ISSN 0542- 5492 Third Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 33 Elizabeth 11 Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 7 A - 2:00 p.m., MONDAY, 23 APRIL, 1984. Printed by the Office of the Queens Printer. Province of Manitoba

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Hon. Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, Hon. John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Q.c.,·Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Hon. Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon.

Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J. Frank KOSTYRA,Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Hon. Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. AI MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, Hon. John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER,Hon.Y� SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Hon. Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKI� Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Thompson La Ver end rye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ellice Churchill St. Boniface Aiel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. Jame s St. Johns Morris Robli n-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Glad stone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnk ster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Fiin Flon lnterlake Lac du Bonnet St.

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LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 23 April, 1984. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Comm ittees . Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . Notices of Motion . . . Intr oduction of Bills . ORAL QUESTIONS MPIC - general insurance re civil servants MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation.

The question is, can the Min ister indicate whether or not a decision has been made to grant civil servants preferential treatment in dealing with MPIC for their general insur ance on their cottages and homes? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Minis ter of Housing. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The question was whether or not a decision had been made by the Mini ster. The Minister does not normally interfere into M PlC commercial activities to determine whether or not a potential client is acceptable or not. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, then according to reports on the weekend tha t ind icate tha t prefe rential arrangement has been entered into between M PlC and the Manitoba Government Employees Association that will allow civil servants to get their general insur ance on a preferred basis through M PlC , was that done then without consultation with the Min ister? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, that would be a normal commercial transaction in which the Min ister does not interfere. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister indicate whether or not he has looked into whether or not this would create a loss of jobs on the part of small individual insurance agents throughout the province who now are unab le to deal with their clients in the normal commercial basis because of this global arrangement that has been entered into by MPIC and the Manitoba Government Emplo yees Association? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I haven't received any report on this proposal, but I certainly will be asking for one. I don't imagine it will have a very serious impact in terms of creating unemployment in the insurance sector. MR. G.

FILMON: Well, Mr. Speaker, at a time when small business, in particular , is struggling, at a time 143 when the Minister's government's own Throne Speech indicates a desire and a commitment on the part of the government to support the efforts of small business throughout the province, is he not concerned that this kind of global arrangement, this deal that was entered into by M PlC and the MGEA, will in fact have a negative impact on the small agents throughout our province, who obviously are an employer of staff who rely on this for their business? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: As indicated, I will be asking for a report on this. However, I don't see any difference between what is being proposed by the Manitoba Government Employees Association than what has been proposed by many other groups in decades and decades of the history of Manitoba. I see the proposed arrangement between Manitoba Pu blic In surance and the Ma nitoba Go vernment Empl oyees Association as an ind ication of th e confidence that the MGEA has expressed in the quality of service being provided by the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation and in the integrity of the corporation, the financial integrity.

MR. G. FILMON: Well, Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that this is a further government intrusion into the affairs of the private sector, in view of the fact that this is not a normal business sort of company, it is one that is the only game in the province, so to speak, with respect to auto insur ance, and has some monopoly jurisdiction, and in view of the fact that this government is working towards further damaging intrusions into the private sector, can the Minister now indicate whether or not he has any plans, or MPIC has any plans, to restrict the number of agents who will be allowed to represent Autopac throughout Manitoba? HON.

J. BUCKLASCHUK: First of all, I would like to comment on the Leader of the Opposition's comment that this is government intrusion. As I indicated, government has nothing to do with this; this is a commercial transaction between the Manitoba Government Employees Association and the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation. Secondly, this is not an abnormal situation, it is quite normal. MPIC is competitive with the other private sector fire insurance companies in Manitoba. I am sure that the Manitoba Government Employees Association could go to any other general insur ance corporation and come up with a proposal.

The fact that they are dealing with MPIC would indicate that they are quite satisfied with the arrangements that they've been able to make. Lastly, is there any thought being given to restrict the numb er of agents in Manitoba? -the answer to that unequivocably is no. Health Sciences Centre - personnel MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Gar ry.

Monday, 23 April, 1984 MR. L. SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Honourable Mi nister of Health. I would ask him whether his office or the Manitoba Health Services Commis sion has been asked by the Health Sciences Centre Board and administration for any help with their current problems with respect to admi nistrative personnel and loss of top admini strative personnel or, if not, has the Minister's office or the Health Services Commission undertaken or launched any initiative on its own or on their own to assist in that process? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to say that the question that I'm very concerned is that there has been representation not by any official group at this time from the Health Sciences Centre. My answer to them was that if they wanted us to get involved, to investigate, that I would sugge st that we have a formal request. lt is a very difficult thing. Yo u have a board also and the board has the responsibility for the staff. I think it's a very difficult thing for a Mi nister of Health, without the invitation of the board, unless there is something that is definitely wrong.

In fact, I think the question just before was dealing with these things about government involvement and it is something that I intend to discuss with the chairman of the board and other members unofficially. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I take it from the Minister's answer that there has been no formal request as such from the Health Sciences Centre Board for that kind of assist ance, but has the Health Services Com mission itself recommended to the Minister that some Initiative be taken to assist the Health Sciences Centre Board and admi nistration with its current proble ms? HON. L. DESJARDINS: No, Mr.

Speaker. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister confirm that some of the studies that are under way are aimed at decentralizing the administrative authority now vested in the president of the Health Sciences Centre and that some of the presidential duties and responsibilities would be redistributed among different senior personnel? Can the Minister confirm that report? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I haven't seen that report but that is my understanding, exactly as it was stated. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, can the Minister advise the Hous e whether there is any credence to the suggestion to the unofficial report that thought is being given to breaking the Health Sciences Centre down into four or more or less individual hospitals, such as was the case before the unification of the centre some 12 years ago, breaking it down into three or four individual hospitals, Children's, Rehabilitation, etc.? HON. L. DESJARDINS: This is a difficult question to answer.

I suspe ct that the member wants to put his ideas on the reco rd, because I just finished saying that I haven't seen the report as yet, so nothing has been done. There is certainly no decision at this time. I would hope that somebody will request that we assist them, be it the board or the medical profess ion at the Health Sciences Centre and, if not, we'll have to look after sending this report. I guess we'll have to certainly at least discuss it with them. K-Cycle Engines MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Technolo gy.

I ask him whether he has yet heard from the Federal Minis ter for Small Business, the Honourable David Smith, on the subject of K-Cycle Engines and their debenture and the action being taken by the Federal Business Development Bank, all of which I raised with him in this House some time ago? I'm not sure whether he's ever had any conta ct or response from the Federal Government on that question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I regret to inform the member and the House that there has not been any reply to my initial telex to the Federal Minister respo nsible for the Federal Business Bank, and Indeed last week I sent a further telex to him demanding that he respond and indicate whether or not he would be prepared to direct that bank to relook at that particular situation.

I have also met with the main principals behind K-Cycle to look at ways and means of assisting him in the current difficulties, but a direct answer -no, at the present time there has been no response from the Federal Minister, nor am I aware of any change in attitude of the Federal Business Development Bank. MR. L. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I missed part of the Mi nister's answer. I'm not sure whether he said he had sent a seco nd telex to - (Interjection) - that being the case, Mr. Speaker, could I ask him two questions: (1) how long ago did that seco nd telex go?

And (2), would he give some thought to going beyond that now and dealing directly by means of a telephone call with the Federal Minister and asking him for some respo nse? 144 HON. E. KOSTYRA: I ind icated, I guess it wasn't heard, that the second telex went out approximately one week ago and if there is no reply to that I will look at other means to contacting the Federal Min ister and eliciting a reply from him with respect to this issue and this question. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Our rules require any member wishing to speak to rise in his place. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L.

SHERMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, a final supplem entary. Can the Minister advise whether . . . MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: I don't know whether we've got things straightened out for the Honourable Member

Monday, 23 April, 1984 for lnkster for the remainder of the day's sitting or not. Can the Mi nister advise, on a final supplemen tary, Mr. Speaker , whether he has met with any officials here in his department, with officials of the Federal Business Deve lopment Bank, and for the present principals in K-Cycle Engines, with a view to working out a loan guarantee that would enable the current expertise mana gement and techn ology to remain here in Manitoba? HON. E. KOSTYRA: As I indicated, I have met with the principals of K-Cycle to explore possible options with them.

Staff has attempted to contact and discuss this issue with the bank, but the bank has taken a position and that is why I tried to contact the Federal Min ister. The bank has taken the position that this is a comm ercial transaction between that bank and that individual, tnd they have not been prepared to share information and discussion with representat ives of the province.

As a result of that, I took the action of contacting the Federal Minister, asking him to intervene directly , or to give direction to the bank to involve the province in those discussions so that we could explore options with respect to keeping K-Cycle, keeping that technology here in the province. Lakeshore Health District - administration of MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speak er, I direct a question to the Honourable Min ister of Health.

A moment ago the Minister of Health just indicated to my coll eague that the government is not prepared to interfere in the admin istrative affairs of the Health Sciences Centre.

My question to the Minister is why is he so eager to interfere in the admin istrative affairs of the Lakeshore Health District and its newly-elected board of directors which recently concluded that in an effort to live with ever-constricting budgets that it is in their interest to provide food services by contracting out that the Minister has threatened that district with di rect inter ference and/or worse, has he in fact threatened them to withdraw from their grants any savings affected by this move? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Health. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: First of all, I did not at any time say that we wouldn't act if need be at the Health Sciences Centre. I said, but at this time we hadn't had any request to be involved, and that we would discuss this with the commission. - (I nterjection) - Beg your pardon? I didn't hear that, I can't answer it, I'm sorry. What I did state, in the other instance, very clearly, that it is a policy of gove rnment, the same as we do not belie ve in profit motivated personal care homes or hospitals in this field at all and that's the policy of the gover nment.

That was stated very clearly and I wouldn't mind discussing that or debating that dur'ing my Estimates with my honourable friend. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, the Minister is well aware that these private firms are employing union people, 145 paying union CUPE wages. Is the Mi nister really telling the elected members of the Lakeshore Health District that they cannot avail thems elves of the management expertise that obviously makes it possible for them to, at fully unionized CUPE wages, provide food services at a savings to the health district, that he will intervene? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: I think that the directions are very clear. We said that before this could be done that there should be discussions with the emplo yees. Many times we're presented with supposedly a big saving and it doesn't materialize. That's one of the things and, second ly, before this is done they should discuss it and get the okay from the commission and that wasn't done in this case at all. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, a final supplement ary question. Has the duly elected directors or Board of the Lakeshore Health District requested the Minister to interfere in this instance? HON. L.

