May 4, 1995 Alberta Hansard 1547 Legislative Assembly of Alberta Title: Thursday, May 4, 1995 1:30 p.m. Date: 95/05/04 [The Speaker in the Chair] head: Prayers THE SPEAKER: Let us pray. Our Father, we thank Y ou for Y our abundant blessings to our province and ourselves. We ask Y ou to ensure to us Y our guidance and the will to follow it. Amen. head: Introduction of Visitors THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Lesser Slave Lake. MS CALAHASEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's my pleasure to introduce to you and through you Mr. Alexei Bykov, who is visiting Alberta from the Tyumen oblast.

As many of my colleagues are already aware, Tyumen has been Alberta's sister province in Russia since May 1992. Mr. Bykov is the assistant to President Y eltsin's representative to the Tyumen oblast and will be in Alberta for the next two months working with Alberta government and private-sector officials to gain a better under- standing of the legal and regulatory framework governing our petroleum industry. Over the past several months I have had the pleasure of meeting with a number of officials from Tyumen who have come to Alberta to examine our banking, health care, and educational systems.

I believe that through such exchanges and visits and the friendships that develop the citizens of our two provinces come to realize how much we have in common. Since the signing of our agreement Alberta's relations with Tyumen have grown much closer, resulting in a substantia l increase in co-operation in a variety of fields which have been of mutual commercial benefit to both of our provinces. This co-operation is primarily based upon many similarities, such as climate, terrain, resources, and of course the frontier spirit of our people. I would now ask that Mr.

Bykov please rise – he's sitting in the Speaker's gallery – and receive the warm welcome of the members of the Alberta Legislature. MR. TANNAS: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to introduce to you and to Members of the Legislative Assembly Wing Commander Frederick Charles Colborne, a former member of this Assembly. In the 1944 election three members of the armed forces were elected to represent the navy, army, and air force respectively in the 10th Legislative Assembly of Alberta. Wing Commander Colborne of Calgary was elected to represent the air force.

In the general election held August 17, 1948, he was elected to represent the constituency of Calgary for the Social Credit Party and served until 1971. During his years of service in the Legislature he was minister without portfolio, minister of public works, and Minister of Municipal Affairs. Mr. Speaker, he can give personal testimony to the value of chelation therapy. Wing Commander Fred Colborne is seated in your gallery, Mr. Speaker, and I would ask if he would rise and receive the warm traditional welcome of this Assembly. Welcome back. head: Presenting Petitions THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Redwater.

MR. N. TA YLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm presenting a petition on behalf of 181 residents of the Morinville area asking the Legislative Assembly to urge the Government of Alberta to ensure all Alberta school boards provide the opportunity for each eligible child to receive a minimum of 400 hours . . . They also request the Assembly to urge the Government of Alberta to allow Alberta School Boards to use money from the Alberta School Foundation Fund to fund [those] 400 hours. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Shaw. MR. HA VELOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I wish to present a petition signed by in excess of 24,000 Albertans requesting that the Assembly urge the government to amend the Medical Profes- sion Act to allow registered practitioners to employ experimental or nontraditional medical practices "unless . . . the therapy has a safety risk unreasonably greater than the prevailing treatment." THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Lac La Biche-St. Paul. MR. LANGEVIN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I beg leave to table a petition in the Assembly today signed by 45 Albertans urging the government "not to make sexual orientation a part of the Individual's Rights Protection Act." head: Reading and Receiving Petitions THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-North West. MR. BRUSEKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would ask that the petition that I tabled in the House yesterday regarding ECS now be read and received.

CLERK: We the undersigned petition the Legislative Assembly to call for the Government of Alberta to provide quality kindergarten education for our children by maintaining a minimum of 400 hours of instruction per child per school year. This right should be guaranteed by legislation. head: Notices of Motions THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Redwater. MR. N. TA YLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to give notice that at the appropriate time I will rise and present a motion simply stated, "Be it resolved that this Assembly recognize the 50th Anniversary of VE Day." head: Introduction of Bills THE SPEAKER: The hon.

Member for Calgary-Mountain View. Bill 221 Judicial Elections Act MR. HLADY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request leave to introduce Bill 221, being the Judicial Elections Act. The purpose of this Bill is to open up for discussion our judicial system and allow Albertans the ability to determine what they

1548 Alberta Hansard May 4, 1995 believe to be important issues by electing the judges of their choice. [Leave granted; Bill 221 read a first time] THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Shaw. Bill 222 Medical Profession Amendment Act, 1995 MR. HA VELOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request leave to introduce Bill 222, being the Medical Profession Amendment Act, 1995, on behalf of my colleague and sponsor of this Bill the hon. Member for Olds-Didsbury.

This Bill will allow the use of complementary medicine and procedures without censure of the physician provided that the patient is not put at undue risk. [Leave granted; Bill 222 read a first time] THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Currie. Bill 223 Education Employment Relations Statutes Amendment Act, 1995 MRS. BURGENER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I request leave to introduce Bill 223, being the Education Employment Relations Statutes Amendment Act, 1995. Mr.

Speaker, this Bill creates one unified bargaining process between the Alberta School Boards Association and the Alberta Teachers' Association, and in continuing to meet the needs of focusing our students, Bill 223 removes the right to strike by including teachers and school boards in the compensation interest arbitration process. [Leave granted; Bill 223 read a first time] THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark. 1:40 Bill 224 Parliamentary Reform and Electoral Review Commission Act MS LEIBOVICI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I request leave to introduce Bill 224, the Parliamentary Reform and Electoral Review Commission Act. This Bill would establish an independent non-MLA commission that would be required to review issues concerning parliamentary and electoral reform. Some examples of the issues that this commission would examine are things such as recall, fixed election dates and fixed terms, constituent assemblies, citizens' initiatives, and proportional representation.

This is an important adjunct to the government's Bill 20 regarding electoral bound- aries. [Leave granted; Bill 224 read a first time] Bill 225 Lotteries Amendment Act, 1995 MR. WICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I request leave to introduce Bill 225, the Lotteries Amendment Act, 1995.

This Bill would accomplish three things in terms of distribution of lottery funds: first, per capita funding for municipalities to distribute in their areas; secondly, grandfathering existing foundations that r eceive lottery f unding; and thirdly, unused portions would be used to pay down government debt. [Leave granted; Bill 225 read a first time] THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Fort McMurray. Bill 226 Alberta Corporate Tax Amendment Act, 1995 MR. GERMAIN: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. This afternoon I beg leave to introduce Bill 226, the Alberta Corporate Tax Amendment Act, 1995. Mr.

Speaker, when this Bill is passed by this Assembly, it will do two very important things for all Albertans. First of all it will restore the provincial government utility tax rebate on investor- owned utility companies to level the playing field, and secondly, it will assist small business in the creation of jobs for all Albertans by lowering the corporate tax rate paid by small business by 2 percent. [Leave granted; Bill 226 read a first time] head: Tabling Returns and Reports THE SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. EV ANS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

In keeping with our government's commitm ent to full and open disclosure and following the Premier's undertaking in this Legislature on March 28, 1994, I'm tabling today the Saskatchewan report and chronology on the matter of the Paddle River dam and the court case Opron Construction versus the Queen in right of Alberta as well as a copy of the transmittal letter to Saskatchewan. I am also tabling an answer to Written Question 157, and pursuant to my undertaking in this House on April 24 of this year, Mr. Speaker, I'm tabling a status report on the recommendations of the government's young offenders task force.

THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Buffalo. MR. DICKSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two docu- ments to table. Both of them are excerpts from the freedom of information laws in British Columbia and Ontario respectively, and both excerpts clearly indicate in express terms that police commissions in those jurisdictions are indeed subject to the freedom of information laws in both places. Thank you. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. MR. HENRY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to table today four copies of a resolution passed by the Manyberries parent council on February 6, 1995. The resolution urges the Legislature of the Province of Alberta to amend the Alberta School Act to mandate the right of access to fully funded kindergarten programming to a minimum of 400 hours per child per year. Thank you. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Mayfield.

May 4, 1995 Alberta Hansard 1549 MR. WHITE: Well, thank you, Mr. Speaker. Today I'd like to table four copies of a letter received from McArthur elementary school. It reads: We, the McArthur Parent Advisory Council, urge the Legislature of the Province of Alberta to amend the Alberta School Act to mandate the right of access to fully funded kindergarten program- ming to a minimum of 400 hours per child per school year. head: Introduction of Guests MR. DA Y: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to introduce two individu- als from Red Deer in central Alberta.

I would say that they are definitely community leaders and involved in many voluntary functions and associations in Red Deer as well as being involved economically in the oil and gas industry and farming and promot- ing tourism through their bed-and-breakfast, which I'll advertise for them right now. I would ask John and Donna Ellerby if they would stand and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. MR. JONSON: Mr.

Speaker, it's my pleasure this afternoon to introduce to you and through you to members of the Assembly four adults and 16 students from Countryside Christian school, which is located within my constituency. Their group leader is Mr. Dwight Warkentin, the grade 6 to 9 teacher in the sc hool, and they're accompanied and helped out by Mr. and Mrs. Brian Goossen and Mr. Don Bieganek, school trustees with that particular school. They are here I think for a very interesting visit to the Legislature and Edmonton, and I would welcome them and ask them to stand and receive the traditional warm welcome of the Assembly.

THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Bow Valley. DR. OBERG: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's certainly a pleasure to introduce to you and through you today 15 visitors from Gem school who are representative of the excellent educational opportunities afforded by small rural schools. I would like to introduce 10 students and teacher Tim Paetkau, parents Wendy Wallace, Lorill Wallace, Angela Plett, and Wanda Doerksen, who is second cousin to the Member for Red Deer-South. I would ask them to rise and receive the warm welcome of the Legislature. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Mountain View. MR.

HLADY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to introduce to you and through you to the members of the Assembly 31 visitors from Holy Family school. Their t eacher's name is Mr. Dan Kanuka. Four parents are with them as well: Mrs. Gounder, Mrs. Magatas, Mrs. Nickason, and Mrs. Cruz. I'd ask them to please stand and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Shaw. MR. HA VELOCK: Why, thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is my privilege to introduce to you and through you to the members of the Legislature representatives of the chelation therapy association of Alberta.

We have here today in the public gallery Mr. Ken Gerber, who is the president of the provincial board of the EDTA Chelation Association of Alberta. We also have along with Ken a number of representatives from 1 1 chapters throughout the province. I'd invite all the representatives, including the associa- tion's provincial executive, sitting in both galleries to please rise and receive a warm welcome from the Assembly. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Three Hills-Airdrie. MS HALEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have two groups that I would like to introduce today to you and through you to the Legislative Assembly.

The first group is seated in the public gallery. They're a group of grade 10 students from one of my communities, Beiseker, Alberta. They are accompanied by Ms Helen Schneider, Mrs. Marg Kent, Mr. Duane Kent, and Mrs. Laura Halvarson. I would ask that they please rise and receive the warm welcome of our Assembly. The second group that I'm introducing for our colleague from the Barrhead-Westlock riding is three ladies seated in the mem- bers' gallery that are here with us today: Mrs. Gini Labonte, Mrs. Audrey Zilli, and Mrs. Stetchy McLeod.

Would you please stand and receive the warm welcome of the House. 1:50 THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Lacombe-Stettler. MRS. GORDON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to introduce to you and through you two outstanding individuals who reside in the Lacombe-Stettler constituency. They're here this afternoon to observe question period and told me earlier that they are most supportive of what the government is doing. I would ask Alan and Doris Chiswell, who are seated in the members' gallery, to rise and receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. MR. LANGEVIN: It is my pleasure, Mr.

