Manitoba Hansard — 13 May 1991 (Sitting 42B, 35th Legislature, 2nd Session)

35-2-42b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

MG-8048 Second Session -Thirty-Fifth Legislatu re of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS (HANSARD) 40 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XL No. 426 -8 p.m., MONDAY, MAY 13, 1991 Printed by the Offlce of the Queens Printer, Province of Manitoba ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Fifth Leglslatu re LIB - Liberal; ND - New Democrat; PC - Progressive Conservative NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARR, James CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHEEMA, Guizar CHOMIAK, Dave CONNERY, Edward CUMMINGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DERKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIEDGER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim, Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leonard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GILLESHAMMER, Harold, Hon. HARPER, Elijah HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAMOUREUX, Kevin LATHLIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McALPINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MclNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MITCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. NEUFELD, Harold, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROGAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric, Hon. STORIE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWCHUK, Rosann CONSTITUENCY Osborne Thompson Wellington Crescentwood River Heights Radisson The Maples Kildonan Portage la Prairie Ste.

Rose Seine River Roblin-Rus sell Selkirk Concordia Arthur-Virden Steinbach Riel St. James Lakeside Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfield Wolseley St. Boniface Minnedosa Rupertsland Gimli Point Douglas lnkste r The Pas St. Norbert Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assiniboia River East Rossmere Pembina Emerson Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johns Swan River PARTY.

LIB ND ND LIB LIB ND LIB ND PC PC PC PC ND ND PC PC PC LIB PC PC ND ND PC PC ND LIB PC ND PC ND LIB ND PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC PC PC ND PC ND PC PC ND ND

1988 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, May 13, 1991 The House met at 8 p.m. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPL Y-CULTURE, HERITAGE AND CITIZENSHIP Mr. Deputy Chairman (Marcel Laurendeau): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This even ing this

section of the Committee of Supply, meeting in Room 255, will resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. Whe n the committee last sat, it had been considering item 4. Citizenship (

c) Adult ESL Programs:

(1) Salaries, $301,600, on page 33 of the Estimates book and on pages 64 and 65 of the Supplementary Estimates Information book. Shall the item pass? -(interje ction)- Well, it was worth a try. Ms. Marianne Cerllll (Radlsson): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we are considering the changes in the English as a Second Language programming in the province. I would like the minister to begin by commenting on why the programs were separated as they were with the Winnipe g School Division and school division s being put unde r Culture and Heritage, and the programs funde d through Red River remaining in Education? Hon.

Bonnie Mltchelson (Minister of Culture, Her i tag e and Citi zen ship): Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I believe that I have answered that on several occasions in the past. There was a desire to combine services for new immigrants unde r a sp ecialized Citize nshi p branch within the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship. That was to provide for programming to ne w immigrants which we felt could be done in a more co-ordinate d fashion.

The Department of Education has statutory responsibility for Red River Community College, and that would remain with the Department of Education for specialized Adult ESL programming. The generic Adul t ESL programming was transferred to our department so that we could better co-ordinate those services. Ms. Cerllll: I guess I fail to see how it is being co- ordinated when it is separated. Mrs. Mltchelson: ESL programming is only one component of adaptation to Manitoba society by adults that come to this country. Some immigrants that come do not have any problem with the English language .

It is one component of adapting to Manitoba society besides all the programs that are available through Immigration and Settlement, through access services in that regard, and also multiculturalism which is a part of my portfolio and responsibility. All of those things have been combined. *

(2005) As I indi cated, the program at Red River Community College is a specialized program. The program at Winnipeg School Division No. 1 is a generic ESL programming for all those adults who require some form of ESL training. We may have split up the responsibility for ESL programming but, in fact, we have co-ordinated within my department the ability to look after more than just the one ne ed of those adults who immigrate to Canada. Ms. Cerllll : Can the ministe r clarify what the term "generic ESLn means? Mrs.

Mltchelson: That is Englis h as a Second Language training for those immigrants who have to adapt to a new country, to a new society, that is not specifically labour force driven, or they are not taking special programming that will equip them to adapt to a specialized profession. Ms. Cerll ll : Is there a difference in the classification of immigrants who are taking the programs at Red River as compared to the programs at Winnipeg No. 1? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, the programming at Winnipeg School Division No. 1 is mostly for government sponsored refugees and also for those who may have been in the country for a number of years who have never learned the English language, have ne ver used the opportunity and might, after the fact, want to go back and obtain some ESL training to better equip them to live in Manitoba society.

1989 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 1991 Red River Community College is specifically labour market driven, so that those who are trying to adapt to the work force through the labour force-and it is specialized training in specific areas. Ms. Cerllll: So the people taking the program at Red River were all nongovernment sponsored, or was there a mix of private agencies sponsoring them? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am informed that there was an open intake, but, in fact, what is happening at Red River Community College now is that it is going to be specific to labour market needs.

All of the other ESL training will be done through Winnipeg School Division No. 1 and the other school divisions throughout the province. -(interjection)- Mr. Deputy Chairman: Order, please. I would like to hear the questioning that is being brought forward. Ms. Cerllll: I understand that the programming at Red River is more specific than in nature to address-I know in the past there have been programs for single immigrant women who are parents, as well as some workplace programs.

What I am trying to get a handle on is if there are differences in the sponsorship of immigrants, if there are any regulations that stream, if you will, the immigrants into either program, Mrs. Mltchel son: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, there are no regulations. It is based on individual need. Ms. Cerllll : Can the mini ster provide some numbers as to the number of government sponsored immigrants as corn pared to other agency sponsored immigrants in the Red River program and the Winnipeg 1 program? Mrs.

Mltchelson : There is no reliable information, because immigran ts who are taking ESL programming are not asked to declare, and it would make some of them very nervous and uncomfortable to have to declare. Ms. Cerllll: As I understand it, there are some problems with the numbers of people who are going to be now on waiting lists and if there is a regulation with the Winnipeg 1 programs that they are government sponsored-is that correct? *

(2010) Mrs. Mltchelso n: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, at Winnipeg School Division No. 1 there are government sponsored, but there are also all other classes of immigrants who are wanting ESL training. Basically anyone, from those who have just arrived in Manitoba to those who have been here for several years who have never taken ESL programming before and now have a desire to take training, can apply to Winnipeg No. 1, and they all have equal opportunity to access the program. Ms.

Cerll ll: Perhaps to clarify then, can the minister give a breakdown of the number of government sponsored versus the other categories that were in the province? Mrs. Mltchelson: As I indicated earlier, those kinds of questions are not asked. Anyone that comes forward who has difficulty speaking English and wants to receive ESL training is put on the list and does in fact receive that training. Those figures are not available, and Winnipeg School Division No. 1 has never asked those questions. They have never been screened in that manner. Ms.

Cerll ll: I am not speaking just in terms of the programs in ESL, but overall numbers. Mrs. Mltchelson: What you are asking for is the number of immigrants per year who come to Manitoba and what classes they are? Ms. Cerll ll: That is right. Mrs. Mlt chelson: I believe we gave that information last time, but we will provide that again. I just want to indicate that these are all the refugees who came. These are not all adults. I mean, they are the total number of refugees who came to Manitoba in 1990: Family class, 2,190; refugee class, 2,340 and independent class, 2,096. Ms.

Cerll ll: That is not the question I am asking. I am actually asking specifically the sponsoring agencies. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, that is a federal responsibility, and we do not have a breakdown of those numbers. Ms. Cerll ll : Is that in this immigration information bulletin? Mrs. Mltchelson: The only breakdown we have is government sponsored refugees versus privately sponsored refugees, but not specific organizations and the numbers that each organization sponsors. Ms. Cerllll: Those are the numbers that I am looking for, that comparison.

May 13, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1990 Mrs. Mltchelson: In 1990, privately sponsored refugees were 1,260 and government sponsored, 1,080 -(interjection)- and those are refugees. *

(2015) Ms. Cerll ll: Can the minister clarify the way that the seats are purchased? I was surprised to find out with this Winnipeg School Division program that there is a negotiation between the federal government and the provincial government as to purc hasing the seat s. How much are the seats--how that whole process works? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, my understanding is that we are still in negotiations with Winnipeg School Division No. 1 on the purchase of seats. The federal government will now put their money directly into Winnipeg School Division No. 1 .

In previous years they flowed it through the provincial government. What they did, in fact, was give us the money and we passed it through to Winnipeg School Division No. 1. The federal government this year has determined that they are going to give their money directly to Winnipeg School Division No. 1, and they have the ability to do that, so they are still in negotiations with Winnipeg School Division No. 1 for the price. Ms . Ce rllll: Does the minister have an understanding of the reasons for that change? Mrs.

Mltchelson: Just as the federal government, two years ago, decided to cancel the Cll T program and put their money through CEIC, this year they are determining that they are going to directly fund the Winnipeg School Division No. 1. As I said, we have no control over what the federal government determines they are going to do with their money for ESL programming, so I do not know the justification.

They believe that they want to purchase the seats directly from Winnipeg School Division No. 1, and I guess that is their prerogative and all we can do is continue our funding through Winnipeg School Division No. 1 , and they will have to accept responsibility. Ms. Cerll ll: But the provincial government is also changing its funding or its purchasing of seats in Division No. 1 ? It seems like now that is where the provincial money is going as well. Mrs.

Mltchelson: We have made a decision that there is quality education through Winnipeg School Division No. 1 at the least costly price for the purchase of ESL programming, and we have placed a priority there. Ms. Cerll ll: So what about the programs that were offered, the more specialized programs, as the minister refers to them, that were offered through Red River. Are those going to be offered? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, those are a function of the Department of Education, and the Minister of Education (Mr.

Derkach) would be able to indicate what type of programming will be done at Red River Community College. I have the responsibility for Winnipeg School Division No. 1. We have enhanced our funding in Winnipeg School Division No. 1, and I am pleased to say that we are running a quality program with good standards through Winnipeg No. 1. Ms. Cerllll: I will get to the funding issue in a moment. I still want to try and clarify, does the minister have an understanding of where the negotiations between the school division and the federal government are? How will that affect provincial funding? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, my understanding is that we are getting fairly close. Officials within my department have been meeting with officials in Winnipeg School Division No. 1. What we want to ensure is that our dollars are used to provide good standards of ESL programming. What we want to ensure between our provincial government and Winnipeg School Division No. 1 is that we can agree on the standards and we can ensure that the federal dollars that are going into Winnipeg No. 1 are going to ensure the same standards. Ms. Cerll ll: Who is involved in those negotiations? A

(2020) Mrs. Mltchelson: It is the director of programming at Winnipeg School Division No. 1 plus the director of ESL in the province and then at the deputy minister level with the superintendent of schools for Winnipeg School Division No. 1. Ms. Cerl lll: So to clarif y, the provincial governm ent 's re presentative is from the Department of Education? Mrs. Mltchelson: Now the Citizenship branch. Ms. Cerllll: What is the total number of seats in the Winnipeg No. 1 program? Mrs. Mltchelson: It is roughly 4,000. Ms. Cerll ll : How many of those will be purchased by the province?

