ul ar champio nship game in the City of Wi nni peg.

It was the Peterborough Orphans were brought here and the Honourable Mini ster at that ti me, I think was a coun cil lor in St. Bo niface and did an awful lo t of work, and I've only got one questio n to ask the Honourable Min is ter: I've lo st the crest on the ring, wh ere do I get it repl aced? MR. DESJA RDINS: I mig ht even have one at home, I'll lo ok. If not, we'll ask Juba to give you one of Win nipeg 's. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Vir den. MR. GR AHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Chairm an.

I would like to get back to the subject of the Wi nter Game s again , and through the Chairman to you, I want to say that the West man region is the area that I probably know best in the province and to watch the activities of the Winter Games in the past month, it was very gratif yi ng to see the small communities tak ing part. I thin k that there was much more participa tion this year than in previ ous years.

I don't suppose the book has been cl osed yet on the anal ysis of the Win ter Games and I would be inte rested in knowing whether the decentra lizat io n did in fact have greater participat io n throughout rural Manit oba and whether or not it was more cost ly or le ss costly. Wou ld the Minister have some informa tion on that? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mi nister. MR. DESJA RDINS: Thi s is some inform ation that we're compiling now. I don't thin k that you can make a necessarily fair compari son, every chance that you've had, you get better at it.

I thin k that there has been only two Manitoba games and more of these regional

Thur sday, 1 April, 1982 games and it is a much more di ffic ult job. I think that's part of the learnin g, part of something good that comes out of these games. As I said, I'm not knocking the games at all, but we're looking at the si tuatio n of not taking anything away from these people at all. I think they'll have the same thing and maybe have something added a bit .

The cost, I can't make a comp ari son at this ti me; it depends - you know you could change that all you want, if you go to Ne epawa and you help them build a track and then help them build a swimming pool and so on, it' s going to cost more money. There's no doubt, it depends how ric h the program is. So, you can't make that kin d of comp ari son. I think there is much to say for both systems and I said very candid ly that I want to look at it wit h an open mind and if I have any bias now it would be for a fully Manito ba games with the senior citi zens, the han dicap people and everybody involved. MR.

GR AHAM: We ll, Mr. Chairm an, I jus t want to point out to the Minister that in rural Manito ba not al l the communities are the same si ze. Some communi ties would have great diff icu lty in handling any more than 50 participants; another community mig ht be able to handle 100; another one mig ht be able to handle 200. So, wit h the fl exibili ty of decentrali zatio n it allo wed the small communities to put in a bid for a sport in which they were able to roughly judge how many participants would be involv ed so that they could adeq uately handle them.

I thought it was a terrific idea and the communities seemed to thin k so too because there seemed to be much greater in terest created throughout, especi ally, the smal ler areas of the province so that the whole province seemed to be invol ved in the program. I want to commend the Min iste r for everything that was done in the past Winter Games, because I thought it was an exc ellent pro gram that the communities seem to app reciate and enjoy. MR. DESJA RDINS: The member is talking about regi onal. There has been regio nal and then dist rict games.

I'll give the member an example , Boissevain is n't any big ger than Vird en, is it ? They had eig ht of the nine sports there and they did very wel l. I was there for the openin g; there were a lot of people there. The la dies, the vol unteer la dies auxiliary, served a terrific meal. Everybody was very, very ple ased . So, I think that could be done. Yo u're not taking anything away; a smaller pla ce would have the regi on, and then the dist rict, and then the big ci ty. You can't say that it's a truly Manitoba Games if more than half the popula tio n doesn't partici pate.

I owe it to that half of the popula tio n to look at. to see the possibili ty of them participat ing. But it wi ll not be at the le vel of the people that get all these advantages. It would be at a diffe rent le vel. If you have senior citi zens, it would be at that le vel; if you have hockey pla yers, ol d-time hockey over the age of 35, that's it; if you have nobody that partici pated in the Manitoba games or anything hig her, wil l be able to participate. So I thin k that we could resolve that and I don't thin k we take anything away.

It 's more of a gamble, but the people of Manito ba al ways come through and I think that they would, and I think you'd 10 61 be surprised in what these small centres could do. MRS. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairm an, to the Mini ster, back to ringette for a minute; who decides who can enter the Canada Wi nter Games? You were mention ing you were going to give support. MR. DESJA RDINS: There's an associatio n wit h the Federal Government and there's people representing the provinces in these areas and the ringettes were very cl ose to being accepted .

I thin k it was at the la st minute it was turned down, and we we're doing a bit of lobb yi ng, and we certainly, in Manitoba, wil l be com mitted to support very strongly the ringettes for the next games . MRS. HAMMOND: I thank you for that because I know that in St. James-Assiniboia we have strong ringette groups in every community club and we have young women partici pating in a le ague also, and I know that they are most anxious to partici pate in the Wi nter Games. MR. DESJA RDINS: In all fairn ess though, I should point out that ringette is not as popular all across Canada as it is here.

For instance, one or two of the provinces, there are very few now, I think that we're probably one of the provinces that is doing better and that has to be a factor because the Canada Game s is jus t that, Canada Games, not just the provinces. But I think that they seem to be pi cking up very, very fast and we wil l push it because we are very proud of our ringettes here in Manito ba. MR. CHAIRMAN: We'r e on 2.(f ){1) Salar ies. The Member for La Verendrye. MR.

BAN MAN: I'm just going to raise one more point here and I know it's sort of a thorny one, and I don't know if the Minister wil l want to di scuss it at any great leng th, but one of the things that has really received a lot of attentio n again thi s year and I guess it does every hockey season is vio lence in hockey. We've managed among the younger peewees and bantams, we've managed to impl ement rule s which have made that game a lo t safer for those youngsters. We've made them wear helme ts; we've made them wear face guards; we've done away in many of the leag ues wit h body checkin g, physical contact.

