Manitoba Hansard — 7 May 2002 (Sitting 27, 37th Legislature, 3rd Session)

37-3-27

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session- Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LII No. 27- 1:30 p.m., Tuesday , May 7, 2002

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLJ, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HA WRANIK, Gerald HELWER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATH LIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEV AKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosano, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vit al Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charles wood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Lac du Bonnet Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La V erendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Ross mere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Rob lin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D:P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

1113 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 7, 2002 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMIT TEES Standing Committee on Public Accounts First Report Mr. Edward Helwer (Chairperson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the First Report of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Your Standing Committee on Public Accounts presents the following as its First Report. Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

Meetings: Your committee met on Monday, May 6 at 10 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building. Matters Under Consideration: Rules and procedures pertaining to the func tioning of the Public Accounts Committee. Committee Membership: Substitutions received prior to commencement of meeting: Mr. Laurendeau for Mr. Faurschou Mr. Penner (Steinbach) for a vacancy Hon. Mr. Mackintosh for Hon. Mr. Sale Motions: Your Committee agreed to the following motion: That these recommendations on proposed terms of reference, we recommend referral to the Rules Committee of this House. Officials Speaking on Record: Mr.

Jon Singleton, Auditor General of Manitoba Mr. Helwer: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Arthur-Virden (Mr. Maguire), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, I am privileged and honoured to table the final report of the Commi ssion on Class Size and Composition. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS * (13:35) Camp erville Water Treatment Plant Hon. Eric Robinson (Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement for the House.

I would hke to report to the House on a very serious incident that occurred on Sunday night. The 623 people of Camperville are without a water treatment plant at this time due to a fire on Sunday, May 5, 2002. Smoke was noticed at the Camperville community water treatment plant at about 3:45 p.m. on May 5, 2002, by a local resident who contacted the local fire department. The fire department responded, as did the Duck Bay fire department which was called in to assist.

The Department of Aboriginal and Northem Affairs technical consultant Wayne Preston, along with Hessel Dethmers, protective services consultant, arrived in Camperville at around 6:30 p.m. and met with the firefighters, the RCMP and the community council. The Office of the Fire Commissioner is investigating the fire. The building was partially gutted by fire. The electrical and plumbing systems have been destroyed. A rough estimate of damage would be in excess of $200,000.

1114 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 2002 The conmmnity council enlisted the local housing authority on Sunday evening to advise the community residents of precautions to be taken for hot water tank shut off and where potable water could be obtained in the com munity. A water truck with a I 000 gallon tank was obtained from the community of Spence Lake as well as two 250 gallon tanks from local residents, Sunday evening, May 5, by the conmmnity council to provide water for the residen ts.

The potable water supply for the community is being obtained from the Duck Bay community water treatment plant 19 kilometres away. Council has set up a location for the pickup of potable water in Camperville for the residen ts. Water is being delivered to seniors and residents without transpor tation. A plumbing and electrical contractor has been sent out by the department to Camperville to assess what is required to establish a raw water supply for the community. It is anticipated that the time frame to purchase and set up a treatment process may take up to two months.

The water line in the community of Camperville is presently back on line, however the water is untreated and therefore may be used only for cleaning, washing dishes, bathing and flushing of toilet facilities. A written notice has been delivered to all homes in the community, inclu ding businesses, indic&ting that the water coming out of the tap is untreated and is not to be used for drinking. The Department of Conservation provided assistance in wording the notices that went to each home and businesses in the community. Piped raw water was provided on line in Camperville on Monday night at approximately 11 p.m.

Camperville school resumed classes this morning, May 7. Announcements by the school division on the local radio station requested students to bring their own drinking water. The potable water supply for the community is being obtained from Duck Bay and their community water treatment plant, which is 19 kilometres away. The Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs, Dauphin office, continues to support and assist the community of Camperville with the restoration of the potable water supply for the community. Mr.

Speaker, I want to thank the other departments of the provincial government, the local community counc il, the Duck Bay community council, the Duck Bay school divi sion, our departmental staff and everyone else involved for their prompt work and efforts in this matter, which of course has been very difficult for all residents. Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): I want to thank the member for providing us with this update and the most current inf ormation avail able.

It is at times like this that communities realize just how vulnerable they can be if anything happens to interrupt or to contaminate their drinking water or their household water in any way. I would simply say that I join the minister in expressing appreciation to the departments in supporting the communities.

One of the most important aspects of a situation such as this is that, first of all, we make every effort to restore potable water, but even more important is that we make sure there is adequate inf orn1ation available to all the citizens, which the minister is indicating he is working on, to make sure that no one does become sick during the period of time that they may be without potable water. I want to encourage him to continue his work. * (13 :40) Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I ask leave to speak to the member's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourab le member have leave? [Agreed] Mr. Gerrard : Mr.

Speaker, I would just say very briefly that this is clearly a very important issue, particularly to residents of the important community of Camperville. A thank you goes out to those who have been working hard to try and make sure that there is adequate and drinkable water. I think this sort of effort is very important to make, and the guarantee of good water for people throughout Manitoba continues to be an important issue. Nat ional Forest Week Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conser vation): Mr. Speaker, I have a statement for the House.

May 7, 2002 LEGlSLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1115 I would like to take the opportunity to announce that May 5 to 11 is National Forest Week. Canada has celebrated National Forest Week since the 1920s. In Manitoba, the Mani toba Forestry Association has marked this annual occasion by providing white spruce seedlings to my honourable colleagues. These seedlings serve as a reminder of the importance of our forests. The Manitoba For estry Association is a leader in promoting the importance of trees and forests.

At the end of this month, MFA will co-host its annual Envirothon competition with the state of North Dakota. This Olympic-style competition on the environment will be held at the Inter national Peace Gardens from May 30 to June 1, 2002. In June, the Manitoba Forestry Association is conducting a two-week tour of northern and remote communities to promote the importance of trees and forests. The MFA will also include a fire prevention message as part of the tour, which is expected to reach some 3500 residen ts.

I commend the MFA for their ongoing efforts to celebrate and create awareness of our valuable forest resources. Sustaining Manitoba's forests is a priority of Manitoba Conservation. In March 2000, we released a publication Next Steps: Priorities for Sustaining Manitoba's Forests.

The document builds on past policy work, outlines our goals for the future and demonstrates the Province's commitment to increasing scientific and tradi tional knowledge of Manitoba's forests, enhanc ing forest stewardship, increasing employment and economic opportunities for Aboriginal communities , promoting a sustainable forest economy and updating and improving legislation and guidelines. Mr. Speaker, it is appropriate to make a note of all these important goals and priorities as we celebrate National Forest Week.

On behalf of the people of Manitoba, I thank the Manitoba Forestry Association for their white spruce seedlings and for its continued efforts to promote sustainable and wise use of our forests. We look forward to working with all those interested in sustaining our forests for the future. * (13:45) Mr. Harry Enns (Lak�side): Mr. Speaker, I do thank the honourable minister for this statement, which has become a pleasant annual occasion as we acknowledge the importance of forestry in Manitoba.

I particularly want to also extend my appreciation to the Manitoba Forestry Associ ation, one of the province 's oldest NGOs that is involved in assisting government, in this case the Department of Conservat ion, in the importance of forestry and forestry education throughout our school system. It is appropriate that we are just currently dealing with the honourable minister's Estimates.

I will be able to examine as to whether or not the progressive policies regarding forestry that I was privileged to introduce, including the white spruce tree-although I notice somehow some rust got on it in the last little while-such progressive policies that we take for granted, like the fact that two trees should be planted for every tree that is cut down in Manitoba, the fact that our major commercial users should contribute directly to forest fire protection as part of their access, part of their stumpage to our forestry resour ces. Mr. Speaker, on the whole, our forestry resources are well.

They need to be nurtured and I am satisfied that we are on the right path. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I ask leave to speak on the minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [Agreed} Mr. Gerrard : Mr. Speaker, two brief points. recognize both the comments from the minister and the Opposition critic, but it would seem to me that the role of government should be to assist those who work in the forestry area, in the forestry industry, not the reverse. I am sure the member who is the critic for the Opposition would agree, on consideration.

Second, I think it is important that we mention the softwood lumber dispute and the concerns that it raises with regard to the forestry industry in Manitoba, and hope that this, in some

1116 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA May 7, 2002 fashion, can be resolved to the aid of our indus try and our province. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 17-The Cooperatives Amendment Act Hon. Scott Smith (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Family Services and Housing (Mr. Sale), that leave be given to introduce Bill 17, The Cooperatives Amendment Act, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motio11 prese11ted. Mr.

Smith: We are proposing amendments to resolve issues that have arisen in the adminis tration of the act since it was proclaimed on July 1, 1999, including access to records and to clarify filing requirements and simplifying wording. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honour able members to the public gallery where we have from Seven Oaks Middle School 27 Grades 6 to 8 students under the direction of Mr. Paul Bennett. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Attorney General (Mr. Mackintosh).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Budget Manitoba Hydro Profits Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, on April 22, without consulting Man itoba Hydro, the Minister of Finance inf ormed the people of Mani toba that he was going to strip $288 million from Hydro. Since 1999, Manit oba Hydro has earned $622 million.

However, in the same period they have had to borrow, and their debt has risen by $583 million to almost $6.3 billion. * (13:50) I would like to ask the Minister of Finance if he can inf orn1 Manit obans how much more debt will have to be incurred by Mani toba Hydro in order to fund his scheme to draw funds from Hydro to pay for his operating deficits. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, the member opposite neglects to mention one of the reasons for the increase in that debt and that was of course the purchase of Centra Gas, a prescient decision to take public a private corporation made by the former government. The Hydro transf er to the Government of Manitoba will be funded out of the extraordinary profits made by Manitoba Hydro due to stronger than expected export sales into the American marketplace. Manitoba Hydro Rate Increase Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, the numbers speak for themselves.

Manitoba Hydro spends more money than it earns, that is prior to this Government dipping into their pockets. I would like to ask the Minister of Finance if he will guarantee to Mani tobans that electricity rates will not increase as long as his Government is not dipping into Manit oba Hydro to fund their deficits. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, the member has asked whether or not there will be an increase in Mani toba Hydro rates during the period of time, the three years we projected to take a transf er from Manitoba Hydro, and the answer is: We do not anticipate any great increases. Mr.

Loewen: Mr. Speaker, this Government is taking us back to the 1880s when- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I am wondering if you could assist the House in ensuring that the honourable member does not have

preambles to his supplementary questions. I think it is becom ing a habit with the honourab le member.

