Manitoba Hansard — 24 June 1982 (Sitting 83A, 32nd Legislature, 1st Session)

32-1-83a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 24 June, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. MR. ACTING CLERK, G. Mackintosh: It is again my duty to inform the House that Mr . Spea ker is unavoid ably absent and would ask the Deputy Speaker to take the Chair in accordance with the Statutes. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Deputy Speaker. MR. DEPU TY SPEAKER, J. Storie: Presenting Peti tions ... Reading and Receiving Petitions ... PRES ENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPEC IAL COMMIT TEES MR. DEP UTY SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Ellice. MR. B. CORRIN: Yes, Mr .

Deputy Speaker, I beg to present the second report of the Standing Committee on Statutory Regulations and Orders. MR. ACTING CL ERK: Yo ur Comm ittee met on Thursday, June 24, 19 82, and appointed Mr. Scott as Ch airman in the place of Mr . Fox, formerly a member of the Comm ittee. Your Committee has considered: Bill (No. 2) - The Residential Rent Regulation Act.

Loi sur le contr61e du loyer des locaux d'habita tion. Bill (No. 19 ) -

An Act to amend The Land lord and Tenant Act. And has agreed to report the same with certain amendments. All of which are respectfully submitted. MR. B. CORRIN: Mr . Deput y Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Dauphin, that the report of the Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. DEPU TY SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Health. HON. L. DES JARDINS : Mr .

Spea ker, I would like to advise the members of the House that, as requested, I' m tabling the guide lines on the Prog ram of Capital Recr eat ion Fac ilities, the Depar tment of Fitne ss, Recreation and Sports with the revenue from Lotter ies. These brochures will be distributed immediately to all mun icipal towns, villages, LGD s and In dian Band offices, as well as all northern community coun cils and committees. Workshops will be held in all regions and the Departme nt of Labour will provide guidance regarding building regulations. MR. DEPU TY SPEAK ER: No tices of Motion In troduction of Bills ...

MOTIONS OF COND OLENCE MR. DE PUTY SPEAK ER: The Honour able Fir st Min ister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Deputy Speaker, I have three Motions of Cond olence that I would like to make right now, one by one. The first, Mr . Speaker, is one dealing with the honour and the memory of a man who helped to shape the history of this province and I refer to one Berry Rich ards who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly for The Pas from 19 43 to 19 49. Mr . Ri chards served as a CCF member, as an In dependent CCF member, and then later as an Indepe ndent member.

He was elected at the age of 28. 3537 He quickly demonstrated himself to be an individual of very deep conviction and principle, great energy, great dedication. He worked towards the improve ment of the lives and the working conditions of men and women not only in his community, but through out the prov ince as a whole. He was elected at a time of great hope and expectat ion in Ca nada.

He believed in a particular vision of the future, in Canadians' desire for then economic and social cha nge and that recog nition was well kn own; at that particular time was demonst rated in Man itoba in that general election of 19 45 which saw the CCF ga in more votes in that par ticular election in Man itoba than any other po litical party in Man itoba, more votes than it was to receive in any other general election until the year 19 66.

Berry Ric hards was a man who best personified that fresh new spirit that was indeed swept into our pro vince, swept through our prov ince at that time and demonstrated itself in respect to some of the members that were elected in that '45 election. That spirit and that dedication made it very difficult for him to accept the compromises which were demanded of him from time to time with in the basis of our political parties and with in our parl iamentary system and he left the CCF twice.

In between the two departures and to demo nstrate the strength of the indiv idual, he came with in I believe it was one vote of being elected by his Caucus col leagues, the Leader of the CCF in the Province of Man itoba and the Manitoba Leader.

Sometimes, those who have been involved in con troversy lose the respect of their colleagues and their constituents, but I can speak from personal expe rience that indeed was not the case with one Berry Rich ards. · I campa igned in the constituency of The Pas some 10 years after the eventual defeat of Berry Ri chards in 19 49. 1 found during that campaign that Berry Ric hards was still remembered in The Pas with very deep respect and a fond ness by the residents in The Pas; a respect and a fondness which had quite an impact upon me at that particular time, that 10 years after a member's representation and after he had moved from the community, there was still a memory of the individual.

He was remembered within the CCF at the time for his organizational skills. I can remember having an opportunity to look at some organizational records of the time that he was a member of the Legislature and the number of meetings. The miles that he travelled within the province was such that in fact it ex ceeded

by far the meetings and the mileage that was covered by any other member of the then CCF Caucus. He was a geologist by training, worked in mining explor ation in Man itoba, Saskatchewa n, British Columbia and in Mex ico. Some might believe that this is a profession that is reserved only for rugged indi vidualists, yet I was happy to hear since the announce ment of Berry Rich ards' death that he had worked until just days before his death to help others to organ ize, to help others ach ieve human and social progress.

As a resident of Prince Albert, Saskatchewan - he moved to Saskatchewan after 19 49 - he helped to orga nize a Co mmunity Health Clinic so that, as a private citizen, he continued building upon that record of public service that he had first commen ced in Mani toba and what he helped to establish while he was a member of this Cha mber.

Canadians owe a great debt to the efforts of Berry Richards and to all those who do not hesitate to take up the cause of their fellow citizens despite the partic ular cost, and for all those horizons indeed that he represented at that time which were broader than per sonal interests and affairs. In some ways, he was an individual that was just a little ahead of his time, but it is with such individuals indeed that society prog resses and moves forward. They truly have, such individuals, and always will have a tremendous role to play to be at the forefront of improvement in our economy and our society.

Therefore, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for The Pas that this House convey to the family of the late Beresford Robert (Berr

y) Richards, who served as a Member of the Legislative Assembly of Man itoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereave ment and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful life of active community and public service, and that Mr. Spea ker be requested to forward a copy of this resolution to the family. MR. DE PUTY SPEA KER: The Member for The Pas. MR. H. HARAPIAK: Mr . Speaker. it is an honour and a privilege to rise and second the Motion of Condolence with our Premier. Beresford Robert Rich ards was born on August 26, 19 14 in Weymo uth, England. His family moved to Canada in 19 21.

He was educated in Alberta; he received his university education in Edmonton where he received a degree in Mining Engi neering. He was first elected to the Legislature on August 17 , 19 43 and re-elected in 19 45. He was the first CCF member elected from Northern Man itoba. In 19 45, Mr. Ric hards was one of the members who led the fight to give the Treaty and non-Treaty In dians their right to vote in municipal, provincial and federal elections. Berry Richar ds truly believed in the potential that ex ists in Northern Manitoba.

He never tired of promot ing the Hudson Bay Rai lway and Chur chill as a natural seaport. As a member, Berry Rich ards, fought hard and long to make improvements in the traditional means of livelihood for northerners. As a member of the Oppo sition, he made positive suggestions as how the fishing and the trapping industries could be improved. He also recognized the potential that agri culture had for Northern Man itoba; he realized that it would be a stabilizing effect on the area. He worked many long hours to improve the lot of farmers in the Carrot River Valley.

Berry Richards resided in The Pas for 20 years where he is remembered as a man of great princi ple who continually fought for the rights of the underprivi leged. He was known by his friends as a loving father and a strong family man. Whil e he was a resident of The Pas, he managed a Co-op Store and he was an agent for In vestors Syndi cate. He was extremely well liked and respected and is fondly remembered by many friends he has left behind in The Pas. After moving to Prince Albert, he was very active in the community until the time of his death.

Berry Ric hards completed one novel and was in the process of writing a second one which will be completed by a friend. After a lengthy illness, Berry Richards passed away on May the 18 th. He is survived by his wife, Verna, four children, six step-children and five grandchi ldren. I join with the Premier and this Assembly in convey ing sincere sympathy to his family. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Oppo sition. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, the Official Oppos ition would, of course, wish to be fully associated with the motion moved by the First Min ister and seconded by the Member for The Pas commemorating the memory of Berry Rich ards. He was not a man whom I knew personally but, as a yo ung law student, I used to come to the gallery occa sionally and Berry Rich ards was a person that I saw in action in this House, little realizing that perhaps nine years later, I would be in action in the House for somewhat the same purposes as he was at that time. He was, as the First Min ister has said, one who caught your eye.

He was vivid in debate, vivid in his descrip tions of his causes; he fought his causes hard and he fought them well according to his lights. Even within his own chosen party, there were not too many who always agreed with him or, perha ps conversely, he did not choose to agree necessarily with them. He was an individualist. His strengths, as the First Min ister and the Member for The Pas have po inted out, were appare nt to all and he served his constituents well.

He deserves this mark of respect and his family certainly warrant the motion that this House traditionally passes for all members. 3538 It is a shame, in a way, that he left our Man itoba community and went to Saskatc hewan, but I know from what has been said and from my own know ledge that he continued to serve his adopted province of Saskatchewan ex ceedingly well. So we join in this Motion of Condolence to Mrs. Ric hards and to the family with full heart. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Min nedosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank yo u, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

I, too. would like to add my word of condolence to the Ri chards' family. I knew Berry Ric hards personally in my years spent in the North. In those days, pol itics didn' t mean as much to me as it does today. Berry Ri chards was a customer of mine and a warm, friendly person who I had very very many interesting visits

Thur sday, 24 June, 1982 with. He had a keen abiding interest in the North. I had gone up there about the time that he'd got into politics and the North was booming in those days. He used to travel from Prince Albert back to The Pas on many occasions in the line of work that he pursued after he had left the political arena. So I just wanted to add my word of sympathy to the family because he was a man that you immediately took a liking to.

He was a warm, friendly person, very very interested in his fellow Man itobans and his fellow Canadians and especially what was going on in Northern Manitoba and what was happe ning to nor therner s. When you're in Northern Manitoba and are part of it, that becomes very very important to you.

So I appreciated the fact that I had some years of personal acquai ntance with Berry Ri chards and regret that I was absent from the House last week and did not know the condolences were coming up or I might have gone back into my memory and some of my notes and gathered up some other points of interest on Berry Ri chards' life and service to Man itoba. But I did want to add my word of condolence to the family on this motion. QUE STION put, MO TION carried. MR. DE PUTY SPEAK ER: The Honour able First Min ister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: I rise now to present to this Chamber a Motion of Condolence to honour the memory of Ernest Newburn McG irr. Ernest McGirr was a distinguished Man itoban who served as a Member of the 23rd Legislature from his election in 19 49 until the general election of 19 53. A Progressive Conservative, he served as a member of the coalition which was led by Premier D.L . Campbe ll. Mr . McG irr was born in Emerson, Manitoba, and educated in this prov ince. In 1914 , he moved to Dau phin, joined the long-established firm of Campbell and Simpso n.

Ernest Mc Girr became a partner in 19 16 and practised law until he sought election to a seat which was vacated after many years by Robert Haw ki ns. He was 52 at the time, a man who had established a place in his community and achie ved substance in his career as a lawyer. In this, he reflected qu ite well a tradition which has declined as government and pub lic affairs become more and more complex. His ser vice in the Legislature was an extension of his service to the community. His interest in po litics was not an occupation or necessarily a preoccupat ion.

It was overall a concern for Dauphin and for Man itoba as a whole. Ernest Mc Girr was a constructive and far-sighted member of the Legislative Assembly. None who sit here today were his colleagues at the time that he sat in this Ch amber. but I want to note that in the Throne Speech Debate in 19 53, Ernest Mc Gir r suggested that municipalities had a right to partic ipate in the income tax fields.

It was some 22 years later when indeed such a system was introduced to some extent in the Prov ince of Man itoba and Manitoba became the first prov ince to share in growth taxes with the mun icipal level of government. The times were such that Ernest Mc Gir r was not in a position to turn his ideas and his suggestions into government programs, yet his sug- gestions bore fruit and he. himself, survived this defeat by many many years, living to the grand age of 95. In recognition of the contribution to this Ch amber and to our pro vince.