DESJARDINS: No, but the duly elected members of this Cabinet has . . . MR. H. ENNS: The Health Sciences Centre hasn't had to eith er. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Do you have the answer or did you ask a question? The duly elected members of this Cabinet also, who have the responsibility for policy and financing of the hospital, feel that in these times especially, the idea is to protect jobs as much as possible, not start cutting down on jobs and restraint at this time. This is why we ... A MEMBER: it's unreal. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: Well, it might be in the minds of some of the people, but it is the pol icy, the same as the mem bers of the opposition have a policy that they would condone private personal care homes and probably private hospitals and we don't do that here. Corporate income tax revenues MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for lnkster. MR. D. SCOTT: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I must apologi ze my affinity earlier for my old seat, it brings many fond memories. Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Finance, and it's in response to a question a week or so ago by the financial wizard from the opposition . MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. D. SCOTT: . . . incurring the likelihood that the Department of Finance away over-estimated the revenues in the corporation income tax for the fiscal year just past. Would the Min ister of Finance please Indicate to this House whether or not last year's Estimates of Revenue, which was some two times the actual receipts and revenues for corporation income taxes from the year

Monday, 23 April, 1114 1982-83 was in fact an accurate or a near-accurate estimate of the estimates for corporation income tax for the year 1983-84? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. - (Interjection) - No, I didn't just happen to have it written out. What I did happen to have is a copy of the galleys for Hansard for that particular day, where there was an Imp ress ion left tha t we were est imating an approxima tely ten times greater increase in revenue for corporate income tax than the Federal Govern ment was estimating.

I just want to ·make it very clear to the members of this Legislature that inde ed the estimate that we put into our Revenue Estimates at the beginning of 1983- 4 was derived specifically from the Federal Government as they always have been in the past under our government and, I believe, un de r the previous govern ment.

As to whether we are anticipating we are going to meet that so-called 97 percent increase, our projections right now are certainly that we will be on target and inde ed a little above target in that area, and although the Federal Government has estimated a 9.7 percent increase over all, this is just another indication of the strength of the Manitoba economy as opposed to the previous year. Hospitals - administration of MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

My question Is for the Min ister of Health, and follows upon the questions of my colleague from Lakeside. Did the Min ister indicate that where we have a duly elected and appointed public board running a hospital that he is not willing to allow them the flexibility to determine whether or not they can provide the services more efficiently or more eff ectively on a contract-out basis than they could on the basis of having their own staff? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: More effect ively is a question of opinion.

I would imagine that the people running the hospitals in the United States would think that they are much more efficient, because efficiency is measured by the dollar sign out there. it seems very effic ient if you see everybody supposedly sleeping, being put under with drugs, it's a lot cheaper, you can save on staff. Well, that is not the kind of service and care that we want to give the people of Manitoba. We have much better care here than the free -enterprising system of the United States.

I think that we will all recognize that; I don't think anybody would want to change with the system that they have in the United States. Furthermore, a couple of weeks ago, it was announced that the field of health was one of the priorities, they have received more than the general guidelines for the government. One of the main reasons in this day is to protect jobs. This is not 146 the way to protect jobs, to go on that system, and it is not more efficient. - (Interjection) - No. This is jobs in the ... SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, ohl HON. L. DESJARDINS: The situation is, Mr.

Speaker, that we do •lOt consider it Interference at all. it is a general policy of this gove rnment, and I think we have every right to do so and we intend to exercise that right. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that, unlike the situations in the United States, these hospitals are not privately owned; in view of the fact that the organization that would provide the food services and maintenance services and so on would use the existing unioni zed staff; in view of the fact that all that is at stake here is whether or not the services can be provided more efficiently or more effectively by having proper management services and supervision . MR. SPEAKER: Question. MR. G.

FILMON: . . . why is the Min ister overru ling the wishes of the duly elected and appointed public board officials who know their situation and know their community and know their people? Why is he overru ling them? HON. L. DESJARDINS: If this is so obvious that this would be Improvement, why did they refuse first of all? At no time did I say that under no conditions would that be permitted. I said, No. 1, they discuss it with the staff.

No. 1, with the staff, then the union, if they're so sure they should discuss it with the staff and give the information to the staff; No. 2, to discuss it with the commission, which they do everything else. Any budg et that's prepared is discussed with the commission. Those two things were the main things. At no time did we say that under no circumstances. We will not let this principle, the principle that you belie ve in, the system in the United States . MR. G. FILMON: That's not what we said. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: That's not what you said, but awhile ago you were encouraging proprietary nursing homes, that's exactly what you said. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! Fires in Manitoba MR. SPEAKEk: Order please. The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Mi nister of Natural Resources. In view of the extremely volatile fire conditions within the province, can the Mini ster indicate whether he is considering a general ban on all open fires within the province? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nou rable Minister of Natural Resources.

Monday, 23 April, 1984 HON. A. MACKLING: Ye s, Mr. Speak er, that is certainly under consideration. I want to report to the House that there are 60 fires burning, 35 under control, 21 being held, two not under control and two wher e no action is now required. None of them, to date, have been life­ threatening. They don't involve forests as yet to any extent, they are largely brush and grass fires, but nevertheless are serious. We have, as has been done in the past, given general cautions to people about burning, indicating that if fires do get out of control they can be subject to the loss that results.

There are 310 people presently actioning these fires, involving seven helicopters and two water bombers at the present time. MR. A. DRIEDGER: A supplementary question to the same Min ister, Mr. Speaker. Can the Min ister assure this House and the people of Manitoba that all the government equipment is available to the municipalities and LGDs as well, which are tending or dealing with many of these fires right now? They're not necessarily of the forest fire extreme, but they are in the local areas and the local fire departments have extreme difficulty handling them.

Is the government equipment available to these mun icipalities and LGDs to fight their local fires? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, yes. Subject to the demands that we have in respect to the nume rous fires burning throughout the province, yes, we do go to the assistance of municipalities to suppress fires. Wild meat in restaurants MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speak er, to the same Min ister. I have another question regarding the conflicting reports between himself and his officials rega rding the sale of wild meat in restaurants in Winnipeg.

Can the Min ister indicate whether there is an investigation going on as to the alleged sale of wild meat in restaurants in Winnipeg? HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I am . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. A. MACKLING: I have asked staff to confirm and update to me the extent of any inquiries in respect to the sale of unauthorized meat. lt is my understanding from senior staff that the report that appeared in the Free Press had no basis in fact. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Minister .

In view of the conflict of reports, could the Minister indicate why one of his staff made that kind of statement to the press, or whether there is a possibility of some consideration that an investigation is not warranted? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I won't rise to the inte rjec tions of the Hono urable Member for Lakeside. 147 I know that he would like to confuse the issue, this issue, as well as many others. There is ongoing and serious concern with respect to poaching; there has been in this province for many many years.

There are always concerns about how the illegal meat is handled, how it is marketed, and there is speculation rife as to how that takes place. We have had one prosecution in respect to a restaurant about two years ago. My senior staff indicate that there are no restaurants under investigation at the present time, no restaurants under surveillanc e. There is probability, possibility, that some illegal meat may be diverted In this manner, but cert ainly we have no precise knowledge of that. We certainly are making full inquiries in respect to the statements that were made.

Perhaps it was a misunderstanding on the part of the reporter who took that story, I haven't verified that yet, Mr. Speaker. McKenzie Seeds MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member · for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speak er, my question is for the Min ister of Finance. lt is almost six months now since the fiscal year of A. E. McKenzie. Can the Minister advise the House when the annual report of that company will be tabled? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, there must be some extraordi nary circumstances that prevent this report from being tabled within a period of six months.

Can the Min ister be more specific in terms of when this can be tabled, or what sort of information is in that report that prevents the government from tabling it? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. B. RANSOM: Does the Minister have the report? Is the report completed? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Ye s, Mr. Speaker. Brandon University Building Fund MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Min ister of Education. The President of Brandon Uni versity Foundation, Mr.

Beamish, is reported as saying that donors to the Brandon Uni versity Building Fund have asked for approxi mately $125,000 to be refunded and that two major possible contributions are being put on hold because of the controversy at Brandon University. Can the Min ister advise the House whether the group of left-wing radicals who are now in control of Brandon University will be asked to make this money up or will the government be making it up? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. Order please, order please.

Monday, 23 April, 1984 HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I can remember rising in this House to discuss this issue in the last Session and indicating at the time that we were talking about the size of the building that was going in and that was requested, and the ability of Brandon University to raise the money for a $6 million building that they requested when the members in opposition were in government was of considerable concern to me because they were having difficulty raising the amount of money that they projected they would be able to raise.

This difficulty has been going on for several years because they have been trying to raise money for several years, so I think it is misleading in a time when it is difficult for everybody to raise money these days to put the blame for the inability for raising money on the activities that were happening at the Brandon University.

I would also like to point out to the member opposite that things at Brandon University have been very quiet and running very well, and if the members opposite would stop trying to make political hay at the expense of the university then they could get on with the business of educating the students. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mounta in . MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, perhaps the Minister of Finance and the Attorney-General would like to rise and put their comments on the record.

The Minister of Finance is making comments from his seat about allegations but he isn't prepared to table the financial report for McKenzie Seeds that he's had in his possession for months now. Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Education report to the House whether or not . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. B. RANSOM: . . . the Brandon University Foundation is now finding it easier to raise money under the group of little revolutionaries that are in charge of the university at this time? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Attorney-General, Dept. of - maintenance payments MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Attorney-General. In recent editions, two national news magazines have praised the Manitoba system of maintenance enforcement introduced in 1980 as a model system for the country. Could the Attorney-General advise whether there is agreement with the Federal Government and other Provincial Governments to establish a national registry and to gain access to Federal Government 148 information in order to assist in the collection of outstanding maintenance payments? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON.

R. PENNER: First of all, Mr. Speaker, I'm very happy to confirm something which was implied in the question, namely, that Manitoba is a leader with respect to many areas of Family Law under several governments, including the government when the Member for St. Norbert was Attorney-General. I think he did a very good job in that area and we're continuing, and Manitoba for that reason is a leader in Canada in Family Law and in enforcement of maintenance judgments.

Indeed, under the head of our Family Law Department, Robyn Diamond, we have made submissions to the Federal Government, and more particularly at a conference of officials held here in the month of March, attended by representatives of all the Departments of the Attorneys-General where Family Law matters are concerned and where enforcement of maintenance judgments are generally handled, and the Manitoba system, which has been reported on favourably, Is now being looked at in terms of a national registry.

I'm happy to be able to say that here again in Family Law in Manitoba, not just this government, Manitoba shows the lead. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, In view of the estimates that the system saved the provincial taxpayers some $650,000 in welfare payments last year, could the Attorney-General indicate whether he has attempted to continue, as we did, and perhaps hopefully has been more successful in persuading other provincial Attorneys-General to assist in the enforcement of custody orders and maintenance orders in other provinces? HON. R.

PENNER: Yes, here again I'm able to report that as recently as within the last two months we have written a strong letter with respect to this situation to the Minister of Justice federally and copied it to all Attorneys-General asking for stronger enforcement of maintenance and custody orders. Slowly , bit by bit, province by province, other provinces have come along.

There are one or two provinces where we still have some difficulties - notably Alberta and Quebec - and we're hoping that they will come along into the national system of protecting the orders, enforcing the orders of other provincial jurisdictions with respect to both maintenance and custody. Lands, Florence - baby abandonment MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have one question for the Minister of Community Services. In view of the fact that one, Florence Lands, Mr.

