March 30, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 233 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF ALBERTA Title: Friday, March 30, 1984 10:00 a.m. [The House met at 10 a.m.] PRAYERS [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] head: INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 30 Queen's Counsel Amendment Act, 1984 MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to introduce Bill No. 30, the Queen's Counsel Amendment Act.

Notwithstanding the statutory rule of 10 years of active practice in the legal profession, this Bill would provide that persons might be appointed as Queen's Counsel if they are a Member of Parliament or of the Legislative Assembly, a bencher of the Law Society, or the Deputy Attorney General. [Leave granted; Bill 30 read a first time] Bill 23 Hospitals and Medical Care Statutes Amendment Act, 1984 MR. RUSSELL: Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to introduce a Bill, being the Hospitals and Medical Care Statutes Amendment Act, 1984.

The purpose of this Bill is to amend two Acts, the Alberta Hospitals Act and the Alberta Provincial General Hospitals Act, providing for the same amendment in both those Acts, making a minor change to the conditions of the hospital foundations, which we passed in legislation during our previous fall session. [Leave granted; Bill 23 read a first time] Bill 249 Government Employees Incentive Act MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, I wish to introduce Bill 249, the Government Employees Incentive Act.

This Act is designed to reward government employees for measures that save money, by giving the employee 25 percent of the savings, to a maximum of $5,000. There are also safe­ guards in the Bill, Mr. Speaker, to prevent artificial savings such as a reduction in service to the public or transfers of responsibility to other departments. This Bill will allow government employees to save money for the public. Certainly that is their responsibility on an ongo­ ing basis, but incentives have encouraged this to happen in other governments.

It has been tried in a number of states in the United States and has worked very effectively. In a time of saving money in Alberta, it would work well here. [Leave granted; Bill 249 read a first time] head: TABLING RETURNS AND REPORTS MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table with the Assembly the annual report of the Alberta Petroleum Incentives Program Fund. I would also like to file with the Assembly the response to Motion for a Return No. 138. DR. WEBBER: Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to table the annual report of the Department of Social Services and Community Health for the fiscal year ended March 31, 1983, and the Vital Statistics annual review for the calendar year 1982. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS MR. HORSMAN: Mr. Speaker, this morning I would like to introduce to you and through you three distinguished visitors from the People's Republic of China, seated in your gallery. They are all professors of law who are participating in a study tour of legal institutions in Germany, Canada, and the United States.

Given Alberta's important interest in China and our desire to co-operate with that country across a variety of sectors, we are extremely pleased that Alberta was chosen as one of the Canadian provinces to be visited. These gentlemen have already visited Quebec and will be visiting British Columbia after their stay in Alberta. I am pleased to introduce these visitors to you: Mr. Wang Tieya, professor of international law and director of the Institute of International Law at Beijing University; Mr. Chen An, asso­ ciate professor of international law at Xiamen; and Mr.

Liu Honghui, associate professor of law at the Southwest Institute of Politics and Law. We are honoured to have them here today. Please join me in extending a warm welcome to these distin­ guished visitors. MRS. LeMESSURIER: Mr. Speaker, I have the privilege today to introduce to you, and through you to the members of this Assembly, 18 students from the Alberta Vocational Centre. Accompanied by Janna Kacur, they are seated in the members gallery. I ask that they rise and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. MR. ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, on behalf of my colleague the hon.

Associate Minister of Public Lands and Wildlife, it is my pleasure today to introduce to you and to Members of the Legislative Assembly a group of 45 grade 8 students from the Clear Vista school in the Wetaskiwin-Leduc constituency. They are accompanied by Lois Russell, and they are located in the members gallery. I ask that they please rise and receive the welcome of the Assembly. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Lubicon Lake Land Claim MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct my first question to the hon.

Minister responsible for Native Affairs and ask whether the government of Alberta has had an oppor­ tunity to evaluate the very serious allegations contained in the October 23 letter by the World Council of Churches in Geneva, Switzerland, to the Prime Minister of Canada, concerning the practices of certain government of Alberta officials with respect to the Lubicon Lake Band. More particularly, could the minister advise the Assembly whether he has had an opportunity to personally review the allegations that during the land tenure

234 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1984 program, people who could not read or write were misinformed about the nature of the program and in fact had threats that their homes would be bulldozed if they did not take out the application for the two-acre lots? MR. PAHL: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have had an opportunity to read the letter put forward by the World Council of Churches. I guess I would respond by saying that it appeared to address the circumstances surrounding the injunction with respect to oil and gas development that was before the courts.

I believe that Justice Forsyth's judgment, rendered late last year, would have best responded to that. With respect to the second question, regarding allegations that the land tenure program was conducted under the circum­ stances the hon. Leader of the Official Opposition has detailed, no I haven't. Those have not been brought to my attention. However, I would like to remark that having set the addressing of land claims as a personal priority, I mentioned the Lubicon Band land claim to the federal minister when I first met with him in January 1983.

I would also indicate that I met with an agent of the Lubicon Band last November, I believe, and made considerable effort to contact Chief Ominayak, both personally and through my staff. I have not yet been successful in inter­ esting Chief Ominayak in contacting me, but perhaps I will be more successful, given the increased interest in the claim in the past few weeks. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

In light of the fact that the minister apparently has had an oppor­ tunity to review the letter to the Prime Minister, is he saying to the House that he has not had an opportunity to review and personally investigate the allegations in this letter with respect to the way in which provincial officials performed their duties — or misperformed their duties would be a better way of putting it. MR. PAHL: Mr. Speaker, I guess I have to first search my memory. I think the letter referred to was addressed to the Prime Minister and, in that respect, I assumed the Prime Min­ ister would respond to it.

I have had no direct correspondence in that regard and, inasmuch as the injunctions are before the courts, I really didn't see what purpose I would serve in review­ ing it in the manner the hon. Leader of the Official Opposition is suggesting. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. One can hardly expect the Prime Minister to investigate provincial public employees. The question has nothing to do with the issue that is before the courts.

The question is whether or not this minister in this government is going to investigate alle­ gations by the World Council of Churches that provincial employees misled members of the Lubicon Band. MR. PAHL: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I have not been focussing on the intent of the hon. member's question.

If he had asked me whether the provincial government is concerned about the land tenure program, its ability to meet the objectives and intentions of both the Alberta government and the mainly native people of Alberta who were without title to their lands, I could answer the hon. gentleman by saying yes, we have the land tenure program under review and will continue to have it under review. I might add that part of that process is a series of workshops throughout the province that the native affairs sec­ retariat is conducting in co-operation with the Metis Association of Alberta.

So in response to the question as I think I have it redirected, I can answer yes. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Per­ haps I can redirect the question in a little more refined way, so the minister has a direct question. During the course of the minister's responsibilities, is it the position of the government of Alberta that it is acceptable for employees of the government in the land tenure program to tell people that their homes "would be bulldozed if they didn't lease the lots or accept them as gifts from the Provincial Government"? I'm reading from the World Council of Churches' letter.

Is that the policy of this government? MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, as the minister responsible for the land tenure program, I would like to assure the Leader of the Opposition that that is of course not the position of the provincial government or of its employees. The allegations are serious. I will investigate them and report. If the Leader of the Opposition would like to share with me any additional infor­ mation that would substantiate those charges, I would very much appreciate that information, as it would assist me in my investigation. [some applause] MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

I'm glad there's that enthusiasm, in view of the fact that the minister has apparently had this letter for some . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. NOTLEY: The question to the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs is whether or not the government of Alberta would be prepared to refer the contents of the World Council of Churches' letter to the provincial Ombudsman and ask him to do an inves­ tigation. MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, the responsibilities and powers of the provincial Ombudsman are there without reference from a minister or an MLA. The Ombudsman acts on complaints that are made by citizens of the province.