Speaker, to introduce to you and to all the members of the Assembly 15 visitors from the extended care facility in St. Paul. In the group we have eight residents and four volunteers. The volunteers are Karen Martin, Susan Shaw, Mr. Lionel, and Mrs. Irene Leclair. Also in charge of the group is the recreation therapist, Mr. Pat Roche, and Bobbie Jeffery. I would like to say that the group is very thankful today that the Legislature is accessible to handicapped people.

I would ask them to either raise their hands, wave, or stand up and receive the traditional applause from the Legislature. head: Ministerial Statements THE SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. 50th Anniversary of VE Day MR. THURBER: Thank you. Mr. Speaker and hon. members, as one of probably very few members in this Assembly who has actually served on active duty in the Canadian armed forces on aircraft carriers, battleships, and destroyers I feel that it is appropriate that I bring forward this statement today.

As everyone is aware, Monday, May 8 is the actual 50th anniversary of Victory in Europe, or VE, Day. It is also appropriate that we do this today as most of the ceremonies will take place over this weekend and on Monday. VE Day specifically marks the victory of Canada and her allies over Nazi Germany in World War II, but more generally it represents the victory of our free and democratic system over totalitarianism and of our rule of law over the rule of dictators. It is particularly important, Mr.

Speaker, that we use this occasion to reflect on the courage and sacrifice of those Albertans, men and women, who fought and achieved victory in World War II and to again thank Alberta's war veterans from the bottom of our hearts for the freedom that we enjoy here today. Prime Minister Chrétien is preparing to embark upon a mission to Europe to commemorate this significant event. He will be

1550 Alberta Hansard May 4, 1995 attending ceremonies in Holland, England, France, and Russia. As we watch the news coverage, Mr. Speaker, we will be remembering the many thousands of Canadian veterans who spent many years of the war living in England and preparing for the momentous invasion of Europe. That event, D Day, was celebrated last year on the beaches of Normandy.

We will also be remembering that one of our allies in the Second World War was Russia and that Alberta and Edmonton played an important role in airlifting supplies over the North Pole so that the Russians could pursue the war on the eastern front. Perhaps most significantly on this date we will be watching the events in the Netherlands. I am sure that there are many Alber- tans who will share the warm memories that will be experienced next week in the Netherlands.

This includes both the Canadian soldiers who participated in the liberation of the country and the Dutch immigrants to Alberta who were living in Holland in 1945 and experienced the joy of welcoming their Canadian liberators. We can all take pride in this

chapter of Canadian history. Later this month, Mr. Speaker, we will have a ceremony on the Legislature Grounds for the planting of tulips which have been donated to the Alberta government by the government of the Netherlands to commemorate this event. Finally, Mr. Speaker, we cannot forget that VE Day also marks the end of the Nazi Holocaust and the freeing of the concentration camp survivors. We should remember today the many who perished in the camps during the six years of war, whether they were Jewish, Polish, Gypsy, or other nationalities.

For the Premier this will be a particularly poignant moment as he will be visiting Israel in June and paying our respects at the Holocaust memorial, Y ad Vashem. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for West Y ellowhead. MR. V AN BINSBERGEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'm privileged to be able to respond on behalf of my caucus to the excellent statement by the minister. I'd like to begin by thanking him for his personal participation in World War II. I feel doubly privileged because I'm one of those people who was liberated 50 years ago in Holland.

I'm also privileged to have been able to immigrate to Canada in 1962, which is worthy of commemoration to me. Mr. Speaker, over Easter break, just a few weeks ago, I was visiting my parents in Holland, and I noticed that the Dutch people were getting ready to celebrate VE Day, the 50th anniver- sary. The streets were decorated with Dutch and Allied flags, and the Canadian flag was outstandingly predominant. Neighbours and friends of my parents were opening their homes to billet Canadian veterans who are there now in large numbers. There's an enormous amount of affection and respect for Canadians in Holland.

The veterans will be treated royally, because it was primarily the Canadian troops who liberated Holland. I was fortunate, Mr. Speaker, that my city, the city of Nijmegen, was liberated in the fall of 1944. That city is situated on the River Waar, and the bridge across that river was the last bridge to be successfully taken in that famous attack that was commemorated in A Bridge Too Far. Therefore we were very lucky. In those days we spent about two or three days living literally underground as the Canadian troops were mopping up overhead.

When that was finally done and the shooting stopped, we were able to get out, welcome our liberators, and celebrate, and that we did. The Canadian soldiers to us represented not only freedom but also K rations – chocolate, gum, cigarettes – truly manna from heaven because we hadn't had that. Mr. Speaker, I'm still extremely grateful to Canadian soldiers, and so are all residents of the Netherlands, for helping to put an end to the Nazi regime that cost the lives of some 20 million Europeans, including 6 million Jews. We will never forget.

Thank you. [applause] head: Oral Question Period Competition between Public and Private Sectors MR. MITCHELL: Mr. Speaker, my first question addresses the government's most recent double standard. In the government's brave new electric world there won't be any public utility companies competing with private utility companies. It's very interesting, of course, just how this new standard bypasses the Alberta Treasury Branches and the Special Waste Management Corporation legislation, which actually outlaws any competition against the government's friend Bovar.

Is the Minister of Energy telling rural Alberta that her government is going to shut down Treasury Branches, which have served them so well, because Treasury Branches have unfair competitive advantages over private-investor banks and community-based credit unions? MR. DINNING: Mr. Speaker, this government is committed to the Albertans who have confidence in the Treasury Branches of this province. There are over 800,000 deposit accounts. There are over 200,000 loan accounts. There are $9 billion worth of assets. [interjections] THE SPEAKER: Order please. [interjection] Hon. member, please.

Have some respect for proprieties. [interjections] Order. There's a forum to discuss that issue. We're talking about Alberta Treasury Branches now. Provincial Treasurer. MR. DINNING: Mr. Speaker, Albertans to the tune of nearly $9 billion of their life savings have placed their confidence in Treasury Branches. For the member opposite to suggest other- wise undermines that confidence.

I would ask him to curb his zeal, his political zeal, such that it does not in any way undermine the confidence of those Albertans who have confidence in an important institution in this province. [interjections] THE SPEAKER: Order please. 2:00 MR. MITCHELL: Albertans have confidence in Treasury Branches. Edmontonians and the people of Medicine Hat have confidence in their . . . THE SPEAKER: Order. MR.

MITCHELL: How can the Minister of Energy and the Treasurer so self-righteously support pure private-sector competi- tion in electricity when their government has given Bovar a $100 million loan guarantee, is going to end up subsidizing Bovar to the tune of $600 million, and has actually made it illegal for anybody in this province to compete against Bovar? Straighten that one out.

May 4, 1995 Alberta Hansard 1551 MR. DINNING: Mr. Speaker, I know the hon. Minister of Energy would probably want to supplement my answer. The Minister of Environmental Protection is not here today to comment on the subject of the Alberta Special Waste Management Corporation, but clearly it is an environmental priority in this province.

Albertans want those hazardous wastes managed and disposed of, and we as a government have taken the environmen- tal approach, the responsible environmental approach that no other government in this country has taken to ensure that those hazard- ous wastes are disposed of and are managed in a responsible fashion for the health and protection of Albertans. MR. MITCHELL: Do you know what's common, Mr. Speaker? Friends put those deals . . . THE SPEAKER: Order. MR. MITCHELL: This Bill entrenches a very dangerous principle in legislation.

Is it the minister's next step to outlaw municipalities from owning other types of services which may extend beyond their borders; for example, ambulance services, garbage collection, garbage disposal, water and sewer services? Are you going to outlaw those too? MRS. BLACK: Mr. Speaker, I'm going to go through a process, a discussion of how we've arrived where we are today, and it's very clear . . . [interjections] It's very, very difficult. My son was watching question period the other day when he was home sick from school, and he asked me why the members opposite were so terribly rude.

I said that they just couldn't help themselves. Mr. Speaker, the Bill that has been before this Legislature and is at second reading has evolved from a very lengthy process of bringing people together. It has taken us from a situation where our generation of electricity has been regulated and has been pooled and where all Albertans have shared in the pooling, not only of the cost but of the benefit coming out of it, where there's been one price for all Albertans coming out of the EEMA process.

Through these two years of deliberation a new framework came forward to provide for the consumers of electricity not only the benefit of the low power rate that they have today but one that will bring that power rate down even further. As we've gone through this process, there's been an awful lot of debate around the table to get into this new framework, and clearly where we are moving is to a competitive, nonregulated environment for new generation, one that is market driven, one that has competition.

Now, as it pertains to the situation that the members for Edmonton are referring to, Edmonton Power . . . [interjections] Speaker's Ruling Decorum THE SPEAKER: Order please. [interjections] Order please. The noise extends the time. If members would be quiet, the Chair could be more effective in making sure ministers answer the questions succinctly. When they're constantly being barracked . . . [interjections] Order. Hon. minister, please try to complete the answer in a succinct manner. MRS. BLACK: Well, I am trying to move very quickly, Mr. Speaker. Competition between Public and Private Sectors (continued) MRS.

BLACK: Edmonton Power under this legislation will stay as it is today. Will stay as it is today. It'll service the citizens of Edmonton. It's the mission of Edmonton Power to service the people of this community, and they've done a very good job of doing that, Mr. Speaker. The future, however, moves into a market environment, which changes dramatically how all players operate. First of all, there is no more averaging of generation costs and benefits. Secondly, new generation is not regulated. Thirdly, it is strictly market driven.

Now, the question that is so difficult for the hon. members opposite to understand . . . [interjections] Speaker's Ruling Decorum THE SPEAKER: Order please. The Leader of the Opposition asked a very broad, general question covering many areas. [interjections] Order please. [interjections] Order please. Well, if the question is broad the answer should be broad; shouldn't it? [interjections] Order. The answers are the function of the question. Competition between Public and Private Sectors (continued) MRS. BLACK: Well, clearly, Mr.

Speaker, the people from the city of Edmonton will continue to enjoy the low power rates that they enjoy today. What is not being allowed under this legislation is for Edmonton Power, as a Crown corporation, to go beyond that jurisdiction and enter into an unregulated generation position and compete in an international marketplace. Now, one of the questions that has to be . . . [interjections] THE SPEAKER: Looking at the clock, we have now devoted 10 minutes to this question, and perhaps the remaining questions will allow the hon. minister to supplement her answer. Electric Utilities MR.

MITCHELL: My second question, Mr. Speaker, deals with the government's latest double cross. There was an agreement among stakeholders. They had a consensus, and the minister overruled it in the space of three or four days. We know that Alberta Power got to the minister. Could she tell us exactly what they offered her or made her do so that she'd reverse 23 months of consultation and she'd overrule an agreement by all the stakeholders in this province? Will she tell us that? [interjec- tions] THE SPEAKER: Order. [interjections] Order. [interjections] Order. Hon. Leader of the Opposition, order. MRS. BLACK: Mr.

Speaker, when I first started to talk, I talked about the lengthy process, of players at the table. I will tell you that all of the players at the table have known from the very beginning of this process that there were two key elements that had to come out of this: fairness and efficiencies. The debate around the table as to the creation of that market environment and that level playing field and the fairness in competition evolved from around the table. 2:10 The last meeting that I attended with the stakeholder groups at the table, where this debate was raging fiercely over what that

1552 Alberta Hansard May 4, 1995 implied, was not a very good meeting b ecause there was one player that could not agree. The balance of the table agreed to what that evolved into, which wa s in fact what was presented. There was one player . . . [interjections] Just a moment, please. Mr. Speaker, there was one player who was out of step with the rest of the group, and that was Edmonton Power. As I said the other day, you do not stop the entire process because one player cannot r each agreement in a restructuring model, and that's exactly what happened. Mr. Speaker, I need to also say one thing.