1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 1991 Mrs. Mltchelson: Roughly about 65 percent of the seats. Ms. Cerllll: That is for this coming year? Mrs. Mltchelson : Yes. Ms. Cerll ll: What was the percentage purchased last year? Mrs. Mltchelson: Roughly about 50 percent. Ms. Cerllll: So the percentage of seats purchased by the provincial government has increased in Winnipeg School Division No. 1, while the program at Red River has been eliminated, or cut back, I should say? Mrs. Mltchelso n: The program at Red River Community College has not been eliminated.

In fact, I have indicated that we have placed a priority on Winnipeg School Division No. 1, as a provincial government. Ms. Cerll ll: Are there plans to expand the program with Winnipeg School Division No. 1 ? *

(2025) Mrs. Mltchelson: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I indicated earlier that the federal government has made a commitment to Manitoba of some $500,000 of additional funding for adult ESL training. If the federal government put that money into Winnipeg School Division No. 1, we would certainly see a major increase there, but they have not indicated to us, as yet, where they are going to put that money. They seem to be putting less of a priority on institutionally based ESL training.

We have not been able to determine from the federal government to date-and we are actively pursuing-a sense of where and what they are going to do with that money. Ms. Cerllll : The minister had mentioned earlier about agreeing on standards for the program at Winnipeg No. 1, and I understand that the staff who are teaching that program-there is a contract agreement between the school division and the staff. I am wondering if the minister can assure us that there will remain a standard that qualified teachers will be required to teach those courses? Mrs. Mltchelson: The standards will not be changed in any way.

Ms. Cerll ll: The minister has mentioned a number of times that there has been an increase in the funding to the programs at the Winnipeg School Division. Can the minister explain how much money transferred to the new branch from the Department of Education? Mrs. Mltchelson: $1,590,000. Ms. Cerllll: How would the minister show the increase? I have heard the figure 4 percent and the dollar of $200,000. Mrs. Mltchelson: If we can go back again and talk about what happ ened.

Last year, being an exceptional year, we, as a province, did pick up some of the federal portion of ESL funding and indicated it would be on a one-year basis, and that we would not be able to pick up the federal government's cost in the future. So if you go back to 1989-90, previous to the one year where there was a major change in the funding. The net provincial total in 1989-90 was $1,038,500 and that total was for Winnipeg School Division No. 1 and Red River Community College. The net provincial total this year is $1,297, 600. Ms. Cerllll: I am not a mathematics person; could I get the figures again, please?

Mrs. Mltchelson : I think I have it now. The figures that I just gave you were the combination of Red River Community College and Winnipeg School Division No. 1 . I think what you want is the figures for Winnipeg School Division No. 1. Right? Ms. Cerll ll: I would prefer to have them both, separate. •

(2030) Mrs. Mltchelson: What I can give you are the figures for Winnipeg School Division No. 1 for 1989-90, okay? What went totally to Winnipeg School Division No. 1 in 1989-90 was $1,511,000 and I am going to round that off, okay? It is .4, but $1,511, 000. That was to Winnipeg School Division No. 1 for adult ESL training. In this fiscal year the amount that is going to Winnipeg School Division No. 1 is $1,819,000. Now both of those figures are including federal contributions, okay? Ms. Cerll ll: That is not going to help us clarify how much the province has put in. Mrs.

Mltchelson: All I can indicate is, because in the past we recovered money from the federal government for adult ESL training . You will remember, I indicated that what would happen is, we would purchase seats, the federal government would flow their money through the provincial government, and there would be cost recovery.

May 13, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1992 We recovered a certain X number of dollars from the federal government, but there was no indication or no breakdown on whether it was money that was recovered from the federal government for Red River Community College or for Winnipeg School Division No. 1 . I cannot give you those figures or that information, and I did not have the responsibility back then.

I can tell you now, today, that there is a differenc e between $1, 511, 000 that went to Winnipeg School Division No. 1 in 1989-90 and the amount that is going to Winnipeg School Division No. 1 this year, $1,8 19,000, and that is the combination of federal and provincial money.

All I can say is that it has been extremely confusing for me as a minister attempting to figure this out and to find out where the money has come from in the past, but I will indicate to you that there is a line in the budget this year that indicates how much we are contributing, and next year that line, I will have to be accountable for any increases or decreases in that line. As far as knowing what went on in the past, I have a lot of difficulty attempting to find out, with the money from the federal government flowing through the Department of Education, where it was allocated or what it was doing. Ms.

Cerllll: I guess that is the issue, that the community is confused and suspicious. They see that there have been programs cut from Red River, and the minister seems to be saying that that was money that was com ing from the fed eral government. I have heard that there is actually not a decrease for this year in the money from the federal government. Could the minister provide a table? Could her department prepare a table so that this whole issue can be clarified? Mrs. Mltchelson: Well, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, all I can say is, and I can go back again to the statement that there was a CIL T agreement, and the federal government put $1 .1 million into adult ESL training through that program. They cut that $1.1 million out of Manitoba's budget completely. That $1.1 million is gone.

The $900,000 that they are now putting in that they say is not a reduction, yes, is money that they put into adult ESL last year, but they took that money from other training programs within the Department of Education and said, this is where we are putting our money, because we are making adult ESL a priority among all of this other training money. So in fact the $1.1 million that was there from the federal government two years ago under the CIL T program no longer comes to Manitoba for adult ESL.

The $900,000 that they are funding ESL with came from other programs that the federal government had been funding and withdrew its funding from. So there is a $1.1 -million shortfall from the federal government over the last two years. I mean, they can say they have not cut back in any way, they have redirected money out of other training programs into adult ESL, but the $1.1 million is gone. Ms. Cerll ll: Hopefully, when we take a look at the Hansard some of this will become more clear.

I am going to move on to ask questions about the staff who have been transferred from the Department of Education to the Department of Citizenship. Can the minister explain the number of staff and the responsibilities of those staff who have been transferred over? Mrs.

Mltchelson: There were seven staff positions that were transferred over to the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, and their responsibilities are to maintain and enhance the co-ordination of adult ESL provision in the province by facilitating and/or ensuring the contin ued operation of the appropriate co-o rdin atin g mechanisms, maintain existing and develop new mechanisms for co-ordination among settlement services, ESL providers and other stakeholders, such as orientation and settlement information providers, and liaison meetings with settlement service providers.

I think you have all this in the book. Ms. Cerllll: Are then the services for the programs like the program that is servicing immigrant women in the workplace, where there is a community-based program, is that now under this department? Mrs. Mltchelson: They do the co-ordinating to ensure that the curriculum and the standards are in place for the programs, like SLP and Language at Work programs. They are all federally funded programs, but there is just a co-ordination mechanism whereby they work to ensure that the curriculum and the standards are adequate. Ms.

Cerllll : To clarify then, that is clear, the federal money is coming to the province and that is going to Red River? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, these are noninstitutional programs where the money goes from the federal government directly to

1993 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 1991 organizations and community groups to deliver the program, so the province's role in all of this is to ensure that the standards and the curriculum meet a criteria, and to co-ordinate this. They do not actually handle program dollars because the dollars go directly to community organizations. Ms. Cerll ll: Can the minister list the names of the organizations that are running those programs? Mrs. Mltchelson: We would have to get that information from the federal government. We can get that.

It is grants directly to community organizations from the federal government. Ms. Cerllll : But the provincial civil servants now in this department are co-ordinating the teachers, I would think, and they are making sure that there is space and materials, so they must know where the classes are being offered. Mrs. Mltchelson : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, they put the programs and the training together and they work with the communities to help the communities access the federal money for these programs. *

(2040) Ms. Cerllll: I understand that. The question I am asking is, what groups have had that service? Mrs. Mltchelson: Okay, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we will get a list pulled together and provide that for the members opposite. Ms. Cerllll: Has the funding to that program remained constant, and can the minister direct us to where that funding is in the Estimates booklet? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, it would not be in our Estimates booklet because it would be in the federal government's Estimates booklet, because they provide the grants directly to the ethnocultural organizations to do this programming. All we do is have staff in place who help to co-ordinate and set the standards within those communities. Ms. Cerllll : Maybe just to clarify then, could the minister give the complete names of the programs that the staff in her department are co-ordinating? Mrs.

Mltchelson : The SLP program, which is the settlement language program, the language at work program, English for Specific Purposes Program, English for Medica l Pu rposes, Employ ment Assistance Program, English for Day Care, English for Telephone Services, those are all different programs that are federal government programs funded by the federal government, and they change based on the needs of the community. Ms. Cerl lll: Has the funding from the federal government for those programs changed? Mrs. Mltchelson: We do not really know for sure.

There is a sense or a feeling out there that the money may go up, but I do not think there has been any definite indication on the exact amount of funding. Ms. Cerllll: Does the minister or her staff have the figures for those programs from last year and for this year? Mrs. Mltchelson: No, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, they are federal programs, and they would be in the federal budget. That information could be obtained through that process. They are not provincial government programs, so we do not have the figures. They are grants that are administered by the federal government, so we do not have that information.

It could be obtained from the federal government. Ms. Cerlltl : I understand that the provincial department has no hand in allocating these funds or in directing these funds, but if they are involved in co-ordinating services, I find it surprising that there would not be a record of the amount of money that these groups-- Mrs. Mltch el son : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, members of the opposition can go to the federal government and ask for the grants listing, just like our department can go to the federal government and ask for the grants listing.

So I would suggest if she wants that kind of information, that is the proper process to follow. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnks ter) : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, ESL is the biggest issue that continues to come up time after time no matter which community it seems that you attend. -(interjection) Maybe the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) can contain himself for a few minutes anyway. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I can appreciate some of the concerns that have been stressed from the minister now responsible for this particular program, underst andably so when you get a federal counterpart do what, in fact, they are doing.

After all, in a sense, I believe the early 50s when Cll Tf irst came around-to see it cut back in the nature that it has been, does put a bit of a bind on those who are trying to learn English.

May 13, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1994 Ultimately, once again, if the federal government fails, there is a role for the provincial government to pick up. We will go into some of the questions in regard to how well the government is picking it up because we hear different figures that are being batted around. For now, what I wanted to ask the minister and she had made reference that there is a cost sharing for Winnipeg School Division No. 1-you are looking at a 65-35 percent split, province and feds. In terms of Red River, what is the split at Red River right now? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, that question would have to be asked of the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach) and he could provide that. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the minister might be aware that when the ESL was in heated debate at the Chamber, we found that the Minister of Education, in fact, had said that $270,000 was being cut from Red River College, which was the ESL program-some of the teachers and staff, and so forth.

