THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 8:00 o•clock. Wednesday, Aprill0th,l963 MR. CHAffiMAN: Department VI, Item .15 MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, on Item 15: during the course of the last provincial elec - tion my honourable friend and neighbour, the Minister of Education,_made certain announcements · · regarding water control on the Lake Dauphin -- and I don't quite know how that falls in his department-- but I wonder if the Minister of Agriculture could tell me now, what is the pro­ posal for water control on Lake Dauphin: what the proposal is for the Mossy River Dam; what the contribution of .the Provincial Government is; what level they intend to keep the lake at? MR. HUTTON: The proposal is to build a dam.

I don't know what the level is offhand and I'd like to draw the attention of the committee to the fact that I've been talking and answering questions for 18 hours and 45 minutes, and I think if we haven •t learned anything in that time, we aren't likely -to learn very much if we continue very much longer. MR. MOLGAT: ...••• Mr. Chairman, I don't know. The Minister may think this is a facetious question -- it isn't.

The question of what level the lake will be kept at is most impor­ tant because it affects quite a lot of the agriculture around that lake, and there have been a number of complaints in the past about the lake level, the same way as there have been about Lake Manitoba. I'm interested in knowing where the Provincial Government -- what their share is in this particular project; whether they will be responsible for the lake level; what level they intend to keep it at. MR. HUTTON: The dam will be built at 100 percent cost to the Federal Government as a PFRA project.

The level of the lake is established on consultation with a group comprised of representatives of the farmers, recreation interests and others in the area served by Lake Dauphin, MR . CHAmMAN: Item 15 --passed. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, on the matter of the Greater Winnipeg floodway: The Min­ ister indicated this afternoon that any recreational projects would be under the Minister of Mines. I'd just like to clarify some items with him, however. Jt is definitely the intention to have no water in the floodway except when it is in actual use as a flood diversion. Is this cor­ rect? MR. HUTTON: That's right. MR.

MOLGAT: Secondly, I wonder if the Minister could explain to the committee, Mr. Chairman, exactly what protection will be afforded to those areas that are outside of the.main dyke system in Winnipeg. For example, I think. portions of Scotia Street; portions of Kingston Crescent; portions of Victoria Crescent. Will those areas be protected by the building of the floodway or not? MR. HUTTON: Yes. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, this is different from the answer the Minister gave last year, because last year he indicated that the floodway would not be put into operation until there was danger to the main dyke system, and not to the secondary areas. Has he changed his mind since then? MR. HUTTON: I've changed my mind. The floodway comes into operation once there is in excess of 30,000 cubic feet per second flowing in the river. MR. MOLGA T: What relationship has this flow to the secondary dyke system and the main dyke system?

In other words, what flow will the secondary dyke system contain and what flow will the main dyke system ? MR. HUTTON: The main dyke system contains 80,000 cubic feet per .second. MR . MOLGAT: And the secondary? MR. HUTTON: Somewhat less than that. I can•t recall. MR. CHAffiMAN: Item 15 passed. Item 16 --pass. MR. SCHREYER: I'm waiting for 17, Mr. Chairman, you seem to be moving so quickly-­ (interjection) -- Is this 17 -- you:•re calling 17? MR. CHAffiMAN: Item 17. MR. SCHREYER: On 17, Mr.

Chairman, the Minister, I'm sure, is aware that in the acquisition of land for the floodway the purchasing committee has bought up property on the east April lOth, 1963 Page 1121

(Mr. Schreyer cont 'd) .••.•• • side of the floodway -- this is pertaining to the river lots north of Bird•s Hill-- and in many cases as I say, they have bought up land east ofthe floodway even though it's not required for the floodway itself.

Now some people, however, have chosen not to sell and that presents no problem, as far as I understand it, but these people who have cho­ sen not to sell, and who have arable land east of the floodway, themselves living west of the floodway, now are coming up to the problem of getting access to their property which they'Ve retained east of the floodway and in many cases the only reason that they have signed off, re­ leased claim to the land, is because they were given to understand that ac()ess would be pro­ vided, or would be virtually guaranteed them.

They find now, however, that they have to make some sort of arrangement for the crossing of private property, and the Minister can appreciate this is not a very desirable situation. Now it's true that in the future it is likely there will be a road on the east side, PTH 59 will be on the east side, it's understood -- and that this will afford public access to their property. But in the meantime, what are they to do?

It would seem that the department should make some sort of provision whereby these people can be guaranteed that they may utilize the extreme eastern strip of the floodway property for the next year at least so that they can get on to their cultivated land on the east side. MR. SHOEMAKER: We really didn't pass 16, did we? I mean someone said "Pass", I !mow, but we didn't have the opportunity to speak on it. And on 16, I .••.. MR. CHAffiMAN: We passed that. It's on 17 now, and likely most of your argument can come in under 17. MR.

SHOEMAKER: Well, all right, they can accept it under 17 if they like but it refers to 16. Because we didn't have an opportunity on this side of the House to discuss this item. Someone on the opposite benches said 11Pass 11• It concerns a third of a million dollars and I think it deserves some consideration here. Now a recent issue of the Daily Graphic -- the Portage Daily Graphic -- Thursday, April 4th, under the heading "Delta Marshland in new ARDA Project", and it says the Delta marsh­ land is one of nine, one of nine projects under ARDA. I wonder what the other eight are.

I would like the Honourable Minister to tell us what the nine projects are. And then another in­ teresting point in this paper is that the announcement -- 11it was announced today that this will be one of nine projects under ARDA. Word on the program was received by S. J. Enns, Mem­ ber in the last House"-- and incidentally, member in the next one -- 11for Portage-N eepawa, in a release from the Agricultural Minister Alvin Hamilton. " Now, I would like to ask this question, Mr. Chairman, who decides on these various projects?

Is it the Federal Govern­ ment or is it this government that decides on any project under ARDA. Surely this government has something to do with the various projects under ARDA and shouldn't the announcements come from this government, Mr. Chairman? I would like to !mow what are the nine projects under .• .••• MR. HUTTON: Well this government made an announcement, and this Minister made an announcement right in this House in regard to ARDA and the projects that were provided for in the agreements that were signed.

I made them before the Orders of the Day and I think I cov­ ered the situation again during the estimates. They cover several water control projects. The Delta project is a land acquisition project, I believe. 1'11 tell you insofar as this -- speaking to this authorization, they cover Norquay Floodway, Hespeler Floodway, Grassmere Drain, Oak Lake and Bottle Creek. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Chairman, is that nine? Did he read nine off there? He was read­ ing them pretty rapidly and I didn't !mow whether he read nine off. This

article refers to nine. MR. HUTTON: There aren't included in this authorization. -- (Interjection)- - There aren't nine included in this authorization but if you look back through the estimates you will see that there are ARDA contributions to other than water control works. MR. SHOEMAKER: Well it is a fact then that there are nine in total though? -- (Interjection) -- That •s fine. There are five to be announced, I take it then, Mr. Chairman -- or four or five yet to be announced.

I am pleased to note also from the Neepawa Press this time that the Provincial Co-ordin­ ator a�tended a meeting of NADCO in Neepawa recently and it says, and I quote, 11The problem of developing a resort at the PFRA dam was discussed at the meeting. It was mentioned that the Provincial Government is re-e xamining its policy in giving assistance to such projects. 11 Page 1122 April lOth, 1963

(Mr.

Shoemaker cont•d) •.•••• And further, 11NADCO is to send a letter to the Department of Mines and Natural Resources expressing their interest . in the project and enquiring for in­ formation as to the government position. 11 Now I know that in dealing with the Department of Mines and Natural Resources some ten days or' two weeks ago that the Minister of Mines and Natural Resources indicated that resort areas around dams of this nature had to be -- the Min­ ister of Education had to consider them, to see whether they would fit in with the over-all pro­ gram. 'fhe Provincial Co-ordinator has indicated that the government is re-examining its position in this regard.

I wonder if it has re-examined its position and if so, what it is. MR. HUTTON: ......•• Minister isn•t here. MR . SCHREYER: On the question which I asked, I haven't received a reply and the Min­ ister's silence, I take it, means either that he is not familiar with the situation or (2) he doesn't think it's importaht enough. If it's the latter I just point out to him that it•s true it might only involve perhaps a dozen or so property owners affected by the floodway, but the important point is that they are being put at very much of a disadvantage -- inconvenienced.

Secondly, it would seem to indicate lack of good faith on the part of those who were undertaking the purchas­ ing for the government. I say, it would seem to, because as I am given to understand these people were told that if they had arable land on the other side and they chose to retain it they would not have to worry about the problem of having access to it. They would be inconvenienced as to the distance they would have to go to get around to the other side, but that there would be public access to their property.

Now the way it seems to be working out the matter of highway 59 being on the east side is still not a hard and fast sort of thing; it hasn't been finalized; so for this one year coming up, 1963, some there are already thinking of having to make some sort of private arrangements with other people -- property owners there -- and surely that•s not desirable, and probably not even possible.

So I would ask the Minister once again if they intend to make good this understanding and provide -- in the absence of anything else -- pro­ vide at least some access on the extreme east edge of the floodway property that's been bought. MR . HUTTON: Mr. Chairman, I think the reason I didn't answer that is the answer is self­ evident, that certainly we will provide access across the right-of-way for these people until such time as the highway is developed. MR . SCHREYER: ..... second question pertaining to the floodway.

The Minister knows that I filed an Order for Return enquiring as to the acreage and price paid per acre for certain selected properties in the Gonor-Narol district and because the nature of the information was quite involved I was given the opportunity to go down to the purchasing committee office and avail myself of some of the information and I might say that I was literally overwhelmed with information -- kindness and information -- but I can•t say that I received all the information that I had been seeking.

Apparently it is policy of the government, even now, to hold back in­ formation as to the price paid for certain factors, for example, it's possible to find out the price paid per acre, but not the amount paid for injurious affection, forcible taking and other miscellaneous considerations, and unless one knows that as well, it's of course impossible to determine how much in fact the government has expended for certain parcels of land. I know I don •t have much of an argument just yet because the government is still negotiating or the committee is still negotiating for certain parcels whose owners are holding out.

So perhaps they would be jeopardizing their negotiating position if they were to reveal this information. But my question is this: I assume by next year this time, the property will have been bought -­ settled -- settlement would have been reached. At that time will it be possible to obtain the fullest information as to the amount paid for various parcels of land, and will it appear in Public Accounts? It should appear in public accounts, I would assume, but I think we should be informed now whether all this will appear in Public Accounts next year. MR .

HUTTON: I'm sorry the honourable member did not speak to me about the informa­ tion that apparently was not given to him. I'll see what I can do about it. I think as a member of the House he should be entitled to know about it at least on a confidential basis. MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, if I might just clear this up -- as I say I was certainly given all the information one could imagine with the exception of that one particular aspect of it and I couldn •t very well insist, it seemed to be a matter of government policy. I am very much thankful to the Minister for that undertaking.

There's still this other question which I want to put. If the Minister is not in a position to answer ,perhaps the House leader is, I don•t April lOth , 1963 Page 1123

(Mr. Schreyer cont'd) •••••• know, or any expert here on procedure, but will this information appear in Public Accounts sometime hence. MR . HUTTON: Well the total amounts will appear; I don't know whether the individual amounts will appear. MR . MARK G. SMERCHANSKI (Burrows): Mr. Chairman, I would like to first of all cor­ rect a statement in my remarks last night on page 1079 in that the Hansard has it "a false zone" and I refer to a 11fault zone" and this makes quite a difference.

