LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, 22 April, 1985. rime - 2:00 p.m. ::>PENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. lll R. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting =!eports By Standing and Special Committees . MINI STERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REP ORTS RE TURN TO OR DER NO. 20/84 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourabl e Minister of Mu nicipal Affairs. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker , I have Return to Order of the House No. 20 dated January 9, 1984, on the motion of the Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . .

Introduction of Bills ... INTR ODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions, I should direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery, where we have 11 visitors from the Kirk ness Adult Centre. The visitors are under the direction of Miss Blain and they are from the constituency of Fort Rouge. There are 90 students of Grade 9 standing from the Carman Collegiate under the direction of Mr. Jones and Mr. Johnston. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Pembina. There are 30 students of Grade 11 standing from the Sisler High School under the direction of Mr. Gartner.

The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for lnkster. On behalf of all of the members I welcome you here this afternoon. Also, before Oral Question Period, I should inform the Ho use that Ha nsar d has been experiencing difficulties with their telecommunication lines to the typesetter. Technicians are working on the problem and hope to have it cleared shortly. However, this problem might cause delays in the delivery of the printed Hansard for the next few days. Hansard for last Wednesday and Thursday were received from the pri nters late on Friday.

ORAL QUESTIONS Grand Va lley Park, Brandon Construction of water slide MR. SPEAKER : The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question is for the Minis ter of Natural Resou rces. It has to do with the water slide being proposed for the Grand Valley Park west of Brandon. My question to the Mini ster is: Was his department aware of the existence of the Indian burial ground when permission was given to locate the slide there? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Natural Resources. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Speak er, I am led to belie ve that they were fully aware, and within the confines of the agreement, there is protection for those things that the province is vitally interested in. MR. G. FILMON: Did the department have discussions with archaeologists, such as Dr. Leigh Sims and others, prior to making that decision? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, since this matter evolved long before I was involved with the department, I would have to take that question as notice. MR. G.

FILMON: I wonder if the Minister would indicate whether or not his department is prepared to reconsider the matter, now that considerable controversy has arisen and opposition to the proposal has come forward. HON. S. USKIW: Well, I'm sure the member would app reciate the fact that there is an agreement in effect at the moment and is binding on both the government and the private sector, per se; therefore, I don't believe that there is any option for the government but to honour the terms of the existing agreement. Advertising campaign, NDP - booking of Vancouver agency MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker , my question is for the Premier and I wonder in view of the fact, I'm given to understand, that the current advertising campaign by the New Democratic Party on radio and billboards is being booked by an advertising agency from Vancouver, I wonder if the Premier could indicate whether that decision to uti lize a Vancouver agency is to avoid any possible leak to local people of information on it, or because there is no Manitoba agency capable of handling the work? MR. SPEAK ER: Order please.

Ma y I remind the honourable member that he should ask questions of matters which are within the administrative competence of the government. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker , I'm assuming that as Leader of the New Democratic Party, the decisions of the party are within the administrative competence of the Premier. My question to the Premier is: Could he indic ate whether or not the decision to book those ads by an 1094 T O M R

Monday, 22 April, 1985 agency from Vancouver is as a result of the fact that they believe there's no agency capable of doing the work here in Manitoba? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The honourable member should restrict his questions to matters which are within the admin istrative competence of the government, not about an outside body. School libraries - Material classification and approval MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minis ter of Education in view of the statement and letter by the Manitoba Association of School Trustees and their policy and attitude toward HE Rizons magazine, etc. Can the Mi nister now clarify who is responsible for classifying material that is in the school libraries and what corrective measure she intends to take to make sur e that isn't confusing signals, messages and endor sements sent out from fellow Mi nisters? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Sp eaker, I think when this question first came up in the House a number of weeks ago I did indicate at that time that we recognized, both the Mini ster of Culture and I, that there were some problems with the procedure for approving materials between two departments. I indicated and made a commitment at that time that we were undertaking a review of the policies and the procedures for approval. I will, in the very near future, be announcing and clarifying and updating what the present policy and procedures are, and communicating the tightening up or improved procedures to deal with the problems that arose.

HERizons Magazine - Disapprova l by MAS T MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the Minister whether she also accepts the comment of the MAST organization that HERi zons magazine is unacceptable and inappr opriate for students? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker , what I do accept is the recogn ition in the letter and the part of the letter that addressed the question of local autonomy and in dealing with that they were raising some concerns about materials in the schools, but very, very clearly saying, Madam Mi nister, we think that we do not want any interference with local autonomy; we believe that the schools and school boards have both the ability and the right to make to make decisions.

So in terms of saying, do I agree? - what I agree with is the school board's indication that they do not want any interference with local autonomy and they want to be able to carry out their duties. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker , I would also ask the Mini ster whether she appreciates the point made by the trustees that in view of the negative tone of the magazine, particularly in the anti-Catholic, anti-male spheres, that the publication is in fact, in conflict with the government 's stated in tention to promo te multiculturalism, harmony, good attitudes and good feelings in our society? MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

Does the honourable mem ber wish to reph rase his qu estion to seek information rather than opinion? The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker , I simply ask the Mini ster whether she recognizes the comment or criticism that the government's stated aim of multiculturalism is in fact being su bverted or destroyed by the kind of material in this publication? HON. M. HEMPHILL: What I recognize, Mr.

Spea ker, once again, is the ability of locally elected school trustees who are elected to represent their community, to recognize the different traditions and values that their communi ties hold, and to do the job that they were elected for and to make decisions like that about what is appropriate or inappropriate material for their schools. Midcontinental Magazine - Withdrawal from school libraries MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Spea ker, I then ask the Min ister how she can defend her actions where, in the case of Midcontinental Magazine, she immediately ordered all librarians to withdraw it, and for the past 30 days has been dragging her heels in regard to a similar or worse publi cation. MR. SPEAKER: Orde r pl ease. The question is argumentative. Would the honourable member wish to rephrase his question to seek information? MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Spe aker, I would simply ask the Mi nister on what basis she ordered the withdrawal of Mi dcontine ntal , if that was not tantamount to interference, as she calls it? HON. M. HE MPHILL: Mr.

Speaker , I think I was quite clear on what the reasons were for orde ring the withdrawal of Midcontinental the day that I withdrew them. I'd love to refresh your memory, and the memory of the members opposite. I think they will remember that the withdrawal took place within an hour or an hour and a half of this being brought to our attention, and the reason that I ordered the withdrawal of that was because of the identif ied confusion about whether or not the Department of Education was, or had reviewed and approved that material.

We said, in the Chamber that afternoon, the Mi nister of Culture stood up in this Chamber and said that there had been a mistake made. The letter that 1095

Monday, 22 April, 1985 went out to school divisions that said the Department of Education had reviewed the material and app roved the material was not correct, that error was admitted that first day. Because it's on the record and because we did not want any misunderstanding that school divisions would have accepted material that they believed had been reviewed and recommended by the department to take place, we ordered the withdrawal so that it would be clear that were they doing it based on our recommendation.

We were making sure they knew that this was inappropriate material and had not been recommended by the department. MR. R. !JOERN: Mr. Sp eaker, I would then ask the Min ister, on the basis of what distinction did she order the withdrawal of one magazine and not the other? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker , I do not belie ve that we have the same misunderstanding about the other magazine. The material that was brought here, brought to our attention - as soon as we saw it we realized it was inappr opriate material. We made that information available to the schools immediately.

It had been brought to our atte ntion that ther e is very inappr opriate material on this list. I then reminded them, Mr. Spea ker, that we did not review periodicals and magazines and approve them in the Department of Education, nor have we done it since 1979. I think when the members opposite were there, they were not reviewing material. We leave that up to school divisions; it's the best place for decisions like that to be made and we continue to endorse and suppor t their pro fes sional ability to make those decisions. Family life and Sex Education Course - Status of MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. On two occasions in this new Session, I have asked the Minister of Education to provide for me if she could, the

schedule with respect to the revision of the new Family life and Sex Education Course. The Mi nister has decided not to present that to me. Mr. Speak er, in the Scratching River Post, Mon day, April Sth, I read where Miss Brown, Health Education Consultant, indicated that the new revised course will be fine tuned in '86 with full provincial implementation expected in 1987. Can the Mi nister indicate whether the statement I just read is government policy and, furthermore, can she indicate how the new revised curriculum will be fine tuned in 1986? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: I think first of all the question of fine tuning of curriculum, Mr. Sp eaker, it's clear that when we develop new curriculum and we put it out into the field, we are either fine tuning or revising or reviewing it for a period of two to three years. Actually the review period for most normal curriculum is about two years after we put it into the field.

In this case, when we're dealing with particularly sensitive material, where there's a lot of publ ic interest and there's going to be a lot of public involvement, we are extending that period and it will be reviewed and under review for improvement, revisions and consideration for a three-year period before it goes out of the draft stage and is proved into final curriculum stage; so the fine tuning or the revisions, that process, is ongoing with every curriculum that we put out into the field and that's how it will be done.

In terms of the timetable and the policy, I can assure the member opposite that any announc ement on policy about timetable of this curriculum or any others will be made in this House, will be made at an appropriate time and will be made by me. Any other statements that are made about timetables or potential timetables or guides toward which they hope to work, are not, in fact, a reality until I have annou nced them.

As I said to the member opposite when he asked the question a couple of weeks ago, is that things are proceeding and when I am ready and at the point when I am prepared to announce both the timing and the implementation of this curriculum or any other, I will do it in this House. MR. C. MANlll ESS: Mr. Spea ker, I think it's high time that the Min ister made known specifically her plans on this issue because also in this article, Miss Brown said, "The optional units are not readily available for public scrutiny.

If the communi ty wants to have them, they are available, but you can't get hold of them unless you are in-s erviced unless the school wants to . . . " MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. If the honourable member has a question would he kindly pose it and not read from an outside document. The Honour able Member for Morris. MR. C. MA NNESS: Mr. Sp eaker , in light of this comment, could the Min ister tell us whether in fact a division can obtain a copy of this new curriculum, or can they only do so after they have made the decision to allow it to come into their school division before having seen it? HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, I'm interested in the member opposite's quoting from the Scratching River Post; there are a few qu otes from the Scratching River Post that I'd like to read into the record too that we may get a . . . - (I nterjection) - let's concern ourselves with the qua lity of education not political Brownie points.

When the member opposite says that he thinks it's high time that I introduced it or announc ed it, I want to remind him that they have been raising a number of concerns and a number of qu estions about the curriculum and about what it's going to say and how it's going to be implemented and surely, Mr. Speaker, they're not asking me to rush it or put it in before we've had the proper amount of time to do it properly. They're surely not saying, put it in before it's ready, before you've given it the thought and the time and the attention.