I move, seconded by the Honour able Member for Dauph in, that this House convey to the family of the late Ernest Newburn McGir r, who served as a Member of the Legislative Assembly of Man itoba, its sincere sympat hy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to duty in a useful line of active community and public service, and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of the motion to the family. MR. DEP UTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Dauphin. MR. J. PLOHMAN: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I am honoured to be able to second this motion in honour of the memory of Ernest Newburn McGi rr.

It is a special privi lege for me to recognize this former member for Dauphin, who was elected in 19 49, when I was but one year old. Now, 33 years after his election, many of the words he spoke in this Chamber, many of the principles he stood for, remain issues of concern to many of us. Time marches on, but change comes very slowly. I have great respect for this pe rson I regretfully never knew. Ernest McGir r was born in Emerson, Man itoba in 18 87 and received his education in Morden and Win nipeg. He and his wife, Elizabeth, had two daught ers, Nora and Kathlee n.

He was a person actively involved in minor hockey in Dauphin, a lawyer well respected in muni cipal law, a former solicitor for the Town of Dauphin and an honourary life bencher of the Law Society. I find a kin ship with the memory of Mr. McGir r, the sacrifices he and hi s family made for Manitoba under trying conditions dur ing those days of the early '50s. I find a ki nship, as well, with many of the issues he raised. He believed in fairness in exer cising the pow ers of gove rnment.

He said here in 19 51 , "The people of Man itoba look to the Legislature to be fair, particu larly when taking something by the exercise of the sovereign powers of the Legislature. If the supreme body of the province did anything unfair, it would be giving lead to moral laxity. " Also in 19 51 , Mr . Mc Girr called on the government to quit temporizing and reorganize the wh ole educa tion system in Man itoba. He said, "Form larger school areas wherever possible. " He urged the government, "Act boldly and with vision. The public will not damn you for so doing, but will rise up and call you blessed.

" Some honourable members may recall that in 19 46, the Dauphi n-Ochre School area was the first large school area formed and led the way for a consolida tion that followed across Man itoba. Mr. McG irr was obviously a supporter of that move. 3539 He had other beliefs about education that many of us hold as priorities. He said, "The fairest way to levy education costs is by prov ince-wide levies, so that the burden will be shared eq ually by all citizens.

" He insisted, as well, that some way must be found to make people who do not own property, but who make com paratively large incomes bear their share of the cost. "The system of levying taxes on real estate, " he said,

"was archaic and outgrow n. We should provide for all the children of Man itoba an equal chance and we must make all bear an equal burden." As we look at that statement today, we realize that we indeed have come a long way to achieving this ideal that Mr . McGirr stood for. Great strides have been made, but I' m sure we would all agree that we still have a long way to go_, Mr . Speaker, with those few reflections on and words by Mr .

McGir r, I respectfully join my condolen ces to his family with those of the Honou rable First Min ister to honour the memory of the former Member for Dauphin, the late Ernest Newburn McGir r. MR. ACTI NG DE PUTY SPEAKER, H. Har apiak: The Leader of the Opp osition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, again, we of Ernie McGir r's Party would associate ourselves fully with the words spoken by the First Min ister and seconded by the Member for Dauphin. Ern ie, whom I knew well, was first and foremost a great Tory. I' m proud to say that, because he would want me to say tha t, because that's wha t he wanted to be known as.

He was a good Tory and, at the risk of becom ing a little po litical which he wouldn' t mind in the least, Ernie, who's probably watching over these proceed ings at this moment, would say that those progressive ideas that I had back in the '40s and the '50s about school costs and about larger school dis tricts and so on had to wait until a good Tory Govern ment was elected in 19 58 before they could be brought into being. That, in fact, happened as well. He was an imposing man, imposing in appearance. He was a man of about my height and it's diffi cult for people of my height to be imposing in appearance, Mr .

Speaker, but Ernie was an imposing man, somewhat solid in appearance and not the kind of a person that you would gladly run up to or quickly run up to and grab by the arm because he looked like a very solid citizen, which he was, but behind that facade of solid appearance was one of the warmest hearts and one of the men who enjoyed life as much as anyone that I have known. He was a lawyer and he made his living by being a well respected lawyer in the Town of Dauphin and for many clients in the surrounding district, not only of the constituency of Dauphin but indeed in the whole of the northwest of Manitoba.

Beyond that, beyond the people tha t he saw in his office day by day and to whom he gave legal advice and so on, he was more of a friendly counsellor to many many others who never received a law bill from him but who knew that they could always go to Ernie McGir r for good advice. I think many Members of the Legislature found him to be that way when he was in the House. He said wise things because he thought wise thi ngs.

Individual members of the House, I know have told me, contem poraries of his day here, that Ernie was the kind of man to whom you could go and seek advice and very often that advice was the best that you could obtain. His interest in po litics continued after his retirement in 19 53. I used to see him on different occasions as a yo ung lawyer. He would go to the Bar Association meetings. He was an honou rary life bencher of the Law Society. He continued all of his community inter- ests in the Northwest area of Man itoba.

As a yo ung Attorney-General, I remember going to Ernie Mc Gir r for advice on appointments in that area and the advice that he gave in those days was as good as he would have offered if the present Attorney-General had gone to him for advice, because he thought well of Mani toba and he would always try to give advice based upon his idea of what would serve the public interest the best. I used to call in to see Mr . McGirr whe never it was possible to do so when I was in Dauphin. My last memorable visit with him was just before he had to leave his home.

He was a widower and he continued to live on in his home with some neighbours helpi ng him to carry on and then he had to go into a personal care home because of some illness that he had. He was the kind of man who would welcome you very warmly into his home, any company that chose to come and see him, and he would certainly not try to monoplize the conversation but he was himself a mine of great anec dotes about this Chamber, about the people with whom he sat, about earlier po liticians ranging back to the time of Sir Rodman Roblin, who was a predeces sor of the present First Minister and myself and so on.

He was a joy to be with. He enjoyed good times, good company; he was a great conversationalist and he enjoyed a good glass of wh iskey. He wouldn' t mind my saying that either, because when I called on him when I first became the leader of our party in Dauphin, he said, you'r e about the fourth leader of our party that's been a guest in my home. He said the first thing a Leader of the Tory Party has to do in my home is have a glass of Scotch whiskey, and that's what we did. So tha t was the kind of man to whom we pay tribute today. He was spared by the good Lord to live well into his nineties.

His mind remained very active; he con tinued to be active insofar as his phy sical ailments permitted him to be in the community. He was, all in all, one of those fine citizens that any commun ity in this province, indeed in this country, would be proud to have and to recogn ize as a great contributor not only to the community, but to the province and to his country which he loved so dearly. 3540 So we on this side of the House, Mr. Speaker, join unreservedly in the warm comments made by the First Min ister and by the Member for Dauphin in the sym pathy to his surviving daughters. QUE STION put, MOTION carried.

MR. ACTI NG DEPUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable First Mi nister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Speaker, I wish now to present to this Cha mber a Motion of Condolence in honou r of the memory of Thomas Aidan Barrow. Mr. Speaker, in respect to this motio n, of course, it differs from the others to the extent that most of us in this Chamber have sat with Tom Barrow over the past number of years. Tom was, first and foremost, a worker and a fighter. He contributed a great deal of organization and backbone to our Caucus from 19 69, when we were in gove rnment, right on to the time that we were in Opp osition.

I can recall very well, espe cially in the period 19 78-79 into 19 80, the pain that

Thursday, 24 Ju ne, 1982 Tom Barrow would suffer. He would suffer pain when he would be sitting in on committee meetings and some of us wo uld urge him to go home, go back to his hotel room, and he would insist on staying on. He continued throughout that pai n, whic h at times was quite intense, to be a very capab le and a very effective representative from Flin Flon. He was always very true to his prin ciples and spoke out qu ite frequently in Caucus, very strong in respect to his pri nciples, to his support of the labour move ment, which was very dear to his heart, and to his party.

He will be missed very very much. I can remember specifically Tom Barrow's anguish any time that a miner would be killed or a miner would be injured. I am sure we can recall the debates that took place repeatedly in this Chamber, both during the times that we were in government and when we were in Oppos ition, in con nection with the pa in that we all felt Tom Barrow was suffering from whe never th ere was a miner who was killed from a mining accident in Flin Flon. He never ceased to poi nt that out to his colleagues in his own party and to other members of this Cham ber.

He loved people and he had qu ite an experience with boxi ng. In some ways, his experience as a boxer in his younger days carried on through to his expe rience as a fighter in this Ch amber because he believed in the hard battle. Whether it was in boxing or whether it was in politics, he was pr epared to punch out effectively and forcefully for what he believed in. One of the human areas that I always found Tom in my own memories to be most in respect to was his love for children and for storytelling.

I remember bringing by daughter, Ch arysse, into the Legislature at differ ent times when she was six, seven years of age, take her up to my office and my good ness, she would disappear and I wouldn' t be able to find her in this building. Sometimes a couple of hours would pass by before I would find out where she would be. She would be next to Tom Barrow somewhere and Tom would be telling her stories about his own childh ood, about his experiences in Flon Flon. It reached a point, Mr . Deputy Spea ker, whenever I would bring Cha rysse to this Chamber, she didn't stay around wh ere I was very long.

She would head off to find Tom Barrow. I have spoken to others who indicated that they can so well recall the love that Tom had for storytelling and for children. He loved people and that always came through so very very well, entrusted by his constituents. I can remember one very diff icult meeting in Snow Lake in 19 76, while I was Min ister of Mun icipal Affairs. We were try ing to convince very dubious residents of Snow Lake that it would be better to move from a system of an Advisory Cou ncil in local government to one of a duly elected Muni cipal Govern ment. There was a lot of hesitation.

In fact, on the part of some, there was some deg ree of hostility to the idea. I remember speakin g to the issue, but it was when Tom Barrow spoke that swayed the audience of some 15 0- 200 residents of Snow Lake that the move would be a good move for the people of Snow Lake. Why was he able to do that? Because people tru.sted Tom Barrow. They knew he was honest. They kn ew that Tom called the shots as they were and that he wouldn' t mislead them.

Tom Barrow is remembered in our Caucus very 3541 much for his untiring work as Whip over the years and we all know how diffi cult it is for a Whi p to carry on one's responsibilities. Tom certainly demonstrated great patience, great endurance, in ensuring that we were there when we were supposed to be and we voted as we were to vote. Even when he was suffering some pai n, he continued on with those duties and those kind of responsibilities. Therefore, Mr .

Deputy Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Me mber for Flin Flon, that this House convey to the family of the late Tho mas Aiden Barrow, who served as a Member of the Legislative Assembly of Man itoba, its sincere sym pat hy in their bereavement and its appreciation of his devotion to a duty in a useful life of active community and public service and that Mr . Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this motion to the family. MR. ACTING DEPUT Y SPEAKER: The Member for Flin Flon. MR. J. STORIE: Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

It is indeed a privi lege and an honour to be able to rise on this solemn occasion to support this Motion of Condo lence and pay tribute to the late Tom Barrow. Thomas Aidan Barrow was born on October 7, 19 16 , and he lived most of his wo rking life as a citizen of the Prov ince of Man itoba and he worked as a miner, first in Nova Scotia and subsequently in Flin Flon. Until his death on June 14 th of this year, he had served as a responsible member of the community and served in many capacities throughout his life to the betterment of individuals in the community.

He was first elected to the Legislative Assembly of Man itoba in the general election held on June 25, 19 69, as an NOP representative from the Flin Flon Constituency. He was reelected in the following gen eral elections; the first one being on June 28, 19 73, and again he was reelected in October, 19 77. It is unfortunate in many respects that Thomas Bar row did not have the time to enjoy the retirement that he so richly deserved. I said in my open ing remarks to the Legislative, in my inaugural address, that it was an honour to follow in the footsteps of a man like Tom Barrow.