Speaker, is being charged with abandoning a young two-year-old boy and in view of the fact that the Children's Aid Society have returned that boy to his mother, could the Minister indicate whether or not any special attention or precautions will be taken through her department to ensure that young boy is adequately

Monday. 23 April, 1984 cared for, at least until the charges have been disposed of? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, in such a case the Childr en's Aid people do work in close consultation with the pol ice and you may be assured that the well­ being of the youngster is of prime importance. Rossburn, R.M.- livestock carcasses MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Hono urable Minister of Natural Resources. Mr.

Speak er, re garding the widespread distribution of livestock carcasses in the R.M. of Rossburn for bear bait, is the Min ister satisfied that the health of any or all citizens in that area has not been endangered as a result of this terrible practice of luring bears with these carcasses that's been going on in the area? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, to the honourable member, to the best of our knowledge there is no health hazard occasioned by the use of animal carcasses for bear baiting.

However, we are concerned about the manner in which some of this bear baiting is taking place. Far too many baits have been set using large amounts of waste animal meat, whole animals piled up as an inducement to the bears and we have passed regulations. We are going to be much stiffer in respect to enforcing those regulations henceforth. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I thank the honourable Min ister. Does the Min ister agree with the opinion of Dr.

Peter Warner from the Manitoba Department of Health who says that the health of the area could be affected as a result of the distribution of these carcasses? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. lt is not a proper question to ask a Minis ter whether he agrees with some outside person. Perhaps the honourable member would wish to rephrase his question. The Honourable Mem ber for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I wonder if the Honourable Minister then is prepared to commu nicate with Dr.

Peter Warner , Mani toba Department of Health, who says that the distribution of animal livestock carcasses of this nature is a danger to the health of the community. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr . Speaker , yes, to the honourable member, I am prepared to communicate 149 with anyone who has a concern in respect to any aspect of the responsibility that I have in respect to resources. I am assured by staff that there is not a significant or any health hazard.

However, we do not believe that diseased animal carcasses should be used, we don't know what these animals have died of and we don't think that the people who set these baits should be permitted to haul carcasses and leave them in the way they have. As I have indicated, we are taking steps to ensure that there will not be a duplication of this kind of thing in the future. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The tim e for Oral Questions has expired. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Speaker, before you call Orders of the Day, I wish to make a brief statement with regard to House business for the coming weeks. I regret I was unable to do so on Thu rsday at the close of the final week or at the close of last week, but with respect to this week, as has been previously announced, we expect the debate on the Throne Speech to be concluded late tomorrow afternoon, the Budget tomorrow evening and the House to be adjourned on Wednesday. Mr.

Speaker, I wish to call the Standing Comm ittee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources for Thursday of this week at 10:00 a.m. for pu rposes of considering the report of the Manitoba Public Ins uranc e Corporation, and again on next Tuesday, May 1st, to either continue consideration of that report or to begin consideration of the Manitoba Telephone System Annual Report, and a further meeting of the same committee to consider the same two reports, depending on what stage that consideration is at at that point, on Thursday, May 3rd.

So that's Public Utilities and Natural Resources on MPIC and MTS, this Thursday the 26th, and again on the 1st and 3rd of May, all hearings at 10:00 a.m. As well, Mr.

Speaker, the Standing Committee on Public Accounts will meet next Tuesday, a week tomorrow, May 1st, at 10:00 a.m. to consider the REiport of the Provincial Auditor and the Public Accounts, and will meet again for the same purpose on Thur sday, May 3rd, again at 10:00 a.m., and on Tuesday, May 8th, on the assumption that the two meetings next week will be adequate for the purpose as announced with regard to Public Accounts, the Standing Commit tee on Economic Development will meet to consider the report of A.E. McKenzie Co. Ltd.

That report may be delayed in consideration depending on how long it takes to consider the Reports of the Provincial Auditor and the Public Accounts, but tentatively scheduled for the 8th. l'll leave it, Mr. Speaker, to the Clerks to decide which of the two committee rooms will be used for each of the committees, since we'll be sitting two committees simultaneously next week on Tuesday and Thur sday. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: A further question for clarification, I take it that the scheduled meeting of the the Rules Comm ittee is standing for Tuesday, tomorrow.

Monday, 23 April, 1984 A further qu estion, Mr . Speaker, surely the Hono urable House Leader will prev ail upon his Minister of Finance to ensure that the Annual Report of McKenzie Seeds will be available to members of the opposition in due time for consideration. HON. A. ANSTETT: Ye s, Mr. Speaker , my apologies for not noting that the previously scheduled meeting of the Rules Commit tee will be tomorrow morning at 10:00 a. m., and I will convey to the Min ister of Finance, my respected colleague, the concerns of members opposite - and I share those concerns - that the Report of A.E.

McKenzie be in members' hands prior to the meeting of the committee. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MR. SPEAKER: Order please. On the proposed motion of the Hono urable Member for Wolsel ey, and the amendment thereto proposed by the Hon ourable Leader of the Opposition, the Honour able Member for Elmwood has 40 minutes. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to begin by wishing you well on your difficult duties as Speaker of this Legislature and hope that there is a smoother passage than .there was for the past nine to twelve months. Mr.

Speaker , I sat here, like everybody else, listening to the Speech from the Throne which seemed to be interminable, seemed to contain very little, was a disappointment, and failed to tackle the problems facing Manitobans at this point in our history. Mr. Speak er, I think that in a way it accurately reflected the condition of the government, a govern ment which is shell-shocked, enerva ted , dull and li stless, unimaginative, clearly on the run, defensive as opposed to the first couple of years in office where the government was active, seeking to accomplish things, setting goals and striving towards them.

We now come to the second part or the second half of the admin istration and it is in a sorry condition. Mr. Sp eaker , we lis tened to this bragg ing and posturing about the job creation accomplishments of the government. Mr. Speaker , if you analyse what sort of jobs are available to Manitobans in the time of the Pawley admin istration, I think that most of them fall into four categories. First of all, if you worked for an ad agency, you have a chance at gainful employment and high profits.

Second ly, if you are a bilingual teacher, you will probably be able to find employment in the school system through the Min ister of Education. Mr. Speaker , if you are a bilingual civil servant, they will either find a job for you or they will create one, and If there isn't one available today, stick around, there may be one tomorrow because the promise is and the direction is that new opportunities will be available in that area. Finally, Mr.

Speaker , if you are a party hack, if you are a person who has served the party and wants to work for a Min ister , there are qu ite a few new opportunities that were not available before. Most of us have seen the large number of New Democrats who 150 are now populating this building as special assistants and executive assistants, and assistants to the assistants, etc., for these are the areas, these are the opportunities that are available, but for the average Manitoban, the person who wants a job, needs a job, a young person looking for work, it's a pretty bleak picture.

I've spokAn recently to a number of people who have come to me, people who have been laid off or plants have closed and so on and they look to the government and they don't see any opportunities whatsoever for them in this provi nce at this particular time. - (In terjec tion) - Well, that's true. They could manufacture rain gauges or something like that because there's a new opportunity for manufacturing there. If the government had done something dramatic, like remove the payroll tax, then I think they would have had our support. They may do that tomor row night.

The Leader of the Official Opposition is optimistic that ther e could be something dramatic anno unced tomorrow and that would, in fact, be the most dramatic announcement that I could see . Mr. Speaker, the government said, the House Leader said before we got going, that he expected a quiet Session or was lt that he wanted a quiet Session or was it that he needed a quiet Session so that some healing could go on, not only in the province but In his savaged mind - not savage mind, Mr. Speaker - savaged mind.

The government Is In a state of shell shock and they really want nothing more than to come into the Session, sneak into the Session, sneak out of the Sessi on, slip into the Session, slip out of the Session, and all we can say is, we'll see . I think all mem bers on this side can say is it depends on what new targets are presented , whether it's shooting fish in a barrel or whether it's a difficult moving target or whether there are things that will be done that will garner not only the support of the Official Opposition but of the people in general. Mr.

Speaker, the Jobs Fund to me, which I think will be examined in great length, is no more than more money for more adver tising and those jobs that are created tend to be of the kind that I mentioned, very helpful to the advertising agencies, very helpful to the government in attempting to publicly have its Image shone, glossed, polished, but not very useful to the people of this province. What is the theme of this year's Throne Speech? lt's hard to tell. One theme is wife beating and wife abuse. The government's going to do some thing there. We ll, is that the theme of the government?

Is that THE program that the government is going to go to the people on and then next year they're going to promote a policy to protect husbands from husband abuse or husband beating? Is that the sort of program - do half this year, do half the next, it's going to win votes, ensure the re-election of the admin istration? I don't think so, Mr. Speaker, I don't. think so. Mr. Speaker , last day the Member for lnkster made his speech. Now ordinarily I would ignore anything the Member for lnkster said.

He is, without question, I will say one thing personal to him, he does not know - not only does he not know where his seat is, but he does not know what heckling is; and I have sat here and watched him scream at the opposition for two years in the mistaken belief that screa ming at the opposition

Monday, 23 April, 1984 is heckling. Mr. Speak er, that is the opposite of heckling. Heckling is something that should be witty or should be, on occasion, cutting or should be, on occasion, a ref utation, should be the perfect squelch. There are people in this House who are good at heckling; there are people who are masters at this art. I think the former Leader of the Conservative Party, the former Premier of Manitoba, is an expert in this area.

So is the Member for Fort Garry, so is the Attorney-General on occasion, and so are others who sometimes use this as a high art and part of the political process, but heckling is not scr eaming your guts out at the opposition. That is what it is not, Mr. Speaker, and you know, however misguided the Member for lnkster is, who has now fled the Chamber, he has been encouraged in this approach. Many times I've seen colleagues from the front benches go to him, slip him a note, but encourage him, tell him what a terrific job he has been doing, Mr. Speak er.

I think this is misguiding a young, impressionable member of the Legislature, setting him on the wrong path. Mr. Speaker , what I want to deal with though is a remark made by the Member for lnkster and one that I think is the new approach taken by the government in regard to those who oppose the policies and the language policies of this particular admin istration; and in so doing they have done irreparable harm to the province because we listened for a long time about how anyone, in effect, who was criticizing the govern ment.

I'm not going to deal with the content here but I'm going to deal with the form of the deba te and the attitude taken by many members of the gover nment, that if you are against the government's language proposals, then you are a bigot. That's the old line. That was the line that we heard in this Chamber and out there over and over and over and over again and there was more said than that, but I'll give you the latest, Mr. Speaker. For example, the Prem ier, on February 19, called the Conservatives extremists and fear mongers - or as he would say it, "fear mungers" - so, Mr.

Speaker , that's what he called the Conservatives. The House Leader said the opposition is associating with extremists and he labelled them as "blackguards." - (Interje ction) ­ That's coming. Frances Russell, who spent a year on this subject, on February 8th, bemoans how the language extremists hurt the province and the nation.

Then we had, of course, the worst, which was a compendium of remarks in the Sun on February 8th, compiled by George Stephenson, about some of the language used in the House which is pretty pathetic; and he says, it's a House infested with "rats, liars and sleaze bags." I've never heard the word "sleazy" used more in my entire life than in this Chamber. I think it's the new political word in the Manitoba Legislature. Every thing is sleazy, and I think some young child listening to our debates might confuse us with one of the Seven Dwarfs.