If citizens of the province have a complaint, they should direct it to the Ombuds­ man. We've always encouraged the Ombudsman to review matters of this nature. Of course, as the minister responsible for that particular program, I will review those charges as well. As I indicated in my earlier remarks, if the hon. gentleman has additional information which would substantiate those charges, I would appreciate if you would share those with me, so they would assist me in my investigation. MR. NOTLEY: A supplementary question. I would urge the Minister of Municipal Affairs to contact his colleague.

In any event, assuming that the hon. minister has not obtained this information, I will send it over to him. The Official Opposition is always pleased to accommodate this government in trying to pursue their responsibilities. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs whether he's in a position to inform the House of the response from the people in the Lubicon Lake area to provincial taxation measures directed at the native people in that area. MR. KOZIAK: Mr.

Speaker, there are no taxation measures directed in any different fashion to people of the province than to people of the province as a whole. MR. NOTLEY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Given the dispute over the land claim, what is the government's policy

March 30, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 235 with respect to legally proceeding against native people for nonpayment of taxes? I believe the minister has a letter, cor­ respondence from the chief, indicating that the minister and his assessors could, basically, jump in the Lubicon Lake. What is the position of the government of Alberta on this matter, given the controversy over the land claim and the aboriginal rights question? MR. KOZIAK: Mr. Speaker, the land tenure program was developed in order provide people in the green zone of the province an opportunity to obtain title.

Title bears with it the responsibilities that all title holders in this province have, including the payment of taxes. I'm sure that the Leader of the Opposition does not suggest that, contrary to the Alberta Bill of Rights, we should tax certain people and not other people, based on their origin. MR. SPEAKER: Might this be the final supplementary on this topic. MR. NOTLEY: What I am suggesting is that we abandon that particular program. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask my final supplementary question to the hon. Provincial Treasurer.

Given the attention the Lubi­ con Lake question has been given by the World Council of Churches — international interest — would the government of Alberta be prepared to set aside and put in trust the disputed resource royalties in the traditional areas of the Lubicon Lake Band until such time as the claim is satisfactorily handled? MR. HYNDMAN: I refer the question to the minister of Native Affairs, Mr. Speaker. MR. PAHL: Mr.

Speaker, as I indicated in the House earlier, I believe on March 22, we had hoped to have a more substantive response from the federal government with respect to the nature of a validated land claim. Of course, that could happen very quickly. When that happens, we as a provincial government would be in a position to meet our obligations with respect to the 1930 Natural Resources Transfer Agreement. I would then be discussing the fullness of that response with various col­ leagues who have responsibilities for the administration of lands and the administration of mines and minerals. MR.

NOTLEY: I would like to direct my second question to the hon. Minister responsible for Native Affairs and ask what discussions he has had with his colleagues the Associate Min­ ister of Public Lands and Wildlife and the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources, concerning mineral development in the Lubicon Lake area. MR. SPEAKER: I'm sure that if the hon. Leader of the Oppo­ sition will reflect for a moment, he is inquiring about intra- cabinet communications. If he does so reflect, I'm sure it will be apparent to him that those are not a topic for the question period. MR. NOTLEY: Mr.

Speaker, then perhaps we can rephrase the question. I certainly wouldn't want the question not to be totally in order. Could the minister advise the Assembly what specific policies are in place to ensure that provincial oil devel­ opment in the Lubicon Lake area does not disrupt traditional hunting and fishing? MR. PAHL: Mr. Speaker, I think I should invite my colleague the associate minister, if he's here . . . MR. NOTLEY: You're on, Milt. MR. PAHL: I get the whole thing? Okay. I might invite the acting minister to respond, if he so desires.

I would indicate to the hon. member and to the House that there is a continuing matter of competing — or, in some cases, conflicting — resource uses throughout the province. The same accommodation occurs in the Lubicon band area as in other locations throughout the province, where in one case you have the owner of the subsurface rights, or the lessee, and a registered trapline or a timber hauling permit. There is an accommodation between these two. We have a trappers' compensation board, which responds to traditional uses and conflicts.

The Lubicon Lake area would be no different in that regard from any part of the province where we have competing resource users exer­ cising their rights and finding some overlap or conflict in their activities. MRS. OSTERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I'll take as notice the portion of the question that was directed to the hon. Minister respon­ sible for Public Lands and Wildlife. MR. SPEAKER: Might I ask whether the hon. Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs might revert to intro­ duction of visitors for just a moment? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS (reversion) MR. HORSMAN: Mr.

Speaker, in introducing our distin­ guished guests from China, I failed to mention to members of the Assembly that they are accompanied today by Dean Frank Jones, from the University of Alberta. I'd like to ask him to stand and be recognized. head: ORAL QUESTION PERIOD (continued) Oil Industry Incentives MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Energy and Natural Resources and is with regard to some reported abuses in the petroleum incentive payment program. I was wondering if the minister could indicate at what stage those investigations are at the present time, and are they com­ plete? MR.

ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, there have been some reports circulated in the media, and some comments within industry, with respect to the petroleum incentive payment program. I can advise the Assembly that the audit work that has been occurring through the Alberta petroleum incentive payment program has disclosed, to this point in time, no fraud whatsoever. MR. R. SPEAKER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. Could the minister indicate whether some changes in terms of regulations have been made because of the investigation, or were the regulations in place adequate enough to monitor the incoming submissions? MR.

ZAOZIRNY: Mr. Speaker, back in about December, by way of regulatory procedure, some adjustments were made in

236 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1984 respect of the petroleum incentive payment program and our geophysical incentive program, really for clarification. Those changes were put in place and were well received by industry. There has been no fraud disclosed to date. Hog Marketing MR. FISCHER: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Agriculture, concerning our hog marketing system. Last week the minister advised that the department was working on a new approach with the hog board selling system. Has this been completed? MR. FJORDBOTTEN: Mr.

Speaker, during the course of this week, ongoing discussions have taken place between my office and the chairman of the hog producers' marketing board. That's following up on their request of March 23, in which they requested that I place an independent third party to handle the bids in the selling system. The difficulty we've had this past week is trying to assess exactly what role that agent should play. As of this morning, I had a conversation with the chairman of the hog producers' marketing board, Mr. Dave Felstad. We agreed over the telephone, and the documents are now at the hog board office to be signed.

MR. FISCHER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. What moni­ toring is the government doing to ensure that all buyers, both local and export, have equal access to the supply? MR. FJORDBOTTEN: Mr. Speaker, under my responsibility to the hog marketing council, that monitoring has been taking place. The hog producers' marketing board has a responsibility to get the best return they can for the producers, and that is the right role they should fill. If the packers within the province wish to have access to those hogs, they will have to pay a competitive price. MRS. CRIPPS: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Considering that the hog kills on Monday and Tuesday are more readily salable, has the government had discussions with the hog board to even out the flow of hogs during the week? MR. FJORDBOTTEN: Mr. Speaker, we have had some dis­ cussion, but that is of course beyond the control of the hog producers' marketing board. According to my information, sig­ nificant hogs come in at the beginning of the week and the producers don't deliver as many hogs at the end of the week.

There has been discussion about that, but that's beyond the control of the hog producers' marketing board and is the respon­ sibility of the producers. MRS. CRIPPS: In this regard, has the minister had discussions with Gainers regarding their serious concern about underutiliza- tion of their more or less 130 killing-line workers at the begin­ ning of the week? MR. FJORDBOTTEN: Mr. Speaker, not specifically with respect to that.

They have had some concern about the flow of hogs through their plant and getting access to that steady supply of hogs, but they know full well that they would have to pay a competitive price to get those hogs. My information is that Gainers has received significant hogs over the past two-week period, so I don't feel there will be further discussions with respect to that particular issue. MRS. CRIPPS: Did I understand the minister to say "over the past two-week period"? Is that a reflection of your department and the hog board trying to even out the flow to the various packers? MR. FJORDBOTTEN: Mr.