I'd like to ask the Honourable Minister of Agriculture, in reference to the proposed flood­ way, and in particular again, in reference to the Bird1s Hill area, where the depth of the channel-way will be something like 65 feet and this channel-way will then drain all the excess water that has been accumulated in the gravel ridges in the Bird1s Hill area and this will de­ stroy the reservoir of water that has been retained in that particular gravel bed. Now, this will definitely have an effect on well water in that area.

Secondly, as you know the clay mantle in the Winnipeg area has been in more or less of a constant state of equilibrium, in that although we may have our dry conditions and wet conditions and you get swelli ng and contraction, you get the cracking and heating of foundations and so forth, but this is usually regarded as a known quantity while calculating the necessary conditions for foundation work.

Now, with the floodway going through and again at this depth, you •re going to interfere with the underground water level andyou are going to have a certain amount of seeping and bleeding from this mantle clay into the floodway. I appreciate what was said yesterday that this matter is under study but this is definitely going to interfere with underground water level and this is going to throw quite a dis­ ruption into the characteristics of foundations in the Greater Winnipeg and in the Winnipeg area.

Now, I again say that I am very much concerned in the statement that the Honourable Ministe.r made last night, 11that there is reason to be concerned about the supply and availability of underground water in this area". Now, I would like to ask the Honourable Minister, is he preparing us on the basis that we •re headed for trouble with our underground water because of the floodway and that we will be receiving the more drastic news at some later date? I'd apprec­ iate if he would give us a little more explanation on that phase of it. MR .

HUTTON: I refer the honourable gentleman to the Director of Water Control and Conservation and the Chief Engineer of that branch. I think that they are more competent to deal with his technical question that I am. However, the answer to the latter part of his question is 1'no11• MR. CHAIRMAN: Item 17 passed. MR . SMERCHANSKI: Mr. Chairman, in reference to the recreational facilities in the floodway, this is a bit of a puzzle to me because, as I understand it, this channel is going to have a certain amount of retained moisture or water coming into it in the springtime.

Now, it is inconceivable that it'll be completely dry or drained of all water. Now if any recreational facilities are going to be made on this, what about the problem of pollution?

We have unfortun­ ately, our University of Manitoba, which is dumping raw sewage at a terrific rate into the headwaters of the Red River above the city; we have all the smaller towns dumping their raw sewage into the river, and if you're going to have any amount of water in this floodway I think that some very definite study should be undertaken to make sure we do away with such things as mosquitoes --because this is going to be a terrific area for mosquitoes.

It•s going to be an area where you have isolated pools in which you'll have a tremendous growth of algae, which will increase the smell along that floodway, and of course it'll be a wonderful attraction for youngsters to play in the mud. But I'm not saying that these are bad thirigs about the floodway, but these are the things I think that should be considered, and these are the things that should be undertaken. I don1t know what the answer to this is.

Maybe instead of leaving the channel exposed to the normal mud conditions maybe these should be gravelled in places, so that when­ ever you have any pools these could be attended to, cleaned out individually, and could possibly be used as recreational facilities. I don't know; but I just bring some of these matters up, because I think that this is something that should get some very close attention before the plans of the floodway go much further. MR . HUTTON: Well, I think, Mr. Chairman, that the engineers have anticipated some of the thb:igs that are troubling the Honourable Member for Burrows.

The channel is going to be so constructed that there will be a drainage channel in the bottom which will of course tend to Page 1124 April loth, 1963 I

(Mr. Hutton cont•d) ....• drain off any excess water; there will be a minimum of pooling. I'd also point out that there's no water going into the floodway until you reach a minimum flow of 30 , 000 cubic feet per second in the river. I think it•s true to say that your bed load is much heavier near the bottom of the channel of the river than it is in that area flow which will be diverted into the Red River diversion.

And, of course, even without considering the recreation­ al aspects, from the very standpoint of maintenance of the channel itself, the engineers have designed this structure to keep silting to a minimum, to keep pollution at a minimum. As I say, .the channel will be drained by a drain in the bottom. There is not going to be any water flowing in it through the summer at times when the pollution problem becomes significant. I haven•t any particular visions of children paddling around in the bottom of the Red River di­ version as a form of recreation.

No doubt all children like to get into water, and maybe this will happen, but I don.•t think that it will be organized recreation. As a matter of fact, I think that insofar as water sports or water recreation is concerned that there is little hope that this sort of thing can be developed with the Red River diversion. On the other hand, it can be de­ veloped in many other aspects.

For one thing, the very rehabilitation of the right-of-way will provide an opportunity to plan park areas and so forth, and although this isn't something that•s going to take place overnight, in time it can be a very attractive area and offer possibilities for development as a recreation. area. MR . SMERCHANSKI: Thank you.

There's one other item I'd like to ask and that is, does the department have any plans to try and rectify the bank erosion on the present Red River in the area that the proposed floodway is going through; and another thing is, I understand that in some of the original test pits that there was a· certain amount of failing of the banks.

Are there any provisions to stabilize banks beyond the fact that they'll just be graded back or will some special processes be used to stabilize the banks; and if so is this process likely to be carried into the program of the present banks on our present Red River that are in very bad condition as far as erosion is concerned? MR . HUTTON: I was not aware, Mr. Chairman, of any bank failure in the test pits except that which was prompted by excavation purposely to find out what the stability of the banks would be.

That is to say, they construc ted one bank according to design and they deliberately excavated to create bank failure in other cases. Now, Dr. Casagrande, who is an outstanding soils mechanics scientist, was the consultant on the design of the channel and he was satisfiAd that the design that they have agreed to use of six to one slopes and nine to one at the bridge crossings is adequate to safeguard the stability of the banks of the channel itself. In respect to the river bank slippage from St.

Norbert through to the Locks on the river itself, we have no plans at the present time to undertake any systematic program to stabilize or shore up these banks. There are really only two alternatives of a permanent nature, of a proven nature, ar..d one of them is to slope off your banks at a six to one ratio which destroys all the property that it's intended to protect, or necessitates its destruction; the other is to build retaining walls.

I shouldn •t have to tell the Honourable Member for Burrows about the problems of foundation in this area and the fact that if you're going to put in concrete retain­ ing walls you would ile facing an extremely costly proposition -- one that has been estimated to cost something like $5 milli<m a mile. Well on a thirty mile stretch of river you can see that this would be a tremendous undertaking. I think that the long term answer here is to dis­ courage people from developing river bank property.

Unfortunately we have permitted it to go too far even today but it's never too late to start and we should discourage people from de­ veloping this property, because unsuspecting people coming from other jurisdictions with no knowledge of the river bank situation through Greater Winnipeg fall easy prey to promoters of these real estate properties. There have been expe;riments carried out using rock at the toe of the bank to try and cut down on this slippage. They haven •t been too effective. I had a call from a lady here not too long ago whose property had been protected in this fashion and to not much avail.

They were continuing to lose their property. I haven't had any reports. We sent the engineers out to have a look at it. Frankly it's a tremendous undertaking to try and do anything with this situation, one that I don •t believe government, either at the municipal or provincial level, .is prepared to undertake at this time. And if you add to the Red River the necessity for carrying out the same kind of a program on the Assiniboine, you•re talking about a prodigious undertaking. · April lOth, 1963 Page 1125

MR . SMERCHANSKI: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to close off on the matter of bank erosion in that I fully appreciate the long term planning but !"also think that it is rather unfair to the present property owners along the banks of the Red River to not have something done to help them out at least in part with their problem.

I would make a suggestion that if the Honourable Minister could, I know we have some funds available through ARDA -- I don't know how ARDA might apply in this manner -- and the fact that it is a federal government responsibility, that is, our Red River is, and to a large extent, possibly more than half-- I don't know what the percentage division is -- but I do think that we should not abandon the property owners along this river because there is a slippage of banks on this river throughout the entire Winnipeg area and there are a lot of these property owners that should be given some type of encourage­ ment or some help or some type of -- for instance there is a Pile Foundation Company Limited in Fort Garry that is doing a great deal of this work and it is piling, and this is of course a very expensive way of stabilizing the bank.

But I do think that work should be undertaken and I think that this is equally as important to the property owners along the river as possibly the entire diversion of the Red River floodway and I would leave it with the Honourable Minister that something should be done to give some type of assistance and some type of engineering know-how to the property owners.

I think that some detailed list of methods of construction could be drawn up and given to the -- make these available to the property owners so that if they care to spend their own money they would know at least how to tackle this problem, be­ cause it's a very serious problem and it's a very important problem and there isn't a single resident that lives along the Red River from Fort Garry right up into West Kildonan that doesn't suffer from bank erosion. MR . DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, I was listening to the Honourable Minister with much interest when he was expressing concern of the people developing the area around the dyke, aroimd the floodway. I don't know if this is a personal thought that he has or has this been dis­ cussed-- he's talking about worrying about the promoters who might fleece the people. Well I think that he should get together with his Leader if they're going to give the information to the public because in an

article in the Tribune of October 15th, 1962, there's a paragraph here· saying 11the Premier himself, according to one high ranking civil servant, has suggested they build high class homes on the dyke, 11 so I think that they should get together. I don 1t know if everybody is expressing his own opinion; I think that the government should have a policy be­ cause sometimes the people that read these articles believe them. I think we've had an ex­ ample on civil defence on somebody trying to build a shelter in the past and I hope that this is not going to be repeated here.

And while we 1re talking about this, the Honourable Member from . Burrows spoke about the recreational potential of the floodw:ay. I.think the Honourable the Leader of the NDP also spoke about this. Honourable Waiter Dinsdale, in his speech of October 6th, 1962, talked about the recreational potential of the floodway. It's certainly worth mention­ ing. The

article in the newspaper apparently would suggest the people·are very much concerned and interested in this; in fact they list all kinds of things here that seem to be acceptable or -­ there's horse racing in the floodway, they're talking about gocarts and cars and talking about baseball fields. I wonder-- the Minister didn't say too much about recreational facilities -- he did however say that the engineers have been thinking about that.

We have the Minister of In­ dustry and Commerce that's very much interested in that; we have also the Minister of Welfare I think who is in charge of the program for recreation and physical education and minor sports anyway. It seems to me that these Ministers of the Cabinet must have discussed this at some time or other and I wonder if the Honourable Minister could give us a little more information on this recreational potential of the floodway because it's not -- he did mention that this will not be built in one day -- we understand that, but you have to plan or you •re repeating a lot of things.

We have something new now coming in on this -- it just started last year --under the Depart­ ment of Welfare -- for minor sports. We know that a lot of the schools have been talking about no place to play football and I imagine that the -- not the Polo Park -- the Assiniboine Downs, are interested to know if they'll have competition in horse racing and I think that we 're interested to know if there •ll be grass on the bottom or concrete or just swimming pools; I don •t know, but I wonder if the Honourable Minister would give us a little bit on this. MR .

HUTTON: The first thing I must do is correct the Honourable Member for St. Boniface. Page 1126 April loth, 1963

(Mr. Hutton cont •d) . • . . • • • The Premier of Manitoba and the Minister of Agriculture don't have to get together. The Member for st. Boniface had better get together with the Honourable Member for Burrows because the Honourable Member for Burrows was talking about the stab­ ility of the river banks along the Red River and the Assiniboine, and the Honourable Member for St. Boniface is talking about the dyke --not the dyke, but the dump that•s associated with the --or the spoil area which will be created through the excavation of the Red River diver­ sion channel.

The spoil area will be something upwards of a quarter of a mi.le wide, which leave.s some room for development without endangering the stability of the slopes of the chan­ nel. However, we have a situation here within the built up area where we are within less than 200 feet of the river banks --so we were talking about different propositions altogether. I can •t tell the Honourable Member for St.

