Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 33 (35th Legislature, 3rd Session)

35-3-33

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Third Session • Thlrty·Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 39-40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocsn Spesker VOL. XLI No. 33 ·1:30 p.m., THURSDAY, MARCH 19,1992 Printed by the Offlc9 of the OU68ns Printer. Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Pol itical Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON , Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard , Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Nell GIL LESHAM MER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HE LWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY,Jim MANNESS, Clayton , Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciN TOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rose mary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage Ia Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblln-Rus sell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. Norbert Elmwood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Ain Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP Liberal NDP PC PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC NDP PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

1415 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, March 19,1992 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I beg to present the petition of E.V. Schneiderat, L. Andree, Cameron Bonham and others requesting the Minis ter of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code to prevent the release of individuals where there is substantial likelihood of further family violence . Mr.

Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): I beg to present the petition of James Forsm an, Brenda Perry, Stephen McBride and others requesting that gove rnment show a strong com mitment to dealing with child abuse by considering resto ring the Rght Back Against Child Abuse campaign. Mr.

Elijah Harper (Rupertsland): I beg to present the petition of Robert Rae, John Duck, Stewart Cook and ot hers requesting the gove rnment show its strong comm itment to abori ginal self-govern ment by considering reversing its position on the AJI by su ppor ting the recom men dations within its jur isdiction and implementing a separate and parallel justice syst em. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the pro vince of Manitoba humbly shewe th: THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society , but nonetheless it exists in today's world ; and It is the responsibility of the gove rnment to recognize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and Prog rams like the Fight Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with crime; and The decision to terminate the Rght Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.

WHEREFORE yo ur petitioners humbly pray that the legislature of the pro vince of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the gove rnment of Manitoba show a strong commitment to deal with Child Abuse by considering rest oring the Rght Back Against Child Abuse campaign. (Ms. Barrett) I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and com plies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read ?

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the pro vince of Manitoba humbly sheweth : THAT child abuse is a crime abhorred by all good citizens of our society, but nonetheless it exists in today's world ; and It is the responsibility of the government to recognize and deal with this most vicious of crimes; and Prog rams like the Rght Back Against Child Abuse campaign raise public awareness and necessary funds to deal with crime; and The decision to terminate the Rght Back Against Child Abuse campaign will hamper the efforts of all good citizens to help abused children.

WHEREFORE your petitio ners humbly pray that the legislature of the pro vince of Manitoba may be pleased to request that the gov ernment of Manitoba show a strong commitment to deal with Child Abuse by considering resto ring the Rght Back Against Child Abuse campaign. (Mr. Hickes) *** I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member, and it complies with the privileges and practices of the House and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read?

14 16 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 19 , 19 92 The petition of the undersigned citizens of the pro vince of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT the bail review provisions in the Criminal Code of Canada currently set out that accused off enders, including those suspected of conjugal or family violence, be released unless it can be proven that the individual is a danger to society at large or it is likely that the accused person will not reappear in court; and The problem of con jugal and family violence is a matter of grave concern for all Canadians and requires a multifaceted approach to ensure that those at risk, particularly women and children, be protected from further harm .

WHEREFORE you r petitioners humbly pray that the Legislature of the pro vince of Manitoba may be pleased to req uest that the Minister of Justice (Mr. McCrae) call upon the Parliament of Canada to amend the Criminal Code of Canada to permit the courts to prevent the release of individuals where it is shown that there is a substantial likelihood of fur ther conj ugal or fam ily violenc e being perpetrated. (Ms. Cerilli) • (1 335) Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have with us this afternoon, from the Oakenwald School, twenty-eight Grade 5 students, and they are under the direction of Mary-Ann Mitchler. This school is located in the constitu ency of the honourable Minister of Education and Training (Mrs. Vodr ey). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Tourism Statistics Decline Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition}: Mr.

Speaker, revenues in the last pro vincial budget presented in this Chamber and being debated daily are basically flat right throu ghout the gov ernment budget. One of the issues dealing with revenue in Manitoba, of course, is our tourism industry. It is a billion-dollar industry in this pro vince. It employs a number of people throughout the service sector and other sectors in our economy and is generally one of the growing industries of the wor ld. Mr. Speaker, we have reviewed recent statistics and have been monitoring the situation.

The decline in tou rism from other countries in Manitoba right now stands at 14 .5 percent. I would ask the Premier (Mr. Filmon): Why are we having this kind of decline in Manitoba over the last year? How many jobs have been lost with this decline in tourism activity in the pro vince? I would ask the Premier that question as Chair of the Econ omic Committee of Cabinet. Hon. Eric Stefanson (Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism}: Mr. Speaker, I should point out to the honourable member that U.S. visitations for most Canadian provinces are in fact down in 199 1.

Several reasons have affected that which I do not think I need to go into today. More importa ntly, we are addressing specific aspects of our 19 92 campaign that we feel will improve the attractions for U.S. visitations. I should point out to the honourable member that in terms of our tourism trade, approximately 80 percent of our visitations com e from either Manitobans or other Canadians, primarily from northwestern Ontario and from Saskatchewan.

If you check the statistics in those areas, they have actually gained slightly, and the indications are that certainly as many, if not more Manitoban s, are conti nuing to take their holidays right here in our pro vince, recognizing all of the attractions ai'ld facilities that we have right here in our pro vince. The 80 percent, the solid core of our to urism industry, is in fact being maintained and in fact growing somewhat. We will address the situation in the United States. We are not unique in that because of som e ofthe facto rs, our higher Canadian dollar, some of the other factors that came into play.

We have a plan in place for 19 92, and we anticipate a better performance in 199 2. Thank you . Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, the minister indicates that Manitoba is not unique. Yes, Manitoba is very unique in terms of these tourism numbers. There is no other pro vince that has suffered more of a decline than 5 percent from all other countries. Manitoba has three times the decline of any ot her prov ince in Canada-1 4.9 percent from the United States, 14 .5 percent from all other countrie s. Those are the largest declines of any other pro vince. In fact, the next closest one is 3.4 percent.

March 19 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 1417 I would ask the go vernment and the Premier (Mr. Filmon), as Chair of the Econ omic Commi ttee of Cabinet, as chair of the gove rnment com mittee responsible for this issue: Why is Manitoba suffering a decline in tou rism three times greater than any ot her pro vince in Canada? Mr. Stefanson: Mr. Speaker, I have already pointed out to the honourable member that in part a major part of our focus was retaining and building upon the 80 percent of our industry, and we have done just that.

We fared probably better than many other parts of Canada in terms of doing just that, retaining the solid core . Obviously, a swing in that particular segment can be much more devastating than the swing that the honourable member is referring to. Another statistic I would encourage him to look at is the whole issue of Canadians going down to the Un ited States, in terms of one- or two-day cross-border shopping, the honourable member for Flin Flon (Mr. Sto rie) points out. That is a pro blem once again for all of Canada, but I would encourage the honourable member to compare once again.

While we are not pleased with those statistics, when we are comparing ourselves to other pro vinces, we are faring significantly better in that area, which points to the fact that, at least, more Manitobans are recog nizing what we have right here in our province , Mr. Speaker. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, again to the First Minister (Mr. Rim on): Why is Manitoba-and this is a point that was raised by the member for Portage (Mr. Connery) two days ago in his speech as well-suffering in terms of touri sm, fewer persons visiting Manitoba from the United States than in any other year from 19 90 back to 19 58?

Why are we back at 19 58 levels of visitations from Americans, and how many jobs are being lost with the tourism strategy of the pro vincial government, which is by far the worst in Canada for fore ign visits? Mr. Stefanson: Mr.

Speaker, I look forward to further discussion of this entire issue during our budget process in terms of the dollars being allocated to tourism initiatives here in the pro vince of Manitoba during 19 92, as well as the new tourism agreement that has just recently been signed with the federal gov ernment, whereby some $5 million is going to be alloc ated to the marketing of Manitoba and the Manitoba region. So what I point out to the honourable member is that we anticipate significant growth in the tou rism industry in 19 92, and we will see improve ment in that area.

I encou rage further debate during the budget process. * (1 340) Ablnochl Preschool Program Funding Mr. George Hlckes (Point Douglas): My question is to the Minister responsi ble for Native Affairs. The Aboriginal Justice Inquiry stated that maintaining aboriginal languages is vital in rebuilding the culture lost through years of colonization. The Abinochi preschool language program seeks to promote and strengthen this aboriginal language. The program has been praised by many groups, and its curriculum is requested by groups right across Canada and even from the United States.

The minister's working group recommended that long-term funding be made available to this pro ject. Is the minister aware that this program will be forced to close its doors today to 30 children who are enrolled in this progr am? Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker, there has been a series of meetings and considerable work done as it related to this progr am. In fact, this gove rnment, not the previous administration but this government, put some additional funds in a year ago, some $64,000, to complete last year's funding and complete last year's progr am.

At the same time, there was a letter sent in June of 19 91 indicating the gove rnment would have no further funding available to them and another one sent in October with the same message. He has to appreciate that it is very difficult to maintain the overall educational program ming for everyo ne. There are tough choices that have to be made. We have to maintain education In a broad sense of the word. There were no additional funds, and those messages went to those individuals last June and last Octobe r. Mr. Hlckes: It is not a very tough choice when you fund- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr.

Hlckes : Will this minister realloc ate the funds to the Abinochi today or consider interim funding of

14 18 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 19 , 19 92 $21 ,000 to the project so at least it can con tinue until the end of June 19 92 and look at long-term funding for this valuable project to preserve aborig inal languages in Manitoba? Mr. Downey: Mr. Speak er, I am not underestimating the importance of the aboriginal language progr amming that I know is supported by many people. The question is: Where would we take the resources from to provide the funding which is being requested? That is the question . We have not heard that option coming forward .

As I indicated a year ago, we did put some $64,000 to comple te it. At the same time, we did indicate we could not carry on with additional funding but would attempt to try and find funding. Funding is not available. Rather than try to mislead or tell him that it is, messages went out clearly in lots of time to indicate that other funding would have to be found if it would in fact be carried on. Minister of Native Affairs Public's Confidence Mr. George Hlcke s (Point Doug las) : Mr.

Speaker, how can the minis ter say that his department has the confidence of the aborig inal people of Manitoba when we see aboriginal programs such as this being cut? We have not heard anything about the urban aboriginal strategy that had been promised two years ago, and we see no support to the abori ginal CP station for the aboriginal people. How can the minister stand there and say, I have the confidence of aboriginal peoples today? Hon. James Downey (Minister responsible for Native Affairs): Mr. Speaker, one has to, as I say, make tough decisions.

Just two days ago, we signed an agreement where some $1 17 million of federal-prov incial money will be taking the people of the north-central commu nities out of third world conditions as it relates to their hydroelectric power. That is the kind of priority that this go vernment puts on the expenditures of taxpayers' money. Where was the member for Rupertsland, where was the New Democratic Party, when they were in office for so many years, leaving those people live in Third World conditions?