I am very disap- pointed yet I'm not surprised at accusations from the Leader of the Opposition coming over here. This is the same behaviour that you demonstrated during the Principal Group affair. MR. MITCHELL: Is it the gove rnment's policy, is it this minister's policy to double-cross all Albertans by throwing out 23 months of consultation, by throwing out an agreement amongst all of the stakeholders on the say-so of a single participant? What do you have to do to get that kind of influence over this government, Mr. Speaker? MRS. BLACK: Mr. Speaker, I don't know whether the hon.

Leader of the Opposition can't hear or what his problem is. I said in my earlier answer that the people around the table could not agree with the position of Edmonton Power. They agreed amongst themselves, but Edmonton Power did not agree with them. The process cannot be stopped because one player doesn't agree. MR. MITCHELL: Why won't the minister just admit that she's prepared to double-cross all Albertans so that she can give some private-sector power company the chance to buy Edmonton Power's coal reserves at fire sale prices?

That's what's really happening here, and she doesn't care about the people of Edmonton or the people of Medicine Hat. MRS. BLACK: Mr. Speaker, this entire restructuring model has been developed to benefit the consumers throughout this entire province, not in one jurisdiction and not to have one jurisdiction have benefit over another but the entire province of Alberta, and to have competition to move prices down. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-West. MR. DALLA-LONGA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The city of Medicine Hat electrical department is a good example of an efficient power producer.

It is a proud city that has led the way in innovative ideas and methods of delivering some of the lowest cost power to the residents in its area. Since Monday I've received some calls from residents of Medicine Hat expressing concern about some of the serious implications of Bill 34 that will affect its ability to continue being a low-cost producer. My first question is to the Minister of Energy. After you discussed and consulted and debated the draft version of Bill 34, why didn't you show city council the final, new, discriminatory version that showed up in the House? MRS. BLACK: Mr.

Speaker, a week ago on Tuesday I had a meeting in my office here in the Legislature with the two members of this Legislature from Medicine Hat and the mayor of Medicine Hat. We went through the proposal of the Bill that was to be tabled in this House. We explained the situation to him in detail, and in fact I believe the hon. Member for Medicine Hat the other night discussed this in second reading debate and went through an example of things we talked about, the future for Medicine Hat.

Clearly, Medicine Hat has been very effective – very effective – in developing their utility industry to service their community. They have also been very effective in managing their gas reserves in that community, and they will continue to do that. That is exactly what this Bill does. It grandfathers the Medicine Hat utility to service their own community. That's exactly what they wanted to do, and that is exactly what is in this Bill. MR. DALLA-LONGA: The objective, Mr. Speaker, is the lowest cost power.

Why has it suddenly become this government's policy to prevent efficiently run, municipally owned utilities such as Medicine Hat from exploring development in low-cost generation projects outside the service area, which would reduce the cost of power to other Albertans? MRS. BLACK: Mr. Speaker, you have to, I guess, go back to the decision that this House will have to make, and that decision will be . . . MR. MITCHELL: A free vote? A free vote? MRS. BLACK: Mr. Speaker, we have free votes on our side. I very rarely see one on their side.

The decision has to be made clearly in this House as the debate evolves on this piece of legislation. If we are going to have governments entering into the marketplace, you have to ask the question: if the government is entering into a marketplace beyond their own community, who bears the risk?

Who bears the risk of the investment for that community? [interjections] Oh, the hon. leader has said right now that if Edmonton Power develops beyond its municipal needs and goes into that international community – remember the interconnect goes all the way south – that Albertans, the people of Edmonton are going to bear the financial risk if those projects go wrong. They'll get the benefit, but they'll have to bear the risk. That's what he's saying. MR. DALLA-LONGA: Medicine Hat has never been a financial risk. Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Energy.

Why are you trying to pass a Bill that according to Medicine Hat would impair such things as the future ability of the city to replace its obsolete generating units with newer and more efficient units? MRS. BLACK: Mr. Speaker, the Bill doesn't do that at all. In fact, they can continue . . . [interjections] THE SPEAKER: Order. [interjections] Order, hon. members. [interjection] Order. MR. CHADI: It's in the Bill, Mr. Speaker. THE SPEAKER: Well, then leave it for the debate on the Bill. MR. CHADI: Well, let's debate it. THE SPEAKER: The hon.

Member for Edmonton-Roper doesn't realize yet at what stage of the proceedings the debate occurs? The hon. member should get with it and learn how the Assembly works. The hon. Member for Medicine Hat.

May 4, 1995 Alberta Hansard 1553 2:20 Excellence in Teaching Awards MR. RENNER: Thank you Mr. Speaker. Last weekend I had the honour and in fact the privilege of presenting on behalf of the Minister of Education to Mr. Bob Buday, a teacher in Medicine Hat, an award in recognition of his being chosen as a finalist in the excellence in teaching awards. That o ccasion reinforced in my mind the tremendous dedication and concern that all teachers have for their students. I was again impressed with the tremen- dous ability of the teachers and their commitment to their students.

I understand that today the minister has released a press release announcing the 20 finalists in this excellent program, and I would like to ask the minister a number of questions about this program. With the many, many hundreds of excellent teachers in this province I would like to ask the minister: what is the process that is involved to name just 20 teachers to receive special recognition under this program? MR. JONSON: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. member is quite correct in identifying that there are across this province – and I would go a little bit further than his statement – thousands and thousands of very fine and dedicated teachers. To get to the question that the hon. member has posed, we invite nominations from across the province for the excellence in teaching awards. This year it's my understanding that approximately 490 teachers were so nominated across the province.

Because it's a significant achievement in itself to be nominated, we do provide recognition at the local level in the form of a letter and so forth from the Department of Education. From those 490 excellent nominations we do have a multiparty, neutral selection committee that looks at all of those applications and goes through them. I'm sure that sitting on that committee, Mr. Speaker, must be a very difficult task. When you have in the nominations such phrases as "a treasure," "a special talent," "rare ability," it's something certainly that indicates that these are very, very fine teachers.

Out of, in this case, 490 nominations we select 20 for special recognition in the province. I think they are truly outstanding teachers, those 20 that have been selected. Finally, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to say two things. First of all, I think those teachers take some satisfaction – they certainly should – in the recognition that will be given to them as the 20 finalists, but I think they probably also feel that they are doing something on behalf of the other teachers in the province of Alberta, that they're representing all teachers. THE SPEAKER: Supplementary question. MR. RENNER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I understand that this weekend in Calgary a gala presentation will be held honouring these 20 finalists. I wonder how the costs of this function are handled by the minister's department. MR. JONSON: Mr. Speaker, it is correct that there is a dinner and a presentation ceremony planned for Saturday evening in Calgary. Y es, quite frankly there is every effort being made to make this a classy, a very special occasion for these teachers and their guests.

Alberta Education is contributing some funds to this particular event, but I would like to emphasize that corporate sponsors with whom we have entered into a partnership are carrying the majority of the cost, and we hope we can make an arrangement where this will continue and perhaps expand in the future. MR. RENNER: Could the minister advise the House: exactly what is the award that those recipients will be receiving this weekend? MR. JONSON: The actual award is what I consider to be a very attractive commemorative certificate, which is provided to each teacher. [interjections] Mr.

Speaker, obviously the people across the way do not feel that this is very important. I think perhaps the point of the hon. member's question is – and I'd like to emphasize it – that except for the certificate, there is no personal gain here involved for the individual teachers receiving this award. There is a modest cash donation that is made to the school, not to the individual, hon. members across the way, in case that's your concern, from the corporate sponsors. I think the important thing is that there is suitable recognition being given to these fine teachers. THE SPEAKER: The hon.

Member for Lethbridge-East. Electric Utilities (continued) DR. NICOL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We've heard many times how the new Electric Utilities Act will limit competition in generation of electricity. Everyone knows that limiting competi- tion increases the price. I would like to ask the Minister of Energy: how can the minister justify to rural Albertans that they'll have to pay more than necessary for their electricity? MRS.

BLACK: Under the provisions of the new Act the generation that we have in the province of Alberta and the overabundance of generation that we have is grandfathered through the EEMA process. Every Albertan from north to south to east and west will continue to share in those low power costs. That does not change. As we move down the road five, 10 years and require new generation, the market will determine what that cost will be. It w ill probably be a tendering process, and communities or businesses will have the opportunity to go out and bid for that generation. That head-on competition will drive the price down.

So the myth, Mr. Speaker, that the opposition is trying to create, which is just plain false, is that prices are going to go from being this level – under this legislation they're going to go down. That's how they're going. It's a myth to indicate to Albertans that there's an increase. DR. NICOL: Mr. Speaker, how can the minister justify limiting municipalities all across Alberta by not allowing them to build efficient sized plants and offering their initial excesses to other users through the grid? MRS. BLACK: Y ou see, Mr. Speaker, this government doesn't believe that governments should be in business.

That side of the House . . . [interjections] THE SPEAKER: Order. [interjections] Order. Final supplemental, hon. member for Lethbridge-East. DR. NICOL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It would be nice if this government believed in allowing the people to make their own choice. Mr. Speaker, my final question is again to the Minister of Energy. Will the minister put the fair and open competition

1554 Alberta Hansard May 4, 1995 provision for generation back into the legislation and take her discriminatory provision on municipalities out? THE SPEAKER: We're getting into debate on the Bill, hon. member, with that kind of questioning. MR. N. TA YLOR: Not if it's yes or no. THE SPEAKER: Order. It doesn't matter whether or not it's a yes or no, Redwater. It's still debate on the Bill. The hon. Member for Calgary-Currie. 2:30 School District Boundaries MRS. BURGENER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The restructuring of education has included discussions on open boundaries.

Open boundaries mean different things to different communities depending on the availability of programs, tuition agreements, and other local factors. Parents and students need to be clear about who can attend their local schools and who is responsible for setting attendance policies. My questions today are to the Minister of Education. Could the minister please explain how the term "open boundaries" applies to students? MR. JONSON: Mr. Speaker, the School Act provides that students in the province of Alberta may attend any school in the province provided room and space and resources are available.

The funding framework provides that all instruction and related funding will follow the student to the jurisdiction with the exception – and let me be clear – of any funding in provision for transportation, and that is being clarified in Bill 37. THE SPEAKER: First supplemental. MRS. BURGENER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Again to the Minister of Education: what criteria can a board include in developing attendance policies? MR. JONSON: Mr. Speaker, I think there are two fundamental criteria if we're talking about attendance policies.

All school boards across the province are expected to have attendance policies which provide for regular attendance in school. Certainly that's the whole purpose of our education system: attendance and education. In addition to that, every school board in the province is expected to establish a set of policies dealing with appropriate conduct and dedication of students to their studies, and that is expected of all school boards across the province. Students entering any school in the province are expected to abide by those. MRS.

BURGENER: My final supplemental, again to the minister: is it the purview of the school board or the government to establish the attendance policy of the students for their local jurisdiction? MR. JONSON: Well, Mr. Speaker, certainly it is the expectation of school boards across this province that they will establish attendance policies, but those attendance policies – and I'd like to make this clear – have to be within the context of Alberta government legislation and any constitutional requirements that might be related to them. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Buffalo. Human Rights Commission MR.

