PRELH1INARY UNEDITED TAANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSE.M.BLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. \V'EDNESDAY I APRIL 27 I 1977

,A._nrH 27, lC'77 ~he Fouse ~et at 1:00 o.r. '.4'-- ~pea!rer in the rhair. nr~er nlease. Hon. ~e~her ~or Terra ~ova. ''T' .LPSE: Hr. Soeaker, I il.o not know exactly 'Jhether I sroulr he asking to ma!re a motion~ rut I ,.rant to just brief] v explain to tZ,e House <:.Thy I am standinp.: at tris time. I vianted to either TT!a!re a ~~tion-as I have said,0r ~a~e a Sll~?estion to the Fouse thRt ~- 7 e, tre eJected rerresentati:ves of the ~1'ouse of Asse!"hJ"~senr a te1eQ'ram to the St.

Jorn's f,lue r.aps, tte tearr tt:<'lt representee us in the se!".i-fina.ls in t~e _L\] len C'up anc'! die snch a co11'T!Iendahle in representing ~1e~cfoundlanrl, took the Branrlfcnc .AJ exancers a] 1 the v7ay in five gatr'es ,and as I r?ve saj o made a trc.~endouf' effoTt pnc alrrost went all the way,anc I helieve that this Pon. Pouse should Fire a telegram to the coach ani! the plavers to let t1•e~ kno•· 7 hm.; much Fe apprecia tei! their !!!fforts ~n bein~?, the second best amatel'r. teal". in ranac;;_. I do not know whether a motion 1 is in order.

If it is,someone frow the opposite side can co it -and ,,Te can second it~ tre Pre:rr:ier may re, anrl r-re conlr {?et to(!ether an~ draft an appropriate telegram. '':'. SPY_A...VET': Fon. tbe Pre!'lier. PPI'YIEP. ~·nr.pJ:s: ~'r.. Spea:ker, it is rdth great r'le1i~J-,t th<tt I a!'l only too ;.r:illinp.- to go alonf. Pith the hon. !!'leT!'her's SU??estion that rmuld ~ave been proposeri ~ere ~ust a little lRte~ ~ut either ~~v it is the sA"'e resu:t anr'l the sa~e inter:t. representatives, St.

Jorn's Blue Caps, in Allen Cup play, I think was of rea1 jf'_t~r.est tr" "'- gre.~.t "'anv neopJe in the prov:i_nce, ar..d I r,Tonlr 5362

April 27, 1077 T "-.., ;,.._,1 ~ • .: _ • difficulties t~at transpire~. rertainly, Sir, it is a great pleasure t~at we ~o alonf with those senti~ents. ~on. ~~~ber for Naskaupi. '"'.C-0P 1 IE: T beg: leave "r. Speaker, to have pe!l:'issian to tahle the; folloFin? petiUon. !he petition has l230 na~eR attached to it. It co~es fro~ the Fapoy Valley -~oose Bay area of Labrador, to the "P'.::tpoy "aUey- r.oose. P.ay area.

I co not thjnk it is ?o:inp to he confusing hut I ~,7 ould hope that Fhen a presentation is ~ade that perhaps the ~'inister of necreation c: ""ehahi~ itation T"i?ht offer ~ comment on t~e praver of the petition, at least an expl.a.natory note if tbat is nossihle. Rut the prayer of the ~ et:i.tion reacs, "We, the under- st~ne~.stronply nr~test the rec~~t news that it is possible tbat the former P;ocfc'lon ~"e!T'.orial TTosoital in Ba~py Valley may J:.e convertec into government office's.

As concerneC! citizens of this to~'l1 T,Te '"lave in the past crotestec'l anv sucb move and ;>gain ~ow ta~e strong exce~tion to any such l!'OVe.

Pe feel this 'GuildiPC!; could be put to a lot ~etter use such as accorn!'odatinns for our senior citizens, public health offices and c'lay ca.re centres1ju~t to naM.e a feF. •-•e have ~een to]c by qovern'!T'ent officials that the buiJ r.inr- Fould not be used for .::my offic~s and until any ~ecision MRS ~ace a ~Petin? should ~e held here in tm-7!1 ~<lith citizens .::lt'lc p:C"vernl'l"ent offjcials.' ' \·1'hen tt'ey ~av 'here i.n to~·7tl the~·~· trey are 't'~ferri_ng to Pc>_t"ny P?.J 1 ey ?.rea.

Halley :itself tc c'iSCltSs this p;trticnlar i~8UP ; ?..ncl !lot beinr; allc.~- rerl ro ra~e ministerial stare~ents or anythin? else T .::~~ hoping that 5363

"'ar>e 1928 T "-3. '~ . r,nn:.rr: : t he l!linister t-rjlJ. o;:fer some explanatorv coTl'T"'ents h~fo re th~s ~et:itjon ~a~ been p roce~sed . I ~ish to ta~le this pe>t:i tion~ :·r . ~oe;:d(er, c:>nc ~av~ ir: r~ferr.ecl to t~E' dePa rttnent to ·.r:,; c~ ir: re laces . "r. ~peaver, I 1--etve nC' 1-jesitation ··~1--atsn"'ver in suopor tin~ the prayer of this peti cion . :' s t he mer.her for )!e>sl·;:tupi =. r~<>. ar><' ~iorthr·•est ~"iver a!'c' "nc' L.:~ve areas but it would also serve coastC'l co~un:ir.ies . ~n~ t~ere is a rea1 nE>ec for such a ~o~e in t~?t etrea .

"any peo~le ~rOr." the coast :in the past have core o:lo~,rn to <: t . Jor!l 's an<'! ha,Te essentiallv 'l,een re~ovec fro!" vis its frotl' rhe · r o~·"C reon1e, tr.eir friencs c:>nc re lat~ves . ~~e dis tance is coo ~reat fer . ;·

a) J e•r -r0c~e :?;~.y is certain .ly t! !e center o~ tr.e i:ub, i r :.s d:e center of T.ahr a.c'or anrl evervone is cer t ainlv forcerl hv ge<"'<?ret.ohy to travel 5364

April 2 7 , 19 77 Tape 1929 A.R-1 ~·ffi. ST~ACHAN: So \•lith these reasons., and He l:ave stated this many times before ,and hopefully I would ~vish that the minister should have some answer or take some ';Jositive steps in this in the near future and I Hould welcome such if such were the case. I have no hesitation tvhatsoever in supnorting the oetition. "!R. SPEA.TZER: Han. member for LaPoile. ~1R. NEARY: I support the oetition presented by the hon. member on behalf of 1,2n0 and some-ocld, \"as it? HR.

GOUDIE: 1,230 ?·fR. ~~E..:\RY: 1,230 residents of th~ Goose Bay-Hauuy Valley area to have the former Paddon ~~emorial Hospital converted into a senior citizens home. I do not rember, Hr. Speaker, whether the hospital is a tvooden structure or "·hether it is brick. I believe it is brick structure if mv memory serves me correctly,Sir. But, Hr.

Speaker, I think it is a good idea because to mv knoHled~e Labrador - and I am talking ,'1hout iTorth, South, East and the Festern part of Labrador- Labrador does not have a home for senior citizens in apv shaue or form, does not have one. 1·Je have neglected Lahrador in tl:le Prop:ramme of expanding homes for geriatric care and for senior citizens in this p • L rovJ.nce. I remember, lKr.

Speaker, a fe•.v years ago '~>7hen I outlined,on behalf of the administrations, a programme for building a smaller tyne home for senior citizens around this Provine:<:=· that one of the areas that eve were !Siving top prioritv to was the mainland part of the Province, Labrador. Unfortunately the administration got thrm·m out and I coulrt not finish the nrogramme that I started 1hut a numh~r of homes that I had on tl-,e rlr"!T·:-i...,,. J.,oarr1-and some that I rlid not have on the r.ra,.ring ~;oac--1 have been completed since then. 5365

April 27,1977 Taoe 1929 MI-2 I believe it r,roulq be a good idea for the minister to have the fire comrnissioner, to ]i ave the various res-presentatives of the Denartment of Public Harks go into Fapny Valley, go into C::oose '3av ·and taL~e a look at this building, see if it is suita~le for a aenior citizen~ home before they start makin~ rylans to convert it into an office ~uilding, and I think it •..;rould he very ,.rorthwhile, I hope the hon. member or no other hon. member of this House though ~ill fall into the trao of savin~ that there should ~e a senior citizen~ horee ~ere or there or scree other place to prop up the economy of the communitY.

That is not the reason for building senior citizens) homes.As mv hon friend from Eagle River said " There is a great need in that area for a senior citizens home," and that is the reason for unttinz it there, not to create jobs .or not to proP up the faltering economy.

And I do hoPe that the minister will give this matter his urgent attention'! give it verv serious consideration because I believe it is about time, Sir, that ~ve did start opening: uD smaller type t,.omes all over Labrador, both in the Hapoy Valley­ Goose Bay area and the Sout~ern part of Labrarlor and in \.Jestern Labrador, smaller type homes for the care of our senior citizens in that area. ''lR. SPE.<\KER: ~~- RIDEOUT: Ron. member for Baie Verte-~~ite Bav. Okay, the minister wants to resPond• ~1R. SPEAKER: The hon. gentleman tvill yield to the . hon. minister. I·TIZ. H. COLLIN~ :Yes, Hr.

Speaker, to bring the House up to date is an opportunity that is providerl now through this petition. Last year t•rhen rJe moved from the Paddon r..remorial HosPital in Happy Valley-C::oose Bay to t~e USAF ~osPital which ~as now 'Jeen !earned the ~relville '{osPital,I had a Teeting with ~orne interested grouPs in the Ra-onev Valley-~oose Bav area, a group 5386

April 27,1077 Afi-3 ~£R . CROSS : representin~ the senior citizens,who were headed by the hon mer.1bers mothe r, ~rs Goudie, another groun knmvn as the Early C~ildho od Developme nt r.roun , and some oth er interested citizens who thought that the old Paddon Hos.:>ital ~.>ould h e a suitable building for a senior citizens' home . Af ter that \..rhen I came back to St.

John's ~•e had discu ss ions with the Depa rtment of Public {\l'or ks , arrangements '"ere t1ade to have so~e ~-1o r k done to the building in terms of protecting and refur:,ishing the heat:i.ng syste m and so on to nrotect the building for t he ···inter. And it r..1as the considered opinion of people in the Department of Public Works ,and indeed in t~e Department of Eealth and Rehabilitation and Rec re~tion,that if we were going to provide the senior citizens' facilitY in Hapny Valley-Goose Bay we would be bette r off goin~ the route of providing a facility p ro perly olanned for t~at particular use.

And subsequently ,af ter a goodly r.umbe r of meetings, the second last one about: ttm months ago and the last one

April 27, 1977 Tape 1930 MR. H. COLLINS: about three weeks ago where the officials from rehabilitation went to Happy Valley-Goose and met with all of the interested people. The clergymen~who I understand nmv are formin~- have been requested to form and I am sure they will, an inter-faith committee to look into the best ways to get a new building designed for the care of our senior citizens and handicapped people as well.

As I understand it,the member attended the meeting I think is that everybody have now agreed that the Paddon Memorial Hospital is not a suitable place, not a suitable building for that type of institution, That building ~ will become~as I understand it again-and my colleague, the hon. Minister of Public ~.J'orks-,can confirm this if he wants to or if JM- 1 he should- that building will be used as a public office building and wheels are now being put in motion to go about the business of establishing the need,which I am sure will be easily established .

The need is there to look for financing to build a suitable building which 'will be functional in terms of meeting the needs of the senior citizens. AN HON. :MEMBER: A commitment? MR. H. COLLINS: That is a commitment. I am making the commitment now that has been made before so that we will come up with the right type of building for a suitable institution to look after the needs of the senior citizens of that area of the Province, indeed of the Coast of Labrador as well. I am very happy to be able to confirm that. XR • SPEAKER: The hon. member for Baie Verte-White Bay. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr.

Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of 203 residents of the trailer court in Newtown area of Baie Verte. And in so doing, Sir, I do it in the realization that the actual orayer of the petition cannot be met in total by the government or by the Province of ~ewfoundland and Labrador. But this Province does have a Minister of Communications and it does have a Department of 5368

April 27, 1977 Tape 1930 ~R. RIDEOUT : Communications who can in some way take up the battle on behalf of those 203 residents of Baie Verte with the CRTC and the appropriate bodies of the Federal Government. J~- 2 It is in that spirit therefore that those people sent me this petition and asked me to present it to the House of Assembly,and it is in that spirit that I do so on their behalf. Now the prayer of the petition, Sir, is very simple.

It is that "1.J'e, the undersigned residents of Baie Verte.,would like to present to the member for the district this petition to the House of Assembly and the Canadian Radio-Television Commission on our behalf so that the residents of the mobile trailer court in the Newtown site may benefit by having the option of watching two television channels ! CBC and CTV,available to most other parts of Newfoundland. At present we have been discriminated against by not being able to have the choice of channels because the princ{pal owner of the cable tv transmission operated by Mr.

Alvin Gale of Baie Verte has not installed the cable wiring to the above mentioned areas of the town. ''We, the undersigned~have requested that CATV transmission include the mobile home trailer court and the Newtown site with the availability of the cable transmission for the past three years but to no avail. We request that the necessary action be taken so that this service may be supplied to our area.

We feel that if the service cannot be supplied by the present transmission systems owner~appropriate action should be taken to have a new operator in the area who is willing to supply this service to our area." Now, Sir, in supporting the prayer of the petition let me say that Baie Verte 1first of all must be one of the few, probably the only one as far as I know, - A1'l HON • }-ffiMBER: No • MR. RIDEOUT: Well it is certainly one of the few areas in this 5369

April 27, 1977 Tape 1930 .P-1 - 3 MR.. RIDEOUT: Province, one of the few communities in this Province that pay a monthly rate of $5.50 a month for the privilege of watching television. The old town area of Baie Verte is serviced by this CATV transmission as mentioned in the prayer of the petition and it is owned by Mr. Gale and that is also referred to. The company was in operation long before the trailer court was built and long before the Newtown site was probably ever conceived.

I understand that it is a condition of the operators licence that. he operate that service in the mobile home trailer park and in the Newtown site area. But despite the fact that those people had been requesting that service for the past three years they are still without it,and no action has been taken in this direction by the operator to provide them with the service.

All is needed is to extend the transmission line from the present locations a quarter or a half a mile or so into the Newtown site area and there are a couple of hundred families there willing to pay the $5.50 a month in order to watch the second channel. The remainder of Baie Verte is being serviced~ as I indicated,by this company for the past number of years so I see absolutely no reason why this operator should not be forced by CRTC to extend this service to all the town and if he cannot do that then the CRTC should be prepared to give the licence to somebody else who is prepared to do it. This

April 26, 19 77 . Tape 1931 RH - 1 MR. LUSH: petition, Sir, unlike many others that have been presented to this House,is not calling for any expenditure whatsoever on behalf of the government. All i·t is asking is that the appropriate ministry, Hhich is the ~-finistry of Communications 1 make the appropriate representation to the CRTC and press the case vigorously with the CRTC to have this operator live up to the conditions of his license. I believe it is a reasonable request.

I support the petition wholeheartedly and I hope that the minister will give the petition his full support and _support it vigorously bef9re the CRTC to 'vhom I Hill be referring it to now that it has been presented to this House. I ask that the petition be tabled and referred to the department to which it relates. SOHE HON. ~lEM:BERS : Hear, hear! ~!R. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. HR. S. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition presented by my hon. friend, the member for Baie Verte, Sir.

