LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 22 July, 1986. Time - 8:00 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN, M. Dolin: Committee, please come to order . We are on Page 50 , Resolution 46, Item 1. (b) - the Member for Ste. Rose du Lac. MR. G. CUMMINGS: There was a survey taken, I understand, by the department probably about two years ago. "Public Attitudes to Educa tion," was the surv ey. Is the Minister familiar with that? MR. CHAIR MAN: The Honour able Min ister of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, I know that we had a free wheel ing di scussion somewhat earlier this afternoon, however, the area where the question of planning and research comes up would be under Appropriation 1. (c). So if we could just proceed in perhaps some order this even ing, I would get to that question; perhaps the member could raise it at that time. MR. G. CUMMINGS: lt was related to some of the questions that you were answering, that's why I brought it up at this point. That's okay with me. MR.

CHAIRMAN: I think, as the Minis ter points out, we had a rather free wheeling general di scussion - certain philosophical base, etc. I think we should try and obey the rules. Rule 64(2) says that questions should be relatively specific to the item at hand. We are presently dealing with 1.(b); if there are no questions on 1.(b)- pass? HON. J. STORIE: I can answer that question generally but we can ... MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(

c) is the next item up. The Member for Fort Garry. HON. J. STORIE: What are we on - still 1.(b)? MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(b). MR. C. BIRT: Could the Minis ter explain what is included in this Executive Support and why there was an in crease in the salary allotment? HON. J. STORIE: The salary cost adjustment was basically related to normal merit and salary in creases. That accounts for the $11 .5 thousand in crease. There are nine staff attached to the Minister's and Deputy Minister's offices. MR. C. BIRT: I take it that this is the support staff for the Minister's and the Deputy Minister's offices? MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Minis ter nods in the affirmative. MR. C. BIRT: Could then the Mini ster just break it down, is it secretary, executive assistant; could he give me that breakdown please? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chair person, in my office there are a special and executive assistant, and Min ister's secretary and two secretaries. In the Deputy Min ister's office there is an executive assistant, an admin istrative secretary, and a secretary. That would give us a total of nine. MR. C.

BIRT: Could you tell me who the special assistant is, and the executive assistant is, to the Min ister, and who the executive assistant is to the Deputy? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, my executive assistant is Mr. Chris Galay; the special assistant is Lynne Toupin. The Deputy Minister's executive assistant is lrene Young. MR. C. BIRT: Is the executive assistant to the Deputy like a political executive assistant, or is that a Civil Service position filled by a civil servant? HON. J. STORIE: That's a Civil Service position, Mr. Chai rperson. MR. C. BIRT: 1. (b)-pass. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)( 1) -p ass; 1. (b)(2)- pass. 1.(c) - perhaps at this point, I'll recognize the Memb er for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: My question actually was along the philosophical lines, as you ind icated the di scussion was earlier. In the survey that I referred to, I understand, I'm told by my colleagues that the vast majority of the respondents did not feel that more money would improve the quality of education, and if additional funds became available to the government that education would come somewhere about fifth or sixth in their list of priorities.

If those are correct assumptions, how has the government decided , or how has the department dec ided to deal with those conclusions? Do you accept the fact tha t more funding will improve the quality of education? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chair person, appreciating that this poll, the results were conducted before my tenure, I'm not as familiar with the results as perhaps I should be.

Staff ind icate that along with the question about whether they would su pport additional funding for education, there was an additional question which said that if there was some way to assure that the qua lity of education would improve with additional spending, would it be supported. In those cases, the vast majority said yes, they felt that it would be worthwhile, which rai ses an int eresting 2094

Tuesday, 22 July, 1Q!l6 question about them and one that I'm sure has been raised in the member 's mind, as well members of the public 's mind about whether the additional money that is being spent is actually increasing the quality . I think it's safe to assume that the quality of education has improved over the past years and decades . It's also true that it's taking an increasing amount of money to sustain the system and there are a number of reasons for that as well . MR. G.

CUMMINGS: Are the increasing costs that the department is faced with, would you say then that they are mainly to sustain the system or are they, in your opinion, improving the system? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson , I don't know that I would want to make that final determinat ion with respect to every school division . Clearly , there are school divisions who have, for whatever reasons , rearranged their priorities , attempted to make the educational system more accountable and more effective in certain school divisions who have made changes within their own systems to accommodate that .

Others who have been less aggressive or perhaps more satisfied with their system have simply increased according to the needs of the current system. So it varies very much between divisions . It depends on how the trustees , the elected officials , the administration view the current system, basically whether it's adequate or lacking in some respect . MR. G. CUMMINGS: Well, I guess this does get into the area of the variance of funding between various school divisions and I would ask whether or not this is an area that you wish to discuss under Planning and Research.

Other than this survey, are there other figures to show - or any surveys that have been done - the relative effectiveness of various jurisdictions, various divisions across the province? HON. J. STORIE: I'm not aware of any major survey that has been undertaken . There has been no major survey undertaken by the department with respect to the public's attitude toward education .

However, I believe the member has access, or I will certainly get the member a copy of some work that has been done by Research and Planning with respect to a survey of graduates of post-secondary institutions in Manitoba, part of a larger study that was done by Statistics Canada, which shows that our community colleges in particular are doing an exceptionc1I job amongst community colleges across Canada . But in respect to the public school system, there is less firm data and I guess other than comments one hears from time to time from the system itself and from the university system, very little concrete data.

MR. G. CUMMINGS: I would defer further questions if this is not the correct area to raise these questions . I'm thinking in terms of the ability of divis ions to pay and combined with their ability to provide quality education . I really wonder if the department has done anything in the last year or two to determine whether or not there is a level of funding that is practical across the province for funding of school divisions in var ious jurisdictions or . .. MR.

CHAIRMAN: If I could suggest to the member , it would seem probably that this would be most appropriate under 3., which is Financial Support - Public Schools. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Well, I'm talking also curriculum, however. I can defer the question till later if you wish, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, if the Minister wants to respond to you now? If you want to get into it, it seems more appropriate under 3., but I think that would be between the committee member and the Minister . MR. G. CUMMINGS: If I could just clarify that a little bit, I'm trying to determine also what other areas this branch gets into. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Research and Planning? MR. G. CUMMINGS: Yes. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, Research and Planning, basically its activities are assumed by its name . It's involved in preparing data base material for various branches within the departmen t, for analysis on funding questions , on assessment questions, on other issues that are raised from time to time within the department. I could go t hrough and list some of the accomplishments as seen by the division.

I think it would be equally possib le for the member to refer to the annual report of the department for some of the major accomplishments, but the branch is involved in essentially tasks as assigned in terms of determining specific statist ics on any asp ect of the educational system , whether it's graduates or other aspects. l\l!R. C. BIRT: In the

preamble on Item No. 1, it says, " . . . and provides strategic and operational planning and policy support for the department." Does all of the strategic and oper ationa l planning and policy support flow out of Resear ch and Planning for the entire department? HON. J. STORIE: No, I don 't think that would be accurate. Essentially , the Research and Planning prepares the data base for any particular problem that the department wishes to address.

So if we wished to address the ques tion of assessment of science curriculum, Research and Planning would then be responsible for pulling together the background information, any available data that comes by way of assessment activities within the department, compare it with interprovincial statistics or whatever. That would go again to the relevant bra nch where senior management and senior personnel across the department would be involved in developing additional policies based on informat ion obta ined . MR. C.

BIRT: Then does each other division or department have its own sort of policy research area that creates the policy? 2095

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 HON. J. STORIE: In essence, what you have is a team of people in the department, senior management, who interact very closely in developing polic y. Whether you'r e talking about the Curriculum Branch or Child Care and Dev elopment, the information base would come from Research and Planning. Any addit ional questi ons related to or flowing from the mana gement, the executive if you will, di scussions would be reviewed by Research and Planning and reported back to be a part of, or a form, of foundation for any policy issues. MR. C.

BIRT: Would it be fair to say then that all legislation would flow through this office, then to the Deputy Minister's office? HON. J. STORIE: Not legislation, no. Perhaps, however, if we were talking about new legislation which we were devel oping and we were assumably basing it, or there was a necessity to base it on some statistical research data, then obviously that branch would be in volved; but in essence, they act as a backup to the poHcy makers in each of the branches and the executive of senior management and the Minis ter to act as an assist. MR. C.

BIRT: You used the word "data base." Then is this like a resource li brary of information then to the other departments? Is that my understanding? HON. J. STORIE: Could I just provide an example? The department, or the Research and Planning Branch, was asked to prepare some information for myself and the previous Minis ter on the status of immigr ant professionals. The question was: are we moving quickly enough to make sure that profes sionals who come here from other parts of the world have their credentials verified, etc.?

Are there profess ionals out there who could be working in our system or profes sionals who could be working in other professional capacities in the province who are being left, in a sense, in limbo? So what we want then is a data base. We want to know how many people may or may not be affect ed, how many people there are in the province. That kind of information is invaluable in forming policy. MR. C.

BIRT: I'm trying to determine the dimensions of the department in the sense that if I wanted to know about how you're trying to establish the high school review or this quality of education, would this be the area in which we would be asking those specific questions or would that fall into other areas? Because I don't see any other Research and Planning area in the department. HON. J. STORIE: We ll, I think we're talking about the review, at least in its initial phase, is going to be much more broadly based than a statistical review of what's going on in the province.

However, I would certainly see Research and Planning being inv olved in reviewing what's going on in other provinces, in pulling together information, for example, on career patterns into the 21s t Century being used as a gatherer of information and providing the first level of analysis in support of the work that the commit tee will be doing, or in the work that individual branches are doing. MR. C. BIRT: The Minis ter provided me with a couple of copies of some research done, I presume, by the same department, one relating to grad su rvey, and one for universities, and one for trade and voca tional.

Is this the type of research document that is produced by the department on an annual basis? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, that particular piece of research came about as a resu lt of some data sharing between Stats Canada and the province. There is no set agenda, if you will, for Research and Planning. They respond very much to the interests and the needs of the branches, the Minis ter of the government. MR. C. BIRT: So there are no, sort of annual su rveys or research documents that they produce on a regular basis; it's just information as requested? HON. J. STORIE: That's correct.

I would assume, and I think the member has alluded to this in his question, that much of the activity of Research and Planning over the next 12 to 18 months will, in fact, focus on the questions that are being raised by the High School Review in particul ar. MR. C. BIRT: Then does it flow back into here, or do we ask those questions later on in the Estimates? We want to get specifics. If it's sort of an ancilla ry aspect to the larger issue, then we'll deal with those issues in a more appropriate spot. That's what I'm really trying to get at. HON. J.

STORIE: Given that essentially we would be dealing with hypotheticals in terms of their involvement in any case, we could perhaps deal with the fundamental question of the review at a later da te. MR. C. BIRT: I had asked at the beginning of this afternoon's deliberation that the Minis ter giv e me some information about the allocation and review of, I think, it's called the Canadian Jobs Strategy Plan, does that fall into this area or is that another separate area again? HON. J. STORIE: lt would normally fall under the post­ second ary and adult continuing education. MR. C.

