VOL. 3 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 2:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. TUESDAY, MAY 16, 1978 NO. 61 ' I I I r .

May 16, 1978 Tape No. 3182 NM- 1 The House met at 2:00 P.M. ~r. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. Minister of Health. MR. H. COLLINS : Mr. Speaker, I 11ould like to take this opportunity to~pprise han. members of the cu~ent situation in Daniel's Harbour 11here a number of cases of tuberculosis have been identified in recent weeks. SOME HON. HEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. H. COLLIN~: I would like to thank all han. members for that. I am advised by my officials, Mr.

Speaker, that seven persons from the Daniel's Harbour area are receiving treatment for tuberculosis and a further three persons are under investigation at the Western Memorial Hospital. The first cases 11ere detected in February and March of this year and the subsequent cases have been uncovered as a result of the follow up contacts of these cases by our public health team. The department is currently ~rranging to provide additional medical and public health nursing ·assistance to the area in order that the follou up of all possible contact cases be speeded up as much as possible.

As well arrangements for the provision of transportation for adults from Daniel's Harbour to attend the Eonne Bay Cottage Hospital for chest x-rays are bein£ made. The availability of such transportation will be publicized at the local level. Mr. Speaker, I would like at this time to advise all han. members that it is au~ wish that the public in Daniel's Harbour co-operate with the doctors and the nurses who are in the area so that suitable follow up procedures can be followed.

I would also like to reassure the House that the Department of Health and the government can be proud of, and Newfoundlanders should be proud of the fact that the tuberculosis

~lay 16, 1978 Tape No. 3182 NM - 2 MR. H. COLLINS: level in Newfoundland is continuing to reduce and I believe with the co-operation of everybody that we will be able to bring this cluster of an outbreak - if one would want to refer to it as that, under control. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, just one or two comments on the ministerial statement made by the hon. gentleman, Sir.

This is indeed a serious situation and the hon. gentleman said that he would like to get the full co-operation of the people of ~aniel's Harbour and I think the reverse is probably true, Sir, the people of Daniel's Harbour would like to get the co-operation of the minister and his officials. Hon. members ll ~ may not be aware but the situation in Daniel's Harbour reached .. such grave proportions that they had to form a citizens committee and after sending a couple of registered letters .to the minister and to the member they finally had to get in touch with the Opposition to try to bring this matter to a head.

And I am glad now, Sir, that their efforts have been successful and that the minister finally has seen the seriousness of the situation in Daniel's Harbour and he and his officials are doing everything they can to try to remedy the situation as best they can under the circumstances. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! As I understand it, ~~der Statements by Ministers, the hon. minister may make a statement and then the spokesman for the Opposition may make a brief comment on it and may ask for explanation. In asking for explanation, obviously, a person is entitled to give the explanation asked for. MR.

NEARY: No way (Inaudible). MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! But when the comments are limited to comments then I do not think under this procedure of ministerial statements that I could recognize the hon. gentleman back again. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear!

~..ay 16' 1978 Tape No. 3182 PRESENTING PETITIONS: HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Fogo, CAPTAIN WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present a petition from the citizens of Fogo Island. The petition is from the Fogo Island Improvement Committee Limited and residents of the Island.

The prayer of the petition is as follows: "The growth of the economic base of Fogo Island is largely dependent upon - one, the rapid transportation of fish and other produce and materials over ~~ell serviced dust free roads; the rapid transportation of fish produce going to and from fish plants on or off the Island for further production; as little deterioration of Fogo Island's produce as possible as it is transported on land and sea; and the NM- 3 convenient transportation of residents to and from medical and commercial establishments; the convenient transportation of residents to schools, churches, social gatherings, both formal and informal; the . growth of the secondary industries and businesses of Fogo Island are largely dependent upon the convenient and direct transportation of fuel, food and other commodities to the IJ

;-,ay 16,197d Tape l~o. 3183 Ali-1 liR.E.Wii-ISOR: ----- commercial establishments and homes of Fogo Island. We the undersigned residents of Fogo Isl&ld do hereby petition the government of Newfoundland and Labrador that the recommendations proposed in the 1accampanying brief"- I may add, Mr. Speaker, there is a brief attached II to this petition- be met and carried out during the present year, 1978 or as soon thereafter as is practical: Now, Hr.

Speaker, Fogo Island ilas become one of the most productive and prosperous . communities on the Northeast Coast and 1of course~people are suppressed by not getting the maximum out of the fisning industry that they should get because of a lack of proper transportation facilities. We can think of the road conditions on the island. Mr. Speaker, practically all of the fresh fish has to be transported across Fogo Island on very dusty roads especially during the warm weather season. ConseQuentlv: that fish cannot get to market in top grade_, so therefore, Mr.

Speaker, if for no otner reason I think it is about time for .the government-to encourage the people of. Fogo Island, bv providi~ them with some of the much needed facilities,especially in the transportation area. Now, Mr. Speaker, it may be worthy to note that we have in this House the Leader of the Opposition wnose ancestors came from Fogo Island and I believe there are relatives living there now. I think the Minister of Social Services came from Fogo Island and I am sure he will back this and support this petition. I a111 interested in a few notes in the brief, Mr.

Speaker, and one deals with the federal- provincial collllllunications relative to Fogo Island, to quote "It has been pointed aut by DREE officials ia both Newfoundland and Ottawa that tnere have been no communications or requests for financial backing for upgrading of the islands transportation systems from the Government of Newfoundland and Labrador to any department of DREE.

Inasmuch as DREE has held the improvement of Fogo Island roads and docking facilities as a priority for some time we believe it is the responsibility of the provincial government to make whatever arrangements are necessary to release tnese funds that DREE is prepared to spenO. on Fogo Island."

Hay 16,197_, Tape No. 3183 AH-2 HR.E.WINSOR: Nov, Mr. Speaker, I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this statement.~owever.it is noted in the brief and I am pretty sure that the Minist~r of Transportation,who I might add is familiar with this brief and with this petition and I might thank him now for accomodating a aelegation which I believe he saw on Friday to discuss this whole matter, but, Mr.

Speaker, if this is correct then surely there is something wrong with the communications between our provincial government and the department of DREE and if that be the case I would humbly request that steps be taken immediately to overcome this serious obstacle. In summing up, Mr.

Speaker, what they are requesting for Fogo Island is that all roads be brought up to a level of safety and convenience that benefit the majority of Newfoundlanders by rebuilding the unsafe or inadequate portion of the island's roads where necessary, paving of all highway surfaces for which the Province is responsible, paving of roads in the residential areas, installation of suitable guard rails - that is a very important thing, Mr. Speaker, there a~e very few if any guard rails to protect the travelling public and therefore I would suggest that this too be given government approval. Mr.

Speaker, I support this petition and request that it be placed on the table of the House and have it referred to the department to which it relates. Ron. member for Eagle River. Mr. Speaker, I stand and support the prayer of this petition. I know the situation well on Fogo Island having first been involved with it in 1967 when at that time there was a process under way to resettle Fogo Island. I am glad to have been involved in that process which maintained Fogo Island as a viable community, and further .,

~l ay 16, 1978 Tape 3184 EC - 1 MR. STRACHAN: being involved in 1973 when Fogd Island was in a desperate financial situation. Now, five years later, Fogo Island is probably one of the most efficient, one of the most viable community areas in this Province due mainly to the people themselves - not people from outside of Fogo, but the people of Fogo themselves, the fishermen and especially the Co-operative in Fogo and the people in Fogo who work to try to make it a viable and economic community and who try to make their life there.

I understand full well the problems that I faced in 1973 in trying to shuttle fish across the island from the different communities - from Tilting, Deep Bay, Island Harbour, Stag Harbour and the problems that we ran into because Fogo Island had received little commitment in the way of funds from government to try to get them on their feet.

They were struggling and have been struggling for many years on their own trying to build up what they have and for that alone they should be 8iven the greatest compliments in the world that they did have the pride and the dignity to stay there and fight and to work and make a good living for themselves and become a very well off group of communities in Newfoundland.

I support the prayer of the petition because I believe that until Fogo Island does have the facilities and is encouraged by funds and availability of funds to develop further processing, the finished product processing, they will continue to have to send off Fogo Island,elsewhere,the fresh fish in fillet form. And I was involved in 1973 in getting to the fillet form and to the skinless form, and in fact, we were at that time supplying the fish plant in Twillingate.

Hay 16, 1978 Tape 3184 EC - 2 MR. STRACHAN: And I believe in Fogo Island unless they move to the finished product, that is, to the frozen product, and obtain their own markets then the Co-operative on Fogo Island will always continue to struggle 1 to 7ry to make ends meet and keep moving ahead. I think that the roads and the situation in which some of the fish is carried across from Fogo Island to the main plants in Seldom and Joe Batt's Arm need to be remedied and should be remedied if only as

an act of faith of this government on behalf of people on the island who have worked extremely hard over the last ten years to remain on Fogo Island and to create a viable c~mmunity. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, I feel it is incumbent upon me to support this petition presented by the han. the member for Fogo (Capt. E. Winsor). It is true that I was born on the island, Barr'd Island, and I have seen it come from a very remote part of our Province to a very successful and viable island.