I sympathize with all these people in the Newtown part of Baie Verte who are forced to \vatch one channel on their television sets. I do not know if members are aware of it, t1r. Speaker, I do not knm-1 if members are 'aware of it or not, but the number of communities around this Province where they can only zet one channel on TV is amazing. Tne members would not believe the number of communities that are forced to watch The Edge of Night. TI1ey do not have the privilege to watch Another World because they only get CEC.

And in a lot of communities 'vl-en you turn on your set :j..t is just like a snow storm hit her. Now all over the Province, Sir, I can tell you in my m-1n district of LaPoile, Sir, Fox Roost, ~rgaree, one channel, Isle au ~'iort, one channel, Burnt Islands, one cnannel, Harbour Le Cou, Diamond Cove, Rose Blanc~1.e, one channel, Petites, one c!:lannel: L2Poile, one channel, Grand Bruit, one channel. ~. POODY: They cannot see Broph's Half Hour. :m. NE&_-q_Y: They can see Broph' s Half Hour down in LaPoile. They can hardly get one channel down there, there is so much snow on it. It just comes and goes. 5371.

April 26, 19 77 . Tape 1931 RH - 2 ~[R. NEARY: So, Hr. Speaker, it is about time that ~.;e did something about this. HR. DOODY: :'-IR. NEARY: ilow lucky are they now. \olell maybe they are lucky, Sir, in some ways. But, :fr. Speaker, I think that these people that live in the outports,in the rural parts of this Province are entitled to the same privilege as the people who live in the urban centres~in the cities,are entitled to.

I made a suggestion, Sir, some time ago in supporting a similar petition that the goverr~ent of this Province put in the transmitters or the repeater stations or whatever is necessary so that people all over this Province can get the second channel and lease it, lease it to the owners of the television stations. That is one way to do it, Sir. Obviously the private station has no intention of expanding. I have already been in touch a number of times with the owners. ~1R.. ROBERTS: The people then do not know what they have got. Are they going to do that? NR.

NEARY: They are being sabotaged, so >ve are told, by CBC selling commercials,undercutting their rates,and they are having a job to stay afloat from •.;hat we can hear these days. But, ~·1r. Speaker, even the CBC itself are very slow, Sir, to improve the service to people in the rural parts of this Province. I have been after the CBC ? I \vas a whole year trying to get a reply to a letter that I •rrote the regional manager here of the CBC about improving the service in my own district. I finally got a reply.

Then I \vas told that the service ~vould not be improved until 1978, I think it is.,and only then in one or two communities. So, Sir, it is a big problem. I have no hesitation at all, Sir, in supporting the prayer of the petition. I am sure th.:1t members on eit:1er side of the House will support the petition. But I do hope, Sir, that 5372

April 26 , 19 77 . Tape 1931 RH - 3 ~1R. . ~EARY: something will be done about it, it ~-1ill just not £all on deaf ears and that the government ~.,ill give some consideration to setting up these repeater stations, set up \vhatever is necessary to bring the tuo c!'lannels into the communi ties in the rural areas t:tat do not have two channels now and into Labrador and lease it back to tile private owners. I believe a satisfactory agreement could be worked out along these lines, Sir . '1R. SPEAKER : I believe t:te han . minis ter t.rishes to reply to the previous peti tion. And then I will recognize the han . th.e member for Port de Grave . 5373

April 27, 1977, Tape 1932, Page 1 -- apb MR. MORGAN: ~x. Speaker, in a brief comment on the petition from the hon. gentleman for Baie Verte - White Bay (Hr. Rideout), the problem of poor reception of broadcasing and television signals in remote and rural parts of our Province is a very real one that was recognized a number of months ago, in fact, possibly two years ago 1 when this govermnent met ~vith the federal minister concerned, and her officials, the hon. Madame_.

Sauve, and ~ve agreed to a federal - provincial, very intensive, and comprehensive study of the broadcasting and receptional signals throughout the Province. That study is now on the verge of being completed. It is of interest to note, to the hon. gentleman who tabled the petition, that the new legislation now before the House of Commons, put forward by the federal minister, there is a

section in that new legislation which indicates that now.for the first time ever the federal Cabinet can be given approval to direct the CRTC, which in turn will direct the licencee, any company issued a licence by the CRTC, to improve their signals, the signal strength. In this case the company or gentleman referred to apparently was issued a licence by CRTC, so that new legislation will now enable the CRTC, with the approval of the federal Cabinet, or the Governor -in-Council, to issue a firm directive to the CRTC to improve that signal to the people who are connected to the antenna system.

Of course, the same goes for the radio or television companies in the Province. So the problem is a real one. It is recognized by this administration, and in '"or king in co-ordination with th~ Federal Department of Communications it is hoped that now that the study will 5374

April 27, 1977, Tape 1932, Page 2 -- apb MR. HORGAN: · be completed in the very near future, we will be then sitting down at a ministerial level and hopefully finding solutions to overcome the problems we have in our rural, remote parts of the Province with regards to poor broadcasting and television signals. MR. SPEAKER: de Grave. The han. the member for Port MR. DAWE: I beg leave, Mr. Speaker, to present a petition on behalf of seventy-two residents of Halls Town at North River. MR. ROBERTS: If the hon. gentleman would permit.

I would like to say a word on behalf of ~he petition if the hon. gentleman would agree~and then ~ave him present his petition. MR. DAWE: I am sorry. MR. ROBERTS: I understood the han. gentleman from Port de Grave (r1r. Dawe) was intending to speak in support of the petition as submitted by the gentleman for Baie Verte - White Bay. MR. SPEAKER: That is agreeable. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I thank the hon. gentleman.

I shall not say very much except to say that I support the prayer of the petition, and as a number of speakers have indicated there are quite a . number of communities throughout this Province that have only one channel or really have none, that may be able to get something on the set but the reception is so poor that one might as well not have the set at all. I do not think there are anv parts of the Province now that do not have access at least to one channel no matter what the quality of it may be. It has been discussed in the House and possibly when the estimates of the Transportation and Communications 5375

April 27, 1977, Tape 1932, Page 3 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: Department are called for debate it is something we might quite fruitfully debate because the sheer fact of it is that whether CRTC can direct or not, the economics of the situation militate against - MR.' HORGAN: They cannot now. MR. ROBERTS: The minister says they cannot now,and the minister is correct. He says they can under the new legislation, and again he is correct. But the fact remains the economics of the situation militate against it, and it is no good the CRTC or the Cabinet of Canada directing an operator to do so~ething which is uneconomic.

That could be done to a limited extent but there comes a point when you cannot drive the mare any further. MR. MORGA.."''.J: Unless you get financial aid. MR. ROBERTS: Well, my friend, the gentlaman from Bonavista South (Hr. Morgan) has touched upon the point which is, Unless they give financial aid. Well now, that is the nub of it, r-1r. Speaker. And the nub of the prayer of this petition really is the question of who will pay? Either the marketplace pays or the public must pay through government. NovT I believe the marketplace ought to pay within the boundaries laid down.

I think in the case of Baie Verte the marketplace should be able to support this, an extra $12,000 or $13,000 a year in revenue~as I understand it. I would think the added cost of providing these people in this particular part of the town of Baie Verte with the cable to enable them to hook up to the television is minimal and so there ought to be a good profit in it. I do not understand why the operator of the syst .em in question has not done it, but that is something which I hope will come out. 5376

April 27, 1977, Tape 1932, Page 4 -- apb MR. ROBERTS: The larger question ~vhen you come to talk about the South\vest coast or come to talk of my district, or the Northern Peninsula on both sides, South of my district or the Coast of Labrador, or the other 53?7

April 27, 1977 Tape 1933 JM- 1 MR. ROBERTS: areas of the Province that only have access to one channel and the normal question that must be faced is one of cost~ because I think it must be accepted that in most instances it is not economically feasible for a private operator to do it. And whether we like the way the Newfoundland Broadcasting Corporation are carrying out their mandate or not that cannot change the numbers, it cannot change the basic economics.

And so my suggestion is~as it has been on many occasions~that the service has got to be provided by the public chest, assuming as I do that the service is a necessary one and one that people have a right to expect in this day and age. I think the Province ought to look at it. There are precedents. The government of the Province has helped particularily along the Southern Shore, We did fund a number of these communities.

I think Cape Broyle and Trepassey for two were funded by small grants from the old Community and Social Development Department and I do not know whether those grants are being paid off over a period of time or whether the amounts being contributed each month by the subscribers to the cable systems is simply enough to amortise or to carry the maintenance and the upkeep of the installations. But no matter what the arrangements~ think the principal must be accepted and when the principal is accepted then in turn we can work out the detailed arrangements. I think _ it is a reasonable request for people to make, Sir.

In this day and age access to two television channels is not a luxury. I think it is the basic right of every Canadian. I feel the government of Canada ought to make it available to every Canadian. They are making available by and large one channel, the CBC ., but they are certainly not doing everything that people want done. If there is one subject that I get more complaints on in my district than any other, any other subject you could name,the one that leads to the most complaints is the fact, Sir, that ~ve 5378

April 27, 1977 Tape 1933 J~1 - 2 ~. ROBERTS: could only get CBC television. If we can only get one we would like to have the private one. ~.Je would rather have two and if we have one we have the one we do not want. I think it is something the minister ought to look into. I think it is something where some constructive leadership would pay large dividends and benefits to the public interest and it is something I think we ought to do, Sir. I supp~rt the petition. MR.. SPEAKER: The han. member for Port de Grave. MR. DAWE: I beg leave, :-.1r.

Speaker, to present a petition on behalf of seventy-two residents of Halls Town at North River. The prayer of the petition is that, "We, the undersigned residents of this community of Halls Town, in the electoral district of Port de Grave, humbly request that you take the appropriate action to prevent the obstruction of a public road, or the right of way by the shoreline known as Newell's Road in this community. liThe end of this road has been recognized traditionally as a turning table~especially for fire-fighting equinment.

For your information this has been the public right of way for as long as can be remembered ~y the oldest residents of this community, certainly in excess of sixty years." And for the information of the House, Mr. Speaker, this petition developed primarily because a certain Mr.

Wiseman moved into Halls Town last year and bought a piece of land and n~N has built a new home there , And in fencing his land he has put his fence right dmm to the water's edge, and it being accepted in this community that no one but no one there can have the property to go down and fence off the right of way around North River or this pond as we know it• and thev are concerned that if this is permitted~and this man is permitted as I say to do this - ~. NEARY: ~fuo owns the land? 5379

April 27, 1977 Tape No, 1933 ~R. DAtVE: He does. Hiseman owns the land. - and that other people will move in there because this is a very popular position over there now, and other people will move in and they will do a similar thing. :'1R. SMALLWOOD: Is that a river or a pond or what? NM- 3 MR. DAWE: I would say it is a pond, a river and a pond, The river flows into the pond on North River. It is known as North River. ~. S~~ALLWOOD: You cannot. You cannot dare it, 1·fR.

DAWE: Well I was talking with the peoole at Crown Land and they told me that certain grants or deeds permit people to fence right down to the shoreline. So naturally these people are concerned that if this person is permitted to do the same other people can move in and it has been a tradition down through the years~as I sayqit has been a right of way around this pond or this river as it is know and they are afraid that other people will move in and do the same. So in supporting this petition, Mr.

Speaker, I share the concern of the residents concerned and I ask that it would be accepted and laid upon the table of the House and referred to the department to which it relates. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Twillingate. MR. SMALLWOOD: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the prayer of this petition and to say that in my own recollection I have known of only two cases in the 5380

April 27, 19 77. Tape 1934 l'K - 1 :fR. S~1ALUJOOD: !vhole of the history of Ne\vfoundland from 1497 to nm-1 \vhere anybody was given the right to bar off access to a pond a lake, a river or any kind of public \-later. The two cases 1vere, first and perhaps foremost, the land presently occupied by ~- !r. Andre,., Crosbie and known as Virginia ~.Ja ters. The Governor of Newfoundland, I think it was Sir Thomas Cochraneor Sir John T. Cochrane· who built Government House.,by the way, granted himself Virginia Haters and the right - this VJas subsequently confirmed by

an act of the House, of the legislature; and the other is the case of - 1r1hat is the Al-l RON. XE:'ffiER: ~ fR. ST:-IALL t-JDOD : }1urray 1 s Pond. No. vlha t is our friend over in - he 1-1as a member of the House here, he used to be an RCHP officer? MR. ROBERTS: ~fR. S~IALL'i.JOOD: George Xackinson. George }"lackinson. The other case is t' e case of ~fackinson 1 s on the Hodge VIa ter Line. :1R. ~ARY: Hurray's Pond is a private clubhouse. :·1R.

SHALUJOOD: He too I believe the original grant there gave him a right~or ti•.e people !vho owned it 'aefore hii11, the right to fence right do'vn to and including the edge of the water, and I do not knm-7 of any other case in Newfoundland. I do not think Sir Robert Bond had it., I do not think that anyone had it apart from those two cases. SOHE HON. ~1EMBERS : ~fR. ROBERTS: 7:ffi.. S~· iALU700D: :'fR. ROBERTS : :~R. s; 11\LL HOOD : ~"Iurray 's Pond ..... . Murray's Pond O\VUed the pond. Well that is not a public pond. No~but it should. The . 'finis ter of Justice Hould be able to enlighten us here I think.

He have no right to demand t:1at :1e d.o so but riparian rights I think are involved. Leader of the Opposition - ;raybe the :fR. ROBERTS : Riparian rights are by flowing water. 538~

_~_ oril 27, 19 77 Tape 1934 PK - 2 .:·IR. SHALL\JOOD: Yes ., ,.;ell that is ~.;hy I asked the han. member if it ~,ras a pond or a river, And I have not heard of very many ponds that did :-tot have r.vater flo~ing into or aut of them, so there is :.early al,.;ays or al~Vays flm-Ting \vater, 1•7e have a pond or a lake in Ne~vf oundland. 'v-ould involve rip.:2rian rizh ts. And that therefore I suppose And all my life I have grown up believing that in Newfoundland you could not bar the public from access to public ponds and rivers and other bodies of public ~ater. And so therefore I - ~- rn..

HICK2'~_,'_if: And the foreshore. ~1R. S~IALLWOOD: The foreshore. HR. HI CK.c'1A N : The foreshore. HR. SHALLWOOD: The foreshore .. you have to leave the foreshore free for the public. ?1R. HI~1.!'·N: 1910. ~ill.. S::·1ALLHOOD: That is Studley versus Samuel Harris Limited. That was a court case. But long before that court case only affirms what was already the fact, all that court case did I suppose was to reassert an established fact which must go back to Anglo-Saxon times in England that the public must not be barred from public waters.

And so I very heartily support the prayer of this petition' and hope that the minister- the minister is over there some,.;here one of these han. gentleman is the Hinister of Lands and Forests and surely - :Vffi. ROBERTS: The han. minister is away. Ai1' RON. MEMBER: )h : oh: LfR. S:HALLWOOD: Hell anyway he would be the one to just utter a stern reprimand and the prayer of the petition is thereby ;net. :T... \.JHITE: Do you have another petition? iffi.. S~·\L\.LUIOOD: ~r.