DICKSON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Albertans are dismayed to learn that organizations like the Aryan Nations view this province as a welcome place to promote their hatred and racism. Y et at the very same time we need strong leadership to respond to this kind of evil, the government refuses to take action on the report from its own task force on ways to strengthen our Human Rights Commission, a report which has been sitting on the desk of the Minister of Community Development for the last 10 months.

My question is to the minister responsible for the Alberta Human Rights Commission, the Minister of Community Development. How many more hatemongers or neo-Nazis or white supremacists or anti-Semites must set up office in Alberta before your government will act? THE SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Community Development. MR. MAR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There's no doubt that we will be protecting human rights in the province of Alberta. We are committed to that principle, and we are committed to the Human Rights Commission.

On the subject of the recommendations that were made by the review panel, it is not correct when the hon. Member for Calgary- Buffalo suggests that it's just been sitting on my desk for the last 10 months. In fact, as I've said in this House before, it's going through our standing policy committees for review, b ecause, of course, Mr. Speaker, these are very important principles. There are some 75 recommendations that were contained in that report.

Each one of them requires the requisite amount of time to carefully consider to determine which of those recommendations can reasonably be implemented and which cannot. MR. DICKSON: Mr. Speaker, since we now have the report of the Canadian Mental Health Association, Alberta division, the report of the office of the Ombudsman, and the report from the Premier's own task force, will you at least accept the recommen- dation that comes from all three sources; that is, to make the Human Rights Commission independent of your government and your ministry? MR. MAR: Well, Mr.

Speaker, throughout our debates on this the hon. Member for Calgary-Buffalo has always suggested that somehow the Human Rights Commission is not in fact independ- ent, but certainly the comments made by the chief commissioner of that commission, Charlach Mackintosh, who has placed an 18- month plan in place to deal with the backlog, which is a serious issue for the Human Rights Commission, to make sure that it gets through all of its cases – Mr. Mackintosh himself has said that there has been no interference by the minister or anybody from government.

In fact when you look at our Human Rights Commission, the model that we use for how the Human Rights Commission operates is similar to many other provinces in Canada in that administratively it does deal with the department, but with respect to its policy and its investigations it is completely inde- pendent of government. MR. DICKSON: The minister need only talk to a long list of past chief commissioners.

Since a stronger, independent commission is needed particularly now in Alberta to respond to the new challenge, will the minister commit that the commission will not be weakened by merger with a host of other agencies and organizations?

May 4, 1995 Alberta Hansard 1555 MR. MAR: Well, Mr. Speaker, as members of this House are well aware, one of the things that we are looking at is to make administrative savings in the way that we deal with human rights in this province. There are other commissions that have resources that deal with issues that are very, very similar to those that are dealt with by the Human Rights Commission. One looks at the Multiculturalism Commission. The issue of racism is a serious societal issue that is dealt with by the Multiculturalism Commis- sion.

The question that must be asked is whether it makes sense to employ the resources of the Multiculturalism Commission and put them in tandem with the Human Rights Commission and perhaps deal with these issues without duplication and without waste of effort. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Cypress-Medicine Hat. Work Site Safety DR. L. TA YLOR: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Occupational health and safety is a concern to workers and employers alike in my constituency. However, some constituents are telling me that Alberta Labour is reducing its emphasis on promoting and enforcing occupational health and safety standards.

To the Minister of Labour: is it true that your department is reducing its emphasis on safety in the workplace? MR. DA Y: Mr. Speaker, to encourage health and safety in the workplace, there are basically two approaches you can take. Y ou can use, if I can use the analogy, the big stick of legislation and attend on a work site with the stick, as it were, the stick of fines and . . . [interjection] THE SPEAKER: Order please. Would the hon. Minister of Transportation and Utilities cease conversing with other members in the Assembly while his neighbour is trying to answer a question. The hon. Minister of Labour. MR.

DA Y: Thank you for the ruling, Mr. Speaker. However, I know that my colleague does love his neighbour, so I won't take it personally. I can tell you that you can use the big stick of legislation and attend on a work site with threats of fines or sanctions, but when you do that and you leave the work site, you'll immediately have a reversion to previous tendencies, which may not be, in fact, to promote health and safety.

When you encourage partnerships, when you move away from an interventionist role to a facilitation role, you get people in the workplace actively buying in through a process of incentives and other things. So whether there is an actual officer in the workplace or not, you have a buy-in, a culture developing in the workplace that promotes between the employees and the employers the meeting of the high standard of health and safety. That's what we've been doing. It's a shift in role, but I can tell you it is not a shift in emphasis. 2:40 DR. L.

TA YLOR: If you are not reducing the emphasis on safety, why are you reducing the staff of the occupational health and safety department? MR. DA Y: Well, with the process that we've been taking, Mr. Speaker, something fairly exciting has been developing over the last couple of years. We now have over 40 industry associations that among themselves and with their employee groups are actively doing the promotion of health and safety in the work- place. In terms of the number of workers, that's about 25 percent of our workforce right now actively engaged in industry associa- tions.

That's about 200,000 workers, and the three-year business plan of this department is to see that move to 50 percent, which would be about half a million workers and employers actively involved in health and safety promotion. DR. L. TA YLOR: What concrete results can you demonstrate from the partnerships you speak of? MR. DA Y: Well, I'm glad the member is pressing for actual measurement and outcome, and that's readily available even now. There are over a thousand companies that have bought into industry associations. What does that mean to them?

I'll use the metal fabricating industry as one example, where there has been a history of fairly high injury rates. In 1994 and in this year you'll see 85 metal fabricating companies receiving rebate initiatives of some $800,000 because of buying into a partnership. One hundred and forty-six road-building companies – again an area of historic high injury rates – will be receiving partnership incentive rebates on their WCB of some $700,000. More importantly than that, the injury rate now has dropped to just slightly over 3.25 on the work site. That's the lowest that it's been.

That means workers are not being injured, that means their families are not being stressed by that, and that means communi- ties and workplaces are clearly benefiting from these programs. Medical Laboratory Tests MR. SAPERS: Mr. Speaker, where you live and how much money you have now determines what health services you get. Calgarians have to send $185 to a U.S. lab for a genetic test that is still insured in Alberta.

Priv ate clinics in Calgary, Canmore, and perhaps other places are poised to take advantage of this government's agenda to continue to deinsure many medical services, so only those with cash can get full and complete health care. Will the Minister of Health please explain the difference between Calgarians having to spend $185 for a genetic test to be performed by a laboratory in the United States and a two-tiered, Americanized health care system? MRS. McCLELLAN: Mr. Speaker, I'd be more than pleased to try to respond to the hon. member if he would give the specific test.

Alberta Health does not cover, does not fund all genetic testing, does not fund all testing. The principle of our system in Canada, not just in Alberta, is that we provide funds that are for procedures that have some benefit or need. I am sure the hon. member is not suggesting that we would fund every test that is available for just anything. So maybe the hon. member would like to be specific on the test. MR. SAPERS: Certainly. The AFP3 genetic test for chemical tagging on maternal blood, Mr. Speaker.

Now, perhaps the Minister of Health will be able to explain why some Albertans who are concerned about skin cancer, for example, have to pay for the biopsies of tissue that's been removed while other Albertans don't. MRS. McCLELLAN: Mr. Speaker, on the first issue I would point out to the hon. member again my first answer. The decision as to whether a test is appropriate is made on the basis of

1556 Alberta Hansard May 4, 1995 scientific reasoning, and in some instances a test may be covered for a certain age group but not for others, for certain conditions but not for others. Professionals, people who have expertise in those fields, do that. I think if the hon. member examined Alberta Health's business plan and if he also observed what the Auditor General has said repeatedly, that we should be assured that the dollars we are spending are indeed having a positive impact or outcome for the people that we're spending them on – that is the point of this whole discussion.

In a managed care system you cannot fund everything that is available. There will always be decisions that have to be made, and I believe that we should ask the experts, the professionals as to whether tests should be performed and on whom, by whom, and when. MR. SAPERS: It's hard to pick just one, Mr. Speaker.

Given, then, that the minister references the Auditor General, perhaps the minister will tell the Assembly what specific controls, specific with the Auditor Genera l's report, the minister has put into place to ensure that no, zero, no public money subsidizes health care for essential services performed in for-profit clinics. MRS. McCLELLAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. member brings up a point. Certainly I'm glad to hear he has support for our position in Alberta.

We have clearly asked, along with nine other provinces and the territories, to meet with the federal government, who has the legislation, the Canada Health Act, to give us some clarification as to the intention of the Canada Health Act and what it is intended to cover to ensure that that indeed does not happen. So, Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased today to hear that the hon. Member for Edmonton-Glenora supports our position, because this is a very, very important point. It's the first time I've really received that indication in this House, and I applaud him. MR. SAPERS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Down's Syndrome Testing MR. DOERKSEN: Mr. Speaker, the Member for Edmonton- Glenora references an

article in the Calgary Herald regarding biochemical screening of pregnant women which tests for Down's syndrome. I believe that this testing was part of a larger research project funded under a government grant. Would the Minister of Health first provide a background of this project and what its purpose is? MRS. McCLELLAN: The testing for hereditary disease program was introduced in this province in 1979. The particular program that the hon. member is referring to is one that was funded by a research grant.

Since then these dollars have been rolled into overall operating budgets at the Alberta Children's hospital and the Children's health centre in Edmonton. Mr. Speaker, I believe the particular test, after the research project was completed, showed about a 70 percent accuracy rate. There is another test that is 100 percent accurate. This test was only for persons under 35 years of age, where the risk is much lower than it is for persons over 35. MR. DOERKSEN: Madam Minister, is the government support- ing financially tests which could provide impetus for women to terminate pregnancies? MRS. McCLELLAN: Mr.

Speaker, that is certainly not the intention of the testing that does occur. However, the testing that does occur offers opportunities for information, for counseling, and for work with the persons affected. MR. DOERKSEN: Would the minister advise this Assembly if Alberta Health has a framework in place under which the ethical issues raised under such testing programs are examined and reported for public scrutiny? MRS. McCLELLAN: Mr.

Speaker, this is an ongoing concern, not only in Alberta but in Canada and the world, on ethical questions in health as certainly there is a much broader way of doing genetic testing and things like that. We are implementing a health ethics network in this province. We are very fortunate to have a very high degree of expertise that is willing to be a partner in this program, and I think this is a very important initiative.

We will be able to refer to that body questions such as this. 2:50 THE SPEAKER: Before proceeding to Members' Statements, as the time for question period has expired, is there consent in the Assembly to revert to Introduction of Guests? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. THE SPEAKER: Opposed? The hon. Minister of Education. head: Introduction of Guests (reversion) MR. JONSON: Y es, Mr. Speaker. It is certainly my pleasure and privilege this afternoon to introduce to you and through you to members of the Assembly 38 visitors from the nation of Thailand. They are students, and they are accompanied by their teachers.

They are being hosted in Edmonton by Victoria composite high school. I believe in the group this afternoon are Mr. Lau, who is the co-ordinator of such activities at Victoria composite, and their principal, Mr. Maskell. The teachers from Thailand are Gayoon Deprasert and Bang-orn Maipradit, and pardon me for the pr onunciations. I know that teachers are important, and I would apologize if I was not right on with the introductions. I think that Thailand is a very growing and dynamic country in the Pacific area and one that Alberta does well to have visitors from. Mr.

Speaker, I would also like to just briefly mention that Victoria composite high school, in addition to being known for their performing arts program, is certainly a leader in the province in terms of developing exchanges and understandings with countries in the Pacific Rim, and Mr. Maskell has certainly been a leader in that. I could go on with the accomplishments of Victoria composite, but I would like to really focus on what's important this afternoon, and that is to welcome our guests and ask them to stand and please receive the warm welcome of the Assembly. head: Members' Statements Welfare State DR. L.