I said it then and I say it with more conviction now, that he was an honourable member and a dedi cated representative. He spent 12 of his 65 short years serving the people of the Flin Flon Constitue.ncy. He spent 12 of his 65 years working, travelling and making personal sacrifi ces to do what he saw as his duty. He was a tireless defender of the rights and an encourager of the devel opment of Northern Man itoba and northern peop le. Mr . Speaker, Tom Barrow will be sadly missed by all who knew him. He will be missed by his many friends that he made during his tenure in this Legislative Assembly.

He will be missed most sadly by his family his wife Hazel, and his sons, Bob and Tom and their families. He will be missed by them because they were as dedicated to him as he was to his constituents and to tfle people of Northern Manitoba. Mr . Speaker, I will miss Tom Barrow not because I had known him for as long as many of you in this Chamber had known him, but because in the few short years that I had gotten to know him, I could see the humanness, the honesty and the down-to-earth nature

Thursday, 24 June, 1982 which made everyone who knew him like him. I would say as well there was something about the man that attracted you to him and it is certainly true that chil dren were attracted to him. I kn ow my own two young childr en, when we visited Tom and Hazel, could be found on his knee more often than not. He seemed to have an affinity for them and they certainly liked him. It is sad that they will not have the opportunity to get to know him better as they grow up in their life. I will miss him also because he won't be there to talk to and to get advice from.

He won't be there when 1 need his wisdom and his own inner strength. Mr . Speaker , it is most unfortunate that this man could not stay longert o enjoy his retirement. His pass ing will not be forgotten. He was a man of principle and he never wavered from those principles and because of that, he will be long remembered by those he served and those who knew him. I would certainly like to express my deepest sym pathy to Hazel and Tom's family. Their loss is our loss as well and we will certainly all mourn his passing. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. ACTI NG DE PUTY SPEA KER: The Leader of the Op position. HON. S.

LYON: Mr . Speaker, all members of the Pro gressive Conservative Party join with the First Minis ter and the Member for Flin Flon in expressing tribute to a man who was not only a colleague of ours -most of us in the Legislature -but a man who had become a friend to most of us on this side. As the First Min ister has said, Tom was a doughty fighter. He never left you in any doub t as to where he stood on any particular problem. He was a strong member of his party. He believed in its principles, yet he was not doctrinaire. He was a human ist.

He believed in doing things for his fellowman and he thought that th rough his membership in the New Democratic Party was the best way to accomplish that, and that was that. If you chose to disagree with him, why, you could go to the devil. That's just about the way Tom would put it. The other side of Tom was the friendly side that has been spoken of by the First Minister and by the Member for Flin Flon . He did hav e many friends on this side of the House.

I remember meeting him for the first occasion to spend time with him in the Consti tuency in Flin Flon and hearing from him the story of how his father had come from Scotland from a mining background in experience, and how Tom in turn had worked in the mines in Nova Scotia, then had come and worked in Flin Flon.

From the generational ex pe rience, he had come to have very firm views about mine safety, as the First Min ister has said, about the work ing condition of his fellowmen and so on; and how he had a responsibility, as he saw it according to his lights, to better that condit ion according to the elected responsibility that had been given to him by his fellow citizens in Flin Flon Constituency. He was a good member of the House.

He served his consituents very very well and at the same time he contributed to that spirit that sometimes is unfortu nately missing in the House of goodwill that we do have here, notwithstanding our sometimes sharp par tisan differences. Tom was able to bridge that gap and able to establish warm friendships on all sides of the House. In deed, he sat in the House when there was party representation from the Social Credit, from the Liberals, from his own party and from the Progressive Conservative Party, so he had a wide spectrum of party people that he could make friends among. We remember him fondly.

I know that many members of this Caucus tried to make contact with him from time to time as they passed through Cranberry Por tage, just to say hello. We all knew of his declining health in recent years and we knew very well, as the First Minister has pointed out, the kind of pain that he endured quite silently and without any complaint while he continued as best he could to serve his con stituents here.

There were long periods when he was not able, because of his health, to be in the House and we all understood because we knew that he was with us here in spirit and he was certainly doing everything he could for his constituents, even though he was disabled as he was by his final illness. We on this side of the House, Mr . Speaker , would join wholeh eartedly in the sentiments of expression that have been made today to Mrs. Barrow and to the members of his family. He will be missed by all in this House. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER, J. Storie: The Hono urable Member for Elmwood. 3542 MR. R. DOERN: Mr .

Speaker, in 16 years as a member of !his House, I have only spoken on one previous condolence. That was for my predecessor, Steve Peters, who was the MLA for Elmwood for the New Democratic Party. I sat in front of Tom Barrow for eight years when we were the Government of Man itoba on this side of the House and then for another four years on the other side. I think all of us remember him well. He had sort of a soft speakin g voice and a rapid delivery, curly hair and a very boyish face.

He had a personal charm which was obvious to everyone who knew him and worked with him and he was immensely popular with not only his colleagues, but our staff and our secretar ies, in particular. He had a very good sense of humour and I wish I could repeat some of the jokes that he used to tell in our Caucus and in this Chamber, but it doesn't seem to be appropriate at this time. He also had, of course, an immense physical courage which came from his days as a miner. He was not only a miner; he was a Springhill, No va Scotia miner.

He was of course a boxer and he carried himself in the manner of a former ath lete and a former boxer. I might say in that regard that on a number of occasions in this Ho use, I' ve seen some very heated words and I have seen occasions where I' ve thought some punches would be thr own . Fortunately, that never occurred; but I recall on one occasion being in Law Am.endments and some very hard words said very late at night between members of the Conservative Party and members of the New Democratic Party. Finally, the foremost among the Conservatives, big Jim Ferguson, said something to somebody on our side.

Fergie was of course a man who looked like a block of gran ite. Tom Barrow on our side, on behalf of some other colleague, said some thing back which was quite forceful. Although the

outcome of that exchan ge would have been uncer tain, nobody doubted that Tom Barrow had the cour age and the guts to execute something like that, should he be driven that far. Mr. Spe aker, he had a love of sports and a love of boxing in particular. Those who knew him know that he closely followed the sport of boxing. I myself always have and spent many a time talking to him about the heavywe ight division. His last years were very difficult, a lot of pai n and a lot of suffering.

He had to confront a very terrible th ing on one occasion when it was recommended to him by his doctor that both his legs be amputated. He declined and decided to proceed without that terrible operation. I think part of his decision was undou bt edly influenced by the fact that he was an athlete, he was a boxer and he didn't care to take that particular way out. He continued to demonstrate his courage and his inner strength in his last years in this particular House. Mr. Speaker, Tom Barrow was a qu iet man. Not every one knew him, but I think it is true to say that to know him was to love him. MR.

DE PUTY SPEAK ER: The Honou rable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr . Deputy Speaker. I had the privi lege of knowing Tom all through the period of his service in this House and I think there was one little anecdote that perh aps some members are not aware of. There used to be a fair number of rural members of the Legislative Assembly that for many many years stayed at the St. Regis Hotel. When I first came into this Legislature, I stayed there along with some 13 or 14 other members. When Tom Ba rrow was first elected in 19 69, for a short period of time Tom also stayed at the St.

Regis; so we had the privi lege on this side of the House, together with the Soc ial Credit member and some of the Li beral members, to get to know Tom a little better in the after hour portion of the Legislature than we did some of the other members of the House. Perhaps that was the reason why Tom Barrow held a particular position with many members of the Con servative caucus.

He was very forthright and straight forward and we on this side of the House were always privi leged to talk to Tom and reminisce with him at times, because you knew that wh atever you did with Tom was very honest, very forthr ight and would remain in confidence. His morals and his political allegiance were beyond reproach, and for that and his integrity in that respect, we all appreciated, as he did, for our po litical beliefs. On that basis, we could have a very warm and lasting friendship and I would like to personally associate myself with this motion before the House. MR.

DE PUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L. SHERMAN: Thank yo u, Mr . Speaker. As a member of the class of '69 who came into this Legisla tive Assembly with Tom Barrow, albeit on opposite sides of the Chamb er, I would like to add a word or 24 Jun e, 1982 two, Sir, in final salute to our friend Tom. Tom, as has been po inted out, was a man of the peop le. He was a man of the mines, a man of toil, but essentially a man of the peop le, and I think that's why everybody on both sides of the Cha mber liked him so much.

I think that the Honour able Member for Elmwood touched a note to which I wanted to refer when he made mention of the fact tha t Tom had a great sense of humour. Tom did, and I think that even he would see and desire a note of lightn ess even on such a solemn occasion as this because he earned many of his friends and his lasting friendsh ips on both sides of the House through his sense of humour and his ability to get along with everybody. Those of us who worked with him in committee, and many of us did for many long strenuous periods, came to enjoy Tom, his sense of humour and his friendship very much.

I recall one time just a few years ago when I was occupying the seat and the office that the Honour able Member for St. Boniface now occupies, and we were having some dif ficulty with the finances of the pro vince. Tom was a great worker for the Flin Flon Per sonal Care Home and desired very desperately that personal care home proceed, be built, be finished, which it now is, thank s in a large part to Tom's efforts, but at that po int in time, it was on a temporary hold, Mr. Speaker.

Tom rose in his place in the Chamb er in Question Period - he sat just back here I recall - he directed a question to the Minister of Health and he asked me if I could confi rm that somewher e back in my lineage I was related to the Sheriff of Nottingham. I caught up with Tom an hour later in the hall, Mr . Speaker. I said I' d been on the phone and I'd checked; I had no success in tracing my lineage back that far, but would he settle for a first cousin who was a state trooper in the Pennsylvania Highway Patrol.

Tom said, I knew it, I knew it; I knew you had flint in yo ur heart and he chuckled all the way down the hall. With a glint in his eye, he went off laughin g and chucklin g and we maintained that rapport that we had always had together. I think all of us who have been in the House with Tom would say the same of him. So I wanted to say from one classmate to another, hail and farewell and we shall miss Tom Barrow. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Northern Affairs. 3543 HON. J. COWAN: Thank ' you, Mr . Deputy Speaker.

Well, as the Member for Elmwood said, it's not very often that we rise in this House to speak on a Motion of Condolence. I do so today because Tom Ba rrow was not only a colleague and a friend as he was to most in this Chamb er, but he was a mentor to me. He was someone to whom I could look up to as an exam ple of a working person who brought to these Cham bers a pe rspective which is so very necessary if these Chambers are in fact going to provide the type of legislation and the type of leadership which we know we all want to do.

People talked about Tom as a boxer and I remember him speak ing not all that often in the Chamber. but when he spoke. he spoke like a boxer. I can remember him stand ing in his seat, he'd throw a few jabs and then he'd come around with a roundh ouse pu nch and

make his point and that's how Tom was. He did n't waste energy when he boxed; he didn't waste energy when he talked. He made his point; he made it well and as everyo ne kn ows, he told you exactly where he stood. I spoke to Tom in Cran berry a few months ago. We sat and we talked about the Session that was ongoing now because he still had that interest; he still cared.

We talked about the Sessions that had been in the past, the thi ngs that had happ ened and the thing s he wanted to see done; and as we talked, it became very apparent to me and to others in the room that he missed us, that he missed being here with his friends. It became apparent as well that he never forgot, and I know that he's missed by all of us and I know tha t we' ll never forget him.

During that conversation, he was telling us a story about some of the thi ngs he'd accomplished and mine safety was dear to his heart, labour relations were dear to his heart, but there were two constituency items which he was especially proud of. One was a stack at Flin Flon and he never missed an opportunity to point that out when we were in that commun ity; and the other was a straightening of the road to Flin Flon and he told us how he had that happen, because Tom was in large part responsible for that straightening of that road. He did it in typical fashion.

He had to pick up the Premier of the province at that time- Premier Schr eyer -from the airport and those of you who've been there know that it's quite some distance into the community from the airport That was when the old road was there with curves, bumps and hills and it was quite a dan gerous trip at the best of times. Tom did n't pick up Schr eyer with his own vehicle. No, he went out and he borrowed a friend's vehicle.