There's Sleepy and Sne ezy and Sleazy and Dopey and Doe and all those other colourful characters, but sleazy, that's the new buzz word of the Pawley Admin istration, particularly coming from the Attorney-General and the Min ister of Finance. So then people wor ry, as Lloyd Axworthy and George Forest worry, in the Brandon Sun on February 14th, 151 they're worried about lasting divisions. Mr. Speaker, who is running around creat ing this kind of an environment? Who is running around blackening a whole segment of our population? So it's the word, bigot. Now we have the latest. We have the new addition.

The word "bigot" has been used so much that it's wearing a bit thin. Now we have the argument put by the Member for lnk ster that it's the Ku Klux Klan that is running the show, that some character in British Columbia made a comment that they had some role to play in terms of the 50,000 people who signed petitions and sent in coupons to Manitoba Grassroots that one or more of them was a member of the Ku Klux Klan.

Then you can see this terrific faulty logic at work on the part of the Member for lnkster and other government members that, ah ha, some members of Grassroots are Ku Klux Klanners according to some person out there in British Columbia, and some other hysterical type out in Toronto who heard that somebody in Vancouver said something, so therefore one or two people were members of the Ku Klux Klan ·a nd they are members of Grassroots; therefore, Grassroots is a Ku Klux Klan organization. Mr. Speaker , is that pathetic? Is that pathetic or isn't it?

Is the fact that the SFM contains a lot of ze alots and people who are running around screaming for the rights that they have had restored to them, screaming for more jobs, demanding new rights and new services and new privile ges, are they representative of all the French-speaking Manitobans? No, Mr. Speaker, they are not.

They are respresentative of the militant wing of the militant group of a small portion of French-speaking Manitobans, and if someone came up with evidence that said that one person or two people in the SFM were found as child molesters - they had criminal records - would someone then start to argue that all members of that organization fall into that pathetic category? We ll, Mr. Speaker, that is the kind of logic that we are getting from some member s of the other side. Mr.

Speaker, it wasn't Grant Russell and it wasn't the Member for Elmwood and it wasn't the Member for Charle swood and it wasn't anybody on this side that I am aware of that has brought out some of the extremists on the right wing, because there are people from the far left spectrum to the far right spectrum who are involved and interested and follow this whole deba te that has been going on. Mr.

Speake r, it wasn't a member on this side that brought out the right-wing extremists, it was the Attorney-General of Manitoba, Roland Penn er, that brought the extremists out of the woodwork and into the debate, because of the way in which the whole issue was handled, because of the fact that the Attorney-General would not listen to the people, would not listen to rea son, would not listen to any amendment, insisted - along with the new Ho use Leader and the backing of Cabinet and caucus being dragged along - that no change could be made on this deal that he had concocted along with Serge Joyal and Mark MacGuigan and others in the Federal Government.

Not one comma, not one period, not one tit or one jottle - whatever that is, Mr. Speaker - could be changed, or vice versa - as my friend would say - a jot or tittle. Mr. Speaker, the point is that it was the extreme position taken by the Attorney-General that brought

Monday, 23 April, 1884 extremism into the debate, that brought hard lines and brought hard positions and hard feelings into the debate, closure being Invoked, blind determ ination, no support in the public. Now, Mr. Speaker, no mandate - for sure, no mandate - at election time, no mandate now and no mand ate in the next elec tion. Mr. Speaker , one of the problems is that there are people in the government who will not face reality. They will not bite the bullet. They will not face reality, Mr. Speaker, and that is a problem that goes back a long way. Mr.

Speaker, I have served in the party for a long time and I have heard that argument put time and time and time again .. lt's a bad press; it's the media; we can't get out message through. Our policies are right; our people are good but we are unable to break through the press, we are unable to communicate with the person out there. We shouldn't change our views, we shouldn't change our policies. We should keep up what we are doing and do more of the same. lt is only a commun ication problem and a commu nication failure. Is that what the prot:-lem was for Mr.

Broadbent and the federal Constitution and the stand of the party? Is that what the problem was in regard to the whole language question? A failure to persuade or to provide information? Well, that's what they think it was. You know it is avoidance, Mr. Speaker. In the latest Maclean's magazine, which talks about the rise and fall of the NDP; that's the cover story. There is a quote from Rod Mur phy. I think Rod Murphy is one of the people who is in very big trouble in the next elect ion. MR. S. ASHTON: You haven't been up North lately. MR. R. DOERN: No, I haven't been up North. I have not been up North.

I haven't been up there for months, but I would really like to hear what the Member for Thompson has to say about the strength of the party provincially and federally up North. I would like to hear him argue that that seat will be retained provincially and federally because I have a feeling that federally it is gone and that provincially it is gone, but I would like to hear counter arguments put by my honourable friend. MR. S. ASHTON: Ask him about hydro devel opment. MR. R. DOERN: We ll, hydro development, that will be at least fighting ground.

If that's a good deal, then you have fighting ground, but we will have to look at the deal. Mr. Speaker, Rod Murphy said this in Macle an's magazine, he said the NDP should wait out the polls. They should wait patiently for the next election and hope for more publicity about the party's defence of existing social programs during the campaign. "Once the election starts," Murphy declared, "the media will start reporting what is actually said." Ok ay, that's what he said. No, he is not the one I wanted to quote because the next sentence is Te rry Sergeant.

Added Te rry Sargeant, another Ma nitoba NDP member , "We are basically on the right track. People just are not receiving our message ." You see, the message is right, the communication problem is the problem. The medium is the message, etc., etc., get into Marshall McLuhan, that is the problem. 152 Mr. Speak er, when the party had a chance to examine some of the real problems facing the party and facing the province, what did they do? They swept lt under the rug. When they had the convention - and you know, Mr.

Speaker, this all seems so long ago - when I read these dates on press clippings, it seems like a year or more ago. The NDP Convention in Brandon was in mid­ Februa ry. I mean that is not very long ago; it is only two months ago. lt seems like a year or two ago. 1 can hardly believe that it was that recent and what is the Free Press editorial on that particular convention? "Avoi ding the Debate." - (I nterjection) - That's right. lt said at the Annual Convention of the New Democratic Party "they demonst rated that the government is still running scared." That's what was demonstrated.

Of course, Herb Schulz was hooted down, shouted down, and thrown out of the party. Mr. Speaker, that was the stance. Don't face up to reality, don't bite the bullet, don't tackle the hard Issues, blame it on the press, blame it on Doern, blame it on the Tories, blame it on the bigots, blame it on the Klu Klux Klan, blame lt on anybody, but don't accept the responsibility whatever you do. So, Mr. Speaker, after two years in office and more, two-and-a-half years, we start geiting poll results.

Not the poll of the Attorney-General, where he ta'ked to a couple of buddies and one agreed with him and one didn't, so he said the results are 2 to 1 in favour of the NDP. That was a poll that he was not going to release to us. The Leader of the Official Opposition has already given polls, and I'm sure that his polls are far more accurate in reflecting public opinion and I would be very interested, Mr.

Speaker , the Conservatives have now blanketed the province with a Report from the Legislature. lt would be very inter esting to hear the results that they got on that que stion about what concerns you. lt would be Interesting to work that all out, as I'm sure will be done, and to give the press and the public some idea of what people are thinking at this particular point in time. Then, Mr.

Speaker, came the Free Press edition of March 10th - now again, this seems like so long ago to me, but it's only a few weeks ago - a whole page and it is a poll called "19 84 and You." it's a breakdown in what are the threats to the Con servative Party, the threats to the New Democratic Government, etc. Mr. Speaker, if I were going to attempt to guess what the No. 1 problem was for the government, I would have guessed the French language question, but the poll was better, because the poll went beyond that, behind the issues, because that really wasn't the problem In the first place, was it?

That was not the issue. The issue was the manner In which that issue was handled by the government. Mr . Speaker , the langua ge issue isn't new . The question of abortion is not new . Aid to private and parochial schools didn't just come up the other day.· These are long-standing historic Manitoba problems. They drop out of sight for 20 years, come back 20 years from now, and they'll still be discussing these issues in this Legislature and on the street - the question of bilingualism, the que stion of the relations between the different ethnic communities. That's Canadian history, that's Canada, that's Manitoba.

Mr . Speaker , I was a memb er of the Schr eyer admin istration. I tell you, Mr. Speaker, that if that

Monday, 23 April, 1984 question came before the Schreyer admin istration in the 1970's, it wouldn't have lasted five minutes.

Five min utes in and five minutes out There were people sitting around that table who were professionals, who would have examined the issue, made a decision, and the issue would have been finished on the spot They would never in a million years have gone for the deal of the Attorney-GeneraL If he had run in with that issue, he would have been fired out of Cabinet on his head, landed in the hall, dribb led down the stairs, out the front door onto the lawn, and would never have been seen again. He would have been laughed out of Cabinet, Mr . Speaker , not five mi nutes in th e Schr eyer administration.

In the Lyon administration, probably the same thing. No way, no way would that have been handled for months and years, and all the agony and turmoil and confusion and so on that went on, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I simply say that it's a matter of how the issues were handled. That was demonstr ated in the Winnipeg Free Press. They mentioned the top problems for the Pawley admin istration, the federal NDP's lack of cred ibil ity, and, Mr .

Speaker , the Conservatives, the Lyon administration, hurt the federal Conservatives in the elections in the 1970's and the Conservatives lost ground in Manitoba, and the New Democratic Party gained from two seats to five to seven. Now, we're going to see the reverse, the Pawley Government is going to hurt the federal members of Parliament, just like they hurt the municipal people. There was a pretty bad scene there. MR. H. ENNS: They were going to take over City Hall. MR. R. DOERN: Yes, they came close, they came close. They lost a seat, lost a couple of councillors just the other day and now down to what?

Six or so. So, Mr. Speaker, what is hurting the Manitoba ND P? The NDP federally; next, the leadership ability of Howard Pawley; and next, the leadership ability of Pierre Trudeau. Well, Mr. Speaker, that's remarkable, isn't it? The federal Liberal leader is hurting the NDP provincially. How could that possibly be? MR. B. RANSOM: Because they're in bed together. MR. R. DOERN: Well, Mr. Speaker, a cigar to the gentleman on my right. Anyone could have answered that question, but that is the answer, but he got it first, so I owe you a cigar. Mr.

Speaker, the Member for Turtle Mountain, who is a very intelligent and effective Mem ber of the Legislature, he guesses first, but even some of his colleagues who are not as learned or capable, anybody could have guessed it, even members on the other side could have guessed it Mr. Speaker, it was a lead pipe cinch. But when you're in bed with a political party, when you'r e too closely affiliated with th e Mark MacGuigans and the Serge Joyals and the Pierre Elliott Trudeaus of this country, then you go with them.

When you hitch your wagon to that star, if the star goes up, you go with it, and if it goes down, you go down too. The n next comes the leade rship abil ity of Ed Broadbent Mr. Speaker, I still think, I still believe that Ed Broad bent is a good man. I still belie ve that, I can't 153 get that out of my mind, but on the language question and on the Constitution, he made a very big mistake. Mr. Speaker, I told him that to his face, I told him that to his face in caucus with my colleagues sitting there.