It is interesting to note that the island was slated for resettlement some years ago and up until approximately a year ago a large number of the residents of the island were in receipt of some form or other of welfare - not necessarily social assistance, but various forms, and I understand from my officials that during the past year there has been practically no welfare whatsoever on the island, or none of any significance. So it has come a long way, mainly, . J. R f II

~fa y 1 6 , 1978 Tape 3184 EC - 3 liR. BRETT: ------ I suppose, because of the el!lph:asis placed on rural. Newfoundla'IId by th·is government and also~ as the hon. the member from taprado ·r mentioned just now, the initiative · of the people themselves. I think they have more or less pulled themselves up by their bo6tst~aps. Ther~ is no que$tion of the need for improvement in the transportation system 1 particularly i.n roads.

I take great pleasure in going back there at least once a year to visit the old homestead, and the dust, as on all gravel roads, is annoying to say the least, and I am sure that this government will continue to place emphasis o.n rural Newfoundland, and as far as I am concer:ned I would like to see them place a little bit ~tra on Fogo Island. 1.R . SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Conception Bay South. MR. NO.LAN: Mr . Speaker , I rise ver y brie f l y to sup port the petit i on as presented , t og ether wi t h th e brief attached, by my bon. friend from t he Fo go Isl an d I mprove ment Committee .

As has been ind i ca·ted by my bon. frien d oppos it e, the Mi ni s ter of Soci al Ser v ices a nd t he mem be r for Ea gl e River (Mr. Str a cha

n) who are ve r y, v er y fa mili ar with th e commu ni t y as a who le ove r ~ 1' ! I 'i !~ i ~ ~ .I I J 1

May 16, 1978 Tape 3185 PK - 1 Mr. Nolan: a great number of years plus, of course, the work that has been done in the last few years. I think we have a situtation here where the people have demonstrated by their own initiative and drive when in some instances perhaps there were those who may not have given them even a break-even chance.

Who would have thought a few years ago that they would have come to the point where they are today in spite of some adverse circumstances, some very real genuine difficulties~ And I think that the people there had to face a very important decision, and that was where would they go from where they were at that time? How would they improve their community, not only for themselves but for their families?

Now people ," of course, not only in Fogo Island but in other communities as well can only carry the ball,as it were,so far on their own, and then it goes to those of us who are involved in public life to demonstrate (1) to what extent we are aware of the problems they have, the work that they have done on their own. And to what extent- we are familiar with it here in this House of Assembly or in government departments and are prepared to give the back-up to help them increase their situation even better than it is at the moment.

The lack of proper transportation as has been mentioned by my hon. friend is outlined in the petition as one that we have to look to. If in fact, as has been stated, there is a breakdown in communications between the Department of Transportation provincially, on the one hand, and DREE on the other. well we have to get to the bottom of it to find out if what is implicated or implied here is a fact. I mean1 has there been no approach from the Department of Transportation provincially, to the Department of DREEi if not, why not? And let us find out exactly what the situation is there.

But the people in Fogo Island beyond the shadow of a doubt have indicated quite clearly that they are prepared when the chips are down to do their share. And we are all familiar with that. And now I think it is up to us to do our share to, first of all, acknowledge the fact, and to record the fact of what they have done for themselves, with some, of course, provincial and federal assistance, but principally because of their own initiative. And now it is time for us to demonstrate that, one, we appreciate what they have done, we are aware of what they have :I

May 16, 1978 Tape 3185 PK - 2 Mr. Nolan: done, and not only that, but we are prepared to back them even further so that the facilities there will be improved, and so that we will have a greater utilization of our fish stocks and so on. And I am sure the Minister of Fisheries woUld certainly endorse that. I believe there are some twenty-odd miles of road approximately, dirt road at the mom~nt that need improvement.

And I hope that we can look forward to something concrete coming forward to give the people heart ,that their petition is not one that is laid on the Table of the House so that a few like myself can stand up and say a few words and then it is filed away. So I hope that we will hear others present address themselves to this petition so ably presented by my hon. friend, and it is also acknowledged by our friend the Minister of Social Services today who was born in the area. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Tri~ity Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to support the petition presented by my friend and colleague, the member for Fogo (Capt. Winsor), Sir, for the improvement of transportation facilities on Fogo Island. The member for Fogo, Sir, mentioned a number of reasons why these transportation facilities should be improved, amongst them the people getting back and forth for medical purposes, schools, churches, social gatherings and different jobs sites and so forth.

But, Sir, I think the most important point that the member mentioned was this,the fact that Fogo Island,obviously,exists as such because of its closeness to the sea and the fisheries itself. So, Sir, the improvement and the paving of the dirt roads on Fogo Island is certainly not pavement for convenience sake, it is pavement out of necessity. Now,the Minister of Fisheries has mentioned on a number of occasions that the fishery, and we agree with him entirely on this, is one of the S:J.}.vations for this Province.

And he, in fact, Sir, said that it is the desire of his administration to make ~ewfoundland and Labrador the fishing capital of the world which is a plagiarism from the Leader of the Opposition, I believe, Sir. But besides that, Sir, ~ r. '

:ray 16, 1978 Tape ~o. 3186 tm- 1 }!R. F. ROWE: ttie fact is that if we are to make this Province the fishing capital of the world, and I think we can, one of the most important thin2s we have to do with respect to the fishery is quality control.

And I submit, Sir, that trucking fish over miles of dirt road with the dust and the vibration and the :1eat in the middle of the Summer certainly does a lot of harm to the quality of the fish even before it reaches the processing plant,and any transportation off the Island after processing must cause further damage and the qualitY of the processed fish must be further damaged. So, Sir, it is in that sense that I submit that this is not pavement of convenience but pavement of necessity if ~1e are to keep quality control with respect to the processing of our fish and the export of our fish, Sir.

So I, ~thout any hesitation whatsoever, give my full support to this particul~r petition. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. l-IR. I~. ROWE: Sir, I would like to add a brief word of support to the petition. It is not an ordinary petition merely asking that the government pave a road for the convenience of the people as my hon. colleague from Trinity - Bay de Verde (~!r. F.

Rowe) said, the normal tyPe of petition, it is a petition which goes right to the heart of the need for the upgrading in the quality of our fish production in this Province, among other things. . ~ Also,of course,it would be a great convenience to the residents of the area. So I would like to support thi.s petition sent in by the Fogo Island Improvement Committee and backed by the residents of the various communities on Fogo Island.

It holds a dear spot in my heart, that Island, Sir• As the hon.·member for the district said, ancestors of mine on both sides of the family, my grandfather came from Seldom Come By and my grandmother, the woman he married finally in Le~sporte, came from Joe Batts. And I try to get out there t~ henever ,.

~fay 16, 1978 Tape No. 3186 lr.-1 - 2 HR. H. RO'WE: I can, have a visit and talk to - MR. NEARY: Little did they know that they were going to spawn tha next Pr~ier of this Province. MR. H. RO'WE: That may be right, Mr. Speaker. I never thought of that. I must go down and tell them.

As a matter of fact the hon. member and I are going to go down in a week or so and attend, as we have done, it is becoming a bit of a tradition, as we have done before go down and attend the speech night of the Central High School on the Island there, right in the middle of the Island and that is always an enjoyable occasion and also meet with friends and relatives down around there. The rapid transportation of fish, Sir, over ~ood roads is a vital necessity.

Anyone ~~o has driven over t~e road where the fish has to be transported from, right around the arm there - CAPTAIN TNINSOR: The fishermen are losing thousands and thousands of dollars. MR. H. ROWE: That is right.

Losing thousands of dollars, as my han. colleague-says, Sir, having to transport that all the way around the arm and up through the Island to get it I to the ~ainland portion of Newfoundland here, Sir, is a very first of all a very expensive and second of all I cannot see how fish can survive it in one hundred per cent shape and therefore •,;e should try to do v7hatever He can to help in that regard. .j The other point I would like to say ~ about Fogo Island, Sir, is the way the people, as other hon. members h~ve ~entioned, the way the people of the communities t here determine t~eir mrn. fate.

Hhen I took over the Department. of Community and Social Development the turn had already come really but for the years before that, several years before that, there was a definite drive on the Island, as my friend has mentioned, my friend from Eagle River, for a lot of the people to move off the Island. They ,!

:ray lG, 1978 Tape Z·:o. 3186 li:l - 3 !lR. W. ROWE: felt remote. They felt they did not have the services. They were going to move off the Island and also,of course,because of the low standard of economy there at the time~ The economic life of the area was not all that good. The people themselves, aided and abetted by people like my friend from Eagle River (Mr.

Strachan), the Extension Department of Memorial University played a role there as ~~ell •nth these movies and films and so on that they p~t out which I believe played a large role in giving the people there a sense of identity, a feelin~ that they could,in fact,determine what was going to happen.

By the time I took over the department I, think the dye had already been cast and the people there had decided that they would not move off, they would continue to try to provide a good livelihood for themselves and their families where they were and, of course, that was a ~ronderfully sensible and good decision made by the people there and we are seeing it now with that Island and the communities there being one of the more prosperous parts of our Province, on the northeast Coast. A word, Sir, about the breakdown in communication ben•een this Province and DREE accordin~ to the Fogo Island Improvement Committee.

