Manitoba Hansard — 15 August 2000 (Sitting 78, 37th Legislature, 1st Session)

37-1-78

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

First Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under tire authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. L No. 78 - I :30 p.m., 1\tesday, August 15, 2000 n r:;An?

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARRETT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUAY, Louise DERKACII, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCIIOU, David FILMON, Gary FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold IIELWER, Edward IIICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY,Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIIIYCIIUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, lion. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, lion. SMITH, Jo y SMITH, Scott STEFANSON, Eric STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Tuxedo Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Kirkfield Park Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

5065 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, August 15, 2000 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Bill12-The Public Schools Amendment Act Mr. Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Doris Dyck, Tony Dyck, Margaret Dyck and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Min ister of Education and Training (Mr. Caldwell) withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act. Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Cathie Van Benthem, Andrew Van Benthem, John Visser and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act. Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Tina Klassen, Helen Wolfe, Lisa Michnik and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act. Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): Mr.

Speaker, would you please canvass the House to see if there is leave to have me present the petition on behalf of the Honourable Member for Carman? Mr. Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed] Mrs. Dacquay: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I beg to present the petition, on behalf of the Honourable Member for Carman (Mr. Rocan), of Katharina Wiebe, Lisa Elias, Betty Elias and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Min ister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Anne Rempel, Sheryl Hinton, Llewellyn Peters and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act. Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Jim Michnik, Tina Michnik, Mike Contois and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amend ment Act. Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Alice Hordyk, Cornel Van Egmond, Mahendra Ramrattan and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Min ister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act. Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Lena Varao-Klippenstein, Winnie Chan, Bevan Klassen and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act. Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr.

Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Rosie Dueck, Doris Dueck, Marlene Dueck and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amend ment Act. Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr. Speaker, I would ask you to canvass the House to see if there is leave to allow me to present the petition on behalf of the Member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer).

5066 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 15, 2000 Mr. Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed] Mr. Maguire: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Larry Kornelson, David Klassen, Wesley Dueck and others praying that the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act. * (13:35) READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Bill12-The Public Schools Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Morris (Mr. Pitura), I have reviewed the petition. It complies with the rules and practices of the House.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [Agreed] The Clerk please read.

Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): To the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT home education is a viable alternative to public education; and THAT Bill 12 gives undefined powers to the Minister of Education which could adversely affect the rights of the family; and THAT the convictions of parents/guardians are not recognized and openly supported; and THAT the home-school organizations have not been consulted regarding the best method of facilitating the freedom and effectiveness of home-school families; and THAT new policies and regulations have already come into existence with the apparent anticipation of Bill 12 being passed, which home educators find to be intrusive and intimidating in nature and which potentially reduces the freedoms of home-school parents; and THAT Bill 12 fails to provide a mechanism of appeal for home-school families other than the courts.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach), I have reviewed the petition. It complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [Agreed] Will the Clerk please read.

Madam Clerk: To the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT home education is a viable alternative to public education; and THAT Bill 12 gives undefined powers to the Minister of Education which could adversely affect the rights of the family; and THAT the convictions of parents/guardians are not recognized and openly supported; and THAT the home-school organizations have not been consulted regarding the best method of facilitating the freedom and effectiveness of home-school families; and THAT new policies and regulations have already come into existence with the apparent antici pation of Bill 12 being passed, which home educators find to be intrusive and intimidating in nature and which potentially reduces the freedoms of home-school parents; and THAT Bill 12 fails to provide a mechanism of appeal for home-school families other than the courts.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act.

August 15, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5067 Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns), I have reviewed the petition. It complies with the rules and practices of the House.

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [Agreed] The Clerk please read. * (13:40) Madam Clerk: To the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT home education is a viable alternative to public education; and THAT Bill 12 gives undefined powers to the Minister of Education which could adversely affect the rights of the family; and THAT the convictions of parents/guardians are not recognized and openly supported; and THAT the home-school organizations have not been consulted regarding the best method of facilitating the freedom and effectiveness of home-school families; and THAT new policies and regulations have already come into existence with the apparent anticipation of Bill 12 being passed, which home educators find to be intrusive and intimidating in nature and which potentially reduces the freedoms of home-school parents; and THAT Bill 12 fails to provide a mechanism of appeal for home-school families other than the courts.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), I have reviewed the petition, and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT home education is a viable alternative to public education; and THAT Bill 12 gives undefined powers to the Minister of Education which could adversely affect the rights of the family; and THAT the convictions of parents/guardians are not recognized and openly supported; and THAT the home-school organizations have not been consulted regarding the best method of facilitating the freedom and effectiveness of home-schoolfamilies; and THAT new policies and regulations have already come into existence with the apparent anticipation of Bill 12 being passed, which home educators find to be intrusive and intimidating in nature and which potentially reduces the freedoms of home-school parents; and THAT Bill 12 fails to prov ide a mechanism of appeal for home-school families other than the courts.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembl y of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Am endment Act. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Steinbach (Mr. Jim Penner), I have reviewed the petition, and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT home education is a viable alternative to public education; and

5068 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 15, 2000 THAT Bill 12 gives undefined powers to the Minister of Education which could adversely affect the rights of the family; and THAT the convictions of parents/guardians are not recognized and openly supported; and THAT the home-school organizations have not been consulted regarding the best method of facilitating the freedom and effectiveness of home-school families; and THAT new policies and regulations have already come into existence with the apparent anticipation of Bill 12 being passed , which home educators find to be intrusive and intimidating in nature and which potentially reduces the freedoms of home-school parents; and THAT Bill 12 fails to provide a mechanism of appeal for home-school families other than the courts.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETffiONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembl y of Mcmitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public &hools Am endment Act. * (13:45) Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): Mr. Speaker, would you canvass the House to see if there is leave to read and receive this petition on behalf of the Honourable Member for Carman (Mr. Rocan). Mr. Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed] I have reviewed the petition, and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr.

Speaker: Dispense.

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT home education is a viable alternative to public education; and THAT Bill 12 gives undefined powers to the Minister of Education which could adversely affect the rights of the family; and THAT the convictions of parents/guardians are not recognized and openly supported; and THAT the home-school organizations have not been consulted regarding the best method of facilitating the freedom and effectiveness of home-school families; and THAT new policies and regulations have already come into existence with the apparent anticip ation of Bill 12 being passed, which home educators find to be intrusive and intimidating in nature and which potentially reduces the freedoms of home-school parents; and THAT Bill 12 fails to provi de a mechanism of appeal for home-school families other than the courts.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembl y of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Am endment Act. Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): I ask the Speaker to canvass the House in regard to allowing me to present the petition on behalf of the Member for Gimli (Mr. Helwer). Mr. Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed] I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT home education is a viable alternative to public education; and THAT Bill 12 gives undefined powers to the Minister of Education which could adversely affect the rights of the family; and

August 15, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5069 THAT the convictions of parents/guardians are not recognized and openly supported; and THAT the home-school organizations have not been consulted regarding the best method of facilitating the freedom and effectiveness of home-school families; and THAT new policies and regulations have already come into existence with the apparent anticipation of Bill 12 being passed, which home educators find to be intrusive and intimidating in nature and which potentially reduces the freedoms of home-school parents; and THAT Bill 12 fails to provide a mechanism of appeal for home-school families other than the courts.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembl y of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Am endment Act. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler), I have reviewed the petition, and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT home education is a viable alternative to public education; and THAT Bill 12 gives undefined powers to the Minister of Education which could adversely affect the rights of the family; and THAT the convictions of parents/guardians are not recognized and openly supported; and THAT the home-school organizations have not been consulted regarding the best method of facilitating the freedom and effectiveness of home-school families; and THAT new policies and regulations have already come into existence with the apparent anticipation of Bill 12 being passed, which home educators find to be intrusive and intimidating in nature and which potentially reduces the freedoms of home-school parents; and THAT Bill 12 fails to provide a mechanism of appeal for home-school families other than the courts.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETIT IONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembl y of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Am endment Act. * (13:50) Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Faurschou), I have reviewed the petition, and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

The petition of the und ersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT home education is a viable alternative to public education; and THAT Bill 12 gives undefined powers to the Minister of Education which could adversely affect the rights of the family; and THAT the convictions of parents /guardians are not recognized and openl y supported; and THAT the home-school organizations have not been consulted regarding the best method of facilitating the freedom and effectiveness of home-school families; and THAT new policies and regulations have already come into existence with the apparent anticipation of Bill 12 being passed, which home educators find to be intrusive and intimidating in

5070 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 15, 2000 nature and which potentially reduces the freedoms of home-school parents; and THAT Bill 12 fails to provide a mechanism of appeal for home-school families other than the courts. WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembl y of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amend ment Act. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you might canvass the House to see if there is leave for me to present on behalf of the Honourable Member for Emerson (Mr. Jack Penner).

Mr. Speaker: Is there leave? [Agreed] I have reviewed the petition and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? An Honourable Member: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Clerk, please read.

Madam Clerk: To the Legislature of the Province of Manitoba: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth: THAT home education is a viable alternative to public education; and THAT Bill 12 gives undefined powers to the Minister of Education which could adversely affect the rights of the family; and THAT the convictions of parents/guardians are not recognized and openly supported; and THAT the home-school organizations have not been consulted regarding the best method of facilitating the freedom and effectiveness of home-school families; and THAT new policies and regulations have already come into existence with the apparent anticipation of Bill 12 being passed, which home educators find to be intrusive and intimidating in nature and which potentially reduces the freedoms of home-school parents; and THAT Bill 12 fails to provide a mechanism of appeal for home-school families other than the courts.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Education and Training withdraw Bill 12, The Public Schools Amendment Act. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs Second Report Ms. Marianne Cerilli (Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Second Report of the Committee on Municipal Affairs. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Your Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs presents the following- An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

Your Standing Committee on Municipal Affairs presents the following as its Second Report. Your committee met on Monday, August 14, 2000, at 10 a.m., in Room 255 of the Legislative Building to consider the Consolidated Financial Statements of North Portage Development Corporation-operating as The Forks North Portage Partnership-for the years ended March 31, 1999, and March 31, 2000. Mr. Jim Au gust, Chief Executive Officer, and Mr. Bill Norrie, Chairperson of the Board, and Mr.