Speaker, we haven't been working to even out the flow. My information is that the purchases by Gainers have been up significantly, and that has been based strictly on their having paid more for hogs than the other plants have. Native Economic Development Program MR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to address my question to the Minister responsible for Native Affairs. Is the minister aware of the existence of the federal native economic devel­ opment program? If he is, could he comment on some of the components of that program? MR. SPEAKER: I wonder — just for a moment, I thought I was in the House of Commons. MR.

PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, it's my knowledge that this program is in existence, and I'm not totally aware of the pro­ gram. What I'm asking the minister is, if possible, to somewhat describe this program for Albertans of native origin. MR. SPEAKER: Surely information for a member of this House concerning a federal program should be sought from some source that has official responsibility for the federal program. DR. BUCK: Ask your brother. MR.

SPEAKER: With great respect to the hon. member, as I think I have mentioned on a number of occasions, we shouldn't really be taking up the time of 75 members to engage in a research operation in the question period. MR. PAPROSKI: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I can rephrase the question. If the minister is aware of this program, does he plan to take advantage of what I understand is a large sum of money, on behalf of Alberta's native people? MR. PAHL: Mr. Speaker, I can only observe that when it rains, it pours.

I hope that on behalf of the native people of Alberta, I can get a little bit of that federal money pouring into here. When I heard of the fund, I contacted the federal minister responsible. We have within the province a number of economic development programs that I was very anxious to have com­ plemented by the federal initiatives — and not reinventing the wheel, Mr. Speaker. So I have made contact with the first minister responsible and the second minister responsible. I met with the federal minister in Ottawa in November, I believe.

My officials have met with the board of the federal organization, with the hope that we can complement the programs. MR. PAPROSKI: Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Is the minister aware if this fund is to be allocated to provinces through a specific formula? Will there be X number of dollars per native individual in each province? Does the minister have information in that area? MR. SPEAKER: With great respect, unless special information outside the public knowledge is contained in the program, I would have difficulty differentiating this question from the first one that was asked in this series.

But if the minister does have some special information which is not of public knowledge,

March 30, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 237 then that would of course be an appropriate topic for the ques­ tion period. MR. PAHL: Mr. Speaker, I have to admit to not having any special knowledge . . . MR. NOTLEY: No question about that. MR. PAHL: Please don't be so quick to agree. I would express a concern that the programs be made avail­ able to native Albertans, particularly the Metis people, who I understand have not to this point presented applications to the program in the numbers that were hoped for by the sponsors. Red Meat Stabilization MR. MUSGROVE: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Agriculture.

I wonder if he could bring us up to date on where we're at with the red meat stabilization program. MR. FJORDBOTTEN: Mr. Speaker, no final decisions have been made with respect to that. One of the unknowns at this point is whether or not the federal government will put forward this spring the enabling legislation to allow the red meat sta­ bilization program to come into being. If that legislation is not forthcoming, that would preclude a national red meat stabili­ zation program. So that is one of the specific unknowns.

With the cattle sector, discussions are now ongoing between the Cattle Commission executive and their zone directors, to assess the acceptability of the program. To date the information I have is that it would be acceptable. So we are ready basically to move forward within this province. But as I stated clearly, the unknown is the federal legislation. LRT Funding MR. SHRAKE: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Transportation. It's a further question regarding the proposed extensions of LRT in Calgary and in Edmonton — especially Calgary, where the Olympics are coming up in 1988.

In view of the fact that the six-year transportation plan in the province is ending this year, is the minister prepared to consider nego­ tiations with the city for a further six years, or possibly even a further period, so that they are ensured a period of continued transportation cost, with a view to letting them decide how they'll spend their money if they propose to use this for LRT? MR. M. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, we're prepared to consider any representations that might be made by the city of Calgary or by any other urban municipality, relative to extending the existing six-year program.

As I said yesterday, the program ends at the end of fiscal year 1984-85. Over the course of the next few months, we will be considering what, if any, extension might be applied to it or whether or not we'll have a new program. But I could add that no decision at all has been made at this time. It could well be that the program will expire, as did the towns and villages program, without any continuation. MR. SHRAKE: One little supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

If our revenue, our resources of the province do take an upturn, which we all hope they will, would just a little bit of extra funding for the city of Calgary be possible? MR. M. MOORE: Mr. Speaker, I believe I said yesterday that in reviewing the transportation requirements for the '88 Olym­ pics, we identified a number of areas where additional trans­ portation infrastructure is required. Thus far, we've not been able to identify any requirement for additional LRT funding connected with the Olympics. Moving Violation Fines MR. LEE: Mr. Speaker, my question to the hon.

Solicitor General is with respect to concerns raised by the Calgary Police Commission concerning the low level of fines for moving traffic violations in this province. Has the minister given any con­ sideration to amending legislation in order to permit muni­ cipalities to raise fines for moving violations, given that they really have not been altered in the past decade? DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, there are several items involved in the member's question. Since February 1 I've been considering many things, and among those items is the matter raised by the hon. member.

Over the next number of months, the Minister of Transportation and I are anticipating reviewing the two Acts we are responsible for that involve highway safety and penalties for breaking the laws, and the regulations that go with those. But further to the member's question, among the information I have been reviewing have been representations made by the Police Commission in Calgary regarding this item. MR. LEE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Could the hon.

Solicitor General confirm that at present, some 97.5 percent of all fines for moving violations are $30 or less and that this is not in fact providing any form of deterrent, making it difficult for local police officers to enforce the local law? MR. SPEAKER: I'm sure the hon. member has had an oppor­ tunity just now, without any kind of notice on the Order Paper, to make a representation to the hon. minister. MR. LEE: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

Could the minister indicate to members of this House whether or not he is in possession of information that in fact indicates that, given the level of fines, there is no present deterrent against breaking a local moving violation bylaw? DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, the member is raising the whole matter of effective deterrents. The difficulty of course is that the whole question of deterrent value in traffic offences is a very indefinite one. For instance, take the matter of speeding. Last year in the province, there were over 200,000 convictions for speeding.

If you relate that to the safety aspect — and although the portfolio is responsible for law enforcement, I think we have to relate the law enforcement to the purpose of it; that is, the safety of people using the highways. Speeding is related to some 3 percent of accidents involving personal injury. When one relates that to the 50 percent of accidents that in one way or another — not necessarily a direct, causal relationship — involve alcohol consumption, the amount of effort and law enforcement that goes into the enforcement of speeding regu­ lations is perhaps disproportionate.

With regard to the offences the member is mentioning, I think he's relating the fines for moving offences under bylaws to those fines for parking tickets. The moving offences are related to the possibility of severe accidents, especially going through stop signs or making illegal left turns. That is a very different aspect of law enforcement from that of the fund-raising ability of parking meters and overstaying your welcome at a parking meter. But I have been considering the matter of the

238 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1984 relationship of the two, and hopefully over the next number of months we will address the issue. MR. PURDY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question. In the review, is the minister considering also reviewing the demerit point system and maybe lowering that from 15 to some other number? People will be more conscious if you take their wheels away at 10 demerit points instead of 15. [interjections] DR. REID: Mr. Speaker, to review the points system, one would have to look at all aspects of it.

Reducing the number of points by itself would not necessarily achieve the aim the hon. member has, which may be to put me off the highway. I'm sure the relationship of the severity of the offence to the number of points allocated will be included in the review the Minister of Transportation and I will be doing over the next several months. MR. PURDY: Mr. Speaker, with respect to the groans that went through the Assembly, it would appear that a number of hon. members are close to the 15 points. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Clover Bar, and then the hon.

Minister responsible for Native Affairs wishes to sup­ plement some information arising, I think, from a question asked in a previous question period. Hazardous Waste Disposal DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of the Environment. This has to do with the transportation of hazardous wastes to the proposed new disposal site. Can the minister indicate what studies his department has been doing as to the problems that will be involved in the transportation of hazardous wastes to the disposal site? Does the minister have that study under way at this time? MR. BRADLEY: Mr.

