Volume XL Wednesday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF NEWFOUNDLAND Second Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansard} Speaker; Honourable Patrick McNicholas Number 32 14 May 1986

The House met at 3:00 p.m. MR. SPEAKER·(McNicholas): Order, please! Before calling for Statements by Ministers, there is just one brief announcement I would like to make. Over the weekend I read through last week's Hansards because I made a ruling about ten days ago that concerns me because I believe I was wrong. I might add that no one approached me directly or indirectly in this matter, and I did not seek anyone's advice. - The ruling was in connection with comments made by the bon. the President of the Council.

At the time, I felt he had imputed unworthy motives when he said the intention of two bon. members was to discredit the goverrunent. On reflection, this surely must be one of the aims of the Opposition.' So I just want to correct what I feel was an error on my part. Statements by Ministers MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the President of the Council. MR. BARRY: That was the time you got spi tey, was it not? MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I never get spitey. A marvellous ruling, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have a statement to make.

The subject is Recent Negotiation Of Subsequent Terms Of L1866 May 14, 1986 Vol XL Grand Banks Exploration Agreements 194, 196, 197, 198, 200 (Mobil) And Exploration Agreement 208 (Petro- Canada). It is my pleasure to bring to the attention of the House, the overall significance of the recently negotiated second terms of the six exploration agreements on the Grand Banks.

The . initial terms of the five exploration agreements with Mobil.and one with Petro-Canada expired at the end of March, and the companies entered into negotiations with the Canada-Newfoundland Offshore Petroleum Board to extend their rights for a second term. I might state, Mr. Speaker, that in accordance with the arrangement under the Atlantic Accord and the Constitution of the Board, the Chairman of the Board was in contact with both orders of goverrunent with respect to this.

The companies have retained the rights to almost half a million hectares and have already paid rentals in excess of $1.1 million for the first year of the ''successor'" terms. Under the conditions of the agreements, the companies are required to pay a rental of $2.50 per hectare during the first year - as I say, we have received the first payment - $5.00 per hectares for the second year; and $7.50 for each of the third and fourth years. These amounts are to be paid in advance each year and the companies will be reimbursed up to SO per cent of those payments based upon allowable expenditures.

If these rights are held to their full four year terms, then the minimum amount of rentals that will accrue to the Province will amount to approximately $5 million. It is · possible that rental payments No. 32 R1866

could be higher, Kr. Speaker, but they shall not, in totality, exceed $10.3 million. I wish to emphasize to this House that these revenues are the first oil related revenues of any substance from the offshore area to be paid to this Province as a result of the Atlantic Accord, and were able to be garnered by the Province as a result of the Accord and as a result of the fact that the Province of Newfoundland was recognized as having the right to recover provincial type revenues, and this is the first of the provincial type revenues to accrue to the Province.

Now, although these rental payments represent a significant amount of revenue and the beginning of such a revenue stream, my colleagues and I are hopeful that the drilling requirements stemming from these agreements will provide substantially more benefit to the provincial economy. If the companies exercise all their options and meet their drilling requirements, then eight wells will be drilled by Mobil and two by Petro-Canada by the year 1990.

Ten wells, say at an average cost of $35 million per well would result in an expenditure of some $350 million and this would provide impetus in maintaining an acceptable level of exploratory activity over the next four years. Presently the Newfoundland 'capture rate' on exploration activity is in the order of about 15 per cent. On this basis, it is estimated that $50 million will accrue directly to the Newfoundland economy as a result of these expenditures. In terms of employment, these expenditure levels represent an estimated 780 person years of employment for Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

Ll867 Kay 14, 1986 Vol XL Choosing not to fully exercise the options would result in the drilling of fewer wells which would, of course, result in fewer overall benefits. The companies have until 1988 under four of the agreements and 1989 under the other two to either spud initial wells, post $5 million bonds per well or relinquish the land under the applicable exploration agreements.. With the exception of any land associated with significant discoveries, all lands will have reverted to the Crown by 1990, at which time it may be re-offered to the industry and the cycle would begin again.

The potential benefits that will accrue to the Province, as a result of the exploration agreements that I have discussed today, are a result of provisions embedded in the historic Atlantic Accord, struck between this Government and the Government of Canada. Heightened co-operation between the two levels of government, as a result of the Accord, · has enabled the new board to conclude these agreements with the oil industry to the mutual benefit of all concerned. I am also encouraged by the fact that the industry continues to regard highly the overall prospectivity of the Newfoundland offshore area.

This is amply manifested in that they are continuing to commit to meaningful work programmes despite depressed oil prices and certain cutbacks in exploratory expenditures in other areas. I might also state, Kr. Speaker, that there are a couple of other comments I would like to make which were not included in my forrmal statement. When this was announced by the board on Friday, one of the media, and I believe it was CBC where one would extiec t to No. 32 Rl867

see a comment such as this late in the news, said that the highlight of the newscast was the fact that Mobil had not taken up all its acreage and it had relinquished some of its acreage, as if this :· was a negative aspect. But, Mr. Speaker, this, too, is a positive aspect, giving up the acreage. It is standard practice when there is a renewal, and it is the basis upon which they received their licences in the first place, and it makes that acreage in prospective areas available for calls in the next order of tenders.

It is a policy of this government and has been for a long period of time, that acreage and exploration areas such as this, large areas, should not be tied up by one or two companies and this is, again, reflective of the policy of the provincial government. I would like to indicate as well, Mr. Speaker, to underline it once again, that these are the first revenues of any substance that we have received from the offshore and this is the beginning of a revenue stream that I hope will increase dramatically as the years go on for the betterment of all Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

I would like to point out as well, Mr. Speaker, that once again this indicates, if you reflect upon this, the prospectivity of the area off the Grand Banks of Newfoundland. There is obviously a downturn in the oil industry, yet we have six exploration agreements renewed, with substantial commitments made with respect to them. I could indicate, as well, Mr.

Speaker, that in the years to come, next year and the year after, other exploration agreements will come L1868 May 14, 1986 Vol XL up for renewal so that we can expect similar treatment with respect to that, similar revenues being paid to the Prov~nce of Newfoundland, and further commitment with respect to the drilling of expl.oration wells.

I would also like to relate that to a statement I made, either in response to a question in this House during this session or to the press, that related to a statement made by our friends at the Board of Trade and the local supply industry itself when I said they had somewhat overstated the position when they painted an exceptionally gloomy picture with respect to exploration.

As I said at the time, I can understand them being concerned, everybody is concerned when there is a downturn in any industry, but I think that this statement today indicates that they did, in fact, overstate the situation, that Newfoundland is the place for the offshore exploration on the Eastern Seaboard of North America, and that we can look forward, in the future, to a lot of increasing activity over the years, and we will .see, as we have seen in this statement, that the benefit will derive to the people of Newfoundland and Labrador as a result of the provisions of the Atlantic Accord. Finally, Mr.

Speaker, because this is the first announcement of any substance that I have made with respect to a decision made by the Canada/Newfoundland Offshore Petroleum Board, I do not think I should make this statement without noting the co-operation of the Board itself, and particularly its Chairman, Mr. Ted Baugh, in negotiating these agreements. Obviously the matter of revenues is a matter of provincial No. 32 R1868 -- ~ ·

jurisdiction under the Atlantic Accord, and the matter of the drilling of the wells is coincidental jurisdiction of the federal and provincial government. The first effort by the board, · I think, has been very successful. They have conferred with us at all times. Their decision reflects the policies of the provincial government and they have been very successful in bringing about what I consider to be a very beneficial result, as I say, the first indication of revenues to flow from the Canada/Newfoundland Atlantic Accord. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I think that this can be summed up that the elephant has laboured mightily and brought forth a mouse . Look at the figures and look at what the minister is doing. He mentions the concerns of the business community of this Province. Well, Mr. Speaker, no wonder they have concerns when we get this type of misleading information supplied.

We have an indication here, a prediction, that we can expect ten wells over four years, two and a half wells a year, much, much less than the industry has been expecting, much, much less than they have experienced over the last four or five years.

For the minister to stand up here and start setting that forth as something that is to be positive, to be viewed as encouraging by the L1869 May 14, 1986 Vol XL Newfoundland business community, no wonder we have business people in this · Province making investments and going down the tubes when they rely on the minister's statements, when they rely on the Premier's statements. The problem is the minister is not giving accurate forecasts, he is not giving proper forecasts to let the business community plan.

When the minister stands up and says that we should jump up and down and clap and cheer because the Province is going to receive in the area of from $5 to $10 million in rentals over the next four years, I say to the minister chicken feed! Peanuts! Mr. Speaker, it is not this sort of announcement that is going to fulfill the expectations created by members opposite.

What this House is waiting for, what the people of this Province are waiting for, what the business community is waiting for is a statement by the minister, by the Premier, by members opposite ·that Hibernia is going to start and going to start this year. It should start, and the minister should see that the federal government gets off its duff and starts seeing that development proceed. If that is all the minister can bring back after his discussions in Ottawa, Mr. Speaker MR. REID: You are afraid it will start . MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: No, no.

Everybody in this House wants it to start, everybody in the Province wants it to start, and we want it to start now. No. 32 R1869

·soME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: :· Mr. Speaker, when we see this type of propaganda exercise, seeking to try and put the best face on a sad and dismal performance, to try and play up chicken feed rentals and a · severe cutback in exploration activity, trying to say that that is something good for this Province ....: MR. MATTHEWS: A deal like you got for the widows. MR. BARRY: I am concerned, Mr. Speaker, that the minister is not getting results in Ottawa. MR. TOBIN: What is going on in Nova Scotia? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: That is going to be the test, Mr.

Speaker, of the Atlantic Accord. By the way, where is the Atlantic Accord? Where the hell is the Atlantic Accord? We have been waiting for it now since February. We had a special session in February, they brought it in, then decided they had better cut their losses and get out of the House as quickly as they could. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BARRY: We have been back in the House now for several months and there is no sign of the Atlantic Accord.

I woulii like to ask the minister to Ll870 Kay 14, 1986 Vol XL stand in his place after I sit down and tell us when the Atlantic Accord will be cotning forward on the Order Paper. When can we get down to scrutinizing that? When are we going to get a decision on Hibernia? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Before recognizing the hon. the President of the Council I would like to welcome to the Gallery Mr. David Dingwall, the member of Parliament for Cape Breton - East Richmond. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Since I was in vi ted, Kr.