Speaker, I have the honour to request you for permission to present a petition to this House, The petition is signed by only thir~:'-nine citizens, but these are very reputable and prominent citizens in the tmvn of Tizzard 's Iiarbour in the district 5382

April 27, 1977 Tape 1934 PK - 3 ~!r . Smallvood: of Tvillingate~r,.;rhich I have the great honour to represent here, and this is the second netition of its kind that I have presented to the House. It is got up by the Primary Lodge, the ~oyal Orange Lodge, LOL No. IIB under the jurisdiction of the Provincial Grand Lodge of the Province, 5383

i\pril 2 7, E' 77 ';ane PlS asldn~ the T-l'ouse to bar the opening of clubs sellin,P" alco,.,ol:ic ]iauors, t~ere are onlv tbirtv-nine siP"naturRs to the netitioP frn~ the 18r~e thev are even a tt is nn]_v the secon~ petition to reach us ~arrin~ t~e sPle oF li0uor or ~eer, intoxica.tin?' r1r1n!rs 7in cJu~s on Snnc1ay. It is my ~uty to DTPsent it -Pn~ T present it '-ecauc::e it ::!.s T"Y rutv to ro so. I ~.mu)(l pre-Fer as t-he !"'eT'1her fnr t;,e ristric-t t~Pt a fe··· thousono neople s..;rrnec :it.

T'\"l.en I could present it r-rith faT mnre ent\;usias;n_ ti~_an J. fee] at the nresent T"n~ent. praver of th~s petition, as!r pern"issjor.. to lav it on the table of the ' 1 ouse and that i.t be referrec to the c1eD2.TtT"ent to vrh::!.ch it relates. I ·Frmld i!"!atdne th?-t IT'1JSt he the Premi_er. I ro TIC1t kno~·· rib.at other r.ef'C'I.rtT'1ent it con] ct rela .te to. The l'enart1'"ent of fina .ncs: in charge of all th<Jt stuff. C:T'"' -~ T,..-,:;'-.:'0 o '- •••• ! .... '~ .. 'The hon. memher for taPoiJ e. F~. NEA~Y: "r. C:::peal<-e-r, T rise to SUTJrnrt the rn'lyer (If t~e oeti_tion presented.

I heljeve this is the tlcirr1 petition nm·•. ')"he secnnc1 I think. ~"!'_. NF,I\ "Y ; ~o, the thirc1. '~~on. ~rien~ presentec1 t~n anc1 the hon. ~e~her I relieve froM 3ellevue c~·r. rallan) presenter one. So it Jcoks to rre, "'-'r. 2neaker, lik-e there is an or~?nizei' f!'ove!!lent nndelT?.y -nrT,~ hv the ~re.3_t Lov;:Ll \lrange Associatjon in this Province to put an eno to serviP~ 1 j auor in pnT-,1 i c estahl i shTT",ents en <:'Lmcav. i:l.r-lr:' prayer. 5384

. ~priJ 27, F'!77 B-2 congregation gat~er-instea~ of roing to church they go to these secret rendezvous that ~ave a hAr. 'l'rev are kno"m as the Chapel for Shut-ins. "r. Speaker' I thin!· j t is rea] lv rynocritical, c: j_r, T,!hC'.t Pe have c<cne to our society. I have heard it saic1, ~'r. Speaker, that this 5s a Move tn trv to g-et people to go to church on Sunc1A.y. r,TelJ I sav to that, ''So ~-.rhat! p r,n,_at was wrong with people going to church on Sunday? Not a thing in thjs Forlr1. I rio not believe I he.ve 1'lissec1 a C::unc12v C"('I~J"~ to church in ten years myself.

I h.qve only T'!issecl three or fC1u..- jn a'-lc-nt tr..•entv vears :2:0i!"~ to cl;11rch on C::nncav. I f.O to church everv Sunday ancl it bas not done J'Tle any haT'!"'")altl-,ough the hon. the Pre!llier !!lay thjnk so so!"'etimes. I c1o not th:ink it is a !T!ove to get people to go tn church at all, Sir. I think oec-p]e will only gc to church if they Fant to, if trey v.rant to set a C?ooc1 ex:amrle for their chi] dren and they ~.;rant to learn abont the ten co,.,rnandments and Jearn tn be decent, honest to goorlness citizens C1f tlr::i s ~ .. rorJ d. T .. ihat is the text? It is not a text, Sir. Hr.

Speaker, r rlo not thi!1k it v.mulc1 do any harm. at alJ ~vith the great rrohleil" of alcoholism that r.ve h~ve jn this "ro,riPce, I c1o not think it \·70ulr1 c1o apv ;.,.qrm at all, to shut down the establishment fC1r one da.y. An0 j F oeopJ.e ~.r~nt to f!O to church, well and goo~. '"hey can go • ~ey se.v j t j s a democracy, it is a cemocratic country ~-.re live in. It is up to the cJergymen to entice tt>em into the churc~es i-F they so desire. 1 co not think this js the motive at aJl.

I rhiplc thi~ is a genuir-e ~ave on thA P~rt of the I/'A a.nd I hnT'Ie th<1t other or~"anizations Fi21 foJ.Jo~,T suit, a sjncere effort on the:ir pArt to cut r:lm.rn on the rrinkinR: ard the booz:in<:"" t~<'lt :Js ~r>in? on in thi.s nrovince especial1v a"l"lonf the young peopJ.e, .?.r"On~ the teenagers. It is a ~rPC1t rrc'rlem, "r. ~ne?.ker., C'T'.d it is ;;>. ~teD ;J" the r:l?"ht c:irect:iC"m in C".V opinion and I have no l"esit?tioD at P.Jl jn supportin~ the pr<1ver of t~e netit:ion. 5385

April 26, 1977 Tape 1936 PK = 1 Hr. Neary: I am not li1e my hon. friend - HR. SHALUlOOD: That is before the hon. gentleman became a Liberal. MR. NEARY: I am not like my hon. friend the member from Twillingate (Hr. Smallwood), I cannot say that my lips have never touched beer or hard liquor, I drank enough of it in my - MR. SMALLHOOD: I cannot say I never touched beer. MR. NEARY: Beer or hard liquor. HR. SMALL HOOD: No. }1R. NEARY: Hard liquor. MR. SMALL'i·lOOD: I can say that. I cannot say that I never touched beer or wine. t-fR. NEARY: No, Sir, ~..rell I cannot say that my lips ~ever touched wine either.

I would not consider myself to be a wino but I like a glass of wine, but I gave up drinking hard liquor and beer about nine years ago. I gave up smoking cigarettes I suppose about twenty-two years ago. I smoked two and a half packs a day. I am not testifying now, Sir, this is not Alcoholics Anonvmous. I smoke about maybe a cigar or two a day. I do not inhale it. MR. DOODY: You have a chew. MR. NEARY: And I gave up hard liquor and beer and I drank just as much as my hon. friend knows who sat on the floor in my hotel room manys a time when we guzzled it - MR. SMALLWOOD: No names now. 11R.

NEARY: - when we guzzled her back on Sunday mornings too by the way. No names. ~ 1R. SHALL WOOD: i:-fR. NEARY: Until we, got blind drunk, we did not know if r,1e >vere in the world or out of it. Ai~ HON . HE}fBER: Slo pped eh , s lop ped . MR. NEARY: Pardon? MR. DOODY: Stop ped drinking bu t changed to \vine . 5386

April 26, 1977 Tape 1936 PK - 2 HR. NEARY: I do not know if my han. friend has given it up or not, but I gave up hard liquor and booze, Sir. me any harm. It did not do MR. HR. HR. HR. ~IR. DOODY: NEARY: LUSH: NEARY: DOODY: I gave up cigarettes and cigars. Well good. Do not go all the way now. No~I am not going to go all of the way, Sir. A second admiration society. NR. NEARY: No. There is one or two little privileges that I am not going to give up. AN RON. MEMBER: 1-iR. NEARY: I should hope so. But, Mr.

Speaker, I think that it is about time that we took a look at this opening of clubs and taverns and bootleg joints and so forth on Sundays - HR. DOODY: On Saturday nights after twelve o'clock. HR. NEARY: I believe it is time to shut down some of these secret rendevous, these non-official Chapels for Shut-ins. SOME RON. MEHBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLA.i.\1': Hr. Speaker, - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ ~IR. NOLAN: with the endorsement of my friend,the Minister of Mines and Energy, I rise to support the prayer of the petition. MR.

ROBERTS: He is going to take the pledge right here now. SOME HON. MEMEERS : The Orange Lodge. ~IR. NOLAI.\1' : I listened with great - yes, the Orange Lodge, I am glad to do it too. Yes. I am concerned with the Budget coming down as to how much money will be provided to offset that alcoholic problem we have in the Province and in Canada. 1:1R. ROBERTS: Right. That is a good point. NR. NOLA.i.\1' : It is one of the burning issues that is, it is just not a matter for the LOL or the LOA - is it the LOL? 5387

April 26, 1977 Tape 1936 PK - 3 MR. DOODY: The LOL, yes. MR • NOLAJ.\f : Yes, who brought in the petition. It should not be snubbed because it contains only thirty-nine names. I listened with great interest to the open-armec confession of the hon. member for LaPoile (Hr. Neary)" Not only ivas he willing to confess his own sins, but to drag in the Minister of Finance.

Well~ the ~finister of Finance has now gone from sitting on the floor in the hon. member's room in the hotel apparently years ago~to the chief of all the booze emporiums in the Province because he is the one that puts it on the shelves and rakes in the money, and He spend it. PREMIER MOORES: It is a sort of shelf. MR. NOLAN: It is sort of like that. I listened also, Mr. Speaker, - MR. ROBERTS : HP is coming up in the world. HR. NOLAN: I also listened with great interest. tc the hon. member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood) who can usually offer us a dissertation on many things in this House, but on his drinking habits or lack of them. His admission that he has from time to time sipped on a quaff of beer and also that he has not indulged in hard liquor, which is interesting because as an old colleague I can recall 7 I am sure he would not feel that I am confessing or providing information that is secretive, that he has been known - MR. ROBERTS: MR. NOLAN: Bristol Cream. MR. SMALLWOOD: MR. NOLAN: Al.\f HON . HEMBER: ~iR. NOLAl'l" : Watch Cabinet secrecy now. - to take from time to time the odd belt of Harvey's Yes. Yes.

That is a Temperance drink. About four or five. And I think, Mr. Speaker, with all respects if this House ever sets up any kind of a scientific committee to examine, and a scientific study of Harvey's Bristol Cream you will probably find that the alcoholic li~uor content in that will floor a horse. 5388

April 26, 1977 SOME HON. HEMBERS: ~ffi. NOL&~: So. Tape 1936 PK - 4 Oh, oh! But the situation regarding liquor is one that tve all have to face up to. Onf' ,there is a vecy serious problem of alcoholism amongst the young people. 5389

April 27, 1977 Tape No, 1937 NM- 1 :MR.. NOL...!\N: There are people who are working, sometimes they are scoffed at. They are not prohibitionists, many of them at all, far fro~ it,but they recognize a very real drug problem that we have and alcohol is a drug, Mr. Speaker, the same as nicotine, the same as all the other drugs we hear about on the market today, MR. NEARY: The oldest drug in the world. MR.NOI.A~: The oldest drug in the world,possibly, Now, }{r. Speaker, here is something that we cannot ignore. It is -a very real problem that we have within our society. MR.

NEARY: When are you going~to the Crosbie,' Bill'? MR. DOODY: A hotel room, ~ffi.. NOLAN: Of course, Mr. Speaker, it would be folly for me to try to avoid some obvious problems in cutting it out on Sunday. One is your massive tourist trade that you are trying to encourage in Newfoundland and all across Canadaiand I think that in most places today where people go to eat, whether it is hotels or restaurants or so on, they usually, or many of them,at least~demand - or on the Continent or anywhere else~ they demand and get a glass of wine or a glass of beer or whatever. MR.

NEARY: That is not what they are talking about. MR. NOLAN: I know it is not what they are - I hope it is not what they are talking about, But the other thing is this, that by closing down the liquor establishments on Sunday there is a very real possibility that you will open up again what we have now eliminated and that is the bootlegger. It is as simple as that and I would be a hyuocrite if I di~ not lav it on the table. MR. ~1URPHY: A good,legi_timate business,you can get it an hou~ of the day or night. MR.

NOLAN: There was a lady, the hon. friend and I used to know:who used to sell you a bottle with a holy picture. Yes. MR. ROBERTS: You bought the- holy picture, vere given the bottle. HR. NOLAN: Right, Yes, 5390

A!)ril 27, 1977 Tape No, 1937 NM- 2 MR.. NOLA.."l : Mr. Speaker, if I may be permitted o.ne more minute, my hon. friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) made reference in some of his escanades, and some of the people that he associated with in those days. Therewas one gentleman that I knew who used to embibe a little down at the Cochrane~! believe, and he did not drive, an old friend of my friend and myself in fact~and he one night left -he never drove by the way, always walked .-and he went up to a place called the Country Store, which was held up at St.

Pat's; wheels of fortune and different games and so on, and he was, I must say he was feeling the brew,and he went in and with I say drunkard's luck, but I do not mean it in that way, he certainly was not a drunkard,he went in and bought tickets on everytning and by golly he won everything, cases of so~p, sets of dishes, teddy bears, pandas, turkeys, chickens, the whole issue, so much so in fact that he could not bring it home, And all I can tell you in closing, Mr.

Speaker, that when his dear and sainted ar.d late mother woke the next morning she found when she opened the fridge here was the teddy bear, and when she ,.,1ent up to bed here was the son with the eviserated turkey, so on that note I will close, ~r. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Ah dear, Mr, Speaker! My I open my few remarks by saying that,~ine is a mocker and strong drink is raging/Look not upon the wine when it is red.

I have listened to the support that has been eminating from the hor,, gentlemen opposite and there is a very significant message corning through that apnarently most, if not all,of the consumption of alcoholic beverages used to take place at least in the capital city, because most of their escapades took place in various hotels. Mr. Speaker, no one can overlook gainsay or the concern, particularly of parents~ of drinking amongst teenagers. But may I also~ before we become too critical of that age groun, may I also direct Your Honour's attention to the 539:1

April 27, 1977 Tape No. 1937 ~ . HI CKMAN : very strong Allied Youth movement we have in this Province. It is in all the schools. It is student initiated, student oriented. I believe that the next national president of the Allied Youth, tre president elect,is a young lady from my constituency, from the town of St. Lawrence, I believe I saw that in the paper quite recently. Rut be that as it may, there is a very very strong group at work in our school system. that the students have initiated. We have tried in the past.

I had the distinct honour of being the Past Recording Scribe of Grand Division Number Nine of the Sons of Temperance. MR. SMALLWOOD : IBT? MR.. HIC~..AN: Of the Sons of Temperance. MR.. S~ILWOOD : IOBT? NM - 3 MR. HICKMAN: No. No. And in fact it was the last

chapter of the Sons of Temperance in Newfoundland. There used to be one in Epworth and one in Grand Bank and they both seem to have departed this world about the same time. There is still one left? 5392

<\nrn 2 7, 1. '? 77 ..,.,ape 1938 P-1 •.ro S~fALI_FOOn: ':'f>ere is one jp St. Thomas . 0~ t~at is Jon~, lon7, long ~efore. h;.d tr ere i.s still ~ne I reliev~ in °a]ifax.