Our priorities are to help those individuals, the youth, the seniors and every citizen in those commu nities. * (1 345) Manitoba Heritage FoundaUon Funding Decisions Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship said that she was stripping the Heritage federation of its granting authority because of the high administrative costs, yet she refused to indicate why she did not meet with the group to address the high administrative costs before firing them.

What this tells us is that this only reinforces the belief that this minister has the agenda to politicize every facet of her department, as she has done with the Multicultural Secretariat's off ice. My question to the minister is: Who will be evaluating the proposals and making the decisions on who will be receiving the heritage grants? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr.

Speaker, we have comm itted to a full process of consultation with heritage organizations throughout the pro vince so that in fact the needs of the com munity can be determined and the funding will proceed in a way that the com munity wishes. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, the question is: Who is going to be making the decision as to which organization is going to be receiving the money? All indications are is that it is going to be the minister, and if that is the case, the minister is politicizing it. Does she not understand that? Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr.

Speaker, I understand that there are many organizations out there within the heritage commu nity who know and understand the needs of the communi ty. They will be a part of the process in determining who in fact will be making the decisions on the funding in the future. Role Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, one has to wonder in terms of what role-to the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship-is the Heritage federation and all the volunteers, those who are interested in heritage and the preservation of heritage in the pro vince of Manitoba both in the city of Winnipeg and rural Manitoba-do they have to play under this minister's new vision of how she is going to be doling out the grants to different organizati ons? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship): Mr. Speaker, you know, there are many people throughout the

March 19 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1419 heritage commun ity who have the ability to make those kinds of decisions, and those decisions will be made. In the first question that the member for Inkster ask ed, he indicated that the heritage commun ity was not being well served. We want to ensure that every poss ible dollar that goes to the heritage co mmu nity indeed goes to the gr assro ots community and not to an adminis trative structure that inhibits the co mmunity from being able to do their work. Home Care Program Service Reduction Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Health in this House continues to say that there have been no home care cutbacks in his budget and in Manitoba. He poi nts to a line increase in his budget which shows that there is an increase as evidence that he is not cutting back in home care. Meanwhile, all around us, seniors are coming forward, home care workers are coming forward with evidence of cutbacks. Yesterday we met with home care workers Gwen Boy chuk and Doreen Burdeny of Dauphin, who have had their hours cut in haH. Yesterday we met as well with seniors like Helen Gingera and John Dmytruk who have been cut off completely.

These are only a few of the many who have been cut off from home care . Can this Minister of Health explain to this House how he can justify cutting these clients from these services when he says he is increasing his budget? Will he come clean with Man itobans and acknowledge a devious budgeting process and that he is directing the lapsing of those funds? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend from Dauphin is asking a very, very important question . An Honourable Member: He is not from Dauphin anymore ; he is for Dauphin. * (1 350) Mr.

Orchard: I stand corrected , my honourable friend the member for Dauphin, not from Dauphin. Mr. Speak er, my honourable friend makes a great to-do about budget in home care . My honourable friend might know that the home care budget is approa ching $62 million in the current budget that we are now debating, and we expect the demand for service will achieve that. The other thing I want to remind my honourable friend of is that when he was around the cabinet table, the gov ernment of the day comm issioned the Price Waterhouse investigation into the Conti nuing Care Progr am, the home care progr am.

One of the recommendations that was accepted by this gove rnment from the study initiated by the New Democrats when in office was a reasse ssment of services on a periodic basis, and that, Mr. Speaker, has been done. From time to time, when service prov ision is reassessed and a new patient condition is identified where the services are increased , they are incr eased . However, the same applies when services are no longer needed. They are curtailed by that reassessment process which was advocated by my honourable friend when he was in gov ernment. Employee Conflict of Interest Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, the home care workers say they are not even consulted in any re-ev aluation process that is taking place. Why is this minister, after cutting off the seniors like Mrs. Gingera, like John Dmytruk, preventing the home care workers from continuing to provide care to these senior s by for cing them to sign confl ic t-of-interest stat ements that prevent them from maintaining this close relationship that these seniors have come to depend on for a number of years with these work ers? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, my honourable friend, in posing the question , of course, did not give any elucida tion around the fact that his go vernment did apply reas sessment criter ia, and from time to time, under their delivery of program as happens today, under a reassess ment, services are increased if needed and decreased if not needed. Even in my honourable friend's time, the care deliverer, the home care worker whom he refers to, did not do those assessments of need. That was done by the sam e group that assesses the individual to bring them into the home care program to meet their needs in their home.

The reassessment process is never done by the care worker ; it is done by the staff who assess the program and the needs of the progr am. If I could be so direct with my honourable fri end, is he asking if the service prov ision workers who are

14 20 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 19 , 19 92 receiving salary payments for provi ding service should be the ones who determine the level of service? I think that some might call that a conflict of interest, Mr. Speaker, and not even in gove rnment did the New Democr ats even advocate that, let alone do it. Mr. Plohman : Mr. Speaker, this minister is referring them to the private sector so they can pay for these services. Mr. Speaker: Question , please. service Reduction • Parkland Region Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): There is an epidemic of wholesale cutbacks in the Parkland.

Will this minister apologize to 82-year-old Helen Gingera, who depends on a lifeline, who has a pacemaker and who explained to us in tears yesterday that today she is being cut off from the services that she has come to depend on and can no longer have the services from that caring worker who has worked with her? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend refers to a referral to a private se ctor pro vider of services.

My honourable friend might want to clarify the language around his statement, because I think what he will find out is that the service provider who is probably being recommended to these individuals is through a grant of government, through the support services for sen io rs prog ram , wherein go vernment establishes the salary payment to a volu nteer co-ordinator who then arranges for volunteers and not-for-profit services in the commu nity to be accessed by seniors to enhance their independent living, services which are not provided by gove rnment, by the taxpayers. Mr.

Speaker, that successful support services for seniors program was one of the bright ideas of the New Democrats when in government. Is he now saying that those are not appropria te? Horne care Program service Reduction Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River ): My question is to the Minister of Health. The minister tells us that there are no cuts to home care; in fact, he is saying there are increases.

I would really like to believe him because I believe this is a very important program that allows our seniors to stay in their homes longer, rather than ending up in personal care home beds and hospital beds which are much more expensive. I have a couple of letters here from workers who tell us that their hours have been cut tremendously, and support has been taken away from them. We also have a letter from a Mr. Karpiak, whose mother is 82 years old, and he has been told that she cannot have any more support because there is a cut in budget. That is what is in the letter.

Can the minister explain, when he says there are no cuts to home care, why his staff is sending out letters to families saying that there are cutbacks? * (1 355) Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, the reason we are saying that there are no cutbacks to the home care budget is because, every single year, the budget has gone up.

Every single year, more intense levels of service are provided to Manitobans to aid them in their independent living, to forestall their admission to personal care homes, to aid and assist in early discharge from hospit als, just exactly the policy that my honourable friends from time to time advocate as good health care policy. That, Sir, is why we have sign ificantly increased the home care budget again this year, to meet more needs in the communi ty. Mr.

Speaker, as I have said time and time again, when these New Democrats come with individual cases, every one of them is a result of a review of their needs and of ot her family members. It. is something indeed that has been part of the program for 15 years, was strongly advocated by the NDP-comm issioned Price Waterhouse report, and we are fo llowing- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Ms. Wowchuk: I guess review means cutbacks for people- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Staff Intimidation Ms.

Rosann Wowchuk (Swan River): Can the minister explain why his staff members are calling workers in the Parkland area and asking them if they have been talking to their MLA about this matter and intimidating workers? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): No, Mr. Speaker, I certainly cannot answer that because I am certainly not aware of any alleged, real, perceived, accused or whatever my honourable

March 19 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 21 friend just says in terms of intimidation of worke rs. What is happening is the same process that has happened for the appro ximately 15 years that we have had the Conti nuing Care Progr am. The only difference in home care today is the difference that you have when you buy services with $62 million of budget versus som e $36 million of budget the last time the New Democr ats were in office . The same policy of review is in place. My honourable friends do not know what they are talking about when they say no.

During the term that they were go vernment, they would review the care needs of individuals, and if their care needs changed, so did the service pro vision. That could be an incr ease in service or a decrease in service according to the need of the client. Decision-Making Process Ms. Rosann Wowchuk (Swan Riv er) : Mr. Speaker, this is a very serious problem- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Ms. Wowchuk: What is going on in his department? When is he going to find out? Who has control of his department? Who is making these decisions and why- Mr. Speaker: Order, please . The question has been put. Hon.

Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): I sense that there was a question of who is running the home care budget in the regions, and I will tell you who is running it. It is the profess ionals who have always run the progra m. They mak e pr o fessional ass essment, and they ma ke prof essional judgment on the basis of needs of the client. They are not directed to make political decisions under the influence of opposition New Democr atic MLAs, nor are they under the threat from this side of the House of acceding to demands by gove rnment MLAs.

They make a professional assess ment as to what the clients' needs are, and those needs are met, Sir, with a $62-million budget this year. The kinds of politics and rhetoric my honourable friend has accused professional staff of is shamefu l. Beverage Containers Deposit System Mrs. Sharon Carstalrs (Leader of the Second Opposition): Mr. Speaker, for the last five years, we have been telling the gove rnment that the soft-d ri nk -recy clin g system should includ e legislation which makes it compulsory.

For the past three years, we have been telling them that the system that they put into place is not worki ng, yet we know that with regard to deposits on beer contai ners, it is wor king. It is working to the tune of 90 percent. Even their own WRAP stra tegy, which they say they support, indica tes this type of an initiative. Can the Premier (Mr. Filmon) tell the House now why his gove rnment will not recognize that halfway measures do not work and implement a deposit system that has proven to be successful in the brewing industry and was once part of the life of the soft drink industry ? * (1 400) Hon.

Gary Fllmon (Premier): We have heard all sorts of reco mmendations from the Liberal Party opposite with respec t-{in terjection) Oh, well, Mr. Speak er, we will talk about them. Maybe in my response to the budget, I will have time to read the articles about the absolute disaster of the blue-box program that was developed by the Liberal government of Ontario: How it is wasting tens of millions of dollars, how it is res ulting in them collec ting, by the blue-box, things that they are then having to pay to export all ov er the world for recycl ing purposes. They cannot do it within their own jurisdiction .

They are having to spend tens of millions of dollars to ship it to the United States and all over the world in fact. Then when they cannot do that, they are having to landfill it after they have bothered to go around at great cost and collect it from people in their homes. That is the kind of approach that Liberals take to recy cling. Without addressing the substance of the questi on, which I will leave for the En vironment minister (Mr. Cummings), Mr. Speaker, we will not accept the Liberal approach to recy cling. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr.