May 7, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1117 Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Oppo sition House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Ofticial Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, the honourable member had just risen to his feet. I do not believe there were more than two words from the member. Unless the Attomey General can now see in the future, I do not know how you could rule against this. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Govemment House Leader, I would like to take this opportunity to remind all honourable members that Beauchesne Citation 409(2) advises that a suppl ementary question should not require a

preamble. * * * Mr. Loewen: Mr. Speaker, the question is simple. Will the mini ster guarantee to the people of Manitoba that Hydro will not be raising its electrical rates for the next three years? Will he please answer that? Mr. Selinger: I gave the member an answer in my last question, but I think we should just look back on the past year and see what happened. In the global economy we had a slowdown. We had September 11 which nobody could foretell.

I mean, in effect, the minister is asking me to project the future and all the events that will occur in the future. 1 have said very clearly we do not anticip ate any rate increases, but who knows what is going to happen out there? It is a bit of an unpredictable world. An Honourable Member: So the answer was no. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mental Health Care Facilities Sexual Assaults Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): We have leamed today that there have been two sexual assaults in the last I 0 days at a psychiatric ward at St. Bonif ace General Hospital.

I would like to ask the Mini ster of Health if he can tell us if there have been other patients that have been sexually assaulted in psych wards in the last few years in Man itoba. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): It was reported today that there were two sexual assaults of mental health in-patients at St. Bonif ace General Hospital. One of these inci dents has led to a sexual assault charge against the male perpetrator. Mrs.

Driedger: I would like to ask the Minister of Health what steps he is taking right now to ensure that all psychiatric patients are protected from sexual assault, if he is consider ing segre gated units, and if, indeed, there might have been other patients over the last few years that have been sexually assau lted. * (13:55) Mr. Chomiak: I will attempt to deal with the three questions that the member raised in her supplementary question. I can advise that an intemal review at St. Bonif ace Hospital is already underway. I can advise that St.

Bonif ace Hospital has requested a review by an inde pendent third party from WRHA with respect to the incident. I can also report that the Protection of Persons in Care Office is investigating as well. Finally, Mr. Speaker, there is a criminal investigation in this regard. Mrs. Driedger: I would like to ask my question again. Can the minister tell us what steps he is taking himself to see that patients can feel safe on psychiatric wards and if there is any consid eration on his part to look at the issue of segregated units? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated, St.

Bonif ace Hospital is undertaking an intemal investigation. Secondly, they have asked for an extemal third-party review of that by the WHRA. Thirdly, the Protection of Persons in Care Office, an office established by this Govemment to investigate matters of this kind, is undertaking an investigation. Fourthly, a criminal investigation in regard to this issue is present ly ongoing. Fish Habitat Enhancement Groups Consultations Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, in this province, the fish enhancement conunu nity groups have annually brought pretty well

11 18 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 2002 $100,000 to the table to support stocking of Jakes and to support fish habitat enhancement because of the love of the sport and because they care about our resources. This Minister of Conservation has frozen these groups out of discussio ns on planning and management around some of the best sport fishing Jakes in this province. Will he change his mind? Hon.

Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conser vation): I think I indicated to the member already during yesterday's Question Period that we already have a process such as the one that he is suggesting for the Lake of the Prairies area. We are also currently setting up a similar process for Lake Dauphin. Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, yesterday this minister referenced that he was already in the process of inviting people from Lake Dauphin to the table. Can he can confirn1 when he made that invit ation? Mr. Lathlin: I can advise the member that about two or three months ago I was in Dauphin. I had a lunch meeting with Mr.

Ault and two of his executive members of the fish enhancement group in Dauphin. It was at that time that I indicated to Mr. Ault we would look for a way to include his group in with the West Region Tribal Council so that, although they would not be making any decisions with respect to treaty rights but certainly they would be included in the process for the purpose of getting inf orn1ation and knowing what is developing with respect to the development of the comanagement agreement that we have been working on with West Region Tribal Council. Mr.

Cummings: I heard somebody from the back benches of Government say: Good answer. That is not a good answer, Mr. Speaker. He has given them a non-participation role. Will he listen to their advice? Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you please remind the member of Beauchesne Citation 409: A question must be brief. A supplementary ques tion should need no

preamble, or else separate these two members over here? Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Ste. Rose, on the same point of order. Mr. Cummings: I was simply trying to get an answer from this minister whether or not he will give them meaningful participation. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, I would like once again just to advise the House that Beauchesne Citation 409(2) advises that a supplementary question does not requir e a

preamble. * * * Mr. Speaker: The question had been put. The honourable minis ter has a response? Mr. Lathlin: I have been working with the groups in the Lake Dauphin area. I have met with the sports fishermen groups; I have met with the West Region Tribal Council; I have met with the chiefs. Of course, our people in Dauphin, the Conservation office there in Dauphin, meetings have been held. In fact, every meeting that I have been at I have suggested to the groups, not only to West Region Tribal Council but also to Mr.

Ault and his group-I even suggested the same thing to the Lake of the Prairies representatives-that it is time that people started working together. * (14:00) I have suggested over and over again that all the groups get together with a view to finding a common solution. In fact, I would like to table a letter here that was written to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray) back on February 14 from the West Region Tribal Council asking him for a meeting so that the West Region Tribal Council could apprise the member of what had been achieved to that date. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Ste.

Rose, on a new question? Mr. Cummings: Yes, Mr. Speaker, on a new question. My question is to the Premier (Mr. Doer). The Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk) in

May 7, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1119 Swan River was asked if the Swan River fish enhancement association could have meaningful input into the management of fish stocks, partic ularly in the sporting lakes in this province, and she said it will not happen. I ask the Premier: Is he prepared to step in and make it happen? Mr. Lathlin: Yesterday I indicated to the member that, unlike what they were doing when they were in govemment, we have decided to work with all the groups from the Dauphin area with respect to the fishing issue.

In fact, we imposed a closure on fishing in that area and we did not have to force anybody to agree to a closure. We got agreement from the West Region Tribal Council. The tribal council is in support of that closure and so far people have been charged for breaching the closure regula tions, so we have taken action. Mr. Cummings: As I indicated, these groups raise in total across the province about $100,000 in funds for fish.

I would like the minister to answer the question: Does he expect this money to be now spent in support of fish, or is it going to be spent fighting his foolish organization approach to this problem? Mr. Lathlin: I am not sure if I heard the member correctly, but if he is referring to the work that has been done by the west region and the sports fisherman's group and Conservation as foolish, then I am disappointed in the member's attitude, Mr. Speaker, because I have indicated to the members across the way previously that this is in fact what happens when you exclude some people from the process.

Our attitude is that we include everybody and that is what we have been trying to do in discussing the fishing issues at Lake Dauphin. Mr. Cummings: Swan Valley Fish Enhance ment association, Parkland groups, Thompson, Flin Flon, Wanless, Cranberry Portage, The Pas, Snow Lake, Fish Futures, they are all fighting this minister. Why will he not include them in the discussions? Mr. Lathlin: Of course, I disagree with the member's statement that everybody is fighting. The department in this instance, Mr.

Speaker-in fact, just prior to meeting with Lake of the Prairies some coup!� of months ago, six weeks maybe, I had a meeting with the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach) and he gave me his assurance that he would try everything in his power, on his part, to ensure there is common work done to find common solutions. He suggested to me he was not even part of the M.P. for Dauphin who has been going around trying to inflame people into taking actions that are outside of the law. So I welcome the time that I met with the Member for Russell. I was encour aged and I welcomed his assistance in this matter.

Clearwater Lake Provincial Park Land Transfer Mr. ·Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Conservation. The minister, on April 26 during Question Period, stated that he is following the process in the Treaty Land Entitlement Framework Agreement to transfer over 950 hectares of Crown land, Clearwater Lake Provincial Park, to the OCN Aboriginal land claim.

The Treaty Land Entitlement Agreement outlines a process with respect to provincial park land which provides only for co-management of land in a provincial park between the Province and an Aboriginal community, not the transfer or sale of provincial park land to an Aboriginal community. Does the minister understand that by transferring the land to the First Nations community he is not following the process in the Treaty Land Entitlement Framework Agreement and that he is breaching the spirit and the intent of that agreement? Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conser vation): Mr.

Speaker, I can assure the member across the way that, in fact, I have a good understanding of the process that his govemment had established when they were in power. In 1997, a framework agreement was signed off by Cabinet, and that framework agreement set out the parameters for negotiation. At that time the member's party when they were in govemment should have realized then where that process was going. If they were

1120 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 2002 having such problems at that time, well, perhaps they should have said something at that time, but instead they passed the Order-in-Council and the framework agreement was approved. Mr. Hawranik: Supplementary question. Mr. Speaker, if the process in the Treaty Land Entitlement Framework Agreement was follow ed, would the minister admit that the process only provides for co-management of certain lands in a provincial park on the basis of heritage, culture and tradition, not the transfer of provincial park land for Aboriginal land claims? Mr. Lathlin: Mr.

Speaker, I want to advise the member across the way, and I suggest that he listen very carefully because so far I have indicated to the House here that the process they had established in 1997, that is the process I am following right now. That process was just completed at the end of March. I indicated to the Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) earlier here that around the middle of May, end of May, I will be getting a report, and at that time I will make a decision as to whether more time will be allowed for public meetings and so on.

I want to close by telling the member that, contrary to what he is suggesting in his question, Mr. Speaker, no land has been transferred. Mr. Hawranik: Supplementary question. Mr. Speaker, will the minister admit to this House that he is not following the process outlined in the Treaty Land Entitlement Frame work Agreement? He is doing an end around that agreement by first converting that provincial park land to Crown land, and then he is trans ferring it to the First Nations conununity. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Lathl in: Mr.

Speaker, when we took government two and a half years ago there were initiatives that had been started by the previous government. Most of them we followed through with when we came into Government and some we did not. In this case, this process that had been established by the previous government, that is the process I have been following. I do not know any other way that I can put it. * (14:10) I am following the process. I am sure his colleagues across the way, those who were members of the former government remember when they were sitting around the Cabinet table signing off the Order-in-Council.

Mental Health Care Adolescent Treatment Programs Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, this is Mental Health Week. As the Minister of Health knows, I have been a strong advocate for improved mental health services. I would like to compliment the minister for his positive announcements this morning, but at the same time I today wear a red flag to remind the minister that Manitoba is lagging far behind other provinces in the development of treatment services for young people in the early stages of psychosis. I ask the minister: When will there be a dedicated early psychosis service in Manitoba? Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, amongst the myriad of very difficult mental health problems that Manitobans face, and amongst all of the issues that we are trying to address in that regard, including the issue of stigma, including the issue of com munity, including the issue of education, is the very serious issue of first-episode psychotic children and early identification and early intervention. We have had meetings with that organization and group, and we continue to work in that regard. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, I hope that can progress quickly. Regional Inequities Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): My supplementary again to the Minister of Health: When will the minister address the huge regional inequities that exist in some programs, for example, the Proctor Program which is for the equivalent of home care services for the mentally ill. I give as examples specifically the fact that there is very little in the way of funding and support for this program in the South

May 7, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1121 Eastman region compared to other regions of the province. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): 1 had the honour this moming of announcing a three-quarters of a million dollar program, probably the largest community-based program that ever was announced in tem1s of community based mental health. Some of that goes to early identification and intervention in the form of a program to train 120 medical practitioners, Mr. Speaker, to diag nose and provide services to individuals who might be experiencing mental health problems.