Paul Webster, Chief Financial Officer, prov ided such information as was requested by members of the Committee with respect to the Consolidated Financial Statements of North Portage Development Corporation-operating as The Forks North Portage Partnership.

August 15, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 507 1 Your committee reports that it has considered the Consolidated Financial Statements of North Portage Development Corporation-operating as The Forks North Portage PartnershiJrfor the years ended March 31, 1999, and March 31, 2000. Ms. Cerilli: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Brandon West (Mr. Smith), that the report of the Committee be received. Motion agreed to. * (13:55) Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us today a group representing the home schoolers of Manitoba. This group is the guest of the Honourable Member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Health Care System Bed Availability-Obstetrics Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, there is a severe maternity care crisis in Winnipeg due to shortages at the St. Boniface Hospital and the Health Sciences Centre. All postpartum beds at St.

B and Health Sciences are full. The neonatal and intensive care units cannot accept babies in distress, and the Health Sciences Centre is not accepting any low-risk deliveries. This is, and I quote obstetrician Dr. Denise Black saying, a tragedy waiting to happen. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Health if he is aware that there are 12 moms being put at risk because they need to be induced and they cannot be brought into the Health Sciences Centre or St. Boniface Hospital because there are no postpartum beds available at these hospitals. Where are these moms supposed to go? Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I thank the Member for raising that question, and I will address that issue in terms of providing the beds. As I pointed out to the Member during Estimates, it was unfortunate, when the previous government two years ago authorized additional beds at both St. Boniface and the Health Sciences Centre, they did so without money. This year, we not only funded and authorized the opening of additional beds in the maternity ward at the Health Sciences Centre to happen in the fall, but we are also putting in place additional beds at St. Boniface Hospital.

While there might be a problem today, which we are going to look into, Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased that we have taken action and put actual money and resources in place to address this in the future, something that was not done in the past. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I wonder, then, if the Minister of Health can explain why at the end of June the 17-bed LDRP unit at the Health Sciences Centre was closed after it had been operating for 2 months. All they were looking for was $300,000. That unit was closed, and if those beds were open right now, today, this crisis in Manitoba would not exist.

Could he please tell us what he is going to do about it because those 12 moms could fit into those 17 beds? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I indicated to the Member when she raised this question three weeks ago on several occasions during the course of Estimates debate, the previous government authorized additional beds at the Health Sciences Centre and St. Boniface Hospital with no money attached. We put into- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh.

5072 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 15, 2000 Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, in the Budget that was presented by this government which members opposite opposed and voted against, we put in funding for the opening of the beds at the Health Sciences Centre, something that had not been done, and as well we announced in the capital plan additional plans for beds that had been promised in 1992 to St. Boniface for LDRP beds. Mrs.

Driedger: I wonder if the Minister of Health could address this crisis now before tragedy strikes due to his government's mismanagement, because it was his government that closed these 17 beds. They were open for 2 months. Why did they close the beds? Mr. Chomiak: It is a good deal ironic, Mr. Speaker, that members opposite who precipi tated the worst nursing crisis in the province of Manitoba, firing a thousand nurses, who refused to- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, Beauchesne's Citation 417: "Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and should not provoke debate." Mr. Speaker, the question that was asked is about the crisis that is today, the crisis that this Minister created by closing those 17 beds. That is the answer that we are searching for. Why is he putting these mothers in danger? Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, it is interesting that the House Leader should say "that is the answer that we are searching for," precipitating and in fact pre-supposing a response to a question. Mr. Speaker, on the response to the question that was raised three weeks ago in this Legislature, and as I pointed out previously with respect to that, there are nursing shortages that are the precipitator of this difficulty, and members opposite ought to accept responsibility for that. Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Member for Charleswood, on the same point of order, with new information. * (14:00) Mrs.

Driedger: On that same point of order with new information, Mr. Speaker, this issue is not about a nursing shortage. The nurses are there, and they are trained. This is about a bed closure by this Minister. The nurses are there. They were there working in the 17 beds. Mr. Speaker: Order. On the point of order raised by the Honourable Official Opposition House Leader, it is not a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, when members opposite were government, they closed 1400 beds permanently. This summer, there have been summer bed closures just like every other year.

Every time there is a summer bed closure this year, all of a sudden members stand up and try to make some kind of a claim like it was in the previous years when beds were closed permanently. A number of beds have been closed for the summer like last year, in the same levels they were last year, and members stood up and said "Treherne" when it was a two-week bed closure. I think members ought to get it correct. We are doing everything we can with respect to the situation. It is obviously of concern.

We funded this program for the fall, and there will be beds and resources in place from this government as opposed to the record of the previous government. Health Care System Bed Availability-Obstetrics Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, we have seen time and time again this Minister of Health try to lay blame on someone else for the issues

August 15, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5073 and the responsibilities that he has. We heard very clearly at committee this morning on Bill 44 that when someone does not have a justification for the argument they are trying to make, they blame someone else and think that is the approach they can take rather than taking responsibility for their actions. This Minister of Health promised Manitobans during the election campaign that all they had to do was elect him and he would fix everything. Well, Mr.

Speaker, there are 12 moms waiting today in a situation that is unacceptable because of this minister and his government. It is time that he stood up and took responsibility, showed some leadership and indicated what he was going to do to fix the situation. Mr. Speaker, my question for the Minister of Health is: Why did he close the 17 beds that were open and put these moms at risk? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, we not only included in this year's budget funding for the LDRP beds at Health Sciences Centre, something that had not been done for two years, but we went ahead on a proposal that was put forward in 1992 to provide similar kinds of beds at St. Boniface Hospital, and we funded that in this year's budget as well. Not only is the Member wrong, but they are attempting to cover up for their own inadequacies in the system. The system is not perfect, but we have put more resources into the system than were done any time during the I 0- year period when that member sat around the Cabinet table and said nothing.

Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, but, again, it is clear that this minister accepts no responsibility for the position that he holds around the Cabinet table of that NDP Government. My direct question to the Minister of Health is: Why did he close the 17 beds at Health Sciences Centre that were fully staffed? Why did he close those beds and put these 12 moms at risk? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the WRHA will open eight rooms in September 2000 and seventeen will be opened by October 2000.

Funding of $300,000 was approved for the costs of opening the program, something that was not provided for when that program was announced by the previous government. No funding was provided under the previous government in this regard. This is in the Budget, and it is real in the Budget. Mr. Speaker, I might add that bed closures this summer are part of a similar pattern that occurred every year. Would we have liked to have opened more beds?

Yes, but we are dealing with a nursing shortage that was created for the past decade, and I wish members opposite would support our nursing program so we could move forward on nursing, rather than opposing the nursing program at every step of the way. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, and again, that is very small comfort to the moms that are being put at risk by this minister and his government. My very direct question to the Minister of Health is: Those beds were opened in May and June of this year. He closed them and he moved the beds out of those rooms.

Will the Minister of Health now stand up, take some responsibility and fix the problem, open those beds that he closed so that those moms can receive the care that they deserve? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, as I indicated to the Member opposite during the course of Estimates, we will look at that situation with respect to the bed need. Secondly, I indicated for the first time in a decade there is actually more money in the Budget to open beds, something that is very novel to members opposite. There is actually money in the Budget to open beds, as opposed to closing 1400 permanently when they were in government.

We are actually expanding programs and providing services. Unfortunately, because of the nursing shortages and other professionals in this jurisdiction, we are having trouble staffing some of these situations, but we put resources into the beds to be available to fund the beds. I know it is novel for members opposite who are used to cutting beds, but there is money in the Budget, and there are resources available with respect to those beds. Health Care System Bed Availability-Obstetrics Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Well, if the Minister has indicated that there is money,

5074 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 15, 2000 that they are willing to address this situation, because it is not related to a nursing shortage, this is related to a bed closure by his government, and if he is indicating that there is money, if this unit was operating in May and June, why did he close these 17 beds? It is his decision, and we have moms needing to come into beds in this city because every postpartum bed in the two major hospitals that treat high risk moms are full, and it can be eased if he would open this unit. Would he be prepared to open that unit today? Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): As I indicated in my previous responses, and I know it is a novel concept if members would just pay attention to this, there is money in this year's budget, as I indicated during the Estimates process. If it is possible to immediately move on that, we will move on that as we have done in every other area of health care, like when there were long waiting lists, we sent people to the United States, like when there are people in the hallways, we put in resources, like when we expanded dialysis in opening additional dialysis units. We will respond.

The resources are available, and if the beds can be moved forward and opened quicker, if it is necessary, we will do that. We will take that action. Mrs. Driedger: I would like to ask the Minister why it has taken him a month to address this issue. This issue has been brewing out there for a month. He has had a lot of time to address it, and I brought it up. Will he address it now that he has wasted a month and he could have prevented this? Mr. Chomiak: This issue was first addressed in this year's budget when we actually-! know it is novel to members opposite-put money in the Budget to open these beds this year.

Now this item first went to the members opposite's Treasury Board in 1998, and there was no money in the Budget to do this. We put money in this year's budget, recognizing and planning to open them in September and October. If it is necessary to move it up, if the resource is in place, that will take place. But I want members opposite to be assured the resources are in place, as opposed to the bad old days of this jurisdiction when there was no money and no beds, and it was a straight no from the government. Mrs.

Driedger: I would like to ask the Minister of Health: Where are mothers, this evening, supposed to go if they are going to be delivering a baby because the labour and delivery unit at St. Boniface is full? They cannot accept any into labour and delivery at Health Sciences Centre. Where are these mothers to go tonight if they have to have a baby delivered? To the United States? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: May I remind the Honourable Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau) and the Honourable Member for Interlake (Mr.

Nevakshonoft), Beauchesne's Citation 168: "When rising to preserve order or to give a ruling the Speaker must always be heard in silence." I would ask their co-operation. Mr. Chomiak: Again, I know it is novel for members opposite, but we have put money in this year's budget. If those beds can be opened sooner, those beds will be opened sooner. And if there are any resources that we can put in place to deal with that situation, we will do that. We will address the issue and try to come to grips with it.