The reason why I ask is because from what I understand, the provincial government still does play some role in the distribution of the federal dollars and I am wondering what is happening to those federal dollars if, in fact, the province is cut back on. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, all I can do is indicate over again that I have the responsibility within my department of funding for Winnipeg School Division No. 1 and adult ESL programming. I can indicate that there is more money going to Winnipeg School Division No. 1 today than there was two years ago.

I cannot give any more information on what has happened at Red River Community College or what has not happened. What I have indicated is there has been an increased focus on training in Winnipeg School Division No. 1 and our commitment is clear. We have put $1. 174 million into Winnipeg School Division No. 1 through my department. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, no doubt the minister can say that Winnipeg School Division No. 1 ESL has increased in terms of provincial contributions but what the minister has told the public is that ESL has increased, the spending for English as a Second Language has increased from the provincial government. Yet we have the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach), on the one hand, saying that Red River has been cut $270,000. Then we have, on the other hand, the minister responsible for citizenship saying that we have added $200,000 to the ESL program.

It is fair to say that access with Winnipeg No. 1 has increased but it is not fair to say that ESL has, in fact, increased overall, budget to budget, when you take into account the money that comes from the Department of Education. Is that correct? Mrs. Mltchelson: No. Mr. Lamoureux: Explain "no." Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, all I can say is that our commitment as a province has increased over the last two years. There has been a decrease in the federal commitment to ESL programming, adult ESL programming. Our commitment as a province has increased.

Maybe in the overall total there has been a decrease to Red River Community College, but in fact that would be a combination of federal and province, and in fact the provincial contribution has gone up. •

(2050) Mr. Lamoureux: So if I read what the minister is saying, is that over the past number of years ESL has increased overall, that in fact yea r over year-and that is what the government was trying to portray to the public-it has not increased year over year. Is that correct? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, year over year there has been an increase, and I indicated that last year there was an extraordinary effort on the part of the provincial government to pick up the federal shortfalls.

We indicated at the time that we would not be able to continue that, that we wanted the federal government to come back in. The federal government has indicated that there is another $500,000 there for adult ESL training over and above what they have put in this year. To date, we have not heard from them where they are going to spend that money. We are trying to determine whether in fact-and I will tell you, if they put that into Winnipeg School Division No. 1 , we would have certainly a major increase. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I do not want to belabour this point, but I do want to confirm-or maybe seek the advice of the minister. She says that her department has increased it by $200 ,OOO year over year to ESL. If I take that at face value, and I believe she is correct on that sense for her department, are there any other departments that contribute to ESL other than the Department of

1995 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 1991 Education that I should be asking the same question? Mrs. Mlt chels on: All right, Mr. Deputy Chairperson. Back to this complicated system. Yes, there is more provincial money. There is less federal money. The federal government cut back their contribution to ESL programming, but the provincial government has increased. Yes, there is $200, 000 more provincial funding in ESL programming today than there was two years ago. An Honourable Member: In your department? Mrs. Mltchelson: Total overall. Mr. Deputy Chairman: I just have something would like to have clarified by the minister. Right now we are dealing with Adult ESL Programs,

(1) Salaries, which is $301,600. I noticed the questions corning forward are corning about grants, which come under Other Expenditures and Grants Assistance. Is that clear? Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Okay. From now on I would ask the honourable members to keep the questions relevant to the Adult ESL Programs, that is Salaries and that is the managerial positions. If you will go on page 65 it is also Professional/Technical and Administrative Support. Once we have passed that line we can move on to the grants that are within the following lines. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I know many of the ministers, with the exception of the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), there is some flexibility when you are dealing with an (

a) and (

b) because it is the same staff. If it is okay to continue on, I would continue on, but if that is the case, then we can pass-- Mr. Deputy Chairm an: We have been going line by line. I am just ruling that we go line by line. If the minister wishes to go another way, that will be fine, but I have asked that we go line by line. If the minister wants to-- Mrs. Mltchelson: I guess I might ask whether there are questions on the staffing, and then when we will pass it, we will pass it. Fair enough. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Is that agreed? Mrs. Mltchelson: Sure. Mr. Lamoureux : Now, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, where was I? Mr.

Deputy Chairman: Somewhere on grants. Mr. Lamoureux: The minister kind of threw a left ball on that when I was trying to get things a bit clarified for myself. We were saying that there is $200,000 that this departrnent- Mrs. Mltchelson: That this governrn ent- Mr. Lamoureux: That this government had in increase. How much of an increase year over year has this department then had on ESL? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this department has had the responsibility for ESL programming since the beginning of this fiscal year.

At the end of this fiscal year and with next year's budget, we will be able to determine what the increase or decrease will be. This department previously has not had responsibility for ESL funding. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, can the minister answer the question in terms of last year? This area of the department-what it was that was allocated compared to this year and how much of an increase? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, that cannot be determined because last year it was gross revenue, and it could not be factored out what portion of the federal money went to Red River Community College or it went to Winnipeg School Division No. 1 . In fact, this year we know what the province is putting into Winnipeg School Division No. 1, and we know what is going into Red River Community College. We know what the federal government is putting into Winnipeg School Division No. 1 and what they are putting into Red River Community College.

So, in fact, next year we will be able to determine, but we cannot even begin to determine because it was all gross revenue from the federal government in the past. It will not be in the future. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, do you mean to tell me that the provincial government cannot say how much money they spent on ESL last year? Mrs.

Mltchelson: We can indicate the gross expenditures and we can indicate what was recovered from the federal government, but we cannot indicate what was recovered from the federal government for Winnipeg School Division No. 1 or what was recovered for Red River Community College. Mr. Lamoureux: How much was recovered from the Government of Canada?

May 13, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 1996 Mrs. Mltchelson: Last year, $919,000. Mr. Lamoureux: How much was allocated out in total, combined from the province and the feds? Mrs. Mltchelson: $2,270,000. Mr. Lamoureux: Okay, thank you. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is hard to work with figures that are being thrown at you and trying to piece this thing together. I cannot-the budget that went to Winnipeg No. 1 last year was how much? Mrs. Mltchelson: The total that went to Winnipeg School Division No. 1 last year was $1,617,000. Mr.

Lamoureux: What type of a percentage split did the government have going to Red River? Mrs. Mltchel son: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, if we had known that, we would have given the answer before. What we are saying is that we recovered from the federal government X number of dollars. We do not know whether that recovery was based on recoveries for Winnipeg School Division No. 1 or recoveries for Red River Community College. Mr.Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I believe we have hit a brick wall. All we know is, $919,000 came from the federal government. The government of Manitoba had a choice.

They could have put all $919,000 to Red River. They could have put all of the money over to Winnipeg No. 1. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am told there was a different formula at that time and that in fact the feds paid for different programs, different places- Mr. Lamoureux: Out of the $919,000? Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes, Mr. Lamoureux: I thought it was all one general revenue. Mrs. Mltchelson: It went to general revenue, but it was what the federal government determined that they would provide for ESL programming overall. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, when did the minister learn about the government proposing to cut CIL T? Mrs. Mltchelson: It was an announcement one day at the end of 1989-90 that the funding was cut and it was cut that day. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, when did the government in Manitoba first discuss the matter with the federal government, their concerns, approximately? Mrs. Mltchelson: I would imagine that they would have gotten into discussions immediately after the announcement was made by the federal government.

There was no forewarning to the provincial government that the CIL T program was going to be terminated. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I know I was supplied a fact sheet as no others were when we went to the town hall up in the north end at Tec-Voc School. On that fact sheet, if I can find it here, I believe that Michael Wilson had announced that this program was going to be terminated effective April 1, 1990, back in April of '89 during the budget. Is that not true or did that happen or would that fact be wrong on the fact sheet? *

(2100) Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am informed by staff that there was no previous warning that there was going to be a change, that the CIL T agreement was terminated and that CEIC took over the funding at a reduced level by taking money from other training programs from the province and putting it into ESL. Mr. Lamoureux : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the actual fact, and I found it, said that on April 27, 1989, the Honourable Michael Wilson announced in his budget that effective April 1, 1990, the Citizenship Instruction Language textbook agreement with the provinces will be terminated.

Again, I do not know how factual this fact sheet is that was distributed to us. I would ask the minister: Is this then the first time she would have heard that, or the department? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I was not the minister responsible for ESL training at the time. The staff are informing me here today that, in fact, in April of 1989, it was announced by the federal government that Secretary of State through the CIL T program would no longer be funding adult ESL programming. In fact, CEIC would be taking over redirecting money from other training programs in the province.

This is what I am being informed tonight was actually what happened. Mr. Lamoureux : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the reason why I ask is because no doubt after hearing about this announcement, different provincial departments, different provincial governments, would have expressed their concern to their federal counterparts. One would assume that they would start negotiating what would be replacing the program.

1997 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 1991 Now the minister herself has said that the feds have made a commitment of $900,000 for this year. She has made reference that there is a possibility of $500,000. Where is she getting that $500,000 figure from? Mrs. Mltchelson: Earlier this year, I guess it was in November of 1990, the federal Minister of Immigration-it was then Barbara McDougall-and now it is $200 million for the next four years from CEIC for ESL training. Mr. Lamoureux: The $500,000 is a percentage in relation to the overall-- Mrs.

Mltchelson: $30 million was to be allocated for the fiscal year in '91-92. If we really looked at what our share should be for 4 percent of the population, 4 percent of that $30 million, we should be entitled to 1.2 million dollars from the federal government. In fact, federal officials have indicated to us that we are entitled to some $500,000 out of that $30 million allocation.

We are trying to determine-it has not been announced where that money is going to go-we are expecting that the federal government will live up to its commitment and provide another $500,000 which is probably less than what our fair share is, but I certainly would not say no to the $500,000, if, in fact, they were to put it in the province of Manitoba. It is important for all of us to realize and recognize that the federal government removed its $1.1 million a couple of years ago. They redirected programming money and, in fact, now they have made a commitment of $500,000 publicly to Manitoba.

We have not seen the money yet. I think it is important for all of us, as a province, as those that are delivering the programs, and those that are in need of adult ESL training to ensure that we all work very hard to let the federal government know that we are very disappointed to date in the shirking of their responsibilities. In fact, we want to know when that money is going to come to Manitoba. Those are the questions we have been asking. To date, we have not had an answer from the federal government. Mr. Lamoureux: The federal government is going to be distributing $30 million a year.

Our 4 percent, if you will, works out in and around $1.2 million-- Mrs. Mltchelson: Exactly the money they took away under the CIL T agreement. Mr. Lamoureux: But it is expecting or hoping to receive $1.4 million. Mrs. Mltchelson: Where do you get the 1.4? Mr. Lamoureux : We are currently receiving $900,000 and she is hoping for another $500,000, so I get the 1.4. Is she aware of any other provinces getting their percentage, at this point, of the total population? Mrs. Mltchelson: It is believed that there has been a commitment to Quebec so far.