Boniface about --enlarge about the potential for rec­ reation on the floodway except to point out to him that the floodway is 30 miles long and the right-of-way property is about 4, 80 0 feet wide --three quarters of a mile wide --in places wider. It goes through the Bird's Hill area. It most certainly should while being constructed lend itself to being shaped in such a way that it will be attractive once it's been grassed down --and it will all be grassed down, the channel itself and the spoil area.

The possibilities for its development are under consideration by the Department of Mines and Natural Resources at the present time and when they have had an opportunity ,to give this matter some serious con­ sideration we will be able to talk about this at another session. This is only 1963. The flood­ way is not scheduled to be in operation until the ·spring of 1968, and that is if everything goes the·way we hope it ·will go. If we run into very much bad weather or weather that•s adverse to .construction conditions, it won•t be done. But we are aiming at having it in operation by the spring of 1968.

Now this doesn't mean that it will be grassed down by 1968; it doesn't mean that it.will be all polished up. This means that it will be ready to protect the people of Winni­ peg we trust by the spring of 1968. So we •ve got a long way to go and I think that it would be rather foolish of me at this time to go way out on a limb and suggest to the honourable members just what the developments may be .. But we are going to do our best to develop this aspect of the· ........ MR.DESJARDINS: Mr.

Chairman, I didn't expect the Minister to go into detail; I didn't· want him to tell me the date of the opening season of the race track out there, but I think that . ,-- 1 don •t think he should wait until 1968 to start thinking about it. They are talking about the Pan American Games. They'll have to build certain things. We have a department now that.is interested in recreational and amateur sports. It seems to me that they should be looking· into that. That•s all I want. Any question that I ask usually the answer we're given is 11Well such and such a department is looking into that" and that•s finished.

Well I•d be satisfied with this answer at this time. But it seems to me it shouldn't only be Mines and Natural Resources. I think that there should be a little more co-operation. I think that the Minister of Welfare if he•s interested' in this minor sports, and so on --I think he should come into that. They've been waiting for a lot of recreational facilities in this area for a long time and it might be that they•ll feel it will be much more economical, much more feasible, to wait and use the flood­ way for certain areas. I certainly didn't expect to have a detailed plan or a chart of a thing like that.

I understand that it's not going to be done this soon; but the planning usually starts before it's done, not after. They might say, 110h well, this should have been wider there; this should have been built at this place •... " I think that they should plan now and I think that whoever is concerned, especially the Minister of Welfare should definitely be interested if he has this program in view. I don1t think that it would be fair that when we•re asked to form the government in about four years we •ll have to start all over. I think that something should be done now. · A MEMBER: Mr.

Chairman, when the members of the Cabinet need a referee we 1ll know where to go. MR . HILLHOUSE: Mr. Chairman, I understand that Dr. Casagrande made certain investi­ gations on the Red and the Assiniboine respecting erosion and slippage, and that as a result of these investigations he submitted certain answers to certain ques.tions that were asked him by W. D. Hurst, the City Engineer. I also understand, too, that these answers.were subject to modificatio;n depending upon an investigation which was being made by your Water Control and Conservation Branch in conjunction with officials of the PFRS. Is that right?

That was my April lOth, 1963 Page 1127

(Mr. Hillhouse cont1d) ••••• understanding, that his answers were subject to any modification as a result of fuller information that would be obtained by a study being conducted by your Water Control and Conservation Branch and the PFRS officials. That is not so. MR . HUTTON: Well there was ••..• Are you finished? MR . HILLHOUSE: No. What I wanted to know was whether that detailed investigation was made by the Water Control and Conservation Branch of the Province along with officials of the PFRS? . MR . HUTTON: PFRA? MR . HILLHOUSE: Yes • . MR . HUTTON: No.

As I recall his recommendations were modified a little somewhat when the members of the Rivers and Streams Authority tried, or attempted to act upon his recommendations. In attempting to act upon his recommendations they tried to arrive at some­ thing that was uniform and would be acceptable throughout the designated area. As I recall it, there was some modification that they didn't-- when they requested the amendment in the legislation extending the designated area from 150 feet to 350. As I recall, Dr. Casagrande didn •t recommend exactly 350, feet.

I can •t recall just exactly what his recommendation was at that time. The 350 feet was a compromise or a variation of his recommendation which the members of the Rivers and Streams Authority thought would work in this area. MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, before the Minister concludes his estimates, I understand he told the House this afternoon that this supplement he •s sending around the House is going to be distributed to all the weekly newspapers. Is this correct? Could he tell us how many copies were printed and what is the cost to the government to print these? MR .

HUTTON: I don't know exactly the number of copies that were printed. There were sufficient copies printed to cover the weekly newspapers across Manitoba. To the best of my :knowledge the cost of printing was $3, 400. 00. The work was done in conjunction -- or the department in conjunction with the Red River Valley Echo prepared the form. MR . CHAffiMAN: Item 17 passed. MR .. JOHN P. TANCHAK (Emerson): Mr. Chairman, I tried to get up before you called "Passed". All the members have been wading waist deep in the flood waters and I didn't even wet my toes so I'll proceed to do it now.

Honourable members are concerned about residents in the City of Winnipeg -- concerned about the flooding of the City of Winnipeg -- and rightly so. I am also concerned about the residents upstream, most. of the residents whom I represent, that•s from Morris south -- I don•t represent them at Morris but farther south I do, I think it is my duty and also my privilege to speak on behalf of these residents living upstream for whom there is no protection being even thought of at the present time. As you know, Mr.

Chairman -- and you 1ll agree with me -- that the residents in the Red River Valley in the upstream as well as the residents of the rest of Manitoba, will be asked to contribute towards the financing of the Red River floodway, But this Red River floodway is only intended to give protection to a portion of Greater Winnipeg, this portion which is suscept­ ible to flooding once every 35 years or so. The rest of the citizens will help to pay for this project and receive no direct benefits.

However, the residents that I represent and the rest of Manitoba can•t take a selfish attitude, We know that sometime in the future our turn may come, where the rest of Manitoba will be asked to contribute on our behalf. But the rest of the residents of Manitoba can be 'separated or divided into two groups, One group which is not affected by the same flood waters that flood the City of Winnipeg: that•s one group -- they•re asked to contribute, and I'm sure that they're quite willing. But there's another group -- the residents of Emerson, Dominion City, Letellier, Ste. Joseph, Ste.

Jean, Morris and many smaller settlements upstream along the Red River. This group suffered severe damage from the same flood waters that flood the City of Winnipeg, Also they will help in financing the project for the protection of Winnipeg. I think that they make a double contribution -- in dollars and cents and also in the form of suffering, anxiety,. misery, whenever the flood occurs, and I do not think that this is fair play.

The Minister yesterday coined a sentence or a phrase, he said 11Twenty years is a long time, !lnd how long do the people have to wait for action? 11 I think that I could ask him the same question now -- ask the Minister, how long the people in Upper Red River Valley will have to wait for some action, some protection or some assurance. I haven't heard -- there Page 1128 April lOth, 1963

(Mr. Tanchak cont 1d) • . • • . • wasn •t any forthcoming. The area usually flooded in this Red River Valley upstream is much, much greater, many times the area that is flooded in the City of Winnipeg. It forms a lake. Sometime it•s referred to as the Morris Lake --about 40 miles long and about 20 miles wide, at its extreme points. I've had --I won't say the pleasure -- but I've had the privilege of seeing this flood in 1950 and two years before that, and I can assure you that it is a sight that one never forgets.

Some of the dwellings, some of the business places are almost completely submerged, I remember visiting one of the business places and we hl1-d to use a boat --we entered the building through the second storey window, so they really suffered great damage. So far the Minister hasn't indicated any protection for: these people and I thirik that they are entitled to some kind of assurance and some kind of protection. I know that the report mentioned ring dykes --I have spoken privately to the Minister and he said that the ring dykes are possible _:.. ring dykes around the towns and villages.

This would not protect the farmers and I myself cannot see how, with the exception of some dyking and so on in tributaries, as I mentioned last year, how they could be protected. Probably the ring dykes are a little dangerous because if they ever break through it would cause a lot of damage, But. I wonder if the Minister wouldn rt look into the possibility of building ring dykes around these villages an d towns. And after they're built, and if a flood threatens I presume that it•ll be possible to evacuate all the people; therefore if the dykes do break through at least there would be no loss of life .

There may be damage to the property, but the damage would still be the same there, even if the ring dyke were not there. But at least the property would be pro­ tected, then after the waters recede these residents could go back and start business anew. I would like the Minister to consider that because residents upstream are concerned and I think. there was some presentations.,last year made from the Town of Emerson enquiring about the ring dykes, but there was no conclusion at the time.

I would like the Minister to keep this in mind and do something for these people because they're also good residents in the Province of Manitoba, MR . CHAIRMAN: Item 17 passed, MR. HARRY P. SHEWMAN (Morris): We all have our happy moments in this life, and this is one of the happiest moments I've had for a long time in this House. I am quite pleased that the Honourable Member from Emerson is beginning to think of the people in the Red River valley, because it •s not so long ago that we couldn •t get a membe·r of his party to think of the people in the Red River valley in 1950, His thoughts tonight are appreciated.

I well remember in 1950 tr:ying to get the then member of Emerson, the then member of LaVerendrye, the then member of Carillon, to try and get some help for the people that were suffering the hardships that he just mentioned, and it was a great big 11No11 with a capital 11N" at that time. And I say, I'm quite happy to see that the member from Emerson is on the right road, I'm as sure. as I'm standing here tonight that there will be some help for the people of the Red River valley, because this present government does take into consideration the possibilities of another flood in the Red River valley.

In 1950 the members of the government that was in the House at this time, done everything that was humanly possible to persuade the then government to help the people in the Red River valley, But it wasn•t very much help until public opinion across the Dominion of Canada and other places in this world forced the then government' to make a move to help the people in the Red River valley, And it was through the generosity of the people in the Dominion of Canada and other places that we did get the assistance that we got at that time.

But I'm sure that should another flood arrive that this government would be in there, we wouldn't have to come begging, fall on our hands and knees, to get the help that was necessary for the people in a flooded area such as 1950. I can remember taking 12 hours to come from Morris to Winnipeg, and ask the then gov­ ernment to build barges where they had the machinery and equipment to build them here within the City of Winnipeg to help evacuate livestock and human beings of the Red River valley. And the answer was, rrwe•ll think about it".

We did get busy and ·rtvJe pulled enough water out of the drink", as the expression goes to build barges in Morris. We asked the then government for assistance, that is, expert assistance on building these barges, and the answer was, they would _ _ write Ottawa and see what could be done to help build these barges. We did phone Ottawa, my­ self, get permission from the then Minister of Public Works, Mr. Winters, to bring a crew of boat builders from Emerson into Morris, and we built three barges on a floating grain Apl:il lOth, 1963 Page 1129

(Mr. Shewman cont1d) •.•••• platform, as it were, to help evacuate the people and the live­ stock out of the area in the Red River valley at that time. Now, as. I said before, I'm more than happy to have the support of the Honourable Member from Emerson in this respect, and I only wished, and I wished a good many times that I•d had the support of some of the other members of his party at that time. We couldn't get it. I know that should that occasion arise again we won•t have to plead and ask for help such as we had to do at that time.

And after all was said and done the people across the Dominion of Canada and _other places made it possible for us to be able to rehabilitate the people in their homes, their businesses and the farmers, and they do appreciate it. And we•re living in a threat, which is true, that it can happen again, but I know if it does happen again, as I said before we won •t have to worry about where the help is coming from, because I know it'll be there when we need it.