But I want members opposite to know that not only did we put money in this year's budget for that, not only did we plan for it, we also put into capital plan LDRP beds for St. Boniface Hospital, something that had been recommended since 1992, Mr. Speaker, since 1992, and we put it in this year's capital plan to do that. So we will attempt to address those issues, and when there are problems that arise we want to try to solve them, not deny that they exist. Labour Relations Act Amendments-Secret Ballots Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr.

Speaker, we know that intrinsic to any democracy is the right to vote, a private vote. Indeed, this Premier (Mr. Doer) has said the fundamental aims of the labour movement remain to ensure that

August 15, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5075 democratic rights of workers are respected and exercised to the fullest. He has also said: The last time I looked the most democratic process for consulting people was an election. Does the Minister of Labour agree with her leader that employees should be able to exercise their democratic right to the fullest through a private vote? Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, I agree with the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr.

Praznik), the former Minister of Labour, who stated in the House in Hansard on May 13, 1992: We accepted the argument- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms. Barrett: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I agree with the Member for Lac du Bonnet, the former Minister of Labour, who stated in Hansard on May 13, 1992, that the government of the day-of which he was a representative, but he was speaking for the government of the day-and I quote: Accepted the argument that was made by labour that where you have 70 percent-plus, 65 percent-plus of people who have signed cards, that that truly is representative of the majority. He then urged all members of the Legislature to go back to first principles, which is to determine the will of the majority. * (14: 10) Mr. Loewen: Mr.

Speaker, given all of the labour and election legislation changes this government is proposing, will the Premier confirm whether he still supports the democratic right to a secret ballot in elections? This is a right he is taking away from employees. Who is next? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Well, Mr. Speaker, we will find out when the Chief Electoral Officer reports who follows the law of the land and who does not. We have already seen the results of a 1995 election inquiry, one Justice Monnin.

I would point out that Justice Monnin has not only spoken about the lack of ethics of members opposite, but Justice Monnin was part of a- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Justices Monnin, Huband and Twaddle dealt with the issue of certification and talked about the need for employees to minimize pitfalls. Legislatures have enacted laws to speed up certification process, and he goes on to say in ruling against Mr. Tucker, who was represented by Mr. Green, that this is certainly appropriate in a democracy. Amendments--Consultations Mr.

John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, will the Premier, who refused to raise the issue of eliminating the secret ballot during his Century economic summit, commit to the Manitoba Business Council's proposal and postpone the three contentious areas of Bill 44 dealing with the democratic right to vote, binding arbitration and picket line violence, until a proper consultation, that includes business, occurs? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the proper consultation is occurring as we speak.

I understand there were a number of well-thought out presentations being made by many Manitobans last night and this morning. Very intelligent presentations were being made to the Committee. I know this is the withdrawal party. Whenever they cannot come to any conclusion about where they are going to go, banning union and corporate donations, withdraw the Bill; dealing with other issues of home schooling, withdraw the Bill; withdraw this bill, withdraw that bill. Why not listen to Manitobans in committee and make the appropriate changes on behalf of all Manitobans. That is what we are going to do.

Labour Relations Act Amendments--Consultations Mr. Harry Enos (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, this question is prompted by the front-page story in the Free Press a few days ago featuring none other than our Premier and his indication that he was in fact listening to the concerns that were

5076 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 15, 2000 being expressed about the labour legislation passed. The Premier referred to the numerous presentations that we received last night, a very eloquent one from Mr. Green that the Premier mentioned. My question to the Premier is: Was he just fooling the business community about his seriousness about actually listening and perhaps accepting some changes? Are there any fundamental changes, notably the three amendments that my colleague just asked for that is the big concern of business? Are they in any way being dealt with by this government? Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Member may recall yesterday that the Minister of Labour (Ms. Barrett) indicated that one of the concerns about a balance becoming a tilt was the issue of the second vote. The Minister of Labour indicated that she has positive ideas and amendments on that issue. Mr. Speaker, we certainly would note that yesterday in an interview an individual from the school of management said that the "legislation is," and I want to make sure it is-"a pretty mild bill." Mr. Speaker, that is an individual, Mr. Godard, from the Faculty of Business Administration at the University of Manitoba.

Having said that, we are still listening to Manitobans. There are still ideas being proposed, and particularly there is a fair amount of consensus about the seven or eight amendments that have arrived in this bill. There are some concerns that we did not go far enough here or we went too far there. I think all in all our goal is to have a growing economy, which we have right now, we have had since we have been elected, and we have had since this bill has been announced.

Our goal is to make sure that average families in Manitoba enjoy some of the fruits of their labour in this province and are able to raise their kids and have their kids stay in Manitoba with opportunities. Labour Relations Act Amendments-Short-Line Railways Mr. Harry Enos (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, a new question addressed to the Minister responsible for economic development. Yester day at committee, we heard representations on another bill, Bill 18, from a Mr. Peters who runs successfully several short-line railways in Manitoba and from representatives of the Seagram's company in Gimli. Mr.

Peters, who has experience in setting up short lines, indicated Bill 18 would inhibit the further development of short lines. Should that short-line railway that serves the Seagram's plant, that consumes 68 000 tons of grain annually, has there been any thought given, any studies taken, to the position that that plant may be in should that plant, its continued existence, be jeopardized if in fact that piece of track should be destined for a short-line operation, which with Bill 18, we are being told by those who run short lines, makes it not possible to set up more short lines in Manitoba? Hon.

MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines): It is clear that short lines have a role in Manitoba, and we are very proud of the success story, that OmniTRAX has been able to succeed. The concerns raised by the short -line operator that presented yesterday have been taken very seriously, and there has been con sultation with the Department and legal counsel. I know that several different organizations have had opinions on the impact of the legislation.

We are fairly confident that the short-line industry in Manitoba will expand, that the Seagram plant will be successful, and if there are options that we heard hinted of yesterday, will be able to proceed, and this bill will not harm or hamper the short-line industry. Mr. Enos: It is just amazing, Mr. Speaker- An Honourable Member: Question. Mr. Enos: Okay, the question.

Will the Min ister not agree, because I believe she was at committee yesterday, we heard from the representatives representing the national association of some 48 short-line railways across the country, and we heard from one of Manitoba's more successful short-line operators, Mr. Peters, who said that Bill 18-

August 15, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5077 Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Govern ment House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): On a point of order, we were trying to assist the Honourable Member in moving towards a question. Mr. Speaker, would you please ask him if he has a supplem entary question. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Lakeside, on the same point of order? Mr. Enns: No. I accept the admonition from the Government House Leader. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the Government House Leader, Beauchesne's Citation 409(2}-[interjection] I have to deal with the point of order first before I can recognize the Honourable Member. Beauchesne's Citation 409(2) advises that a supplementary question should not require a

preamble. *** Mr. Speaker: I would ask the Honourable Member to please put his question. Mr. Enns: Will the Minister not concur that from those people who run short-line railways in Canada, the presentations made yesterday to the Committee were that Bill 18 would make that more difficult, would inhibit the further development of short-line railways in Manitoba? Ms. Mihychuk: I did have an opportunity to listen very closely to the presentations from the short-line industry, both from the national organization, from the presentation of a Manitoba operator.

It is important also to note that there was a successor rights' provision in B.C., that the case went to the Labour Board where a comparison between the class one rail operators was compared with the short lines. The ruling of the Labour Board indicated that successor rights in this case would not apply because the two operations were significantly diff erent. We have considerable confidence that the successor rights' legislation will not hamper our short-line rail industry. Sustainable Development Act Procurement Guidelines-Consultations Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, both the Premier and the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin) have indicated that they are planning to present the Government's procurement policy in September to meet, in a belated fashion, the requirements of The Sustainable Development Act,

an act which mandates extensive involvement of all departments in the development of the policy. Since the Government's procurement policy may be one of the most important ways that the Government interacts with businesses and supports businesses in Manitoba through course of fair process, I ask the Premier whether he has learned from his experience with recent labour legislation and whether he is going to undertake extensive consultations with Manitoba busi nesses before he presents his new procurement policies. Hon.

Gary Doer (Premier): I certainly will not learn from the activity of the Member opposite when he was a member of the federal government and the results of his stewardship and the Cabinet stewardship in the situation in Canada dealing with the environment. This is an individual who has asked a lot of questions in feigned interest in the environment, but the Government of Canada has just received a D rating from the Sierra Club of Canada dealing with the environment, dealing with setting aside endangered spaces, dealing with many of the issues of the ozone layer.

Some of the issues that the Sierra Club deals with go directly back to the '95-96 budgets of the federal government, where hundreds of millions of dollars were cut out of the environment department of Canada, and the opportunity to take a leadership role and a stewardship role in Canada was fumbled by members opposite, Mr. Speaker. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

5078 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA August 15, 2000 * (14:20) Mr. Gerrard: The Minister seems to circum vent the real answer. Mr. Speaker, my supplementary to the Minister of Industry. As a run up to the September announcements of the government's procurement policies, what consultations, I ask the Minister, is she going to do with respect to procurement policies for business and, in particular, not just environmental but information technology businesses, policies which are vital for the support and the development ofthese industries in Manitoba? Hon.

MaryAnn Mihychuk (Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines): Mr. Speaker, the mandate of procurement is actually under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Highways and Government Services (Mr. Ashton). However, I can tell you that during the Century Summit this was an issue raised by many businesses in Manitoba, both from urban businesses and rural businesses. It is a commitment that we made in the election, and we are moving towards fulfilling all of our election promises. Mr. Gerrard: I thank the Minister for the commitment. I ask my last supplementary to the Minister of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs (Mr.

Robinson). What ef forts is he making, before the September announcement, to ensure widespread consultation in relation to procurement policy development in order to facilitate the growth of aboriginal businesses in Manitoba? Ms. Mihychuk: Mr. Speaker, we have had an opportunity to deal with the traditional chambers, as well as the aboriginal business leaders organization, as well as aboriginal-well, I know that the Member for Tuxedo is heckling that this is the lunatic fringe organization. I do not think so. I think that the economic development and business climate of Aboriginal people is very important.