Surely what he wants is a good curriculum, good imp lementation, protected involvement for the parents and the public, and whatever time is necessary to do that properly, he should be respecting that, not just wanting to push it through when It's not properly ready. 1096

Monday, 22 April , 1985 So when we've spent the time that we need to spend developing a good curriculum, we will present it. In terms of whether or not school divisions can now get copies, when the Department of Education is in the process of writing curriculum we do not make it available to school divisions even if they tell us they're thinking of im pl emen ting when it's com pleted. When it's completed and we are ready to put it out into the field, they will be notified and it will then be available for them to see. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Sp eaker, I was not quoting the Scratching River Post, I was quoting Miss Mary Brown, the education consultant paid for by the Minis ter. Mr. Speaker , again, the question is - because the

article says that un less the schools are in-serviced, the imple mentation procedure has cont inu ed, school divisions will not be allowed to obtain that material, so the question was rather straightforward. My final supplem entary, Mr. Speaker , to the Minis ter. I understand the Winnipeg School Division is now teaching the optional Family Life and Sex Education course. Have they received clearance from the Min ister, in light of her August 1984 statement in which she indicated that no school divisions within the province were to teach the new curriculum? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker , I'll remind the member opposite that what I did say when I announced that the department was stopping the piloting of the provincial curriculum, is that there had been for a period of the last, actually 10 or 20 years, a number of school divisions in the province - I think about 20 of them - who have been teaching family life programs for years and have not had any difficulty or problem with it.

What I did say was that we were stopping the piloting of the provincial curriculum while we comple ted the writing of it, but that school divisions that were presently teaching family life programs and who had the authority to do so under the existing regulation and were teaching those family life programs when the members opposite were in government - and I don't remember, did you raise any concerns then? They were ent itle d to teach them under the regulations. They can make a decision at the local school board level to have the programs. They taught them then; they're teaching them now.

I said in my annou ncement they are able to, allowed to, and can continue teaching those programs until we complete the writing of the provincial program, at which time, they can then make a decision. Misericordia Hospital - Shortage of beds MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Health. This morning I received a call from a frustrated Manitoban whose mother was admitted by emergency and by ambulance to the Misericordia Hospital. She is in the hallway of the Emergency Ward and will be there for some two to three days.

I wonder if the Mi nis ter could in vest igate this circumstance and find out whether he can find a way around the problem at Mi sericordia so that this patient will not have to remain for some two to three days in the hall when she needs a hospital bed. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank my honourable friend for giving me notice of this. I might say that I had been made aware of this problem, as is the custom through staff, I've asked that an investigation be made and report given to me.

Manitoba Medical Services - Coverage outside the province MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker , on another su bject matter with the Minis ter - and I look forward to his report on the circums tance of this patient at Misericordia - could the Minister indicate whether under his policy that was announc ed several weeks ago about out-of-province medical billings for medical services obtained out of province, there will be any exceptions to the rules that Medicare in Manitoba will pay for health services obtained by Manitobans out of province and out of countr y? HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker , the people of Manitoba have been informed that in such a case they should, first of all, get the app roval of the Commission before lea ving and cer tainly there wi ll be some exceptions to that if there's a good reason for it. It's only fair that they should have another look at funding that. MR. D. ORCHARD: I thank the Min ister for that answer.

Then, a person desiring medical services outside the province which may or may not be available with in the Province of Ma ni toba can receive Ma ni toba Medicare compensation for those services out of province or out of country if app roved by the MHSC, is that the indication the Mi nister has made? HON. L. DESJARDINS: That's correct. Sugar beet industry - Assistance to MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: My question is to the First Min ister.

Now that the Federal Government has resolved the issue of the federal transfer payments and the province has received an additional $50 million for this year; keeping in mind also that the Federal Government has put at least $8 million on the table for preservation of the sugar beet industry, have the First Mi nister or any of his Mi nisters had a meeting with the Manitoba Company to ensure that the jobs in that plant in effect for the balance of the year and will be to look forward to a continued operation at that plant? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. HON. H.

PAWLEY: First, I think we should rectify a misimpression on the part of the Honour able Member 1097

Monday, 22 April , 1985 for Fort Garry . The Federal Government has not remedied the situation by providing additional $50 million. They provided $50 million to what was $72 million owing to the Province of Manitoba. The Federal Government is $22 million short by right insofar as the Province of Manitoba is concerned. Mr. Speaker , we have received an indication from the Federal Government that they are proposing $8 million insofar as the Canadian sugar beet industry is concerned; but Mr.

Spe aker, what is missing on the of the Federal Government and what I've outlined way of Telex to the Prime Mi nister this past Friday is a clear and unequiv ocal commitment on the part of the Federal Government that they will ensure a long­ term policy insofar as ensuring the stability of the Canadian sugar ind ustry. Mr. Spea ker, anything less than that is really an abdication of responsibility on the part of the Federal Government in Ottawa. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you. Mr. Speaker , in light of planting season .

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Mr. Sp eaker. A supp lementary question to the First Min ister .

Keeping in mind that planting season for the sugar beet industry, the decisions on that must be taken within the next 10 days, kee ping als o in mind that his government pro vide d a job preservation loan to Westeel-Rosco, will the First Min ister or any of his Mi nisters be meeting with the Manitoba Sugar Company to ensure that the sugar indust ry, the manufac turing jobs, the trucking jobs that are associated with it, will survive the short term? What the First Mi nister is recommending is a long-term solution and we have to solve the problem right now. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable First Mi nister.

HON. H. PAWLEY: . . . sugar beet farmers of the Province of Manitoba as represented by way of their organization, but Mr. Speaker , I am looking for a long­ term solution. I am looking for a long-term solution commitment from the Federal Government now, not, after indeed we continue in an ad hoe way. Mr. Sp eaker, if the hono ur able mem bers want to continue to represent the government in Ottawa rather than the people in the Province of Manitoba, let honourable members continue to do so. Mr.

Speaker , I don't intend to permit the Federal Government to get out of their responsibility in respect to the sugar beet industry in Canada. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It was a simple question addressed to the First Mini ster: Had he met with the Mani toba Sugar Company to ensure that the company would be able to operate this year? If he hadn't, the next question was: Was he going to meet in the very near future so that this indus try could at least survive 1985? HON. H.

PAWLEY: I indicated in my previous response to the honourable member, yes, I am mee ting, the Mini ster of Agriculture and the Mini ster of Finance is meeting; as to whether or not we can guarantee the continuation of the industry, that depends, Mr.

Speaker, on whether the Federal Government responds in the positive to the Telex that was forwarded to the Prime Minister this last Friday, as to whether or not they're going to assume their proper responsibilities as a Federal Government in order to provide stabilization under the agricultural stabilization program to the sugar beet industry in the Province of Manitoba. MR. C. BIRT: The question I have for the First Mini ster is, when is he meeting and who is he meeting with in these statements he just made reference to? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Sp eaker, we've already met with the company; we're meeting with the farmers, it's my understanding, tomorrow. Titles to expropriated land north of Portage MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker , I have a question for either the Min ister of Urban Affairs or the Mi nister of Government Services responsible for land acquisition relative to the expropriation of land north of Portage Avenue, not involving the North Portage Development Corporation, but the land north of the Winnipeg Free Press, west of the Free Press and south of the Free Press building and including the Free Press building. Has the province now acquir ed title to all of those properties? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Urban Affairs. HON. L.

DESJARDINS: . . . the responsibility of the province to proceed with expropria tion and it should be made clear that it is a decision of the partnersh ip of the three levels of government and there is some concern that we have this, and we wish to discuss this with the partners at this time, we have some very true concern. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , then to the Mi nister of Urban Affairs, could he then inform the House as to whether titles have been acquired to all the property except the Winnip eg Free Press property and if so, what is the concern of the Provincial Government with 1098

Monday, 22 April, 1985 respect to obtaining title to the Winnipeg Free Press property? HON. 1... DESJARDINS: Mr. Sp eaker, that has not been determined as yet. This was one of the the topics that we discussed - the question of the Winnip eg Free Press. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, could the Minister then indicate that title has been acquired to all of the property except the Winnipeg Free Press property? HON. I... DESJARDINS: I'll have to take that as notice; I don't know if we have title of all the property. Driver testing - Gladstone and MacGregor areas MR. SPEAKER : The Honour able Member for Gladstone. MRS.

C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Spea ker. My question is to the Min ister of Highways. In light of the fact that there has been a reduction in services of driver testing from two people every two weeks to one person every three weeks in the Gladstone and MacGregor areas, and this has caused a huge backlog in driver testing, will the Min ister reconsider the service to those centres? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Hig hways. HON. J. PI.OHMAN: Mr. Speaker , there has been no reduction in staff in that program.

There was some short-staffing in that area that caused some problems for the MacGregor-Gladstone area but that is being corrected at this time and everyt hing should be back to normal. There was a period of time where they were operating short-staffed until we could fill the positions. MRS. C. OLESON: Then the Min ister can assure me that there will be two testers every two weeks instead of every three weeks as it has been and the cutbacks will no longer exist? HON. J. PI.OHMAN: As I' ve ind icated, some improvisation was necessary during the period of short­ staffing and that has now been corrected.

As far as I am aware, the staffing has been put in place and so we should be back to the original schedule. If it was two times every two weeks, that's the

schedule it'll be on now. Oil Spill, Red River MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I would like to direct my question to the Honourable Minis ter of Environment and Workplace Safety and Health. I am advised that there has been more than 3,000 litres of un identified oil which has been leaking into the Red Ri ver in the Fort Ga rry area sinc e last Wednesday. Can the Min ister advise why it took his department more than 24 hours to contact the City of Winnip eg to contain and identify this leak? MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Mi nister for the Environment. HON. G.

LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I don't know where that information comes from. The department advised the City of Winnip eg within the hour that the oil was spilled, there was an oil slick on the Red River, and this was on the basis of calls received by our department. The City of Winnipeg got back to us on Friday , Mr. Sp eaker , and asked for some assistance. We responded, and within two hours of that we had staff - not within two hours of that - immediately, we had staff on the spot to assess the situation and within two hours of that we had contracted with a firm to start collecting the spilled oil. MR. A.

KOVNATS: Can the Honourable Minister advise me the exact time and date that his department advised the City of Winni peg as to this spill? HON. G. LECUYER: Yes, I can. As I indicated before, the calls came to the Environment Division, Mr. Spe aker, on Wednesday. The calls were returned to the city immediately following. The City of Winni peg got back to us at 11:30 on Friday and by 2:00 o'clock a company was already on the scene collecting the oil that had been spilled on the river. Oil Spill, Red River - Effect on Selkirk water MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr.

Sp eaker. I would like to direct this question to the Honourable First Mini ster, the Member for Selkirk. Can the Honourable First Min ister advise me whether he is aware of any effect of this spill on the drinking water in the Selkirk location? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Awareness is not a proper su bject for qu est ion period. Would the honourable member wish to rephrase his question to seek information? The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Can the Honourable First Mini ster advise what effect this spill in Fort Garry will have on the drinking water supply in Selkirk? A MEMBER: Ring around the tub.

MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Mi nister for the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I don't know if the members want the answer, because having a hard time here getting some silence. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Spe aker, the City of Selkirk doesn't presently draw any water from the Red River for drinking purpos es. 1099

Monday, 22 April, 1985 Hydro labour Agreement - Tabling of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker , I note the question that I asked to the Minister of Energy some time ago, the Attorney-General took as notice a few days ago, I repeat once more. Would the Minister of Energy table the Hydro Labour Agreement with the appropria te affirmative action clauses in it that sets out the programs specially designed for Northerners and for Natives as he had indicated he would some time ago? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour abe Mini ster of Energy and Min es. HON. W. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker , I apologize for not tabling that sooner. I believe that there's some tidying up on final wording being done and as soon as that's completed, I certainly will table it with the member. Tantalum Mining Corporation - Status of spodumene mining MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nour able Memb er for La Verendrye. MIR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Spea ker. I have a question to the Mi nister of Energy and Mines. About a year ago he tabled or had a ministerial statement dealing with a pilot project at Tantalum Mining Corporation, employing some 26 people for the mining and refining of spodumene.

I wonder if he could tell us whether or not that operation is continuing. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: I believe that there's a search under way for markets and there is a continuation of the project in some form, but I cer tainly would prefer taking the question as notice to bring back exact information for the member. Salt water contamination - Spill in Virden MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. H. GRAHAM: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker . Last fall I contacted the Mini ster of the Environment regarding a salt water spill in the Virden area.

Can the Minis ter gi ve me an up date on the salt water contamination that has occurred at that place and whether or not there's been any detrimental effect this spring? MR. SPEAKER : The Ho nour able Min ister for the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Mr. Speaker , the monitoring and analysis of the situation there is ongoing and has not been completed. Grenada Demonstration Inquiry Report - Cost of MR. SPEAKER : The Honour able Mem ber for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, last week the Attorney­ General undertook to inform the House as to the costs of legal aid incurred in the Grenada Inquir y.

I wonder if the Attorney-General has those figures with him today. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HOii!. R. PENNER: No, Mr. Speaker, I haven't received them yet. Flyer Industries - Discussion with flexible Co. MR. SPEAKER : The Hon ourable Mem ber for La Verendrye. MR. FI. BAlll MA lll: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I address my question to the Min ister responsible for Flyer Industries and would ask him whether or not the gov ernment or the Crown corpora tion, Flyer Ind ustries, has broken off talks with a U.S. based company called Flexible, who are also in the bus business in the United States? Mfl.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Spea ker. No, I believe that discussions are continuing with that particular company. Flyer Industries - Discussion with Ontario firm MR. FI. BANMA lll: I wonder if the Min ister could inform the House whether or not discussions with the Ontario bus manufacturer are also continuing? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, Mr. Speaker . flyer Industries - Instructions re new contracts MR. R. BANMAN: A sup plementary question, Mr. Sp eaker.

In light of the fact that the union president has expressed concern that Flyer is not out actively pursuing orders and that they feel that within a year or two there won't be any orders for Flyer to be filling, has the Mini ster asked the corporation not to entertain any new contract commitments? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, Mr. Sp eaker. Flyer Industries - Instruction to board MR. R. BAlll MAN: In light of the fact that it looks like there will not be very many contracts for Flyer to deal with in the next few years, I wonder if the Min ister could 11 00

Monday, 22 April, 1985 inf orm the Ho use as to wha t dir ection and what ins truction he has given the board with regard to the continued operation at Flyer? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The direction that we have given to the board of directors, as the majority or major shareholder in Flyer, is to operate it in the most efficient and cost-effective manner possible and at the same time to explore options for the long-term viability of that industry here in the Province of Manitoba. CCIL Closure - Status of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin­ Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speak er.

I will ask a question of the Honourable Min ister of Culture regarding Co-op Imp lements. Is the Co-op Implements deal finali zed? Have they decided they're going to remain in Manitoba or are they moving to Saskatchewan? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I expect an announc ement with regard to Vicon, the company tha t was looking at opera ting a similar operation to what was operated by Co-op Implements, I believe an announc ement will be made in due course. Tantalum Mining Corporation - Status of spodumene mining MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Energy and Mines. HON. W. PARASIUK: Earlier in question period, the Member for La Verendrye asked me a qu estion regarding the Tanco facility and what was being done with respect to the spodumene concentrate. I have had a chance to check into that and I'd like to report to him now.

There was a Federal EDP Grant provided in the spring of 1984 which was to help Tanco establish a pilot plan to pr oduc e a high purity , low iron spodumene concentr ate suitable for the ceramic and gl ass industr ies; and appr oxi mately 1, 050 ton nes of processed spodumene was shipped to Corning facilities for testing. Unfortuna tely, funding, under the EDP grant was discontinued in January of 1985.

However, Tanco is proceeding with the project using company funds and it's a matter now of working to improve the technical and marketing aspects and if that, in fact, would continue, would develop, the plant would process spodumene for sale. At present therefore it's being tested by Corning facilities in France and we're awaiting their response. Tantalum Minining Corporation - Number of Employees MR. SPEAKER : The Honour able Memb er for La Verendrye. 110 1 MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speak er.

I wonder if the Minister could inform the House how many employees are right now being employed by the Tantalum Mining Corpation. HON. W. PARASIUK: Yes, the information I have is that 26 employees are employed on the project and that there are follow -up discussions taking pla ce with Corning to determine whether, in fact, the spodumene could be used in the U.S. operations as well as in the French operations in France. MR. SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. HANSARD CORRECTION MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr.

Speaker , before Orders of the Day, I wonder if I could make a correction in Hansard. On April 15th, last Monday, I was praising the attitude and the determination of the Jets, who had elimina ted a very strong team, and I was quoted on Page 851 as saying that this was despite their captain and leader. No way do I want to accept responsibility if the captain doesn't dress and I want to assure all the members of this House that I meant despite the absence of their captain and leader. MR. SPEAKER: I'm sure that will be noted. ORDERS OF THE DAY ORDERS FOR RETURN MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C.

MANNESS: Mr. Speaker , I move, seconded by the Member for Lakeside, THAT an order of the House do issue for the return of the following information: 1. The complete adver tising budge t and advertising costs of the Government of Manitoba including all departments, agencies and Crown corporations showing placement and frequency of all ads in HE Rizons Ma gazine and in Midcontinental Magazine. 2. The total amount of all provincial grants made between November 1981 and March 31, 1985 showing the amount and date of each grant made to: (

i) HE Rizons Magazine; and (ii) Midcontinental Magazine. 3. The number of government staff who gave assistance to HE Rizons Ma gazi ne and Mi dcontine ntal Maga zine and their job descriptions and their salaries. 4. The numb er of dollar amounts of paid su bscriptions that the government subsribes to from: (

i) HE Rizons Magazine; and

Monday, 22 April, 1985 (ii) Midcontinental Magazine. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Sp eaker, I have discussed with hono ur able mem bers oppo site two reservat ions respe cting the ord er, and I belie ve that there is agreement to accept it su bject to those reservations on the part of both sides of the House. They are with respect to Item No. 1, Sir, that we're dealing only with, in terms of budget and advertising costs, the specific budget and advert ising costs allocated to those two magazines, not the whole of government.

The member is asking only with respect to th ose two magazines and he is asking for all advertising which flows through the advertising audit office, the government vehicle, not through any arm's length agencies which would not use the advertising audit office and which are not under the direct control of the government.

Sir, under Item 3, rather than reference to any phone call or letter, I believe what the honourable member is requesting here is information respecting the direct commitment of staff time from any government staff and has that understan ding that assistance refers to direct commitment of staff time, not the answer of an inqu iry or the processing of a letter or a request for a grant. We have no difficulty in answering that. Nos. 2 and 4, Sir, we can answer as provided. So, with those reservations, if they're acceptable to members opposite, we're prepar ed to accept the order. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Sp eaker. Mr. Spe aker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Mini ster of Health, that Mr. Sp eaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION prese nt ed and carried and the Hous e resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Su pply to be gr anted to Her Majesty with the Hono urable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Health, and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Natural Resources.

CONCURRENT COMM ITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - NATURAL RESOU RCES MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: Committee, please come to order . We are considering Item No. 5.(a )

(1) Parks, Admi nistration: Salaries; 5. (a)

(2) Other Expenditur es - the Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When committee rose the other day, I'd ind icated to the Min ister that some of the information that we'd be looking forward to at this stage of the game and I'd like to pursue that now in terms of how many parks or roadside parks were advertised for maintenance and operations under the private sector for this year? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. HON. S. USKIW: Just roadside parks or all parks? MR. A. DRIEDGER: All provincial parks and roadside parks. I believe, Mr.

Chairman, the understanding was that there was possibly close to 100. I don't know. I'd like have the Min ister indicate how many. I consider the differential between roadside parks and provincial parks and I know that some provincial parks have been in there as well. Maybe we can deal with the provincial parks and then the roadside parks. What we'd like to establish here is exactly how many, the rationale for it, and the process in which it was done. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Chairman, there are 115 wayside parks in Manitoba in total; 94 of those have been under contract for a number of years, so that really there aren't too many that have been operated by the department. MR. A. DRIEDGER: These are roadside? HON. S. USKIW: Those are roadside parks. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Fine, then we can maybe go into the provincial parks.

It is my understanding that some of our provincial parks have been tendered to the private sector for maintenance, and I wonder if the Mi nister could give us, first of all, the names of the parks; how many maybe, if it's substantial I'd like to have the names; and I'd also like to know the criteria in terms of how this was done. HON. S. USKIW: Could the member repeat the last point he made, the last comment. MR. A. DRIEDGER: I'll repeat the whole thing for that matter, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to know how many provincial parks have been categorized or looked at; how many were tendered; how many tenders have been accepted; and how many were rejected? I think we can save a lot of questions back and forth if the Mini ster would explain exactly what has happened and what the rationale for it is and how this process took place. HON. S. USK IW: Mr. Cha irman, ther e are four recreational parks that were tendered. Grand Valley, of course, is already behind us, because there is an agreement in place. Moose Lake, we received three submissions and there's been no decision made with respect to that one.

There were no submissions for Norquay Beach, so we will continue to operate that one. There were three submissions for Lynch's Point and there is some discussion under way there yet, it's not final. We're not certain whether or not we will move into the area of private operations this year or perhaps even next year on that one. 11 02

Monday, 22 April, 19 85 MR. A. DRIEDGER: We're getting a little late in the season for something to happen there and it's creating a lot of confusion in people's minds. I've had calls from people in the Moose Lake area and I know that some of my colleagues have had calls from some of the other areas. Maybe we should start from the beginning in this process to find out exactly how this procedure started to take place. Were these parks tendered publicly and, if so, what was actually involved in the advertising?

Could anybody make a submission, were there gui deli nes un der which the y could make a submission, or how did this process take place? HON. S. USKIW: Yes, there were guideli nes; they were advertised ; the proper publ ic pr oced u res were employed, the result of which is the answer I gave earlier. MR. A. DRIEDGER: I wish the Mi nister would elaborate a little bit more. I don't think they have a big secret here. I want to know, and I think the people of Manitoba want to know exactly the reason for the decision to go this route, the process that was anticipated.

Is this the start of a new direction that the department is considering? What is happening to the ones, for example, in Moose Lake, where no decision has been made, or Lynch's Point where also it's in limbo? There are major concerns for people who have cottages out there as to exactly what is going to happen, and I'm sure the staff itself is concerned as well because they are in a limbo situation themselves. I wonder if the Minister could maybe give us the story behind this whole thing. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, there is no major story there other than budgetary considerations.