Speaker, I very timidly refer the hon. gentleman to Order 13, Bill No. 1. It is on the Order Paper today. And I also very timidly respond to the hon. gentleman when he talks about chicken feed and his aegis, Kr. Speaker, they had no revenues at all except, I am told, one or two payments of $1,000. Oral Questions MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, in light of the fact that we had Mr. Joe Clark No. 32 R1870

indicating that - MR. PATTERSON: Your buddy, 'Joe; the fellow you supported for leader. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, I have high respect for Mr. Clark, and I would recommend to members opposite that they keep a high respect for him as well. He is a man who is going to be around for a while in federal politics, longer than some members of the .members opposite will be provincially, and longer than the current Prime Minister will, judging by his performance. Now, Mr. SR~~er. I would like_to- SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

My friends on the left side are continually interrupting and I do not · have to just continually ask for order. So I would ask them just to please keep quiet. The bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: I do not think we are going to have to await the resignation of Mr. Joe Clark, Hr. Speaker, unlike some of those further to the right whom members opposite would support and whose policies they adopt every day in this Province. MR. TOBIN: Is this Question Period, Hr. Speaker? MR. MATTHEWS: Ll871 Kay 14, 1986 Vol XL Flick him out, Mr. Speaker. PREMIER PECKFORD: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: A point of order, the bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: I do not know what the Leader of the Opposition is up to here. Is this Question Period? If it is, then would the Leader of the Opposition please pose a question. He is up there debating whether Mr. Clark is going to stay or leave and it does not make much difference to me, and I do not think it is a question which comes under the jurisdiction of this government, so I would like the bon. the Leader of the Opposition to get on with a question. MR. BARRY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: To that point of order, the bon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: I stood up to put a question and members opposite interrupted. PREMIER PECKFORD: Two wrongs do not make a right. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: Two 'Brians' do not make a right either. SOME HOH. MEMBERS: Hear, bear! MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I would ask . the bon. the Leader of the No. 32 Rl871

Opposition to pose his question. MR. BARRY: In light of the fact that that excellent minister, one of the few good ministers in Ottawa, Mr. Joe Clark, has indicated that · there has as yet been no decision taken by the Prime Minister with respect to the involvement of the Province MR. SIMMS: We will be ·here forever on this side as long as you are around. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. BARRY: In light of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that Mr.

Clark has indicated there has as yet been no decision taken by the Canadian Prime Minister with respect to provincial participation in the free trade negotiations, how is it that the Premier could get up in this House and say that he is satisfied with the provision for provincial input? Has he once again given a blank cheque to Mr. Mulroney? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Premier . PREMIER PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, there is a meeting as a matter of fact tomorrow with the continuing federal/provincial committee that has been struck.

There will be members from our Intergovernmental Affairs Department in Ottawa tomorrow, meeting with Mr. Reisman and other members of the federal negotiating team for our ongoing input into the free trade agenda and debate and negotiations. There was also communication between the Prime Minister and all the premiers in the last two weeks and that is continuing over the next few Ll872 May 14, 1986 Vol XL weeks.

So things are moving along very well on that score and we are hopeful that the communications between the federal government and all the provinces will continue as it has continued in the past, that this .. continuing committee will continue to meet representing all the provinces and the federal government with Mr. Reisman and some of his staff. And as I said, the Prime Minister has been in touch with us in the last couple of weeks and will be getting in touch with us as soon as he gets back tomorrow from overseas.

There is an ongoing, cooperative approach between all the premiers and the Prime Minister and, secondarily, between the ministers of trade and the Minister of External Affairs (Mr. Clark) and the respective provincial ministers and, thirdly, between the various people within the governments of all the provinces with Mr. Reisman at the federal level. So these cooperations and linkages are going on and I am very hopeful and positive about the cooperation that is going to continue to be there between the federal government and the provinces. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition.

MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker, does the Premier not remember that he did not talk about being hopeful as to what the end result was going to be, but stated in this House that he was satisfied with the arrangement for provincial input? Was this more political posturing, as we have seen with respect to the Newfoundland Railway, or is it in No. 32 R1872

fact Mr. Mulroney requ1r1ng the Premier of this Province again give a blank cheque? Premier did not deal with question. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECI<FORD: - that once ·The that There is a committee established already, and that is what I referred to a number of weeks ago, which is meeting almost weekly. Representatives of all the provinces, and representatives of the federal government, headed by Mr. Reisman, are meeting again tomorrow morning. There · is ongoing talks between the Prime Minister and the ten premiers.

I cannot put it any clearer to the they are going to take the decisions even though it may be in areas of provincial jurisdiction? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: No, Mr . Speaker. I talked to Mr. Getty no more than an hour and a half ago, as a matter of fact. I do not know what he said in the press. I talked to every premier in .Canada, as a matter of fact, about an hour ago. MR. CALLAN: Are you going to hire him too? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Leader of the Opposition.

There PREMIER PECI<FORD: are ongoing talks based upon If he can help, yes, he will be proposals that have been put hired. forward by the provinces and proposals that have been put forward by the federal government to ensure complete cooperation of the provinces and the federal government in the ongoing talks once they begin. No problem. MR. BARRY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. BARRY: Then, Mr. Speaker, is the Premier aware of the statement by Canada's deputy chief negotiator in these free trade talks, Mr.

Gordon Ritchie, when he says that he can take negotiating instructions from only one source, the federal government? And is this not the problem that Mr. Don Getty, the Premier of Alberta, was referring to a week ago, that in fact the Government of Canada is saying Ll873 May 14, 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! PREMIER PECI<FORD: But I can give one more assurance to the bon. member, we will not be hiring him - that is one assurance I can firmly give - MR. TULK: He is a Liberal, right, 'Brian'. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

PREMIER PECKFORD: - not even for maintenance on the Come By Chance refinery. Mr. Speaker, obviously there is going to be a process for provincial input into the talks ongoing, from the day they start and before they start, as there is now. There is inpu t right now to Mr. Reisman from all of the provinces, and there will be input No. 32 R1873

on the higher levels than that as we proceed. Then one group, namely, the·federal government, is going to make a decision based upon input and consultation with the provinces of what they are going to tell .their negotiators next. So that is where our input comes. You cannot have all ten provinces with the federal government telling the negotiating team to go this way, that way, and so on and so on. One group is going to tell the negotiating team, but that group first of all will be after meeting with all of the provinces and getting their input in consultation on a whole range of issues.

And where a province is involved, obviously, directly in the trade negotiations, there will be input guaranteed so that the provinces are protected in areas of their own jurisdiction. It is very simple. MR. BARRY: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary. MR. BARRY: I wonder if the Premier would indicate to us whether the universe is unfolding as he thought it would and as he hoped it would? Is he now seeing the federal government promoting the community of communities' that the Premier referred to as his notion of how Canada should operate?

Is he of the opinion that the image of Canada promoted by the current Prime Minister is similar to that which the Premier supported as promoted by Mr. Rene Levesque? Are wenot, in fact, seeing an even greater emphasis upon the unitary state and centralized federal decision-making in the free trade negotiations than we ever saw L1874 Kay 14, 1986 Vol XL under · the previous Liberal administration? KR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: ., Mr.

Speaker, unfortunately for the Leader of the Opposition, we are seeing a much different, as everybody in Canada knows, the federal government now than we saw when the Liberals were in power - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Ord~r. please! PREMIER PECXFORD: - and we were not consul ted on a thing. There would be no continuing committee meeting with the chief negotiator tomorrow if Kr. Trudeau were in power.

He would be off doing it himself, with a few of his senior bureaucrats when he has now got salted away into the Senate, down to the United States doing their own thing, and let us know two or three months later. We already have had, in the last four or five months, I do not know how many meetings, tens and tens of meetings on just getting ready for these negotiations. MR. BARRY: Where is Michael Cogger now? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! PREMIER PECXFORD: There is the big difference. MR. BARRY: What happened to Michael Cogger? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! No. 32 R1874

PREMIER PECKFORD: And in every other sphere that is what is happening, · we are consulted first. And we are being -consulted now and we have meetings ongoing tomorrow in Ottawa on the trade thing, long before the trade negotiations actually get into any substance. So there is a world of difference between the two governments. The universe is unfolding as it should. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Premier. Last night I witnessed a display of insolence and contempt rare even for his own government, and I have to say that to him.

I want, of course, to congratulate the Leader of the Opposition on the sincere and honest prograimne that he laid out last night on the NAPE work. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, last night eleven KHAs from the St. John's area were invited to attend a public forum over the NAPE strike. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Would the bon. member please pose his question? MR. TULK: Let me ask the Premier, was the absence of all but one of those KHAs from the St. John's area L1875 Kay 14, 1986 Vol XL coincidental contempt?

Was it a lack of courage on the part of the MHAs from St. John's? DR. COLLINS: Were you there? MR. TULK: Yes, I was. Or was it a conscious, insolent decision on the part of the government to tell those HHAs to stay away and not to hear their constituents, as they should? Did the Premier order what I consider to be, a 'rotten, scandalous situation? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Premier. PREMIER PECKFORD: Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick . None of the above, Kr _. Speaker. MR. BAKER: Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

There is a great ·deal of educational turmoil in the Province right now in St. Bernard's, Heart's Content, Main Point, Davidsville, just to name four scattered around the Province, all involving the closing of community schools. I would like to ask the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn), is it now the policy of the Department of Education to force resettlement in this Province through the educational system by closing the small schools and supporting only the regional larger schools? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Education. MR. HEAIUI: Hr. Speaker, certainly the Ho. 32 R1875

question shows the amount of knowledge the bon. member has about the educational system in the Province. First of all, there is no turmoil today in the town of St. Bernard' s. They have already reached an agreement with the board. There are a couple of other areas in the Province where the boards say they intend to close the community schools or to bus out some of the students from the schools to other communities for the ~eneral ~ood of the students. That may not be accepted by the people in those areas.

In fact, it is made quite evident that the people are not ~oin~ alon~ with the wishes of the board at this time. Ne~otiations are underway between the boards and the people, the Parent Teachers Associations, etc., involved. In the town of St. Bernard' s, in relation to the disa~reement with the Burin Roman Catholic School Board, we saw a positive resolution was found, and undoubtedly a resolution will be found to the other situations throughout the Province.

I would, however, like to say that it is certainly not the intention of ~overnment to pull resettlement through the backdoor the way the Liberals pulled it throu~h the front door some years. We have no intention whatsoever of tryin~ to resettle areas by movin~ schools whatsoever. In fact, we stron~ly support community schools and the effect they have on rural communi ties.

Not only do we support them, but we have initiated several activities this year through my department which will protect small schools in small communities and make sure that those communities will not only survive but the schools will survive and both socially and economically there will be L1876 May 14, 1986 Vol XL improvements all around. SOME HOB. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. BAKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. the member for Gander. MR. BAKER: The solution so far has been purely temporary, Mr. Speaker, and the minister knows it.

Will the Minister of Education, in light of the fact that he has ordered a study of small schools in the Province, order a halt to the closedown of these community schools, at least until his study is in? Or is he simply going to get up, shrug his shoulders, and say, 'I can do nothing about it?' MR. DAWE: How arrogant are you at all! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Education. MR. HEARN: Mr. Speaker, what is done in relation to the opening and closing of schools in the Province, the allocation of teachers, etc., comes under the complete jurisdiction of the school boards in the various areas.

If today I stood ·up here and said that I am going to order, not ask, a certain school board to close a school or to make changes the hon. gentleman would be on his feet accusing me of interfering with school boards. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HEARN: What we have done is to create the ' · No. 32 R1876

type of atmosphere in the educational environment in this Province that will enable boards to work with the people in the various areas to provide the best possible education that can be provided. We are making sure that this possibly best type of education is delivered to the remote rural areas of the Province as well as the larger areas.

Some areas that already have thought about closing schools, and one that had already decided to close a school, that board and others also have said that, in light of the new intitiatives taken by the Government of Newfoundland, and Labrador we will sit on our decision to see what is going to come out of this because we think they are headed in the right direction. Consequently, we will sit back and hopefully we will be able to solve these problems to satisfy everybody, except, of course, the hon. gentlemen opposite .. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR.

