PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT House of Assembly For the period: 3:00 p.m. - 6:00 p.m. Wednesday, March 9, 1977

March 9, 1977 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Tape No. 843 I would like to welcome to the galleries, NM- 1 in the first instance,two delegations of students from E.J. Pratt High School at Brownsdale,thirty-nine grade ten and eleven students accompanied by their teachers Mr. Lloyd Snow, and Mr. Melvin Walsh, and from Gaultois Victoria High School, thirteen grade eleven students accompanied by Hr. Wayne Kendell and Mr. l-Tade Prior. I know all bon. members join me in welcoming these young Newfoundlanders and their teachers to the House of Assembly this afternoon.

SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER: We also have in the galleries two municipal delegations; a delegation from the Community Council pf Comfort Cove- Newstead, with the Chairman, Mr. Dave Eveleb:h and the Town Clerk, Mr. Head and also from the communities of l!'leur.de Lys and Coacllman's Cove. we are pleased to welcome Mr. Leo Shea, Chairman of the Local Improvement District for that area and accompanied by other members of the Council. I know bon. members join me in welcoming these municipal representatives to the House. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear! Hear! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS: MR. SPEAKER: The bon.

Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, today if I may,I would like to bring the members of the bon. House up to date on the status of the strike by members of the Newfoundland Association of Public Employees at Waterford Hospital and as well to outline the negotiating stance of the parties to the dispute. The strike has occupied much discussion in the House and I would like to clarify the situation. 2311.

March 9, 1977 Tape No. 843 NM- 2 MR. DOODY: The strike at Waterford Hospital commenced, Sir, at midnight on Feburuary 17th., seven days after a strike vote was conducted by the unit. It is significant to note, Mr. Speaker, that only a minority of the employees in the bargaining unit attended the meeting in which the strike vote was taken. At the time the strike vote was taken, apart from discussions on the pension issue, there had been no negotiations at all on any of the items to be included in a new collective agreement.

The Union adamantly refused to even consider the other matters and it was a straight­ forward case of straight-forward clear cut ultimatum that pensions must be settled first. Our negotiators were not given the opportunity to discuss the many other items in the contract before the strike vote was taken. The salary question had not even been discussed. There was no money on the table and still the Union took a vote which resulted in the current strike. Mr. Speaker, the strike at Waterford Hospital has been in progress now for almost three weeks.

Government has been continually monitoring the situation with the Administration with the Department ofHealth and with the Board of the Hospital to ensure that the desired level of patient care is maintained. Since the start of the strike, Sir, approximately 100 of the 400 patients have been discharged. The remaining 300 patients are being cared for by the Nurses, the Allied Health Professionals, medical staff, management personnel and volunteers from various areas in the Public Service. Security is being provided by members of the Newfoundland Constabulary. Mr.

Speaker, it is as a result of the dedication and an all-out effort on the part of all of these people that I can assure this House that all- of the patients at the hospital are being well treated and well cared for, and will continue to be for the duration of the strike. Mr. Speaker, since the strike, we have met with the Union on several occasions and their position has not changed. While they still refuse to discuss the contract, we have presented pronosals on a multiplicity of Articles. For instance, we made 2312

March 9, 1977 Tape 844 IB-1 }41:!_. DOODY : the same salary proposal to the group that has been accepted in every other hospital in the Province to date. This was done before the strike started but the union refused to present it to the membership and they refused to discuss it further with us., }fr. Speaker, the union say that they are prepared to talk but they are only prepared to talk on their terms. They will agree to talk with us after they have been offered the exact pension benefits that they requested at the outset. They have told us there is no room at all for compromise on the pension issue.

We find it difficult to believe the extent of their inflexibility but unfortunately it has now been reconfirmed to our negotiators on several occasions, to the Honourable Minister of Manpower and Industrial Felations last week and to myself over this past weekend. The only area the Union is willing to discuss is which employees should be entitled to be covered by the plan once Government has totally conceded to their demand on the content of the plan. ~1r. Speaker, the strike at Waterford Hospital is indeed unfortunate. Government, and I am sure all of the members of this bon. House are anxious to see it ended.

In an effort to accomplish that end, our negotiators have again asked NAPE to come back to the bargaining table today. We will be proposing improvements to the special pension benefits previously offered and we will propose extending these benefits to additional employees. In addition, we will bring the proposed collective agreement in line with all those signed by other hospitals in the Province. Of course, it will contain the speci.al provisions for contact pay which are peculiar to the ~.J'aterford. ~~r.

Speaker, there is always an easy solution to any public service strike and that is to conced to the demands of a union, especially in difficult circumstances. It is easy to sweep the long-term ramifications of immediate action under the carpet. Government, however, cannot - lose sight of its very real responsibility in relation to all of the 30,000 public employees in the Province, to maintain an appropriate balance in salaries, working conditions and pensions.

March 9, 1977 Tape 844 IB-2 MR. DOODY: Government must ensure therefore that no one group is able, because of some particular leverage it may have by disrupting essential public services, to enforce its demands in a disproportionate manner. In this case the Union claims that Psychiatric Nursing Assistants at Waterford Hospital should be entitled to the same pension plan as is available to Warders at Her Majesty's Penitentiary. They are attempting to identify circumstances at the Hospital with those of a prison. The Union claims . the Hospital is unique in Canada.

Government is unable to accept this position and we know of at least 12 hospitals across Canada where patient population and the work situations of their employees ·parallel those of the Waterford Hospital here in Newfoundland. AN RON. !-'E}ffiER: Up to the l-Taterford Hospital? MR. DOODY: Yes. Not one . of these hospitals has a special pension plan for their employees. In every single case the pension plan available to the employees is the same as the general plan for other categories of public employees in the respective provinces.

The employees currently on strike at Waterford have taken an adamant position to obtain a benefit unprecedented in Canada for employees in comparable institutions. This Government has agreed that in certain instances their stand is justified but this approach has not been successful. In an effort to resolve the dispute we will, this afternoon~ be offering further concessions to the Union. We would hope that NAPE will also approach the bargaining table in a conciliatory frame of mind and I express the sincere hope that the Union membership will be given an opportunity to consider Government's latest proposal.

Thank you, Sir • SOME HON. ME¥-BEPS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Let me first of all say, Sir, that we appreciate the statement by the minister because I believe it is the first time since this strike began that the minister has made Z314

}!arch 9, 1977 Tape 844 IB-3 MR. ROBERTS: a ministerial statement. I believe there was one about the day the strike began or a day or so thereafter. So we do appreciate that. I do regret though, Mr. Speaker, that the minister has not in his stat ·ement given the information which he has not been able to give in the House in response to quite a number of questions. And while I have not looked at the Hansard carefully on this point, Mr. Speaker, I wauld .think that there have been more questions asked about the situation with respect t .o the Waterford Hospital than there have been about any other single issue that has arisen during this current session. The minister 2315

March 9, 1977 Tape no. 845 Page 1 - mw Mr. Roberts. has given some information in response to those questions. He has not given information in response to a number of others. I regret that he has not done so in this statement today. I regret further, Sir, several aspects of the statement, and while I will say a word or two in support of an aspect of the minister's policy or the policy of the administration as outlined by the minister, I do want to say specifically that I think some of the statements made in the Ministerial Statement are provocative. They may or may not be correct.

I am not allowed to debate that at this time, but I think they are provocative and 1 submit needlessly provocative, and I do not think that is an~ay - in which one should approach this situation. The strike at the Waterford Hospital is a lawful one under the legislation enacted by this House at the request of the present government. The men and the women who are on strike are exercising their lawful rights and as far as I am aware they are doing so lawfully. There have been no improper incidents.

There was the usual confusion over picketing, the usual injunction issued in due course from the Supreme Court and as far as I know that has been honoured. I have heard no reports of any incidents. And I think both sides to the strike, Sir, should be congratulated on that, because this is a very emotional strike. Any strike has emotional overtone -s, but this one more so than most.

The minister's statement is needlessly provocative, and perhaps even the fact it is made here­ ! am not sure whether the parties have actually met as yet to discuss these further advances, these further concessions, the administration are prepared to offer. If they have met then well and good. If not the mere fact of the statement being made at this moment as opposed to tomorrow or yesterday or later today is in my view again needlessly pro-..rocative. We do not need, Mr. Speaker, more provocation.

One of the difficulties in this strike is that both sides have dug in and dug in publicly and that is going to make the resolution infinitely more ,. 2316

May 9, 1977 Tape no. 845 Page 2 - mw Mr. Roberts. difficult whenever it comes. It must come and when it comes it will be all the more painful, Sir, because we are fast getting to the point where one side or the other must lose some face. Mr. Speaker, I would like to say more but I suspect I am about to reach the line which I should not cross into the order of debate so I will not. Let me say though in conclusion, Sir, that we on this side welcome the news that negotiations are resumi~g.

Whatever will be their outcome we welcome the fact that they are resuming, because, Sir, in a phrase which Sir Winston Churchill once used and which I think is both apt and appropriate, and this states the position quite succinctly, I think, Sir, "Jaw, jaw, jaw is better than war, war, war." As long as the two sides to the dispute at the Waterford Hospital are talking, there is some hope that it will be resolved. We all want to see it resolved. We all want to see it resolved fairly and amicably. We all want to see it res.olved as quickly as possible. To that let me add just one sentence, Sir.

I hope the minister will make further reports, and I hope they will be more complete and more forthcoming than the one he has given us now. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS: MR.. SPEAKER: - The hon. member for Lewisporte. Mr. Speaker, I rise to present a petition on behalf of 360 residents of the communities of Comfort Cove - Newstead in my district of Lewisporte. The prayer of the petition is basically that the road from the Road to the Isles down as far as Comfort Cove, passing through the communities of Turtle Creek and Newstead,be paved this coming year. Now, Mr.

Speaker, this prayer is not a common ordinary prayer that we get from a lot of communities this time of year in terms of requests to pave roads. This comes from a community that is turning out to be probably what is a model 2317

March 9, 1977 Tape no. 845 Page 3- mw Mr. White. community in terms of rural development in this Province. The \ town of Comfort Cove today has located in it the most modern canning operation in this Province. Recent expansion there cost in the vicinitv of close to $500,000. And as the Minister of Fisheries pointed out in the House a couple of weeks ago, this is the place now wh~re an experiment is being carried out with seal meat, in the packaging of seal meat in steaks, roasts and chops and other forms. Also, Mr.

Speaker, members will recall that the well-known Green L~ Turnip Top Brand is canned in Comfort Cove and now experiments are going on with respect to other products such as; beans and different other things, rabbit, and seal stew and a number of other things that I could go on and mention. I say ~ 2318

March 9,1977 Tape 846 AH-1 MR. WHITE: this because to pave this road this year this government would be carrying out its policy of spending the available funds it has on resources of the Province. Currently the raw material for this plant at Comfort Cove is being carried over this road. Turnip Top is being brought in in open trucks and it gets dust on it. Cans that are shipped out arrive at supermarkets and are competing with ~~ainland brands and often there is dust on them and that kind of thing.

So it is imperative this road be paved as quick as possible so that the quality of the produ~t that is being produced in this canning operation be maintained and be improved and that is why I support the prayer of this petition, Mr. Speaker. The attempts by the people in the community to have this road paved are well known. The Minister of Transportation and Commpnicatinn~ visited the area last year. He met with a group of people, a very orderly group of people who presented the case to him. Besides the canning plant, Mr.

Speaker, we also have Carlson Shipping there who have just opened a seal-pelt operation and are becoming more involved in that. There are two parks parks located there, one of them a Beothuck park as a memorial to the Beothuck Indians. So-it is really one of the busiest roads in Newfoundland and a road that badly needs pavement because as I said when I started it is a model community when it comes to the rural development of Newfoundland and the kind of thing we hope to see in future. Mr. Speaker, I table this petition and ask that it be referred to the dep~rtment to which it relates for action. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Ron. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I support the petition so ably presented by my hon. friend the member for Lewisporte on behalf of 360 of his constituents in the Comfort Cove-_:Newstead area. My hon. friend,Sir, f, 2319

March 9,1977 Tape 846 AH-2 MR. NEARY: ·made a very strong case on behalf of his constituents and you know, Mr. Speaker, you would want to be unpatriotic if you would not support the prayer of the petition after listening to my hon. friend. Obviously, Mr. Speaker, this particular community of Comfort Cove is developing into a very fine community. They have now a solid foundation on which to build up the economy of that part of Newfoundland and this is the sort of thing, Sir, that the government should be doing,putting its money into roads to resources.