Now, there was a question mentioned here tonight about the people behind the dike, and during the debate of 1951, I think it was, if I remember properly, we did try to get help for the people behind the dike but it was turned down. The people behind the dike understood that there would be no help coming for them at that time, but I think this diversion around Winnipeg does give them the necessary protection that they didn't have in 1950 and on. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would like to see the Minister of Agriculture's estimates passed tonight and l•m not going to take up any more time.

But that is the story as far as the people in the Red River valley is concerned. It1s true, we do live in that fear of a flood, but we know this for a fact, that should a flood such as 1950 come along, that we won •t have to plead, and plead for help as we did in 1950. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I was not here in 1950, nor was the present member for Emerson, nor the present member for Carillon, nor the present member for LaVerendrye.

I'm ver_y interested in having the assurance of the Member for Morris that this government will give assistance to the people above the floodway inlet, and I'm sure his assurances are most interesting to the House, but I think that those should now be backed up by the Minister respon­ sible for the department with a definite commitment in view of the statements made by my honourable friend. I think the Minister should outline to the House at this time exactly the as­ surances that the Member for Morris was giving the House a moment ago. MR.

SHEWMAN: I disagree with the Leader of the Opposition, because it's the .faith that we have in this present government, and it's on account of the faith that we didn't have in the previous government. MR . MOLGAT: All I'm asking for, Mr. Chairman, are the assurances to back up the statements of my honourable friend from Morris, and I think if the Minister-- if my-honourable friend is correct that the Minister.should be prepared to givethoseassurances now when I think these would be very comforting to the people in the constituencies above the inlet to the floodway. MR . CHAffiMAN: Item 17 passed. MR .

HUTTON: •••.. very happy to do it. The record speaks for itself. --(lnterjection)-­ A MEMBER: .••.•.•. the record speaks for nothing. --(interjection)-- A MEMBER: We don't want promises, we want action. --(interjection) MR . TANCHAK: The Honourable Member from Morris just said, 11It didn't either, " or he's presuming that this government will be just the same, but ..... . MR . SHEWMAN: No, I object to that. I object to that. Withdraw that statement. He knows better. MR .

TANCHAK: I purposely -- I knew that my little contribution would bring the Honour­ able Member for Morris to his feet, but do you notice that I wasn '1: a bit critical in my speech, and I did not criticize the government or anything, I just pleaded for some assurance, and I wanted an answer from the Minister. We got an answer from a different Minister, or intended Minister or something, but I don't think that answer. is satisfactory to the people upstream. And when he mentions the years back, I know something about those years back, and I don•t think that he •s telling a completely true story.

A MEMBER: Order, order! MR . SHEWMAN: I object to that. I did tell the truth. MR . TANCHAK: • • . • . because, although I was not a member at the time, I was concern­ ed, and I was also directly implicated in that flood, especially around Emerson, and I don't think that the previous government completely neglected the people. As I remember it well, Page 1130 April lOth, 1963

(Mr. Tanchak cont•d) .. .••. there was no human life lost -- he referred to human life. There wasn't any. The stock did not fare so badly -- they were fed, and things -- the conclusion was pretty good. The people who sustained damage were fully recompensed for their damages, and there wasn •t that much suffe ring. He says there was no consideration at all. I didn't like the attitude of the Honourable Member from Morris. All he had to offer is nothing but criticism of the government five or six years back. That is past, we •re living in the present.

But I still would like to have some assurance from the right Minister as far as protection or assurance is concerned. I don •t think I'll get it, but I'd like to have some assurance that the people will have some assurance of compensation for flood, for damages, or maybe consider the ring dikes. MR . HUTTON: The honourable member, Mr. Chairman, knows that we have a program, and have had it every year since we •re in office where in case of the overflow of the rivers and streams we try to help people to rehabilitate.

Certainly if we encountered a major flood, the people who were unfortunate· enough to experience such a flood could count on the whole­ hearted support of this government -- and I expect from any future government in Manitoba. MR . TANCHAK: Would the policy be similar to the one followed by the former govern­ ment ? --(Interjection) MR . ARTHUR E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks ): Mr . Chairman, I wonder if I might take a couple of minutes. I find myself sitting here on the edge of my chair, and I too was not a member of this House in 1950.

But I was chairman of Public .Works in the municipality of West Kildonan, and I did serve on the Rivers and Streams Authority for ·quite a few years, so I feel that I would be not doing my duty if I didn't say a few words at this moment, because I'm a little disgusted with some of the arguments that I've heard here tonight. I will say that the Liberals were completely asleep at the switch in 1950, because they didn•t even know that there was an emergency coming.

When I heard the honourable members worrying about the gravel pits, we have had gravel pits full of water there for years in Moose­ nose Creek, there's fifty or sixty feet of water in it and it•s well below the level of the proposed floodway now. We all know the responsibility for the river banks -- the erosion of the Red River River banks is a federal responsibility. This is old stuff. We •ve been through this many years ago, trying to protect our residents and the municipalities of both Kildonans . This is nothing new to us . Appeals were made to Ottawa as far back as the early forties.

And as far as this question of the floodway becoming a cesspool -- I want to ask the honourable members what the Red River was in 1961 but a cesspool when the detergents were going over the falls at Lock­ port and were billowing away in the breeze there, many acres were covered by this detergent and stuff. This is nothing new. Mr. Chairman, I know that the floodway is not the best thing to do. If we're going to look 50 years ahead; I know that 50 years from now people will look back and wonder why we built it. But I do say that it is the best thing to do now, on the basis of the cost benefit studies.

And when I think of all the wonderful people from all over North America who contributed in our time of trouble and distress here in 1950, I am very proud to know that we are doing something about the floods, or potential floods of the future. I1d like them to know that we •re trying to help ourselves because we certainly appreciate all the help we got. I think much of the debate here tonight, as far as I'm concerned, was just a little on the disgusting side.

I want to throw my support, because I may have reservations about the type of thing we 're going, but having started it I want to give my whole-hearted support to this protection of Winnipeg, beca use after all we have over half the population of Manitoba here in the Metro area. MR . CHAffiMAN: Item 17 - - passed. MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, there •s an Order for a Return on the matter of the agree­ ment between this government and the Ottawa government. The question was asked of the Min­ ister today, could he indicate to the committee when these. agreements will be tabled?

The order was passed in the early part of March. MR . HUTTON: As soon as it•s ready and as soon as I have clearance from the Federal Government on tabling some of the correspondence. MR . MOLGA T: Insofar as the agreements, Mr. Chairman, the Minister made a statement this afternoon which in my opinion is incorrect, that Manitoba was getting as . good a deal as Saskatchewan, which it's not, and I think the agreements are necess ary in order to prove this matter. Iwould askthe Minister to get them into the House as soon as possible. April lOth, 1963 Page 1131

MR . CHAmMAN: Department X, Public Utilities . 1. Administration. MR . GUTTORMSON: Mr. Chairman, before the Minister starts, I'd like to suggest that we stand aside the Estimates of this Department until the hearing into the water contract iS completed. The Premier said this matter should be aired for the people of Manitoba. I agree With him. There's a lot of evidence to come out at this hearing and I think until such time as we've heard it all that the Estimates of this Department should be considered afterwards. MR . LYON: Mr.

Chairman, my remarks tonight will be brief as I make this opening statement with respect to the Department of Public Utilities. MR . GUTTORMSON: We have an important matter to discuss .•••• MR . CHAmMAN: Order. MR . GUTTORMSON: Whose side are you on, Mr. Chairman? MR . CHAIRMAN: Are you rising to. a point of order? Is the me mber rising to a point of order? MR. GUTTORMSON: Yes. MR. CHAmMAN: What is the point of order ? MR. GUTTORMSON: I raised the point that we should not discuss these Estimates until such time as the heariilg into the water contract is completed. MR.

CHAmMAN: Well we just passed the Estimates of Agriculture and Conservat ion. MR . GUTTORMSON: That doesn't come under that though. The Drake-Pearson con­ tract deals with the Hydro and the Hydro comes under this Department. MR. CHAmMAN: We passed Department VI and we have now called for Department X, Public Utilities. MR . GUTTORMSON: Well that's precisely what I'm dealing with. The Hydro comes under Utilities. I suggest that we should not proceed to this department until such time as the hearing is completed and we've heard all the evidence so we can discuss the .matter iil the House .

We have no opportunity to do it until such time -- I've still got information coming through Orders for Return -- they have not been completed and I feel that we should not go iilto this department until such time as those papers and this matter's been discussed thorough- ly in the Committee. · MR. LYON: Mr. Chairman, my honourable friend perhaps isn't aware, but the rest of the House is aware that the Public Utilities Committee will be making a report to the House and the House will have ample opportunity to discuss that report when it is made.

I now propose to give a few preliminary remarks to the Committee, Mr. Chairman, with respect to the operations of the two ma jor utilities and a few brief remarks about the general operations of the department itself. With respect to Manitoba Hydro, production and purchases of firm energy for use in so.uthern Manitoba showed a gain of 4. 6 percent in the ten months to the end of January, 1963. This increase is almost exactly the same as recorded iil the same period last year .. When production in northern Manitoba is included, the total increase becomes 5. 8 percent.

It is noteworthy that the iilcrease for all of Canada iil electric energy made available for consump­ tion in calendar 1962 was 4. 8 percent •. During an exceptionally cold day in January of this year, sout hern Manitoba experienced a peak load of 741.3 megawatts. This peak was 64.7 megawatts above that recorded in January of 1961, an unusually large increase of some 9. 6 percent. In direct comparison to last year, 1962 was marked by very high flows in the Winnipeg River.

As a result, the amount of energy produced hydraulically in the ten months under re­ view increased 25 percent while production of thermal energy was less than one-quarter of last year's level. This effect of nature on the source of generation is extremely significant to Manitoba Hydro. As an example , the effect of the much higher river flows in the past nine months has meant a reduction in power costs of some $700, 000 compared with the same period last year.

It will be noted in the 1961-62 Annual Report that Manitoba Hydro appropria­ ted some $311, 000 from the rate stabilization reserve in order to cover the sm all deficit in­ curred on operations for that year. In 1962-63 the utility is expecting that a small surplus on operations will be obtained. The Manitoba Hydro 1962-63 capital program calls for expenditures in excess of $50 million. At the present time it appears that most of this program will be completed so that Page 1132 April lOth, 1963

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd) ••••• the expenditures are expected to approach the $50 million figure. Expenditures at Grand Rapids will account for approximately 60 percent of this total. Con­ struction of the 330, 000 kilowatt Grand Rapids generating station has been continuing generally on schedule. Expenditures as of February 1963, of this year, were approaching $50 million, just over 40 percent of the estimated total cost. The first two units are scheduled for operation in the fall of 1964 with the third in 1965. Provision has also been made for adding a fourth unit at a later date.

At the present time work has advanced to the point where the powerhouse is be:Jng closed in and erection of the turbine s will begin this spring. The Saskatchewan River is now being diverted through the spillway but some concrete placing and gate erection remains to be completed. Diking is now approximately half completed. It will be noted that the esti­ mated costs of the Grand Rapids development have been reduced considerably since the project first began on the basis of original estimates. Now if I may for a moment, Mr.

Chairman, refer members of the Committee to some generalized information with respect to the Manitoba Telephone System. A major milestone that was reached in the history of the system during 1962 was the installation of its three hun­ dred thousandth telephone. The system recorded a total increase of 12, 480 telephones and now have 310, 000 telephones in service. Long distance traffic continue s to reflect increasing use of this service . During 1962 over eight million calls were completed, which was an 8. 3 percent increase over the previous year.