I a~ not sure th~t t~e namp was a cnrrect cne,hec2nse it PP.s really not tb.e SoT's of Temperance ~od.ety, it '' 7 aS a ""otal ,\.1-stjnence Sodety~ancl cd.nl·ing ':·"aS ;:o.J...sollctely ~rrhil-,:i_t::eri. !Je U!"ed tn have ?reat ar?llments Hhen Fe •·'ere ycmng over the ""ern~erance teC'I. and the 1'emperance dance hecause r<~e htd a fel1 mo1 useil to pJay the accordion in Gr<mc Banl< ,<'1,-.d he coulc1 not r lav unless h.e hac! a f eP c1rinks and "'e usec1 to 11ave to hire h.ir- t0 nJ.a;r for t:le cance apr t~e-r 01~r elcers Foulc find out about it and t!:e next fl'l.eeting: there vmuld he a Preat resolution - to call a halt to that terrible thin~ that ~e hail clone tre r<~eek J...efore.

There !'1av be P lot of "'.erit, vr. Speah~r, in v7 h8.t is cal1ec the Jocal o~tion that you find in certain parts of :0Torth /l..merica. nne leas tn hesitate. I concur -.:·:ith Fhat the l,on. "!"'el;'t>er for ~once-ption ~ay South (~rr. Nolan) has sai(l, thCI.t if you lepis}ate it out of existence you !T'ay be encour~q:tinf something Forst, n;rrneJ.y bootle??ing. 3ut i.n certcjn areas you have the ~ ocal onti.o-r.. :r think th.ett to rnv knc:n·1 Jedge - for instance,put-Li .c opinion is still .c::u.fficientlv strong in ~y hoT"e f:OT•rn th<1.t I am nCit ;:~.vare of anv bars th.?t are onen on Sunc1ay.

But thpt is a T"atter of local nreference. l.re there any hars in Grand Bank? Yes, there is one and then there is the liauor stCire. '!'here are other p]aces in my o~•'Tl constituency ,,,here T knor,r that the locaJ o-otjor. ~.;r.uJ cl rlictate thct they be open on Sundays. "ost plac~s are onen at least six c1.?vs a week. I a.i'1 not a~,T<tre of six days a '·7eek,bnt he that Cl.s it mr~v I think rife shou 1 r1 .?11 share the concern of the Loyal nrCI.r.g-e Loclse. !lnrl 1-:hat t,_,P.'-' ?re, T ,_,elie~re, re?.11v seekin~ in their petition, "r.

Sne;-:>h~r. is not so "'11C1- <171 ahsolutP pr0l:P·dtion hut tl-,.?t then' 1-e evirlee1ce o~ concern for t-rl:at CC'n conceivah]v he a verv)an~ mavt-.e ,qJ.r~~(!v js, :=!.rather !"PT"ious f'T"C'h1en.-. in this T'rovirce, n<tl'!:'e]v the ;orem.t.?te control ;;_ncl the temperate use of alcoholic beverages 5393

!\pril 27, P77 T-q-2 ~he ~on. ~emre~ for Port au Port. '·'r, ~ne:J 1 ~er, T r,e? leave to present a petition on hehalf of 1~6 voters from t~e ~istrict of Port au Port, speci~ica~ly praver of tr~e petit:io!1 is, •·r.re~t~e nnc1ersi£mec! res:iC!ents of !:.ourrles, '·1interrouse anc1 Ele. cl~ nucJ: ?roo)- on th~ Port au Port Pen i_nsul a ~'"o hereby reauest the upgracing and p.avin~ of the stretch of roacl exten~jnf. fro!"! Lourdes to Black 1"1uck Br0ok. ,. Point. PJ ack.

"'ncJ.- P,roo1r is the 1 ast C0r'!"'unj ty on the ~T<"rthern D<'lrt of t'he "ort au Port Peninsula An.d the roAr1 is pave<l to tJ:1e COT"T"un5t;r of Lourdes and there are seven to ei p:ht ri~ es J.eft unpC~. ver1 ~running- trroug:h part of the coml"un:i't~r of I.ourcies t0 the coT"muni.tv of Finter."'ouse anr1 to ~lack nuck ?.rook. ~:rorv cludn? the Sprin)?' anc curin~ P8t periocls jn the ~urnrner >the l.ast tT.oro niJ es of the road, ~·:rh i ch goes p<~.st Black T'lnc.J· B-roo1' or ~->hich Jear1s jntn the col"nmni .tv nf 'P.1ack nucJ- P·rool·:~ceccrr,es near]v i~nassable. Also, ''r.

SpeaJ.-er, thi.s ro::td is llSPrl ry fishel!!'en Fhc travel to Blue Beach. ¥1 ue Beach i.s the 1 ar~est fj shi!lS area iT' the district. It is at t h t=> encl of. I,onf7 Poi_nt and etJ1 thP c<'!.tch fn-,.1'1 this narticula< - it is not a fishin?: CQ!!11"1tmity Pctually; it js a plctce \·!here fishermen go in the Summertime and every YPE!r it is hecordng lar~er .::~nd l.ar~er.

I.ast yP.ar they had sixty 0r seven tv hoa ts thPre ~.1'1d this yee>.r it fs expected, perhap~, to ~ouble. ~'t'OOk, then t~ere ~nu]d not ~AVP tO ~e ann fradinp whatsoever C'ln p]J th<1t nnrtior etf tre Pen~T'JsttJ ~ 1-eca1.1se T. nncerste>.nrl that part of the road 'f"h ' ere n eecs 5394

1';,pe 1 °3P ~ring thejr qra~inp ecuin~ent tnto th~t narticular ~reB ~t ~1 1 5335

April 27, 1977 Tape No, 1939 MR. HODDER: I ~-Till say, Mr. Speaker, that there are 105 voters in this particular area and the petition is signed by 106 voters, so obviously since the voting list - but it is signed by everyone in those pArticular communities and I believe that the road does not need a lot of work upgrading and that I do hope that the minister will look on this petition and do something for the people of this area. NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communiciations. ~ffi. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, just a few brief comments on the petition.

The road referred to 1 I recall travelling over that road last Summer, the latter part of the Summer, as indeed I travelled over many of the gravel roads throughout the Province during the past year.

The hen, gentleman mentioned that I indicated the road to the community of Mainland on the Port au Port Peninsula was a priority; well I · have often said in this House of Assembly and I ~.rill say it again today that all the gravel roads throughout Newfoundland and Labrador which need reconstruction in preparation for paving are priorities, But each and every year there is a certain amount of funds allocated in the Budget to the Department of Transportation and Communications, which means there is a limitation in the amount of work that we can do around the Province.

That road,last year:to Mainland,for example,we carried out reconstruction and we put on a surface on the road to make it a half decent road to travel over althou~h it is not paved.

So that road and the road out to Blue Cove - where the fishermen - which I travelled over last Summer, and met with the fishermen out there, with the hen, member for the district, that road.of course is important to these fishermen, who commute back and forth every day to Blue Cove, So roads of that nature they are priorities . but again there is a limitation as to how much ~vork we can do each year <i But hopefully funds can be made available sufficient 5396

April 27, 1977 Tape No, 1939 NM- 2 MR. MORGAN: to carry out the necessary road work that needs to be done throughout the Province in the next three, four, five years. In the meantime I can assure the hon. gentleman the roads referred to ~vill get consideration by the department and by the minister concerned. MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. membe'r for Windsor-Buchans, MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I rise to support the petition so ably presented by my hon, friend from Port au Port (Mr. Hodder), In supporting the petition, ~r.

Speaker, I admit there is something that puzzles me and I would have hoped that I would have supported this before the minister spoke because I have never been able to determine the criteria on which the Department of Transportation -decides on what roads are to be paved and what roads are not to be paved. Now I have travelled the roads that the hon. member refers to in the petition and I recognize the importance to the economv of the whole area that that particular road means. You kno~v I take up the paper and I see tender calls by the Department of Transportation.

I noticed one a few days ago,I think it is fourteen miles from Kings Point to the Springdale Access Road 7 and I mean that is obviously a road that will be paved, the tender call is out, And what I am wondering is what is the criteria? How do we pick those roads? MR. MORGAN: Twenty-five miles in Bonavista North. MR. FLIGHT: Twenty-five miles in Bonavista North. I am not suggesting anything but one day I would like the minister to indicate, MR. MOFGAN: Long overdue. MR. FLIGHT: And, Mr.

Speaker, sometime this past three or four months I think the minister made a statement that he had saved $5 million on road construction last year and that he was now calling tenders, and no~Y" going to do some work this year prior to the budget coming down, earmarked funds that were saved last year. And there are 5397

April 27, 1977 Tape ~o. 1939 ~- 3 MR. FLIGHT: a lot of people in this Province, ~ir. Speaker, who believe it was not necessarily a saving but it was $5 million being put into a war chest for the next election. But the toad condition got so bad - MR. MORGAN: Point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order, it may sound like a trivial point of order but it is important to me, the minister concerned,because the hon. gentleman just ~ade a statement which is. not correct.

The statement I made with regards to the $5 million to be spent this year, which was saved from last year, that was not what was said, that was in connection with the DREE agreement. Last year when we signed a DREE agreement a number of projects had to be approved under the agreement. Ttle called tenders for these projects. When the tenders were received they were lower than the estimates of the department and therefore there were some savings. We are spending that money this year,with the aoproval of federal government, ~ut only that $5 million we are talking about, not provincial funds. 5398

:lpr:il 27, 1977 'T'ape 1 Old) If.-1 vp , SPF:.A f1<'P : ~efore recognizin~ tte bon. ~e~ber, there is no carefnl not to enter. i.nto clehc:1te. left. clarification ~ecause the Province could use that clarification, vr. Spenker. 'rhere is S0rr'e feel ;T',.. Cl"'On~st people Fho 1 l''e in communities who have been waiting for years and years and years to have roacls oaverl;and so~e of the roa~s in ~Y mm district t~at v;ll arp1v to. And there Pas a feeling thA.t rnavhe these funds r-;ere eArC"art-ecl for paveTT!ent twc- years c!m·m t1~e roc>.f!.

However, thev acceot the fact th<'l.t the roads in this Province h.ave 7-:0 tten so had that tr.e. depart!llent had no choice but to start spendin2 that ~oney th~t thev wo1Qd have . cearly love(! to h<'l.Ve had tv.r0 or three years rOv'Tl the roacl •A.,_en an eJection is ~ue. vr. Speaker, I heartily sunport the netition. vr.

SpeA.ker, I asl· peYmissioP of the Hon~e to table the folJm-:in7 rep.-ulA.tions: 'I'rese are reg-ttlations in connect:icm ,,-ith hip~way traffic fees, re~ulations in connection t•ith rotorized snow vehi.c] es and aJ .1-terra:fn vehicles <1.nd a] so r.:rith the hi\'"h..way traffic regulatjons in connection F;th snow clearin~ onerations i.n the Hinter rnont~s. ~??.A.IZ"E": - -- ~_.;_.:....;_;:.c.. __ _ The hen. "inister of Justice. "!' . vr. ST:'e.::l.ker ~ I ta'hle the annual repo-rt to the T.ieuten[lnt Gover!'or of Ner.v·foundland as reauirer1 hy the f:riT"'.i.na.l rode of r.;:maoa,

section 17, 178.22 for 1~7f. and an a!T'end!"'ent tC' the A"!"'tlltal re:port of 1'075 to Pis TJo!'our, t!1e T.jeutenPnt-Governor rP.C11_,i;e.r 1 tu.,_rle-r the ~e hon. Minister of ''anroPer and Industrial "elat:lr:ms. ,., • "D'ppv n..,rl· ro~...,J·s~J-1'1n It r":fp-ht '-,e. of' ~T'.terest to r.he :"ET"'hecs '·· ,....,_ , • 1_ . -· ; c~ • • • ,_. ,.. ., . J , of the ~~011se, ''r. Sner1l·er, if J 4ust IT'en.t:!cm th.nt t:hP.-re ,.rere Sr!TT'P 5399

:'1 Dr :i.l 2 7 , 1 n 7 7 I"S-2 4 ,0'10 acres of J.apd in the Pippy P!'!r]: and the control] ec arei'l. ~"-C un tn "arch.. 31, 1 q76 ~.;-e l~~r acoujred aJ.r.ost hnlf the nronerties, a t:otal. of 1.,400 tr r'le I'ippv :::2r 1• rl'T"T"iE:sion, and 2lso ar.nu:irec' the title to ah01Jt ?0" ode <teres of the 1 ,41lQ acres in t~e :'jnny narl.· and also i~ t~e controlle~ ar~a ~h~ch is anproxi~atel~ 2,Sno or 2,7'10 acre~.

In 1975-1976 r,re acauirec:l 425 acres in this area of vlhich - Fhat is the >'"rc.nd total at tl:'.e ~orent of the 4,"0f1? (H the 4,n'ln. ~hout l,Pnn, acres. ~~ere are st~ll about 15'1 rroperties to ~e acC1uirecl. '-"' ?Tfo'A.r>"Y: A.re v('lu naying _<::51J;'()" a ye~r? ~, 1='0PSSF/\T': nn the hucl?et? toward the cost of Pippy Park. After soT"e extractions, ~--T'- SP!" ;~rrr.~ Tl,efcn:-e C21lin:o: ~ioti ces of "otion r T•7 f'Uld noint Otlt to hon.

MeT"~ers the presence in the ~allerv of repre~entatives from the tovn coun.c:ll of Centreville in Ronavista ::.;orth. f'rec Green, cnunci1lors, 1·7 m·'?rr ,~_cke~c>.n, "''no~P.s "Pickett an~ '··'?.lco::r. Pickett. I lrno~-' hon. tT'el!'bers j oin Me jn r.relco!"in(" th<>se )"e!'lt1el'!'<?n to the Rm,se of Assembly. '"ea.r, rear: Th..e ron. "inisteT" oF "<mpoPer and Inrustrjal f'eJat:i<"'ns . I r.ave the e.nsr.re .rs to questions 185,211 pnd :'.16. I 81" embarPRsec t0 sav t\;e h.on. r"e!"ber for J.aPoiJ e ("r. ~'earv) or the ~rn0~ and these thin~s.

'rril 27~ 1~77 Tnne 1 Qf:!') I:1- 3 "r . Speah~r, I ,~c:- no t k~c,·: if i t ic; 1-.ecau!'>e it :<; f.cu r-t: hir.tv hue Pe are r'ot•·n to 0ne, l:'~·'n , t"' re e , f!<"'l''!", fjve, -.~ x ~il"iste r s ~n~ i t i~ e~ traor~ ina r il~ ~if c iculc cr ~s~ - T ~a~ a ~ue ~ti cn ~'= re ;:or t ~P "j. n j. ~ter C'lf fj s~er i PS t h <!t T. :,eli eve j t is irnnortant. c~n t~e f!OVetTlT"ent Pouse ! eader - is t her e is anv •·'PV t o - V01l 1-'not.T, I vnoto: - MR . NOLAN : TI-e Prer i er chect·ed .

The Pre..,..;e r rir. co :-.e t.._e cou :- te.!': ~ · to .:>c::- whether c:her e we re a;1y o•test :i..ons fn r ~-,iT" . !Jut inr1eecl I 1~ave .illf:t Slt.?-'gestef to thP. clcrh; Pe co a lj tel e resea r ch. '·!e I" · vh t look at ch.::tn?i T'a t l'P 0rr'er of ~11siness so t!-- ~ t ()uestton P er:jod was f j rst I"'!" ~ econc r.r.rl t~en 5= ministers hacl to po for. scl"ethin g else, they could .

