Manitoba Hansard — 3 June 1993 (Sitting 76, 35th Legislature, 4th Session)

35-4-76

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Fourth Session - Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 42 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLII No . 76 • 10 a.m., THU RSDAY, JUNE 3, 1993 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and PoiHical Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, louise DERKACH, leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDW ARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon . ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Ho n. FINDL AY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Haro ld, Hon. GRAY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McA LPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOW CHUK, Rosann Vacant Vacant CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Welli ngton River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin- Russell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virden Steinbach Riel St. James lak eside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emerson Dauphin lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Ain Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St.

Johns Swan River Rossmere Rupertsland PARTY. liberal NDP NDP liber al NDP liberal NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP liberal PC liberal PC NDP liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

3757 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, June 3, 1993 The House met at 10 a.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRE SENTING PETITIONS Ms. Becky Barrett (Wellington): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Beverly DeSpiegelaere, Lawrence Van Den Bossc he, Eileen Adam and others requesting the Minister of Hea lth (Mr. Orchard) consider resto ring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-9 4 budget. * * * Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Dow Fraser, Steve Landon, Carla Bruyere and others requesting the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) to consider making as a major pri ority the establishm ent of a solvent abuse treatment facility in northern Manitoba. *** Ms. Rosann Wowc huk (Swan River): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Marina Pittet, Richelle Lemieux, Nadine Bibault and others requesting the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 budget. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honour able member (Ms. Wasylycia-Le is).

It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS there is a very serious solvent abuse problem in northern Manitoba; and WHERE AS accord ing to the RCMP over 1 00 crimes in Thompson alone in 19 92 were linked to solvent abuse; and WHERE AS there are no facilities to deal with solvent abuse victims in northern Manitoba; and WHERE AS for over three years, the provincial government failed to proclaim the private member's anti-sniff bill passed by the Legislature and is now proposing to criminalize minors buying solvents even though there are no treatment facilities in northern Manitoba; and WHERE AS for nine years, the 25 Chiefs who comprise the Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak, supported by medical officials, police and the area Member of Parliament, have proposed a pilot treatment project known as the Native Youth Medicine Lodge; and WH EREAS suc cessive federal Ministers of Health have failed to respond to this issue with a commitment; and WHERE AS the Manitoba provincial government has a responsibility to ensure that there is adequate treatment for solvent abuse.

WHEREF ORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legisla tive Assembly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier to consider making as a major priority, the establishment of a solvent abuse treatment facility in northern Manitoba. *** Mr. Speaker: The honourable member for- no? Okay. Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees- Order, please. Is there leave to revert to Reading and Receiving Petitions? [agreed] *** Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Storie).

It complies with the privileges and the practi ces of the House and complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS there is a very serious solvent abuse problem in northern Manitoba; and

3758 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 3, 19 93

WHEREAS according to the RCMP over 100 crimes in Thompson alone in 1992 were linked to solvent abuse; and

WHEREAS there are no facilities to deal with solvent abuse victims in northern Manitoba; and

WHEREAS for over three years, the provincial government failed to proclaim the private member's anti-sniff bill passed by the Legislature and is now proposing to criminalize minors buying solvents even though there are no treatment facilities in northern Manitoba; and

WHEREAS for nine years, the 25 Chiefs who comprise the Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak, supported by medical officials, police and the area Member of Parliament, have proposed a pilot treatment project known as the Native Youth Medicine Lodge; and WHE REAS successive federal Minis ters of Health have failed to respond to this issue with a commitment; and

WHEREAS the Manitoba provincial government has a responsibility to ensure that there is adequate treatment for solvent abuse. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Man itoba may be pleased to request the Premier to consider making as a major priority, the establishment of a solvent abuse treatment facility in northern Manitoba. *

(1005) Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Dewar). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS there is a very serious solvent abuse problem in northern Manitoba; and

WHEREAS according to the RCMP over 100 crimes in Thompson alone in 1992 were linked to solvent abuse; and

WHEREAS there are no facilities to deal with solvent abuse victi ms in northern Manitoba; and

WHEREAS for over three years, the provincial government failed to proclaim the private member's anti-sniff bill passed by the Legislature and is now proposing to criminalize minors buying solvents even though there are no treatm ent facilities in northern Manitoba; and

WHEREAS for nine years, the 25 Chiefs who comprise the Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak, supported by medical officials, police and the area Member of Parliament, have proposed a pilot treatment project known as the Native Youth Medicine Lodge; and WHERE AS successive federal Minis ters of Health have failed to respond to this issue with a commitment; and

WHEREAS the Manitoba provincial government has a responsibility to ensure that there is adequate treatm ent for solvent abuse. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Man itoba may be pleased to request the Premier to consider making as a major priority, the establishment of a solvent abuse treatment facility in northern Manitoba. *** Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Ms. Wowchuk). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave).

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS the Canadian Wheat Board has played a vital role in the orderly marketing of Canadian wheat, barley and other grain products since its inception in 1935; and

WHEREAS the federal Minister of Agriculture is considering removing barley from the jurisdiction of the Wheat Board; and WHEREA S this is another step towards dismantling the board; and

WHEREAS, as in the case with the removal of oats from the Wheat Board in 1989, there has been no consultation with the board of directors of the Wheat Board, with the 11- memb er advisory com mit tee to the boar d or the pr oducer s themselves; and

WHEREAS the fede ral minister has said that there will be no plebiscite of farmers before the announcemen t is made. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Man itoba may be pleased to request the Man itoba Mi nister of

June 3, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 3759 Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) to consider conducting a plebiscite of Manitoba farmers on this issue as soon as possible. *** Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Ms. Friesen). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? (agreed] Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and

WHEREAS over 1 ,000 young adults are currently attempting to get off welfare and upgrade their education through the Student Social Allowances Program; and

WHEREAS Winnipeg already has the highest number of people on welfare in decades; and WH EREAS the provincial government has already changed social assistance rules resulting in increased welfare costs for the City of Winnipeg; and

WHEREAS the provincial governmen t is now pro pos ing to elimin ate the Studen t Social Allowances Program; and WH EREAS eliminating the Student Social Allowances Program will result in more than a thousand young people being forced onto city welfare with no means of getting further full-time education, resulting in more long-term costs for city taxpayers. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Man itoba may be pleased to request the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding of the Student Social Allowances Program. *** Mr.

Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Clif Evans). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? (agreed] Mr. Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that:

WHEREAS there is a very serious solvent abuse problem in northern Manitoba; and

WHEREAS according to the RCMP over 100 crimes in Thompson alone in 1992 were linked to solvent abuse; and

WHEREAS there are no facilities to deal with solvent abuse victims in northern Manitoba; and

WHEREAS for over three years, the provincial government failed to proclaim the private member's anti-sniff bill passed by the Legislature and is now proposing to criminalize minors buying solvents even though there are no treatm ent facilities in northern Manitoba; and

WHEREAS for nine years, the 25 Chiefs who comprise the Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak, supported by medical officials, police and the area Member of Parliament, have proposed a pilot treatment project known as the Native Youth Medicine Lodge; and

WHEREAS successive federal Minis ters of Health have failed to respond to this issue with a commitment; and

WHEREAS the Manitoba provincial government has a responsibility to ensure that there is adequate treatm ent for solvent abuse. WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legislative Assembly of Manit oba may be pleased to request the Premier to consider making as a major priority, the establishment of a solvent abuse treatm ent facility in northern Manitoba. TABLING OF REPOR TS Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the High way Cons truction Programs for the Departmen t of Highways and Transportation for the year '93-94. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of all honourable members to the loge to my right, where we have with us this morning Mr. Sid Green, the former MLA for Inkster. On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this morning, sir. Also with us this morning, we have from the Charleswood Junior High School one hundred and eighty Grade 9 students under the direction of Ms. Barbara Fitzjohn. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Urban Affairs and Housing (Mr. Ernst) .

3760 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 3, 19 93 On behalf of all honourable members, I would like to welcome you here this morning. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Canada-America Health Care Plan Introduction Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, the Premier told Americans yesterday in New York that he and we here in Canada want to keep universal medicare and, in fact, said it is part of the Canadian dream, but yet there are growing fears and concerns among Canadians about the future of our most prized social program and our national jewel.

Here in Manitoba we are seeing some worrisome trends with the opening some time ago of a private hospital and now, Mr. Speaker, very recently the opening of the American Medical Security right here in Winnipeg on Hargrave Street, a firm that offers for Manitobans the Canada-America Health Care Plan. That is an offensive move here in Manitoba. It is a worrisome concern.

I want to ask the Premier, in light of his comments and his longstanding, at least rhetorical commit ment to medicare, if he feels it is appropriate for this kind of a firm that offers the Canada-America Health Care Plan to be opening here in Winnipeg and singling out seniors and advertising to seniors the benefits of an additional insurance plan to deal with waiting lists here in Manitoba. * (1 01 0) Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I do not want to go into a lengthy dissertation, although I assume I will have as much time as the member did to ask her question, so that will give me plenty of time to say that the point I made to the American audience was that Canada was taking the steps necessary in all provinces through the reform of health care to ensure that we could continue to live within our means and continue to have the best health care system available anywhere in the world.

Despite the urgings of some people in the investment community, perhaps in the business community, that Canada could not afford to continue with a medicare scheme, I said that we continue to have a different idea, what we believe is a better idea than the Americans, and that is that universal health care can provide for the needs of all of our citizens and can indeed offer us the kind of security for our elderly people, for people with long-term illnesses, so that they will never have to be destitute because of the costs of health care, and that we would continue to keep that as a very fundamental goal that was important to our society, that sets us apart from the Americans.

What they were seeing was the realization by governme nts of all political stripe that the way to do it was to work within the health care system to ensure that we fundamentally adjusted for the changing times, that through the reform of health care we would provide that health care on a more efficient basis, on a more effective basis, but that we would indeed continue to be committed to health care. That was the gist of my remarks to them, and I might say that I think they were very well received , Mr. Speaker. Government Action Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): Mr .

Speaker, then the Premier should be very concerned about the opening of an American firm here in Manitoba that advertises: Never worry again about having a long wait for hospital treatm ent.