Perhaps the minister might have something to say about that. Why that should be? Why are we not getting DREE funds for the roads there' especially since it would appear to be an economic necessity? And secondly, Sir, . ,' finally I should say, in the last 1 !

May 16, 1978 Tape 3187 ~c - 1 MR. W. ROWE: election, and I am reliably informed by the winner of the election in that district in the last election the Progressive Conservative candidate made a speech, read a telegram in which he said the government was going to spend $1 million starting right after the election on that road, Sir, to upgrade and pave the remaining roads on the island. As far as I can determine - the hon. member can correct me if I am wrong - not anything near $1 million was subsequently spent on the island on those roads. Would that be true? CAPT. WINSOR: No, Hr. Speaker. MR. W.

ROWE: No, Sir, I have not seen any evidence of it myself.

So perhaps we could see a combination of two things here - the minister and the gover"ment themselves keeping their commitment to spend the $1 million on upgrading and paving the roads, and a better effort made to attract federal funds since we are talking about an economic necessity as well as a social convenience so DREE could get in there with its funds as well and thereby upgrade and pave the remaining roads on that island, not only, as I say for the social convenience, but also to cake sure that the quality of the fish produced on that island is preserved as far as transportation is concerned.

I wholeheartedly support this petition, Mr. Speaker, and think it is the kind cf a petition which should have the support of every member of· the House of Assembly. AN HON. MEMBER: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, I want to rise in support of this petition presented by my colleague from Fogo (Capt . E. Winsor). i I J I" I ! . ~

~!ay 1 6, 1978 Tape 3187 EC - 2 HR. CALLAN: 'i7e have heard about the possibility of having DREE funds do this road. It reminds me again ' of a

section of my district where I feel- have felt for the last two or three years - that DREE funds should have had the road upgraded and paved because it is so vital to the fisheries on Fogo Island as it is in my district. Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Social Services in supporting the petition mentioned the fact that hardly any welfare cases exist on the island. We are glad and happy to hear that. Again I am reminded of a

section of my district where there is 100 per cent employment. I am thinking of the town of Adeyton again where pavement,of course, and upgrading is needed. Mr . Speaker, I had the privilege of teaching school on Fogo Island twenty years ago, in Stag Harbour. I was principal; I spent ten months there or a year, whatever you call it - a teaching year. I spent a year twenty years ago when I was eighteen years old - I was principal of a three room school in Stag Harbour. At that time, Mr.

Speaker, there were a lot of fishermen there - a lot of shepherds even though there were net nearly as many sheep as there are over in the district of Harbour Grace - a lot of Sheppards, the surname of the families -a lot of fishermen -but at that time, Mr.Speaker, only t~vo cars. I remember there were just two cars in the community. One of the reasons for that, of course, was because of the poor road system. But I remember, ~r.Speaker, that a lady used to come up from Joe Batt's Arm- a lady who used to teach at Joe Batt's Arm who had some friends at Stag Harbour used to drive up in her car.

So twenty years ago a road existed between Joe Batt's Arm and Stag Harbour, through Seldom, of course, or just tipping l

Hay 16, 1978 Tape 3187 EC - 3 MR. CALLAN: the edge of Seldom as you drove by. The daughter of the late Ted Russell used to come to Stag Harbour and visit periodically in her car. So those were the only vehicles that existed in that particular part of the island twenty years ago. So I am a little bit surprised, Mr. Speaker, to hear that here, twenty years later, they still do not have an adequate and a good paved road system throughout the Island of Fogo. Mr. Speaker, I remember the road between Stag Harbour and Seldom was a rather poor road.

I remember, a friend and myself went down in February, as a matter of fact. We did something that today is only done during Christmastime, we travelled on a one horse open sleigh down from Stag Harbour to Seldom. And if it were not for the moonshine we had with us I think it would have been a much, much colder trip. But the road system at that time, Mr. Speaker, was bad. Cars could barely get over it, but here, we have it twenty years later and still the people are crying out for an improved road system. n ..

Hay 16,1978 Tape No. 3188 AH-1 :·!r. Speaker, I cannot help but support the prayer of this petition. Hon. member for LaPoile. }!R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I support the petition so ably presented by my hon. colleague the member for Fogo, Sir, I cannot say that I have any relatives on Fogo Island and neither did I teach school there but it is interesting to note that every member who has spoken so far I, think,nad some connection or some relationship with Fogo Island.

I think I can claim some kind of a connection with Fogo Island.When I was l1inister of Social Services, Sir, that is where we carried out the pilot project for a year before we implemented one of the greatest reforms ever implemented in this Province and that was paying people by cash instead of by voucher, the people on Social Assistance. SOME HON. ~!EMBERS: Hear, hear! Mr. Speaker, I am rather shocked to hear well I suppose I should not be, that there was a telegram read at a political rally down there prior to the 1975 election - CAPT. WINSOR: Not a rally. ~Y.!. Just a telegram read out? MR. W.N.

ROWE: Just read out. CAPT. WINSOR:. To the people on strike. ll i MR. NEARY: -----· - that the government would spend $1 million in upgrading the roads on Fogo Island. I do not know who signed the telegram, Sir, bn the government side. If it were the bon. the Premier then we can understand why the project was never carried out. We have a similar situation in my own district of Port au Basques. ~!y bon. friend wrote me the other day in reply to a letter about the road to Grand Bay West and said there were no commitments. Well there was a commitment made by the Tory candidate and by Mr.

Crosbie who was csmpaigning on behalf of the Tory candidate that the road to ~rand Bay West would be paved. So, Sir, this is just another example of a broken promise on the

Hay 16,19713 TApe No. 3188 AH-2 part of the administration. It is a project that is badly needed. I am also amazed, Sir, that they have not approached DREE for help to upgrade the roads on Fogo Island, Having been born and raised and worked and lived on an island practically all my life, Sir, I can understand the feelings of the people of Fogo Island. I would like to hear now if the minister - yesterday none of the ministers took

part in any of the debate that took place on petitions, I hope the minister today will rise in his place. SOME HUN. ~!EMBERS : Uh, Oh! ~ NEARY: Not debate, Sir, but discussion, dialogue, communication. I hope the Minister of Transportation will not act under instructions from the Premier and act as a mute, that the minister will get up and tell the people of Fogo Island NR. SINHONS: Like he did on the iloat last Summer. ~-NEARY: On the boat, that is right.

That he will get up and tell the people of Fogo Island that there is help on the way, that assistance is forthcoming and that their roads are going to be upgraded and put in a safe condition so tl~t people can transport their fish back and forth and take their kids back and forth to school in busses and so forth and so on. So I have no hesitation at all, Sir, in supporting the prayer of the petition. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, I feel it my duty to rise and support this petition.

I had not planned to in view of the yeoman effort that DIY colleagues and I made in the past couple of days in presenting petitions - SOME HON. MENBERS: Hear, hear! MR. LUSH.: - and attempting to get members from the government side to rise and support these petitions. We could not do it, Mr. Speaker. But in view of the great similarity in the petition presented today and the one that I presented yesterday asking for similar requests that the road be paved from Port Blandford to Musgravetown, Cannings Cove and Lethbridge to Portland Brook and that area, the same reasons given, Mr. Speaker, economic n

May 16,1978 Tape No. 31S8 Ali-3 l1R. LUSH: reasons and social reasons. The economic reasons being to facilitate the fishing industry on Fogo Island, to be able to get all the economic benefits from that industry that we can get. , Certainly the upgrading of the roads and the paving of the roads is necessary so that we can get the full benefits from the fishing industry there so that we can have good quality fish to insure, Mr. Speaker, that the fish is not chowder before it gets to the marketplace.

So this is the emphasis of this petition;that we reconstruct, pave these roads so that the fish can be moved over the roads without any harm, certainly a most reasonable request, a necessity. And also,of course,far the social reasons, for the convenience of the people who have been suffering hardship and inconvenience for year after year due to the bad conditions of these roads. Hr. Speaker, I wholeheartedly support the petition. MR. SPEAKER: - -- · Han. member for Lewisporte. Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to presen~ ~ netition signed by - AN HON. ME11BER: It is a new one is it? MR. WHITE: It is a new petition.

If anyone else wants to speak on this one - 1-

May 16, 1978 Tape 3189 PK .., 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh~ MR. NEARY: Did you send it collect? AN HON. MEMBER: There Yere no promises. No commitments. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please~ The han. member for Lewisporte. MR. SIMMONS: The Premier will not let him stand up, Sir. MR. WHITE: Mr. Speaker, I have a petition here that is signed by 321 people in the area of Campbellton and Loon Bay, and I Yill read tne petition, Mr.

Speaker, just to make sure it complies with the rules: •Whereas the Integrated Elementary School of Loon Bay which accommodates students from Campbellton, Gayside, Birchy Bay, and Loon Bay will loss a well qualified physical education teacher thus depriving all students in the aforesaid school the opportunity to have a very enjoyable and much needed physical education programme. The loss of teachers and thus programmes in our school system shows the apparent regression of educational opportunities in rural Newfoundland ·of which we are a part •" AN HON. MEMBER: Shame! Shame! MR.

WHITE: ''We the undersigned concerned parents and citizens of the towns of Campbellton and Loon Bay strongly request that the Progressive Conservative Administration now in power take immediate steps to provide the Norte Dame Integrated School Board with the necessary salary allocations so that they can reinstate the now redundant physical education programme at the Loon Bay Integrated Elementary School.