It was deemed some months ago, perhaps even beyond that, that it might be possible to continue to provide a service in these areas without having direct involvement on the part of the government or the Parks Branch. Consequent ly, the tenders were opened up for those areas and we have not yet finali zed them. It may very well be that we will continue to operate all of them for another year. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Is this decision to go in this direction based on the economics of these parks? If this is the case, are we going to follow through on any park that is not economical to staff and run?

Are we going to use that app roach or are we ultimately looking at closing these parks? If economics is the reason, then I have a few things I want to pursue along that line. HON. S. USKIW: Essentially , these are low-use parks, Mr. Chairman, and there is a possibility that private sector people may improve upon that depending on the kind of service they might want to provide; but certainly with the level of service that was available through the Parks Branch, these parks were not utilized very well. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Well, in the proposals that the government and the department were looking at, whoever put in a proposal, did they have the option then of charging at the gate whatever rate they wanted, or would they be charging the normal provincial rate? If a person bought a provincial sticker, would he be able to go into these parks just like any other provincial parks if he had one of these stickers on? HON. S. USKIW: I'm advised that there were no entrance fees so the stickers have no relevance here. The utilization factor has no bearing with respect to stickers and payment of a fee.

The occupancy of Lynch's Point is a case in point that should be perhaps mentioned, by way of example, is only 19.9 percent, so that kind of gives you an idea as to what the utilization factor has been. It's a range of 22 percent to 19 percent over four years. Perhaps I should allude to the others as well. Moose Lake had an occupancy range of 13 percent to 14 percent over that fou r-year period; Norquay dropped from 31 percent to 17 percent from'81 to 1984. MR. A. DRIEDGE R: Un der the proposals the government was considering, would they then allow the successful bidder to charge rates at the gate? HON. S.

USKIW: Mr. Chairman, that's the point I was making, that if these are transferred over to the private sector, the uti lization factor may change, depending on what the private sector has to offer on-site and, of course, that'll be balanced off by the amount of fees that they charge for whatever service they do provide. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Since this action has been initia ted on these three and the Minister has indicated that because there were no enquiries even, I suppose, about Norquay Beach, but on the other two, Moose Lake and Lynch's Point, that there were enquiries and that no decisions have been made.

We're getting very close to the middle of May when fishing season opens. At what stage of the game is there going to be a decision made so that these people in the area know what's going on? HON. S. USKIW: The likelihood is that, even if we enter into an agreement with the private sector, that will not become effective till about 1986. That's a likelihood, Mr. Chairman. MR. A. DRIEDGER: So it would be fair to assume that for this year, these three provincial parks would still be the responsibility of government and people could expect service as usual as they've had in the past in these particular cases. HON. S.

USKIW: Well, certainly for the duration of this coming summe r, yes, I would expect so. MR. A. DRIEDGER: I just want to pursue the intent. If we're now going to have these provincial parks continue on this basis, is the government then going to open up the possibility of a variety, a much bigger portion of parks coming onstream for tendering to the public sector by next year? And how does this process work?

Is it based on occupa ncy, on the economics of it or if somebody enqu ires that, for example, they would like to put in a bid on the running of Falcon Lake Provincial Park, would they be able to do that, or is it strictly on the dollar value that they're not economical 11 03

Monday, 22 April, 1985 at this stage of the game that these decisions are going to get made? HON. S. USKIW: No, Mr. Chairman, it's not our intent to look at the major parks at all - campgrounds perhaps - but not necessa rily the parks. Parks are intended to be ope rated by the department. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Obviously, there is no decision made yet on two of these areas. Part of the concern, of course, has been raised by some of the staff that's working there as to what will happen with them. It is my understanding that staff cannot be laid off, that they would be transferred to other areas.

Is this what the intention would be? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the staff have been advised that there's no change. MR. A. DRIEDGER : For this year. HON. S. USKIW: Then I want to try and establish what this Min ister was asked before. Will there be an intention to pursue this kind of appr oach for next year then with these parks and other parks in terms of getting them into the private sector? HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, the member wishes me to gaze into the crystal ball. MR. A. DRIEDGER: I want to know what the Min ister HON. S. USKIW: Every thing has to hinge around our capacity to deliver services.

If there is a better way of providing a service, I'm sure we are prepared to consider that. On the other hand, we are committed to providing a fair amount of public service to the people of Manitoba through the Parks Branch. I don't think i would want to talk about it in terms of a blanket policy covering all situations. There may be some variation depending on local need, if you like. By and large, the policy is to continue with the public service. MR. A. DRllEDGER: Mr. Chairman, I want to indicate to the Min ister, I am not necessarily critical of the appro ach that is being proposed in this aspect of it.

All I'm trying to do is establish how this process is going to take place and I find it rather unusual for this government that they all of a sudd en would get conscientious about the cost factor in provincial parks when they are the ones by their own philosophy who would certainly not want to turn something like this over to the private sector, especially when there's a lot of concern from the people utilizing these parks. It seems very strange indeed. As I indicated, I am not being necessarily critical of it.

I just wanted to make sure as we go through this process that the services, if it goes into the private sector, I want to know exactly what's happening in terms of how it will be handled. That is why I have some interest as to exactly how this thing has developed and especially from this government. I find it highly unusual. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, I don't know why the member is worried about how government policy evolves. Pragmatism has never hurt too many people yet, I don't think, and I don't think it will if we continue with a pragmatic approach to that qu estion. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. With regard to Lynch's Point, you said there were three tende rs. I'm wondering if you're planning on implementing that, say, next year and the staff have been notified that they will still be hired this year, that really isn't too comforting to them when they realize that perhaps next year they won't have jobs. Is there anything being planned to take up the slack there so that those people can be assured of jobs? HOii!. S. USKI W: Mr.

Chairman, I believe that we have a continuing commitment with respect to jobs within the department, that is, if there are phase-outs in certain areas that we work by way of not filling vacant positions or redeployment; so ail of that has to be taken into account whene ver there are adjustments made. MRS. C.

OLESON: In the case of Lynch's Point, some of the staff that currently work there, I understand, did submit a ten der, and were rather disappointed that they don't seem to have been hired for that One of the things they are wondering about is why they were not interviewed and there was no discussion about their tender, because obviously you can't put everything down on the operations and the philosophy of running a campground on paper, in a tender. They felt that before they were let that all the people who tendered should enter into some discussion on it as to just how they were going to operate the campground.

HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, we haven't finalized that decision and it may not final ize till a year from now. In fact, I'm certain it won't be for this season. Whether we accept a proposal from staff, of course, would depend on the proposal. I'm led to believe that that wasn't the best proposal received in that there was still some suggestion within it that the government su bsidize the operation. There are proposals which do not require that but in any event I really don't want to get into discussing the individual proposals here. MRS. C.

OLESON: In the case of a private person operating the campground, who is responsible for law enforcement? Would it be consider ed a pr ivate campgrou nd, for instance, Lynch's Point, and would the RCMP be able to patrol that as they have always done? HON. S. US KI W: On ce we es tablish a park the operation as a business, then it's the business operators that are responsible for whatever the laws are and the enforcement thereof. The law enforcement agencies of the system, municipal or otherwise or provincial, have to be employed when the need arises. MRS. C.

OLESON: Well then, if it was taken over by a private person, is it considered to be private property or government proper ty? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, if we have entered into a lease arrangement, then a lease is the same as 11 04

Monday, 22 April, 19 85 ownership, as long as one has rights to the lease. It's the same as renting an apartment; it's really your home until you've decided to vacate or until you've been evicted, one or the other. So, you have virtually the rights of ownership. MRS. C.

OLESON: Well, in that way the RCM P wouldn't be able to patrol it as they would a public government­ operated campground in that it would then be private and they wouldn't just automatically take a swing through there on a regular basis because they would have to be called that there was a problem before they would be entering into private property? HON. S. USKIW: Well, as the member probably knows, the RCMP detachments throughout the province are concerned about protect ion of properties in their particular jurisdiction or districts.

I would presume they would add this to their catalogue of communities that they would be policing at whatever level they're able to police at. Perhaps some relationship would be established between the operator and the ACM Police for that service, or the proprietor may have their own personnel on hand for police purposes, if you like, security services, etc. MRS. C. OLESON: What control is your department going to have over standards that are maintained in a campground if it's put into private hands?

Is there going to be some agreement as a result of the contract that will say what sort of maintenance, what sort of equipment will be provided and who is it provided by? HON. S. USKIW: Yes, there are standards that are stipu lated and if those standards are violated then, of course, they could lose the rights to the lease, if you like, to the park. MRS. C. OLESON: Is the department going to allow someone who is successful in getting a contract to add concession booths and enter tainme nt-recreation facilities on their own?

I think there's some concern in this that some campgrounds may then become a sort of an amusement park and the people who go to a campground for a quiet weekend of camping, then their peace and quiet will be disturbed by this other type of thing. I think there's some concern in the area around Lynch's Point that will be what will happen to that particular campground. HON. S. USKIW: Local authority has jurisdiction under The Planning Act as to what happens.

We also would have to approve whatever developments take place on leased properties, given the fact that the leases are for a time definite and that the asset may be returned to the Crown either after the lease expires or even before, depending on performance. MRS. C. OLESON: What was the cost of operating Lynch's Point campground? What was the government cost? HON. S. USKIW: I'm told the cost of running or operating Lynch's Point was $70,000 last year and revenues, I gather, are almost non-existent. 11 05 MRS. C.

OLESON: Was there no process in place of collecting of camping fees and boat launching fees, say, just the way they do at other campgrounds? There's a booth there. Is nobody ever put in it to collect? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the only fees that we charge at Lynch's Point are camping fees so therefore the revenues reflect that. MRS. C. OLESON: The tender that proposes to put it into private hands, how long a contract would be signed for that? Is it a one-year or what's the term of the contract? HON. S. USKIW: That would depend on the nature of their investment, to a large extent.

If they are intending to make a major investment into the park, they could get a 21 -year lease, renewable; or conversely, a 5-year lease. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage la Prairie. MR. L. HYDE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to follow up on the item that the Member for Gladstone was speak ing on and tha t is the Lynch's Point campground. I have before me several names that have been put on a petition asking that the park be considered a major park facility for that particular area. I say that I have many names here and for the most part they come from the Portage area.

That's why I wish to speak on this particular issue. I understand, Mr. Chairman, that the department has chosen to tender out the campground, effective, is it next year, and I'm wondering what consideration was given to the parties that have been caring for that park for the last 22 years? Was any consideration given to their tender? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the fact is that we have Lynch's Point and we have St.

Ambroise nearby and there really isn't a need for both as a major park facility at this present time; so the logic is that Lynch's Point should continue as it is, under public or private operation, whichever. With respect to .con sideration to the tender s submitted to my staff, again that tender has to be judged on its merit, Mr. Chairman, in competition with the others that we have received. They usually speak for themselves, if you like, the tenders that is. MR. L. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, did I understand you to say that there's a possibility of closing down either or both of the two parks, St.

Ambroise and Lynch's Point? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I responded to the proposition that we develop Lynch's Point into a major park facility. My response was that we have St. Ambroise nearby which is, apparently , adequate for that area id that there really isn't a need for two; so that Lynch's Point would continue as it is, either through our O'Nn operations or as a private operation. MR. L. HYDE: I wonder if I could inquire from the Mini ster as to what is his plans for the Norquay Park.