I want to ask the Premier, since this firm charges, say, a family of seniors in the neighbourhood of $1 ,600 a year for that coverage, which means a two tiered health care system, which means people pay twice, which means the erosion of medicare, what is the Premier and his government doing to drive this kind of company out of business to make sure there is no market for this kind of insurance scheme and the creation of a two-tiered system . Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, what an incredible bias to suggest that the role of the government should be to drive the company out of business.

I mean, she assumes some fundamental ignorance on the part of the public that they would willingly spend money for something they do not need. The fact of the matter is, we have had reports here in this Legislature by the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) showing members opposite and others who have concerns as to how we are working to continue to reduce the waiting lists for people who needed surgery, showing in some areas that Manitoba ranks as well, in fact, in amongst the top provinces in the country in terms of short waiting lists.

June 3, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 3761 We recognize that there are some other areas in which, for a whole variety of reasons, there may be unacceptably long waiting lists, and we are working to correct and improve that. We are working to improve the health care system through a program, a very thoughtful program of health care reform, which is something that is being opposed, step by step, by New Democrats. The Liberal opposition, a very responsible opposition, with a knowledgeable critic, are working with the Minister of Health, encouraging him towards that goal.

The New Democrats are just saying, no, no, no, do not do anything; let the program deteriorate so that we can take political advantage of it-Mr. Speaker, a very, very foolish attitude, a very, very irrespons ib le atti tude . Obviously, Manitobans do not support that attitude. Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr. Speaker, I would have thought the Premier would have found it offensive to see this kind of adverti sement- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for St. Johns, this is not a time for debate. The honourable member for St.

Johns, with your question, please. * (1 015) Health Care System Waiting Lists Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask this government, since the presence of this company is obviously here because of a need and people's concern about waiting lists or their feelings that they are not able to access our health care system, where are the results of not only one, but two studies that this government undertook when they acknowledged waiting lists were longer than they should be and established and brought in outside consultants, reviews and studies to deal with the waiting list problem?

Where are the results of- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I am very intrigued with my honourable friend's questions. I am really intrigued with my honourable friend's approach to how business can and should be undertaken in the province of Manitoba. My honourable friend is holding up this new insurance company's venue as an answer to a lot of people's problems. When that was first announced to be coming to Manitoba I said, read the fine print. Mr.

Speaker, I say that because if you read the fine print in some of the insurance provisions in the United States that my honourable friend seems now to be embracing-or whateve r she is doing, I do not know-my honourable friend ought to have one single caution before she starts using--- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, this is a very serious matter. The minister should acknowledge that we have asked what this government is doing to drive out American health--- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I would remind the honourable member for St.

Johns that a point of order should not be used to direct another question. *** Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I could indicate that my honourable friend is at least consistent, because when she was around the cabinet table, they drove out the U.S. consulate from Winnipeg. Mr. Speaker, I want to tell my honourable friend that if she wants to talk about waiting lists and com pare waiti ng lists in Ma nitoba to other provinces, I will undertake that scrutiny.

But more importantly, my honourable friend ought to consider the waiting list of 35 million Americans who do not have insurance and compare that to the 26 million Canadians who have universal access to our program, receive needed services and have care appropriately delivered in a very, very good system that is undergoing change, reform and shifts from B.C. to Newfoundland.

Despite the fact that my honourable friend from the comfort of opposition persists in resisting every single change proposed in Manitoba, even though they are being unde rtaken in Ontario, Saskatchewan, and British Columbia, I tell her to contact her confrere s-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Yes, I regret that I must rise on another point of order, Mr. Speaker. I would like the minister to know that the last question I asked

3762 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA June 3, 19 93 was precisely the same question asked by the liberal Health- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for St. Johns knows she does not have a point of order. ACCESS Programs Fu nding Reducti on Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, my questions are for the Minister of Education. As a result of this minister's action, funds for ACCESS programs at Manitoba's universities have been reduced by $1.25 million. I would like to table the Estimates page on that.

As a result of this minister's action, there will be reductions in ACCESS programs of minus 24 percent at the Winnipeg Education Centre; of 19 percent in the Social Work program at the Winnipeg Educ ation Cen tre; minus 19 percent in the University of Manitoba's ACCESS program North; minus 16 per cent in the professional health programs; and the list goes on. I would like to table that report. As a result of this minister's actions, only- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Wolseley, would you kindly put your question now, please. Ms. Friesen: I would like to table that letter.

My question for the minister is: Where are the possible economic benefits to Manitoba of cuts such as these to the educational future of the most disadvantaged part of our community, people who come from communities where the unemployment levels are the highest in the- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put her question. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey {Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Spea ker, we have been discussing this issue for some time. I will begin by reminding the member again that the federal government has changed the way that it is funding ACCESS students.

The provincial government has moved in to pick up the shortfall of the federal government, $1.1 million last year. I will remind her, Mr. Speaker, that in fact, our commitment to ACCESS programs still remains at $9.9 million, and that we do have a total funded intake of more than 11 students. *

(1020) Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, the minister continues with the view that it was the role of the federal government. Two years ago, the federal government did cut back, and I want to ask this minister, who has made such a public commitment to Kim Campbell, has she conveyed her views that those cuts to ACCESS are unconscionable? Will she tell these ACCESS students and this House, how the world is going to be different under the Minister of Defence? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Speaker, I will be pleased to table in the Estimates process a letter that I have written to the federal minister responsible, to put forward Man itoba's position and to explain that it is unconscionable, what had happened in terms of the federal funding for ACCESS programs. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Speaker, has this minister, whose ed ucation policy includes building better golf courses and better car dealerships in the city of Winnip eg- will she tell us what the cumulative effects of her education policy are, the million-dollar grabs from ACCESS, from New Careers and from Student Social Allowances?

What is the effect- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, let me just tell the member the total amount of money that is provided for ACCESS students and for ACCESS supports. ACCE SS stude nts do rece ive a bursary. ACCESS students also receive rental subsidy. ACCESS stude nts also receive transportation allowance. ACCESS students also receive daycare expenses. They receive medical and optical benefits. They receive free tuition. They receive special supports. We currently support 712 ACCESS students in this province and we have taken in new intakes this year. Glmll Country Resort Audit Mrs.

Sharon Carstalrs {Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, for the past week, we have been examining the audits which have been conducted on the Immigrant Investor Fund. We have become concerned about those projects that have not been audited. On August 3, 1989, this government approved a pr oject to Lakeview Deve lopmen ts, from immigration investment funds, called the Gimli

June 3, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 3763 Country Resort. We raised questions about the appropriateness of that project in 1989. We know that the project was at least $1 0 million of Immigrant Investor Funds. Can the minister responsible tell this House why that has not been audited in light of the previous minister, the member for Charleswood's (Mr. Ernst) statement, that Lakeview has a proven track record in syndicating projects through the Immigrant Investor Program? Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr.

Speaker, when we tabled our original audit report back in December of 1992, at the end of December, that made some specific recommendations in which some events had occurred at that particular time relating to the Sheraton Hotel here in Winnipeg, we decided to undertake a review of specific funds. We basically looked at doing the maximum amount in terms of the dollar amount of Immigrant Investor Funds in Manitoba that we could. So we undertook five of the largest funds which totalled some $101 million out of approximately $200 million of Immigrant Investor Funds in the province of Manitoba.

It was on that basis that we chose the funds that were originally done. We all now have seen the audits. We have provided all of that information to everybody in this Chamber and the public at large. From those audits, we made a ser ies of rec ommendations to the federal government in terms of how we see improving the program. I think everybody in this Ch amber knows we have wi thd raw n from the program . We are no t participating in the program as a result of those audits. To do more historical audits might very well confirm a lot of what we have just found which is historical.

What we are doing today and have been doing over the last many months is saying, this is a program that has problems; it is a federal program and should be treated the same across Canada. The federal government has a responsibility in terms of compliance, monitoring and due diligence. We have indicated to them, get on with doing that. * (1 025) Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr.

Speaker, the reality is this is one of the very few, or at least the only one project that we know of, that actually had a contribution of provincial dollars, all the more reason it would seem to me for the province to conduc t an audit to see what happened to their $1 million of funds. Can the minister tell us today why, since there was provincial money involved, not just immigrant investor money, this government chose not to do an audit in the same process that they did the audits of other uses of Immigrant Investor Funds? Mr. Stefanson: Mr.

Speaker, I have just outlined in great detail for the Leader of the second opposition party why.

When she refers to the support provided to the Gimli resort project under the Canada Manitoba Tourism Agreement, a joint agreement between the federal and provincial governments, I think, as the Leader of the second opposition party knows, that is a form of support that is forgivable over a period of time subject to meeting certain condi ti ons, that the pr ovince and fede ral government take back security for those funds in the form of the real estate itself, in the form of the hotel that is up and built and functio ning and operating out in Gimli. Mr.

Speaker, we are in the process of completing the first phase of that particular audit on the million dollars that was provided. That forgiveness is given over a five-year period of time at approxima tely $200,000 a year if all conditions are met. We will be determining whether or not all conditions have in fact been met. It was tied to capital costs . We are reviewing those capital costs to confirm that they have in fact been met.

That is a part of the process that we do with the Canada-Man itoba Tourism Agreement, as we do with the Manufacturing Industrial Opportunities Program, as we do with a series of government initiatives. Mrs. Carstalrs: With the greatest respect, Mr. Speaker, that does not answer the question. We have an Immigrant Investor Fund that, quite frankly, is in shambles, that has been badly managed, badly set up by this side, badly managed by that side. We have an Immigrant Investor Fund that gets a contribution for part of its project from this province.

We conduct an audit of projects which get no government funding, an independent audit, but we do not do the same for this particular project. Is it because the government, quite frankly, did not want the independent audit to put egg direc tly all over the face of this government?

3764 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA June 3, 19 93 Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the second opposition party could not be more inaccurate if she tried. We are doing an audit of the funding support that we have provided, as we do under the Canada-Manitoba Tourism Agreement, as is done under all kinds of other financial programs. That support is tied to a series of conditions. lt is tied to a minimum of a cert ain capital cost, in this case, some $6.4 million or $6.5 million. Part of our audit includes verifying that those costs did in fact occur, and there are other conditions.

That is the nature of the financial support under the Canada-Man itoba Tourism Agreement. We have a responsibility to do our audit to see that all terms and conditions are in fact met, and we are doing just that. I am not sure where she is heading with this entire issue. We have audited other Immigrant Investor Funds. They pointed to problems in that program, which is a separate program. We made very specific recommendations to improve that program, to improve the credibility. We have withdrawn from that program, and we will continue to press the federal government to resolve those issues.

