LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 10 May, 19 82 Time - 2:00 p.m. MR. CLERK, Jack Reeves: It is my duty to infor m the House that Mr . Speake r is unavoidably absent and would ask the Deputy Speaker to take the Chair of this House in acco rdance with the Statutes. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Deputy Speaker. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, Mr. Jerry T. Storie (Flin Flon): Presenting Petitions ... NON-PARTISAN STATEMENT MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Ministe r of Health. HON. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): Mr.

Speake r, I'd like to ask leave of the House to make a non-pa rtisan statement or announcement at this time, if I may. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Leave? (Agreed) MR. DESJARDINS: Mr . Deputy Speaker, I wish to confi rm the news that the Speaker suffered a slight stroke on the weekend while in Ottawa and he is expected to remain in an Ottawa area hospital until Wednesday at the ea rliest. Fo rtunately, Mr s. Walding was with him when this happened and she is able to stay with him and she is with him now. I'm sure that all the members would like to join me in wishing Mr. Walding a complete and early recovery. Thank you.

Sir. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Petitions . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees .. . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honou ra ble Atto rney-General. HON. ROLAND PENNER (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, as I pr eviously advised members of the House, I have been discussing pr oblems related to drunken and impaired drivers with senio r officials in my depa rt­ ment and others. My depa rtment recognizes that this is a very serious social and legal pr oblem and that the incidence of impaired driving is inc reasing.

The statistics for con­ victions under the various sections of the Criminal Code, which deal with impai red driving, show an increase between 1980 and 1981, Sir, of 26 pe rcent and yet, it may well be the case that the numbe r app rehended may represent just the tip of the ice­ be rg. It is likely the case that only a small fraction of those who drive while impai red are arrested. A brief pr esented to me by the Citizens Against Impaired Driving CAID ) estimates that ther e may be as many as 542,000 instances of impai red night-time driving in Manitoba in each year.

While I'm not pr e­ pa red to accept that figure without further research, I do accept the organization's view and the view of my officials that the pr oblem is one of immense pr opor ­ tions. It seems clear from such figures that the main pr oblem is pr evention and detection rather than simply one of punishment. In order to investigate ways of significantly reducing the incidence of impai red driving I have today appointed a committee to be chai red by Mr. J. D. Montgome ry, Q. C., General Counsel in my depa rtment.

Other members of the committee include, Deputy Chief John Urchenko and Sa rgeant Rober t Taylor, both of the City of Winnipeg Police; David Cruickshank, the Executive Director of the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba; Mr. Ki rkpa­ trick, Chief Inspector of the Liquor Cont rol Commis­ sion of Manitoba; Larry Jocelyn, of the Manitoba Hotel Keepers' Association, and Dr. John Bock of the Manitoba Committee on Crime Prevention. 2331 This committee will examine innovative ways of pr eventing persons from driving while under the influence of alcohol or a drug to an extent which impai rs their ability to drive.

The committee will be examining such things as the poss ibility of installing mini-b reathalize rs in licensed pr emises to enable depa rting guests to check their own levels of impair ­ ment. I've had several othe r suggestions from con­ ce rned citizens and these will be tu rned over to the committee. I invite citizens of Manitoba gene rally to pass suggestions along to the committee. While expe­ rience, Sir, shows that punishment by itself does not deal with the pr oblem effectively, nevertheless, dete r­ rence does play some role.

In this connection I have examined the pr esent policy of this depar tment with respect to when persons involved in a second occur­ rence of driving while impai red should be cha rged as second offenders. The pr esent pr ovisions of the Crim­ inal Code pr ovide mandator y jail penalties for second and subsequent convicti ons. If a pers on is cha rged and convicted as a second offender, the re is a min­ imum of 14 days in jail.

If a person, and that is the law under the Criminal Code as it pr esently is, if a person is cha rged and convicted as a subsequent offender, that is three or more convictions, the Code pr ovides a minimum of th ree months in jail. In 1979 the then Atto rney-General adopted a policy which called for a pe rson involved in a second occu rrence to be cha rged as a second offender only if the second occurrence takes place any time within one year of the first occu r­ rence. I have had several submissions on the need to mor e severely limit the so-called grace period.

After studying all such submi ssions ca refully, I have today inst ructed Crown Attorneys to charge a person as a second offender if that person is involved in a second occu rrence any time within two yea rs. In addition, a pers on will be charged as a subsequent offender, and that is, liable to a minimum th ree months impr isonment if the person has been con­ victed on two or more occasions within the pr evious two years. Representations have been made to me calling for persons to be cha rged as second offenders if the second occu rrence takes place any time within five

Monday, 10 May, 19 82 years of the first conviction. I have, after very careful consideration, rejected this suggestion after review­ ing the policy in other provinces in Canada and after considering the negative effects of mandatory impri­ sonment. However, I wish to make it clear that this policy, the one I'm announcing today, will be reviewed in a year's time and, if necessary, the grace period may be further limit ed.

While these are guidelines only, in structions to Crown Attorneys will carry the direction that any authorization to deviate from the guidelines must be obtained from either the Director of Prosecutions or the Senior Crown Attorney of the City of Winnipeg or the Senior Crown Attorney for the Western Judicial District. So the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba has recently expanded its impaired driving program for second offender s.

This program, let me explain, requires a second offender who wishes to get his license or her licens e back to be referred to the Alco­ holism Foundation where that offender is interviewed by a counsellor. The counsellor determines whether or not the person has a drinking problem and whether or not the driver will be required to attend a course presented by the Alcoholism Foundation as a condi­ tion for obtaining a driver's license. This course is designed to assist problem drinkers.

Such persons will be further required to attend classes where films are shown. discussions held on alcoholism and its related problems and professional counselling is available. It was recently announced that the Alcohol­ ism Foundation has expanded its impaired driver program to centres throughout the province. Resour­ ces are not yet available to provide such programs for first offenders but the Committee, Chaired by Mr. J.D . Montgomery, has been requested to look into a sim­ ilar program for first offenders.

Sir, I have discussed the question of sentences imposed on drunken drivers with Chief Provincial Court Judge, Harold Gyles. Judge Gyles advises me that provincial judges who do keep this aspect of the law under cons tant review share the concerns of the public and are currently re-examining sentencing pol­ icy in this area with a view to stiffening penalties. It is my hope, Sir, that the measures announced today will be effective and will bring home to the public our determination, the determination of the Government of Manitoba to explore every avenue to reduce the amount of drunken driving. MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G.W.J. GERRY MERCIER (St. Norbert): Yes, Mr. Speaker, we on this side welcome the announcement of the Honourable Attorney-General and concur with the concern with respect to drunken and impaired driving. I note the membership of the committee which the Attorney-General has appointed and con­ gratulate him on the quality of the membership of the committee. Mr. Speaker, the Attorney-General referred to a policy which we developed in 1979. I do point out for the record, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that prior to developing that policy there was no policy at all.

That policy was developed as the Attorney­ General has done now in reviewing the existing other 2332 policies and other Provincial Governments. I have no disagreement with the change in that policy. Mr. Speaker, we note the work of the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba and we would bring to the Attorney-General's attention his comment that resources are not yet available to expand the pro­ gra ms. The Manitoba Liquor Control Commiss ion this year will probably be earning up to $100 million in profits for the Provincial Government, Mr.

Speaker, and it may be that the government should consider, in view of those profits, allocating sufficient resources to the Alcoholism Foundation of Manitoba to imple­ ment and expand their programs and perhaps any other programs that are developed through submis­ sions from the public to the committee he has appointed and following upon recommendat ions from that committee. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Notices of Motion INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. VIC SCHROEDER (Rossmere) introduced Bill No. 29,

An Act to amend The Civil Service Superannuation Act. (R ecommended by the Lieutenant-Governo r). MR. PENNER introduced Bill No. 30, The Legislative Assembly Management Commission Act.

Loi sur la commission de regime de l'a ssemblee legislative. (Recommended by the Lieutenant-Governor); and Bill No. 31, The Child Custody Enforcement Act.

Loi sur !'execution des ordonnances de garde. (Recom­ mended by the Lieutenant-Gover nor). MR. RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood) introduced Bill No. 34,

An Act to Incorporate "The Menno Simons Collegiate. " MR. PHIL EYLER (River East) introduced Bill No. 35,

An Act to amend

An Act to incorporate The Menno­ nite Brethren Church of Manitoba. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Before moving to Oral Questions there are a number of groups in the gallery. I direct the members' attention to my left where we have a group of 30 students of Grade 5 standing from the Cranberry Portage Elementary School under the direction of Mr. Neufeld. These students belong to the constituency of the Honourable Member for Flin Flon. There is as well, a group of 50 students from the West Kildonan Collegiate. These students are of Grade 11 standing and are under the direction of Mr. Butler and Mr.

Hudson and are represented by the Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. There is also a group of 38 students of Grade 9 standing from the Arborg Collegiate under the direc­ tion of Mr. Jacobson and are represented by the Hon­ ourable Minister of Agriculture. On behalf of all the members, we welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member

Monday, 10 May, 19 82 for Turtle Mountain. MR. A. BRIAN RANSOM (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Attorney-General in his capacity as House Leader. In our request for information over the past two months, the Opposition has placed a number of Orders for Return, written questions and have placed questions with Ministers during their Estimates. At the moment there are a number of those items outstanding and I wonder if the Government House Leader could advise when we might expect answers. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Govern­ ment House Leader. MR.

PENNER: With respect to any oral question which was taken as notice and which, in the view of the Opposition House Leader has not yet been ans­ wered, I would request his assistance, in fact it is necessary in identifying any specific question. I have, in fact, as I announced about three weeks ago, been attempting to identify any question which has not yet been answered so that I can speak to the appropriate Minister and invite an early reply.

Part of the difficulty, and I am just stating this as a matter of fact, is that a number of questions were asked on several occasions, sometimes in slightly altered words, and it appears on investigating or at least on researching Hansard that they indeed, have been answered. So that if, let me repeat, Sir, there are specific questions in the view of any member of the Opposition through the Opposition House Leader, still waiting for an answer, I'm talking about oral ques­ tions, I would welcome receiving additional notice of them so that an answer may be given at the earliest opportunity.

With respect to Orders for Return, again, I have recently met with officials in my department in trying to identify any that have not yet been answered. It is my understanding, Sir, that any written addresses not answered appear on on the Order Paper every two weeks and the next time they appear I assure the Opposition House Leader that a double check will be made and that, as soon as possible, an effort will be made to answer.

I do know that some of the questions that were taken on written notice required considera­ ble research having to do with the number of con­ tracts, the number of Civil Service hirings and firings, and that these are being worked on and that staff are preparing answers. And I wish to assure the Opposi­ tion, through the Opposition House Leader, Sir, that the Orders will be answered shortly. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, with respect to the ques­ tions that have been placed with Ministers during their Estimates, it was the assumption of the Opposi­ tion that when a Minister agreed to answer a question that the Minister would make note of it and subse­ quently answer it. If that's not the case then we will have to place some of the questions again. Mr. Speaker, a further question to the House Leader, the Attorney-General, with respect to bills. When questioned earlier the Government House Leader said that there were yet 18 to 20 bills to come, I believe.