Some of them told him that too, a couple of years ago. lt wasn't easy to do, I didn't enjoy it, but I felt there was a danger that the federal leader was not reading the West very accurately at all, was not representing or reflecting western opinion. Then the last two questions on the list were the lack of re-election credibility for the provincial NDP, because very few people believe the government's going to make it in the next election, even New Democrats find that hard to believe. Then the sixth one - and this is very surprising - sixth on the list is the French language issue.

So if you read this and if you study this poll, and if you study the polls around, it becomes very clear, Mr. Speaker, that the government is in big trouble, and that the Premier is in big trouble. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that the Premier him self may not lead the party in the next election because I think that he will have a difficult time winning his own seat in the next election. Mr. Speaker, I don't say this just off the cuff because I heard stories months ago coming out of the Selkirk Rolling Mills that the people there, bedrock supporters of the NDP, were down on the Premier and down on the party.

I heard almost a year ago, when this thing started, when a lady named Pat Maltman came to this building and knocked on my door with a petition of 350 names and she had 175 of those names were collected in the CN shops in Transcona. Then I knew that there was big trouble for the government and big trouble for some of the leading lights. Mr. Speaker, may I ask how much time I have left? MR. SPEAKER: The honourable mem ber has seven min utes remaining. MR. R. DOERN: Thank you. Mr. Speaker, I have a lot more to say but I will save some of it for the Budget speech. This might be a good time to read a few quotations.

I have an interesting book of quotations that I bought about 30 years ago for 35 cents. Nowadays that's $2.95 or $3.95, but 35 cents - I say this to the Min ister of Agriculture who is a-I don't know if he was born then. I think he was born then, but it was a lot of money 30 years ago -35 cents. The way I know is I used to give my daughter quarters and I found out that doesn't mean anything. A dollar is what you give to a young child now. You don't give them a quarter anymore.

When you go to the store, as I did the other day and bought an ice cream cone for 95 cents at Dutch Maid, 1 knew that a quarter didn't go very far anymore. it's "Hey Daddy, can I have a dollar for an ice cream cone?" A MEMBER: But they still say, "A penny for your thoughts," Russ. MR. R. DOERN: That's right. Mr. Speaker, I read three quotes in conclusion. One is for the Attorney-General, and I am sorry he isn't here. lt is an epitaph. lt looks like a poem, Mr. Speaker, but it doesn't rhyme, so I will read it as it is written in four lines, a very short one.

Monday, 23 April, 1884 "H ere lies beneath this mossy stone a politician who touched a live issue without gloves and never did come to." Mr. Speaker, that would be a good quote for the Honour able Minister. And for many of the members in the party who are going with the government, right or wrong, they are going with the language issue no matter whether nobody in Manitoba supports it - (Interjection) - Well, the Minister of Hig hways, the Minis ter of . A MEMBER: Business Develo pment. MA. A. DOEAN: Busine ss Development, he was smart, he went to Hawaii. The Member for St.

Johns, he was smart, he went " to Hawaii. Mr. Speaker, at one point during the language debate there were more New Democratic MLAs in Hawaii than in Manit oba, which shows that there is some sense and some intelligence in the party. Mr. Speaker, to those members who are going to support the party, right or wrong, I sim ply say this - I read them W.S.

Gil bert from HM S Pi nafore, and this is their hope, of cour<>e -"I always voted at my party's call and never thought of thinking for myself at all." The optimism comes later: "I thought so little they rewarded me by making me the ruler of the Queen's Navy." Unfortu nately, Mr. Speaker, we don't have a navy. Aye, there's the rub. But, Mr. Speaker, I conclude my remarks with this comment, and this is a quote from an American president at his inaugural address March 5, 1877 - Rutherford B. Hayes. Now I don't know much about Mr. Hayes, President Hayes, but I can tell you he knew what he was talking about.

He said this: "He serves his party best who serves the country best." And I say to the mem bers of the gove rn ment, and the backbenchers in particul ar, "He serves his party best who serves his province best," and they would do well to bear that in mind because, Mr. Speaker, it isn't just the New Democratic Party that they are serving. lt is the people and the Province of Manitoba that they serve. Mr. Speaker, when I first got elected, a Liberal lawyer that I knew who lived in Elmwood, still lives In Elmwood, still lives in my riding, made a lot of money, a very intelligent observer of the political scene.

In fact, I will even name him, which perhaps I shouldn't, but he made a comment which I think can be quoted. Jack Walker -some of you would know Jack Walker. Jack said to me when I was first elected, in the first few months of my term, he said, "L isten, I want to tell you so mething." He said, "You are an MLA now." And he said, "Y ou don't just represent the New Democratic Party in Elmwood ." He said, "Y ou represent everybody." Everybody. Yo u know, Mr. Speaker, I had to think about that.

I didn't just accept that and say, "Oh, you're right, Jack, absolu tely, right on." I had to think about that and work that through because I thought that I was just representing the NDP, the guys who voted for me. Mr. Speaker, that isn't how it works. An MLA must represent his entire riding. Mr. Speaker, that is the government's problem. The MLAs individually are, in 99 percent of the cases, not reflecting public opinion and neither is the government. MA. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Mini ster of Government Services. 154 HON. A. ADAM: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. lt's a pleasure to enter the debate, and I would like to extend my best wishes to you and hope things go well this Session, and I think they will. At least I have hopes that they will. I would like, also, to extend congratulations to my colle agues, the Member for Wo lseley and Mover of the Speech f;·om the Thr one, and the Seconder , my colleague from Rupertsland. Mr. Speaker, they did a very excellent presentation, both of them, and it is always nice to hear some of our people express thems elves and talk about their constituencies, particula rly the Member for Rupertsland.

He always has a way about him to make everyone sit back and listen. I really appreciate when my colleague for Rupertsland has an opportunity to speak in the House. it's also a pleasure to speak after the Member for Elmwood. I believe that he is the champion newspaper clipper in the House. I sat with him for a number of years and I know that he likes to cut papers. He does a lot of cutting and I expect that that's where he gets most of his material. I'm a bit disappoi nted that he did not deal more with the Throne Speech, that's what we're dealing with now.

He made a few comments, very shor t comments, about the spee<'ll, but he drifted away on a tangent on other issues and that Is, of course, his prerogative so to do. Mr. Speaker, I am very very pleased to support the Throne Speech. I think that what I have seen happening in the last two years has given me a sense of satisfaction. Things are changing in Manitoba, thio1gs have changed and for the better. I sat here, Mr. Speaker, for four years in the opposition and I know what happened. We know what happened. Mr.

Speaker, what we saw during the Conservative era was an exodus of people from this province, people leaving in droves, and I'm pleased that that has turned around. In two short years the drift that was going west, the drift is now coming east from the west, and they're stopping in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. They are stopping in Manitoba, and that Is why our population in 19 83 is the largest Increase in the past 20 years. I think that that is something we can take pride in.

I think that is something that we can be proud of, to have our people who left here in dis couragement, they are now coming back where they were raised, where they were born, where they had worked for many many years and drifted away during a dark period in the history of this province, Mr. Speaker -families being broken up, sons having to go away and leave their families, and even husbands having to leave to go and look for a job somewhere else. Mr.

Speaker, we were very happy that -in a sense we can be happy that there was a relief valve in the west to absorb some of the things that were happening in Manitoba under the Conservatives here. We have to be glad about that, that some of ouf people were · able to fir.d work in the west, but it's much more satisfying to me, as a Manitoban, to see them coming back and finding work here. Mr. Speaker, our record is one that many other provinces are looking at. They are looking at some of the policies that we have established here. I did a little trav elling, Mr. Sp eaker, I' ve just come back from Saskatchewan.

In fact, I went twice, I was there about three weeks ago and I was there over the weekend,

Monday, 23 April, 1984 but, Mr . Sp eaker , thin gs are not the same ther e anymore. Things are not the same. They had a good government, Mr. Speaker, over there and now they have changed, and things are not the same as they were, Mr. Speaker. The deficits are mounting. They never had deficits before. Balanced budgets was the order of the day in Sask atchewan under the New Democrats. Mr. Speaker, that is no longer the case. Yo u know, I heard my colleague talk about a taxi driver in Ontario, and I heard a lot of people scoff, on the other side, about the opinion of a taxi driver.

If you want to know what's going on, ask the taxi driver. He can tell you what's going on, because he hears it all the time. Hundr eds of people get in his cab and they talk and he hears a lot of things in the front seat of a cab. You know, we just happened to talk to one cab driver in Sask atchewan not very long ago, it was three weeks ago, and we asked him, "Well, how are things going here in Sask atchewan?" He said, "I can tell you that the present government's not going to be re-elected." Now this is not a cab driver in Ontario, this is a cab driver in Saskatchewan.

He says, this government's not going to get elected. I said, "Well, what's the matter anyway?" "Wel l," he says, "it hasn't done anything since it's been elected." I didn't argue with him, I didn't coax him, or try to encourage him to say anything derogator y about the government. He came out with it on his own, and the reason why he said that is because he can hear hundreds of people in his cab make comments about the government. Mr.

Speaker, we've seen -well, I can't miss what I have on my mind, to express my mind on when my colleague, the Mi nister of Energy and Mines, made the announcement of the largest deal on Hydro, the largest transaction on Hyrdo exports in the history of Canada -not Manitoba, but in the history of Canada - and I have never seen so many glum faces at one time, and not only glum but ashen, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we don't go around crowing about mega projects that are unattainable. We don't go around crowing about mega projects that are pie-in-the-sky. We mean business, we know how to operate, Mr. Speaker. Mr .

Speak er, when it comes to economic development, creating jobs, and making a better life for people, Conservati ves are not even in the same league. You could look anywhere in Canada, Mr. Speaker, and when the former admi nistration, when we were just entering a recession, brought in policies to dam pen the economy to try and put inflation down, that was what we call a double whammy. There was a recession coming and they could not perceive that it was coming, and they said, well, we've got to try and create a little downturn in the economy to try and get the inflation rate down.

The results were very clear as to what that policy caused this province and caused the people of Manitoba to reject that pol icy. I listened to the - (Interjection) - well, the member talks about the payroll levy, he talks about the levy on health and education, Mr. Speaker. The fact is we have a better record of employment in Manitob a than anywhere else, so that certainly doesn't support his argument, Mr. Speaker. We have moved from the third lowest unemployment rate in Canada to the lowest, even below mighty Saskatchewan, and I think Saskatchewan has the best 155 economy -if it's well-governed.

They are very, very well situated to provide good economy for that province. They have the resources, they have the agriculture, they have the grain, they have a very good balance, but you watch what's going to happen, Mr. Speaker. You mark my words, just watch what's going to happen. Now the taxi driver may have been a little bit too optimistic, that the next time around the government may be defeated. Now they may be, Mr. Speaker, but they're not going to be there very, very long.

I'm sure of that� Of course, I don't claim to be a Saskatchewan resident. lt's a long time since - I was a Saskatchewan resident once in my younger years, but look at the record on housing in the Provinc e of Manitoba in the last two years -21 8.4 percent increase In urban starts. That's the second highest increase of any province. That's some thing to be proud of, I would say. Investment has gone up 10.5 percent in 19 83, the third highest increase in Canada again. That's a pretty good reco rd.