BIRT: I'll deal with it then because I want to get into a series of questions on it. HON. J. STORIE: That's fine. Don't forget that one. MR. C. BIRT: Can the Minister tell me how many staff man years are in volved in this department? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, there are 11 staff years inv olved in this appropriation. MR. C. BIRT: Are there any vacancies or are they all filled? HON. J. STORIE: At the present time, there are no vacancies. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin- Russel l. MR. L. DERKACH: Is this the department where future curriculum planning is done by? 2096

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 HON. J. STORIE: Curriculum Development. MR. CHAIRMAN: 4.(b). MR. L. DERKACH: Does this department have anything to do in terms of the research that goes into the implementation or the bringing about of new curriculum in the future? HON. J. STOJUE: Not normally, Mr. Chairperson. Two years ago , apparently, the branch did a review of curriculum implementation, an evaluation, but they are not involved per se in the development process. MR. L. DERKACH: Does this department gather information on things like provincial testing, the results of provincial testing?

Do they compile that kind of information and make that available to the department? HON. J. STORIE: The answer is no. Generally, those questions would be better asked under 16(4); 16(4) is Curriculum Assessment. MR. CHAIRMAN: There 's no 16(4). It's 4.(b) - the Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. L. DERKACH: My question is: is there any connection between this departmen t and the Curriculum Development Department in terms of, do they provide that area with any research? HON. J.

STORIE: As I indicated before, the Planning and Research Branch provides support to the various branches , so there would be some data collection and some again first-level analysis . But the branches themselves establish the policy and set the direction , if you will. MR. L. DERKACH: For example, the pre-kindergarten testing that has gone on throughout the province , has this department done anything in assessing the value of that kind of testing throughout the province for pre­ kindergarten children? HON. J.

STORIE: I presume the member's referring to the Early Identification Program which some divisions operate . MR. L. DERKACH: Yes, that's part of it. HON. J. STORIE: The Research and Planning have not been involved in that recently , although there was some early involvement, I understand, several years ago in some of the preparatory work . MR. L. DERKACH : So the parameters of this department have changed then in the last year. Is that what you're saying? HON. J. STORIE: I think the explanation is that this branch, in essence, does the groundwork for many other departments.

Once we're into the implementation phase, it's back to the department for implementation. So while the branch was involved at some point in designing the assessment tools that were perhaps used in the Early Identificatio n Program , it is impleme nted and its development has since become a part of Child Care and Development. MR. L. DERKACH: Then in the area where the Department of Education has decided to now undertake the building of day care facilities and add them to the schools and sort of encompass that in the Department of Education's paramete rs, did the research for that take place in this department?

HON . . J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson . MR. L. DERKACH: Then can the Minister tell me where specifically the planning and research for that concept came from? HON. J. STORIE: The assessment of the needs come s from the Department of Community Services and Correc tions. They establi sh the necessity . There has to be obviously a core group , an interest group interested in proceeding. It then falls to the school division to become interested , indicate their willingness to become involved , but I'm not sure in what area you would see Research and Planning be involved . They certainly haven't been to date . MR. L.

DERKACH: At the present time , as I understand it, the capital funding for nursery and day care facilities com es out of the Depa rtment of Education. It's funded directly by the Department of Education. My question is : was Research and Plann ing involved in the development of th is concept , whereby the Department of Educatio n would undertake the responsibility of funding the capital portio n of nursery and day care facilities? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson .

It's a small point , but the fund ing for the additional capital dollars for the day care s which are attached to schools comes from the Public Schools Finance Board, who does the assessment of the building and provid es the capital for construction . But again , I indicate that the needs assessment , a dec ision to provide spaces comes from Community Service s. That is essentiall y where the impetus arose, and the needs and the assessment will and has been done and will be done by the Department of Community Services . They 're the ones who allocate day care spaces, not the Department of Education. MR. L.

DERKACH: Well, then, can I ask the Minister to give us some furth er elaborati on as to what the 11 staff years do in terms of their parameters? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I indicated that there are eight profess ional staff , three support staff.

Part of their mandate would be to coordinate depar tmenta l planning , as I've indicated and we've discussed some options ; environment al scanning session for directors in the department; in other words, identifying potential issues; identifying areas that are in need of research evaluation; developing proposals again; flush ing out proposals, if you will, from senior staf f in other branches ; working with other branches; de veloping pol icy 2097

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 statements, for example, the one on AIDS; conducting training sessions on gr aph ics production, word proce ssing, commu nication skills, those kinds of things; developing a data base - again, I've mentioned this as an important activity of the department - data base dealing with educational funding, enrolment, staffin g, teacher mobil ity, all kinds of demographics, part of which may be used by the department, information which is often requested from us by teachers, school divisions.

They're responsible as well for revie wing, assessing the technology that's used within the department, the appropriateness thereof; developing informational bulletins for school divisions, for their own purposes, information on com puters, software, etc .; doing evaluation such as an analy sis of the Statistics Canada data on post-secondary education - I mentioned this one - conducting the study of immigrant profession als; conduct analysis of student academic record syst ems, making recommendations to the department. Basical ly, it's duties as assig ned.

When you're talking about research , it is extremely time-con suming. They act as a backup to professional staff in every department, to the senior management, the executive, the Min ister, as part of the foundation upon which policies are based. MR. L. DERKA CH: Then is this the department that did the planning and the research for finding out the number of teachers there are who are going to retire in any specific year? Did they do the planning and the research on teacher retirement? HON. J. STORIE: They were involved. MR. L.

DERK ACH: So, therefore, do you have information now in terms of the number of teachers who are going to be retiring at the age of 55 within this year, and how many are going to retire in the next five years? HON. J. STORIE: I think it's 248. MR. L. DERKACH: What's 248? HON. J. STORIE: The number of teachers who are going to retire this year . MR. L. DERKA CH: What about subsequent years? HON. J. STORIE: We can have that data for you tomorrow. MR. L. DERKACH: So, therefore, is that the department that will also know the costs impacted by the ret irement of these teachers? HON. J.

STORIE: Well, that's not necessarily the department, but that's the Research and Planning Department. They can find out. MR. L. DERKACH: Okay. One last question, what is that department working on right now? Is there any specific project that department is working on right now? HON. J. STORIE: They have given me too many here.

For example, right now we're very much involved in evaluation of the changes tha� we have made in the PACE, the community college system ; looking at the effectiveness of the individualized competency-based learning programs that have been introduced; trying to assess the impact of our Affirmative Action policies; gathering information on numbers of students, tracking students, etc. So that's an example of the kind of thing that they're involved in at the current time.

They're also very much involved in developing tools to assist the department in the evaluation of numerous programs that are operat ing, and where requests have come in, say, we need an instrument that will tell us how we're doing in this area for this program or that program. I read off some of the kinds of things that MR. L. DERKACH: So is this the department that is going to, in essence, establish the criteria for such things as the High School Review? HON. J. STORIE: No. What the Research and Planning team would do is say, here's something we' re trying to achieve.

Let's say, we're trying to get more Native students, more hand icapped students into our commu nity college system. Track over a number of years, saying how have we done? What's the data base? How many were there in 1980? How many are there now? Where have they come from? What has been most effective in getting them? What supports did they require? So that we can build that into planning for more effective student services in the communi ty colleges.

The Planning and Research Branch may, in fact, be involved in the High School Review when the commi ttee itself, the review panel or review committee, starts to deal with the issues and wants to know how many high schools have vocational training capabil ity. What kind of training are they capable of? How many students are currently involved in training? What is happening to those students with that training? Is that training proving effective in the job market, or are they having to take additional training?

So those are the kinds of questions that they would be asked by the review commi ttee, but it would be referred to them. They would not initiate per se. MR. L. DERKACH: Have there been any new positions added into this department? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chai rperson. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you.

I'm trying to find a com parison between the chart on Ma nitoba Education on Page 4 of the annual report and this, and I'm having difficulty, because in fact, if one looks at Admini stration and Finance, one would see Research and Planning, but here Admin istration and Finance are in fact on the same line. So who does Research and Planning, in fact, report to? HON. J. STORIE: The Deputy Min ister . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: So it would be directly to the Deputy Min ister? 2098

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 HON. J. STORIE: Yes. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Do any of the other post­ secondary, adult, PACE program or Administration and Finance itself have their own Assistant Deputy Ministers, or are there no Assistant Deputies in the Department of Education? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, there are four Assistant Deputy Ministers, and I can name them all except one. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I don't really want their names. What I'd really like to know is: where in the line graph do they fall? HON. J.

STORIE: There is an Assistant Deputy Minister of Administration and Finance, Assistant Deputy Minister of Programming, Assistant Deputy Minister of the Bureau de !'Education Francaise, Assistant Deputy Minister of PACE, Post-secondary Adult Continuing Education . MR. G. CUMMINGS: Under the Planning and Research Department, the information that's compiled there , you indicated that some of that would be for consumption of school divisions. Is there a considerable amount of information that goes out of there for public consumption? Is that information generally available for public consumption? HON. J.

STORIE: From time to time, there are studies that are made public . The Member for Fort Garry, I believe, has a couple that have been made public . I think if you checked in the Legislative Library, you would find quite a few studies that had been made available or made public over the past number of years . MR. G. CUMMINGS: Is there any amount of money under Other Expenditures that is designated for publication of public information? HON. J. STORIE: Not specifically this year, Mr. Chairperson, no. MR. G. CUMMINGS: One last question from me in this area, he indicated there had been no staff change this year.

Was there in the last three years an expansion of this area? HON. J. STORIE: I believe it's dropped one position in the last two years . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Can the Minister tell me the kinds of personnel they're looking for here in Research and Planning? I ask that question specifically knowing that, in Curriculum and Development, it is most frequently people who are trained as teachers . HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson , generally I'm informed that the professional staff, they are looking for people with educational experience as broad as possible, but also a background in the social sciences with research methodology background as well. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: That 's fine . MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(c)(1)- pass; 1.(c)(2)- pas s. 1.(

d) Personnel Services - the Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you . Could the Minister advise the number of staff persons involved in this division , please? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, there are eight staff involved; no change from the previous year. MR. C. BIRT: Could the Minister give a breakdown? Is it all support staff? Is it professional staff? HON. J. STORIE: I'm having a little trouble here defining what a professional is. If a payroll supervisor is a professional, there would be five and three. MR. C. BIRT: Five professionals and three support staff? HON. J. STORIE: Depending on the definition .

I'm having a little trouble with the position title . MR. C. BIRT: Could the Minister explain really what the function of this department is? HON. J. STORIE: Well , the Personnal Services Branch functions in a support capacity to departmental management and to employees of the department. The branch administers the Affirmative Action Program and coordinates wha t is called a CAMEO program, which is the Career Advanc eme nt Manitoba Educat ion Opportunities , to enhance upward mobility for clerical suppor t within the department and provides other personnel and payroll services . MR. C.

BIRT: Did the Minister say this is the area that looks after the affirmative action for the department or is it just the collection of statistics in a suppor t sense? I wasn 't clear what he was ... HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Chairperson, it is responsible for implementing the affirmative action policy and providing whatev er necessary support services are required. MR. C. BIRT: Could the Minister advise just exactl y what this division does as it relates to affirmative action and give us greater detail? HON. J.

STORIE: I suppo se one of the function s of any branch that's responsible for affi rmative action is to ensure that when there is a bulletin , when ther e is a candidate search , that affirmative action candida tes' qualificatio ns, etc. , are reviewed and that there are not unnecessary impediment s to the advancement , the hir ing of groups who would fall within the parameters of affirmat ive action groups . MR. C. BIRT: Does not the Civil Service Commis sion have the responsibility of the Affirmative Action Program? Is this a duplication?