I t-:Hl have r:o r->aj t fo :- the ~'in i scer ot "F' ishe r i es ~o r that one. !.et !"'e aslr t he ~'lni.s tPr of Justice in t he absei"lce of t he "ini ste r o~ nne.nce..,and tbe ab s ence of the PT P.~ier, bas ;Jry - erliato r as ye1: ~ ee r! a!'nointed fo r the ':?aterford s i t uc-.ti<'n. ! und erstan d i t is entra i n and can t h~ l!'inister b rjnp. us op to cate r:\flcl tell us t··rere ~--e are ole~se . ''!' !'"?~ ,~ ;{f.!> : 'M;e "ot'l . ''ini.s t:er cc Jusci ce . 'fT> l{J:C!c-fM!: '"'r.

Spe ak er, I arno t in a nos i t ior>. to r rinr che reus e u~ to ~~te nn thn t ~2tter ~Pcau se ~uice fran klv I ~av e not hec an orrortunicv t Cl C:M. .~ .k t n my c:ollea?.ue, the hon . " inis ter "of ri:~ance,

April 27, 1977 Tape 1941 PK - 1 Mr. Hidc.cl'-2.:-1: --- ------ since this time yesterday. MR. :l'OLA.L~ : How about the Minister of Labour? ~·fR. RICK.i'1&'l': I cannot answer. Maybe my colleague the hon. Ninister of Industrial Relations and Manpower can answer the question, I cannot. MR.. SPEAKER: The han. member for Eagle River, follm.;ed by the ~on. gentleman for LaPoil~. &~RON. tmMBER: The Minister of Manpower wants to answer it I think. MR. SPEAKER: Did the han. minister stand up to answer the question? MR . ROUSSEAU: Yes. ~1R. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of l'!anpowe r and Indus trial Relations. MR.

ROUSSEAU: It is my understanding thus far -that Treasury Board and the hospital administration, I presume, and the unit are meeting in an attempt to resolve the question of who would mediate the strike, znd some agreement on the terms of reference. I think terms of reference have been supplied by Treasury Board, and I would assume that the talks between both sides will resolve whether the terms of reference are suitable or not and whether one suitable mediator can be agreed on. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. .AN RON. MEMBER: A mediator has not been found vPt, MR. ROUSSEAU: No. HR.

STRACHAN: A question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications. As he is probably aware from telegrams , the Community Council of Cartwright has closed down the roads once more so the school bus and the trucks and so on are not able to use the roads, and they have requested his department to take over the jurisdiction of the reads in Cartvri~ht. Could the minis:er inform us of any development in these affairs and ~.;rhet h er the Council can look forward to anything in a positive vein? MR . SPEAKER: The han. ~'linister of Transportation and Communications. ~ -f R. NORG.AN: ~lr.

Speaker, yes I will confirm that a telegram was received today from the ·cartwright Community Council. It indicated 54D2

April 27, 1977 Tape 1941 PK - 2 MR. :MORGAi'l':. in the telegram that conversations had been held with a Hr. Corbett so I am of the opinion that they had been talking to ::1unicipal Affairs, and the telegram apparently \vas meant for the ~1inis ter of Hunicipal Affairs more so than myself. However the situation is of concern to us because in Cartwright last Summer, I saw the road conditions.

So I will be now discussing the matter, the telegra.rr:.~received 1 with my colleague the Hinister of ::funicipal Affairs and Housing to detennine what can be done, if anything can be done, in the Community of Ca~twrigh~,and hopefully \ve will be in a position to give a reply to the Cartwright Council in a matter of days at the most. HR. ROBERTS: A supplementary. HR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. !:'ilL ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to my friend's question.

Could the minister tell the House how much of the road around Cartwright)or around that part of Sandwich Bay in which Cartwright is located, with the community on one side of a bite and the so-called mission side, the IGA side, a lit~le distance away, how much of that road is the responsibility of the Department of Transportation and Communications? ~fR. SPEAKER: MR. HORGAi'-1' : The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. Mr.

Speaker, the indication that I have from talking to the officials in the department, and also from meeting with the Council at Cartwright last Summer, the road leading all of the way from the government wharf on the Hudson Bay side , if you wish, - :'1R. ROBERTS: The community side. MR. MORGAN: Yes, the community side- all the way around to the Grenfell Nission is under the jurisdiction of the municipality. They have been receiving grants from government for maintaining that road over the past number of years, and based on that therefore :hey have received responsibility for the road.

Hmvever r,;;e do give consideration to places like Cartwright,for example, where we recognize the fact that Council cannot avail of the funds themselves from their own means 5403

April 27. 1_977 Tape 1941 PK - 3 Hr. Horgan_:_ to carry out the necessary work and it may be necessary for the two departments to get together and to hopefully determine some kind of a solution to the problem. ~IR. ROBERTS : A further supplementary. HR.. SPEAKER: A further supple~entary. MR..- ROBERTS : Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister, and a supplementary grows out of his answer as a good supplementary should.

Could he tells us whether then~ are any other co!I'Jlluni ties in this Province - where the "main road" is not the responsibility -the "main road" is in quotation marks, because it is a term of art, a term of definition as opposed to a description as such - where the "main road" is not the responsibility of the Department of Transportation and Connnunications, with the exception of some very small communities along the Coast of Labrador that effectively have no roads? For example, Marys Harbour has no road. I mean, I do not even know if there is I a truck there at present in Marys Harbour.

There may be a few trucks, but there is no road,

whereas Cartwright has a definable road, It is five or six miles by road I would hazard from the public wharf around to the Mission Station. Is there any other community in this Province where a comparable situation exists, where a municipality is responsible for trying to maintain five or six miles of road that is by the normal process "the main road"? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there is a number of these roads. One I can use as a good exar.ple, maybe, is the road in the community, and on the island really, of Change Islands.

Last year when I visited the Community of Change Islands it was brought to my attention then that there is almost four miles, 3.7 5404

April 27, 1977 Tape No. 1942 NM- 1 MR. HORGAN: miles of a road on the island which was under the jurisdiction, the responsibility of the municipality._ They had been requesting funds and , of course ; they were unable to supply the necessary forty per cent required under the sixty - forty programme in :'-funicipal Affairs and Housing Department; and because of that my colleague at that time, the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housing, my colleague from Green Bay (~r.

Peckford), and myself, we got together and worked out a programme whereby we arranged to call tenders t"o have that work carried out because it was virtually im~ossible for that community,in a form of a municipality~to raise the necessary funds to carry out that work. But that road was strictly under the jurisdiction of the municipality, not our department. But we made an exception to that rule and I run hoping that maybe possibly the same thing can be done for places like Cartwright, and recognize them as special areas where these remote parts of Province,like Island communities, like St.

Brendan's or Change Islands, places of that nature, and particularly the Labrador Coast. HR. SPEAKER: I will recognize the hon. member for LaPoile, and that would not preclude hon. members from coming back later if they get the opportunity. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the minister responsible Sir, _for the environment. \ve all read this in the morning news Sir, with great alarm and concern, the story about deformed rabbits being found~in and around , near the phosphorus plant at Long Harbour. Does the minister have any statement to make on this?

Can the minister confirm whether or not this is correct? ~. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. 5405

April 27, 1977 Tape No. 1942 N}~ - 2 HR. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I was rather alarmed when I read the headline myself. We had been aware of the fact for some five or six weeks that people had reported that they had caught rabbits that were deformed. Apparently our department was of the opinion that it was no fluoride concern, it was a natural phenomena, but they referred it to the Department of Wildlife who have forwarded at least I think two or three specimens on to - and it is not the laboratory that the mounties use but some other one that looks after anL~als. But we still have not got the report back.

But I spoke this morning with Hr. Downey, my Assistant Deputy Minister, who informs me that if fluoride were a part of it he thought that the older rabbits would be more affected than the newer rabbits because fluoride, the content there was at its lowest ebb at this particular time 7and the older rabbit being three or four years older would have naturally been browsing much longer and shown the effects. But that is not it. Thar is not the case.

So as far as we are concerned there is no fear of fluoride but ~V'e do not know until whatever they do with these things - have a post mortem or something else on the darn things and analyze the whole works - but we still have not got the report back but it is being done through the Department of Wildlife rather than our Environment Department. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. ~. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I know we are all concerned about the animal vegetation in that area but we heard all kinds of conflicting reports over the past several weeks and several months.

I know I have had the same reports that the hon. minister just referred to about the animal life in that area, but I am more concerned about the people that live in the area. Would the minister tell the House if his 5406

April 27, 1977 Tape No. 1942 NM- 3 MR . NEARY: department has any procedure whereby they monitor the atmosphere in that area to make sure that the lives of the people, especially in Long Harbour, are not being affected by any pollution from the phosphorus nlant, ~. SPEAKER: MR. MURPHY: The han. Minister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. Mr. Speaker, we are kept very much on our toes by the hon. member for Placentia with reference to that.

And on several occasions, as a matter of fact he was the one that brought the rabbit to our attention, but we monitor the air, I think they call it the ambient air, the surr~unding air, something like we do in Baie Verte area, for samples 7 and there was a presence there. I mean anybody- those here in the House whose minds can go back ~en or twelve years, - the one great fear expressed was the establishment of this plant there. Then the subsequent parade on the House of Assembly, and I can see the old gentleman holding the bottle of water down in the lobby of the hotel now, and the red fish, this type of thin~.

But it is being monitored very regularly Sir, yet there is always the fear. The vegetation I think has been affected considerably, One of the facts that arose 7 I think, there - was it last year? Was there a closedown, 'Bill I? there a strike or something there for a month or so last year? AN HON. MEMBER: Tlo70 years. ~R. MURPHY: Well whenever it was. But after that it was amazing the amount of new shoots that lvere coming out on some of the vegetation that previous to that closedown had not been there. So there is some effect on it, 5407 Has

there is no c!on~t a"nut ·it 1'ut it is at its J.or,7 est ebb. I th~nk th:is •-:as either - T co not think it FCl.s the ;.rinter :it !'f'j.':cht have teen the Jate r.c'.ll. P.ut the ~oFest e!-h of anv si~n of pollnt:i.0n ~.;.:~s :in the 1~tter nRrt of 1076. perhans,get soTT'e of the reports to,perhAnsJg:i"e the :qrnse arci. taole it just to sho~ ho~- vou knov,the House- ~OP thev ~a~e the air and the po!lutjon that 2oes e~it froro nlaces snch as thRt. T M:_ill table Jt in the Fou~e for ?enera 1 info,.,<>tiC'n. A suonJ.ernentary. C:'Pr.' A T("C'T' • ' . ~ .. _: .... :. . ~ suppJe~entary, the ori?ina1 0uestioner.

T'1:inister sa~rs that the han. minister's experts, the_ people ~·7ho co the monitorin)!, ~·7rul.c! g-o in their auto!"aticalJy. list of inspections. ~ey do not l-'.ave to be inv:i tecl in. ~hey c!o n0t h<tve to r,7ait for thin?s like the rabb:it episot:1e to !:it t;:,e ~ea~lines tef0re they go :in there. Yould the mjnister telJ . the nouse - just as A rrratter of curiositv - :i E ti-~e perrle c·+o co the nl;:mt, jf they ~o ;>nv "'oni_torin'?' on the ashestos !"ire 01't jn c:t. I·Te alr.ravs !·ear so T"nch abo11t - St. !-eor~e 's? Ye!:i. He always hear so IT'uch at-out P·cd e "erte.

Here '"' ""UPPRY: rJ. at ~a y , I t ~: i. n !..- • ~"'R. YEAPY: - 8t. George's, Plat Pay. noes the ministers offi_cja]s also ~onitor the atwospberic con~~tio~s in th~t Rrea? Uecause I fo of 'Ter,.r-Fcund 1 .?nc. I ro r:ot knm·7 i_ f tl:1i s is trne 0 r l"'Ot. Perf-..aps the r"in:i o:ter c:;::~r P.nJ; qh ten 11~ on tr-i c;. 5408

'T'ape 19~J :r~-2 T.·'<'!S chatting to iTle a'hrnJt the SP..T"e th~n!! A.nd T believe one of onr ~el" l·?ent in. -qut I '·~il]_ certainly check trP l!'et:ter out beca.use late1" - anCl I sav late1y,:i.n recePt vPars - T·'e h?ve bee-r orPttv rrucr., you kn0r.-·, -".T·'<'.re of F~at is happei:i.ncc, ljlce occupa.t~onA.1 c-l;_.c::e;:>se, tr.e T"ines and tld.s type of t'f-:ine. St. LaT·rrence. perhans t:oras tre r>ne that pr.ecipitate(l th,e Phole thinf!.

So I th:i.n~· I can .?.ssure the ~~ouse th::Jt )_j).ce Labracor rity, t:'rco ;md this pl.?.ces are monitorefl re~ularly. ~'Te do not wire the hovs i n~t <>o i.r J i t--e a regular inspector and see trin~s as thev are. ror tr.at repc::on it is a prettv rerular thing. Brj_an PoFer :is our- engineer ,,•ho <"oe!" the air n<:frt of it and I t:or:i ll check 1·!1 th Brian and f.et any reports on these. \Jhile I aw on TT'Y feet, Sir, I did have a renort earlier today, a report that there rv-as a major oil snill in the 0uidi ~ 7 i.c:!i Lalre area.

So Pe checl<eC' it 1 ast night and a~cdn thj s U"orning but there r.vas no oil. There Fere supposed to he thousands of P:allons h,1.cl floated out into tl:.e ?Ut .l"ojn? out. 3ut the1.t PaS fCluncl to be entire~y not ccrrect. So if there is any report op_ it it is nnt corn~ct tbett there ~"~-s a vast sp:i 1lap-e. There was some oil around the So I r.-.jlJ ~av~ a full renort on the th:in~ tomorrow. any doubts thClt will solve them. So if anybody has HD. NFJ'T.'Y: Coulcl. I hCl_ve one final suppJ ementary question? 0ne fin<'! 1 snnp:l e~Emte1ry, the orir-inal (1Uestioner.

Fr. ~pe.<1lrer, hecc>.lJSe of the seriousness of the sitnatinn I ,,,oncer jf the !'linister cou1c1 tell tl".e Fouse if' the company, you knot:oT, E'rco, if' thev a] so hpve a proceGnre '·hereby thev rronjtor the ajr, th~ coulrl t}'E' -rjni Ster tel] 11S if the U"inister l=jn(lS ~-t ri fficuJ t, or roes 're have suff~c'ient staff to as~d7n noT,, to all trese hot snots tb.at Pe ,_.?VP. in the Province as !'l result nF the industrial and economic development th<1t has·t;::1lrpn p1ace over t1-·e ye<1rs? 4--_ere ;>reo A n,_,T";...er nf l-_ot sn0t."'. 5409

\n r' . '27, 1?77 '" ~::-:. \ f''l( : ------- {,•hat you h.;:we to lool· for in these areas? I ···ou )cl 1 ii.·;: to hea r t'be minister's C0~"'1"'1ert on t !·a t . I gues $ t~o,ere is not a r.i.n~ste r ··•ho t•oulc! n.r-t tell vou :-.e t·'Clnld lH·e to have S('ll"'e extra staff . .3ut I vrill say tbis ou'!.te ::onest1y, in the pas t two years,! •··ould sav, ·.re ~a ve a~cl. ec three or E~ur of tl:ese environ~ental peoole and o~ course t hey co~e )n ~if:er~nt area~ . gE>t the {·•ate r nollut;on .