As a result there are a lo t le ss problems there. We had an inc id ent again , I guess, wit h the Jets, and one of their pla yers the other nig ht got cut up pretty badly. The Minister has been pla yi ng footba ll and we all kno w the rule s in footb all, if you fig ht, you're out. It 's as sim ple as that, and it's a very, very physi cal sport also. But, I guess the questio n one has to ask now is, at what point in ti me is it incum bent upon people to start asking the NHL, the Board of Governors, to start hav ing a look at this?

I don't think the answer is to take measures and start charging these pla yers when these things happen, and yet I know the frustratio ns that are involved when you see thi s type of thing happening rig ht in front of you when ther e doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason for doing it. I'm just wondering if the time hasn't arrived where some gen tle prodding from the sports Ministers across Canada

Thur sday, 1 April, 1982 in tal king wit h the NHL officia ls, wit h the Board of Governors, whether or not it is n't time that somebody has a talk to these people. It 's not the toughies or the goons that are attracting people, I don't think any more, as they used to. The Gretskys of thi s world, the Hawerchuks, these are the people that most fans are going out to see now. It's the art of the game and going from what my young son watches and that, that's the type of thing they're lo oking for.

Maybe it's a problem that's been wit h us so many years that we ju st tal k about it every year when a few of these inci dents happen, but we're going through some of that problem here in Manito ba rig ht now, and you sure hate to see us stepping in wit h a heavy hand when it should be the Board of Gover nors who really starts clamp ing down on people who, ju st for wanton vio lenc e, are involved in brawls on the ice.

I guess I speak as a fan as wel l as a parent; you'd sure like to see the calibr e of hockey as I menti oned, Hawerchuk and Gretsky and these people are bring ing to the games, rather than the goon squa d hooliga nisms that we see sometimes. I wonder if the Minister has given any thought to this, or what his thoughts are on it? MR. DESJA RDINS: It 's unfortunate that after the afternoon and evening where we seem to ag ree on most everything that I have to disag ree wit h the member because I think he's overreactin g.

I think he's exag gerating and I think if he thinks for a minute of all of the hundreds and hundreds of games that the kids are pl ayin g, and they're doing a damn good job, that you hear a few and all of a sudden it becomes a big thing. It's far from perfect; it never wil l be wit h that kind of sport. But there has been big im provement. I think the cages are doing an awful lo t of good.

I would hope that, this is where we would lo ok at, I don't know if we should inter fere in that, but I would like to see the kids every year keep the cage and eventually they would end up feeling naked wi thout tha t cage, and eventually they would carry on in the NHL and that would stop the fig hts, because who in his rig ht mind is going to punch a cage. So, I think thi s is one of the things. I remember when Toe Blake wanted to get rid of Jacques Pl ante because it was sissy to wear a face guard and who in his rig ht mind now would go in the net?

He has to be a li ttle punchy, I thin k, to go in the net, but anyway, who in his rig ht mind would pla y goal wi thout a face mask? So, I thin k that has come a long way. But I thin k that the problem -(I nterje ctio n)- the member says, wel l, it's up to the le ague. The leag ue doesn't give a damn about the sports Mi niste r, I can tel l you that. There are a lo t of American teams; they don't care about the CAHA, the CAHA has a very much of a voice at thi s time.

I disag ree, I think that when the goon stuff started to go down, was after all the threats and every thing that was done, was when the Attorney-General of Ontario a few years back, decid ed that he would la y a charge and since then it went down. It wasn't the Attorney-General that went out to seek that, it was the police that recommended it and I thin k he was rig ht. It's unfortunate that you'd have to say that about one of your own pla yers, the Jets, but I thin k that you have to show the ex ample someti me and I agree wit h what the Attorney-General did .

I thin k he made it qui te clear he wasn't going to try to la y a charge, but you don't leave a bench and you don't have a coach th at's going to send you - I'm not sugge sting the Wi nnipeg coach did that, but it happened la ter on for one of the Color ado or L.A. where the coach sent somebody to pick a fig ht. I think it's too bad. I think that the NHL should clean up their act. No t only are you kic ked out for the game in footbal l, but foot ball that's not the impor tant thing; it's tel evi si on.

The kids that want to make a career out of pro fessi onal hockey, they watch these people and the y thin k that's smart and they try to imi tate them. Now, in footbal l if there was a fig ht, the camera would be on the crowd and they'd tal k about the weather or some thing else, but here they fig ht and you look at the fig ht and you get all anxi ous. The problem, I thin k we must recognize and the government can't do much about that, I thin k the Hoc key Assoc iatio n has done a good job. There's hundreds of games every nig ht now.

There's so many levels and age of kids pl aying and you hear about a few of them and what do you hear mostly, the fans. I think the real problems are wit h the parents and the government can't dictate to them. If need be, we'd have to work wit h the Hockey Assoc iatio n and cle ar the arena if need be. Some of these kids are on pins and needle s wit h their fathers and mothers yel ling at them; the langua ge is awful.

The insu lts, if you cheer for a team you can't have your nei ghbour cheer for another team, you insult them and I think that's where the problem is, when people lo se their cool com pletely and start hitting a 14 -year-old referee, that's another thi ng. There's so many games that you have to dip down in the 14 and 15 -year-old to work wit h the kids 10 years old and that's good to bring in. Those kids are pretty good if they were only le ft alone by the parents. MR. NOR DMAN: Any of them watch the questio n period , they would swear they were in a hockey game. MR.