This is partly attributed to the system's program of continually expanding, improving and diversifying its long distance network. A total of 9, 200 additional miles of long distance voice circuits were established during 1962. Capital expen­ ditures of $18, 500, 000 for additional plant and equipment were made during 1962 to meet the telecommu nications demands, constantly expanding the economy of our province.

This con­ tinuing demand for service, the conversion from manual to automatic dial operation and the necessary introduction of the latest in service offering, will require capital expenditures of somewhat sim ilar amounts over the years to come . Growing with the province it serves, .the system offers a high quality diversified comm unications service, designed and built to handle all the complex requirements that modern living and modern business demand. I think a few words on telephone growth would be of interest.

A heavy demand for the system's services has continued and since the year 1958 the growth load in telephones has been as follows: in Winnipeg, the growth from December 31st, 1962, back to March 31st, 1958, in business phones alone of 13, 901; in resi dence local phones, an increase in that same period of 29, 296; in rural s_tations, 350; a total increase, therefore, of 43,5 47.

The total telephone growth in Winnipeg and the province has been 71, 823, made up in the same period again of an increase in business telephones of 8, 381 ; residence and local, of 16, 396; rural, of 3, 517 ; and toll stations, 18 -- that is in the area outside of Greater Winnipeg -- for a total of 28, 276. An increase of some 14, 000 telephones is forecast at the present time for the fis­ cal year 1963-64.

Dur ing the past five years automatic dial service has been established at four provincial exchanges and 28 provincial points, bringing modern dial service to 16, 657 subscribers' tele­ phones formerly served on a manual bas is . In Winnipeg, in addition to meeting all demands for both business and residence services, the program of upgrading service from two-party to one-party individual line service is continually progressing. The ratio of one to two-party service in Winnipeg is now 70 percent one-party, 30 percent two-party, compared with 42 percent one-party and 58 percent two-party in April of 1958.

In the field of long distance, that traffic has increased by 35 percent since 1958 -- the spring . This is a reflection not only of the increased number of telephones and service but of increased subs criber long distance usage . This increased usage is no doubt partly attri­ butable to an improved speed and quality of service resulting from the development and expan­ sion of the system's long distance switching network with the most modern facilities available to the industry.

Expansion continued on the radio relay network throughout the province with hook-ups between Brandon, Flin Flon; and scatter radio relay link between The Pas and Snow Lake and Thompson; radio relay between Winnipeg, Portage la Prairie ; the Portage la Prairie , Morden and Winnipeg and the United States boundary. These facilitie-s have provided high grade reliable services designed to meet all the traffic requirements for Manitoba as well as our national, international and inter-continental commi tments. A total of 72, 177 April lOth, 1963 Page 1133

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd) .• ••• additional miles of long distance message voice circuits have been provided by radio and land line carrier systems during the period April l958 to December of 1962. And now with respect to new developments and service offerings, the first data phone which provides for the transmittal of information from one business machine to another by means of a telephone network, was installed in Winnipeg in 1962 with satisfactory results. Another new service offering speedy transmission of teletype messa ges called teletype writer exchange service, TWX, was introduced in November.

This service operating on a dial and type principle enables the user to com municate with any other TWX machine in Canada, and iii the United States in the near future. Underground and buried cable facilities were extended to the rural areas of the system's continuing program to further improve service to our rural customers . The year 1962 also saw the appointment of the five-man Board of Commissioners to direct the over-all policies of the Manitoba Telephone System under the chairmanship of J. F. Mills, formerly the General Manager and Commissioner of the Manitoba Telephone System • .

During the year 1962 as well, Mr. Chairman, additional equipment was added to our microwave systems to provide for the transmission of television programs for the private television network CTV. The Trans-Canada Telephone System, of which MTS is a member co mpany, .was awarded a ten-year contract by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation to pro­ vide coast-to-coast radio network facilities on both the English and French networks. This service was inaugurated on a national basis in October of 1962.

May I, just at the conclusion of these general remarks about. the two utilities, Manitoba Hydro and Manitoba Telephone System, pause for a moment to pay some 'small tribute but a very deserving one to the chairman of these two utilities and to the executive members, and ·indeed to all of the employees of these two utilities, for providing for the people of Manitoba the high standard of service, not only in the electrical field but in the telecomm unications field, that we have been privileged to have from them.

We all know that this type of service will continue in the future and I think it is only fitting that we pay a small tribute to these men and women who work so well on behalf of the people of Manitoba. Now, Mr. Chairman, with respect to the inner department itself, I should mention with respect to the estimates before the Com mittee that there are three items of increase -- two items actually of increase of expenditure to be noticed in the estimates before the com mittee. The major item has to do with the issue of new license plates for 1964.

These plates are un­ der order at the present time and will be re ady for the new registration year when it begins. I thought the honourable members might like to see an example of the new plate and I brought it along tonight -- because it just arrived on my desk today -- to show the Com mittee, Mr. Chairman, that the plate will be yellow or orange as a background with a black lettering, and this will be our plate which will be issued in 1964 for that licensing year. That is the main item of increase in the estimates of the department.

One other matter that I should like to speak about for a moment is the plan of the depart­ ment to extend the driver training program, which it already has, into the field of high schools. As honourable members are perhaps aware, certain experiments in this field have already been conducted by the Motor Vehicle Branch, the Safety Branch, in order to determine what the response was.

The success of the experiment at Winkler has met with such general accep­ tance in that area that the department now considers that the program should be extended to other areas where the school boards indicate an interest in such a program in their particular area. I do want to emphasize, Mr.

Chairman, that the idea of the department is this, not to move into an area and try to sell a program of driver improvement but rather the reverse, to have the school division boards and the different high schools aware of the fact that the depart­ ment will have the manpower and the training material, in terms of reading material and so on, available, in order to assist schools to set up such programs for the benefit of their students. As an example, at Winkler, which was one of the pilot programs, one of the teachers volunteered to assist in the program.

He took a training course at Moose Jaw conducted by the C�nadian Highway Safety Council. The teacher selected could only take the training, a two-week course, during the summer holidays . The program got underway when the children returned to school in September. There is no suggestion or intention certainly on the part of Page 1134 April lOth, 1963

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd) .•••• our department that such a program will interfere with the regular stud ies of the studen ts. In other words, the theory portion of the program, as we envisage it, wo uld be discussed say at the noon hour, and behind-the-wheel instruction could be given after four or on Saturdays .

The Branch -- as I mentioned before and I reiterate this again ­ the Branch's main activity would be to participate in the organization of the program in each particular area and to render such assis tance as is required to the local school teachers or school boards who express an interest in this driver training program . As I have mentioned, . there . is an item in the estimates to cover the cost of a supervisor, his travelling expenses and any material -- extra printed material -- th at may be required to see that this program can get underway on a broader basis.

One final item that I would mention tonight -- it's already a matter of record in this House -- namely, that during the past fiscal year the government concluded reciprocity agree­ ments with the Province of On tario, Alberta and Saskatchewan, marking a great forward step, we feel, in the whole transportation industry in Manitoba. These are the only preliminary remarks that I would make to the Commi ttee tonight, Mr. Chairman, and I shall endeavor to answer any ques tions that are put with respect to these items. MR. BARKMAN: Mr.

Chairman, I would like to thank the Honourable Minister for Pub­ lic Utilities for the remarks he made in regards to Manitoba Hydro and the Manitoba Telephone Syste m, and of course to the rest of the departments under his Ministership. I agree with him that there are some fine people working for this' utility and they certainly deserve mentioning. Also, I am very happy to see that in some departments -- and I am ref erring now where the government is taking more interest in establishing rates in regards to water utilities.

I believe that the confusion amongst the municipalities has been greatly cleared the last year or year and a half, and I am sure this is appreciated. I know that the help your department can give the municipalities, especially in the first few years of its operation, is very essential and much appreciated. I hope there will be more municipalities with established rates before too long, and I am sure that the Minister appreciates the problems involved. I also want to congratulate the Manitoba Hydro in their effort to keep the towns and the villages so well-lighted.

Besides the fact of the revenues received, I believe there are a lot of advantages to a· town or village being well-lighted for the purpose of discouraging juvenile delin­ quency, crime in general, and of course for busine ss reasons, cleanliness and a lot of other reasons. The Manitoba Hydro has done its fair share to make this so, and the municipalities and all the people have appreciated the assis tance that this utility has given them at all tim es. How ever, I do have some questions.

I have always been under the impression that we had about the lowest rate in Canada and app arently this is true on farm rates. But I was quite surprised the other day to hear from a friend that he asked for rates on a block of about 60, 000 kilowatt hours from the Manitoba Hydro and also from the Ontario Hydr o, and I was startled to learn that there was a quote of $570 from the Manitoba Hydro and a quote of $343 from the On­ tario Hydro . This is a 60 percent higher quote. I would like if the Honourable MiniSter could afterwards tell me why our power rates are so much higher than Ontari o's.

With regard to the Manitoba Telephone System, I am sorry to say that I have not the same cordial attitude towards some of the officials . When it comes to making mutual agree­ ments or discussing problems such as our underground wires, poles, and the .•.•••.•.. and even arranging a telephone for a Fire . Department or the like, there seems to be a less co­ operative feeling on the part of some of the people employed by the Telephone System . Why this should be often bothers me. I am sorry, but I feel this attitude has reached the stage where the Minister should look into the matter.

I may add that I am not anxious to mention any names and I have really very few individual name s in mind, but I can assure the Honourable Minister that I am not referring to the gentleman with whom I had the pleasure of dealing just recently. I am not determined to make a pointed issue of this, but the number of municipalities complaining of this attitude seems to be growing. I believe the intention of this department is still right, and if this could be corrected soon I am sure many people would be happier.

Many of these complaints I realiZe are minor, but I feel good public rEHations are important and pos­ sibly an improvement could be made in this regard. There is another thing that I would like to bring to the attention of the Honourable Minister of Utilities and this Committee . The Manitoba Telephone System has spent approximately one April lOth, 1963 Page 1135

(Mr. Barkman, cont'd) ..••• and a half million dollars in the Steinbach, Portage, Niverville and Kleefeld area on a system that is very highly appreciated. I do not have to go into detail on this because we all know the advantages of a good telephone system. It serves in all emergen­ cies of life, .in the matter of saving lives and so on, and a lot of other purposes. Also, we know it very often enhances the possibilities of better and more successful business relations . In plain words, it builds up a community. Now we have a problem in southeastern Manitoba.

As I mentioned before, Niverville, Kleefeld, Portage and Steinbach are already established under one telephone exchange. Now it is also the wish of the Grunthal, Barkfie ld and Sarto people to join this group, with Steinbach remaining as their headquarters . I agree that possibly the territory can reach a point where it can get too large, but I believe that this is one case where the Minister or the com mittee should make an exception. My reason for the exception is this.

At the time negotiations took place, the Town of Steinbach was verbally promised that if they would give up their old telephone sys­ tem, and I admit that their telephone syste m was nothing to be proud of at that time when these negotiations took place, but nevertheless. there was a verbal promise that the Manitoba Tele­ phone System would consider keeping the ethnic groups together in these areas by placing them under one exchange.

Now I sincerely hope that the Minister and the Commi ssi on will take a good look at this set-up and try to please this part of southeastern Manitoba where all the groups are unanimously in favor of this suggested set-up. A few words on party lines . I know that the complaint of too many people on one line is still serious, but I understand that the Telephone System is working on this problem and maybe some action should be taken in regard to limi ting their time or the likes on phones. I do not know, but I hope some solution will be found.