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Gary Filmon (Tuxedo): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I know that the Min ister would not want to have incorrect information on the record. I just want to assure her that I was repeating the quote of her good friend Rob Hilliard, the head of the Manitoba Federation of Labour, who called those very groups that she is referring to, the Chambers of Commerce, as the lunatic fringe in this province. I know that she would not want to put incorrect information on the record. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised by the Honourable Member for Tuxedo, it is not a point of order. It is a dispute over the facts. Labour Relations Act Amendments-Secret Ballots Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, we now have examples of union drives that failed when put to the test of a secret ballot. In one case, a union managed to get 67 percent of the workers to sign cards, but received only 47 percent when it went to a secret ballot. This, once again, clearly proves the Minister of Labour is wrong, and I thank her for admitting it on CJOB.

Can the Minister confirm that there are in fact multiple instances of 65% sign-up and certification subsequently being turned down by secret ballot? Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): Mr. Speaker, the Labour Board has informed me that there were several instances, I believe approxi mately five in number. The details of those instances are not releasable by-[interjection} Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms. Barrett: Mr.

Speaker, the Labour Board is not able to provide specific details because of confidentiality, but my understanding is that these instances were instances of groupings where there were a very small number of workers involved and-[interjection} Mr. Speaker: Order.

August 15 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5079 Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, we are returning to a situation in Manitoba that was-[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms. Barrett: We are ret urning back to a situation-[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, I will try once more to get my answer through, and if the Member for Lakeside, who was not very polite this morning in committee hearings when he was reading the newspaper when people were making presentations-he may be the dean in this House, but as dean he has a certain degree of responsibility, as we all do. Point of Order Mr.

Harry Enns (Lakeside): I resent that implication on the part of the Min ister. What I was doing was research in ensuring that the members of the fifth estate were accurately reporting the goings-on of last night which was a very important committee meeting. It was important to know who was calling me ignorant. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the Honourable Member for Lakeside, I would have to say it is a dispute over the facts. *** Mr. Schuler: Mr.

Speaker, I ask the Minister if she can now confirm for this House that she actually left wrong information on the record when she said some time ago that there was never an instance where there was 65% sign-up and then did not make it when it went to a secret ballot? This seems to be a common occurrence with this minister. Can she please clear the record and tell this House that she left the wrong information on the record? Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, as I have stated on the radio this morning, yes, the information that I put on the record originally was inaccurate, and I have corrected that information.

I apologized on the radio this morning, and I am more than happy to, unlike some members opposite who refuse to acknowledge when they have made mistakes many, many, many more egregious than the error that I have made, I have the privilege of making that statement in the House today. Mr. Schuler: Mr.

Speaker, then I was wondering if the Min ister of Labour would agree with a quote made by the MLA for Wellington in 19 96: " ... there should be no question about the absolute importance that we must maintain the integrity of the concepts of democracy." Does the now Labour Min ister agree with the previous member for Wellington that the secret ballot was important then as it is important now? Ms. Barrett: Obviously, the current Member for Inkster agrees with the comments made by the former member for Wellington, who happen to be one and the same individual. Mr.

Speaker, the concepts of democracy are very important. I would like to quote from Professor Paul Weiler in his book Reconcilable Differences-this was in committee this morning commenting on the choice of accepting member ship evidence of a certification application versus ordering votes in all cases. The fact is that a trade union does not have governmental authority over the unit of employees. The trade union gets a piece of paper, a licence to bargain on their behalf , which is by no means a key to the vault.

It is not making a momentous choice, one which should be carefully hedged with ceremonious trappings such as a voting booth. Might I add that in cases where a union is certified and then after a period of time or any period of time chooses to decertify, it is much easier actually to decertify than to certify. It only requires 50 percent plus 1. * (14: 30) Labour Relations Act Amendments-Impact on Business Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr.

Speaker, the Business Council of Manitoba last night in committee stated, and I quote: Quite apart from the serious reservations over the substance of Bill 44, we want to comment on

5080 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 15 , 2000 process. There was no mention of significant changes in the New Democrat's campaign platform, not even a passing reference in the Throne Speech, no hint through ministerial speeches, no reference to the Labour Management Review Committee. To the Min ister of Labour: Why does she continue to try to pull the wool over the public's eyes when she talks about her surprise that over 18 5 000 businesses in Canada are opposed to the radical changes that she is bringing forward in Bill 44? Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour): Mr.

Speaker, in 19 96 we voted against Bill 26, made statements in the House at that time that we in government would not have put in those amendments. I think that is a very clear statement. The Premier (Mr. Doer) mentioned in Question Period earlier today that a member of the faculty of management at the University of Manitoba, a faculty that is not always noted for its left-wing comments, stated that certification votes were acceptable and that this legislation brought in was not at all extreme. We have consulted. We consulted before the Bifl was brought in. We have consulted afterwards. We are listening now.

We are participating in the democratic process. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Labour Relations Act Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, I rise today as a member of the Legislature representing an industrious constituency, as a businessperson in this province and also as a concerned citizen. Yesterday and today, we have had upset citizens representing a number of groups coming to the Manitoba Legislature in an attempt, some would say a last-ditch attempt, to have this government kill Bill 44 and ensure that labour peace and prosperity remain in Manitoba.

I have spoken in this House before on this issue, and I do so again today in the hopes that something that has been said in committee hearings or in Question Period has shaken this government from its current unpopular and short-sighted labour bill. As an employer past and present, I want to tell members that the best workplace environment is one in which both the employers and the employees feel that they are working together and not against each other.

The best production in any business comes from those in which the employees feel that they are working together with management as a team and that the success of the company enhances their own personal success and advancement. It is in that environment that the best wages can be paid as well. Mr. Speaker, this is the type of business I have tried to run and produce and, without reservation, it is the type of business the vast majority of Manitoba businesspeople try to run. Yet, in just 10 months, Today's NDP has created a battlefield for labour and management.

They have created more mistrust and anxiety between management and labour groups than has existed since Howard Pawley warmed the Premier's chair. Today's NDP has moved quickly to cause unrest in labour relations in Manitoba and has gambled with the prosperity of the province that was won on such a difficult basis in the last years. As a member of the Conservative caucus, I am proud to stand in defence of the democratic rights of workers, the progression of business, and the opportunities for employment of our young people. I implore members opposite to give up the ghost of Howard Pawley and kill Bill 44.

Doni-Vital Black Sox Ms. Linda Asper (Riel): Mr. Speaker, it gives me great pleasure to announce that the Bani Vital Black Sox are Manitoba's Provincial Peewee A baseball champions. They defeated North Winnipeg on Sunday, August 6, to lay claim to the title. This is a first for the team. The Boni-Vital Black Sox team is made up of 12 - and 13 -year-old boys from St. Vital and St. Bonif ace communities. These young people will represent Manitoba at the national championships to be held in Summerside, Prince

August 15 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 508 1 Edward Island, from August 24 through August 28, 2000. The players are extremely excited to represent our province in the championships, having played 44 games this year. In preparation for their trip, the team members are trying to raise money to defray their expenses. Under the capable leadership of Craig Hornby, their manager, the young people are canvassing local businesses, organizations, and individuals for financial assistance to participate in the national tournament. You will meet them this Friday and Saturday at various locations on their tag days.

As is the custom, the players and their coaches, AI White and Wayne Macauly, will exchange pins with the other teams at the beginning of each game, only one of the many exciting experiences awaiting them in P.E.I. Congratulations to the Boni-Vital Black Sox and good luck in the national champion ships. Thank you to their parents for all their hard work, to the coaches, manager, and volunteers who work with the team. We wish you all well in the championships. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Labour Relations Act Mr. Harry Enns (Lakeside): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to, in a few minutes, acknowledge and to comment on the very serious discussions that are taking place in Manitoba and in this Chamber here in this Legislative Chamber and in the Committee room with respect to the labour situation in Manitoba. I genuinely regret the kind of climate that is developing, the kind of rhetoric that is being exercised. I must say it is coming from one side. It is coming from the labour side. That is to be regretted. That is not to say that business and others are not expressing their deep, deep concerns about what this Min ister of Labour (Ms.

Barrett) and what this government is proposing. That is fair game in our democratic society. But nobody on the management side, nobody certainly from the Opposition side, is personalizing the differences of opinion in the manner and way which has been publicly stated by the President of the Manitoba Federation of Labour describing any and all who oppose Bi11 44 as being lunatics, as being crazy, as being nuts. Mr. Speaker, it does not augur well for the future of labour relations in the province of Manitoba, and it does not, in the long run, act in the interests of the working people of Manitoba.

Honourable members in committee last night heard from a former colleague of theirs, a man well versed in labour legislation, the Honourable Sidney Green, whom I had the pleasure of serving with in this House. Mr. Green, although dismissed from his party that he had served for many years for holding these views, believed, in stark and simple terms, in the importance of freedom and principles, which we are violating with Bill 44. Manitoba Derby Mr. Jim Rondeau (Assiniboia): Good day, Mr. Speaker. I rise today to highlight a number of activities that have taken place in Assiniboia recently.

The first event is the 52nd Annual Manitoba Derby. I had the pleasure of presenting the $1 00,000 first prize to Gordon Wilson, the owner of Scotman from Alberta. It was really an excellent race. It was very exciting, with a number of horses in contention. Breaker Breaker, the underdog, made a late charge and almost created an upset. That is a $1 00,000 horse basically competing against a $1 ,500 horse. It was a great afternoon of entertainment and it was a great pleasure. I had the pleasure of meeting a number of people who travelled to this event from all over North America.

They all commented very positively on the hospitality of the people at the Downs. With 5356 people in attendance, including a number of out-of-town guests, it was an excellent attraction, which provides many jobs and spinoffs within the province. My congratulations to General Manager Sharon Gulyas and all her staff who always go that extra mile to ensure their guests have a great time and ensure Manitoba continues to build as a tourist destination. The second activity I had the pleasure of participating in was the Grand Marnier Equestrian Competition put on the by the Red River Exhibition.