No w most of us would go out and borrow a new vehicle if we were going to do tha t, but Tom went out, found the rattiest old, most decrepit car that he could find that did n't have a shock absorber left on it, the tires were about to fall off, and he had Premier Schr eyer sit down to him next in that car and off they went The farther they went, the faster they went, and the faster they went, the more Premier Schr eyer looked over to him.

Final ly, Tom had made his roundh ouse punch once again and Ed said to him, "Okay, Tom, you win," and the straightening began shortly thereafter. -(I nterjection)- As the Member for Elmwood says, a TKO indeed. So I, too, am privileged to be able to stand here today and extend not only my sympathy, but I think the sympathy of all those who worked in this building and kn ew Tom, who can't be in the Cha mber with us today, extend our sympathy to his wife Hazel, whom I have come to kn ow and to honour, and to his sons Bob and Tom and to their families.

One of the first times I met Tom was in a union meeting and I think it's only fair that I use a union phr ase when speaking to this motion and that's "Well done, brother, well done." QUES TION put, MOTION carried. ORAL QUESTI ONS MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Op position. HON. S. LYON: Mr . Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister.

Sharing, as we all do in this House, the blow of the announc ement that was made yesterday by In ternational Nickel about the two-month compul sory layoff of practically all personnel located at their mine operations in Thompson and that number of course now swelling, the number of No rthern mine employees on layoff, to something in the area of 5,000 people, can the First Minister advise wha t actions he and his government are able to take in concert with the Federal Government or on their own initiative with respect to these unfortunate layoffs and wha t action, if any, can be taken to ameliorate the hardship that is obviously going to be suffered not only by those who are the direct victims of the layoff, but the business community in the Town of Thompson and all aspects of the economy of that city which will suffer from this unfortunate announcement?

MR. DEP UTY SPEA KER: The Ho nour able Fi rst Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr . Sp eaker, I thank the Leader of the Op position for this question because of the very scope of the impact that this could have on so many families in the Thompson area. A meeting was under way this morn ing between federal officials and provincial officials - I believe the meeting is still continuing - as to what steps can be undertaken in regard to minimizing some of the effects that this closure would have upon Flin Flon and Thompson and the families therein. Secondly, Mr.

Speaker, the Min ister of Labour is examining the question of the notice period pertain ing to the statutory requirement of, I believe it is 16 weeks, and to ascertain because of an interest on the part of those that would be most gravely affected, the miners and those in the Thompson business commun ity, that if a layoff must take place because of the recessionary situation, that it take place at an earlier time space than November and December because we are informed that would be the worst of time spa ces for the layoffs to take place in Thompson.

The Min ister of Labour is examining at this present time as to whether a waiver can be provided insofar as a nor mal notice period in order to permit the layoff, if indeed one is to take place, to take place at an earlier point 3544 Mr. Dep uty Speaker, thir dly, I still hope in view of the very timing of the announcement in it not to take place till November 1s t, tha t indeed the layoff will not be necessary because of the extent of time which still is to take place prior to the notice on the part of the company for the layoff in question. HON . S. LYON: Mr .

Speaker, I thank the First Min ister for that information and for the kn owledge that he conveys that his Min ister of Labour and other Mini s ters are work ing in concert with the Federal Govern ment and on their own initiative to allay as much as possible the effects of this startling announcement Mr . Speaker, I wonder if the First Min ister could give us some indication as to what conversations he or his government have had with man agement, not only of In ternational Nickel, but of the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting and indeed Sh erritt Go rdon, who are the

Thursday, 24 June, 1982 three principal mine operators in the Nort h. I know there are others and I'm not purposely leaving them out, but those three in particular, because one of the senior officers of Hudson Bay Mi ning and Smelting is reported as saying today, and we know it to be the case, that companies in the North are not only fighting to maintain their payrolls, they're fighting for their very survival.

That unfortunate state of affairs being the case, can the First Minister indicate wha t conversations he or his Ministers have had with officers of the companies to see in wha t way within reason the province can ensure that all of the resources that we have are brough t to bear in this fight for survival, which means so much not only to the economy of the North, but indeed to the whole economy of our province. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Sp eaker, first, I'm not certain as to whethe r the Minister of Mines had discussions with the lnco representatives prior to the announce memt of the layoffs or not.

It is my intention to contact the heads of lnco as well as the municipal offici als in the City of Thom pson and the union leadership in Thom pson for discussions upon the return of the Min ister of Mines, who this afternoon is in Northern Mani toba, in order to further discuss these matters. I' ve had some discussion with Hudson Bay Mi ning and Smelting person nel as to the outlook insofar as their particular mining industry is concerned not only in Manitoba, but worldwide.

They' ll be continuing meetings and discussions pertaining to that and the Minister of Mines just the other day had meetings with the Sherritt Gordon people. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Sp eake r, because of the unprecedented nature of these now-growi ng-to-be massive layoffs in the mining industry in Manitoba, and I realize that layoffs are occurring in other parts of the country as well, may I first of all assure the First Minister that he has the support and he is free to call upon any Mem bers of the Op position for any advice or any help that we can offer in the circumstance, and ask him if he has given consideration to having a joint meeting with all of the senior officers of the major mining companies operati ng in Manitoba in order that the resources of the province, such as they are, can be brought to bear as quickly as possible upon this prob lem before it slides even further.

Would he be willing to contemplate that kind of a meeting? And second, because I ask that, Sir, because secondl y his Minister of Mines and Energy has indi cated tha t there will be a meeting of the Mines Minis ters later on in the late summer, might I suggest to the First Minister, Sir, tha t something before the meeting of the Mines Minister would be necessary, and would he contemplate a rou nd-table meeting with the lead ing officers of the major mining companies to see wha t can be done to help them in these unprece dented circ umstances? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Dep uty Speaker, I believe that is quite a worthwh ile suggestion insofar as bring ing all the companies together at the same time. There have been individual meetings involving the Minister of Mines with individual companies, but I certainly will take tha t suggestion under consideration and discuss it with the Minister of Mines upon his return. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, another question to the First Minister. In view of the fact that we have now received an opinion from R.H.

Tallin, the Deputy Min ister and Legislative Counsel, with respect to the con stitutionality of the proposed tax imposed under Bill 47, The Health and Post-Secondary Education Tax Levy Act, wherein Mr. Tallin gives the opinion that in this case, "I think that the Act is valid and enforcible against ordinary residents and businesses in Mani toba, but it would not create an enforcible obligation on the Govern ment of Canada to pay the tax." In view of that opinion from Mr.

Tall in and his further opinion, of course, that it's up to the Federal Govern ment as to whethe r or not it voluntarily wishes to pay a tax which Mr.

Tallin feels is unconstitutional, could the First Mini ster give assurance to the House that he or his Minister of Financ e will be in touch immediately with the Prime Minister or with the Minister of Financ e in Ottawa to ascertain wha t the attitude of the Govern ment of Canada will be toward the payment of this tax, presuming that the Legislature chooses to impose the tax on the Federal Governm ent, and will that opinion from the Federal Governm ent be made available to this Cham ber before we're asked to give third and final readi ng to Bill 47 which is before us, I believe, for Second Readi ng today? HON.

H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I certainly won't commit myself to a meeting prior to the passage of this legislation. At some appropriate opportunity in the not too distant future, it will be discussed. Need less to say again, to the Leader of the Op position, that this levy is not different from that levy wh ich has been imposed in the Provi nce of Quebec, and the Federal Government has consented to pay the tax in the Prov ince of Quebec.

They have not challenged Quebec's right to impose the tax in the courts and we assume that indeed the same application will be provided by the Federal Government insofar as Manitoba is con cerned, as is the case in Quebec. HO N. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, can the First Minister confirm that the Pri me Minister of Canada has called a First Ministers' Conference for Wednesday, June 30th? HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes. HO N. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, will the First Minister prior to Jun e 30t h, because there is some expectation if not hope that this House may have concluded in an orderly way its business by that time, can he give the House some undertaki ng that he will enquire prior to that meeting from the Prime Minister or from the Min ister of Finance with respect to their intention con cerning Bill 47, keepi ng in mind the opinion of Mr. Tallin, which I'll table as part of the records of the House, Mr.

Speaker, and I quote from his letter of June 24th: "In several instances in similar circumstances, the Federal Government has chosen to comply volun tarily with provincial legislation even while it main tained it was not bound to do so. Presumably the Government of Canada may choose to comply with a provincial Act as though bound, even if it has no legal 3545

Thursday, 24 June, 1982 ·�� obligation to comply." Will the First Minister, in the light of this opinion from our Legislative Counsel, seek that advice and seek that assurance immediately from the Prime Minister or from the Minister of Fi nance in order tha t the House will kn ow what the exact status of federal payments will be before we are asked to pass the bill? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I do believe that if there is a concern on the part of Federal Government and it has been brough t to the attention of Mr.

MacEa chen through questions in the House, that the Federal Government would have conveyed any concerns to the Minister of Finance. To my knowledge, there has been no concern expressed to the Minister of Finance in respect to the imposition of this tax in Manitoba and if, indeed, there was to be a refusal on the part of Federal Govern ment, then that would not be a matter of them simply conveying that to the Province of Mani toba; it certainly would have to include Quebec and I say, Mr.

Speaker, if that was inde ed to be the case, they would have to consider whether the B.C., the Al berta and the On tario premium system was as well applicable. MR. DEP UTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Thompson. MR. S. ASHTON: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I have a further question for the First Minister in regard to the shut down announced by lnco yesterday.

In view of the fact that a shutdown will take place in November/December, which the First Minister indi cated is perhap s the worst time for any sh utdown; in view of the fact this is a time when the cost of living is hig hest for most people in the City of Thompson and a time when many small businesses receive their critical pre-Christmas business, I was wonderi ng if the First Minister could undertake to review the 16 -week notice period required for layoffs, particularly in view of the fact tha t both parties are willing to discuss having an earlier shutdown date, a fact that I can confirm from my own discussions with representatives of lnco and the union this morning?

HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Sp eaker, it's certainly my view that if there is a joint request to the Govern ment of the Provi nce of Manitoba to waive the 16 -week period, the Govern ment of the Provi nce of Manitoba should con cur in a joint req uest of this nature if both the union and lnco together req uest such waiving in the interest of ensuring that the impact in Thom pson will be les sened by so doing. MR. S. ASHTON: As I mentioned, Mr. Speaker, the matter is as to whethe r that offer is available.

So if tha t would. indeed, be made public to both parties, I believe they're willing to discuss the matter with each other and with the govern ment to determine whethe r some arrangement could be made for an early shut down date. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Spea ker, I certainly would undertake to the Mem ber for Thompson that a meet ing will be arranged with both parties in order to dis cuss their desires in respect to such a req uest and if 3546 there be such a joint request that we would accede same. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable First Minister. Mr. Speaker, I ask the Premier, after reading today's front page story in the Winnipeg Free Press, "Milk dumped in Rossburn fields; dumping going on up to eight weeks," and as a result of the many questions that I' ve raised in this House since the Manco plants at Rossburn and Pilot Mo und were allowed to lay off their employees and thus allow what we hear today, some 85,0 00 to 90,000 litres of milk to be dumped in farm fields, are you prepared today, Mr.

Premier, to fire or change the Minister of Co-op Develdpiiient who has turned out to be a disaster, an albatross around the necks of the dairy industries, the creameries and agriculture, our No. 1 industry in this province? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the question of dumping in Rossburn and in fact anywhere where mill< is dumped today in times of deep economic dis tress to so many families is a serious one and it being a serious one, I do not believe that we should attribute the fault for same to the wrong parties. The Minister responsible for Co-operative Development is not accountable. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr.