Speaker, we don't have a specific study, but a lot of information with regard to handling special wastes is available to the department. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, if this information is available, can the minister indicate if the department is looking at central collecting areas, and then moving the wastes from those central collecting areas to the hazardous wastes disposal site? MR. BRADLEY: Mr.

Speaker, that will be one of the matters which will be under consideration by the Special Waste Man­ agement Corporation, but it certainly is one of the ideas being considered for the collection of special wastes in the province. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, can the minister indicate what studies have been done as to the disposal of relatively small hazardous chemicals, such as the things that come out of, say, clothing cleaning plants? Will there be a central collecting agency for these smaller wastes, so they can be transported from a small site to a central site and cut down on the amount of spillage and so on? MR.

BRADLEY: Mr. Speaker, we hope to have in place an efficient and safe transportation system for special wastes in the province. This certainly will be a matter the Special Waste Management Corporation will have under consideration. The implementation of an overall special waste system, from destruction through to transportation to the site, the matter the hon. member raised, will be considered by the Special Waste Management Corporation in implementing this system. DR. BUCK: Mr. Speaker, a final supplementary question.

At some time will the minister be in a position to indicate to the Assembly what provisions will be made and how expensive it will be to move these hazardous wastes from where they are generated to the disposal site? Will that information be avail­ able? MR. BRADLEY: In the system, Mr. Speaker, certainly a num­ ber of the things the hon. member raises are under the Trans­ portation of Dangerous Goods Act. But for the special waste management facility, we're looking at a postage-stamp rate for transportation of special wastes from generators through to the disposal or destruction system. Mill Woods Hospital MR.

PAHL: Mr. Speaker, I apologize. It's actually a statement from the budget debate of March 28. In view of the natural tendency of members of this party to make conservative state­ ments, when I referred to the man-years of construction being provided by the Mill Woods general hospital I said "150 man- years". I really should have said "1,150 man-years". I want that statement corrected. I apologize for getting into the ques­ tion period.* Subsidized Housing Rental Rates MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct my question to the Minister of Housing.

It's with regard to a reported rental increase of 14 percent for residents of a provincially subsidized project in Calgary called Beacon Hills, I believe. Is the minister aware that major rental increases have recently been approved by Alberta Home Mortgage Corporation for subsidized hous­ ing? MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, yes I am aware. Increases on CHIP projects have to be approved by the corporation, and the rent increases referred to by the Member for Edmonton Nor­ wood were approved by the corporation. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker.

Can the minister advise why the increase was approved for a project largely funded by public money and intended to provide low- cost housing? MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, the core housing incentive pro­ gram loan program to developers provides mortgage funds to developers where half the units are controlled rent and the other half are market rent. The project the member is referring to is a fairly new project. The estimates of the rent were based on the estimated cost of property taxes, utilities, and other oper­ ating costs that are necessary in the operation of a building.

Subsequent to the building operating for approximately a year, the matter was reviewed at the request of the developer. It was determined that those costs were underestimated, and the rents were adjusted accordingly. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question to the minister, Mr. Speaker. With regard to the Beacon Hills project, with public assistance of 90 percent at 7 percent interest, I believe — and it's supposed to be geared to roughly half the people or to income — does the department have any set policy guidelines, *See Hansard March 28, 1984, page 202, right column, paragraph 2

March 30, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 239 perhaps a ceiling, for AHMC to follow for projects similar to Beacon Hills? MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, I have to clarify the point made by the hon. member. These are mortgages and not grants. As I indicated, half the units are market and half are controlled rents. In saying that they're controlled rents, that's precisely what is meant. The return to the developer is strictly controlled in terms of the return he is able to obtain from that half of the project. Yes, they are controlled. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question to the minister.

In a time of restraint and lowered shelter allowances for social recipients, how can the government justify a 14 percent rent hike for subsidized housing? MR. SPEAKER: Obviously that's a matter for debate. I think that would be apparent to the hon. member. But the thing having been put out there, it would be less than fair if the minister were not to have an opportunity to answer it. MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, maybe I haven't made it clear, or maybe the member is having difficulty in hearing what I'm saying.

On the control side, the return to the developer is strictly controlled within the range of a 5 percent return on equity investment. So that is the basis upon which those controls are in place on the control side of those units. MR. MARTIN: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. I was not asking about that end of it. My question is about social recipients. Is the minister not aware that in a time of restraint, when there are lowered shelter allowances, some people are paying more than their shelter allowances for subsidized hous­ ing? MR. SHABEN: Mr.

Speaker, I don't really understand how that relates to the Department of Housing. There are a variety of programs. As a matter of fact, the number of programs for housing Albertans in Alberta far exceeds anything available in any other province in Canada. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Speech, speech. MR. SPEAKER: Given the nature of the question, I couldn't possibly intervene on that answer. I don't mean to stop the hon. minister. In fact, I was doing the opposite; I was saying that I couldn't ask him to stop. MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, a variety of housing programs are available for individuals in Alberta with low incomes.

Com­ munity housing is clearly one of the most important areas in providing housing assistance, and that is geared to income: 25 percent of income is the rate at which recipients with low income are able to qualify. There are presently vacancies in our community housing programs. On the core housing incen­ tive program, there is also a qualifier with respect to income for eligibility of individuals to access those units. There are other programs available for people with low income.

I'm not sure of the point the member is making with respect to rental rates as they relate to housing programs that are developed and provided by the government of Alberta. MR. MARTIN: Mr. Speaker, supplementary question. I didn't realize that a 14 percent rent hike would be so confusing. I'll ask the minister a different question. Given the minister's statements of a pending merger of Alberta Home Mortgage Corporation with Alberta Housing Corporation, what planning is in store for subsidized housing projects like Beacon Hills? In other words, will that kind of program support ease off, and if so, in what way?

MR. SHABEN: Mr. Speaker, that's a fairly detailed question. I'm sure that when the estimates of the Department of Housing are dealt with by the Assembly, there will be an opportunity for me to respond more fully. Also, I would propose that legislation be brought forward in due course, and that would be an appropriate time to debate that sort of question. MR. MARTIN: Well, let me ask it very . . . MR. SPEAKER: We're just at the end of the allotted time. If this question can be answered briefly and is not a continuation of debate, perhaps we can recognize the member for a further supplementary. MR.

MARTIN: One last. I'll just ask it very simply, rather than going into any detail. Is it in the government's program in the future to ease off on programs of subsidized housing like Beacon Hills? MR. SHABEN: Again, Mr. Speaker, that is a budget question. If the hon. member would review the estimates, he would note that there are no funds allocated for the core housing incentive program for the current year. ORDERS OF THE DAY head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS 5. Moved by Mr. Crawford:

Be it resolved that the report of the special committee appointed March 15, 1984, under Standing Order 46, be now received and concurred in and that the committees recommended therein be hereby appointed. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, when passed, this motion will appoint the several committees that are referred to in the Votes and Proceedings of Monday of this week. [Motion carried] head: GOVERNMENT BILLS AND ORDERS (Third Reading) Bill 28 Appropriation (Interim Supply) Act, 1984 MR. HYNDMAN: Mr.

Speaker, I move third reading of Bill No. 28, the Appropriation (Interim Supply) Act, 1984. [Motion carried; Bill 28 read a third time] MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, His Honour the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor will now attend upon the Assembly. [Mr. Speaker left the Chair]

240 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1984 head: ROYAL ASSENT SERGEANT-AT-ARMS: Order! His Honour the Lieutenant Governor. [The Honourable Frank Lynch-Staunton, Lieutenant Governor of Alberta, took his place upon the Throne] MR. SPEAKER: May it please Your Honour, the Legislative Assembly has, at its present session, passed a certain Bill to which, and in the name of the Legislative Assembly, I respect­ fully request Your Honour's assent.