DESJA RDINS: Yes, the way some of the members of the Op posit ion act, it's very bad. It reminds me of that. MR. NOR DMAN: He says, which is the Op positio n? MR. CHAIR MAN: We're on 2. (f) (

i) Salar ies - the Member for La Verendrye. MR. BAN MAN: I think that the Minister had indi cated some of the problems and I appreciate some of the comments he made. As I menti oned in my earlier remarks, we have done a lot I think in min or hockey to try and straig hten that out. As I menti oned, I think that area doesn't pose as lar ge a problem as it used to, because there are defini tely less inj uries . 10 62 The thing that really, of course, hei ghtens thi s and brings this to everybody's attentio n are the few bad things that happen and we've had one in Manitoba here.

It 's unfortunate - and this is what I'm tryi ng to say - it's unfortunate that the League it self cannot poli ce those problems. I jus t say that knowing full wel l that the Minister doesn't have ju risdi ctio n in that par ti cular area, but it 's a matter of concern and I raise it here today for what it's worth and hopefully we'll be

Thur sday, 1 April, 1982 able to see some of the Leag ue people smarten up in the next few years and recog nize that there's talent out there if you le t it go, it' ll perform very well and maybe draw lar ger crowds than the straig ht hooli ga nism that we see very often. MR. CHAIR MAN: We're on 2. (f) (

i) Salar ies - the Member for Niakwa. MR. KO VNATS: I don't im agine that we will be la sting too much lo nger, but ju st to carry on ju st a litt le bit on what the former Minister of Fi tness, Recreation and Sports mentio ned concerning each sport poli cing themselves. I thin k thi s is the greatest thing and I think that you regula te each sport, not by having that many rule s but by havi ng enough rule s to regul ate the sport.

I guess my atti tude when I was refereei ng was to see that both teams pla yed by the same rule s and if you're going to allo w one person to sneak in behind and smash a pl ayer in the face, then you have to allo w the other, but you're not goin g to do it so you stop it rig ht from the start. If you want scratchi ng and kic king and bit ing, put it into the rules, but if it 's not there then you've got to regula te it to the point where they're not goin g to al low any of that stuff. MR. DESJA RDINS: That is only allo wed in oil wrestlin g. MR.

KOV NATS: Yes, and the Minister of Fit ness, Recreatio n and Sports when they have meetings across Canada. I've ju st got one thing that came to min d. I had refereed a football game in Toronto many years ago and the two quarterbacks were a fell ow by the name of Jonas and a fell ow by the name of Wil kin son.

They were the two quarterbacks for the Toronto Argonauts at that time. -(I nterje cti on)- Yes, I was and I remember during the game and then yesterday on the bus, one of the litt le boys on the bus was asking me about when I was doing footbal l and I menti oned Jonas and he lo oked at me and he says, who's Jonas. How quic k they forget. MR. CHAIR MAN: We're on 2.( f)

(1) Salar ie s-pass; 2. (f) (2) -pass; 2. (f)

(3) Grant Assis tance-pass . Resol utio n No. 67, Resolv ed that there be granted to Her Maje sty a sum not exceeding $1 ,8 89,9 00 for Fi tness, Recreatio n and Sp ort for the fi scal year end ing the 31s t day of March, 19 83. We go back to Minister's Salar y - the Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Mr. Chai rman, I ju st want to say in the fi nal ana lys is that when I was Mini ster I did appre ciat e, as the Mi nister does, the many volu nteers that partici pate in the fi eld of amateur sport.

Wi thout the vol unteers in this fi eld, it would be virtually im possib le to do one -hundredth of what we do and there are many people that give of themselv es and their time, as I mentio ned earl ier, very unself i shly. I also want to thank the staff. The Minister com mented on the staff and the dedi catio n of the staff. He mentioned that they were lo yal to me; I must say that they were loyal to me. The names that he mentio ned it was inter esting to note, I think all of them have been wit h the department long before I got there. Some of them worked for the Minister when he was there. MR.

DESJA RDINS: They did n't all wear three-piece sui ts in those days. MR. BANMAN! I thin k I inherited all of them from the previo us admi nist ratio n when I took over. I thin k they served them wel l at that tim e, they served me wel l and I know the calibr e of people that are inv olv ed there. and I know they wil l serve this Minister well. Their concern is the development of sport, recreation and fi tness in the province and I know they wi ll carry on their duty fai thf ully to this Minister and be a credi t to the people of Manitoba in the fi eld they are working in . MR.

DESJA RDINS: I was going to say, thank you to the members, but I'll cut it short. I know what hap pened to Al Mackling just thi s afternoon, so I'm not going to tell you how wonderful you've been. MR. CHAIRMAN: We have to pass the Minister's Salar y-pass. MR. DESJA RDINS: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resol ution No. 66, Resolv ed that there be granted to Her Majesty a sum not exceedi ng $663, 700 for Fi tness, Recreation and Sports for gen eral admi nist ratio n for the fi scal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 83-pass. MR.

CHAIRMAN: This brings Fi tness, Recreation and Sports to a cl ose and I'm wondering if the com mittee wants to rise for the evening or do we want start another Estimate. Committee rise SUPPLY - NORTHERN AFFAIRS MR. CHAI RMAN, Steve Ashton (Thompson) : Com mittee come to order. The di scussio n is contin uing under 1.(

a) Execut ive Salar ies - the Member for Flin Flon. MR. ST ORIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairper son. I wel come this chance to conclude my remarks. I have a number of other things that I'd like to put on the record despite some people's objec tio ns. I beli eve I was just getting into the more partic ular problem that we're having -A m I getting heckled? - the particul ar problems of the Flin Flon area and I believe I had begun by saying there were concerns on three di fferent fronts.