I'm trying to figur e o ut why you would have it here and not in the Civil Service 2099

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 Commission, or maybe it's not in the Civil Service Commission. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairp erson, it is both in effect . The Civil Service Commis sion has the prime resp onsibil ity, but within each department there is also a resp onsibility to make an additional effort to ensure that bulletins are widely di spersed, to make sure that candi dates that are referred meet with the overall government objectives.

I don't think we can have too many people working to ensure that affirmative action is a reality. it's not a main function of this department as I ind icate. lt is only one of many that Personnel Services is res ponsible for. MR. C. BIRT: How many people of the eight are primarily resp onsible for the affirmativ e action? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairp erson, just one person, and again, only part of that person's activi ty. MR. C. BIRT: Pay equity has just started its way through the Civil Service Commission in government.

Would this department, Personnel Services, be resp onsible for the pay equity negotiations and discussions within the department or is it looked after someplace else? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chai rperson, of course, the Pay Equity Bureau has again the resp onsibility for leading in that sense, but this branch, yes, would be involved in any interdepartmental discussions with respect to pay equ ity. MR. C. BIRT: So they would be respon sible for the in ternal department aspect of the pay equity? HON. J.

STORIE: Yes, this branch would be resp onsible for provi ding information, assisting in whatever way they can to the Pay Equity Bureau in their efforts. MR. C. BIRT: There is an incr ease of some $7,000.00. Is it just a cost-of-living incr ease in salary? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairp erson. MR. C. BIRT: And were all the positions filled throughout the year? HON. J. STORIE: One was filled in the last three or four months, but there is a full complement apparent ly. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was int erested in the CAMEO .

I find in education everyt hing has letters to it and they're awfully hard to remem ber. I wonder if he could explain it a bit more fully. HON. J. STORIE: Essential ly, what they are trying to do is identify with in the staff of the depar tment individuals who have obvious poten tial for advancement and, in essence, to develop a career plan for individuals for advancement through the system into different levels of employment. They have a number of different approaches that they use.

There are training opportunities which may be provided to these people, in- house training opportunities; courses that are offered through the Civil Service Commis sion simply involving them at another level with other depart mental members; there are lateral job exchanges that can occur, job rotat ion. There is also, I suppose, the potential for part-time and fill-in term staff years in other areas of the department. They try and really maintain some flexibility within the staf fing, and it's not only for secret arial positions, but other lower level positions can see a path in the Civil Service for advancement.

MRS. G. HAMMOND: I guess we can assume that most of the clerical, the lower end of the scale, an yway, workers. would be women in those positions. Is there any encouragement also for job sharing? Is that part of the affirmative action and helping women to sustain work while they're possibly raising children? HON. J. STORIE: We ll, Mr. Chai rperson, I don't think that the Personnel Branch would rule anything out that could be worked in, again remembering that this is for advancement generally within.

However, if someone is work ing on a part-time basis, or whatever, and opportunities became available and this person fit and could work into a job-sharing opportunity, I'm sure there'd be no problem. I'm not sure that that's happened to this point but it raises an int eresting possi bil ity. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I'm just wondering if the Min ister would consider having it as part of the policy so that women would know that this is one of the possibilities that they could look at at the same time if they want to continue or need to continue working and yet are able to do it on a part-time basis, that job sharing is a consideration that they might look to. HON. J. STORIE: As a matter of fact, I mis informed the comm ittee. I understand that there is a situation where job sharing is actually occurring in a school, as it turns out, Falcon Lake School, but we directly administer it and it's part of our jurisdiction.

MRS. G. HAMMOND: Has there been any upward movement of clerical into higher positions at this point? HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, Mr. Chairp erson, four people have already made advancements. There have been some significant movements, yes. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Could the Minis ter ind icate the levels that these movements have been made, like from where to where? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairp erson, three of the four individuals began at the secretarial level and have moved to adminis trative officer level. The fourth moved from a secretarial to a personnel officer. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr.

Chairman, with respect to secondment, is this the department that also is involved in the secondment of staff for the depart ment? 2100

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 HON. J. STORIE: Yes, in a peripheral way. Personnel Services obviously are resp onsible for the payroll and would make sure that whatever secondment took place that the rules were under stood and there was an agreement in place between the department and the school di vision or whatever; but, initial ly, the impetus for the exchange, if you will, or the secondment, would come from a department, perhaps Curriculum Branch or Regional Services or whatever. MRS. S.

CARS TAIRS: Why does the Personne l Services Branch not look after the pers onnel who are in the PACE Program and, if they don't, why doesn't that show up in a budgetary item under PACE? HON. J. STORIE: We're not sure. lt actually does. The Personnel Services now is responsible for the PACE division as well. I couldn't resist that, I'm sorry. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Just to go on from that, then, does administration and finance, under PACE, also now go back into Admini stration and Finance, or has that remai ned a separate department? HON. J.

STORIE: Yes, there are certain functions, some functions, that are done on a department-wide basis; . other functions within PACE are done within their own Admin. and Finance section. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(d)(1)- pass; 1.(d)(2)- pass. 1.(

e) Financial Services - the Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: The Mi nister provided us with a copy of the annual report that is either at the printers or on the way to the printers. One of the sheets sort of giv es a schematic dia gram of the department. There's a new box created called "I nternal Mana gement Audit Branch," yet it doesn't show on current operating expenses; but there's also a Fina ncial Services, Finance Branch, which I presume is the item up here under Admi nistration and Finance Division.

Has the department been split or is this a brand new department and, if it is, why isn't there a separate line for it in the Estimates? HON. J. STORIE: The Internal Audit group is a part of this di vision and the figures are amalgamated in the figu res that you have before you, but they were not last year, or they were last year for the first year last year. MR. C. BIRT: We re they a separate di vision and they've been merged or they've been moved out of the Financial Services Department or whatever? HON. J. STORIE: They are a

section within the Financial Services Branch and have been for two years. MR. C. BIRT: But the schematic that is here shows the Internal Ma nagement Audit Branch answeri ng, I take it, directly to the Deputy Min ister. So that doesn't seem to square with what the Mini ster says. HON. J. STORIE: lt reports to the Deputy Min ister but the operational end of it is through the branch and the ADM. 2101 MR. C.

BIRT: Why was the Internal Mana gement Audit Branch created or, alternat ively , or as a second question I should say, why would it be shown as a separate enti ty, then, on this proposed schematic and not broken out separately in the financial figures we've got in the Estimates? HON. J. STORIE: lt's a very small branch performing, obvious ly, the internal audit function.

I presume that it's shown on the schematic because it is important, certainly important to the department and important to the government as a whole and the Provincial Auditor. lt's simply shown in that way but it has been a part of the Financial Services now for a couple of years. I don't kno w if I can giv e you any more detailed explanation as to why it has shown up in the schematic in that particular way other than to highlight the fact that it exists and to show its reporting relationship. MR. C. BIRT: Was this set up as sort of an extension or to work with the Provincial Auditor?

Was it as a request of the Provincial Auditor? I mean, why did it come into place, and does it have a relationship to the Provincial Auditor's Department? HON. J. STORIE: We ll, Mr. Chairperson, as the member appreciates, the department deals with many millions of dollars. The In ternal Audit group serves a function within the department by keeping managers abreast of the account ing, making sure the procedures are consistent and followed according to the Manual of Admin istration.

They would also be the group that would respond to enquir ies from the Provincial Aud itor, requests from the Provincial Audit or, etc. MR. C. BIRT: I'm not trying to simplify the Auditor's function and, as I understand, the accou nting function within government but primarily , if you wanted to make an exp enditur e and there was no approved authority for it, then it wouldn't get proces sed. If that's my understanding of how primarily the accounts flow in the government, is it this job to say, yes you have the authority; yes you can spend it? In other words, there is some allocation. Yes, it's in the Estimates.

You'v e got your Order-in-Council or whatever it is. In other words, it's sort of a fail-safe system? HON. J. STORIE: Normally the audit is basically an accounting after the fact of the expen ditur es of the department or the branches. In essence, the In ternal Audit function is to ensure that the monies are accounted for, monies as expended are accounted for in a comprehensive and thorough way. So they would not, as a matter of course, be involved in preau thorizing per se the expenditures. That would normally be done for any large amounts through Treasury Board, I presume.

I'm advised as well that the departmental accounting services within this branch would normally ensure that the proper procedu res were followed in the approvals that are necessary for exp enditure. MR. C. BIRT: Could the Min ister just tell us how many are in the Internal Man agement Audit, and then how many are in, I guess, the rest of the Financial Services Department?

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, accounting for the 25 people, I can inform the member that there has been no change in staff years as opposed to last year. There are four staff years in the Internal Audit Division, seven staff years in Budgeting and Accounting, and 14.26 staff years in Finance. MR. C. BIRT: There is a $37,000 approximate incr ease in expenditure over last year. Why the large in crease? HON. J. STORIE: lt reflects the general merit and salary incr eases. MR. C. BIRT: Okay, thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (e X1)- pass; 1(eX2)-pass. 1. (

f) Computer Services - the Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you. In last year's Estima tes in the Salaries, it was estimated there would be 1. 02 million, and I take it the lef t-ha nd fig ure sh own in this one is the actual expenditure of $974,200.00. Why the difference between the estim ated and the actual? HON. J. STORIE: Over the course of the year, there have been a two, almost three, staff year reduction. MR. C.

BIRT: Is this reduction as a result of that jobs were no longer necess ary, or is it due to attrition and they haven't been filled, or there was a designa ted cutback of a certain number of positions? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairman, one of the positions was tr ansferred to Admin istra tion and Te acher Certification. The remainder of a year position was elimina ted, because the arrangements had been made for students at Red River Community College to basically input their own data on their computers.

There was a change in the student records procedures at the department, which allowed for the reduction of an additional staff. MR. C. BIRT: What was the reason for the transferring of one SY out of this di vision into the Te acher Certification Program? HON. J. STORIE: There has been a transfer of some resp onsi bilit y from this

section to the Te acher Certification and Records, and a staff position was transferred with that respons ibil ity . MR. C. BIRT: Can the Mini ster give us a brief history of what this department does? HON. J. STORIE: We ll the department's, I guess, titled major accomplishments have included the Professional School Personnel System. This was enhanced during 1985 to include teacher experience information.

I'm not sure if the member is familiar with that service, but the department compiles a great deal of information on a teac her's histor y, class size, all kinds of information relating to the school system through this department. lt's made available on a confidential basis to the 2102 Manitoba Teac hers' Society, and divisions can access this data for their own information. As well the Manitoba Student Aid system, over the last couple of years, has been computeriz ed.

Previous ly, individual files were prepared and kept over the course of correspondence with the student. lt is now compu terized, and the department has been involv ed in that by this branch. The Public Schools Fina nce Board's financial record­ keeping system has also been enhanced by this branch. A micro-computer version of the Public Schools Finance account system, called FRAME, was introduced. This mi cro-computer version allows school divisions the option of submit ting their budgets and fi nancia l statements electronical ly, improving I guess the feedback between the department and school divisions.

A fully integ rated computer system was implemented for processing of college students' records. I should indi cate that much of this, in its effect, will allo w us to reduce personnel as we computerize much of the record-keeping across the system. An Information Centre has been established at the Robert Fletcher Building, 11 81 Portage. Those are some of the major accomplishments. MR. C.