We have had some introduced; we will be into the Budget Debate shortly which will not end until after the 20th of May, would it be the Government House Leader's intention to introduce any heavy leg­ islation after that point? MR. PENNER: Heavy legislation. Mr. Speaker, I would have thought that they are all heavy in terms of their importance and their fundamental importance to Manitoba society, but I will take that on notice, if I may, to just cheque what's now presently on the Order Paper.

I am, in fact, reviewing with Chief Legis­ lative Counsel what's up the pipe and will discuss it, either privately with the Opposition House Leader or make an announcement in the House. But, I don't think there is anything additional to those things that have been announced in terms of Acts; mostly what will be coming up will be in the form of a relatively minor housekeeping amendments. MR. RANSOM: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

In the September 16th edition of the Winnipeg Sun headed, "Pawley Pledges Interest Relief," the quote is "The NOP Government, upon election to the Gov­ ernment of Manitoba, will immediately, at its first Ses­ sion of the Legislature, pass interest rate moratorium legislation so that no businessman will have to lose his business because of ruinous policy of the Gov­ ernment of Ottawa. " Mr. Speaker, my question to the Government House leader, is debt moratorium legislation one of those pieces yet to be introduced? MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, not necessarily. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR.

DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could, with leave, make a correction to the First Reading of the Bill, just in terms of the wording. The Order Paper and the printed First Reading indicated that Bill 34 was

An Act to Incorporate the "Men no Simons Collegiat e. " It should read the "Menno Simons College," which is post-secondary. 2333 MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, in view of the Attorney­ General's answer, "not necessarily," can I ask the Attorney-General then, has legislation been prepared so that should the government judge it is necessary to introduce it that it might be done on short notice? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, no. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker,

Monday, 10 my question is to the Honourable Minister of Com­ munity Services. I would ask him, Sir, whether he has received a report on the circumstances surrounding the death of an 18-month-old girl last week in a Win­ nipeg Children's Aid Society foster home? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I can advise the honourable member that I have requested a written report on this matter; one is being prepared and I hopefully will get it later today, but thus far I have not received it. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister advise the House whether the home in question was oper­ ated by the Winnipeg Children's Aid Society or whether it was a child-caring agency or child-caring institution that operated the home, or whether in fact, it was a private home? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I will have to take that under advisement, I am not clear on which category the home fell into. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister whether he has received any requests, including recent requests, for a review of all Winnipeg Children's Aid Society foster homes and foster parents? MR. EVANS: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, as the honourable member knows, this is a very very difficult area. But I have had a request recently for a meeting and I believe we have one set up tomorrow at some time with a group of persons who are involved - not involved but concerned - with this particular case and situations that may be similar to this one. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary on this subject.

With respect to the former ward of the Children's Aid Society who had requested a copy of his file, and in connection with which the Minister instructed the Children's Aid Society to make that file available to him, can the Minister advise the House whether that file has been made available to that indi­ vidual; whether the Minister has placed an order for that file, or ordered that that file be embargoed, or whether that file is still in the possession of the Child­ ren's Aid Society? MR. EVANS: Well, Mr.

Speaker, we have requested the Children's Aid Society to forward it, give it to the individual and I would assume that that will take place. However, as the member may know from read­ ing the newspapers and so forth, the Executive Direc­ tor of the Children's Aid Society of Winnipeg has asked for a meeting with me respecting this particular matter. But I would assume that the report will be given to that individual in due course if it hasn't been done already. MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, excuse me, I would like to ask one more supplementary.

Can the Minister advise the House of where that file is at the present 1982 time? Is the file still in the records of the Winnipeg Children's Aid Society? MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I thought I had ans­ wered that question just previously. I would imagine that they would wish to keep a copy regardless but as I indicated, we had requested them to turn the copy over to the individual. I would assume that either has been done or is in the process of being done. Let me take that question as notice and perhaps I can come up with a more definitive answer tomorrow for the honourable member. MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. HARRY GRAHAM (Virden): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minis­ ter of Transportation. Over the weekend the Professor Gillson and his Committee that is studying the proposals on changes in grain transportation indicated they're considering a proposal to tie the proposed increases in rail trans­ portation to a corresponding increase in the export price of Canadian grains. I would ask the Minister of Transportation if he concurs with the philosophy of that proposal. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Transportation. HON.

SAMUEL USKIW (Lac du Bonnet): Well, Mr. Speaker, I believe that Dr. Gilson is attempting to resolve the impasse of concensus on that very issue within the prairie region. I believe what he's searching for with that suggestion is a bit of a compromise position from at least that group that is advocating no shift whatever. I think it's fair to say, Mr. Speaker, that at one time I had made the observation that if farmers received a compensatory guarantee for their produc­ tion along with the railways being guaranteed com­ pensatory rates for transportation - that might not be a bad arrangement.

I don't know to what extent the price relationship is going to have to transportation costs in the mind of Dr. Gilson but certainly we'd be prepared to look at that one, Mr. Speaker. MR. GRAHAM: Thank you. A supplementary ques­ tion for the Honourable Minister. From the remarks of the Honourable Minister, am I to receive the impres­ sion that the Minister is now changing his stand, that the Crow rate is not negotiable at all, or is the Minister reconsidering that stand at the present time? MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I don't know that I should repeat what I said before and what I had just said a moment ago and that is that farmers are not people that want to hang onto something because of tradition. Farmers are concerned with the problem of being able to stay in business. The key to that, Mr. Speaker, is that they have some assurances and gua­ rantees that the transportation costs aren't going to remove that assurance. Now, unless we tie transpor­ tation costs to farm income or the ability to pay those costs, it becomes an impossible situation. So, Mr. Speaker, while there is room to look at that opportu- 2334

Monday, 10 May, 1982 nity or that proposal, I think unless one saw that prop­ osal, one wouldn't want to commit oneself. MR. GRAHAM: A final supplementary. Will the Minis­ ter then take under advisement and consider the pos­ sibility of negotiating on behalf of the farmers of Mani­ toba, the proposal that has been suggested by Professor Gilson and back away from his previous stand of refusing to talk to anyone about Crow except on his terms? MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Speaker, the first thing that I would want to remind the Member for Virden is that his premise is wrong.

The Government of Manitoba has not refused to enter into discussions on this issue. It is the Government of Canada, Mr. Speaker, who announced the decision as a decision having already been made and also with that statement said that they would not be interfacing with the provincial govern­ ments on that issue, but that they are appointing Dr. Gilson to interface with the industry interests.

The governments of the prairies were indeed not involved in that process so we are involved only to the extent that we are able to provide help and information to those that have a concern with respect to that issue, but we have not been invited by the Government of Canada or by Dr. Gilson to participate in those discussions. MR. GRAHAM: A further supplementary. Is the Min­ ister now turning his back on the National Farmers' Union? MR. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I don't know what it is that the member is alluding to. We have taken a position on this issue, Mr.

Speaker, which has the primary concern of the agricultural producers of this pro­ vince. Our effort in this area has been to try to assure some degree of protection; something that they have enjoyed for a good number of years, in fact, all the way since 1897. Mr. Speaker, if we're going to have a fundamental change in this question, obviously we ought to make certain that the adverse effects of that change are minimized on those who are least able to protect themselves from the marketplace. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin-Russell): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Acting First Minister of the House. Mr. Speaker, filling station operators, businessmen, women, farmers, private citizens, oth­ ers insist today that I stand in my place and ask the First Minister of this province's government if they're prepared to support those Manitobans who are driv­ ing across Saskatchewan and buying their gas for 6.4 cents or 26.8 cents per gallon cheaper than they can buy it in this province. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. MURIEL SMITH (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, there's no such plan afoot at this point in time. MR.

McKENZIE: I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if the Acting First Minister and the government are proposing any memos or papers to advise the citizens of this prov­ ince that they support those citizens who are going across to Saskatchewan and buying their gasoline at those excellent prices. Are they prepared to stand up and tell the people of this province therefore ... MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order please. The Honour­ able Minister is prepared to answer the question. She's been asked the question. I would hope that everyone would give her the courtesy of listening to the answer. MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, it's our understanding that interprovincial trade is an open activity. I think we would be the laughing stock of the entire country if we made some particular provision for a group of Mani­ toba residents who happen to be near the border of Saskatchewan . I mean, after gas prices, what next, beer? MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary of the Honourable Acting First Minister.

Are we to understand from the remarks of the Honourable Min­ ister that this government has no position or no statement to make to the people of this province whether, in fact, they support and it's fair ball for people to go across and our business to be phoning me since early morning, along the border of the pro­ vince, and wondering what position this government's going to take on this matter. MRS. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, it seems to me the ques­ tion is suddenly shifted from what we're going to do for the residents who are near the Saskatchewan border to what we're going to do for the residents that live throughout Manitoba. Our whole program is designed to give a fair deal to the people of Manitoba. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for LaVerendrye. MR. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (la Verendrye): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. A question to the same Minister.

In light of the different programs that have been put in place by other jurisdictions, namely Saskatchewan and British Columbia, when they faced similar prob­ lems at their border towns with regard to the selling of gasoline by small retailers, and I point out to the Minister that areas such as Flin Flon and Creighton, where this problem is going to become a real big problem for any operator in Manitoba, is the govern­ ment planning any programs of tax rebates to opera­ tors along the border so that the Manitoba people will be in a position to make sure that they will be competi­ tive with their neighbours maybe only a mile away?

MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. 2335 MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, the questions asked are important. There is a concern with respect to what happens at the border. I have instructed my depart­ ment to investigate what, in fact, has happened between other provinces where similar difficulties

Monday, 10 May, 19 82 have existed in the past and he's brought up the example of Lloydminster. We are expecting to come up with that report fairly soon, and once we do, we will initiate whatever policy decision we believe is neces­ sary, based on that report. MR. BANMAN: A supplementary question to the Min­ ister of Finance then.

I wonder if he is reviewing the system of phasing in, in other words, in different zones, phasing in different tax rates to make sure that even people that are along major arteries such as the Trans-Canada Highway, areas such as Virden, run­ ning west of Virden, that those people will not be adversely affected to any great extent by this particu­ lar program - in other words, that the businesses along the borders will not go bankrupt because of the difference of 26-cents-a-gallon tax in Saskatchewan versus Manitoba. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Speaker, what we are going to be doing is getting that report and we will do what we can to ensure fairness for Manitobans and to ensure that we will receive the kind of tax from gaso­ line and diesel fuel that is reasonable under the circumstances. MR. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Attorney-General.

In light of his statement today, I wonder if the Minister could inform the House, since the statistics show an increased number of people that are driving while impaired, and I think the increase among teenagers is fairly alarm­ ing, is the government proposing this Session to bring in legislation which would see the legal drinking age in Manitoba raised from 18 to 19? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney­ General. MR. PENNER: No. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question to the Minister of Natural Resources responsible for Water Resources. Would the Minister of Natural Resources, Mr. Speaker, be prepared to meet with the representative group of some 250 peti­ tion signers, people of the southwest corner of the province who are requesting a diversion around the Hartney Dam, would the Minister be prepared to meet this afternoon with a representative group of people who have had their valuable agricultural lands being drowned out? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. AL MACKLING, (SI. James): Mr.