Monday, 22 April, 1985 HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, it's business as usual, since we didn't get any interest on the part of the private sector for its opera tion, so we will continue to operate that. MR. l. HYDE: Mr. Chairman, was there consideration to tender that Norquay Park, put it out for tender? HON. S. USKIW: Yes, we did, and we didn't recieve any submissions. MR. l. HYDE: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: I understand that there have been some little roadside parks, like the one at Riverside, for instance, that have been closed down. Is that correct? HON. S.

USKIW: Where is Riverside? MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, it's on No. 10 Highway, on the Souris River, north of Boissevain and south of Brandon. It's my understanding that it was closed down last year.

It used to be managed by parks staff out of Turtle Mountain, but I believe it was shut down, not maintained any more, but on top of that it seems to me that people have been denied access to it, which strikes me as being most unusual, that even if it's not being maintained, why is it not possible at least for people who might be travelling with a camper to simply pull in there and stop and stay overnight if they want, for that matter, in a self-contained unit? HON. S.

USKIW: The usual problem is the answer, and that is that an unattended or unmanaged park area results in local complaints about its mismanagement and misuse, garbage problems and all sorts of things that arise from uncontrolled usage; so the policy is that when we vacate a park or close one down, then we don't leave it in a way that's convenient to attract business, albeit unsolicited. MR. B. RANSOM: Is that really rea sonable, Mr. Chairman? If there aren't enough people using it to be worth maintaining it, then surely there aren 't enough people using it to create any kind of a problem.

There aren't that many places where people can pull off the road with a camper, for instance, and simply make use of it. The Min ister's a practical, pragmatic sort of man, after his several years in politics that have shown him that some of his original ideas didn't function the way he thought they would. Wouldn't he think that this might be the kind of little, practical common-sense thing that might be done that wouldn't cause any great difficulty for anyone? HON. S.

USKIW: Well, I guess the real key problem is who picks up the garbage and if it's left there in a way that's un sanita ry and so on, people will complain about the environment - people from the local area. Un less we're prepared to have garbage pickup or whatever, then we have to consider whether we want to keep them open. I happen to sympathize with those views however, but ultimately the public, I think, would get supremely exercised over an uncared for park if it became untenable in the area. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr.

Chairman, surely it would be possible to put up a sign - God, this government puts up signs all over the province and all over television and everywhere else - put up a sign and say this park is not being maintained, use it at your own risk, we'd appreciate it if you'd clean it up. Send somebody in now and then and pick up the garbage. I happen to know, for example, that towards the end of the year - not in this past fiscal year, but the previous fiscal year - that there were funds left over for Parks in the Parks budget in that area.

In stead of turning the money back in, then they find ways of using it and spending it before the end of the year, so they had people hired at quite a high rate per hour, several dollars an hour, well above the minimum wage, to sit on the ski trails and count the number of skiers that go by. Now, surely it's more important to get out and pick up some garbage out of a roadside park than it is to count the number of skiers going by on a trail that you already have established and you're already maintaining, and you've already got facilities there for them.

I think it just requir es a little bit of direction maybe from the Mini ster to get some priorities set straight. HON. S. USKIW: If the member is talking about the Souris River Park - I gather that's what it is - we are at the moment negotiating a five-year agreement with a private person to look after that park. So, it's intended to be leased out, if you like, if that's the one. MR. B. RANSOM: That may be the one. Locally people call it Riverside. I can understand that bureaucrats come in from the outside and they name it something else, but local people call it Riverside.

If it's going to be set up and run - (I nterjection) - yes. If it's going to be set up and run, that's great, I'd be happy with that. I believe last year that it was not run and indeed it was closed. In the same line of quest ioning, Mr. Chairman. Does the Parks Branch allow people to camp in parks outside of the des igna ted campgrounds? For in stance, in hunting seasons can people go if they have a self­ contained camper truck, for instance, and park beside a lake where they're shooting ducks and camp there or can they pitch a tent? What's the practice of the Branch in that respect? HON. S.

USKIW: I'm advised that normally there are desig nated camping areas. Apart from that, if they wish to camp elsewhere they can do so by permit. It is permissible but it has to be known and permitted. MR. B. RAN SOM: Is that done under a specific regulation? HON. S. USKIW: I'm advised that the act and the regulations they're under allow for permits for specal uses. Under that

section it's possible to do that. MR. B. RANSOM: Could the Min ister cite the regulation for me? 1106

Monday, 22 April , 1985 Mr. Chairman, perhaps while they're looking that up I could place another question to the Mi nister. There is a regulation in place, Regulation 101.77,

Section 16(6) which says in effect that no person may ride a horse in a provincial park without written authority of the Director of Parks. I'm wondering, Mr. Chairman, whether the Mi nister would really regard that as a reasonable restriction on the use of a park like Turtle Mountain, for instance. HON. S.

USKIW: I would imagine to give consideration to all the users of a park - I'm not familiar with that particular one, at least not to any great degree - that there would have to be areas over which that might be permitted, but indiscriminate usage I would question because that may impinge on rights of other park users that are involved in other activities. It's a matter of compatibility I presume.

Common sense perhaps makes the best rule in that respect, but I would think if it was unregu lated completely then we would have as the former Premier said here the other night, he, when he was a child and his children didn't get run over by all­ terrain vehicles on the delta, but he's worried about his grandchildren. There is need for some form of regulatory methods, if you like, in order to protect the various interest groups that are using a park. Otherwise, you could have chaos.

A herd of horses thundering down on playgrounds. - (I nterjection) - It's a matter of respecting the other uses that are being made in the parks. I wouldn't say it shouldn't be permitted, no, but I don't think it should be indiscrimina tely permitted. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, I don't think that the Mi nister is going to get any disagreement on the necessity for some form of control. It's pretty standard as I understand it as a layman, that in the British Common Law that people basically are allowed to do anything which is not prohibited by law.

The general appro ach that has been taken in park management in this province is that nobody may do anything in a park unless permitted by the law. That happened to be a reg ul ation that was passed in 1977, a min isterial regulation that never saw the light of discussion around the Cabinet table, let alone ever come before any legislativ e comm ittee. It seems to me it's a sill y regulation. The Member for lnkster asks across the table a perfectly logical question - why didn't I do away with it when I was the Min ister. If I had known the son of a gun was there, it would never have lasted.

All I'm suggesting to the Mi nister is, why can't it be approached in a lttle more common-sense way, the way it's approached with respect to hunting, for ins tance, where they say that there are certain areas where you can't hunt - you can hunt anywhere in the park except. Now, surely in a park like Turtle Mountain, where the trails that exist in that park, exist because people use horses in there to get wood out and to get hay out.

That's why the trails are there, and surely that regulation should be taken from the books and something else, with a little more common sense put in, because I think when it came right down to it, Mr. Chairman, that if I rode my horse down one of those roads through that park and challenged it through the court system, you couldn't win anyway; so I would hope the Mi nister would just make one little concession on something like that and have the thing changed. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, there's a lot of validity in what the member suggests and I certainly will take it upon myself to examine the regulation because I too am unaware of its existence. I agree that common­ sense approaches are always the best ones and I'm prepared to take a look at that. MR. B. RANSOM: I appreciate, Mr. Chairman, that the Minis ter will have a look at that. I have just a couple of other questions for the Min ister. Has he made any changes in the written policies of the Parks Branch?

Perhaps I should have asked, first of all, are there still written public statements about the direction that the government is taking with respect to managing parks and, secondly, has the Minister made any changes in them? HON. S. USKIW: I'm told that the department does function under a policy document which I, quite fran kly, haven't seen yet. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Min ister would provide me with a copy of the most up-to-date policy for parks. HON. S.

USKIW: I'm advised, sir, that the member who is pursuing the line of questioning enshrined that particular document within this department. It hasn't been changed; it's still the same way. MR. B. RANSOM: I'm pleased to hear that then, Mr. Chairman. I highly recommend it to the Mini ster for his reading enjoyment. Just a couple of final, small questions with respect to Turtle Mountain Park.

Some of the members, and I know the staff, will be aware of the fact that there are large numbers of moose frequenting that park now in a way that never was the case a decade ago or before; and it is my feeling that the department is going to be faced with some sort of control measure before very long.

I'm wondering how they plan to app roach that, whether it's going to be approached as an opportunity to make use of the resource that's there, to provide recreation through hunting or whether it will be app roached from the point of view of a problem, and as the numbers build to problem level, something will be done to control it. What would the Mi nister's view be on that? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that in Turtle Mountain we treat it as a recreational situation rather than a control problem, with respect to hunting regulations. MR. B.

RANSOM: I take that to mean then that the staff will be looking ahead with a view that at some point in time there may, in fact, be a hunting season, whether it's with bow and arrow or muzzleloaderc or whatever, as the numbers increase to the point there is indeed a surplus to be harvested. HON. S. USKIW: I gather the member's referring to the moose population in the area. MR. B. RANSOM: Yes. Thank you. 11 07

Monday, 22 April , 1985 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin-Rus sell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to ask the Mi nister what he and his staff have in mind for the Duck Mountains under the Parks Branch for the planning year ahead; and they can take a look at Asess ippi as well and give me some idea of those two areas.

The Duck Mountain, Shingo ose, Gyles and the Blue Lakes are very popular areas and, as we talked here the other day, they're still looking for hydro services at some future date, if we can ever find the dollars to put it in there - popular places and certainly there's a great potential for growth there if they ever do provide them with electrical services especially . Ases sippi, as I was asking the other day, they're still waiting for showers and it's extremely popular for its fishing.

The Shellmouth Reservoir hit the National News last year, I think, three of four times because of the pickerel grounds that have developed in the area. They were coming there from all over the Northern States, Saskatchewan and Alberta, people that never dreamt they would be driving that far for a fishing ground, but it became extremely popu lar. Yet there's also the possi bility of a ski development. They talked about developing an airstrip and those types of things.

Can I ask the Min ister, does he ever see the day when they would start collecting fees at Ases sippi, because all the people that were patronizing that area last year and there's nobody there to collect a cent from them? These are people that have dollars, can afford to pay to go in and use the service. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the last point that the memb er raises is a matter tha t's been under consideration and we have yet to make that decision, whether we will set up a facility for the collection of day use fees.

The member perhaps is aware there is a shower facility that's going to be built at Ases slppi. With respect to the Duck Mountains generally , there's a management guideline in preparation for the area and hydro services, I don't know - nothing's plan ned there. There are some minor projects planned for the Duck Mountain Provincial Park, complete 2A washrooms, an upgr ade campground at Blue Lake and silva culture, upgrade and improve fishing access points at Gull, Two Mile and Beautiful Lakes. MR. W.

McKENZIE: Can I ask the Min ister, regarding the Shellmouth Reservoir and the fishing experiences that were enjoyed there last year, there is a lot of concern in the area now that the department has the resource and maybe the money to put the fingerlings in to replace that huge fish population. We can deal with that under the Fishing

section - maybe it will be more appropriate then to deal with it there. I just wonder, what about the development of skiing facilities at Asessi ppi? There's been a group working actively, rather than have this private entrepreneur at the Roblin area, to set up one ski facility at Asess ippi that would fill the demands of the area. Are there any ongoing meetings?