Sp eaker, I wo nder if the Pre mier and his govern ment recognize the unbelievable and the negative imp act and the black mark that'll be spread all across Canada today as a result of this news item and the news releases going out on radios and television and statements such as milk being dumped in Rossburn fields or cheese plants closing forces use of excess milk for fertilizer and pig feed due to the inept, idle and inactive Minister he's got sitting over there as Minister of Cd-op Development? HON. H.

PAWLEY: Ju st so there be no misunder standing, because I wouldn't want the newspaper or the reporter to be reflected upon. I don't believe tha t which the member was quoting from indeed was from an article. I think that's his own words. I don't find tha t reference. The Minister of Agriculture is prepared to make a statement in respect to this. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agric ulture. HO N. B. UR USKI: The Mem ber for Roblin-Russell. in his questions with regard to the dumping of milk, there is no doubt that at any time any food commodity that is being dumped is a regrettable situation.

The honoura ble member should well know, and probably knows, that over supply of milk in this prov ince and indeed in many provinces does occur annu ally at certain periods of production in terms of milk supply. The situ.ation in this province has been increased by the closing of those two plants with respect to the disagreement between The Manitoba Milk Market ing Board and the Management and Board of Directors of MANCO. An appeal was held to the

24 June, 1982 Natural Produ cts Marketi ng Council; both parties appeared, and the Council made its ruling insofar as the prices of milk. as they relate to the farmer's cost of production. Th ere was no change. The responsibility for diverting the milk and han dling milk in this province is under the jurisdiction of The Manitoba Mi lk Market ing Board. We are very con cerned with this. We have been very concerned with the situation with MANCO in those two plants. We have met with them on numerous occasions.

At a recent request of the new Board of Directors of MANCO. at a recent meeting. they have asked that a review be done of their operations and of the entire milk industry in this province. We are undertaking both a two-pron ged review, one is virtually complete. and tha t is with respect to the op erations of MANCO. its structure. its Board of Directors, its management and its entire operations. Th at. of course. does not settle the situation that nevertheless that milk is being dumped in the province. The milk is being skim med and the best use of it is being made tha t can be made in these circumstances.

As a result. as I say. it is very unfortunate. We are attempting. with the Board of Directors of MANCO. to resolve their problems internally and to see whether or not. as well. have an overview of the entire dairy industry in this province in co-operation with The Mi lk Marketi ng Board so that we can for the long term achieve some solution and some long-term stability in the industry in this province. MR. DE PUTY SPEAK ER: The Mem ber for Roblin Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Speake r. I have another ques tion for the Honourable First Minister. MR. DE PUTY SPEA KER: Orde r please. order please.

The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Deputy Speaker. on a matter of privilege. I think it's important insofar as not only a member of this Chamb er. the Minister of Co-ops, but also the reporter. one Alice Krueger. and I assume that's the

article the member has been reading from. I , have gone through this

article - I admit very quickly - just now. but there's no referenc e in the

article to the Minister wh atsoever. When I questioned the Mem ber for Russell, as you recall only a few moments ago, he waved again the

article at me as though it was confirm ing his earlier comment that there's some reference to an inept Minister. Unle ss due to the speed of my read ing through this article. I find no reference to the Minister of Co-operative Affairs at all. and I find ind eed that. Mr. Deputy Speaker. there ough t to be no question that the member should not only withdraw. but should apologize to the Minister of Co-operative Development for misleading this House as to this article. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Sp eaker.

I am making the charge in this House that Minis ter is inept and not doing his job and the Mem bers of this Op position are making the charge. Can you. Mr. First Minister. give me one just reason why that member over there . MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker. again to the point of privilege, and I'm not going to leave that point of privilege until we realize some determination. If. indeed. my recollection of the question and answer period cause any doubt on your part, Mr.

Deputy Spea ker. as to accuracy, I would ask you to take it under review. because it certainly was the impression that not only I shared but I believe every member on this side, that the member was reading and quoting from an

article when indeed that quote does not exist. Mr. Deputy Sp eaker. I had that very clear and dis tinct message from the member. which is misleading this Chamb er. and I ask you to make a ruling or to take the matter under review. MR. DEP UTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Virden on the same point of order. MR. H. GRAHAM: Mr. Speaker. speaking to the point of privilege raised by the Honourable First Minister. I believe the Honourable First Minister may have misin terpreted the words of the Honourable Mem ber for Roblin-R ussell.

The Honourable Mem ber for Roblin Russell made reference to a report that milk was being dumped; that's the only referenc e he made to the newspaper. The rest of wha t the honourable member said were his own remarks. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber of Mu nicipal Affairs. HON. A. ADAMS: Mr. Deputy Sp eaker. the Mem ber for Robli n-Russell has made a charge that the dump ing of milk in the province. in the Rossburn area. was because of the Minister's actions in some way or another. Mr.

Deputy Spea ker, I want to advise the honour able member that this does take place from time to time at peak periods of prod uction. I would further advise the honourable member that it happened last year in Rossburn when he was on this side of the House. -(Int erjection)- Mr. Spea ker. the Mem ber for Sturgeon Creek says, "It makes it right." It doesn't make it right. but it just makes the Mem ber for Roblin wro ng, because he was here when milk was being dumped in Rossburn last year and it happens from time to time, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Wha t is happening? The

article leaves the impres sion tha t we're dumping whole milk. It is not whole milk that's being dumped. Mr. Speaker: it's milk tha t the butterfat has been extracted therefro m: it is skim milk. The butterfat has been removed from the milk. It 's not 2 percent milk; it's skim milk. Wha t can you do? Mr. Spea ker. at this time of the year the production in Saskatc hewan is high. the pro duction in Manitoba is high; some of the milk tha t is surplus in Rossburn is being diverted to Saskatc he wan.

They have had to cut back because their produc tion is increasing, which makes it a highe r production here in Manitoba. MANCO is trying to do the best they can with the surplus production. They are removing the butterfat and there is a surplus of skim milk. Wha t can you do 3547

Thursday, 24 June, 1982 with the skim milk, Mr. Deputy Speaker? You can make whe y with it and there is very little demand for it, Mr. Speaker. There is very little demand for whey at the present time. Wha t is the other alternative, Mr. Sp eaker, if you have surplus milk? Mr. Speaker, you could have a freeze-dryi ng plant and MANCO is considering that at the present time for Winkler. But that is a very costly operation; it can't be done overnig ht. It may not even be economically feasible. Mr. Deputy Speaker.

There are thing s happening at MANCO; they are ahead in sales at the present time over last year on cheese sales. At one point in time, Mr. Deputy Sp eaker, they had intended to sell the Rossburn plant. They have changed that decision. They intend to retain it for possible reopening at a later date when the economic situation straightens out in the production of cheese in this province. Mr. Speaker, they have done a lot of work in MANCO and they are addressing the problems and we are working very closely with them and MR. DEPUT Y SPEAKER: Orde r please, order please.

On the matter of privilege raised by the Honourable First Min ister, given the advice that I have been given from some hon ourable members, I would give the Mem ber for Roblin-R ussell the opportunity to clarify his remarks. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. On the newspaper

article I quoted, "From the milk dumped in Ross burn fields, dumping could go on to eight weeks." That's the only reference I made to a newspaper article. Mr. Sp eaker, back to the business of this House, I have been asking this First Minister and this govern ment for weeks to do something about Ro ssburn. They have done noth ing for the dairy industry; they've done nothing for the co-op movement; they've done noth ing for those people that are laid off and this First Minis ter is going to allow those kind of Min isters to sit over there and look after the business of this province.

I think it's a disgrace, absolute disgrace. MR. DEP UTY SPEAK ER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I don' t kn ow whethe r or not you consider that as a question or a statement. If it's a statement. then MR. DEP UTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, it's interesting that the Minister of Agriculture decided to get into it. It's unfor tunate and I'll ask him a question. How many meetings has he had with the Dairy Pro ducers' Marke ting Board and with the MANCO peo ple, the Department of Consumer Affairs and Co-op Development?

How many meetings has he had, Mr. Speaker. and how many times has he suggested that this issue has to be resolved? -because he is mislead ing the House. Will he correct a statement that there is not dumping of milk tak ing pl ace all over Canada? Would he confirm. Mr. Speaker, that there is not milk 3548 being dumped all over the rest of Cana da; that Mani toba is the only province that is in fact taking place under his leadership as Minister of Agr iculture? Will he, in fact, confirm that? MR. DE PUTY SPEAKE R: The Honourable Attorney General. HON. R.

PENNER : On a point of order, the Mem ber for Arthur accused another member of the House of misleading the House. There has been rulings in this House, in this Session. That is an unparliame ntary expression and I would ask that he wit hdraw tha t expression. MR. DE PUTY SPEAK ER: I do find, on the Hon ourable Attorney-General's point of order, that the word "mis lead" is quoted many times in Beauchesne on page 10 9 as being an unparliamentary expression and I would ask the member to withdraw it. The Honourable Mem ber for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY : Mr.

Sp eaker, I will withdraw that statement and I would ask the Min ister of Agricul ture if, in fact. he has met with the Producers Board and he has met with MANCO, when those meeti ngs had taken place, and did he instruct those people to resolve the issue because it is a very serious nature when we see skim milk which the Honourable Mem ber for Ste. Ro se tried to say is valueless? A lot of people in this province, Mr. Speaker, have been raised on skim milk and he kno ws very well that he's not in fact telling the people what they should hear. Mr.

Sp eaker, did the Minister meet with them and did he tell them to resolve it? His review is not good enough and will he resolve the issue? MR. DEP UTY SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URU SKI: Mr. Speaker, here is the Honour able Mem ber for Arthur again voicing - at least, now confirming - wha t he would like this Minister of Agri culture to do, as he has accused me before, to have a hands on, to have the heavy hand of the Minister of Agricu lture in the Province of Man itoba; that agricul ture cannot move without the heavy hand of the state on their industry.

That's the way he would want this government to operate. Mr. Speaker. Sitting down and talk ing, Mr. Speaker, for the sake of sitting down and talking isn't good enough. It isn't good enough. I agree with the honourable member. But, Mr. Speaker, the industry has to resolve its own problems with the help of govern ment, as much as we can give it. It cannot be done by the heavy hand of government and I, Mr. Sp eaker, am not going to move in that direction, as has been suggested by the Mem ber for Arthur. I don't intend to operate in that fashion.

Maybe. the Mem ber for Art hur doesn't realize that the autho rity for milk and the distribution of milk in this province lies by a producer-operated Milk Market ing Board. We have had meetings with tha t Board; we've had correspondence with that Board. In fact. we are undertaking a review of the entire milk industry and where we go in this province as they requ est us.

Thursday, 24 June, 1982 Mr. Speaker, the problem in MANCO did not occur overnig ht; it has not happened in the last two or three months. Where has the Honourable Member for Arthur been, Mr. Sp eaker, with respect to their financial diffi culties and the situation in the milk industry? Did that happen overnight, Mr. Spea ker? It did not happen overnight. The fact of the matter is this industry and this former Minister of Agriculture, really, if anyone can accuse anyone of anyth ing, Mr.

Speaker, was his lackadaisical attitude to the whole industry in terms of milk and milk distribution in this province, because we are now faced with a crisis situation that didn't occur overnight. It occurred over the last number of years, Mr. Speake r. MR. J. DOW NEY: Mr. Speaker, is the Minister of Agri culture admitting tha t his govern ment is literally help less to help starving people, babies who need milk, people who are being laid off in this province?

Is his govern ment helpless in resolving the current condi tions of layoffs, of dumping of milk when needy chil dren could in fact drink that milk and use it, Mr. Spe aker? How much money, Mr. Sp eaker, directly to the Minister of Agricu lture, is it costing the dairy industry in the Province of Manitoba to have this very irresponsible action taki ng place under his leadership as Minister of Agriculture? HON. B. UR USKI: Mr. Speaker, the Hon ourable Mem ber for Arthur has gone a bit too far in his accusa tions. He should well remem ber that the situation that we have with milk in this province, Mr.