And further take the necessary steps to ensure that the children of our Province do not suffer because of the government's financial restraints through cutbacks in our children's educational opportunities .'1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WHITE: Now, Mr. Speaker, that petition is signed by a lot of concerned people in an area where the cutbacks in education is probably being felt more than in any other single

section of the Province, in one small area, Mr. Speaker, in the area of Campbellton-Loon Bay, and taking Comfort Cove and Newstead into the same area, two teachers will go there this year. And it is a very serious thing. It means no physical education programme at all. It means a combination of ~indergarten and Grade I in one school, and the people there are very, very upset t.:r• ~ r I l

May 16, 1978 Tape 3189 PK ~ 2 Mr, White: It is not just a matter of teachers being upset,and, Mr. Speaker, I do not even know if a teacher's name is signed to this petition . But I do know that the people there are very upset. They had to wait years for quality education to come to that area. And now after being there for just a few years down goes the quality aga~~ MR. SIMMONS: Shame! MR. WHITE: - in the same area, Mr. Speaker, in the same area.

The fact that the government's cutback or the additional 5 per cent that boards are going to be required to pay with respect to school busing is being very seriously felt in the Lewisporte district and also in Twillingate district, Mr. Speaker. It is a board that probably buses more students than any other school board in Newfoundland, and the effects are very serious. I just want to give an example here, and I will do it time and time again, Mr. Speaker, to make the point. The per pupil increase in cost to an urban board, and using the urban board in St. John's in question, is about $7.00.

And since the cost to boards will be 10 per cent of the total cost next year based on those figures the urban board will pay about $4,50 per pupil for transportation,

whereas the Norte Dame Intergrated Board will pay $14,00 per pupil, $4.00 as compared to $14.00. What this actually means is that the urban board has,in effect 7 an extra $9.50 per pupil, an extra $9.50 per pupil to spend on school supplies and equipment and other services beyond the amount that is available to our board. Now,Mr. Speaker, I brought this up before in the . J t House. The Minister of Education has indicated to me that he will be naming a committee to study this very serious discrimination towards the rural school boards in this Province.

And I hope that that committee is formed quickly and gets on with the job of straightening out this. And to end my few remarks, Mr. Speaker, I will quote a document here presented to me by the Superintendent of Education for the Norte Dame Integrated Board a Mr. John Runt, and Mr. Hunt says, ''What I find difficult to undertand is why a government which says that it is dedicated to the development of the rural areas of the Province has

May 16 , 1978 Tape 318 9 PK - 3 Mr. White: decided to cutback on the one ite= in the education budget which it has done~ and is doing more than anYthing else tO help develop the rural area!!. 11 SOME RON; MEMB.ERS Hear, hear! MR. SIMMONS: Resign, 'Wallace', Resign, Resign. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Shame! Shame! MR. SPEAKF!R: The hon. the member for Port au Port. ;MR. J; HODDER: Mr. Speaker, what the govermnent did in this budget was to take the easy way out. It is easy to look at the figures a~d cutback ou teachers.

It is easy to say you have ten more per cent of the school busing than you had - or five more percent than you had before. That is very easy. 'the diff:l.cult thing, , I I I t I' I I j· i I I I

~fay 16. 1978 Tape ~o. 319~ Nl:I - 1 MR. J. HODDER: l1r. Speaker, is to - if the Province is in troubled ' times, is to cut back where it is really neede d. Now I believe that money can be saved where it is required. But it needs careful study and it needs to be done effectively. Now everything I have seen about the last budget, particularly as it concerns education but as it concerns the rest as well, shows me that the t~ing _w~ thrown together , quicklv.perhaps in London, perhaps in Los Angeles.

But in a society like Newfoundland there are nany areas in government where bureaucracies grow up, ~~here positions become redundant, and it takes a competent administration to find them. We on this side of the House understand that at this present time we have financial difficulties in the Province. But we also said here that we can verv well see that the government has not taken any innovative steps to look after this particular problem.

Instead of that a bureaucracy builds up both in the teaching profession and in other professions but the government takes the simple step- the $3 for hospital patients~ the easy '~ay out, not to reall y look into the source of the !!latter. Now, Mr. Speaker, I believe that even if there had been no teacher cutbacks; with the school board, no change in busing with the school boards, that this Department of Education, this minister, this government, would still be guilty because of omission, guilty by omission.

At the present time the Minister of Educ~tion and the Minister of Fisheries should be working together because I believe that education must be tied to the development of the province. I believe that the people of this Province must become more aware of the industries that we have, the fishery and the forests. And I also think, ~r. Speaker, that they should perhaps learn a little bit about their political system. And just to digress for a second, I believe if all Newfoundlanders understood how the House of Assembl y ~mrke d, then I l I I !I !­ ~ !. I ~' '

'fay 16, 1978 Tape No. 3190 NH - 2 MR. J. HODDER: the Premier and members on t~e other side would not be able to make the stupid statements that they have been making about the House of Assembly not worr-..ing "hen indeed it is workin~~: very, verv well. But anyhow, 1!r. Speaker, I feel that this whole education thing is one of the biggest blunders that this government has ever made and I feel that by this time they musr be getting the message. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. :m .. ~v. ROWE: :·Ir.

Speaker, I rise as well to support this petition so well presented by my friend, the member for Lewisporte district (Mr. F. White), signed by 321 peoole, mostly 1as I understand it, parents, if not exclusively at least mostly, merely concerned parents of students and pupils in the area of Campbellton and Loon B~y, that area coming under the Notre Dame Integrated School Board.

As my hon. friend said, Sir, it is not teachers merely trying to further their own cause, it is parents who recognize the vital necessity for a decent education as part of the overall development, economically and socially of this Province of ours. And they see now something which can no longer be considered a luxury but a vital necessity being taken away from them because of the shortsighted policy of the }finister of Education and his colleagues. We are now seeing, Sir, something which did not look too bad on paper perhaps.

The minister could stand up and say, "Oh this is not goin~~: to affect anything or anyone. This is not going to make the quality of education in our Province decline." Maybe it will not in St. John's or Corner Brook or Grand Falls, I do not know. Maybe it will not.

But I can assure Your Honour that in the rural parts of this Province it is certainly going to affect the quality of education in a very adverse fashion and we see now the tip of this iceburg where a physical education teacher, so vitally needed in this area for the development of body as well as minds,_the minds of our students, a physical education teacher • .. ,.

}lay 16, 1978 N:i - 3 from the school in that particular area. And, Sir, it is a ducrlm:ination against rural !le~foundland . My hon. friend from Lewisporte (Mr. F. White) cited figures to substantiate that . !tis a discrimination . !t is the kind of cutback that in the more sparcely populated areas the schools and the boards are lease able to absorb as they might be able to do by doubling up and so on in more densely populated areas like St. John ' s,

~1ay 16, 1978 Tape 3191 EC - 1 MR. W. N. ROWE: Corner Brook, Grand Falls and so on. Education, Sir, is the single, most important aspect of government policy, more important than anything else, because no matter what you do, Mr. Speaker, no matter what kind of a health service you will provice, no matter what kind of employment opportunities are developed, no matter what kind of transportation system I you may have, if our young people are not educated and trained to take advantage of all these other opportunities, then, Sir, the Province will certainly wither economically.

It is the single, most important element. It is the sine qua non of development, economic and social, in this Province. And, Sir, it is disastrous, as has been pointed out and as will be pointed out at every possible opportunity on this side of the House - it is disastrous at this time in the history of our Province for any cutbacks or any downgrading in the quality of education to be permitted to take place let alone forced upon the people by an unconcerned government. Now, I do hope the Minister of Education will get up and have a word to say about this.

The Minister of Transportation could not seem to drag himself out of his seat, Sir, to talk about a very important petition which was presented before this one, concerning Fogo Island. Perhaps the Minister of Education will have a word to say. Perhaps he can give us an indication here that he is relenting in his Draconian policy of cutbacks - in education, of all places, Hr. Speaker. MR. SIMMONS: What sort of construction is that - 'not to'? HR. W. N. ROWE: The Premier told him not to get up. Well, that would be par for the course. Mr. Speaker, I do hope he gets up and indicates to us that

May 16, 1978 Tape 3191 EC - 2 MR. W. N. ROWE: he is relenting in his Draconian measures that have been taken to cut back, of all things, Sir, education, the education and training of our young men and women, the youth of this Province, Sir - of all other government programmes, Sir, the thing that can best give our young people a life of quality in this Province and outside of this Province wherever they may want to go to further their careers.