Part of that program is resources to self-help groups around the province to better provide their services. Part of that goes in tem1s of a housing support program for the benefit of the whole province in conjunction with the Cana dian Mental Health Association to help mental health people across the system. Part of those resources, as well, go to the Medical Resource Education Centre that is a clearing house for all infom1ation regarding mental health across the province. None of those programs were in place a mere two years ago. Gambling Addiction Statistics Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, my supplementary on mental health. I ask the Minister responsible for the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation (Ms. McGifford) whether the minister can tell us the extent to which mental health problems, including addictions to gaming, are occurring in this province as a result of the casinos for which she is responsible, and whether the incidence has been increasing or decreasing under the term of this Govemment. Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I thank the member for that question because that also concems another matter of another program that we announced today for the first time, a co-assessment program that works at addictions and mental health, side by side; a province-wide training program for across the entire province, the first of its kind in Manitoba, never here before; a recognition that addictions and mental health, co-management of both of those, the first time in the province in Manitoba. I thank the member for that question. Clearwater Lake Provincial Park Land Transfer Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr.

Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Conservation. By virtue of your Govemment's action with respect to Clearwater Lake Provincial Park, in allowing a transfer of 950 hectares of that park to satisfy an Aboriginal land claim, is it your Govemment's position that further existing provincial park land be allowed to be sold or transferred to private interests and to be subject to other Aboriginal land claims, or should provincial parks be held strictly for use by the general public? Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conser vation): Mr.

Speaker, I want to repeat the response that I gave to the member earlier, and that is no land has been transferred from this particular process. I repeat no land has been transferred. Mr. Hawranik: My supplementary: Would the minister agree that this precedent of land transferring currently in Clearwater Lake Provincial Park for an Aboriginal land claim puts part or even all of the land in the Whiteshell Provincial Park and the Birds Hill Provincial Park in danger of being converted to Crown land or to be sold or transferred to private interests or to satisfy further Aboriginal land claims? Mr. Lathlin : Mr.

Speaker, let me answer the member's question this way, and that is to advise him to study the file maybe a little bit more thoroughly than he obviously has. I can indicate to the member that the Clearwater Lake Provincial Park was established in 1963. In 1973 there was an Order-in-Council transferring 25 acres of Clearwater Lake Park to the Stony Point Reserve, which belongs to OCN. So for the member to say that I am about to set a precedent here, he is totally wrong, because there has already been a land transfer in 1973. In

11 22 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 2002 1973 there was an Order-in-Council transferring Clearwater Lake Park to Stony Point Reserve. His assertion that I am setting a precedent is totally wrong. Provincial Pa rks Land Transfers Mr. Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): A second supplementary: Is the minister prepared to state clearly and emphatically in this House for the benefit of the Whiteshell Cottagers Association that both land in the Whiteshell Provincial Park and Birds Hill Provincial Park will not be converted to Crown land to be subject to another Aboriginal land claim? Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the members opposite should know that under our Government and under this Minister of Conser vation the ownership of private land has been transferred to public ownership in a provincial park in the Pembina Valley system under his leadership, the first time. The members opposite should also know that we have set aside seven specific reserve areas as a precondition for more set-aside for more provincial parks in Manitoba. The member should also know, Mr.

Speaker, that rather than taking the stamp that was placed by members opposite on the east side to expand massively the cut area into the boreal forest, this minister was able to detern1ine that the existing cut area actually had more fiber as a precondition to making decisions in the areas adjacent to the Whiteshell parks. This minister is setting aside land for public use in provincial parks, and the member opposite knows that. Morris-Macdonald School Division Representation-Minist er's Comments Mr.

Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Residents and ratepayers in Morris-Macdonald School Division have repeatedly asked to have an election of school board members since the minister fired the board in November of last year. To that end, in late April the minister said, and I quote: I am interested in facilitating some of their concerns around representation. * (1 4: 20) Will the minister confirm, first of all, that he made the statement and indicate what he has done to facilitate these concerns? Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the Member for Minnedosa's question. Of course the issue in the Morris-Macdonald School Division is an issue of considerable concern to taxpayers throughout the province. The Provin cial Auditor identified that between $2.5 million and $4 million of taxpayers' dollars were mis managed in that division. We on this side of the House, of course, are concerned about every taxpayer in the province of Manitoba and accountability for tax dollars that left this building. I will say-[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Caldwell: I will say that I have had numerous meetings with elected officials in the Morris-Macdonald area, reeves, councillors, mayors-[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Caldwell: As I said, I have had numerous meetings with elected officials in the area, as well as citizens who have expressed concerns. That will continue. Mr. Gilleshammer: My question is quite clear, and I would like the minister to answer it. He stated: I am interested in facilitating some of their concerns around representation. What are you going to do about the comment that you made? Are you going to follow through on that? Mr.

Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, our Government's record on following through on education issues is unparalleled. {interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Caldwell: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Doer government is an education government. We believe in promoting educational excellence in this province, in working with all stakeholders

May 7, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 23 in a collegial manner, in a collaborative manner to enhance student outcomes. We also believe in investing in the public school system, something that was sorely lacking through the '90s, when members opposite were in office. So, Mr. Speaker, my door remains open to anybody concerned with educational excellence in this province. Mr. Gilleshammer: Does the minister deny making that comment that you were interested in facilitating some of their concerns around repre sentation? Did you make that statement? Are you going to follow through with it? Mr.

Caldwell: We have been interested in facilitating educational excellence in this prov ince since September of 1999. Indeed, we have been investing in public education at historic levels. We have been undertaking initiatives that have been on the back burner in this province for decades. We will continue to facilitate opportunities to enhance educational excellence in this prov ince each and every day. Adult Learning Centres Enrolment Figures-Prosecution Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): The non answers of this minister are just incredible.

The ratepayers of Morris-Macdonald School Divi sion have incurred a very cruel and harsh punishment for mistakes that were not made by the ratepayers, were not made by the ordinary taxpayers of that province, and the benefits of which flowed to individuals that are friends of the NDP party. I want to ask the Minister of Education why he is ref using to take action against those individuals and adult learning providers who actually benefited from the money that was transferred thr ough Morris-Macdonald School Division but providing false enrolment figures. Hon.

Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education, Training and Youth): Mr. Speaker, there are a number of questions that were asked. Of course, the RCMP are investigating this issue after this Government brought in the Provincial Auditor. I would like to remind my colleague, the Member for Russell, who was the fonner Minister of Education, and I quote from page 92 of the Provincial Auditor's report: There is no evidence at a11 that ALCs developed as a result of con sidered policy development by the government of the day. We know where this issue stands. We are concerned with the taxpayer of Manitoba on the issue.

We are going to guarantee that the taxpayer of Manitoba has accountability, some thing that was sorely Jacking under the guise of members opposite. Mr. Derkach: On a new question. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for Russe11, on a new question. Mr. Derkach: We have asked repeatedly why the RCMP investigation did not extend to the providers of adult learning educ ators who in fact profited from the inflated enrolments. We have asked that repeatedly. This minister has indi cated to the people of Morris-Macdonald School Division that individuals should be suing the education providers.

Is this the kind of action that this Government is promoting in this province, that individual ratepayers should use their money to sue the education providers who profited from the money that was transferred to them? Mr. Caldwell: If only members opposite had been so <:oncemed before tens of millions of dollars went out the door without any legislation. Again, there is no evidence at all that adult learning centres developed as a result of consid ered policy development by the government of the day.

Further, no policy was considered for local, community-driven, decentralized, flexible, province-wide array of centres designed to meet multiple adult learning centre needs. This program as developed by members opposite was a chimera. There is no account ability in a program that was developed by members opposite. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Minister of Education, to conclude your comments.

11 24 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 2002 Mr. Caldwell: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. While members opposite are scrambling for their dic tionaries, I will place it in context. The system of adult learning centres established by members opposite, a house of cards had more stability. Mr. Derkach: This is the same minister who illegally flowed a half-million dollars to Agassiz School Division, who sat on the infonnation about Morris-Macdonald School Division for a full year without having his internal audit staff go out and do any work on it.

He knew about it for a full year. * (1 4:30) I want to ask the minister why he is laying the blame and the responsibility on individ ual ratepayers and residents of Morris-Macdonald School Division and allowing his department to incur such hardship on this school division. Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, obviously I am not. But just as obviously the provincial taxpayers, every Manitoban as represented by members opposite and as represented by members on this side of the House, are out between $2.5 million and $4 million, as identified by the Pr ovin cial Auditor.

I am shocked that members oppo site would not want to hold accountable those responsible for millions of dollars of Manitoba taxpayers' money being mismanaged in this way. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMB ERS' STATEMENTS Winnipeg Falc ons Mr. Edward Helwer (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise today to recognize the accomplishments of the 1920 Winnipeg Falcons, the first Olympic gold medalists in hockey and one of the greatest teams in Canadian hockey history.

The road to the 1920 Olympic gold medal for the Falcons began with a victory over the Toronto Varsity in the Toronto Amphitheater. The win gav e the team the title of Allan Cup Champions. For their victory, Mr. Speaker, the Falcons were named to represent Canada at the Olympic Games in Antwerp, Belgium, a series which was also to represent the world championship simultaneously. The Winnipeg Falcons were a dominant force in the 1920 Games and represented our Country with pride.

The Falcons defeated the Czechoslovakian team 15 to nothing, the Swedish team 12 to 1, and defeated Team USA by a score of 2 to nothing en route to the Olympic gold medal as well as the 1920 World Hockey Championship. A mural to honour the 1920 gold medalists which was previously on display in the rotunda in the Manitoba Legislature is now on display in its new, permanent home in Gimli. The mural by artist Luther Pokrant depicts the principal members of the Falcons, who were Icelandic immigrants from Winnipeg's west end.

For their contributions to the sport of hockey in this country, I would like to recognize the accomplishments of the Winnipeg Falcons. They proudly represented our country and also those of Icelandic heritage in Manitoba. The 1920 Winnipeg Falcons were the first on a long list of dominant Canadian hockey teams and were true Olympic heroes. UNESCO'S Associated Schools Project Network Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to recognize a UNESCO pilot project that will be launched in Manitoba schools in 2003 which is known as the Associated Schools Project Network.

UNESCO's Associated Schools Project is a network of 6500 schools in 16 5 countries. These schools commit themselves to fostering a "culture of peace" by focussing on four main themes of study: World Concerns and the UN's role in responding; Cross-Cultural Education, Environn1ental Concerns, Human Rights, Democracy and Tolerance. Participating in this international school's network provides an opportunity to network locally, nationally and globally with other schools that are committed to a program of learning and preparing students to be engaged and responsible citizens.