"!r.m r-et the a:i.r polJ.ritior. ~nd tl·.is t ;:o e n:: l--el ieve n\ are l.(ee!'>ina pretty •·•el 1 a'-reas t o" it and thev ro t!''7 to J.. rin~ in renorts, 1 th:inL-, <"'Harter1y on all these are;~$ an( pet to ther." t.:rh.en thev can :in f.et ·,·een oth:or thi:1!!s that hanpen . Put ~Psi ca) J v I th'nk ~J e are> c'oin~ p re t tv ~ood and ~·re get POnderful co - ooe rat ion . T ii!'agine :10F - and ! iust s?v t his - th?t ~rcn '·'oulc' hE' :"Onitorine their or.rn ei'!issions and all the rest lik e every borv e lse . but T alTI n0t ou:i te snre of that.

I r.ri_l]. see 1 f T can ~ et a fuJ J. report p<~ rt j. cularlv on thc>.t one...and I t:.inv they rlic' ~et sci!'e kind of C'ln ar-1arrl for safety i.n the place . Anc' ··•e a r e ver·v happy, as t sajd, o r anv nollu t i.on Pas recorr'ed 0ver a l l the ve>ars tht'lt ci1e>y hc>.r been in opera t ion . I ~dll trv to ?et a sar.>ple one c:mc' just sho~·' hot·' thP thing is gratied . 1t is a pretty sc:iel'1t if:!.c t'h:in<" J--11r it is nn'te inte rest i~g ~o~ it 1 5 c'rne. S4i0

April 26, 1977 Tape No. 1944 NM- 1 MR. SPEAKER: I will recognize one additional supplementary on this subject from the hon. member for Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan), then the hon. member for 1.J'indsor-Buchans (}1r. Flight). ~1R. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, am I permitted to ask a two or three part question like the hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary)? MR.. SPEAKER: No • MR.. ~IDRPHY : Put it all in one nart. MR.- SPEAKER: Order, please! The Standing Order - I do not think there is any need for me to read it out - but the Standing Order with resnect to questions, is Standing Order 31 (

a) to (f).· MR. YOUNG: are jealous. You are just getting j ea:lous now that is all. You MR. NO~~: I wonder if the hon. minister would be good enough to get us the following information? One - when was the matter of deformed animals, whether rabbits or whatever, brought ~o the attention of the provincial and/ or federal governments; ;_hey must be in consultation working together) I would assume. And secondly - is there any evidence that whatever the problem might be is injurious to health; I am wonderin~ about those who are working on it.

Does the minister have any idea when we might get some answers on this matter? In so far as health to human beings is concerned ! or whether it is rabbits or some other type of wild game, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. ~inister of Provincial Affairs and Environment. 'MR. • ~1URPHY : Now the only thing I can say to the han. member, Mr. Speaker, is that I ~vill check the information. Perhaps the hon. member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) could tell me when he brought it to my attention first. If it is permissable, Sir, just for the information of the House. ~.

PATTERSON: I think before I brought it to your attention, it had been brought to the attention of the Federal Department of the Environment, and that possibly would have been two nonths. MR • ~TEA.,_~Y : Were the rabbits federal or provincial? 5411.

April 26, 1977 Tape No, 1944 NM- 2 MR. PATIERSON: ~vell the ones that you ~.ranted in the park I do not know, I think they were bilingual. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Windsor-Buchans, ;{R • FLIGHT: ~r.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Mines and Energy. l·lhen the mines at Gull Bridge were closed dmm_ the mining company left and Gull Bridge was a complete~self-sustained town as the minister knows, When they left they left a lot of real estate, there must be, I have seen them myself, eight or ten houses there, hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of real estate, There are various groups which have shown an interest in moving in there and setting up various things, a senior citizens complex is one, would the minister indicate to the House just what the status of those properties is right now?

Just what is happening with regard to disposal of assets in Gull Bridge? }'1R • SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Mines and Energy, MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, the comoany had it all frozen and have on repeated enquiries from me, both before I got into this portfolio and since~ Only about a few weeks ago I enquired again and the companies got all their property, all their equipment, the whole works frozen. MR. SI~ONS: Mr. Knight is still caretaker, is he not? ~. PECKFORD: Oh yes, ~. Knight is still on site.

Furthermore, I just for the information of the han. member, after the problem at Rambler, and the same principles are involved in the two comnanies, the Gull Bridge one and Rambler Mines, Rambler '.fines as a company investigated some of the equipment and the flotation that was operational at Gull Bridge and they have since transferred some of the equipment from Gull Bridge to Rambler and it is that equipment that has succeeded in helping the flotation process get the mercury content dm·m at Rambler.

Some of the equipment at Gull Bridge has been used by the other company, Rambler,in their operation because both companies 5412

April 26, 1977 Tape No. 1944 mf- 3 ~. PECKFORD: are principally owned by the same individual. But all the property is still frozen. MR. FLIGHT: ~. SPEAKER: MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, one supplementary. A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, I am more concerned really with the houses and the real estate there than with the equipment. I am aware of the equipment and that · some has been moved. But the question is is the government involved with the company with regards to - will the government be involved or be aware of the way that that real estate will be disposed of when and if the time comes; ?1R.

PECKFORD : Yes we will. We will be aware of how it is disposed of. I am as concerned as the hon. member is. If I am not mistaken it i~ 1ust out of my district and into yours I think, irito the hom• member for Windsor-Buchans (Mr. Flight) district. MR. FLIGHT: At the present time - MR. PECKFORD: It is in Windsor-Buchans district. 5413

IT'·-1 .,...~e ""'.ouses .::!nc1 <1 l C't of the !"'c>terial, ;-"f"l'l ~-noP, ph en it T.•as there like you say it was a very good town. are fast, you know, deteriorating. T):fr1 they },ave a cur~ ir.,c:; rink t;-;ere? Yes the~e was a curlin~ rin~ anc1 a softball p~tch anrl - MR. RIDEOUT: "'hat is not there nm,r, the curling rink, j_s it? Yes. It Hc>s oui.te a 1i.ttle tm·"Tl. "ost nf t'-:e peopJe Pith t:O.e col'l"parw on that staff of the company, ~ut it is a heautifuJ area and it is unfortu-nate that the companv still sees fit to freeze it.

YoP tre 0ther pni!'!t r>bout it al.J., r.,f,_ich is iust an overvieF observation,is th<-1t there is stiJl 2 fa:ir a!"ount of interest :in that nart; cular .=trea a.s the ~on. '?ent~ elTian 1;-noHs. 1'he provinci?l n:o~rern!"ent ~icl soT"e exrJcration '-mr'- out there, some fieJd vorv for a couple of years. '!11ere have been nn~er0us crl'l"ne_nies t~:Ting either tC' pnsr co~p~nies that ~ave concessions to ~et dn with the joh or to ask tc go i_!' on a joint venture r.7j_th them a-nc! this lrind of thing. 80 troer.e is still. a f<!_ir <.1TT"our.t of interest. :-fR.

FLIGPT: \..J'"lat is the principal comnanv there no~,1 1 Brian' or Fr. "inister? ~'·!ell in that Hhole area vcm are t::tl1dr.9: abcut - :roranc'la is involve(! there tr some de!?ree ::tnc1 Cul] ~rj ~?e themselves \'ell, ,,4-Jo is freezing tre prrnertv? Ts it Irvino? Yes, t;.,?ct is ri?!-t, tl,e pr:ineipl'll o•:'!l_er of lull Is r.ur friend ~'r. Irving. Rnt it is 'rerv unfr.rtnnate. is stHJ a lot of int-erest in the :"'i:1in7- activity i.n tre ATec>. 'T'T,'O , 5414

. ~ priJ ?7 - . ' T.D-2 thett there seer.1s to be some tax p r0visi0ns r.th-ich A.re very lucrc.tive tor·'arrs the m·mer. ~~e han. re~~er for tew:isnorte. "r. Speaker, I:'Y cnest:ion js rl~recrer' to the "inister of Fisheries, e.ncl it has to co Pith the cr:mt:inuiPl! cot"fnsion ai'd . dehate with respect to the lobster fishery. I wonder if the minister could tell the Pause Pl:ether or not re has tC'.11rer: ~n" further ctctjon ':·7 :Lth resnect to ravjn~ the prices 0f lohster increase~ other thRn the telerrar ""1--e hon.

"injster of Fisheries. requestin?.' infnrmat:ion a.s to Fhy they were paving 1_ess- to the :·~erpfoundJand 1oh.ster fishe!""en than tha.t heinP; paid the ''ari t 5T".e 1 ol--ster fi sher'TT'en. I ~ave no~ or at .least I ~o not thin~ there are anv rerlies 1 ~ac~ un]ess they are. in "'Y 0ff:ice ~rit1--out 1'1Y knor.,ledrre. I uncerstand the union is also invoJ,Terl"' in t~:is and they are trying to T'eP"oti;:ote a. nrjce l"'Orn.ent. '<"!' \JHIT'E: /1. suppJ el"'entarv. Vr. Speaker, in some cases the IT'!jrd.ster lono,;rs, 1 underst:and the T")ef!art!l"ent of T'nral ne,telopment has gotten invol,rer!

Mith purchasin? sa]~on. I vonder if the ~jnister couJ~ telJ us '·*'ether ~"T not hi.s ~enc>Tt!"ent t:as considerec the possibilj t:r of T'111TCh?sino 'T'he hon. ''inister of Fish~ries. • m r:;. r ~ _ r>7J7P : 71ouse our intention to jT1.vestj.'!Rte the possjhilitv of JT'avhe gett:inp- ~avhe thPn ~avina so!"e ~ind of an ontion syst~~ invn1ve?. ~ut 5415

A~ril 2 7, 1 0 77 '"' n ('A'-'TEP: union is very ~ctively negoti2tin~ with the co~panie~. So I~~ l:of'inp- thc>.t we ,,~iJ.l he arle tn extract from the cornDanies the be~t cle?.l ross:ible for the fi~l--PT"'P.n. A supTJl e!'1en tary. It i.s a final suppJ.eTr'ent~rv ancl }.t has to clo, ''r. Spe;t!<.er, r,'ith the confusion that Jobster fishennen are finrling the~selves vroncerin .'! ~-Jhat to clo T-dth the.;r lo},sters.

I t-~oncler if the minister cou1d tell u~ Fhet!:-,P.r. or not they should be encour?.'!ed to holci thel!l or just 1et them f!O because they clo not he1ve a verv l0nq Jife s~an as the minister ~news. '-'P. SPE~VE?: The hem. vinister nf "'is>,eries. VI' 'i!. rA 1Yl'FT!: vr. Speal<er, there is n0t too much I can SC~.v on thc>.t.

Certainly I would not Mant to ~ive the i~nression that t~ey should hoJd the lobsters and thP.n mavhe something happen in the futtlr~ that ':,rould he detri.!'1ental to the fisJ,erT"en. :"ut certain.1 '! r;· advice to the!'1 is to str:ih~ out for the l;est price nossihle and to '·'Grl-:- l"'ayhe Pith their union anci hetv7een theyn they might be ahle to force the cot"'pani es t0 pay a 'hetter price. rerta:i .nly I tr1 :ink r.·7e 'hnre rone ahout a.ll ~.,e can at this time. Fe have ~Jirecl the companies.

P~ have reauester . an expJ ;:mat ion as to r.-1hy the differential bet'-'een thP pri.ce being paid ~'aritil".e fj_shennen as opposed to that he-in!! naic1 ~:reufoundland f+sherT!'en. Fe have reU'indeci. the companies th~t thev are o<1era t:i.np: in the Province hy 1 eavp anc! ] i cense of the ,r.-overnfT1E'nts. HU 1·1UTF: Have you chec~ecl t~e r.s. ~ar~ets? T ~e~ your p;.ordon? ·~ ~-J~UTE : Pave you checked t~P r.s. 2arkets?

T 'l.:Pre ~~ker tl'r> :<'ishing Industry Advisorv Board rn chPck the var:ious l"'arkets a~d t0 find 0ot ~-Jha.t is fo:in.9 on there anrl to ?.1 so c!:.ecl: the otrer t~rnvinces tc see ~-+;.ot nrice j s t.,e-j'r..p- p;=tic! fi sl·er-rP!' t~ere for tbe:lr 1 C~sters as "'1"1. 1 • T ,,Ti~ . J. reco:miz'e one Rrlclitional supnlet"'entary on tbis }ine o~ nuestionjnr. 5416

.!1 nriJ. 2 7, 1 t177 ~ape 1945 "r .. c:neal·er, the rrdnister seP.r.s to favonr the opti_onino sy~te!l' Fhich I co not understanc. t Foncer if the r.inister couJd e}a"t:Jorate 0n this? r.rl_, o 5417

.<'~nril 27 ,1Q77 Tane 1?46 AP-1 ~!:P.. ::EARY: 'tvould do the bidding on the lobsters, r,.;ould it :1ot l:e the same comT'lanies that are huvin?- the lobsters noH? r.'l!!lC:: t 1: (? rc:! r:io::;ter ~x!'lain the auctioning svstem for the benefit of ignoramuses like myself. The hon . minister. ~-~ • CARTER: The idea, 'Jr. Speaker, has not been developed vet to any great extent. The idea has been put fonvard hy the mi.ion. !:!.'ley are inclined to thirtk that maybe an ootion system 'tvould provide a better price. ~1R. ~mAR.Y : ~· 1R. CARTER: MR. WHITE: ~- ffi.

CARTER: That is all right in areas of bi~ ponulation,but They feel that maybe through some method of the Every morning. -every morning the market place would be bide' in~ on a certain number of lohsters '1tvhere there {vould be, maybe, a firm price established bv the lobster fishermen and the union and the nerson. bidding nearest that price then t,•ould g;et the chance to buv the lobster. Or if the nrice 'tvas not satisfactory then maybe the lobster could be held over until the market imuroves. :·tR. NEARY : But how will that cr ange Phat is ~?Oing on? MR. CARTER: :·rr.

Speaker, I tvould not t·1ant to get too deeulv involved in that idea because it is very much in the olanning stage or at least in the, just thinking about it. But certainly I think it has possibilities. 'Then, I believe, the lobster fishermen tvould be given a chance to take advantage of the peaks in the market as opposed to now. I think in manv case~,thev are nrettv well in the valleys. Certainly I think the price being caid ' Tetvfounrlland fishe~en tvhich is at the moment.

I believe, more t'lan fiftv cents a oound less than t:,at oaiCI_ other fisherr.ten­ I hooe the companies can exT'lain that because certainlv I am interested in knmving it and I think the fishermen are as rvell. 541.8

Anril 2 7, 19 77 Tane 1946 AH-2 lvfR, SPF.AKER: Fan. member for Terra "Nova folloHeri bv the han. gentleman for Rurgeo-Bay d'Espoir. ~'ffi.. LUSH: ~-<r, S])eaker, I have a question for the rfinister of EdncaJ::icrr.. ,\ fe':v days ago the teachers made a statement to the effect that many of our students Here takin~ courses, particularly mathematics Hhich '"ere not challenging and certainly inappronriately matched to the abilities of the students.