Last year I instructed some of the people in the area that contacted me to get in touch with the department and sit down with them and see if we can't come up with a plan to fulfill the demands that are there because the ski slopes at Roblin are on the west side, and they don't stand up to the sun that we get sometimes in the wintertime. Has anything been done in that field? HON. S. USKIW: With respect to ski facilities, my understanding is that the department would encourage local groups that might develop ski trails in the area, but that's for cross-country skiing. Downhill, I don't think we're doing anything.

I'm not sure how much we should push that because of the ski hill at Agassiz. You know, I think government has to be cognizant of the fact that we mustn't undermine the operators that we do have by way of too many options available, if the ones already there aren't being sufficiently utilized. That's my own off-the-cuff response. I don't know what the utilization factors are with existing ski slope capacity, but before I would want to encourage the development of new areas at public expense, I would want to be satisfied that we're not undermining others that are already in existence. MR. W.

McKENZIE: The Minis ter likely is not aware - last year the concession at Asessippi was let out, it was tendered to somebody east of Winnipeg here and I got a lot of concern from the local people, some in fact had been involved with the previous concession owner. Are they satisfied with this concession operator? The flak is still flying out there and I was just wondering if it's settled down as far as the de partment is concerned. HON. S. USKIW: Well, I'm informed that that was the best submission that we had and I guess we have to look at it in that way, Mr. Chairman.

Just because one is local doesn't mean that one is able to perform or has put forward the best proposal, although logically, one would want that opportunity to be available to local entrepreneurship, if you like. But in the end, we have the responsibility of looking at all of the appl ications. MR. W. McKENZIE: Can I ask the Mi nister if there have been any more protests coming from municip al or Chambers of Commerce on that? HON. S. USKIW: I'm told that there are only a few problem areas that are yet to be ironed out with the concessionaire but apart from that there is really nothing that is happening. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose has a question? MR. A. ADAM: I was wondering if the Mini ster could advise what the policy is on rental of parking spaces in our parks. I'm thinking particularly of Mani pogo - whether there's been any change in policy, whether it's a first-come, first-served, or seasonal, or weekend. What is the policy on that? HON. S. USKIW: Yes, we have two-staged appr oach, I am advised. One is the draw and then after that, it's first-come, first-served. MR. A. ADAM: Are there any parking spaces kept in reserve for weekend parking? Are they all up for draw? 1108

Monday, 22 April, 1985 HON. S. USKIW: I'm told that we do retain some for that purpose; some are seasonal and some are transient sites, so there is that opportun ity. MR. A. ADAM: I'm thinking particularly of the senior citizens who may come out on weekends for a couple of days, whether there are sufficent spaces. They may be coming from 60 miles, or 70 miles . . . HON. S. USKIW: If we do run out of space in a given time, we do allow people into the overflow areas. It may not be serviced well, but we will accommodate them. MR. A.

ADAM: It is not possible then, for anyone to come in on a weekend and, say, leave a tent or some facility there to come back the following week? Or is it possible to rent just for weekends? HON. S. USKIW: I'm advised that the maximum period that we allow people to be in a campground is two weeks, so they can be reserved for two weeks, at a given time or together, if you like. I'm not sure if the member is pursuing the idea of just reserving weekend use ... MR. A. ADAM: That's what I was asking. Mr.

Chairperson, while the Mi nister is discussing with staff, I just wanted to know if a person could come in and say, I would like to rent a parking space for the season, every weekend, is that possible? Is there sufficient space for that? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, our minimal rental period is five days. We have nothing shorter than five days; that's where we take reservations; otherwise it's first-come, first-served, for whatever is available. MR. A. ADAM: On another issue, referring to the Manipogo Park - the concessionaire, I believe, is retiring.

Has another person been found yet to take over the concession there? HON. S. USKIW: I believe there's going to be a tender out on that, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for La Verendrye. MR. R. BANMAN: Mr. Chairman, there was some talk about a ski hill and one that is receiving quite a bit of attention these days and quite a bit of correspondence as far as I'm concerned as well as representa tions, is the one at Falcon Lake.

There is a local group of people who have in this past year I think done a pretty good job of grabbing hold of it and trying to create some more public awareness, have been talking to some local radio stations here in Winnipeg and promoting the hill. There is the concern that the hill will not operate next year. I have had correspondence with the Minister's predecessor, who outlined a number of options that the government would pursue, namely, leasing it out or trying to form some kind of a group that would be able to operate it on a yearly basis.

I know there are a number of people out at Falcon Lake who are exploring that particular operation right now, trying through the ski club out there to come up with some kind of a proposal or try and work out some agreement with the government so that hill will not close. I guess my question to the Mi nister: We're going through the Estimates right now, have we got money included in the Estimates this year for the continued operation of the ski hill at Falcon Lake? HON. S. USKIW: Yes, we do have for the next winter seaso n, Mr. Chairman.

In the meanti me, we are attempting to find local community groups to take a look at it and perhaps even manage it for us. We're hoping to locate some local means of doing that, but we have budgeted for its operation for the next winter season. MR. R. BANMAN: So the Minister is indicating that it will run this coming year and in the meantime the department is actively pursuing either lease offers or local groups to become involved to try and maintain this over an extended period of time? HON. S. USKIW: Yes, that's correct, Mr. Chairman. MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I look forward to dealing with the different groups and dealing with the Mi nister to resolve the sort of cloud that's been hanging over the ski hill for the last couple of years. I know that in that particular area if the locals and a number of other people become committed to the facility, we'll probably see a lot of things happen. The other question I would have is - this would get into the negotiations that we could possibly get into - as far as Destination Manitoba or venture capital, we noticed the water slide got $130,000 out of venture capital money for that development.

One of the things that the Falcon ski hill really needs is a T-bar. I know some of the locals are looking at possibly buying a used one somewhere. Is the department, would they entertain a proposal which would see cost-sharing or a joint venturing with regards to the installation of such a thing? Most people now don't like to use the old rope tows anymore and the T-bar, I think, would really be a boon to that area. It would really increase the number of people that would go out there and ski. It's a sort of a chicken-and-egg situation, Mr. Min ister.

It's pretty hard to increase the volume of skiers out there if the facility isn't there and I don't think they're asking for hundreds and thousands of dollars to be spent, but rather that there be some recognition that it is a good facility and that it does need some upgrading in order for even the local groups to make it viable. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, we wouldn't mind considering some arrangement with whoever would be willing to invest in a T-bar on the hill and who would want to run that operation.

The information we have is that that investment would not dramatically enhance the attendance and, therefore, not a good proposition, economically speaking. Statistical ly, we have 1, 600 users up there which generates about $5,000 worth of revenue against an $80,000 expense of running it. That's where we are at the present time. Now, if a private sector group could turn that around, I'd be willing to look at a proposition from such a group, or a community group, or whatever. 11 09

Monday, 22 April, 1985 MR. R. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I look forward to working with the Mi nister with regard to developing such a group and, hopefully, we can maintain that operation out there. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Gladstone. MRS. C. OLESON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was wanting to mention a couple of things about Spruc e Woods Park. Some time ago, I wrote the previous Mi nister with some complaints I had from constituents and others regarding the fence at Spruce Woods Park along No. 5 Highway. To be really nice about it, it's disgraceful I could say a lot more.

I don't think it's been repaired for some time and the then Min ister wrote back and said that yes, it probably should be repaired and this would be something for the Jobs Fund. I haven't seen any activity there nor any bright green Jobs Fund signs and the fence is still in bad repair. I' m certainly not asking for any Jobs Fund signs out there, but I would consider the repairing of a fence to be maintenance not a special project. It should be an ongoing thing. If you've got a fence there then keep it in good shape. Either don't have one at all or have one in decent repair. That is a rail fence.

It was put up, I would say probably at least 12 to 13 years ago. I'm just guessing at that because my son happened to work there at the time and I think he was helping put it up. I don't think there's anything been done to it since and I was wondering if the Minister could enquire of his department if there could be anything done to either remove the thing completely or else repair it. HO iii. S. USKIW: At the moment, there are no plans with respect to the upgrading or otherwise of the fence. I'm reminded that broken-down fences make for good photography and painters tend to enjoy them. MRS. C.

OLESON: I think there are some who would disagree with you, Mr. Mi nister. Another aspect of that park, I was wondering if there's been an agreement signed for the services of the riding stable out there for this current year. HON. S. US KI W: I'm advised that the curr ent operations are going to continue, but there's going to be another operation that we've tender ed for in the Spir it Sands area. MRS. C. OLESON: Are you indicating that there are going to be two riding stable facilities? HON. S. USKIW: Yes, one is a guided tour and the other one may be just a riding operation, Mr. Chairman. MRS. C.

OLESON: Well, last year and in previous years there's been a riding stable and there's also been a hay ride sort of tour out into the sand hills and maybe that is what the Min ister's indicating. It was all run under the same contract, I believe.

One problem that I was made aware of was that people were being told that they were charging too much for the ride, that people wouldn't take the ride, when in fact they were taking it; and the government officials set the price that they could charge and then subsidized them - I don't know whether for sure it was up to what they had been charging, but to a similar rate - and they felt that was rather an odd way to go about things, that people were quite willing to pay the charges and they felt that really, it was a problem of keeping track of everything in order to apply for the subsidy.

They felt that perhaps there might be some dispute of their figures and that the whole thing was rather an unne cessary bookkeeping matter for them to have to go through. HOii!. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that we had a guarantee there to provide a minimum return to the operator, but that it was anticipa ted over lime that that would phase out as the operation became more viable with volume. So it's not intended that that be a permanent commitment. MRS. C. OLESON: I think it's a facility that's very popular out there, the rides and the tour into the hills.

It's something that a lot of people like to see and it's a good way to see it. l know personal ly, my family was rather disappoin ted when the park came in and restrictions were put on going out there because we used to go as a family and wander around at will. But of course I can see, with the fragile nature of that place, you wouldn't want indiscriminate use of it so sometimes things have to be regulated, but it does bother some of us. But I know that ride is popular and I would hate to see that particular part phased out.

I was interested to hear the Member for Turtle Mountain talking about the problems with horseback riding. I imagine it's fairly restricted in the Sp ruce Woods then; also just exactly where you can ride horses. HON. S. USKIW: Would the member repeat the last comment? MRS. C. OLESON: Is it fairly restricted in Spr uce Woods Park as well, where you can ride horses? Would the same regulations as apply to the Turtle Mountain Park apply to the Spruce Woods Park? HON. S. USKIW: I'm told there are designated trails, yes. MRS. C. OLESON: Okay. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. A.

DFllEDGER: I want to get back for some clarification on the roadside parks. The Mi nister indicated there were 115 roadside parks in the province and that last year 94 of them had been private, run by groups, chambers, municipalities or individuals. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, just so the member un ders tands, there are year-to-year maintenance contracts on 94 of the 115 parks. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Is that for this year, or are all the roadside parks now going to be maintained by other than government? HON. S.