Sunday Shopping Minister's Position Mr. Jerry Storie (FII n Flon): Mr. Speaker, last night we began the process of public hearings on Sunday shopping legislation in the province of Manitoba. I have to say that the representation that we heard last night, cert ainly from rural Manitoba, was unanimous in its opposition to this, and the presenters expressed concern that no one was listening, certai nly the rural members. Mr. Speaker, this legislation has three strikes against it already as was pointed out last night. It is not wanted in rural Manitoba; it is not wanted by many merchants in the city of Winnipeg.

The Canadian Federation of Independent Business says 57 percent of retailers are opposed to this. Rnally, every single presenter said this government had shown cowar dice in passing off this decision to the municipalities. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Rural Development, the minister who is supposed to stand up for the interests of rural Manitoba: Does he support this legislation? * (1 030) Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Mr. Speaker, the member asks whether or not I personally support this kind of legislation.

Over the last year or so, this has been a point which has been discussed by UMM, MAUM and many of the organizations, the Chamber of Commerce of Manitoba. I have had extensive meetings with these organizations. There were resolutions that were presented at the floor of the general meetings of both MAUM and UMM. Let me say that in discussing the approach that has been taken with MAUM and UMM, they did not indicate to me that they had any serious difficulty in their being able to make those decisions for their people in their commu nities, because they are the people who are closest to those communities. Mr.

Storie: Mr. Speaker, I do not know what world the Minister of Rural Development lives in, but I have dozens of letters from cham bers and rural municipal council lors opposing this. Legislation Amendments Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Ron): Mr. Speaker, my qu estion is, agai n, to the Minis ter of Rural Development.

Given that last night, in a surprise to many, two representatives from major chains indicated that they would be satisfied with no Sunday shopping if there was a level playing field for the major chains, and given the fact that the Manitoba Chamber of Commerce and rural representatives there last night said they oppose this, my question is: Will this minister urge the government to stre ngthen the existing laws to meet the interests of the presenters last night, rather than barging ahead with wide-open Sunday shopping which Manitobans do not want? Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Rural Development): Mr.

Speaker, through the hearing process that has been established here at the Legislature, Manitobans from right across this entire province can come in and make their views known. That is what the process is for, to allow Manitobans to express their views. Mr. Speaker, I deal with many rural Manitobans and especially with the organizations such as UMM and MAUM, which represent the municip alities around this province.

From my discussions with them, they have indic ated to me that they are the people who are closest to the com munities and they are the ones who could probably make the decisions best for their commu nities at that level.

June 3, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 3765 Rural Public Hearings Mr. Jerry Storie (FIIn Flon): Mr. Speaker, the members who presented last night almost without ex ception said the go ve rnmen t is showing cowardice in fobbing off this decision to the municipalities. Mr. Speaker, my final question to the Minister of Rural Development is: Given that the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, in their presentation on this matter, said that there was inevitably going to be siphoning off-a nd I quote : We are also worried about the inevitable siphoning off of- Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

Your question is? Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, will the Minister of Rural Development now urge his colleagues to move the hearings to rural Manitoba, so that rural Manitobans will have an equal opportu nity to presenttheir views, given the fact there were two representatives- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Min ister of Rural Development): Mr. Speaker, the member knows well the process and the proce dure that is followed on hearings on debates on bills. Rural Manitobans are aware of what is happening at the Legislature.

They do know that if they want to make a presentation, presentation can be made before the commit tee. The commi ttee is publiciz ed widely. It is not as though rural Manitobans are unaware of what is going on in this building. Rural Manitobans are very much aware. Mr. Speaker, if they want to make presentations, they will be here to make those presentations. Department of Education and Training Admin istrative/Clerical Staffing Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Education consistently says that services to children are her primary concern, prior to cutting back on educational services to childr en. She says she is also always working within a plan and a planning process, yet when she cut the Program Development and Support Services branch, she cut 83 professional and technical staff who deliver direct services to children, and professionals that provide di rect su pport such as therap ists and child psychologists. At the same time she increased management- Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable member for Dauphin with your question now, please. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Minister of Educa tion, in light of the fact that she has incr eased the management ratio to staff by 20 percent and the secretarial support by 33 percent, how can she ju stify this under effi cient management? How can she justify- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member has put his question. Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, of course, the member is wrong in his numbers. The numbers were given to him the other day, and he has the numbers wrong again.

As the member knows also, the clinicians will now be employed directl y by school divisions. They will now be employed directly by the area where there will be the closest contact and supervision by the school division who will be making decisions on behalf of students, and clinicians will work directly with those individuals. As I also explained in the past, cli nicians' work has been done within school divisions. Therefore, when we look at the administrative support changes within my department, the administrative support was not necessarily given to clinicians previously. That work was done in the field.

If the member also looks in terms of the administrative support, again, he will find a reduction. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, the minister says my numbers are wrong. I am using her numbers that she finally gave us in the House, in the Legislature, in the comm ittee. Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that weii- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Dau phin, with his supplemen tary question now, please. Mr. Plohman: Nate Nurgitz referred to the yellow dogs, Mr. Speaker, and- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable member for Dauphin will put your question now, please. Mr. Plohman: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that this minister cut clinicians and at the same time revealed- Mr. Speaker: Question, please. Mr. Plohman: I want to ask the minister how she can justify cutting the clinicians while increasing the

3766 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 3, 19 93 sec retarial support for the remammg staff in absolute numbers from 85 to 87. What sense does this make? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, agai n, I have a decrease of eight SYs in the area of administrative support. As I have saidtothe member, as well, there was also some reclassification which was done, people who have been reclassified from Profession al/Technic al into the Administrative Support area.

I have also explained to the member that that administration support is offered not only to the individuals who work on a full-time basis within the De part men t of Edu cation and Trai ning, administrative support is also provided on a contract basis to those people who work for our department, for instance, in the area of some languages, just like heritage trai ning languages, whose support is offered by that administrative support.

I remind him again that on behalf of clinicians, administrative support to clinicians was in the past previously provided by school divisions and now will be provided by school divisions as they are employed directly by school divisions. Mr. Plohman: Mr. Speaker, in light of the fact that the clinic ian funding is total ly inadequate, the superin tendent of Ain Flon said: $20,000 per clinician inadequate to meet the needs, so let not the minister- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. This is not a time for debate. The honourable member for Dauphin will put your question now. Mr. Plohman: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I want to ask this minister how she can justify increa sing the management ratio by 20 percent, while she is cutting the clinicians in the province of Manitoba in the schools. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, the member's question tends to think that we have in fact increased the managemen t when in fact there has been a decrease in the management. So he tends to allow people to think that- Point of Order Mr. Plohman: On a point of order, this minister continues to mislead this House. In fact, there was an inc rease in the ratio. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

The honourable member clearly does not have a point of order. *** Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, so we have fewer managers within the PDSS section, Program Development and Support Services division.

I will also tell the member that we have worked very hard, and we discussed this in the Estimates process around the restructu ring and the reorganization within that division that has inclu ded both internal reorganization and external consu ltation as well, so that our service delivered will be the most efficient and will meet the priorities that have been identified by the client group. • (1 040) Agassiz School Division Extracurr icular Activities Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr.

Speaker, Agassiz School Division trustees, in an attempt to manage the unfairness of this government's funding formula, have decided to delete transportation for students for sports act ivities and field trips. This will mean that either students with financial resources only will be able to participate or in fact these educ ational opportunities will totally be gone. Can the Minister of Education tell this House: Does she support the decision by the trustees in Agassiz School Division to take these measures? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr.

Speaker, as the member said in her question, it is the trustees' decision about how they will spend the money available in the area of transportation. Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, this minister is a walking, talking contradicti on, because Bill 16 and Bill 22 directly intervene with the ability of the school divisions to make decisions. Mr. Speaker: The question is? Ms.

Gray: Can the Minister of Education tell this House, because she is di rectly involved with decision making in the school divisions because of Bill 16 and Bill 22, does she support the decisions of school divisions to cut out extrac urricular activ ities? It is a simple question. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, I am sorry that the member does not support actions on behalf of taxpayers of Manitoba. We have clearly had the message that taxpayers cannot conti nue to support more and more in the province of Manitoba.

June 3, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 3767 School divisions, with Bill 16, were given an opportunity within a limi ted range to look at increasing the amount of money needed for their special requireme nt. There certainly was money available, and perhaps the member needs to look at whether or not the full amount available was used by that particular school division. Ms. Gra y: Mr. Speaker, I have a final supplementary for the Minister of Education. She speaks of taxpayers. Well, taxpayers want to know the answer to this question as well.

Does she support the acti ons of school divisions to eliminate extracurricular activ ities? Can she tell the House, come forth, be honest, let us know her position? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Speaker, decisions will be made by school divisions in terms of how the money that is available to them through our funding formula and also through their own special levy is spent within their own school divisions. In terms of the availability for extracurricular activiti es, that will be the decision of the school divisions and also the other individuals who are involved in offering those activ ities.

Elder Abuse Educational VIdeo Mrs. Shirley Render (St. VItal): I think most of us know of the video, Standing Up for Yourself, which was produced for the Manitoba Seniors Directorate . I have just found out very recently that this video received second place in the Silver Screen Awards, which is spon sored by the Un ited States International Film and Video Festival. I think congratulations are definitely in order. Would the Minister responsible for Seniors tell the House how this video provides assistance to Manitoba's seniors? Hon.

Gerald Ducharme (Minister responsible for Seniors): I would like to thank the member for St. Vital for this wonderful question, Mr. Speaker. As you know, in 1989, when the Discussion Paper on Elder Abuse was on, the prime concern that came out of that discussion, the major concern, was elderly abuse and financia l abuse. As a result of that, a video was produced, and as a result, there are 1 ,500 copies throughout Canada and the United States. This release has been a valuable tool for the seniors, for different people throughout-the service providers. I would like to congratulate further, Mr.

Barry Lank, Lank Beach Productions from Winnipeg, a local production firm and Le Cercle Moliere who are the actors and actre sses, and also a local person, Mr. Monty Hall, who donated his time for this video. CP Rail Employee Layoffs Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona ): Mr. Speaker, in March, CP Rail confirmed that 200 jobs were going to be lost in their maintenance and mechanical areas. Right now the layoff notices are going out to 170 CP Rail shop employees here in Winnipeg, jobs tha t are being tran sfe rr ed to Moose Jaw, Saskatche wan.