BIRT: The information that is taken in, it's person identification; in other words, the information that you receive, you could identify it as Te acher A or Te acher B or is it in a generic safe sense that, you know, there are 20 teachers using 30 students in School X; in other words, it's a safe type of information where you can't get personal identification? HON. J.

STORIE: Individu als can be identified; however, there is a confidentiality arrangement, an understood arrangement, between the Te achers' Socie ty, and, for example, an individual school division would have access to its own data which it could compile any way, but new school division X would not have access to school division Y's data. MR. C. BIRT: I guess the concern that I have is the degree of protection of that confidential ity.

Is it built into the computer system - I'm presuming this is all on compu ters - and that when people access in, such as a school division, does it only have a certain key or access and the other ones are not available to it? That would be one area. The other area of concern would be to ensure that people such as the Te achers' Society do treat that information on a confidential basis. HON. J. STORIE: The indi vidual interdivisional data is separated and there is protection against accidental release of that information.

To my knowledge, there have been no problems with the confidentiality of the information and the Computer Services Department has gathered that information for many years. MR. C. BIRT: So I take it, as the information is fed in from whatever source, the department can access it and use it for its own basis. When people who are not departmental then from the outside, whether they be Manitoba Te achers' Society or any other organization, what is in place then to protect? Is ther e some sort of

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 an in surance agreement, some undertaking? How do you ensure the protection, the anonymity of the data? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I understand - staff informed me - that there is a formal agreement between the department and MTS with respect to confidential ity.

I should ind icate that MTS mem bers are the ind ividuals filling out these forms and providing this information in the fir st ins tance, so it would be rather counterproductive for th at kind of breach of confidentiality on the part of MTS. lt has been a fairly secure system and, as I've said, I filled those forms out some 10, 12 years ago and, to my knowledge, there has not been any problem. MR. C. BIRT: Other than the immedia te users in the educational system, are there any other people who can access the data base for research purposes? I'm talking other than school divisions or the Te ac hers' Socie ty.

HON. J. STORIE: Not without our authorit y. MR. C. BIRT: Do they enter into a similar type of a protection agreement or a confidentiality agreement should that occur? HON. J. STORIE: They would have to. MR. C. BIRT: The Mi nister ind icated tha t as use of the comp uters incr eases, there will be a reduction in staff. Has the Mini ster some projection in the next two, three, four years as to reduction in numbers or the transferring of staff positions out of here because of that use of comp uters? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, without wishing to advance the Estimates deba te beyond 1.(e), just an informal example, the Student Aid Branch has dealt with a dramatic incr eased caseload of student aid application s and they have been able to do so withou t a significant incr ease in staff, in fact I don't think any ,

whereas in effect they have doubled the productivity of the branch. The alternative would have been to hire X number of more people, and perhaps we're talking in the neigh bourhood of 7 to 10 people. So that's only one example. The same is true in the Lib rary, the Instructional Resources Branch Centre as well. Mr. Cha irperson, another example - a more concrete one perhaps - is that the automation that's occurred with student marks and teacher files has allo wed the reduction of six staff years over the last three years. MR. C. BIRT: The Mi nister ind icated though tha t ther e would be some reduction.

His first two examples related to sort of greater productivity because of the computers. The second one, over the last few years, there's been a phasing out of some six positions. But his comments were to the effect that there would be further reductions in this area as we use more computers I'm just wondering what sort of projections are they looking at as far as staff reductions in this particular division. HON. J. STORIE: Again, the area of records keeping, general ly, whether we're talkin g about teacher certification . MR. C. BIRT: I'm sorry, I'm dealing with numbers. HON. J. STORIE: Specifics? MR. C.

BIRT: Ye s. If there are 12 people there, are we going to be doing away with 3? That's the sort of thing I'm looking for. HON. J. STORIE: I can only give you the specifics that have happened. I was referring to generally that this branch ha s provided us with services wit hin the department that have allo wed these kinds of reductions. I've given two examples where they have, in effect, saved staff years for the department, either saved us from adding additional staff years or, in fact, al lowed us to reduce staff years. We 're at the be ginning.

We have by no means comp leted the potential for automation in the department. lt has a tremendous records keeping capacity across departments, but I coul dn't give the member a specific number other than it will be an ongoing process of reduction. MR. C. BIRT: The Min ister made reference to I think something called FRAME, which is I believe a method of system budgeting for school di visions, and he ind icated that some are now onto computer where the di vision is conside red ind irectly.

Is this the budgetary system tha t the divisions have to have in, I think it's about the 15th of February each year and, if it is, how many are actually using this process? HON. J. STORIE: I'm informed that every school division submits its budget and financial system on the FRAME system. MR. C. BIRT: So then if there are any questions or changes in the budget ary system, and there may not be, is it all done electronically? Is it sort of like the electronic hig hway, they speak back and forth, or is it just the sending in of information and the department then uses it for their own purpose? HON. J.

STORIE: That would only be true where the division had opted to use the micr ocomputer version of FRAME, and then there would be that abili ty. Not all divisions are using that system. There is still a manual system and the budgets are submitted through the normal course. MR. C. BIRT: How many are on the electronic process and is the department trying to encourage all of the divisions to get on it and, if so, what are they doing to encourage them? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, we cer tainly are encouraging the use of it because it facilita tes our work in terms of it streamlines, I guess, the process, and we are working with MASBO, which is the Ma nitoba Association of School Business Officials, to facili tate the development of that syste m. 2103

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 MR. C. BIRT: The number I had asked, is it a third, half, or more that are on the electronic system? HON. J. STORIE: Almost a half. MR. C. BIRT: Could the Min ister advise how many staff years are in this department? HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, ther e are 32. 1 - whatever that means. MR. C. BIRT: The Estim ates of last year and the actual expenditure for last year, there is some almost $80,000 difference - $849,000 to an actual expenditure of $765,000.00. Why was the large drop? I'm talking about last year's Estimates and last year's actual expenditures. HON. J.

STORIE: Last year's estima ted and last year's actual? MR. C. BIRT: Other Expenditu res. HON. J. STORIE: That's a very good question; we'r e glad you asked. Can we take that under advisement as staff don't have an answer readily at hand, but I'm sure there is a logical explanation? MR. C. BIRT: I'm sure ther e will be one found between now and then, even if there isn't one. HON. J. STORIE: lt will be yours in due course. MR. C. BIRT: There is a reduction of some 78,000 between the expenditure of last year of 765 going down to 687 this year. Why the reduction? HON. J.

STORIE: A combination of effects within the branch, a reduction in operating the day-to-day mileage and courier services, etc., as well as a dela y of bringing on stream some of the additional In formation Management Services to Student Aid Branch and relating to school bus reporting, and a delay in bringing the Bursary Assistance Program from the bureau onto the compu ter system. This is simply a slowdown of some of the activity in the branch. MR. C. BIRT: Is the slowdown just because of sort of admin istrative problems or has there been a delib erate hold put on this transfer of resp onsibility? HON. J.

STORIE: I think there's only one area where there was a problem. The rest of it was slowdown. MR. C. BIRT: There is a Recovery item of some $250,000 from Canada. What does tha t apply to? HON. J. STORIE: That's a Recovery from Canada, I guess thr ough Employment and Immi gration, for man power training services del ivered through the community college system, adminis trative costs tha t we recover. MR. C. BIRT: If I look at the - I'll have to call it the proposed schematic in this proposed annual report - there's no corres ponding computer services

section to this particular schematic and I'm just wondering why. HON. J. STORIE: You would find tha t under Mana gement In formation Services. MR. C. BIRT: Okay. Is there a close connection between the computer services

section and (

c) Research and Planning? Does one have a hardware base and the other the rese arch? Is tha t my underst anding? Okay, thank you. HON. J. STORIE: The answer was yes. MR. C. BIRT: He confirms yes. HON. J. STORIE: I nodded as loud as I could. MR. CHAIRMAN: I didn't hear a thing. The Member for Roblin-R ussel l. MR.l. DERKACH: In respect to the FRAME accou nting, school divisions submit their budgets and they are done in this computer services area. Does this area also give them their quarterly reports and tha t sort of thing? HON. J.

STORIE: Ye s, the Computer Services Branch provides the information to Finance Branch who deal with the school divisions, but essentially they crunch the numbers as it were. MR. L. DERKACH: Are school divisions assessed any kind of a fee for the services this department provides for them? HON. J. STORIE: Good idea, but they'r e not at this point. MR. L. DERKACH: Even if the school divisions are on the on-line, so to speak, service? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Cha irperson. MR. L. DERKACH: Thank you. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: I assume that when we're dealing with computers here, we'r e dealing with a large main frame comp uter. HON. J. STORIE: Ye s. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: In the fact that we have moved at least one staff person into Certification and Record s, is there an additional computer record keeping going on in the Department of Education? HON. J. STORIE: No. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: In terms of the record keeping with respect specifically to students, what kind of student record keeping is being kept at the present time? HON. J.

STORIE: The department has changed its policy - it's not a policy; it's a practice - over the last 2104

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 couple of years. Currently we keep, essential ly, backup reco rds. School di visions now ha ve the prime responsibility for keeping student records and the department maintains a backup to that system. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: So, for example, students of the future will not go to the Department of Education for transcripts. They will, in fact, go to their school division for a transcript. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chai rperson, yes, as a matter of course, yes, they would. MRS. S.

CARSTAIRS: Are students being provided with any copies of the records as they are being given to the Department of Education, which they used to be provided with, as I understand. HON. J. STORIE: The department does not provide that. That should be available, I presume, through the school division, the individu al schools. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: As I unde rstand what's happening now, the student in fact, certainly in Winnip eg school divisions, get their computer record from their own school.

Presumably , that is then fed into the main frame at the Department of Education and one has to just hope that's been fed in correctly, because the student gets no verification that the records that you have are identical to the ones that she or he got from the school. HON. J. STORIE: That's true. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Do the school di visions get such a record? HON. J. STORIE: The only other backup to that would be that the school and the school division have copies. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: So ther e is in fact no checking procedure to make sure that the marks recorded are an accurate reflection of the student's mark?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Min ister of Educa tion's nodding negatively. Is that a negative nod? HON. J. STORIE: We ll, Mr. Chairperson, no; the answer is no, checking as far as the department is concerned. - (Int erjec tion) - lt sounds like this . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: Just in case Hansard mis ses the response and it seems like there was no response . is not unusually surprisingly non-verbal. HON. J. STORIE: The school division has the prime responsibil ity. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: From what date have students now been told that they are to access their division or their school, rather than the Department of Education? HON. J.

STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson, this year school divisions were informed that our role would be as backup and that their respons ibilit y, that they would have prime responsibility for providing student records. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Has the student body been so informed? HON. J. STORIE: I'm info rmed that the previous Mi nis ter alerted school divisions tha t this policy would be coming into effe ct. I can't say that individual schools have relayed that information. I should ind icate that there has not been a large demand for student records from the department even over the last two years.

This is one of the reasons why the transfer occurr ed. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (f)(1) -p ass; 1. (f)(2)- pass; 1. (

g) Communications - the Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Could the Min ister give us a brief outline as to what the function of this department is? MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, H. Smith: The Minis ter of Education. HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, Mr. Cha ir pers on, the Communications Branch is inv olved in a number of di fferent activities within the department. They attempt to keep in touch with the public through a number of communications vehicles.