TA YLOR: Mr. Speaker, today I wish to put forward a fundamental proposition. That proposition is that the welfare state has failed. The evidence that the welfare state has failed is clear: massive debt, programs we can no longer afford, and a break- down of traditional structures in society resulting in social and moral problems that people despair of solving.

May 4, 1995 Alberta Hansard 1557 The greatest failure of the welfare state is its direct and indirect undermining of personal strength. It encourages people to rely on government programs instead of their own strength as this gives government control over its citizens. If your economic welfare depends on the state and its bureaucrats, then the state has ultimate control. Secondly, the welfare state has failed b ecause it discourages work, which in turn reduces personal discipline and responsibility, all qualities necessary for the survival of a democratic society.

How many times have all of us heard: "Why should I work? I can get more on welfare." Thirdly, the welfare state has failed because it undermines the family. Making adults of the family rely on the state precipitates a cycle of dependency that causes the loss of self-respect and the loss of respect for others in the family. We see the proof of this daily in family breakdown and family abuse. Finally, the welfare state has failed because it undermines individual integrity through its sheer number of rules. As a result, people see the rules as worthless and either ignore them or deliberately break them.

Rules that are necessary for the mainte- nance of a democratic society then are viewed in the same way as bureaucratic regulations. It then becomes acceptable to ignore or break necessary societal rules, as evidenced on the television news in the violence we see every day. Because the welfare state has reduced the citizen to a client, has subordinated its c itizens to the bureaucrat, and has subjected citizens to rules that are antiwork, antifamily, and antiopportunity, we have a country poised on the precipice of economic and social disaster.

We have a welfare state that cannot be repaired but must be replaced, and in a future member's statement I will provide a vision of that replacement. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Rutherford. Michener Park MR. WICKMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I want to talk today about a group fighting for a cause, just like we see the ladies and gentlemen up in the public gallery and the members' gallery fighting for a cause that they believe in. I have a group in my constituency of Edmonton-Rutherford that live in the Michener Park residence that are concerned about the future of that residence.

Many of you would have seen it at 122nd Street and 45th Avenue. Myself along with the members for Edmonton-Whitemud and Edmonton-Strathcona have worked with those residents and their task force to try and come to a viable solution, and they have approached it with a very viable solution. They've been very, very reasonable. They've looked at the options that would satisfy the communities surrounding that such as Lansdowne, such as Lendrum, such as Malmo Plains, those communities that members like myself and again the members for Edmonton-Whitemud and Edmonton-Strathcona represent.

Those community leaders are involved in this, and they, again, are very reasonable in their approach to resolving this very difficult issue. Our Member for Edmonton-Whitemud was at a meeting there very recently and heard firsthand what they're proposing. I am concerned, Mr. Speaker, with the sincerity of the university task force as to whether there is the possibility – and I would hope not – of a hidden agenda, as to whether there have been plans made to sell that off, to privatize it. I would hope there's not, because those residents do see a more viable alternative.

When the bottom line comes, there is legislation in place. The Minister of Ad- vanced Education and Career Development has to monitor this. He will be involved in the decision-making process, if there is a major decision at stake, because of the Universities Act, which makes it very clear that when we ta lk in terms of an asset, of a value over X number of dollars, he has to give his stamp of approval. So I'd hope that the minister does monitor it, that the minister ensures that the settlement, the approach, the solution is fair and respects the wishes of the communities and respects the wishes of the residents.

Thank you. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Stony Plain. Alberta Summer Games MR. WOLOSHYN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On July 9, 1993, the town of Stony Plain, the city of Spruce Grove, and the county of Parkland were jointly awarded the 1995 Alberta Summer Games, which are going to commence this July 27 and run through the 30th. Opening ceremonies will be held at the Meridian Sports Park in Stony Plain on July 27 at 7:30, and I'm glad to say that the local station, CFRN TV, will cover the event.

The volunteers from the three communities have been working together diligently and are proving with their strong community leadership and the financial commitment of our local businesses that they are more than capable of matching the proud tradition of excellence in hosting the 1995 Summer Games. The public response and co-operation of the three communities has been tremendous.

The games committee has everyone involved from grades 1 and 2 school children naming Sneakers as their official mascot to the various service clubs assisting with fund-raising events and a whole army of volunteers and small businesses who have thrown their full support behind the games. The games committee has a budget of approximately $1,100,000. It's a significant budget. The fund-raising commit- tee has planned and held a number of exciting and innovative events, which have been immensely successful. For example, on October 2 of '94 the kick-off event raised $10,000 through a mayors' challenge walk.

On the 29th of October a super bingo raised $66,000. We have had a van raffle on November 30. There's a land raffle coming up that should be quite exciting with, I believe, three parcels. There's a golf tournament coming up. Mr. Speaker, I'm very pleased to add that the local business community has really demonstrated their enthusiastic support for the volunteers in the games, and I'm proud to announce just a few of the sponsors. TransAlta Utilities have pledged $50,000 towards the opening ceremonies. Canada Safeway is sponsoring the volunteer apparel and wind-up party.

Alberta Treasury Branch is sponsoring closing ceremonies. Fording Coal, Maste- rCard, the credit union, Spruce Grove and district agricultural society, and Boston Pizza are all involved. Mr. Speaker, our communities have proven what can be accomplished. They're going to be super games. I'm pleased to close by saying that these games take in all of the constituency of Stony Plain and a part of the constituency of Spruce Grove- Sturgeon-St. Albert, and I look forward to having very successful, co-operative games. Thank you very much. head: Projected Government Business 3:00 MRS. HEWES: Mr.

Speaker, may I ask the hon. House leader to detail for us what the projected government business will be next week?

1558 Alberta Hansard May 4, 1995 MR. DA Y: Mr. Speaker, today, as we've already indicated, we'll be in Committee of the Whole and also third reading, should we make that kind of progress. On Monday in the afternoon and extending into the evening we'll then go to second readings as per the Order Paper and beginning with Bill 27, which is the Live- stock and Livestock Products Amendment Act, 1995. We are, as I indicated last week to the Opposition House Leader, at that stage in the session where the daily business is determined by what happens the day before.

So after we are through those second readings, depending on how they progress, I will be in communication, as has been the case every day of the session, with the Opposition House Leader to indicate then from there if we'll be moving into committee and what Bills. That will pretty well govern the day on Monday, and then we'll take it a day at a time from there. THE SPEAKER: Did the hon. Government House Leader indicate that he had a point of order that he wished to raise? Point of Order Decorum MR. DA Y: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Often we cite in the Assembly – most of us have it memorized, and we say it almost flippantly at times – Standing Orders 23(h), 23(i), 23(j), and in this case 23(l). Just to remind members, 23(

h) deals with it being in fact out of order to make "allegations against another mem- ber," 23(

i) talks about imputing "false or unavowed motives to another member," 23(

j) talks about using "abusive or insulting language of a nature likely to create disorder," and 23(

l) talks about introducing "any matter in debate which offends the practices and precedents of the Assembly." I would suggest, Mr. Speaker, that on any given day any one of us can stretch these rules, and often we do, and I think we all have to admit that none are completely i nnocent of that. How- ever, today I would suggest that we hit new lows in this particular domain. I would not stand here and deem to say which side of the House was the most raucous, though I think anybody watching or listening would easily be able to determine that.

I want to refer specifically to remarks made by the Opposition House Leader using a term, "double cross," which certainly would abundantly fit any of the errors of offence I've already listed here. Then later on during the day there were interjections talking about an individual member of this House being "bought out" or words to that effect. Mr. Speaker, certainly we defer to your wisdom on this, but I would suggest that those types of accusations fall far below the level of debate expected by the people who fund this operation, which are the taxpayers of this province.

With a ruling of those being out of order, there may be a slim possibility that the Opposition House Leader, for using such an offensive term, and others, for using offensive terms, may condescend to an apology. When a person apologizes, it does bear upon them a certain air of humility but also a certain air of dignity. That type of dignity on an individual basis can go a long way to promoting more of an atmosphere of decorum in the House, which these rules are intended to protect. THE SPEAKER: Before recognizing the hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar, I believe that the hon.

Government House Leader was referring to the Leader of the Opposition rather than the Opposition House Leader; was he not? MR. DA Y: Thank you for that correction. I was obviously not referring to the Opposition House Leader but in fact the Leader of the Opposition. MRS. HEWES: Mr. Speaker, just in responding to what I don't believe is a point of order, certainly we all know that the hon. Government House Leader loves to have a platform to make this kind of a statement so that he can get into print, I suppose. This kind of theatre is exactly the kind of thing that he enjoys and clearly believes he's very good at.

This member as well is one that is given to making comments, and I have raised that with you before, sir. It happened again yesterday, and I did not raise it as a point of order, but I probably should have, listening to this. Mr. Speaker, I would just like to comment that you, sir, are the ruler of this House, and it is your rule that I look to. It seems to me that by these comments the hon. member is challenging what it is that you did or did not do today. I believe that is most improper.

If you in fact had thought that any of these remarks were improper – and you did call us to order on a number of occasions – I'm sure you would have asked any individual member to apologize. Y ou've done that on other occasions, sir, and I trust your judgment in this regard. I don't think there is a point of order. THE SPEAKER: Well, the Chair has always had a policy of trying to allow the greatest freedom to the use of words in the English language in this Assembly. There has on various occasions been a long list of words that developed that have been ruled unparliamentary on previous occasions.

Actually, the list in Beauchesne is really quite small compared to the list that has accumulated here in our own Assembly over the years. It's certainly not the intention of the occupant of this Chair to expand greatly the words that are already on that list. The general principle is that words that are likely to provoke a great deal of confrontation and disorder in the Assembly should be avoided. When the Chair heard the words "double cross" and "bought off", there was a certain reflex within the Chair that the Chair did not like hearing those words.

I suppose they had the effect of the intent in using them, but the Chair doesn't feel that those words are designed for the best results and the best opera- tion of the Assembly. The Chair also recognizes what the hon. Member for Edmonton-Gold Bar said, that it tends to be a two-way street. Sometimes the Chair does get the impression that one lane of the street is more heavily traveled than the other; nevertheless, it is still a two-way street. The Chair would urge hon. members to reflect on this over the weekend and try to get things back to a more normal level next week. Thank you. The hon.

Member for Edmonton-Glenora had a point of order he wished to raise. Point of Order Allegations against Members MR. SAPERS: Y es. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I am rising under Standing Order 23(h), which of course is making "allega- tions against another member." During question period the Minister of Health, in response to a question from myself, alleged that I supported the government's privatization plans for health care and was in fact in support of the government initiatives in terms of delisting and forcing more commercial health care in this province.

That is an allegation that I couldn't let go unanswered because it is clearly a misunderstanding on the part of the minister, and it

May 4, 1995 Alberta Hansard 1559 may even be more sinister than just a misunderstanding. It could in fact be a deliberate twisting of the question for some political gain, and that, I know, would be unacceptable. So I would like it to be stated very clearly that not this member nor any member on this side of the Assembly is in favour of the government's drive towards a two-tiered, Americanized health care system. I would appreciate the Minister of Health retracting that particular allegation, because it is untrue. MR. DA Y: Well, clearly the member opposite is stung by the words from the Minister of Health.