With the 200 jobs that the CP Rail announced, actually only 174 of those customer service centre jobs were new jobs coming to the province of Manitoba, so we have a net loss of some 200 jobs for Manitoba. Can the Minister of Transportation tell us what success he has had in keeping railway jobs in the province of Manitoba? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speak er, this is such a wide-ranging question. For the last two years we have realized that rationalization is taking place with CP and CN as well.

Some time ago, in the last year, CN announced that they would be cutti ng 10,000 jobs across the cou ntry in order to rationalize their operations. The same thing is happening with CP. As late as this morning, I have heard that between the two rail lines, they are obviously looking at rationalizing their operations between the two of them, that ultimately we could end up with one rail line to provide the service for Canadians. If the member wants to start picking at what are the job gain and losses, there will be job losses in the rail industry as well as in the air industry as they rationalize their operations.

These companies cannot cont inue to lose money. The air industry, for example, has lost $2 billion in the last few years. CN and CP are both on the verge of losing money, are losing money, and have to ra tionalize their operations to be competitive. And that, whether we like it or not, is what is taking place out there. Mr. Reid: Is the Minister of Transportation aware that CP Rail plans to transfer its crew-cal ling bureau

3768 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 3, 19 93 to Montreal this fall and that Manitoba stands to lose another 12 jobs as a result of this action? Mr. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I could repeat the answer that I gave before, but I just want to tell the member that the actions that were taken by our Minister of Financ e (Mr. Manness) in reducing the tax on locomotive fuel by another 3.15 cents a litre is something that has been lauded across this country because it basically gives the message out there that we value transportation.

We know how important it is, and it gives us an opportunity to conti nue to negotiate with these companies in terms of trying to keep the jobs here. You try and make it as fair as possible in terms of equitable job losses across the cou ntry. Mr. Reid: My final supplementary to the same minister, Mr. Speaker: What action will the minister take to ensure that these 12 jobs remain in Manitoba and, using our time zone advantage, that the remaining CP Rail crew-cal ling jobs in Canada would be transferred to Manitoba? Mr. Driedger: Not only myself, but our Premier (Mr. Filmon), the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness), other of my colleagues, the Minister of I, T and T (Mr. Stefanson) are in constant- [interjection] The place is falling apart, Mr. Speaker. There are ongoing discussions in terms of seeing where there are economic and job benefits to be gained for the province, and we will continue to do that on an ongoing basis at all levels within our government to try and make sure that if there are job losses taking place, we are treated fairly in this province. Chemical Warehouse-Fisher Branch Clean Environment Commission Hearings Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, my question is to the Premier.

The Premier has thr oughout his mandate indicated his concern for the environment, his pleasure at the location and , in deed , his government's funding of the Centre for Sustainable Development, but once again, there has been a bad rating of the environm ental practices of this government, this time by the Sierra Club that, in fact , gave the province an F rating. [interjection] Well, the government can discount that partic ular organization as it does any organization with which it does not agree, but the reality is they took a look at a few specific projects and said the government gets an F.

I would like to know-for the Premier about one specific one. Will he tell the House today why his government still refuses to order a Clean Envir onment Commission hearing on the Fisher Branch facility? *

(1050) Hon. GaryFIImon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, if I may, because this is a special day, I think, in the life and career of the member for River Heights, I want to, on behalf of all of my colleagues, wish her well in her con tinuing endeavours. I think all Manitobans will recognize that this is her last day in the House as Leader of her political party. Regardless of political stripe, I know we will want to congratulate her for the efforts she has put in on behalf of people in Manitoba and wish her well in her conti nuing endeavours.

I am not saying I will buy her book, but I promise that upon my retirement, I will write a rebuttal to it. Mr. Speaker, it is interesting-( interjection] No, mine will not be that soon. It is interesting that the Sierra Club, in making its recomme ndations or its determination from a distance, seizes upon all of the political issues of the day as justification for trying to make an objective environmental judgment on a province. Mr. Speaker, I find it absolutely fasci nating when I read the list of projects they choose to criticize the province for.

They choose to criticize the province for one project that has not even begun its review by the Clean Environment Commission. Without any knowledge on their part, they have already made a decision that because the New Democrats are opposed to it, it is a bad project. Another one that is gainin g public positive attention right across this cou ntry and right across North America, now that it is in a completed stage and every person who is there recognizes the tremendous impact and value of the Interpretive Centre at Oak Hammock Marsh, and they are still read ing from the old speeches of the New Democrats, Mr.

Speaker. It is an unbelievable-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, I am wondering, in tribute to the Liberal Leader on her last day in this

June 3, 19 93 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 3769 House, perhaps if the Premier could answer the question briefly. Mr. Speaker: The honourable member does not have a point of order. *** Mr. Fllmon: I am sure the Leader of the Liberal Party will appreciate on her final day in the House that she has finally gotten the support of the House leader of the New Democratic Party. I am sure she will not consider that going out on a high, mind you. Mr. Speaker, with respect to the project at Fisher Branch, I know that is an issue under review by the Minister of Environment (Mr.

Cummings), and I think he has indicated that he will look at the project in view of concerns being expressed. I take the concerns of the Leader of the Liberal Party more seriously than I do of those from afar, who make their judgments based on the press clippings they read of questions New Democrats raised in this House. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Committee Change Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the memberfor The Maples (Mr.

Cheema), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Economic Development be amended as follows: the member for River Heights (Mrs. Carstairs) for St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry). Motion agreed to. Nonpolitical Statements Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister responsible for Multiculturalism): May I have leave to make a nonpolitical statement? [agreed] It is my pleas ure to bring the forthcoming celeb ration of Philippine Heritage Week to the attention of members of this House. June 6 to 14 marks a special observance for Manitoba's Filipino community.

It is a cele bration of both their cultu ral heri tage and the 95th anniver sary of the independence of the Philippines. Phili ppine Heritage Week is a joyous and exuberant recognition of the Rlipino cultural legacy within the context of Manitoba's diverse multicultural society. At the same time, it is a proud commem ora tion of the historical emergence of the Philippines as a free and independent nation. Philippine Heritage Week provides an excellent opportunity for all Manitobans to share, learn and understand more about the Filipino heritage and Filipino people. Mr.

Speaker, I encourage all members of this House and all Manitobans to join with me in wishing our Filipino com munity all the best during this festive occa sion. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for St. Johns have leave to make a nonpolitic al statement? [agreed) Ms. Judy Wasylycla-Lels (St. Johns): On behalf of the New Democratic Party, I would like to join with the Minister responsible for Mul ticulturalism in acknowledging that this marks the beginning of Philippine Heritage Week, a very important week of multicultural cele bration in Manitoba today. This is an appropriate time, Mr.

Speaker, to acknowledge the contribution of the many Filipinos in our community at large and to pay tribute to the commitment of Filipinos everywhere in Manitoba to the preservation of their heritage, their culture, their language and their determination to share their heritage with Manitobans everywhere. We are stronger for the contribution of the Filipino community, and this week we delight in celebrating with Filipinos a number of cel ebrations, festivities and activ ities that will enhance our quality of life and take one more step toward the preservation of our mosaic here in Manitoba.

So on behalf of everyone here, I would like to add our congratulations and best wishes to the Filipino co mmuni ty on their organization of Philip pine Heritage Week. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for The Maples have le ave to make a nonp olitical statement? [agreed] Mr. Guizar Cheema (The Maples): Mr. Speaker, I would like to join with the minister and the member for St. Johns on this very important occa sion for the Filipino commu nity in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, this is their week of celebration where they are going to enjoy their traditional culture. Also, as the member for St.

Johns has said, this commu nity is contributing in a major way to this province and to our city of Win nipeg, and they have become a very important part of our co mmunity. I think we are proud ofthem and, cert ainly, I would lik e to com mend the co mmu nity for doing a wonderful job last year. The celebrations, we all

3770 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA June 3, 19 93 enjoyed. We enjoyed the food and their cultural activ ities. Mr. Speaker, I would hope that Mr. Speaker would join with the Filipino commu nity and come and cele brate the occasion. ORDE RS OF THE DAY Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, per previous discussions and agr eemen t, we are plannin g to go into Estim ates now. It is my under stand ing, an agreement has been struck that Health Estimates will begin at this particular point in time. I also understand that we will sit, by agreement Mr.

Speaker, I do not know whether a final time has been set- Mr. Speaker: Two thirty. Mr. Manness: -but certai nly discussions will lead to a final time. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Downey), that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker: Prior to putting the question, I will recognize the honourable opposition House leader. Mr. Steve Ashton (Opposition House Leader): Ju st on House business, Mr.

Speaker, the agreement was to sit until 2:30, and I would suggest that perhaps we announce that now so that we, since we are going into Estimates, do not have to adjourn Estimates and come back into the House. The agreement was for 2:30. Mr. Manness: Mr. Speaker, I am aware of that. If there is no trust, and I know there was trust built around that, but if 2:30 was the established time-1 am reluc tant to always put that out, because sometimes there is a will. [interjection) I am not pushed by the government. The government will not push me on that, but sometimes there is a desire to work beyond that time.

Indeed, if the members want me to announce 2:30, that is what I will do. I will announce 2:30 so not to frustrate the good process of negotiating that the deputy House leader of our party has engaged, indeed, all House leaders. So, Mr. Speaker, under that basis, I would move, seconded by the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Downey), that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty . • (1 1 00) Motion agreed to, and the House resolved itself into a comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) in the Chair for the Department of Education and Training; and the honourable member for Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) in the Chair for the Department of Health. COMMITTEE OF SUP PLY (Concurrent Sections) EDUCATION AND TRAINING Mr. Deputy Chairperson (Marcel Laurendeau): Order, please.

Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This morning, this

section of the Committee of Supply me eti ng in Room 255 will resu me consideration of the Estimates of Education and Training. When the comm ittee last sat, it had been considering item 2.(1 )(

a) on page 35 of the Estimates book. Ms. Jean Friesen (Wolseley): At the end of last time, I think, we were looking at the changes in the I. B. program over the period since 19 85, and I was expressing my concern about the shift away from the diploma and whether this reflected anything, any larger concerns in the schools. I think right atthe end of last time, I was expressing my concerns, and I want to follow it up with questions about the amount of work which is done by students outside of schools in the years above Grade 9. I wonder if the department collects any numbers on that.