The first one, of course, is the quali ty of the air in and around the Flin Flon area because of the sulphur dioxide problem and the emissio ns comin g from the stac k. To the unini tiated and those not familiar wit h Flin Flon, I thin k it's fairly easy to assume that because of the heig ht of the stack and the popul ar conception that because of the heig ht of the stack, the air qual ity has been dramati cally impr oved and the assumptio n as well that beca use of the heig ht of the stack that there are no problems with li vi ng in a community that has a major source of sulphur diox ide as its base.

That sim ply is n't true. 10 63

Thursday, 1 April, 19 82 The building of the stack in 19 75 did alleviate some of the problem. However, on nume rous days over the last seven years that I've lived in Flin Flon, the problem of breathing in sulphur dioxid e fumes. I have found, occurs quite regularly. Whenever there's a temper a ture inversion, the air surrounding the stack bring s the smoke down. the sulphur dioxide fumes down, and creates a problem in whatever direction the wind happens to be taking the fumes.

I can assure you that it's no laughing matter particular ly for those people who fir st come to Flin Flon before your lungs adjust to the fact that every once in a while you'r e going to take deep breath of sulphur dioxide. It's a fright ening experience for novices to Flin Flon air and to young childr en and so forth, and it's a problem that we encounter all the time.

I'm told that pre-1 975, before the days of the stack, that it was quite common for people to be walking downtown and actually have to move indoors into a store to get a breath of fresh air, li terally because the air was so befouled that you couldn't make it from store to store without that manoeuvre. However, it has impr oved, but that's not to say that it doesn't get so bad on certain days that you have to remove yourself to get a breath of fresh air. And it is a problem.

I guess it's a problem that will continue to be a problem until there is an ulti mate solution to the problem of a mil lion tons a day of sulfur dioxide coming out the stack and I recogn ize that's the cost. Ther e's no simple solution to that problem and any solution is going to be a costly one. However, the history of sulfur dioxide pollution in Flin Flon goes back some 50 years. I gather as long as the sme lter has been there, and it contin ues to this day.

Again, there is a history of Cle an Environment Commi ssion orders and ordina nces that have tried to limit the amount of sulfur dioxide that goes int o the atmosph ere, and tried to limi t what they call fugitiv e emissions from other parts of the plant, but by and large the plant contin ues to operate with the excep tion of the stack. It conti nues to operate, emitting as much poll utant as it ever did.

There have been some attempts by the company of late to co rrect some of the problems that cause some of the gr ound level pollution to occur, and I suppose those are having some imp act on the qualit y of air, but the y are not of major im port as of yet. The quali ty of air in the down town area on certain days is still, to my way of think ing, hazardous to a person's health.

I guess another problem in the same vein is that while the Envir onmental Mana gement Division does monitor the air qualit y in Flin Flon, it does so on the basis of two different levels; one is cal led the maxi mum allo wable level of sulfur dioxide in the air, and the other one is called the max imum desirable level. Although the moni toring stations tell us that those levels, parti cularly the maximum allo wable level, is not exceeded very often, it is exceeded on occasion, and the maximum desirable level is exceeded more freq uently.

My concern is, and I suppose the concern of many of the people that li ve in the communi ty is, what exactly does the maxi mum al lowable level or the maxi mum desirable level mean? Is it attached to any signif icant scientific evidence that would tell us that this level or that level is dang erous to human health? My belie f is - and I have never seen any evidence to the contr ary - that in fact those levels are arbitrarily set. Ther e is no specific proof that would tell us that this or that level is actually acceptable, so I think the title, Maximum Acceptable Level, is mis leading.

I don't know that there is an acceptable level. However, that's been established and we go by that. The other problem that occurs in Flin Flon is one of jurisdiction. We have two standards actually in Flin Flon. We have a maximum allowable and a maximum desirable level that are set by Man itoba standards and our next door neigh bour, Saskatchew an, has another set of maximum allowable and maximum desirable levels and the irony is that those two levels are differ ent. In fact, the Saskatchewan level is exactly half of what the Man itoba levels are.

Tha t leaves me to con clude that the sett ing of those levels is entir ely arbi trary and in fact, there is not any acceptable level of air pollution, of sulphur dioxide pollution, and that's a concern. 1064 Of course we want our air mon itored and of course we want it not to exceed the maxi mum desirable level, but the question goes beyond that. Is the maxi mum desirable level really a meaningful fig ure? I'm not convinc ed that it is. So on the one hand, we have an air problem.

We are breathing air that is in some sense poll uted, perhaps not all the tim e but certainly occa sionally by the sulphur dioxide emi ssions of the smelter operations in Flin Flon.

The second problem, of course, is with the qualit y of water and that occurs because of the emissions of sulphur dioxide and other heavy metal particles from the operations in Flin Flon and there's a 19 77 study that was designed to examine the atmospheric fallout in the vicin ity of the smelter in Flin Flon- as I said it's a 19 77 study - and it outli nes the amount of accumu lated pollution if you will, that was deposited on lak e surfaces near Flin Flon in the year 19 77 in a period of 85 days. Now. just for the record, ! would lik e to read in some of the accumu lations that occurred in that 85-day period.