May 7, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 25 This program of learning is integrated into curriculum areas across the academic disciplines as well as co-curricular programs initiatives. This UNESCO program has been in existence in many countries since its beginning in 1953 but has not existed in Canada until now. It was Gareth Neufeld, vice-principal at River East Collegiate, who worked hard to bring this program to Canada. He succeeded by con vincing the River East School Board, the superintendent's department and the Minister of Education, Training and Youth (Mr.

Caldwell) that this program had great educational merit. As a result of the Minister of Education's interest in this project, he appointed Linda Mlodzinski as the provincial co-ordinator to assist in bringing this program to Canada. UNESCO and the Minister of Education have officially launched the network in Mani toba, making it the first province in Canada invited to participate in this pilot project.

Carolyn Lintott, assistant superintendent in charge of curriculum in the River East School Division points out that it was Neufeld who saw the importance of this initiative and he per suaded everyone that it was worth doing. As a result of Neufeld's efforts, River East Collegiate will be in the front line when schools will be considered for this UNESCO program in 2003. Mr. Speaker, I think this UNESCO program will make a difference in our troubled world by placing education at the forefront to defend peace. Thank you. Gillis School Mr.

Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): I would like to extend my congratulations to the new Gillis School in Tyndall which celebrated its grand opening on April 18 , 2002. The construction of Gillis School is made possible only by a great deal of hard work and dedicated service from many people. The community parent committee started the process more than 10 years ago by mobilizing the communities of Tyndall and Garson to lobby the Agassiz School Division and the provincial government for the construction of a new school to serve both communities.

The Agassiz School Division trustees, espe cially trustee Lynn Champagne, also believed in the project and made it a priority. Jim Mc Crae, the then-Education Minister, made the an nouncement for the approval of construction of the school and, of course, our MLA of the day, Darren Praznik, ensured that the process continued. All members of the current government and the Opposition are to be congratulated in ensuring that the funding for the construction of the school continued and that the construction of Gillis School became a reality.

The construction of Gillis School is vitally important to the communities of Tyndall and Garson. Tyndall and Garson are in the process of amalgamating voluntarily into one community before the end of the year. A new sewer and water system is planned for both communities. The construction of Gillis School, the amalgamation of Tyndall and Garson and the new sewer and water system will help ensure the survival and the continued growth of Tyndall and Garson. The Gillis School is a wonderful facility and the opening of Gillis School was a great day for Tyndall and Garson.

The school has a dedicated and enthusiastic principal in Larry Schroeder and a dedicated and enthusiastic group of teach ers and support staff who will ensure that their dedication and their enthusiasm for learning will be passed onto the children, and I thank them for that. Job Re-Entry Program Ms. Nancy Allan (St. Vital): It gives me great pleasure to rise today to recognize a very valuable program in my constituency, a career training program in St. Vital that helps people re-enter the workforce.

It gives me great pleasure to see the Victor Mager Job Re-Entry program increasing its space for classrooms and computer lab spaces. This program helps people who are strug gling to find meaningful work and new

11 26 LEGIS LA TlVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA May 7, 2002 Canadians, it helps them develop the skills necessary for meaningful work. It has been doing this with success for the past 15 years. Through the program, the new abilities that the participants develop will allow them to finally have jobs that pennit them to better provide for themselves and for their families. The program centre is located at 942 St. Mary's Road. It serves 50 to 60 people from the St. Vital area each year and if space pern1its, it expands outside to the Winnipeg area.

This program is funded by Manitoba Education and Training, Manitoba Labour and Immi gration, the National Child Benefit pro gram and Human Resources Development Canada. The program director, Joan Embleton, says that over three-quarters of the program's participants find stable employment each year. This goes to prove how successful the program is and shows how meaningful it is for those who take part. I am happy to say that I recently had the opportunity to visit the students and staff at the Victor Mager Job Re-Entry program. I toured the centre and got to see first-hand the great work that goes on there.

I think it is wonderful to see that our Government provides these .valuable opportunities for both families and new Cana dians. It is my sincere hope that we continue to provide our citizens with the skills they need in order to contribute both to our society and to their families' well-being. Finally, I would like to congratulate the Victor Mager Job Re-Entry program for their expansion, and I wish them much luck and continued success for the future. * (14: 40) Westgrove Elementary School Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I would like to congratulate West grove Elementary School's staff and students on the recent launch of their Healthful Happenings program. This project was initiated last fall by two students, Grade 4, Carolyn Shead and Grade 5, Cameron MacKin non, after conducting a survey which showed that 60 percent of the students at their school were not consuming enough milk. Following the lead of these students, principal Susan Schmidt and teacher Janice Wheeler started work on instituting a universal snack program at West grove School to meet the nutritional needs of the children.

Many of the staff members see students who come to school without adequate nutrition. The program is based on the same philos ophy used by Sandra Dean, principal of South Simcoe Public School, a school in a low-income neighbourhood in Oshawa, Ontario. This philosophy follows very closely in my own belief that the community best strengthens itself from within.

In order to make this program successful, they have asked the community for assistance and have received funding from the Assiniboine South School Division, other schools in Assiniboine South, such as Beaumont, Dieppe, Westdale, Charleswood Junior High and Oak Park, from the Westgrove Parent Council, the Charleswood Legion, Canadian Tire, Charles wood Rotary, Knights of Columbus, Canadian Living, Cox Morris Insurance, Park West Mall Merchants Association, Peak of the Market and myself: During the pilot program, the school will evaluate the program by collecting data and documenting changes in behaviour and learning.

Mr. Speaker, this project is ty pical of the innovative nature of Charleswood residents and the strong volunteer spirit in our community. Congratulations to students and staff at West grove School and to everybody from the community who have put forward a great effort to strengthen our community and make things better for the child ren of Charles wood. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): First I would like to announce that the Standing Committee on Law Amendments will meet on Monday, May 13 , at 10 a.m., to

May 7, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 27 continue consideration of Bill 6, The Fortified Buildings Act. Mr. Speaker, would you canvass the House to detennine if there is leave to move a motion to change a title of a bill on the Order Paper, Consumer Protection Amendment Act? Mr. Speaker: lt has been announced that the Standing Committee on Law Amendments will meet on Monday, May 13 , at 10 a.m., to continue consideration of Bill 6, The Fortified Buildings Act. Is there leave to modify_ the bill? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: 1 move, seconded by the Minister of Labour (Ms.

Barrett), that the title of Bill 12 , as it appeared on the Notice Paper of December 6, 2001, and currently on the Order Paper under Introduction of Bills, be replaced with The Consumer Protection Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia protection du consommateur. Motion agreed to. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, would you canvas the House to see if there is leave to waive private members' hour today and to adjourn the House at 5 p.m.? Mr. Speaker: Is it the will of the House to waive private members' hour and to adjourn the House at 5 p.m.? [Agreed] Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I move, second ed by the Minister of Labour, that the House resolve into Committee of Supply. Motion agreed to. * (1 4:50) COMMIT TEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) CONSERVATION Mr. Chai rperson (Harry Schellenberg): Order, please. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order this afternoon. This

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Conservation. When the committee last sat, it had been considering item 3. Regional Operations "(

b) Northwest Region

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits on page 45 of the Estimates book. Shall the item pass? Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Chainnan, 1 would like the minister to bring a little bit more clarity to the issue of why he is running such an exclusionary process relative to the management or our sport fishery in the province. He has a number of sports groups that I mentioned who include money raised by Fish Futures.

Without including the value of the labour and the value of the voluntary self discipline that these groups put in place around sport fishing in this province, he is deliberately excluding them from the consultation process and how he intends to set up management agreements around the sport fishery in the provmce. Now there are two lakes that have partic ularly drawn a lot of attention, but this issue is a heck of a lot bigger than just those two lakes.

If he wants to argue that in many respects the West Region Tribal Council feel that they have been excluded from the regulatory process up till now, that would be not an unreasonable position for him to take.

It would also be fair to say that, other than by way of providing advice, in many respects the sport fishery community has not been included in the regulatory body's decision-making process either, but if we are about to embark in a new and, I would say, probably very exciting area of management of our resources, in this case our prairie lake resources and co-management agreements that might flow, I think the minister is making one mighty big mistake by not including the very people who put their own blood, sweat, tears and money into making this happen. Mr.

Chairperson, $1 00,000, maybe that is at the upper end of the amount of money that is voluntarily raised, but if you want to stretch the amount of money that has been raised over the last 20 years by these fish enhancement groups, you are looking at one huge chunk of cash, and there is a bigger portion that is missing in this debate. The minister either sees it and does not

11 28 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 2002 want to acknowledge it or just simply does not want to acknowledge the voluntary work for habitat enhancement, voluntary work for stock ing lakes for sport fishery, voluntary self control, if you will, by literally hundreds of people who are on the lake and enjoy the opportunity to fish, enjoy and in fact support the barbless fishing sport that we now have in this provmce.

This province is, in fact, leading in the country in tenns of barbless hooks and the acceptance of barbless hooks, all the way from the northem Northwest Territories boundary, where this concept was first I believe put into practice by a private outfitter in order to protect the long-tem1 viability of his business, to where my colleague the Member for Interlake (Mr. Nevakshonoff), I believe he was the one who implemented by regulation barbless fishing in this province.

If you look at the fishing publications across North America, Lake Dauphin and Lake of the Prairies are listed specifically as two of the best sport fishing lakes in this province. I am asking the minister why he would exclude, specifically exclude these fish enhance ment groups who have volunteered their labour, their time, their equipment, and they have provided a tremendous amount of education and leadership in the communities that they repre sented, the communities that they represent the fish enhancement concept in.

So not only am I asking him why he is excluding them, I will extend the question to beg him to include them, because up until now, despite what he has said in tenns of his willingness to include them� there has been no concrete action to bring them to the table. As I have said earlier today, even the Minister of Agriculture (Ms. Wowchuk), when specifically asked about this, said it ain't going to happen, or words to that effect. Now either the two of you had better get together in Cabinet or in the hallways, or the Premier (Mr.

Doer) better pull the two of you together and discuss where the govemment direction is on this. I am not so much seeking retribution, Mr. Minister, as I am seeking some clear idea of where you want to take this. If you cannot give us any more of a clear idea in what we have been given up until now, then we will be seeking retribution, politically and otherwise. Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conser vation): I am really glad that the member is raising this as the lead question, because I was listening very carefully to the Member for Lakeside yesterday when he was making his opening remarks.