However, I would suggest that this is no point of order at all but merely a point of clarifica- tion and using up our time to do that. THE SPEAKER: Well, the rules do provide for hon. members to clarify their positions. The Chair will take it as the Minister of Health misunderstanding what the hon. Member for Edmonton- Glenora said. head: Motions under Standing Order 40 3:10 50th Anniversary of VE Day THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Redwater has an application to make to the Assembly under Standing Order 40 on the question of urgency. MR. N. TA YLOR: Mr.

Speaker, in speaking to the question of urgency, I think it sort of solves itself. There was a ministerial statement on it. There are people in the gallery that are honour- ing VE Day. So I think to move things along, there's no need to prolong the debate on urgency, and I would ask for the House's unanimous approval for this. THE SPEAKER: Is there consent in the Assembly for the hon. Member for Redwater to place his motion under Standing Order 40? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. THE SPEAKER: Opposed? Moved by Mr. N. Taylor:

Be it resolved that this Assembly recognize the 50th anniversary of VE Day. MR. N. TA YLOR: Mr. Speaker, in the minister's statement and of course in what we've read and seen in the last few days, there's been quite a concentration on what we owe the veterans and what sacrifices were made. I was chosen by the caucus to make the motion today, not really for the best of reasons, maybe because I was one of the oldest ones and therefore was able to serve in the navy. It does bring back a few memories. When I saw the hon. Fred Colborne in the gallery, it brought back memories.

After the war we had three members at large. Mr. Colborne represented the air force. It's interesting that he moved on to become a Social Credit minister. Harper Prowse represented the army and went on to be Liberal leader, one of a long line to which I have the distinction of belonging. It's better than the race lines of Sea Biscuit, really, and a few of the other great race horses of our time. Lastly, Mr. Liesemer, if you'll remember, represented the navy, which was where I put in my own service. What I want to talk about a bit is not the sacrifices and importance of VE Day itself, which was victory in Europe.

Some people think it's veteran's day, but it's victory in Europe. I remember that when it occurred, I was part of a parade that was in Victoria. I had been transferred back there for Pacific training. What I thought was most important, Mr. Speaker – and I couldn't help but think of it when I heard one of the private member's statements that talked about the end of the welfare state – is that so much of that talk that I hear today was present in the '20s and '30s, which led to the fact that racism was all right.

It was all right to get rid of the weaker members of society; it was all right to get rid of the minorities; it was all right to get rid of people that were not in the majority, all in the name of efficiency in the '20s and '30s. I think it's very important today that maybe we rededicate ourselves to remember. To some of us that are old enough to remember, that is the initial small, tiny bit that leads to prejudice and getting rid of people that are not in the mainstream of thought.

I think it's very important that we rededicate ourselves to saying that it's the dignity of the individual that's important, not the progress of the state. If you start saying that the progress of the state is all important – and this is something, again, I learned after the war, Mr. Speaker. For six years I was lucky enough to be – mainly because they couldn't agree on a chairman – the chairman of one of the national oil companies of Israel. I worked with many, many people, survivors of the Holocaust, learned a lot from working with them.

It's always the idea of the efficiency of the state that starts out putting into place some of the discriminations against the minorities that we have to worry about. I think the important thing we could remember on VE Day today – I think of all my friends, and some of those have passed on – is not so much the sacrifice they made but the fact that we will see that we will not have to go through that again. MR. KOW ALSKI: Mr. Speaker, at the outset let me thank the Member for Redwater for bringing forward his motion today.

Earlier today the Minister of Municipal Affairs brought forward a statement which was just excellent and received an outstanding response from the Member for West Y ellowhead with respect to this very significant matter. Mr. Speaker, it was at midnight tonight, Alberta time, on May 5 of 1945 that the Nazi forces in Holland capitulated, surrendered, and Holland became a free c ountry. Over the next number of days in various parts of western Europe and various parts of eastern Europe victory over the Fascist regimes housed in both Germany and Italy and in other east European states came to an end.

That victory in Europe that's being commemorated this weekend and over the next number of days in a number of places, not only in Canada but in Europe as well, of course brought one part of the end of World War II to a conclusion. The other part would not come until August of 1945, when in fact there was victory in Asia. Mr. Speaker, I think it's really important, 50 years after the fact, for everyone to understand what that war was all about.

It was truly an extension of World War I, because despite the Treaty of Versailles in 1918 and the other treaties that were signed in 1918 and 1919, it did not put to an end, definitively, many of the scars and many of the difficulties. In 1939, when Nazi Germany decided to sign a nonaggression pact with the Soviet Union that then allowed the invasion of Poland to occur, which then tripled and quadrupled and allowed the whole series of dominoes to fall, invasions then emanating out of Nazi Germany and other parts of

1560 Alberta Hansard May 4, 1995 Europe would inflict upon the whole world a conflict that first began in Europe and then of course moved to Africa and then moved to Asia. Fortunately, the Americas were exempt from the war for the most part. There were some skirmishes, including submarines, German submarines in the Gulf of St. Lawrence in Canada, and other spotted events in the Americas, but truly we were exempt. But for the people who lived in Europe, they were not exempt. Mr. Speaker, the number of millions of people that were killed needlessly can never, ever, ever be forgotten. Mr.

Speaker, I was born in September of 1945. I have Polish blood in my veins, and I'm lucky – very, very lucky – because when the invasion of Poland occurred, it was done from the east and it was done from the west. One of the nations that invaded Poland subsequently was to become an ally of the Allies and in consort against the attack, against the Germans and the Nazis. Mr. Speaker, what the Member for Redwater has just said is very significant and very important. War begins when people lose respect for one another. War begins when people start to believe that some are better than other people.

When slogans are invented like Aryan superiority, they become an imaginary infatuation that goes beyond anything that the human spirit should be associated with. That war, from 1939 to 1945, was different than many other wars. Unfortunately, it was not different than wars that have been held since 1945 in some parts of the world, where there in fact continue to be pogroms against people, whether or not it's the events in Africa of the 1960s or even the events in Asia as recently as the 1980s, when certain groups of people said others should be eliminated and that there should be genocide.

But in Europe in that war, that World War II from 1939 to 1945, when a group of people decided that they were going to eliminate another group of people and eradicate them, nothing could be more evil and heinous and inhuman than that. Mr. Speaker, that toll of the 50-plus million people, who will never be more than souls now, was wrong, wrong, wrong. And if any human being in 1995 can stand and look at themselves in the mirror and say, "I am better than you because my skin is a certain colour, or my hair has a certain twine to it, or my religion is more important than yours," then we have learned nothing.

For the hundred thousand Canadians who lost their lives in defence of this country, not only in World War II but in other wars beginning with the Boer War, we as Canadians should never forget, despite the fact that we're a small country in terms of population, the contributions of these men and women by way of blood and sweat and death. Canadians are very salient people when it comes to talking about their heroes. We somehow have never believed that we've ever had any heroes in this country. We somehow believe that our history's been dull and boring.

But I'm sure that none of those people who contributed and got involved in any of these wars, World War II or any others, ever went there wanting to become a hero. They went there because they believed in principles of dignity and respect for one another. Many never returned and are in graveyards in Europe. Some were never found, Mr. Speaker, and their families can only believe that they were lost there. 3:20 Many went and came back as survivors, but they also came back with memories, and those memories are extremely impor- tant. We have to hear from them. We have to hear from them now.

And it's good enough not only on this particular weekend of 1995, Mr. Speaker; we have to continue to hear from them. They are heroes. There is no more dramatic a hero than the person who is prepared to give of himself or herself by way of their body, their blood, and their mind in the defence of freedom for someone else, and they truly are deserving of our respect.

What we've done in the Assembly today by way of the statements from the Minister of Municipal Affairs, the Member for West Y ellowhead, the Member for Redwater and the statements that so many members of this Assembly will give at events over the next number of days are important. We have to give respect. We must give respect. Some may even find it in their hearts to forgive what happened. None, however, can ever forget what happened. MRS. ABDURAHMAN: Mr. Speaker, this is a very important Standing Order 40 motion in the Assembly of Alberta.

Before I make my comments, I want to acknowledge the private member's statement by the Member for Barrhead-Westlock. Quite frankly, it brought goose bumps to my skin and tears to my eyes when he made that private member's statement. I commend him for it, and also the other colleagues that have spoken today about victory in Europe, the 50th anniversary. We cannot allow it to go past without acknowledging the valour of the men and women from Canada. I was 18 months old when war broke out in Europe. As a child I remember well those years. I remember the rationing.

I remember on our farm road the army trucks, the billycans. I remember well as if it were yesterday the two German prisoners of war, Werner and Willie, who worked on our farm. They were indeed our friends. I also remember the Ukrainians who became friends also of our family, because they were displaced after the war and actually worked on the farms in Scotland. I also remember well the sorrow when we saw the evacuees from London coming into Dumfriesshire, Scotland, away from their mothers or their grandparents for safety, the fact that they were removed from their families for safety.

Those are the things that as a child I remember about World War II. I'm not going to repeat, Mr. Speaker, some of the points that have been made by our colleagues, but the one thing that I do know since I've come to live in Canada is how vulnerable we all are as a society. The very things that the men and women fought for in World War II are indeed still at risk: peace, freedom, democracy, generosity, and tolerance. How quickly we forget to be tolerant of one another. Y ou know, it saddens me.

When we came to live in Breton, Alberta, I can remember well a greeting I had from an Albertan: "Oh, I couldn't possibly go to your husband. He's coloured." I can remember well the days in Fort Saskatchewan when my children came home in tears and had been called bloody Indians or Pakis. I can remember the day, not too long ago, my husband came home from the Fort Saskatchewan general hospital and told me that he was told: "Oh, you're not an immigrant. Y ou're a doctor." Now, why am I sharing that in this House?

I'm sharing it because, as the Member for Barrhead-Westlock said, we must never forget why World War II was fought, yet we're so quick to allow things like this to happen in our own communities. Quite frankly, Mr. Speaker, I'm concerned for our communities. I'm concerned for the social fabric of Alberta, because when people can feel comfortable in saying that to a Canadian – I may be a new Canadian – when they can say these things to my family, there's a level of comfort that they could get off with saying these things.

I just want to quote, because I think these two gentlemen can say it much better than ever the Member for Clover Bar-Fort

May 4, 1995 Alberta Hansard 1561 Saskatchewan. It's stated by J.L. Granatstein and Desmond Morton: Was it all worth it? Had Ca nada lost 47,000 lives and squandered thirteen billion dollars in vain? Had we fought one evil empire only to saddle much of Europe with another? Or had we fought only to restore corrupt capitalism? Such questions, not uncommon in university classrooms half a century after 1945, prove that some people never learn and others all too easily forget.

Revisionist "scholars" who argue that Adolf Hitler was a statesman, that the Holocaust never happened, that Winston Churchill's greatest error was his refusal to strike a deal with a triumphant Germany in the summer of 1940, exploit a freedom young Canadians died to protect. And they, Mr. Speaker, are dead wrong, because indeed the Second World War was a good war. It was for peace, freedom, democracy, generosity, and tolerance, and let everyone in Canada remember that. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Grande Prairie-Wapiti. MR. JACQUES: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

First of all, I want to thank the Member for Redwater for bringing this motion to us today and also to acknowledge the statements that have been made by so many members today in recognition of VE Day. Similar to my hon. colleague to the left, I have snapshots, impressions of VE Day and what led up to it. Indeed, at the time of VE Day I was approximately six and a half years old, residing in the city of Vancouver.

I remember those years of that time in those snapshots and the things that we talked about and the things that are there forever, such as the ration books, the blackout blinds, the testing of the air-raid sirens, and certainly the barrage balloons that littered the sky on the delta outside of the Vancouver area. I remember the talk around the family table, talk about war, talk about death. I heard the talk about the families that had lost members, including the fam ily that I belonged to.