Another matter that I am very concerned about is the condition, or conditions placed on telephone service in some rural areas . I'm referring to parts of sou theastern Manitoba, and very likely in most parts of Manitoba, where you can only phone certain days or certain hours of the day. This strikes me as being somewhat discrimi natory causing some inconveniences and possi bly even hardships upon the people.

Also, there are a number of people in the rural areas that are deprived of telephone service because of the policy of the Manitoba Telephone System to charge for the cost of installation in excess of approximately one mile . I believe this policy should be reviewed, and I wonder if later the Honourable Minister could indicate the number of subscribers who are denied service because of this policy. With the large amou nts being spent on improving service in the urban area, I believe consideration should be given to many of these rural ·areas where telephone service would be of great value to our people.

On subscriber s' telephones, in the report on page 1 and 2, that is on the Manitoba Tele­ phone Progress Report, ·I note a decrease in the number of phones installed from 16; 000 in 1961 compared with 12, 480 in 1962, a decline of 4, 521. I do not know the reason. I'm sure we wouldn't want to admit that it is a condition of an economi c growth, or maybe som ething else, but I would appreciate an explanation on this. I'd like to ask the Honourable Minister a few questions on, first, the Manitoby Hydro.

When the Manitoba Hydro Electric Board and the Manitoba Power Comm ission were amalgama­ ted, it was indicated that there would be more efficiency in operation and savings to the con­ sumer. I'd like to ask this. Has this proved to be the case, and could you tell me how many employees are working for the utility now and how many were previously working for the two utilitie s? Also, on the Annual Report, page 5, it is indicated that in the fiscal year ending March 31, 1962, there was an operating deficit of $310, 000. 00.

I wonder if you could tell us what the situation is as of March 31st of this year; if the deficit has continued to grow; and what plans, if any, are being made for a rate increase ? I have very little more to say on the Minister's Salary, except a little bit about the Motor Vehicle Branch. I was going to kick about the price of dealer plates going up, but they tell me that's not very cour�_ious if you're a dealer yourself, so we'll leave that. However, I have one ·· more suggestion, or question to ask.

It seems to me that in the Motor Vehicle Branch, this department has grown to such a large department that firstly, I cannot quite understand why it should be under this department or under the Department of Utilities; and secondly, since it has gr:own to such an extent, I wonder if it would not be in order if it should not warrant another separate Minister. I'm thinking in my thinking that this department deserves a full-time Page 1136 April lOth, I963 I

(Mr. Bar kman, cont1d) ••••• Minister, and this is no reflection on the present Minister, I can assure you. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I just wish to make a few brief remarks on the Minis­ ter's Salary. I want to join first of all with the Minister and the honourable member who has just taken hiS seat, although I will not qualify my appreciation as my honourable friend who has just sat down did. I want to extend my appreciation to the officials who are operating our pub­ lic utilities here in the Province of Manitoba, and also to their employees and to their staff.

I'm sure that we cannot help but be thrilled here in the Province of Manitoba under the socialist administration insofar as public utilities is concerned - we cannot help but be thrilled, when after thunderstorms or hailstorms or weather conditions such as we had the other day that cur­ tailed our telephone system and also our hydro system to the degree that it did, that these men and women in the service went out and very, very rapidly repaired the damage that was done.

I think we in this Legislature owe to the people who undertook this task, in very adverse cir­ cumstances, we owe them a sincere vote of appreciation for the job that they did. I'm always thrilled too, Mr. Chairman, being of the political philosophy that I am, that I can stand up here in the LegislatUre of the Province of Manitoba and say a word of tribute to our public utilities that we have under public ownership in the Province of Manitoba. There is one other that isn't under public ownership, Mr.

Chairman, that I will not refer to particularly at the present time, but may have a word or two to say in respect of that utility in a little while. The Minister mentioned, and I noted too as. did the honourable member who has just spoken, of the deficit in operations for the year 1961- 62 . The Minister did tell us that he is anticipating in the current year, or the fiscal year just completed, that there will be a slight surplus for the year 1962-63 . I would like to ask the Minister, when he is making a general reply, how long he anticipates that we may have even a slight surplus as we did in 1962-63 .

I realize and appreciate the fact, accord:ilig to my reading of the Annual Report, that we have a rate's tabilization fund -- I think it's somewhere in the neighborhood of $15 million at the pre­ sent time -- but in view of the fact that the report itself under review at the present time men­ tiones the fact of increasing costs of operation, I'm wondering if the Minister can give us any indication as to how long we might be able to continue in the province at the rate that we now have without any increase. As I glance through the report, Mr.

Chairman, on the Hydro, I note reference is made to the question of the development in the Grand Rapids area. I certainly don't want to infringe on any of the matters that are under discussion in the Committee on Public Utilities insofar as road contracts and water contracts, but I would like the Minister to expand a little bit insofar as the development at Grand Rapids. We had some discussion in the past year or two on the question of the re-settlement of the people who are going to be affected as the result of the de­ velopment at Grand Rapids.

I would like the Minister to tell us what progress has been made insofar as the re-allocation of the people in the areas are concerned, and whether this is being done and will be completed long in advance of the flooding of the forebay at Grand Rapids.

Another point that I would like to ask of the Minister, I note that in the auditor's report insofar as the Manitoba Hydro Electric Board is concerned, that in the reserves and invest­ ments that are held at the present time by the Provincial Treasurer of the province on behalf of the Hydro, I note that while the over-all amount is not nearly as much as the over-all obli­ gations of the Board, I note that there are bonds to the extent of slightly over $6 million. This is on page 18 of the report.

I note that there is a considerable number of Government of Canada bonds with interest rates from 3 1/4 up to 4 1/2 percent. Many of these bonds will not be due -­ in one case for 20 years from now -- but in many cases anyway, Mr. Chairman, these bonds will not become due for a considerable period of time. Now I'm wondering whether or not these bonds should be sold, even though they are sold at less than par value, because the market for it according to the report is less than the par value.

I'm wondering whether or not it might be good business for the board or the Provincial Treasurer to dispose of these bonds which have a relatively low interest rate and purchase bonds at higher rates which are available at the present time. It would seem to me that this is a matter that is worthy of consideration, and I would like to hear either from the Provincial Treasurer or from the Minister respecting this. I think it's well-known in this House, Mr. Chairman, that we in this group have on many occasions raised a protest at the high interest rates that are charged these days for all April 10th, 1963 Page 1137

{Mr. Paulley, cont'd) ••••• operations in the field of finance -- six, seven and eight percent in many cases -- and I question the advisability of hanging on to even Government of Canada bonds at 3 1/4 percent -- and this is no reflection on the possibility of a change of government at Ottawa -- but I question the advisability of hanging on to bonds at 3 1/4 percent when we might be able to replace them with bonds at 5, 5 1/2 percent, which will of course result in greater revenues in interest rates from the bonds .

I also would like to suggest to the Honourable the Minister of Public Utilities that he might be able. to make arrangements for the members of the Com mitte e to go to Grand Rapids on� an organized tour of the area in order that we may become fully conversant with the opera­ tions that are going on there. My remarks in regard to the telephone system will be brief at this time, and the same tribute that I paid to the other members of the Hydro Board of course is the same in respect of the Manitoba Telephone System.

Here again I think we in Manitoba are fortunate in having a publicly-owned utility that does render a very good service to the people of Manitoba. I might say that I join with the Honourable Member from Steinbach in respect of the seemi ngly slow pro­ gress that is being made in some areas in the suburban area with the extension of private tele­ phone services to subsc ribers . I've had a number of times when I've drawn this to the attention of the manage ment of the Telephone System. They're very courteous in their replies but it does seem to me that there is still considerable delay, although I know, Mr.

Chairman, that they're working in trying to alleviate the situation at the present time and I sincerely trust that these services will be available to all of the suburban areas at least as quickly as possible. I would like to ask a question in respect of the Telephone System of the Minister. I recall, Mr.

Chairman, some five or six years ago, the then Minis ter of Public Utilities had a piece of cable that he was showing us here in the Legislature of the new version of telephoning -- coaxial cable I think he called it at that time -- and was explaining at that particular time we were going into the most modern system of telephoning, namely the two letter and five digit system of telephoning, and he thought at that time that this was the ultimate at least for a considerable number of years.

I see the Honourable Minister of Industry and Com merce nodding his head, but that was only about six years ago and now I see that the trend insofar as telephoning is con­ cerned is to get away from the two letters and the five digits and have seven digits, which leads me to ask the Minister when will we be able to take advantage of. the new advances in telephones and have direct long distance telephoning from the -w ell let's say from the Winn ipeg Exchange because I can appreciate it might be a little longer insofar as the rural areas are concerned. I think, Mr.

Chairman, these are all the remarks that I wish to make on the Minis ter's salary. Dealing with the question of the Hydro and the Telephone s, I will have a few comm ents to make on the other items in the Estimates as we reach them. MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, I only have a few brief questions to ask the Honourable Minister. No. 1. What progress, if any, has been made for underground wires as far as elec"" tricity and telephones? My Leader mentioDe d a few minutes ago about the heroic work of the staff in connection with any unforeseen accident or storm .

I think to have this would elimi nate considerably these hazards. You know when it's 40 below zero or 30 below zero it's very un­ comfortable -- we have experienced it -- to have no power or light at home. No. 2. What is · the present situation for power ? Have we sufficient now until the new Hydro is ready to pro­ duce for present consumpti on? Ques tion No. 3. Is the program of rural rehabilitation com­ pleted or are they still working on it? Every mem ber realizes that this is the finest, most progressive, the most helpful undertaking of electrifying the rural districts.

I realize that thousands of farmers are still on the far ms due to the electrification . And finally, it's a minor thing but I have requested it every year. Most of the contribu­ tion to the Telephone System I believe, unless I'm wrong, coa:e s from the busines s people. We had at one time a book published -- it was even free but you could charge for it, people are very �illing to pay -- "Who is Calling". It was very helpful to the business industry. I have requested this for -- oh, I don't know how many years -- and every time the Minister of the day suggested that it would be a waste of money .

I don't think it is. This would be a very added service for those who pay twice, if not more than twice as much for telephones than the resi­ dential districts, and they need it for their business. Many, many people ask-me every year to bring it up again. Page 1138 April lOth, 1963 I

(Mr. Gray. cont'd) ••••• Finally, I want to tell the Honourable Member from Steinbach that I have been dealing with the telephone office for nearly half a century and have found them always very, very nice, polite and willing to help, so ii the gentleman has found one individual that probably was not as helpf ul. after all we've got to have a black sheep some time, so mewhere. The rest of the points I wanted to mention were already covered by the Honourable Member from Steinbach and my Leader, so I'm not going to take up the time of repeating it • . MR . HILLHOUSE: Mr.

Chairman, I think the members of the Com mittee know my stand on the question of compulsory automobile insurance. They know that I am very defin�tely op­ posed to the introduction of such a scheme in Manitoba, but at the same time I do believe that under our present system there is one weakness and I think we should make every effort and attempt -to plug that loophole.

What I refe r to is this, that under our present Unsatisfied Judg­ ment Fund there is no method by which we can collect property damage, and I believe that we should include property damage claims up to a certain amount in our Unsatisfied Judgment Fund.

I realize and appreciate that there may be certain reciprocal diff iculties in introducing that into the Province of Manitoba but I fe el that these diffic ulties could be overcome by recog­ nizing the present Motor Vehicle Liability Insurance Cards held by other jurisdictions which we consider to be valid in Manitoba today. but I know that this fe eling· towards compulsory auto­ mobile insurance is not conf ined to my friends to the left.