I know anybody can get informal numbers by talking to teachers in high schools, but some of the informal numbers in Estimates that one gets are that over 50 percent of students in some schools are in fact working more than 20 hours a week. I wonder if the department does collect statistics on this and how long they have been collecting them and what is happening in Manitoba. Hon.

Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): I am informed that we do not col lect formal statistics on the number of hours students work outside of school time, and our information would be the informal statistics the member has spoken about to this point.

·- June 3, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 3771 Ms. Friesen: I am sorry, I missed the last sentence on the informal statistics. Mrs. Vodrey: The member referred to informal information from discussion with teachers, and we woul d ha ve the same kinds of in formal conversat ions. Ms. Friesen: The minister will have to refresh my memory, but I think between certain ages, the principal must approve students who do take on work outside school. Rrst of all, maybe we should get the information correct. What ages is that? What hours of work are limited?

Does the department or do the school divisions collect that information centr ally? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is the school divisions that might collect some information. They do not report the information to us. The princi pal may sign off where asked to for children or young people under 16 years of age who wish to be employed during the week. I am informed that not all employers ask for that sign off. Therefore, the information that we have is not relative to all employment that young people may take on.

It would be the school division doing some monitoring and then parents doing also, knowing whether their young person is involved in an after-school or after-hours job as parents are responsible till age 18 . Our Student Sup port branch which deals particularly with our at-risk students, has not had concerns raised by schools to include this as an area for us to collect data. We are in the process of getting feedback from divisions regarding the conditions and the characteristics that are a concern to them in order to revise our data collection process. Ms. Friesen: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I am sure the minister is aware that this is a growing public issue. I do not think it has been addressed in Manitoba, but certainly in the United States it is increasingly an issue and there have been a number of studies which have looked at the school partici pation and marks, in particular. I recognize that is only one element of student evaluation, but they are certainly looking at the marks of students in relation to the number of hours that they are working. Once you get above about 1 0 hours, the marks drop off.

Up to 10 hours, it is possible that some studies in fact do show that there is an improvement in marks, but after a certain level they begin to drop off. After, when students are putting in 30 hours, then the marks drop off very rapidly. Teachers I have spoken to bear that out, again, in an informal way. It seems to me that it is an area of concern, and I wonder if the department has ever looked at this and if it is a concern for the minister. * (1 11 0) Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, as I said in my previous answer, we are aware. We have done some of the same reading that I am sure the member has.

There have been recent newspaper articles on the issues of students who work as well as attending school. In the first instance as I said, school divisions have not raised this as a characteristic of concer n for them. Through our Student Support branch, we are looking at characteristics of students at risk, and we are attempting to revise our list of characteristics in order to deal better with programs for students at risk.

So school divisions which would have the closest association with the number of hours that students might work or whether or not there are a large number of students within schools working certain numbers of hours have not raised that as an issue. I am informed, as well, that there does not seem to be any conclusive research in the correlation between the numbers of hours worked and student performance, that there may be some research on both sides and there may be varying threshold numbers, but there does not seem to be anything specifically conclusive on that. Ms.

Friesen: Is it the practice of the department to wait for school divisions to raise issues such as this? This seems to me something which would affect students across the province, at least in areas where that kind of employment is available. Is it not possible for the minister to have a concern and to raise this with the school divisions to see if it is a concern with them? It seems to me there is a leadership role for a Department of Education to play in essentially saying and creating a clim ate that does not just say stay in school, but that your first job is to be a student.

I think that is what we are losing, not just in Manitoba, but in North America generally, the idea that being a student and studying and being in the library and reading and attending to matters of student work are the first concern of young people.

3772 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA June 3, 19 93 Because we are losing that battle to create I suppose what the public ity agencies would call a learning environment, I think that any of these kinds of public relations campaigns the minister and her federal counterparts are involved in are really only going to touch the edge.

I think we have to get across the idea that learning begins at the beginning, and it begins in school, and that school is the most important thing, and that 30 hours a week and 40 hours a week which students are now beginning to do at Grade 1 0--and they are doing it in part because they want to keep a job right through university, so in college and university, they are turning up having three to four years of experience of essentially part-ti me schooling which has been passed off as full-time schooling. Their expectati ons of what learning and work and study are about are changing.

I know there are economic reasons for this, but it seems to me there is also a responsibility of the Department of Education to begin to say, look, here are the studies which do present particular thresholds for you r marks, and here are the consequences of starting in Grade 9 and 1 0 to work 30 hours a week. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the member is raising some concerns about young people and their engagement in the education process.

I agree that one of the main tasks of education is to seek the engagement of students within that learning process and then, throughout the process, to continue the engagement and where students are at risk of that disengagement, for education to be some of the support which helps students remain in the system. The federal government and the provincial government have taken the issue of, and not just students dropping out, but as the member said, perhaps a sort of part-t ime schoo ling, as an important issue, in that we want students to be able to remain in school and make the most of the education process.

As the member said, there are a number of reasons that young people may decide to work on a part-ti me basis which are outside of the scope of what actually happens on a daily basis in school in terms of whether schools can entirely influence that. There are economic factors within a family that may cause a student to work on a part-time basis. That work may be in order to assist the family, or it may be on behalf of the student himself to provide for some of that student's own needs because of the family's economic situation.

The school's role in that area is to support the student in every way in the continued engagement of learning. There is another outside factor which influences whether or not the student will conti nue working part time, will work part time for a short or for a long period. • (1 12 0) Other issues which influence students working full or part time are migrancy issues, families moving, students needing to help out sometimes as a way to become involved in the com munity.

There are a number of reasons which account for students working and which the educational system can continue to provide suppor t for the student's continued engagement in the learning process but which may not be able to chang e the factors within the family that cause students to work on a part-time basis.

In terms of helping students as they make decisions about this, because if there are pressures which are not in the family but which are, in fact, then peer pressures or pressures relating to that student's own age range, the Skills for Independent Living course, which we will be offering on a compul sory basis in the fall, does have content areas which look at decision making, problem solving and choice making.

These are some of the considerations which young people would be using as they make decisions about whether or not they will be in part-time work or whether they will limit the amount of part-ti me work to a certain number of areas. So this point, two factors, one , issues and pressures outside of what education can control educat ion has to support them. Where students do not experience those pressures we do provide some support within our own system to help students make the best choices possible in terms of whether or not they will engage in part-ti me work.

Then we also look for parents to be involved where possible as well, that parents are a valuable source to students in terms of decision making and also in developing attitudes toward school. In terms of actually collecting data or a survey, some of the difficulties with the data collection-this is outside of a specific reason, but a data collection, for instance-is that the students may be employed

June 3, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA on a short-term basis for a certain number of hours and then leave, or they may be employed on a longer-term basis and change the hours they are worki ng. For schools to try and atte mpt a comprehensive data collection process would be very comprehe nsive and could be very time con suming. That is one of the issues that has been identified as a difficult one. I can say, again, the overriding issue appears to be one of engagement.

We want to make sure that students remain engaged in the educational system and in the process, so where students are at risk, we look to guidance counsellors to assist in helping to identify those students. We try to support through course work. In addition, our Student Support branch is very happy to work with schools on behalf of young people in regard to a number of issues. I remind the member too, in terms of the Student Support branch, the Student Support branch works with individual schools as they develop programs. It is not necessarily a whole division-wide plan that has to fit in.

Where schools identify an issue that particularly affects them, then we can look at working with schools toward helping them with those students at risk in their particular area. Ms. Friesen: I am glad to see that Skills for Independent Living has the opportunity to look at that because I think it is an appropriate place. I do not think work hours are specifically identified in the curriculum, but it is one area where there is enough flexibility presumably to introduce that.

I think if the department chose to, if the minister chose to, there are ways of bringing that to the attention of the teachers and the students who are going to be involved in that. The data col lection, yes. I mean, data collection from Statistics Canada downward is difficult and is accompanied by many of the same difficult criteria the minister has suggested for this particular range of data coll ection. The smaller and smaller samplings that Stats Canada now has to do, in fact, does certainly shed doubt on the levels of accuracy of much of their material. I do not think it is impossible to do.

I think there are kinds of spot studies and small-scale studies that at least could give us an idea of whether it is an issue and where it is an issue. For example, I am sure that in the areas of the province north of the Parkland, where the unemployment rate generally is in the 80 to 90 percent range, it is not an issue. There are different reasons for not being in school . In other parts of the province, obviously in agricultural communities, there are going to be different issues than there are in the inner city and in the suburbs.

My sense is that a suburban school is going to be as concerned by this as the kinds of communi ties which we often think of as at risk. I would support the minister if she were to look at some spot studies of this to see, in fact, whether it is an area that we should be bringing to people's attention in a public way. Again, I am looking at it for its effect upon the whole educational system in the province, from Grade 9 upward, right through to university and college, because it is not that students are going to school part time and then working part time. It is that they are going to school.

I do not really want to use the word "passing off" but, essentially, that is what it is. They are going to school full time, but they are not giving their full attention or their full time to it; certainly, when they are working 20-30 hours a week, they are not. That expectati on of what school is and what level of studying and work and written work can be expected from students begins to go down, and the effect of that is being felt, I think, throughout all our educational institutions. So I do think there is a real leadership role for the government, for a Minister of Education, to play in here.

I accept that Skills for Independent Living might begin to look at that, and on an individual basis students might begin to take into account the long-term effects of the decisions that they are making. It is also establishing in Manitoba, and in North America generally, a cultur e which says that being a student is a job and that it is something which people should do, in the best of all possible worlds, on a full-time basis, and that learning is important in school as much as it is out of school and all the lifelong learning efforts that the city of Winnipeg or anywhere else wants to initiate.

If you lose it in school, then I think you have lost the battle for the public mind, in a sense. So those are my concerns. I did want to draw them to the attention of the minister, and I would support anything that she could do in fact that would begin to change those perceptions. Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I accept the serious discussion that we have had on this issue. I

3774 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA June 3, 19 93 will certainly add it to the consider ation of the department in the next year. Ms. Friesen: I wanted to again go back to curriculum and to the International Baccalau reate program and the question that the member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock) raised. He asked about the relationship between an international curriculum really and the In ternational Baccalau reate curri culum. The minister's concern is that the students fulfill the Manitoba curriculum first. That is right, and they do.