I was going to mention it yesterday as well, but I did not. There was no opportunity for me to do that, but I knew that I would probably have that opportunity today. I clearly detected yesterday from the member's comments, the Member for Lakeside, and again the Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings) is saying exactly the same thing today, and that is, why are you dealing with only Indians, more or less what the Member for Lakeside was saying. Point of Order Mr. Cummings: I want it clearly understood that the minister is choosing his own words. Those are not my words. Mr.

Lathlin: If the member would have listened, if he had not interrupted he would have heard me say, and that is what I want to say now, the Member for Lakeside, he did not use in so many words, but that is the message that I got from him clearly yesterday. You know, he says, your- Mr. Chairperson: Excuse me. We will first rule on this one. Honourable minister, are you finished? Okay, thank you. There is no point of order. There is a dispute over the facts. Mr. Harry Enos (Lakeside): Mr.

Speaker, on the point of order, I do not have the advantage of having the printed Hansard in front of me for past reference, but it was only yesterday, and I clearly understood what I was saying. I was commenting on the fact, the specific fact that the minister had in his opening statement several times referred to the fact that they were working diligently to arrive at mutually satisfactory reso lutions to problems.

May 7, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1129 When he said that he was referring to his discussions with the western tribal group or with the Metis people or without them, I reminded him that to arrive at mutually agreeable solutions to the problems or challenges that it had to include all stakeholders. If the minister wants to put that kind of

interpretation that he is now putting on it, it is grossly unfair and grossly in correct. On top of that, I am well satisfied and senior department people are well aware that co management, working with the Aboriginal com munities was very much part of the department long before he became minister, long before I became minister. We had a director solely responsible for that in the late '80s and '90s, working with various tribal groups and specific bands arriving at co management agreements, worked successfully with a band that he was once chief of.

We have worked out elk management agreements with native groups. I mean, the concept of govern ments or this Department of Conservation, or natural resources as it was then known, now only beginning to include, to talk to Aboriginal communities is absolutely utter nonsense, and I will not stand for the minister pulling that kind of a race card on me and this committee, period. * (15: 00) Mr. Chairpet·son: The honourable minister, on the same point of order. Mr. Lathlin: On the same point of order, Mr. Chairperson, what I am saying to the Mem ber for Lakeside (Mr.

Enns) is yesterday in his opening remarks he said: How come you are not referencing all stakeholders? He said: You are only referencing Aboriginal people, words to that effect, and that is the message that I got. {interjection] Mr. Chairperson: Excuse me. Would you let the minister complete his statement, and then I will recognize you and you can make your statement. Thank you. Mr. Lathlin: The statement I am making, Mr. Chairperson, is that the message that I got clearly from the Member for Lakeside yesterday was how come you are excluding-you are only dealing with Aboriginal people and not every body else.

That is the message that I got, and what I wanted to come back with this afternoon is, as far as I can determine when I first became Con servation Minister- Mr. Chairperson: Excuse me. Can you com plete your remarks and we will get into the debate. Mr Lathlin: Okay, you can make your ruling. Mr. Chairperson: There is no point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. Just a reminder, a point of order is to refer to a breach of the rules, not to debate an issue. I will recognize you and you can ask questions, and that is your time when you debate. Thank you. *** Mr. Chairperson: The Member for Ste. Rose. Mr.

Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I believe I was supposed to answer the Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings), his opening question or his opening statement or his opening allegation. Mr. Chairperson: Honourable Minister. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I wanted to say that when I first beca me Minister of Conser vation-and the two members will know this because they have been in government before, and they have gone through a Cabinet shuffle and all that.

They recognize and know full well that the first two weeks or maybe even more time, you spend a lot of time getting briefed and going through orientation, and departmental staff come in and different divisions come in and tell you what their activities are all about. At the same time while that is happening, you are getting departmental briefing, you are also introduced to non-departmental groups, and most of these non-departmental groups are of the advisory type. Mr. Chairperson, some are Order in-Council appointed advisory people. Some are not Order-in-Council advisory groups.

But there are groups like the friends of the elm, Ducks Unlimited. I think I counted almost pretty well close to 40 groups that I had to meet with when I first became the Minister of Conservation. All of these groups have access to the minister. They were, after all, advisors to the

11 30 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 2002 minister and the Govemment and to govemment policy. As I said, I met close to 40 groups, and every time I sat down to meet with these advisors, good advisors, I am not saying they are unnecessary, but the one observation I made was there were no Aboriginal people amongst all of those many advisory groups. I started to wonder whether it would be a good idea for Govemment, you know, if we have all these advisory groups and none of them have Aboriginal members, does it not make sense to appoint an Aboriginal advisory group? You know, one group amongst forty.

I do not think that was too much to ask, I thought, in my opinion. At the same time, when I became minister, the Bumt Church issue was just at its peak. I followed that issue quite closely through the media and through connections that I have with the Assembly of First Nations. What I was thinking at the time that it was happening in Bumt Church was: How cal1 we avoid that in Manitoba where there is so much confrontation? How can we develop a hannonious relationship with First Nations people who, after all, by virtue of the treaty,

section 35 of the Canadian Constitution, regardless of how much it galls some people, do have a special relationship with the federal govemment, with the Crown because they are signatories to treaties around the 18 00s? My First Nation, I am a member of the OCN, The Pas band, was signatory to the Treaty 5. I know what words are written in Treaty 5. As a chief you have to know these things, as a staff member of a First Nation, as an adviser to a First Nation, the first thing you have to know is what the treaties are all about.

Then, from there, you branch out to other entities, organizations, gov enm1ents that you have to work with. Of course, you start learning about First Ministers' confer ences, dealing with the question of Aboriginal people, First Nations. So that is where I got the idea that in order for this Govemment-and it did not matter whether I was of First Nations ancestry, I just saw from my own experience.

I recognized and I understood that the only way that this Gvemment could possibly work with First Nations with respect to treaty issues like fishing, hunting, and so forth, was to work with them, not work against them. So I made a very deliberate decision that I would find a way that we could work with Aboriginal people. I looked at the history of Aboriginal relations with govemments in Manitoba and also with the federal govemment, but in this case I looked at the relationship between Aboriginal people and provincial govemments in Manitoba.

I do not think anybody could argue with me today that, although things were progressing, things were improving somewhat, but it has not been all that harmonious, this relationship between Aborig inal, First Nations people with the provincial govemment when it comes to resources, natural resources. When I was a chief, we fought a hunting case and we won the case, a migratory birds hunting case in The Pas, Flett v. The Queen. We won that case. You want to know how we won that case? We won that case based on the Canadian Constitution, the protection of treaty rights,

section 35. That is how we won that case. I mention that example in order to make my point that relations between Aboriginal people and govemments have never been that good, in my humble opinion. My thinking was, while in order to work with First Nations on treaty issues, we have to make sure that we include them in the process.

Whether it is consultation groups, advisory groups, we have to make sure that they are part of the process, because if we want them to support govemment initiatives, we have to make them feel that they are part of the circle. * (15:10 ) If we continue to place them on the periphery and being cheerleaders to all this development that is going on in Manitoba with respect to resources, natural resources, then that relationship, I am afraid, · would continue to remain the same.

We made a deliberate decision to develop mechanisms that would facilitate Aboriginal people playing a key role in the management of natural resources in Manitoba. We established the Aboriginal Resource Council. I insisted, by the way, that at the time that we were

May 7, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 31 establishing this group that I did not want chiefs, I did not want councillors, I wanted technical people of Aboriginal ancestry to advise govem ment on policies respecting natural resources mainly. We also, Mr. Chairperson, along the same vein, established a division in govemment called Aboriginal relations. Why did we do that? Because we saw a real need for us to develop those relationships with First Nations people.

There is currently in govemment right now a division called Aboriginal relations headed by a director who is of Aboriginal ancestry and staff people who are of Aboriginal ancestry. Their job is to liaise with Aboriginal people, establish the rapport, the relationship and give us further recommendations as to how we can work with First Nations people. That has been established. Not long after that the issue of Lake Dauphin arose. We had not even been fully established yet. We were still developing the organizations. In any event, the fishery issue arose in Lake Dauphin.

We tried to fast-track the development work that we were doing. We could not get it finished on time. Nevertheless, we went about working with an individual First Nation, a tribal council, and the Manitoba Metis Federation to see if we could come to some sort of an agreement on the management of the environment, the natural resources of Manitoba. We were pretty success ful in negotiating with the three groups. In fact, an MOU was signed with OCN. An MOU was signed with the West Region Tribal Council. Work is continuing with the Manitoba Metis Federation.

When we are finished with those agreements, what will happen in fact is there will be co-management of resources. It is not just the Aboriginal people, First Nations people with their treaty rights agreeing to stop using this resource because Govemment says so, because other user groups say so. The reason that they will be developing their own environment protection by-laws is to protect the environment that they are in and also around their traditional land use areas. They will develop conservation by-laws to help in the management of sustainable resources throughout Manitoba.

It is our intention to work with those First Nations who are going that way. We will be more than willing to work with them, co-manage the resources so that, in the end, hopefully, we will not run into the situations that we are running into right now at Lake of the Prairies and Lake Dauphin. Had we done this sort of thing 15, 20 years ago, we would not be sitting here today talking about whether I am working too much with Aboriginal people and not enough with non Aboriginal people or vice versa, because everybody, including Aboriginal people, would be in on the picture.

There would not be anybody dissatisfied or feel left out of the process and, as a result, of making an income or whatever from fishing, logging and so on. So I am glad the member led off with that kind of question, be<:ause I wanted to explain exactly where we are coming from. I recognize what the two members are saying. They are getting a lot of representations from different groups, and so it is their job to bring up these issues in Question Period and in this forum here. Just like I get pressures from groups, when I was in opposition, to bring up issues · in the House or during Estimates.

So I thank the member for asking that question, and I, for one, do not subscribe to the idea that we exclude one from the other. The problem here has been, even the groups that I have been working with in Lake Dauphin and Lake of the Prairies, it took some time to convince them. In fact, in Dauphin, one day I was meeting with them, and I said, look, you guys, you have to get used to facing each other and talking about these issues square on. You cannot continue to attack each other on the radio and on television and in the newspapers. You have to sit down and talk about these issues.

I made the comment, but I know that it is difficult be<:ause you are not used to doing that. I made the comment to get together even if all you do is get together for coffee and chat about whatever, but get used to talking to each other so that, in the event an issue like the fishing issue that arose in Dauphin comes up, you will know how to talk to each other. You will not be scared to, you know, will I offend or have I said too much or will I be classified as whatever, because you will become friends. You will become used to talking to each other. I am telling you it was not easy

1132 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 2002 convincing. On the one side, the First Nations people are saying there is no way I am going to allow anybody other than the provincial gov enm1ent to become involved in a bilateral process. By that, they mean the treaty. The sport fishennen's groups did not sign the treaties is what the First Nations people were telling me. On the other hand, when I talk to the non-First Nations people, all they can talk about is how bad the First Nations people are for doing what they are doing.