FLIGHT: Thank you, Kr. Speaker. I have a question for the bon. the Minister of Environment (Mr. Butt). I understand the minister issued a press statement yesterday indicating that it was not the government's intention - he was the spokesman - to repair the physical man-made damages or conditions that are causing the flooding on the Trans-Canada and the subsequent closing of the Trans-Canada Highway in the Rushy Pond area just West of Grand Falls area. He said it is not his intention to repair the damages - L1877 May 14, 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: Order, ~lease! Would the bon . member please pose the question? MR.

FLIGHT: - but that he would prefer to pay for any damages caused after the flooding takes place. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of the Environment. MR. BUTT: Mr. Speaker, that has been government's position all along. We had a hydrotechnical study done, cost-shared by the provincial ·government and the federal government at a cost of some $158,000. As to the cost benefit ratio of providing flood proofing in the Rushy Pond area, you would save one dollar for every fifty dollars you spent. So, no, Mr. Speaker, we are not doing it. MR. FLIGHT: Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Windsor - Buchans.

MR. FLIGHT: Since the minister has staked out the position of the government that they do not intend to repair the road and do not intend to avoid the flooding, I would ask the minister this: Does he have any concern for the safety of the travelling public who are diverted to a roughly mile- and-a-half detour that, when one considers the congestion of traffic on that detour, can be argued as a safety hazard to the travelling public? In the event of flooding there in the future - there is no reason to No. 32 Rl877

believe there will not be flooding - does he have any concern for the safety of the travelling public who are forced to use that detour? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the · Minister of the Environment. MR. BUTT: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans continues to be somewhat of an alarmist and a little bit irresponsible in some of the statements he makes. Of course we will, whenever it is necessary, provide a flood warning to . the general public and the motoring public. It will be announced.

It will be put in The Grand Falls Advertiser, which is dominated by my bon. colleague here from Grand Falls, the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Simms). We will do what is necessary to protect the people in that area, Mr. Speaker. If in fact the area floods, we will provide assistance to residents out there in that flood prone area, as we have in the past. For example, last year it cost the government $5,500.

In order to put in flood proofing measures, to put up concrete dykes and whatever else is necessary, and bring the banks up to a level where the river cannot overflow - I do not have any control over the rainfall, unfortunately. I really cannot determine what the rainfall is going to be next year - would cost over $1 million to the taxpayers of this Province. The cost the taxpayers last year $5,500. Now, Mr. Speaker, I do not know how I can simplify it any more for the hon. member. MR. FLIGHT: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. L1878 May 14, 1986 Vol XL MR.

SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. the member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: The minister is talking about the flood damage in Badger. I am talking specifically about closing a mile of the Trans-Canada Highway, not . just for the people of Central Newfoundland but for everything that travels in Newfoundland between Port aux Basques and St. John's.

So I would ask the minister, if he is prepared to leave the Trans-Canada in a condition where it is prone to flooding, will he do one of two things; either upgrade the detour or divert the Trans-canada Highway, away from . the flooded area, along the route of the detour? Given the congestion of traffic on that road in certain conditions, it is a dangerous situation, Mr. Speaker. Will the minister commit to upgrading? If he is going to leave the Trans-Canada prone to flooding, will he upgrade the detour and make sure it is totally safe for the travelling public of this "Province? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Environment.

MR. BUTT: Minister of the Mr. Speaker, in speaking in the debate yesterday I told the hon. member that he should go to his district or send a picture down there because they are looking for him. Obviously he has not visited that area of his district in recent times because the hon. member would then know that in fact that detour, small as it is, has been paved. Most detours, Mr. Speaker, that I go over in this Province are not paved and it is No. 32 R1878

pretty rough going. But, in fact, this area that has been prone to flooding for several years, has now been paved. So I tell the hon. member once again he should go out enroute to Buchans and take the detour and have a look at it, because they are looking for the hon. member in Buchans. MR. KELLAND: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: My question relates to a news story in The Evening Telegram yesterday containing statements attributed to the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews), so I would like to direct a question to him. It relates, Mr.

Speaker, to the special excise tax on various equipment that will affect hunters, fishermen, outdoor enthusiasts, as you term them, in the Province.

In view of that, no matter what the minister's position or the position of his government is on this, .providing Ottawa goes ahead, would he, knowing that quite a large proportion of Labrador's population depends on certain outdoor activities for their livelihood, to maintain and sustain their families and so on, and indeed people in certain parts of Newfoundland as well, ensure or take the steps to ensure that there is some protection and some exemption, if the actual fresh air tax is put into effect by Ottawa, so that the people so affected in Labrador and rural parts of Newfoundland will be protected from the tax and exempt from it, so it will not affect the Ll879 May 14, 1986 Vol XL equipment they must purchase in order to carry out their everyday, traditional activities?

SOME HO!L MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Culture Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to thank the bon. gentleman for the question. I just say to him that, of course, we were first confronted with this proposal, and it is merely a proposal, by a Tory MP last Wednesday. We wanted some time really to assess as best we could the effect and the impact that this proposed tax, if imposed, would have on Newfoundlanders and Labradorians.

We are, as well, very considerate of the types of people the hon. member has referred to who depend on the outdoors and our wildlife for a living. So these are the kinds of things that we are trying to monitor, Mr. Speaker, and evaluate. We are hoping within a few days we will be able to make our position known officially as the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador. MR. KELLABD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: The minister indicates, Mr. Speaker, that it was proposed by a Tory MP, who strangely enough has the name Barry Turner.

How any Tory MP could be blessed by a name No. 32 Rl879

- - ---- · like that is beyond a lot of people, I guess. But, nevertheless, r thank you for the answer. I would like to try to stress that it has been approved by certain levels in Ottawa. For example, the Federal Minister of the Environment, Tom McMillan, is saying that the federal government is now considering it, giving it some active consideration. That would lead me to believe that it was in the federal caucus and had approval there as well. I am concerned though - KR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Wou·ld the bon . member pose his question? KR.

KELLAND: I again ask would the minister, as a minister connected with this type of an activity, no matter what your government's position is, either for or against, and no matter what Ottawa does, but if Ottawa does impose it, make some strong representation to consider the plight, · the stress and strain that that would put on the financial situation of the people, particularly in Labrador and other more rural areas of our Province? KR. SPEAI<ER: The bon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. KR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, we have no difficulty with that whatsoever.

As the minister responsible for wildlife in this Province, I have no difficulty whatsoever in making those views known to the respective authorities in Ottawa. I would just like to comment lightly to him and say that we are very glad that the other Mr. Ll880 Kay 14, 1986 Vol XL Turner is a Liberal. MR. KELLAND: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the bon. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: The headline says, Mr.

Speaker, . 'Minister seeks public reaction for proposed federal excise tax.' I wonder if the minister has entered into some sort of an arrangement to contact the public and actually actively solicit formally their input on their feelings on this fresh air tax? KR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Culture. Recreation and Youth. KR. MATTHEWS: No, Mr. Speaker, we have not formally engaged the public. The thing is we have been monitoring what has been happening in the Province over the last few days. This, again, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to reiterate is merely a proposal by a gentleman who was a biologist and environmentalist before entering politics and his concern is that there were cuts in the federal budget that affected the Canadian Wildlife Services. He was interested in finding additional funding for habitat improvement in this country, for wildlife protection and management and for fish enhancement, and this is the proposal that he is lobbying for and trying to persuade his federal counterparts to accept in Ottawa. It is strictly a proposal and it is strictly a federal proposal.

We are concerned about it because we want to monitor the affect it will have on Newfoundlanders and Labradorians .. No. 32 Rl880

MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the minister if he is aware that this proposed federal excise tax has already been approved by the Tory caucus in Ottawa and is going to the Cabinet Committee to be decided? Would he also tell us when he is going to decide what his position is going to be because this tax is going to affect every Newfoundlander and Labradorian in this Province? So can he tell us when he is going to decide this, when his government is going to make its position clear?

I would like·to know that. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of CUlture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, what has happened with this proposal is that Mr. Turner has lobbied and talked with non-government organizations and associations right throughout the country, and at the wildlife colloquium last week he indicated that he had significant amount of support across the country from these organizations and associations for this tax. The thing is, as well, he has taken it to the Caucus Committee on Environment and Renewable Resources.

He has talked and discussed the proposal with them, lobbying them for their support in trying to get the federal government to accept this, but as of now, Mr. Speaker, it is merely in a proposal form. Ll881 May 14, 1986 Vol XL MR. K. AYLWARD : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the bon. -the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Is the minister aware that there is already a federal tax on these items, also a 12 per cent sales tax, a tax on the cost of the firearms acquisition certificate, there is a hunter's licence and there is a habitat conservation tax? Is he aware of those taxes?

And, considering all the taxes that are now on Newfoundlanders, is he just going to tell the minister up in Ottawa, 'No, we will have nothing to do with it, you are taxing us enough'? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, we are very much aware of the taxation burden of the people of this Province and that is why we wanted to behave and act in a responsible manner when it came to assessing and evaluating this proposal.

The other thing I would like to say to the bon. member is I have had a number of lobbies from members opposite over the past year and they are very concerned about wildlife protection and wildlife management in this Province. They get up and criticize the government because we do not have enough wildlife protection, because we are not trying to keep down poaching, but, I mean, if we are going to improve on these kinds of things, then money has to come from somewhere. MR. TULIC: No. 32 R1881

You are agreeing with them up there. MR. MATTHEWS: I am not agreeing with anything. MR. TULK: By your attitude you agree with it. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, I would like the protection of the Chair. I feel that I can communicate well enough without having the member for Fogo try to communicate for me. We all know he has had his problems in recent days. But the situation, Mr. Speaker, with regard to this proposal, is we want to assess and evaluate it very carefully as a government to see what effect it will have on Newfoundlanders and Labradorians and our position will be known in a matter of days. SOME HOB.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. t. AYLWARD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. · the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Evaluation! Thinking it over! Going to get public reaction - you do not even know how you are going to get public reaction. Will the minister tell us what his personal opinion is of the tax? Will he tell us whether he has had any consultations with the minister in Ottawa, since they are supposed to be co-operating and consulting all the time, when they are going to lay a tax on every Newfoundlander down here who wants to hunt and fish?

Can he tell us whether he has had any consultation whatsoever with his federal Tory buddies? L1882 Kay 14, 1986 Vol XL MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of CUlture, ·Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS: Kr. Speaker, I question even but I guess, will respond. do not know if that deserves response, to be courteous , I The situation is that I spent last Tuesday, Wednesday and part of Thursday with the federal Minister of the Environment, the hon. Tom McMillan, in Ottawa. I talked with him on a number of occasions in a group forum and I talked to him on a number of occasions privately.

So co-operation and consultation is not a problem between Kr. McMillan and me. The thing is that we have seen federal minia~e~s more in _ _th~ past year than we saw the Liberal ministers in sixteen years of government in Ottawa. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! The time for Oral Questions has elapsed. Petitions MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Kenihek. MR. FERWICIC: Mr. Speaker, I am going to be very brief on this because the prayer of the petition is very familiar. It is: ..