What is startling about that program is that the students in that program complete the Manitoba curriculum so quickly. For example, I know that in math and some of the sciences the I. B. students are completing the Manitoba curriculum for an entire year in one term. They have to go at that rate in order to move through to the later years. Given that, in the five schools in which it is offered, there is a range of students who can do that, what are the reflections of the department? How does this affect how you look at our own curri culum? Are there areas of change that we should be looking at?

Is our curricul um in those areas challenging enough for our students? If we have some who can comple te a whole year in one term, presumably, we have another 20 percent who can com plete a whole year in half a year, and then, presumably, there is another 1 0 percent who can do that year's work much faster. So, given the desire of the minister and, I think, Manitobans generally to increase the challenges in our schools, is there some evidence here? Is there something we should be working with and paying attention to? Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please.

I would like to remind the honourable member that we are dealing with (

a) Division Administration

(1) Salaries. The line you are dealing with at this time with your questioning is the Curriculum Services, which is (b), the next line. If you would like, we could pass Division Administration and move on to Curriculum at this time. Ms. Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I realize, strictly speaking, that you are right, but I thought what we had been doing is that, for example, we have asked questions on the Manitoba School for the Deaf, on distance education, I think, and a couple of other things in this area, and then we would pass the whole thing. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson: If that is the will of the comm ittee, that is the way we will do it. * (1 13 0) Mrs. Vodrey: I am not sure if the member is suggesting then that we not go line by line in this area, but, instead, we discuss it in a holistic way and then pass the division. The point that the member raised is that I.B. students do complete the curriculum in a somewhat shorter time, and then the question that seemed to flow from that is, is there any effort on our part then to totally evaluate our curriculum in terms of its own excellence?

Where lw ould start isagaint o say, as the member herself has said, students who do the I.B. program tend to be among the more advanced students acade mically, and those students are able to accomplish that, but other students in Manitoba perhaps do need a little bit more time in which to accomplish the curricu lum. As our curriculum is set up, it is developed with a set of time guidelines where one credit allows for 11 0 hours, and a half credit allows for 55 hours in which to accom plish the content area.

But when we look at our curriculum, one of the issues we have spoken about is to look at the whole area of standards, and we do want to make sure that Manitoba's curriculum is a strong curriculum and a curriculum which will allow our students to be compe titive. We are in the process of a review of our curriculum comparing Manitoba's curriculum with the curriculum in Germany. We are looking at the differences in the curri culum, the goals and the objectives of the curricu lums, so we can look at our curriculum in an international way.

In our math curri culum, we have looked at an extensive comparison with countries in western Europe. So we are looking in an international way at our curricu lum. In addition, we are also looking at revisions within our curricu lum, particularly to strengthen it based on our own review, particularly in the area of science and math. Ms. Friesen: Are any of those curricula reviews ready yet or completed? What is the fate of them? Are they going to be for public discussion or is it for internal review? Mrs. Vodrey: Those studies and reviews are cur rently in progress. They are for the use of the K

June 3, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 3775 to 12 Steering Committee, and the K to 12 Steering Committee is made up of a representative group of superintendents, trustees, teachers, parents and also post-secondary institutions. Ms. Friesen: Is that the beginning of a consistent or a longer-term international comparison? For example, you started with math and science, and, obviously, that is easier to compare, but is it going to look at other areas ; language studies, for example? Mrs.

Vodrey: In terms of looking on an ongoing basis, as part of our direction for reform, as part of wanting to make sure that in the reform process our curriculum is the best, we are trying to look at our curriculum in comparison to those which people have said are among the best in the world.

But also today, I would like to tell the member that the Canadian Direc tors of Curricu lum from across Canada are meeting today in Winnipeg at our offices at 11 81 Portage, and that is part of our effort, as well, across Canada in a national sense to examine our curricu lum, to look at our curriculum in the light of curriculum and curriculum issues across Canada. So we are trying to, through the process of reform, look at our own internal curriculum review, a curriculum review across Canada and then also in an international sense. Ms.

Friesen: Thank you, but the question I was asking is, you are beginning with math and science. Are you intending in the Manitoba context to look specifically at, for example, language studies, not just English language but French and third and fourth languages? Mrs. Vodrey: The next area that we are planning to look at is vocational education and technology. Ms. Friesen: I wanted to go back perhaps to the lessons that I.B., in a way an experimental program, offers, and that is, some students are able to move much more quickly than others, but we are only looking at a range of five schools where that is possible.

It is obviously one of the criticisms that is often offered of the I.B . program, that it is not made available to all Manitobans. There are lots of historical and practical and financial reasons for that. But I wonder if the Manitoba government' s responsibilit y might not be to make the other opportunities available for a speedier passage through the Manitoba curricu lum in other schools. Now I know some of those other schools do offer Chal lenge programs as well, the Americ an Challenge program , but, again , that is still a relatively small number and there must be a wide number of students.

I mean, we are looking, presumably, at 20 percent of students who can move more quickly through the existing Manitoba program. I wonder, since you have a review in progress, are those the kinds of questions that a review is looking at? • (1 14 0) Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I would just like to point out that, first of all, in each of the curricu lum areas, there is an area for enhancement and enrichment and expansion of the curricula as it stands, as there is also an area for modification of the curriculum where a student may need more time than the 11 0 hours or somewhat different teaching sty le and experience in accom plishing tha t curricu lum. Within the curriculum that we have now, we are looking to offer the most extensive experience for students depending upon which area their needs are in. We also do offer, as the member says, some advanced courses.

Those advanced courses are available to students where the curriculum has been comp leted and then they can take an advanced cou rse within the high school program . The advanced courses have been primarily offered in the area of math in Senior 4. We have looked at Answering the Challenge and some of the strategies in Answering the Challenge, and there are two strategies, Strategies 73 and 74, which look at the development by the department of courses in an advanced area. That would be within our cu rricu lum, tho ugh, as opposed to the placement of a university credit within the high school years. Ms.

Friesen: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, does the department have any sense of whether the numbers of students taking those kinds of programs or of the enrichment being offered within the Manitoba curriculum-do you have any sense of the numbers of schools where that is happening? I am also looking for, of course, a trend. Is it increasing or is it decrea sing? What sort of five-year period are we looking at here? Mrs. Vodrey: We know that number is increasing.

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 3, 19 93 Ms. Friesen: Is the minister looking at a particu lar five-year period, or increasing over last year? What does increasing mean? Can you get any closer than that? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we have spoken a little bit about our tracking system in the past while. The way, at the moment, that we are able to track students is really at a one-time-a-year snapshot in terms of enrollment. That enrollment has indicated that there has been an increase.

The latest statistics that we have available specifically in that tracking are the school year '90-91 , which showed a conti nued increase. As we move to our new management information system and education information system, we will have a much more efficient way to track students and perhaps at more than just a once-a-year enrollment date. Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentwood): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, since we are looking at this

section in a global way, I have a number of questions on Distance Education and Technology. My first question would be to the minister. Could she just give us a snapshot or a synopsis of where Distance Education and Technology is at in her department, what the objectives or goals are within the next year in regard to Distance Education and Technology? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, in the area of Distance Education and Technology, we really do see some benefits which will be available to our province with distance education.

One of the major initiatives in '93-94 for the Distance Ed branch is to continue with the five-year plan for the K through Senior 4 course adaptation to distance delivery. This plan will help to further develop and refine courses offered through the Independent Study Program and also the Teac her Mediated Program. In 19 93-9 4, the staff in the Techno logy Applications and Training Unit of the branch will be con tinuing their research into the area of interactive television, the CD-ROM and the interactive video disk materials.

An example of this research is a field project which involves schools particip ating as pilot sites to evaluate the Grade 5 science laser disk materials. As indic ated in the 199 3 schools funding announcement, a professional development grant has been made availabie to each school division interested in advancing in the area of instructional technology. The branch will be responsible for approving applications from school divisions for the funding. Then the Task Force on Distance Education and Technology presented their final report to me.

During 19 93-94, the branch will be responsible for enabling divisions to develop consortia to support com munity-based, lifelong learning through the Distance Education infrastructu res. Then, during the last year, Manitoba Education and Training, through our Distance Education program and our Curri culum Services Branch, est ablished a par tner ship with pr ovinces of Alber ta, Saskatchewan and British Columbia to develop com pu ter-assis ted learning materials for mathematics cou rses at Senior 1 through 4 levels.

Now all four provinces will benefit from the combined output by sharing in the courseware development. Then, in 19 93-94, Education and Training, through our Distance Education Branch and the Universities Grants Commission, will continue to support the FYDE program, offering First Year Distance Education to five rural and northern communi ties.

This year, the branch will support the new and evolving distance education initiatives, such as the one in Evergreen School Division and the proposed Northwest Distance Education ini tiative, by providing the program deliv ery expertise, staff training and program development support to ensure that the regional initiatives are successful. • (1 15 0) Ms. Gray: The minister mentions the Evergreen project. Is that then one of the pilot sites? Mrs. Vod rey: Mr. Deputy Chair person , at Evergreen, it would be considered a new program. It is a new area of work, and it is a new area of work in the interactive process.

What we will be looking at is off ering supp ort and also developing information again about the interactive learning. Though it could be described as a pilot, it is, in fact, a new area of work. Ms. Gray: Can the min iste r cla rify then the parti cular proposal that was put forth from Evergreen regarding the interactive program? Has that been approved by the department? Are there monies that are allocated for that project? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, at this point the staff are still in discussion with the Evergreen School Division, and we are looking at establishing

June 3, 19 93 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 3777 the terms of reference and also the area of significant work that the department would do and that the division would do. So I am not able to give her, at this point, a complete end-point answer. Ms. Gray: If the department is now working with Evergreen to look at terms of reference, does that mean that there is some approval in principle for a project go-ahead ? Where would dollars be coming from for this project? Will it be up to the divisions to come up with those dollars, or is there other support from the departmen t? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, what we would be looking at would be a partnership in which both the school division would be learning and we would be learning while service is being provided to schools. Because this is under discussion at the moment, I am not able to give the member details of that discussion right now or the results of the discussion. Ms. Gray: Again, just another clarification, is it reasonable then to say that at this point in time there are ongoing discussions but no decisions have been made in regard to whether this project will go ahead? Is that a reasonable statement? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, that is reasonable. Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell us what discussions she or her departmental staff have had with MTS, Manitoba Telephone System, in regard to the whole area of Distance Education and Technology? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, certainly with the work of the task force there was significant discussion with Manitoba Telephone System during the process of that task force. Now there is the potential of re gio nal consor tiums. With that potential, and continuing the ongoing work that was recommended by the task force, then there would be continued communication. Ms.