I support the petition, Sir, so ably presented by my friend from Lewisporte and I do hope that other members of the House - on this side I know they will, Sir, but I hope on the other side as well - will get up and show that they are concerned, show that they are not cowed and puppet-like on these matters, show that they are concerned about the adverse effect on education in rural Newfoundland as a result of the short-sighted, not to say idiotic policies by this present administration regarding the education of our young people. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I want to voice my support of the petition from the 321 petitioners in the Campbellton - Loon Bay area. Mr. Speaker, just an observation on petitions - it might be an interesting exercise to check back and see how many petitions have been presented this session and the total number of signatures. I would guess without doing the checking that we have never had as many petitions in any session of the House since Confederation as we have had in this particular session about roads, about education, about the cost of living, ~ r t !- ' '

Hay 16, 1978 Tape 3191 EC - 3 MR. SIMMONS: about a number of issues . That alone, Mr. Speaker, is indicative of the dissatisfaction of the people of the Province with this administration. And what, Mr. Speaker, symbolizes that dissatisfaction more than the issue we are on right now, the issue of the cutbacks in education~ Now, Mr. Speaker, I sincerely hope that the llinister of Education will not be intimidated by the instructions he just got up the line and that he will stand up, nonetheless, as a member of the Rouse - it is his individual right, he does not have to take orders from anybody else over there.

As a member of the House he is allowed to get up and say a few words on the subject. The Minister of Municipal Affairs is grinning. I know he will not get up, Mr. Speaker. He got up at Holy Heart and after his weak and cheap and stunned attempt to use that meetin~ for political purposes he will not get up for a long time to come. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I must point out to the hon. gentleman that remarks should be confined to the allegation of the petition - I i SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! ~fR. SPEAKER: - Order, please! - as it relates to education and the possible effect of cutbacks.

The hon. member. HR. SIMMONS: ~r. Speaker, I was being harassed by the Minister of Municipal Affair~ and I apologize, Sir. Mr. Speaker, I was hoping that the Hinister of Education would get up and I hoped he would not tell us that there is no loss of quality - I hoped he would not tell us that; he came close at Holy Heart Auditorium that night to admitting there was some loss in quality. ·!

~!ay 16, 1978 Tape 3191 :EC - 4 ~R. S l}C10NS: I hoped he ~ould not tell us there was no loss Ln quality, because the documentation here today from my friend from Lewisporte a nd the documentation all over is to the contrary. And for the min ister to assert that there is oo lo ss in quality, it is a case of House misleading the House. Worse stil~, Mr. Speaker, -and this I think is of far more concern - not only would he be i I ,. i 1 I I: I• I

May 16, 1978 Tape 3192 PK - 1 Mr. Simmons: misleading the House, Mr. Speaker, but he would be misleading himself- a case of House misleading House- because he knows the difference, he knew the difference as a Superintendent of Education. And I submit he still knows the difference. I submit that he did not mean this when he said it. We do not need remedial reading specialists, the minister said that, we do not need remedial reading specialists he told the audience at HDly Heart. He told the audience at Holy Heart forty-two students is not too large if they are bright. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh, oh! MR. F.

ROWE: What an insult. MR. SIMMONS: Mr, Speaker, the minister may well ,.Mr. Speaker ,on this issue. f i' SOME RON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SIMMONS: - he may well have lost his perspective on it. He may well have lost his perspective to the point that he is now misleading himself. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I must point oun that the precedents of the House with respect to petitions are, obviously, no debate and one supports the material allegations thereon, and also,in my understanding, precludes sort of a confrontation of views.

I do not say a comparsion of views, or a reference to another person's view, but the type of confrontation of views which, as I understand it, is !l probably part of the essence of debate. I draw this to the attention of the bon. member. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you. Mr. Speaker, what is this I hear about another committee, another committee did the member say? Another committee. Does it not illustrate, Mr. Speaker, that the government bungled on this one about a task force?

Instead of getting a couple of fellows with a fairly narrow viewpoint on education, the minister ought to have enlarged it to include some of the parents. I say to the minister, Mr. Speaker, that he is going to have to pull up his socks, Mr. Speaker, he is becoming a painful embarrassment even to his friends in Education as we heard today. They gave him time first when he became minister to establish himself, they stuck

May 16, 1978 Tape 3192 PK ~ 2 Mt. Simmons: up for him, and now they realize just how badly they were taken in. And now on top of everything else we hear once again today he is giving the complete shaft to rural Newfoundland. I do not know how he can do it. I do not know how he can live with himself. And I appeal to him as a friend to get off this kick he has been on recently and to begin taking up his first love the protection of the youngster in rural Newfoundland to see that that youngster gets a quality education. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SIMMONS: If he were more busy mouthing the concern of that youngster than mouthing the concern of that youngster over there who sits to the left of the Minister of Justice we would be a lot better off. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Heal:', hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Trinity-Bay de Verde. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, having spent twelve years of my life in school and five years at university and back aggin to the schools teaching school for four years, and seven years teaching at the University one thing that we used to always talk about with respect to the quality of education was a sound mind and a sound body.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. F. ROWE: As a matter of fact,! think it is written into some manuscript in the Department of Education. Sir, physical education is not a frill, it is not a bit of fun like it used to be ten or fifteen or twenty years ago, It is a very important aspect of the whole educational system. Sir, when you come to the spirit within a school I would submit, Sir, that the physical education teacher is probably the backbone of any spirit that exists in school.

Because as we all know, Sir, most of the activities in school are related to sort of bookwork and academic brainwork and this kind of thing, and one of the few releases that you get is become involved in physical educational activities whether it be in the school .or outside of the school. And, Sir, I have seen physcial education teachers work all after school hours,during the school day, and in the evenings

May 16, 1978 Tape 3192 PK - 3 Mr , F. Rowe: coaching various teams, and I have seen them work many a weekend assisted by other teachers working with hockey teams, soccer teams, basketball teams, softball teams, and what have you.

l1ay 16,1978 Tape No. 3193 AH-1 and, Sir, it is a very important aspect of education in our Province, both from the physical release from the mental activity that goes on in the school and the very important aspect of keeping the body in shape and not even thinking of the competitive aspect of sports that I think is too often overemphasized in some schools and some school systems, the competitiveness between the various schools. It is healthy, there is nothing wrong with it but, Sir, it is very important from the point of view of keeping the body in shape.

And, Sir, I would like to see the member for Kilbride (Hr.Wells)- Sm!E HON. MEHBERS: Hear, hear! HR.F.P.OWE: Sir, I would like to see the member for Kilbride (Hr. Wells) who took

part in the Boston Marathon get up and speak in support of this particular petition because he knows 'full well the importance of keeping in shape. And, Sir, also I understand the }tinister of Loggers and Energy- Mines and Energy, Sir, I am sorry, the rlinister of Loggers, Sir, the Minister of Mines and Energy, I u~erstand that that minister, Sir, does get up and go trotting aroULd the gymnasiwa at the Rec Center to keep in physical shape.

And, Sir, I would submit that these two hon. gentlemen should stand in their places and give their wholehearted support to this petition . because physical education I submit, Sir, is no frill, it is not just fun , it is a very important necessary and integral par~ of the whole educational system in our schools. And, Sir, having been a student and a teacher in university and in the school systems I know the importance of physical education to the students - this is outright discrimination against rural Newfoundland. I understand, I stand to be corrected, there is a gumnasium out there in that school. MR.

LUSH: It is going to go to waste. MR. F.ROWE; What is going to happen to the gymnasium out in that scnool, Mr. Speaker? Is that just a complete waste now or what? I just raise that question, Sir, and I wholeheartedly support the petition in the hope as well that the two hon. gentlemen that I just mentioned - I have given up on the Minister of Education- will get up and support this j 1 ·' I

l·lay 16,1978 Tape No. 3193 AH-2 MR.F.ROWE: particular petition. MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for laPoile. HR. NEARY: l1r. Speaker, I do not want to delay the proceedings of the House, Sir, I just want to merely support the petition so ably presented by my hon. colleague the member for Lewisporte (Mr.White). In supporting the petition, Sir, I want to say how disappointed I am that the Minister of Education is not allowed to get up and have a few words on this petition. His colleagues have all been silenced appa~ently in order to try and get the House closed up as fast as they can. This probably, Mr.

Speaker, would be a classic example of wh~ the House is failing when the word would go out and the whip would be cracked that the members are not allowed to speak on petitions. But this is again, Sir, the kind of petition that we have seen so often in this session of the House. ApparentlY) the government in its policy, the minister especially, has completely demoralized 1 the teachers in this Province - AN HON • ~ID.'iBER: Hear, hear! MR.

NEARY: - demoralized the parents, demoralized the students, demoralized the taxpayers and they just sit back, Sir, again and try to ride it out and just laugh and scoff at this wb.ich is a very serious situation, And then the minister has the gall to say'~Jhat does the hon. gentleman know about it7" Well the hon. gentleman happens to have four children in school and I am a t~payer and I believe I should have some knowledge of the situation and I am very concerned as I am sure all other hon. gentlemen are. Hr. Speaker, I am surprised that the han. member for Kilbride (Hr.

Wells) should allow the Premier to crack the whip and the hen. gentleman would not get up and have a few words. HR. WELLS: As soon as y'u are finished. MR. NEARY: Well I will yield, Sir, to the hon. gentleman if the hen. gentleman wishes to have a few words. I will just merely say that I am going to support the petition and I yi~ln tn t~~ ~~~. gentleman. SOHE HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Hon. member for Terra Nova. I i r· ! ' ·i j

:·1ay 16,1978 Tape No. 3193 Ah-3 HR. SPEAKER: I am sorry the han. gentleman - ~: He did not rise. MR. WELLS: It really does not matter to me, Mr. Speaker, whether it be now or after the han. gentleman over there, so as you wish. }1R. NEARY: Go ahead! · . . , ' ' j r

:-fay -i6, 1978 Tape No. 3194 NM- 1 11R. NEARY: You are the only one ''ho is allowed to speak. ~.WELLS: First I must lay to rest one myth, there is nobody over here to my knowledge who has told me or anybody else not to speak on petitions. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I must ask hen. gentlemen not to interrupt ''hen another hen. member is speaking. :1R.. WELLS: An~'ay, Mr. Speaker, yes I do have something to say on this and something which I think is important.