So I support the prayer of the petition, Sir, and if for no other reason -I would not want to see all these wonderful ~eal steaks~ choice meat that t~e Minister of Fisheries was talking about the other day turning into stew going over thatrough road down there - so if for no other reason I would support the petition for that reason. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister of Transportation and Communication. . - - MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, just a few comments on the petition.

The delegation that brought the petition to the hon. member for the district met with me and the officials of the department this morning. The road they refer to in their petition is a road that was reconstructed in 1974 or 1975 at a cost of almost $1 million totally by the provincial government,this administratiop,and now the request is to have this

section of road approximately e~ght miles from the intersection of the Road to the Isles to Comfort Cove and Newstead-Comfort Cove- ~ving st!en that road last summ~r ;mil h~ing travelled over it to Comfort Cove and. having met witn_ a delegation in the community there at that time I am fully aware of the need to have it paved.Also my colleague the Minister of Fisheries on his visits to the area, he did not travel over that same piece of road but he is aware of the road and the need to .. have improvemen~s- made 2320

March 9,1977. Tape 846 AH-3 MR. MORGAN: because of the industry there in connection with the fisheries . and we have discussed this~ Taking_ into consideration that there are many roads around the Province, some of them similar to this road and otners not,that need reco"struction and paving the only comment I can make at this time is that hopefully funds can be found in 1977 to pave the

section of road that we reconstructed in i974-1975. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Ron."Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to say a few words in support of the petition which my friend and colleague from Lewisporte has presented and I think , Sir, in presenting it he made a very strong case. I understand t 2321.

March 9, 1977 Tape 847 PK - 1 Mr. Roberts: the Minister of Transportation in speaking in support of the petition as well too said that the ~ request will be considered. That is really, l guess, as far as we can go now. I do hope, Sir, though that the result of the consideration of t~e request is a decision to go ahead with this work this year. It is very hard to assign priorities with respect to roads, because everybody whose road is not paved feels,obviously 1 that that should be the priority, the paving of his particular road.

And we all know as well that there are many considerations other than simply the length of the piece of road in question or its cost that must be taken into account. Even so, Mr. Speaker, I think the case made by the gentleman from Lewisporte (Mr. White) in behalf of the people who signed this petition, the citizens who live in the Comfort Cove area,it is a compelling case, Sir, and I would hope it is taken with the great weight that should be attached to it.

There are a lot of petitions presented in this House, Sir, and all of them are well meant, and all of them represent the genuine wishes of the people who sign the petitions, but, Sir, I think this one, if this is not a bad use of grammar, is even more legitimate than all the others we have. And I would hope this year when the minister comes to divide up whatever sum of money is allocated to him by the House for the construction of new roads and the reconstruction and paving of existing roads that he would put iD this particular road.

Along those lines, Sir, this just shows the value of something which the minister has undertaken to do but has never done, nor have his predecessors unfortunately, and that is producing a two or a three or a five year plan so that the people in Comfort Cove and in the area would know where there road stood in the - - - --- - -overall scheme of things. Indeed we do not even know how many requests the minister is considering this year, nor do we know the relative -- 2322

March 9, 1977 Tape 847 PK - 2 Mr. Roberts: merits. And since we have not debated the Transportation and Communications estimates in this House for the last two or three years there has been no opportunity to discuss it. Even so, Mr. Speaker, I hope the minister will treat it with the great merit it deserves. And I want to say just one other thing that I think it is particularly appropriate that the member from Lewisporte , I believe; is a native son of the Borough of Comforts Cove and I think that gives - -.. . him a certain extra pleasure in presenting the petition today.

I do not think he is any longer a resident in Comfort Cove, so we- MR. SMALLWOOD: It is not a pocket borouglt _. MR. ROBERTS: I did not - the hon. gentleman from Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) tells me it is not a pocket borough,! had not thQught it was. I would think though a very determined and a very free borough because I believe they have given their overwhelming support to the gentleman from Lewisporte, who is not only a native son, but makes an extremely effective member for the district of Lewisporte, including the community of Comfort Cove. I support the petition, Sir, in behalf of all my colleagues.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member from the Bay of Islands. MR. L. WOODROW: I also take great pleasure in supporting this petition. SOME HON. MEMBERS": Bear, hear! MR. WOODROW: What I want to say about the member is that - the member from Lewisporte is certainly a model speaker in this House. SOME BON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WOODROW: In fact he really speaks well, and I think that this really adds to the dignity of the House of Assembly. And that is really one thing,! think)that this House and Newfoundland -can be proud of.

And I also noted that the petition comes from 360 of his constituents and this represents a large number of people in his riding. It 2323

March 9, 1977 Tape 847 PK - 3 Mr. Woodrow: also is doing something for a-model community, even the name itself Comfort Cove would make one feel like going there. And also it brings out another factor and that is the example of how Rural Development is helping in the rural areas of the Province. And I also~ before I sit downJ I want to say how proud I am that our Minister of Transportation and Communications has stood up and given his support, I have found him always to be extremely fair and honest, and he must realize as he stands to reply to any petition that-he has fifty~one districts.

But there is one thing about it he certainly tries to help every district regardless of what they represent to this Province. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! ~ 2324

¥.arch 9, 19 77 Tape 848 IB-1 ~iR. . SPEAKER: The hon. member for Baie Verte-~fuj'_ te Bay. ~!R • RI!'IEOUT : }'r. Speaker, this may be· the day for native sons to present petitions. I have one signed by 410 residents of Fleur de Lys and Coachman's rove. And as a native son of Fleur de Lys I would like to present the petition. The prayer of the petition, ~'r. Speaker, is rather a co!l'!l!lon prayer that we get in petitions in this House. But I think the overtones of the petition are probably ~ore important than a number that we hear taking into context the situation.

The prayer of the petition, Sir, asks that the sixteen mile ·stretch of road from Fleur de Lys and Coachman's Cove to Baie llerte be upgraded and p~ved. Now in its own right, Sir, the prayer is a good one. There are 150 or so men who travel from those t~~ communities to work in Advocate Mines in Baie Verte. There are a couple of hundred school children Who travel that road daily, twice daily to commute to school in Baie Verte.

And,of course,since Baie Verte is the service center of the Peninsula everybody in those two communities one time or another during the week travel to Baie Verte ( for groceries, banking services, hospital and so on • Besides that there are a million peunds or so of fish to come out of those two communities each year to be transported over that road and down ! the Baie Verte Peninsula to the fish plant in LaScie. That, Sir, would be case enough to have the road upgraded and paved.

But there is a greater case and a greater fact to be ta~en into consideration.and that is that the preliminary reports from the experts who came down to the Baie Verte area last Spring, in June, from the Vount Sinai School of Medicine in New York indicate very strongly that the asbestos fibers in the dust of that road can be and are very hazardous to the health of the people of that area. That I bel:i.eve, Sir, makes the case more strong than anything else could.

There are school children travelling that road along with the adults and the experts feel that those people are exposing them- selves daily to the harmful asbestos fibers that have become imbedded in the road dust in that area. ~ 2325

:P."arch 9, 1977 Tape 848 IB-2 ¥R. RIDEOn.T : The people are therefore concerned about it. They want the government to take action because of that very fundamental point that the health of the people in that particular area could be in a hazardous condition because of the asbestos fibers in the road. ~~r. Speaker, I support the petition whole-heartedly. I hope that the minister and that the government will see fit to act on this particular petition this year. The need is justified certainly when we look at the health aspects. I support the petition.

I table it and ask that it. be referred to the department to which it relates. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. SPEAKE~: The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. RODDEF: ~r. Speaker, I rise to support the petition which was presented by my friend and colleague from Baie "rerte-white B:!y O.fr. Rideout) ~~ho presented it on behalf of 410 residents of Fleur de Lys and Frenchman's Cove. 'MR. RIDEOUT : Coachman's Cove. MR. HODDER: I am sorry, Coachman's Cove. Frenchman's Cove is in another area of the Province. Mr.

Speaker, I believe that this is one of the areas where the Department of Transportation and Communications must be able to take prompt action. This road,as my friencl and colleague pointed out 1 is one which is used by the majority of the· people. It is a road over which fish products are carried , it is a road over which school children go and it is a road which has been shown to be a health hazard. Now I realize that the Minister of Transportation and Communications has many priorities.

But in this particular case, in a case of a health hazard in the Province, I think the Department of Transportation and Communications and the minister must act quickly to see that this problem is overcome. I heard of this problem many months ago. And I think that the member should not have to be up speaking on this particular problem now because I think that that problem should have been looked after for long ago. Thank you, ~r. Speaker. SO~ RON. ME}ffiERS: Fear, hear! Z326

March 9, 1977 Tape 848 IB-3 MP_. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I suvport the prayer of the petUion presented by the member for Baie Verte (Mr. Rideout). It is a very, very important petition, Mr. Speaker, that the hon. gentleman presented because of the health implications, because of the health hazard -involved in driving over that road, ~r. Speaker.

Only a couple of days ago . we heard the ~inister of Transportation and Communications, I think, reassure the House that there was no health hazard from the asbestos fibers that are flying around in the air in and around the community of Baie Verte.- But, Sir, there seems to be a difference of -,opinion. ~y hon. friend says that the experts from the Yount Sinai School of Medicine indicated that there was a health hazard. The ¥.inister of Transportation reassured the House a few days ago there was no health hazard. Now, Mr.

Speaker, personally I am inclined to agree with the gentleman from the Mount Sinai School of ~edicine. Z3Z7

March 9, 1977 Tape No. 849 NM- 1 MR. NEARY: I, myself Sir, lived and worked in a mining community practically all my life. I worked with a mining company for twenty-one years over on Bell Island when we had . . iron ore s~oc~p~led on the surface, they had conveyer belts moving around and a concentration plant where you had all kinds of dusttand I can say to this bon. House, Mr. Speaker, in all sincerity that I think it was possible to get silicosis on the surface.

A report was done recently out in Buchans that indicated that not only get miners contact silicosis in the mine in Buchans but the people who lived on the surface, _who had never been underground in their lives could get silicosis on the surface and I - MR. YOUNG: You were never un~~rground in your life. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the bon. gentleman wou!d probably like to put me underground. The bon. gentleman will never get the chance. Mr. Speaker, as far as I am concerned, Sir, there is a very definite health hazard involved in this sixteen mile stretch of road.

It is something that the government should take into consideration when they are looking at their priorities . .. - for reconstructing and paving roads next year. I believe this particular stretch of road. Sir, should get the number one priority. Mr. Speaker, you can go down to Baie Verte today and if nobody thinks that the asbestos fibres are not floating around everywhere ,----when you wake up in the morning with the wind in a certain direction you can write _your __ llame on the winshield of a car. Mr.

Speaker, by the same token, are not these fibres settling on the road and when a car or a truck or a bus drives over the road are they not stirred up and people inhale them into their lungs, little children going to 2328

March 9, 1977 Tape No. 849 NM- 2 MR. NEARY: school~ It is a very~ very serious situation, Mr. Speaker, and something that has to be rectified at an earlier a date as possible. Another reason I support the petition _ I believe it was the Fleur de Lys School that the School Board down there closed down a year or so ago and I think I had to give my hon. friend a hand to get him to keep it open, the elementary school. Did they not close it down and then eventually they changed their mind and kept it open. The people refused to send their children over that road into the - MR. RIDEOUT: Tilt Cove. MR.

NEARY: In Tilt Cove'! Weli I thought I had some dealings with Fleur de Lys too. MR. ROBERTS : The same coast but the wrong road. MR. NEARY: But anyway, Mr. Speaker, I support the prayer of the petition, Sir. .: My hon. friend made a very strong . - -- - ·- -~ - - .. case but I believe, Sir, that every member of this House> on either si~e of the HouseJshould get up and support this petition, because, Sir, the lives, the health of the people who live in that area are in danger every tfme a car or a truck or a bus goes over that stretch of highway. And, Mr.

Speaker, I think it is our duty as elected representatives of the people to see that that road is reconstructed and paved at an early a date as possible. SOME -liON. MEMBERS : Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, although not a native son of Fleur -de Lys I would like to stand in support of the petition .. --a- - · -- presented by my colleague for Baie Verte - White Bay (Mr. Rideout).