Speaker, perhaps since the Premier does not like looking at Liberal policies, he would look at the Tory policy in the prov ince of Alberta, which in fact is a deposit-return legis lation and is successf ul in having 90 percent of the bottles and cans returned. Why is this gove rnment prepared to accept respo nsibility only for a portion when their own WRAP com mittee has sugges ted that they should

14 22 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 19 , 19 92 be prepared to put into place legislation which requires full res ponsi bility for cont ainers? Mr. Fllmon: I invite the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs) to refer to the Financial Times of February 3, 19 92. The

article is called: Trashed hopes, blue boxes are going to cost taxpayers big. It talks about the absolute disaster of the Liberal recyc ling policy in Ontario. It says that the big beneficiaries are Coca-Cola Ltd. and Pepsi-Cola Ltd., two multinationals who are in fact being subsidized to the tune of tens of millions of dollars. It says: By persuading the previous Liberal pro vincial government to allow one-way pop cans and plastic bottles on the mark et instead of refillables, they pass disposal costs on to the taxpayer. They talk about kick-starting the program with a $20-million set -up fund.

Then they talk about the costs of all of these things. Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is that I will leave the detail of the question to a debate during the Estim ates of the Department of Environment, where the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings) will respond to the detail of that questi on. Mrs. Carstalrs: Mr. Speaker, the question is with respect to a policy of this go vernment, a go vernment I thought the Premier headed. Perhaps it is the Minister of Environment who is really making decisions with respect to this government. Can the First Minister (Mr.

Filmon), who has that title because he is supposed to be the first among ministers, tell us why they are determined to reject a deposit syst em, a deposit system that in the province of Alberta has led to a 90 percent return on bottles and cans? Mr. Fllmon: Mr. Speaker, since the Leader of the Liberal Party has now finally acknowledged that she understands that I am not the minister responsible for the environment, that there are groups of minis ters who sit at the table and that there is a Minister of Environment (Mr.

Cummings) who will answer her questions in detail, I will just remind her that the blue boxes are costing taxpayers in Ontario, because of the program that the Liberal go vernment brought in, tens of millions of dollars by way of su bsidy to Pepsi-Cola and Co ca-Col a, to multinational firms who are fleecing the public of Ontario because of the Liberal policy of collecting things for which there is not an economic use at the end. I will not accept her knowledge on rec ycling any more than I accept the knowledge of her Liberal counterparts in Ontario.

I will have her have the debate on who is right and who is wrong with the Minister of the Environment when his Estimates are before this House. Independent Schools Funding Formula Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minis ter of Education and Training. One of the reasons for the cancel lation of prog rams like Abinochi and the layoff of teachers is the tens of millions of additional dollars that this gove rnment is sending to private schools.

Since, for the first time, the pro vincial budget, under an expenditur e item, mentions private schools, will the minister indicate today in the House exactly what the private schools grant is for this year? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, no, I am not prepared to do that today because we have not announced yet to those schools exactly what their funding will be in this year. We do have a new funding form ula, and those details are being worked out. Agree ment Tabling Request Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr.

Speaker, my suppleme ntary to the same minister: Can the minister table in the House the agreement between the province and separate school s which commits the government this year to a massive increase to private schools? Can she table that document in the House today? Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, there is in fact an agreement that was determined by this gove rnment. I do not have it with me in the House to table it at this time. Mr. Chomlak: I will table that document. I will table it for the first time publicly. Funding Formula Mr.

Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Can the minister conf irm that the private schools this year will receive 9 percent increase , which is three times the rate of public schools, this year?

March 19 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 23 Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I will be dealing with the issue of funding to independent schools when the announcement is made. I am sure the member will be extremely interested in the funds goi ng to the school in his own consti tuency. * (1 41 0) Alfred Block • Selkirk Inspection Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Housing. Manitoba Housing is the owner of the Alfred block in Selkirk, an apartment which recently failed a fire inspection.

Conditions there are deplorable and have been compared to Detroit's inner city. Will the minister now investigate this apartment and other housing units in Selkirk and order an immediate upgrading? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, I am aware of the situation the member has brought forward . It has been inspected . It is scheduled for upgra ding, and the work will be proce eding as quickly as pos sible. Mr. Dewar: I would like to thank the minister for that answer. Thank you. Regional Housing Authority Selkirk Staffing Mr.

Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): In view of the recent budget cuts with closures in Selkirk, will the Minister of Housing guarantee that there will be no jobs lost at the Selkirk Housin g Authority under his reorga nization? Hon. Jim Ernst (Minister of Housing): Mr. Speaker, the question of staffi ng of Manitoba Housing Authority offices throughout the length and breadth of this provi nce will be the subject of an agreement as either adjudicated by the Labour Board of the Provi nce of Manitoba or by way of a co-operative agreement amongst the collec tive bargaining agents for members of that group.

We are in that process at the moment, and no final decisions have been taken. Mr. Dewar: Mr. Speaker, will the minister at least ensure that the Housing Authority's office remains in Selkirk and not be mo ved under this gove rnment's back sliding decentralization policies? Mr. Ernst: Mr. Speaker, I reject categori cally the assertions of the member for Selkirk. If he had been paying attention, about two mo nths ago, we announced that the office would be in Selkirk. Solis and Crops Branch Budget Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. BonHace): Mr.

Speaker, the budget increases to Agriculture are a welcome sight from this gove rnment which, over the past four years, has failed to live up to its budgetary commitments to farmers during some of the most difficult years farmers have faced since the Depression. While the budget implements the income stabilization progr ams introduced by the federal gove rnment, we see very little attention paid to the long-term development of agricultural products and mark ets and no commitment to sustainable agricult ure. My question, Mr.

Speaker, to the Minister of Agriculture is: Can the minis ter tell the House how a 12 percent cut in the program expenditures of the Soils and Crop s Br anch demo nstr ates a commitment to sustainable agriculture when soil degradation has been identified as one of the biggest environment challenges in the world? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, sta rting in 1990, Manitoba got into a joint federal-pro vincial program called Farming for To morrow, under the Soil Accord, set up 44 soil and water associations all across Manitoba. That con tinues to be funded on an escalating basis.

That program promotes conservation of soil. It actu ally has resulted in a st imulus of the reduction of summer fa llow acreage in Manitoba. Until now, we are down to 7 percent of our acreage in summer fallow projected for 199 2. It was 8 percent last year, far in excess of the degree of activity in Saskatchewan or Alberta, where in Saskatchewan we have over 25 percent still in summer fallow.

Our programs have stimu lated the right kind of thought process by farmers to reduce the amount of land in summer fallow, and the soi l and water associations have sti mulated many kinds of conservation initiatives at the farm level. University of Manitoba Agricultural Research Mr. Ne ll Gau dr y (St. Bon iface) : My supplemen tary question is to the same minister, Mr. Speaker.

14 24 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 19 , 19 92 Why did the minister cut his support for research at the University of Manitoba, research aimed at developing new products, new farming methods and better soil conservation which are designed to help farmers diversify and become more efficient and com pete in the global market? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture) : Mr. Speaker, the level of support to the university directly in the budget has gone from $875 ,000 to $8 00,000.

It is regrettable that we cannot fund more, but we have had to put an emphasis on the risk reduction programs for farmers, like GRIP and NI SA and tripar ti te , wher e we in creased expenditure in our budget from 36 percent about five years ago to 74 percent of our budget today to risk prote ction programs. That is our first priority. Also, I want to remind the member, there is an awfu l lot of research done at the farm level, a lot of the research done by the private sector, which is not included in my budget, and I dare say the level of research dollar expenditure in Manitoba continues to go up every year.

We will continue to discuss this in Estimates, Mr. Speaker. [interjection) Mr .Gaudry: No, it was not Laurie Evans who wrote the questions. I wrote them myself, Mr. Premier. Agricultural Industry Diversification Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. BonHace): Mr. Speaker, my final supplementary is to the minister, if the Premier (Mr. Filmon) would leave us alone.

With markets improv ing and income stabilization program s in place, why did this gov ernment ignore investing in the long-term challenges to the syst em, like diversification and soil fertility, which will enable Man itoba farm er s to stay ahea d of other international competitors? Hon. Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, two months ago, I released a Visions for the 19 90s docu ment on the Department of Agriculture, where we continued to emphasize diversification.

We continue to work with the indus try through various initiatives to promote diversificat ion, more value added, and Manitoba has had a lot of success in that directi on. I would like to remind the member that we con tinue to do it through all of our department personnel day to day, working with the private sector and the farm commu nity. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. Nonpolitical Statements Mr. Edward Connery (Portage Ia Prairie): 1 would like leave, Mr. Speaker, for a nonpolitical statement. Mr.

Speaker: Does the honourable member for Portage Ia Prairie have leave to make a nonpolitical state ment? Agreed. Mr. Connery: it gives me great pleasure to rise today to congratulate the Manitoba Developmental Centre management and staff in Portage Ia Prairie for receiving a two-year accreditation from the Canadian Council on Health Fac ilities. This is not a new occ urrence for the centre , I might add. It is the extension of the accreditation it first received in 19 89.

This extension was based on an extensive process involving an in-depth survey of the centre, a centre that pro vides high-quality care and training for some 570 residents with mental disabilities. This accreditation recognizes the dedication of the administration and staff of the centre. In order to attain accredita tion, the Manitoba Developmental Centre's gove rning body, medical, nursing and supp ort services had to meet the demanding standards of the Canadian Council on Health Facilities. [inter jection] It is unfortu nate, Mr. Speaker, the member for Flin Aon (Mr.

Storie) is not interested in good news for the handicapped. Mr. Speaker, I am honoured to congratul ate the Manitoba Developmental Centre for receiving their accreditation and join with all of the residents of Portage Ia Prairie in the sense of pride that this accomplishment brings to the communi ty. Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Opposition): I would like leave for a nonpolitical stat ement, please. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable Leader have leave to make a nonpolitical stat ement? Leave? It is agreed. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to, for the third time in two days, join with the member for Portage on this sta tement that he has made in the House, and applaud the staff, volu nteers and community of Portage Ia Prairie for the accreditat ion. I have often said and I have often felt that it is one of the most difficult and challenging places to work. It is a very, very difficult environment to work in and to be part of. As a person who is a volunteer with the mentally handicapped , working with Special

March 19, 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 25 Olympics over the years, I have a tremendous admiration for people all across Manitoba who work with the mentally handica pped , whether it is at the development school or at St. Amant or in the community or part of the Welcome Home or part of working with people back in their own communities. I think Manitoba is to be proud of the staff and volunteers who work right across the con tinuum, and I congratu late the dedicated staff who work in part of the cont inuum in the Manitoba development school . *** Mrs.

Louise Dacquay (Seine River): Do I have leave, Mr. Speak er, to make a nonpolitical stat ement? Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member for Seine River have leave to make a nonpolitical stat ement? An Honourable Member: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave. It is agreed. Mrs. Dacquay: It gives me great pleasure to rise in the House today to congratulate Dr. Robert Mcleod of the University of Manitoba Engineering faculty on winning the 19 91 Rh Award. Dr.