Speaker, sub­ ject to the requirements of the House, yes. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm indeed pleased that the Minister is prepared to meet with a representative group if a Page would take a copy of the petition with those 250 names. 2336 Second question, Mr. Speaker. Would the Minister of Natural Resources, if the proposal is somewhat reasonable in his estimation or in his department's estimation, could we see immediate action on the resolution of the flooding of farmers or the removal of portions of the dam or a cut around the side of that dam, Mr. Speaker, to alleviate some of the problems in the Souris River?

MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I will be prepared to meet and to listen and to recommend a course of action that is reasonable. It may be that I might be persuaded that the past actions of the previous administration, in not listening to that group, they may have made a mistake. I will listen and I'll judge the matter on its merits. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. GERARD LECUYER (Radisson): During the weekend I met a number of my constituents at a func­ tion and, in particular, one whose wife is awaiting elective surgery, and I was wondering, Mr.

Minister, if any new developments have taken place with regard to the negotiations with the MMA? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, the information that I can place in front of the House is that the MMA has requested an increase of $31, 160 - that's an average for the doctor's getting over $20,000.00. This would require $44.5 million and it would increase the aver­ age fees of a doctor to $126, 160 per year and the Commission has on the table an increase of $9,000 per doctor, the same, those averaging $20,000 or more.

This would require $12.6 million additional and this would increase the average fees, revenue, for $104,000 per year. I thought that the question was, Mr. Speaker, is there anything new with the negotiations? If that's not the question . . . MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minis­ ter of Finance or the Minister of Labour. Could he indicate what the first demands of the MG EA are? Mr. Speaker, the government is apparently in the mood for providing a lot of information to the House.

I asked the Minister of Labour if he could indicate what the first demand of the Manitoba Government Employees Association is? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, now that he got the marbles out of his mouth I could understand it. As the Minister of Health was answering the other question I was just musing that $9,000 amounts to more than the total amount that people on the minimum wage will receive at $4.00 an hour. The increase that's on the

Monday, 10 May, 19 82 table is more, in total - just the increase - than what a person on the minimum wage makes in total, after the $4 an hour minimum wage comes into effect. With respect to the MGA first proposal, that was so far back that I don't recall the number but what I can say about the MGEA and government negotiations is that certainly the MGEA has stepped a long way back from their original position. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Ministr of Energy and Mines. HON. WILSON PARASIUK (Transcona): Mr.

Speaker, on May 5th I was asked a question by the Honourable Member for Lakeside, if I was aware of current layoffs within the Tantalum Mining operation and I'd like to answer him that on Wednesday, May 5th - the day he asked the question - at a Board Meeting of the Tanta­ lum Mining Corporation of Canada Limited in Toronto, representatives of a minority 25 percent sharehold­ ing, attending the Board meeting were informed that a five-week summer shutdown would be necessary because of existing high inventories and poor markets for tantalum.

The company normally has an inventory of approximately 30,000 to 40,000 pounds of tanta­ lum. The present inventory level is in excess of 200,000 pounds and it is expected, even with the tem­ porary summer shutdown, that by December of 1982 the inventory will be approximately 300,000 pounds; the inventory in December would represent over one year's production if related to the level of sales pres­ ently being experienced this year, the December 1982 inventory would represent more than two years of sales, under normal sales circumstances the inven­ tory would represent approximately one year of sales.

Officials of the company feel because tantalum is a specialized commodity of high value with low volume of production that the stockpiling strategy will not impact adversely on the company when markets return to normal. The stockpiling strategy, along with timing the plant closure to coincide with the holiday period, is expected to minimize the impact on the employees. The shutdown was announced by com­ pany officials to the employees on Friday, May 7, 1982. There will be approxmiately 100 employees laid off from June 28 to August 2, 1982. On resumption of operation all employees are expected to be recalled. MR.

DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I thank the Honourable Minister for that answer and I would ask him a supplementary question as to the number of employees involved and a further question, as a sub­ stantial shareholder, although it is a minority share­ holding that Manitobans have, why that information was not offered to us in the Chamber at the same time that the announcements were being made in Toronto. MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, I did inform the member in my answer that 100 employees are being affected and, secondly, there was no announcement in Toronto on May 5 when the member asked the question; that was a discussion at the Board level by the majority membership of the Board, we do have a 25 percentage of that company. If it hadn't been for the previous government's inactivity and neglect in this respect we could have had over 50 percent interests in that com­ pany. Mr. Speaker, I do wish to inform the member that we are not the manager of that particular opera­ tion and, indeed, Mr.

Speaker, the employees were informed on Friday. I waited until such time as the employees were informed to answer the member with information that I got on Friday afternoon, which I took the opportunity of bringing into the House and raising in Question Period the first opportunity I had. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, just one simple supplemen­ tary question. Would 25 percent fewer employees have been laid off if we had 25 percent additional equity in Tantalum? MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, indeed, if we had 25 percent greater percentage of that company our divi­ dends over the last few years would have been much higher than they have been to date, Mr. Speaker, and we've enjoyed a very great improvement to our deficit position that we inherited from the Conservative Government. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. MR. USKIW: The other day the Member for St. Nor­ bert asked a question with respect to the timing of construction on the Perimeter Highway from Roblin Blvd. to Portage Avenue and my information is, Mr.

Speaker, that the contracts were awarded last year by the previous administration, and that the project will be completed within three or four weeks. The subse­ quent construction program undertaken by the City of Winnipeg was awarded after the contracts for the Provincial Government were awarded. So, Mr. Speaker, we're so well down the road with construc­ tion on this site that it doesn't appear to be practical to try to alter the

schedule of this project. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. 2337 MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Corrections. I would ask him whether he can confirm weekend media reports of laxity and inefficiency on the part of custodial staff at the Winnipeg Remand Centre? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I can't confirm that report. MR. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister con­ firm the presence of a letter allegedly written to the Free Press from two persons facing murder charges in the Remand Centre referring to, and charging, lax­ ity and inefficiency of the type mentioned, can he confirm the presence of that communication? MR. EVANS: I am aware of it as the honourable member is aware of it and I would expect to be getting a report on this shortly.

Monday, 10 May, 19 82 MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, has the Minister taken any action as a result of that report? Is the Minister dismissing that as a fictitious newspaper story or is he looking into the possibility that there is some actual substance to it? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, what I was indicating to the member is that we expect a report on this and when we see what the facts are we'll make a decision but we want to get the facts first. MR. SHERMAN: The Minister can't expect a report on it unless he's asked for a report on it.

Has the Minister asked for a report on that situation reported in a newspaper on the weekend, now some 48 hours ago? MR. EVANS: Mr. Speaker, I expect to have informa­ tion either later today or early tomorrow. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin- Russell. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister for Health. I wonder if the Minister of Health is now prepared to meet with Grandview and Gilbert Plains Hospital Boards, their applications for a meeting with the Minister have been deferred since November or October, I'm told.

Is he now prepared to sit down and meet with them? MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I gave the answer on that during my Estimates. MR. McKENZIE: I wonder, Mr. Speaker, would the Honourable Minister advise the House and these Boards why he refused to meet them until his Esti­ mates were on the table and, therefore, they didn't have a chance to debate their priorities. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker, the priorities and the decisions and the discussions are usually at the level of the Manitoba Health Services Commission and these people certainly had all the opportunity to discuss with the Commission and we went through all that with the member during my Estimates and the answer that I give would be the same today. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable House Leader. MR. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, would you please on Orders of the Day COMMITTEE CHANGE MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker, before Orders of the Day, I wonder if I could mak e a change in Public Utilities; the Member for Charleswood for the Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Govern­ ment House Leader. MR. PENNER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, on Orders of the Day, would you please call the Report Stage on Bill No. 9,

An Act to amend the Insurance Act? REPORT STAGE BILL NO. 9 -THE INSURANCE ACT MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Report Stage, shall the Report of the Law Amendments Committee with respect to Bill No. 9,

An Act to amend the Insurance Act, be concurred in? The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. GARY FILMON (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, firstly, I apologize for not having informed the Clerk on Friday of my intention to move the amendment. Is the proce­ dure that I should move the amendment now and then address the amendment? Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Virden THAT the proposed subsection 371 (2.1) of The Insurance Act as set out in

section 1 O of Bill 9,

An Act to amend the Insurance Act, be struck out and the following subsection substituted therefor: Restriction on issue of licences. 371

(2.1) The superintendent shall not issue a licence to a corporation whose head office is outside Canada. MOTION presented. 2338 MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, on Friday I indicated the various reasons why I do not believe that the provision which exists in the current Bill, Bill 9, which would have the effect of preventing people from acting as agents or brokers on behalf of an individual, a group, a corporation or any entity if that is their sole purpose, rather than to act as agents or brokers to the public at large.

I indicated, at that time, and I won't repeat the arguments, that I do not believe that this is a matter of principle on behalf of either the New Democratic Party or the government and that it will have, it could have in the future, the effect of reducing the competi­ tion in the marketplace.

Should the numbers of alter­ native insurers shrink and should that lead to the possibility of collusive practice, this would eliminate the only alternative that an individual might have, and that is to set up an agency or a brokerage which could act on behalf of one's own holdings whether that be any entity, as I say, an individual, a group, an estate, a corporation, whatever. I do not believe this is in the public interest, in fact, I believe that it has the potential to be detrimental to the public interest in reducing the competition.

I believe. that the only justification could be one of either admi­ nistrative convenience or else to satisfy, perhaps, the

Monday, 10 May, 19 82 concerns of those who are already acting as agents or brokers because it would limit their competition in future in the insurance field as agents or brokers. I do not believe there should be any concern what­ soever that it would lead to inexperienced or ill­ qualified people being in the industry because we still have, through the Superintendent of Insurance office, the right to examine and to assure ourselves that people who are given licences to act as agents or brokers are indeed qualified to do so.

As long as that power remains in the hands of the Superintendent of Insurance there ought not to be any concern that there might be ill-qualified people entering the field through this mechanism. As I said before, there is the opportunity under the existing legislation for the Superintendent of Insu­ rance not to grant a licence if she believes that one is not holding oneself out to deal with the public as an agent or a broker.

I do not believe that needs to be changed into a negative statement that says that the Superintendent shall not issue a licence to somebody who is not going to be acting publicly as an agent or a broker. Since many existing, well qualified and rec­ ognized agencies that are now trading with the public began initially as agents or brokers acting on behalf of small groups or individuals, and that has not damaged the insurance industry in Manitoba, I believe that the existing provisions well protect and serve the public.

I mentioned as well that there are very few other provincial jurisdictions who have such a provision, and the one the Minister mentioned to me was Onta­ rio, and I took the trouble of communicating with and discussing with senior officials from Ontario to try and determine why they have such a provision in their Act. Their response was that it has existed so long that none of them know the rationale that led to it having been put in their Act many years ago.