There is no question that whenever the question of health or safety of people are involved then I think that the government should show top priority, give top priority in any government programme of any nature •. I think in the case 2329

March 9, 1977 Tape No. 849 NM- 3 MR. STRACHAN: of the people of Fleur de Lys to Baie Verte, the reason~because of the mine being so close,the dust hazard_ and the attendent risk from asbestosis, that the Department of Transportation should, wi~h utmost speed, bring about the paving of the road as requested in the prayer of the petition. We have similar situations elsewhere in the Province. l know that a great many of us would like to see many roads paved.

We have similar situations in many other parts of the Province where the health and the safety of the people is involved_ ,__ap.~ 'a similar situation being on the Labrador Coast where we require airstrips, not highways, and the safety of the people involved there because every time they try to move or transport back and forth they take their lives in their own hands, not due to the: airlines. but due to the flying conditions and landing conditions. ADd it is exactly the same in this case here.

The people of Fleur de Lys and Baie Verte should get that road, paved quickly, speedily and hopefully as soon as the -Winter is over. I support the prayer of the petition. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! --- -- -- ~~ -·-- 2-330 .,

March 9, 1977 Tape no. 850 Page 1 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I feel it is imperative for me to speak on this petition based on the comments made so far and particularly those comments made by the memb~ for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). I would like to correct the statement that was made by the hon. gentleman, because it is an incorrect statement, a statement to the effect that I told this House of Assembly that there was no health hazard because of the potential asbestos dust in the road dust in the

section of ro&d from Baie Verte, Coachman's Cove, Fleur de Lys and also out to Seal Cove. What I did say, Mr. Speaker - and I repeat now- is that tests carried out by the Department of Transportation and Communications could not determine that there was asbestos dust in the road dust. I did qualify the statement by saying that the Department of Transportation will await the report of Dr. Selikoff before they will determine, as a department,whether or not there is asbestos dust in the road dust.

I will refer to statements made last Fall to the effect that there was ·a health hazard, and the reports in the media were attributed to Dr. Selikoff. An official of the Department of Transportation, a senior official, the deputy minister, contacted Dr. Selikoff to enquire with regards to statements made to the media. In a very polite way Dr. Selikoff told us· in the Department of Transportation to mind our own business. . --.. -- ----· The report was not being compiled for the Department of Transportation and Communications, it was being compiled for the Department of Health. So, Mr.

Speaker, until a report is received from Dr. Selikoff to my colleague, the Minister of Health, and until that report indicates conclusive evidence that there is asbestos dust, we should not surinise or indicate in anyway atttbe present time that there is a health hazard. 2331

March 9, 1977 Tape no. 850 Page 2 - mw Mr. Morgan. There is a potential health hazard but it has not been proven to date. So we will deal with the road and the petition , forgetting about the potential health hazard, because if there is a proven health hazard, I am sure that my colleagues in Cabinet will deal with in the same view that I will deal with it as a very serious urgent matter.

But now we have to deal with the road and with some other roads around the Province, roads that need repair and reconstruction and paving. .The road is approximatley sixteen miles in length which will cost, according to the engineering estimates of the department, more than $2 million. The neighbouring road at · Seal Cove will cost a further $2 million to reconstruct in preparation for paving.

These roads are the same as many other roads around the Province except with one exception, and that is I am of the opinion that there are more people travelling back and forth to work because of the asbestos mines in Baie Verte. But we have hundreds of roads around the Province used exclusively every dav, each and every day by school buses transporting students back and forth to school and also people going back and forth to work daily. So, Mr. Speaker, this morning I met with a delegation from the Coachman's Cove-Fleur de Lys.

In fact this morning I met with five delegations :from around the Province which indicates the activity of ministers in this administration. _,.and I assured the delegation that number one, · we will include these roads on the Baie Verte Peninsula in our discussions and submissions to the federal level of government in the upcoming DREE_~gre~ent which we hope to sign in 1977, because we feel it is an extension of the road to Baie Verte known as Route 410.

And hopefully the federal government will be sympathetic to our request and include these roads, and in particular, the road to Coachman's Cove- Fleur de Lys in the upcoming DREE roads agreement. I also assured them if the funds cannot be found provincially this year, because of - I repeat - the potential health hazard that we will this Summer again, in the early part of this Summer,do the same as last Summe~-, we will spray the road with liquid calcium 2332

March 9, 19772c. Tape no. 850 Page 3 - mw Mr. Morgan. as a dust control measure. These two commitments were made. And I also said - and I repeat now in the House of Assembly - consideration will be given,as the other roads around the Province will also be given~consideration to upgrading this year. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, I realize a number of hon. gentlemen have spoken on this matter, but perhaps I might be allowed a word or two and, of course, we have not heard as yet from the member for Bay of Islands who I expect will have a word or two to say as well. Mr. Speaker, I would like to support the petition. I think it has been well-presented by my friend and colleague from Baie Verte- White Bay (Mr. Rideout), and I think a number of very worth-while points have been made by the gentleman from LaPmile (Mr. Neary) and the gentleman from Bonavista South (Mr. Morgan), the Minister of Transportation and Communications.

My friend from Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) · has always added light and reason and heat 2333

~arch 9, 1977 Tape 851 IB-1 MR. ROBERTS: to t~e debate, Sir, in his own inimitable style. }fr. Speaker, the issue really raised by this petition is not simply one of paving a few miles of road as important and as desirable as that may be. I think it has been made quite clear in the comments back and forth by individual members that they view the issue as being more than simply whether a few miles of blacktop should be laid on the road between Baie Verte going down as far as Coachman's Cove and Fleur de Lys.

Rather, Sir, it is a very sertous health question. 1-le all know that asbestos is a very dangerous substance and poses an imminent threat to health and well-being. We do not know as yet whether there has been any significant damage done to anybody exposed to the asbestos mines as Baie Verte and the fibers and the dust that comes from those mines. We will not know that until Dr. Selikoff has made his report. But as I understand the issue 'here - and perhaps the minister can confirm it - it is essentially this, that if Dr.

Selikoff and his . . team at the Mount Sinai School of Medicine _in New York confirm~ whenever they make their report Which I gather is fairly soon, confirm that the road to Coachman's Cove and Fleur de Lys has in its road bed, in its road surface, dust of a nature and of a type that gives rise to asbestos fibers thus presenting a danger far beyond, you know, any other road in the Province and if in fact that is the case, then the administration will undertake to lay the pavement this year and thus keep the dust down. Now I think that is the sensible thing.

I think that everybody in the Province could understand that and everybody in the Province would accept it. MR. }AORG.AN: We must reconstruct before we pave. MR. ROBERTS: The minister makes,the point ~mich I think is a valid one that we must reconstruct before we pave. But in reply I must make the point which I have often made before, that the minister's officials have a mania for reconstruction. I wish they would replace that with a mania for paving in addition to just reconstruction. !sometimes we are building roads in this Province that are far beyond 2334

¥arch 9, 1977 Tape 851 IB-2 MR. ROBERTS: any standards we need and the result of building them to that high standard, overly high standard is that we have to do without the blacktop Ymich after all is the comfort and the ease in a road. The road to Coachman's Cove and Fleur de Lys is not a trunk highway and never will be. It is a road that serves those communities. It is very important to them. But what is very important is that they have an adequate road with blacktop, and I think they would prefer that to a super highl~ay without the blacktop.

Certainly from the health point o£view the essential thing is the blacktop because that is what keeps down the dust and removes the dust menace. So I take it we have the minister's confirmation on that point .• The question now will be, what Dr. Selikoff and his team recommen~ and we will know that very, very shortly. I would hope as well, Sir, the minister does not build up the hopes of the House and people with respect to the DFEE agreement. The DREE agreement for this year is signed. The minister last year signed a two year agreement and the second year is this year.

The tenders, some of them have been called _, others will --doubtless be called shortly. ' - ----- -···- - - , --·-- And there will be no new work undertaken this year other than that which is in the agreement which was made public last year when it was signed. So we are at least a year away. Of course the minister would have to agree as well that DFEE have accepted only trunk roads. I do not think by any standard now employed it is possible to conclude the road from Baie Verte out to Coachman's Cove and Fleur de Lys can be called a trunk road.

The definition of trunk road may be like beauty, it may lie in the eye of the beholder, Mr. Speaker. But, you know, there are trunk and trunkier and trunkiest, and on that scale of trunk, trunkier and trunkiest I would think this would be a trunk road and not the trunkiest road. MR. MORGAN: It is the continuation of a trunk road. ~. ROBERTS: True it is the continuation of a trunk road, Sir, as the 2335

~,arch 9, 1977 Tape 851 IB-3 ~-11',. ROBERTS : minister tells us but then again in that sense the road to St. Julien's population fifty-seven is a continuation of the trunk road which runs from the Northern Peninsula High1:·ray. I mean you can take any point and stretch it to an absurdity, and I suspect we are in danger of doing that here. The important thing, Sir, is we should not rely on DP~E for this purpose. We are entitled to rely on DP.EE for other purposes and we should and we do and we must. But in this case if Dr.

Selikoff and his officials say that in their opinion there is a definite hazard to health, that road must be paved this year because we are playing with something that we cannot play with and should not play with and I know the minister will not play with, and that is the health and well-being of the people who must use that road, young and old alike. So I take it we have the minister's assurance, Sir. What we need now is Dr. Selikoff's report and that report will determine the action. Thank you very much, Sir. SOME HON. ME}IIEERS : Hear, hear! 2336

March 9, 1977 Tape 852 PK - 1 NOTICES OF MOTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow heg leave to introduce a bill '.'An Act To Amend The Fishing Industry Advisory Board Act, 1975." SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear~ MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Provincial Affairs and the Environment. MR. A. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to intr()duce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Unconscionable Transactions Relief Act." MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations. MR. J. ROUSSEAU: Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act 'to Provide Uniform Minimum Standards Of Conditions Of Employment In The Province", and also, "An-Act To Style The Department Of Manpower And Industrial Relations Act As A Department Of Labour And Manpower." MI.. SPEAKER: The hon. · Minister of Justice. MR. T. A. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Wind Up The Permanent Marine Disaster Fund." ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Finance. MR •. W.

DOODY: Ther e are two here, Your Honour, both questions from the member from LaPo~le (Mr. Neary). One is Question No. 101 dated February 14, Who were the present members of the Public Service Commissions? The present members are Mr. Alfred J. Gosse, Chairman, Mr. Jack -Burt-. Commissioner, Vice-chairman, Mr. Vincent J. Rossiter, Commissioner:~-What are th~ir individ~l-;alaries? The present salaries · are Chairman $31,500; Commissioner-Vice-Chairman $27,566, Commissioner $25,719. What are the terms of their --·""""""'-----appointments?

Each Commissioner - -- --holds ~fiice~(iuriiig ' good behaviour ·-. -- -- - --- - - - ----~ in line with the Public Service Commission Act of May 1, 1973. ------- -- ------- --- -------. ,_ Z337

March 9, 1977 Tape 852 PK - 2 Mr. Doody: The other Question is No.l31 dated Monday, February 21~ Inquiry from the member from LaPoile regarding total amount paid in subsidies to the Newfoundland Transportation Company for the months of July, August, September, 1976. The total subsidy was fo_r_ eight weeks, a total of $11,200 a week, that was for July and August.

There was no subsidy paid in September and there were no other remuneratiol'!s or expenses paid. 'I'?~~e_ w~re _m~ny other - yes, I will table them.- ther _e were many other questions which the bon. member had ·directed to me which relate to other departments; Industrial Development, the Premier's office, Labrador Affairs and so on , ·and I have _s.;nt them on t~ .. ~he . various denartml:mb: to which they relate. I have other answers · for you coming up. MR.. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. W. CARTER: Mr.

Speaker, I beg leave to answer Questions on the Order Paper Nos. 47 and 49 both asked by the hon. member from Fogo (Capt. Winsor). MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. -MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I table the answer to 1 Question No. 198 asked by the bon. member from LaPoile on today's Order Paper. ORAL QUESTIONS: MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, the Premier I see is still absent.

OUt mortgaging a large part of our future, I guess, to the blue-eyed Arabs of Alberta, and so I must direct the question to the Minister of Justice in his capacity as the deputy leader of the administration. Can the minister tell us, Sir, whether his reflection overnight has led him to conclude . whether -i t was - proper . or u;p; ~p~r for the government party to have accepted and perhaps even to have solicited a donation' of more than $50,000 from the Scrivener firm during the 1973 calendar year, or 1972 calendar year ·-I am sorry, said donation being evidenced by the receipt which I understand Mr.