We have certain members in our own Party who have been advocating it for some· time and as far as I can ascertain from listen­ ing to their arguments, about the only valid argument they have in support of it is the fac t that property damage claims are not covered, so I would strongly urge and suggest to the Minister that that matter be taken under advisement, because I do know of a number of taxi companies in the CitY of Winnipeg which have been put to fairly heavy expense over the years due to their inability to collect in respect of property damage.

There is so many young drivers driving ci'ii'is hi-'Manitoba today who have no financ ial backing whatsoever and they can become involved iil.,-a1l"-a:Ut&mobile accident where property damage can be quite substantial, and the mere fa ct tb.ahii.ey' are kept off the road doesn't help the plaintiff in recovering the amount of his damages. So for that reason , I would suggest to the Minister that that particular aspect be kept under ad­ visement. There is another matter with which I'd like to deal, Mr. Chairman, and that is the ques­ tion of certificates 'of ownership fo r motor vehicles .

Now I realize that a certificate of owner­ ship of a motor vehicle is diff erent to a certif icate of ownership of land. A motor vehicle is personal property; it's mobile; it can be transf erred simply by delivering over the object; but at the same time I think we should make a start in Manitoba in having a central registry of­ fice for registering ownership certificates for motor vehicles. When we introduced into Mani­ toba The Real Property Act to replace -- or in addition to our Registry Act, we only made that Act applicable to lands, the patent for which issued after a certain date.

All these lands be­ came subject to The Real Property Act and I would suggest this, that we could use the same system in Manitoba in gradually introducing a system of ownership certificates in respect of motor vehicles . We could make them apply to all new cars purchased as and fro m a certain date. Now that would give rise to some central registry office where these certific ates would be registered.

Under the present system, I presume that the best place to register them would be with the Motor Vehicle Branch, although my own feeling is that perhaps the Provincial Secretary's office would be a good place to register them, but I would ask the Minister to take these twO matters under advisement. There is another matter too, Mr. Chairman, and that is under The Real Estate Agents' Act. There is nothing in that Act which requires a real estate agent, when he is acting for a vendor of property, to give to the purchaser a copy of the agreement of purchase .

I have run across a great number of cases lately where sales have been made by real estate agents and the fo rms that they have used are very nebulous in contents and you've almost got to get the parties together afte rwards to find out.what the deal was . Now I think that the real estate agent should be forced to have a certain type of for m of contract to use in these cases. MR . SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, the remarks of the Honourable Member from Selkirk pertaining to automobile insurance raises some interesting points and ramificatio ns.

He states that he is still opposed to the idea of compulsory automobile insurance but he states that some Aprll lOth, 1963 Page 1139

(Mr. Schreyer, cont'd) •.••• within his own group are now. and perhaps have been for some time, in favour of such a system of automobile insuranc e. If this is the case, it indicates pro­ gress. In the post-war period� traffic loads on our highways have been increasing almost geome­ trically -- in geome tric proportions. Our insurance laws have not been keeping up with the problem so we have been resort ing to stop-gap temporary measures, and because they are stop-gaps we have recei ved out of it all some very interesting if not queer results . Let me give you a concrete example.

A couple of months ago a trucker going down Highway No. 4 was stopped by the RCMP for a routine check. During that time the truck was run into by an auto­ mobile -- a late .model automobile - and the driver of the car was killed. The trucker had stopped for the law, routine check, legally parked or legally stopped, whichever way you want to cons ider it, and an inquest was held. The driver of the truck was exonerated, the law being present at the scene, and for some strange reason there has been an order from the Registrar that the truck be impounded. The trucker didn't have insuranc e.

Now I can understand that perhaps under some strange -y ou get many various permutations and combinations under ac­ cidents -- you don't know all the details, but in essence, basically this was the situation. And yet because of the system that we have at the present time, which is a stop-gap type of system insurance-wi se, we have an innocent party having his truck impounded, a man who depends for his bread and butter on it. Now of course you might ask, "Wasn't he foolish not to have insur­ ance on the vehicle ?" I suppose one would have to admit he was .

The fact of the mat ter is that there is a slack se ason in January and February in trucking and he let it lapse thinking to renew it just some time before April when the trucking business picks up. But in that interval, this is wha:t happened . · I would suggest to the Attorney-General that he look into the matter -"'" I can provide him with the details -- and to have this order of the Registrar res cinded forthwith because it seems to me to be silly, beyond any kind of relation to common sense.

Perhaps it isn't the fault of the Vehic le Branch because of the bureaucracy that they have to labor under -- regulations, etcetera, that they have to abide by. But perhaps the regulatio�s were miscons trued in this sense and I suggest that the matter be looked into. If we had a comprehensive or a universal syste m of car insuranc e, call it compulsory if you like, it seems to me in this day and age of traffic loads increasi ng geometrically, that we should be making very serious steps in that direction. I throw this out to the Attorney-General for his consideration. It's specific and yet it's so very important.

I would also like to take the opportunity to say a few words in connection with the Manitoba Telephone System only. Insofar as Hydro is concerned, there is not much left for me to say beyond what has been sa id already. Hydro seems to be now working toward a very comprehen­ sive multi-million dollar program of expansion. The importance of course is understood since it involves the development of our energy resources and the base of our industrial development for years to come. The Hydro seems to be under excellent administration all the way down the line.

I think that is taken as given, or it is well understood, and I would have no hes itation in saying that the same applies to the Telephone System. But I do want to take the opportunity to express some very serious doubts about the way the Telephone System has been giving priorities to its various work programs. The Minister gave us a run-down of the. work that has been performed by the Telephone System and it sounds impressive, and if one reads the Progress Report it looks impressive too. They have done a good deal of service upgrading in the past year, two years and three years.

But as I say, the priorities that they have ass igned leave a lot to be desired. For example , the Telephone Sys­ tem has given top priority to the reducing of two-party lines in the Metropolitan Winnipeg area, upgrading it from two-party to single or individual party lines ,and it sounds_ impressive how they have reduced two-party lines and increased the number of one-party lines. Also, they have expended a good deal of money in the providing of new equipment, automatic exchanges, direct dialling systems and all that.

But lay that alongside the fact that in rural Manitoba -­ suburban Manitoba, if you like -- and the telephone service is still outrageous in terms of the number of subscribers per party line, and nothing much has been done ab out it. In some cases I would venture to say that the quality of telephone service in rural Manitoba in some areas has actually deteriorated, the number of subscribers per line having gone up rather than down. Page 1140 April lOth, 1963

(Mr. Schreyer, cont'd) •••• • In the part of the province that I am acquainted with, that I represent - at least part of the area that I represent --the number of subscribers per line still averages 11, 12, 13 - some of them high as 15 subscribers to the line. Upon the odd occasion when residents have asked for an improvement they have cut the number of subscribers, say for example from 14 to 9, only to have it build up again within a period of 10 months to a year, and they are back to where they started.

I would say that it's about time that the Telephone System people gave con­ sideration to a definite policy to reduce subscribers per line from 10 or 12 to about 3 or 4, and make it a.definite policy --work toward that goal. At the present time much of our telephone service in rural Manitoba, appreciated as it might be from time to time, is as much a source of cursing and frustration as it is a service. I really can't muster enough emphasis to indicate how strongly I feel about the simple lack of upgrading of telephone service in at least the part of rural Manitoba that I come from.

I'm not suggesting that they go all out and try to reduce all of these party lines from 12 or 13 subscribers to one overnight, but certainly they should progress toward two or three or four subscribers per line.

I am not sure that they are always realistic when it comes to making pro­ posals to people regarding the upgrading of service, especially along the Red River here where the people are living in suburban conditions; they com mute to work in the city; they are on a Winnipeg exchange; the number of subscribers, 10, 11 or 12 --they did upgrade it a couple of years ago --it went down to 7. 5 average, but it ·is climbing again.

So there's been considerable agitation requesting for a more substantial improvement and here is a proposal that was made to some of these people by the System, and I want to read this letter, Mr. Chairman. "Dear Sir:" --this is a telephone user out along the Red River in the narrow East St.

Paul area - "Dear Sir: We are pleased to announce plans to extend individual private line service into our Winnipeg multi-party service area, but this program will be carried out on a progressive basis during the next 12 months , the approximate date for your area being October 1963." Notice that it is an offer for private line service, and I don't think anybody really was expecting private line service just yet. They would like to have it re­ duced to three or four --not necessarily private lines. But anyway, Mr.

Speaker, to continue: "The service you request will be available to you at the monthly rate of $10.4 0, which includes your present equipment, etcetera, and a mileage charge applicable to all subscribers beyond our base rate area boundary. Since private line requires a separate pair of service wires for each circuit provided, additional construction costs are involved.

These construction charges, which would have to be borne by you, may be paid in either of two ways: (1) a lump sum of $810. 00 to be remitted with your first monthly bill after the new service has been installed; or (2) a monthly charge of $82.20 to be included with your regular monthly bill for a period of 12 consecutive months following the ins tallation of the new service." And then it. goes on. The point I am trying to make , Mr.

Chairman, is that while it is certainly looked forward to to have the number of subscribers reduced from the outrageous number it is at the present time to a more reasonable number like three or four --while this would be appreciated - no one is really expecting private line service and certainly not at this kind of going rate, which involves an initial outlay of $810. 00.

I wonder --as I say, I attack the entire basis upon which the Telephone System has been giving priorities in recent years and furthermore I attack them --certainly question them -if they are going to proceed on the basis that there should be no cost-sharing in the provision of telephone service. If each individual has to pay a sum such as that, then we might as well return to the old concept or ideas of each one paying the shot him­ self and getting away from the business of paying public taxes. But this is a public utility; it's a service; and I don't think it's a service when costs like this are involved.

So on those two counts I th:!Dk I have very good reason to make these rather serious charges. I would appreciate hearing from the Minister some indication as to what his views are with respect to the Motor Vehicle Branch and the Registrar's order impounding a vehicle, which I mentioned earlier; and secondly, what the Minister has to say regarding this rather completel y undesirable way of priority-deciding in the Te lephone System. MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman , I have but a few remarks to make at this time. I think that probably the Minister prefers it thus and then he can give all the answers later on.

The Honourable Leader of the NDP spoke about the all-number system, that is the dropping April lOth, 1963 Page 1141

(Mr. Desjardins, cont'd) ••••• of the exchange prefixes . I think there's a very good explana­ tion of this in the Annual Report. I certainly don't think that there is any blame to attach to any­ body. I don't think any blame should be placed on the shoulders of the Minister or the system. I think that the main reason for this is for this direct distance dialling and so I think that this is understandable. But I wonder if the Minister could tell us -- this report tells us that they will start this year in dropping some of the prefixes ; I think it will be 7, 000 that will go this year.

I wonder if there is any indication '-- if he knows in which order these will be dropped. It ·might sound like a small matter but !t hink that it could help a lot of people who are thinking of advertising and printing and so on -- business cards and so on. If this information is avail­ able, I think it would be well to inform the public. I think it would help those people quite a bit. I think also it is stated in one of the answers that we will be able to dial directly at least from Winnipeg starting in 164 - 165.

I wonder how long it would take when all these prefiXes will be dropped and all the equipment necessary will be available. · Then, still on the question of telephones, there is some question that comes up once in a while, it is the question of wire-tapping. Now, I understand that here in Canada in the federal field there is no law restraining or making provision for police tapping lines under special con­ ditions. Now, I'm told that different provinces are not too clear on that either. I'm not sug­ gesting at this time that there's never any occasion for wire-tapping, but I wonder if this is done.