We are not aware and we do not have any definite assurance that Quebec has received any money. We are trying to get that kind of information and we do not have that as yet. There is nothing that we are aware of in any of the other provinces to date. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would think that following the announcement from Mr. Wilson a couple of years ago the government should have been in communication with their federal counterparts in order to argue for, at the very least, our fair share which would be the $1.2 million.

I would anticipate that we will be receiving that additional $300,000 to bring us up to our percentage of what we are, in fact, entitled to. I wanted to move on to some of the other remarks that were put on from the minister when she was trying to explain where ESL is in fact being taught. She made reference to the noninstitutional Applied Linguistics and this is 100 percent funded from the federal government. Are there any plans at all, whatsoever, of the provincial government moving in that direction? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, at this point in time I have not even contemplated that, no. Mr.

Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, is there any criteria whatsoever that is set to the teachers, or whoever is teaching ESL, at these institutions? I know it is not her responsibility but she might know, or her staff might know, if in fact they do have to have, for example, teachers' certificates. Mrs. Mltchelson: For clarification at what?-Red River Community College or- Mr. Lamoureux: Applied Linguistics. Mrs. Mltchelson: Applied Linguistics. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I do not know what the requirements are. We do no t directly fun d Julia Boone.

Apparently, staff indicates that there is some understanding that they do have university degrees but we have no responsibility. We do not do any funding to Applied Linguistics and, you know, I am

May 13, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1998 sure the federal government could justify why they are funding in that direction. *

(2110) Mr. Lamoureux: The government has, through Winnipeg School Division No. 1, estimated 4,000 seats for ESL. If you take into account the noninstitutional and other school divisions, do we have an idea in terms of how many seats there are available? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we cannot give that-when it is noninstitutional it is pretty hard to determine, but I can indicate that in the other school divisions that we fund there are approximately 800 seats throughout all of the other school divisions.

I indicated we funded those and there are approximately 4,000 through Winnipeg School Division No. 1. The other seats, I do not know. (Mr. Bob Rose, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Chairman, I do not need it right away, but if the minister can make available at some relatively early future date within the next couple of months, that is, the number of seats at each school division, I would appreciate it. I do have a couple of other questions regarding the school divisions.

Does Winnipeg No. 1 currently have to pay anything for their seats, administrative or teaching costs over and above what the province and the feds are giving them? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I am informed that we are paying for administrative costs, books and materials and teachers' salaries. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Chairperson, does Winnipeg No. 1 have to contribute anything in order to keep the program going, other than providing the building?

Do they have to pay for any of the administration, supply, any receptionists or anything of that nature, or are in fact all of the costs picked up by the province and feds? Mrs. Mltchelson : Mr. Acting Chairperson, we believe that we do pick up all of the costs. Mr. Lamoureux: I am a bit surprised. I did not quite expect that answer, but I am glad to hear that in fact is the case. Mr. Acting Chairperson, I did receive a letter from the teachers of English as a Second Language in Manitoba earlier today. Actually, it was addressed to my Leader.

It brings up the concern of an individual who works or had worked with the Department of Education. His name is Abe Peters. There is some concern in terms of what is happening to that particular position. He was an ESL consultant for the Manitoba Department of Education and Training. Many of the teachers who had close association with Mr. Peters, from what I understand, said that this particular individual was a very valuable asset to have, to consult with and so forth. Was that one of the positions that was transferred over? Mrs.

Mltchelson: That is a position that still remains or is part of the Department of Education. So that information would have to be asked of the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach). We have seven positions that were transferred over--all seven filled positions that are currently within my department. Ms. Cerll ll: I have been going through some of the correspondence that I have, and one of the questions it raises was-I am going to read into the record. Prior to the election in 1988, the federal government announced a $15 million budget for the EWP program nationally, English in the workplace.

These funds are targeted for women in the workplace. What portion of this allocation has actually been used each year since 1988 is not known. Can the minister provide any clarification to that? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, that is funded by the federal government, and the information on that program would have to be obtained from the federal government. Ms. Cerll ll: The other issue that this correspondence raises is the difference in the costs per student at the different programs.

Can the minister and her staff clarify, to their knowledge, what are the different costs per student at the Red River programs, at the programs co-ordinated through the seven staff in the department and at the Winnipeg School Division? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, at Winnipeg School Division No. 1 for the year 1990-91, the per pupil cost is $2. 70 per hour. I do not have a responsibility for Red River, but I think I could provide the information there. Apparently the cost per student at Red River is $4.89 per hour. The federal programs, I have no idea.

1999 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 1991 Ms. Cerlll!: Can the minister clarify, to her knowledge, what is the reason for the difference in the cost? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I cannot indicate what the differences are for the costs. I know what the costs are. I imagine it might be overhead costs. Ms. Cerllll: It would seem that the government then has opted for the bargain in terms of the Winnipeg No. 1 seats, which are $2.70 per hour as compared to the Red River program. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I think we have opted for quality.

I would like to hear the member opposite's comments on whether, in fact, she believes that the program that is being delivered through Winnipeg School Division No. 1 is not quality, because we have clearly indicated that the standards are good. She may agree to disagree. Maybe if she were in government she would opt to pay $4.50 per student for adult ESL training when you can get quality with good standards for $2.70. That might be the NOP policy but, in fact, I believe that the teachers in Winnipeg School Division No. 1 are delivering a quality program at $2.70 per student. Maybe the NOP position is different.

Ms. Cerll ll: I guess the issue is, as we have heard, that the program at Red River was a different program. It was servicing individuals who were working, who had different needs. I guess I am trying to address the question of what is happening to those individuals now? How are their needs being met? They may be working, they may be in a different situation than the people in the Winnipeg No. 1 program. The fact is that they are without classes and the waiting list, or the demand for the other courses, is going to increase. *

(2120) Mrs. Mltchelson : Mr. Acting Chairperson, they are not going to be without classes because, in fact, the program will finish, and those who are in the program presently will finish their year. What we are saying is that there were some who were maybe receiving classes at Red River who could very well fit into the generic program at Winnipeg School Division No. 1 . Red River will only be doing the specialized ESL training and programming that is market-force driven. Those who were going to Red River who can fit into Winnipeg School Division No. 1 will be obtaining their training there. Ms.

Cerllll: We started discussing this point before, where I realized that the program is not terminating in mid-year, but there will be an increased demand due to immigration for ESL, and we are going to have less spaces in the province. Mrs. Mltchelson: We are only going to have less spaces if the federal government does not come through with their money. They have promised $500,000 to the Province of Manitoba. If, in fact, they do not deliver on that promise, then, yes, there will be less seats; but there should be a way that $500,000 can be used very effectively in the province of Manitoba for ESL training.

We are trying to get answers from the federal government. I wrote to the minister, Barbara McDougall, when she was minister. We now have a new minister in Ottawa, and I am in the process of communicating with him and asking the same questions that I asked of Barbara McDougall. (Mr. Deputy Chairman in the Chair) If that money is delivered by the federal government, we are living up to our commitment as a province. If, in fact, the federal government does not come through, you may see longer waiting lists.

If, in fact, the federal government delivers on its promise-and it should because it has removed money in the past. We are asking them to come back with what they rightly should be funding in the province of Manitoba. Ms. Cerllll: In the meantime, while the negotiations with the federal government are going on, the province has chosen to eliminate the program at Red River, which, I understand, had staff that were fully certified and under a collective agreement, and they put the money into a program at the Winnipeg School Division where the cost is less expensive and the staff are on contract. Is that correct?

Mrs. Mltchelson: I do not know the reasons for the change. I do know that Winnipeg School Division No. 1 does deliver a very quality program. I would beg the NOP opposition to disagree that, in fact, a quality program is being delivered through Winnipeg School Division No. 1. I have every confidence in the ability of those teachers and the administration there to deliver a quality program with good standards. Ms. Cerll ll: I would ask the minister if she felt that the program delivered by Red River was not a quality program.

May 13, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2000 Mrs. Mltchelson : I have had no experience with the program at Red River Community College. I do know that I have met with the teachers from Winnipe g School Divi sion No. 1, with the administration, and I believe that a quality program with good standards can and will be delivered through Winnipeg School Division No. 1. Ms. Cerll ll: As I understand it, one of the programs that will be eliminated from Red River is English for Single Parent Immigrant Women.

Are there provisions with the program at Winnipeg No. 1 to provide for the other transportation costs, the child care costs, associated for these women to learn English? Mrs. Mltchelson: It is my understanding from staff that that is a program that is delivered by the Department of Family Services, not by the Department of Education. Any questions regarding that program should be directed to the Department of Family Services during their Estimates. Ms. Cerll ll: This is getting to be quite funny.

We have a minister who is claiming to be co-ordinating services under the Immigration and Settlement branch, and we are finding out that there are programs for English as a Second Language all over the place. I would suggest that these programs are not being co-ordinated at all. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I beg to contradict the critic from the New Democratic Party, but maybe she should get her facts straight before she comes into Estimates. That in fact is not an ESL program. Ms.

Cerll ll : Well, the facts that I have, which are sent from that program, from students in the program, I would think that they know where they are. They are at Red River, and they have sent this letter-granted, it is to the Minister of Education (Mr. Derkach)-outlining their concerns and why they think that their program deserves to be continued and the special needs that it was addressing. Mrs. Mltc hels on: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, obviously if the letter was addressed to the Minister of Education, it does not fall within my responsibility.

If it was addressed to him, it may in fact have been addressed to him in error. Staff informed me that it is the Department of Family Services that does deliver that program. Ms. Cerll ll: The point that I am making is not that the program is not a quality program at Winnipeg No. 1, but there may be some needs for other programs. I guess the question I could ask is: Are there provisions with any of the English as a Second Language programs that are being offered in the province to make allowances for people who have need for child care or are working different hours? What is the

schedule for the courses that are offered with Winnipeg No. 1 and with Red River? Mrs. Mltchelson: It is my understanding that with some of the federal programs that are available, there is the ability to have all of those things paid for under the program that is being offered by the federal government. The Winnipeg School Division No. 1 does have a day care program associated with their ESL training. Ms. Cerllll : Are those programs all during the day? Are there some during the evening, full time, part time? Mrs. Mltchel son: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I am informed that the day care program at Winnipeg School Division No. 1 runs during the day. Ms. Cerllll: What about my other questions I raised in terms of scheduling of the classes part time, evenings to accommodate people who shift-work, or different- Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, there is flexibility. In fact, some people do start in the day program, and then they might get a job part way through their training program so they can go to work and then they can transfer to the evening classes.