CLERK: Your Honour, the following is the title of the Bill to which Your Honour's assent is prayed: Bill 28, Appropriation (Interim Supply) Act, 1984. [The Lieutenant Governor indicated his assent] CLERK: In Her Majesty's name, His Honour the Honourable the Lieutenant Governor doth assent to this Bill. SERGEANT-AT-ARMS: Order! [The Lieutenant Governor left the House] [Mr. Speaker in the Chair] MR. SPEAKER: While we're waiting for the return of the hon. Acting Premier, might the hon. Member for Lac La Biche- McMurray revert to Introduction of Special Guests? HON.

MEMBERS: Agreed. head: INTRODUCTION OF SPECIAL GUESTS (reversion) MR. WEISS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker and members of the Assembly. Today it is a privilege for me to rise for an unprec­ edented third day in a row to introduce guests. I'm sure that will never happen again. It's my pleasure to introduce to you, and through you to members of the Assembly, Mayor Chuck Knight of the city of Fort McMurray. Mr. Knight is here not only as a guest but as a working representative of the city of Fort McMurray.

This morning he signed a development agreement, on behalf of the city of Fort McMurray, with the Alberta Housing Corporation for the devel­ opment of water and sewage treatment facilities for the new Timberlea subdivision. As part of this agreement early this morning, the Minister of Housing presented a cheque to His Worship. Mr. Speaker, the significance of this event is that the cheque was for $35 million, which is of major importance to all parties concerned. I ask Mr. Knight, seated in the members gallery, to rise and receive the warm welcome of this Assembly. head: GOVERNMENT MOTIONS (continued) 4.

Moved by Mr. Hyndman:

Be it resolved that the Assembly approve in general the fiscal policies of the government. [Adjourned debate March 29: Mr. Purdy] MR. PURDY: Mr. Speaker, it's my pleasure this morning to rise and make a few comments on the budget speech presented to us last Tuesday. I'd like to personally congratulate the hon.

Provincial Treasurer for the excellent job he did in presenting the speech but, more so, congratulate him and members of the Executive Council for their endeavour to bring in a budget that reflected our belief, as a government, in the private sector of the province of Alberta and in toning down expenditures in many areas. I'll be saying more about this later in my speech. I have full regard for the gentleman who left this room a few minutes ago, the Lieutenant Governor. Two Fridays ago, when I read in The Edmonton Journal an

article written by a columnist, degrading the Lieutenant Governor, I wrote a letter to the editor. To this date I've had no response, and there has been no acknowledgment of it either in the paper or to my desk. I thought it was degrading of Don Braid to make the comments he did about the Lieutenant Governor of this prov­ ince, saying he couldn't hear the speech, that the words flowed from the mouth of the Lieutenant Governor into the cloak of his coat. He said people were sitting there listening to it and couldn't hear anything. I take on Mr.

Braid about those com­ ments, because I think it's degrading for any member of the press to make comments about a gentleman we hold in high esteem in this Legislative Assembly of Alberta. The budget of last Tuesday will help the Stony Plain con­ stituency in many areas. The two areas I'd like to point out are transportation and social services. We'll have a number of transportation projects in the constituency this year.

The high­ way that brings everybody into Edmonton, namely Highway 16 west, is still the busiest highway in the province of Alberta, generating in the neighbourhood of 40,000 cars one way at the Winterburn overpass. Plans are still proceeding on

schedule for building the other four-lane highway north of Highway 16, called 16X. This will certainly eliminate a lot of the traffic congestion, especially the truck traffic, once the highway is completed in 1986. The other direct benefit we'll see from the budget is in the Department of Social Services and Community Health. The decentralization of Social Services and Community Health to the town of Spruce Grove approximately two years ago, and the continued decentralization, has helped to meet the needs of the people of the constituency.

The Stony Plain constituency has in its borders a large area of the city of Edmonton and includes major areas such as Spruce Grove, Stony Plain, Wabamun, Alberta Beach, Seba Beach, part of the county of Parkland, and part of the County of Lac Ste. Anne. The total voter population is in the neighbourhood of 27,000, and I represent a total population of probably 60,000 people.

A boundaries commission is reviewing the boundaries in the province, and the Stony Plain Progressive Conservative Association will be sending a submission to them in an attempt to have the boundaries stay about natural, except for the area that is now within the corporate boundaries of the city of Edmonton. We know the urban definition would have to go into two or three of the urban constituencies in the city of Edmonton, such as the constituencies of the Minister of Labour or the Speaker, and there could be one other affected. I'd like to look at some of the towns in the constituency and what is happening there.

In the town of Spruce Grove, housing is still proceeding. Melcor is developing and selling lots and houses in the town. I spoke earlier about social services, which was decentralized two years ago. It has certainly served the town and area very, very successfully. A new liquor store is now under construction in the town of Spruce Grove, and new industries are looking at locating in the town. The other town I'd like to look at is Stony Plain. Many hon. members in this House heard about the financial problem of the town of Stony Plain last fall and throughout this winter.

March 30, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 241 As far as I'm concerned, those financial problems are now behind us. The town council and its administration must be congratulated for the way they approached the problem. They didn't come to government with hat in hand, wanting a com­ plete bailout. They sat down with officials from the Department of Municipal Affairs and worked out some agreements on what would eliminate some of their financial problems and redirect some of their resources, and this has happened. The town will not see a 50 percent increase in residential taxes, as was forecast back in November.

It will probably be in the neighbourhood of 25 percent, and that's barring the no-growth budget of the school board. I have some concern, because in the last number of years we've been hit with higher supplementary requisitions. This year, with the no-growth increase in the Department of Education, we could see a couple of percentage points for educational purposes in the mill rate. A number of exciting things are happening in the town of Stony Plain, however. One is Westerra. I will come back to that, because I want to make some further remarks on that particular institution and facility.

The town has two industrial parks, which were the ones that actually got them into the financial difficulties. However, since they have taken some new directions and not turned the parks over to private enterprise but asked two realty companies to come in and market the land for them, it is starting to turn. The opening of Joe Doherty's Chev-Olds garage was held last Friday evening in one of the industrial parks. After the opening comments, Joe told me that after his move from down­ town Stony Plain to the highway access, he sold 20 vehicles in the first week of opening.

So when people tell me that there is a downturn in the economy or a recession out there, I don't see it, when a car dealer can tell me that he has sold 20 new vehicles in a week. The other significant announcement for the town of Stony Plain happened last Wednesday, and that was the announcement by Andrew Wolf wines. They are presently located in Coch­ rane. MR. STEVENS: Sorry to see them go. MR. PURDY: The hon. minister who represents Banff-Coch- rane says he is sorry to see them go. I personally think that if the planning authorities in that area had got behind Mr.

Wolf, we would not be seeing the winery in the town of Stony Plain. They procrastinated. They did things; they did other things. The municipalities and the town didn't help them out. They tried other areas of Alberta. Nobody helped them out. They were nine months to a year in trying to pick a location. Some­ body said, why don't you look at Stony Plain? Mr. Wolf said, where is Stony Plain? So they came there and met, just about a month ago. They were there with the conceptional drawing. They will be starting to look at putting footings in the ground on June 1, 1984.

I think that's a significant development for the town of Stony Plain, to have the forethought for planning in place and not to hold people up with red tape. Many, many municipalities and our own government are guilty of holding up the planning process. Safeway will be starting construction in the next week or so of a 42,000 square feet store; in other words, one acre under one roof. Macdonalds hamburger chain has now bought land and is going ahead. Two gas bars are going ahead. Mr. Speaker, I guess this is what happens when you have private enterprise working in conjunction with people.

On the day of the unveiling of the announcement for the winery at Stony Plain, Mr. Wolf put it very, very bluntly. He said we need more entrepreneur- ship in this province; we need more people to go out and do what governments should not be doing. He is a free enterpriser from the word go, and he will not be coming back to our caucus, our government, looking for a handout. This gentleman started out a number of years ago as a free enterpriser, and he has that philosophy. Just to digress for a second, I will tell you a little story.