I recall meeting with Harvey Nepinak and some of the chiefs in Dauphin, I would say about two months ago, and they gave us a presentation, the same kind of presentation that they gave to the sport fishermen's group, the Chamber of Commerce and, I think, even the town council in Dauphin. They gave the presentation to our office in Dauphin, and they went around to each reserve to give the same kind of presentation.

I thought it was a useful piece of work, so I encouraged them to go to Lake of the Prairies and do the same kind of a presentation, and I encouraged them to meet with the Lake Dauphin sport fishermen's group and do the same thing. They were quite willing to do that. In fact, the letter I tabled earlier in the House was, again, an invitation to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray), inviting the leader to a meeting where the West Region Tribal Council would have the opportunity to go through the whole treaty process, the Constitution

section 35, but I have yet to determine whether the Leader of the Opposition has even responded to that invitation or whether, in fact, they are willing to meet with the group. My suggestion is that they should because, if they do, then they begin to have a better understanding of the issue that we are talking about. For the longest time, while this issue was developing and emotions were high, in fact, some people were out there trying to inflame that emotion even higher. That process, of course- * (15:20) Point of Order Mr. Cummings: I have listened patiently for about 20 minutes.

I asked the minister; I prob ably took about five minutes, or if I took longer, fine, but I sure did not take 20 minutes to place my question relative to why he is not including groups of public interest who put a lot of their own money and effort into maintaining and enhancing fisheries across this province, and particularly where it is very localized, like Lake of the Prairies, which is an artificial lake, and Lake Dauphin, which is a heavily used lake.

I would ask the minister if his answer was in the last couple of minutes when he basically said that nobody besides the First Nations and the Government of Manitoba, and I suppose he included the Government of Canada, were going to have anything to say that would be useful regarding fishing. Is that what he was saying? Mr. Chairperson: Honourable minister, on the same point of order. Mr. Lathlin : That is not what I said. Again, I am disappointed in the member's line of questioning, again, because what I told the members, he is asking me to make sure that everybody is included, and that is what I am doing.

I was merely conveying to him the feelings of the West Region Tribal Council chiefs when I met with them the last time. The first time that I suggested that they should get together with the Lake Dauphin sports fishing group, initially, that is how they felt, but they do not feel that way anymore. That is what I was trying. It is not me, as minister of the Crown, saying to him that it will only be a bilateral process. If only the member would listen, I have just been trying to explain to him that all this time I have been encouraging people to get together. So how can he say that? Mr.

Chairperson: I will rule on the point of order. There is no point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. Now, just so everyone is aware here, speeches in Supply, with exception of the minister's opening statement, are limited to 30 minutes, and he has not spoken 30 minutes yet. So I think we should allow him to finish his 30 minutes. Point of Order Mr. Cummings: On a point of order, are you telling this committee, Mr. Chairman, and I am challenging you, are you saying that is the rule you intend to impose on this committee, that

May 7, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1133 . when we have the mike, we will be allowed to hold it for 30 minutes? Mr. Chairperson: On the point of order the Member for Ste. Rose made, mle 75. (1) except as provided in Sub-rule (2), which is the address of ministers introducing the Estimates of the department may exceed 30 minutes but shall be restricted to 60 minutes.

I will read the rest of rule 75.( 1 ): "Except as provided in Sub-rule (2), speeches in Committee of Supply, including those of Ministers, shall be restricted to 30 minutes." Each member that has the tloor can speak up to 30 minutes, but we do not want to use the points of order as debates. I think there is some discretion there. That is what I am trying to say. If you want to speak, we will recognize you, and you can put your statements forward. * * * Mr. Chairperson: The honourable minister has the tloor. Mr. Lathlin: As I was trying to explain to the member, Mr.

Chairperson, the first thing that I had to do was to convince all those groups to work together. At the last meeting that I was at with Lake of the Prairies, and this is proof of the situation that exists there, at the every end of the meeting, one of the representatives got up and he asked me: Minister, are you going to arrange a meeting for us with the West Region Tribal Council? With the greatest of respect, I tried to point out to him, why can you not pick up the phone and phone Harvey Nepinak, the West Region Tribal Council? You know, you have got to start somewhere.

So that is what I mean by these groups did not want to work with each other when we first started the process, but they are now willing to work with each other. An example is the premise of the member's question, that we are not involving everyone. We are. We are trying to involve everyone. Talk to Lake of the Prairies, for example. They are working together. The chief of Valley River went to Grandview, Roblin, met with the mayor and council. So they are working together.

It is not perfect yet, but we are working very hard to get these people to work together because as a minister I would sooner have them working together, rather than fighting each other. I saw pictures on TV where there was almost violence, and it was troublesome. So that is why I stayed away from making those comments when this issue was developing. I was more interested in getting all the sides together. I am telling you, when we first started, it was hard. I did not think it was possible, just the tone of the exchanges that went back and forth. So now we are there. In fact, Mr.

Chairperson, I will conclude by saying that even the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach) came up to my office just before the Lake of the Prairies meeting, and he said: Oscar, what it is you are doing, I am with you; I want to support you. That is the Member for Russell. Today, just after Question Period, again he came up to me and he said: Y bu are right, Oscar, that is what I said. Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairn1an, through you to the minister, I am certainly pleased to hear the minister is working in this direction. I have a great deal of respect for a gentleman like Mr.

Harvey Nepinak, with whom I was able to, with the help of the department and the Government of Canada, establish one of the first bison herds at the Waterhen back in '79 and 1980. If I understood the minister correctly, he indicated in his brief reply, to which my colleague was taking umbrage, that this group, the western travel group, has worked out a memorandum of understanding with respect to co-management of Lake Dauphin. Is that correct, Mr. Chairperson? Mr. Lathlin: What we have done, Mr.

Chairperson, is a memorandum of understanding has been signed by the West Region Tribal Council and the Government and Conservation. That MOU will develop the framework for negotiations of an agreement. While we were working on that MOU, by the way, Mr. Chairperson, the fishing issue in Lake Dauphin erupted, so, therefore, the West Region Tribal Council had to focus on that issue.

1134 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA May 7, 2002 But, really, it did not have to do with fishing only. It had to do with other resources, but the fact that the fishing issue erupted in Dauphin, they ended up spending most of their time dealing with that issue and trying to resolve it. Since then, of course, it has come a long way to getting resolved. * (15:30) Mr. Enos: Mr. Chairn1an, I am just trying to follow this through. A memorandum of under standing has been signed with the Government and the western tribal group re the resources around Lake Dauphin or the fisheries of Lake Dauphin, I understand.

The minister said that memorandum will now be used as a tool or as a means to further negotiate a management agree ment, let us say, a fisheries management agreement for Lake Dauphin that includes all stakeholders and all fisheries. In other words, these other groups, the sports fishing people will now at some point in time have to come sit down with the western tribal group and work out a management program for Lake Dauphin. Is that the direction the minister is heading? Mr.

Lath lin: We signed the memorandum of understanding with the West Region Tribal Council that will result in a framework agreement, that will set out the parameters for negotiations. Now let us say that everything was completed. We have a co-management agree ment. It would include Lake Dauphin. There would be a management plan for Lake Dauphin. Of course, and I know the member is aware of this, it is just like in Lake Winnipeg. There are several user groups in Lake Winnipeg, so they all have to work together.

So the West Region Tribal Council, because this will not only involve Lake Dauphin, it will also involve other rivers and lakes around the area, especially in their traditional land-use areas, but they will come up with their own conservation by-laws. For example, they will issue their own pennits, their own licences. They will issue their own quotas but in conjunction with Conservation, because you have to determine the capacity of the Jake with respect to fish populations. Everybody around the table, including the West Region Tribal Council, knows that the whole idea behind this is sustainability.

So they wiJI work with other groups. That is the aim of the work we have been doing so far, but the process is so new. That is why I am encouraging, I am suggesting to members oppo site, they should take up the offer, the invitation extended by the West Region Tribal Council and go and have a meeting with them and get an education. Mr. Enos: Mr. Chairman, reject the proposition the minister gave. The process is not new at all. How did we manage to sign an elk management agreement with First Nations people and other outfitters and other non-Native individuals when that particular resource was a concern?

How have the fisheries been managed on our major fisheries on Lake Winnipeg for the last 1 00 years, with full involvement of Aboriginal people and the Metis communities with respect to those fisheries? The issue is precisely the point that my colleague points out. You have a management plan in place that you are going to present to people who I am assuming will see it for the first time since they have not been asked to be part of the development of the plan and will in fact be presented with a fait accompli.

I ask the minister: Do you honestly expect the same enthusiasm and the same sports people to hold fund-raising dinners, do volunteer works for spawning ground improvements, to help with the stocking of fish when they are now being so totally excluded from the process? Mr. Lathlin: I am really glad that the member asked that question because, on the one hand, he talks about the sports fish enhancement groups.

They have been applying for funding for their enhancement projects, but, on the other hand, there has virt ually been no working with the Aboriginal community because they keep asking me or they keep telling me: How do we make application like the one Lake Dauphin sports fishermen groups are doing. An Honourable Member: The same way we do.

May 7, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 35 Mr. Lathlin: Well, right. See, but this is the point I was making earlier. They have not really been part of the process, so how can they apply? Nobody even sends them the project description, application fonns. So they are not aware. All they know is that these guys are getting it and we are not. One of the things we are trying to do now is to make sure that all the groups in Manitoba get the application fonns, no matter where they are, north, south, east, or west. We excluded a lot of communities that way by not doing that.

So we are trying to encourage that. , Mr. Enos: I do not take issue with what the minister has indicated. I just want to point out that there is no question that in some of these programs that are run by the department, the Conservation Sustainable Development Fund, the non-native organizations, NGOs and groups and sport fishem1en groups, whatever you want to call it, they were better versed in how to approach govemment and how to get the application going. They also had the determi nation to often raise the necessary monies on their own that many of these grant structures called for.

I want to assure the minister, and I applaud what the minister is doing, they were not ex cluded. There were not as many as I would have liked, but there certainly were some grants flowing to Aboriginal organizations when and if an application was received. Mr. Stan Struthers, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr. Lathlin: I would just like to add further that when we finally get the groups working together, you know what, those Aboriginal organizations, band councils, connnunity coun cils, they will be making application for their own sport fishing enhancement projects.

The reason they have not been doing that so far is that there just has not been that opportunity. Earlier I said I met with all these close to 40 groups who are all somehow involved in advis ing the minister on government policy. They became experts of grants and how to access them, and so on and so forth. But I know that is just the way it works. So the more Aboriginal people become involved, the more aware they become of grant opportunities for activities such as fish enhancement projects. They want to do that. They have told me. Mr. Cummings: Mr.