The department publish es Education Manitoba, which I'm sure the honourable member has seen, basically Education Manitoba - we consider it a professional journal - is published eight times a year.

The Communica tions Branch is also involved in preparing messages, etc., that the department circula tes amo ngst the organiza tions; corres ponding with organizations; responsible for resp onding to media requests for in forma tion, in formation about the department, its activities from the public as well as other duties as assigned; responsible for preparing press releases and so forth and getting them through Information Services. MR. C. BIRT: Is this the area tha t has the resp onsibility for the annual report publication? HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, Mr. Chairperson, they are responsible. MR. C.

BIRT: I notice that there is a $30,000 reduction in this year's estim ates over last year's expen ditu re. Is this the reason the report is so late in coming to us? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson, the reason is fewer words. - (Int erject ion) - Mr. Chairperson, the reduction is in the area of Salaries. lt relates to staffing adjustments. There was a transfer of one staff, a specialist into Manitoba Education TV. MR. C. BIRT: Is this educational TV part of this divis ion or is it found someplace else? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson, it's part of four - Correspondence, whi chever number tha t is. 2105

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 MR. C. BIRT: Would that be 4.(g)? HON. J. STORIE: Ye s. MR. C. BIRT: In relation to just costs, and I just want to get an approximation, it doesn't have to be specific, but on the budget of some 17 3,000-odd, what is the approximate cost of putting out the eight editions of Education Manitoba and also the cost of putting out the annual report? HON. J. STORIE: I'm informed that the production of Edu cation Manitoba costs approxi mately 50,000 and approxima tely $2,000 for the annual report. MR. C.

BIRT: These costs, are they strictly the printing and setup costs or do they inc lude staff writers, photographers, layouts, all of that or are they on permanent staff positions and it's not costed into the production costs? HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, Mr. Chai rperson, there is a full­ time editor of Education Manitoba who does the layout production, essentially a one-man sh ow. MR. C. BIRT: So I take it then, the costs of 50,000 and 2, 000 are really the creative costs , are the production, the material being produced and it's being sent out. lt's not a staffing cost included? HON. J. STORIE: Mr.

Chairperson, the 50,000 would include the one staff. MR. C. BIRT: Oh, it does, okay. If the expend itures . . . HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chai rperson, I stand corrected. I'm informed tha t the one staff is in addition to the 50,000. MR. C. BIRT: That makes better sense. To make sure that I understand it. lt says Other Expend itures some almost $80,000 of tha t 52,000 really go into these two types of publication. HON. J. STORIE: That's correct. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you.

Could the Minis ter advise how many staff positions there are in this department and are they all permanent Civil Service positions or staff years or any here on contract, term position? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, they are all Civil Service positions. There is one on term current ly, although antici pated to be a permanent position, although it hasn't been transferred to permanent. There is a dir ector of communications, a media specialist, and information writer - the editor of the magazine we just discussed, "Ed ucation Manitoba," and a secretary­ rec eptionist. MR. C.

BIRT: Could the Min ister give me the names of the individuals dealing with the term, the director - what is it - media specialist and then the editor? I take it there are just the four people then on staff? HON. J. STORIE: There are six, four profes sionals and two support staff. The director is Mr. David Church; the media specialist is John Shalagan; the information writer is Carla Mcleod; and the editor of "Edu cation Manitoba" is Lee Malcomson. MR. C. BIRT: Mr. Deputy Chairman, has the number of positions been constant, say, for the last two years?

Has there been an in crease or decrease in the number of positions in that department? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Deputy Cha irperson, there has been a reduction of one, as I ind icated earlier, and that reduction is a transfer of a media specialist to Manitoba Education TV. MR. C. BIRT: That represents the full $30,000, the reduction of the one person? HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. MR. L. DERKACH: Mr. Deputy Chairman, I guess it's my understanding that the annual report falls under this department. Is that correct? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. MR. L.

DERKACH: Can I ask the Minis ter whether or not, when we meet on the next day, we will have a proper annual report placed before us, rather than this mess of paper tha t we'r e trying to attempt to decipher as the proposed report? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Deputy Cha irperson, I do apologize for the fact that the department's annual report has not been prepared. lt was submitted some time ago to Queen 's Printer. Unfortuna tely, there is a backlog and I understand that, despite the fact tha t it is at the printer's, it will not be available for some time.

If the member wants some additional explanation, there has been a government-wide decision to move departmental annual reports to a fiscal year basis rather than - ther e was an amalgamation or a congl omeration of annual reports. Some were required to be tabled; some weren 't required to be tabled by legislation. So you had a staggering of tabling of annual reports throughout the legisla tive Session. Because of the requirement, there was a delay in beginning the work to prepare . the annual report by approximately three months. That also explains the additional delay.

I ha ve made draft copies of the ann ual report avai lable. Basically, that's the best I can do at this point. MR. L. DERKACH: I would hope that, in future years, this report would be available prior to the Estima tes debate, so tha t there could be some research work done on our behalf in terms of analyzing the an nual report before we come to Estimates. I don't bel ieve this is adequate, and I think that it has to be mentioned. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I appreciate the comments. I hope the member will appreciate that this 2106

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 is an unusual circumstance, including the sitting , the way it has come about . However, we will endeavour to make sure that annual reports are tabled in the appropriate time frame . MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: As I recall, "Education Manitoba," which is this journal, is a glossy magazine which has some 24 to 48 pages, depending on the edition. I'm amazed that it can be produced for $50,000 a year. Is it produced internally, even the production of it? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, I'm informed that essentially most of the work is done in-house.

The individual who is doing the editing has many other talents, which she puts to work in the production of "Education Manitoba." The only function that is outside the department is the printing. The typesetting and everything is done in-house . As well , the department sells advertising space to other government agencies on a cost-recovery basis. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: In terms of the advertising revenue, is there an offset here then, that your costs are 50,000 but in fact it may cost 100,000 to actually produce? HON. J.

STORIE: I'm informed that the recovery only amounts to about $8,000 a year, so it is done rather cheaply, I understand, at approximately 35 cents per copy. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Could I recommend that he not let this person's name loose, because "Maclean's ," "Time," and others would be very interested in getting a hold of same . HON. J. STORIE: I understand we have every reason to be grateful that she is employed in the Department of Education. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(g)(1)-pass. 1.(g)(2) - the Member for Fort Garry . MR. C.

BIRT: Just one question, it was indicated that there was a lot of in-house work done on these particular magazines, and typesetting was mentioned . Does the department then have its own printing presses, etc ., or is it just the mock-up that is done in the department and then it is farmed out? HON. J. STORIE: I understand that the process is that the information , the content is transmitted electronically to a typesetter. It comes back to the department, and the layout is done in the department. MR. C.

BIRT: Is it a private printing company or something that has the source, and then there's an electronic link between the department and the private printer? Okay, thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(g)(2)-pass . 1.(

h) Administrative Services - the Member for Fort Garry. Could you speak up a little bit, because it's difficult to hear with the fan? MR. C. BIRT: Can the Minister give a brief outline as to what the function of this department is and how many staff persons are involved? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, there are some 34.5 staff years in this branch, unchanged from 1985- 86. The primary funct ions of the branch are to provide leadership and coordination within the education system, as well as management direction and internal administrative services to the department.

As well , it supports functions within the department such as school building projects, administration, pupil transportation services, special school adm inistration , legislation and regulations administration, statutory boards and commissions, including the board of reference and the Manitoba Education Advisory Board, as well as maintaining and providing information on teacher qualifications and student academic records. MR. C.

BIRT: The Minister used a phrase, and I think this is what was said: "provides leadership and coordination for the educational system." Could the Minister elaborate on what that means or, if it wasn't the exact phrase, the phrase that he used? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, this particular branch provides leadership coordination - I guess leadership is not the correct word - coordination and support services to each of those various functions, you know , general administration of the department , pupil transportation , administrative support to statutory boards and commissions within the department .

As well , as the title implies , this branch maintains the teacher certification records , qualifications , etc ., information on teacher certificates throughout the province. MR. C. BIRT: The Estimates last year showed an approximate figure of, well it was $939,800.00 . If the actual expenditure was 1.1156 million, why the increase? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, again we're referring to information that comes from last year. It is not available . We'll get that information back to you tomorrow. MR. C. BIRT: I find it surprising that you can have a staff of 34 on a $1 million budget.

Is it primarily support staff? Is that the bulk of the 34, in other words, low­ paying, clerking-type jobs? HON. J. STORIE: Certainly, Mr. Chairperson, much of the responsibility in this branch relates to records keeping. MR. C. BIRT: One of the functions, I think he said, deals with legislation and regulations or something to that effect. Is this just in the sense of getting the bills printed and out, or is it the creation of a piec e of legislation, for example, the one that's coming before us shortly , The Teachers ' Pension Act?

Is this where it flows from, or is it just an administrative function as it relates to legislation? 2107 HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson. Essentially the initial drafting , the drafting of the principles , would be

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 done in this department through this department, the support services provided and then, in conjunction with the A-G's Department, transla ted I guess into legalese, back to the department for review and to make sure that it keeps with the intent. MA. C. BIAT: So if a particular piece of legislation, say it was developed under Program Development for a particular area, it would be given to this particular sub-section or to Admin istrative Services who would put it into some form of legisla tive format so it would then go into the system. Is that correct? HON. J. STOAIE: That's correct, Mr.

Chairperson. MR. C. BIAT: Perhaps while your staff is checking, they can also find out - there was an est imate of 230,900 for Other Expenditu res for last year, but you spent 273,600.00. Again, I would like to know why the increase was higher than the estimated amounts. If you take that as notice and come back on Thursd ay, that's fine. There was Recoverable from Canada of 76,000 in last year's Estima tes, but only 18 ,000 for this year. What is this for, and why is there a reduction in the Recove rable? HON. J.

STOAIE: Again it's the recovery of adminis trative costs for the provision of adminis trative services such as pupil transportation, I underst and, in remote areas in particular where the prime resp onsibility would be Canada's. As an example, I'm told the airport in Clearwater where there is some transportation involved, and the recovery would come through this department. MR. C. BIAT: If the Minis ter can't answer now, I can appreciate maybe the next time we meet.

If these costs are ongoing - and they use the example of the airport transportation - why would they have been so high like for last year and so small this year? I mean, what has caused the di fference? HON. J. STOAIE: We ll, I would be only speculating at this point, but I remind you that the transportation of one, two or three students in an area who no longer require transportation for whatever reason would make that di fference fairly quick ly. MR. C. BIAT: These recov erable expenditu res then are primarily for the transportation of students? Is that what it's for? HON. J.

STOAIE: lt also would be recove ries for admin istration of tuitions tha t should be coming from Canada to the province in some way, tuitions that they should be paying, in other words. lt would be non­ resident student fees, that kind of thing. MR. C. BIAT: Then is it fair to say tha t this particular item fluctuates each year, depending on the number of students who may be in a particular location or taking a particular course or being transf erred from one area to another? Is that what it really is all about? HON. J. STOAIE: That's correct. MR. C. BIRT: Okay, thank you. MA. L.