So there does not appear to be any knowledge on their part of why this is a good or a bad provision and it seems to me that, unless we have strong reasons in the public interest to bring in provisions to

an Act, I don't think we ought to further regulate any portion of this indus­ try without very good and solid reasons. So, Mr. Speaker, without further comment I recommend to members that the amendment be passed and the provisions that would restrict that ability of acting as agents or brokers on behalf of small groups or other entities be removed from the Bill. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. EUGENE KOSTYRA (Seven Oaks): Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak against the amend­ ment that is before us and in favour of the original motion. The amendment deletes a

section from the Act that as was outlined in debate, would prohibit the estab­ lishment of agencies under The Insurance Act that would be working specifically for one client, that is one company. The reason.for the amendment one, is to prohibit that practice because it is inconsistent with other sections of The Insurance Act. At the present time The Insurance Act outlines in

Section 371(1), that an agent in order to be granted a licence must hold himself out publicly for business. What would happen if the proposed amendment was passed is that agencies could be formed for the sole purpose of providing insurance for one specific company, which would mean that they would not be holding them­ selves out publicly to do business with any person or persons in the Province of Manitoba. Secondly, it's inconsistent with a further

section of the Act that deals with rebating under Subsection 378(4), which prohibits rebating and it could be inter­ preted that what is being suggested by allowing for the companies to form their own agencies, that it would be a form of rebating which is presently prohi­ bited under the Act. Also, it has been mentioned that in my opening statement that as far as possible and practical it is desirable to have insurance law consistent through­ out the country. There has been discussions with the insurance industry with respect to these amendments and it's my information that they are in favour of them.

There's also been discussions that are held nationally with the superintendents of insurance and they are all attempting to move at the same time with respect to the number of amendments and as was mentioned, this prohibition presently exists under The Insurance Act of Ontario. The main argument of the Member for Tuxedo is that it's not in the public interests, this amendment that was being proposed in the original motion would not allow for corporations, companies or people to have the advantage of setting up agencies for the sole purpose of providing insurance to themselves. Well, Mr.

Speaker, the facts of the matter are this would be only to the benefit of large corporations. It's only large corporations that would be able to be in a position to set up these agencies. Small business would not be able to set them up, they would not be able to do that. Individuals would not be able to set up these kind of agencies.

So, what we would have is large corpora­ tions having an unfair advantage with respect to insu­ rance in the Province of Manitoba; have a vehicle available to them that is not available to small busi­ ness and is not available to individuals in the Province of Manitoba because only large corporations would be in the position to set up these agencies. The other matter is that this would affect agents, small business people in the Province of Manitoba. We've heard lots from members opposite with respect to small business in the province and how they're concerned that small business is suffering.

This amendment would put small business people who act as agents in an unfair position because they would not be able to bid on large accounts as they presently can because large corporations would be able to use the commission that they would derive as being an agent to fold back into their own companies and indi­ vidual agents would not be able to compete for those policies so would affect the income of many small businesses in the Province of Manitoba that act as insurance agents.

So it's my opinion that this is cer­ tainly in the public interest so that one group, large corporations are not put into a situation of being at an advantage that isn't available to other people in the province, be it small business people or individuals. 2339 So with those few comments , Mr. Speaker, I urge members to defeat the proposed amendment and

Monday, 10 May, 19 82 vote in favour of the main motion. QUESTION put on the Amendment, MOTION defeated. THIRD READING MR. PENNER presented Bill No. 9,

An Act to amend The Insurance Act for third reading. MOTION presented. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, without belabouring the point, I just make the case that what the Minister has just told us is that he prefers to limit the competition amongst agents and brokers in this province by elimi­ nating an opportunity for others to set up their own private brokerage or agencies to perhaps avoid collu­ sive practice, to perhaps avoid limited competion amongst the insurance market.

Moreso than that, he has stated that the only people who would be able to set up an agency or a brokerage to deal on behalf of their own insurance needs are large corporations when very very specifically his Bill says and refers to, "dealing chiefly in the insurance of property owned by the corporation or its share­ holders, members or employees, or its subsidiaries, parent corporations or associated corporations or by any one or more of them or, by one corporation, or firm, or its shareholders, members, or employees, or subsidiaries by one person, estate or family," so he is eliminating the opportunity for any entity, not just large corporations.

When all else fails it's a reflex action on behalf of members opposite to slam the big corporations having unfair advantage in a particular market.

I am just as concerned for the fact that people act­ ing on behalf of a family, or an estate, or an individual, or a small group would be denied an opportunity to avoid what they might consider to be collusive prac­ tice in the market by setting up a small agency or brokerage and that's the reason I suggest the Minister is off-base and he has obviously given in to either a special-interest group in whose interest it is to limit competition, or for administrative convenience amongst his own department to eliminate this option for people.

I suggest that nobody's going to come out as they did into committee and be very upset about this but I see it in principle as being a lessening of competition and an increase in regulation in the marketplace which this government will leave as a legacy to the future. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Govern­ ment House Leader. MR. PENNER: I move, seconded by the Minister of Energy and Mines that this House resolve itself into A Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honour­ able Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Education and the Honourable Member for The Pas in the Chair for Urban Affairs. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY -URBAN AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN , Harry M. Harapiak (Flin Flon): I call the Comittee to order. We are considering the Esti­ mates of Urban Affairs, Item 1. (

a) Minister's Salary. Mr. Minister. MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I'd like to give a brief opening statement. Mr. Chairman, I'm pleased to introduce the 1982-83 Estimates of Expenditure for the Ministry of Urban Affairs. The Department of Urban Affairs is responsible for administering The City of Winnipeg Act and for co-ordinating develop­ ment and implementation of Provincial Urban poli­ cies and programs in close co-operation with the Council of the City of Winnipeg and the Government of Canada.

The Estimates placed before you reflect this government's firm commitment to ensure that the major issues of economic, social and physical devel­ opment and revitalization in our largest community are addressed as positively and creatively as possible. The Estimates provide for the re-establishment of the Department of Urban Affairs with the necessary min­ imum increase in staff to develop, co-ordinate and administer provincial-urban policies and programs.

The department has primary responsibility within the Provincial Government for the determination of financial support for the City of Winnipeg and for the implementation of the Canada-Manitoba-Winnipeg Core Area Agreement and the Canada-Manitoba Agreement for Recreation and Conservation for the Red River Corridor. 2340 Estimated expenditures for these three purposes are contained within the department's Estimates and reflect the desire of this government to pursue its urban objectives in a co-operative and flexible manner using whatever methods are most appropriate, including direct grants, joint programming as in the case of the core area, and complementary program­ ming as in the case of ARC .

In addition to these major programs that are shown in the departmental Esti­ mate, the Department of Urban Affairs has overall responsibility for ensuring the maintenance of Legis­ lative financial and planning framework within which the City of Winnipeg can work effectively to meet the needs of its citizens.

This framework includes the City of Winnipeg Act and other pertinent provincial legis­ lation; the whole range of policies and programs which affect the city's resources of Revenue and requirements for Expenditure and the Greater Win­ nipeg Development Plan which governs long-term urban land use, transportation and development ser­ vicing decisions. In order to discharge this overall responsibility effectively the province must be well-informed and sensitive to the changing objectives and require-

ments of the City of Winnipeg and the Gove rnment of Canada as well as the needs and aspir ations of the citizens themselves. I'm pleased to advise that the Urban Affairs Committee of Cabinet was reconsti­ tuted shor tly after this gove rnment took office and that the Cabinet Committee has al ready met with the city's offical delegation on four occasions to discuss ur ban issues and identify oppo rtunities for co-operative action . I have been meeting very fre­ quently with the Mayor of Winnipeg and the Federal Minister of Employment and Immig ration as member s of the Core Area Ag reement Policy Committee.

My Cabinet colleagues have also been engaged in inter -gover nmental discussions of matters involving their particular departmental responsibili ties. I've been most encour aged by the spirit of co-ope ration which all pa rties have demonst rated in our negotiations to date and I'm very optimistic about the pr ospects for inte r-gove rnmental co-oper ation on pr iority issues.

At the same time I am concerned to ensure that spe­ cial effo rts are made to pr ovide for mor e effective consultation and pa rticipation by individual citizens, organizations and the business sector on develop­ ment and implementation of decisions which affect the well-being of our urban society. We are already pu rsuing the objective of inc reased citizen consultation and pa rticipation to the Core Area Ag reement and we also intend to ensure that greater efforts towa rds citizen pa rticipation are made in all matters within the ju risdiction of the depa rtment. Mr.

Chai rman, having made these few brief intr o­ ductor y remarks on the general mandate of the re­ established Depar tment of Urban Affairs, I shall be pleased to pr ovide mo re specific details with respect to individual pr og rams as each of the four Resolutions are discussed. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chai rman, I thank the Minister for his opening rema rks. I think we can pr oceed line-by-line. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (

b) Salar ies. MR. MERCIER: Could the Minister indicate whether he is responsible for any other municipality other than the City of Winnipeg? MR. KOS TYRA: No. MR. MERCIER: Will the Minister be intr oducing any amendments to The City of Winnipeg Act this yea r? MR. KOST YRA: Yes, Mr. Chai rman, there may be some minor amendments int roduced but I don't antic­ ipate any major amendments at this sitting of the Legislature. MR. MERCIER: Could the Ministe r indicate the numbe r of staff man years in his depar tment? MR. KOSTYRA: The total staff man years is 19 . MR.

MERCIER: Does the Minister have an organiza­ tional cha rt? MR. KOST YRA: Yes, Mr. Chai rman. 2341 19 82 MR. MERCIER: Does the Minister have an extra copy? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, we'll have one made sho rtly and dist ribute it to the Membe r for St. Norbe rt. MR. MERCIER: Could the Minister , to go back to one other subject, could the Minister indicate the space that the department operates out of? MR.

KOSTYRA: Outside of the space for the Deputy Minister in this building, the Depa rtment of Urban Affairs has space in the Manu life Building, appr oxi­ mately 3,000 square feet on the fifth floor and the ARC Author ity has additional space in the Manu life Building. MR. MERCIER: How many employees will occupy the Manulife Building? MR. KOSTYRA: The re'll be 16 in the depar tment and there's 1 employee on the other floor for the ARC autho rity and 2 employees in this building, in the Legislative Building. MR. MERCIER: What is the annual rental of the Man­ ul ife space? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Chai rman, the rental for the Director of Urban Affair's por tion of the Manu life Building is app roximately $30,000 per year and I'm infor med that the rental for the ARC autho rity is app roximately $11,000 per year, additional. MR. MERCIER: Not having an or ganizational cha rt, Mr. Chai rman, could the Minister indicate how the staff are allocated, in what areas? MR. KOSTYRA: I'll break down the 19 SMY s. They're not all filled at the pr esent time. There are 2 in the Executive function, the Deputy Minister and the Secretary to the Deputy Ministe r.

There are 9 posi­ tions in the Administration and Finance Branch and 7 positions in the Urban Policy Co-o rdination Branch and 1 position in the ARC Secretariat. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. No rbert. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chair man, it would pr obably be mor e app ropriate then to discuss the functions of the Other Employees as we pr oceed th rough the other areas of the Estimates. In this area, Mr. Chai rman, I wonde r if the Minister could indicate his position to the Association of Urban Municipalities with respect to thei r Resolution favou ring an inc rease in the sales tax? MR. KOS TYRA: Well, Mr.