Spea ker, is not a new one. We went thr ough that same situation in the early '70s. We did assist MANCO with respect to their operations and the problems they were having. Mr. Speaker, if the honourable member was so con cerned, he had four years to set the dairy industry straigh t in this province. In fact, Mr. Speaker, while he stood up in this Cham ber and denied that we should go back to the separate pools in terms of milk rather than to the pooling of milk, he allowed with his blessing . MR. DEPU TY SPEAK ER: Orde r please, order please. The Honourable Minister has been asked a question.

I . believe we all look forward to the an swer. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. UR USKI: Mr. Sp eaker, I said this before and I'll say it again, it is always a regrettable situation when food is being dumped as in the case of milk. Mr. Speaker. milk has been dumped in this province at peak periods over the last number of years. Mr.

Speaker, the member for Orchard - the Mem ber for Pembina - by tho se words one could almost say the member by that description is elsewhere, but there is always a concern when food is dumped. -(l nter jection)- Well, there always is and there has been and there will be during peak periods no matter how the industry is structured in this province or any where in this country from time to time unless you have such capacity in this province, even excess capacity, to be able to handle milk in peak periods, Mr. Spea ker, to be able to handle no matter what volume there is. But, Mr.

Speaker, the question still has to be resolved with respect to that Co-operative. We have, as a result of their request, which I must say did not come for several months when we had discussions with them, a req uest for assistance. When we received a request for assistance we went ahead and set up a study with them to see how that plant can be restructured, to see how that whole operation in t::irms of Manc o can be assisted and now we are embarking to see how far with their blessing, Mr. Sp eaker, not with the heavy hand of government as the Mem ber for Arthur would like us to do. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Sp eaker, the Minister did not answer my question ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Ho nourable Minis ter of Mu nicipal Affairs on a Point of Privilege. HON. A. ADAM: Yes. Mr. Deputy Spea ker, a few moments ago the Mem ber for Arthur, the former Min ister of Agricu lture, when he was asking his question said that I had said that skim milk was valueless. I wish to indicate to you, Sir, that I did not make that state ment and I would kindly ask you to ask the Mem ber for Arthur to withdraw those com ments.

I did not make those statements and he should have more respect for the House and members of the Assembly not to try and p(Jt words in their mouth or to try and misrepres ent what they have said. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Mem ber for Turtle Mou ntain on the same Point of Privilege. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Spea ker, the Minister for Co-op Development speaks about tending to misrepresent his remarks and abusing the privilege of the House.

He kn ows that a Point of Privilege req uires that it contain a substantive motion and he has risen to inter rupt the questioning on a supposed Point of Privilege and clearly does not have one, Sir, and he should be ruled out of order. MR. SPEAK ER: The Ho nourable Mem ber for Spring field. MR. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr. Speaker, very briefly on the same Point of Privi lege, I concur with the point made by the Opp osition House Leader that the member did not move a substantive motion.

It's unfortunate that we have had Points of Privilege raised that way when, perhaps, they should be Points of Order, but we did have a Speaker's Ru ling some short time ago tha t where a member felt the kind of misrepresentation or misconstruction of his statements had occurred in the Ho use, that member should be able to ask the member who made the statement to clarify it. Sir, I think with all due respect although there may not be a Point of Privi lege, the member has every right to ask for that clarification. MR. SPEAKER: The member has clearly put his posi tion forth on the record and that should suffice.

The Honourable Mem ber for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Sp eaker, directly to the Minister 3549

Thursday, 24 Ju ne, 1982 of Agriculture, I ask him specifically how much money is it costing the dairy industry for the dumping of milk in Rossburn? HON. B. URU SKI: Mr. Speaker, I will have to contact the Mi lk Producers' Market ing Board to ascertain that advice from them. MR. SPEAK ER: The Honourable Mem ber for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Minis ter of the Environ ment. The residents of Mci vor Avenue in North Kildonan have formed a reside nts group to investigate the dangers and combat the causes of a heavy dust cover along Mci vor Avenue.

Can the Minister tell me if the province is doing any thing to help alleviate the problem of dusty streets and roads? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. HON. J. COWAN: I wish to thank the member for the question. As well, I thank him for the opportunity to prepare for the question, he having given me some notice in this regard.

The Provi nce of Manitoba, through the En vironmental Management Division, is participating in a joint federal-provincial study entitled "Road Dust Suppression in Northern and Western Cana da" which is sponsored by the three Provincial Governme nts and Environment Canada. This report consists of two self-supporting documents, the first which is entitled "R eview of Alternatives and Existi ng Practices" and describes the principles of dust forma tion, the dust of dust suppression and the effects of dust suppressants on the environ ment.

We are now participating in that study, there will be a further study following that which will be designed to assist those directly involved in dust suppression control such as the Province of Manitoba and the City of Winnipeg. We were prepared at the staff level and as well at the ministerial level to meet with the residents of the Mc ivor Avenue area to discuss this study and also their specific problems if they so wish. MR. SPEA KER: Order please. The time for Oral Ques tions having expired, Orders of the Day. The Honourable Mem ber for La Verendrye. COMM ITTEE CHANGES MR. B. BANMAN: Mr.

Speaker. a couple of cha nges on the Statutory Regu lations and Orders Com mittee. I'd like to replace the Mem ber for Tuxedo and put in the name of the Member for Fort Garry. I'd also like to substitute the Mem ber for Swan River for the Mem ber for Kirkfield Park. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Governm ent House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, before asking you to call on Orders of the Day I would also like to announce a committee change again with respect to Statutory Regu lations and Orde rs substituting the Minister for Community Services for the Mem ber for Brandon West.

I would also like to announce, Sir, that in accor dance with the Speed-up Motion adopted yesterday, there will be sittings of the House this evening, tomor row afternoon, tomorrow evening, Saturday morning and Saturday afternoon if necessary, and I' ve dis cussed this with the Op position House Leader. We' ll see what progress we're making with the business of the House. It may not be necessary to in fact hold all of those Sessions, but we' ll call them as we go along. OR DER FOR RETU RN - NO. 11 MR. DEP UTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I move, seconded by the Honourable Mem ber for La Veren drye, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing the following information: 1. The names and addresses of persons hired as inspectors under the Critical Home Repair Program since November 30, 19 81 . 2. The annual remuneration of persons hired. 3. The procedure used to recruit persons hired and the terms and conditions of their employment. MOTION presented and carried. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Govern ment House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, would you please call Second Readings on Bills No. 45, 46 and 64.

ORD ERS OF THE DAY SECO ND READIN G - GOVER NMENT BILLS BIL L NO. 45 -THE STATUTE LAW AMENDM ENT (TAXATION) ACT (1 982) HON. V. SCHROEDER presented Bill No. 45, The Sta tute Law Amendment (Taxation) Act (19 82) , for second reading. MOTION presented. 3550 MR. DEP UTY SPEAKER: The Honoura ble Minister of Finance. HO N. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Depu ty Speaker. Bill 45 is the traditional omnibus bill dealing with most of the tax chan ges announ ced in the 19 82 Manitoba Budget. However, authority for the Mani toba levy for Health and Post-Secondary Educ ation is included in a separate bill, Bill 46.

In general terms the Bill contains provision for the selective tax adjustments outlined in the Budget and I'd like to make some comments on each of the major provisions. First of all, the insurance premiums tax. The insu rance premiums tax rate on insurance other than sickness, accident and life insurance will be increased from 2 percent to 3 percent effective for the 19 82 taxation year, and will increase revenues by an esti mated $2.8 million this year. This change brings the

Manitoba rate on such insurance to the same level as Newfound land, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec and On tario. As members are aware, such levies are a deductible expense for income tax purposes for the companies involved. Thus, for national insurance companies, Ma nitobans have been bearing a portion of the costs of the higher rates in effect elsewhere through reduced provincial income tax payments by the companies here.

As well, the Quebec Minister of Finance noted in one recent Bud get, residents of provinces with lower rates actually paid part of the costs of other provinces' levies directly, since insurance rates are generally set on a national basis. Th us, the change, in addition to being modest and reasonable, will result in resolving some of these intrinsic inequities. On the capital tax. this Bill includ es provision for an increase in the special capital tax rate applicable to banks from 0.8 percent to 2 percent for taxation years ending between July I, 19 82 and June 30, 19 83.

In our view, the proposed special rate will ensure a fairer contribution from the banking community to the costs of public services in Manitoba. The banking community declared provincial income tax payable of $2.2 million to Manitoba for the 19 81 taxation year. This represents a decrease from 19 77 when they declared $3.8 million in provincial income tax payments. In constant dollar terms, the 19 77 pay ment translates into about $5.2 million in 19 81 dollars. Thus, in constant dollars, the banking community is estimating its 19 81 Manitoba In come Tax payments to be about $3 million less than in 19 77.

The increase in revenues arising from the special capital tax rate esti mated at $2. 6 million will bring the banks' contribution to Manitoba more in line with their 19 77 contributions. It is our intention to review the application of this special rate prior to the 19 83 Manitoba Bud get. That review will, of course, take into account the report of the parliamentary committee currently investigating bank profits. Technical changes in the definition of the tax base for banks to agree with recent amendmen ts to The Bank Act of Canada are also incorporated in the Bill.

The chan ges do not affect the base itself, but simply bring the corporation capital tax wording into accord with The Bank Act wording. The Bill also proposes a one-third increase in the small business exemption allowed under The Corpo ration Capital Tax Act from $750,000 to $1 million, effective for taxation years ending after June 30, 19 82. Small businesses are expected to save an estimated $400,000 annually as a result of this provision and capital tax liabilities will be eliminated for approxi mately 300 small Manitoba enterprises. Ne xt comes the fuel levies.

As members are aware. prior to 19 80 Manitoba, like most provinces, applied a higher tax rate to diesel fuel than to gasoline in recog nition of the highe r energy content of diesel fuel. The Bill proposes to reinstitute this differential to ensure that comparable taxation levels apply to both fuels. As a result, the price of diesel fuel is set at 115 percent of the average price of gasoline for purposes of estab lishing the tax rate. The effect of this change is to increase the diesel fuel tax rate from 5. 7 cents a litre to 7.3 cents a litre, effective June 1, 19 82.

With the 24 June, 1982 increase, the Manitoba rate ran ks seventh in Canada. As well, the litre rates will be frozen at the June 1, 19 82 levels for the remainder of this fiscal year. in contrast with the ad valorem system in effect in other provin ces, which entails automatic increases in litreage rates each time the retail price of the product increases. Manitoba's favourable competitive position therefore will be preserved. The Bill also includ es comparable increases for off highw ay uses and diesel locomotive fuel, effective June 1, 19 82.

Un der The Gasoline Tax Act, the gasohol exemp tion will be set at four cents per litre effective Sep tember 1, 19 82. This change restores the gasohol preference to the same level provided in 19 80 and was proposed after consultations with the industry. Mani toba remains the only province to provide such signif icant preferential treatment for gasohol. Manitoba's general gasoline tax rate of 6.4 cents per litre also ranks seventh among the provinces. Our govern ment proposes not to increase the litreage rate automati cally under the ad valorem system for the remainder of this fiscal year.

In revenue terms, the diesel fuel tax adjustments are exp ected to increase revenues by $6.5 million this year, while the limitation on the gaso hol exemption is expected to increase revenues by an additional $500, 000.00. In contrast, the freeze on gasoline and diesel fuel taxes is expected to reduce revenues by $7.1 million. Thus, the combined effect of the chan ges proposed for this year is a net revenue reduction of $1 00,000.00. As members know, the Saskatchewan Govern ment abolished its fuel taxes on May 9th, two days prior to the 19 82 Manitoba Budg et.