Richard Greene has now confirmed having issued? 2338

March 9 , 1977 Tape 852 PK - 3 MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, I have to confess that I did not reflect upon the problem overnight, and my answer is the same as I had given yesterday, that on tomorrow, tomorrow I believe being Friday.when the hon. Premier returns - MR. ROBERTS: Is he not _due J~ack until Friday? __ MR. HICKMAN: Well he is signing a mortgage today - MR. SIMMONS: Is he gett~ng -~other loan? MR. ROBERTS: Another holiday? MR.

HICKMAN: - from the great Canadians, these great Canadians, the Albertians, the Government of Alberta, a great Canadian Government, with a great Canadian concept>proud of our credit rating and when he returns, Mr. Speaker, I shall direct it to the attention of the Leader of the Government. ·soME RON. MEMBERS: Hear., hear! MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Go West young man go We~t. -AN HON. MEMBER: That is right • MR.

ROBERTS: Can the minister te11 us whether this is a question on which -he - feels it necessary that he must await the administration to take a stand~ My question has been directed to him as an individual • :Ooea h~ -- ... .__ -.. - -- - ---- - 2339

March 9,1977 Tape 853 AH-1 MR. ROBERTS: feel as a member of the government and as the Minister of 3ustice that it is proper for a company doing business lv.lth the government to have solicited or to have accepted or both more than $50,000 in the circumstances in which this particular gift-donation was made. MR. HIC~~: · Mr. Speaker, I do not pro~ose to give my own_personal opinions on any matter coming before the House.

I do not think it is the P.~eoga.tive . of a minister to give his own personal opinion .I have to confess .. ~n abysmal lack of knowledge as to how party funds are collected for any of the recognized political parties in this Province and I therefore should not>and it would be most imprudent of me~to arrive at personal decisions and personal conclusions based on practices that other people may have had more experience with than I. MR -~ ROBERTS: A further supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR:--R.OBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, has the minister in his capacity as the Chief-Law Enforcement Officer of this Province taken any steps to enquire into the circumstances which ; _su~rou~d - .J!n<! - ~h_!.s .J; Sir, is not a question I have asked before - -·- ··--- --- -··- I now ask if the minister in his capacity as the Chief Law Enforcement Officer of the Crown has looked into~or caused steps to be taken to look into the circumstances of this admitted donation of ,more than $50,000 of which he tells us he has no personal knowledge. MR.. SPEAKER-: - ---,The hon. minister -of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, my responsibility as Minister of Justice,and I always do it assiduously ,quickly and without delay , order _. _ _- any investigation into any matter where there is·. prima - facie -evidence of criminality or a breach of the law. I have not seen any evidence thereof and unless and until I do

~1arch 9 ~1977 Tape 853 AH-2 MR. HICKMAN: I feel - that I would be going beyond the bounds of my duty and responsibility to conduct an investigation and if indeed- MR. NOLAN: Well done Alec. :r-m. HICIO'f.AN: -any matters have been investigated then I would suggest to this House that it would be incumbent upon me to keep that an absolute secret • C~nfi..dentiality· ,_ it _!!lUSt be the order of the day on any investigation that is ongoing MR. SPEAKER: Ron. member for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the President of Treasury Board.

It relates again to the matters I have based questions on in the last couple of days~he Labrador Linerboard. I wonder would the minister .indicate to the House whether the government and/or the board ha.S authorized any_ formal inves~igation into Lab Linerboard . expenditures over the past two or three years either investigation by the police or by an outside investigating agency ? --MR ~ - DOODY: - -, There is an annual audit done each year by a recognized accounting firm~-~e~ have never brought forward any evidence to indicate to us that an investigation should be conducted.

There was one - __ R~ ~nvestigat:!,on _ nth which we are famtliar_ ~ith a certain individual and I do not know what has happened to that particular individualJquite apart from the fact underway,~hat -~ _gentleman is no longer with the firm. So, •the answer is no there have been no investigations other than these I things which I have mentioned. There really was no reason. MR. SIMMONS: Hr. Speaker, a supplementary • . MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The origional questioner. - ~; - siMMONS: Mr.

Spe~er, do I understand from the minister that t the only investigation that he is aware of is that one which relates to one former employee? .. 2341.

March 9,1977 Tape 853 AH-3 MR. DOODY: It is the only one that I can recall of the top of my head, yes Sir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Is the minister then aware of an investigation) not necessarily one launched by his department or his board of directors , is he aware of any investigation into the DREE funding involved in Labrador Linerboard? MR. DOODY: In· the DREE funding? MR. ROBERTS: All the .DREE money that has. gone . in and has being misspent. - . MR.

DOODY: No, I did not know that there had be~n ~nv DREE money misspent, Your Honour, nor am I aware of any investigation into any alleged .mi~spe.P.dinst of DREE _monev ~ MR. SIMMONS: A supl)lementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The origional questioner. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker- MR. ROBERTS: They are not telling you very much from Stephenville. HR.·· DOODY: That could very well be. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, the minister a moment ago referred to a former employee who is under investigation .• Will he indicate to the House whether that is the same employee whom he identified~ not by name but by function,yesterday when answering the question ___ .,,.. ___ _ relating to the contract involving ok .......___., _..:_ _ ____ --------- ... ,_ ... 4_. ________ •• --- - -- - --·--· . 2342

March 9, 1977 Tape No. 854 NM- 1 -MR.. SIMMONS : J. G. Bailey? He refer~ed yesterday to an employee who had been responsible for the expediting of that contract and who is now no longer with the company; are these tWo individuals one and the same, the one he has mentioned today and the one we talked about yesterday in the earlier line of questioning~ MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Finance. MR.

DOODY: The individual whom I mentioned yesterday as being the ' signator of that particular agreement is no longer with the company but that is an entirely unrelated thing and it has got nothing to do with any impropriety or any illegality that I am aware of. The gentleman to whom I was referring to as being investigated by the RCMP is a gentleman who was all~ged~y removing some materials to help in a stadium renovation or some such thing as that. That is the one that I - . MR.. ROBERTS: N~t - ~o~t_ o_f_~-~~a<!ium, _sort of a private home .• MR. DOODY: Well whatever, yes. MR.

SPEAKER: A supplementary, the hon. member for Conception Bay South, to the hon. member. -- - -- I am -~'!O~~erlng if the minister could shed some light on information coming to us regarding the sale of equipment that was purchased, expensive equipment, for the Linerboard operation either in Stephenville or in Labrador_-::__!~- ___ _ have been informed that it is on sale in some cases now ----------- in Montreal for a fraction of the original cost _-:_ could the minister shed some light on this as President of the Board? MR.. SPEAKER: _,The bon. Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: As Chairman of the Board. MR.

NOLAN: Chairman, I am sorry. MR. DOODY: That question is. on the Order ~aper by two different members and there are various sub-sections to that question. I have undertaken on two oecasions to get the 2343

March 9, 1977 Tape No. 854 NM - 2 MR. DOODY: information and find out indeed if there is some truth in the allegations and to what extent. As soon as I can get it available- I contacted Stephenville and asked them to get the information for me. _As soon as I get it I will present it to the House. MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I will recognize ~ne further supplementary on this topic now. MR.

NOLAN: Would the minister consider in view of what my bon. friend mentioned in remarks yesterday or the day before here in the House7 and others, about the matter of $400,000 and some of the ~pecula_~ion in the press ~nd so on~~h~t perhaps there ___ is,. a need for a royal commission on the whole Linerboard operation over the last three or four years? Would he consider setting up such a commission? SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKE..~: The bon. Minister of Justice. _MR. DOOI!Y _: _ - -· _ No, certainly not on the information that has been brought to light during the past several days.

I have certainly no grounds or reason to recommend to government that a royal commission be set up to investigate - MR. NEARY: A royal commissl~n. MR. - or any kind of commission set up to investi~at~ •. DOODY:. the Labrador Linerboard operation. At the present time there __ 4 _____ --- • is an advisory group ~o- ~~~ ·_s tudy-ing with their oeonle the various facets of the operation out there. They will be p~e~~~~g-- ~~eport to us shortly. If they demonstrate to us some need for an investigation or suggest a certain course of action be followed then this government will then consider them.

Certain the contract that you are referring to and which had some speculation about it in the press)as has been stated 7 does not 2344

March 9, 1977 Tape 854 JM- 3 MR •. DOODY: · suggest any impropriety whatsoever. It was a contract that was entered into in good faith by two people. Subsequent events demonstrated the contract to be unfavourable to both parties~ as it happened, and both parties appear1 _ to J::tave lost a considerable amount of money. It was a judgement decision made by management both of the contractor and of the company and eventually they were forced to terminate it at a considerable loss to both parties. There was no impropriety that I am aware of and there was no legal advice. MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile followed by the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the bon. and punchy Miii'ister of Finance and -'president of the Treasury Board if he intends to bring down a budget soon. The minister indicated to the House the budget would be brought down sometime in late February and we are about ten days overdue now. When can we expect the budget·: to be brought down? MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, the thought of the member for LaPoile being ten days overdue is absolutely delightful, Your Honour.

As a matter of fact I think that is the first bright spot we have had in a couple of days. The budget will be brought down and presented to this lion. House just as soon as it is prepared and . ready and ample notice will be given. The House can be assured of that and I have given that information to the House before and t am sure that we will just have to wait until the event presents itself. The happy event - it may be ten days overdue or it may come full-term, I do not know. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, will the hon. minister indicate to the House if the budget is prepared and ready and in the hands of the printers? Are the ministers finished now with going over the budget with a fine-toothed comb? Is this preparatory work done? MR. DOODY: The-question that the hon. member just raised shows 2345

• March 9, 1977 Tape 854 JM- 4 MR. DOODY: how far into the inner workings of government he was during the previous achninistration. He obviously is not very well aware of how the nole process works. No, Sir, it has not gone to the printers. It has nqt been fully prepared .and when it does go to the printers the hon. member wi,ll know about it when it is tabled in this hon. House. 2346

March 9, 1977 Tape no. 855 Page 1 - mw MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, could the minister tell the House whether the budget will be brought down before the end of the current fiscal year, the end of March? ·MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I must call the han. gentleman's attention to the rule which prohibits the asking of questions with slight variations. And certainly I would regard that as a question with a quite slight variation to a former one. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR.

SPEAKER: I recognize the han. gentleman for an additional supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the minister did not make it clear whether all the preparatory work for the budget is complete yet? Is it complete? Does the minister now have the finished product? When I say, go to the printers, I know -where it is printed, but. is it finished? You know, when can we expect ~o have the budget? Will it be before the end of the present fiscal year? -- The han. - ulin:i..s.ter. MR. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, if the han. punchy member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) can just control himself, he will be given the information at the appropriate time. The members of government are preparing the budget, getting it ready, and will present it to the House. The han. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) will have to just contain himself if he possibly can. MR. NEARY: I am not going to get it from the printers, you know. MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Windsor - Buchans. MiC-Fi.!GRT:- -- I have a question, Mr. Speaker, for the han. Minister of Forestry.

Is the minister now in a position to advise the Bouse whether or not the areas for experimental spraying has been designated and if so where they are? ~ 2347

March 9, 1977 Tape n6. 855 Page 2 - mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR.. MAYNARD : Mr. Speaker, we have identified the areas that we propose to do experimental field test spraying in this year, and within the next two days I will be presenting a detailed explanation to the House. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR .. FLIGHT: Is the minister aware of the paper companies intentio~s with regards to their future harvesting operations?

And do the paper companies intend to concentrate on harvesting the over-mature stands or the seriously infested.~l?ud!orm ·infested timber stands in their immediate future harvesting operations? MR.. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR.. MAYNARD : The paper companies are generally following the same concept that ~overnment is following and that is resource -- roads to open up over-mature and insect infested timber stands so these can be harvested first. And they are working very closely with government on this from day to day.

We have a Forest Management Joint Committee that is set up between government and the two companies, and this committee monitors all the operations carried out tn the Province. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementarv. MR. SPEAKER: A suppiementarv. MR. FLIGHT: -----u.a~~tlie~pB:"per- com:~---~ies requested irlcreased spending in the Provincial Government's ,_~c~es~ Roads Programme? Would the minister advise the House as to whether the paper companies have requested increase4 expenditures in the access road~ -- ~------ programme? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MAYNARD: I am not aware, Mr.