In Cl iff Lake, which is a lake where we get our drinking water, there were 70 kilo gr ams or iron, 2.6 kilo gr ams of mag nesi um, 39 ki lograms of lead, 5 ki lo grams of arse nic, 3.3 kilo gr ams of cadmium. 103 ki lo grams of copper, 16 63 kilo gr ams of zinc, 326 kilo grams of S04 -( Interjection)- Well actually it ends up tasking quite good with rye; that's the irony of it. The point is that this is the accumu lations of base metals and other chem icals in an 85-day period. That leaves one to worry about the long-r ange qualit y of water in Flin Flon. I don't want to be an alarm ist.

I have checked with the Water Standar ds Di vision of the Envir onmental Branch and they assure me that the water qual ity in Flin Flon is top notch, and that's prob ably why it goes with rye so well. But you st ill have to worry in the long run about accum ulations of that level in our water system. And there are a lis t of another dozen and mor e lakes in the area with accumulations that are equally astounding.

Although our water quality is acceptable, I am told, and our Ph levels are high, and we're told not to worry, I don't see how those kind of accumula tions can not cause one to worry about the long-range potential for danger and the long-range potential for damage to our presently top qualit y water system. So of course that's a concern.

Thur sday, 1 April, 1982 There is another concern that no one, to my knowl edge, has examined very clo sely and I have spoken again to Dr. Boehn, in the Envir onmental Manage ment Di visio n, about thi s and there's another pheno menon that is cal led acid shock. Wha t happens is that over the winter a certain amount of sulphur dioxide accumula tes in the snowfall and when runoff occurs, of course you have a concentr atio n of heavy metals and sulphur dioxide, and heavy metal parti cals in the runoff and what kind of effect does that have?

And to my knowledge, as I said , that there has been no sys tematic sampling done at spring runoff to see if there is that kind of heavy concentr atio n of heavy metals and sulphur dioxide and whether the PH balance in the water changes dramatica lly in spring runoff. So that's something that I' m also concerned about and I know one of my consti tuents has phoned me and asked me about that very question, about whether there is a bui ldup. There are no ans wers for that at present.

I guess the ot her problem is ground pol lut ion and the bui ldup of heavy metal partic ula tes on the ground - I don't know why these studies were all done in 19 77 - pardon me, thi s is a May, 19 80 st udy that was conducted by the Envir onmental Management Divi sio n in which it talked about some of the effects on the local habitat and the local wi ld life and the

summary sugg ested that at le ast in one species that was tested that there are accu mula tio ns of several metals in the ti ssues of small animals in the vici nity. So there is a bui ldup in the area of heavy metals and through all kinds of processes drinking water and eating food I presume those are inge sted and beco me part of the life cycle of those animals. If it's shortening the li fe cyc le of those animals then we have to assume that it's perhaps shortening our life cycle as wel l.

The whole iss ue of how to go about solving this problem is one that I think governments of all levels and indus try is going to have to face. There are no sim ple solut io ns, unfortunately. There are no solu tio ns that do not cost dol lars unfortunately but never thele ss those are problems that we're going to have to face and we're going to have to face squarely.

I don't think it is prudent of us to contin ue to assume that those problems are going to go away by and of themselv es, I don't think that's factually correct and I think it 's undul y optimi stic to assume that because we're going to have to deal wit h them. I don't think we can contin ue to put them off. The people in my area I suppose have been party to putti ng them off for the la st 50 years. The concern is that if we put them off for another 50 years that it would be to our detriment and I think everybody now beli eves that's the case.

I think as well it has to be said that - and I said thi s in the begin ning - that gi ven the present economic situ atio ns that mining companies fi nd themselves, gi ven the present sit uatio ns that governments fi nd themselv es vis-a-vis their fi nancial resources, that it's not reali stic to say let's go and solve thi s problem overnig ht. Cle arly that is n't going to happen. It 's going to be a lon g-term process.

What we have to do now is we have to decide that we have the desire to move forward on these iss ues; we have to com mit ourselves to assist ing in whatever way we can and I'm hoping that thi s department, the Envir onmental Branch, wil l do that. I'm hopin g that the companies involved, and in this case HBMS and ln co wil l also be wil ling to co-operate in the sense that they develop, not lon g-term plans - if we're tal king about lon g-term plans we may be tal king about 10 years -in whic h they serio usly strive to come to grips wit h this problem.

In doing that, of course they are going to have to develop some kind of procedure for some economic plan ning to al low them to do that and I thin k that some gentle persuasion on the part of both levels of gov ernment is needed here, because I think the inc lina tio n to do that wil l be furthered if the government decides - and the people in the community I'm sure wil l be behin d the government - if they decid e to use some gentle persuasio n and to use some di scussion and di alog ue to make sure that process begins.

In concluding, - I notice the measure of relief in the Minister's face - I want to say that there are some good things happening and I brought thi s topic up sim ply to refresh the member's understanding of the problem and refresh the Minister's awareness of the problem.

I want to say that there are a number of good things happening which would create a certain amount of enthusia sm in any envir onmentalist - and I hope all of us are envir onmental ists - and No. 1, is the Mini ster has in dicated that there is going to be some inc rease in the spending of the Envir onmental Branch and a sig nifi cant incr ease, and I think that's a good sig n. I think that shows concern and I'm sure it wi ll be exp ressed as concern as we contin ue to study and monitor and work toward solving some of these problems.

No. 2, the Mi nister has also indi cated that there is going to be some further monito ring of the ambie nt air quali ty in Northern Manito ba. I thin k that should brin g some measure of satisfactio n, some measure of relief to the people in Flin Flon, to know that the government is active ly mo nito ring the sit uation and im proving the facili ties for monitoring sulphur diox ide emissio ns and the scope of the problem that they are creating.