We stack up very well with all tho se other Conservative provinces that we have thr ougho ut Canada and we're stacking up much better than they are in fact, the best in Western Canada certainly. For this year, Mr. Speaker, for 1984, the projections are for an increase of 11 .8 percent. Isn't that something to be optimistic about or is it something to be ashen faced like we saw the other day and all those glum faces when the announ cement was made that the biggest deal in the history of Canada on Hydro had been made and they were disappointed. There will be more, Mr. Speaker. Let me tell them that.

There will be more, but not in the same way as what we were getting when they were in office, Mr. Speaker, it ain't going to be giveaways. Even in retail sales there has been an 8 percent increase which was the largest increase again in the west. Little Manitoba with its small population is leading the west because of good policies, innovative policies. The Jobs Fund has been criticized; there's a lot of nitpicking.

The Member for Robin -Russell raised the problems of agriculture and we are all concerned -I'm not going to get into that because I think my colleague should be dealing with agriculture, the Minis ter of Agricuiture -but we are concerned about what is happening out there to the farm community and we have done more -and I'm not going to go into details -but we have done more in two years for the agricult ure sector than that group ever did in four. The Member for Robli n-Russell said he blamed the high interest rates as a cost on the farming and high energy costs.

That is two issues he was blaming on the problems that are being created for farmers and those two policies, when the Member for Roblin-Russell was on this side and they had a Conservative Government, those were two issues they were suporting was high interest rates and high fuel costs. We can prov e that; we can go back in the records and get it out. Now they stand up and say, hey, what are you doing about interest rates and high energy costs? When we were in opposition we were bringing that to their attention, what high energy costs were going to do to this country.

Some of the blame can be attached to the Premier of Alberta, on his policies on energy. When he brought

Monday. 23 April, 1884 in a boycott of 160 barrels a day on oil, that's when the trouble for Alberta started. That was the beginning, and right now they have such a depressed economy. We're sorry about that, we're sorry that is happening in the west. Their policies were not well thought out and they made an error and we hope it turns around, but that was the beginning of the end for Alberta, when they started boycotting the rest of Canada with their oil. They wanted to extract more dollars out of Manitoba and Eastern Canada. Now the hens are coming home to roost and that's what's happening now. Mr.

Speaker, I am very pleased at what we have accomplished in the last two years and we intend to continue to find ways and means to make this province a better place to live for ourselves and our childr en and our children's children. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, P. Eyler: The Honour able Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker. With indu lgence, I'd like to allow my colleague, the Member for St. Norbert, to speak. MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Mr.

Deputy Speaker. lt occurred to me that, as I read this Throne Speech over and over trying to find something worthwhile in it, that the Throne Speech having been Introduc ed during the Lenten season, it seemed to me that what would have been more appropriate for the government to do would have been to apologize for their performance during the past two-and-a-half years, to come clean with the people of Manitoba, to admit to their mistakes, to be ho nest with the peo ple of Manitoba, to ask for forgiveness to the electorate in Manitoba, Mr. Speaker, and to admi t th at their performance has been inadequate.

Now there is a whole list of Mini sters, beginning with the Premi er, Mr. Speaker, who have good reason to apologize to the people of Manitoba. The Premier could have be gun, Mr. Speaker , by apologizing for the statements that he made in his election document, A Clear Choice for Manitobans, statements and promises which were simply wrong, were In error, lacked any factual basis and which were misleading to the people of Manitoba. He could apologize, Mr. Speaker, for not providing leadership to the Provincial Government, for lacking the capacity to govern. Now, Mr.

Speaker, he indicates through this Throne Speech that the government is going to concentrate on the private sector. Well, Mr. Speaker, does he think Manitobans have short memories? lt was only last October that the president of the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, who represent not the banks or the oil companies or large multinational corporations but represent the small businesses throughout Canada and in this province, and he described this government, Mr. Speaker, as the most anti-business regime in Canada and went on with a long list of complaints. His comments, Mr.

Speaker, have been echoed by the Winnipeg Cham ber of Commer ce. 156 This government now proposes to concentrate on the private sector In Manitoba, having been described in this man ner by the Canadian Federation of Independent Business and the Winnipeg Chamber of Com merce. Mr. Speaker, it is almost as if this were some sort of deathbed confession. They are admitting now that the Prog ressive Conservatives were right In their crltlci�m during the past two-and-a-half years. Only this government, Mr.

Speaker, is dying of an infliction caused by a lack of honesty, a lack of integrity, a lack of competence and a lack of credibil ity. it is self­ inflicted, Mr. Speaker, and the government has no hope of recovery. lt is doomed to defeat in the next election. That Is something the First Min ister could apologize for, Mr. Speaker. The Minister of Energy and Mines, Mr. Speaker, could apologize for the loss of the mega projects, the loss of jobs. He could apologize for having abandoned the hydro rate freeze.

We had an increase of 9.5 percent in 1983 under this government, and another increase of 7.9 percent in this year. His recent announcements about a power sale and his failure to provide information that's being requested to this Legislature have raised a lot of serious questions about that whole project, Mr. Speaker, and we hope to obtain the answers for the people of Manitoba in the coming months. But at the present, Mr. Speaker, they have to be ju dged on th eir record. Their record of hyd ro development Is not good. Hopefully it will have changed. He could apologize, Mr. Speaker, for ManOil.

All that has happened there is they found a job for another Saskatchewan civil servant who has come to Manitoba from SaskOi l. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Finance could also do some apologizing.

I find it amazing that on Page 3 of the Throne Speech, the government, having brought in a record deficit last year, the hig hest in the history of Manitoba, more than the total of four years of deficits under the previous Progressive Cons ervative Government, now, because the deficit is going to come in slightly less than ho estimated, he is taking credit for what still Is a recotd deficit In the Province of Manitoba. it's still nearly $500 million and he is taking credit, Mr.

Speaker, for what is still a record deficit in the Province of Manitoba and he expects to get credit for people in this Legislature and the people of Manitoba for that kind of admini stration of the financial affairs of the province. That is absolutely ridiculous, Mr . Speaker. He should apologize, Mr. Speaker, to the young people of this province who are going to have to pay off that deficit. He should apologize for the loss of the credit rating in this province, Mr. Speaker. He should apologize for the payroll tax.

He should apologize for the increase In the sales tax, and he should apologize for the $1. 5 billion Spe• .al Warrant, which was, I submit, Mr . Speak er, in contravention of The Fina ncia� Administration Act. There was no urgent necesssity to pass a .Special Warrant in that amount. The only urgency was that this government wants to avoid any questioning of Its policies, Mr. Speaker. lt doesn't have the courage. I am sure it didn't even want to come into the House, Mr. Speaker.

If they had the legisla tive authority to pass a Special Warrant to eliminate Sessions of this Legislaure, that is what they really would like to do, but they went as far as they

could under the authority -that was the only possible authority they had -and to avoid any questions in the Legislature, they passed an unbelievable $1 .5 billion Special Warrant. Mr. Speaker, the Attorney-General could apologize to the Legislature. Remember those grand speeches last spring on the constitutional amendment? The Premier, I suppose, and his government took his advice, and what has happened? Manltobans have never been so bitterly and so badly divided, Mr. Speaker, and it will take decades, I regret, to overcome the division that this government has caused among the people of Manitoba.

He should apologize, Mr. Speaker, to this Legislature for that. He should apologize, Mr. Speaker, for one major error in the admin istration of justice. That, Mr. Speaker, was his changing of the criminal charges Involving Dr. Morgentaler without consultation with the senior staff of his department after he had explicitly told this Legislature that the Director of Prosecutions would handle that particular prosecution. He took it upon himself, without consultation with the Director of Prosecutions and senior staff, to change those charges.

That puts the admini stration of justice into disrepute in this province, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, he should apologize for the election expenses legislation whereby the taxpayers In the next provincial election are going to have to pay 50 percent of the costs of the NDP Party. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health should apologize for his admi nistration of the health care system In the province.

Today we had an unbelievable example when the Member for Lakeside asked some reasonable questions about the authority of a local board to operate the affairs of their area in an efficient way, and the Minister of Health - as many other Min isters in this government, Mr. Speaker -is obviously the captive of organ ized labour. They are the captives of organized labour and they won't allow a simple common -sense decision to be made by a local board who want to operate their affairs in an efflcent manner within the limited resources that are available to them. Mr.

Speaker, we have seen in recent months through the fall, as recently as on the weekend, stories -not generated by this side but generated by people in the health care system -that there are serious problems in the health care system. But what is our Minister of Health doing, Mr. Speaker? He is more concerned about the type of bingo cards that people are using in Manitoba. They have to use paper bingo cards that are produc ed by the government. He is Indulging, Mr. Speaker, in a personal vendetta in that field much to the chagrin of many local community groups involved in raising funds through lotteries.

He should be removed of his responsibility in that particular area and he should apologize for his conduct of his responsibiliti es in that area. Mr. Speaker, the Min ister of Municipal Affairs should apologize to the people of Manitoba for not dealing with the assessment problem. That is another important issue. lt's a complicated issue; it's a complex issue. it has been in the hands of the government and the previous Min ister for years now, and they refuse to deal with it, Mr. Speaker. I predict right now they won't deal with it prior to the next election.

We will have to deal with it. - (Interjection) - The former Minister says 157 we didn't deal with it, Mr. Speaker. We authorized that report to be done, a very thorough report involving communications and dialogue with people throughout Manitoba in that area, and they don't have the courage to deal with it. We'll deal with it after the next election when we're elected. We'll have to deal with it because they don't have the courage to deal with it and they should apologize for that, Mr. Speaker.

The Min ister of Community Services, or Min ister of Employment now Is his new title, he could apologize for everyt hing he's do ne because he's botched absolutely everything he's done. However, I detect he still has some input into the government because on Page 2 of the Throne Speech they talk about the number of jobs in Manitoba, and the Throne Speech states, "There are 9,000 more Manitobans who are working than were in December, 1981, about thr ee times as many new jobs as were created in the previous two years, 1980 and 1981." Talk about selective statistics! Mr.

Speaker, there were 34,000 or 35,000 jobs created unde r the previous Progr essive Conservative admin istration and now they have the nerve to put in their Throne Speech some selective comparisons to the last few years and I belie ve th at even tha t comparison is wrong in itself. I believe even that comparison is wrong In itself because the statistics that I have, which are taken from Statistics Canada, indicate that in 1982 the province lost 5,000 jobs and it gained 6,000 in 1983. lt would appear it would be a net gain of 1,000 jobs, but I want to reconfirm and verify again these statistics.

Even if their figures are wrong, Mr. Speaker, it is absolutely incorr ect for that type of selective statistical comparison to be made when, under our government, there were nearly 35,0 00 jobs created and virtually all in the private sector . Of course, we know that Minister, the Minister of Employment, loves to play around with those figures because we were victimized by his figures, but he didn't tell the whole truth and now they're bearing the brunt of their actions and the manner in which they got elected.