USKIW: I'm advised that the number varies from year to year, but during the last season there were 94 contracts out of the 115 park operations. 111 0

Monday, 22 April, 1985 MR. A. DRIEDGER: The Member for Turtle Mountain indicated the closing of a roadside park in his area. Can the Min ister indicate how many roadside parks are going to be closed, along those lines? HON. S. USKIW: There's a probability that there will be some closed this year. We're not sure where they are, although we can get the details for the member. I think Hig hways is responsible for a few of them. In Birtle, the town took over the park and in Binscarth I think it's the same thing, the local communi ty's taking that over. There are changes that take place, one year over the other. MR.

A. DRIEDGER: Before the decision gets made to close a park of this nature, is there an effort made to try and get somebody to look after the maintenance of it, the community, anybody that would be interested? HON. S. USKIW: Yes, that's the procedure that is employed. MR. A. DRIEDGER: In the Min ister's opening statements, under Item 7, he has indicated "conversion of campsites from transient to seasonal will save 2.4 staff years and $60,000.00." Could the Mi nister clarify that statement? First of all, could the Min ister clarify "from transient to seasonal," what category roadside parks would fall under that ...

HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, just so the member knows what it is we're dealing with here, those are campgrounds rather roadside parks. MR. A. DRIEDGER: What is the thinking here in terms of changing from transient to seasonal? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, that's strictly an economics question. It costs a lot more to handle transient volume as opposed to seasonal volume, so it's a budgetary consideration. There's one other reason and that is that we were unable to meet the demand for seasonal use last year, so there's a backlog of demand for seasonal. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Which campgrounds, just for an example - is this a wide variety of campgrounds that are being effected or is it certain indi vidual campgrounds that we're talking about? HON. S. USKIW: There are several throughout the province, Mr. Chairman, where we are having problems meeting the demand and where we are expanding the seasonal capacity. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Then I want to deal with Item 6 in the Minister's opening remarks where he said, "Late opening and early closing of some campgrounds will save staff years and $310,000.00." Can the Mi nister indicate which campgrounds, how long, when we talk of late opening and early closing? If the rationale is economics on these things, maybe if you didn't close them at all you'd save all kinds of money. HON. S. USKIW: If we closed them all we would save a lot of money. 1111 MR. A. DRIEDGER: Further to that, Mr. Chairman, what does the Mi nister mean by late opening?

Does that mean after the May long weekend and closing down at the end of August, that they'll just be open for three months of the year or, specifical ly, what does the Min ister and his staff have in mind? HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, basically, what it amounts to is that we will attempt to make full use of the remaining ones by delaying the opening of some that are underutilized, so rather than having a vast number of campgrounds underutilized, we will thin some of the weak ones out for the short term, delay their opening, and maximize the use in those remaining - and they're usually within reasonable distance, one from the other, so that the options for an alternative site are always there. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Is the Mini ster telling us then that for the fishing long weekend in May that there will be some campgrounds that will not be available to the public for use? Usually that is a time when some of the more isolated ones probably get more pressure than they do maybe during July and August because . . . is that what the Minis ter is telling us, that for the May long weekend certain campgrounds will not be available for people who go out for the fishing weekend? HON. S. USKI W: Yes, the fishing campsites are inten ded to be open, but it's the non- fi shing campgrounds that we are going to delay. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: I suspect possibly that the Minister, as well as many others, will probably be getting phone calls after the long weekend in cases where somebody hasn't been able to get into a campground, so we can both, I believe, anticipate action on that and the subject will probably be coming forward again somewhere along the line. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, just for the benefit of members, we intend to launch an advertising campaign which will inform the public as to which ones are going to be open, which ones will not for those particular weeks in question. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr.

Chairman, tha t kind of advertising I could go along with. HON. S. USKIW: -etl don't mind that - (I nterjection) - Paid for by the Jobs Fund. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Mr. Chairman, I was quite disturbed the other day. Apparently the Department of Tourism have decided to delete Hig hway 83 as a corridor for the people who like to come and patronize our parks. I don't know why they did it; but they did. Highway 83 goes from the Gulf of Mexico all the way to Swan River, in fact, we were hoping some day to touch the salt water at Churchill.

I wonder if the Min ister could get the bureaucrats to get their act together and find out why they would do that since it was drawn to my attention.

Monday, 22 April , 1985 The other question was, west of Roblin on Provincial Trunk Hig hway No. 5 where it crosses the Lake of the Prairies, there are a lot of tourists stop there. Is that a tourist camp? Do the Parks maintain or pick up ga rbage ther e or is there any ind ication of new development in there? A lot of people stop at that site. HON. S. USKIW: I wonder if the member would be more specific as to exact location. MR. W.

McKENZIE: There's a bridge that crosses the Lake of the Prairies about 12 miles west of Roblin on the provincial trunk highway on the way to Yorkton and right there is where the traffic comes off that road and they see the lake and they stop there. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, at the moment, that is not a controlled area. We do pick up the garbage, but ifs our intention to designate it as a park area, close off some of the accesses which apparently are qu ite numerous, and to channel the traffic into the proper area that we will then manage. MR. W.

McKENZIE: Is there any in terest from developers on the west shore or the east shore of Lake of the Prairies? I've heard all kinds of people from Yorkton, Regina and other places - especially last year when they saw all the fish coming out of there - express a lot of inte rest at coming in there to develop some of that prope rty. HOii!. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, we do have enquir ies with respect to the area and we are encouraging private sector development there. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Emerson. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: We can either deal with it here under Admi nstration or under Park Planning, I want to pu rsue the Atikaki Park development and the designation as a wilderness area, we can do it here if the Mi nister wants. - (I nterjection) - Fine. Can the Mi nister indicate what stage we're at with the Atikaki Park? HON. S. USKIW: It's anticipa ted that we should have that well under way and behind us within a month, five weeks, six weeks. MR. A. DRllEDGER: That would be the designation then of the Atikaki as a wilderne ss area. HON. S. USKIW: As a wilderness park, Mr. Chairman. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Is it the intention that there be the same kind of restrictions on the Atikaki Wilderness Park as there is on the Lake Mantario Park? I'm referring specifically to the restriction of motor boats, snow toboggans, airpla nes . . . HON. S. USKIW: The answer is no to the question. The access essentially is going to be by air and the rivers are going to be the main areas of usage for recreational pur poses or whatever. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: So the Mi nister is indicating that people who want to go sport fishing up in the Bloodvein, for example, starting from the Bloodvein Reserve would still be able to have access to go upstream with motor boats and go fishing and the fishing lodges would still be able to fly in with planes to service their fishing lodges and the traplines would still be able to operate during the course of the winter. Is that what the Minis ter is telling us? HON. S. USKIW: I suspect the member isn't familiar with the river. MR. A. DRIEDGER: I have been fishing on it, sir. HON. S.

USKIW: Because if one wants to motor up the river, one would have to have some craft and some motor with a few wings on it to get over the rapids, and there are very many rapids along the way. But yes, that is not going to be restricted activity. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Just to clarify that, in case the Min ister believes that I have not done that, we have done that. And we have portaged around many of the rapids up there and it was very enjoyable. I just want to indicate to the Mi nister that I was concerned that that would still be available.

In terms of the Atikaki Park area, does the Min ister have a map that can indicate the size of this because I'd like to know if this designation will have any effect on, let's say, wild rice harvesting or any of these other things? The mining exploration, is there a limitation on that? HON. S.

USKIW: I'm told there's virtually zero mining potential in that area and no wild rice potential in that area and forestry will be somewhat impaired, if you like, but we have been dealing with Abitibi per se on that issue where we want to reserve the forests along the rivers for a certain depth on each side of the rivers for which we are going to give the company another location to extract resource material to offset the reduction that they will suffer in this area. MR. A. DRIEDGER: So the Minis ter is telling us that the Atikaki Wilderne ss Park will not have the same restrictions that Lake Mantario has.

Is the Minister going to reconsider some of the strenuous restrictions on the Lake Mantario area in view of the many concerns that people have whose livelihood it affects, incidentally, in terms of fishing lodges and trap lines and stuff of this nature? I believe that the people in the general area that are affected are prepa red to certainly look at restrictions, but I think that restrictions may be a little too stringent in some areas. All I'm asking is whether the Mini ster is prepared to review the situation and maybe reconsider some of the tight policies that are in effect on that park? HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, whether the policy changes or not is here nor there - I suspect it will not although I sup pose anything is possible - to be reopened . We are looking at the impact that policy has had on the operations within that area. I'm trying to redress some of the negative impact. We have not 11 12

Monday, 22 April, 1985 finalized that. It's our hope that we will come out of that discussion in an amicable manner, wherein we have, in my opinion at least, treated those people fairly that are so affected. We don't know where or how long it's going to take to finali ze that, but we are discussing that question with a number of people that were operators in the area. MR. A. DRIEDGERi I don't know whether I understood the Mi nister right. Is he saying that he thinks that the people have been treated fairly or that they're working to try and make sure that they are treated fairly. HON. S.

USKIW: The attempt is being made to examine the impact and to try to offset the negative impact on those individuals. There are a few of them. We have yet to determine the extent of any negative impact on each and every one of them and to come up with a solution. There are some discussions under way with respect to that at the present time. MR. A. DRIEDGER: A further question along the same lines. The Min ister, he indicated that the policy or direction of the designation will not change. Is the Min ister prepared to possibly consider a permit system for limited use in certain cases?

I'm talking of somebody with a trap line, for example. He's indicated fishing lodges. That could be circumstances where a permit system could maybe be worked out to accommodate some of the people that are affected or is this under consideration? HON. S. USKIW: The trap lines are not affected. They are permitted to carry on. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mi nister of Mu nicipal Affairs. HON. A. ANSTETT: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I app reciated the interest shown by the Member for Emerson in the Mantario wilderness area because I have shared those concerns in the past but I did not want to leave on the record the impression, perhaps inadvertent, that trap lines were affected. That's why I asked to be recognized. I'm glad the Mi nister has corrected that inadvertence, although the original proposal dating back from when the honourable member's colle agues were in government include d a wilderness area in which no trapping would be allowed in the original drafts.

That was certainly changed under the predecessor to the current Min ister and a change to provide for trapping was allowed. There has been no impact whatsoever on trapping. In response to the Member for Min nedosa, I can't advise him as to what the status of that proposal was when government changed . I'm not for a minute suggesting it had official sanction. I can only say that it was changed by our government. The second point that I think shouldn't be on the record is the suggestion that there are fishing lodges in the wilderness area.

My understanding is that there are out camps and boat caches but no actual lodges that are affected by the change in the Whiteshell management plans. I think that should be put in the proper perspective. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I think just to be clear, there are lodges that have been affected by the change in pol icy. They may not be located within the area, but they have been adversely affected and, therefore, that is the point that I was referring to when I said that we were trying to modify the effect to whatever extent we can. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minn edosa. MR. D. BLAKE: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, thank you. I wonder if the Mi nister could tell me what the status of the park at Lake Wahtopanah is at the present time? HON. S. USKIW: What about it? MR. D. BLAKE: I wondered the status of the park there, the camping facilities there in the park. HON. S. USKIW: Where is that? MR. D. BLAKE: Rivers. HON. S. USKIW: There's a proposal for a planned cottage su b-division for the area not yet approved. MR. D.