Mcleod received his Bachelor of Science in 19 81 and his Ph.D. in 19 85 through the University of Manitoba and then joined the teach ing staff of the Engineering fac ulty as an associate prof essor. In his years with the facu lty, he has published more than 30 articles in international journals and 35 con ferenc e paper s. His efforts have been instrumental in the development and accreditation of the new Computer Engineering Degree progr am, in esta blishing the Industry Interns hip program and in introducing new courses and developing new laborat ories.

The faculty is extremely fortunate to have such a young aca demic who is as gifted , enthusiastic and hardworking as Dr. Mcleod. He has made extraordinary con tributions to the department in his six years on staff. Mr. Speaker, I am honoured to extend my congratulations today to Dr. Mcleod and the other winners of the Rh Award. • (1 420) ORDERS OF THE DAY BUDGET DEBATE Mr. Speaker: On the adjourned debate, seventh day of debate, on the proposed motion of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) , and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Do er), in amendment thereto, and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the Second Opposition (Mrs. Cars tairs), in further amendment thereto, st anding in the name of the honourable member for St. Norbert, who has 20 minutes remaining. Mr. Marcel Lauren deau (St. Norbe rt) : Mr. Speaker, after perusing Hansard just now, I would like to apologize to the House and withdraw some state ments that I made in the heat of the moment yesterday and withdraw them unconditi onally. Mr.

Speaker , I think that this gov ernment has established a bench mark with this budget, a bench mark for all gov ernments throughout this country to follow. I think we have to congratulate our minister and our Treasury Board for working very hard to est ablish a more than fair budget. They are working in hard times to establish what is fair for this pro vince. I think they have done one of the best jobs that any gover nment in this country will do to date. If the other provi nces wi:: follow this bench mark, I think that this country will be led into the futu re and be further ahead in the global economy today.

Mr. Speaker, I would like to, atthls time, thank the constituency of St. Norbert for their undivided support over the past two years. I have attempted to be their voice here in the Legislature, and I have tried to see that my voice has been heard. I have seen that they are being listened to, and I am working diligently with tenacity to see that this gov ernment makes the right choices. To date, this gov ernment has made the right choices. Mr.

Speaker , my constituents wou ld like, at this time, to thank the Hazardous Waste Management Corporation and this gov ernment for the decision on the est ablishment of a hazardous waste fac ility in Montc alm. We believe it is a win-win situation for this pro vince. There was a lot of psyc hological effect within my com munity with this topic, and I am glad that the decision was finally made and the people's voices of my constituency were heard. I do not believe that the philosophy of the NDP will come back to life in this gover nment for many years to come. I believe that the people of this province

14 26 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 19 , 19 92 have seen a new era, they have seen what an NDP gove rnment can do to a pro vince. I think they see now, today, what a Conservative go vernment can do for this province. They are happy with what they see, Mr. Speaker, because all they ever hear from the voices of the NDP and their special interests groups are tax increases. Again, today in the paper I read that their special interest group, Choices, went to the city and said it should be a minimum of 2.9 percent increase-a minimum.

This is their special interest group, the NDP's special interest group, claiming it should be a 2.9 percent minimum. Mr. Speaker, the citizens of Winnipeg have had enough. We have had enough with tax increases, and we say enough is enough. I wish the NDP will tell their special interest groups to keep their noses out of the City of Winnipeg's business and let the elected offi cials do what their job is, and that is to run this city eff ectively and responsi bly. On that note, Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank this House for listening and thank you very much. Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Mr.

Speaker, I welcome this opportunity to partici pate in the 1992-1 993 Budget Debate.

I wish to focus on three topic areas : first, the political relationship between economic performance perceived to be under the management of the incumbent party in government and their fortunes in the ensuing electoral contest ; second, on the economic relationship between the transfo rming economic structure and the changing micr oeco nomic policies and industrialist strat egies needed by a transformed economy; and, thirdly, on some positive ideas about what to do in order that we may survive economically in the face of a globalized economic competition going on for the preservation of our standard of living, and the continuation of our economic growth com patible with environmen tal necessities.

On the first point, there is a link between economic conditions and the political outcome of electoral contests. Rightly or wrongly, the voters, the electorate, hold the party incumb ent in gove rnment respons ible for the econ omic perfor mance regardless of whether or not there are some objective forces at work which are beyond the control of the go verning party. We have seen that economic conditions in the commu nity, in the society, in the pro vince, alter and influence the perspective and outlook of the vot ers.

They reward the party inc umbent in government for a good econ omic perform ance, and they punish the incumb ent party in gove rnment for bad economic times. Naturally enough, the politicians and political parties in control of the machinery of gove rnment will do the best they can in or der to influence, by resorting to some economic control s, the workings of the economy, in order that they can alter the perspective of the vote rs and secure the support and persuade them to re-elect them for the ensuing electoral cycle.

This is true not only in Canada but also in the United Kingdom, also in the United States or any other democratic societies, industrialized societ ies, based on a capitalistic economy. In the case of the British political syst em, Butler and Stoke s observed in their work-pol itical change in Britain- the followi ng: How deeply rooted in British politics is the idea that a go vernment is accountable for good and bad times? Popular acceptance of this idea means that the state of the economy looms large in the minds of all modern Prime Minis ters as they pondered on the timing of a dissolution.

In the post-Keynesian era, more than one government has been tempted to seek fa vourable context for an election by expanding the economy althou gh dissolutions are more easily timed with expansion rather than the other way arou nd. In other wor ds, the party which is in control of the government seeks to manipulate the economic variables within their control in order to improve the economic conditions of the people, especially during pre-election and election years.

If there is an increase in the disposable income of the people-and we will notice this with the coming federal election-there will probably be a greater frequency of cheques going to the hands of recipients of some programs in government so that they will have more money in their hands and they feel they have prosperity in their hands in order that they may be persuaded to re-elect the party government in powe r. • (1 430) In the United States, for example, it has been shown that there is a direct correlation between the increase in the growth of real dis posable income per capita and the nature of the year involved, whether it is an election year or not.

Over the entire period from 1946 to 19 76, including the Eisenhower years, in a period of 31 years, the median rate of growth in

March 19 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 27 real disposable income per capita was 3.3 percent during the years when the incumb ent president was seeking re-electi on, com pared to only 1. 7 percent in all other years which is not a presidential election year, 3.3 as against 1. 7 increase in the real per capita income in the United States econom y.

It is clear therefore that the go vernment has been doing its best to improve the economic condition , at least the perspective of the people: how the economy is doing during electoral years, during election years, than compared to years where there are no elec tions. The regular governmental agencies are just too eager to help out in this regard, partly because they want to stay out of trouble from politicians who, because of advantages of incumb ency, may likely be returned to po wer; so they co-operate.

They are all too willing to improve the econ omic conditions of the people, and if an election year would help, they are willing to do that hoping that this will be a more or less permanent development. Therefo re, real income tends to increase in all industrialized societies-in Canada, in the United States, in England-during election years. This is done through increases in transfer payments, in the gove rnmen tal adm in istrative me ssing with beneficiary payments, decreases in tax rates, and if pos sible, postpon ement of tax increases from election year to prior and future years .

This is due to the advice of economists who are in advisory councils, advising politicians and leaders of countries. For example, it has been noted that Paul Samuelson, a well-known economist, had written to President Kennedy and the council of eco nomic advisors the followi ng: I have been telling them at the office what this country needs is an across-the-board rise in disposable income to lower the level of unemployment, speed up the recovery and the return to healthy growth, promote capital fo rmation and the general welfare, ensure domestic tranquility and ensure the triumph of the Democratic Party.

That is Paul Samue lson in relation to President Kennedy and the performance of the econom y in order to assure the election of the Democratic Party. It is very clear that there are certain instruments of monetary and fiscal control available to the party in gove rnment. They can put larger cheques in the mail during the months before the election, and we probably will see this with the Mulroney gove rnment. There may be budget deficits, but they will not mind it. They can go contrary to that if they can win the next election.

Manipu lation of the control of the economy by the ruling party is therefore a natural phenomenon that we can expect during election year. There is, therefore , a natural synchronization of econ omic fluctua tions in the economy and the nature of the year that we are in, whether it is an election year or an off-e lection year. Electoral candidates will seek the timing of the election so that they can increase the probability of their re-elec tion.

Mulroney, for example, the present Prime Ministe r, will probably postpone the traditional four-year electoral cycle and go for the fifth year if that means that they can win the next federal election . (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Acti ng Speaker, in the Chair) While the electoral calendar helps the timing of eco nomic policy, the ideology of political parties and the ideology of political leaders will shape the substance of that policy. Parties of the right will fa vour low rates of taxation, and we have seen that in this gove rnment. They say, no taxes this year. They will try to control inflationary press ures.

They will oppose income equalization. They would rather go for a higher rate of unemployment but less inflation. This is true of the federal government. The central Bank of Canada has been contr olling the rate of inflation by a policy of high interest rates because the prope rty-ow ning segment of the country would be interested in prote cting the erosion of their holdings by contro lling inflation, and there is nothing they can gain by being concerned about the rate of unemployment. On the other hand, parties of the left will favour income equalization .

They will try to lower the rate of unemployment through larger governmental budgets, and they would not hesitate to allow a little bit of inflation in order to reduce the rate of unemployment. This holds true in all countries, industrialized, that are based on a capitalistic eco nomic syst em. In Canada, for example, the New Democr atic Party is very sensitive to the rising rate of unemployment ; on the other hand, the Progressive Conservative Party and the Liberal Party are very concerned about inflation .

It is seen that the ideological position of the party in gov ernment is a very important determinant in the form ulation of

14 28 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 19 , 19 92 party platform s, and in setting pri ority in the determination of econom ic and industrial pol icy. The voting public, the elec torate , when they exercise their right of choice, will choose between parties who have differing economic priorities and will hold the party incumb ent in go vernment, rightly or wrongly, respo nsible and accountable for bad economic times, and reward them for good economic times. Therefore , there is an artificial pre-election prosperity, but this is only in the short run.

After the electoral year is over, that dispensation of public money will have somehow to be paid for by increasing rates of taxation to make up for the cost of such economic extravagances during election year. As goes politics, so goes economics. As is stated by Edward Tufte of Princeton University, the economic light vibrates with the rhythm of politics. * (1 440) Let me now go to the second point, Mr.

Acting Speak er, how the globalization of our economies, the transformation of economic structure has been changing, macroeconomic policies, industrialis t strat egies of gov ernment, and this is best indicated by what is going on in the most progressive and advanced country in the industrial world today, namely, that of Japan. It is worth looking, theref ore, a little bit closer into what is going on, what is happening in the Japanese economy.

Contrary to what the popular belief and myth that Japanese firms are huge corporations like we know-l ike Mitsubishi, Toyota or Sony-in Japan, actually, there are many, many more small and medium-sized firms with 300 employees or less. So we could see that the industrial structure of the Japanese economy consists of a dual parallel structur e, huge multinational firms as well as numerous small firms. On the other hand, the organization of the large firm is not the same as our corporate giants in our continent. They organize themselves like a commu nity.