Speaker, of any request being made of that nature. 2348

March 9, 1977 Tape no. 855 Page 3- mw MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River followed by the hon. member for Conception Bay South. - . MR. STRACHAN: Mr. Speaker, a question for the Minister of Municipal Affairs. Could the minister tell us whether in the last few months - I refer from October last year to now - he has incorporated any new communities? I am referring to community councils, of course. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. -But the Local Improvement District of Buchans is obviously the only one - - ~-_.up to this point. MR.. STRAClfAN: A supplementary. MR. SBAI<ER: A supplementary. MR. STRACHAN: Mr.

Speaker, could the minister tell us whether he is prepared to honour the pqblic commitment he made to the community of Rigolet in which he was going to incorporate them before December 31, 1976? Could he tell us whether he has any intentions of living up to that belated, as it isc t.---.i.-s- now- -----o-tw_o_ mo_ n-:t:oh-s----;;1-:a-:-t-e-.- -- - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! -~------ ---- . : The hon. gentleman will please restrict to ,-- actual question ·.- · MR. STRACHAN: Thank you for your ·ruling, Mr. Speaker.

I wonder if the minister could tell us whether he is prepared to incorporate any further communities, including the community of Rigolet,as he previo~!Y stated? MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, we are looking at the incorporation of several communities. At this point I do not know if Rigolet is one of them. I did not, to clear the point, promise any community, including Rigolet, that they . wou~d b-e -inc orpo~a ;_~<!_ by aJ1Y ~~e. I said . - .. - that we would look at it and hopefully if we could we would, but L---- 2349

March 9, 1977 Tape 856 IB-1 MR. DINN: I certainly did not give any commitment. Any commitments which I give I look after. SO¥E RON. }~~ERS: Rear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The bon. member for Conception Bay South. ¥R. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, a question for the - AN RON. MEMBER: Would you permit me a supplementary? MR. SPEAKER: As of right now the hon. gentleman would be precluded from getting back to it. MR. NOUN: A question ~or the Minister of Justice.

In vie~r of the remarks made yesterday 1 with which he may be familiar,by Father Hickey to the Kiwanis Club concerning juveniles drinking in the various booze emporiums throughout the Province, has he given any consideration to the points raised publicly in the press on this matter? And has he considered in the past perhaps something with your driver's license or a picture or soroething to make it1 for tavern owners)easier to identify people and so on i_!l _this regard? MR. SPEAKER: .The bon. Minister of Justice. MR. HICKMAN: Mr.

Speaker, the police have been instructed from time to time to enforce the laws and enforce them very, very rigidly as they relate to the serving of alcoholic beverages in a public place to minors. I know there are difficulties encountered in doing that. I have to confess that I have been party to debates in this Rouse and listened to debates in this Rouse and other discussions on the question of having identification. There are some pretty unfavourable and I : ~h~k - \ unsavoury overtones that go with . that kind of registration.

I believe there are other ways that bartenders can fairly accurately ascertain the age of a person Who seeks to be served alcoholic beverages - MR. NOLAN: l-Tould you care to tell us? ., _MR. HICKMAN: --·--- - ~ --'responsi'Pility and they are doing it. You know, obviously they cannot go into every tavern every night, Mr. Speaker, but they have been instructed and they have been doing it and they have been enforcing it from time to time with respect to prosecuting those who sell alcoholic - 2350

March 9, 1977 Tape 856 IB-2 ~. HIC!OfA...'l': beverages contrary to the law to minors. Let me assure anyone who is listening that they will continue to do that. I believe that there are some amendments presently in the process of coming before this hon. House this year to make the police job a little easier in certain areas of identification and in certain

definitions of what constitute~__!_ pu!>lic p_l_ac~. That has been cre4ting some problems 1 I understand,with respect to certain law enforcements under the Alcoholic Liquors Act. MR. ROBERTS: Is the minister ~ayi~g we are going to be asked to present identification now? MR. HICKMAN: No, no, no, no, no, no. I said there are some other areas in the enforcement of the Alcoholic Liquors Act that has created some problems for the police. One is the definition of a public place. MR. ROBERTS: Well .ft is only in relation to the Alcoholic Liquors Act? MR. HICKMAN: Oh yes. - -, MR. NEARY: And drinking in cars. MR.

HICKMAN: That sort of thing, yes. And that would appear to, in my opinion, require same further amendments in order to better identify them, that is being done. And my colleague the hon. minister responsible or who answers for the Board ~~just indicated to me that ~ha~ - _w~~- !8 __ ~~-~ii~_~e~e-~~~w. s-o -- fiop~f~l~y - work done rather-.:- we will have -Ttbefor ·e--th; House. '-- --·-----~-- -- MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NOLAN: Mr.

Speaker, is the minister aware that there are cases, a number of cases that I know, but I am sure others · where clergymen have . actually had to go, at there uest of pare~ts, ----- ---- ·- --- - - -- ---- · into same of the booze emporiums to get children out? And7 I mean, can we be assured now that something will come before this House (1) to help to eliminate the problem; and (2) to provide some 2351. . . •

March 9, 1977 Tape 856 IB - 3 Mr. Nolan: funds from the Public Chest to help a situation that we have with alcoholism in this Province ~hat is very serious, more than we are doing now? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Justice. MR.. HICKMAN: Oh)well,the bon. ge~tleman from Conception Bay South is on to two different issues. ~ne is the question of law enforcement under the Alcoholic Liquors Act or whatever the Act is now called, and in particular the serving or selling in a public place of alcoholic beaverages to those under age. That is not a question, Mr.

Speaker, of bringing further legislation before this Reuse. MR. NOLAN: It is not? MR. HICKMAN: No. That, Mr. Speaker, is a twofold problem. MR. NOLAN: Does not the House have a right to know? MR. HICKMAN: . It- is __ a twofold problem. It is not a question of the House having the right to know. I am telling the House right now what the twofold problem is, Mr. Speaker. MR. NOLAN: Tell us now. I. MR. HICKMAN: One is strict enforcement of the law within the 0 capability and capacity of the police. And this they are doing. Secondly, Mr.

Speaker, let me pose this question, any minor, any person under age drinking, buying liquor rather, and that is the 0 • operative phrase, buying ·. alcoholic . beverage in a place L . --- --------------- ·--- licensed so to sell, the q~stio~ · I ask -:is ; ... · that is ~ 2352

March 9 , 19 77 Tape 857 AH-1 HR. RICKMAN: were are the parents, where are the parents? MR. NEARY: They are not ·in the classrooms. MR. RICKMAN: I think that is a very legitimate question to ask. MR. vffiiTE: .. Take the._ :;.el?pO~~ibilitv •- do not. m;~k.:•_ a speech. MR. HICKMAN: I would believe that if anyone- MR. NOLAN: There are two separate problems MR. HICKMAN: -and that is the second problem, one is law inforcement t and the other is the behavioural pattern, the behavioural leadership­ MR. -NOLAN:·-- -- - Of our whole society.

MR." HICKMAN: that -~ ~s ·shown in the home -:.And I say to this House that if a parent flaunts alcoholic beverages in front of his or her teen-age son or daughter it ill-behooves that parent to get up and scream the next day ,and say that same daughter bought booze in a licenced establishment when he or she was a year tm.der age. SOMlf RON. -MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. NOLAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary.The origional questioner. MR.

NOLAN: Has the minister considered perhaps ,raising the drinking age within government ~ Has--~ - consideration been_~ven __ _ -··-- ·---- _ ____, ____ _ ----- ----·- · -- ·-·- -- - - - -- - to that at all or · is it his intention,! mean the governments position to continue the way it is now? Perhaps the minister might be good enough to enlighten us on that matter '.- -- -~ - --- - -----~ - MR. SPEAKER: · __ The bon. minister. MR.. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker , obviously as one Minister of the Crown I should not and will not disclose what the government is presently considering at this time.

I will draw to the House's attention that a few years ago the great demand was to reduce the drinking age and if you recall the cry that 11 If a man or woman is. old enough to fight for his or her country then they are old enough to be able to buy booze~ Personally - That is what you said when you were Minister of Justice.at that time. 2353

March 9,1977 MR.. HICKMAN: MR. NOLAN: MR. HICKJvfAN: Tape 857 AH-2 No, no I was not Minister of Justice. Personally­ You were Minister of Health then. No, I think I was sitting right where the hon. gentleman is sitting now. MR. NOLAN: MR. HICKMAN: No, no, no. _ _He :Qave good _ memor~.as here. Personally, Mr. Speaker, and as a parent of four teen-age children, one I guess is now beyond his teens, I have grave reservations about the drinking age being down to eighteen •.

But if anyone is unwise enough to think that by increasing it to ninteen that this is going to affect to any noticeable degree that problem of drinking amongst minors he or-she should take their heads from out of the sand and have a look around them~ SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HICKMAN: promotes it. MR. SPEAKER: -and look at the society that condones it and Hon. member from LaP6ile followed by the hon. member for Burgeo"- ~ay D'Espoir. MR.

NEARY: Would the Minister of Transportation and Communication tell the House if the minister has been invited to meet with the Railway Unions and the Chamber of Commerce in Channel-Port aux Basques as a result of the threat that these people may loose their jobs in that community? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, yes I have been invited by the Chamber of Commerce and the members of the unions in the Port aux Basques area to meet with them. I have agreed to meet with them on March 18th, the unions in the afternoon and the Chamber of Commerce in the evening.

It is not with regards to a threat to the loss of their jobs , it is because they are concerned w fth ----L- the possibility of some affect on the Port . :awe Basques area 2354

March 9 , 19 77 Tape 857 AH-3 MR.MORGAN: with regards to the diversion of truck traffic from Port aux Basques to Argentia .So I am more than pleased to meet with them and to outline to them the plans of the department with regards to transportation in the general Port aux Basques area. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR. NEARY: Has the minister explored with.

Canadian National Railway the possibility of diye_!'_t}.!tg the freight that the minister is concerned about being transported py tractor-trailers over the Trans Canada Highway, diverting this freight onto rail instead of carrying · it over the Trans Canada Highway. Has the - -·--- .. - ~ minister explored this ~ossibility with Canadian National Railways? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR.MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I have not only explored that situation I have pursued it vigorously for the past ten months. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Rear, hear! MR.

MORGAN: Not only ~ith the __ CNR senior officials but with the Federal Minister of Transport, the Ron. Otto Lang and his officials. The unions have also pursued the same matter- SOME RON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. MORGAN: The matter was also brought to the attention of the Prime Minister of this country with regards to the - SOME RON. MEMBERS : Rear, hear! MR •. MORGAN: -downgrading of the railway services in this Province. -- .· ---- --- ---·- SOME liON. MEMBERS : Speech day. MR. MORGAN: Unfortunately, Mr.

Speaker, unless we get the federal level of government to change their user-pay concept as it applies to the Atlantic region, as I mentioned yesterday, ___ . ------ --- -- -------·---- 2355

March 9, 1977 Tape 858 JM- 1 MR. MORGAN: we are not going to get the freight back on the rails. To suggest, as I heard the hon. · gentleman from LaPoile yesterday in the media and I think he also mentioned it here in this assembly, to impose a large fee on the tractor-trailers in order to force the freight back on the rails that would be at the expense of the consumers of this proVince.

So rather than force the increase in two means of modesof . transport~- the rail has already gone up in their fr~ight rates : rather than force up the freight rates being charged by the truckers the strong suggestion of this administration is for the federal level of government to again,in an overall review of the CNR's rail freight activity in this province~increase the subsidies paid to CNR to enable them to reduce the freight rates and . put the freight back on the rails. MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: One final supplementary. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker ., o'!?viously the minister does not understand what the alternative is. It is rail and not diverting traffic. But, Sir, I want to ask the minister and I might say that - I know I cannot accuse the minister of deliberately misleading the House but only this morning I checked with CN and the minister has not been in touch with the local management of CN in connection with this freight thing. --- - MR.. SPEAKER: Order please! The hon •. gentleman is directed· to avoide debate.