I also remember that there were tears and there was laughter, but certainly the image of death, of destruction was always there. I also learned of a man who enrolled as a private in the army. He returned from overseas four and a half years later with the rank of an acting major, and I did not remember that man. He did remember me, because he was my father. As the years went by and I learned more and more about the Second World War, particularly the battles of Europe, I also learned and started to appreciate the sacrifice of so many men and women and indeed families who served our country in those years.

The death, the physical disability and indeed even mental disability was the price they paid, and they did it so we could ever be free of the tyranny of that day and so we could enjoy the privileges of democracy. We also learned that war was not glory, but we must never forget to glorify the sacrifice of the young men and women and their families. To us they gave the greatest sacrifice, and to them we give forever our gratitude, which I don't think we could ever express fully in the appropriate words. God bless them, Mr. Speaker. Thank you. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Centre. 3:30 MR.

HENRY: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to make a couple of brief comments about the motion, and I again thank the Member for Redwater for bringing it forward and the members who have spoken prior to me. I won't pretend to be as eloquent as some of the members before me, and I do want to acknowledge especially the members for Clover Bar-Fort Saskatchewan and Barrhead-Westlock and the Member for West Y ellowhead. Mr. Speaker, I don't have memories of the war, and I don't have memories of VE Day.

My memories are of my grandfather, who immigrated to this country at five years old in 1900 and who served in the army in World War I, and the unspoken fact that you didn't ask about the two fingers that were missing from one hand that he left in the trenches in World War I. In World War II my father served in the army, and my grandfather served in the home service. My grandfather never spoke of the war; my father spoke seldom of the war. I don't have strong memories of that war.

I grew up in an era where we believed all war was wrong, in the '60s and '70s when we didn't go to war, and that we should stop all war. Mr. Speaker, as we get older and we mature, we realize and we learn more about history. I had an experience recently that put it in perspective for me a little bit. I have an old friend, a longtime friend living in Edmonton who I bumped into recently, who showed me something. This friend is Mr. Harold Slutsky, and on VE Day in 1945 he was an ordinary seaman going home on leave from Halifax to Edmonton, where he lived then and continues to live.

He showed me something he'd saved from that period, and it's a copy of a News Bulletin Service produced by the Canadian Pacific Railway Company communications department. On that train, if I can read the four sentences into the record – it's morning train news; Chapleau, Ontario, May 7, 1945: Rheims, France. This is VE Day. The war in Europe is over. The Germans surrendered unconditionally to the Ameri- cans, British and Russians at 2:41 a.m. French time, 8:41 a.m. Eastern Daylight Time. The surrender took place at a little red school house used as a general headquarters by General Eisen- hower.

The German unconditional surrender for Germany was signed for Germany by Colonel-General Gustav Jodl. Jodl is new chief of staff of the German army. The unconditional surrender of the Germans was signed for the Supreme Allied Command by Lieutenant General Walter Bedell Smith, chief of staff for General Eisenhower. The surrender was accepted for the Russians by General Ivan Susoparoff and for the French by General Francois Sevez. That was the end of the News Bulletin Service. Mr. Slutsky has kept a copy of that for years in his apartment in downtown Edmonton. Mr.

Speaker, we all have responsibilities to our children and to future generations. I can't pass on memories of World War II and VE Day, but I can pass on what it was all about to my children. I can pass on the kinds of comments made by the Member for Barrhead-Westlock and other members in this Assembly about not only individual rights, the rights of each individual to be free, but also the responsibility of all of us to rise, when the occasion calls, to ensure that every individual has free rights. Mr.

Speaker, on the 50th anniversary of VE Day I will be participating in the ceremonies at city hall, as I have done the last few years. My pledge to the people who fought for me in that war is that I will never let my children forget. Thank you. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Calgary-Fish Creek. MRS. FORSYTH: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's a privilege for me to stand today and congratulate the member for bringing this forward.

1562 Alberta Hansard May 4, 1995 I'm standing today on behalf of my father, who isn't here anymore but fought in the war and was a prisoner in the war. He didn't talk a lot about his experiences when he was around. He felt that that was something he had to keep to himself. We had one occasion one time when he was visiting of him breaking down and explaining things to us: as a prisoner of war, all the pain that he went through. My son has chosen an army career, Mr. Speaker. We were at a Remembrance Day service, and I remember the tears that were on my father's face as my son walked by and saluted him.

I don't think that's something that I'll ever forget. Forty-five thousand Canadians were killed and thousands more were wounded as they fought for our freedom and our democracy, and that's something that I think we have to remember for the rest of our lives. To the people who fought for me, for my children, and for my freedom: God bless them. I had an interesting call this morning. It was from my son. He has continued to stay in the army. He spent three years with the cadets and has been with the reserve for two years. He phoned me and he said: Mom, I've been called up. He was really very excited.

He said: I have a chance in the next three to four weeks of going to Petawawa, and from there I'm going to go to Yugosla- via on peacekeeping. It really isn't a call a mother likes to hear when their child leaves the roost. But, Mr. Speaker, I admire him, and I'm proud of him for choosing something that he wants to do for his country. So for the people who have fought for us and who protected us, and to my Dad, who I know is listening somewhere: God bless. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Glenora. MR. SAPERS: Thank you, Mr Speaker.

It's been 50 years since the war came to an end in Europe, and I'm afraid that some of the memories are growing dim with the passage of time. I'd like to read a statement that was recently made to the Jewish community in this city as that community celebrated the ceremony and remembrance of Y om Hashoah. I'll read an introductory comment and then the proclamation. This year we are commemorating the 50th anniversary to the end of World War II, the victory of Allied Forces, the total collapse of Nazi Germany, and the liberation of the survivors of the death camps.

Fifty years ago, in January 1945, with the advance of the Soviet army and the Allied Forces, the Germans in their flight began the evacuation and the destruction of the biggest death camp, Auschwitz. Jewish inmates were removed and marched under merciless, horrendous conditions of brutality, deprivation, hunger, and extreme cold. On the death marches to Germany and Austria those who survived were gathered in special camps for displaced persons, and there Zionist activity flourished and eventually brought them to Israel.

The year 1995 has not witnessed a change in the climate of intolerance towards foreigners, which continues to prevail in Europe and carries with it ma nifestations of anti-Semitism. Violence against foreigners has been consistently accompanied by violent attacks such as the desecration of Jewish graveyards and vandalism against Holocaust memorials and concentration camps. Especially disturbing is the growing electoral success of political parties which declare extreme nationalist, antiforeigner, and anti-Semitic principles.

The far right in west Europe, in particular, is becoming part of the political establishment. Another disturbing phenomenon is the worldwide co-operation between neo-Nazi groups, especially in the dissemination of Holocaust denial material. Mr. Speaker, I'm saddened to observe that denial has found a dark spot of refuge here in Alberta, and we must not allow that to flourish. Racism, bigotry, and prejudice will kill a society. Communities can be eroded by evil, if we allow that to happen. Everything possible must be done to protect freedom and peace in a just and democratic society.

We in this Legislature must remember that we can play a lead role in that regard. The Y om Hashoah Proclamation was passed by the Knesset on April 12, 1951, the 27th day of Nisan. It proclaimed the Holocaust and ghetto uprising remembrance day, a day of perpetual remembrance for the House of Israel. This date was chosen because it falls between that of the Warsaw ghetto uprising, which began on the first day of Passover, and the Israel war of independence remembrance day.

The Holocaust and heroism remembrance law of Y ad Vashem determined that one of the tasks of the Y ad Vashem Authority is to inculcate in Israel and its people awareness of the day set aside by the Knesset as the Holocaust and heroism remembrance day. Mr. Speaker, today I stand and speak in remembrance of ancestors which I was cheated out of ever getting to know. And on behalf of generations to come, I say: never again. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Lesser Slave Lake. 3:40 MS CALAHASEN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Veterans across this province will commemorate the 50th anniversary of the end of the Second World War in Europe. Members from both of the caucuses have certainly expressed so well some of the things that have occurred and the valour of the men who have gone across the ocean. Although I am not quite the fine age – quite – of the Member for West Y ellowhead to have felt it firsthand, I believe all of us have certainly felt the impact of war and its effects via our family members. I personally have had many members of my family who went to war: uncles, great-uncles, cousins. Some came back; others did not.

It is in this vein that I want to pay a very special tribute to a forgotten group of veterans: aboriginal Canadians. Hundreds and hundreds of aboriginal Canadians – to be exact, Mr. Speaker, about 3,000 from a total population of 125,000 in Canada – served in all branches of the military in every area of war. During both wars the enlistment of treaty Indians and Metis was encouraged by the government. They responded in numbers far greater than their treatment merited. In the battles they fought exceptionally well. They were natural-born runners and scouts and excellent marksmen. At war they were treated the same.

Colour was insignificant. They fought side by side with other Canadian men, and they cried side by side with other Canadian men in the trenches. They went hungry together in those trenches. But when they came back to Canada, they did not share to the same extent in the material benefits of society. These Canadians gave up a lot. They gave up their treaty Indian status to fight for a country, a country which at that time did not extend the full rights of Canadian citizenship, including the right to vote and be represented in government by their own people. All that, Mr.

Speaker, was something they had to live with, but they were so very proud. They were very proud of the fact they were Canadian and very proud that they fought for freedom. We speak of equality, but we still don't even have equality in Canada. We do not even have equa lity for those veterans. They still have to fight with the Canadian government to even be recognized, and they still do not get the kind of recognition they deserve.

May 4, 1995 Alberta Hansard 1563 We are still dealing with that reality today, Mr. Speaker. We speak of things that we say should be happening. We fight to be able to bring peace to the world, but we still have a lot to do in Canada. I believe that these veterans should also be recognized for all their valour and that they fought to make sure that we as Canadians can experience a free country. Mr. Speaker, for the first time they were recognized for what they had contributed in the world wars, and that occurred in a little community called Gift Lake on July 30, 1994.

For the first time the Canadian government allowed the Canadian armed forces to allow people to be recognized for what they fought for in the First and Second World Wars. Mr. Speaker, this is a tough one, because we all speak of peace in the world, we all speak of peace in Canada, we all speak of things that are so dear to our heart, but we still have not reached equality. I believe that these veterans should also r eceive the same gratitude and the same recognition that all veterans in Canada and the world deserve. So, Mr.

Speaker, it is my great honour to extend to all the aboriginal veterans and to all veterans a heartfelt thanks for making sure that we have a country that's safe and is so wonder- ful and that we have peace. I know it's not very much to say today for them, but I want to say thank you for making sure that my child can continue to live in a great country. Thank you. MR. MITCHELL: Mr. Speaker, I too would like to spend a few moments recognizing the 50th anniversary of VE Day.

Although I wasn't alive during that war nor was I alive on VE Day, I am struck by how profoundly important that day and what it meant is for me and for my generation. I am a member of perhaps one of the most privileged generations that has ever lived. We have benefited from so many things. In fact, we have benefited in particular from the freedoms that were achieved, sustained, fought for by veterans who fought throughout that war, who suffered, who died on behalf of all of us. I have had that feeling through- out my life.

I think it's important that we recognize a day like VE Day to assist us in never forgetting that feeling. It is for me a tremendous feeling of gratitude and of humility. This day is also of particular importance to me at a very personal level. My father, Bill Mitchell, f ought in the Second World War. He joined the Black Watch in Montreal in 1939. He fought on various fronts, in various theatres of the war throughout that six-year war. He was awarded a field commission. He trained in Vernon, B.C., and met my mother there.