So there is flexibility within the program to be able to accommodate those who enter the work force or maybe become unemployed and can go back into day classes rather than evening. So there is that flexibility. Ms. Cerll ll: How about the programs that are co-ordinated by the seven staff, where the funding comes from, the federal government, the SLP and the language at work, and English for specific purposes, those programs? Do they have provision for child care or special transportation? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I am informed that those programs are very flexible programs, and there is money allocated for transportation for day care to meet the needs of the communities and the organizations that have applied for the grants for those programs. Ms. Cerllll : That is all federal money? Mrs. Mltchelson : Yes.

200 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 1991 Ms. Cerllll : If the federal government continues in the way that it is going, I would think then that the programs that they are co-ordinating are also more expensive than the program with the Winnipeg School Division. Could the federal government also decide that they want to put their money into one of the school divisions? Mrs. Mltchelson: I would imagine that the federal government could make their decisions, and they do make their decisions independently of the provincial government. They could choose to do that, yes, and we could not stop them. Ms.

Cerll ll: I am aware that the programs that are co-ordinated through the department staff are quite special, where there is a lot of attempt to reach people that would otherwise be isolated. Can the minister make any commitment to ensuring that those programs would continue, if the federal government decided to continue in its path of movi ng towards, as she is refe rring to it, noninstitutional settings? •

(2130) Mrs. Mltchelson: I could not commit today to picking up federal programs that have been completely federally funded in the past. I could not make that commitment. Ms. Cerllll: What I am learning is that, once again, individuals with special needs where the programs could cost more will suffer and not learn English if cutbacks to ESL continue the way that they have. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, our commitment is strong to ESL programming as a province.

We will not be able to pick up the federal portion and, I guess, if the member opposite, the NDP critic, believes that we should be picking up the federal portion for this program-and they have advocated many times in the past that we should be picking up the federal portion of many other different programs-I would like to know how much they would in crease the defi cit to provi de the programming to continue. As long as we continue to pick up the federal portion, there will never be a pressure on the federal government to maintain its fair share.

We just do not have enough money in the treasury in the Province of Manitoba to pick up all of the federal costs that are offloaded onto the province. Ms. Cerllll: I am not advocating that the minister let up on pressure on the federal government. That is for sure. What I am saying is to realize that when there are cutbacks, if we opt for the programs that are least expensive, then those people that have exceptional needs or are unique and are not able to access the more cost-affected programs are the ones who are going to suffer.

They could be the ones that really are at a disservice and really do need to learn English. Mrs. Mltchelson : As I said, a program that is 100 percent federally funded-if the federal government should decide to change the way they fund that program, I can almost assure the member opposite that we would not have enough money within the provincial treasury to pick up the federal costs. You know, I guess in her comments about opting again for a low-cost program, I believe that Winnipeg School Division No. 1 is providing a quality service to new Canadians that need ESL training.

In fact, I do not think that it is taking second best. I think we have a program that probably is one of the better training programs across the country through Winnipeg School Division No. 1. I would hesitate to say that it is not a quality service . Ms. Cerllll: In the Estimates book there is a line under Other Expendi tures called Grants. Where are those grants given? Mrs. Mltchels on: There are two grant lines. Right? Is that what we are talking about? There is Other Expenditures, grants and there is Grant Assi stance. You add the two of those lines together.

The grants at 225,200 and the Grant Assistance at 986,800 is the funding to Winnipeg School Division No. 1 for this fiscal year. Ms. Cerllll: So that shows a $600,000 decrease which- Mrs. Mltchel son: I attempted to explain before that the Adjusted Vote for 1990-91 is a gross figure because, in fact, the federal government flowed their money through the provincial government in this year's budget line. In 1992 budget year we no longer receive funding from the federal government. They are flowing their money directly to Winnipeg School Division No. 1, so it will not show up in our budget in the future.

It did show up last year and years before, but it will not in the future. Ms. Cerllll : So is that to say that before the money from the federal government was $600,000? Mrs. Mltchelson : It is my understandi ng that I think it is $560,000 difference, from last year to this year was federal recoveries.

May 13, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2002 Ms. Cerllll: The costs of the cuts at the Red River program, with the six staff, I think? Mrs. Mltchel son: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, those questions will have to be asked of the Minister of Education and Training (Mr. Derkach) because they do fall under his responsibility. I do not have responsibility for Red River Community College. Ms. Cerll ll: If I could have the indulgence of the committee for a moment I would like to take a moment to- Mrs. Mltchelson : Do you want a five-minute break? Ms. Cerll ll: Sure. Mr.

Deputy Chairman: Five minutes. *** The committee took recess at 9:37 p.m. After Recess The committee resumed at 9:46 p.m. Mr. Lamoureux: I had a couple more comments, or I should say questions, regarding ESL and then I want to make a summation, if you will, of some of my own comments, opinions on the ESL progham. I want to ask the minister-more so for clarity, because I know she has touched upon this in certain different ways-the money that comes in from the federal government for ESL, she has nothing, or her department has nothing to do with it in terms of the disbursement of those fees? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, that is correct. In the past, as I indicated, before this became my responsibility, the federal government flowed their money through the Department of Education. In fact this year they have changed their method of funding ESL to Winnipeg School Division No. 1 by purchasing seats directly in Winnipeg School Division No. 1, so their money will flow directly to Winnipeg No. 1 beginning this year. Mr. Lamoureux: The reason why I wanted to ask that, Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, is because, included in the facts that were supplied to me, they had included a copy of Hansard from the House of Commons and my federal colleague Mr. Axworthy had actually asked the then minister Barbara McDougall questions regarding the funding, and I would like to just quote what one of her answers was, and ask her to respond to it.

It is from the federal minister, in which it says: With the termination of the CIL T in April 1, 1990, the provincial government contributed in addition to its traditional level of funding $1.1 million to continue the co-ordinated system of ESL deliveries that existed in Manitoba. During the '90-91 fiscal year the federal CIC department purchased $900,000 worth of language training seats from the provincial government for government sponsored students. These seats were delivered by the Adult ESL Centre, Winnipeg School Division No. 1, and Red River Community College.

It seems to me that the federal minister does in fact know what money is to go where, and I would ask the minister once again is she aware of where the money has been designated? Because the answer that she gave to Mr. Axworthy does seem to imply that the federal government has decided where the money is going. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, for this year, yes, we do. We do know that they are flowing directly to Winnipeg School Division No. 1 $645,000. Mr. Lamoureux: So then the balance of that is going to the Red River College? Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes. Mr.

Lamoureux: Has the min is ter had any discussions in terms-I know the NOP critic had asked some questions regarding where the money should be going, and so forth. Has the minister had any discussions with her federal counterparts on where she would like that commitment? I will tell you why I ask. It is because the provincial government, on the surface, appears to have been switching their priority-I should not say, switching their priority, making less of a priority over at Red River College and making a higher priority over at Winnipeg School Division No. 1.

I do support what Winnipeg No. 1 is doing in terms of the per-pupil cost, in terms of the quality of teaching. I do support that. •

(2150) Has the minister had any of those discussions with her federal counterparts on where this government would like to see this $900,000 distributed? Mrs. Mltchelson: I think, and I would hope the opposition members would agree, that in fact we would like to see the majority of those who require ESL programming trained in the province of Manitoba. We as a provincial government provide

2003 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 1991 our funding to institutionally based programming, whether it be at Red River Community College or at Winnipeg School Division No. 1. In fact, we would like to see the most number of students possible trained and fluent in the English language. If in fact we have quality and standards through Winnipeg School Division No. 1 that can deliver that program, then I would think it would be incumbent upon a responsible government to flow their funds in that way. Mr.

Lamour eux: The Government of Canada seems, at least through this answer, to have designated $900,000 to two programs: ESL at Winnipeg No. 1 and ESL at Red River College. Is that true? Mrs. Mltchelson: Of the $900,000 that they have reprioritized for ESL adult training, yes, I do know that they fund the other programs that we talked about earlier. Through other direct purchase, through noninstitutional programs, I know they put money into that also. We have discussed those already.

Out of the replacement of the CIL T agreement that they discontinued, the $900,000 that they have reprioritized for adult ESL, is going into institutionally based at Winnipeg No. 1 and Red River. Mr. Lamoureux: We are getting $900,000. It is being distributed out to Winnipeg No. 1 and Red River. If that is in fact the case, then the federal government has been contributing more than the $900,000 to ESL if we take a look at the noninstitutional, such as the applied schools and so forth. Mrs. Mltchelso n: Yes, and they always have.

What we have indicated is that when the CIL T agreement was in place, besides the noninstitutional programming that they were doing, they were providing $1. 1 million for institutional ESL through the CIL T agreement. They took that $1.1 million out of the province of Manitoba, they redirected money from other training programs in the Department of Education and Training and focused a priority on ESL with those dollars. So in fact those dollars were going to do other training programs, and they were refocused to adult ESL.

There was a net loss of $1.1 million to Manitoba as a result of the discontinuance of the CIL T agreement. Mr. Lamoureux : When ultimately she herself or her department sits across the table from her federal counterparts, will they argue legitimately so for that $1.2 million, which is Manito ba's fair share -(i nter je ction)- Mr. Deputy Chairperson, her colleagues have a lot of confidence in her, and I hope that that confidence can be justified come this time next year when in fact we approach this line, and we find out how much money has been contributed. -(interjection)- Mr. De put y Chair man : Order, please.

The honourable member for lnkster has the floor. Mr. Lamour eux: That is righ t. With this enthusiasm, I am sure she will get the full $500,000. One minister says, definitely, that is in fact what will happen. We will wait for it. When the minister and her staff do sit at the negotiating table, what is going to be the basis of their argument for that? Let us just say for the sake of argument that we get the 1.2 which works out to our share of the $30 million as pointed out from the minister. So let us say it is $1.2 million.

We have $900,000 as put forward by the former minister, Barbara McDougall, and confirmed from the minister, and that is all of the money that has been allocated thus far. So we are going to be attempting, or the department is going to be attempting to get an additional $300,000. What is their argument for that $300,000 going to be? Mrs. Mltchelson : Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I will read into the record parts of the letter that I sent to Barbara McDougall when she was minister, but I would hope that members of the opposition would not question the commitment by staff who work in the Department of Citizenship and commitment by staff to lobby as hard as humanly possible for federal funding to come to our province of Manitoba, because I have every confidence in their ability to negotiate and to negotiate strongly. Well, it is not that long a letter, Mr. Deputy Chairperson.

I would like to read it, because I think it is very important that the opposition know not only what we as government are doing, but what our staff are doing in negotiations with the federal government. -( interjection)- Mr. Dep uty Chair man : Order, please. The honourable minister is about to read a letter into the record, and I am sure we would all like to hear it. Mrs. Mltchelson: As minister responsible for services to newcomers in Manitoba, I am writing to bring to your attention a matter of serious concern for us both, and that is the decline in overall

May 13, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2004 availability of adult language training for immigrants in this province. Prior to the termination of the CIL T agreement by the Secretary of State on March 30, 1990, Manitoba had been able to en sure that there was ready acce ss to co-ord inate d institutionally-base d training which included, where necessary, on-site day care. The elimination of $1.1 million in federal contributions under the CIL T agreements has had a serious negative impact upon institut ionally-base d instruction in this province.