Gray: Can the minister tell us, with the task force rep or t that sh e has, were ther e recomme ndations in that report about working closely with Manitoba Telephone System to look at the entire cost of this Distance Education and Technology? What some of the school divisions and individuals in the educational field are certainly saying to us, and I am sure to the minister as well, is that right now oftenti mes these costs in terms of setting up distance education tend to be prohibitive for school divisions.

My first question is: Was that indicated in the task force, and was there a recommendation from the task force in regard to that? If so, what was that recommendation, and what is going to be done in regard to negotiating with MTS in regard to looking at some reasonable way to ensure that distance education could be accomplished within school divisions at a reasonable cost?

In fact, this technology could actually be used in communities not simply for education, but for other things as well, whether it is economic development, entrepreneurship in regard to small business, whatever. ! mean, I think the field is limitless in terms of what could be achieved in rural and northern Manitoba with this type of technology. Mrs. Vodrey: We think that there are some great possibilities for distance education and have been speaking about those possibilities for the education system and for other benefits to communities.

As we have looked at it, costing has been part of the look that we have done at Distance Education, but I can say to the member that, at this point, this is still under discussion by government and we are in the process of those discussions now. Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell us if there is within one ofthe committees of cabinet-and I do not recall the names of all the committee s----is there one of the committees of cabinet that is specifically looking at this type of technology in regard to the implications not only for education, but for other areas as well, particularly economic development? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, the issue of distance education is an important one; it is a broad one; and it is being considered by government. Ms. Gray: Can the minister tell us, to be more specific, how is it being considered by government, in what form? Mrs. Vodrey: The task force report has been a very significant report. Phase 1 report was a very significant report.

So I can tell the member that the information has been discussed with all members of government, and we are now looking at it as a government because we recognize that the benefits of distance education and the potential of distance education have a wide effect across many, many departments and ministries. Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): Just on this subject, I would just like to make a comment as it relates to distance education.

3778 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 3, 19 93 This is something that I know that the minister has taken a leadership role in as we have had to deal with difficult economic times within government. What are some of the alternatives that are out there for particularly some of our rural commun ities and our northern com munities? It is a technology that holds a lot of promise, I believe, and I think that there will be tremendous co-operation and supp ort for suc h a project, particularly when we see the interchange that is available and the technology that is there.

What you are really doing is moving the education to the students rather than the students to the education. I think it will maintain a lot of com munities that have lost students because they have had to go elsewher e for educat ion. It all boils down to efficiency and proper use of money. * (1 200) I am qu ite satisfied that the Department of Education and the minister have been very open minded and very co-operative on this front. They have seen that there have to be some changes take place to deliver the ever-increasing demands on the department and on the taxpayers who have to provide the funds for it.

I can say, again, as a member for rural Manitoba and representing northern Manitoba, I am, quite frankly, excited about it. I think that the principle of taking education to the students rather than the students to the education and a broad range of teachers who are sitting in a particular area providing that educational service can be provided to a far broader range of numbers of people than what has been traditional one on one. There are certainly different approaches that have to be considered. There is the question of classroom supervision. There are all the technical things that have to be dealt with.

I think the minister and her department are moving very aggressively on this front. I think we will receive very much support-and I say this for the school divisions that I represent, a lot of support on this initiative. It is better to do that than it is to see the situation where some schools may have to close because of lack of numbers and increased costs . It is an alternative. On the other side of the coin, though, we have to be conscious of the fact that when we are introducing new programs we do not always have new resources to put with those new programs.

So one would expect, at the same time, for school divisions to make some decisions as it relates to where they are spending resources that can be given up to apply to this new process. I think it is new and modern technology that has to be applied, has to be done properly. I think it will enhance the education opportunities for rural and remote communities. I just compliment the minister and want to publicly urge her to proceed on this path. Ms. Gray: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is interesting to hear the comm ents from the Minister of Native and Northern Affairs (Mr.

Downey) in regard to distance education technology. Again, he has referred specifically to how this new technology can be used within education. That is certainly one of the issues. I think as well that this type of technology available through Manitoba Telephone System has muc h br oa der implic ati ons. Many mo re opportunities are available for this government to take a leadership role and to use this type of technology to assist in other areas, not simply educ ation as we may define it, but in terms of economic development, et cetera.

The Minister of Native and Northern Affairs referred to how this technology in regard to education specifically could assist some of the school divisions in actually remaining as viable school divisions, particularly in the rural areas, and not being forced to close. With all due respect to the five-year plan that the minister has outlined, I do not think some of these school divisions have five years left at the rate they are going.

I guess my question would be, is there any kind of a move on behalf of cabi net-we have heard about support from two ministers here in this room today on behalf of Distance Education. Is there some move afoot to actually look at this technology, speed up the plan, and actually decide if there are some things that can be done within the next two years in these school divisions in rural Manitoba?

That is going to mean negotiating with Manitoba Telephone System to find out a reasonable way of delivering these services, because I do not think these school divisions, with all due respect, whether it is Antler River or whether it is other school divisions, necessarily have five years left in terms of their viabil ity . Surely, the government would recognize that to come up with a plan and perh aps even have some dollars available in looking at this now, those dollars would be far better utilized than to be frittering away other dollars over five years in

June 3, 19 93 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 3779 trying to have school divisions stay open when in fact it is not viable. I guess I just see a need to have a plan in place now, to have some dollars available to look at this because how viable is it? I mean, if it is going to be a saviour to some of these school divisions in rural Manitoba, which the Minister of Native and Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) seems to indicate that it may be, well, Jet us get something going now. I still ask the same question: Is cabinet looking at this whole issue as a group?

What discussions have gone on wi th the Minis ter res pon sible for Mani tob a Telephone System (Mr. Findlay)? What can be done? Is perhaps this not an opportunity? The Premier (Mr. Filmon) of this province is always complaining about how oppositions never come up with solutions or alternatives. Here is an idea and it is cert ainly not an opposition idea, but it is out there by people in the education field, out in the school divisions. It has been supported by cabinet ministers here.

Here is an idea that possibly has some solutions for the viabili ty of school divisions and the delivery of service and education in rural and northern Manitoba. Where is it on the cabinet agenda? What specifically has been done to look at this area? Mr. Downey: It is not to answer the questions that the Minister of Education will deal with, but just to further comment, the reason that it is raised and discus sed here, and I do not disagree with the member that there are broader applications of the technology as well as just in education, that does have a major Economic Development spin to it.

The minister is absolutely accurate. Government is dealing with it. It is on our agenda. It is very much the interest of many of our members who represent rural Manitoba. I have a little more confidence though than the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray), when she says that the time is almost urgent. It has to be dealt with, but I think we do have a number of years to deal with it. There are other issues within education, with economic activ ity, with decen tralization of government. It is a total package of activit ies.

It just is not the responsibil ity of the Department of Education to make sure that our ru ral communities and our northern and remote communi ties stay alive. It is a part of government planning, part of gove rnment strategy and the Department of Education will play a major role. The question of having MTS involved: yes, they are. I hope the member, though, is not asking or maybe she is asking MTS to subsidize in a major way this whole educational program.

If she is, then let us hear her put that position forward, because they may be challenged on some of the charges that they are putting forward for the services that they are going to be asked to deliver. I do not think, I hope she is not saying, that they should be asked to subsidize it. If they have exce ss capacity within their system and are not selling it into the communities, that is one thing, but if they have other opportunit ies to sell the excess capacity, then there is a competition.

The bottom line is though-the question is: Is she suggesting that-and I do not think she is-MTS should subsidize this program? If that is the case, then let her say so. Again, it has to be part of an overall rural economic activity, of which education plays a very important role in comb ination with other activ ities that are going on. I, quite frankly, am proud of this government's role in trying to revitalize a lot of the communi ties. Let me just speak about northern Manitoba for a few minutes.

We have spent a considerable amount of money on a Northern Economic Development Commission of which the whole picture came from the gr ass roots of the people of no rthern Manitoba-[interjection] We ll, I have to get a glass of water for the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) . She is choking and we should maybe-1 do not know how much water it would take though. In fairness though, the bottom line is, and she is scoffing I guess at the work that was done by the Northern Economic Development Commission. Well, I think that is a little bit unfair.

There is a whole complex group of recomm endations that have come forward from northern Manitoba of which education is a major part of it, resource extraction and development is a major part of it, use of the hydroelectric is a major generator of activity. There is a broad range of activ ities that have come forward and recomm endations have come forward from the communi ties. Education is a major part of it. The Minister of Education has taken the lead with the Roblin comm ission in looking at how does this whole area of distance education, where we are at today.

These will all be pieces of information and valuable documen ts that will add to the basic platform for the people of Manitoba-

3780 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANIT OBA June 3, 19 93 pnterjection] Well, the member for Wolseley again makes some comment about the next election. if she is honest with herself, is she not thinking about the next election? She is sitting here as if 1 would be the only one thinking of the next election. I am not thinking of the next election at all. I am thinking about, Mr. Deputy Chairper son and colleagues, the edu cation and the future of the people of Manitoba. That is where it is at and the development of this province.

Education is a very major component of it, and so I say, with respect to the member for Wolseley, I think that she, if she were fair, would say that the Northern Economic Development Commission probably will provide som e go od ideas [interjection] We now are being interrupted by the memb er for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) who partici pated in distance education. The problem is he was so far away from it, he did not get any, that is how distant he was. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. * (1 210 ) Point of Order Ms.

Friesen: On a point of order, I think there is some gall there in a minister who is fili bustering these Estimates of his own minister. He is talking about-who to talk about the interruption of my colleague. I believe that the member wanted to speak on distance education briefly, and I believe that the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray) was asking questions on distance education. The minister took the opportunity to make comme nts upon various memb ers around this table. I do not find that very appropriate. I think it changed the nature of the discussion which we were having.