He still has some influence because he goes on to talk about, in June of last year, we recorded the largest annual increase in our population, an increase of some $1 2,000.00. They don't tell you, Mr. Speaker, about the report In the media earlier on this year wherein it was pointed out that the province is losing people. The February 22 edition of the Free Press indicate� that statistics for the third quarter of 1983 show Manitoba lost 806 people in interprovincial migration.

They go back in the Throne Speech to talk about June of last year and don't tell the people the truth, that in the following quarter there was a loss in interprovincial migration. Mr. Speaker, that is not being honest with the people of Manitoba. I don't propose to make a big deal out of the loss as a result of interprovincial migration. The fact is that there are num bers of tradesmen and people who go where the jobs are and if there's a large construction project or project somewhere else, they're going to go there and they're going to return to Manitoba In due course, Mr.

Speaker, but these are selective statistics, the kind of thing that particular Minister is well known for. The Minister of Small Business Development, I think it's called now, and Tourism, he could apologize for not being stronger in the Cabinet, because we know

Mondar, 23 April, 1984 what his personal views are on so many things the government has done and he could apologize to this Legislature for not telling the government during the past two-and-a-half years that they were proce eding along the wrong path. As the Minister of To urism, he could explain, perhaps to members of his Cabinet, that tourism faltered badly last year - as it was the report in February -with 262,000 fewer outside visitors than in 1982, because of buyer resistance to higher prices in Manitoba was what one party indicated was the reaso n.

Those higher prices, of course, are all related to increased taxes of various kinds, including liquor taxes, which this government has im posed, that have proven to be adverse to the tourism industry and to visitors coming into this province. The tourism ind ustry is a very impo rtant indus try for Manitoba. lt employs a lot of people. Perhaps in this new position of responsibility that he has he can impress upon the members of Cabinet that something has to be done in that particular industry because they failed badly in promoting the province and in promoting tourists coming to Manitoba.

The now Minister of Government Services, the former Mi nister of Muni cipal Services, I tried to think of what he should apologize for. How could you ask that Mini ster to apologize for bringing Main Street Manitoba to this province, the program which was to be the economic saviour of this provi nce? A MEMBER: Don't run it down. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I'm not running it down. The Minister built it up to be the economic saviour of this province.

The Minister of Agriculture -there's certainly other people much better qualified than I to speak on the subject of agriculture -but I do have some connections through my constituency to people in the agricultural field and there is a crisis in agriculture and the Min ister doesn't seem to be dealing effectively with it. That government, I don't think, can relate properly to the affairs of farmers and it is becoming more and more a crisis. Bankru ptcies have been increasing sharply. Farmers can't afford to seed their crops.

There are real financing problems in agriculture and unfortu nately it's getting worse and we don't see any effective leadership on the part of this Minis ter or the government in dealing with it. Mr.

Speaker, the now Chairman of the Treasury Board, I noticed they've taken all adminis trative responsibility away from him, probably because as a result of his years in opposition and his irresponsible statements, I take it the Premier now realizes they can't give him any specific admin istrative responsibility because they kno w that somewhere in the past he's made some ridiculo us statements that are going to come back to haunt him. We remember them all -fogging mosquitoes, the whole works, right down the line, Mr.

Speaker, so now he's left as Chairman of the Treasury Board, but even there he prefers to criticize. He really doesn't like to take any positive action. The government announced they're going to cut 273 positions and he's the Chairman of the Treasury Board. This is what he approved, but 158 he doesn't want to take any responsibility for who gets cut -oh, that's up to the departments. So what if the political aides and image makers and apple polishers have all been doubled? So what if advertising is excessive in Manitoba? He authorized 273 positions to be cut and the departments will do that.

He's a good guy, he doesn't want to get involved in naming people, Mr. Speaker, or decide who's going to be cut. Mr. Speaker, that's really establishing priorities. That's what the Chairman of the Treasury Board is supposed to do, and he's really establishing priorities. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Natural Resources, I think should once again apologize to his constituents for not represe nting them in this Legislature. He didn't represent them on the constitutional amendment, Mr. Speaker. You would have thought he'd have learned.

He didn't represent them years ago when the government brought in uniclty and he was defeated. He didn't represent them this time, Mr. Speaker, and he's going to be defeated again. Mr. Speaker, surely one of what appeared to be one of the brighter lights in this government at the beginning of its terms was the Minis ter of Education, but she is really leaving a legacy in the educational field. We have the recent indication of the change in tenures. She should apologize to the students of Manitoba for that. We have a crisis at the universities, Mr. Speaker.

We have limi ted enrolment in amounts, in numbers, that I deplore, and I'm sure the young people of this province deplore. We have unparalleled staff cuts at the universities, and again she tries to be the good person, Mr. Speaker. They come to see her and she says, "Gee, I agree with you. Maybe if you go and see my colleagues in Cabinet, you can get more mone y. it's not my fault." She takes no responsibility for it, Mr. Speaker. That's not right, she is respo nsible for education in this province and it's going down hill. Mr.

Speaker, she takes no responsibility for the University of Brandon and the fiasco of firing Mr. Perkins. She takes no responsibi lity, Mr. Speaker, for the lack of financial support to school boards and municipalities, which have caused an extremely large increase in real property taxes. Mr. Speaker, what about the grant to independent schools for this year? The grants for the public school system were anno unced a long time ago. What 's happened to the grant for independent schools? When is that going to be annou nced, Mr. Speaker? What kind of infighting is going on over there, Mr.

Speaker, and when is that government going to realize that a positive contribution is being made by independent schools in this province? Mr. Speaker, is the government going to lean in favour of the -as the Member for Turtle Mountain referred to earlier today -left wing radicals, who would prefer not to give any assistance to independent schools or is it going to lean towards to the reasonable position · I know that's being taken by some members in that group? A decision is going to have to be made, Mr.

Speaker. lt should have been made long time and I hope will be made positively in favour of independent schools very shortly, Mr. Speaker. Then we have, Mr. Speaker, the Minis ter -it's hard to keep up with all of the new names - I think it's the Min ister of Economic Development, but anyway the former Minister of Urban Affairs, in charge of the Jobs

MondiiJ, 23 April, 1984 Fund. Mr. Speaker , talk about a lack of hon esty. The reference to 21,000 jobs, when in fact Statistics Canada shows the actual number of jobs that have been created in Manitoba. Mr. Speaker , of course, we all noticed the editorial correction in the paper, wherein Mr. Weppler is not supposed to have told the Federal Government not to criticize the Jobs Fund without consulting them, but he only suggested that, Mr. Speak er. Mr.

Speaker, that gentleman, as I under stand it, in the Federal Employment and Imm igration Department has been suspended for two weeks without pay as a result of this gov ernment's expressions of concern. As I understand it - and I don't know the gentlemen, but he's involv ed in the particular field of job statistics and he offered some genuine criticism of the Jobs Fund based on their criteria. For that, Mr. Speaker , this government has taken some action, which has resulted in his suspension for two weeks without pay. Mr.

Speaker, this government should apolog ize for the excessive advertising that they have used with respect to the Jobs Fund. They should apologize for the excessive amounts of money that are being used to publish and advertise, Mr. Speaker , figures which are misleading. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Community Services, I think, has to take a long hard realistic look at the policy that the government has introduced with respect to the adoption of native children in this province.

There are now, according to the information I've received, it now takes from four to six years for a prospective adoptive parent to wait for a child. We have, Mr. Speaker, large num bers of native chil dren who are unable to find homes. There is some criticism of what has happened in the past related to out-of-province or out-of-country adoptions, Mr. Speaker , but I seriously believe that it is not in the interest of these native children, who are being held away from people who are prepared to provide homes for them immed iately.

I don't know how any individual can justify keeping these children in foster homes when there are people who are prepared to adopt them, Mr. Speaker , and provide good homes for them. I think the government, in spite of all the public reports and the judicial inqu iries, has to take a careful look at that, Mr.

Speaker, and the Minister had better be awfully careful in assessing her policy of returning abused, deprived, and abandone d children to their mothers without properly ensuring that those children are cared for, because there are already known some instances where those children have suffered harm in being returned. The int erest of the mother is not paramount, it's the interest of the child. I'm afraid that future months and years are going to show that this policy is going to result in harm to a number of children. Mr.

Speaker , the Min ister of Labour , who on behalf of the government takes some pride in the employment rate in Manitoba, should apologize for those 20,000 more people who are unemp loyed under this government than were employed when they took office. Mr. Speaker , she should apologize for the first contract legislation which was brought in supposedly to improve labour management relations when it was made clear in an

article in a newspaper the other day by a union official that what this legislation essentially did was improve the organization of unions, helped to organize 159 unions better. That was the main purpose of the legislation; it wasn't to improve any labou r-management relations because it doesn't do that. lt was done to help organize labour, organize unions in this province, Mr. Speake r. In a small aside, the government seems to take some credit in having Pope John Paul 11 come to Manitoba this year.

Hopefully , prior to that visit, the Minister of Labour will also offer an apology to Roman Catholics for some of the comments that she's made in the past month; and she should apologize, as the Min ister of Urban Affairs, for the drastic increase in real property taxes. I know the government doesn't like to hear these figures but they promised to ease the municipal tax burden.

They made reference to it in the Throne Speech and I want to cite once more, based on the most recent increase in taxes, that using as an example an average home assessed at $7,000 in the Winnipeg School Division where they have all their seats, the total net taxes on that home from 1977 to 1981 increased by a total amount of $78.03. In the first three years of this government, 1982 to 1984 under the NDP, the total taxes on that same home have increased by $298.00. In three years, under the NDP, the total increase Is nearly four times the total increase over four years under a PC Government. Mr.

Speaker , they had the nerve to criticize us in opposition over the increase in taxes that had occurred. They should apologize for that. In the limi ted time available to me, just a couple of more important references that I want to make. This government should apologize for this government indicating that it wants to enter the life insurance Ind ustry, Mr. Speaker . That has caused great consternation among the industry that has been good to Manitoba and in which a lot of people are employed. This government should apologize also for the lack of apartment construction in this province.

There is now a very low vacancy rate existing in this province, and I said, when they introduced their rent control legislati on, what are they going to do to encourage the construction of rental housing in Manitoba and they'v e done nothing, Mr. Speaker. They've done nothing, Mr. Speaker .

The Min ister res ponsible for the Workers Compensation Board should apologize for the increase s in assessments and the incompetent board that he has put in place there, a 9 percent to 20 perce nt increase in assessments last year, over 20 percent this year, and the government had to use $4 million of taxpayers' money to keep those assessm ents down. Mr.

Speaker, those are just some of the areas in which every Minister in every department has been involved in, in the last two-and-one-half years. lt would have been much better, as I said at the beginning, that if they want to come in and ask for the support of the people of Manitoba they should have tried to clean the slate, to apolog ize for all of these mistakes that they've made, and errors and incompetence and been honest with the people of Manitoba and had some integri ty.

Then perhaps they would have some credibility; then perhaps they might have a possibility of being re­ elected, but they haven 't acknowledged any of this and they lack honesty and they lack integrity and they lack competence and they lack cred ibility and they're

Monday, 23 April, 1984 doomed to defeat , and this Throne Sp eech is a testimonial to that. lt's a testimonial to a government that is doomed, that doesn't have any real ideas and concept of its own, this government that has been called the worst anti-busine ss government in Canada is now going to concentrate on the private sector. That doesn't offer much optimism to the people of Manitoba, Mr. Speak er, when a government of this stripe is going to do that.