DERKACH: My question is with regard to the pupil transportation or the transportation system. How many school divisions in the province at the present time use the provincial bus transporta tion, as opposed to the independent contract type of transporta tion? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chair person, there are very few that don't have their own. However , some do have a combina tion such as Winnip eg 1, which uses some of its own and some contract. There are a few situations where it is cont ract only. I can think of one, and that would be Flin Flon. MR. L.

DERKACH: Can you be more specific in terms of the number of divisions that have contract school buses? HON. J. STORIE: I will have the information for the member tomorrow. MR. L. DEAKACH: Mr. Chairman, with respect to per pupil cost, at the present time, what is the present per pupil grant for transporta tion? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the per pupil grant is $410.00. MA. L. DEA KACH: For tho se students who are transported by contract buses, is that the same? HON. J. STORIE: Yes, Mr. Chairperson. MR. L.

DERKA CH: Has there been a cost study done in terms of whether division -owned buses as opposed to contract buses are more expensive or cheaper? HON. J. STORIE: No, Mr. Chairperson. MA. L. DERKACH: Has there been by the department a directive to its employees to try and convince school divisions to go on a division -owned bus transportation system? HON. J. STORIE: No t to my knowledge, Mr. Cha irperson. That decision is within the responsibility of the school division. MA. L.

DEAKACH: If that is the respon sibility of the school per se, I have information which ind icates there has been a hard sell to get school divisions to go from contract bus to school divisi on-owned buses, ind icating tha t it is cheaper to transport students by div isiona l buses than it is by contract buses. HON. J. STOAIE: Mr. Chairperson, if that is occurring, it is occurring without the knowledge or di rections of anyone within this branch or within gov ernment. I am not aware of any information which would corrobor ate that kind of suggestion. 1t may be a personal opinion.

But if that is occurring, I would certainly be more than happy to look into it, because I do not think it's appropriate. 2108

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 MR. L. DERKACH: The school divisions that have contr act bus service, can a school division apply for a stand-by bus from the department for that school division? HON. J. STORIE: Ye s. MR. L. DERKACH: Will that school division be allo wed a stand-by bus? HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, if they're avai lable. MR. L. DERKACH: What does that mean, if they're available? I mean they build school buses all the time. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the school divisions order buses through the Department of Education, so obvi ously , if it's a contract, they would not be using that bus. MR. L.

DERKACH: Okay, I'd like to get it a little more specific than that. A school division has its entire transportation needs contracted out, but there are ins tances where a school division may wish to have a stand-by bus in cases of an emergen cy, especially during the winter months, where a contract bus may break down somewhere in the middle of nowhere; and also for the transportation of students for extra­ curricular activities which is part of the school program. Now, if the school division applies for a stand-by bus for that particular use, would they be considered, if buses are, as you say, avai lable? HON. J.

STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, my understan ding is - and it would seem to me to be good practice - for the school division who is using contract buses, to ensure that part of the contract they had with the bus cont ractor, to ensure that he had stand-by equipment. I assume that is part of many of the contracts the school divisions have with bus lines or ind ividual owner­ operators.

I'm not sure whether the member is suggest ing, as a matter of course, that the public, the Department of Education, the Public Schools Finance Board should be financing stand-by buses across the province; it does not sound to me to be a rea sonable sugges tion. MR. L. DERKACH: But, in fact that is the case for divisions who have division- owned buses. They do have, as a matter of fact, stand-by buses and buses that they use for extra-curricular activity. That is a cost to the public as well. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chai rperson, I agree.

In this case the school division is providing the service and I would expect the school division to have a stand-by bus, as I would expect a private contractor arranging with the school division who is purchasing service, the contractor should be able to provide the service. If his equipment breaks down, then he provides the back-up. MR. L. DERKACH: But the school division does not contract out the extra-curri cular trips, the field day trips, all the extra-curricular trips tha t a school takes

part in in the division. Those are not cont racted out. Will that division be allo wed a bus for that purpose if they request it from the department? HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the department policy does not allow school divisions who have their own bus service - does not allow them stand-by buses for extra -curricular activity . Some may in fact use stand­ by buses for that purpose, but that was not the intention nor is it the policy to fund that kind of activity . MR. L. DERKACH: But I am suggesting, Mr.

Mini ster , that there is discrimi nation in this area, because it is a known fact tha t school divisions who have division­ owned buses do use their stand-by buses for extra­ curricular functions. For a school division that has contracted out its daily operations - (I nterjec tion) - That's not hard - daily operations does not have that lux ury. Wha t I am asking is, why are they being discrimi nated against in terms of being able to apply for a bus for those purposes and for a stand-by bus? HON. J. STO RIE: Mr.

Chairperson, there is no discrimination because no one is allowed to apply under tho se ci rcumstances for a bus, so there is no discrimination. I point out tha t - I was going to draw an analogy with another service, but I won't. Suffice it to say, that if you or I were contracting for a service or someone to provide us a hauling service, and they cou ldn't perform because of fail ure of equipment, I don't think it would be left to our responsibility to find substitu te equipment. lt would be the contr actor and I think that's a pretty reasonable policy to follow.

School divisions certai nly are free to contr act transportation services and some do so. I think it behooves them to ensure that whomever they're making arrangements with has the necessary equipment to provide the service, and service in the event of an emergency. MR. L. DERKACH: Does the school division have to contract out its entire - or the school division wishes to go on divisional buses for part of its route? Can it do that or does it have to go in total. HON. J. STORIE: lt can have a mix, Mr. Chairperson. MR. L.

DE RKACH: Seeing tha t there is no capital inv estment on the part of the province when a school division contracts out its buses; there is no capital inv estment for the province on buses, garages and that sort of thing, then should there not be some consider ation giv en to those school divisions that cont ract out buses and don't demand the capital services from the province to at least have one bus that they can utiliz e for their extra-curricular and out­ of-school or after-school functions? HON. J. STORIE: lt hasn't been a matter of policy to consider those kinds of alternatives.

You know, I think a case can be made, I suppose, for either argument. lt seems to me that the services tha t the di vision requires, if they are contracting out transportation of students, whether it be for classroom, extra-curricular activity for stand by, could be subject to negotiations 2109

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 with a contractor and perhaps should be if there is a concern or an ind ication that that kind of service is needed in the division. MR. L. DERKACH: Would the Mini ster also undertake to have his department be more open-minded in terms of allowing those school divisions to perhaps contract their needs, allow those school divisions to apply to the Department of Education for buses for the types of needs that I have suggested?

I know tha t the policy at the present time does not allow for that, but would the Min ister look at changing that policy because ther e is no demand from these school divisions on the province for capital for supplying buses for that particular division. Therefore, that is an actual cost-saving and there is no demand on having garages within that division. In most divisions, it's more than one garage tha t would be required. HON. J. STORIE: We ll, Mr.

Chair person, as I have ind icated, this is another in a long list, I suppose, of requests and concerns that are going to be expressed by individual members and have been addressed to me through letter and meeting about the need for additional funding, the desire for additional funding for capital equipment, buildings, services.

I guess while I can certainly take as notice the member's concern and the issue he raises, I would like to point out that extension of services, tha t change in policy will cost the province in one area, and that will have to be any change and cost there too would have to be weighed against the other priorities within the educational system. MR. CHAIRMAN: I'l l just point out to the members that the time is 10 o'clock, I assume we wish to continue to finish this tonight. The Memb er for Roblin- Russ ell. MR. L. DERKACH: Well, Mr.

Min ister, it's not going to be an additional cost because if that division is forced into going the route of having divisional buses, then there is an additional cost because not only will the province have to supply the buses, they will also have to supply capital for the building of garages to service those buses. That's got to come out of somewhere. That's either an additional cost to the province or on special levies, so ther efore it's a cost to the people of Manitoba. That is a big cost as compared to supplying one or two buses to those divisions who will have contra cted out their services.

I know, from sitting on a school board, that there was a definite push by the department to have divisions go - provincial ly-owned buses as opposed to contract buses - because of the fact that they ind icated tha t it would be che aper, but the things that they didn't take into consider ation were the cost of buses; the cost of garages. When they were confronted with these two things, their response was well that's supplied by the province anyway. That's still a cost to the taxpayers. HON. J. STORIE: Wel l, I appreciate the point the member is making.

I would ind icate only one additional fact and that is that the province does not provide garages. The Public Schools Finance Board provides the buses. MR. L. DERKACH: We ll, the garages don't just get there; the taxpayers still have to support the building of these structures to service the buses. In addition, they have to have compounds to store those buses in. That still comes out of the taxpayers' pockets. At present, for those divisions that have contracted buses, the only thing that the province is responsible for is the per pupil grants.

Now, if you compare that to a similar di vision that has divisional buses, the costs are considerably different. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the member raises a valid concern. As a result of his queries, I will be asking some questions and have staff do an analysis of the relative costs if we can find some comparable di visions with comparable mile age and comparable student populations, etc., where we can draw some legiti mate comparisons about the relative costs of each system. I would indic ate that there is a policy in place. There is no discrimination.

We do not provide standby buses for extra-curr icular activities. We provide stand by buses for emergency purposes. MR. L. DERKACH: How many buses is a division all owed as stand by buses? Is there any specific number or does it go in accordance with the number of buses that a division has within its . . . HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, it's related , obvi ously, to the number of buses that the division has. I don't have the ratio but it can be made available. MR. L. DERKACH: We ll, if that information is going to be made available, I'll wait until that information is brought forth.

Maybe at that time he can also bring forth the - because those costs are avaiable or there's been a study done on per pupil costs in either division­ owned or contract. HON. J. STORIE: Mr. Chairperson, the transportation issue would probably be better di scussed under 3.(a), as well, so we will have that information for you at that time. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I was just inter ested in the transportation issue but more of a phi losophical transportation issue than an actual dollar-and-c ents transportation issue.

The problem with young childr en today is tha t their home residence is often not the place they are early in the morning, and frequently, that is not where they are returned to later at night. There seems to be a great deal cif di ffic ulty, particular ly, I will admit, within the urban divisions within the City of Winnipeg, who very clearly say the child lives at such-and-such an address, and at that add ress that child is not entitled to bus service. However, the child is at a day care centre at eight o'clock in the morning, from where he or she gets picked up from school and where he or she is to be let off.

Is the Min ister looking at trying to work with the divisions and to try and give a different definition to residence than has been given in the past. HON. J. STORIE: There have been a significant number of requests to the department to look at tha t issue 21 10

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 essentially over the last year. For some reason, it has become more of an issue in the recent past. lt is one of a number of transportation issues that we are going to have to address, I believe, in the near future. I appreciate the problem that school di visions have with, I guess, opening that Pandora's box because it could lead to considerable confusion, additiona l adminis trative costs, as you track people and childr en from service to service. So it's a di fficult issue.

However , I certainly appreciate the concern expressed by parents who, from their perspective, say this is no additiona l cost. it's not a qu estion of mo re transportation or less transportation per se; it's a question of an addr ess and convenience for parents. My staff point out that it's a more acute problem for those with students in kin dergarten who only attend half days, and that's certainly true. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: When the Mini ster gave his introdu ctory remarks to this particular section, he talked about teacher qualifications.

Would he rather deal with that, however , under the whole certification issue? HON. J. STORIE: Ye s, this would be appropriate. Te acher certification records and teacher qualifications are under this division. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: In the di scussions that I have had with the Faculty of Education, there seems to be a gr ave concern as to whether we are presently educating our teachers in the most appropriate manne r.