Wait lists have been created and future levels of funding remain uncertain. It is very important that the opposition members listen to this paragraph. In November of last year, the province welcomed your announced intention to provide an additional $30 million for language training in fiscal year 1991-92. We are hopeful that the allocation for Manitoba will be both appropriate to demand and fair in re lation to the all ocation to othe r immigrant-receiving provinces.

In this connection, I am therefore requesting that you provide me with a listing of the funding allocations for all types of language training to the major immigrant-re ceiving provinces, along with your department's projections on the level of immigration to ea ch of those provinces. March 11, 1991 : In recent years, immigrants in Manitoba have benefited from your important initiat ives in noninstitutio nal training.

Our respective officials have collaborated with notable success on the delivery of the settlement language program and are now working in close co-ordination on the implementation of language at work. Given these successes in the area of noninstitutional training, I am hopeful that we can work together to restore a situation in Manitoba in which there are stable and fair funding arrangements between the two levels of government which form the basis for institutionally based language instruction. Mr. Deputy Chairm an: The time now being 10 p.m., what is the will of the committee? *

(2200) Mr. Lamoureux: The minister has said that letter was sent March 11 , and she is asking for what funding has been allocated out to different sorts of ESL programs throughout the country, she says. If we have $900,000 for Red River and Winnipeg No. 1, there are Language for Work, English for specific purposes, English for medical, day care-she went through a list of different federal programs with ESL; but the minister herself does not know how much the federal government is contributing to these programs.

That would inc lude the Applied Linguistics, other noninstitutional ESL-taught courts, yet we do not know-and when I say "we" I mean the ministe r, the government-does not know how much the federal government is already contributing towards ESL in the province of Manitoba. She can be one month from now sitting at the table with her very competent and able staff. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I never question them; I only question the minister and her colleagues when it comes to persuasion and their ability to be able to get Manitoba's fair share. Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, with respect, when you are sitting at the table, the Government of Canada can say, well, we are contributing; we are giving you $900,000 for ESL for Red River and Winnipeg No. 1. We are also giving you $100,000 for this program, $50 ,OOO for that program, and so forth, and lo and behold, we exceed that $1.2 million, which is the bottom line from this government when it comes to getting their fair share of the ESL dollars. So let us say, for the sake of arguing; that in fact happens. What then will be the government's approach to the federal government?

Are they going to take the approach that we want to be able to -(interjection)- Mr. Deputy Chairman : Order, please. Point of Order Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Deputy Chairman, I can appreciate how you are confused with the questioning that you have just been exp osed to. We are de aling with the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship, not some future speculation around the federal government. I wish you would bring the member for lnkster to order to deal with the Estimates. Mr. Dep uty Chair man : Order, please.

The honourable member did not have a point of order. *** Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I know the limited capabilities of the Minister of Health. His colleague the Minister of Culture, Heritage and Citizenship (Mrs. Mitchelson) has a few more

2005 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 1991 capabilities and do not underestimate her abilities to be able to answer the question. So I once again put the question to her, and thank goodness it is not to the Minister of Health. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Order, please. I would like to just clarify for the record that it was the will of the committee then to sit beyond ten o'clock? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Deputy Chairman: Agreed. Mrs.

Mltchelson: I am not sure, it was sort of a long question with many different components to it, but I will indicate, and I will go back to the letter that I wrote, I have requested of the federal government to give me the information on all the programs that they presently fund in all provinces, and that would include what they fund in the province of Manitoba. The $30 million that was announced was new money, brand new money, for all of Canada, and what we are saying is we want that fair share.

I have asked the federal minister to clarify how much is coming to our province presently with ESL programs, how much is going to other provinces, and in fact how much of the new $30 million is going to come to the province of Manitoba? So we will have a base line and my staff in negotiations will have that kind of information to negotiate further funding for ESL. Mr. Lamoureux : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, when does the department plan on starting the negotiations? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, the federal government has not released its budget for CEIC as yet, but our officials have been meeting with federal officials, suggesting ways that money could be used in the province of Manitoba. There has been no final decision. Mr. Lamoureux : Does the government support the federal party's or your federal counterpart's position policy on the noninstitutional funding for ESL? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the federal government I guess has traditionally. We have as a province fu nded institut ional programming for ESL, and we will continue to do that.

I guess we would like to see a commitment whereby institutionally those who require service will receive service, and I guess there are special programs and special needs programs that in fact can be funded by the federal government and are being funded. What we would like to see is the majority of Manitobans who need ESL training, receive it. I would imagine there has to be some flexibility within the program so that the needs of different individuals are met. Mr.Lamoureux: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I believe I can virtually conclude on this particular line in the sense that the numbers and figures are somewhat complicated, at very best, and I think at this time next year, I am somewhat hopeful-and I see the thumbs up-that we will get a better idea in terms of the status of ESL in the province of Manitoba. I hope I did not get anyone in trouble by making that comment.

I did want to conclude by saying that this should be one of the highest priorities of this particular department-is English as a Second Language training, because from many communities, it is the single most important issue for them. Unless you allow our immigrants to be able to learn English as a second language, if they do not have that capability, they are going to be put on an unlevel playing field. That is not only unfair to them, it is unfair to society as a whole.

I would encourage the government to get what figures it can for the next Estimates process and wait with anticipation to find out what happens then. Also, if the minister can get back to us as an interim, through the mail if we are not in Session, just to give some type of an update when she has a clear picture of the ESL, I would appreciate a copy of that. Sometime in the next few months would be fantastic. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would just like to comment.

I do agree with some of the later comments that have been made by the member for lnkster when he says that it is very important to ensure that new Manitobans and new Canadians, who do have a language barrier that prohibits them from participating fully in Manitoba's society, should be provided the opportunity to have ESL training and programming. I will indicate too that, yes, this is a brand new responsibility. I do have the responsibility for Winnipeg School Division No. 1 and the other school divisions throughout the province for Adult ESL programming and training.

It has been very difficult for us to answer the questions on the numbers, admittedly so, for what has happened in the past. In fact I did indicate that the federal government did flow money through the Department of Education-a very complicated process.

May 13, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2006 I have spent many, many hours since I have accepted this responsibility in Winnipeg School Division No. 1 trying to determine what happened in the past. I will reiterate again that I will be held accountable. I will be pleased to be held accountable next year, in next year's Estimates, for what has happened this year and what the outcome of next year's budget process will be and the support by the provincial government for ESL programming in Winnipeg School Division No. 1 .

I am also equally pleased that-and you know some people may disagree and I may by next year disagree too, but it really makes it much simpler for me as a minister to have the federal government flowing its money directly to Winnipeg School Division No. 1, because they can be held accountable then for what they are doing with institutional ESL programming. I do not know if it is the most efficient and effective way as yet, but that will be determined. It is something they have decided to do, but in fact I look forward to the time where the numbers make sense.

I know that by next year's budget process, the numbers will make sense. As to what is in last year's budget line, as compared to this year, you are really comparing apples and oranges, because we cannot compare a new delivery sy stem to something which happened in the past. *

(2210) If I could give easy, simply answers to percentages, I do know that the provincial commitment has increased. Over the last two years, we have had an increase of some $200,000 to ESL programming overall, whether it is through Winnipeg School Division No. 1 or Red River Community College. Those numbers can be argued, but I do know that there is more of a provincial commitment. I do know for a fact that the federal government took $1.1 million out. I look forward to them putting more money back in.

Whatever delivery method they might choose to use, we will give them suggestions on how we best feel as time goes by through the negotiations, how we best feel the money could be utilized in Manitoba. I want to reiterate that our commitment is strong to provide ESL programming, and I do also want to say again that we are not going to be able to pick up the federal government's share. What we have to do is put pressure on at the staff level, at the ministerial level.

I look forward to meeting and communicating with the new minister, federally, to see what his thoughts, where his priorities are, and how we can try to accomplish the best possible service for ESL programming so the most, the greatest number of Manitobans that require the service will receive that service. Ms. Cerll ll: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I must say that I do have a clearer picture of where the money is coming from and where it is going to and what some of the problems are. So it has been helpful, if somewhat painful, but helpful. I would like to- Mrs.

Mltchelson: If I could just interject there and say, no more painful for you than for me over the last couple of months. Ms. Cerllll : I would like to try and wrap up the discussion on this

section by asking the minister to go back to the concept of what would she like, what would the minister like, to see in terms of the flow of money from the federal government? Where would the minister like the money to go? Mrs. Mltchelson: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think I have answered that several times in several different ways, but I will try again to indicate that I would like to see the majority of Manitobans who require English language training at the adult level, so they can integrate most fully into our Manitoba society, receive that kind of programming.

I do not think it has to be through one specific program completely because I think there are different needs based on whether people are wanting to enter the work force, whether they are wanting to contribute, whether they have young families entering the education system and they want to be able to communicate in the English language, whether they are people who have been here for several years and are wanting that kind of programming so they can better understand and better communicate with all Manitobans. I believe that there are different vehicles to provide ESL training.

I believe that Winnipeg School Division No. 1 does, at this point in time, have a very good program, a quality program with good standards. I have been over to visit the students and the teachers who are delivering the program in the school setting. The excitement and enthusiasm among the students and the teachers is heartwarming. I would recommend to all members of the Legislature to take the opportunity to do that when they can.

2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 1991 I honestly believe that it can be delivered in different ways based on the needs of the community and the needs of the in dividual. Ms. Cerll ll: I asked the question trying to get a sense of the minister's vision, if you will, of what kind of a system is going to meet the needs that she is talking about, and her ans wer was that she wants to see all the people in the province that require English as a second language training receive that training. My question is how.

We have listed a number of programs, and I am starting to understand how they all fit in, from the Applied Linguistics program which receives federal money, the settlement language program, the workplace program, the school division, Red River. Where, from all of those places as well as her own department which has seven staff which co-ordinate money which comes from the federal government, where would the minister like to see the money, the $1.2 million from the federal government, go? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I might have some thoughts and some ideas on that, but I cannot ind icate clearly at this moment, given that this is a very new responsibility, in that I have not had the opportunity to understand the whole delivery system as yet what I believe is the best method. I do know that, in fact, we believe at this point in time that Winnipeg School Division No. 1 does provide a quality program.

We have concentrated our efforts, but over the period of the next year, before the next budget process, I intend to do some consultation within the communi ty to ensure that I have a good understandi ng of what the needs are and try to attempt to understand them and try to make some sense of the delivery system which has been so very complicated to figure out over the last couple of months, in my mind any way. I could not say today where I would want that $1.2 million all to go.