Chai rman, the way the question was ph rased is that the Association is in favour of raising the sales tax. I'm glad to see the re's some people that are in favou r of raising the sales tax, but I think what the membe r is referring to is the position with respect to raising the sales tax and hav­ ing a po rtion of that sales tax made available to munic­ ipalities th roughout the pr ovince. We have had dis­ cussions with the municipalities with respect to thei r

Monday, 10 May, 19 82 request and recently, within the last week, received a Resolution passed by the City of Winnipeg making the same request to us and the whole area of assis­ tance to muni cipalities is under review and it's going to be under further review with respect to in creased assistance to municipalities. There has been, from time to time, as the Member for St. Norbert is aware, numerous requests during his term in office for increased assistance to municipalities throughout the Provinc e of Manitoba, especially in the area of the opportunity of having a greater portion of growth taxes.

All I could say at the present time, Mr. Chairman, is the whole area is under active consideration by the government. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, has the Minister received a report from Mr. Justice Hall whom Cabinet authorized to enquire into the salaries of City Council? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, no I have not received the report and I may have to look into it further, but it's my information that I would not be receiving the report directly. The authorization for the Justice to serve in that capacity was upon request of the City of Winnipeg who wanted the Justice to do a review of the City of Winnipeg salaries.

However, there had to be, as I understand it, permission granted by the Provin­ cial Government before a federal Judge can be used to do any inquiries within provincial jurisdi ction. So I am of the opinion that the report that's referred to would be made dire ctly to the City of Winnipeg for possible action by them directly. MR. MERCIER: Does the Minister have any knowl­ edge when that report will be completed? MR. KOSTYRA: No, I do not, Mr. Chairman. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the city had requested the province to provide legislative changes to give the Ombudsman jurisdiction over the City of Winnipeg.

Has the Minister developed a position with respect to that request? MR. KOSTYRA: No, Mr. Chairman, we have not de­ veloped a position with respect to that request. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, does the Minister intend to undertake any sort of a major review of The City of Winnipeg Act? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I noted when assuming office, and was reminded by the City of Winnipeg at one of the early meetings, that there was a very lengthy document of requested changes to The City of Winnipeg Act by the City of Winnipeg.

It would be our intention to do a review over the next period of time; to look at possible changes to the City of Win­ nipeg Act; to look specifi cally at the request from the City of Winnipe g. There have been requests from time to time by individuals or groups within the city with respect to The City of Winnipeg Act and it is our intention to do a review over the next period time into The City of Winnipeg Act. for looking at possible changes in subsequent Sessions of the Legislature. MR.

MERCIER: I wonder if the Minister can indicate what sort of review he would be looking at; one within the department or one through appointees who would hold public hearings, etc.? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, quite frankly, the government hasn't addressed itself to that particular issue. Unfortunately, we have not as yet, even deter­ mined what course we would take with respect to any review.

It may be that it would be internally, within the department, within government or I wouldn't close the door to the possibility of having some outside person or persons look at The City of Winnipeg Act, but no decisions have been made with respect to that at the present time . MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, does the Minister intend to undertake a review of ward boundaries before the next civic election? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr.

Chairman, that is a possibility because of the change in the census since the boun­ daries were last established that there could possibly be a review prior to the next civic election due to the population changes or shifts in the City of Winnipeg. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, there was a report by the Clean Environment Commission urging the City of Winnipeg to take steps to curb river pollution. Has the Minister's department been involved in any con­ sideration of that report in any discussions with the city? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, I am aware of the report the Member for St. Norbert has referred to.

I have not had any discussions with the City of Win­ nipeg on the report from the Manitoba Clean Envi­ ronment Commission . I did have discussions, how­ ever, with the Town of Selkirk at a time when there was a meeting between the Cabinet and officials from the Town of Selkirk where they raised concerns with respect to water quality in the Town of Selkirk, as the member is aware.

The Town of Selkirk has to drink the water that comes down the Red River through Win­ nipeg and we had indicated to the Town of Selkirk that through both my department and the Department of Environment there would be dicussions with the City of Winnipeg with respect to the water quality of the Red River . Those discussions have not taken place as of yet. 2342 MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, does the Minister support the motion that was made by NOP Members of City Coun cil to buy Greater Winnipeg Gas Company? MR.

KOSTYRA: I'm not aware of the specific motion that the City of Winnipeg buy the Greater Winnipeg Gas Company - it sounds like a good idea - or was the suggestion that the province buy the Greater Win­ nipeg Gas Company? MR. MERCIER: The motion was that the province should buy Greater Winnipeg Gas Company. MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, there has not been

Monday, 10 May, 19 82 any representation to me with respect to that resolu­ tion. I do not believe it had passed City Council and I would await any requests from the City of Winnipeg officially with respect to Greater Winnipeg Gas. As the mem ber is aware, the renewal of the license to Greater Winnipeg Gas to the distri bution rights of gas is up for renewal and within the couple of years and that matter is under discussion through the Depart­ ment of Energy and Mines. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman. during the Estimates of the Municipal Affairs the Minister indicated that he intended to have a legislative committee hold hear­ ings after the end of this Session of the legislature on the Weir Report on Assessment and I asked him if there had been any discussion with the Mayor and the Chairman of City Council of the official delegation or the Minister of Urban Affairs prior to deciding to em bark upon that course of action.

I raised the ques­ tion inasmuch as the city had almost been a partner in the whole assessment review process and that their administration were very closely involved and con­ sulted through that process.

I asked the Minister if he has had any discussion with the Mayor and Commit­ tee Chairman on that course of action by the Minister of Municipal Affairs, whether the city concurs in that position or would they, in view of the long involve­ ment of the Weir Study, rather have the city and the province jointly consider that report at least to deter­ mine whether or not there are any interim recommen­ dations the city and the province might support. MR. KOSTYRA: Yes. Mr. Chairman, as the Mem ber for St.

Norbert is aware the report has just recently been pu blished and distributed to the interested municipalites and cities throughout the province and that was just a matter of a few weeks ago. I have not, as of yet, had the opportunity of discussing any matters with respect to the Weir Report with the Mayor or the official delegation of the City of Winnipeg.

I would expect that probably at an early meeting of the official delegation and the Ur ban Affairs Committee of Ca binet that issue would be discussed with respect to the Weir Report, but there has not been any discus­ sions with the city as of this date with respect to the Weir Report, nor has there been any requests from the Mayor to me . or the official delegation to the Urban Affairs Committee of Ca binet, with any specific recommendations on possible implementation of the recommendations of the Weir Report. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman.

I wonder, did the Min­ ister indicate he would be discussing this issue with the Mayor and Chairman of City Council prior to pro­ ceeding with Legislative Committee hearings? MR. KOSTYRA: Insofar as there are, on a regular basis, meetings with the official delegation and the Urban Affairs Committee of Ca binet, I would expect that issue would be discussed prior to the formation of the Committee hearings that the Member for St. Nurbert refers to. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b) -pass; 1.(

c) Other Expenditures-pass; No. 2. Administration and Finance Branch 2.(

a) Salaries. The Member for St. Nor bert. MR. MERCIER: The Minister indicated there were 9 employees or staff man years in this particular area. Could he indicate in more detail what these people will be doing within this Branch? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the Administra­ tion and Finance Branch provides for - I might just give. if you will, some general remarks ab out the whole

section and then I'll zero-in on the staff. The Administration and Finance Branch provides for $45,220,000 which is primarily for grants to the City of Winnipeg. Appropriation 2.(

a) provides for $195,000 for salar­ ies of the 9 staff members of the newly esta blished Administration and Finance Branch which is respon­ sible for providing administrative financial and cleri­ cal services for the department as a whole which has specific responsi bility for co-ordinating the develop­ ment and implementation of the whole range of pro­ vincial policies and intergovernmental arrangements as they affect urban finance. Appropriation 2. (

b) provides for start-up and ongo­ ing expenses for office accommodation and equip­ ment for the department plus Other Expenditures required by the Administration and Finance Branch. Appropriation 2.(

c) provides a total of $44.8 million for the three separate grants to the City of Winnipeg to replace, on an interim basis, the former block grant. The staffing is as follows: in the Administration and Finance Branch there's a Director of the Branch, 1 proposed Senior Urban Finance Co-ordinator, an Urb an Finance Analyst. a Senior Urban Economic Analyst, one Administrative Officer, one Clerk, two Administrative Secretaries and one Administrative Secretary term position. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, as the Minister indi­ cated when he announced the Annual Provincial Grant to the City of Winnipeg, that $13,666,000 was to cover half the cost of the Transit deficit; $11 million as an unconditional programs grant and $20.140,000 is an unconditional current programs grant, is it the intention of the Minister to, in the coming fiscal year, impose conditions on the capital programs grant? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman. we have not made any decisions with respect to the financial assistance. the grants to the City of Winnipeg for the next fiscal year.

What we did indicate, that we made a change from the former block grant on an interim basis to the three separate grants as indicated and that over the next year we'd be doing a review of financial assistance of the Grant Program to the City of Winnipeg in co­ operation and in consultation with the City of Win­ nipeg in anticipation of completing a review prior to making decisions with respect to the grants for next year. So, in direct answer to the question, no, we have not made that decision at this time. 2343 MR.

MERCIER: The Minister indicated he wanted to review the city's request for next year before making any decision with respect to conditional grants? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the original

Monday, 10 May, 19 82 question was whether or not the province would be putting restrictions on, with respect to the Capital grants. I indicated that we ha ve not made any deci­ sions in that regard at the present time. What we have said is that we are going to review the grants to the City of Winnipeg, discuss the method of giving grants to the City of Winnipeg, with the City of Winnipeg, and then be making decisions with respect to those grants prior to the next fiscal year. MR.

MERCIER: Does the Minister mean that he will have to satisfy himself that the programs that are submitted are programs that he would approve? MR. KOSTYRA: No, Mr. Chairman, that's not what I said. What I said is that we have not made any deci­ sion as to how the grants will be made to the City of Winnipeg in the future; whether or not that means that we're going to look at specific Capita l programs and make decisions with respect to the assistance on the approved Capital projects is a question that is still open.

We have not made a decision either way in that specific regard; nor have we made any decisions gen­ erally with respect to the way and method that grants will be given to the City of Winnipeg in the future. We're very open on that and if he has specific sugges­ tions as to how the grants could be made I would be interested in he aring them. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Assiniboia. MR. RURIK (Ric) NORDMAN (Assiniboia): I think, basically, Mr.

Ch airman, my question has pretty well been answered because that was what I was going to ask, was what ch anges, if any, had the Minister in mind for the grants to the city, whether they were going to be anything other than the conditional grants or whether there was going to be block funding or what. He pretty well answered the question that I had in mind. MR. CHAIRMAN: l. (

a) Sal aries. The Member for St. Norbert. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I would like the Minis­ ter to explain in some more detail the reason why nine staff-man-years are required in this branch. Formerly this work, I believe, was carried out by one, and per­ haps, two at the most, individuals. Can the Minister explain the need for a Director, a Senior Urban Finance Co-ordinator, a Senior Urban Ecomonic Ana­ lyst, etc.? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr. Ch airman, there was, basi­ cally, contained in the Department of Municipal and Urban Affairs, two of the nine positions. Some of the new positions are needed, as the title of the

section indicates, Administration and Finance, to administer the ongoing work of the dep artment with respect to payroll and other such matters . There is, first of all, with the re-establishment of the Urban Affairs Department, was to meet a number of needs. One, as I indicated, we are looking forward to doing a review of urban assistance to the City of Winnipeg which will require some work within the department. Secondly, as the Member for St.