This event involved some of

5082 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 15 , 2000 the best jumping I have ever seen. I would like to compliment the Red River Ex board and their staff on their efforts in branching out to new activities and broadening the use of the site. With only 80 out of 480 acres now developed at the Red River site, we can all continue to look forward to exciting new future attractions at the Red River Ex site. Congratulations. I invite everyone down to Assiniboia to see the new attractions that are being formed. Thank you. Manitoba Summer Games Mr.

Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): It gives me pleasure to rise today to congratulate all the participants and volunteers at last week's 2000 MTS Manitoba Summer Games held in Virden. I had the pleasure to bring greetings at the closing ceremonies on Sunday, August 13. Over 11 00 volunteers in the Virden area came together last week to host a wonderful event with the support from venues in Oak Lake and Brandon. Over a thousand athletes participated in the Games. Special congratu lations to the Winnipeg Region who came away from the competition as the winners.

Also the Eastman Region received the Most Spirited Award, while the Parkland and Westman tied for the Most Improved Teams. This tie between two regions has never occurred before, and so special congratulations to them. * (1 4:40) Mr. Speaker, the energy that was demon strated by the athletes, coaches, parents and volunteers at these games was outstanding. Everyone had a wonderful time in the Virden area. Co-chairs Richard Ward and Craig Russell and their Virden Host Society are to be held up as a magnificent example of volunteerism at its best. Mr.

Speaker, I do want to make a special mention about the Westman Team in the competition of the 10 0 metre individual medley in swimming. Tamara McLennan of Virden received gold; my cousin Kristen Nelson of Neepawa received silver; and Colleen Cosgrove of Virden received bronze. Westman took all the medals in this event and congratulations to them. Mr. Speaker, sport is a vital part of the academic and well-being of human society. These games exemplifY team spirit, co-operation and overall personal development.

I encourage this government to support the sporting community in Manitoba in their efforts to maintain a healthy youthful population. Mr. Speaker, again I want to congratulate all the athletes, officials, coaches, parents and volunteers who made the 2000 MTS Manitoba Summer Games an overwhelming success. Thank you. Committee Change Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): I move, seconded by the Member for Wellington (Mr. Santos), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Industrial Relations be amended as follows: Fort Rouge (Mr. Sale) for Rupertsland (Mr. Robinson). Motion agreed to. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you please call report stage. REPORT STAGE Bill 4- The Elections Finances Amendment Act Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I move, seconded by the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell), that Bill 4, The Elections Finances Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur le financement des campagnes electorates, as amended and reported from the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections, be concurred in. Motion presented. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? Some Honourable Members: Question. Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is Bill 4, The Elections Finances Amendment Act,

August 15 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5083 as amended. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Some Honourable Members: No. Voice Vote Mr. Speaker: All those in favour, say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed, say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Speaker: I believe the Yeas have it. On division. Bill 7-The Protection for Persons in Care Act Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Mackintosh), THAT Bill 7 be amended in clause 12 (1 )(

a) by striking out "$ 1 0,000." and substituting "$2,000 ." Motion presented. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is the amendment: THAT Bill 7 be amended in clause 12 (1 )(

a) by striking out "$1 0,000." and substituting "$2,000." Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for La Verendrye (Mr. Lemieux), THAT Bill 7 be amended by adding the following after subsection 12 (1): Offence of making a false report 12 (1.1 ) A person who makes a report of abuse under this Act, knowing it to be false, is guilty of an offence and is liable on

summary conviction to a fine of not more than $2,000. Motion presented. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is: THAT Bill 7 be amended by adding the following after subsection 12 (1): Offence of making a false report- An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. 12

(1.1) A person who makes a report of abuse under this Act, knowing it to be false, is guilty of an offence and is liable on

summary conviction to a fine of not more than $2,000. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Aff airs, that Bill 7, The Protection for Persons in Care Act;

Loi sur la protection des personnes recevant des soins, reported from the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources and subsequently amended, be concurred in. Motion presented. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. Bill17-The Elections Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: Bill 17 , The Elections Amend ment Act (Loi modifiant la Loi electorate), the

5084 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 15 , 2000 amendment standing in the name of the Honourable Interim Leader of the Official Opposition. Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (Interim Leader of the Official Opposition): I move, seconded by the Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer), THAT Bill 17 be amended by adding the following after the proposed subsection 17 4.2(2) as set out in

section 25 of the Bill: Right of candidate to enter communities 17 4.2(2.1) No person shall prevent a candidate or a representative of a candidate who produces identification indicating that he or she is a candidate or representative from canvassing or distributing election campaign material in any town, village, municipality, local government district, designated community under the Northern Affairs Act or reserve as defined in the Indian Act (Canada). Motion presented. * (14 :5 0) I just want to put a few comments on the record.

This was an amendment that we moved at committee stage, and it was defeated, so it is back here again today at report stage. It does address an issue that happened during the 19 99 election campaign when one of our candidates was refused admission to campaign on a reserve in the province of Manitoba. I believe it was in The Pas constituency. I believe that if this amendment had been in place it would have contravened The Elections Act and there could have been some action taken. I believe that this is only fair.

When we look at the other amendments that were brought in by government to this legislation, they are amendments that allow candidates the right to enter multiple dwellings, to enter apartment blocks and communicate directly with every individual. That is the democratic right of any candidate or the person that has been designated by a candidate to work on their behalf. It works both ways, Mr. Speaker.

Not only should the candidate have the right to communicate with every individual in the province of Manitoba that has the right to vote, but also individuals who do have the right to vote should not be denied access to anyone that would like to present their point of view during an election campaign.

So I think both the candidates, those who work on their behalf, and every citizen in the province of Manitoba has an opportunity with this amendment to ensure that they are able to exercise their democratic right to vote by secret ballot based on full information by those who have put their names forward to be elected to office by any political party. So, Mr. Speaker, that is the reason for this amendment, and I would hope that it would receive support from this House. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I want to thank the Interim Leader of the Opposition for the opportunity to speak on this amendment.

I undertook in the Committee to review the amendment that she had proposed. We have reviewed this with the legal counsel and other constitutional people. We will be proposing, as an alternative resolution to this issue, an alternative amendment to allow for access of all candidates to enter all, to have the right to campaign and distribute material in any community in the province that we believe, based on our legal opinion, legal advice, is consistent with the spirit of the existing elections law and consistent with the principles of a democracy that prevail in The Elections Act of Manitoba. Mr.

Frank Pitura (Morris): Mr. Speaker, I would just like to make a few comments on the amendment put forth by our Leader, and I think that it is important to note here that within the province of Manitoba all of the governing systems are defined by political boundaries. So, whether it is a town or a village or a municipality or a Northern Affairs community or a reserve as defined under the Indian Act of Canada, there is a political boundary attached to it, a geographical boundary which defines that community.

So it is important, I think, that the amendment that was put forward by our Interim Opposition Leader be supported because it actually clarifies the definition of the various political boundaries that people who are campaigning can distribute election material in,

August 15 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5085 as opposed to the amendment put forth by the Premier, which only defines a community, which then tends to throw it up in the air as to what is defined as a community. So I think that the amendment that was put forward by our Interim Opposition Leader should be supported. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? An Honourable Member: Question. Mr. Speaker: The question before the House is: THAT Bill 17 be amended by adding the following after the proposed subsection 17 4.2(2) as set out in

section 25 of the Bill: Right of candidate to enter communities- Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. 17 4.2(2. 1) No person shall prevent a candidate or a representative of a candidate who produces identification indicating that he or she is a candidate or representative from canvassing or distributing election campaign material in any town, village, municipality, local government district, designated community under the Northern Affairs Act or reserve as defined in the Indian Act (Canada). Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment? Some Honourable Members: Agreed.

Some Honourable Members: No. Voice Vote Mr. Speaker: All those in favour, say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed, say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Nays have it. Formal Vote Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Opposition House Leader): Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: A recorded vote has been requested. Call in the members. The question is the following: THAT Bill 17 be amended by adding the following after the proposed subsection 17 4.2(2) as set out in

section 25 of the Bill: Right of candidate to enter communities 17 4.2(2. 1) No person shall prevent a candidate or a representative of a candidate who produces identification indicating that he or she is a candidate or representative from canvassing or distributing election campaign material in any town, village, municipality, local government district, designated community under the Northern Affairs Act or reserve as defined in the Indian Act (Canada).

Division A RECORDED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas Dacquay, Derkach, Dyck, Enns, Faurschou, Filmon, Gerrard, Gilleshammer, Laurendeau, Loewen, Maguire, Mitchelson, Pitura, Praznik, Reimer, Schuler, Smith (Fort Garry). Nays Aglugub, Allan, Asper, Barrett, Caldwell, Cerilli, Chomiak, Dewar, Doer, Friesen, Jennissen, Korzeniowski, Lemieux, Mackintosh, Maloway, Martindale, McGifford, Mihychuk, Nevakshonoff, Reid, Robinson, Rondeau, Sale, Santos, Schellenberg, Selinger, Smith (Brandon West), Struthers, Wowchuk. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Yeas 17 , Nays 29. Mr.

Speaker: I declare the amendment lost.

5086 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 15 , 2000 *** Mr. Doer: Yes, I move, seconded by the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak), THAT the Bill be amended in

section 25 by adding the following after the propo sed subsection 17 4.2(2): Right of candidate to enter communities 174.2(3) No person shall prevent a candidate or a representative of a candidate who produces identification indicating that he or she is a candidate or representative from canvassing or distributing election campaign material in any community in the province. Motion presented. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, I was just wondering if there might be the ability to ask a question before I adjourn debate. I do not know ifl need leave for that or not. Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker.

Leave has been granted. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thanks, Mr. Speaker. I was just wanting to ask the Premier-we have had some discussion. I think we are both looking towards the same end objective, and that is to ensure that candidates have the opportunity to speak to every voter in the province, but voters have the opportunity to have dialogue with all of the candidates that might be running in their particular constituency.