Our govern ment was con scious of the potential difficulties that the abolition of those taxes could have for the Manitoba retail fuel dealers. Accordi ngly, the bill proposes action on two fronts to protect the competitive position of Manitoba retail dealers. 3551 First. as I announced on May 14 th, our govern ment will provide competition assistance grants to Mani toba retailers who were selling fuel within a distance of 60 kilo metres from the nearest Saskatchewan com petitor.

These grants involved assistance equal to 10 0 percent of the Manitoba taxes in the case of op erators in the same community with Saskatchewan competi tion, as is the case in Flin Flon, ranging downwards to 25 percent of the Manitoba tax in the case of service stations operating between 40 and 60 kilometres from the nearest Saskatchewan competition. Secondly, a number of regulatory and enforcement amend ments are included to discourage persons from importing bulk fuels into Manitoba without pay ing the tax imposed under The Gasoline and Motor Fuel Tax Acts.

In essence, these provisions are intended to discourage a few dealers who might oth erwise attempt to acquire bulk fuel in Saskatchewan and import it into Manitoba without paying Manitoba tax, thereby undermining the competitive position of legitimate Manitoba dealers who report provincial taxes on the product they sell. The next change is with respect to mining taxes and administrative chan ges proposed to provide addi tional flexibility in the issuing of assessments under the two mining tax Statutes. Then there's a chang e with respect to tobacco tax.

Thursday, 24 June, 1982 Un der The Tobacco Tax Act, the tax rate applicable to cigarettes is increased from 1. 4 cents per cigarette to 1. 8 cents per cigarette effective May 30th, 19 82, with comparable increases applicable to other tobacco products, for an increase in revenues of $7.5 million for this fiscal year. Prior to the Budget, the tobacco tax applicable to cigars averaged 45 percent of the pretax retail price, to a maximum tax of 25 cents applicable to cigars retail ing at more than 48 cents, exc lusive of tax.

As a result, the tax applicable to more expensive cigars repre sented a decreasing percentage of the retail price. In response to this problem our govern ment proposed to align taxation of more expensive cigars in Manitoba with the rates currently applicable in Br itish Columbia which involved a 55 percent tax rate on more expen sive cigars. However, in light of representations from tobacco retailers, I will be proposing an amendme nt to this provision at the Committee stage, with a view to extending the effective 45 percent tax rate applicable to cigars under 48 cents, to the most expens ive cigars.

For administrative reasons and ease of taxpa yer com pliance, we are also proposing an upper limit on the tax of $1.15 on cigars retailing at a pretax price of $2.25. The previous upper limit was a 25-cent per cigar tax. Sales tax changes. The Bill proposes a number of change s in the sales tax. First, the restaurant meal exemption will be increased by 50 percent, from $4.00 to $6.00. This measure is expected to reduce annual revenues by about $1.4 million.

Othe r change s include extending the exemption for fire trucks and related equipment to all purchasers; extending the exemption for wood used for heating purposes, to all users; broadening the sales tax refund provision on transactions involving high way veh icles and clarifying the application of the sales tax to adver tising broch ures, sample products and giveaways. This latter change is largely intended to protect the sales tax base by eliminating any uncertainty with respect to its application to such items. The clarifica tion is requ ired in light of recent judicial decisions in other provinces.

A number of change s have been made by reg ula tion. These include an increase in commissions paya ble, designed to assist small vendors under the sales tax, and the broadening of the exemption for thermal insulation materials to include insulated doors and loading dock door seals. In come taxat ion. We have decided to implement a surtax on high er incomes effective with the 19 82 taxa tion year. That will raise $16.2 million, approximately, this year. As members are aware, Man itoba's personal income tax is levied at a flat percentage of basic fed eral tax.

The federal tax rate has been change d and that has had the effect of reducing the maximum combined federal and provincial marginal income tax rate from 66.22 percent in 19 81 to 52 .36 percent in 19 82. At most, the Man itoba surtax will add 3.672 percent to the top marginal inc ome tax rate. As a result, the maximum marginal income tax rate in Man itoba will be 56.032 percent but will remain lower than 19 81 when. again, it was at 66.22 percent.

In our view the surtax will result in high income Man itobans paying a fairer share of the required additional revenues and thereby improve the overall fairness of Manitoba's tax structure. The second major income tax change proposed is a 9.1 percent reduction in the small business corpora tion income tax rate from 11 percent to 1 O percent and that's at a cost of $3.5 million and is intended to pro vide additional support to Man itoba enterprises.

The third change is intended to fulfil! our govern ment's election commitment to provide farmers with rebates of the provincial income tax arising from elig ible, taxable, capital gains. The maximum eligible tax able capital gain will be $1 00,000 in Man itoba, imply ing a total capital gain of $200,000 compared with the current Saskatchewan maximum eligible capital gain of $1 00,000 or a taxable capital gain of $50,000.00. The measure is effective on all land disp ositions after December 31s t, 19 81 and involves potential benefits to Manitoba farmers in the order of $1 million annually.

In addition, a number of housekeeping amend ments are proposed. The most important of the housekeeping amendments is the broadening of the benefits of the small business corporation income tax rate for credit unions to include income eligible for the reduced federal rate under

Section 13 7( 3) of The In come Tax Act (Cana da). The next item is Pensioners School Tax Assistance measures. We have previously announced those mea sures. Those are the more significant change s pro posed in this bill. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Turtle Mo untain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, just a question on order to the Minister of Finance.

I wonder if he would be prepared to make his detailed notes available to us and perhaps if he has any more detailed notes on the separate clauses of the bill, we might have an op por tunity to study those prior to the bill being considered in the Committee as a Whole later on. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Yes, I would certainly agree to make the speaking notes available and that might shorten my next one and, as well, I'll take a look through the other material. I don't see any reason why I shouldn't be able to provide that to the members as well. 3552 MR. B.

RANSOM: I move, seconded by the Mem ber for Morr is, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. HON. R. PENNER: Call Bill 46, Mr. Speaker. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: Call Bill No. 46. The Hon ourable Minister of Finance. BIL L NO. 46 -THE HEAL TH AND POST SECOND ARY EDU CATION LEVY ACT HON. V. SCHROEDER presented Bill No. 46, The Health and Post Secondary Education Levy Act, for second read ing.

Thur sday, 24 June, 1982 MOTI ON presented. MR. DEPU TY SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I would point out that members are already well acquainted with the circumstances which gave rise to the levy -(I nterjection)- That's righ t, we needed the money. It's as simple as that. I don't think that one could get a better explan ation than that. So that elimi nates three pages of my speak ing notes. But I do have that material available and I'm sure that members of the Opp osition will be read ing it over most carefully again.

I should, in fact, make some comments with respect to the enforcement provisions which some individuals have recently commented on - I don' t think anyone in the House has - because I'm sure that people here probably have compared those provisions with other Acts of the Legislature, including The Sales Tax Act and The In come Tax Act and a variety of other Acts. I would like to make a few comments on that issue and assure all honourable members that enforce ment provisions included in the proposed legislation are patterned after the provisions in other provincial taxa tion Statutes.

In fact, most of the provisions are con tained in the majority of Manitoba's taxation Statutes and are also similar to those in place under the taxa tion Statutes of other provinces. In the same vein, the provisions are quite similar to those included in The In come Tax Acts of the Federal Govern ment as well, as I said previously, the Provin cial Government. I'm sure that will alleviate some con cerns that might have been out there on the other side of the House. I think those are the comments that I will make on introduction. I will make the speaking notes available to members opposite. MR.

DE PUTY SPEA KER: The Honourable Mem ber for Turtle Mo untain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Mem ber for Morris, that debate be adjourned. MOTION presented and carried. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: Call Bill No. 64,

An Act to Amend The Elections Act. Bill NO. 64 -THE ELECTIONS ACT HON. R. PENNER presented Bill No. 64,

An Act to amend The Elections Act. Loi mod ifiant la Loi electo rale, for second read ing. MOTION presented. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney General. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker. as members will have seen in read ing the bill, it's an amendment which is just consequential on The Legislative Assembly Man agement Comm ission Act and just proposes a change where The Elections Act, I thi nk, mentions the Board of In ternal Economy to replace it with a reference to The Legislative Assembly Management Comm ission Act. That's all there is to that bill.

I haven't got a copy of the bill in front of me, but that's all there is to it. MR. DE PUTY SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Virden. MR. H. GR AHAM: Mr. Sp eake r, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Mem ber for Turtle Mountain, that debate be adjourned. MOTI ON presented and carried. MR. DE PUTY SPEAK ER: The Honourable Govern ment House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, would you please call the adjourned debates and second read ing firstly on Bill No. 23? ADJOURNED DEBATES ON SECOND READING Bil l NO. 23 -THE LEGAL AID SERVICES SOCIETY OF MANITOBA ACT 3553 MR.

DE PUTY SPEAKER: Adjou rned debate on Bill No. 23. The motion stands in the name of the Honour able Attorney General. The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, I'm rising to con clude debate on the second reading on Bill 23. Mr. Speaker. I feel it necessary to address some of the concerns which members opposite have raised with respect to Bill 23, being

An Act to amend The Legal Aid Services Soc iety Act of Man itoba. Listening as I did very carefully and rereading speeches of the members opposite, I believe there has been quite clearly a misapprehension or misunder standing of the bill itself. I believe moreover that there's been a misunderstanding. at least, of the con cept which the bill addresses, namely, the notion of public interest advocacy. Mr. Speaker, all this bill seeks to do is to reg ularize wha t has been the practice for 1 O years.

Legal Aid Manitoba came into existence in February of 19 72 and, in fact, began to deliver services in the fall of 19 72 - it will be celebrating its '10 th anniversary this year - and throu gh four govern ments, two under former Premier Schreyer, one under the now Leader of the Opp osition and again under this governm ent, the board of Legal Aid has in fact been issuing certificates to groups so that the bill is not initiating something new. The bill is not authorizing some significant departure.

One would have hoped when addressing fairly significant matters of public policy that the members opposite would have taken the time to find out what, indeed, the facts of the situation were. The fact of the situation was and is that Legal Aid, as I say, has been giving out such certificates but the last board, the board that was headed by now Provincial Court Ju dge Frank Allen and appointed by the last government, while issuing such certificates raised some questions as to whether or not the Act was clear

Thursday, 24 June, 1982 enough as to the authority of the board to do it. So the bill is brough t in to make it clear that the board has such authority. The Mem ber for Virden, in his remarks on the bill, raised the following question. Well, he said, Mr. Speaker, and I'm looking at Hansard for Wednesday, the 2nd of Ju ne. 19 82, "The more I look at the bill, the more concerned I become about the intention of the Attorney-General when he brought this in." Well, I hope I' ve clarified that.

"I know his history of intimate relationship with Legal Aid," - well, a close relation ship rather than intimate -"I know his activities in the start-up of Legal Aid," - indeed, Sir, I was the first Chairperson of Legal Aid and continued to be so through till 19 78 when I resig ned. "I know his activities in the start-up of Legal Aid in this province.

I would like to ask the Attor ney-General if his intentions were as strong at the very start of Legal Aid to fund certain groups in society for public legal activity or has that belief grown later on?" And I can say categorically that the Legal Aid plan in the Provi nce of Manitoba was specifically desig ned to provide wha t is called "Community Legal Services." When the task force went out to look at various models of Legal Aid, The English Legal Aid Act as administered by the Law Society in England, the examples in the United States and the example of the first modern Legal Aid Statute in Canada and On tario, it came in with a strong recommendation that while we do have wha t is called a judicare component, that is, regular legal services required by individuals deli vered by members in the private bar, it also provides community legal services.

So this is not something new. This is something that has been an int egral part of Legal Aid Manitoba from the beginning and, in fact, this juxtaposition or com bination of wha t is called judicare, the On tario and En glish model, with community legal services devel op ed particu larly from 19 64 in the United States dur ing the war on poverty, this mix has now become virtually pervasive through out Canada, spoken of as the Cana dian model and it was started here in Manitoba. When I spoke about history I want to tell the House, Mr.