Norbert is aware, the Winnipeg Core Area Initiatives is just presently starting to move ahead and there is considerable responsibility by the Provincial Government with respect to the Core Area Initiatives. It is requiring additional work and addi­ tional staff to deal with it on an ongoing basis. Also, there are other activities with respect to the ARC Pro­ gram that are also accelerating in the coming year and in subsequent years that require a greater ability of the dep artment to respond. Tha t is the reason for the increase in this particular section, from approxi­ mately two employees to nine. MR.

MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I don't think that answer satisfies me. First of all, the Minister made a reference to Core Area Initiative staff; that is con­ tained in the next branch where there is cert ain shar­ ing with other levels of costs with other governments. The only thing the Minister has referred to is to do the payroll and to review financial assist ance. I can tell the Minister that a former employee, and I don't want to go into names but he will know who I mean, was well qualified to review the financia l arrangements with the City of Winnipeg.

One is led to the conclusion that the Minister simply approved a very large increase in the bureaucr atic structure for no worthwhile pur­ pose. What he has indicated - to do the payroll and to review the figures - are not justification for this large an increase in the staff man years in this pa rticular area when it was done quite well by one particula r individual still employed with the department and I hope he's employed with the dep artment for a long time.

There may be one reason which the Minister doesn't care to acknowledge at this particula r point and that is that the Minister wishes to second-guess and dupli­ cate and overlap the work done by the existing City of Winnipeg Administration who are extremely well­ qualified in their own right and work on a day-by-day basis with City of Winnipeg matters. So, Mr. Ch air­ man, I would ask the Minister, again, can he provide any more justification for an increase in 7 staff man years in this particula r area or does he intend to use these people to second-guess the City of Winnipeg? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, the very simple answer to the question is no. It's our intention not to second-guess the fine staff that the Member for St. Norbert referred to that work for the City of Winnipeg but to work co-opera tively with them as we are with the elected officials of the City of Winnipeg, to look at the major problems that are facing the City of Win­ nipeg and thereby affecting the Provincial Govern­ ment, the Province of Manitoba. As the Member for St.

Norbert is well aware the City of Winnipeg is facing a number of major problems, a number of major, issues over the next period of time, the next decade and beyond, and that those have a great impact on the Provincial Government and there is responsibility on the Provincial Government to respond in a co-oper ative fashion with the City of Winnipeg to deal with those problems, to deal with those issues, and that the Department of Urban Affairs of the Provincial Government need some min­ imal resources to adequately address those issues, those pro blems from a provincial perspective, to pro­ vide the kind of assistance that is going to be needed 2344

Monday, 10 May, 19 82 to the City of Winnipeg to deal with those problems. I indicated a number of areas that there was need for the province to have the necessary resources to deal with, in cluding the implications of further assis­ tance to the City of Winnipeg with respect to grants and financial assistance, which is not an easy issue to deal with, that one needs to look at very closely and very carefully.

I also indicated that the activities under the Core Area Agreement are acc elerating and the province has to watch very carefully that those pro­ grams are going to work; that there is a political com­ mitment that was made by the previous government that we confirm, with respect to the Winnipeg Core Area Initiatives. that the three levels of government, the City, the Federal Government and the Province have made a commitment on a tri-level basis to deal with the pro blems in the Core area of Winnipeg and to respond to them adequately and that requires resour­ ces at all three levels of government and also, at the implementation stage, through the Core Area Initia­ tives to deal with them.

I also indicated that the branch will be providing administrative assistance to the department and some of the staff that have been mentioned with respect to an area of clerical assistance will be available to both branches, to all sections of the department, to give the ne cessary support services in order to carry out the work of the department. The answer is, Mr. Chairman, that we are not trying to second -guess the city; we have ac celerated the meetings, both at a political level and at a staff level with the City of Winnipeg.

We have, as an example, had four meetings to date with the Urban Affairs Committee of Ca binet and the official delegation of the City of Winnipeg which was, as I understand it, twice as many than were held in the entire last year between the City of Winnipeg and the Provincial Government. By becoming much more active in dealing with the requests that come from the City of Winnipeg it requires some resources, minimal resources, to adequately deal with those issues. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, the member refers to some broader subjec ts which, I think, will come up in the next branch, but we're here discussing an increase to 9 staff man years in the Administration and Finance branch which provides for the payment of assistance to the City of Winnipeg, ac cording to the description, that amounts to four cheques per year for block fund­ ing on a quarterly basis. What are these 9 staff man years going to - the Minister says he's not going to second- guess the City of Winnipeg - do for the resi­ dents of the City of Winnipeg?

We're in this situation, economically in the province, where the government of which the Minister is a part, are no doubt tomorrow night going to increase taxes on every resident of the province and here we have a situation where there has been a substantial increase in administration for no demonstrable reason. The Minister says he's not going to second- guess the decisions of the City of Winnipeg. In essence, the decision on the amount of a grant to the City of Win­ nipeg is a political question, keeping in consideration the amount that the government can afford to provide through its overall Estimates.

This is an in crease of 9 staff man years at a time when the government is going to increase taxes and, I think, the Minister has to provide some better justification what service these people are going to provide to the City of Winnipeg taxpayers who are incurring a significant increase in their real property taxes this year through municipal and education increases. Perhaps the money could have been better spent by providing more assistance to the City of Winnipeg to reduce the mill rate increase or to the School Boards to reduce the educat ion tax increase.

What service are these people going to pro­ vide, what improvement are they going to make to the residents of the City of Winnipeg? MR. KOSTYRA: Mr. Chairman, I indicated in my pre­ vious answer the reasons for the minimal increase in staffing and this Provincial Government's role and responsi bility that it feels to the majority of the citi­ zens of the province that reside in the City of Win­ nipeg. I take exception to the comment that it would be very simple and there would be no need of any staff resources to make a political decision with respect to providing financial assistance to the City of Winnipeg.

I may be a bit naive, Mr. Chairman, but I would rather approach the question of assistance to the City of Winnipeg in not strictly political fashion as to what kind of in crease would be politically accepta ble, but rather what kind of assistance should the provinc e and in what manner and what form should the Gov­ ernment of Manitoba, give to the City of Winnipeg to assist it in carrying out the needs and the wishes as the City Council sees it with respect to the citizens of the City of Winnipeg. In order to do that, Mr.

Chair­ man, I believe that it needs some staff support, some assistance so that we're not in a position that we just make strictly political de cisions with respect to finan­ cial support to the City of Winnipeg; that we'd look at it in a rational and reasoned fashion and look at the ways that the province can effectively assist the City of Winnipeg in carrying out the affairs and the kind of financial system would form. It's not a simple matter just to take the requests from the City of Winnipeg and say well, all we can politi­ cally afford is X amount of dollars and sign a cheque.

I believe that it takes some work, some research into what kind of a system in what form the province should give to the City of Winnipeg. As I indicated there are a number of pressing issues that are facing the City of Winnipeg, that are facing most major urban centres in the country that have to be addressed in the near future.

It's my opinion that they're not simple pro blems; the solutions to those pro blems are not going to be simple solutions and it's going to take some research, some working with the City of Win­ nipeg in order to solve some of those pro blems, I believe, that we are going to have with the resources that are available and they are not significant in creases. The member is attempting to portray the in creases in a massive manner that they're large in crease in the bureaucracy of the Provincial Gov­ ernment and they're rather minimal increases.

If one looks at the in creases at the staffing as compared to when the Department of Urban Affairs was last func­ tioning as a separate department, that they're very close to that same staffing level without the other major components that the department is dealing with such as the Core Area Initiatives Agreement and the ARC Program. 2345

Monday, 10 May, 19 82 I am of the opinion Mr. Chair man, that the increases are not substantial and are certain ly going to be used in a way to assist the City of Winnipeg in dealing with the major problems that it's facing and thereby assist­ ing the citizens of Winnipeg. MR. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Municipa l Affairs indicated there were four staff man years transferred from the Department of Municipal Affairs to the new Urban Affairs Department. Now we have a total of 19 staff man years.

In this branch we have a Director, Ad ministration and Finance Branch; then we have a Senior Urban Economic Analyst. Could the Minister described that person's function? MR. KOSTYRA: I' m sorry, I got distr acted for a moment. What was the last question? Describe that MR. MERCIER: Describe the function of the Senior Urban Economic Analyst. MR. KOSTYRA: The position of the Senior Urba n Economic Ana lyst, he or she would serve as a consul­ tant on fiscal impa ct and economic proble ms as well as a senior urban economic policy analyst and advi­ sor within the department.

He or she would be under­ taking economic analysis and fiscal impa ct studies on major plans and redevelopment projects including urban growth management; urban energy utilization and conservation progr ams and policies; industrial, com mercial and private sector housing proposals; the role and im pa ct of tax incentives achieving urban policy objectives and dealing with specific projects under the Core Area Initiatives Agreement such as the CN Ea st Yards Develop ment Project and the ARC Program, and would be dealing with other major pro­ jects that impa ct on the department that may be pro­ posed by the City of Winnipeg in the future - as the Member for St.

Norbert is aware - some major Capi­ tal progr ams that the City of Winnipeg is contempl at­ ing with respect to the aqueduct and the heat recov­ ery plant and would also represent the department on interdepart mental com mittees and intergovern men­ tal com mittees and task forces. MR. CHAIRMAN, Don Scott (lnkster): The Member for St. Norbert. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Ch air man, would the Minister acknowledge that those functions are all functions that are undertaken in other depart ments of government? MR. KOSTYRA: No, Mr.

Ch air man, I don't think that any other dep art ment of government de als directly with those urban issues. There may be parts or com­ ponents of those issues that may be dealt with by other sections or other departments of govern ment, but not generally with respect to the City of Winnipeg in that manner. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chair man, the Minister, I believe, referred to consideration of the heat recovery plant. Has the Minister not acknowledged that is a matter that should be properly considered by the Depart- ment of Energy and Mines? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr.

Chair man, as indicated with respect to the technical side of a project like that, there would be cert ainly assistance and technical advice available in the Department of Energy and Mines to deal with that side of that particular project. MR. MERCIER: I didn't ca tch them all, Mr. Ch air man, I believe the Minister referred to a housing area. Does the Minister not acknowledge that there is a great deal of expertise on housing within MH RC? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Ch air man, the Minister I believe referred to economic impa ct of projects.

Does the Minister not acknowledge that there is a great deal of expertise on that subject within the Department of Economic Development? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, there is technical assistance available through the Department of Economic Development with respect to the economic develop­ ment generally in the province. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Chair man, the Minister has referred to, I believe, the study of tax incentives. Would the Minister not acknowledge that there is a great deal of expertise on that subject in the Depart­ ment of Municipa l Affairs and/or the Department of Finance? MR.