Meanwhile, as the Min ister for La Verendrye indicates, they are participating in a plan with respect to Autopac coverage that will adversely affect all of the small agents in Manitoba. This government is obviously doomed to defeat and the Throne Speech is clear evidence of that. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: The Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I want to say that it's cer tainly a pleasure for myself to take

part in the debate on the Sp eech from the Th rone and to pay you congratulations in leading this Cham ber once again, as well as my colleagues, the Member for Rupertsland and the Member for Wolseley, for moving and secon ding the Speech from the Throne. I want to say as well, Mr. Speaker, that it's a pleasure to speak in this deba te because the Throne Speech presents, what I would consider , a good overview of this government's record of positive action to strengthen and develop the economic and social well-being of this province in times of severe economic adversity. Mr.

Speak er, I'm also proud of this administratio n's record on tackling these economic di fficultues head on. In this respect I believe that we are unique among Provincial and Federal Governments because we've made massive commitments to stabilize our provincial economy and to, what I would say, neutralize the negative economic consequences im posed on our people by those outside of our borders. We are living, Sir, in difficult economic times.

For many years now we've staggered under the oppressive burden inflicted on our people by harsh and inhumane economic policies of our Federal Government and those of other countries and, really, what have we got to show for it? - exorbitant interest rates, record unemployment, housing shortages and negative economic growth throughout this country. Mr. Speaker , these hardships are the predictable outcome of what can be expected when you use 18th Centur y solutions to 20th Century problems. These harsh pol icies of those around us have triggered the deepest and most severe recession witnessed in our times.

The high interest rate policy is a logical position of Conse rvative governments who refuse to be creative and forward-l ooking in searching for solut ions to modern-day problems. Mr. Speaker , instead they reach back to what I would say, the good old days, to measur es that may have worked a hund red years ago, Sir. They pretend that nothing is changed and we need another dose of that good, old medicine and we'll certainly cure our economic ills.

What I'v e described, Sir, is the economic policy of every conservative -thinking country in the free world 160 and I'm sure that's the position of members opposite here, who hide your head and hope that things will get better. Mr. Speaker, that is a defeatist attitude which I am sure is shared - that kind of an attitude is shared - as expressed by members opposite, my colleagues would say, that is a defeat ist attitude, a totally negative attitude; and it was displayed here this afternoon by the Member for St. Norbert time after time, someone who should - and he used the words - should apologize. Mr.

Speaker, if anyone should apologize, it's the Member for St. Norbert, who doesn't recognize that the thrusts and the changes in policy, albeit so many, and if any1hing, that it probably hasn't gotten through to fellow Manitobans, is the massive thrust of the various changes in policies and programs that this government has instituted over the past few years which have been negated by the negativisms of the members of the opposition on the one issue that this government really had nothing to do with, but was exaggerated and blown out of proportion by thems elves and the Member for Elmwood.

That's really where we're at. Mr. Speaker, this government has recognized the need for a partnership arrangement between the public and private sectors and that is why we have fostered a close and harmonious working relationship between govern ment, business and labour. Together we can withstand economic adversity, adjust to change - and the world is changing very rapidly - and to lay the economic groundwork for future prosperity. I'm proud of our performance to date. lt will not be enough, admitted ly, dealing in agriculture.

Although we have put more money into agriculture than any government in the history of this province, it will be enough and it isn't enough and we recognize that the financial failures of many of our farmers will continue and no matter what we do here, in terms of the Province of Manitoba, we do need national action in terms of income support for the farmers of this province. Mr.

Speak er, it was, I guess, amusing to note that the Leader of the Opposition, during his remarks on the 16th of April, spoke about the meat packing industry, saying, tell us about it, tell us what your solutions are going to be and tell us how you're going to address those problems with the Canada Packers and its viabilit y. He talked about the meat packing industry. Sir, what is the record here in Manitoba? We had an administration here in the province that allowed about a quarter of our producers to cease producing beef in the Province of Manitoba during their term in office.

We lost one packing house that cost the workers In Winnipeg hundreds and hundreds of jobs directly in this province. What have we done, Mr. Speaker? A MEMBER: All our fault. HON. B. URUSKI: No, Mr. Speaker, not all your fault,. but when they talk about action or inaction on behalf of a provincial government, the Leader of the Opposition should know that we have now stabilized the beef-cow herd in the Province of Manitoba. We are having an increase, albeit small, but in comparision to what's happening across North America, we have turned the tide. We have turned the tide by what, Mr. Speaker?

By positive government action to encourage the production of beef and the finishing of beef in the

MoRdaJ, 23 April, 1984 Province of Manitoba and it took a major capital investment of over $20 million in the last two years; and I believe, and I venture to say, Sir, that it will protect thousands of jobs in the meat packing industry in the Province of Manitoba. lt will be an investment, a partnership between the farmers, the government, the workers and industry all together, working. Working for whom, Sir? For the benefit of the people of this province, to protect, to stabil ize, increase production and make sure that Manitoba is a leader in food processing in this country.

That is our advantage and that's what this government is working toward. That's what we're doing with respect to the meat packing industry and our farmers. Mr.

Speaker, Manitoba is one of the few provinces in this nation where production of hogs continues to incr ease far beyond what is ha ppening in other provinces, and it is in part due to the long-term investment by this government into income stability of our hog producers. it does take millions of dollars and we are comm itted to agriculture in terms of stabilizing incomes of our producers and it is a partnership and it will pay off. lt will pay off in long-term income stability.

The one area, Sir, that we are vulnerable in this country and which does require national action is in the area of income stabilization for our grain producers. That is one area where we are vulnerable. We have made time and time repeated requests and submissions to the Federal Government dealing with The Western Grain Stabili zation Act.

There is close to $1 billion in that fund and grain producers in Western Canada, many of whom have gone bankrupt and some of whom will likely continue to go bankrupt as a result of the low prices received on the world markets for grain, at a time when the Grain Stabilization Fund is burgeoning, there is need to change those criteria and make sure that needed income is made and paid immed iately, Mr. Speaker, to western grain farmers -immed iately. - (Interjection) - The Honourable Member for Minnedosa says that's what we said in our press release from Regina. That was in March, I believe, Sir. Mr.

Speaker, they were almost a year too late. In 1983, we made specific proposals to the Federal Government in which - (Interjection) - Mr.

Speaker, I want to say to the members opposite, I am pleased with the support that we can share collectively as a Legislature here and we will want them to participate in adding further to that collective support to make sure that that message is shown very clearly to Ottawa that there is great need in the grain sector in the Province of Manitoba, Sir, and we will be putting forward some measures to make sure that that collective support from this Legislature goes forward in very short order. There is one area, Mr.

Speaker, that was touched on by members opposite, by the agricultural critic, dealing with one issue that I find a bit amusing in terms of coming from the former Minister of Agriculture, the Member for Arthur , dealing with my meetings that I've had with farmers of this province in the last several weeks regarding crop insur ance, Sir. He made remarks in his speech saying - he's got one particular problem, Mr.

Speaker, because his own farmers in the lnterlake are paying a little too high a premium and he's trying to figure out how he can get the other farmers in the rest of the province to help him pay the premiums. The oldest socialist phi losophy, Mr. Speaker, he's going to try and equalize them. 161 I have no problem with him taking a look at crop insurance and the premiums. Why doesn't he have someone do it for him? He tou red through my commu nity, a great idea.

Being the Mini ster of Agriculture, I wish he'd let me - I think there were four or five - I wish he'd let me know and I could have gone and helped add to the crowd. We've already do ne the kind of work on crop insurance and we're moving towards the kind of recommendations, so he's now trying to think it's a major priority. lt's not a major prior ity. Well, Mr. Speaker, I wish the honourable member would have attended the meetings, because they were open to the public.

I know the Honourable Member for Rhineland did attend with some 50 or 60 of the farmers from his area and we discussed at length some various proposals dealing with not only crop ins urance, but with the grain stabllization fund, and I want to say that the Member for Rhineland was very positive in terms of his critique and questions that he raised along with the farmers in his area, and had the Member for Arthur come to the meetings, he would have seen that if we do do what many farmers have suggested, increase the coverage for most farmers in the Province of Manitoba, that there is a cost associated with it, but also the desire to make risk areas smaller in terms of crop insurance, that his own area, that the Member for Arthur's own area is one of the areas that will benefit as well from blending, if you make risk areas smaller, Mr.

Speaker. A MEMBER: Will you reduce the size of the areas? HON. B. URUSKI: That's what will happen, Mr. Speaker. There are areas that will be made smaller, risk areas will be made smaller. That was part of the proposals. But Mr. Speaker, it will be mem bers opposite who will then get up in the hustings and say, this government just rammed their policies through and they didn't want to consult with the farmers. it is not this Min ister. Mr. Speaker, we had a beef program. We consulted widely with the farmers of Manitoba.

We are now in a major review of crop insurance, Sir, we will consult and we have consulted widely. Eleven public meetings, Sir, in the Province of Manitoba over the last few weeks. Mr. Spea ker, over 500 produc ers attended tho se meetings and offered their advice and their views on the possible changes that we are working towards. Mr.

Speaker, that is participation, because we know, Sir, that we cannot make changes and major changes in programs unless we have dialogue and input from the producers, Sir, and our next step is to go to the Federal Government to negotiate greater benefits for the prod ucers of this province. The Honourable Member for Arthur says that crop Insurance is not a major priorit y. Let him talk to the farmers of Manitoba. Not enough coverage, the risk areas are too small, give us more coverage so that there can be more income stability on the production side to the farmers of Manitoba.

If ever there was a need to review crop insur ance, Mr. Speaker, it is now. If ever there was a need to put in more federal dollars into agriculture, it is through one of the major programs, that we consider major to the stability, the underpinning of agriculture, it is crop insurance. it is. And we have, in fact, lost the participants over the last number of

Monday, 23 April, 1984 years from over 18,000 contracts in 1977, we're down to below 14,000, Sir. There is need to update that program and make it more in tune to the farmers of Manitoba. We consider it a major program and I'm sure that the farmers do, even though the Member for Arthur may not consider crop insurance a major program, Sir. We will continue to work with the farmers of Manitoba to impove that programming. Mr.

Speaker, there is one area that the members opposite have talked about and have really something to crow about as far as their policies were, and I refer to the production and marketing of supply-managed products, that's. milk, chickens, eggs and turkeys. You may know, Sir, that these products are produced and mark eted under the jurisdiction of national agencies with national marketing plans and quota orders, and you may also know that Manitoba has a competitive advantage in the production of these products, as compared to most other provinces in this country.

But thanks to members opposite, when they were in office, we lost our advantage position in the marketing of these products, because they allowed comparative advantage and competitive advantage to be downgraded as the domi nant criteria for allocating additional quota amongst provinces. lt was their inaction, Sir, that has now - you know, you can only say it's irresponsible action, Mr. Speaker, that Manitoba producers and processors have not shared in the growth of markets to the ful lest possible extent in this province, of those commodities, Sir. You know, rather