No. 3, I thin k that sort of an iss ue that's tange ntia l to the whole problem, but one which is impor tant to the solving of the jurisd ictio nal problem which has plagued the Flin Flon area for the last 25 years approx ima tely and that is the fact that the Flin Flon mining area is governed in part at least, by The Hu dson Bay Mining and Sme lting Act which is a Federal Act and it has in some ways in hibited the control of envir onmen tal problems and indeed created a lo t of other ancil lar y problems and I beli eve we're clo se to solv ing that problem.

I beli eve the Mi niste r has indi cated that jurisd ictio nal problem is being worked on between the government in Saskatchewan and our govern ment and that's a hopeful sig n. 10 65 No. 4, as I've mentio ned previo usly, the present Minister has often and loudly stated his concern on envir onmental iss ues and I think that bodes well for the people of the province and the people in thi s area. I think those are the points of good news and I would thank the Mini ster for those in dic atio ns and wi ll turn the floor over to someone else at this point. HON.

JA Y COWAN (Chur chill): I am tempted to give one of my speeches, however, I wil l content myself thi s evening wit h thanking the Member for Flin Flon

Thur sday, 1 April, 1982 for his ti mely comments. It is a matter that we have di scus sed not only in thi s Chamber, but he and I have di scussed it on numerous other occasio ns. I value his input especi ally now that he has a great deal of ti me to make himself familiar wit h the details and the specifics of the sit uatio n there from both a personal and a technical perspecti ve.

For that reason I app reciate him having taken the time to put on the record some impor tant statements and to provide a gentle prod by way of his remarks and which he does as well when the occasion arises during other disc us sio ns to make certain that I don't forget some of the things which I had said .

I know there is support when it comes ti me to take some necessary steps to ensure that we are proceed ing in the rig ht direction in respect to dealing with a very serio us concern, one which we have addressed at great leng th in the Chambers over the past number of days, but one which is al ways tim ely and one which we should always pay attention to. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Fort Garry. MR. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (For t Ga rry): Thank you, Mr. Chai rman.

The Honourable Member for Flin Flon has put us all in danger of concl uding the examin atio n of the Estim ates of the Ministe r of Northern Affairs on a very hig h note, on a very hig h road and I hesitate to permit the exe rcise to be conclu ded on that lev el. There are two or three things that I thin k we would like to put on the record clearly before we exp ress ju dg ment on the Minister's Sal ary for a fi nal time rel ative to fi scal 19 82-83.

First of all, I'd like to ask the Mini ster though if he has given any conside ration to questio ns I raised wit h him earlier during conside ration of the Envir onmental Control functio ns of his department and the Envir onmental Management Branch.

At that ti me I said - and I think in a fair ly restrained way -t hat in my exper ience on the Treasury Benc hes there had been great di ffic ul ty wit h the Envir onmental Management Divi sio n in terms of ident if ying obj ec tives in the envir onmental and publ ic health fi elds and then su bseq uent to that, in terms of movi ng in any cohesive and co-operative way to achi evement of those objec ti ves. I encountered personally some extreme diffic ul ties in terms of li ais on between health and envir onment.

I bel ieve that has been a stand ard condit ion for governments in Manito ba ever since envir onment was taken out of the Department of Health and I would venture to predict that unless the Mini ster makes some fairly inn ovative and necessary changes, it will contin ue to be the sit uati on, Mr. Chairm an.

Three or four exa mples tha t come to mind are the diffic ul ties that we had in gettin g together with respect to envir onmental responsibili ties in the inner city of Win nipeg as against the former suburbs of Win nipeg; the diffic ult ies that we had in add ressing the environ mental and poll utio n problems rel ative to the Red River, parti cula rly that portio n of the Red that flo ws through the City of Wi nnipeg ; the extreme diffic ul ties that we had in getting ready and valid inform atio n wit h respect to chemical pestic ides and particularly wit h respect to the pesticide Baygon at the time of the health emergency in encephali tis la st summer and I 10 66 could cite other exam ple s, Mr.

Chairm an. None of these di ffic ult ies fl owed from obsti nacy of personnel or from shortcomings of personnel. I want to make that fact cle ar. But they did stem and I would venture to suggest wil l contin ue to stem from the in visib le but im penetrable iron curtain which seems to exist between the Environ mental Management Branch and the public health sid e of the He alth Department and I thin k it is very very seri ous. There was a tim e, of course, when Envir onmental Management was part of the Health Department.

Then in the early years of the Schreyer admini stratio n because the Minister of Energy and Mine s of the day - Mr. Greene, the former Member for lnk ster - was particularly inte rested in envir onment, envir onment moved over to that department under that Minister. Subseq uent to that, we had a sit uatio n when the Lyon government was in office where, because of an over structure of the Health Department heavily burdened with Com munity Services and Correctio ns for a good part of that ti me, it was not practi cal to attempt to bring envir onment back into the Health Department.

But notwi thstanding the burden borne by the Health Department at the time there was consid erable dis cussio n and consider ation devoted by those of us in the Department of Health to that very objec tive, to that very goal . We int ended, once we succe ssfu ll y recon stit uted Health and Community Services and partic u larly the Regi onal Fie ld Deli very System in a way that has now been acco mpli shed, to start working very inte nsive ly on reinteg ration of envir onment and health. Now we have even a di fferent sit uatio n.

No t only is Envir onment no longer in Heal th, it no longer is even in ei ther the Energy and Mines Department or the Consumer and Corporate Affairs Department where it rested for awhile. No w because the Mini ster of Nor th ern Affairs is parti cularly inter ested in the Environ ment or certainly demonstrated to be so inter ested at the time that he was in Oppositio n, and I would say demonstrated it very capably, we've got Envir onment over in No rthern Affairs.