The company not only gives fringe benefits, they also have group programs for hobby classes, for vacati ons, and they are assu red, more or less, lifetime employment until they are retired. Retirement in Japan does not mean you are already old, because you can retire at age 60 or earlier. Contrary to popular belief, this is true only with large Japanese corporati ons, not with the very small ones, because a large number of the very small ones are temporary workers, many of them women, and they do not enjoy this lifetime job security.

In Japan, contrary to the American industrial structure where labour cost is considered a variable cost, labou r cost is a fixed cost. A fixed cost does not change with the changing level of output. It is fixed. Regardless of whether the firm is producing no thing, the cost is still something that management has to account for. This is the reason why layoff is gen erally avoided by Japanese firms.

Conseq uently, because they have to produce the money, the fund to pay for this fixed cost of labour of their work force, the Japanese managers emphasize long-range shares of the market as an ultimate goal and objective of the firm rather than short-term profits. This is related also with how they are financed. Unlike our corporations in this part of the world , which are mostly financed by selling shares of the stocks and portions of ownership of the firm, the Japanese firms do not fin ance their activities by selling shares in stocks.

They would rather borrow money in the form of loans from their favourite banks, and so they have no worry about making dividend declarations or annou ncements every qu arter or every year, becaus e these are loans-that does not have to pay dividends. True, indeed, they have to pay interest, but in terms of economic prosperity and in terms of industrial success, they can even buy out the l�n.

So they generate their own internal funds, and because they do not worry about expansion, because they have their own funding through internal funds, they can focus their goals and obje ctives through a greater share of the market rather than immediate profits. The greater share of the market, therefore , is a much higher objective for Japanese managers than immediate short-run profit One more thing. They do not worry about hostile corporate takeover, because in Japan there is an economic arrangement among large corpora te groups, some kind of a mutual help society.

These are the informal collection of companies who revolve around a single bank and work like a corporate mutual aid society. The Japanese managers do not have to worry, because their gross holdings and their relationship with the members of the corpo rate group mak e hostile corpo rate takeover almost impossible and unlikely.

March 19 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 29 The st ability of the econom ic system is also attributed to the political sta bility in the sense that since 19 55 there has only been one nation al party that has always been re-elected to power in Japan. This is the Liberal Democratic Party. Because of the fact that they have a stable ruling party, that ruling party throughout all its years had succeeded in 14 coalitions among major interest groups to help and support them in every electoral contest except with organized labour.

They have gathered the support of all the other major groups in Japanese society. That is why the political struggle tends to take place within the structure of the party rather than outside in the general election . The bureaucracy in Japan is small, but it is an elite and very influential core of civil servants. It is very difficult to get into the Japanese civil service.

For example, in 19 76, of over 50,000 people who took the national hir e civil exam ination , 50,000 applicants trying to write, 50,000 who wrote the national exami nation, only 1 ,300 passed the examination to enter the civil service in Japan. The civil service you can see is a status sym bol. The most likely thing any family would be proud of is one of their children being able to succeed in entering the Japanese civil service. The Japanese civil service therefore is highly elitist, like the French civil service is an elite kind of army of civil servants with tremendous influence in the form ulation of policy.

The most influential of this is the minis try of international trade and ind ustry. They have ju risdiction over trade policy throu gh control of resources, manufactu ring, commercial technology, small busi nesses-except macro economic policy which falls under the minis try of finance. During all these years, the Japanese headed up a strategy of anticipating the future and reor ganizing their industry accor dingly. They do not seek to change or alter the impersonal economic force s.

They have resorted to certa in policies like even contr olling fo reign exchange, and they have indirect influence over the disposal of capital throu gh the control of the banks. In all these years they have accepted the legitim acy of go vernmen tal intervention in the formu lation of this national macroec onomic policy and industrialist strate gy. However, all these policies have been developed not throu gh imposition by the national government, it has been developed through consultation and co-operation from indus try. They talk about it, they negotiate about it until they come to a conse nsus.

Once they have come to a consensus, they would imp lement that policy accord ingly. Even among those sectors of the industry which are diminishing, they have a very rational policy.

Unlike our economy where we weed out the inefficient firm through the market forces, and they just disappear or they wind up and become bankrupt, in Japan, if you happen to be in an industry that is declining, the government is consciously aware of such things as an economic decline in a particular sector of the industry. * (1 450) What they do is they will organize a legal cartel among all the declining industries, so that they can have an agreement to reduce their capacit y gradually until they bring supply closely going to them with demand, according to the rate of decline of the industry.

They allow the producer to allow or derly decline. They do not grant them subsidies, they just have the policy of helping them all adjust by diminishing their industrial capacity slowly. As they modernize their equipment or they diversify, there is no monetary subsidy, it is only purely policy and technical help. The reason is that they are trying to avoid the political manipu lation of macroec onomic and industrial policy by people in politics. So they do not give too much money; so they do not generate that kind of pressures among their constitu ents, among the major groups in the Japanese society.

By not dispensing a great deal of money and relying greatly on co-operation among the major firms themselves, how they could rationalize any decline in any sector of the industry, they keep the industrial policy pure from being dis torted by political controve rsy. Now, what positive ideas can we pick up from all this experience? What ideas can we consider use ful in order that we may restru cture our system and be able to compete with the advanced econ omies on an equal foo ting, and thus avoid our eco nomic decline and erosion in our standard of living? How do we do that?

In order to better compete with Japan and with Germany, for example, and ot her econom ic powers, we mus t start moving into the development of a working force that is not only highly educated, but also possessed with specific skills relevant to the

14 30 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 19 , 19 92 industry, so that they can accept responsibility and make decisions on the factory floor. We have been fo llowing the old classical model. The thinking belongs to the manager and doing belongs to the hard hat. This is the old philosophy of Frederick Taylor. We have been accustomed to that. In modern, adva nced, progress ive eco nomies, they require that thinking should take place all across the productive process from the top to the bottom .

We need a work force who can think their way through unfamiliar prob lems, not only waiting for instructions all the time, but they can make decisions. We need a work force who can handle complex tools in the workplace and can make rational decision s. How do we do that? It is related, of course , to our educational system. Right here in our society, even at the higher post-secondary level, the students are generally doing school work that they do not see any relevance with what they do in school and what they will later do when they are out in the work force.

The jobs generally bear no resemblance whatsoever to the studenfs school work. Of course, many of our students are employed part time, but what they do outside is generally alien to what they study. Students in other industrial societies have a rational transition system progr am. For example, in Japan high school seniors get their job through established links between the high schools and the employers . In Germany, roughly two-thi rds of the students learn their occu pational skills through job apprenticeships, where young people apprentice with experienced workers as they go through their educational system.

H our society is to compete successfully with the trained, skillful work force of these developing natio ns, then we must likewise develop a work force not only capable of their academ lc enhancement, but also possessed with practical knowledge and skills that they can apply immediately to the work environ ment when they go out of the educational institution. We cannot do so, or compete with them, by simply having better machinery because many of these low-wage countries can use the same machine and, of course, they can sell their product more cheaply than we can.

We need to develop our front- line workers such that they are capable of accepti ng mo re respons ibility. We need to educate them well. We have to train them to develop relevant skills while they are in the process of education. I think there is some merit to the idea that learning and doing should be integrated together in all our educational institutions. You learn in the morning, whatever it is, algebra or geometry, and then you apply it in the afternoon. Then you do not forget what you learn. For example, employers here are not interested just because a student is good in mathematics.

They are interested if they can audit their receipts in a small business. The application is the real test of true utility of knowledge. We must also set a new kind of educational standard. The standard should more or less be uniform across the nation. It must be a standard that is performance-based , based on performance , not the opinion of the evaluators. We need to establish national comm ittees of people from business, from labour, from education, from public bodies, that can define this perform ance-based standard for the profe ssional preparation of our students and the work force of the future.

We must be able to combine general education with a specific occupational skill in order to make them competent and then be able to accept responsi bility and make decisions In the work site. We need, therefore , a new form of educational system as well as a new form of work organization. The firms in our society have not consciously invested at least 1 percent of their total payroll in the training and education of the worker. Why? Because they are afraid after the worker has been trained, money has been spent for their education and for their training, this worker may move to the United States.

We trained our nurses this year in our nursing schools, we spent a lot of money, and then they move across the border. We train our doctors in our medical schools, we invest lots of money in them and yet they move across the bor der. They are attracted by higher salaries. * (1 500) In Japan when they train their workers they are not worried about the workers leaving their firm or their comp any, because that is their own commu nity, so they train them and retrain them and they become flexible in what they do, but all the time within the company because of this policy of almost lifetime assurance of job security.

Training is not a lost cost. It will be a cost that is assured to repay the company because these people will obviously

March 19 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 31 be linked and be loyal to the institution which has given them the necessary training and compet ence. We need students, even at our high school level, who are trained in basic competence in reading, mathematics, science, but also in problem solving and application of all this knowled ge. I believe that the econom ic perform ance of any country, of any nation, of any co mmunity depends upon the human resource factor as input, better than any capital investment.

If it is the work force that you invest your money in and you train them competently, efficiently so they have all the necessary knowledge and skills to make decisions at any level in the prod uctive process, then you will almost always, without doubt, increase the level of productivity. Without a trained work force we cannot hope to compete with the other advancing economies of the wor ld. They must have a mastery so they can apply what they learned. It is the constant interplay between learning and between applying that makes up for good eco nomic performance in any firm, in any industry.

We therefore need a work force with basic skills in reading, writi ng, mathematics, spea king, listening. We also need to develop in them thinking skills, creativity, decision making, problem solving as well as personal qualities like responsibility, self-discipline and integrity.

In addition, we must be able to develop in them the ability in several areas of com petence in allo cating time, money and other resources, competence in working with teams, in negotiating and in serving custom ers, in their skills in mani pulating and collecting and processing information and data, selecting and using important technology and understanding the social , econ omic and technical system in our institutions in our society. If we have all this training in our work force then we can surely successfully compete with the other developing nations. Mr.

Acting Speaker, I have shown that we need a changed work force and a changed work environment if we are to succeed in competing with the other industrial econom ies of the wor ld. Thank you. Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): Mr. Acting Speaker, it is with pride that I rise today to put my comm ents on the recor d in support of my gove rnment's budget, a budget that features no increase in personal income taxes. - I would like to offer my congratu lations to the Finance minister (Mr.

Manness) for bringing forth such a posit ive, respons ible budget, a budget aimed at helping speed Manitoba's recovery from the recession affecting all of Canada. We know that our recovery will not be a simple or a quick one, but we know that if we all work together we will indeed emerge victor ious. Mr. Acti ng Speak er, Mani tobans have demo nstrated on numerous occa sions throughout our pro vince's 122-year history that by worki ng together we can and will triumph over adversities. I encourage all Manitobans to join in that spirit of positive thinking and op timism as we work our way out of this recession .