During his opening comments he held up a financial report of the Heritage Savings Trust Fund, and he went through that in fairly good detail for the 100-plus guests that were assembled. He looked at the equity side and said, that's what I like to see. He thought it was a good balance sheet all the way around. He held it up and said, I would like to know who the author of that Heritage Savings Trust Fund is. So in my remarks later in the afternoon, I asked Mr. Wolf if he was looking for a con­ troller for his company or what.

I said, I don't know that the author of the Heritage Savings Trust Fund would want to go to work for you as a controller, because that little guy is still the Premier of the province of Alberta, and I think he wants to stay there for a while. We also have quite a housing development going into the town. These are all presales, so we're not going to have any houses sitting there looking for occupants. I would also like to make some remarks on the Stony Plain hospital, but I will come back to those later on. I look at the village of Wabamun, where I reside, and there are some housing starts.

A new doctor's office and a pharmacy just recently opened, which will actually serve the area and look after the people who need a doctor, instead of going to Spruce Grove, Stony Plain, or Edmonton. As hon. members are aware, one of the TransAlta generating plants is located in the village, along with a coal mine operation just north of the town. A senior citizens' home was recently opened there. It is a four-unit residence, and they will be making application for probably a further four or eight in the very near future. Another exciting thing that happened was the opening of a senior citi­ zens' drop-in centre.

This was done by many, many hours of volunteer work. I understand the building is completely paid for. The building is probably worth $180,000 — $57,000 of provincial government assistance; the rest of it was paid for by volunteer help and senior citizens and other community mem­ bers getting behind that organization to make it go. I believe other areas of the constituency are expanding. There is a large number of summer villages there, but there are two that are quite a bit larger — Seba Beach and Alberta Beach. Both these areas are maintaining their residents.

In fact, at times I think there are more people moving from the city of Edmonton to reside there permanently, especially at Alberta Beach. Mr. Speaker, I would like to go back now and look at Westerra. Westerra was announced in this Assembly by the hon. Minister of Federal and Intergovernmental Affairs, who was then the Minister of Advanced Education. The building has proceeded, and there was probably $17 million to $18 million spent on it. But we have been attempting to have this facility expanded.

The province will not put any further capital into it until such time as an agreement is made as to what future courses should come to this particular institution. I have had meetings with the minister responsible. The board of governors of Westerra and the board of governors of NAIT can't seem to make a decision on what courses should be transferred from NAIT to Westerra. I have indicated to the minister, and I will say it again, that I think we should make a decision on this.

If the boards of governors can't get together, I think it is incumbent upon the minister to make that decision and decide what courses are going to be in Stony Plain and what courses are going to be in the city of Edmonton. Both

242 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1984 sides have been procrastinating too long. What we are going to end up with at Westerra is a glorified night school if we don't get the thing on the road now. I have full support for the administration and the board of governors out there. I think they are doing a good job. However, I think we have to have the minister involved in this to make a decision on the courses. I was glad to see the other day that the federal government put $3 million into Westerra for a computer training course. Mr. Speaker, I would now like to speak about the Stony Plain hospital.

The Stony Plain hospital is 22 years old. It was opened by a former Minister of Health of the previous government, Dr. J. Donovan Ross. Five years ago the hospital was just about closed down because of loss of accreditation. Dr. Ross was asked by our Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care to take over as chief of staff and try to bring the Stony Plain hospital back on stream. Dr. Ross has done this. I think he has done an excellent job in getting the hospital back to where it is now, an active treatment centre which has received its accreditation.

I thoroughly believe that the Minister of Hos­ pitals and Medical Care in this government is sympathetic towards the Stony Plain proposal for a new facility. I would just like to outline why a new facility is needed for that particular area. The service area serves about 44,000 people. The area is close to the Yellowhead Highway, both 16 and 16X.

This is an extremely busy thoroughfare, which is used by the suburban commuters who work in Edmonton, the commercial traffic between Edmonton and British Columbia, and holiday and weekend traffic to and from Jasper and to the local beach areas — and there are many of those. Although the highway is divided for the most part, it experiences a high rate of motor vehicle accidents, especially during the winter months. The hospital, as I said, is the only acute care facility in the district. There are no auxiliary hospitals in the district.

We have the Good Samaritan nursing home, which is 90 beds, and then we have a private nursing home, which is the Ever­ glades, a 56-bed facility located west of Stony Plain. The dis- trict is served by two regional ambulances, one called the Parkland Ambulance Authority and the other called Parkland Emergency, out of the village of Wabamun. The majority of accidents and people needing treatment are now taken to the Stony Plain hospital. The present medical practices and privileges are pretty significant for a hospital of that size. Nine people now have privileges in the hospital; three years ago there were none.

They have 14 associated physicians who can come in and do work, and in the total complement there are another 26 doctors available in very special fields like internal medicine, pediatrics, or whatever the case may be, who come to Stony Plain. So doctors who live in the area and also from various clinics in the city of Edmonton are willing to come to Stony Plain for their work in that hospital. I look at the physical aspect of the building, and I feel that even with the renovations that are going on, the facility is not conducive to what is required for modern-day medicine.

I have toured this facility a number of times. It was a good facility for 1963, but it's out of date for 1984. In the shower rooms and so on, where patients require assistance from a staff mem­ ber to go in and have a shower, you can't even get a wheelchair into the rooms. The private showers, even with the excellent maintenance that they carry on, leak and so on. The patient rooms where there are two beds have only one oxygen outlet, one vacuum outlet, and no compressed air outlet. At one time the emergency area of the hospital was sufficient.

But the space is nearly 50 percent less than the current amount of space allocated for newly constructed hospitals with 25- to 50-bed operation. There is a real lack of designated area in the waiting room and so on. According to the Department of Hospitals and Medical Care, even the space being constructed for the lab they're now building is below the standards required. We have no rehabilitation medicine at all in that hospital. There's no physiotherapy equipment. There is a physiotherapist who visits the hospital, but her work is limited.

There's no designated physio department within the hospital, and there's also no designated occupational therapy department within the hospital. Another area that really concerns the board, the doctors, and the administration is that in the event of a death in the hospital, there's no room to hold that particular body until such time as the funeral home arrives to take the body away. On a number of occasions, we have attempted to have some type of facility brought in as a body hold room, a kind of refrigeration room or whatever it is, but we haven't been successful.

As I stated earlier, I've toured this facility a number of times, and we've had the electrical protection branch and other branches of the Department of Labour out to the hospital. One thing that concerns me is that most facilities have backup heat­ ing systems. This hospital sits there with one HRT boiler, and it is shut down every June, July, August — whenever it is — and given a thorough going-over. However, if we had a failure in the winter, I don't know what would happen. There were a number of other recommendations made by the electrical pro­ tection branch to bring the facility up to present-day standards.

I just don't have time to go into all those, Mr. Speaker, but they are here. The ventilation system is way down below stan­ dards. The fire protection system was inspected in '82 by the fire protection branch of the Department of Labour. They made a number of recommendations, and I think these recommend­ ations have been carried out. Mr. Speaker, I would add that this facility is not a concrete facility; it is made of wood frame construction. In conclusion, I would like to read one paragraph from the hon. Provincial Treasurer's budget.

Regarding hospital facili­ ties, he states: Over the past few years, our rural citizens have bene­ fitted from an extensive program of upgrading and replac­ ing old and deteriorated rural hospitals. These improved facilities help sustain the viability of many small com­ munities at a small cost. The operating budgets for rural hospitals total only 7 percent of the total hospital operating budget. The same is true of capital construction costs. The seven similar-design new rural hospitals will cost less than 1 percent of the total [budget].

So I'm asking the Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care to look seriously at the proposal that was sent in by the board for the Stony Plain hospital. In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, I would just like to look at where this government, which I'm a member of, could cut some expenditures. I went through the licence plate scenario here back in December, I guess it was, when I proved without a word of doubt that it costs this government about $3 million to use the centralized system in the city of Edmonton. Last year only 400,000 ordered their plates through the mail.