Chairman, a couple of things I would like to react to what the minister just said. Number one, is he is ignoring or has he not been informed of a number of approaches including areas not too far from the centre of the controversy in the Parkland where we worked at considerable length to encourage spawn produc tion, hatcheries to benefit the Lonely Lake being an example of getting people to be part of the fish enhancement process? But I have a concem, and the minister may feel that he has answered the question, but he has not put on the record what I think he needs to.

If he is this far down the pipe and is quite prepared to defend what he has done, then he still has not talked about what the next step might be and he has left it to supposition, which creates anger, animosity and unease out there among the groups that I am speaking on behalf of during these types of questions. They are clearly saying that they have not been involved in the process. You are saying, well, they should sit down with the First Nations and discuss this. It is twofold, is their concem.

They believe, and I would say that I support them, that they are going to be presented with a fait accompli on what the regulation and the management profile of the lakes in question are going to be. If that is the way the minister operates, then I guess we will all have to live with it. After all, he represents the govemment of the day, but he is creating a turmoil out there for himself and for others that he could alleviate fairly quickly if he would be prepared to put something on the record today, for that matter.

These groups have raised about a hundred thousand dollars collectively, if you look at the Fish Futures money, and there is serious discussion among these groups about the money that they have raised. In some cases they are fairly blatant about it in their discussion. They are raising money in order to fight the minister on what he is doing.

11 36 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANI TOBA May 7, 2002 Now, I could sit here and rub my hands in glee and say, okay, let us see how the minister handles this. The minister can save himself a lot of grief. I have been known to give NDP Cabinet ministers free advice before, and they did not necessarily take it. Let us take a look at what the minister is facing in relationship to these organ izations.

Dauphin and Swan River, particularly the people from Swan River, are fairly blatant about the fact that they are on the verge of committing a good chunk of money, and people in Fish Futures are on the verge of talking about converting a fair bit of the money that they have raised towards supporting efforts to making sure that they get heard. Now, Mr. Minister, you are the minister and you can reach out to these groups as you have been talking clearly about how you want to reach out to your Aboriginal conununity that you feel has been neglected. The minister shakes his head.

Why is it any different for him to reach out to these sport enhancement groups who put hundreds, thousands of hours worth of volunteer work? They are raising over a period of years several hundred thousand dollars which they then reinvest voluntarily to assist the department for which he is responsible to establish stocking in the lakes, to help establish slot limits, help control fishing that would be damaging to the growth of the stocks.

Why would he ignore that opportunity? · * (15: 40) I am clearly on the record on Lake Dauphin and other places saying that any government, whether it is one that he is part of or one that I would be part of, has an obligation to engage all of these user groups, because if he does not he is going to have an inability to manage, an inability to enhance where necessary, because he does not have the resources in the department. That is not a political observation, that is a reality of where the Conservation and other resource departments have found themselves in the last decade, with tight government funding.

So why would he ignore the opportunity to engage these groups? If he is going to give them a fait accompli, for goodness sake communicate to them that that is what it is going to be and indicate the para meters that might be around it.

First of all, and I have to be very specific about Lake Dauphin, there are people who are quite knowledgeable who say that it is a known fact today that that lake will not be able to produce, that the seven year class of spawners are decimated, and while the fishing might be there this year, it will not be there in the foreseeable future unless some efforts are made to retrieve it. Now, that is a sad situation, Mr.

Minister, and one where you have a group out there that is ready to put their oar in the water and continue to do the things that they were doing before to enhance and develop the fish opportunities in Lake Dauphin. Lake Dauphin was virtually a dead lake, what, 12 -15 years ago. There are the efforts of the conservation districts, the Depart ment of Conservation, or resources, as it used to be, Department of Environment, the Lake Dauphin Advisory Board. That is without even mentioning the Fish Enhancement Association that is actively involved in developing fish opportunities in the lake.

Everybody has accepted that there is an opportunity and a necessity to develop co management agreements. I think the minister has got himself on the short end or maybe the long end of a teeter-totter on this. The people are being told they will have an input, and then it is not happening. That in and of itself is driving anger and frustration and concern about what is going to happen to the resource, especially with situations such as I just described where information is coming to them about some test netting that has already been done.

That does not bode well for the future of the resource unless some aggressive action is taken. We have a dry year unless something changes in the next short while. The lake is low. The tributaries are dam near dry. They are knee deep at the most in many places where they are flowing near the lake. It is cold, colder than normal, which is not going to bode well for the survival of the spawn. These are serious times for people who belong to the Fish Enhancement organizations. They want to be able to do something. They sincerely want to be given an opportunity to do something about the fish.

I suggest to the minister that if he is being genuine about his intention to bring everybody

May 7, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 37 together, telling them to go and sit down and have a coffee does not cut it. There is a mandate that rests with his office to pull these people together and clear the air and have them in a position where they can have an opportunity for input or tell them what their input is going to be. We have gone on now, starting since 1998, this issue has been in somewhat of a tunnoil, particularly in the Parkland Region. The minister points at me and correctly so. We were on a road to have all user groups at the table.

Now, the minister ref erences this letter that went out from the Minister of Conservation and West Region Tribal Council, February 13 th letter. There is one part of that letter that, I think, helps shed a little light on this debate that we are having. It says First Nations positions are negotiable only with government, not with other groups or general stakeholders. That is signed by Harvey Nepinak. {interjection} Exactly.

Now, if that is the case, and I will not dispute that is the position that they hold very strongly, if I were in the minister's shoes, I would then say fine, but let us bring the other groups to the table. I am sitting here asking the minister to give a commitment that he will do that. We have had a little political pain inflicted over this issue, and unless the minister is prepared to take this step and put it on record, I can assure him that there is going to be a lot more political pain.

So I hope that he will take my offer of honest advice and put something on the table that, if I cannot be the messenger, others will be the messenger back to these groups. * (15:50) They just finished having two very success ful fundraising events in Dauphin and Swan River.

If the minister wants that money to be spent benefiting the fish in those lakes, now is the time to put something on the record to give these people an opportunity to feel that they are going to be part of the process and that they can have a real impact on restoring particularly Lake Dauphin and Lake of the Prairies, but a number of other lakes that appear to be somewhat questionable in what the management may be imposed upon them. They will want some assurance that they will be able to have real participation.

If the minister wants to argue that there has been too little participation by the West Region Tribal Council, then I simply have to ask him the same question. Does he then intend to visit upon the Fish Enhancement organizations a policy of exclusion because he feels that other people have been excluded for too long in the process? If that is the case, there is going to be a considerable amount of hardship that will flow both ways. I want to see that money spent on fish enhancement, Mr. Minister, and I would suspect that you do too.

So I am saying again consider caref ully what you might say on the record here and now to give these fish enhancement groups a feeling that they will have some real opportunity for input. This statement gives me considerable cause for concem, but, you know, most people out there that I talked to say we know we are entering into a new era. We know that we are in an era where co-management is reality.

I guess what I have some considerable angst about is that co-management can work extremely well or it can be a system that nobody embraces, neither First Nations groups or other user groups, the general public, if you will, because I look at moose hunting area 8, I believe it is. It is in bad, bad shape. That is an example of a co-management that I believe the previous govemment signed. It is not working, Mr. Minister, and I do not know who to hang the blame on.

I just know that the moose have been decimated in that area, and probably, if we check with the department, we will find that there is going to have to be reduced harvest in that area. Mr. Chairperson in the Chair So there is no perfect answer, but I would like to see, and I will abbrevia te my comments and give the minister an opportunity to respond positively to what I am suggesting, that he is prepared to take the first step and exercise the mandate that he has as minister. It is not written in a handbook anywhere, and it is not written in any political dogma.

It is written in the book of management that talks about being inclusive in

11 38 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 2002 providing management of resources m today's world. The mm1ster talks about inclusivity. Certainly he feels that there are groups out there that should have more to say about the man agement of timber. They should have more opportunity about the mana gement of fish. I do not believe that goes full circle to the exclusion of others who are willing to put up their time and sweat and interest in enhancement of that resource.

Believe me, if the minister talked off the record quietly with any of his resource managers in this province, he will find that the most successful resource management opportunities are generally where the people in the area are involved, supportive and are making things happen. I see a positive acknowledgement from the minister. I would invite him to respond in a way that would allow these people to feel they could be part of the process. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I nodded posi tively to the member because that is what I have been trying to tell him for the last little while.

He keeps saying that I am excluding other people and I only want to work with Aboriginal people, and I think he is also suggesting that I may be punishing those other groups now because the previous government did . not work with Aboriginal people the same way we are working with them now. I want to say something about that.

I remember the former Member for Arthur Virden, and the member I am sure will remember, too, after one election we were defeated, of course, and they forn1ed govern ment, and almost the very next day in Question Period in the House the fonner Member for Arthur-Virden got up and said: Well, it is too bad the North did not know how to vote. Remember that? An Honourable Member; It was not the Minister for Arthur-Virden. Mr. Lathlin: He was Minister of Northern Affairs at the time. I want to assure the member today that I do not have that attitude.

I know that as a Conservation Minister I have to work with everybody. Even though some have suggested that because I am a First Nations person, because I am treaty, because I am a former chief, some people have even suggested that I could be in a conflict-of-interest situation. I would like to think that I am smart enough to be able to figure that out, and I have been around. I am probably the same age as the Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Cummings), you know. So I do have a little bit of experience. Now he says I exclude others.

Well, again, I take exception, because just last week we signed off a $25 ,000 fish enhancement project at Swan River, just last week. Point of Order Mr. Cummings: I imagine that was rushed through so that the Member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) could present the cheque at the fish enhancement banquet. Mr. Chairperson: There is no point of order. It is just a dispute of the facts. * * * Mr. Lathlin: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to talk a little bit about the volunteers the member refers to. I recognize that. People in government recognize that.

But, as far as excluding not working with the sports fish enhancement group, let me tell him that, and he knows this, you know, Conservation, for example, spends about $900,000 on fish culture every year, $3 50,000 on the Fisheries Enhancement Initiative and the Fisheries Enhancement Initiative, and again, as he probably knows, almost always works in a partnership way with local groups. An Honourable Member: So you double your money. * (1 6:00) Mr. Lathlin: Of course. These are the same people who are involved in the Lake of the Prairies consolidated advisory committee, for example.

I would also like to advise the member that, contrary to what he says, everybody is fighting you, you know. Actually, I can show

May 7, 2002 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 11 39 him copies of letters that have been forwarded to our office by the mayor of Dauphin, for example. I have seen letters to the editor written by Doug Ault and I am sure he read that himself, who is heading up the sport fish enhancement group in Dauphin, I believe. At least that is the guy I meet with every time I go and meet with sport fish enhancement people. I have estab lished a good working relationship with Mr. Ault and I have high respect for him.