MR.· NEARY: I want to ask the minister, Sir, if he has explored · ' the possibility with Canadian National of using a system that they have done a study on, a system known as piggy-back .. } Iri_. §r~er _ words carrying 1~~~-ght-so far by road and ca~ing it a certain distance by rail and maybe putting it back on the road again. Has the minister explored this alternative with Canadian National Railway of transporting freight across this island under the piggy- back method 'and if so what are the results ' of any negotiations -~.h~y _ _ _ may have had with Canadian National? 2356

March 9, 1977 Tape 858 JM- 2 MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I will confirm that I have had no meetings, discussions or consultations or · proposals .Put fo ~-i:r i!__ ~ to the local management of CNR in this province because unfortunately the local management7 who are indeed good individuals, good men, men like Mike Green and others who are involved with CNR in this province, do not make the decisions of CNR in this province. - ~-~-- :ar~ -- ~made in the plush offices in Montreal and other places in Canada. That is the unfortunate thing with regards to CNR in this province.

But we have put forward a proposal to the senior officials who make the decis ions and it has -ral1en -·c;n.-deat ea-rS: MR. NEARY: What is the proposal? MR. MORGAN: To give an example of CNR's attitude with regards to freight, the cost of moving freight by rail - Bowaters presently have to move all their pulpwood from Glenwood to Corner Brook simply because they could no~ come to ~ · agreement with CNR to keep on using that mode of transport. That is an example of CNR's attitude with regards to rail freight in this ·province. MR. NEARY: What about the pig~-back? Mr.

Speaker, the minister did· not answer my question about the piggy-back system. MR. SPEAKER: Order please! The bon. member for Burgeo-Bay D'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to return to my earlier subject involving Lab Liner. I understand the minister might have some information now and I will ask so as to give ' him the opportunity to answer. MR. DOODY: Mr.

Speaker, this is the information that the hon. member asked for yesterday and which I undertook to get ·for him as quickly as I could · • 'lt.. ', is in relation as to whether or not tenders had - been called for the contract that was subsequently awarded to Guy Bailey Ltd. 1 c . \• what were the costs and was BaileyJ indeed)in the t~cking business1 The implication was that he was, , 'r think, in the school bus business and owned perhaps a pickup truck or something to that effect. The message that I just got from 2357

March 9, 1977 Tape 858 JM- 3 MR. DOODY: Lab Linerboard was that tenders were indeed called and there were four companies who tendered. Alton Budgell tendered at $21.00 a cord, K and K Trucking tendered at $20.50 a cord, Windsor Transport tendered at $20.00 a cord~and Guy Bailey Ltd. tendered at $21.50 a cord which is $1.50 higher than the Windsor ~!~~~~~g_a_~~ - !_if~y-~ent::'l __ ~_~gh~~- t~a_n ~~~-~~-oye __ ~~dg~ll tender. MR. SIMMONS: To the highest of the four~ MR. DOODY: Yes, the reason for giving it to Guy- Bailey Ltd. was that his was the only contract that lived up to the specifications of the

schedule that was requested for delivery and the other people were not in the position to meet the specs and so the most economical and reasonable tenderer was the Guy Bailey Ltd. tender. Apparently Mr. Bailey and his family have been in the trucking business for many years. Apparently they have been in the trucking business ever since IOC went into Labrador City. ~-------- .--.--------------- ----- ·-----·- · 2358

March 9, 1917 Tape 859 PK - 1 Mr. Doody: He, I think, also has a school bus business in Baie Verte, but make no mistake about it,Your Honour, according to my information this company has been in the trucking business and the transport business for quite a long while. And if there is further information- of course all of this ~s _ I a~_ s~y~n& ~­ am making it public now and it can be checked and verified and if · there is further information needed we will try and get it for you. AN BON. MEMBER: A further supplementary. MR. HICKMAN: Orders of the Day. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The time is up • .

ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. HICKMAN: Motion 2. MR. SPEAKER: Motion 2, the adjourned debate. The bon. Minister of Consumer Affairs. MR. A. MURPHY: Mr. Speaker, I would just like to take a couple of moments to take

part in this debate on this resolution: ·

Be It Resolved that this House is gravely concerned with the state and sentiment of public: opinion in Labrador, and, realizing that this has the most serious implications for the future of this Province." I think I can agree without re$ervation, Sir, we are gravely concerned with the state and sentiment of public opinion in Labrador. My own partic:ular.experienc:e with Labrador has been · that for a few short months, Sir, I was Minister of Labrador Affairs while that department was just being phased out.

I might say before I get into my -remarks,from my ·own point of view ~_wgyld__like:_.tn... a~--------·---. - -- --- - --- -·· ·- -- how.·muc:h I enjoyed up to this point the debate that has taken place ~----:· this particular motion. It has been on the go now 1 I think, some five or six weeks, Sir, and the unfortunate

part is that, you know, the first or second or third speaker sort of fades into the background and it is very_diffic:ult to keep note of everything that happened. ~ 2359

March 9, 1977 Tape 859 PK - 2 Mr. Murphy: But I would say, and one does not like to single out people, but I would just like to pay a tribute to the gentleman who preceded me the hon. member from Fogo (Capt. Winsor), and as I tell hfm personally, I am always interested in his remarks on Labrador because he knows what he is talking about as far as Labrador is concerned, and particularly, Labrador North. MR. MURPHY: And I would say again that I think the Premier's statement, and this is not how great thou art on my part, I think the Premier's few words, Sir, on last Wednesday were very excellently put.

I do not think there is any .friction or any other thing in this particular thing. I think the hon. member who represents that district has a very, very difficult task to do. And as far as this government is concerned I think we are trying to do the best we can with what we are facing~An~_ what we are facing is not apparent to us all-- and I think everybody sees that there is something inside of all of the peopl~. There is a feeling of something .but to try and put it down on a page or in a word of a speech it is very difficult to do. It is a kind of an intangible thing that we are talking about.

Now my ~ experience with 'Labrador is basically with the Happy Valley-Goose Bay area, Sir. when I was in another job than I am now I was travelling to Ha~py Valley-Goose Bay during the Americ~ occupation there, ~hen the base was being constructed• -AndJto look - and we talk about a few short years --~~-~E.~~-~ happening#_When_~I went into Happy Valley in the early 1950s there was no transp~rt~tion, no public transportation as such ,. Jhere only one hotel at that time where one ~ould stay, Sir, that was the Airlines Hotel. Happy Valley as we know it now, of course, did not exist. MR.

STRACHAN: The Airline Hotel was where Hamm~n c! . JED- es. .· started to write a book ~ the Land God gave to Cain~' 2360

March 9, 1977 Tape 859 PK- 3 MR. MURPHY: Yes. I remember the only place, I was going to say of habitation which is not right because there were a number of shacks and what not down in that particular area, was the Hamilton River Boat Club that was down in that particular area. And I remember walking over an araa of land with Mr.

Ted LaPoint who was personnel officer with the American Forces, and a Mr. - I forget this ch~ps name - and he showed me right where the streets were going to be, this type of thing, there was not a house there at that particular time in that area)as a town, and they _had it planned to be laid out.

But when I was in Labrador Affair~ as I say for a few short months,I do not know how many communications I did receive by the telephone and this was particularly on - --Coastal L-ab"rado·r -.:-And --------- I think when we are talking about Labrador now many factors have ' entered into it, and we talk about Labrador West which is perhaps the most affluent, if you like, area of this Province bar none. I think I can say that.--wicll- the amounts of money being earned in there. It was a tremendous lift for Labrador.

We had Chruchill Falls,the great development, and I recall with a great degree of pleasure the day the· member from Twillingate·(Mr. Smallwood) blew the top of the mountain down there. And unfortuntely the member from Conception Bay South (Mr. Nolan) is not here now, but I recall -· --- ------ - -·- 2361 . ' . ..

March 9, 1977 Tape 860 MR. MURPHY: . · when we did make that visit,we went up and it was suggested by the then Premier that we should walk up the path and have a look at the Falls itself because it might be the last look we would get. So we were just about up there and the sky opened up and everybody was drenched to the skin •'And I remember a helicopter flying over and dropped us some slickers to keep it off,but my"one thought- Well I had a couple of impressions and the first one of course was Mr. -He was the president of CN railway. MR. NOLAN: Donald Gordon. MR.

MURPHY: Donald Gordon,about six foot seven with about a size fourteen shoe on him,and when the member for Conception Bay South and myself were walking up the path we met this gentleman coming down,and every step he took he drove streams of water out of his shoes,and he described his visit to Churchill Falls. r· ' could not say . it here the language he did use,but it was not that ' JM- 1 which you could put in public print. We got a bit of a shock from him at the time.

I have a photograph home when we did get back to get the plane and the hon. member and myself were there and all we had on was a slicker and our shorts actually,because every bit of clothes we had were drenched and we had it on our arm. You know,that is one of the vivid memories and I think our hon. friend from Port au Port was I think one of our guides at that time or you were working there 'Jim'. MR. HODDER: I believe I dispatched the helicopter. MR. MURPHY:·· Was that what it was? Anyway I know - MR..

STRACHAN: I should remind you that Donald Gordon who is certainly : one of the great Canadians was born in a community and brought up in a community only three miles from my community where I was born. MR. MURPHY: Well -! gather from that that all the great men lived within three miles of each other. MR. HICKMAN: His first wife was from Barters Hill. ~ 2362

March 9,1977 Tape 860 -- JM-2 MR. MURPHY: His first wife was from Flower Hill. MR. HICKMAN: No Barter's'Hill. MR. MURPHY: Her mother kept a beer shop. MR. HICKMAN: No, no. MR. MURPHY: That was a fact, is it? Se we get into Labrador and we are bringing them closer home all the time. As I say again,these are some of the memories and when we talk about Churchill Falls and we talk about Happy Valley- Goose Bay and we talk about Labrador City,I do not think we are talking in essence of the true feelings of the Labrador people as- such,and that is -~o~$ta!_ Labrador.

Now there is no great politica~ -~~:1:~ - in the P.C. Party talking about Labrador or giving them any great concessions or anything else,because I always said when an election came around that the Liberals could run a candidate and we could send the Holy Ghost up to run against that Liberal candidate and the Holy Ghost would get third. So as far as political tmput was concerned, and I see the hon. member for Twillingate sort of smile at that, but I think that ise.an actual fact. It was always a great problem. MR.

SMALLWOOD: Would the hon .. minister graciously permit me to ask hfm what he said that he thought I was smtling att I just strolled in,and I was smiling from something that happened in the corridor. MR. MURPHY: I see. It was the matter of the political impact of the P .c-'s -~-.on Coastal Labrador,and I always said when they were running a candidate there that the Liberals could run a man and the P.C~s~ could run the Holy Ghost against him and the Holy Ghost would come third of the two man ~ace. In other words,what chance P.C~~~ had to get on Coastal Labrador was no chance in the world. Why I do not know.

It is a kind of a background there MR.. STRACHAN: We know why. - - -MR. SMALLWOOD: Would the bon. member agree that never .a ___ Tory has ·ever· been elected to the Hause of Assembly from any part of Labrad9r1? Labrador West is a well-known Liberal, well-know Liberal, very ?rominent active Liberal. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order • Tlle hon. member ~. 2363

March 9 , 19 77 Tape 860 JM-3 MR. ROUSSEAU: has many times with all graciousness called me a confirmed Liberal. I have never stood before to reject that. I was not a P.C., I was not a Liberal. MR. SMALLWOOD: Just a Joey man. MR. ROUSSEAU: Nowhere in the files of the Liberal Party could they ever find a card carrying Liberal by the name of Joe Rousseau,nor could the P.C!s,by the way, until five or six years ago. I was a concerned Newfoundlander who decided to get in this,but I was not a Liberal and I would like to dispell any thoughts that the hon. member from Twillingate has in that connection. MR.

MURPHY: Another man has repudiated a very serious charge. I remember at one time, as a matter of fact I think it was one of the first speeches I made in the House back in 1962 or 1963,when the hon. Premier at that time said to me, "A great Liberal speech" and I threatened to sue him for slander at that time but these things happen. We are talking now about a very, very serious problem and that is the problem of the feelings of the people of Labrador. Now I do not want to get political on this because I think we have refrained from it up to this point,but being one __ _ ; · 2364 ..:

March 9, 1977 Tape 861 PK - 1 Mr. Murphy: who sat over there with two other people for a number of years in an opposition, and we saw this, and I do not know what it was, whether it was a bill introduced or not, or what it was,but this great idea someone had of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. We fought it right from the start, and, in my opinion, I I think it was the worst possible thing that could happen to Labrador to make them feel that they were not a part of Newfoundland, and that was the way we argued.