Consequently students were not prepared for future education or for the job market ·' so I am wondering cvhe ther the minister can comment on the substance, the validity or the accuracy of these accusations? '1R. SPE..<\.KER: The han. minister. HR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I had seen the ne~v~paper i tern that carried that

article and it referred to the mathematics programme in the school.~ I think it said that in some cases there is as much as sixty or seventy ner cent of pu])ils in schools doing that lm..rer caliber m;~~.thematics. The fact is, Nr. Speaker, eve have three calibers, or three categories of mathematics in high school. We have the honours programme, the matriculation and the basic mathematics. and the basic mathematics is designed for the lower fifteen per cent or so of the student population. A lot of people feel that you do not have to know quadradic equasions to get a reasonable,good grade eleven.

Now I have checked on the statistics and I found that 6,200 out of 7,700, 6,200 are doing either the matriculation or the honours mathematics. About 1,580 the basic math. So it is around the fifteen per cent that we had projected that would need it that is doin~ that basic math. One of the prohlems, of course,is that oerhans there is the 5419

Tape 1946 AH- 3 'fR . P.OUSE : occasional school ~;•here there is only ten or eleven in grade eleven arid they may have to opt in that school for ei ther one or the other. Sometimes you get some very good students doing the basic ~~thema tics and that is unfortunate . 3ut we a re looking into the matter and tryin~ to monitor and see that hopefully only the lower fifteen per cent all the way throu~h are do ing the basi c math .

The other thing about the caliber of the math is chat a grade - somehodv said it Has a grad e ei~ht standard, •·1e do not think that is so but He do question - there is divided t!"lought on ~,.rh ether ~.,e shoulc ,ave that hasic math at a 1 l . Perhaps since-you can get a ~rade eleven without mathematics, oer haps i t tvould be bette r for us to have husiness mat hematics at that lor.·rer level . . ~·fR . SPF.AKER: r am afraid 5420

I .... -1 '<T'I C::D"C','.VT:'" • l . • ~ .. ·' • the ti~e for the Ouestion Perio~ is un. ~efore calliD~ 0r~ers of the '"1av I r.r:fll •.Jel co!"e ,or: behalf 0f hor:. Me!"l:lers, tn the ,gallery ?'r. :>on "l:'agan, President of the Fec1eration of ''unicipaJ ities and several ~e!"~ers of his executive. I ~Pow ~on. ~e!"hers jotr: ~e in ~elcomin? thPse gentle~en to t~e House of AssernhJy. Pear, hear~ 0T?~E1'S n;;o 'l'FE T'f.Y: ' i':(")n. SOYE HON. ~''E~ETS : Heer, "ec.r! 1o1inutes left. In opp0s~tion to l?st night I ~o not intend to use t~at t-i_!".e.

I only inten0 to spee1~~ for ct fe~·T minutes un] ef;s I !"eve an a!"end!'1en t . ' ,,,., SP~'0"T~: You had a seconder last ni .<:'I-tt. 1·-fr. Sneaker, last He0.nesdav I iZOt "into sot"e of the facts and figures or some of t!->e h]n1o?ic<".1 ::>.snect.s of the fjsberies in this Province ;:md c1iscussec1 the so cc<Jlec'l snr11lus that r-re believe tber~ is tn this Province, or ~.;e are told there is ,and T referred to rr-uch r.f the fisheries statistics that we are presented with as be5ng naper st<'.tistj_cs.

I do not intend to cover th.:>.t ,Q'rounrl but _inst to sav thnt J rave alr.rays hac a ceen heJ ief that ~nch of it is very t"UC~ lil~e puJlin~ <" r~bhit out of a hat, t"at t"anv of the statistics c<n~ rany o: t~.e fi?ures that r-:e ar-e g-iven are .gue~c; •·rorl..r, rnre ;>:uess Fork anc1 rlo ro_ot corr-e ver" clnse to thP. truth :>. t R.1l ;n..,rl Fha tever t.:e rl0 we shouJ~ al~~vs err or thP ~i2e oF safet y hv far. totally since I believe that that has to happen so~et~t"e in the ne~r futur-e. ·~ f~nal r0~nt ~s raiserl out of tl:e ~inister's rery]v or taJ~ 0n this rlel-,ate. 5421.

T~-2 the fish product in tl-d,c; !'t"01Tince. t_re P!:'.S S"fRti!'.P' - C'.Tid J accert r.+•.at r.e states T-TelJ - t'l.?t tFenty cents a pcmnr i.s a P'OOc1 Price to 1-.e p~ic for the amount 0f .... ror!· t1->at you e1.re r:lojng nn t~e prornct. VeJ1 vou indicate0 it r..ras a fa::i_r nrjce ~nd I tJ.,.;nk th;::~t is correct.. I <''.t" chec. 1 ·in~ the Par.sc>rcl here. It ·-ras indicated th?t t'-'entv cents a ?Dune! vas a figure that you stater. V'O S'T'T'Aru."'N: Be that as it may, t•·7 fmty cents 0r thirtv cents, it is i.mrnaterial t0 JT'e.

But the nojnt that I a-r,_ tr.yir~ to l"a~P. here i_s tr.?t we h<tve often loo~~~ at the joint ventutes from our PC'int of view anc I think that Pe shouJ r:! loo~- at the ioint ventures froJT' the companies' participatin~, point of view. PP.cause ! a~ sure that if ~e looked at it from the-ir point of viev tl:ey are gettinr ar. extre~el:" p-oofl deal out of it.

Tl1ey are puttinP.: their vessels across fro!"1 :F:urore. .,.,he'-' are rnakin? one trin C!Cross the ".tlantic and insteac'l of essentiaJ l'r FiJ linCl' up the vessel and returning back over the Atlantic, they are c'lisnosing 0f the fish here and allowin~ 1 as r understan~ it;a seccn~ or a thir~ trip t0 be ~.:ror!-:ecl out of these vessels. So in other Fords, they ~o not h:ove to c1o these nurocers of crossin7-s or the nnl'1ber of fi sl-:jnr: trip.c:.

T.t theref0re saves tl-,.eT" a ?Teat ceal Sh'!Ce thrdr fisr,in~ clor·CTI t:i-re would be less and the cost~ of tr~:~vel, of crossin~ the Atlantjc, the trans-Atlantic crCissin)"s and so on ~-mulil be Jess, as I tmc!erstaDc1 H. .,.,.,e co"'nanies ce_n ol-vi 0nsJ y therefore affor;rl to nay a con~i.r!erable a-ronnt 0f rrooney for r.7 ork 1 1e;n~ rlone on this nr0rlttct :in this Province l-ecause they are ra~inp tbese considereble savings in vessel activity anrl in less cost or Jess e~T'!Pnses t~an t~e tran?·- AtJ~ntic CT0SSin~s. r never ~ee t~erro as ~ein~ Jono-ter~ nrojects o~vicus]~ Pre the !"':Lnjster h::>s ?.'!ree~ tr01t these ar~ net lon~-ten, projects, t:h?.t PossihJ.v th i s r.Pe r..muld be CJ one-shot c'ec>l., 9.1"' r :it pi]_1 ':le ?ssec:s.;>r-1 5422

r>reva11 on the fer'P.ral ;:'n•rern"'-ent 2:r.cl f:injs h it ,:1rrl c.lose off t~e ~eal ri~ht nOP anr try tO loo~ 2t ~t fro~ the point of View 5423

April 26, 1977 Tape No. 1948 ~11'1 - 1 XR. STRACHAl.'1: look at it in a different light, in a different vein and an entirely different channel than from what he has stated previously. I therefore totally support the motion and would like to see most definitely the end to all joint venture schemes such as they are since I feel they remove the initiative and the ability for the peo?le of this Province to try and participate in the inshore fishery, midwater fishery which I believe is the future of this Province. Thank you. SOME HON. ~ERS: Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER ~ DR.

COLLINS): The han. member for Harbour Grace. :1R. YOUNG: Mr. Speaker, I would like to say ·a f e~.; words on this motion concerning joint ventures. I was,you may say , a supporter of the joint ventures that do affect mj district and a few more districts around the East Coast, I suppose : because the olants here are depending on the inshore fishery. The Minister of Fisheries spoke to a dinner meeting at the Board of Trade in Harbour Grace and the Compass of that week said that the joint ventures may get the boot.

Now, Sir, I do not know if they should be called joint ventures or co-operative fishing agreements. ~ow these agreements, Sir, will affect the people of Trinity and Conception Bays. The largest problem experienced by the fish plants in Harbour Grace, Carbonear, Bay de Verde, Rant's Harbour and Port de Grave is a shortage of fish on a year-round basis. This problem, Sir, can only be solved by obtaining a steady supply of fish from offshore sources. In view of the existing regulations this solution seems impossible because licenses to opera~e trawlers were curtailed on August 13th., 1973 by a federal la~.;.

The result, Sir, that existing trawlers cannot suoply sufficient fish to maintain the local plants on a year round basis, where then can we get this guarantee of a supply of fish to keep our plants operating at full ca?acity and our peoole employed? 5424

April 26, 1977 Tape No. 1148 MR. YOUNG: I believe, Sir, that the joint venture, or the co-operative fishing experiment ~ve have is the most effective solution to this problem. Through co-operation with other countries who have the catching capability, expertise and technology, our present seasonal industry can be turned into a very ~rosperous, viable, year-round operation. NM- 2 Fish plant~, Sir, need raw material on a year-round basis and a traditional twelve week season is not enough to-provide a measure of economical security for those communities with a relatively weak economic base.

If these joint ventures prove to be successful ) as I feel they will, Sir, in Harbour Grace , it would mean that fish plants elsewhere could offer full time emnloyment. The Ocean Harvest Fish Plant at Harbour Grace which would be closed during the Fall and Winter months, would remain open creating employment for a large number of men and women who would . oe otherwise unemployed. The town itself, Sir, would benefit greatly on the spin~offs in the increase in activity.

And since many of the towns and communities in the area are having financial problems, a stronger economic base to stabilize employment would increase investments and the necessary ground-work for many positive improvements in our quality of life.

Sir, if joint ventures is a short-term solution I believe it is vital too for our fishermen to take advantage of the knowledge gained from these foreign fleets in the areas of their vast technology in improving fish products and ~robably within three or four vec_rs our Newfoundland industry will have experienced an exciting expansion with fish production, perhaps double over that presently. We as a government, Sir, must )and I am sure will ;move quickly to ungrade and expand the fishing industry 5425

.floril 27. 1077 T~-1 2n~ ~a~e fu11 use o ~ this ne~ technolo~v and s~il!s. T believe, C"l!r ins h ore fis ~ erren as ~ e '' as the fish plant workers, the fish plant ~ir. I ~a~ t~e priviJe~e of visiting one of thnse fish draggerS ~.JhEn She r.•cts in T1arCOUr r.race <?Tid j_t \··as a T'le._?,n i.f ic,emt h' s __ J r. I rl0 not thin~, Sir, t~at ~e as a fOvern~ent can ever affor~ I S.?P th.::tt one in uar.hcur Grace. r~ ·.·-,s A. ,.,qo-ni fi c<tnt rJ ant. Tt r"ClS spot] es~J.v clean. .,.,h.e fish is not seen at j t c:o,..es nut of the ~ater.

It is not subject to the eJeMents of t~e u~ather or rain or sun or ,.rhat thev are use~ to ~~etvfoundland.

It proC-_11ces a perfect product. .Anci as one ,,rent throu~h that ship, Sir, and sa1,~ ,,•\-~ere the f~ st-. ca!'!'le in over the stern of the ho2.t an~ j t ':·7 as nyocessecl aDd •-•hat the-r Fere talrin ~ out of tbe rolrl . of t1--e boat, it r-r?.s a!"azjno- . .,.,hey tel] ~e these crews wor~ on R tr-relve hour shi~t an~ on these fts a result,Sir, o~ th~s - probablv one of the rain thino-s .. or the l:"ain rPClsons of t:he _iojnt ventures not ,Q'ettin!=' criticism frot'l the fisherT"en 's union, and orot:ably the opt'C'$dt'inn hetve ;urnpecl o-n the bandwagon, j s our ~cwerr.l"ent- a 1 ac k <"'f exnJ ai'Iati .<"'n to the people _ of ~: et-:foundlanrl of what joint ventures really mean.

I v0r~ing there and this means a ~reat, ~reRt thin~ to these penp~e because nol-r as it r,:.qs announced, rrnpnse>c last night on the ne~··s - ever :rnne !--e~. rr:l it:- th;ot ten Peelr ."' sta!"ps c··i}J ;...Po D.eerle~ in t"-i!" T rP;tr:l ~it~ interest, Sir, s nme nf the comJ"ents from tbP 5426

F-2 lRst ~eek T ~~s :=;pea~inf vith ~noth~r fish rnerchant an~ he felt th~t probably ~oint ventures nr so~e other arran?ement is the only vav In the fishery il' \'~·-founC! J ~.rc - T feel, \•'P. MtlSt fcr?.et 1::-:i_p- inc~ustries anc so forth and .~0 bP.cl· to the fishincr boats.

Pe need a supply of fish, these plants neerl a supplv of fish, especially the one in Farhour ~rc>.ce and the other plRces I i-'entionerl ~ we need a supplv of fi.sh fr.nTr Novenrer to hDr:il. ':"hese nl c>.nts cannot or0rluce - the prndncinn capacity, I prpsu,...,e trey cc>.n De ferl enougb fish curin~ trap fishin~ an~ so forth in roncent~on ~Rv ancc Trin.ity Bav. Sir, T .spnke of tre possihiJ itv in speC11cincr \•rith ''r. ·~ores not long a?o, ~~. Alec ~oores, the nossi~ilitv of rnunrl fish com:inf in and hein~ frozen in this sense, lH·e they A.re doin? no~·J.

And he said the iva stage on it - tl-:ey only ~ust f-et about probably sixty, sixty-five per cent of the finished l"'rnc-luct. Probably the !"'inister, Sir, cculci explain to us !!'ore f1l1_lv Fhv it Pas onlv 1,~~~ tons of th~ finished product lan~e~ at 0 arhour Crace and also sent over to St. Fary's. Sir, i•ri.th tl-te 2')()-rn.ile ]i!'lit it- r ... ,s also su~g:ester:l thc>.t ~·:e close tl-,e 2arn.il ton BAnks. Yo11 knOT·7 in snea'-jn9" i·:rith the locaJ fishermen that is the breerlinP- frotmc'ls tt-ev sav. :"1Jt T. can re!l'e!"'ber, I think it "..?as last yec.u - rrohabl.y t!"le ron.

":iPister of rransportation ar..d Communications can re!"ernber; ~-rhen 1-re , .. rere on that inshore f-ishery - I thinl<- it Pas UT1ani,...,ously passet:l in this Pnuse nf •\ssel"hly tr.at we r.rouJ d reCluest the fec'eral. l"nvern1"'ent tn clnse the :-Tar."i J ton "'?nks ar1c and it must he cauprt. JF we c'o not catch it, Trsfr w~ll ~ive it to T FeeJ, C:::fr, :if 011 r inshore re0.,..]e, r,,.,. t~e joint ventures, t-hnt 5427

April 26, 1977 Tape No. 1950 NH - 1 MR. YOUNG: it is almost just as important to have these people to work as the fishermen to work. No~v- probably, Sir, in closing if I would quote from "fr. Alex ~oores' piece in The Telegram recently, and he miebt have summed it all up and I do not like to be probably blaming every~hing on the Opposition but he says, Sir, "The people have to develop a sense of pride in industry which was neglected for twenty lost years." Now I do congratulate, Sir, the Minister of Fisheries for the keen interest he has taken in the fishery.