We, the undersigned, petition the provincial government to put in place the necessary funding to complete the Encyclopedia of Newfoundland and Labrador." No. 32 R1882

The reason I introduce it today is the petition, Mr. Speaker, is from Dorset Collegiate on Pilley's Island in the district of Green Bay. I would like a specific response from the member for Green Bay (Mr. Peckford) with regard to this petition in order to get some idea of what · the problems may be with regard to the government's position on the finishing of the encyclopedia. Orders of the Day MR. SPEAKER: It is Private Members' Day. The motion is in · the name of the bon. member for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush) . The bon. member for Bonavista North. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, it is a great privilege to introduce this resolution today, a resolution, Mr. Speaker, that will meet the established criteria by any recognized body of knowledge or institution as an excellent ·resolution. The resolution, Mr. Speaker, is clear, concise and precise, leaving no room for misunderstanding, no room for misinterpreting and no room for misconstruing. The actions requested by this resolution are clear-cut, succinct and practical. Mr. Speaker, for . the record of the House, let me read the resolution.

It says: "WHEREAS unemployment remains the number one problem affecting the Province of Newfoundland and Ll883 May 14, 1986 Vo_l XL Labrador; "AND

WHEREAS it is every day more apparent that the problem requires, as part of a total solution, initiatives that are innovative, aggressive and original; "AND

WHEREAS certain Province are much afflicted by the unemployment than ·the general; areas of the more deeply problem of Province in "BE IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that this House deplores government's business as usual approach to critically high unemployment; "AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that government, upon identification of those areas of Newfoundland and Labrador most seriously ravaged by unemployment, proceed to the designation of . those areas as reduced tax zones, for the purpose of providing extraordinary economic stimulus where it is most needed; "AND BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that government, as a means of direct stimulus to the provincial economy, and as an encouragement to small business in the creation of jobs, immediately move to a reduction in the provincial sales tax. •• SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: This resolution, Mr. Speaker, recognizes that the economy of this Province is very stagnant. We have a depressed economy resulting in excessively and outrageously high levels of unemployment. The rate, over the past three or four years, has consistently been at the 20 per No. 32 R1883

cent level with fluctuations vacillating up and down, sometimes a little above 20 per cerit, sometimes a little below. But there llas been no significant consistent pattern to show that the provincial government have the matter in hand and no consistent drop in to demonstrate that we are on the road to effectively or substantially correcting this problem. The Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), in discussing the estimates of his department, indicated that there has been improvement in the levels of unemployment over the past little while.

What I suggested to the minister at that time and I still say to the minister, if there is improvement, the Province is still in intensive care with respect to the levels of unemployment in this Province. Mr. Speaker, this resolution also recognizes the fact that in addition to the direct involvement and the direct participation of federal and provincial governments in job creation progranunes, there must also be initiatives undertaken by the private sector.

We believe that despite the availability of loans and grants to various businesses, we must understand that the loans and grants made available by the provincial government and the federal government do not apply to all businesses. They only apply to certain types of businesses and industries, but despite these loans and grants, in order for the economy to grow and expand. there must be consumer spending.

It is our contention, supported by many current reputable studies, that consumer spending has been tremendously stymied and stiffled Ll884 Kay 14, 1986 Vol XL in this Province by various tax measures by both the federal and the provincial levels of government over the past couple of years. When we are talking about consumer spending in this Province, we must look at the combined effect of two budgets. We cannot look at one in isolation of the other.

When we talk about consumer spending in this Province and how it has been stymied and stiffled over the past couple of years. in particular in the past eighteen months. we must look at the tax measures imposed on the people of this Province by both levels of government. by the federal government and . by the provincial government. Mr. Speaker, the combined effect of tax measures by both l~vel =s'---' o:o.:f=--- ---­ government is going to have a devastating effect on the people of this Province. particularly with respect to consumer spending.

If the consumers have no disposable cash, if they have no money to spend, the economy cannot grow and expand. Mr. Speaker, this is what we are talking about in this resolution. We are trying to come up with some suggestions that will give the consumer some disposable cash to increase consumer spending. which will cause the economy to grow and expand. which will cause businesses to grow and expand and which will result in new and more employment. Mr. ·speaker, it is just a snowball or mushrooming effect when these things work in co-ordination.

When the consumers start spending and the economy starts growing and expanding and we get new and more employment, it means more money for the government, more money that they can spend. So, Mr. Speaker, it works in a Ho. 32 R1884

· co-.,.ordina ted fashion. and systematic Mr. Speaker, I suppose the question that one could ask is how has the two most recent budgets affected the situation? What will their result be with respect to consumer spending in this Province this year? How will they affect consumer spending? Already we all know that we can start off with certain givens with respect to the Newfoundland economy. We ·know that we have the highest cost of living attributable to the fact that we have the highest taxation levels in all of Canada, particularly with respect to the retail sales tax. We also have the lowest per capita income.

So before we start looking at how these two present budgets will affect consumer spending in this Province, we have these two givens, the highest cost of living and the lowest per capita income. We can ask the question, without thinking about these two most recent budgets, how are Newfoundlanders and Labradorians going to cope with the tremendous stagnation that is presently been experienced with our provincial economy? How are Newfoundlanders and Labradorians going to be able to cope with the financial situation that this Province is presently in? Where are we in terms of consumer spending?

Are we going to be better off this year than we were last year? Are we going to see increased consumer spending as a result of the provincial government's budget and as a result of the federal government's budget? Are we going to have more consumer spending? That is the crux of the problem, Mr. Speaker. Now, Mr. Speaker, let us look at L1885 May 14, 1986 Vol XL some statistics for all of Canada . Let us look at some statistics applying to the country as a whole and see if we can relate that to the Newfoundland situation? Mr.

Speaker, the Canadian Council of Social Development has established the poverty line, or they have established the low income cut ·off, another terminology that they use, the low income cut off. Some people refer to it as the poverty line, a salary beneath which people are on poverty. The Canadian Council of Social Development has established the low income cut off at $21,700 for a Canadian family of four living in a Canadian city. Mr. Speaker, I ask you how many families in Newfoundland are below that salary? How wo~ld we relate that to the Newfoundland situation?

I would expect if we took half that figure, at $10,000, we would get some kind of a feeling for Newfoundland and Labradorians. How difficult life must be for these people in trying to make ends meet when we realize that the low income cutoff, nationally, for a family of four is $21,700. There are some people who think that is a little too high. Statistics Canada, they also have established a low income cutoff figure. The Statistics Canada figure is $21,000 for a family of four. How many people in Newfoundland, do we expect, are making below $21, 000? Members of the House are not making much more than that.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I say these are national figures, but certainly we can relate them to Newfoundland, and these figures alone, the low income cutoff salary level is at No. 32 R1885

$21,000 for a family of four. Kr. Speaker, we look at inflation. I want to make a few points about inflation in the main because it is government that has been responsible for creating inflation, certainly for increasing inflation over the past two or three years. Both the provincial government and the federal government by their excessive tax measures,have added to . inflation in this Province. Kr. Speaker, these are not just figures that I am throwing off the top of my head, these are facts. It says, 'Inflation has driven the no frills cost, just the basics, of feeding a family up to $100 per week. Kr.

Speaker, can we ge .t the seriousness and the gravity of that statistic? Inflation has driven the no frills cost of feeding a family up to $100 a week in Canada in the past couple of years. 'Inflation has pushed the average national price for a house to $82,000.' That might be a little cheaper in St. John's but how much cheaper - $10,000? We are looking at $72,000 for a home. Kr. Speaker, is the next generation going to be able to ever own a house, something that has always . been cherished by the people of this Province?

At those kinds of prices, I think we are going to relegate the next generation to apartments. Young people are not going to be able to afford to buy a house. Kr. Speaker, another startling statistic, and I want to use the national figures to relate it to Newfoundland. 'Inflation has made $100,000 a very conservative estimate of the cost of raising one child to age eighteen. ' I do not know, Mr.

Speaker, whether hon. members got the impact of L1886 Kay 14, 1986 Vol XL that statistic. 'Inflation has made $100,000' , it says, 'a very conservative estimate of the cost of raising one child to age eighteen in Canada today.' Mr. Speaker, how has this Province added to increasing inflation? Tremendously, Mr. Speaker, even in the last Budget. For example, for the first quarter of this year the cost of food went up by 2. 8 per cent. Now, that is an area where the government have not yet got its claws. They have not got their claws into taxing food. How about tobacco, where we have had two increases?

These two increases are included. We have had two increases, one by the federal government and one by the provincial government. For the first quarter of this year the cost of tobacco has gone up 16 per cent. I just use these two figures to illustrate how government, by its tax measures, adds to creating inflation. Mr. Speaker, what is the situation with respect to the economy this year, then, as a result of the tax measures by this provincial government and by the federal government? I quote here from Woods Gordon Economic Bulletin of April of this year.

They are talking about the growth in the Canadian economy, but there are some lines here that I think are important for this House of Assembly and germane to this resolution. It says, 'A number of factors can be expected to constrain, though not halt, the economic expansion over the next eighteen months. Consumer spending, which has provided much of the impetus for growth, will be significantly blunted by recent increases in No. 32 Rl886

in~ome, sales and excis ·e- taxes by both federal and provincial governments. •_ Here we have it, Mr. Speaker, a reputable firm saying that consumer spending is going to be tremendously stymied and stiffled because of tax measures by both levels of government, that by income tax, sales tax, · and various other taxes , consumer spending is going to be blunted. Mr. Speaker, it goes on to say, 'As a result, we expect that most of the spending increase by consumers will have to be generated by employment gains.' Hr.

Speaker, it is because of the decrease in consumer spending that this resolution makes the recommendations that it does: One to establish a tax zone in those areas were unemployment is high, in those areas where unemployment is most excessive. And, Hr. Speaker, that is not a recommen4ation that was just thought up only by the Opposition, although we take great pride in the fact that we did establish this policy a year ago. The federal government followed our lead practically when they did the same thing with Cape Breton, when they introduced that as a reduced tax zone.

And this is what we are asking for, a reduced tax zone to encourage the establishment of new business, the growth of existing business so that we can generate employment. It is to increase consumer spending that we ask for a reduction in the retail sales tax. Now, Mr. Speaker, this document proves that consumer spending is going to be down as a result of the tax measures imposed by both levels of government. We have come up with a solution, we are recommending a solution to ensure L1887 Kay 14, 1986 Vol XL that consumer spending is increased. OUr resolution, Mr.

Speaker, would have the result of zeroing in on three basic problems faced by this Province, one, it would help increase the economic growth of the Province; two, it would lower inflation; and three, it would help increase· employment. Now, Mr. Speaker, what better resolution could an hon. member present to this House, a resolution thgt would have the effect of increasing the economic growth, one, number two, lowering inflation and, number three, to increase employment. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, this resolution recognizes that the problems of this Province, by and large - MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. member's time has elapsed. SOME HOM. MEMBERS: By leave! By leave! MR. LUSH: If I may finish, Mr. Speaker? It is just a line. This resolution, Mr. Speaker, recognizes that the problems of this Province are by and large economic. It also recognizes that the solutions are political. We need a government with the political will, the political desire and the political initiative to solve the problems. Mr.

Speaker, I suggest that the problems can be solved and I call on all bon. members today to do the consumer a favour, to do small business a favour and see that this resolution is acted upon No. 32 Rl887

immediately . Thank you, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, I just want to spend a few moments today questioning exactly how the Liberal Opposition, the alternate government, which they portray themselves to be, wants to solve the unemployment issues in this Province. I missed the first part of the member for Bonavista North's (Mr.