Already I note that we are beginning to see some positive signs and ind icators that we are slowly emerging. The inflation rate is down significantly. Interest rates remain vastly lower than their peak of two years ago, and news of recovery among our trading partners continues to mount. These facts help to create the type of op timism we need more of, a thought right in keeping with an important point the Finance minister raised in his Budget Address. Just as enthusiasm is contag ious, so is opt imism. I recently read an

article that quoted commerce secretary Barbara Franklin, who cited a survey showing that small businesses expect impro vement in 199 2 in their sales, employment, capital spending and pro fitability. She stated that this news is spreading across the economy. These again are thoughts that are definitely in keeping with an important point our Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) raised in his Budget Address. I, too , believe that our key lies in our attitude. I have already begun to see the signs of optimism within our own small business com munity.

They cont inually reject the constant negativity of the opposition members who seem to revel in any scrap of news that can be interpreted as poor or bad. Instead of offe ring Manitobans encouragement when jobs are at a premium, they strike fear in the hearts of the unemployed. If you listen to the oppo sition's view of the world-and it seems they have no difficulty in spreading their message-you would think the best solution would be just to wither up and blow away. Mr. Acting Speaker, I reject that

14 32 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 19 , 19 92 line of thinking, and I am proud to say that most Manitobans also reject that line of thinking. This budget, I believe, will help to encourage more Manitobans to join in and work together in building a stronger Manitoba. Here we have a budget that deli vers the news Manitobans want to hear. Manitobans have co ntinually told us that they are paying all of the taxes they can afford, and we have listened. Here we have a budget with no new taxes. That is right: a freeze on personal income taxes for the fifth straight year.

Since 19 88, that freeze combined with other tax reductions has kept over $250 million in the pockets of Manitoba ns. This budget also features no increase in sales tax, no increase in business tax, and, I am proud to note, no increase in the pro vincial deficit. This budget also demo nstrates that you can deliver positive initiatives and increase commitments to vital human services. Ou r go vernm ent in creased its fina ncial commi tment to Health by 5.7 percent, an impressive $1 01 -million increase. I also note an impressive 8.7 percent increase in Family Services. That is an additional $51 million.

Education and Training also saw a healthy increase of 5.5 percent, or some $52 mill ion. Our governmen t believes that these increases, tot alling $204 million for priority social progr ams, are both necessary and appropria te at this time. * (1 510 ) During delivery of the budget, the Finance minister (Mr. Manness) called on all Manitobans to draw on their instinctive feeling of pride and determination to bring about a renewed sense of optimism toward Manitoba's future. Manitobans are, Mr. Acting Speaker, beginning to develop that renewed sense of optimism about the economy.

As consu mer confidence increases, signs of reco very will also increase. Manitobans want a strong pro vince with econom ic opportunities that create jobs for themselves, for their children and their grandchildren. We also want to ensure that our health care, Education and Family Services are maintained. As a government, we indeed have taken concrete steps to encou rage and promote this economic recove ry. By saying no to personal tax increases, no to business tax increase, and no to an increase in sales tax, our go vernment is demon strating that we are prepared to live within our means. I will repeat that.

We are prepared to live within our means, maintaining priority program spending and freezing personal income taxes, unlike another level of go vernment that seems to have difficulty in that area. The City of Winnipeg, as an example, has decreased services while at the same time increasing their taxes each year. While the city, by statute, is prevented from incurring a deficit, they found the solution so often sou ght by the NDP and the Liberals in this Chamber: increase taxes. It appears that the grou p Choice s-the honourable Minister of Family Services (Mr.

Gilleshammer) referred to them as architects of the NDP pretend budget, and as our Premier (Mr. Filmon) so eloquen tly labelled them, another NDP "gimme� grou p--are singing from the same song sheet as members opposite. In today's Free Press, Richard Orlandini advocated a doubling of the city's proposed 1.5 percent tax increase, typical NDP response. Jack up the taxes. That is the solution to all the prob lems. Then to talk about hypocri sy, the Choices spokesman says the city's lower income earners are cont inually bein g subjected to unavoidable increases, and what does he do?

He proposes that the proposed tax increase for the city be doubled . Well, Mr. Acting Speaker, we say no to that assertion and we encourage all other levels of government to do the same. Live within your means. The taxpayer is paying all of the tax that they can afford . This budget also provided additional funding for the City of Winnipeg. As a direct result of this budget, the City of Winnipeg will receive $90 million in pro vincial gove rnment grants, a 4.2 percent increase for its 1992 progr ams and services. That is $90 million, regrettably, Mr.

Acting Speaker, that some city councillors seem to ignore as they cont inually imply that our province does not increase their funding. To my mind, $90 million more this year than they got last year is an increase, is it not?

The 199 2 funding to the city includes $20,91 0,000 for an unconditional current progr ams grant, which may be applied toward the delivery of any program based on the city's priorities ; $1 7,450,000 for the urban transit opera ting grant to contribute up to 50 percent of the 19 92 transit operating deficit; $8, 262,000 for a general support grant as unconditional financial assistance to the city;

March 19 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 14 33 $27,200,000 in provi ncial-municipal tax sharing payments--a nd this, coincidentally is just an initial estimate, the final announcement will be made in July-- $1 6,233,500 for capital grants under the renewed urban capital projects allocation announced last fall; and an additional capital grant commitment of $1 54,000 for a transportation study proposed for 19 93. As well, we put in an additional $5 million for the public works job creation program that will be used for infrastructure projects in the city of Winnipeg. What do they say?

The province does not give them any increased funding. Mr. Acting Speaker, I have great difficulty with that. I would also like to quickly take a look at some of the other initiatives contained in our budget, some of the initiatives that indeed will, in my opinion, help to assist restore our economic outlook and also help create jobs , help small business and other medium-sized businesses, indeed, inject some of their revenue and give them some renewed optimism toward moving into the next decade.

The temporary 1 0 percent income tax credit should encourage businesses for new investment in both manufacturing and proce ssing. Additionally: a new 15 percent nonre fundable Manitoba research and development tax credit, an extension of the payroll training tax credit; $20 million over four years for the Manitoba industrial recruitment initiative to help create new business and stimulate expansion of Manitoba-based industries; and $2.5 million for the new expanded training at Manitoba's three co mmunity colleges; $1 .4 million for Partners with Youth , a program to help create jobs for young Manitobans.

There were additionally oth er initiatives indicated in the budget, Mr. Acting Speaker, designed to stimulate further the economic growth in certain key industry secto rs: the mining exploration cost, the elimination of the corporation capital tax, a mining tax holiday that should permit companies to recover their full investment in new mines, a one cent a litre reduction in railway locomotive fuel and a 0.8 percent a litre reduction on aviation fuel. To achieve tax fairness, Mr. Acting Speaker, the mini ster also announced plans to tighten tax enfor cement rules by introd ucing anti-avoidance legislation.

These tax initiatives will not only stimulate economic growth but will do so without placing an increased burden on the backs of Manitoba taxpayers. Additio nally, this budget supp orts several programs that are already helping to get the economy growing again. Some of these initiatives include Grow Bonds, the Rural Economic Development Initiative, the Crocus Investment Fund, the Vision Capital Fund, the Mineral Exploration Incentive Program, and the Economic Inno vation and Technology Fund. These initiatives will allow us to form working partnerships between gove rnment, labour and the private sector. Mr.

Acting Speaker, in closing, my constitu ents are extremely pleased with our governm ent's budget. All of my calls have been extremely posit ive. More importantly, they are impressed with our gove rnment's carefully prioritized spending record . They have indicated to me that they are prepared to work toward the important economic recovery that is so vital to all Manitobans , and our gove rnment is working with them every step of the way. Thank you , Mr. Acting Speaker. Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Acting Speaker, last year in reply to the throne speech I praised the gove rnment for three things.

Two of those things were used against me in Question Period : one by the Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer); one by the Minister of Housing (Mr. Ernst). The third item, the gove rnment betrayed itself. They made a promise and then they broke it. So I think I struck out three out of three. This year I have learned from my previous experience, and I am not going to praise the gov ernment for anything. However, I would have been hard pressed to find something in the Finance minister's speech to praise in any case, but I will try to find something positive , if I can. • (1 520) Mr.

Acting Speaker, I think there are only two ways for this government to get re-elected: one would be if they could balance the budget; the other would be if they could significantly reduce the rate of unemployment. As for reducing the deficit to zero, the operating deficit in one year, I do not think it can happen. We would have to either significantly increase revenue by either raising taxes or getting substantial increases in federal transfer payments or significantly cutting expenses. I do not think that this gove rnment is going to do any of those things or be able to do any of those things.

Unless the recession in Manitoba gets significantly worse than

14 34 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA March 19 , 19 92 other parts of Canada, it is unlikely that federal trans fer payments would increase substantial ly. We know that it is very, very difficult for a gove rnment, regardless of what political party is in off ice, to make deep, deep cuts in gove rnment programs and expenditures, especially if we are talking in the area of $300 million to $500 million. Even if ideolo gically or philo sop hically the gov ernment wanted to do that, I think it would be imp os sible.

As for signif icantly incre asi ng revenu� An Honourable Member: Is it all right if they make those cuts in Saskat chewan ? Mr. Martindale: The honourable member from Pembina asked if it would be po ssible to do that in Saskat chewan . Well, I do not know. We will have to wait and see what their budget says. I think probably the go vernment of Saskatchewan has the same problem that virtually all provi nces in Canada have today , and that is that their revenue is not gro wing as fast as their expenses. An Honourable Member: You are going to tell us how you would gove rn, are you?

Like, your Leader .•• but you would, right? Mr. Martindale: Well, I have some suggestions if the honourable member will listen. I do not think that this government can signific antly increase revenues unless of course the economy were to completely turn around and re venue from taxes were to go up on its own simply because the economy had reco vered. The other way of doing it would be to increase taxes, and we know that this government abhors doing that. The other way that I sugges ted that this government could get re-elec ted would be to sign ificantly reduce the rate of unemp loymen t.

Well, how could they do that? Possibly by doing no thing, but by waiting for the economy to recover. It is possible that the economy might recover on its own and, certainly, I think this is the hands-off approach of this gove rnment, that they are hoping that when the economy recovers in the world-wide recession and in the United States and in the rest of Canada that that will have certai n spin-offs and benefits to the prov ince of Manitoba and that the economy will tum around here as well.

The other alternative to reduce unemployment is to improve the economy of Manitoba through gove rnment action such as tax concessions to businesses and corpora tions. This is one of the stra tegies that I think this gove rnment has embarked on. The probl em is that it does not work, and I will say more about that later. The thir d way that this government could significantly reduce the rate of unemploy ment would be if they spent large amounts of money on job crea tion. Now that is something that they could do, but I think philosophically and politically they are not interested in doing and probably will not do.