In order to re-enter a war that he felt it was extremely important he contrib- ute to and to fight for what was so important in that fight, he volunteered to be a Canloan officer to the British Black Watch. The British Black Watch had lost so many officers that they needed officers, and he volunteered into a very, very obviously dangerous situation to pursue what he felt was extremely impor- tant to pursue. He was wounded in the Black Forest. He was decorated with the Military Cross. He was awarded that Military Cross in a special award recognition ceremony by Field Marshal Montgomery.

He stayed on after the war was over, returned to the military service after two years, and remained a career army officer. Throughout that period of time he spent, among other things, a year and a half in Korea on peacekeeping forces. He also spent a year in Vietnam with the Canadian forces on a peacekeeping mission that is little known and little recognized but was ex- tremely important in demonstrating Canadians' commitment to peace around the world. My father's contribution and his life as he conducted it have been extremely important in fashioning and in developing me.

I have lived with the image of a man who contributed in a way that so many people contributed on behalf of Canada but contributed at a particularly difficult time, a very, very demanding time. I am influenced by a man, my father, who saw that there was some- thing far greater than him that had to be fought for, and he literally risked his life to do that. He is not the only member of my family who contributed in that way. Both my grandfathers fought in the First World War. My mother-in-law, Evelyn Flood, was a nurse in Britain during the Second World War.

My father-in-law, Charles Flood, fought and was involved in the Canadian forces in the Second World War in Europe as well. 3:50 Today I would like to recognize all of the veterans who have fought to defend our rights and freedoms and to protect others across the world at great personal sacrifice. I would particularly like to recognize and thank the members of my family who have done that and my father in particular. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Three Hills-Airdrie. MS HALEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It's indeed a privilege to rise in this House today and participate in this discussion to recognize the anniversary of VE Day. While I can't claim to have lived through the war or even VE Day, I am hoping that age is not a prerequisite to understanding. I've grown up with a fascination of history and have read and studied extensively to gain a better understanding of what occurred and why. The very fact that we are here today in this building as elected representa- tives in a free and democratic country speaks for the success of the outcome of that war.

We are free to debate issues, vigorously at times, and have no fear that we could be arrested for our comments or just simply disappear from view, sometimes forever and sometimes without trace. We tend to lose sight of what we have here in Alberta probably because bombs have never dr opped here, but I've had the opportunity to travel through East Germany and East Berlin and through Czechoslovakia and various other countries that were involved in the Second World War on a very intimate basis, where walls were built to keep people in.

I can guarantee you that people over there have not forgotten because they are constantly reminded. There are still piles of rubble in places in East Germany. Wars continue to plague our planet even at this time, and it's a world that we share with all of them. More people have died since the end of World War II than died in World War II because of wars and conflicts in places like Korea, Vietnam, Cam bodia. Yugoslavia again is embroiled in it. We still have people living in this world under oppressive governments.

While I'm honoured to give thanks and deep respect to those who fought and died for us, I would like to remind all Albertans that we do live in privilege. We must never lose sight of what we have but, more importantly, never lose sight that all people around the world are still struggling for the very freedoms that we enjoy here. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Leduc. MR. KIRKLAND: Thanks, Mr. Speaker. I thank the Member for Redwater for bringing the motion forth.

I'm honoured of course to have the opportunity to acknowledge and recognize the 50th anniversary of the victory, and I'm pleased to join the members here today that have given some very poignant and

1564 Alberta Hansard May 4, 1995 moving and emotional testimonies and tributes to those that endured such pain and such sacrifice, separation from their families, horror as they went into war. I am the son of a veteran that was wounded liberating Holland, so my memories really are derived from the mementos and scrapbook that originated while he was in the process of liberating it. Though that scrapbook prompted many questions on my behalf, I always felt somewhat deprived because of my father's reluctance to share those experiences that he had overseas.

But as I grew older, I grew to realize that those were not fond memories. They were more often than not dark days and days of horror, as most people that have studied war realize. So I would acknowledge him and all the other veterans that in fact have endured and sacrificed so much to ensure that we enjoy the liberty and the passion and the freedom in Canada that we have. I would suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that if all Canadians exhibited and spoke with the emotion and the heart that the members here today have spoken with in regards to providing testimony to those great men and women that served this country, we would go a long way to having one of the truly finest countries in this entire world. MR. DA Y: Mr. Speaker, I think it's significant today that the entire business of the Legislature come to a halt to acknowledge and remember. Y et maybe it isn't really coming to a halt. Maybe this is, in fact, a continuation of the business of the Legislature, which is to remember.

As we've heard and as we could find out quickly by surveying Canadians or in fact citizens of the world everywhere, there would not be found a family who has not been touched by war in general and certainly by the Second World War and the ensuing victory in Europe. I know that I often find myself torn on the question of war and peace, and it's probably due to my ancestry. On my mother's side of the family, going back a few hundred years to the days of the United Empire Loyalists, they had an opportunity to fight against taxation when they lived in what was then the colonies.

They chose not to, and they moved northward to inhabit the eastern part of Canada. My father's side of the family chose to stay and fight a tyrannical government, as a matter of fact. Then at the turn of the century my father's side of the family moved north also. My father's side, the warring faction, I guess you could say, marrying my mother's side, the peace and loyalist faction, probably resulted in some of the tearing and turmoil that I sense in my own heart at times like this.

There's no question as I consider the fact that that grandfather, my father's father, who moved up from Boston at the turn of the century, went on to enlist and fight for Canada, as a Canadian by that time, and then was wounded by shrapnel and lost the ability to operate his legs, was one of the first returning veterans who was equipped with a car that could be controlled without the use of legs. It was somewhat obviously sad and ironic that he died operating that vehicle, in a vehicle accident.

Then when I reflect to the Second World War, the other grandfather, that I never knew, on my mother's side, long having abandoned the United Empire Loyalist faction of not fighting, in fact was the subject of considerable torture in a prisoner-of-war camp. The great celebration when it was announced that the war was ended was somewhat diminished in my mother's family by the reality of my grandfather coming home, having to go immedi- ately into a hospital, and dying there as a result of that treatment.

Then understanding that my father at a young age, as we've heard about other fathers here, enlisted, interrupted his career and university, and fought in the north Atlantic. We hear a lot about fathers and the sacrifices made. There are many untold stories of mothers who, especially at that time it not being traditional maybe for mothers, the majority, to be working, left their homes every day to work in factories. That must have been equally a trying time for so many of them. So the mothers and the fathers that are represented here by us their children need that recognition.

There's been reference made today to the Jewish community and the horrible suffering which they underwent. There is however no community, we recognize, that was spared that suffering, especially if you consider the Ukrainian population through the '30s suffering losses of some 5 million to 6 million people, murdered and starved in a different type of war. We say to ourselves and I know our kids say and mine have asked me: "Why do people fight? Why do we have these wars? We know how terrible they are." There are times, unfortunately, when we have to fight.

We hope that we won't see those times, but the possibilities are there. With reference to the Jewish community, I would reflect what I believe is a partial answer. It comes from the Hebrew tradi- tions, as a matter of fact, what we call the Old Testament. The Hebrew writings talk about a time when a Hebrew leader was talking to the children of Israel and saying, "Y ou're about to enter a new era where, if you want, there will be no war." He gave a prescription then of how to have nations without war. It was actually a fairly simple one.

It was saying that if you follow God's ways and His principles of love and unselfishness and tolerance – we've heard that mentioned here today – there's an ironclad guarantee that in fact nations will enjoy peace. If you don't follow these principles, then nations will not enjoy peace. 4:00 The interesting thing there is that those comments were not directed towards a government or a political structure or a certain party but in fact to us as individuals. We're challenged then, I believe.

Whether we're talking about the God of the Jews or the God of the Christians, these universal principles are found in the mainline religions of the world, these principles of love and respect and unselfishness.

Whereas I may ascribe to and believe in certain things, I as a legislator cannot impose my beliefs, my personal beliefs, my religious beliefs on people who elect me. I cannot impose, but I certainly can propose that following the ways of God, if I can use that expr ession, will bring peace, first, internally. Therefore, if I have peace internally and we as a province and a nation have that kind of collective peace, the chances that we will be at war and that nations will be at war is considerably limited.

That's reflected so clearly in the writings of the brother of the person who's referred to as the Prince of Peace, who some 2,000 years ago was asked the question: why have we got these wars? In those writings he said that where you have jealousy and envy, you will have disorder and every evil thing.

As I listened to the comments today and the terrible, terrible sacrifices that people have undergone, I'm challenged anew, I guess I could say, to do what I can internally to recognize that a loving God has laid out a way for me to have peace and collec- tively for all of us to have peace in an area that we can't legislate, and that's the area of the heart. We could ask the question: "What difference would that make, each of us individually searching for peace and establishing peace in our own hearts?

What difference could it make on an individ- ual basis?" I'm reminded that the small things that we do day to day can promote peace in our own hearts and among our neigh- bours. I'm reminded of the story – I don't know if it's true, Mr. Speaker – of an elderly gentleman on the west coast. Quite a

May 4, 1995 Alberta Hansard 1565 severe storm had washed up thousands and thousands of starfish out of the sea, and now as the tide was receding, the sunlight in only a few minutes would bring about the death of those starfish. He was walking along, slowly stooping over, being somewhat aged and probably arthritic, and tossing these starfish back into the water. A couple walking along the shore said, "What are you doing?" He explained what he was doing, and they said: "But, you know, there are thousands of starfish there, and you're throwing them back one at time. The sea is receding so quickly.

What difference can you as one individual make to those star- fish?" As he picked up one more and flung it into the water, he smiled and looked at them and said, "Well, it'll make a difference to that one." I think that's what has hit me today as I've listened to members sharing: I have to be challenged in my own heart, individually, to allow the ways and the principles of God to bring peace into my heart so that I can bring peace to the people around me, and maybe all of us doing that together, collectively, can promote peace.

As we celebrate VE Day , we can say: God, help us to avoid the type of tragedy that has led us to this celebration today. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Edmonton-Meadowlark. MS LEIBOVICI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was lucky: I was born after the war; I was born in Canada. My parents were also lucky. They left Europe after the war with only their memories of the war. There are 20 million people, however, that were not lucky, 6 million of them who were Jewish. It's been 50 years since VE Day, and some people's memories grow dim.

We must keep the specter of World War II in front of us, because it could happen again. Right now, as we speak in this Legislative Assembly, there are people around this world who are dying. Right now perhaps there's a child that's being shot because it's not the right colour. Right now the militia in the United States are doing manoeuvres against a conspiracy. Right now on the Internet there's hate mail. Right now there are the Aryan Nations who wish to infiltrate Alberta. Right now there are neo-Nazis who are joining all the time. There are people who believe that they are better than others.

There are others who believe that their problems are because of someone else, because of some conspiracy, a conspiracy that exists only in their minds. We say in our privileged world that we live in that we must remember those that died, that we must be vigilant, that it cannot and will not happen again. Y et as legislators I'm not sure that we always measure our actions, our words against these goals. Legislators is this country and in this province in the past have put certain institutions in place, and the goals of those institutions are to help ensure that discrimination would not persist.

They are institutions such as this Legislative Assembly, such as the Human Rights Commissions, such as the women's advisory councils. We say that we remember, but I feel that as legislators we must do more than remember. We have a responsibility to be vigilant to guarantee that our actions and words ensure that discrimination, prejudice, and persecution will never happen again. We cannot let the efforts of those who suffered and perished, who died in the war, be for naught. Thank you. THE SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Whitecourt-Ste. Anne. MR. TRYNCHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It's indeed a prou