Lush) comme~ts, ·but at 4:08 p.m. or .so - and it will be shown in Hansard quite clearly - he says, 'A decrease in consumer spending is the reason why the resolution is here, . and the way to solve employment · or unemployment is by increased spending. • I cannot, for the life of me, imagine an Opposition party and their spokesman, as it relates to labour and employment issues, saying that the only way, or the . sole way, or the most important way, or the way they would do it if they were over here is to reduce the sales tax to solve all the unemployment woes of every soul in Newfoundland. The first

WHEREAS says : "WHEREAS unemployment remains the number one problem affecting the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador", and the last passage says: "BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that government, as a means of direct stimulus to the p.rovincial economy, and as an encouragement to small business in L1888 May 14, 1986 Vol XL the creation of jobs, immediately move to a reduction in the provincial sales tax." Can you imagine such a simplistic approach? The --Liberal party's position on solving the unemployment problems in Newfoundland is to raise or to lower the sales tax, and to raise consumer spending in Newfoundland.

Mr. Speaker, either they have a fundamental ignorance about economics or a fundamental total ignorance of the economy in Newfoundland, to think that simply by consumer spending in Newfoundland we are going to solve our unemployment problem. If we had a totally closed economy, if we produced everything that we consumed, then, sure, consumption would increas~ production within Newfoundland and by increased consumption and, therefore, increased production within Newfoundland, we would create a large number of jobs in both the co~suming side and in the producing side. Unfortunately, Mr.

Speaker, what happens in Newfoundland, because of the type of economy we have, is that the vast majority of things that we consume are not produced within Newfoundland, and thereby the simplistic approach of trying to say that by simple reductions in sales tax and increased spending somehow or other we are going to employ the number of persons who were unemployed in Newfoundland last year. Mr. Speaker, I have to say that since this Session of the Legislature opened there has not been one single question about employment, about how to solve the unemployment needs in Newfoundland, not one single suggestion.

There certainly has not been a comment about this month's statistics, which I will No. 32 Rl888

gl~dly table for members opposite, because they obviously have not seen them. Mr. Speaker, back in April of 1985 the actual number of unemployed people in Newfoundland was 56,000, and the adjusted was 53,000, if you average it out over a yearly period. The number of employed people in April of 1985, by provable statistics, was 161,000 employed. That is April of 1985. Do you know how many people were employed in April of 1986, just one single year?

Almost corresponding to April of 1985, the election of a Tory Government, the Peckford Government as opposed to the Barry alternate government, who wants to simply reduce sales tax as a means to stimulate the economy, there are 10,000 more people today, this April, this year, working in Newfoundland than there were in April of 1985 , and we have not reduced the sales tax. Now, Mr. Speaker, if you take the member for Bonavista North's logic, then, obviously, something must be wrong.

There cannot be 10,000 more people working in Newfoundland this month this year than there was a year ago, because we have not reduced the sales tax. The sales tax is still at a level that most persons on this side of the Legislature would prefer to have reduced, but because we have to have a large amount of social services in Newfoundland, we have to have a 12 per cent sales tax.

I hope nobody on the opposite side or in the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador thinks that we have a 12 per cent sales tax because we just want to have 12 per cent, because it is a nice even kind of figure, or because we want to collect money. We collect that 12 per cent sales tax, do you know why? As Chairman of the Social L1889 Kay 14, 1986 Vol XL Policy -·committee of Cabinet, obviously I am somewhat aware of how much money we spend in the social sector.

Most persons in the provincial jurisdiction do not know that 61.8 per cent of the provincial budget, $1.6 billion of a little over a $2 billion budget, is spent on the social sector in Newfoundland. That is why we have to have a 12 per cent sales tax. If you take the logic of the member opposite and you reduce the sales tax, you stimulate the economy and everybody lives happily ever after, who pays for the hospitals? Who pays for the schools? Who pays for social services? Who pays for job creation programmes? Obviously the money has to come from somewhere.

When the Leader of the Opposition was over at the university trying to hoodwink some students into thinking that if the Liberal Party of Newfoundland became the Liberal Government of Newfoundland, then all of a sudden they would find some fountain of youth, some great pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and all our problems would be solved, I heard a student ask the Leader of the Opposition, "Do you have, as Leader of the Opposition, some kind of magic formula, some kind of magic tree that you can pick money off and nobody else in Canada can?" And the Leader of the Opposition simply had to say, "No, there is no magic way to create money.

There is no magic way for a government to get money." You have to raise it through taxes. You have to spend it in the social sector, in the government sector or in the resource sector. In the case of Newfoundland, this year we spent $1. 6 billion, a fair ·chunk of it raised through the 12 per cent -sales tax, on social services No. 32 R1889

in this Province. Members opposite are inconsistent, they do so little research, they do not do their homework, they have no planned approach about the economy of Newfoundland or the improvement of Newfoundland. Yesterday the member for St. Barbe (Mr. Furey) got up and was very soundly trounced by the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle) when he wanted more money for municipal services, such as water and sewer.

Today the member for Gander (Mr Baker) was severely trounced by the Minister of Education because the member for Gander wants more money for small schools, small conanuni ties and education in this Province while, at the same time, the Liberal Opposition says, "Collect less money, spend more mo~ey, reduce the sales tax and everybody works in Newfoundland." Obviously there is very little support in the Liberal Opposition for the member for Bonavista North's (Mr. Lush) resolution.

There is very little belief that by simply reducing sales tax and by increasing consumer spending you can solve the unemployment problems in this Province. Mr. Speaker. the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) talks about new ideas. The member for Windsor-Buchans was a member of this Legislature for a while and he was out for a while.

He came back for another little while, but he will be out again because he is going to prove to the people of Windsor - Buchans that he has no new ideas. that he is simply here to try and fight the paper companies • to try and fight against good forest management which does protect jobs, which will create employment L1890 May 14_. 1986 Vol XL in Newfoundland, which will significantly improve the quality of life. which will give more money for persons to spend. thereby enabling government to collect more taxes to supply more social services.

The member for Windsor - Buchans is going to prove to his constituents, in this short term, that he is going to become an alternate member; every second term he might get elected. when people forget what he said during the .term he was here. I listened to the member during the last term he was here: He fought the paper companies, he tried to unemploy paper workers, he tried to prevent any wildlife management in this Province. MR. FLIGHT: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Greening): A point of order, the bon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR.

FLIGHT: Mr; Speaker, I have no problem with the member's diarrhea of words that we have been listening to for the past half hour. The member has been here long enough to know that if he is going to attach motives to one's performance in this House he has to be honest. And he is being less than honest right now. and that is out of character for that particular member. MR. TOBIN: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the bon. the member for Burin-Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: No. 32 R1890

Mr. Speaker, it is obvi~us that the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Power) has touched a very sore point with the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) . He has exposed his performance in this House, he has told the member for Windsor Buchans what he stood for in the past and what he stands for in the present. Mr. Speaker, I think the Minister of Career Development is certainly exposing the member for Windsor - Buchans and, indeed, the philosophy of the Opposition as it relates to the way they want to create jobs in this Province. MR.

SPEAKER: To that point of order, there is a difference of opinion between two bon. members. The hon. Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, . I know I touched a nerve with the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight). It is not a personal nerve I touched, it is a nerve of the Liberal Party of Newfoundland and Labrador, because they simply have no position as it relates to the management of this Province and job creation.

They got up here today with the silliest resolution that this House has seen in a long time: You can solve all the woes of Newfoundland by reducing the sales tax. Now, the member for Windsor Buchans knows that when he fights against a forest management programme, when he is against a spray programmes he is saying, 'As a government in Newfoundland you had better jeopardize one or two thousand jobs in this Province. ' And the sales tax, Mr. Speaker, is not going to affect that problem. Ll891 May 14, 1986 Vol XL MR. FLIGHT: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR.

FLIGHT: As the Speaker will know, if the hon. member is going· to attribute motives, he has to be honest. I have never fought against the spray programme and I have never fought against good forest management. I have fought for good forest management, Mr. Speaker, and the member knows that. He is again being dishonest in this House. He is probably deliberately attempting to mislead this House, Mr. Speaker. MR. TOBIN: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of . order, the bon. member for Burin - Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: Mr.

Speaker, the member for Windsor - Buchans is treading on very thin ice when he makes these types of accusations across the House against the Minister of Career Development. The fact of the matter is, the truth hurts sometimes, Mr. Speaker. Maybe the member for Windsor - Buchans made a mistake when he was attacking the Forest Management Programme, maybe he was mistaken when he was trying to prevent jobs being created in this Province. The fact of the matter is, he cannot be allowed to stand up in this House and make such accusations across the House gainst the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies.

MR. SPEAKER: No. 32 Rl891

To that point of order, there is a difference of opinion between two bon. members. The bon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr. Speaker, obviously· the member for Windsor - Buchans, who does not sit in his seat all that regularly, is here now and he is going to try and disrupt my thoughts and my-opinions about the silliness, the absolute silliness, the fundamental economic immaturity of a party that could pose this resolution as a means of solving the unemployment problem in Newfoundland.

I have sat in this House as the Minister of Forestry and as a member, and I have listened to the member for Gander, before he was a member and since, I listend to the member for Stephenville, I believe - was it Stephenville or Gander? - who responded one day about the forest spray programme, I have listened to the member for Windsor Buchans, when he was here before and now, and I know as one person who sat in this House continuously, not in out and in, but continuously for a twelve year period - MR. FLIGHT: You had a rough time getting here. MR.

POWER: Only rough in the beginning, but not rough when the people of Ferryland and the people of Newfoundland realize that somebody comes here who is willing to do a good job, not simply to play games with people's lives like this resolution is doing today, trying to. convince people that simply because you go to the store and pay 9, 10 or 11 per cent tax, that somehow or other, when you go home L1892 Kay 14, 1986 Vol XL in the evening, your son or daughter who is unemployed is going to be employed because you paid a cent or two less at Woolco or K Mart when you bought a few goods. Mr.

Speaker, it is simplistic, it is silly, and if it does not show deception, it shows a fundamental ignorance about economics and about Newfoundland. Mr. Speaker, let me tell you how to solve the unemployment problems in Newfoundland. Why have we. reduced the unemployed numbers in Newfoundland by 10,000 individuals over a one year period? Why have we done that and how have we done it? We have done it, Kr.

Speaker, by having a good forestry programme, by having a good silviculture programme, by assisting the paper companies, by assistit:tg the small sawmillers in this Province to run their companies properly, by giving them ' grants, by giving them assistance to open up forest access roads, by giving them help in marketing. I know, when I was Minister of Forestry, we gave a grant of $40,000-odd to the Newfoundland Lumber Producers Association to help them grade their lumber properly so that they could get into more markets. That created jobs in Newfoundland. That is good forest management.

What have we done in Fisheries, Kr. Speaker, to get 10, 000 more people working this year than last year? What have we done in Fisheries? Kr. Speaker, I represent a part of Northeast Newfoundland where we have, in my district, nine or ten fish processors. How do we keep those processors going? How do we keep those jobs safe in Newfoundland? It is not, Kr. Speaker, by reducing the amount of retail sales tax that they pay on their No. 32 R1892

cutting machines, or pay on their fork-lift, we keep them in place by giving them marketing assistance, by giving them government grants. Thirty million dollars of taxpayers• money in this budget, this year, goes into making sure a lot of the small fish plants are stable, have working capital and can pay their workers and their fishermen a fair return on the work that they put into those companies. So in the fishing industry, Mr. Speaker, we have done a large amount. Why is Fishery Products International going to show a profit this year? Why is Burin successful? Why is Grand Bank doing okay?