I think it is a process of staff working with the federal government and me pulling together a branch of Citi zens hip and in cludi ng ESL programming along with the Immigration and Settlement aspect, so that we are working together in a co-ordinated way to try to determine where future dollars should be spent to most adequately serve the community that we are trying to teach English to. Ms. Cerll ll: The minister has talked about trying to get a better understanding of the needs in the community.

I wonder if, with the help of the staff who are here, she could explain what needs have been identifi ed, if there are some things that are bei ng prioritized that are needs among the immigrant community, what plans are there to try and do this needs identification. Mrs. Mltchelson: We will be addressing that in the very near future, with staff and I sitting down and getting the briefings on what has happened in the past, where we feel our best resources can be allocated to lobbying the federal government to ensure that we get out fair share.

I guess, along with that, I might in dicate that negotiations leading up to a federal-provi ncial agreement on immigration would-one of the things we want to see in that agreement is federal commitment of funding to providing services to new immigrants. That would all be part of the agreement that we will be attempting to negotiate over the next period of time. It is important that staff within Immigration and Settlement and staff within ESL programming all come together under one division of the department to ensure that we are working closely with the community to assess what the needs are.

That assessment has not been to date looked at in the context of both of those areas being in different departments. I look forward to the challenge ahead, to working with those who have some experience and expertise in not only negotiating with the federal government but also in dealing with the community to deliver the programs that we have in place presently and those that we will be developing in the future. Ms. Cerllll: If there is one thing that these Estimates are revealing is that there is still some work to do in terms of co-ordinating.

There is not co-ordination of ESL services under the new branch of Citizenship. I made reference to programs at Red River which the minister has said are actually offered or funded through Family Services. I would think that if the minister, the critics and the people in volved in these Estimates are confused, you can imagine how confused people in the community are. As the minister said, she has been studying this process for a number of hours since she took over the responsibility.

I would think that there needs to be some evaluation of the way that programming at Red River and at the school division have been split. I wonder if there will be an evaluation of the new system that is evolving in ESL.

May 13, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2008 *

(2220) Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is the ne w funding system , and I have ex pressed confusion and I know the critics have expressed confusion too over this process, but I guess as confusing as it is, it is still held up across Canada as one of the best delivery systems. If you can see how confused we are, there are other provinces obviously that are having more problems. I know that in the province of B.C. there are many, many more immigrants who require access to ESL training, and they are unable to get it.

We certainly are not there, but if the system that we have is held in high esteem across the country as being one of the most co-ordinate d, and we are moving to co-ordinate a little better, just think what we may have a few years down the road. Ms. Cerllll: One of the other things that I am finding surprising and quite an admission to make is that the progra m that is co-ordinated under this minister's department, which has seven staff involved in it, the amount of money involved in that program is not known. I find that shocking. There are a lot of people in the department who are working on the program.

I would think if they are involved in co-ordinating services from the grants, that the department would have to know the money involved from the federal government. I would hope that within the ne xt short time, even the next week, that the minister could provide that information to the critics. I find the numbe r of programs offered through the department-it just should be known how much money is involved. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, as I have indicated before, it is a federal government grant program. The federal government allocates the funding directly to the communities.

I have indicated that we have seven staff. They do not all spend eight hours a day five days a week dealing with the federal noninstitutional programming. They have other roles and responsibilities too in co-ordinating the programming in the curriculum at Winnipeg School Division No. 1 , so there is a major task there. What I have indi cated, out of the goodness of our heart as a province, we are providing staff assistance to communities to help co-ordinat e their applications to the federal government for that funding, and I think that the questions could be asked directly of the federal government.

I do not know how much of our staff time should be taken up right at this point in time. I have asked the federal government for the figures and the numbers on money that has come to Manitoba in the past, and I would hope that they will provide that for us. When I get that information from the federal government, I can share it. Ms. Cerllll : From what I know of the programs that are offered through the Settlement Languag e Program, the language-at-wor k program, that it is a very unique model, very much community-based, where the community is involved in even, as I und erstand it, selecting the teacher.

I think that is a wonderful model. I was wondering if the ministe r could clarify then the number of staff and their function in that program. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am informed that there are two staff within that seven staff compone nt who work liaisin g with the community, helping the community to assess their needs and apply for the right programs from the federal government and do some evaluation of those programs. There are two staff that do work on that out of a component of seven.

I guess the question that I might ask of the opposition at some point to maybe comment on would be that, obviously they feel there is a very worthwhile component to the noninstitutional programming and that the communities do tend to develop that based on their needs. Is there a suggestion or a recommendation coming from the opposition that we get out of institutional and go to community-base d funding for ESL programming? I am just wonde ri ng if that might be a recommendation that is being put forward for consideration. Ms. Cerllll : I think we have to be careful at what we are calling noninstitutional.

The things I like about this program is that the pa rticipants-it is le arn e r-ca nt ere d, if you would, to use an educational term, as I understand it. The other thing I like about the program, as I und erstand it, there is an outreach component to it. You can correct me if I am wrong- I see the staff are lo okin g questioningly. Mrs. Mltchelson: My understanding is that there is not an ongoing outreach but, in fact, once the community does apply or show interest in wanting to access a program, that is where the outreach component does come in.

2009 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 1991 Ms. Cerll ll: What are some specific populations that have had their needs met, or specific target groups that have had their needs met through that program? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, my understanding is that there are many different communities that have benefited. There is the southeast Asian community, the Punjabi community. It could be a women's orgnization--immigrant women, seniors, an ethnic seniors organization that could apply. I can get a little bit more information on the types of organizations that have specifically benefited, but it is a broad cross

section of the community. Ms. Cerll ll: I guess I am not only interested in finding out the types of organizations but the types of students, the types of individuals who are benefiting. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I will attempt to get that information from the federal government and provide it. Ms. Cerll ll: Again, I would think that information would be in the department since those are the staff who are doing the co-ordination work. Mrs. Mltchelson : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, those staff are not here right at the moment-those who came from the Education branch.

I will get any information that they can give me on any work that they have done with any of the communities and provide that. Ms. Cerllll : Could the staff who are here advise the minister of the number of teachers who are employed under that program? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, no, but we can attempt to find that out. The provincial government does not hire the teachers. The community hires the teachers with a federal grant that they receive, so, in fact, it is not information that would be readily available here tonight at committee, but we will attempt to get as much information as we can. Ms.

Cerllll: I am interested in finding out the qualifications of the teachers who are involved in that program. Mrs. Mltchelson : Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I think that maybe what the NOP critic should do is get her NOP counterpart at the federal Parliament level to sit in on the Estimates of the minister responsible at the federal level and ask those specific questions to get that information because it is a federal government grant program.

To indicate that we should be accountable for what the federal government puts into grants and programming in the province of Manitoba is something that does not fall under my jurisdiction. Ms. Cerllll : I guess I would like to think that the minister, provincially responsible, would have information and that the department would have that information. Mr. Deputy Chairman: 4.(

c) Adult ESL Programs:

(1) Salaries $301, 600-pass;

(2) Other Expenditures $301, 60 0-pass;

(3) Gr ant Assistance $986,800-pass. Item 4.(

d) Multicultural Secretariat:

(1) Salaries $231,000. "( 2230) Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, this is one of the areas that I have a number of questions in, two or three-- Mr. Deputy Chairman: Order, please. Could we just take five minutes to change around? Mr. Lamoureux: Sure. Mr. Deputy Chairman: A five-minute recess. """ The committee took recess at 10:31 p.m. After Recess The committee resumed at 10:40 p.m. "

(2240) Mr. Depu ty Chair man : Order, please. The committee was dealing with (

d) Multicultural Secretariat:

(1) Salaries, $231,000. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I would like, at this time, to continue on with what I had started I guess about a couple of hours back regarding the Outreach Office. I was saying that the Outreach Office is a step in the right direction. We were glad to hear the announcement back on May 15, 1990, and I believe the question I had asked the minister is, where is the location and when do we expect the doors to open? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, the location has not been finalized as yet and when that is, an announcement will be made.

As a matter of fact, we have held a competition which has just closed, and there have been many applications from the community that have come forward during the

May 13, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2010 competition process. There will be a major task in volved in screening those applications and determining who will be hired. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I know that the different groups, different ethnic groups in particular, were fairly happy to hear about the announ cement of the Outreach Office. The commitment was back in May of last year. It was reiterated during the last provincial election. We are now almost a year-a couple of more days and it will be one year. What is holding up the process? Mrs. Mltchel son: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I guess since the announcement in May, there was a provincial election campaign. We were re-el ected. During the election campaign, we were in the process and we did, in fact, open the secretariat office. We have that up and runni ng and now we are on to one of the other commitments we made when we announced the policy. Not all of the commitments or all of the things that we indicated were going to happen as a result of the policy. The action plans were initiated all at the same tim&-- the process of a period of time. That office will be opened and will be up and running.

When we come to the final decision on location and staffing, those announc ements will be made. (Mr. Ben Sveinson, Acting Chairman, in the Chair) Mr. Lamoure ux: Good eveni ng, Mr. Acting Chairperson. Has the government actually looked into any sites as yet? If they have, what sites? Is it government buildings currently, or are they looking at leasin g arrangements from the private sector? Mrs. Mltchelson: I think there have been several options that have been presented. There has been no final decision at this point in time.

I would not want to in dicate where those locations or what options are being reviewed at this point in time. When the final decision is made, we will make that announcement. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I know some governments tend to announc e things and reannounce them and reannounce them. We have already had a couple of announc ements on this particular office. I am hoping we are not going to hear two or three more announ cements before we actually see something materialize.

My question may be a bit more to the point: How soon can we anticipate an announc ement, a final announcement that is, for the opening of this office? Are we looking at a year? Are we looking at two weeks? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr. Acting Chairperson, I would venture to guess it certainly will be considerably more than two weeks. We advertised fully with an ope n competi tion. That process, when you advertise in the ethnic media, does take a little longer than just advertising in the mainstream media. There are some ethnic papers that only publish once a month. We did full advertising .

In fact, the process did take a little longer than it normally would to run the ads. The competition has closed now, and we will be evaluating those applications and getting down to a final process. It takes a period of some months and I cannot indicate that it will be two weeks from now, but as soon as we are ready we will make that announcement. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Acting Chairperson, can the minister tell me how long it usually takes from the closing of an application to the hiring process? How long of a period are we looking at from the closing before the indivi dual is hired? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Acting Chairperson, I think it probably varies throughout government as far as the screening process goes. I will just check and see what the averag&-- (Mr. Marcel Laurendeau, Deputy Chairman, in the Chair) Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, normally speaking, it would take about four months. As I indicated, this is a little longer process because, in fact, we had to advertise in the ethnic media. If there is just any indication of how they have responded, there are some 800 applications that have come in for two positions.