I went to school as a lot of members did in this House, in outports and grew up and 'vent right up through, in my own case finished grade ten in outport schools. And I remember ~1hen we tried to play a game of hockey it was on harbour ice or on a pond and when the puck got away it was likely to go a mile. And I remember coming in here to St. John's to take grade eleven and,obviously, in that day, in 1948, had absolutely no training in sports whatsoever. It was whatever we picked up or could pick up and that was next to nothing because there was nobody in a one or two room school to teach us anything.

And as much as anybody in this Province I am pleased to see the strides that have ~een made in outport Newfoundand in physical education. I will tell you one small anecdote which happened very recently to me, A son of mine in grade ten went out with a volleyball team which was the champion in the school system here in St. John's and played in Conception Bay and I was interested to see what happened, and to tell you the truth, as an outport man and a bayman myself, I was delighted when the team from Conception Bay won. I asked my son about it afterwards and I said, "How did this - you know what happened?

Were they better yolley- ball players t!1a.'1 you?" and he said, "I do not k ... ;.ow if they were better players or not, " but he said, "I will tell you this, they had more I ~ i I I 1 I l r

:1ay 16, 1978 Tape No. 3194 Nlf - 2 MR. 1mLLs: desire to win." And I was delighted, as a bayman myself, and a man who gre1v up in the out;JOrts, I lvas delighted to see that and delie:hted that that has come to pass in Newfoundland. Now,on this question of the cutbacks in education.

I had the advantage there only a week ago to have a t.•o hour conversation with one of the most prominent educators and knowledgeable men in the school systems in Newfoundland and he explained to me much of what goes on in these areas and in the question of specialty teachers and I li'Ould say this, as I understood it from him, it is not that the cutbacks in education are necessarily going to result in the short-term, in a year or two, in serious damage to education in Newfoundland, lvhat he said, and I think this makes some sense to me, is that the fact that specialty teachers have to be cut back, if it goes on in t~e long-term, will destroy our at least hurt the morale in the school system and that I think would be an awful shame.

And my feeling, and what I express. here and what I have expressed to the Minister of Education, what I have expressed in letters to constituents of mine and to the NTA here in St. John's is this, that I kno1v and we all know that the government has got to curb wherever it can, expenditures. But the one area which the government must be most careful in and I think everybody recognizes that, is in anything to do with education and in particular anything lvhich would tend to hurt the morale of the school system. Now, the point I wish to make is this.

If it had to be done, and I accept from the minister that it had to be done this year, I would hope that in the coming years and in future, steps can be taken to rectify that so that we are not looking at a long-term thing. I would hope that we are only looking cutbacks in this case ''hich would be for a matter of a year or two at most. And that it can be brought back because I think it would be a shame

~!ay 16, 19 78 Tape No. 3194 ~P.-1 - 3 l!R. WELLS: and I think ~•e' all agree on that, anything which would demoralize the school system or anything that would harm it in any way. Now I do not say this ~rlll hurt in the .short run, I hope it will not, But I sincerely hope and ask and request of the government that it be put back in the future so that no harm can result from the system, as I am assured that in a matter of a year or so no great harm will be done.

But more than anybody else, and as much as anybody else I should say, I ~•ant to see the school system in Newfoundland prosper, prosper in the sense that our children, whatever fate befalls them in life, whether they have to stay here or wherever they might choose to go, that they are as well prepared mentally and physically as anybody can be to compete in the tlY'entieth century. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Terra Nova. ~. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, when the first petition was presented in this House of Assembly this year related to teacher cutbacks I wrote down a few notes on a piece of paper here.

Little did I know at the time how accurate these notes ~•ere. Little did I !mow how much on target they were. Little did I know how keen my observations ~•auld be. Because day after day

Hay 16, 1978 Tape 3195 EC - 1 HR. LUSH: the petitions that come in have- proven this. And any man who is aspiring to beco~e Minister of Education, any person, could take this and become the most aggressive, the most dynamic, the most progressive and the most innovative Minister of Education this Province ever had. I am going to hold on to it, Mr. Speaker. At that time, Mr. Speaker, I talked about three effects.

Today I am only going to talk about two, because this is what the petition speaks about, two effects of teacher cutbacks, reduction in programmes which is illustrated in this petition, losing a physical education programme, a most important programme, and the multiclass situation, one teacher teaching two and more classes, I think, in this one here. It said they were going to have to put together kindergarten and Grade I- a most undesirable situation, Mr. Speaker. These teacher cutbacks, Sir, are arrived at through a student-teacher ratio. I think they were arrived at this year by applying the twenty-six to one.

For a long time we have been trying to reduce the student-teacher ratio in this Province to give us more teachers so that we can provide more specialty services to students, more special services to insure quality of education and equal educational opportunity, but this year the government applied the twenty-six to one student-teacher ratio very stringently - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! HR. LUSH: -and the result was 120 teachers laid off. Now, Mr. S~eaker, just about in every area we try to aspire to parity with the rest of Canada, and I have referred previously to the teacher ratios

o!ay 16, 1978 Tape 3195 EC - 2 MR. LUSH: across Canada and what it means to this Province. And let me do it once more. In British Columbia, for example, the student-teacher ratio there is 18.61 students per teacher; in Alberta it is 18.65 students per teacher; in Saskatchewan 18.75 per teacher: Quebec - amazing, in Quebec 15.91 students per teacher; Canada the avPrage is 18.67; in Newfoundland last year, 1976-1977 our average is 19.72 students per teacher - that is dividing all of the educators into the total students.

If tomorrow the government were to say, We are going to reach the Canadian ave~age, that would mean hiring 475 teachers, Mr. Speaker. Instead, ,.,e have laid off 120, which means we are just about 600 teachers behind getting to the Canadian average, because the average is not going to change since it was done en the twenty-six to one, so the average will basically remain the same. So this means that in order to gain parity, equal opportunity with the rest of Canada means hiring 600 teachers instead of laying off 120.

Right now it would be 475, but counting next year the 120 that we are going to lose we would have to hire 600 additional teachers. Mr. Speaker, the implications of that are incredible. Imagine if we were to apply that same ratio to any other field - to medicine, to the police force - there would be an uprising in the Province to know that we were going to lose so many doctors, so many policemen. In education, just imagine the impact• NR. SIMHONS: That is why they picked education - MR. LUSH: Just imagine what that is going to do to the future of education in this Province.

How long '"' is it going to take us to get up to that parity? Next year

!lay 16, 1978 Tape 3195 EC - 3 HR. LUSH: we are going to need to hire 600 teachers to reach it. :· l

May 16, 1978 Tape 3196 PK - 1 Mr. Lush: Where does this place us? Where does this place us in relationship to equality of educational opportunity in this country? Where does this place us? Mr. Speaker, this was a drastic move by the government, a drastic move by the Minister of Education. And I would hope that he is soon going to reverse, is going to see the light, and is going to see what drastic effect this is having on education as it is illustrated in this petition presented by my hon. colleague, cutbacks in physical education. putting two and three claases in with the one teacher.

It cannot be done effectively, Mr. Speaker, there is no way that this can be done. And I would hope that the minister will shortly see the lightof day and reverse the decision that his government has made. Mr. Speaker, I support the petition and I hope that the minister will get up and speak frankly and tell us what he intends to do. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear • hear! MR.

SPEAKER: Before recognizing the hon. gentleman for Carbonear followed by the hon. gentleman for Conception Bay South, I would like to welcome to the Speaker's gallery a former member of the House of Assembly and a member of the Executive Council in the person of Mr. Charles Ballam. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I would also like to welcome on behalf of hon. members twenty Grade 10 students from Stella Maris High School in Trepassey accompanied by their teacher Mr. Ted Winter. I know hon . members join me in welcoming these students and expressing the hope that their visit will be an interesting one.

SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Carbonear. MR. R. MOORES: Mr. Speaker, since the inception of Confederation in this little Province in 1949 no greater social tragedy has occurred than the present government policy of teacher cutbacks in this Province. And that, Mr, Speaker, can be no better exemplified than the material content of the petition so ably presented by my colleague for Lewisporte, (Mr. F. Whitel~ wherein it states, de facto 1 that the teacher cutbacks l l I

May 16, 1978 Tape 3196 PK - 2 Mt. R. Moores: in this Province promoted and encouraged and forced upon the people of this Province by the Minister of Education and the government he represents will deny the students of this little school a physical education teacher which is absolutely essential to proper educational development. We have been told, Mr. Speaker, from the day that we entered Kindergarten to the day that we die, in fact, that in order to have a properly developed child that child must be subjected to proper physical development as well as proper mental academic development. SOME RON.

MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. R. MOORES: Now, this minister, the Minister of Education repeatedly and continually rises in this House, I doubt if he will do it today, although you will never know if he got permission from the Premier he probably will rise, if he did not get permission from the Premier as I saw a couple of weeks ago, "Sit down, Mr. House", he probably will not speak. But he has in the past repeatedly spoken and defended a policy by this government - DR. KITCHEN: He is probably reading the Want Ads. MR. R.

MOORES: - that is definitely going to harm the children of this Province, and harm the teaching profession as a whole. DR. KITCHEN: •••• the Premier. MR. R. MOORES: The quality of education, Mr. Speaker, as expressed in this petition has to be affected. If there is no physical education teacher, and a child must be develo~ed physically as well as mentally, then does that not legistically affect the quality of education? AN RON. MEMBER: Of course it does. MR. R. MOORES: In this school system or in this particular school is the quality of education not affected? I challenge, Mr.

Speaker, the Minister of Education who has backed down on almost every public meeting in this Province that he has been invited to, including one in Carbonear where there were 600 parents and teachers, backed down, ran away, and will probably do the same in the House today, he probably will not speak, will probably run away again from his responsibilities,

:·fay 16, 19 73 Tape No. 3197 lt!- 1 MR. R. !100RES: and he will not take the step that he should take, that his credentials as }linister of Education say that he should take and get up in this han. House and say, "Look, we have made a mistake. We have wronged the teachers in this Province. We have adversely affected the quality of education and the development of children in this Province and we are goin~ to withdraw the policy. We are going to reverse it. We realize our mistake and we realize that we must now amend the wrong that we have done." Hr.

Speaker, I whole-heartedly support this petition and I trust that the ~~nister of Education will have the responsibility, the courage, to get up and shrug off the hon. Premier's dictatorial policy of disallowing him to speak, get up and defend what he believes in his mrn mind to be right. Thank vou, Mr. Speaker. ~m.. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Conception Bay South. MR. NOLAN: Mr. Speaker, if I can interfer with the - if the han. minister has the green light I would like to address myself to this but just briefly, Mr. Speaker.

We find amongst those who are involved in education sometimes a lot of figures bandied about, but the fact is that with many of the parents in this Province they have for some time come to the conclusion, no matter what the minister says, no matter what any member of the Cabinet says, or no matter what any member of the Opposition says, that their children are being short changed as a result of this latest educational cutback.

And you can be as mealey-mouthed about it as you like, but you are not going to sell the parents on this and perhaps this may be an indication of why we do not have parents representing a part of the committee that the minister has set up. I find it aggravating in more ways than one when we talk about a sound mind in a sound body and so

~y 16, 1978 Tape ~o. 3197 ~m- 2 ~1R. NOLAN: on, if we really believe what we are saying. ~ot too long ago, a phys~cal fitness superintendent or director of one of the largest school boards in Newfoundland told me that in spite of facilities and so on, because of our modern way of life, that young people today are in worse shape than ever before. The member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells) referred to the fact that they had to go sRating on a pond, I suggest he also had to walk to school, however far that was, and that was true of most of us in this House.

MR. !·tCNEIL : What kind of shape are the fellows in in the Uouse? !1R. }IOLAN: Right. And this is why, not that we were any better than the kids _of today, far from it, but all I am saying is that because we did not have school buses, because we ~•ere not driven to hockey, we were not driven to dancing classes, we were not driven here, there and ever~•here, the fact is we were in fairly good shape for our age in spite of ourselves if you like, because of the way in which we lived. DR. KITCHEN: Cut out the buses. MR. NOLAN: No, I ~ not saying as my friend, the hon. member for St. John's West (Dr.

Kitchen) sugge~ts, in jest I am sure, to cut out the buses. But it is difficult for ~e to believe ~•hen I look across the House at the hon. ~inister of Education, a man for ~•hom I have always had a great deal of respect, and I ~elieve he hel~ a great deal of respect within the educational fraternity, if you like, ~ man ~~ho 'vent to school for some time, high school and so on, I believe uorked in the lumber woods for some time and then decided to go back at it again,and I cannot help feeling now as those whom I have talked to in the educational business, they cannot understand what has happened to him.

I mean7 is he really taking these press releases seriously? I mean here you have a self-made man obviously, but the trouble with the self-made man is when he starts adoring his creator, ~r. Speaker. And here we have a situation t. j ~

:~y 16 , 1973 ~ •. NOLAN : that is a very , very challen ging one for th:1t minister today. lle cannot be governed merel y by the ·dictates of those ,.:rho look at the balance sheets in t he Treasury Board. They are not the conscience of education in t his Province, no matter ~mat anyone tells the minister. I mean,what happens co a man who becomes a superintendent of Education, a very fine educator apparently, he becomes the Minister of EC.ucation and all of a sudde.'l we in the public llfe and i n education and pare.'lts and so on, happen co look upon him no~J as thoug h he is behaving like an education;U kamikaze pilot. I s he trying to des troy himself and his own credibility? (

Ha y 16 , 197 8 Tape 3198 EC - 1 }fR. NOLAN: One day, I suppose, he is going to go back teaching in education and so on again. DR. KITCHEN: (Inaudible) MR. nOLAN: Next year? DR. KITCHEN: Next year. MR. NOLAN: Has he applied? DR. KITCHEN: I cannot say. HR. NOLAN: You are not prepared to say. If, as the hon. the member for Terra Nova (Mr. Lush) suggests, we are 600 teachers less than the Canadian average, how can we sit around being mealy-mouthed about a few figures here, there and everywhere to try to justify a position that is short- changing the kids of this Province? The parents know it.

Now, the Minister of Education cannot, I suggest, stand still on this matter. He must rise, in my opinion, no matter what anyone tells him, and acknowledge what has been said here today and reply to this petition from the integrated elementary school of Loon Bay, and also, of course, representing the students from Campbellton, Gay Side, Birchy Bay and Loon Bay. It is a very, very serious matter we have here. It is not merel y a partisan one. We are not talking about P.C. kids or Liberal kids, we are talking about Newfoundland students - that is what we are talking about. And this is what we have to face up to.

I suggest now, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister of Education has no choice on two things, one, to rise immediately in this House and address himself to this proposition and this petition here and now, permission or no permission ; secondly, he must also boldly strike out and indicate quite clearly for the benefit of his fello ws ' 1: fl fl :i li I' I' II I'

~ray 16 , 1 9 7 8 Tape 3198 EC - 2 l~R. NOLAN: in the educational fraternity and also to the parents and the students, exactly what his position is. And if he is being muscled by the Treasury Board and some of the other fiscal giants let him say so and we will be amongst the first to sympathize with him and to express our feelings, even perhaps, support him in certain instances, I do not know, but he must come out and tell us, Mr. Speaker. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. gentleman's time has expired. The hon. the member for St. George's. MRS. ~{c ISAAC: Mr.

Speaker, I just want to say a few words in support of this petition because I think that it applies to the rural areas in general, and while we may have teacher cutbacks, and it may very well be justified in some areas of the Province, in the rural areas teacher cutbacks is definitely not justified. And I am not telling the ~!inister of Education anything when I say that it is just not justified and there is no way it can be.. For instance, the district of St.

George's to compare it with the district that my hon. friend is speaking of) the minister was superintendent in that area for a number of years and he is quite familiar with the physical fitness programmes that are not available in that district. We have about three areas, Stephenville Crossing, St.George's and Codroy Valley that have gymnasiums and are able to avail of the physical fitness programmes. Other than that, we have no physical fitness in any of the schools, and that takes in the area from Gallants right out to the Codroy Valley.

And I am maybe getting away from the petition, but I am certainly not getting away from the spirit or the prayer I I• f I

~lay 16, 1978 Tape 3198 EC - 3 HRS. }!ciSAAC: of it. MR. HODDER: Material allegation. !-IRS. HciSAAC: And I think that you just cannot take this thing and cut it back or across the board. You may be able to cut back on it in St. John's, Corner Brook or the bigger areas where they have too many physical fitness teachers, but if you have too many here, we do not have too many in the rural areas. We have none in a lot of areas.

So I think that this thing has to be taken out and looked at. it has to be seriously considered, and where you have areas and districts where you have no physical fitness programmes whatever, then some effort should be made to make this programme available to those students to give them the same opportunities that we have in the larger sections. And I keep harping on this, because it seems as though every time I get up I speak about the rural areas in comparison with the bigger cities, and this is the only way that I can compare it, because this is what is happening.

In the rural areas our children are being neglected. There is no way in the world that they can come in here to college or go anywhere else and compare with or compete with the children who have those programmes available. Now if there are too many in the larger centres then send them out to the rural areas. We will take all you have. And I support the petition. Thank you. UR. SPEAKER: The han. the member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr.

Speaker, once again, as a former schoolteacher, I rise in support of a pe~ition~ that has to do with educational cutbacks in this Province~ as presented by the hon. the member for Lewisporte (Mr.White) . J · ~ !- 1 i

Hay 16,1978 Tape No. 3199 AH-1 Hr. Speaker, in supporting this petition I have to admit first of all that I lied to the House, not deliberately.

Earlier ia rising to support another petition I said it was twenty years ago that I taught in a school on Fogo Island, I have since ascertained that it was eighteen years ago actually, because I know that it was the following year, seventeen years ago that I had the privilege again of being principal of a three room school in none other community than Gay side, a coiDiilunity which is apparently affected by the cutback of a . physical education instructor in the school that serves the communities of Caiilpbellton which I know quite well.