KOSTYRA: With respect to taxa tion certainly in the Department of Fin ance there is expertise available with respect to general tax ation policies but I do not, or I' m of the opinion that there is not expertise for people available in the Finance Department to deal specifically with urban tax ation issues. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Cha ir man, the Minister's referred to the payroll function. Does the Minister not acknowledge that the payroll function could have been carried out through the Department of Munici­ pal Affairs as it was before? MR. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr.

Ch air man, the pa yroll is a sma ll function of the depart ment. There are additional expenditures that go through the department includ­ ing the core initiatives and the assistance to the City of Winnipeg. So in establishing the department if the function was solely for the purposes of providing pay­ roll, there would not be need for a separ ate adminis­ tration and finance section. That

section does not only deal with payroll, it deals with the monies that are afforded to the City of Winnipeg, monies that are turned over to the Winnipeg core area initiatives on behalf of the province. So there are many functions of a financial nature that the

section is dealing with, not just actual payroll of the employees of the department. MR. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Chair man, the Minister had cited payroll as one of the two areas tha t this Branch was going to be involved in and now he says it's a very minor part. There is no great number of cheques to the City of Winnipeg. The block funding is paid on a 2346

Monday, 10 May, 19 82 quarterly basis which is four cheques per year and the Minister has now cited this as a significant reason for this large increase in staff. I have to again remind the Minister that tomorrow night this government is going to increase taxes, the sales tax may very well be one part of that.

People nowadays are having a very difficult time meeting ends if they're lucky enough to be employed and the Minister has offered no significant reason why the taxpayer should be burdened with an increase in staff in this particular area and in this total department by over a quarter of a million dollars to provide a function that was formerly carried on by four people and now apparently requires 19 people under this government. How is he going to explain that to the constituents in his constituency who are having a difficult time financially if they're lucky enough to have a job?

What service are these additional people going to provide in this branch when he's now acknowledged that there is a great deal of expertise within the provincial gov­ ernment in these various areas? If it's an Economic Development matter, there are people well-qualified in the Department of Economic Development to provide advice to the Minister of Urban Affairs on a specific issue. If it's a matter of taxes, we have well-qualified people in the Depart­ ment of Finance or the Department of Municipal Affairs to provide advice.

The Minister is not only duplicating and question­ ing the information provided from the City of Win­ nipeg through their well-developed and well-qualified administration, he's duplicating the services that are already offered by various departments of the Provin­ cial Government, whether it be Economic Develop­ ment, Municipal Affairs. Finance, MHRC , Department of Energy and Mines, or any other department. What additional service can these additional staff provide that is not already available through the expertise in the City of Winnipeg or in Provincial Government departments? MR. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman. The Mem ber for St. Norbert is somehow trying to lead into the de bate that may start tomorrow evening with respect to the Budget and I think the general com­ ments with respect to what may or may not be con­ tained in the Budget should be best left to that time because I think there are a number of reasons that have gone into the decisions that will be made with respect to the Budget tomorrow night.

To somehow suggest that the minimal increases in the staffing of this department have a great impact on what may or may not happen with respect to taxes contained in the Budget tomorrow night, I think are simply not correct.

There's certainly no intention and if one was to take the argument of the member to its extreme that we were setting up a department within government to do things that can be done and are being done in other sections of the department, would mean the staffing increase would not be the small num ber that it is, that we'd be setting up a department of two or three or four times the size of the one that is being put into place because the co-operation within other departments of government is continuing and the Department of Urban Affairs is on a regular basis, using the advice and expertise that's contained in other departments of government, but it certainly has to be co-ordinated with respect to the assistance and the co-operation with the City of Winnipeg.

The member also fails to realize the comments, fails to understand the comments I made earlier with respect to the increase in activities of the department that he himself is aware of, as an example, with respect to the core area initiatives. He talks ab out the increased staffing, that it is going to result in greater costs to government and thereby, greater costs to the citizens of the province. But on the other hand, Mr.

Chairman, we have a responsibility in government to ensure that the funds that are being expended on various programs are being done so in an efficient and co-ordinated fashion so that there isn't monies and funds spent needlessly with respect to the increased activity in the Urban Affairs area as exem­ plified by the core area initiatives, that there are large sums of money that are being used in the core area of Winnipeg, funds provided by the province and we have a responsibility to ensure that those funds are spent in the most efficient manner and are not spent needlessly.

That does require some resources in order to do that. There are large amounts of money spent on the core area initiatives. As an example, the province is involved with major pieces of property as a result of the province being the implementing jurisdiction with respect to the land acquisition under the various pro­ grams of the core area initiatives. We have a responsi­ bility to ensure that those funds are spent in the pub­ lic's interest and that does require some minimal staff resources, Mr. Chairman. 2347 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood): Mr.

Chairman, just briefly in response to the Mem ber for St. Nor bert. I think this money that would be required to esta blish a department, not a couple of people, floating about or walking ab out Municipal Affairs, I think the money would be well spent. There are 600,000 people in the City of Winnipeg; they have concerns and needs; they have requirements; they have aspirations. The Member for St. Nor bert, if we push his argument, I suppose could logically argue that you only need two or three departments in government.

The Department of Agri­ culture, maybe Public Works, Finance and that's ab out it and they could all be run out of a few depart­ ments. I'd remind him that his own government started out with one of the smallest Ca binets in Mani­ toba history and bragged about it and then had one of the largest Ca binets in Manitoba history and didn't say anything ab out that. I don't believe that when the member was the Minister that he really had the in­ House expertise : I don't believe his government had the policies or the thrusts that the people of this city wanted.

Winnipeg, in my judgment, didn't go forward in the late 70s but lost in both relative and ab solute terms. lost ground to Regina, Edmonton and Calgary and Winnipeg needs some special attention, needs some focus and some thrust, needs money, in particu­ lar, needs dollars. In fact, not too long from now, I'm going to be standing up and arguing that they should get more money out of the CPR. To put programs in

Monday, 10 19 82 place and to give Winnipeg the attent ion it deserves it's going to require money and it's going to require staff. The previous administration didn't believe in that. They believed in every man for himse lf - which is what Tommy Douglas used to say - when the elephant danced among the chickens. He certainly did, and he was right.

I don't know - it would be interesting to hear what ex-councillor Nordman would have to say about whether he felt the city, when he was a member, received sufficient funding from the province and whether he liked the block-funding proposal -( Interjecti on )- he didn't like either. I simply say that if you are going to give the city its proper due and I'm an urban member and I want strong provincial support and if that necessitates a staff of 19 rather than a staff of 4 then that's the way it is.

You're certainly not going to have a whole series of complicated urban programs and, of course, work with the city when you only have a couple of people floating about the department of Municipal Affairs.

I think the Minister is right in establishing a department and the government is right in establishing a depart­ ment and 15 civil servants to look after the needs of 600,000 people, as far as I'm concerned, is a good investment -( Interjection )- that's right, and my col­ league is absolutely correct that I tend to think in terms of Winnipeg but that it is in regard to the whole urban scene in the Province of Manitoba. MR. KOSTVRA: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the comments of the Member for Elmwood.

The actual increase in staffing was not as indicated, I should just cla rify the existing position that we utilized from Municipa' Affairs were nine positions so the net increase in complement was ten positions. There wre nine positions rather than the four the Member for Elmwood referred to. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I was taking the word of the Member for St. Norbert but I stand corrected by the Minister. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norbert. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, firstly, to the Member for Elm wood, the Minister of Urban Affairs has already indicated that he's not responsible for any other municipal jurisdiction than the City of Winnipeg. Secondly, the Minister of Municipal Affairs indicated in his Estimates that four staff man years were trans­ ferred from the Department of Municipal Affairs to this department so we're talking about an increase of 15 staff man years. Thirdly, Mr.

Chairman, I want to make it clear, and the members can go back to Hans­ ard, when I had the privilege of doing these Estimates I was asked for my view on whether there should be a separate department for Urban Affairs and my answer was then - and my position still is - it really was of no great concern to me whether the Urban Affairs responsibility was within the Department of Munici­ pal and Urban Affairs, or whether there were separate Ministers but there certainly has to be a designated Minister responsible for liaison and working with the City of Winnipeg because of its significant population in Manitoba and its importance to the total economy of the Province of Manitoba, and because of its large relative population to the province.

I've no great quar­ rel with the establishment of a department; I was Min­ ister of Urban Affairs and called upon specific staff within the Department of Municipal and Urban Affairs for assistance in dealing with the City of Winnipeg and there were certain staffpersons who are here now who had specific areas of responsibility and did a very good job. My question here is, we now have an increase of some 15 staff man years. I'm not suggesting - no one should take this suggestion - that only four people worked on City of Winnipeg matters.

We were able to use the expertise of whatever department or agency was involved with some specific responsibility, whether it be MHRC or Economic Development or Municipal Affairs or Finance or whatever, and the Minister has indicated that he's still calling upon these departments for assistance on specific matters. Now, he says I'm getting into the debate that will start tomorrow night. Well, I remind him that the Pre­ mier has indicated to a number of groups throughout the province that taxes are increasi ng .

If he doesn't believe the Premier then, I suppose, there's some hope for all of the taxpayers in Manitoba that taxes won't be increased tomorrow night and I would wel­ come that.

What I'm trying to ascertain from the Minis­ ter is, considering the expertise that is available in the province in the various departments and at the City of Winnipeg within their administration, what are these additional staff persons- and we're talking this time about the Administration and Finance Branch - what additional service or benefit are they going to provide to the City of Winnipeg residents and taxpayers that is not presently available in one form or the other? We have apparently, a Senior Urban Finance Co-ordinator, a Senior Urban Economic Analyst, an Urban Finance Analyst.

The Minister keeps referring to the Core area. There is a line in the following branch covering the Estimates of the Core Area Agreement but here we're talking about Administration and Finance and I'm concerned about what these additional people are going to accomplish for the residents and taxpayers of the City of Winnipeg and the province. 2348 MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Minister. MR. KOSTVRA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, the Member for St. Norbert keeps referring to 4 positions that existed in the Department of Municipal Affairs.

I believe that the 'lnswer to the question that he raised in Estimates of Municipal Affairs was with respect to the individuals that were transferred to the new department and there are 4 emcumbent individu­ als that moved from the Department of Municipal Affairs to the new Department of Urban Affairs. There are a total of 9 positions that existed in Municipal Affairs that were transferred to the new Department of Urban Affairs so that the net increase in actual posi­ tions is, not the 15 that is being referred to continu­ ously by the Member for St.

Norbert, but 1 O positions, that there are 4 individuals that worked previously in Municipal Affairs that are not working in the Department of Urban Affairs but there are 9 positions that were transferred from Municipal Affairs to Urban Affairs.

Monday, 10 May, 19 82 With respect to the general comments, I suppose we are close to rising, going into Private Members' Hour, but I think I adequately addressed them in respect to what benefit they'll have to the taxpayers of the City of Winnipeg. I think that question will be answered as the province is better and more affec­ tively able to deal with the issues that are affecting the City of Winnipeg and will stand the test of time, I suppose. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour is 4:3 0. We'll interrupt proceedings for Private Members' Hour. Committee will resume sitting again at 8 o'clock SUPPLY - ED UCATION MR.