Why has the Fermeuse plant just been sold to a very successful Portuguese company? Why do we have people working there today? Mr. Speaker, it is not because the sales tax was reduced, like the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush) says, it is not .because you are going to reduce the sales tax and increase consumer spending. That is not why people are working -in Burin and Grand Bank, or why FPI will make a profit this year. They will make a profit ·and they will employ people in Newfoundland simply because we have a good fishery management scheme.

The only problem we have in Newfoundland, more than any other, is that if we had more control of the fisheries resource, if we had more access to fish, then you would have more very successful Grand Banks and Burgeos and Burins and Fermeuses than you have today. Mr. Speaker, I have to say that simply reducing the sales tax in Fermeuse will not make anybody have any more money. It does not make anybody more employable.

It simply says that you have an Ll893 May 14, 1986 Vol XL economy in , Newfoundland where you have put some money into the resource sector, and you spend 62 per cent of your budget in social services, health, education, welfare, a whole range of things to make sure that we have in this Province, besides having people employed and besides having long-term plans, on a temporary basis, fair access to welfare, fair access to health, fair access to education. Those are the things we have done. MR. FLIGHT: Tell us about the jobs. MR. POWER: Which jobs would you like? The Canada job strategy?

The 10,000 jobs that are here and members opposite would wish were not here? That is the craziest thing about democracy that I have ever seen, that members of the Opposition have to wish all of the ill will on the people of the Province they wish to represent and then hope that all their ill wishes come true, then the government is turfed out and they, who wished all this badness on the public, are then put in place as a government. That is the craziest thing about democracy that I see. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, a point of order. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the bon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR.

FLIGHT: The minister cannot continue to attribute motives, you know, what the Opposition wills on the general public of this Province. I would give the minister a chance now to explain to the House or to clarify these 10,000 jobs that he referred to over and over again in No. 32 R1893

his speech. Are these stable, permanent jobs, they the jobs created Fisheries Programme and Works Projects? MR. SPEAKER: 10,000 or are by the Canada To that point of order, there is no point of order. The hon. the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies. MR. POWER: Mr.

Speaker, the member for Windsor - Buchans, because he knows we are touching the core of the Liberal Party, a party without plans, a party without programmes, a party that is simply a bandwagon party, depending on who is in the Gallery - if it is NAPE, they will jump on the NAPE bandwagon, if it is fire-fighters, they will jump on the fire-fighter bandwagon, if it happens to be the Association for the Mentally Retarded, they will jump on that bandwagon. They are a bandwagon party. They have no programmes. They have no plans. The 10,000 jobs are there.

Now, as the member opposite says, sure some of the jobs we created are short-term, temporary, make-work kind of projects. But tell me, Mr. Speaker, was Churchill Falls any different? Churchill Falls, the biggest . single construction _project this Province has ever seen, was that anything more than a make-work project? It might have gone on for four or five years instead of four or five months, but look at what they gave away in order to get it. MR. FLIGHT: Hinds Lake, Cat Arm. MR. POWER: . They are benefits for the people Ll894 May 14, 1986 Vol XL of Newfoundland. MR. FLIGHT: Not Cat Arm.· MR.

POWER: Cat Arm:· was a project that was developed. You cannot compare Cat Arm with the Upper Churchill? MR. FLIGHT: Why not? MR. POWER: Because in the Upper Churchill we gave away a tremendous resource with little or no benefit to the people of Newfoundland,

whereas we developed the Cat Arm and the Upper Salmon and the Bay d' Espoir projects for the benefit of Newfoundland and gave nothing away. That is the difference, Mr. Speaker, because they believe that as long as you have people working today, that is okay, there is no long-term solution. What we have done in the fisheries, forestry, in our tourism marketing promotion and the development tliat we have done over the last few years, including what we have done with the Hibernia oilfield offshore, has long-term benefits for the people of Newfoundland. When the jobs come, they will be long-term.

They will not be temporary. Corne By Chance was another make work project of Joey Smallwood, short-term and temporary, not based on economics, not based on sense, not based on logic, but based on the politics of the day for the Liberal Party, to make sure they get elected and be damned to the future of Newfoundland. That is the difference between the members opposite and us. They think that today, to solve the problems of Newfoundland, one should reduce No. 32 R1894

sales tax, get on the sales tax popular bandwagon, get over on this side and then do everything they can and connive any way they can to stay in power. That is the difference between the Peckford administration and the administration over there, if, God forbid, they ever get to be over here. They would try and . do anything they could to make sure that they would stay elected. The same as today, Mr. Speaker, where they would jump on any bandwagon they can to get over here. This government intends to solve the unemployment problem in Newfoundland.

We intend to solve it based on sound economics, based on good sense, based upon the resources that we have, not Come By Chance, not Upper Churchill type arrangements, but based on the resources that we have, the fishery, forestry, mining, agriculture, a tourism industry and the offshore oil industry. That is how we will solve the problem. That is how we went from 161,000 employed last year to 171,000 employed this year, and we will go to 181,000 employed next year, Kr. Speaker.

We will get there not based on a simplistic, silly, asinine reduction of 1 per cent or 2 per cent in the sales tax, but based on sound planning, based on good economics, and based upon the resources that we have. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. POWER: Then, Mr. Speaker, when we have those resources all functioning and we still need $1.6 billion for social services, a good school system, and a good health system, we will get that $1.6 million from earned income, from income tax, from other sources of revenue and Ll895 Kay 14, 1986 Vol XL from corporate income tax within Newfoundland.

We will not have to gain it by sales tax. Then, and only then can you reduce the sales tax. To do one without the other, Mr. Speaker, is absolutely silly and simplistic. · It · simply shows to me this resolution, which obviously has very little support within the Liberal Party and very little support within the Opposition, and it certainly has no support on this side of the House, that there are things that we have to do. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the minister's time is up. MR. POWER: Yes, we will solve the unemployment problems in this Province. Kr.

Speaker, we intend to do that based on sound, long-term planning and not on the short-term, silly, bandwagon solutions of the members opposite. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is a pleasure to speak to this resolution today. After listening to that spew there or whatever that was, I will get into my comments. I am not even going to response to such remarks which are nothing but pure politics and a sign of a lack of ideas. Ten thousand more people are No. 32 Rl895

supposedly employed this year than there was last year. A couple of months ago we hit a historical high of 100.000 people collecting unemployment insurance in · this Province. It is the first time in history. We did not see a minister come in then with a report or a Ministerial Statement stating . that this was something that we really must reckon with and that this was something that we had to deal with. There was no sign of any of the twenty-two ministers getting up and admitting that we have a major problem in this Province.

Instead, we have a glossed over statistic coming to the House of Assembly. • We have created 10.000 more jobs from last year•. Talk about economic approaches. they have all the plans in the world. They are going to improve the economy of Newfoundland and Labrador. and this resolution can make no contribution to that. We have no understanding and nobody in Newfoundland has any understanding out there. Anybody who opposes this administration or one idea of it has no idea how to · reckon with the problems of this Province.

I was reading a business magazine in Newfoundland, Business Hewfoundland, the third edition, Special Show Guide - Construction and Home lxpo • 86, and the editorial reads: "Premier~ s Office llot Interested. It seems a strange thing when a government that places such emphasis on development in the business sectors is not interested in supporting an exclusive business publication for Newfoundland by Newfoundlanders. ''SUch was premier's the response from the office when approached L1896 May 14. -1986 Vol XL for a letter of congratulations on the first issue of Business Newfoundland magazine." SOME HOlT.

MEMBERS: Shame! Shame! :· KR. K. AYLWARD: ''After seeing letters in every possible publication from the smallest newsprint rag on up to other mass market publications. I believed wholeheartedly that a ·highly informative, quality publication would be welcomed with opened arms by our devoted leader. Bot so. 'We're just not interested' was the response from the pr~er's press secretary ." All HOB. KEMBER: Shame! MR. K. AYLWARD: "Second issue. A second denial and a political run-around from the premier's office. A well versed chorus of 'maybe • s . A letter sent to the premier himself. llo reply.

How. the third issue. A general reply of: 'Haven't come to a decision yet. Call us Monday. Call us Tuesday." That is the policy and philosophy of this provincial government. when a business magazine produced in Newfoundland cannot even get a letter of congratulations from the Premier of this Province. I think it is a shame : I think it speaks of this administration. DR. COLLINS: We are not spending enough money on advertising. KR. K. AYLWARD: You are not spending it in the right manner. sir. Spend it in the right manner instead of the foolishness that you are doing with it now. - No. 32 R1896

So I would suggest, before I get into my remarks, especially pertaining to improving ·business in Newfoundland and Labrador, Mr. Speaker, let the Premier be directed to at least welcome this good edition of a magazine that talks about business in Newfoundland and expresses the points of view of business people, at the very least, address the magazine and give them some encouragement and some input, as they did request a number of times. So the initiative is not there and the policies are not there. DR. COLLINS: I do not think you are aware of what that magazine is. MR. K.

AYLWARD: I am not aware of what that magazine is? MR. DECKER: The Minister of Finance knows what it is. MR. K. AYLWARD: I measure a Premier or an administration on the unemployment rate, Mr. Speaker. MR. TULK: Tell the bon. gentleman that we will pay for a subscription for him. KR. K. AYLWARD: We will pay for a subscription. As a matter of fact, I will take it out of my pay. Mr. Speaker, I measure an administration on its unemployment rate, and on this one, they would not get a fifty, they would not get a forty-nine.

They would be kicked out of the classroom because they have not been doing anything for the last five or six L1897 Kay 14, 1986 Vol XL years. I think it is time they really sat down and started plotting out some kind of plan of action to attack this problem. We recently had 100,000 people on unemployment insurance, a record in the history of this Province, and yet there was not a whimper, there was not ~ sign, there was not any recognition of that fact by this administration, not a sign that, 'Yes, we have a major catastrophe out there.' This resolution puts forward an initiative.

It does not put forward a total policy. It does not put forward our. all-being or what we want to do to improve the Province. This is one initiative put forward by my bon. colleague, and it was ably p~~ - forward, I might add. So ~hen the member for Ferryland (Kr. Power) gets up and says this is the be-all of the Liberal Party, it is total deception, as far as I am concerned. We are putting forward one or two ideas in this resolution which can be considered by the administration, which is the role of the Opposition. Its role is not to say nothing but be critical all the time.

We have given him lots of ideas, ideas on youth unemployment, for example, but he does not want to address that. There is 40 per cent youth unemployment and they do not want to do anything about it. Other provinces in this country are doing things about it. 'No, we have decided we are not going to bother because, well, you know, we need money for our renovations, we need money for this and we need money for that. To heck with the youth of Newfoundland and Labrador.' It is a province lllo. 32 sad, sad thing when a is in this state of R1897

affairs. People out there are looking for a sense of direction. They are saying, 'How many more years are we going to have to put up with this?' They got hoodwinked in the last couple of elections on offshore oil, putting all their marbles in one basket and now we see what exactly is happening to the offshore. We would like to see something happen with the offshore but when you put all your marbles in one basket, what can you expect.