Next, I would like to look at where spending is up in the Finance mi nis ter's budg et and look par ticularly at three departments: Agriculture, Energy and Mines and Family Services. We see in Agriculture that the budget is up from $1 12 million to $1 35 million, which is indeed a very significant increase . H you look at the budget, you can see that there are reasons for that and they are to be found in two main areas . One is a substantial increase in the Manitoba Crop Insur ance Corporation budget and in the Income Insurance and Support Program . Can those increases be justified? Yes, I think they can.

We know that people in rural Manitoba, people on farms, are hurting. We heard from those people very directly when 6,000 to 1 0,000 people came before the Legislature to a rally in October of last year. Someone kindly sent me some of the news coverage of that rally, and I have a clipping. pnterjection] I was atthe farm rally. The member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Connery) asks if I was at the farm rally. I would think the vast majority of our caucus was at that farm rally, showing our support for the plight of farmers in Manitoba. (Mrs.

Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) I would like to quote from the Sentinel Courier, which is the paper that serves the co mmunities of Pilot Mound, Crystal City, Clearwater, Sno wflake, La Riviere, Mather and districts . This is very interes ting. This is from one of the speeches from one of the people who was at that farm rally, and that person's name is Leanne Knuts on. This is what she said: "Farmers of every age and every economic background have come forth and said the hurt is on my farm and my family is suff ering.

People who are just starting in this business told of how they were living on $7,000 per year, others that were lucky enough to have saved som e money for a rainy day said it was gone and the equity that had been built up over the years was now being eroded ."

March 19 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 35 We know that farmers are hurting. What is it that farmers wanted? If I could quote Leanne Knutson again, she said, "We do have a different perspective on life and our lifestyles may vary from region to region, but we do want the same things. Quality of life , security, edu cation and pride in our accom plishmen ts. This isn' t poss ible without remuneration for the important role we play in society. We need a further commitment from this gove rnment and from our fellow taxpayers to allow us the dignity to go on.

In this pro vince alone, one in every eight jobs are a direct result of the agricultural industry. Without us, jobs will be lost." Are the demands of the farming commu nity reasona ble? Yes, I believe they are. Why am I using this? I am using it to draw an analogy. I think that just as the reasonable requests, as I have said, of the farm co mmu nity have been made on gove rnment and the gove rnment has responded by substantially increasing funding through the Department of Agriculture, I think there are other groups in our society that are hurting as well.

A very large group in our society that is hurting is the 52,000 people who are unemployed. These people are in similar circumstances. When people lose their jobs , they feel that it is a blow to their dignity and their pride because they want to be wor king. How has this government responded to the 52,000 people who are unemployed? I would like to suggest that they responded primarily in two ways: first of all, with tax concessions, and second ly, by in crea sing social assista nc e payments, which they were and are legally required to pay in any case . What were some of the tax concess ions?

If you look at the budget again one of the largest increases in budgets is in the Department of Energy and Mines, where the budget increased from $9 million to $1 5 million. The main reasons for this are a mining tax holiday and elimination of corporations capital tax on mine explo ration. In the budget, there were five othe r tax breaks and tax credits. As the Minis ter of Finance (Mr. Manness) said in his budget speech, the purpose is to promote activity in specifi c sectors of the economy. I think his goal is commen dable, but I have problems with tax incentives.

Tax incentives have been studied by many economists. I was reading some of those studies this morning, and the economist that I was reading pointed out that tax incentives do not usually work, and they gave some reasons. The first is that if demand for a company's products are low , it is unlikely they will invest even if there are incentives to do so, and by this I mean gove rnment ince ntives to do so. Secondly, if demand is high, the company would have invested anyway and the tax break is an added windf all.

Four Canadian studies all found that the amount of increased investment generated by the ince ntives was actu ally less than the amount of money the gove rnment gave up in revenue. Douglas May, an economist, found that for every dollar Ottawa gave up in corporate tax breaks to stimu late investment, it got about 21 cents of new inves tment back. Douglas May, the economist, also said that tax breaks created unemp loyment as companies invested in new equipment and laid off staff. I think when the go vernment gives tax breaks and tax incen tives the public need to know how much additional investm ent will result.

I do not think that the government has studied this sufficiently. I doubt very much if they have any predictions . H they do, I would be interested in hearing about that from the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) . • (1 530) Another ques tion is: How do we know that whatever benefit is derived is greater than benefits that might have accrued to equivalent tax savings for wage earners who would spend the extra dolla rs? Tax breaks allo w corporations to dramatically reduce their taxes.

It is just a way of channeling money to business, which we know from previous budgets this government is fond of doing. -[inte�ection] In response to the member for Ass iniboia (Mrs. Mcintos h), I do not know why mining companies pulled out of Manitoba. We will be watching the next year or two or three to see if the tax incentives for mining companies res ult in increased investm ent and more job creation. If they do, then I think we should commend the gove rnment. If they do not, then we were right in questioning the wisdom of this tax incentive .

The third area where we see a large increase in budget is in the Department of Family Services, whose budget went up from $589 million to $640 million. If you look through the line-by-line spending it is very obvious where the majority of that increase

14 36 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 19 , 19 92 is going to be spent. The first area is on provincial social assistance or welfare, where there is a projected incr ease of $1 1 million. The second area is municipal assistance or welfare, where there is projected to be an increase of $21 million, for a total of $32 million. I suspect that may be even higher than what the go vernment is projec ting. This morning I was visiting one of the city of Winnipeg welfare offices and talking to the staff.

The staff were telling me that their caseload is conti nuing to increase, that every day they are getting new people coming in. The things that they were telling me were quite distu rbing. In fact, it is just disturbing to be in a welfare office and see 30 or 40 people sitting waiting for an appointment, not even an appointment in an off ice, but in many cases an appointment to talk to the staff through a hole in a glass or a plexiglass partition . Now, of course , we are seeing people who have had good jobs and their unemployment insurance has run out, and they are being forced to go to city social assistanc e.

These are not people who have been unemployed before . Many of them are the new unemployed , and many of them have homes. In fact, I was told that social assistance is paying the mortgage payments on these homes, and it is not uncommon to be paying $900 or $1 ,000 a month mortgage payments. They will even pay second mortgage payments , and they will pay interest-only mortgage payments. This was quite a revelation to me. I do not know whether that will continue indefinitely or whether eventually they say to people this is costi ng the public Treasury too much money.

Hopefully, the situation that they find themselves in is temporary, and they will find jobs and support themselves. Hon. Harold Gllleshammer (r.tnlster of Family Services): Would you mak e them sell their homes? Is that what you are suggesti ng? Mr. Martindale: The Minister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) asks if I am in favour of forcing them to sell their house, and the answer is no. I think that people should be allowed to stay where they are and, in fact, under the current laws they are able to. I believe that the gov ernment had a choice in this budget as they do with every budget.

They could put money into job creation or put money into welfare. Obviously, they chose to put large sums of money into welfare. If I could go back to my advice about the next election, we might ask, well, what would it take to get re-elected by reducing unemployment? If they were able to get 10 ,000 people back to work, would they get re-elected ? If you put 20,000 people back to work, would you get re-electe d? Would it take 30,000 people back to work? I am suggesting that if this gover nment were successful in significantly reducing unemployment that it would certainly improve their election chances.

What I am hearing and what my collea gues are hearing when we knock on doors is not that people want the government to spend more money on welfare, they want the gov ernment to spend money on job creat ion. I think that taxpayers would support the go vernment spending money on job creation and pay people to work rather than pay people to collect welfare. That is what they are doing. They are paying people to stay home. I believe that the majority of the public would prefer to see those people working . They would rather pay people to work than pay people to stay home. Why will the government not do this?

Because they do not believe In job creation except through capital works projects. Inst ead they are putting all their marbles in two baskets. One is tax incentiv es, and the other is so-called consumer confide nce, but I do not know how they are going to instill consumer confidence and business comm unity confidence with the policies that they have now. I believe that people do want to work. In fact, I have had numerous discussions with my honourable friend from Rossmere (Mr.

Neufeld) on this topic, and he says that he has ac tually learned something from my advice, and I think discussions with Harold are always interes ting. I think it is a two-way str eet. An Honourable Member: He has always been a closet NDPer. Mr. Martindale: If he is a closet anything, I think he is a closet member of the Reform Party. An Honourable Member: He is a Liberal. Mr. Martindale: There is a dispute going on here. Some people think he is a Liberal. I am str aying from the point I was trying to make, and that is that there are many, many people out there who want to work. I have convinced the

March 19 , 19 92 LE GIS LATIV E ASS EMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 14 37 member for Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld) that this is true, and he has acknowl edged that. Just today when I was at the social assistance offi ce, the city welfare office , on the door of the sup ervisor who I was visiting were these two notices. One said jobs, jobs ; the other said jobs, jobs, jobs, which sounds like Mulroney in 19 84. The job is described and the address. I said , well, how long is it going to take for these jobs to be filled to prove my point that there are people who want to work?

She said these were posted at 1 :30 yesterday and by 4:30 both of these jobs would have been filled. She said that people who come there do not want to be on welfare. They want to work. There are people who have never been in a welfare office in their lives, and she said people have offered to shovel snow in front of the office rather than come in. They are embarrassed to find themselves in a welfare office . If I can go back to my analogy about agricu lture, and to quote the Minister of Rnance (Mr.

Manness), he said, quote : We will con tinue to stand with our farmers in these difficult times, and as a result resources deployed through the Agricultur e department will increase by $23 million or 21 percent. What about the 52,000 people who are unemployed? I believe that they are a resource , that the government should consider job creation as an investment, an investment of people as well as an inves tment in the prov ince of Manitoba. I believe that in the long run it would be cheaper to put people to work than to pay social assist ance.

There are a number of particular items that I would like to look at in the budget, in addition to the three large areas of increased expenditure. One is the Core Area Initiative. We on this side are very disappointed that the gove rnment has not allocated sign ificant sums of money to the Core Area Initiative. Now perhaps they know something that we do not. They prob ably know where the negotiations are at with the federal gove rnment or where they are not at if they are not being very successfu l.

It may be that the federal gove rnment has said, no, we will not put any money in in 1992-93, that we are going to wait till '93-94. Therefore, there is a reason for not putting money into the Core Area Initiative this year, but we do not know that. We, probably will not know until there is some kind of announcement from the three levels of go vernment. We do know that the first and second Core Area In itiatives were very su ccessf ul. They were successful in improv ing the downtown core of Winnipeg.

In fact, I had lunch with the manager of the North Portage Developm ent Corporation who commen ted, can you imagine what downtown Winnipeg would look like if there had not been a Core Area I and Core Area II? I think it is a good point. We probably would have had a lot fewer people living downto wn, and we certainly would have had many fewer new buildings constructed in the downtown area. I have heard that if there is another Core Area Initiative agreement that it will include housing as a priority, and I am pleased to see that.