There also is grave concern, certainly at the University of Manitoba, that many who enter education straight from high school graduation have, in fact, a far higher failure rate in the 15 to 20 percent range in Ye ar One and Ye ar Two as opposed to those who enter after post degree, after a B.A. or a B.Sc. Is the department, in fact, looking at the whole area of teacher qualifications, and are we examining the question of whether teachers should have a two-year general B.A. , B.Sc. training similar to that afforded to the medical school student, the law student, the dental student? HON. J.

STORIE: I was trying to just think through some of the statistics and the issue that the member raised about the success of grad uates moving into the facul ty. As a matter of principle, I think that a post-certificate degree, or pre-certifica te degree, I should say, is an excellent idea. I think, as a matter of course, it allows for a much broader perspective, and I think it makes sense in terms of the ed ucation system and the education that's transmitted to our childr en in the long run.

However, I guess this debate has gone on across many jurisd ictions for some time about the most appropriate level, degree and range of qualifications. I don't know that I can say much more other than it is a concern. Our teachers generally are impr oving their qual ifications year by year. I belie ve some 80-plus percent now have at least one degree. So we are se eing an in creasingly well-educated teaching force and I think that in itself bodes well for the future. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: I think that there is certai nly no question that our teachers are better educated than they have ever been in the past.

Statistics bear that out. But I think that there is an increasing concern among those who are now getting undergrad uate degrees that, despite relatively high grade-point averages, they can't get into certification programs, either one-year or two­ year certification programs, because there are very limited spaces at the University of Manitoba for such programs. Yet you can enter into a four-year B.Ed. program with a 67 percent average in your top three- 300 courses, but you are having difficulty getting into a certificate program or a post B.Ed. program with a grade point average of three.

Have any di scussions been held with the university as to creating greater access ibili ty for teachers who are going in post degree? HON. J. STORIE: I can't say tha t there has been any discussion at this point. I have not specifically met with the Deans of Education. I have talked informally with the Dean of Education from the University of Man itoba. However, these specific issues were not raised. We are in the process - in fact, we 'l l be making an annou ncement shortly - about the post-graduate certificate course that will be coming up.

However, the point you raise is an interesting one in terms of admittance to the four-year Bachelor of Education Program. lt's quite true, although I think I'm safe in saying that the qualifications and the marks that are required to get into the four-year program have stiffened considerably over the past few years as has the grade-point requirement for entrance into the two-year certification program. Again there are a lot of reasons, I suppose, for the difficulty of those with degrees getting into the two­ year certificate program. Part of that, of course, has been the tremendous incr ease in applicants.

Te aching is one of the areas where there are still relatively good emplo yment prospects seen as a relatively stable profes siona l opportun it y. So there ha s been considerable competition for the space which has obviously made it more difficult for those with albeit acceptable grade points to get in. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: The stats that I have ind icate that 325 students will be accepted into the four-year program and only 110 will be accepted into the post­ degree program.

I think that there is no question that the individuals who have degrees have a maturity and certainly an academic excellence proven tha t is not ind icative of those entering right in off high school. I would hope tha t the Min ister would under take discussions with the universities about broaden ing this particular program and making it more acces sible. HON. J. STORIE: I can only say I think the member raises a good point, and it is something that I will be raising. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(h)(1)-pa ss; 1.(h)(2)- pass. That would be a sufficien cy. Commit tee rise. 2111

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 SUPPLY - HEALTH MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Commit tee, please come to order. We have been considering the Estimates of the Department of Health. We are now on Item No. 2.(p), Manitoba Health Research Council - the Memb er for River East. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, did the Mi nister of Health have any response to the comments that were made this afternoon? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: For the sake of brevity, I wasn 't, because my honourable friend repeated and repeated himself, with his eye on the clock, with the intention - 1 spotted what he was doing - to try to keep the thing going until four-thi rty. I'll just answer this. My honourable friend suggested that the money coming from the Lotteries, it's clear tha t he do esn 't und ers tand or di d not want to understand the Lotteries and I was going to invite him - 1 intend to be present when they have the Estima tes of the Lotteries - and we can de bate the Lotteries.

He wanted to know, first of all, approxima tely what they would make. We didn't like the idea of giving that but we finally got that because they insisted. We got some information, a kind of a rough guess because you never know, especially in the first year of the Lotte ries, and it was less than that. My honourable friend wanted to know how we can reconcile that when there was more money than anticipa ted in the Lotteries. He forgot that when they're saying tha t there's more money in the lotteries, in general, when we talk about Lotteries, that's casinos, that's lotteries, that's bingos, that's every ting.

The way it is set up that the research gets the revenue of a particular game, the break-open tickets sold in hotels, that's what they're getting and they had some problems at the start. They made a little less money than antici pated but they still received $787,000.00. They are going to receive that, and received that last year, and also approximately 800 from the reve nues, and actually you can say that the money that went for research is another 800,000, because that was for capital.

I explained that earli er, so I think we've pretty well exhausted this but, if my honourable friend is not satisfied, we sure can di scuss tha t under Lotteries. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minis ter could explain to me whether there's any money for cancer resea rch under this line or does it come somewhere else, provincial funding or provincial grants for cancer researc h. HON. L. DESJARDINS: That's really the intent of forming and bringing that, crea ting the Manitoba Health Research Council. lt is not predetermined so much money for cardiac research or cancer.

The demand, the application has to be well-prepared, and to quali fy, of course, they are checking to see tha t there's no duplication. The council decides where the money will go, so there could well be for cancer. This is the money that comes from Manitoba only; the rest, the grants that come from Ottawa, that's decided in Ottawa.

I'm sure that there must be in there, with this amount of money, money for cancer resea rch, but I guess the final report - they have a report periodically , of course, - and they have to give the information, it is public, and they talk about the council now and they would ind icate where the money went. I'm sure that there's money for cancer researc h. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Can the Mi nis ter to ind icate to me then - this is for the upcoming Estimates - in the last year if any of this money from the Manitoba Health Rese arch Council did go to cancer researc h? HON. L.

DE SJARDINS: No, as I say, they're inde pendent from government. I must have the annual report somewhere, so if my honourable friend can't obtain the annual report from the Research Foundation, I'l l see that she gets it. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Mr. Chairman, as ind icated earlier by the Mem ber for Pem bina, the Federal Government does contribu te a fair amount to cancer research in the province -I believe it's about $1. 4 million - and it seems to be a practice of many of the other provinces to contri bute equal amounts to match the Federal Government as far as grants to cancer researc h.

Can the Min ister inform me whether this government has the same policy? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I tried to explain. I believe my honourable friend wasn't here before the dinner hour or didn't get the explanation. We don't do that at all; we don't pick and choose. Any money that we feel should go in research and, as I say, five years ago, the total was $200,000 from the province, and now there's this amount. So I'm saying that money goes to the Research Council and they decide, they make the decision. The only place where we earmark funds is because there is a different act, and at first we felt that should be done.

We still feel that it should come from there because we wanted to designa te that because it was

an act that is through the Mental Health Researc h. There's $40,000 to $50,000, which is an increase from the 15 . All others are just strictly to the council. We do not dic tate where the money will go. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Can I ask the Minis ter, then: Who is re sponsible for the Manitoba Health Research Council? lt comes under your department. Are you not ultima tely responsible for the council? HO N. L. DESJARDINS: I'll try again. I am responsible to provide the funds and that council was set up so any money, it could be done in either of two ways.

We can decide that we would put a certain amount of money for research and the Department of Health and government, the Min ister of Health, through Order-in­ Council, would say $10 0, 000 to cancer researc h, $10 0,000 to cardiac, any way at all. We chose, at the request of the Medical Socie ty, and the experts and that the researchers themselves, they felt, and we agr �ed - we wanted to set this thing up - that we were not qualified to do that. That would be hit and miss and would lend itself to partisan politics, if you may. 2112

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 So we said, all right, whatever money we can scrounge and get together and so on, we'll say here, we'll giv e it to this board and that's it and we don't inter fere with them and make sure that the money is spent, that people are not going on holidays, of course, and so on. They have to account for it, but we have nothing to do or we don't try to influence them or anything when it comes to that. So we see that the money is spent; we see that they account for it. They have to give us an annual report. They give that to the public; it's public, and that's it.

We don't int erfere with them at all. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Mr. Chairman, might I ask the Min ister then if I could obtain a breakdown of where the money does go? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I've got to talk louder. I said that you can and, if you can't get it, I'll get it for you. See how friendly I am? MRS. B. MITCHELSON: So cooperative. Okay, under this line, it says that it provides for health research grants, personal support awards and admini strative costs of the council. Can you tell me what portion of that $787,000 are adminis trativ e costs? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Wait till you get the report MRS. B.

MITCHELSON: Pardon? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Wait till you get the report. It'll be in there. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: lt will all be in the report? Okay, I guess we can pass that one. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(

p) Manitoba Health Research Council- pass. Item No. 2.( q)

(1) Northern Health: Salaries, 2.(q)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for River East. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Ye s, Mr. Chairman, seeing there are no Salaries under this line, can the Min ister tell us what the Other Expenditur es are, the $48,500.00? HON. L. DESJARDINS: There is a staff that comes under the ADM, Dr. MacDonald. That's where it paid. That money is to help in some of the expense supplies in the Northern Station, the health sta tion.

Also, it's for expanded deliv ery in primary care and preventative health service in the Northern area and difficult of access places in the North and, as I said, for some of the equipment or whatever is needed in those stations, and also for staff training and development of personnel in that area, local people. MRS. B. MITCHELSON: Can the Min ister indic ate what areas in the North are included in this line? HON. L. DESJARDINS: The Norman region, Grand Rapids, Moose Lake, Eastervi lle, Cormorant, the Thom pson re gion, Wabowden, Thicket Portage, Pikwitonei, llford, that was for primary care.

Preventative health, the Norman region, Grand Rapids, same places, and Thompson region, the same places, that's for preventative health and primar y care. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the services that are provided under (q) (2), when the Minis ter is mentioning some of the Metis communities, are those services primarily to Metis Manitobans? HON. L. DESJARDINS: I beg your pardon? MR. D. ORCHARD: Are those services primarily to Metis Mani tobans? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Ye s, it is. Most of these Northern areas are mostly Metis. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Are you ready to pass this item? 2.(q) ( 1) Northern Health: Salaries-pass; 2. (q)

(2) Other Expenditur es - the Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Before we pass the res olution, Mr. Chairman, this afternoon, I had an opportunity to go over it over the supper hour. The Min ister presented some travel expenses for the ADM, Dr. MacDonald. Now I note, from the Order-in-Council appointment, that the appointment to ADM was made I belie ve effective on November 9, 1985. Mr. Chairman, the first sheet of expenditures indi cates a trip to Ottawa representing the Provincial Advis ory Committee on Community Health. 1t was ind icated in this that it was taken in September, 1985.

That would seem to indic ate that trip was taken when the incumbent was the Chief Medical Officer of Health. Were the expenses totalled in the September, 1985 trip accounted for in the position as Chief Medical Officer of Health, as well as in the ADM line? HON. L. DESJARDINS: lt was paid from the same budget, but it was done by the office that Dr. MacDonald held at the time. MR. D. ORCHARD: So it was paid from the budget as Chief Medical of Health is what the Minis ter is saying. Was it also claimed as ADM? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Claimed twice, you mean? MR. D. ORCHARD: Ye s. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Not that I know of.