People out there, especially in rural Newfoundland, are starting to shake their heads and say, 'We are starting not to believe this Premier, we are starting not to believe this administration.' MR. DECKER: Why would they say that? MR. K. AYLWARD: I do not lmow why they would say that but they are starting to say that and they coming up to me and telling me this and I am very pleased. I am finally starting to say, 'Well, boy, I-was not totally wrong either.' People are starting to come along · and say to me, 'You lmow, you probably were right.

We are starting to see the light. ' They are going to start seeing the light more and more every day and the light is really going to start shining. We are going to keep presenting alternatives to this administration because that is easy to do when you are as bankrupt of ideas as this administration is, any one you put forward is a good help. At least people out there say, 'The Liberal party is putting forward some ideas on how to solve the problems around here, ' instead of this wishy-washy business. For L1898 May 14, 1986 Vol XL example, we sign a forestry agreement with 70/30 cost share ratios. MR.

FLIGHT: Is that more money than the previous one? MR. K. AYLWARD: That is more money than the previous one, he tells us. MR. BAKER: The Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Simms) should listen to this. MR. K. AYLWARD: I cannot understand it to tel~ you the truth. I am very simple minded I think and I think everybody else in Newfoundland is too because one fellow came up and he said, 'It was 90/10 before and not it is 70/30, is that not less money being put in by the federal government?' I said, 'Yes, that is exactly what it is.' MR. DECKER: How do they explain that? MR. K.

AYLWARD: They explained it as more money from the federal government or more money from their own coffers. MR. DECKER: Newsspeak, in 1984, newsspeak. MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes. So this is the new way and the new math. MR. DECKER: What a bunch of con artists. MR. K. AYLWARD: And we wonder why this Province is in such a state of disrepair. We wonder! People out there are wondering why the unemployment rate is so high. No. 32 R1898

You get a minister coming down from Ottawa getting an agreement which took a year and a half to get and it is a 70/30 arrangement for four years. Than he--says we have a better agreement than we had the last time. Now, it is going to cost us more money to maintain the status quo. As far as I am concerned, I would be ashamed. I would not settle for that.

If that administration had any guts over there or they were fighting for Newfoundland and Labrador, they would be up there saying, 'No, Sir, we want at least the same thing, we want at least a 90 per cent as there was the last time. • We are in worse financial state than we were a few years ago and we settled for a 70/30 financial arrangement. Unreal! That is unreal. Now they are up there thinking about a tax to put on hunting and fishing and everything else and the minister gets up ·and says, 'You know, we have to get public reaction. • MR. DECKER: He says it is a good idea. MR. K. AYLWARD: 'We do not know yet.

I have not met with the officials but then I have, but I am not sure what I have done yet and I do not know what I am going to say.• MR. DECKER: Who is this? MR. K. AYLWARD: This is the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews). ' So , we are not sure if you are going to like this tax or not. We do not know for sure. We are going to gage · public reaction. ' L1899 May 14, 1986 Vol XL How are you going to gage public reaction? 'I do not know yet, we still have ·to find that out.' This is what you call economic policy, this is what you call a government that is planning for the future.

As far as I am concerned it is the most amateur operation that was ever run in the history of Newfoundland and Labrador and it is time that they woke up, shifted around and got out of their seats and started to do something about the problems that we face in this Province. MR. DECKER: They are like dogs in a manger. They cannot do ~ything themselves. MR. K. AYLWARD: Yes, ·that is right my hon. colleague, they cannot do anything themselves at all and it is a sad state of affairs in this Province.

I have to read the resolution which was very, very ably put by the bon. member: "WHEREAS unemployment remains the number one problem affecting the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador; and "WHEREAS it is every day more apparent that the problem requires, as part of a total solution" - as part of a total solution, as part of it "initiatives that are innovative, aggressive and original; and "WHEREAS certain areas of the province are much more deeply afflicted by the problem of unemployment than the province in general; "BE this IT THEREFORE RESOLVED that House business as No. 32 deplores usual government's approach to Rl899

critically high unemployment; and "BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that government, upon identification of those areas of Newfoundland and Labrador most seriously ravaged by unemployment, proceed to the designation of those areas as reduced tax zones, for the purpose of providing extraordinary economic stimulus where it is most needed." MR. DECKER: Now that makes a lot of sense. MR. K. AYLWARD: That ·makes some sense. We are throwing this out as an idea. We do not have all the manpower and all the research ability that is provided to the hon. ministers -~ac.ro.ss the wau_but we will throw out an idea for them.

We will throw out a positive idea. Cape Breton now has a free tax zone over there trying to get businesses to come in, initiated by the federal Tory government. It is an idea. We are not saying it is going to work, we do not know for sure, but we throw it forward as an idea.

"BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT government, as a means of direct stimulus to the provincial economy, and as an encouragement to small business in the creation of jobs, immediately move to a reduction in the provincial sales tax." This, supposedly, will not solve anything, and this cannot be done and is no good, yet it is recommended by the Small Business Association of Newfoundland and Labrador in their report to the government. They would like to see the provincial sales tax lowered. Maybe the small business people on this Island do not know what they L1900 May 14, 1986 Vol XL are talking about either.

That is what it is, I think, obviously by the support of the Premier for the Business !lewfoundland · magazine, which is trying to get the views and the voices of people in business and which is not supported by the provincial government. It is amazing! It is an administration bankrupt of ideas. We put forward initiatives and ideas. You should do more advertising - MR. TULK: For certain things. MR. K. AYLWARD: for certain things. We put forward initiatives and ideas.

We are not saying they are the be-all and the end-all but we are a constructive Opposition which is trying to help solve some of the problems in this Province, which is a lot more than the administration is doing right now. Again, the test of an administration is the unemployment rate and whether or not it goes down, whether or not it goes up . This administration has failed miserably. It has constantly stayed up around 25 per cent, 22 per cent, 23 per cent. The real unemployment rate I would not hazard a guess because it is that high. I would not want to alarm people out there.

But the working man - I would not call it the working person in Newfoundland and Labrador since half of them have not had a job. Our young people especially have not had a job in their lifetime and probably will not see one if this administration stays in power. So how can they say that they have No. 32 R1900

a positive economic development scheme? What is a positive, economic development scheme? I would like to know. Is it an arrangement where we get 90/10 out of 70/30, arrangements that go from 90/10 to 75/25, arrangements that see the EPF cut back, which may see our university shut down by September because they do not have enough money to give their people down there. This is what I call initiatives being taken by this government that are really going to help Newfoundland and Labrador move into the 1990s. I do not know if we are going to reach the 1990s with the way that things are going right now.

This administration does not have a vision as such. They built people's hopes up on the offshore and everybody in this Province, no matter what way they voted, want to see the offshore 'go. We should be up in Ottawa and we should be saying to Ottawa, 'Look, the prices have fallen in oil, we need some help down here.' The bon. the Premier · of Alberta has done that, other premiers have done that to get their offshore going or to get their oil business going, or to get any business going. Yet, our administration says, ..

Well, we are not going to bother ottawa, we are not going to bother them for any help whatsoever. They do not have a shared interest in what we want down here. We have to survive on our own... That to me is a sad, sad way to be, it is a sad way to put Newfoundland's interest forward. It means you are not even putting them forward. It means that we are going to let things go and leave them be. The status quo is not good enough any more. It is not good enough and it is going to be the same way Ll901 May 14, 1986 Vol XL for the next couple of years .

It is too bad that we have to put up with such a lack of ideas, such a lack of initiative by this administration. It is something that the Province is going to have to suffer for for a couple of more years. Hopefully, there is going to be some light at the end of the tunnel because we in the Liberal Opposition are going to continue to put forward some decent ideas. even some wild one so you over there will think about something different instead of the status quo, which is not doing the job right now.

We are going to put policies, we are going to put money figures on them, and you are not going to be able to look at us and say we do not have any ideas any more because we are going to have the ideas. We have some now and we have more coming. When we get ready to take over, we are going to have a plan of action that is going to knock the shoes right off the Tories here in Newfoundland. They are not even going to know what hit them. They are going to say, 'Now how are we going to battle that?' We have good ideas. The Liberals have ideas. As a matter of fact, the Liberals have good ideas.

We are going to battle Ottawa and it does not matter what stripe they are. We do not care what stripe they are in Ottawa but we are going to battle them when they are going to do us in. We are going to battle them when they are going to cut back our education funding. We are going to battle them when they are going to cut back our forestry funding. We are going to battle them whenever they cut back anything that has to do with Newfoundland, FFTs and No. 32 R1901

everything else. We are going to fight for Newfoundland and we are going to be the · fighters for Newfoundland. As the Opposition, we have to do that now. It is unfortunate that this administration has seen fit not to bother. On that note I support this motion put forward by my hon. colleague from Bonavista North (Mr. Lush) . It puts forward a couple of initiatives that should be taken again, that should be looked at, researched and so on. They are good ideas that can be positive for the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador and not this status quo, business as usual, 25 per cent unemployment. Thank you, Mr.

Speaker~ SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. PEACH: Mr. Speaker. KR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Carbonear. MR. PEACH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to make a few brief comments, unless my friend, the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) wants to go. I will give leave to him. DR. COLLINS: No. MR. PEACH: Okay, Mr. Speaker, I will continue. On the resolution, Mr. Speaker, put forth by my friend the member L1902 Kay 14, 1986 Vol XL for Bonavista North (Mr.

Lush) , I noticed in his opening remarks and having listened briefly to the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Power), it is obvious what the Opposition is at~empting to do here with their resolutions. They are trying to . \ p1ck what they feel are politically catchy issues and something that they can alarm the public on. That is very evident in the resolution of the member for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush).

He knows full well, as we all do, that unemployment is a problem that has faced our Province and many part of Canada, indeed the Western World, in this last four or five or six years in· particular. He feels now, under the direction of his leader, of course, that probably this might be an issue that might catch on and might be something that they could alarm the general public with. I notice as well the member for Port de Grave (Mr. Efford) has given up on his issue as it relates to electricity rates in the Province. The member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr.

Flight), last year, with some of the comments and the apparent confusion that exists with the Auditor General, he wants to bring in something with regard to the Auditor General's Act which was discussed when I was on the Public Accounts Committee and, I think, dealt with at that time rather effectively. Then, of course, the member for Twillingate (Mr. w. Carter) is now into the Unemployment Insurance Act in his resolution. The member for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Gilbert), of course, is in on the water and sewag~ systems. I am No. 32 Rl902

sure he has been assisted by the Leader of the NDP Party who has recently been, I understand, sending out thousands of pamphlets to the municipalities in the Province with so called information which was clearly pointed out yesterday by my friend and colleague, the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle) as incorrect information. Then, of course, the railway is another issue that I am sure we all realize the Opposition is going to lose and lose badly on. That is another resolution on the Order Paper by the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan). Mr.

Speaker, the list of motions goes on and on with the member for Port de Grave (Mr. Efford) on the Social Service Department expressing his d~ssatisfaction and so on. However, Mr. Speaker, to look at the resolution at hand. I am sure if the member for Bonavista North (Mr.