We have indicated that we would be prepared to support an amendment to the Premier's amendment that indicates that a candidate or his representative would have access to every residence of every voter right throughout the province. If that kind of amendment would be acceptable to the Premier, we would be prepared to support that amendment. So I ask whether he would be willing to undertake that? * (16: 00) Mr. Doer: I am not sure how that applies to the present issue of prisoners and the decision made by members opposite and overturned at a certain level in the court.

I recall it was unlimited voting in the proposed bill in '98. There was a change in that bill and I think another change from the former first minister. Then there is the issue of some. I think we have clarified it in a number of institutions, apartments, et cetera, in the present form of Bill 17. Let me take your question as notice and go back to legal counsel. This wording did come out of the concern in committee and did come from the legal counsel in consultation with the constitutional people in the Department.

I certainly will take the suggestion back to get further advice and we will get our proper legal advice. Mr. Gary Filmon (Tuxedo): I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if I may have leave to ask the Premier a question as well? An Honourable Member: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been granted. Mr. Filmon: Mr.

Speaker, given that courts have used as precedents the intent expressed in the Legislature at the time of passage of the legislation by the proposer or the government of the day, I wonder if the Premier would indicate, since what he has done here is replace a series of specific references with a broad general reference, that it is his intent to include all of the various references that are given here. For instance, is it his intent to ensure that this amendment covers access to voters living in all of the various different places, towns, villages, or First Nations communities in this province?

Are they all included in his definition of community as it is shown in this amendment? Mr. Doer: It is the intent consistent with the Act where people have the right to vote as the right to campaign. I think that is consistent with the changes we made on personal care homes, apartments, condos, other considerations that were contained within Bill 17 , subject to reasonable hours of operation for those facilities, for example, hospitals. The intent is to be consistent with the democracy, wherever it exists in the province, but also consistent with the authorities that we have under the Act.

August 15 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5087 So, yes, the answer is in a democracy where people have the right to vote the people have a right to campaign and canvass. The answer to the question to the Member is yes. Whether we have the authority in this act is the question, and given the various authorities we did canvass how other provinces dealt with this issue.

No other province has this specific amendment or the amendment that was proposed by the Interim Leader of the Opposition so we came back with this wording consistent with the principle that those people who have a right to vote should have the right to have democracy in their communities and the canvassing and information available to all people in all communities in Manitoba. Mrs. Mitchelson: I move, seconded by the Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshammer), that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, would you please proceed with report stage of 33, 47 and then 12? Bill 33-The Highway Traffic Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act Mr. Speaker: Bill 33, The Highway Traffic Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act (Loi modifiant le Code de Ia route et modifications correlatives), amendment 1, standing in the name of the Honourable Attorney General. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I certainly appreciate the interest in this aspect and the aspect regarding the other amendment expressed by the critic and other members of the Opposition, notably the Member for Steinbach (Mr. Jim Penner). We have considered the report stage amendment which would permit owners to sell their impounded vehicles and have the vehicle released to the new owner. The owner, as I understand it from the amendment, would deposit money equal to the value of the vehicle as determined by the designated person, and the owner would not receive this money until the impoundment period expired.

From the critic's description and from the wording of the amendment, the purpose of the Member for Lac du Bonnet's (Mr. Praznik) motion is to allow owners of newer vehicles to avoid depreciation on their vehicle when it is impounded for a lengthy period. Given that it is our opinion that the amendment requires significant consideration as releasing the vehicle, even for sale, goes to the very heart of the vehicle impoundment program, Mr.

Speaker, it would be very unfortunate, I am sure-and I think it was the intent of the Member for Lac du Bonnet to avoid situations where a friend or perhaps a family member or a person who is not at an arms-length role vis-a-vis the person with the impounded vehicle could buy the vehicle and allow the former owner to drive it.

Now I in committee had agreed to consider this issue nonetheless given that concern and I undertook, I believe, if my memory serves me right, to provide a full answer to the Member for Lac du Bonnet when we further consider significant change to the public policy with regard to impaired driving and licence suspensions in the next session. I am of the view that this course of action should be maintained. There may be some other issues where an amendment like this should best fit within The Highway Traffic Act and that, as well, deserves further consideration. So, in

summary, Mr. Speaker, since the impoundment itself, for the purpose of ensuring that a vehicle is not available to an owner as a consequence, and to ensure as best we can the public safety of Manitobans, any scheme that could soften that is something that must be considered very, very carefully, and even if in the amendment the Honourable Member had proposed this scheme would only kick in if there were a sale in an arm's-length transaction, the question is what would comprise an arm's-length transaction and who would assess that? In other words, would there be some administrative scheme in place to consider that?

What I think is important, though, about the intent of the amendment is it recognizes there is a move to longer impoundment periods. We have to consider what the impact or the effects of that change may be. I appreciate that. As I have said, I certainly commit to full

5088 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 15 , 2000 consideration of this and getting back to the Member who proposed this with the full assessment of this kind of change to the law. * (16:10 ) Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: The question before the House: THAT Bill 33 be amended by adding "provided that the person directed to store the vehicle has, and maintains, suf ficient insurance to cover any damage or loss to the vehicle- An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr.

Speaker: Dispense. -while impounded, " after ''peace officer directs, " in the proposed subsection 242. 1 (3), as set out in subsection 4(7) of the Bill. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Some Honourable Members: No. Voice Vote Mr. Speaker: All those in favour, say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed, say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Nays have it. An Honourable Member: On Division. Mr. Speaker: On Division. * * * Mr. Speaker: Amendment 2, standing in the name of the Honourable Attorney General.

Proposed amendment to Bill 33, moved by the Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik), standing in the name of the Honourable Attorney General. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, this is an issue that requires further review as well. There are a number of issues that have to be carefully considered, and I will just outline those. The issue was raised, of course, in committee, and the amendment requires police officers to direct that a vehicle be impounded with a person who has sufficient insurance. When the issue was raised in the Committee by the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr.

Praznik) about who pays for damage to an impounded vehicle, I think it was the Member's view that the Government should be responsible for that coverage because it is a government program. My response was, as I recall, that while it is the Government's program, the garage keepers are remunerated for their services by way of contract and by way of the legislative scheme which requires that an owner make certain fee payments when the vehicle is claimed. I think there was a brief exchange about whether garage keepers have insurance, although no amendment was moved at that time. It is our view, Mr.

Speaker, that the issue is certainly worthy of review and consideration. So, in the Department's view, there have not been a lot of complaints and incidents brought to the attention of the Department about damage to vehicles while impounded; however, there have been some that have been passed on. I understand there was one recently where a window was broken on an impounded vehicle and, although the compound had insurance, the insurer, I understand, had refused to pay and insisted that it was the owner of the vehicle who was responsible for that damage, and liability was outside of the terms of coverage.

I understand that there may well be insurance issues on the garage keepers' side as well, such as the cost of insurance. But we will add this item to the issues that have to be considered, and we will report back to the House and to the Member. We should determine what type of insurance is currently available to garage keepers and at what cost. I think it would be

August 15 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5089 imprudent to move on this one without having consultations with the garage keepers who we so keenly rely on in enforcing this regime. There is also some difficulty with the form of the amendment as it is currently worded because it may, indeed, put the onus on individual police officers to ensure that garage keepers have sufficient insurance in every instance.

We should look very carefully at that and make sure that we are not unduly imposing duties on police officers without consulting and making sure that if we are to have a provision with regard to insurance, that we make sure that it can be delivered on and that those who we rely on to deliver the change are consulted and are with us, if you will, in moving ahead. The Department has also expressed a concern as to, if any amendment is made like this, whether it should be a stand-alone provision perhaps in the nature of a program requirement for garage keepers. So with those remarks, Mr.

Speaker, I thank the Opposition for raising this issue. It is worthy of consideration, and it may well end up as a provision. I am sure I will be most grateful at that time to the Opposition, if that is the outcome, but I think we just have to be a little more careful. We will look at it over the next few months. Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): I am rising to close debate on this particular amendment that I have moved. I appreciate the Attorney General looking into the matter, and I appreciate his sympathy for the amendment.

But I have to tell you, we do not find it particularly acceptable that the Attorney General at this time would just brush off what is I think a basic matter of fairness, that if the Crown is impounding vehicles and putting them into the care of garage operators, storage facilities, that the Crown does not have some obligation to ensure that those vehicles are insured. I mean, the intent of the penalty is to deny the individual the use of the vehicle. It is not to double penalize them by seeing their vehicle damaged with no reasonable recourse to cover that damage.

I believe, as we do on this side of the House, that there is an obligation. Perhaps there have been oversights in the past. It has been raised now, and I appreciate the reluctance that the Attorney General has indicated of his department. But we have seen in this session already where officials in the Department of Justice have not thought things through in bringing forward new administrative schemes. I do not fault the Attorney General for that, but the Attorney General has a responsibility to make sure his department is acting and acting swiftly, if they are bringing forward a scheme.

So here we have the Attorney General, who made a great deal publicly of expanding the impoundment provisions and going after drunk drivers. Yet in his haste to bring this bill into the Assembly, he has not done his work. He is admitting that today .

He has not done his preparatory work to ensure that administrative scheme, that great addition to the impoundment provisions already in our law, were properly thought out and all the provisions were thought out, to ensure that somebody who is subject to that law can at least appreciate that their vehicle will be insured or have insurance during the period while it is impounded, that that property is not going to be destroyed or damaged and they will have a double penalty. So what we are having the Attorney Genetal admit to us today is he was ill prepared.

He was ill prepared when he brought forward these proposals. We have seen it already in the Department of Justice earlier in this session when the Minister brought forward what his department I am sure told him was a simple housekeeping bill that was going to change our law that notification for jury duty would be but five days by regular mail, which this Legislature was then being asked to deem receipt of that notice which would have put the individual in a position where they may have been subject to a penalty.

There was no thought in the Department of Justice to the reality for many, many Manitobans that they do not receive their mail delivered to their home and pick it up on a daily basis. That demonstrated to us that his department was not thinking through the administrative issues that they are responsible for, and this is just another case of it. I can appreciate the Attorney General talking about our previous amendment and having some concern about how it would affect

5090 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 15 , 2000 the ability if the car could be sold to another person. Would that person get it back? Could that undermine the legislation? Yes, there are some issues, and we certainly would have accepted amendment to the fine to put arm's length in that provision. The Attorney General says: How do you define that?