Now the other argument used by the Liberal Party at that time was to make them feel that they were. But I argued at the same time," well all right let us change the whole system, so we will have the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, the Province of Newfoundland and St. John's East Extern, the Province of Newfoundland and St. John's Centre. What was the difference .If they were a part of Newfoundland, ~e-t:=· us make them a part of Newfoundland with all the rights and privileges that went to every citizen of our great Province. MR. STRACHAN: Could I give a suggestion t.o the minister.

Maybe we could call it the - MR.SPEAKER (DR. COLLINS): Order, please! Order,please'. I must point out to the hon. member that it is quite out of order - to interrupt another hon. member • . H~ may !~s~ ~~~ a~k. pe~~ssio~· If. the hon. member then takes his seat he certainly is in order to proceed, but to actually interrupt would be quite out of order. The hon. Minister of Consumer Affairs. MR. MURPHY: I would permit a question if the hon. member wants to ask one. MR.. STRACHAN: You will permit a questionr Thank you for your, ruling, Mr. Speaker. I took it when the minister sat down that he conceded to me.

The statement I was making to the minister was had he ever considered that we should change' the name of the

March 9, 1977 Tape 861 PK - 2 Mr. Strachan: Province to the Province of Labrador and Newfoundland? MR. MURPHY: No,I never considered that, and I never thought we could change the name to Canada either, because I. am a Newfoundlander and very proud of being a Newfoundlander, and I do not think any other name would do it. I notice there are letters in the paper, and this type of thing.

But I am a Newfoundlander and I say this wherever I go, and as a matter of fact on Monday I was in Halifax to a meeting for a few hours and there was a federal minister there and he was chatting about this and that, and I said to the boys there - Prince Edward Island was represented and Nova Scotia and New Brunswick - I said it must be wonderful for you people to be a part of Canada and share in the benefits that ac:c:rue to it.

But I said,here is a minister here who has visited Halifax three times in the past three months and apparently there is a tum-around there like a swinging door that he goes right on bac:k _.And I said it is like the CN , a great advertisement "From Coast to Coast'. a beautiful passenger s~rvice, from Halifax to Vancouver!• You know, what are we? The great member from·Twillingate (Mr. Smallwood) talks about us coming into Confederation, and Uncle Ottawa and this type of thing. I believe myself, Sir, that we have got to reassess our own position now.

And I am not talking about separatism as we hear some people have talked about Labrador, we hear it in Quebec:. An extraordinary thing, it was only the last election, and I do not know if I told the st·ory before, I was canvassing some of my constituents on Cabot Street, and I went to this ' . ~ . •. ---·· particular hou~e,and this 9ld gentleman said, "Ank where are you __.. .......... - -··'" ........ going next? · -Oh I -~id ~~eJ(~_?o~!'~-~~;''You are not going into Mrs. So and So",. h~---s~id, "Sure she is a Confederate". This was in 1975.

So you c:an see that the feeling is still the same,that one identifies with the other, the Confederation and the hen. member from Twillingate, the old Liberal Party. In other words, you wither had to be a 2366

March 9, 1977 Tape 861 PK - 3 Mr. Murphy: Conserative,or you had to be a Liberal, and a Confederate. I think that distinction was drawn back in those days. But as far as Labrador is concerned, and I would just like to correct something now that crept into the press and I had letter or the Premier had a wire from a Mr. Hank Shouse in Happy Valley,who I know, to have me removed because of my great - AN HON. MEMBER: Shouse? MR. MURPHY: Hank '·Shouse,one other great Newfoundlander - to _have _me removed because of the fact that I maae a statement with reference to Labrador. -- ~· FLIGHT;_____ He was a P.C. MR.

MURPHY: And just to put the story in its proper perspective. On~ _ Saturday night at home, and John Baker from CBC phones me, and he said, ''Mr. Murphy, as Minister of Provincial Affairs"_ I said, "John look.,Provincial Affairs went out l~st June, and I am now Minister of Consumer Affairs, but carry one." He said, "I want I to ask you a question on a statement Mr.

Rompkey made about the great swell of dissatisfaction in Labrador and the great feeling for separation." And I said, "John,quite frankly, you know, I said, I had not had any petitions e>r anything to separate." And I said, "As far as our government is concerned", I said, _:s~- i hay~ been_ . associated with the ministry, I think we have leaned over backwards to do what we can,_~d. . I think like the other government did'too. I was not trying to say that the P.C's had done more.

I think we have leaned over backwards to do what we can for Labrador." And the next day in the paper I got such a blasting for being so arrogant and everything else, and all I did was just make that simple statement. I have a copy of the transcript actually from ---- __ ;_ ____ $ __ , _ _ . __ --- -----·-. - - 2367

March 9, 1977 Tape 862 JM- 1 MR. MURPHY: but I do not know how it was translated now in the Labrador station. I was rather amused at another statement and whether this was true or false~but the hon. member for Eagle River said that the nerve of a fellow from St. John's to talk about Labrador. Then I checked • I said, "Where was the bon. ·member born? In Happy Valley, in Nain or in Makkovik. No, I think . " . he was born in Scotland actually. But. I got a bit of a kick out of that where would someone dare from the City of St. John's talk about Labrador. MR. STRACHAN: Would the bon. minister permit a question? MR.

MURPHY: I do not know if that was a fact,but you were qu~ted as saying it. MR. STRACHAN: Oh, I do not intend to argue with that. But the question of birthplace or the birthrights and so on indicates a certain type of patriotism,and a type of patriotism I believe which is only a defense of a bigot or a narrow~inded person. I think the fact is I live in Nain. The fact is I am a Canadian and I think the reference to one's birthplace has very little to do with the job that one has to do. MR. MURPHY: That is the point I was trying to make,because I was ' born in St.

John's I had no right to talk about Labrador which I think was bigotry and all the rest - Separatism in the true sense. Sometimes when I hear people refer~to St. John's you would not know but they were some foreign tribe that were dropped in here by parachute or something. When I get into the Address and Reply perhaps I might tell some people, give them a little information about St. John's,who are not familiar with it, partic~rly some of the younger boys who are still a bit wet behind the ears and coming on,but they will learn anyhow. But, Mr.

Speaker, just to get back again to this. , definit --el--y .. no matter what we say we have a problem to talk about Labrador. But this Select committee, Sir, to me is just, again it 2368

March 9, 1977 Tape 862 MR. MURPHY: is amusing because the hon. member for Burgee­ Bay D'Espoir talks about all the studies were made. I was Minister of Labrador Affairs when the great Snowden Commission JM - 2 was set up. I was right in the middle of the thing basically when all this was going on. I do not know what it cost but it must have cost a fortune, quite frankly. I can think of people,and I say this now,like Mr. Frank Mercer,who was the government's representative in Happy Valley, _ I would say that Frank Mercer basically and in his little skull here knew just as much as going around asking people.

Basically are we deali~g with a million people? Are we dealing with thousands of people or three or four thousand people we are trying to assimilate into MR.. STRACHAN: Forty thousand. MR.. MURPHY: On Coastal Labrador? MR. SIMMONS: In all Labrador. MR. MURPHY: All Labrador, yes. I am just saying the big problem is Coastal Labrador. The economic and social effects, the previous government I think started,or did we build it? Whatever it was, the building in Wabush, the government building there. · I think in Happy Valley, Goose Bay pretty well every department is rep~esent~d in one way or another.

I would love to have a Department of Consumer Affairs in Happy Valley-Goose Bay,but there are other priorities. You listen to petitions for this road' today down in Bay Verte. Should they give me $50,000 to set up an office in Goose Bay to talk about the consumer affairs or should we send it down to Bay Verte or should we send it somewhere else? :· You know, these are problems, I think, that government must face and as far as ' I am concerned .again as Minister of Consumer Affairs,we shoot a man in there every three or four months to listen to people.

In Labrador South there is a committee set up that keeps in constant contact with my department. They monitor prices and this ~ype of stuff. We do 2369 _.

March 9, 1977 Tape 862 JM- 3 MR. MURPHY: what we can for them and anything else that we can do_.~nyi!:C?Dll!e_nt~lly there is this mining thing going on now around Makkovik,and we went out of our way to make sure that the peoples of Labrador were represeated on that, _three or four of them were represented and have an imput into the thing. I think we are doing everything in our power to try to serve the people of Labrador. It is a matter of everybody working together. Now when it was mentioned about~ No,I will not say it. I might say it some other time when I am in a bad mood. I am in a pretty good mood today.

Actually I think it boils down, Mr. Speaker, what do the people of Labrador want? What is the actual question? What do they want? I know when I was Minister of Labrador Affairs, and I look at now the member for Eagle River and I go back to my correspondence, God lielp us Almighty} If there was one representation from Labrador there was fifty - from the bon. gentleman, there is a shortage of oil here, there is something else there 9 and he had me just about off my rocker trying to check with people and see I all this. I think the bon. gentleman was withthe university extension on that. Am I right, at that time?

MR. STRACHAN: No, just before. MR. MURPHY: Just before that. So you know everybody - There are "-·- - .. -- ---- people,and Z3'l0

March 9, _ 1~7? ""Tape 863 IB-1 MR. MURPHY: I think first of all there has got to be a little education in the sense,not the book-learning education,but the education of we are all trying to go the same way. We talk about Labrador. Sure,the isolation and remoteness is a big thing •• And I look at Buchans, say. It is only a few short years ago that we could drive into Buchans. Those of us who travelled the railway can look back when we had to go up and get off at Millertown Junction and perhaps wait two and three and four hours to get a run into Buchans.

Here Buchans was a wa~ up in the hinterland, way off to itself. And- anybody who knows Buchans thirty-five or forty years ago will agree with me the same thing. You know, we have come a long ways in this Province in the twenty-three or twenty-four or twenty-seven years that we are, we have come an awful long ways. We l .ook back ~nd we criticize the previous administration for things. But let us look at the amount of effort that has been put into this in bringing in communications. I look at the hon. member for Exploits (Dr.

Twomey) here,and I think when I was travelling on the road I would go to Norris Arm - Norris Arm was a pretty prosperous place in these days - and I would take a horse and slide _ __:__and go down across the ice down to Botwood in these days. And as I say,it fs a matter of all hands coming together and instead of trying to move in and pry us apart, I think-and I say this quite frankly - that everybody on this side whether he be- well on this side of course we,are all PC's -but everybody in this House,whether they be an Independent or a Liberal or a PC, you know, I think we all want to do it. But what do we want?

What is the answer to it? I do not think a Select Committee is going to do any more good. I think it will be a nice trip for six or seven fellows to go down there. And if I was on that Select Committee I would ask them to go down perhaps in the month of July,because I have tried five times to take that trip from Happy Valley on the boat going North to Nain and each time I got fooled up one way or .another. But I do not think it is going to accomplish anything. But what I would like to see down here is the han. member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan), the hon. memb~r for Menihek (Mr.

Rousseau) and the han. member for Naskaupi (Mr. Goudie) and let us get all this 23 1 71. --

March 9, 1977 · Tape 863 IB-2 MR. MURPHY: information out that has been gathered together. Certainly heavens we can look at that I would like to see a Committee look at it and bring out some of the things that have to happen to it. Labrador is a place of residence now for people. But in the old days it was a place where people went to fish. I know in my own particular school back in St.

Patrick's Hall there were two or three families that fished on the Labrador, and we were always jealous of them because they always left sometime in May,before we got our holidays,to go fishing, to go with their families and they never came back to October or something and they had that extra month. But this was the way we lived. But Labrador has changed now. With the prospects we hope,please God,of gas find and all the rest,Labrador in another fifteen or twenty - who eve~ thought that Labrador West would be what it is today, who would ever have thought that twenty or twenty-five years ago?

So as I say,let us look at what we have gathered together. And on that th ~g _!hf:s is ,' perhaps just a little humourous thing that Reverend Lester Burry talked about on the hon. member's s~ow one day about the invitations when Churchill Falls was officially opened. -- He "" talked about how he had not received an invitation up to ~ certain time.

So he said, "I decided that I would phone my friend Ank Murphy and tell him that he heard that Monseigneur O'Brien .did not get an invitation." And he said, "I am sure he will be very much upset • n And when 'we- discovered that Monseigneur O'Brien who had been associated with Labrador, he would certainly say to me then, '~ell Reverend Burry,did you get one?.. And of c~urse ~ · ·;-he- saic:f, 111 would have to say no." So Mr. Murphy would get one for Monseigneur O'Brien but he could not get one witho .ut getting one for Lester Burry. The whole thing pulled in anyway and he got his invitation.