BLAKE: A few years ago, they eliminated the resident campers, the ones that came in and parked there maybe for a month or so out of the area along by the lake and moved them up on to the top of the hill where there wasn't a tree or a bit of shelter whatsoever. Has that been relaxed somewhat

whereas they can come in and stay for an extended period other than overnight? They were trying to leave those campsites for overnight campers and they were never ever filled. There's not that many overnight campers, but there's a lot like to come out and spend a week or two weeks there with their families and use the boating facilities and the beach before the algae gets so thick that you can walk on it. HON. S. USKIW: I think we should take that matter under advisement. I'm not sure if we're talking about the same area, Mr. Chairman. It's the campsite at Rivers Lake. It's called Lake Wahtopanah. HON. S.

USKIW: Okay, we've got it. MR. D. BLAKE: If I can get a report on that at any time, that's fine. I don't think I've got any other government campsites in my area, so I can't really ask too much. What is the situation with the roadside camps. I was in terested in the remarks the Me mber for Turtle Mountain with the Riverside - are there are any roadside camping spots on No. 10, say, north of Dauphin on the way to Flin Flon? Are there any of those that have been closed or that aren't maintained now? I'm thinking of Red Deer River. I know the one at Mafeking was closed. HON. S.

USKIW: I'm advised that the Overflowing Campground was privatized and that person, of course, is also closing off the one across the road so that it handles all of the traffic in the one area. 1113

Monday, 22 April, 1985 MR. D. BLAKE: But Red Deer is still functioning and Overflowing River, they're still operating as they were? MR. CH AIRMAN: The hour being 4:30, we are interru pting the proceed ings of this committee for Private Members' Hour. We shall return to this committee at 8:00 p.m. SUPPLY - HEALT H MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: We are considering the Estimates of the Department of Health, Item 4.(

a) Children's Psychiatric and Forensic Services, Chief Provincial Psychiatrist. 4.(a)( 1) - the Member for Pembina . MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, before we proceed on this section, the Mini ster un dertook to provide some answers last time we met. I wonder if he has that information now? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Min ister of Health. HON. l. DES JARDINS: To refresh my memory - is that the comment on the French newspaper article? We haven't got that yet. What was the other thing? MR. D. ORCHARD: There was the numbers on your Mental Health, 15.25 a day per diems. Well, Mr.

Chairman, I believe the Minister was going to provide some further information on - I haven't got it written down here - the per diem in the mental health institutions that was newly imposed. HON. l. DESJARDINS: About the revenue? MR. D. ORCHARD: Yes. HON. l. DESJARDINS: Oh, the revenue. I think I gave that. Mr. Chairman, I later on gave that information of 1.9, but it was global and I'd like to refresh my honourable friend's memory. I was assured that's what he wanted , the global thing. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, since dealing with that section, and the Mi nister will possibly pardon an additional question on it, one of my colleagues was sent a notice. I think it was just addressed to the patient, to a resident at Brandon, who was under 65, signed by the Minister indicating the new regime of per diems. Within that was the - 1 don't have it with me - explanation that if your net income was below the 1, 825 or whatever. I guess what I want to make sure, that has caused a certain amount of alarm needless to say. That's what stimulated that letter to come to the attention of my colleague, the Member for Virden.

Now, we discussed this issue, as I recall, quite thoroughly in the Estimates on the last two sections and the Mini ster indicated that there would be no per diems charged unless that individual who was a patient in residence was filing income tax, that was basically what it came down to.

Now, in view of the fact that some of those letters have at least gone out to some people wo, by the Mi nister's definition last week, would not be requir ed to pay the per diem, the question I have, and the Minister may want to defer this until his Salary, but did every resident get a letter such as this and, if that is the case, then it is obviously then is up to the resident to prove or the resident's spouse or family members to prove or to demonstrate to the institutions that, indeed, their income is below that $1, 825 or whatever the figure is? Am I making the proper assumption here?

I would just say to the Minis ter that if everyone got that kind of a letter, I think he can app reciate the concern it would raise immediately, that all patients would be subject to that even though it's explained that they wouldn't be if their income is below. It probably has caused some alarm amongst patients and families or least in families of patients there. HON. l. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, during the weeken d, this was brought to my attention and apparently there has been some misunderstanding and this is something that I wanted to discuss with staff. It might be that a further letter will have to go.

I want to make it quite clear that this letter went to every single person. This was more or less advising the population of Manitoba that there would be a change in policy and that was it. I happen to have this letter and it says, "If your personal annual income income is less than $1, 825 you will not be expected to pay the daily fee." That's this $150 a month that I was saying would be the same as the people now, how we treat the people that are on Old Age Pension and the Supplement.

It goes on to say, "If your personal annual income exceeds $1, 825, you will be expected to pay all or part of the fee according to your ability to pay." Your ability to pay would be depending - in other words, if they have instead of $1, 825, if they have $2,000, well then they would pay $175 of it, that's all. I think we'll have to consider maybe making this quite clear. This is only announcing the policy and it is the intention of the Commission to be dealing and to be discussing this with every individual home or institutions. That will be made quite clear. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, I appr eciate what the Mini ster is saying today and obviously over the weekend he's received some of the same concerns that we have received on this side of the House. I suppose it stems from the fact that when you get a notice in the mail, you maybe don't always read the fine print. There is, I believe, some confusion going to emanate from the Min ister's letter as to who is going to bE charged the per diems and what the per diems arE going to be.

To avoid an onrush of complaints, I thin� probably, some attempt at clarification might be i reasonable move on the Mi nister or the Health Service: Commission's part. As I follow through the Mini ster': answer, it's not only residents in Brandon and Selkirk but residents through out the province in variou institutions, large or small, that probably would hav received a similar letter and, no doubt, in some cas� faced similar questions and concerns. So, if the Minister could attempt to clarify, I think would be most beneficial to those residents and the families. 11 14 e e e k a s s , s e s ,

Monday, 22 April , 1985 HON. L. DESJARDINS: To complete the picture, Mr. Chairman, I think I should inform the committee that on the same date, all the chief executive officers of the hospitals, medical health centres also received a letter signed by the Executive Director of the Ma nitoba Health Services Commission. Then, there's been a meeting with the chief executive director already. There'll be more meetings.

Maybe to set the record straight, I should read this other letter: "D ear Sir/Ma dam: This will advi se you of government's decision to implement residential fees for chronic patients in acute and extended treatment hospitals and mental health facilities. The residential fees will apply (1) to residents of mental health centres who have been maintained for 365 days or more without discharge to the community (2) to hospital patients who in the opinion of their physicians are unlikely to be discharged.

"The residential fee to be based on ability to pay is to be levied against personal annual income only, not family income. It will be identical to that charged residents of personal care homes and panelled patients awaiting personal care home placement. In May, this will be $15.25 a day subject to quarterly incr ease. Incr eases take effect after the qu arterly escalation of Old Age Security Benefits plus federal and provincial suppl ements. The residual annual income of a personal care home resident receiving the maximum Old Age Security Benefit is approximately $1, 825.00.

Under no circumstances will the individual be left with less than this amount after paying the residential charge. "Copies of the Mi nister's letter notifying patients of the charge are enclosed. Will you please deliver one to each patient affected 30 days before collecting the residential fee. All patients to be charged must receive a minimum of 30 days notice before fees are collected. "For patients in mental health facilities, the Min ister or the Mi nister' s de signa te may, under specia l circums tances, waive all or any part of the da ily residential charge.

In hospitals or extended treatment uni ts, the Manitoba Health Services Commission will waive all or any part of the daily residential charge. Sp ecial application forms and protocol will be sent to you in the next few days covering this procedure. "We are attaching an administrative guideline and a residential fee

schedule for implementation of this regulation. "If you have any questions ... "and it states who they should get in touch with. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, if my memory serves me correctly, the Mi nister made this announc ement on April Fool's Day, and that would have to make the assumption that that letter, as well as the first letter that we were discussing prior to the letter from the executive director, those letters indicating policy change would have had to go out on the same day as the Mi nister's announcement, to comply with his 30-day notice. HON. L DESJARDINS: March 29th. MR. D.

ORCHARD: March 29th - good. So the Mini ster recognizes there may be a problem and some confusion and will attempt, by some means, through the Commission or through his office to, I believe, alleviate the confusion. Mr. Chairman, we can proceed now with the Provincial Psychiatrist. Mr. Chairman, of the six staff positionE., could the Mi nister indicate whether all are filled and whether any are filled on an acting basis and, for that matter, if the Mi ni ster had easi ly at hand the answer to those questions for the entire category that we're dealing with here, 4.(a), 4.(

b) and 4.(c), it would save repeating the question, namely, whether there are any vacancies and if there are vacancies, are recruitment processes in place and, secondly, are there any positions filled on an acting basis. If so, will those positions be bulletined? HON. L DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, under 4.(a)(

b) and (c), there is only one and that is the Chief Provincial Psychiatrist, who's on contract. The others are all full­ time empl oyees. There are no vacancies in (a); there is one, a medical officer, in (

b) Forensic Services, and the letter of offer has already gone to a special individual who we exp ect to fill it fairly soon; and on (c), out of those 20, there again there's one vacancy. It is the commun ity health worker and this is in the process of being filled and all of them, as I said, are permanent emp loyees except the Chief Psychiatrist who is on a contract. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, in (b), to save asking the question when we get there, is the letter of offer a result of a bulletined job interview? HON. l.

DES JAR DINS: This is mor e than the adver tising; this is also active rec ruiting and I understand this is from the recruiting. MR. D. ORCHARD: So, Mr. Chairman, is the Minister indicating that the vacancy in 4.(

b) was bulletined, advertised and a number of applicants were interviewed, or did you use some other agency for recruitment? Was it through the normal Civil Service hiring process? HON. L. DE SJARDINS : There's no outside firm participating in this. I'm informed that the advertising is practically permanent because we're always looking for psychiatrists, as I mentioned earlier, and this is also active recruiting and this is following that, that this letter was sent. MR. D. ORCHARD: Could the Min ister indicate what is "active recruiting?" HON. l.

DESJARDI NS: I would say that you can advertise and bulletin and then you wait for people to enquire and active recruting is that you go out ol your way to, if you hear of anyone, that you get in touch with them and if have any leads at all you go after them and apparently both are being done at this time. 1115 MR. D.

ORCHARD: So, in other words, is the Minister indicating that to fill this position, there were not a number of applicants, basis the advertising or the bulletining of the vacancy and therefore there was no! a Civil Service hiring penel, that this position is being '.l presumably by someone within Forensic Services

Monday, 22 April, 1985 actively recruiting an individual to come in and fill the position; and this position would then be filled without competition? HON. L. DESJARDINS: This is hardly the problem in this case. As I say, there is continued advertising and we don't seem to get the applications. It's not a question of being fair with the applications. We don't get them, so the Chief Psychiatrist has been in touch with all his counterparts in every province and so on to try to get names and this is how that name was brought about - lead, I should say; and then, of course, the Chief Psychia trist gets in touch with them and this is the result of that contact. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.