They could go in and pick them up at their local licensing issuer. This year they couldn't, so it cost $2.58 for third-class mail to send every set of plates to people in Alberta. The other area I look at is the amount of newspaper adver­ tising we're doing. I'm not trying to take dollars away from the small weekly papers in rural Alberta, of which there are 116 in the province. But when I see an ad such as this, put in by Workers' Health, Safety and Compensation — "Overhead Power Lines Can Kill", and they call it "OOPS!" — it just doesn't go with me.

I think private enterprise is better off to do their own campaign, as TransAlta Utilities, Edmonton

March 30, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 243 Power, the city of Calgary, and other utility companies are doing. I don't think we need government spending these kinds of dollars to advertise overhead power lines. I'm a director of the Alberta Safety Council, and we as a council also have that word out there. What we're getting, Mr. Speaker, is a dupli­ cation by government advertising of what is being done by private enterprise. Today I look at the Stony Plain paper, The Reporter, and there are five quarter-page ads plus a half-page ad.

The half- page ad runs at $170-plus, because the government does it through an agency; they don't work directly with the Stony Plain Reporter. They have an agent in Edmonton that charges over and above the $170 to put the ad in the local paper. It's $85 for a quarter page. For the 116 papers we have in the province of Alberta — just the weeklies; not The Edmonton Journal or The Calgary Herald — we spend close to $4 million. That's a cursory type of multiplication that I have done, work­ ing on 116 weeklies at 52 weeks of the year, plus five or six a week on average.

I think something the Provincial Treasurer can take in mind when they start to look at the budgetary figures for 1985-86 — look at some of these ads that are coming out, which I feel are redundant and not necessary in this society today when we are looking at the cutback of expenditure. In conclusion, Mr. Speaker — I see I have about a minute left — all in all, I think it was a good budget, a working document that I'm proud to represent. On Wednesday morning I had a constituent, and I won't mention any names, who said to me that it wasn't much of a budget.

I guess they may have been listening to the opposition or somebody else. I said: well, that's fine; if you want to pick up stakes and move to British Columbia or Ontario or someplace, go right ahead, but I think most other provinces in Canada are pretty envious of the budget that was brought in last Tuesday. The majority of the constit­ uents I have talked to in the past four or five days have phoned and said they were very, very pleased with the outcome of the budget. They were somewhat taken aback by the remarks of the hon. Member for Clover Bar when he indicated that we'd have a 3 percent sales tax.

I've labelled the Member for Clover Bar "3-percent-Walter". That probably won't stick with him, but maybe it should. Mr. Speaker, it's been a pleasure to speak on this budget. Thank you. MR. NELSON: Mr. Speaker, in addressing the budget speech, hopefully I will get a twofold speech here, due to the fact I had my last effort in the House cut short. First, as the previous speaker did, I would like to congratulate the Provincial Treas­ urer for his superb presentation of a remarkable document.

Last evening I had a meeting in my constituency, and it was probably one of the best turned out meetings we've had in the last year and a half. Each month, or every two weeks, depending on when we have a meeting — usually monthly — we have an MLA report. Last night I didn't say very much in the main, other than talk a little bit about the budget and, of course, our weekend activity coming up. I handed out to each member a copy of the budget highlights, and during the evening they had an opportunity to review it.

After our meeting we went into the lounge at the club we go to — we have our meetings at the Austrian Canadian club — and of course they had an opportunity to discuss this budget document. Not one person had a negative view of the document. My constituency association directorship is made up of people from all walks of life. We have sales people, bankers, senior citizens, hou­ sewives, working-class people; for example, one gentleman works with AGT, another works in the construction industry.

Not one person complained or made a negative remark about the budget, and I might add that they had every opportunity to do so. Mr. Speaker, I think we can now see the light at the end of the tunnel. The budget seems to reflect the times we are presently living in. It provides consideration and considerable capital expenditures, creating not only jobs but much need services for our citizens. Some 55,000 man-years of work will be made available to the private sector and of course to other people who will eventually work in the various institutions that have been provided for in this budget.

It provides assistance for those who are less fortunate, be it the handicapped, the ill, senior citizens, or people in the lower fixed-income brackets. Mr. Speaker, we have come through some very economi­ cally difficult times. Certain components of our work force will find difficult times continuing. Due to the overheated economy of past years and the overbuilt situation in many areas of the province, our construction industry activity will be at a level below that which we would possibly desire. Mr.

Speaker, it's been mentioned in the budget — and I'm going to reflect on this two or three times during my discussion here this morning — that Alberta still has the highest number of people employed in proportion to the total working-age popu­ lation of any province in Canada. It's interesting to note in the labour force statistics that during the month of February, the participation rate in Alberta was 70.8 percent; that is, 70.8 percent of people available for work are in fact working.

You tell me where there's a socialist government in Canada that could do as well as our private-enterprise government in Alberta. In an examination of some numbers, let's look at Manitoba, where they have a delightful socialist government. MR. SZWENDER: Not for long. MR. NELSON: The hon. member to my right has suggested not for long. Hopefully his analogy is correct. Maybe then, that province too will create additional jobs through confidence of the private sector in that province, as we have in Alberta.

However, in dealing with the participation rate, Manitoba has a rate of 64.7 percent, which is some 6 percent lower than that offered in Alberta. There might be some who try to compare that analogy due to our economic strength in oil and gas. But it's interesting to note how our socialist friends on the opposite side continue to harp on how the gas and oil activity in Manitoba and Saskatchewan has reached such great levels that things are really bad here in Alberta. Because you're drilling 10 or 15 wells in the province does not necessarily mean things are really great.

When you look at Alberta, we're still drilling consid­ erably more. At the present time, I believe in excess of 200 wells are under development. With the confidence that is being built in Alberta by the oil sector coming in from offshore and the frontier, it seems to me that we have a great opportunity for the future development of our resources. Mr. Speaker, the public — or, as one might put it, the people who have to pay the bills — is continually saying to government, reduce your size and your spending. The budget clearly recognizes those thoughts that the majority of Albertans are suggesting.

It shows a reduction — and, as I understand from the hon. Treasurer, the first in over 40 years — of 1.7 percent in projected expenditures. At the same time, it shows the confidence of the private sector in our province with an increase of 4.3 percent in revenues due to, in the main I suggest, expected royalties from oil and gas. During the debate of the estimates and questioning of ministers, I'm sure we will all have questions as to where increases and decreases may be made in the future and where the priority of some expenditures may be in each department.

244 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1984 In dealing with current issues in the Calgary McCall con­ stituency, Mr. Speaker, I should reiterate, and I'm sure all members are aware, that the Calgary McCall constituency is the largest in the province by population, and I don't mind addressing that. We also grew by some 1,400 people last year when other constituencies, especially in the city of Calgary, decreased in population.

I don't know the total reason people want to move to the finest area in the city of Calgary, whether it's due to their confidence in their representative or not. [inter­ jections] But I am certainly very pleased to welcome these new residents to our communities in northeast Calgary. I'm sure they will enjoy the area, as have those of us who have lived there for many years. Mr. Speaker, the people of Calgary McCall have told me, through material I sent out, that their main concerns in the province, and in Canada for that matter, are unemployment and the economic circumstances we live in.

I'm sure this budget addresses many of those concerns. A lot of people who live in the communities work in the construction trades and are having difficulties at the present time. As I said just a few minutes ago, I can't see any major light at the end of the tunnel for people in those particular occupations. However, there are signs of other work being available to unskilled people in certain areas. Those people who are skilled in construction don't nec­ essarily feel they want to enter another occupation at this time of their lives. But in many cases it is being done, and being done successfully.

I'm sure that the announcement of the development of a major hospital in northeast Calgary, which will be developed in the McCall constituency, will offer some of these people some construction activity and the jobs they so deservedly wish to have. Mr. Speaker, the unemployment situation is probably not going to change dramatically anywhere in the country over the next year. I'm sure that in other jurisdictions, where governments have less to operate with than this one, they will also find more difficulty than we may here.