I presume that if the First Mini ste r should decid e some day to carry out a Cabinet shuffle and make the Minister of Northern Affairs the Mini ster of Educatio n then Envir onment would move over into the Department of Educatio n; if the current Mi niste r of Northern Affairs became the Attorney -General, Envir onment would move over into the Department of the Attorney-General. This, Mr. Chairm an, is hig hly illog ic al, imp racti cal and nonsen si cal, to say the le ast. For the past several years now Envir onment has travelled around the spectrum of government depart ments like a circ uit judge on tour.

Wher e it should be is in Health so that the Publ ic Health officia ls of the Health Department and the Envir onmental Manage ment officia l can come to grips together, cohesively and co-operatively, wit h things that need to be done in the publ ic health-envir onmental sector and those two disc iplines are barely insepar able in 19 82, Mr. Chairman. There is very litt le differe nce between the obj ectives and the chall enges and the needs of Publ ic Health and the objec tives and the chal lenges and the needs of the Envir onment.

So, I raised that question with the Mi nister earlier in examin atio n of his Estima tes. I did n't like to go into it in too much detail at that time because he had his

Thur sday, 1 April, 1982 officia ls sitti ng in front of him and I did n't want my remarks to be construed as any criticis m of his Envir onmental Management officia ls, but now in the free arena of debate between the Minis ter and ourselves, unencumbered by any such conside ratio ns.

I raise it again and say that, up to this point in time, if the Minister's inter ested in my own personal evalua tio n of thi s sit uatio n, I would say that during the ti me that we were in government the rel ati onships, in terms of tangi ble achievement and in terms of ti mely service to the publ ic of Manito ba, the rel atio nships between En vir onment and Public Health verged on the disas trous, they were a virtual disaster and as far as I can see they're still a disaster today. I haven't seen any evid ence that the Minister is working on that diffic ul ty and on that challenge.

I know that no Mini ster likes to see any part of his or her responsibili ties hived off to another department. There's a natural tendency to protect one's depart mental and territorial responsibili ti es, that's human nature.

But I want to say to my frie nd the Minister of Northern Affairs that one of the reasons why Health and Community Services was split was because of the in itiative that I personally took, loy ally and strongly supported by many of my senior officia ls, but because of the in itiative that I personal ly took with the First Minister of the Day in requestin g that the two seg ments be div ided into separate departments because no Mini ster. wit h responsibili ty over those two hugh arms of publ ic servi ce, could properly serve his respective departmental consti tuencies.

He or she could not serve those two vast areas in any kind of meanin gful way, the only way that service could be performed was to divide the two. I pressed for that divisio n, and I want to say to the Minister of Northern Affairs that it's not as pain ful as it may appear on the surface. He may not like to consider gi ving up any part of his departmental empire but it would be in the best inter est of his services to Northern Affairs, and the best inter est of his services to Work pla ce Safety and Health and other aspects of his area of responsibili ty if he did so.

It would certainly be in the best inte rest of Health and the Envir onment if they were combined in a way that enabled them to work together on the mutual targets that they both face. So, I want to ask the Mi nister again, at thi s point, whether he is giv ing conside ratio n to that and, if not, what he is putting in pla ce in the way of structure in his department and what his colle ague, the Minister of Heal th, is puttin g in pl ace in the way of st ructure in his department to ensure that those two di visio ns of the publ ic service work together in stead of against each other? MR.

COWAN: I thank the honourable memb er for his comments, all of which I can inform him are wel l received and wil l pla y a role in our decisio n-making as we attempt to determine how to best approach the loca tio n of the Env ir onmental Management Divi sion wit hin government. I do not want to rule out any one loca tio n over another lo catio n at thi s ti me.

I do want to sugge st, as was suggested earlier and stated earlier in the review of these Estimates, that we are lo oking at the Envir onmental Management Divis io n and the way it corresponds to the Occu patio nal Envir onment and seein g if there can't be some melding there and mesh- ing there which would al low us to have a department of that nature. I thin k that would be a positive move forward altho ugh there may be others that would thin k it would not be such a positive move forward, but I thin k it is certainly something that we should consider and something that we are consid erin g.

It makes a certain amount of sense when you think about how closely those two environments are affected by activities one each in the other. So, I think that is something that we are look in g at. We've made it very clear that we are look ing at that and tend to review that, but that in no way preclu des us from lo okin g at other optio ns as wel l.

The optio n which the member has brought forward is one which I am prepared to review alth ough I can inform him , at this point, I would need to be convinced of the lo gic of that move far more than I have to date, however, I don't rule it out; I don't rule any move out at thi s point. Ne xt year's Estima tes, I thin k, we wil l be able to more fully examine exactly where it is this govern ment beli eves the Envir onmental Management Divi sion should reside. I'm not opposed to a Department of the Env ir onment, quite frankly.

I think that this is sue has become im portant enough to all of us to warrant a department onto its own. I'm not opposed to a Department of the Environ ment which in cl uded in it Safety and Health; I think that those two iss ues are clo sely rela ted and again the publ ic awareness of those is sues and the technical awareness of the need to expand our activities in those two areas would tend to supp ort that sort of a meshin g.

However, I want to lo ok very carefully at that before proceeding and that's why we are talk ing about Envir onmental Man agement Divisio n and Workpl ace Safety and Health under the Department of Northern Affairs this year. 10 67 Ne xt year I may not be discu ssin g it, that remains to be seen, at le ast from this vantage point. Next year it may be on its own. That remains to be seen. Ne xt year may see the Department of Workpl ace Safety and Health back in Labour.