But, you know, it is just a little association that I did have at the time as Minister of Labrador Affairs. So, gentlemen, there is not much else that I can- add to it only to say how happy I am that the debate has carried on in the manner it has

March 9, 1977 Tape 863 IB-3 MR. MURPHY: and as far as my department is concerned~and I am sure every department of government - and I say this without any feeling of political affiliation - every department of government is bending over backwards to bring to Eagle River and the rest of Labrador anything we can do to help the people, communications and all the rest of ·it. So if there is anything that my department can do I want to assure any of the members feel free . to come. We have visited as often as we can with our people there,and all I say, Mr.

Speaker, in closing is that I hope that something that has been a very contentious and a very sore spot for a great many years can be brought to a head by this House of Assembly in this present year. But I honestly - and it is not that the other group suggested this Select ._ ---- -·- ~ 2373

March 9, 1977 Tape No. 864 NM- 1 MR. MURPHY: ______ Committee,but I am against appointing_ commissions and what not. But I think there are other ways to do it by researching what facts we have and bring it up to date and let us sit down and do the best we can for Labrador. Thank you very much. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear! Hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for St. John's East. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, for a person from St.

John's in the East,' .... - . - particularly representing-a distric~ in the far ~astern_portion of the Island to speak about Labrador,one has to have certai~ feelings of ti~d~ty about it in addressing one's self to the resolution,particularly because of the attitude that appears to be somewhat prevalent in certain areas to the effect that unless you live in Labrador or unless you are born in Labrador or unless you have relatives in Labrador that one should not trespass to speak upon it. But of course that really is not so. Before addressing myself to the main part of my remarks, Mr.

Speaker, in connection with this particular resolution, I would like to say it has gon~~Qi- for a number ...... -- --· - of weeks, perhaps it might be presumptuous to, note it but I think I would like to note how much I did enjoy the very informative speech by the hon. member for Fogo (Captain Winsor) last week, and he went on for forty-five minutes but it was the type of speech that one could listen to pretty well all day long , an a constructive one at that.

I think this resolution is really more or less _j;_on~_!gt!~d tQ_____~_ fait accompli, because the hon. the Premier spoke about it last week and indicated, I thought in a very reasonable way,his attitude towards it was that he felt that there was going to be any good really achieved by it,'that there would be'a select committee,but he cast doubts as to whether the select committee would achieve any real,worthwhile results. And I cannot say really that 2374

March 9, 1977 Tape No. 864 NM - 2 MR. MARSHALL: I quibble with this observation. I think the time has come, with the mammoth Snowden Report we have, and the many other reports that have been done from time to time, instead of studying reports I think the time has come really to do things for Labrador as well as for other parts of the Province which finds themselves in this position. What I want to speak about in this debate at this present time, Mr.

Speaker, is to introduce · a new aspect to it and to talk about the effect on this resolution,and indeed upon Newfoundland in general, of the apparent discussion by three han. members of this House with the Prime Minister of Quebec, Mr. Levesque, when they went to meet with him~ the bon. Leader of the Opposition, the han. member for Eagle River, the han. member for Burgee- Bay d'Espoir (Mr. · Simmons), when they met with Mr.

Levesque and not only apparently, obviously committed what I consider to be one of the gravest errors that has ever been committed by elected representatives of the people of this Province, in apparently discussing with the Premier of Quebec an issue which in Newfoundland is regarded as a non- issue, but which in the Province of Quebec has for many, many years been regarded as a very, very vital and hot issue. The hon. members went ~o Quebec, ~aw Mr.

Levesque,and discussed with him two aspects, number one - resource development in the Province, nothing wronS:with that; but number two -they apparently, as obViously indicated by the conversation on Here And Now a couple of Fridays ago by the han. Leader of the Opposition, discussed with Premier .. Levesque matters pertaining to the border as between Labrador and Quebec and this of course was verified by statements made by the han. member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) in The Daily News to which I will refer to in more detail in a moment. In doing this, Mr.

Speaker, this has previously been unnoticed by the front benches of this government --on this Z375

March 9, 1977 Tape No. 864 MR.. ~.ARSHALL : side,and I think really that the type _ of speech I am making now could well have come from the front benches,but if it is not going to come from the front benches it sur ley .is coming from the backbenchers. It has previously gone unheeded really except,! understand,within the Liberal caucus itself. I understand the people in the Liberal caucus took issue with the situation,and also it was referred to indirectly~ not specifically by _Way_!~~e;-_~f ·The Daily News, ~ 2376 NM- 3

March 9, 1977 Tape 865 IB-1 MR.. MARSHALL: Mr. Albert Perlin,who remains the leading perceptive journalist in this Province when he said, "I suppose that the most surprising thing about the meeting between Ed Roberts and his two colleagues and the Premier, Rene Levesque, is that it took place at all." Surprising, Mr.

Speaker, indeed; more than surprising, perhaps the biggest error in my view that any elected representative in Newfoundland has ever . made-~-Wh~~this error is committed by a person who ·occupies the office of Leader of the Opposition,and presumably the alternate Premier of this Province, it takes on a much more serious situation. The bon. Leader of the Oppos,ition on Friday on Here And Now.z.. two Fridays ago,indicated that there had been discussion about resources.

He indicated that there were discussions on the Quebec boundary. ~ ...,. ... ~-· _: __ __ -· - -~--· ·- - - ·-- -- - .. - --He said that it was a non-issue 'and -tended to play it down. But he - -· ~- - - certainly did indicate that the matter was talked abou~. He referred to the fact that Mr. Levesque had said that be might refer the issue to The Hague or some international court. Prior to that in The Daily News ; in the Labrador edition of February 25, 1977 there was repo:rt of the the ~~~o~t -of this meeting from· the bon. member for Eag~- ~ Rj_ver (Mr. Strachan).

This account itself is startling, and since the bon. member has not risen to contradict the contents I presume it is correct and I propose to read this report.

I have it here to table, M:r.- --- - Speaker, from The Daily News • It is entitled,"Boundary Will Not Be -Changed, Strachan assured that Labrador boundary will not be changed." It reads - ~s 'f'oll,)ws,and I quote, "At least one Labrador MilA is reassured that the Labrador boundary will remain as it is despite the statements by Quebec Prtme Minister _ Rene Levesque since his election last Fall that Labrador should have been part of Quebec and that he plans to dispute the boundary in the international courts should Quebec decide to separate." Notice the consistency between that and what the hon.

Leader of the Opposition said on television. "The Eagle River MHA, Ian Strachan, discussed the matter with Mr. Levesque Monday when a Liberal delegation went to Montreal. Mr. Strachan ,

March 9, 1977 Tape 865 IB-2 MR. MARSHALL: says he came away from the meeting feeling reassured that Mr. Levesque understood and accepted his point of view. 'Quebec has bullied us long enough territorially and in regards to resources/ Mr. Strachan said.The tf.JI!_e _:_ h~~ ~ ~~~ - _:= _-_H_~e-!~~j=-~ ___ is_=-I_:!~h~ __ _ !_ .:.. for Mr. Levesque to change his attitude or they will get nothing but conflict from this Province." Nothing wrong with that. I say, "Hear, - hear!" as well, Mr. Speaker. But we will come to what I do not say, "Hear, hear!n about in a few moments. ''Mr. Strachan said he reminded Mr.

Levesque that he is able to sit in his Montreal offices and read because of power coming from Labrador, and ~e joking~y suggested that switches could easily be flicked off if the bullying continued." Hear, hear again: 11t' • Strachan said fMr. Levesque has two reactions to the boundary dispute. One is a gut reaction that Mr. Levesque has always felt Quebec was done out of Labrador,but he also has pragmatic political feelings which tell him -- -- ·- . , that ~he_~hances of Quebec ever making gains in Labrador are very, very slim. And he says it is not really a priority anyway, Mr. Strachan says~" AN RON.

MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: o ,noi"Hear, hear!" to discuss an issue that was laid to :.__.... _____ .. --.. ~--- - rest in 1927 •. N~~~~ei!~_,JJ,e~-~~~~t_Q· el.ected representatives discussing this with the Prime Minister of Quebec. "Mr. Strachan suggested that Mr. Levesque should strongly consider making public statements to reassure especially Labradorians ~nd Newfoundlanders that _Quebec makes no claim on thei~ Province." AN RON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR.. MARSIIALL : ''Hear, hear!"? Where, where! Mr.

Speaker, :Lmagitie-- - an elected representative of this Province going and suggesting to_the Premier of ·Quebec that he make public statements·uto reassure -~especially / ' Labradorians and Newfoundlanders that Quebec makes no claim on their : .. ~ Prov -ince -." "The Eagle River MHA~_ (Mr. Strachan) said Mr. Levesque is ·.::· . very sincere, a no~nonsense type of person and seems to have accepted my- ~ points well." MR.~ ROBERTS: Hear, hear! MR.. MARSHALL: Now, Mr. Speaker, I cannot i.Diagine; certainly ' ..

March 9, 1977 Tape no. 866 Page 1 - ms Mr • Marshall. I know it would be through inadvertence, naviety or what have you_ I cannot imagine any greater ~~~serv~ce done to the people of this Province by any elected representatives thaD going up to Q~e~-~~ ~'!._ discussing with the Premier of Quebec, be he Rene Levesque, be he Robert Bourassa, Jean Lesage, Daniel Johnson or any of his predecessors, an - is~ue~hich is not an issue in this Province. Now let me make it quite plain that in - MR. WHITE: Tell your colleagues that, that this land is our land. MR. MARSHALL: :.. in 1927 - AN HON. MEMBER: MR.

DOODY: Hear, hear! MR. WHITE: Who started the issue? MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I believe I have the floor. You know, I will yield to questions, but I will not yield to people, you know, shouting ac;oss there. If he wants to ask a question the hon. member can. I will yield to him, but I do not expect to be shouted at. Now the situation here is,. Mr. Speaker, that this issue was laid to rest in 1927 when a decision was made by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council,which everybody knows. Newfoundland at that time - MR. NEARY: That is what the member for Eagle River (Mr. Strachan) told us. MR.

MARSHALL: Yes. we will just get back to this in a moment now, but the member for Ragle River and ·the Leader of the Opposition ought not to ?e discussing this at all. If the matter is settled,as· it is settled, as it was settled in 1927, there is certainly no need to ask the Premier of the Province of Quebec to reassure Newfoundland as to ' ~ J.ts territorial .boundaries.

Now this was decided in 1927. ·It was decided in the Terms of Union with Canda~ Term 2 of the Terms of Union with Canada clearly states that the territory in Newfoundland, "the Province of Newfoundland,shall consist of the ~sland of Newfoundland and that part of the mainland of Labrador which has been set forth in 2379

March 9, 1977 Tape no. 866 Page 2 - mw Mr. Marshall. the decision that was rendered in March 1927 by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council~' It has farther been settled by the fact of the delivery of Churchill Falls power from Newfoundland to the Province of Quebec. It has farther been practically accepted by many other instances, no need to go into here. But there ··is a danger, Mr. Speaker, I suggest to you,of even discussing this particular issue, particularly with the Province of Quebec. We have always held here that there is no issue, ~na ·- I think that is quite plain • .

The Liberal senator , Senator Eric Cook in his senate speechm February 2, 1977, which was acclaimed in the press, the mainland press and here_ ~dwhich hon. members may well read - it is a very instructional one on the rights vis-a-vis Quebec and Labrador in the event of Quebec -becoming a separate entity in our rights to the --- - - - - - power.

But he did touch on the matter of the 1927 case and the rights of Newfoundland to Labrador and also the Terms of Union with • 4" f ~anada, and he sa10 _ the foregoing ~acts, and in light of these acts, ·-- " ~t~_i s- - i ~!!_SPOnsible r ortliepres ent Prime Minister of Quebec to delude his followers by stating that he will submit the Labrador question to the Court of International Justice. First and foremost there is no Labrador question to submit to anyone." Now that is the position I think that should be taken.

The disgrace for Rene Levesque to go and talk about the Labrador bounda!Y with his people, I·suggest. it is the height of stupidity and naviety on the part of elected representatives of this Province to go to Quebec and talk about it with a Prime Minister of Quebec. SOME HON. MEMBERS; Hear, hear