On the positive side of some of the construction activity during the last year, it should be noted that considering our population, housing starts in Alberta equated to the rest of Canada. That may not appear very significant considering the amount of activity during boom times. But during our period of recessionary activities, when it is felt that the turnaround of the rest of the country is somewhat ahead of ours, I think it is commendable to the policies of this government.

I want to emphasize — as I said, I'm going to do this two or three times — that we still have more people in the available work force employed per capita than any other province in Canada. That is a very significant and important statement to be able to make. Mr. Speaker, I guess anybody can complain about different things. It's interesting to note that some wish to say that we want more, and their hands are out all the time. Hon. members on the opposing team on the other side of the House are always coming up with ways to spend money. We can all do that. We can do that in the private sector.

We can always find ways to spend money. But how on earth do you tell the public: yes, we're going to spend, but we've got no manner to obtain those funds unless we tax you. I think the announcement by the hon. Treasurer of no new taxes, no increased taxes in 1984-85, is very, very exciting and extremely good news that is well- accepted in the community. When you consider the budgets of the last two years and the economic climate, when you consider all the things that are in this budget, and that there are no new taxes or no tax increases, I think that is just a phenomenal piece of work — just tremendous.

It's too bad 3-percent-Wally isn't here. I'm sure the adver- tising throughout the province of his thoughts of increased taxation certainly riled up a lot of people. Amazingly, though, I never had one call on that. So that just gives you the possible thoughts of the credibility people give to wild and woolly state­ ments like that — not too much. Then we hear occasional attacks by the opposition on employees of the government working with our native people. Mr. Speaker, let's encourage our workers to continue their sincere efforts in the jobs they do on behalf of our citizens.

Sure, maybe we could become more efficient in certain areas. Maybe we could do things at greater cost efficiency, at minimal cost. But let's not try to discourage them. It's very well to attack the government, the ministers or their departments, and what have you, but those are people working out there. If there's some wrongdoing or something of that nature, I'm sure we don't need to attack those people in public. Let's encourage them; let's try to work with them. Their lives aren't being made any easier by having to consider jobs that may be redundant.

However, at the same time there are many people working within the government service that do a good job. Mr. Speaker, the private sector also needs encouragement. If we were to develop policies similar to those that happened in B.C. a few years ago, which may appease some of our socialist friends or the socialist Liberals in Ottawa, we would not only discourage development of the private sector in Alberta, we would discourage jobs.

I think the commitment of our government to privatize and deregulate will, over the next months and years, continue to ensure the confidence of the private sector to develop and create jobs. Should any dramatic change occur that removes that confidence, the long-term job situation will not only get worse but may deteriorate to an extent that nobody could fix up, not even by pouring government money down the drain to try to do it. Mr. Speaker, it's certainly easy to stand in our places in the House and make continual statements about job creation and so on.

Yet let's consider the amount of job activity that has been and will be created from this budget. The confidence in the private sector being announced by various ministers, about getting jobs into the private sector, by offering jobs in the private sector, must be continued or we will have a real problem. Unless we continue to encourage the private sector and give some consideration to the thoughts of some of the socialists who suggest we should not do so but should keep it in the hands of government, we will have so many problems with unemployment in this province that we will not have any control whatsoever.

And the poor people out there will be unemployed. MR. SZWENDER: He's not listening. MR. NELSON: Oh, I don't care. Mr. Speaker, let's look at some of the job creation activities that will be taking place in Calgary McCall over the next few months. A supermarket chain is going to build a 68,000 square feet store, plus there will be other units built in a little shopping area. A 68,000 square feet store will possibly create up to 500 full- and part-time jobs in the private sector.

The new hospital to be developed in northeast Calgary at a cost of some $141 million will create, as I'm sure the Mill Woods hospital has done, some 1,150 man-years of jobs. That's just to construct the hospital. Sometime in the future, when that's built, it will cost $40 million or $50 million to run it. That's a lot of money and a lot of jobs. I might just add that I briefly saw a headline in The Edmonton Journal yesterday suggesting that the United Nurses associa­ tion, under its president, has suggested we don't need hospitals in Edmonton and Calgary. Mr. Speaker, I would sure love to

March 30, 1984 ALBERTA HANSARD 245 hear from my constituents on that statement, and tell me they don't need that hospital. If that be the case, I can come back and say: we don't need that $140 million, Mr. Treasurer; put it in the bank, and we'll reduce the deficit to $118 million. I would love to be able to reduce that deficit, but at the same time my responsibility is to represent my constituency. I don't think my constituency would reflect those views offered by the United Nurses of Alberta. But if they do, I would certainly like to hear from them.

Northern Telecom officially opened their large plant last year. With another major addition to the first plant they devel­ oped by the Deerfoot Trail and the expansion of job activity within the existing plant on 36th Street, they will create another 300 to 500 jobs in the Calgary McCall constituency. We have a large medical professional building being devel­ oped in the constituency — more jobs: doctors, optometrists, dentists, nurses, private-sector business, taxpayers. It helps our budget. In talking a little bit about medical care, Mr.

Speaker, I hope that in the future our minister will encourage private medical care facilities, especially those in the emergency care area. We have one in Rundle that does a superlative job within our community. I can only encourage our minister to encourage the additional development of these units — again, developed and operated by the private sector. They create jobs that are very productive. Mr. Speaker, I'm sure we've all recognized that Alberta is not an economic island. That has been said many times. Our constituents are a little smarter than some might think.

They appreciate and realize the values we have to offer in Alberta. Over a number of years, I've had the opportunity to travel to different countries in the world for various reasons. I had an opportunity to live in Australia for a number of years. I speak to a number of people who are now visiting different countries, those who are natural-born Canadians and those who are new to our country, those who now have their roots here, who have come from other countries. Mr. Speaker, we live in a land of bounty. We live in a land of milk and honey.

Sure, we all have our difficulties; we all have our little complaints about different things. I encourage our citizens and members here to visit our country and our province. We have something here that nobody else has. The difficulties that are being seen and are being addressed in countries outside ours — and, I guess, even in provinces in Canada — are unimaginable. Large populations with very small space are creating social discomforts. Mind you, many of these countries have socialist governments and attitudes, which are starting to change. They cannot continue. In summing up, Mr.

Speaker, I think it is very important that we recognize and address the many highlights of the budget. There will be a reduction of 1,100 full-time public- sector positions within this government. That is significant con­ sidering the discussions from the community. A drop in our budgetary deficit to a projected $258 million from an original projection in 1983-84 of $800-plus million; investment in job creating activities of $1.7 billion by government and $1.2 bil­ lion by Crown corporations — jobs, more jobs. Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to close on job activities — a new hospital that will be located in Calgary McCall constituency. On behalf of the citizens of northeast Calgary, I would like to express a vote of appreciation to our Minister of Hospitals and Medical Care for encouraging this development, considering the needs of that area. It is very important. The only thing I have to do now is get the Minister of Education to recognize the fact that there are 80,000-plus people in that area, and we need a high school. With that, Mr. Speaker, I'll thank you and sit. MR. MUSGROVE: Mr. Speaker, I move that we adjourn debate. MR.

SPEAKER: Does the Assembly agree? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. MR. SPEAKER: It is so ordered. MR. CRAWFORD: Mr. Speaker, I'm not able to say to the House right now whether or not there'll be a sitting on Monday evening, but I'll try to get that information to hon. members as early as possible on Monday. In the afternoon, the contin­ uation of the debate on the budget will proceed. Mr. Speaker, I move we call it 1 o'clock. MR. SPEAKER: Does the Assembly agree? HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. [At 12:02 p.m., pursuant to Standing Order 4, the House adjourned to Monday at 2:30 p.m.]

246 ALBERTA HANSARD March 30, 1984