That remains to be seen as wel l, but upon assuming government we did want to highlig ht our concern and also to attempt to bring into better focus activities in these two very im portant areas and I think we have accompl is hed that. So, we are reviewin g it over a period of ti me. We are looking at it very carefull y. I especi ally appreciate the com ments from the member who has some exten sive per sonal involvement and experi ence in respect to the activities of the Envir onmental Management Divisio n and how it rel ates to other departments. I think it 's necessary for me to know that.

And I know that when he says that he does not mean to reflect badly on staff and I can assure him that they do not take it as such. I've asked them to look at the comments which you put on the record the other nig ht and to provide me wit h some inform atio n in respect to their feelings about those comments. I wi ll do the same this evening and I do so because I think it 's im portant that we address those concerns and those iss ues, and we wil l.

The member also asked what we were going to be doing in respect to the Baygon spraying la st year and shortly thereafter in the House, I announced that the Cle an Envir onment Commissio n wi ll be reviewing the upcoming spraying program. That of course wil l be done in the context of previo us spraying programs, not only the one in 19 81 , but the one that was done in

Thur sday, 1 April, 1982 19 77 and '75 as wel l. Als o, they'll review that from the prospective of what new substances are available to us to deal wit h that very serio us problem, to try to avoid the type of health emergencies which con fronted the Minister when he was a Mi niste r and could possib ly confront the Minister who presently occu pies thi s portfoli o or any other Mini ster at any given ti me.

The obj ective , of course, is not to have to deal with that urgent health emergency, but, knowing that that may well happen, I think we have taken the proper course of actio n by saying, le t the Cle an Envir onment Commissio n, which is the appropriate body to look at this, review the whole sprayin g programs now, when we aren't faced wit h an urgency, when we've got time to sit back and to examine exactly what effects are goin g to acc ompanying that spraying program in a less emotio nal and a less tense envir onment. So, we have done that.

I thank the member opposite for his encourage ments in that regard, because he was encouraging and he can take some satisfactio n in the fact that the announcement fol lo wed so clo sely his own com ments, although I can assure him that the procedures for getting that put in pla ce preceded his comments by some ti me. But the fact is that he brought home the urgency of the sit uatio n and we knew that we had to act and had put in pla ce alr eady the mechanisms whic h were necessary to ensure that we could accompl is h that goal and objective once stated. So, that's been done.

The area pol l ution of the Red River and the down stream communities in one that is mind-boggl ing, to say the le ast, and one which has profound im pacts and must be dealt wi th. I hope after my Estimates to be able to sit down wit h the Mayor of Sel kirk, the Mayor of Win nipeg, the Mi nister responsib le for Urban Affairs and others to di scuss where we go in respect to that problem because we have to go somewhere and we have to make certain that we're working toget her as much as possib le as we move along.

So, I have given my com mi tment to the Mayor of Sel kirk that once I've been able to catch up on the backlo g which is created as a Mini ster moves through his or her Estimates that I wi ll sit down wit h him and the Mayor of Wi nnipeg and have that ini tia l meeting whi ch, I think, wil l provide us wit h the foundatio n for working together towards the sol uti on. I don't know what the sol ution is rig ht at the moment.

I don't know that they know what it is rig ht at the moment but we certainly want to sit down and tal k about the problem because we know what some of the problems are and tal k about the dif ferent mechanis ms and resources which are avail able to the communities that are invol ved and to the provincial government and if we have to involv e other le vels of government, then le t us do that but at least begin to work towards a solut io n.

So, ne xt year, we may not be able to say that we've solved the problem but we may be able to say we have moved this far and we have put in place these things, these mechani sms, these procedures, these phil oso phies and practices which accompl is h some goals and obj ectives which we agree are worthy of our effort. I think those are the qu estio ns which the member addressed to me. I hope the answers are not too vague in all instances.

I think that the answer respecting the Cl ean Envir onment Commission is something we can grasp and hold onto and say, that's going to provide us wit h a better system in pla ce so that if we are caught in the same sort of sit uation which he found himself caught in and havin g to take quick actio n, we at le ast have a bit better inform atio n behind us in order to make informed decisio ns. It's no refl ection on what he did because he did what he had to do at the ti me he had to do it. But we have le arned from that and we should contin ually learn .

No doubt we wil l be con fronted wit h insta nces where we have to act very quic kly and we'll make the same sort of val ue judg ments, wrongl y or rig htly, but we'll make them in good fai th. That's impor tant, but it's also im portant where one can begin to determine previo us to having made that decisio n some of the data which you need avail able to you, then you know that you can make a better informed decisio n. The others are things that we're goin g to talk about over a long period of time, but I hope each time we talk about them that we have moved a litt le bit cl oser to the solut i on.

Next year, I thin k, we wil l more appropria tely talk about where the Envir onmental Management Di vis ion is and how it got there and why it's there. In the meanwhile, I am examining the comments which you have made; I have directed my staff to examine the comments that you have made and brought it to the ir attention and hopefully they wil l try to resolve any dif ferences which can be resol ved at the present time as a result of you havin g brought forward those concerns. MR. SHERMAN: I would thank the Minis ter for that inf ormati on, Mr.

Chairm an, and assure him that we shall certainly be watc hing wit h inter est the objec tives that he pursues and the progress that he hopes to make over the course of next year in resolving some of those diffic ult ies and in achieving a more effic ie nt com bin atio n of services and ini tiatives as between the Envir onmental Management Divisio n and other di vi sio ns in departments of government, in parti cular, the Public Health Divisio n of the Depa

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-25b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 25b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	226ab3a0a284fd30271977f11c71b4d66457c690

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).