When Dr. MacDonald had that trip to Ottawa, she submitted the total bill to Ottawa. Ottawa paid only part of it. She then subm itted the bill to Manitoba. There was an error subm itted twice, and that was repaid by Dr. MacDonald. MR. D. ORCHARD: Would the Min ister care to provide a little more clarification on how the double billing occurred? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Dr. MacDonald at first was submitting her own bill. 1t was submitted, that portion, just the hotel bill. Then her secretary included it in the total for the money. When it was discovered, it was 2113

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 brought to the attention of the ADM and Dr. MacDonald was notified and repaid the amount, the secon d. lt was an error done in submitting the bills between Dr. MacDonald and her secretary. MR. D. ORCHARD: When was it repaid, Mr. Chairman? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Recently. I don't know exactly when. lt was brought to her attention just recently and paid recently. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, let me understand what the Mi nister is telling me. The Min ister is ind icating to me, and I presume we're talking on the September 1985 trip to Ottawa when an expense account was subm itted by Dr.

MacDonald herself, as well as by her secreta ry. They were one and the same expense accounts, both paid and reimbursed, and presumably the reimbu rsement was made in each case to Dr. MacDonal d, and that just recently the error was discussed when this happened for a trip out of province, September 1985, that just recently the error was di scovered and reimbursed? I'd be in terested in knowing how recently. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Roughly around the time that there were changes in the department. There was a trip; part of it was paid by the Federal Government. Dr. MacDonald subm itted all the bills, the hotels.

The amount that my honourable friend is talking about is $16 4.20. lt's not that large an amount. Dr. MacDonald then was in formed by the Federal Government that they didn't pay the hotel. She subm itted that bill directly, just that bill alone. Later on, at the end of the month, I guess, or no, the final bill was submit ted in 1986, and in that the secretary included everyt hing, including this amount. So there was payment twice. This was brought to her attention by Mr. Maynard , and Dr. MacDonald was made aware of that and she repaid the amount in total. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, I'm not particularly in terested in the number of dollars that are involved. Is the Min ister saying that in September 19 85 the Federal Government was billed for the $16 4.20? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Ye s. MR. D. ORCHARD: They only reimbur sed the air fare out of that total expense package that was submitted. As a result of that, Dr.

MacDonald then turned in an expense account, as she was entitled to do, for $16 4.20 that was not reimbur sed by the Federal Government because it wasn't part of what they were going to reimburse; received payment for that from the Provincial Government, as she was entitled to do; and then the Min ister is indicating that at a later date her secretary then turned in an expense account, rei ncluding the $16 4.20, which was done, presumabl y, the Min ister says in 1986. Does that mean when in 1986? Janu ary of 1986? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Right. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Then in Janu ary of 1986 the $16 4.20 was again reimbur sed to Dr. MacDonald with the balance of whatever expenses were included in that expense account; and then, just recen tly - and we don't know how recently - the Mini ster should be able to find that out because a cheque should have been issued for the repayment and, indeed, a receipt issued for same by the department - that that error was discovered just recently and reimbursed. Now, Mr. Chairman, presumably , Dr.

MacDonald cashed the original cheque for $16 4.20 back in September or October of 1985; presumably cashed the same cheque from the Government of Manitoba for the expenses reimbursed on an account submit ted by her secretary. Mr. Chairman, I don't know how many people, in terms of their expense accounts, don't find out exactly whether they'v e been reimb ursed completely and checked through. Mr.

Chairman, I'm wondering if this reimbu rsement and the discovery of this error and the reimb ursement to the department has any coincidence with my posing the questions on the expense account during the course of the se Estim ates , because the Min ister hasn't ind icated to us when this reimbur sement took place, when it was discussed, when the error was di scovered, or when the double billing was dis covered. That hasn't been ind icated. All we have is sort of a loose framework of time that it was di scovered by Mr. Maynard and, su bsequent ly, Dr.

Ma cDonald was notified and, subsequently , she repaid the overbilled amount which, if it was done this month, that means some five months ago the second cheque was cashed inc lusiv e of the double-billed expense account. Mr. Chairman, that brings into question a number of things, and the Mini ster should tell us tonight, if he has the information, as to when the reimb ursement was made. Was it made today? Was it made yesterday? When was the reimbu rsement made? HON. L. DESJARDINS: The information that my hon ourable friend received was prepared by Mr. Maynard's office, that is when it was di scover ed, but Dr.

Ma cDonald was informed by the Deputy Min ister, who had been informed by the admini stration, and paid immedia tely. I wonder if my honourable friend is implying motives because this could be very serious. I think if I take the amount and all that, that it was a mistake, it was wrong, I certainly don't think that we should imply motives. We have no proof of that at all. I don't think that people in that position of Dr. MacDonald, especially for $16 4, would stoop to that. I think it's very serious to imply motives. Mi stakes have been made in the past and I'm satisfied that it has been an honest mistake. Dr.

MacDonald, no doubt, will be very careful in submitting the bills. lt was at a time when there was a lot of commotion in the department also, and she wasn't used to that. She subm itted her bill. She didn't know the part that Ottawa was playing in there. The secretary then resubmitted the bill, not that amount, and that wasn't dis covered until this information was prepared. MR. D. ORCHARD: We ll, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate what the Mi nis ter is saying, but we have a cir cumstance here that does beg questions. For instance, on whose 2114

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 advice did the secretary prepare Dr. MacDonald's January expense account? How did the secretary in clude in that an item which had already been reimbursed? Did she just pull it out of the air? Because Dr. MacDonald, as you ind icated earlier, had already been reimb ursed for that by separate billing to the Province of Manitoba after that expense account was turned down by the Federal Government. Now presumab ly, the secretary did not simply pull a bunch of figures out of the air to create the expense account that was turned into Januar y. They had to come from somewhere.

I've been a Min ister and I'v e had secretaries prepare expense accounts for me on the information I' ve given them. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Let's understand each other . At no time am I saying that Dr. Ma cDonald is not accepting the resp onsibili ty. lt was prepared by the secretary who got the information together , but it was signed. As my honou rable friend knows, when he was the Min ister and the same with my expense, it is prepared by the secretary but signed by the person involved. Dr. MacDonald signed that and accepts the resp onsibili ty, and assures me and the Deputy that it was done in error.

I'm not going to imply motive. I'm ready to accept that. I think probably everybody learned their lesson. I don't know how it took so long to dis cover it. We had to look and compile all that. That's unfortunate, but I' m not ready to imply motives at this time. I was informed of that the day we prepared that. MR. D. ORCHARD: So then in fact the reimbur sement has occurred either today or yesterday on the basis of this information being compiled. - (Int erjecti on) - So, Mr.

Chairman, the Mini ster doesn't want to imply any motives or anything like that, but I simply point out to the Minis ter that this is a senior officer within his department responsible for major resp onsibilities in the department. As I mentioned to the Mi nis ter when we started this area of Estimates, you have a morale problem over in this whole division. You've got people who are upset, disturb ed with the way certain things have happened in the department; the movement of people and the bringing in of new staff.

I have to tell you in all candour and in all honesty that your new ADM is often referred to as part of the problem. This instance of a miscalcula ted expense account and double billing, which hasn't been di scovered until I raised the question and until the expense accounts are prepared yesterday and a cheque is cut to reimbur se the double billing or the double expense reimbur sement until yesterday or today, Mr. Chairman, I think the Minis ter has to ask himself whether the morale problems are inde ed attributable to his new ADM and the lack of leadership that's there.

This certain ly, as coincidental and as mistaken as the Min ister is making this in cident, it hardly brings the staff to a level of confidence in the new ADM, given the problems that have been created since he's been put in there. So, Mr. Cha irman, the Min is ter , I think, has to under stand tha t his department must function with a full understanding and a full belief that his personnel are operating in the best int erests of the department at all times. Anything that doesn't indic ate that is causing and will continue to cause a lack of morale in the staff.

When you don't have staff who are motivated and who are ready to accept the leadership of the ADM and others in the department, then you have staff who are not delivering properly. When they're not deliv ering properly, that costs all Manitobans not only tax dolla rs but costs the people to whom the programs are being delivered. Mr. Chairman, if the Minis ter doesn't now have flag for some issues that he should take hold of and get control of within this part of his department, then I don't know what other kind of warnings he needs. HON. L. DESJARDINS: This is incredible, Mr.

Chairman, to go after people in that meth od. I' ve never seen this in this House before. If there is a problem with morale in my department, it's certainly not helped by the actions of my honourable friend today. lt hasn't helped at all. That is not a way that you deal with morale. Dr. MacDonald has the full confidence of the Minis ter, I can tell you that. There has been the best morale in the department. There's a lot of dead wood in the department, people who have been there a long time, an old boys' club who have been protecting each other and who do not like any changes at all. Dr.

Ma cDonald came in and did some of the work that is needed to get an efficient department, and that is not easy. She stepped on toes. If anybody has any problems, should they go to somebody else or go to the Min ister responsible? How do I guess those things if they come and tell you and you bring it here? I'm ready to lis ten to anybody any time, and I have. lt's obvious in a large department like that, some people at times are not satisfied. There are some political friends of different parties in there, and there is more heat in that department than anywhere else. That is not loyalt y.

If those are the kind of people you trust, if you ever get in government, you'll see what happens. That is not the way to try to change it. How can I guess what's going on if I'm not told by these people? All they have to do is they can go to the Deputy Minis ter, to other people. There has been some resentment of some of the changes that are going on, rightly or wrongly.

I'm not saying that these people are all wrong, but how can you rectify things when you don't know, when nobody is bringing this to your attention, all down the line, through the ADM's and the di rectors and so on, and when you have to learn it from somebody else who is in Opposition. Those are not things that are obvious. That is information that doesn't belong to anybody else but the department. I've never said anyth ing. I'm ready to keep it as open as possible. But tonight, I think you've gone a little too far. You've implied motive to a profess ional for that kind of mone y. Fine, it's a mistake.

She accepts respo nsibil ity. I, in turn, as the Minis ter have to accept responsibil ity. How do you think I could find out about this? Do you think I check every single expense account of everybody in the department, of all the staff who we have and so on? This was brought to our attention. Sure, you knew someth ing. Why wasn't that information given to me? Why are those people not sayi ng, hey, Mr. Min ister, there's some thing wrong in the department and we 2115

Tuesday, 22 July, 1986 have a protest, whatever they have? That would be investigated. I can't inv estigate the things I don't know. I think it is unfortunate. I'm glad that came to the sur face. I don't like the way it was done. I don't think that it was fair, somebody who can't defend themself at all. lt seems to me that could have been brought, even by the member of the Opposition, if they want to just try to make points. I can't see where that's going to give you brownie points. That is not my resp onsibility to check every thing at all. We could have looked at it. We could have brought in Dr.

MacDonald, and at least let Dr. MacDonald defend himself. I think that to publicly make a statement like that for that kind of money, I don't think it's fair. I think it's wrong. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, if this Minis ter was truly in terested in providing the information to the House, why did he table this document this afternoon, knowing that the ADM had double-billed an expense account and had a cut a cheque to pay for the extra billing? Why wasn't that part of this full information that the Minis ter gave me this afternoon? He says, oh, come on.

He's now saying that I'm not supposed to bring up anything that's drawn to my attention in the depart ment, because he should know about it from the departmental s