There will be a screening process that will take a considerable period of time to go through those applications and pick a short list. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I am very impressed, and I am wondering how well it would have worked had we done that for all of the different positions that we have filled. Can you imagine the number of applicants that we would have had and how many people would have been eager to take some of the positions that were being handed out from this government?

The reason why I ask, of course, is in flipping through the Free Press one day, March 30 to be more specific, I did come across one of the ads, and I was very pleased to see it. I also did see it in some of the community papers. Again, I commend the

2011 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 1991 minister for doing that even though if there is a criticism that could be leveled, I guess it is that it could have been done earlier-not wanting to let the minister off too easily on it. If it takes, let us say, an average of four months, it should then be safe to say that we are looking at toward the end of the summer when we will see the office open up. Is that not a fair assessment to make-or at least the staffperson to be hired? Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, as I have indicated, it is government's prerogative to make those announcements when the times comes, and I will do exactly that. Mr. Lamoureux: That is quite right, but it is also the opp os ition' s prerogative to ens ure that the government keeps on track and that we do not do things for alternative motives. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, speaking of advertising, I know in our last Estimates there were some questions-and we put most of those questions forward regardin g the appointmen ts of the Multicultural Secretariat's office itself.

At the time, there were two policy analysts, one who came up through the Civil Service, another one who was appointed. Now in asking the questions back then, I was assured that this was an appointment only because there was not enough time to fill the position and that, in fact, it will go through the Civil Service. It will be advertised and that position will be fulfilled in much the same fashion in which we are trying to fill the position of the Outreach Office. Naturally, as a follow-up to that, I would ask the minister if we have a new person in that position. Mrs. Mltchelson: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, we do not. We have the same person still on an acting basis. I did commit to an open competition, and there will be an open competition. I believe if you look back at Hansard from the last set of Estimates, I did indicate that after the Outreach Office opened we would be advertising that position. *

(2250) Mr. Lamoureux: I cannot recall hearing the comments regarding-after opening the Outreach Office, but I will have to reread it, I guess. The minister 's comments at the time were something to the effect that the position comes up at the end of December and that you likely would not have enough time to advertise by thattime. So what you would like to be able to do is to extend it for another three-month term position. Did you in fact extend it for three months ? Mrs. Mltchelson: Yes, Mr.

Deputy Chairman, and all term positions throughout government are extended on a three-month basis and then have to be re-exten ded. You know, that can be done more than once. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I asked the minister why it is that she would have to wait for the Outreach Office to be opened before that position can be advertised? Mrs. Mltchelson: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we have a person in that position that is functioning and performing duties fairly well at this point in time.

When in fact we deem it advisable to advertise, and I will not continue to say that it will be after the Outreach Office opens . If, in fact, it is a prolonged period of time, we may advertise or bulletin sooner. I am not going to make that commitment today. We will determine as time goes by when the proper time will be, and we will bulletin accordingly. Mr. Lamour eux: You know, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, inevitably every government, of whatever political stripe, does change. We saw that in Ontario after 42 years of Tory governments. We will see that in this government; hopefully, it does not last 42 years.

When there is a change in government, there are certain positions that are lost, certain appointments that are not reappointed. In fact, there are numerous amounts of severance that is given in order to replace individuals. The government has made some appointments that many would question, including myself, and if this government was replac ed by another government, I think what she is doing or what she is leaving open is a dis turbance over at the Multicultural Secretariat's office because of the manner in which those positions were filled. I think that is a disservice to the multicultural community.

Whether it is true or not, the perception is that they were politically based appointments, at least two of the three appointments. If there was a change in the government, I would suggest that those positions would have to be looked at. I do not believe that it is a positive thing for these positions, because these are positions that should be apolitical. Would she agree with me on that? Mrs. Mltchelson: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I can guarantee, if we have a Con se rvative

May 13, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 2012 government in the Province of Manitoba for 42 years, that I probably will not be here at the end of the 42 years, but nonetheless -(interjection)- You will have to roll me in my wheelchair. Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I guess we have to take a look at, you know, people of all political stripes, and there are people who are Liberal and NOP, I will admit, and Conservatives that have made major contributions to the multicultural community over the last number of years. I do not thin k that contributions to the community belong to any one political party.

There are people out there who have a political affiliation but are very credible members of the community, whether they be Conservative, Liberal or New Democrat, or have no political affiliation whatsoever. I believe that we have a person who has had a long commitment to the community, and I think the perception out there in the community is that we have a person who is competent and capable of doing the job.

I guess I might ask what the Liberal Party policy right at this point would be, that if they were government tomorrow, the critic could guarantee me that there would be an open competition to fill absolutely every position, and if he felt there were people who maybe, at this point in time, had a political affiliation of some sort, if they would be severed immediately if there was a Liberal government in power and if they would hold an open competition for absolutely every position that was to be filled in the new government. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I am in fact introducing a resolution to deal with political appointments and would encourage the minister to read the resolution, and she will find out exactly what not only my position is, but the Liberal Party's position is on political appointments. We had debated this at length in the last Estimates-the appointments-and ultimately agreed that we were not going to agree in how the office was established and how it came about. It is important that I do say that we do support the office of the Multicultural Secretariat, much like the Outreach Office. It is a very good idea.

I think it would have been better if we would have allowed it, like the Outreach Office, to be open for competition. It is not to say the current director would not be there. In fact, he could have stood equally as good a chance as anyone else applying, but unfortunately there is something, a public perception out there, and I believe in the public perception on this particular issue. What is the government's policy for the Multicultural Secretariat when it comes to events, social events and so forth? Is it government policy to have people from the Multicultural Secretariat at these events, and if so, why? Mrs.

Mltchelson: Mr. Deputy Chairperson, it is the responsibility of the bureaucracy whether it be in the secretariat, whether it be in the Wo men's Directorate, whether it be in a government department that if, in fact, there is an event or an activity underway, it is in the best interests of the bureaucracy that is serving the community to attend events. In many instances, if a minister cannot be available to an event that he or she is invited to, some one from the Civil Service goes and represents the minister.

Very often my deputy will represent me, and if he is not available to go, someone within the department, at whatever level it might be, will go and represent government. That is a policy that has been carried on from government to government. It is in the best interests of the community and the secretariat to know who is out there, what the issues of the day are and how government can best serve those needs. Certainly it is government policy. That has not changed from one government to another, and it is common practice, I would say, at every level of government. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr.

Deputy Chairperson, I would be interested in knowing if there is, in fact, a protocol that the minister uses. For example, if she is unable, does she go to her colleagues first, the deputy minister, to the Multicultural Secretariat, to another branch, or does it depend on the event and then a decision is made at that time? Mrs. Mltchelson: These decisions are made on an individual basis. If it is a multicultural event, obviously it would be the priority of the secretariat. If it was a cultural event, it might be the Director of Cultural Resources.

If it was a Historic Resources event, it might be-and if it was outside the city of Winnipeg it might be Regional Services staff for the department, one of the Regional Services staff who might live in that region of the province that has extended an invitation to government. It is on an

20 13 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 13, 1991 individual basis. The decision is made on an individual basis, on a case-by-case basis. *

(2300) Mr. Lamoureux : The Outreach Office is going to have fixed hours, I take it, when it is going to be open. The Multicultural Secretariat's office, does that have fixed hours for being open? Are the staff there from 8 to 5 or 9 to 6, whatever-9 to 5? Mrs. Mltchelson: Staff are there from 8:30 until 4:30. Mr. Lamoureux: Was there any name change in the classification or a different classfication? I know you had two policy analysts. Do you still have two policy analysts? Are those the official titles for the positions? I had heard at one function I was at that there was in fact a change.

You now have a community liaison officer. Is that true? Mrs. Mltchelson: They are both still policy analysts. Ms. Cerllll: I will pick up on one area that my Liberal colleague was asking about and that is the relationship between the minister and the various staff in the secretariat and the department. I wonder if the minister could give a

summary of the events that she has attended in the last couple of weeks or month, particularly just in the area related to multicultural concerns Mrs. Mltchelson: I would have to go back to my appointment book to get that kind of information. I know I went to the anniversary at the Casa Du Minho Portuguese Centre and an event of the Manitoba Parents for German Education. I went to an activity at Point Douglas School last week. It was Multicultural Education Week, and several of the classes were presenting information on their countries, on their background, their traditions and their cultures.

I attended that function. It is hard to remember off the top of my head, but those are three in the last couple of weeks that I have attended. Ms. Cerllll: I would just be curious to do some comparison between the events that the minister is attending and the events that the staff are attending. I see the staff at a variety of events. Could the minister put together a list like that? Mrs. Mltchel son: I think, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, we could pull together a list like that. I know some of my colleagues have attended events too.

I think the member has to realize that in my varied responsibilities for the Status of Women, for the multicultural community, for the department of culture, heritage, recreation, citizenship and lotteries, I could attend events seven nights of the week. Sometimes on some evenings I have invitations to two or three different activities. I have invitations rolling in on a regular basis from all parts of the province to attend different functions. If, in fact, I cannot attend because I have made a previous commitment because of some of my other responsibilities, staff do attend.

Some of my colleagues do attend on my behalf. I have daily invitations, sometimes two or three in one day. Ms. Cerll ll: I guess I would just encourage that there be some protocol because with this area too, there is a perception out there, because of some of the issues that the member for lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux) referred to, with the nature of the appointments to the secretariat, their being political appointments, that there is some questioning of how the staff from the secretariat are being utilized by the minister in terms of attending events. I am wondering if the minister is aware of that.

I assume that by the line of questioning the member for lnkster was taking, that this was one of the things that he was investigating. Mrs. Mltchelson: Well, Mr. Deputy Chairperson, I guess the motives of the secretariat are questioned in the minds of the opposition.

I would imagine that any community out there that has an interest in multicultural issues and has a government person who is responsible for co-ordinating government activities throu ghout government regardin g multicultural issues would welcome as many people as possible to attend events, to be able to discuss with them issues that are of importance and are of concern. If members of the Multicultural Secretariat cannot feel comfortable going to any event that either the ministe r is invited to or they are invited to themselves-and I know the secretariat does receive invitations on their own.

Even if I get an invitation, the secretariat often receives an invitation to go to event s also. Maybe politically the opposition is questioning, but I would feel that the more information the secretariat can share with the community, or the more they can listen to the community express the issues that are affecting them, obviously the better we as government are going to be able to serve the community.

May 13, 1991 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 20 14 Ms. Cerll ll: I am simply reflecting impressions that I have had from members of different organizations and from people active in ethnocultural communities with respect to that. I also just want to ask some general questions about the activities since the last time we had a chance to sit down over Estimates, of the secretariat, maybe a

summary of the major accomplishm

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	35-2-42b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	35th 2nd hansardpdf 42b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	23edd0ef365f4fc0ee6388362794f5e19e779343

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