The minister feels it appropriate to speak upon people's facial expressions-- Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable member for Wolseley did not have a point of order. *** Mr. Downey: I apologize if the member is so sensitive. I hope I did not in any way personally make any commen ts that would offend anyone. It was not my intention to do so. Anyway, the point that I am making is that I think progress is being made on distance education. I think it is part of a packa ge, a government strategy.

It is to support the youth of our society, to make sure they have a broad range of opportunities that, in fact, may not be available to them if it were not developed and expanded in the way in which it is being done. I thank you, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, and I think the mini ster had a response to a specific question of the member for Cresce ntwood (Ms. Gray). Mrs. Vodrey: Just to add a few commen ts to those put forward by my colleague who I think has very well described the very wide interes t by our government in the area of distance education, and I have talked about that in my previous answers.

In terms of action, I can just remind the member that we did put into professional development through our funding for mula funding for PO and distance education. Also, I would say, and the member may know this, that the whole development of distance education really must be integrated into educa tional delivery as well as funding for it. But in the funding area, I can tell the member that the Education Finance Advisory Committee who has been working now sinc e the-from the development of the new Ed funding form ula, will be looking at that at their next meeting and they consider it to be an important area.

In terms of the professional development for distance education, and just in terms of use of distance educati on, teachers have been using distance ed for prof essional development and they have used that as a means of reducing costs for those, particularly in the curriculum implementation sessions for prof essional development. Also, with the interactive distance education satell ite deli very, the memb er asks ab out application outside of the Department of Education.

Recently, in the recent Health Education workshops in May '93, they were deliver ed by Distance Education to over 40 locations across rural and northern Manitoba. So teachers were able to receive their workshops in their home-school sites. Hon. Linda Mcintosh (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I just have a couple of items that have particular interest to me and I apprec iate the opportunity that all members around this table have to ask questions of the minister because we have constituents and consti tuents' concerns as well.

I also would like to indicate that while perhaps people raise points of order for commen ts that are made into the microphone, points of order could also be raised for comm ents that are made around the

June 3, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 3781 table by members opposite as we try to put forward legitimate questions. I would like to indicate first of all that I really would like to commend the Minister of Education (Mrs. Vodrey) for having handled some very difficult issues that have come up for education in Manitoba. I know we have new things on the horizon. My two points of interest will be distance education and the International Baccalau reate which we have just discussed. I understand that at the request of the member-1 unde rstand at the reques t of the member for Wolseley (Ms.

Friesen), we are having a broad discussion [interjection] Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. Point of Order Mr. John Plohma n (Daup hin): Mr. Dep ut y Chairperson, for the record, I am raising this point that it is extremely unconventional to have ministers questioning their colleagues in the legisla tive comm ittee. It has been done on occasion in the past, rarely, and I want it noted, as a point, that this is very unconventional practice and we object to it and the record will show that. Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): On the same point of order, the member for Dauphin (Mr.

Plohman) can complain or put on the record, he can do it until he is blue in the face, we could care less. The reality is we all represent Manitobans. We all represent students in the public school system and we all have the right indeed, the duly right elected, to be here and to ask questions of our minister and of our government. I dare say-[i nterjection] Of course, it is the people's government, duly elected I say to the member for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman). Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I have been in opposition for a number of years. I remember the member himself addressing ques tions to his Treasury bench members.

We are not plowing a new turf here. We are indeed doing what is our parliamentary right to do. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. I would like to thank the honourable members for their advice, but the honourable members did not have a point of order. *** Mrs. Mcintosh: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I wonder if the bullying techniques being put across the table could be called out of order and allow me to proceed with my question. Point of Order Mr.

Plohman: On a point of order, it is obvious that the cabinet procedures are falling apart, that they cannot even question their own colleagues in cabinet to get things straight before they get to the comm ittee. Mr. Deputy Chairperson: Order, please. The honourable member does not have a point of order. *** Mrs. Mc intosh: Mr. Deputy Chair pe rson , I appreciate the silence at the table now so I can hear my own voice.

As I was saying, there have been a lot of very difficult issues that have come forward that affect all of us who are interested in education, all of us who have particular ties with edu cation in terms of our background, in terms of our ongoing interests and concerns. I particularly wanted to respond to an issue that was raised by the opposition because I feel it was ver y important, particularly important for my constituents.

It was a point that was raised in questioning that has now been put up for discussion at this comm ittee which I would like to enter into because it has been raised by discussion for the opposition. I feel that I, too, have a right to make comment on the issue raised by the opposition which will affect my constituents very directly. We have two schools in my consti tuency, and I was directly involved at the time with both of those schools when the International Baccalau reate program was introduced to those schools. Indeed, I was a key player at that time.

I was quite interested in the commen ts raised by the member for Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) asking about this program, particula rly interested since with our division we have made valiant efforts for many, many years to have that program officially and formally recognized by the Department of Education and steadfastly were refused that recognition. I wish to thank the current government for finally recognizing the I. B. program and giving that opportunity to students throughout Manitoba to have their program recognized.

3782 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA June 3, 19 93 The particular point that I would like to draw to the minister's attention was you had made comment of the statistics, Madam Minister, about the number of students who were in the fuii i.B. program, versus those who were taking the part-time 1.8. program. It is an interesting trend.

I would like to indic ate on behalf of my constituents that one of the things they are very grateful for is the opportunity to take the partial program because while the full program inspires those well-r ounded students who have a broad-based ability to learn, the partial program enables those who are specifically skilled in, say, language arts, to take the higher-level learning program there and the regular cur ricula for those areas where they have an average ability.

So I would like that ability to mix and match to meet consumers' needs, and I would like to indicate that is reflective of the views of my constituents, for your information, as you continue work in that area. The matter of distance education is another that is of particular interest to me. My division had participated, as I think you are aware, with some preliminary work in technology and electronics in terms of getting programs of learning to people in isola ted areas.

The one piece of feedback information that I received, which I would like to share with you, is that there are two approaches that could be taken.

One is sort of a piecemeal ad hockery approach, and the other is to develop an overall plan and then follow that plan. * (1 220) I believe that you are, from your responses to questions made earlier, on the latter course, which I think will prove ultimately to be the best course to embark upon, because you then do not have the risk of having an ad hoc decision made which looks as if it would fit into an overall plan and then discover later that it does not indeed fit into an overall plan.

So I wish to share those comments with you in response to the issues that have been raised here, and if you have a response to those I would appreciate hearing it. If not, then I turn it back to the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray) who had indicated she wanted to speak. Mrs. Vodrey: Jus t a quick response to the member. 1 thank her very much for the information that she has given me and also the views of her constituency regarding the ability to do the certificate or the diploma program in the I. B., and also the sense that distance education is, in fact, and should be a planned and integrated approach. Ms.

Gray: Well, I frankly do not have difficulty with the minister sitting here and commenting on distance education. I am actually quite delighted that we have the Minister of Consu mer and Corporate Affairs (Mrs. Mcintosh), the Minister of Culture, Heri tage and Citizenship (Mrs. Mitchelson), the Minister of Governmen t Services (Mr. Ducharme), the Minister of Rnance (Mr. Manness), the Minister responsible for Northern and Native Affairs (Mr. Downey), and the Minister of Education (Mrs.

Vodrey) here, who have all obviously, if not spoken into the record , have nodded their heads when the Minister the Edu cation has spoken about the im portance of dis tance ed ucation, the importance of the new technology available, and in fact how high it is on the agenda of this particular government. Now, I want to respond quickly to the Minister of Native and Northern Affairs. I am not suggesting that necessarily Manitoba Telephone System should subsidize Distance Education.

I certainly am suggesting, however, that as a group of cabinet ministers and as government, they have the opportunity and the resources and the influence to actually make some decisions on how best this type of technology can be moved into rural and northern Manitoba, whether it is for education or whether it is for other areas. But I still have the same question, and I will direct it to the Minister of Educati on, but I cert ainly would not have difficulty if other ministers answer it, because it is a simple question-oh, and I am glad we have the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Derkach) here as well.

My question to the minister as a Minister of Education but also as a member of cabinet is: Given that the indications are that this whole area, this whole technology field is high on the agenda of cabinet, I simply want to know the process and how this issue is being addressed by cabinet, by which departments, and what is the process? A very simple question. Mrs. Vodrey: I have given the answer a number of times. The issue is an important one, it is being considered by members of this government.

We are looking at the implications, we are looking at the importance, and so it is having a very full discussion within government.

June 3, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 3783 Ms. Gray: If the minister-! know she feels that she has answered it for me a number of times, and perhaps it could be my difficult y as a listener, but if perhaps she could-1 simply want a little more detail in her answer rather than using generalities, such as implementation and it is in process and we are looking at it. Could she be specific about what without giving away cabi net secr ets-what exactly has been discussed in regards to this technology? What is occurring, particularly with the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System (Mr.

Findlay) , and where is this government at in terms of this technology and using it as an opportunity to assist not only in distance education, but in the area of economic development as well? Mrs. Vodrey: The member knows that we have received the report on distance education. That report will allow us to look at the recomme ndations of the people who worked on that report. The report was done by a representative group of Manitobans, and now school divisions are looking at that report, and we are looking at in government.

Each ministry has to look at what their part would be as we look at an integrated process of distance education. I would say, too, that it is an important initiative for our gove rnment and tha t all memb ers of government have had an opportunity to be well brought up to date on the issues of distance education and, as ministers, look particularly at exactly what their part may be. I can tell the member again that the issue has been seen as an important one across all of government. Ms.

Gray: Can the minister tell us, has that task force report been specifically sent over to the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Telephone System (Mr. Findl ay) ? If so, what has been requested of that minister in regard to the sending of the report? Mrs. Vodrey: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the report itself has been discu ssed by government, and it will have a public release very shortly. So I am not sure if that helps the member in terms of exactly where the issues are in terms of the public, but, again, we have discus sed it as a government. It will also have public release. Ms.

Gray: Has the minister asked specifically for feedback from the Minister responsible for Manitoba Telephone System and/or his staff, and when has she asked for commen ts from him? I mean, knowing governments and how we work in bureaucracies, when information and materials and reports are sent from one division to another or one department

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-4-76
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 4th hansardpdf 76.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	229e3d12b7933ecb87f5289c8da346e23c6197b3

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