Lush) had looked and had read and listened to the initiatives and the plans put forth by this government over the past number of months - well, I guess since being elected last year in April - he would very quickly realize that this government has taken initiatives which do affect and will affect the great unemployment problem we have in this Province. We have taken initiatives, we have been innovative. As well, Mr. Speaker, I am sure the reduction of sales tax is something which all of us here in this bon. House, regardless of what party we belong to, would like to see. I am sure the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) would be very pleased, if the point in time came, to stand in this House and announce that we had completely wiped out provincial sales tax. Ll903 "ay 14, 1986 Vol XL I am sure we all realize, Mr. Speaker, that taxation is part of our democratic system. And although taxes might not be at a stage which we think acceptable-­ and which the public and the consumer in the Province would like to see lowered, I am sure we all realize at this point in time they are at a stage where they have to be. ·· Mr.

Speaker, in looking over the Throne Speech for 1986 , which was delivered in this House a number of months ago, many of the issues that the member for Bonavista North raises in his resolution are addressed very clearly in the Throne Speech. Mr. Speaker, I notice that ~he member for Bonavista North seems to, of recent days, have become a little bit naughtier than his usual · self, for some reason . I sort of gave him a little more credit up to a few days ago, because he always performs very well in the House, he is a person you can always count on to put forth something very positive.

But these last few days he has gotten into some nasty pills, because he has been very, very nasty and has not been his usual self. MR. BUTT: That is right. MR. PEACH: I do not know the reason for that, but I hope he gets out of it when he gets out to his Summer home in Terra Nova. I hope that the fresh air will do him good and that it will not be taxed, and that when he breathes it he will be revived and come back to the House in the Fall with a much better attitude. SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. 32 Rl903

Hear, hear! MR. PEACH: Mr. Speaker, the Throne Speech addressed very clearly, and I refer bon. members to page 12, the fact that government is conunitted to the development of a strong, vibrant, small business sector, which was referred to by the member for Bonavista North. It goes on, Mr. Speaker, and I am sure I am allowed to quote from the Throne Speech, 'While the contribution to the provincial economy by this sector is already very significant, there remains substantial opportunity for expansion.' A clear indication, Mr.

Speaker, that the government realizes that opportunity for small business is out there, and the opportunity has to be expanded upon. 'In recognition of this, our government has entered into negotiations with the federal government to establish a joint agreement on initiatives for industrial and small business development.' And it goes on to say, Mr. Speaker, 'Through some changes in our own Loans programmes at the provincial level, financial assistance is offered. ' And the Opposition was quite upset some time ago, if members will recall, by what they defined as rural Newfoundland.

The Minister of Rural Agriculture and Northern Development (Mr. R. Aylward) was under attack in this House one day because the government was providing small business incentive loans to places such as Gander, which the opposition maintained were not rural. Some business entrepreneur in Gander decided that he should go down the Gander Bay road and start Ll904 May 14, 1986 Vol XL up some kind of a small business that would employ eight or ten people, and it was questionable if this government should provide financial assistance. Now, Mr.

Speaker, it should be pointed out very clearly that in the past Budget, delivered by the Minister of Finance in this House a month or_ so ago, it was clearly indicated that under the Department of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development our farm loans and our rural development authority loans have been increased from $25,000 up to $50, 000. That is a doubling, Mr. Speaker, of the amount of funding that· is available.

All bon. members, I am sure, realize and know that those loans are combinations of loans, grants, depending__ on the type of business, so that is a clear indication of our conunitment to help small business in this Province. Now, Mr. Speaker, the issue of jobs: It is always difficult to see where some members of the Opposition are coming from. They are not sure if they want to support a penitentiary for Buchans or for Windsor. I am sure the member for Windsor - Buchans is not at all concerned about the jobs that that is going to create. MR. FLIGHT: It must have wheels on it. MR.

PEACH: That is probably the way the member would want it, on wheels, so that when an election comes he can get somebody to wheel it back and forth from Windsor to Buchans. That is the only way he is going to be elected again. He should come out with his mayor, Mayor Power from Buchans, who was sitting in this bon House a week ago and the member for Windsor - No. 32 R1904

Buchans did not have the courtesy to ask the Speaker to recognize the mayor of such a town. He would not stand behind the Mayor of Buchans and support the penitentiary going in a town such as Buchans. I am not sure where the Opposition stands with regard to the creation of jobs. We also indicated in the Throne Speech that we had a great concern and were actively promoting, · through negotiations with the federal goverrunent, that Goose Bay be designated as a NATO site, a NATO tracker, fighter, weapons training center. This in itself, Mr. Speaker, is a job creation initiative taken by this goverrunent.

It would involve a capital expenditure of $2 billion, and it would support approximately 3,000 permanent and transient military personnel. -It would have an annual operating budget of about $300 million, and the project itself, in the construction stage, would create 500 to 1,000 permanent jobs. Mr. Speaker, that is an initiative to create jobs. So the member for Bonavista North is all wet behind the ears when he puts a resolution such as this forward in the House, knowing full well that this goverrunent, Mr.

Speaker, which I am proud to be a member of , has already taken the initiatives that he would, I guess, like to see taken. There is some question, as well, as to how long the bon. member for Bonavista North is going to stay on that side of the House. There have been a lot of rumblings lately that he is not very happy with the leadership of his party at all. He did not show up at the meeting last night. I understood he was not there. MR. TULK: What meeting? L1905 May 14, 1986 Vol XL _ MR. PEACH: The one which your leader attended with Mr. March. MR. FLIGHT: He at least showed up. MR.

PEACH: If he showed up, I was not there so I take the member's word for it. The member for Bonavista North (Mr. Lush) normally catches the media. MR. TULK: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have to remind the han. gentleman that he usually speaks, as he is doing now, in ignorance. The member · for Bonavista North was certainly at that meeting. You should have heard him, Mr.

Speaker, correct some wrong information that a person from the NDP Party, I think, put out, that the Trade Union Movement was led to trust the goverrunent of this Province. The member for Bonavista North pointed out how he, in 1982, knew the stripes of this goverrunent in the same way as he knows them now, you cannot trust them. MR. PEACH: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the bon. the member for Carbonear. MR. PEACH: There is no point of order. I can continue. MR. SPEAKER: No. 32 R1905

There is no point of order. The hon. member provided some information. MR. PEACH: Mr. Speaker, I will accept the comments from my friend from Fo~o. The member for Bonavista North was at the meetin~. Now we realize there were three there. MR. FLIGHT: Five. MR. SPEAKER: Order. please! MR. PEACH: Five! Oh, oh! That makes the matter worse. There were five members there. four from the official Opposition and the member for the NDP. MR. TULK: We do not count him. MR. PEACH: · Oh. you do not count him. Five of your own. MR. TULK: Six. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. PEACH: Six. There were six members, Mr.

Speaker, alon~ with the Mr. March at his meetin~ last ni~ht which drew only 300 people. MR. HEARN: Two hundred and forty-six. MR. PEACH: Two hundred and forty-six my friend, the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn). informs me. Now. Mr. Speaker. that is an utter dis~race, if that is all the members could attract. L1906 Hay 14, 1986 Vol XL - ---· MR. TULI<: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The bon. the member for Fo~o on a point of order. MR. TULK: The bon. ~entleman is wrong a~ain. Let me say to him that there were none of the Tory members there. The Liberal Party was well represented.

He also made the point - I know he will be interested in hearing this - that the NDP Party Leader was there. No, he did not show up. He was not there. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is no point of order. The bon. member provided some more information. MR. PEACH: The member is just interrupting the good speech I am ~ivin~. It is very strange. I wonder what the Liberals were doing there? If the Leader of the NDP was not there, what was the Liberal Party doing there? I am sure they must have been invited, but if six of them showed up, Mr. Speaker, and they drew 246 people, I say shame! MR.

FLIGHT: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A point of order, the bon. the member for Windsor - Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Would the member care to take this opportunity to indicate to the House whether he will be at the No. 32 R1906

next --llleeting NAPE calls to hear the views of the MHAs who serve his district? DR. COLLINS: To that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the bon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: The bon. member is giving a tremendous speech. It obviously­ has the Opposition in an uproar over there. He has touched a nerve. They are jumping to their feet, interrupting him with points of order time and time again. He is hitting them with body blows. They are writhing in the aisles. I mean, they cannot stand the strain and the stress, so they have to keep interrupting him. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

There is no point of order. The bon. member is looking for information. The bon. the member for Carbonear. MR. PEACH: Thank you, Kr. Speaker. To continue, it is very sad to realize that the member for Bonavista North could not read what was in the Throne Speech. That would have pointed out and clearly indicated to him many of the initiatives that this government has taken. Now, Kr. Speaker, to talk about employment and unemployment. I am sure the member for Bonavista North (Kr. Lush) must realize that apart from being announced again in the Throne Speech - MR. FLIGHT: L1907 Kay 14, 1986 Vol XL Will you be there?

MR. PEACH: I attend all functions held in my district when time permits~ and that is most of the time. Usually, I attend three functions a night on a weekend. It was announced in the Throne Speech that there would be established a Royal Commission on Employment and Unemployment. Now, the member for Bonavista North is all upset about the unemployment problems in this Province. He deplores government's approach to looking at the problem of employment and unemployment. Kr. Speaker, that matter has been dealt with very carefully. To continue on, Kr.

Speaker, with the matter of job creation, we have -indicated clearly through our negotiations with our federal counterparts that we have had dollars come into Province; the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Sinuns) negotiated some tremendous forestry agreements, negotiated along with the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs (Mr. Ottenheimer) I am sure, the paper modernization programme for the two paper producing cities in our Province. If that is not creating jobs, Kr.

Speaker, I do not know what is, the great millions of dollars of modernization that has gone into the Kruger operation in Corner Brook. This government, Mr. Speaker, went forth and saved the city of Corner Brook - that was creating jobs. Abitibi-Price in Grand Falls, which the minister very capably represents, I have had the opportunity of meeting one of the vice-presidents of Abitibi-Price, Mr. Devine, on several occasions, having toured throughout their No. 32 Rl907

facilities outside this Province as well. They, Mr. Speaker, with the tremendous amount of pressure that the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands keeps on a company such as Abitibi-Price, have gone into a great modernization programme at their facility in Grand Falls.

That will not only put a better newsprint and a better quality of paper on the world market but in --doing so it will create jobs in the modernization part, and it will ensure that Grand Falls and Corner Brook, with their modernization plan, with the improvements to their machinery, will be viable and will create jobs in this Province for many, many years down the road. MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member has one minute left to conclude his remarks. MR. PEACH: My time is just about up, and I am doing such a great job, that I am sure my colleagues here would want me to continue. I know, Mr.

Speaker, that members opposite want to get up and support the resolution put forth by the member for Bonavista North, but I have to disappoint them now and say that I cannot support the resolution as it stands here, because he has said nothing in it that is constructive. All he has done is try to attempt to get something that will be a great political football for him to kick around this Province for the next month or so. I am sure they are all hoping that some day they will be on this side of the House and we will be on the other, but, Mr.

Speaker, I will be around for a long representing the people of Carbonear and sitting on this side of the House. And I am sure that after the next election the number Ll908 May 14, 1986 Vol XL of members that the Liberal Opposition will have .will probably be less than what the NDP have right now. Tha