Well, the income tax department, his colleague who sits next to him, the Minister of Finance, his officials have no problem defining arm's-length when it comes to tax matters, but we will give the Attorney General a little bit more time and latitude on that one. * (16 :20) Here is a simple provision to this act, to this administrative scheme that simply will require that the Crown ensure that any place where they are impounding vehicles carries sufficient insurance to ensure, should damage be done to that vehicle in the course of impoundment, that there is insurance coverage to protect the owner of the vehicle so that this Legislature is not imposing a double penalty.

Yet his own department had not thought about that, had not thought that through. I appeal to members like the Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) and the Member for Selkirk (Mr. Dewar). I appeal to members like that. The Member for Elmwood has been a great advocate of protection for the consumer, but will he have the intestinal fortitude now to stand up against his Attorney General to fight to ensure that there is basic insurance coverage for people who are taking, for a fee, impounding others' vehicles.

Will he have the courage to vote against his Attorney General on this amendment and support a very, very straightforward amendment that is just the requirement that any place the Crown is using to impound vehicles be required to have sufficient insurance coverage to cover the value of the vehicles that are there? Is this such a great administrative problem that the officials in the Department of Justice cannot manage it? Is that what the Attorney General is admitting to us today, that his officials are not able to handle a simple task? They can impound vehicles. They can administer the law.

They can run you through the court system, but they are not capable of ensuring that the places where they impound vehicles have insurance to cover the value of the vehicles that are being stored there. You know, Mr. Speaker, what concerned us on this side of the House, and it should concern the northern members and the rural members of the New Democratic Party, the Member for Interlake (Mr. Nevakshonoft), the Member for The Pas (Mr. Lathlin), the Member for Flin Flon (Mr. Jennissen), the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers), the Member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk), their constituents may have a vehicle impounded.

It may be put in some local garage, no insurance coverage. It is damaged. The cost of litigation is prohibitive to the individual whose car has been impounded. They now are out several thousands of dollars, and there is no insurance coverage. The cost of litigation in the Attorney General's court is far too great to pursue the matter. They will be in your constituency of fice, and they will be saying: What did you do to protect me? I paid my price. I did not have the vehicle for a year, but now I do not have the vehicle.

Here today we bring what we thought was a friendly amendment, a simple little amendment that would require the Department of Justice to ensure that any authorized compounds, in order to take those vehicles for impoundment, have secured sufficient insurance to cover the loss of the vehicles. No more common sense an amendment could you have made to this provision, and here we have the sight of the Attorney General getting up and saying my department has to study it. We have to look at it some more. We are not sure what eff ect this will have. It is not even a budget item for the Department.

It is not a money item for the Government, just a requirement that, if you want to do business with the Crown and impound vehicles, you have to demonstrate to the Crown that you have obtained insurance to whatever value which would be the value of the vehicles that you are going to be impounding in your lot. It is a simple, little, common-sense amendment that this Attorney General is afraid to look at his department and say, listen, this makes sense. Just do it. We are going to do it. Between this amendment and The Jury Act, I am getting the sense that the officials in the

August 15 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASS EMBLY OF MANITOBA 509 1 Department are running the Department. I am really getting a sense, unless it is a nice big public statement that the Attorney General gets to make, he is not interested. Mr. Speaker, we will be supporting this amendment, and I say to the Attorney General get some grip on your department. These things should be done, and they should be done quickly. Mr. Speaker: Order. Before recognizing the Honourable Member for River Heights, I would just like to remind all honourable members that the mover of amendment needs leave to close debate. Hon.

Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I just want to say very briefly and express my dis appointment in the Attorney General, when there is a fairly straightforward amendment which would provide some accountability and responsibility, that the Mini ster of Justice will not stand up and support it. If people's cars get damaged as a result of the actions of the Attorney General and he is not taking any responsibility, he is not putting in any mechanism for accountability within the framework, it is a sad day for justice in Manitoba, when we have a minister who will not be accountable, will not take responsibility.

An Honourable Member: Question. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is: THAT Bill 33 be amended by adding the following- Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. after clause 4(14): 4(14.1) The following is added after subsection 242. 1 (6): Vehicle may be released if sold 242.1(6.1.1 ) Notwithstanding subsection 242. 1 (8), the owner of a motor vehicle seized under this

section may at any time apply to the designated person for the release of the vehicle by (

a) demonstrating, to the reasonable satisfaction of the designated person, that the owner has sold the motor vehicle to a purchaser; and (

b) depositing a sum of money, or security for money approved by the Minister of Finance, equal to the value of the vehicle, as determined by the designated person in accordance with the regulations. Certificate of Minister of Finance confirming deposit 242.1(6.1.2) The owner shall deposit the amount determined under subsection (6.1.1 ), or security for it with the Minister of Finance, who shall iss ue to the owner a certificate that confirms the amount of the deposit. Designated person to authorize release of vehicle 242.1(6.1.3) The designated person shall authorize the release of the vehicle to the purchaser, or to a person, other than the owner, authorized by the purchaser subject to (

a) the designated person receiving a certificate issued under subsection 6.1.2 , (

b) the designated person being satisfied the owner has sold his or her interest in the vehicle to the purchaser; and (

c) the payment of the lien under subsection (9). Security not subject to other claims 242.1(6.1.4) The money or security for money deposited with the Minister of Finance is not subject to any other claim or demand. Release of security 242.1(6.1 .5) The Minister of Finance shall return the principle amount of the sum of money, or security, paid under subsection (6.1.1) to the owner, on the date the designated person determines the owner would have been entitled to the return the motor vehicle under this section, but not be fore.

5092 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 15 , 2000 Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the amendment? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Some Honourable Members: No. Voice Vote Mr. Speaker: All those in support of the amendment, say yea. Some Honourable Members: Yea. Mr. Speaker: All those opposed to the amendment, say nay. Some Honourable Members: Nay. Mr. Speaker: In my opinion, the Nays have it. An Honourable Member: On division. Mr. Speaker: On division. * * * Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): move, seconded by the Minister of Family Services (Mr.

Sale), that Bill 33, The Highway Traffic Amendment and Consequential Amend ments Act; Loi modifiant le Code de Ia route et modifications correlatives, as amended and reported from the Standing Committee on Law Amendments, be concurred in. Motion agreed to. Bill 47-The Civil Service Amendment Act Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Mini ster of Finance, that Bill 4 7, The Civil Service Amendment Act (Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia fonction publique), reported from the Standing Committee on Industrial Relations, be concurred in. Motion agreed to. Bill12-The Public Schools Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: Bill 12 , The Public Schools Amendment Act (Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les ecoles publiques ), amendment 1, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Transcona (Mr. Reid). Is it the will of the House for the amendment to remain standing in the name of the Member for Transcona? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: It has been denied. Hon. Drew Caldwell (Minister of Education and Training): I would like to move, seconded by the Honourable Min ister of Industry, Trade and Mines (Ms. Mihychuk), THAT the motion to amend the Bill in

section 4 be amended by striking out everything after "be amended" and substituting "by striking out the proposed subsections 260.1 ( 1) and (2) and substituting the following: Notification to the minister 260.1(1) The parent or guardian of a child who is a pupil in a home school shall, in the prescribed form, notify the minister of the establishment of the home school. When notification to take place 260.1(2) The parent or guardian shall, in the prescribed form, notify the minister about the home school when it is first established and on or before September 1 in each year. Mr.

Speaker: Does the Honourable Minister have leave to move a subamendment? [Agreed] * (1 6:30 ) Mr. Caldwell: Mr. Speaker, right at the beginning of my remarks, from the outset I want to commend the members opposite as well as the home-school associations, who have had con siderable impact upon this amendment today. We in government listened to the comments by members opposite as well as the home-school associations in our deliberations vis-a-vis Bill 12. Today we are pleased to put forward an amendment that reflects a number of concerns by the members opposite as well as the home-

August 15, 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5093 school associations vis-a-vis notification of home schooling. We took our language from the Alberta home-school regulations and legislation as it was reflected in the Alberta legislation, primarily because Alberta was referred to a number of times during the last week or so as a model for home schooling in Canada. The Alberta legislation provides some of the language that is used in this particular amendment.

I think the important thing in this regard, and it is an important thing, is that the process in this instance which provided for consultation with home schoolers throughout the province as well as the associations and the work done by Her Majesty's loyal opposition in the debate on this particular matter, and I have to give credit, you know, because oftentimes it does not happen, so I will give credit when it is due, had an impact in thinking. I made a commitment last week to take back some of the concerns that were expressed to me by the associations to my caucus colleagues.

We had three very long discussions over the past number of days, last week and this week, as recently as earlier today, this morning, which is reflected in these amendments. As I said, the provisions provided for by the Alberta regulations and legislation, as was suggested to us by a number of home schoolers, was something that went into this process. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mrs. Joy Smith Wort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, I want to thank the Minister for acknowledging the tremendous ef fort we have put forth on this side of the House to get the Minister to take back the Bill or to accept the original amendments that were put forward by the home schoolers. However, I have to speak to this amendment because there are serious concerns about this amendment. The home schoolers have gained nothing today from this new amendment. In fact this new amendment is worse than the former bill. In this amendment it says in the prescribed form.

The problem that members opposite do not seem to understand is, No. 1-[interjection] No, it is not good enough. The Minister of Education promised to meet with the home schoolers. [interjection] Excuse me, Mr. Speaker, members opposite are being very rude. The Minister of Industry and Trade (Ms. Mihychuk) is being rude. This is a very serious matter. The Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) promised to meet with the home schoolers. You do not need legislation to put a form out. All you have to do is sit down and agree on the form. Mr.

Speaker, this is serious because none of the other amendments have been approved by the Minister and by members opposite. When the Minister talks about the Alberta model, I appreciate that he is doing his best to take the wording off of the Alberta form, but the Minister has to understand that the home schoolers in Alberta are funded. So it is a different ball game. The forms that are put forward are done by consensus, by agreement. This is a definite problem. I spoke to the Minister earlier and to the Minister's credit he gave me some time.