I think we're entitled to receive this information, and under what conditions it is done. Does the law require these, I think they call it "beep devices" that would give an indication that there's som ebody listening in, and are there any penalties for doing this, for tapping without permission. I think that we should have some information, and if the laws are not quite clear, I think we should try to work with the Federal Government on this and have some uniform laws all over Canada.

Going back again on this telephone business, we're talking about having a plan fairly soon, number of years, the "all-number" calling, I wonder if eventually we will go back to this book "Who Called Me", if this will ever be made availab le. I've asked this question before, and I was told it was fairly costly, but I think that some people would be ready to pay a little more than they were a few years ago. I've heard a lot of people say that this book was very valuable and they'd like to see it come back.

Now maybe that shouldn't be done every year, but maybe it could be done once in a while. · On the question of car licenses, the Honourable Minister showed us a license plate, pro­ posed license plate for 1964. He didn't hold it up too long. I wonder if there's a year on that. Is there -- oh, there is a year. I guess his thumb was on it before. That's fine -- (Interjec-. tion) -- Does that represent Social Credit, or NDP, or -- (Interjection) -- You're not •••.•. There's a question of transfers of these plates also. I think that this also should be uniform. I understand that in B.

C. -- I don't know if this -- I was told that this information is correct -- I understand that in B. C. they will not issue a license there until you can produce a transfer from the previous owner, or the previous license, and of course here in Manitoba, these plates are kept, and I hear that it's very, very difficult to get -- if you buy a used car here in Mani­ toba it is very difficult to get a license in B. c. And I'm told that in Manitoba it's the other way around, that as long as you've got a serial number you get a plate. Now, as I say, I'm told that this information is right.

I wonder if the Minister can give us some information on this, and if this isn't the case, that might be again something where the different provinces could work together in this.' Then there's always been the question of the age you can issue a license -- I think it's -­ I know it's 18 now. In all the accidents and the reckless driving that we're having now, I would suggest and I would like the government to think about this -- I've mentioned this a few years ago.

I still think that it would be a good idea to issue a learner's permit to, up to the age, to 16 years old, between 16 and 18 years old, instead of giving a driver's license at 16 if we'd wait till the person was 18 and had a driver's license for awhile, I think it would be much bet­ ter. I think that a lot of fathers and mothers would be a lot happier too, because the kids wouldn't borrow the car so often. I think they'd be a little safer because they'd have to have somebpdy a little older to go with them, and I think that it would give them a chance to learn to drive a little better.

I think that we will have a reduction of accidents, and there's no reason why this can't be done. This is quite a weapon if somebody doesn't know how to drive, or is Page 1142 April lOth, 1963 I

(Mr. Desjard:lns, cont'd) .•••• not careful, and especially now there's so much liquor to be had, it seems to be so easy, and I'm not suggesting that that's anybody's fault, that' s not what I'm suggesting at this time, but it seems to be so easy for minors to obtain liquor and it seems that a car -- if you have a car, well then you have to have something "on the hip". I think it \Wuld be something to think about. I don't think it would bring any hardship on anyone if you could not obtain a license until you reach the age of 18.

It seems odd that you can't vote until you're 21, but you're driving a car when you're 16 . I think that maybe if we come down on this questi,on of voting to 18, and go up-- not get a license till you're 18. The.re's another question that I'd like to talk about, is the taxi licenses. I would like the Minister to tell me what is the maximum cars, taxis that is, permitted in Manitoba? I think that there hasn't been any revision since 1945 and I think it was frozen to 400 about that time. I'd like to know if this information is correct. And I would like also to know what is the cost of a taxi license .

Now I know the Minister will say there are none available, but what would be the cost of a taxi license if this was purchased from the province ? I ask this question. I agree that there should be a certain restriction on the amount of taxis. I think it's a good thing. Now, have we got the right number, are there enough of them? If we haven't done anything since 1945 -- now, I might be wrong -- this might have been changed since then -- but what I want to know also - smne of these taxis are in very, very poor condition.

Now one of the questions that I asked is, what is the cost of the license if this was purchased from the govern­ ment. 1 know that now you have to buy the car and the license from somebody that already has a license, this is the only way that you can get a license, and it's very, very difficult and some of these cars are wrecks. If we are going to have a certain maximum of cars, maximum licenses available, I think that we should have better inspection of these taxis, I think they should be in better condition and they should be able to give better service .

The people that have had these licenses for a long time don't worry because there is no compe tition to get them to improve their services, and this is certainly not a good state of affairs. MR . CHAffiMAN: Item 1 •• MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, .•• ••••• questions that he has on the deck now, hasn't he? MR� LYON: ••••••• still collect a few. I see the Honourable Member for Assiniboia getting up. MR . STEVE PATRICK (Assiniboia): Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Honourable Minister a few questions abo!lt the introduction of the Highway Safety Program.

I' m not too clear on it, or his introduction was somewhat ambiguous, I'm just not too clear if it's a driver training program, or if it's going to be instructions on rules and safety. He mentioned that this is -- we're not going to push the course, this is just strictly on a voluntary basis, and if anybody wants to take it, they can have it. Well my concern is are the teachers, hitve they got the knowledge that this course is available, and can they take this short course at Moose Jaw free of charge?

I think this knowledge should be made available to all the teachers so they can take advantage of this course -- the ones that are interested in it. I think all the people that are interested in taking the course, for instance in most high schools, should also have this knowledge available, that they can take it if they're interested in it, because at this point it seems to me the Department can furnish this only on request, and I' m just wondering if many of the schools are going to be aware of the fact they can have this course.

Now I'm quite interested in this, because certain other jurisdiction that have introduced and instituted this course have had really significant results. For instance, the Consumer's Gas Company in Toronto showed a reduction in their drivers' accident rate by about 50 percent after taking the course, The Highway Safety Course. Now, it is also my understanding in London the policemen, after they've ta:ken the course they reduced their mileage accident rate from about 9, 000 to 72, 000 , so I think thtS is really good results, and I think we should put it on a pretty good program.

Now, I have also a few other questions that I'd like to ask at this time . The Honourable Minister mentioned that we will have new license plates for 1964 -- I think it's real good news. The question I would like to raise: will these plates be purchased by tender -- the new automo­ bile license plates that we're going to be getting in 1964 -- my question is, will they be pur­ chased by tender? And what action has been taken on the licensing of the driving schools?_ And April lOth, 1963 Page 1143

(Mr. Patrick, cont'd) ••••• has the government a report on the License Suspension Appeal Board? I would like to know how many suspensions there were and how many rate statements . It seems to me there were a high percentage of rate stat ements . MR. S. PETERS (Elmwood): Mr. Cha irman, I didn't intend to speak on the Motor Vehicle Branch at th is time. I though t th at we could wait till we got to it. But everybody's asking questions at this time. I don't want to ask a question at this time.

I want to congratu­ late the Minister at this time for bringing in th is program of teach er, or the training of students, how to handle an automobile --it's just as dangerous as handling a rifle if you don't know the potentialities of it. At this time I would like to congratulate some of the members of the East Kildonan Police Department for the part that they have taken in instructing the students in the East Kildonan schools in learning how to drive. I know that East Kildonan will immediately take up the offer of the Minister on the training of teaching students how to drive.

I think this has been long .overdue; it's a very good idea, because an automobile is a very, very dangerous thing if you don't know how to handle it, and I'm glad th at the Minister's bringing it in. · MR. LYON: Mr. Chair man, if there are no other questions at the present ti,me I will attempt to give replies to a few that have been asked, and if I don't have sufficient material to answer fully all of the m, I will attempt to make a more complete answer when next we meet in Commi ttee. May ! say first of all that I appreciated the remarks of the Honourable Member of Caril­ lon with respect to the two utilities.

I realize that his criticisms of perhaps some of the public relations aspects of Manitoba Telephone System were of a local nature rathe r than a.g eneral nature.

I feel th at he intended them to be constructive and I take th em as such and can assure him that if he could give us any instances of th is type of complaint, I'm sUre the Manitoba Tele­ phone System would be anxious to look into the m and to see that he will have no cause for this type of complaint in the future, because of course that utility along with Hydro rathe r prides itself in the public relationship th at its employees and officers build up throughout the different communities of Manitoba in which they serve. I must say that by and large they m·aintain this reputation to a very high degree .

So we do look with, a great deal of care upon any criticism of · the nature such as was mentioned by the honourable member tonight. We appreciate him men­ tioning it and hope that he can give us details on it because certainly we're out to cure any at­ titude that may be prevalent th at Manitoba Telephone System people are not in th e various com­ munities that they are in in any capacity other than that of one of service .

He mentioned the question of rates --a quote, a particular quote, for 60, OOOkilowatt hours of electric power. !w ould like to have from him if it is possible some more detail as to the actual type of power that was being quoted for because generally Manitoba industrial rates are comparable to On tario's rates and it is certainly not usual, and in fact not really understand­ able, on the bare basis of the facts as he has given them to us, to have the kind of disparity th at he has indicated.

If he will give us some idea as to the location, the kind of load and so on that was required for th is quotation we will be more than happy to look into it because, as I say, the rates that he mentions do display a disparity which is uncomm on, indeed highly \In- usual, in Manitoba Hydro's experience, , Now the question of underground wires of course is a continuing matter with both of the utilities. I can tell the members of the Commi ttee that underground wiring is certainly some­ thing th at both of the utilities are deeply interested in.

It is not always apparent to the layman --and I include myself in that category --it is not always im mediately apparent at first blush this type of wiring is more expensive than the .traditional or standard type of overhead poles with wires strung along. One would think immediately if you buried a wire in the ground that that would be cheaper in terms of capital than going out and having a pole cut, treated, a hole dug, the pole put up, the crossarms put on it and the wires strung on it.

But the fact remains that those who are completely familiar with this situation tell us that the actual capital cost is highe r in terms of underground wiring. The capital cost of the wire itself is extremely high because of course there has to be sufficient insulation around these wires in order to protect the wiring from the ravages of being buried in the ground, the ravages of any chemical reactions th at take place and so on.

Then there is the further problem - again I say as a laymen, it seems" somewhat improbable at first blush but yet it is the case when one stops to. think of it.-­ that while damage can occur as it did occur very recently to long stretches of overhead wiring . Page 1144 April lOth, 1963 I

(Mr. Lyon, cont'd) .•••• both in Hydro and in the Telephone System and this damage requires a considerable amount of money to repair, yet when damage does occur to underground wiring that damage is extremely expensive to repair necessi tating first of all the location of the break or of the damage and then sec ondly of the repair of this particular damage underground. So I say that while at first blush this would appear to be -- underground wiring would appear to be a cheaper form of operation the facts are that it isn't.

Nonetheless underground wiring is made available to areas and to com munities and it is encouraged and fostered by both of the utilities in areas where a desire is expressed -- particularly new development areas and so on -- where a desire is expressed to start say a new com munity or a new subdivision entirely on this basis that service is certainly provided by both of the utilities.

From memory I can give only one example that I am aware of at the present time and I believe that is the Townsite of Pinawa -­ the new atomic energy towns ite which will have, as I believe, total underground wiring for this whole new com munity that will be building up. That is the type of operation that both of the utilities are encouraging. Now the honourable member mentioned the Grunthal situation, the fact that he has been in discussion with Manitoba Telephone System with respect to that area.

I don't claim to have a detailed knowledge of the particular problem nor of the background particularly with respect to any oral undertaking that may have been made at some time in the recent past or some time around the time when the syste m was taken over fr