Now, the issue about First Nations negotiating with the provincial government only, it is a fact, not a position, that First Nations negotiate legally with government, notwith standing that we will include all other stakeholders and they will be inforn1ed about our discussions with West Region, as I have been doing all along. More importantly they will be involved in a management planning for Lake Dauphin. Let me say final ly that a member, once more, and I would ask him to pay close attention and listen carefully, because I am only going to say it one more time. I am sorry, I did not mean to say that.

I want to assure the member, though, that I want all the groups to work together. I have advised the West Region Tribal Council that that is the way to go. Our people are trying to work out a mechanism so that can happen. I spoke with Mr. Ault the last time I was in Dauphin. He was quite satisfied with the progress that we were making towards that end. I want to assure the member that I want to work with all the people.

Then I want to close offby saying that I told the member a while ago that I have been around, and I recognize that no matter what you do, no matter what you say to people, there are people there who are not going to agree with you. But the majority of the people that I have worked with so far on this issue are in agreement with us and are willing to support us. Mr. Cummings: I thank the minister for his comments, but when he refers to fisheries and the amount of money that he is spending, I think he would acknowledge that he is none too flush with cash right now.

Is he prepared to intervene and provide enough money so that the hatcheries will be able to pay for the delivery of the fingerlings, or is the budget cut to the point where he now expects the Fish Enhancement organizations to cover the cost of that freight? It would be a shame if that now becomes the criteria for their being able to provide any stock assistance if they also come up with enough money to cover the freight from Grand Rapids. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I think that question was placed or put to me in another way yesterday, and that is when we were going through Regional Operations.

My response to the Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns ), I believe, who asked me the question was we are mindful of what exists out in the regions. We are going to be watching very closely that we are able to carry out our mandate, and in the event that more resources have to be allocated from other sections, other divisions, that is what we will do. But for the time being, the resources that have been allocated, it would seem to me, will be adequate. I make a commitment to the member that there can be changes made as changes are warranted.

I should also tell him that we are not cutting the fish-stocking services that were applied last year. Mr. Cummings : Well, this is moving down the road a little bit, but is the minister prepared to review the cost of operation at the Falcon Lake hatchery? It seems . to me they do not have enough budget to keep the heat on. Mr. Lathlin: I will just say to the member again, Mr. Chairperson, the fiscal year is only started. We are not even finished with the first quarter yet. So, therefore, I think I will wait and see how the operation is doing at Falcon Lake and deal with it when the need arises. Mr.

Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Minister, you may or may not be aware, but drainage is a very, very important issue for the Lac du Bonnet constituency, the reason being that a lot of the water that flows from western Manitoba, southern Manitoba, including the United States, and from eastern Canada comes either directly through the constituency or it comes within very close proximity to that constituency. Compounded with that fact is the fact that we have five power dams on the Winnipeg River

11 40 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 2002 system. Because of the water being backed up behind those power dams, a lot of the land along the Winnipeg River system has had to have been- Mr. Cha irperson: Order, please. Excuse me. cannot hear the speaker too we ll, so let us keep our conversations down or go into the hall and carry on your conversation. Thank you. Mr.

Hawranik: Just getting on with the Winnipeg River system where all the Hydro dams are located, because of the Hydro dams and the backup of water along that system, much of the land has been diked to prevent the spread of water across a Jot of the land near the Winnipeg River. That, in itself, has compounded that prob lem. It has created a greater drainage problem than might normally exist. In fact, in the R.M. of Lac du Bonnet, most of the land along the Winnipeg River that is in the R.M. of Lac du Bonnet, in fact, has been diked.

This stopped the natural flow of water into the river and created a greater problem. Looking at the Estimates, I can not tell what money was allocated toward drainage maintenance of provincial drains. I know that, in the last 15 to 20 years, every year the provincial drains have been maintained to the extent of about $4 million �nnually, and I am wondering if you can tell me how much is allocated toward drainage maintenance of provincial drains across the province and how much is allocated toward drainage maintenance specifically within Lac du Bonnet constituency. * (16:10 ) Mr.

Lathlin: I thank the member for the question. Water is indeed a precious resource, sometimes have too much and sometimes have too little, and you use it for so many ways. In fact, without water we would not be here today. With respect to drainage, I really understand what the member is talking about. In order for me to get a good grasp of how serious the issue of drainage is, I made every effort to visit some communities. In fact, I think I have been in Lac du Bonnet three or four times. I have been to Brokenhead, the R.M. office there.

The civic leaders there were good enough to take me on a tour of some of the waterways there, provincial and municipal, and I agree with the member that there is a very serious deficit in the manner in which the drainage issue has been managed. I do not want to be negative, but Jet me tell the member for his own awareness, and perhaps he knows this, for the past 10, 12 years, there had been very little or in fact there was no increase. In fact, it went down, the budget that was allocated for drainage.

I remember sitting here last year or the year before that and again this year, and the Member for Lakeside telling me that natural resources took some pretty heavy budget cuts when he was on the Government side. That is true. As a result of that, provincial waterways, ditches, I have seen provincial waterways where there is actually trees growing right in the middle and a lot of vegetation. The ditches and the waterways were just not working. So finally, last year, we were able to put in an additional $1. 25 million to the Budget for drainage. It was not enough. It was just a small step.

Never theless, it was a step. There was nothing there before, and so many municipalities were appre ciative of whatever little additional money we were able to put in. I agree it is a deficit situation that I think no matter who is in government will not be able to bring it up to where it should be, because the deficit is too wide. But I can tell the member as well, before I break down the numbers, one of the reasons why we embarked on this water strategy initiative was to address some of those issues, allocation, drainage, so on and so forth.

The member was also asking me how much money we are allocating to capital and main tenance. Those numbers, I can go through here, for 2002-2903 the total provincial funding for drainage it says here: construction, new major upgrading, minor capital, it is $1. 7 million. That is capital construction, I guess. Secondly, maintenance, drainage, waterway maintenance, we have allocated $3. 4 million to that activity. There have been additional funds allocated to drainage, money that came from the REDI program through the Intergovernmental Affairs Department, an additional $250,000 for 2002- 2003.

So that gives us a total number of $5.38 million. That represents about $85 0,000 more than last year.

May 7, 2002 LEGlSLA TIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1141 Mr. Hawranik: Thank you for your comments, Mr. Minister, but of concern to me more so than the provincial maintenance budget is probably the maintenance budget for the eastern region, because, as I mentioned before, the fact of all that water flowing through the constituency certainly creates a drainage problem in and of itself.

I can tell you that the Rural Municipality of Lac du Bonnet, when 1 was campaigning in the by-election, was particularly concerned about maintenance because they in fact had mentioned that there was no maintenance to their provincial drain for the last 40 years. I do not mean to point fingers, and I am not pointing fingers here as to which government is responsible or which government is not responsible. My main concern is that a drainage problem that exists in the Rural Municipality of Lac du Bonnet be corrected.

Over the last few years the Manitoba Crop Insurance program paid out more money to farmers for insurance claims to crops that were flooded than in fact was spent on drainage maintenance for provincial drains in the constituency. That, to me, does not make a lot of sense. I think farn1ers need some answers, and they need some answers quickly. Fanners are under a lot of pressure. They do not have any controls over their input costs, nor do they have any controls over the price of the product that they sell, and they are being squeezed from both ends.

I think that the Government has to take some responsibility and has to increase that drainage budget more than just a million dollars, but has to probably increase the provincial maintenance drainage budget by double what it is today and allocate a significant portion of that to the eastern region, because the eastern region is probably the one that is hardest hit.

I would like to have your comments in that respect as to what you plan to do for the eastern region of the province, whether you intend to increase the budget substantially and to assu �e our municipalities that you are going to take some action. * (16:20) Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, well, 1 can <:er tainly appreciate the member's concern. When you are in government, of course you have to look at the total province and you have to allocate your budget in a very strategic way, and I believe that we have done that. The fact that there had been nothing done for 10, 12 years, I agree with the member.

You know, I do not want to go into who did not do what and so on and so forth. But I want the member to understand though that, you know, increase the Budget, increase the Budget. When you only have a certain amount of money in your budget, then the next thing you have to do is look at the priorities and spend your money in a very strategic way. That is what we are trying to do. As far as the breakdown of the Budget, I am sorry to tell the member that I do not have that breakdown with me right away. I think we are talking about the district office, because there is a district office in Lac du Bonnet.

It is not broken down, but we have the numbers for a district ex<:ept I do not have them here. I will endeavour to get the numbers for you for the district office in Lac du Bonnet. Mr. Enos: The minister indicated roughly, I believe a million-plus for capital projects in the overall $5-million water or drainage budget. Can the minister give ·the committee some idea of what specific projects, capital projects, this million dollars is going to be dedicated to? Mr. Lathlin: Mr.

Chairperson, yes, I can indicate to the member that for 2002-2003 the projects that we have targeted, one area is the waterway crossing program and that is not one waterway crossing. There are about 120 bridges that require replacement, and so this waterway crossing program is an ongoing program of bridge reconstruction and replacement with culverts. There is one. Then there is the south Buffalo channel drain, Netley Creek. It is in the R.M. of Rhineland and involves reconstruction of about 16 miles of the creek. That is two.

Then there is the third one, various other drainage projects, it says-[in terjection] I am sorry, Mr. Chairperson, let me go back and clarify. South Buffalo channel drain is separate from Netley Creek. Netley Cr eek is another project, so that will be the third one. Then there are various other drainage projects, No. 4. We are budgeting

11 42 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 7, 2002 about $500,000 there. Then the last one that I have on my list here is [interjection] Oh, there are culverts that we have to replace at Plum Creek, and those are the five projects. They total $1 .73 million. Mr. Enos: If the minister can just remind me, he indicated that this year's budget for the drainage problem was some several hundred thousand dollars in excess of last year's. Can he confinn that? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chair, the number I men tioned, total number that I mentioned was $5.38 million. That represents about $850,000 more than last year. Mr.

Enos: We11, Mr. Chairn1an, I now really duly have to congratulate the minister and his Government and his department. You know, partly because I am modest by nature and Christian by belief, I have acknowledged my past sins and omissions with respect to not allowing the necessary monies to be gone here.

The truth of the matter is that, even in those years that the minister likes to allude to in the House and publicly about, and honorable mem bers opposite, the member from the Interlake, nothing was done with respect to drainage for the last 12 years, in truth, we always had a $3- miilion budget, a $3-miilion budget plus. You are spending roughly a million, this year $85 0,000 more, and you have got the province convinced, you have got the municipalities convinced, you have got my new friend here from Lac du Bonnet convinced that this Government is charging out there and regressing 12 years of neglect.

You are going to clean up all of those bulrushes, all that vegetation ou

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-3-27
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 3rd hansardpdf 27.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	23d93af2eb99e2bcfbe3b5e46f5ed986396547ba

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