In fact, I am pleased to see that the budget for the Department of Housing is increased this year over last year, that it will probably include job creation and training, especially job training. If that is the case, then we commend the three levels of gov ernment for making that emphasis. * {1 540) I have been told that it will include Main Street revitalization. Unfortunate ly, Main Street did not get very much attention in the first and second Core Area Initiatives.

So it is only appropriate that it be targeted for a third Core Area Initiative, but we are disa ppoin ted that the pro vincial governme nt's budget does not have money for a Core Area Ill or at least not very much money. We see with interest that the gove rnment did allocate $1 million to implem entin g the recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry. We know from reading the report that some recom mendations will actually cost the gov ernment less money, some will cost about the same, and some will cost mo re.

I do not know which recommendations will cost more, but certainly the report is quite honest on that score. We do not know the gove rnment's priorities yet, so we do not know how they will spend the $1 million implementing the AJI recom mendations . I did have occasion to be part of our caucus who met with a very interesting group from St. Theresa Point. They met with members of our caucus, and they met with the Minister of Justice {Mr. McCra e), and they pointed out that they have been running their own youth court since, I think, 19 84, and doing

14 38 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA March 19 , 19 92 so without using gove rnment funds. I believe the last two or three years, they were funded by the Mani toba Law Foundation. They were quite discouraged when they met with us. They did not think they were goin g to get any money from the gov ernment, but, in fact, the Minister of Justice came through, and I believe they did get funding for their youth court at St. Theresa Point. They said to us, you know, we have been doing this very cheaply since 19 84. We have been doing it very successfully since 19 84.

We have been doing it on our own; we have not had judges being flown in at great expense to St. Theresa Point. I conclude from that that if it works at St. Theresa Point, and they claim that it is successful-they say they have had fewer youth in front of them every year since 19 84-that it could be replicated all over Manitoba on reserve communi ties. If that is the case, then it could save the government thousands of dollars.

It would seem to make sense to have it administered locally, and the people who run it be aboriginal people in keeping with the recommendations of the Aboriginal Justice Inquiry, and that it be a diversionary program which in essence it is. Instead of criminalizing people , what they do is they off er them commu nity work, and that is supervised by the whole commu nity. They have business people who are involved ; they have a cross-

section of their co mmun ity Involved in supervising young people on comm unity work. Hit can be successful, and it has been proven to be successful in St. Theresa Point, then there is no reason why it cannot be replicated across the prov ince. So, in this case at least, we have an example of a recommendation from the AJI that can be implemented and save the gove rnment money. We do, howe ver, believe that the recommen dations of the report are so important that they should be impleme nted, and they should be implemented as quickly as is feasible in con junction with aboriginal people in Manitoba.

We were disappointed to read in the budget that the Crocus Fund, a fund created to help employees buy out companies, has been changed from what, I believe, last year was a grant of $2 million, to this year a loan of $2 million. It would appear that the go vernment has reneged on this promise to labour. Hon. Har ry Enns (Mi ni ster of Natural Resources}: Oh, no. Mr. Martind ale: The memb er for Lakeside disagrees with me, but unless he can provide evidence to the contrary, it seems that this has been changed from a grant to a loan.

I think that organized labour was disappointed to find that in the budget, and so were we. I listened very closely, yesterday and the day before, to the member for Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld), and I disagree with many, many things that he said. In fact, I highlighted them in Hansard, and I think these would make some good quotes in the next election campaign If we were to quote the member for Rossmere as being a representative of the Conse rvative Party, and saying some pretty amazing things on the record .

Howe ver, there is one area that I agree with the member for Rossmere, and so I would like to quo te the part that I agree with him. He talks about a partnership. In fact, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) talks about partnership as well, although I noticed that in his speech on the first page he only talked about partnership between government and business, but I guess he redeemed himself a little bit because on the second page he talks about a strong partnership among government, business and labou r to capitalize on e very new opportunity to create jobs and build a strong econom y.

I thought that the member for Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld) was actually much clearer on this subject. He said, "I sugges t to you that we work together -labour, industry and gove rnment. It is up to government to ensure that labour and industry work toget her co-opera tively. It is up to government to bang heads together if they do not . . . . It is up to gov ernment to make sure that the industry properly looks after their workers ." Hansard, March 18 , page 13 76. So I commend the member for Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld) because this is an idea that the NDP has been promoti ng for years. In fact, our Leader (Mr.

Doer) and our caucus have been saying we want an economic summi t. We want the go vernment to get business and labour together and to talk about ideas that can be implemented by all three sectors in Manitob a- An Honourable Member: Business and labour. Mr. Martindale: Busin ess and labour. The go vernment has not been listening to this message, but the member for Rossmere has. The member for Rossmere is promoting business and labour and

March 19 , 19 92 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 14 39 gove rnment co-operat ing. So, even though there are many ideas in his speech that we cannot endorse and we total ly disagree with, on this one idea the member for Rossmere is right. An Honourable Member: But you are both unable to .... Mr. Martindale: Well, the member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) says that we cannot achieve it. An Honourable Member: Philo sophically, you cannot. Mr.

Martindale: Since we are not in gove rnment it is difficult for us to achieve It, but the gove rnment, they are the gove rnment of the day, and they could achieve it if they had the political will to do so. I think it is instructive to look at the economies of Japan and West Germany, to take just two examples of very successful econ omies, and see what happens there. Well, one of the things that I think is responsible for their successful economies is the fact that business and labour and gove rnment do co-operate . They help to plan the economy together. I think, if the Minister of Finance (Mr.

Manness) and his gove rnment here in Manitoba wanted to speed an economic recovery, that they would follow these examples of Germany and Japan and bring labour into the picture and co-operate not just with business but with labour, so that all three groups co-operate as the member for Rossmere (Mr. Neufeld) said. They could all be equal partners. (interjection] The member for Inkste r (Mr. Lamoureux) is talking about who feels comfortable in which party. I think that we have no difficulty with small businesses, as New Democrats.

In fact, we have some small business people in our caucus, a couple of them that own their own business. Mr. Lamoureux: What about big business? Mr. Martindale: The member for Inkster asked me about big business. Well, we have a problem with multinational corporations if they are not willing to invest unless the incentives and tax concessions are so good that it is in their self-interest to invest. So we disagree- An Honourable Member: Is that not what small business does too? Mr. Martindale: We do not have any problem with small business. We want to encourage small business.

I think our quarrel is mainly with multinational corporations that get the bulk of tax concessions and tax incentives from go vernments, mostly from the federal go vernment, but from time to time from the provi ncial government. For example, the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) in his budgl>t reduced the tax on locomo tive fuel, which we do not think will create any jobs. It just helps the bottom line of Canadian Pacific and Canadian National. It does not really make them more competitive .

It maybe brings the taxes in line with other pro vinces, but really just gives them a little bit more money, reduces their operating costs. • (1 550) In con clusion, Madam Deputy Speaker, I believe that the most important issue in the next provincial election will be whether or not the public is in fa vour of one of two ideas. Whether they think that keeping taxes down is the major issue, or whether they believe that creating jobs is the major issue. I know that in the Burrows constitu ency the majority of people are in favou r of job creation.

It will be interesting to see if the majority of people and the majority of constitu encies in Manitoba agree with the government who are pushing keeping taxes down , and almost nothing else, except, of course , spending more money on welfare, or whether they agree with me and my party that the most important issue is job creation . I believe that people want and expect the gove rnment to stimu late the economy and to create jobs. I think that, pro bably, come the next election, the majority of Manitobans will agree with that point of view. Thank you , Madam Deputy Speaker. Hon.

Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Madam Deputy Speaker, it is a privilege to rise and speak on the budget. This is rather unorthodox that the minister would rise atthis particular point in time; but, because of the fact that we brought down the budget on Wednesday and, indeed, voting day is called for tomorrow, it does provide some diffe rences with respect to the order in which we speak. Madam Deputy Speaker, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) will close debate tomorrow before we are sum moned to the House to vote on this very important piece of legislation .

Madam Deputy Speaker, when we were crafting the budget, there were certain elements that we could not disregard . We recognized that we had been working very hard, certainly within Treasury

14 40 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA March 19 , 19 92 Board , within all the ministries of go vernment, to try and work around the margins, trying to split off those areas of government progr amming, after evaluation for the most part, that indeed we fo und were no longer of the highest priority. Now member s opposite over the course of not only this budget but budgets before this, and, indeed, in Question Period on a daily basis, have berated this gove rnment for turning attention away from various aspects of gove rnment progr am.

They said that we were, using their words , reducing funding here, there, and they pointed out certain program areas. They were able to find in some cases the odd line within the Estimates package where indeed there was a nominal reduction in funding. Madam Deputy Speaker, throughout all of the deliberations around the budgetary decisions, we acknowledge that we had to maintain a high priority in areas like Health and - Education and Family Services.

So, when this government, during these difficult times of rev enue reductions and revenue restraints, was able to contribute in this budget $200-plus million to the high priority areas of gove rnment, I say that we did relatively well under the circumstances. We were also very mindful that, when we were crafting the budget, Madam Deputy Speaker, we were bringing our budget down at least two weeks before any other jurisdiction in Canada. As a matter of fact, I am willing to bet that most budgets will not be brought down even a month from today as I stand here.

Some of the more significant budgets might not even be brought down until the beginning of May. What we had here was a go vernment who, in some respects, with the co-operation of the opposition had been working hard over the last two years to try and mo ve us into some type of synchronization with respect to when we come into the House and do our business.

Still you had a gov ernment, in spite of that, who was wanting to bring this budget down early and indeed give Manitobans an opportunity to once again look into the fiscal framework of our pro vince, to once again get some understanding of the path that we wanted to follow philosophically and , more importantly than anything, realize that there was a government here who was going to protect tax increases. In other wor ds, we were not going to submit to the easy path, and indeed I have called the NDP path, and that is cont inuing to levy higher levels of taxation.

I will speak to that in a little greater detail in a moment. I have listened, for the most part, to most of the presentations made by members opposite although maybe I have not been in attendance. I certainly have been in my office and I have heard the feed that has come from the House, and I have heard most of the presentation by members opposite. Quite frankly, if one had to summarize from my point of view most of the criticism, not too much of it objective, that has come from the opposition benches, I would summarize it and say it is muted criticism at best.

I have not heard a heavy attack on the thrust of this budget. We have been accused- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Manness: No, that is one of the unfortu nate elements because I am not speaking last. There are some other speakers and I imagine there will yet be some other criticism, but the reality is that members opposite have a difficult time attacking this budget because they, too, like many of the members of government side, are also knocking on the doors of their constitu ents.

Last night we were in the constituency of Cresce ntwood, many of us, and talkin g to Manitobans and, of course, one does not have to open too many doors when one realizes that foremost on the minds of almos t every person that you speak to is taxes. Even more so-whereas in 19 81 when I knocked on doors, in 19

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-3-33
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 3rd hansardpdf 33.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	239c77c9faf833ce20e05e6521d2c551f042209b

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