CHAIRMAN, Phil Eyler (River East): We are con­ sidering the Estimates of the Department of Educa­ tion Item 3. (a), Financial Support Public Schools, School Grants and Other Assistance. The Member for Tuxedo. MR. FILMON: Mr . Chairman, I wonder if the Minister could indicate to us just what plans her government has for the continuation and/or adjustment or change to the current arrangements with respect to public funding for private schools. HON. MAUREEN HEMPHILL (Logan): Mr.

Chairman, I think I indicated in a previous question during ques­ tion period that the whole question of education fund­ ing was up for review; that review is under way and that it will include all components of funding includ­ ing aid to private schools. I would like to indicate that there has been - and I am quite happy to support all moves in this direction an increase in the shared­ service agreements between private schools and school divisions.

In times of tight resources and dec­ lining numbers of children I think we all agree that anytime better utilization of materials or resources or facilities or personnel can be maintained by co­ operative efforts between any groups and including private and public schools that I am quite happy to support that The private schools did receive the additional fund­ ing that was given this year for print and non print.

The same increase that went to the public schools for printed material was increased for the private schools and I'm also, I think, pleased to report that I think a significant move was made in an area that we knew was of importance to all the private schools and par­ ticularly the Hebrew Schools. When I came into office I inherited a major concern by those schools teaching the Hebrew language , because they were not being funded for the total $435 that was available for stu­ dents because of an

interpretation, Mr. Chairman, that suggested that some of the teaching that was taking place in the schools in Hebrew did not conform to the criterion requirements of the Department of Education. Therefore, they were funded on a partial basis. This information was brought to me not just by those teaching or responsible for the Hebrew Schools but by the Independent Schools Association who took up the cause and suggested that this was unfair. My department looked into it at considerable length and after a fairly major review we agreed with the position taken by the Association for Independent Schools.

We have agreed that the flexibility that is allowed in the public school system for teaching pro­ grams should be allowed in the private schools where we are funding them. We are now funding them to the full potential that they are able for all of their students that of $435 per student. This decision meant that we were making available approximately an additional $130,000 in the year 1982 that would not have been coming to those schools to provide their programs had I not made that decision. I think I'm suggesting in answer to the question, Mr.

Chairman, and I realize it's a fairly long one, is that I have made some moves since we took office to improve some of the support and some recognition in terms of sharing of resources, and treating and deal­ ing with the private schools in a fair and reasonable manner. We will continue to do that and we will review the whole process, the whole question of funding within our total education finance review. MR.

FILMON: Well, I'm firstly pleased that the Minis­ ter has indicated that the matter has not been decided upon in a negative fashion, that is, that her govern­ ment has not decided out-of-hand despite its pre­ vious opposition to support for private schools that it will immediately set forth to eliminate that support I'm also pleased to hear of the decision that has been arrived at with respect to the

interpretation of the regulations for funding for the Hebrew Schools and a few others, as I recall, that were involved in teaching some areas of the culture and the history of their language and race as part of the private school educa­ tion curriculum and were because of a rather narrow 2349 in my view -

interpretation of the regulations not able to be given the full amount of the $435.00.

That was a matter that had come to our attention in the latter stages of our administration and I for one was a part of a group on the political side that was reviewing the matter and certainly we arrived at the same conclusion that the Minister had, that there was an inequity and an unfairness to the Hebrew Schools there and that in the assessment of the effective pri­ vate schools what we have to keep paramount is that at the end of whatever given period of time , whether that's on a year-to-year basis or a sequential basis , that the students arrive at the same, at least an equi­ valent point in terms of their knowledge and under­ standing of the basic requirements of the curricula rather than whether or not they spend X number of hours or X number of days or X number of classes on this, that or the other things; that the yardstick has to be whether or not they are at least as well educated in terms of the requirements of the Department of Edu­ cation at any level, as are there brothers and sisters who are attending public schools.

How they accomp­ lish it in the private schools or how they accomplish it, in particular in parochial schools, ought not to be the question, but rather or not, if they accomplish it and if they are able to at least match the standards that they would have had they been required to attend public schools. That, in my view, is the basic bottom line for assessment of that kind of comparison and I am sure that the private schools' organization and those schools in particular who benefit from that decision of this administration will, indeed, be pleased with it as I

Monday, 10 May, 19 82 am sure we are, on this side, to hear that has been resolved. The Min ister, in discussing the question of public aid to pr ivate schools, alluded to the fact that she has responded in the House to questions and stated where the current position is at with respect to her government. She didn't go on to say what she did say in response to that question earlier. She added at that time the fact that the Estimates she inherited did not provide for increased funding to pr ivate schools.

As I understand the process, the Est imates didn't provide for increased fund ing to public schools either, but that certain polit ical decisions have to be made after one arrives at the judgments that would carry forth the area of need as established by the budgetary process of all the school divis ions. I mig ht indicate to her as well that Estimates that are provided by the staff of the Department of Education are being assembled by people who, in large measure if not totally, are not products of or having been involved with private school education in their own particular hi story.

The init iative itself to provide pub­ lic funding for private schools was not one that was recommended or in any way pushed by the Depart­ ment of Education staff. Rather, it was a polit ical initi­ ative and therefore the decis ion as to how it's going to be furthered and whether or not increased funding will be made available will undoubtedly be a political decision and not one that is likely to come as a result of initiative by people within her department because, the department, throughout its hi story and of a natu­ ral course is made up of people from the publ ic school educat ion system.

Therefore, they're not likely to bring forth a recommend ation to the Min ister with respect to increased fund ing or increased init iatives in priv ate school education.

So, lay on the table to the Min ister, that the decis ion ult imately, on what she and her government do to and with priva te school funding in this province is going to be a polit ical one and I suggest that she ought not to deflect it into a position where her department and the Estimates that they are putting together are what leads to the decis ion; rather it will be a polit ical deci­ sion and I hope that her government will consider the fact that the needs of those in priva te school educa­ tion in terms of finance, are mounting just as rapidly as those in the public sector are and she will have to take account of that when arriving at her decis ;on.

MRS. HEMPHILL: While there wasn't a question, will respond to some of the po ints made by the Hon­ ourable Member for Tuxedo. I quite both agree and recognize the points he made that this decis ion, as many others and, perhaps,

part icularly a decis ion like this. will be largely a political decision and not an administrative decis ion and that it would be for any government that was in office.

However, I also believe that the Estimates and the budget process that is normally in place takes about a year to go through and that I expect that I will, and that other Min isters would, give a reasonable degree of direction and spe­ cific direction to adm in istration and staff in any area where they wish to see a major change or they wish to see programs, because they will not bring in the ones that are on your agenda that are polit ical if you do not communicate to them.

I just make the point that I believe there was ample time during the preparation of this set of Est imates to have brought into play and consideration and direction, the views and attit udes of the government and have them reflected in that budget. The private school grants are outs ide of the Educa­ tion Support Program and therefore did not receive the autom atic 12.5-percent increase that was built into the program, but I suppose that both sides could have made a political decision to do so. MR.

FILMON: Yes, I'm sure that the Min ister can and does take respons ibility for that decision and I sug­ gest to her that it was not the right decis ion, so we'll leave it at that.

I wonder, in discussion of the overall financial sup­ port to public schools in the province, if the Min ister can confirm the figures that I have at my disposal from her init ial present ation and my calculations made from a myriad of tables and fact sheets that she has provided me with and that I have gained from various different announcements, and that is that the overall increase in funding required by publ ic schools in the province this year in these Estimates, is a total of $70.4 mill ion and that the total amount that this government has decided to put into public school education fund­ ing in this province this year is $42.5 mill ion, the dif­ ference of which is about $28 million - $27.9 mill ion, I suppose - which translates into an average increase throughout the province in mill rates on property taxes for school purposes, of 6 mills.

Is that the figure that I should have? MRS. HEMPHILL: I just heard part of the question. I heard a fair amount of the lead-up, Mr. Chai rman. Was the question a dir ect question? Did the amount of support that went in from the Provincial Government turn into an average mill rate increase - could the member rephrase it then or give it to me again? I'm sorry. MR. FILMON: Mr. Cha irman, my question was if my figures are correct the total amount of increased spending required by publ ic schools throughout the province this year will be $70.4 million.

The total amount of direct funding from the provincial coffers this year will be $42.5 million according to the Minis­ ter's open ing statement. Therefore, the difference, the shortfall that will have to be recouped through additions to the real property taxes of the province will be $28 million which I believe - this is the area that I stand to be corrected on because I'm not sure of the total assessment base - but I believe that $28 mill ion added on to the real property tax base will translate into an average of 6 mills. MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Chairman, the Member for Tuxedo was being cautious in putting out his figures because he wanted to make sure that they were cor­ rect and on this side, we wanted to make sure that we were confirming correct figures. I can say that the figures that the Member for Tuxedo gave are correct except that he did not include the $2-million grant to Winnipeg School Division. MR. FILMON: That would then mean that it's a $26- 2350

Monday, 10 May, 19 82 million shortfall and I'm now correcting my own fig­ ures in that I see that the total balanced assessment, education balanced assessment is $3.1 billion and if you divide $26 million by $3.1 billion, I think you get closer to 8 or 9 mills than you do to 6 mills then if that's correct, and I'm doing it right off the top, so again I stand to be corrected. MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I'm going to have to stop speaking when I should be listening. MR.

FILMON: We all have that problem and I realize that having been through the process from the other side, the Minister is trying to be briefed on the answers by her staff and at the same time I'm asking you questions. So, I believe that if we take the shortfall of $26 million, divide it by the education-balanced assessment of $3.1 billion that we would then arrive at an average mill rate increase that would be closer to something like 9 mills than the 6 mills I said initially. Is that correct? MRS. HEMPHILL: It's 8.9 mills on farm and residential. MR.

FILMON: So, the average increase across the board on farm and residential throughout the Prov­ ince of Manitoba for the increased school costs this year is going to be 8.9 mills for school purposes, of which 4.2 mills is the amount that the Minister has added to the education support levy in order to fulfil! the requirements mandated by the Education Sup­ port Program in he province. So, the other average increase of about 4.7 mills will be on special levy and that will make up the amount. Is that correct? MRS. HEMPHILL: 3.7 mills for the supplements. MR.

FILMON: The Minister shook her finger at me and I assume that meant that she was going to be coming forth with more information. I don't believe that the figure of 3. 7 is correct. The Member for St. Johns is giving me a hard time -( Interjectio n) - they can't take that away from you, eh? MRS. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, the average mill rate reduction, because of the supplemental program was 3.7 mills and I think it's important here to com­ municate once again what the mill rate increase would have been had we not brought in the supple­ mental program; that would have been a 12.6 mill rate increase.

As a result of the supplemental program, 30 school divisions and 4 school districts out of the 54 received enough supplemental money, enough money through the two supplemental programs to totally wipe out the effect of the 4.2 mill rate increase, that is, 34 out of the 54 all received some funding; 34 out of the 54 received enough to reduce the impact of the mill rate increase coming out of the Educational Sup­ port Program completely. I must add, Mr.

Chairman, that those increases and the money went to the school divisions who were in the most disadvantaged position because of low assessment basis and low per pupil expenditures. If I could just take one minute, Mr. Chairman, to point out the disparities and the inequity between