I think, Sir, we should encourage the inshore fishermen~ I know I am very greatful for the part he has played in providing a community stage in the community of Upper Island Cove. I am sure there is about, I would say there is about twelve fishermen crews there and.it employs around- well at least forty or forty-five people are getting a living out of it.

And once again, Sir, I would like to say that I do support joint ventures or some other name, and·_ probably in the Buqget we may have a - I would like to see a more detailed fishing policy whereby these plants that I mentioned in my opening remarks would find a ~upply of fish on a year­ round basis. Thank you. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, just a few words ~avbe on this resolution.

I think it is an obligation on the part of all members who are in this House of Assembly representing fishing districts to at least have a fe~v words to say on this resolution. The resolution as put forward by the hon, gentleman from LaPoile (~~. Neary) is asking for a select committ .ee to look into and enquire into the proposals with respect to joint ventures and 5428

April 26, 1977 Tape No, 1950 ~- 2 "1R. :fORGAN: to examine their implications and the facts with respect to the fishery of the Province. ~1r.

Speaker, there is no question about it that since the 200 mile limit came into being in January, 1977, that that very important historic event is going to have a very drastic effect on our fisheries and hopefully to the benefit of our Province by improving the fisheries, There are a number of concerns that bother me as a member who re?resents a fishing district, in fact a district that depends almost entirely on the fisheries, And ~•hen I heard the Premier and the Minister of Fisheries, my colleague, talk about joint ventures and the foreigners catching fish off our Coast, particularly along the Hamilton Banks, I indeed was very concerned and that concern was relayed to me many times through the inshore fishermen in the Bonavista area,in particular;which is a large town of approximately 5,000 people and all of them in the area depend on the fishery, There is a fish plant there operated by the Bonavista Cold Storage people, but it is owned by the Lake group and:of course,the fishermen there are mainly inshore fishermen and mid-shore fishermen, the longliners.

When I heard talk about the joint ventures)not knowing the full details of what it meant and what the possible, repercussions could be to the fishery 7 I was very concerned, And in fact today I have some reservations on these joint ventures but these reservations are somewhat squashed based on the fact that my colleague, the Minister of Fisheries,and indeed the Premier, has indicated time and time again in this House,and outside the House)that this will be a one-shot venture, It will not be a continuing thing until the ramifications}i£ you wish 7 are fully analyzed and scrutinized by the De?artment of Fisheries and by this administration to determine whether or not we should ?roceed further with any kind of ventures involving the foreigners catching and landing their catch here to be orocessed on the Islar.d, or in the 5429

April 26, 1977 Tape No. 1950 NH- 3 MR. ~ORGAN: Province. If this- qualification was not there I do not think today I would be supporting the joint ventures, Only two years ago in this hon, House of Assembly as a private member I put forward a resolution at that time calling for the abando~~ent of the fishing on the Hamilton Banks during the spawning season, January, February and !1arch.

I put forward the argument with very strong convictions because the old fishepnen that I grew up with,irt fact, my father being a fisherman in Flat Islands, Bonavista Bay, and the fishermen I now associate with in Bonavista, in the Bonavista South district, MR. SMALLWOOD: I did not know until this moment that the hon. minister is one of that famous Flat Islands Morgan family, a very great family. MR.

MORGAN: The fishermen there, of course)they were primarily Labrador fishermen, they owned schooners, my uncle and dad owned schooners for years and used to go to the Labrador, but . even then - then and even now I should say - the old 5430

'T'c>pe 1~51 I~-1 fisherr.>en I ta1k-ecl to i.n ~- oraviE'ta South clist!"ict, they are al•.,avs coT'cerner. aPd h::lve been concerned Hith the fj,sr1ng a1onrr the ~nrthern r?rt of the ~?ters in th~, I think they call it the 3J il.rea- 2Y-3~' areil. :in H:.:.TAF's desi.znations -but i.t ::f:o the Rc>.l"'i!to!'. Banks,anc they sav that tt,e r-'arnilton ~.;mks js a spm·'T'tinf P"rnunc for the codfish. Anrl if the olrl l!'orl ·or ('rrl "'~ c:atwt,t aut there i.n .£>"reat quantity H ~ s r!oin? to effect the inshore roiqratiC'>T'., the rnipration to the inshore every season thRt fhe inshore fis~erv counts on so much.

In f?.ct thev renenrl or. it. Pithcut th~t ~i"rati. on e'rery Srr.ing •·ritr the cap] iP. spaFT"ing season ;v-hen the codfi.s" co!"e tC1 t1--e shore, ~tthout that season, without that migration, the inshore fis~erv alon~ the Northeast and t~e fast roast) in fact,all ~he wav from the Notre name BRy area alon? to Trinity Bay as far as ronception RAy out to !3aie Uerte, Fithout that !!'i .c::rat:ion there ''ould be no inshore f:ishery. T~'Then I hP.arc! ahout the f0rej gr.ers ?njn~ tn ~e alJ o~·7ecl to catc"' fi.sh on t!:e t.1 a1!'il tnn nanlr..s area, inclee(l I vas verv cor.cernec.

But the fact is that the 2nn-~ile ljmit has now been e~tab]~she~ ~nd there is .e>:oinf' to ~e a snrp] us of fi.sh out off our coRst. I thin!-: tC1 auote these figures t}1at I th:inlr are co'l:"re~t, Rfter the 200-!"iJ.e J jl"it has nm•' been, ,,·ell ~·'as declarer. i.n .T~_ nuary, as a. result of th?...t tht'("'U?-'h the 1 i,censp rein~ issued to forei f11 n;:otions, that the f0rej rn nat:i.ons can catch o>'f nur coast, Mithir the 2'10-!"i] e lil"it, can catch a total of 542,000 metric tons nf cor.

For a total nf all the species. '~~ore ~nowlerlgeahle collea~ue here tells ~e tbat is ? total of all s~ecies. ~J0~·· that is •,rhe>re rana.cl? -9.S P country is noT,r p-ivinj:( 1 i ce-r.ses t0 tresf"'. foreir-n countries.

"Rp_fore T for~et thr>.t, I th in 1- it j s vPrv ir.nort? .n t in the futnrl?. th2.t T,.~-,.,n T.TP. i ssne trese 1 i..censes 1 r.;hether they l:e to the Cet'TI'ans nr to the Pn~sians o-r the Po] es or n0 rn;:~tter vh0 it l"av he, thAt T.re shoulr sti.r-nl.::>te - anc-1 ! hA.ve "een t?.JL!.np a},ot!t th:is T!';:~.in.l : r •··ith l"Y iT'_,rn1,_,re..,el"!t in tTA!"!ST'\Ort.<>tj<"'n ln0~in~ ~t thP p0rt 0F ~t. Joh~'s ~nd othPr rorts :in our Prrvince- 5431.

IB-2 ~1F-. t-~OP.GAN: I thinlr that •.ve shonJd as a conntrv, CCI:nc.r1e, shmld T'1?..1.-e i.r CC"T"r-uJ sorv ~ ~C~n~atorv, that ~efore anv ljcpnse is issupr1 t0 a f0re~~n natjnn, to a foref.gn crmntry to f:i:::h •,:it!:lif'_ nur 2r1J-ri.le 1 irnit, th;:>_t eac-h and e'Te>.ry vessel concerner1 T"USt C0T"~ into nort,in ~;:>na~a's parts- in our case St. John's Fil] l:e a fi_ne ex.?mnle - _cor1e in to obtain the:ir. )icense and not the procedure that is nnw being follo~e~. The situation noT,' is that one vesseJ can come into nort licenses at one tirn.e. And that should be changed.

It '•TCUJc not <m]y -c,oost the ports, it Ponlc mean more activity in the l"'Ort nf <::t. ,-,..,, . ., '.:: for ex?.1"1nle) but it r,.1ould also .P;i,re the fisheries insDPctors more of a chance and a better ol_)portun:i ty to carrv n'lt a more adequate surveillance. 'T'hey cnulcl ~o aboard the ships and they conl~ chec1'-. on the fi_ shi.n~ ~ear)anc1 check on the size of the T'1esh of tre fjshin~ ?e.?

r) etc., the t'Tnes cf fishin~ c:ear, and that CC"t!] c1 be all checke~ out r.•j t" ea.c" ano everv in0ivj~ual vesseJ CC"T"i.n? iDto port and before t~ev are ~iven a ! icensg, or :i.ssned a license c'"'ecJ~_ecl. nut accorc'lin?lv and a-pproved.

Now that suggestion or idea has been di scussecl ~·!i th mv colleaf<ue, the "ir.ister of T'isheries and, in fact, has been T"!ent:ioned to the fer'ler.1l min :i ster, the ~·inister 0E Trarc;-rort-, the hnn. 0tto t<m ;:r ~,-.ho -.;-!'j 11 be tal kin?" about port clevelo-pT"en t ;md nort activity. .".no Palif3x,! under.standJhas been promot5nr t~e sa~e i~ea because the rort activitv has heen do~•rn. sn1,stantia1Jv in tbe tT·TO nnrts, in r:>~rticuL~r in t~e r:';:~st coast of our cr.n!'.trv rurinP: t"e p?.!O't tT.·o or t"'ree yea.rs ~ncl pe fPel this coul~ boost t~e oorts. ] i c en s P. s to t h e 5432 3ut n0" '!P :issue these

April 27, 1977 Tape No. 1952 NM- 1 MR. MORGAN: foreign countries and they are going fish out there in the 200 mile limit. Now it is the obligation of the Country of Canada to set the total allowable catch. In other words - the difference between the sustainable yield and a total allowable catch I ~tP-~~ is not much difference. It is basically the same. The total allowable catch should be connected with the maximum sustainable yield. MR.. STRACRA~ : - sustainable yield. VfP_. :~ORC:i\1': The sustainable yield will - MR. STRAC~~: (Inaudible) fishery and then come to - MR.

MORGAN: In other words the total allowable catch linked into it will provide a preservation of our stocks. That is what I am getting at. Now the 1977 total allowable -catch as pointed out a number of times by my colleague, the Minister of Fisheries, is this year 160,000 metric tons of cod, cod being the prime species for our i~shore fishery,and we can catch this year as a country 67,000 metric tons.

Now the big question that is on the minds of all the fishermen in Bonavista Bay that I talked to, "Okay so you got a total allowable catch of 160,000 metric tons, how much can we catch?" The fishermen are talking, saying this. "Row much can r.ve catch?" ~.Jell last year the total catch for the inshore . I and midshore fishery, the hon. gentleman, the ~finister of Fisheries can correct me, was a little more than 50,000 metric tons, inshore, midshore, 700,0QO,JOO pounds.

So we have an obligation, I said so at meetings in Bonavista with the hon. the minister, my colleague in presence, that I had no hesitation in saying that our big obligation as a government in this Province today , is not to get the foreigners in here to catch the fish, it is to lay immediate emphasis by allocation and a proper development of our catching ability. The catching ability has got to be 5433

April 27, 1977 Tape No, 1952 NH - 2 MR. MORGAN: increased and if we can reach the point of 52,000 metric tons last year, if we can get up to around 65,000, 75,000 metric tons in five years and hopefully within a ten year ~eriod up around 100,000 metric tons we will have most of the seasonal plants around the Province operating most of the year round, Practically all year-round some of them; which are now only seasonal.

And that is the immediate aim and I am sure that what I am saying today is the view of my colleague, the ~inister of Fisheries, But in the meantime, because that i-s not going to hapuen overnight, we ·cannot get all this catching ability overnight_, so in the meantime what do ~ve do? What my colleague has done and what we are doing as a government now1 is gain~ out to the West Germans and making a deal of 6,000 metric tons, a . small amount compared to the total allowable catch, but we are saying to them, Okay, let us give it a try, let us give it on an experimental basis.

Now we are not saying to them, Come in now and you are there for ten years time you are still here. If he did that, if this government did that I would be strongly opposed to it.

But we are doing it only on the basis it is an exPerimental venture)and only after the total ramifications are assessed and scrutinized and checked out by this - administration will we even consider going ahead with any further joint ventures as they are so known as now, joint ventures, The surprising point about all the fisheries in our Province is that we have a processing ability, and I am sure the hon. gentleman from down in Fortune Bay (Nr.

J, \Hnsor), being a man involved in the fisheries in the processing end, will agree 1vith me that the surprising part about the fisheries in our Province today is that we have the ability and the capability to process 1.2 billion oounds of fish. And our processing activity we presently have, the ability and the capability is 5434

April 27,1977 Tane 1953 P..R-1 HR. \fQRGA~ : and many other plants around the coast like Valleyfield and the Hesleyville area and down around the hon . .?,entlemen 1 s ulant down in Gaultois, the operation dor·m there. These are seasonal operations an0. that is the surorising oart, iust a little rn.ore than thirty oer cent of our canabilitv to ryrocess fish is being utilized. And as the Premier has often said, Look ~:.rhat it woulrl. mean in jobs in this Province if He could get all these plants operating all year round, 100 per cent. It \•70uld mean many more jobs.

But ag<'!3.!1 I sincerely hope that c.;e cvill not have to go all the ".vay on joint ventures and in five or ten years time,,.;hen I am st:ill relatively onlv man a~d many of the fishermen todav in Bonavista P.ay - Hhich I am very proud to note .by the 1;.ray, are yormg fishermen.

I have had more enquiries this year as a member for a fishing district from young fishermen rooking for loans from the loan ~oard, looking for help to get involved in the fisherv­ went out and boug~t longliners this year, it is fantastic,it is really enticing, it is really - well it is invigorating to me as the member for tl-te district to see all these young men getting so enthused ~vith the fishery.

And some of them>for examnle_ have even l~ft some of the jobs r,7here thev >-TOrl<ed in somf' season as carpenters and these things ann have gone back to live in Bonavista and are going; to get invol,;ed in t!:e fisherv, and they are going to stick with the fishery. They see a future. Last year in Bonavista I would say that there 1-1ere fishermen down there who earned wages more than anv member of this Rouse of Assembly with the exception of a minister maybe.

The minister 1 s salary combined with- as a member 1 s salary manv fis'1errnen in mv district last year earned more mone'') ancl God bless t:-.em for it because it is ahout time they clin, hecause they .:1 h;ays had the sore end of the stick, the fishermen, and never made muc:,. money, ;ust barely enou~h to .survive on. 5435

April 27,1977 Tape AE-2 3ut novr thev have a future because they see the tFo hundred mile limit and the hones for the accuTT'nlation of the stocks and they can see a bright future. But for a while there \vas a bit of a dark cloud carne over Hhen the ::inister of Fisheries announced the joint ventures~ I must say there Has in Bonavista The minister ~·lent down cvith me to the meeting and I kno~·l tl;.at he thought as well there Has a black cloud over them all.

Thev were not clearly understanding what .i oint ventures r,rere and cvhat it meant to the cod s..tocks along the P.:amilton Banks) in particular, ~vhich is so im~ortant to them and the inshore fishery. P.ut vrhen it c..ras explained. by the minister at that meeting that - in fact the minister got a rousing ovation from the fishermen. ~v'hen they could understand what he was talking about thev ro1ent along Hith it. I do not want to be rubbing in and comnlimenting the ~inister of Fisheries that makes jt sound like a partisan thing. ~ut I think there is not