He spoke to me and I appreciate that, but it was under a veiled threat that if we stood this amendment he could not guarantee what members opposite would do on the third reading. We have the Member for Lakeside who has an inordinate amount of home schoolers-I am sorry, Interlake, apology. Excuse me, Mr. Speaker- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. All members wishing to speak will have their tum. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry has the floor. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, we have the Member for Interlake (Mr. Nevakshonoff) and we had the Member for Rossmere (Mr.

Schellenberg) come forward on the steps of the Legislature with the Minister the other day. I am asking the members opposite who have home schoolers in their constituencies to vote against Bill 12 and to not allow Bill 12 to go any further, because in the province of Manitoba, last time I checked, we have democracy here. Democracy means that home schoolers should have the ability to home-

5094 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 15 , 2000 school their children without government intervention. Mr. Speaker, I quote. This is taken from a study done on the results of home-schooling education. It is a nation-wide study of home school education in Canada, and it revealed that home-educated students achieved well above average on standardized achievement tests, quote: The degree of governmental regulation from state to state has no significant eff ect on the academic performance of home schoolers.

When a state or a province imposes a high degree of regulation, that is notification, standards testing, professional evaluations, curriculum approval, teacher qualification, home v1s1ts or no regulation, home-school student test score averages are identical with the 86 percentile for both segments. Legitimate questions may be asked concerning the purpose of such regulations since there is no apparent eff ect on student learning. Mr. Speaker, this nation-wide study indicates that regulations on home schoolers have absolutely no effect at all on the level of the students' education.

Having said that, here in the province of Manitoba we are talking about a much bigger issue than having parents notify the Minister that their children are being home schooled. This is an issue of democratic right here in the province of Manitoba. The Minister of Education should have lived up to his word. He should have met with the home schoolers in person, not over a cell phone. He should have run this regulation by them. He should have asked them what they thought. I am astounded at the lack of understanding that comes forth by members opposite. I am astounded about their definition of collaboration.

The home schoolers were not listened to, they were not consulted, and we keep hearing on a daily basis how members opposite and this Minister of Education have consulted. Bill 12 is not a good bill for home schoolers. plead with this Minister of Education right now, today. I plead with him to withdraw Bill 12 , to eliminate this trumped-up regulation that meets the needs of the caucus of members opposite. I plead with this government to finally listen to what the home schoolers of Manitoba are saying to them.

Today, it was with grave reservation in speaking to this bill when I talk about the Bill being very skilfully amended, this phrase that says "prescribed form." What prescribed form? This is like putting the cart before the horse. You do not need, as I said earlier, a form. You do not have to put legislative form.

A form should be done by calling the home schoolers into the Minister's office, talking about the needed information like the name of the student, where the student lives, the grade level of education and that kind of factual information that is needed to ensure that students are registered for school and receive their schooling in the province of Manitoba. * (1 6: 40) Mr. Speaker, this veiled threat that if this amendment is stood, that members opposite may not support-and I see some of the members looking over and smiling. This is a serious consideration. When you have-[in terjection] Excuse me.

When you have-if you are listening, members opposite, if members opposite are listening I am asking them to throw out Bill 12. Get rid of it. This amendment today is totally unacceptable. It is not a personal debate. Point of Order Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker. I would encourage the Member for Interlake (Mr. Nevakshonoff) if he wants to get into a debate that he wait his turn and get at it. Chirping from the other side there I think is very uncomplimentary to our member. So I would suggest that he wait his turn and then put his comments on record. Thank you. Mr.

Speaker: The Honourable Member does not have a point of order, but I would like to remind all members that it is getting very difficult to hear. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry has the floor. *** Mrs. Smith: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is very worrisome and regrettable that we have to

August 15 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5095 receive personal slurs and slanders from members opposite. This idea is not my own. Members from this side of the House went forward and spoke with the home schoolers. We looked at the laws. The Province of Manitoba does not fund home schoolers. We do not have the right. The Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) is really treading on thin ice when amendments are put in place that do not reflect a bill that will enhance the education of the home schooling children. Mr.

Speaker, we have members opposite who have now left the room because they do not want to hear what I have to say. [interjection] Pardon me. Oh, members, yes. We now have members opposite who are not happy with my comments this afternoon. But I want it on record that this is not a personal affront to any member opposite. I respect the members opposite. I respect the Min ister of Education, and I think the Minister knows that. We do differ in what we believe in terms of this bill, and I want to keep it at that level.

I have great respect for this House, and I do not intend to have any personal slurs coming from this side from my perspective or members on this side of the House in terms of this bill. We are concerned about this bill because of its content. The plain facts are that there are some very worrisome amendments put forward. This is a very worrisome amendment put forward by the Minister of Education. It is worrisome to the home schoolers. It is worrisome to the demo cratic process. I appeal to all the members opposite, because all the members opposite have to vote on this Bill 12 and, Mr.

Speaker, all the members opposite have home schoolers in each of their constituencies. We live in a democratic society. The home schoolers have spoken. They are not pleased with this bill. They want it withdrawn. They are not pleased, as I am not pleased and members on this side of the House are not pleased, with the lack of consultation between the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) and the home schoolers. Mr.

Speaker, in speaking to this particular amendment, when we have gone all over these issues, and just to quickly reiterate, when the Minister mentioned that consultation had occurred with the home schoolers, the Minister's definition of consultation is far different from what members on this side of the House consider to be consultation. Consultation means sit down, reach a consensus and arrive at what should be done in terms of the registration forms for home schoolers. This notification to the Minister and this prescribed form is unacceptable, because there has been no agreed-upon prescribed form. Mr.

Speaker, to say it came from the Alberta wording, I mean, members on this side of the House know that probably the intention was to pull out the wording, but the thoughtfulness is lacking, because the wording is totally out of context and indeed can prove to be disastrous to the home-schooling population here in Manitoba. We know, without a doubt, in the province of Manitoba that home schoolers have an education that is comparable to the education, if not better, and in most cases better than students who are in the public school system.

It would behoove this House to spend time on the public school system, to support the teachers in the public school system, to support the students in the public school system, and allow the home schoolers to continue the great job that they have been doing at home-schooling their children. I would remind members opposite that every member received, in good faith, some cookies, some well-intentioned good relationship building. The home schoolers did that, and I see some smirks, Mr. Speaker.

This is a sign from the home schoolers that they really care about what you think, that they really care about being respectful to government, it is just that they are afraid for their democratic rights. The home schoolers in Manitoba, as we have seen in Bill 42, Bill 44, Bill 4-we keep going on and on and on. The democratic right is being chopped off the Legislature here in Manitoba. I am appealing to members opposite. Members opposite, each one of the members opposite are responsible for the way they vote. Each member has a right in a democratic society to vote Bill 12 down. Very respectfully, Mr.

Speaker, I am appealing to you and to members opposite to vote Bill 12 down, to vote this amendment down and to move forward. It is time now to move forward, to listen in real

5096 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA August 15 , 2000 collaboration with the home schoolers and to work together to make the best possible education for home schoolers in our province. Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to stand up today to put some words on record with regard to this amendment. One of the commitments that the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) made on the east steps of the Legislature to the home schoolers was that, in fact, he was listening and that indeed he would be consulting with them before he moved ahead with this legislation. Mr.

Conrad Santos, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair I am really sorry today to understand that the limited amount of consultation that the Minister has had with the home schoolers has produced an amendment that does not meet what the home schoolers were asking for through amendments that my colleague, the Member for Fort Garry (Mrs. Smith), put forward. The Member for Fort Garry put forward amendments that were brought to her by the home schoolers. These are not our amendments.

All these amendments were designed to do was to give some latitude to the home schoolers to not conduct home-school activities outside the law, but to conform with the wishes of government, but perhaps in a less restraining way. * (16: 50) This piece of legislation, Mr. Speaker, constrains the way in which home schooling is done in the province of Manitoba. The Minister of Education says that he has taken his amendment out of the Alberta regulation that is operating in the province of Alberta. There is quite a difference between the home schoolers of Manitoba and the home schoolers in Alberta.

If the Min ister were to take some time to research the way that home schooling is conducted in Manitoba as opposed to Alberta, he would find that in Alberta the government has moved far beyond where we are today in Manitoba in terms of support to home schoolers. In Alberta, home schooling is a funded educational activity, and therefore, because it is funded by the province of Alberta, it comes under a set of different and probably more restrictive regulations for that reason.

The home schoolers of Manitoba said: We are not asking the Government for funding; we are not asking for financ ial support, and therefore we should not be subjected to the same kinds of regulations and legislation that is prescribed in provinces where home schooling is funded. So the Minister does not come close to meeting the objectives that were laid out before him through our amendment process by the home schoolers of our province.

So I am somewhat disappointed that from all of that discussion and from all of that rhetoric that we heard on the east steps of the Legislature, the Minister could only come up with this regulation which, quite truthfully, is not worth the paper that it is written on because it does not meet the objectives that I think were designed in the amendments that were put forward. Those amendments were straightforward. They were not going to jeopardize the Minister's position as Minister of Education and Training in any way.

All they were doing were amendments which were asking the Minister to consider the environment in which home schooling is done in the province of Manitoba, to respect the home schoolers and to allow them in a democracy to be able to conduct home schooling as is their right. Mr. Speaker in the Chair By making it so restrictive that they have to fill out prescribed forms which we do not know what the forms are like, Mr.

Speaker, it would have been far better had the Min ister said: In consultation with the home-schooling associa tion, we will develop a form that is approved by or is an acceptable form to the Minister and to the home schoolers and then we will have that form become a part of the home-schooling registration form, if you like. But the Min ister has to extend his hand to the home schoolers and allow them to have some input into the development of the form. It is just common sense.

And, yes, they may disagree on some aspects of it, but at the end of the day, if the association and the Minister both agree that this is the form that we will register our home schoolers on, then I think he has gained a great

August 15 , 20

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-1-78
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 1st hansardpdf 78.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
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