Speaker, which groups and for wha t causes or purposes have received group Legal Aid certificates. This should have been known to the members oppo site, it should have been known to the former Attorney General, it should have been known to the Leader of the Op position. A certificate was granted to the Society of Seniors with respect to gas rate increases and they were partly successful in having the Public Utility Board modify the application of the gas utility at that time.

A certificate was given to the Associated Tenants Action Com mittee with respect to hydro rates - and I'm going to amplify that exa mple shortly - a certificate was given to the Health Action Com mittee with respect to milk prices. A certificate was given to the Anti-Sniff Coalition to make representations to the City of Winnipeg and to the province on the very difficult question of glue sniffing.

A certificate was given to Rossbrook House with res pect to the Sherbrook-McGr egor Overpass and that was given during the last administration by the board appointed by the then govern ment and the Leader of the Opp osi- tion and the Mem ber for Lakeside couldn't even remember the name of it. A certificate, most recently, was given to the Logan Com munity Com mittee on the Core Ex propriation. Now, what is the significance?

These are the exam ples of certificates which actually have been given out during the history of Legal Aid, a history which should have been and was in fact available to the members op posite. There are five points I want to make about these examp les. First of all, I give these examples to answer what, I think, must be categorically said to be the miserable attempts to scandalize the concept, particularly by the Leader of the Op position. Wha t example could he think of? Pornography - he's talked as hyp oth etical about giving a certificate to a group to promote por nography. Wha t occupies his mind?

Wha t or;cupies his mind is a question of public interest? Could he not have gone to see the actual examp les of groups con cerned about hydro rates, about gas rates, about milk prices, about kids sniffing glue? No, he had to come up with the ex ample of a group to promote pornography.

Secondly, I give the examples of what has actually taken place -we should deal with reality from time to time - to show the range of interests which are intended to be encompassed and to show that you cannot confine, or ough t not to confine, the way in which such certificates are given purely to consumer and environ mental groups, because you will see.

Take for example the certificate given to Ross brook House. with respect to the Sherbrook-McGre gor Overpass, you cannot neatly pigeonh ole some of these matters or the certficate given with respect to the problem of glue sniffing, you cannot neatly categorize public interest matters in that way. The third reason why I give the exa mples is to show the effectiveness of such group certificates.

When the Tenants Action Com mittee was given a certificate with respect to hydro rates, and the Leader of the Op position should have remembered this, they were successful in effect because it was the first time histor ically that some countervailing evidence and opinions had been brough t before the Public Utilities Board. They were successful in reducing the effect of the rate application by $1 1 million. The consumers of Mani toba were saved $1 1 million by the activities of that group, given a certificate by Legal Aid and, ind eed, -(I nterjection)- Well, you were in office.

You should have known this, and in fact the activities of that group and the evidence that they brough t forward led to the then govern ment, under the now Leader of the Opp o sition, bringing in the rate freeze. Again, in terms of effectiveness, the work that was done by Rossbrook House with respect to the Sherbrook-McGregor Overpass led to that very ques tionable, or at least questionable proposition being withdrawn so that one could in some perspective look at the whole question of rail relocation.

Again with respect to the latest group certificate given; namely, to the Log an group, the Logan area residents; the story was in Saturday's paper - not referred to when the y talke d about pornogra phy - but it was a Legal Aid certificate plus other resources given to a group of citizens who otherwise were not represented, who otherwise would have been disenfranchised effec- 3554

lively, led to a substantial victory for a group of con cerned citizens to protect their neighbourhood. Why couldn' t th ose exam ples have been though t of by the members opposite when they chose to discuss this matter? Fourthly, Mr. Deputy Speak er, I bring these exam ples to show the general importance of such advocacy in society. In expand ing what I mean by the effective ness of such advocacy, I would like to put it in context particularly with respect to wha t happ ened in Logan. Mr. Dep uty Speaker, the then govern ment, un der the now Leader of the Opp osition, waived a public enquiry.

They prevented effectively the citizens of the affected areas from being able to bring forward concerns about the future of their communities. They actually disenfranch ised them completely by a waiver of enq uiry. Th at was the effect of the action taken by an Order-in-Council -(I nterjection)- I' ve done the research, that's exactly wha t happ ened.

Section 9 of The Exprop riation Act, which req uires the Lieutenant Governo r-in-Council to dispense with an enquiry, was passed in May of last year by that govern ment and it was only the notion th at's accepted fully on this side of the Ho use tha t citizens have a right to be heard and be represented, which led to the Commission of Enq uiry and to representation being given to that group. No w also, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, the example of Logan and the other examples I' ve used represent something else that is very important; namely, the multiplicity of interests that are pervasive thr oughout society and not the least of which is the interests of the resident s or the consumers affected by one policy or another, one rate proposal or another. Finally, I think these examp les demonstrate, given the fact that there are a multiplicity of interests, that the view of the Leader of the Oppo sition th at there's some kind of unitary or monolithic public interest, there is one public interest, is totally wrong. In fact, MR.

DE PUTY SPEA KER, H. Har apiak: Point of Order. The Memb er for Virden. MR. H. GR AHAM: I raise a matter of order. If the · Honourable Attorney-General would speak into the microp hone, we might be able to hear him, but when he turns his back on us, it's difficult to hear. MR. DE PUT Y SPEAKER: Thank you for that infor mation. The Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER : The Leader of the Opp osition proposed - which shows a somewhat distorted con cept of how public policy is formed -that it was wrong to think of there being any adversarial character about representations about such things.

Clearly, wha t he was propounding was the big brother notion. He was talking in the language of 19 84. He was saying, we somehow in this House, in fa'ct were the words, we kn ow wha t is best for the public, we have the Public Utility Board, we will ide ntify public interest, we don't have to hear from these funny little groups, and that is totally wrong.

The Logan experience, the experience on Hydro rates. the experience on gas rates shows 1982 that in a pluralistic society there are varying interests and it's in the clash of these interests, which is not wrong, it's good, it's in the clash of these interests, when they can be heard, that something emerges to help form public policy in a better way. No w, as I say there is represented in the speeches of the members opposite, I think, a complete misconcep tion of this basic issue of public interest advocacy and how it fits into the formation and formulation of public policy.

There fortuitously has just appeared in the last issue of the Cana dian Bar Review, which is dated March, 19 82, a lengthy

article on financing public participa tion in environ mental decision-making. It's a 40-page analysis of this field. I'm just going to refer to it very very briefly from time to time. Mr.

Deputy Spea ker, as long ago as 19 54 analysts recognized that the natural consequence of the mas sive planning by municipalities and by govern ments, of the massive industry regulation by administrative agencies, tha t in tha t context, in the absence of coun tervailing views, the decisions of such agencies would reflect the views of public interest that essentially were asserted by the regulated parties; that is, the regulated parties, let's say, a gas utility or a hydro utility, would in effect capture as it were the regulating agency.

The regulating agency would defer to this public utility or that utility because that was the only evidence they were hearing. The ph enomenon of wha t has been called capture and deference was well known. The problem of wha t has been called the empty environmentalist chair; that is, at such hearings there is no one to represent those affected by the smokestack or the emission or wh atever it is, is simply that govern mental agencies rarely respond to inter ests that are not represented in their proceedings. How could they?

The mere setting up by government s of reg ulatory agencies is contrary to wha t the Leader of the Op position was saying, insufficient to protect the public interest. Let me quote from that article: "In those cases where protest has been organized within the neigh bourhood, there is no funding to enable the residents to oppose the experts; to oppose the high -priced engineers; to oppose the real estate dealers. The govern ment, in effect, has all the power on its side when it's a govern ment regulatory agency.

It sets up a public hearing format" -and this is wha t the Leader of the Op position was propounding when he spoke about the virtues of the Public Uti lities Board -"It sets up a public hearing format and says, now look, here you are, a fair deal, a public hearing. We're going to hear from both sides and deliver our verdict on the merits." That is exactly what the Roman Emperors used to say to Christians when they invited them into the lion's den. On e lion, one Ch ristian and may the best lion win. That's exactly the kind of thing that was suggested by the Leader of the Op position.

In fact, that ki nd of view represents much of wha t might be said about him, having refused, in effect, to look at the history of public interest advocacy, he is in effect an ideological caveman. He sits with his back to the fire and watches the flickeri ng on the cave wall and imagines that that's the sum total of reality. He refuses to look at the light. He refuses to look at experience other than that which takes place in his 3555

Thursday, 24 Jun e, 1982 mind. He thi nks of public interest advocacy and what jumps to his attention, pornography. Wha t are the benefits, Sir, which accrue from incr eased public par ticipation? I think it's important to identify them because I think we' ll be hearing more about the issue of public interest advocacy in this House from time to time. In creased public participation provides decision makers with a greater range of ideas and information on which to base their decision. Take the Logan example.

I just want to show the members of the House who may not have seen it, the kind of data that was produced by the Logan residents with the help of experts, to identify much more than the city planners had done - in fact they had done virtually nothi ng - wha t the neighb ourhood really looked like, wha t it could look· like, wha t kind of mix there could be of light industry and residential areas surrounding it, that kind of input is wha t can be done when citizen groups are represented and properly supported. Wha t other benefit accrues?

It enhanc es, Sir, public acceptance of administrative decisions, because if the public has been represented rather than excluded, then they say, "W ell, okay, we were part of the decision-making process." Thirdly, Sir, incr eased public participation requires the agency or administrative body to be more tho rough in its analysis and it requires the agency to articulate more clearly and precisely the reasons for their decisions.

In tact, one of the best examples we've had national ly of the effectiveness of citizen participa tion at a high level was in the Mackenzie Valley Pipe line In quiry, and I commend that example to the members op posite for their consideration. Having said that, this leads me, Sir, to the kind of criteria we would expect when we move very broadly to the general question of public interest advocacy. I think these are the criteria which one would want to establish over time, that there should be a clearly ascertainable interest that ought to be represented at the inq uiry.

It should be clear that separate and ade quate representation of that interest will make a necessary and substantial contribution to the inquiry. Those seeking funds should have an established record of concern and should have demonstrated their own commitment to the interests they seek to represent. It should be shown that those seeking funds do not have sufficient financial resources to enable them adeq uately to represent the interests and tha t they will require funds or representation to do so.

Finally, as one of the criteria, those seeking funds should have a clear proposal as to the use the y intend to make of the funds and the representation and should be sufficiently well organized to account for the funds. And ind eed, on that last point, when certifi cates were granted on two separate occasions to the Associated Tenants Action Com mittee, Legal Aid assisted that group to be incorporated so that it could have an appropriate structure for accountability and representation.

There has developed in the last few years the notion of what is called, "The Public Int erest Advocacy Cen tre." One has recently been established in B.C. There are Public Int erest Advocacy Centres in Ottawa and Toronto. Ther e is a Public In terest Advocacy Centre nationally in Ottawa as well.

The goals of such public interest advocacy centres are to back groups before boards where the decisions affect the nature and qual ity of life; to promote, protect and preserve the envir on mental and natural resources; to promote law reform through test case litigation, through research, through brief writing; to provide advocacy training to assist citizens to be able to represent themselves. These are marvelous goals and they ough t to be encouraged. Here, the approach that had been taken is far far more modest than that.

I was approached shortly after taking office with a proposal, a request that there should be government funding of an independent Public In terest Advocacy Centre and I think the notion essentially is a very good one, but these are times of restraint and tha t kind of money was just not available. So Legal Aid was asked to establish within its infrastructure a Public Int erest Advocacy Office, because they were already paying rent and they have the staff and so on. Second ly, this Bill is brought in to regularize what in fact has been done for 1 O years, so tha t is a very modest proposal indeed.

There was an alternative suggested by the Leader of the Op position and he referred me and the House to

Section 34 of The Public Util ities Ac

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-1-83a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 1st hansardpdf 83a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	237a508e311d672892019ea2d65ab891da6da64f

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