Comfort Cove is in there;I do not know if students come from there or not but Campbellton, Loon Bay, Birchy Bay and Gayside which was formerly known as Birchy Bay as well. f Since there were two Birchy Bays they called one Gayside, I am familiar I with all of them. I have travelled over that road many times and know something about the educational facilities which existed in these communities some seventeen years ago.

And now, •Mr. ·Speaker, over the seventeen year period since I taught school there we moved from three room schools to two room schools and four room schools in these small communities, we moved from that over seventeen years to a position where we had a regional or a central school, a high school or elementary school or what have you. And now, Mr. Speaker, after the growth of that seventeen year period,now we see a retrogressive step, Mr.

Speaker, taking away from them facilities that are so badly needed bv the students who attended this particular school, here we see them losing the services of their physical education instructor. Mr. Speaker, as I said I taught school, I was principal of a three school in Stagg Harbour on Fogo Island with no facilities at all for physical education. I taught school at Gayside, a three room school again with no facilities for physical education. It is interesting to note, Mr.

Speaker, that the following year, the very next year, sixteen years ago I taught school for the first time in a central high school - it was the first year that the high school was open as a matter of fact, the only high school :hat ex isted at that time l!,-

Hay 16,1978 Tape No. 3199 AH-2 MR. CALLAN: on New World Island. I was on an island, came back to the mainland and then went back to the island again. Mr. Speaker, after spending one year in a central high school I never went back again to that position where you had three and four classes in the same classroom, where I formerly spent my time teaching all subjects in grades Vlll, IX, !_ and X,J... Then when I went into a subject teaching position I never wanteu to go back, Hr. Speaker, we have here today a physical education instructor being lost to tais school.

As I said on earlier occasions in supporting petitions of this kind, :lr. Speaker, the physical education teacl~r or the physical education instructor, rrr. Speaker, is an integral part of our school system today,an integral part of our school system. He provides the recreation in many schools, Mr.

Speaker, and I daresay this school is no uifferent, In many schools not only does that physical education instructor teaci1 physical education and therefore break up the school day as far as subject teaching and subject learning is concerned for the student~but I daresay that this instructor probably does some classroom teaching himself.

I know in the schools that I am familiar with the physical education instructor spent at least five or six or seven or eight periods a week out of the thirty odd periods that we have in the school day az,(l the school week, he probably spent about one fifth or one sixth of his time in the classroom because the schools are so overpopulated as per pupil and per teacher. Mr. Speaker, as I said just then, here we have a retrogressive step, Hr. Speaker, I cannot help but think back a year or so ago wnen I talked about some of the things that this administration did, t ~ I' I I

May 16, 1978 Tape 3200 PK - 1 Mr. Callan: procrastinating not doing the things that they should have been doing waiting for a year or two to do them, and I remember at that time asking whether the 'P' in P.C. stood for procrastinating rather than progressive. And, Mr. Speaker, I go a step further now and I wonder whether it should not be changed completely there is nothing progressive about what is happening in education in this Province today. There may be something conservative. They are conserving and hanging on to some of the tax dollars, but where is it going? Wasted.

Wasted on other things, like the useless spray programme. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CALLAN: I am wondering, Mr. Speaker - MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. gentleman no doubt will have an opportunity in the Budget debate as will all han. members with bread ranging comments, but here it should be related to the allegation of the petition which refers to teacher allocation' and any cutback there. > The hon. the member for Bellevue. MR. .CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, in the last forty seconds that I have I want to say this, Mr. Speaker, that it is a retrogressive step, very, very backward step - SOME HON.

MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. CALLAN: - and I call on the administration. And, Mr. Speaker, I am wondering why the minister a couple of weeks ago when these petitions were first presented or similar petitions were presented, the minister would get up and have a few words to say in defense. HR. NEARY: He got the green light ~ ow he is going to get up , MR. CALLAN: But the minister has not gotten up, Mr, Speaker, I would say on the last four or five petitions that have been presented on this topic, He has not gotten up why? MR. NEAR'....,"'Y_.,: __ _ He only got the green light a few minutes ago, MR., CALLAN: Why?

I would say, Mr. Speaker, besides getting the green light from the Premier not to get up , I would say another reason i s this that the minister knows that his arguments have been shot. They have heen shot full of holes. The argument that he has been using

May 16, 1978 Tape 3200 PK - 2 M:t. Callan: saying it will not mean a reduction in the quality of education. We had petition after petition exemplifying the fact that it will, and it does, and we see a specific example here today where a teacher will be lost from a school, physical education a very integral part of any educational setup in this Province in any school. Mr. Speaker, I call on the minister, I call on the administration to change this decision that they have made MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. CALLAN: - and to reverse their decision. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hon. the Minister of Education.

SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, just to clarify something at the beginning. I want to say a few words on - I have spoken to petitions of this sort in the past, and, of course, I do not see any need of repeating continuously day after day, and that was one of the reasons why. And nobody tells me whether I can speak or not, I will get up if I want to. MR. NEARY: You had to look at the Premier beiore you got up. MR. HOUSE: I may have looked over there. I suppose I can look just as well- I may get tired of looking over there, perhaps that is one of the reasons I looked this way. SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, first I want to say that I do not want to see any positions in physical education being stopped in any district. And as a matter of fact,there has been no cutback on specialists teachers, It happens I suppose that this board had extra teachers that they put in a position a year or two ago when there population declined, I want to respond to a few of the things that were said in speaking to the petition because it seems to me that this board, · ~ 1 that this particular board is losing only two teachers this year, and

May 16, 1978 Tape 3200 PK - 3 Mr. House: they are all being lost from that one area. And, you know,• it seems to me that there is something difficult to understand there. And possibly that particular board had allocated teachers there even without their true allocation a few years before because a board may allocate teachers where they want. We give them on the basis of schools, but they never allocate them on that basis, the boards themselves. We are not cutting back on any specialists teachers. We are not cutting back on any special education teachers. The other thing that people talk about, Mr.

Speaker, in talking to these petitions is the fact that the rural boards are the ones that are hurt. Of the twelve boards that are not affected this year this year - the twelve rural boards are not affected at all by the so-called cutback. MR. SIMMONS: Are they not affected by the school bus transportation? MR. HOUSE: I am not talking about bus transportation I am talking about cutbacks in this one as it refers to the lay ~ng off of two teachers. I thought that was what the true allegation was, that they were losing a physical education teacher and it had nothing to do with anything else.

Now whether quality suffers by virtue of this I am not prepared to say. Presumably,they are going to lose a programme. I am not so sure that that is going to have anything to do with quality in my terms, in the terms of how we talk about quality. f! !l 1\ '

lf a y 16, 197 8 Tape 3201 IB-1 :m. HOU SE: They may be replacing the programme of physical education with something else. I do not kno~v. That is the board's responsibility and I am sure it is up to the board now whether they want to use physical education instead of some other kind of subjects. And you can go to districts where there is a one to twenty-si~ ratio and they are having physical education for some peculiar reason. The other thing I want to mention is the fact that the han. member for Terra Nova (Mr.

Lush) mentioned about the pupil-teacher ratio across Canada being an 18.5 average and he brought out the 15.9 in Quebec and this is what brings the Canadian average down the 15.9 in Quebec as a result of $100 million or so of federal funding going in for minority language. And that is why they get their extra teachers. And I think if you took the true average it would be something like Ontario has, 19.04 and ours is 19.7 which is not too bad. The last thing I want to say, Mr. Speaker, is the fact that we have a one to 19.7 now.

Three of the members over there have spoken up and vociferously castigated this government for the ratio were part of a government whichlwhen they left it 1 had a ratio of one to twenty-five. SO~E HON. MEMBE~S: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: The han. member for Port de Grave. 9R. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I rise in support of this petition so ably presented by the han. member for Lewisporte (Hr. White). And in noing so in particular through my experience,I did take an active

part in having Ascension t Collegiate established at Ba y Roberts, I did serve on the board and at that time when we took on a programme or a drive to raise funds for that school, one of our best selling points was that we would have specialized teaching at this school and in particualr ph y sical education. I :; I I

::ay 16, 1978 Tape 3201 IB-2 HR. DA~<E: I can sympathize with the people of Loon Bay if they have to lose their physical education teachers because of the teacher cutback or some other reason. I know what physical education means for the outlying areas of St. John ' s and the lar 8 er centers and that it is taking ouite a

part in their curriculum • . It is some outside activity outside the schools, that they would have more time to divulge in than probably the larger centers. Physical education as we have all come to know it now is part of our educational system and I think that we should do our utmost and the minister should reconsider this and see if any way could be found to have this physical education teaching reinstated. I do not think I could point out a better example, Mr.· Speaker, of what physical education can mean in a small community.

If anyone read the sports page only this last weekend you will see that the pupils from Ascension Collegiate in Bay Roberts won practically all the major titles in badminton in this Province. This shows what proper physical education can do in the rural areas. I have therefore much pleasure, Mr. Speaker, in supporting this petition. t1R. SPEAKER : The han. Minister of Justice . l-!R. RICKMAc;: Mr. Speaker, I have the han. Premier's permission to speak and if I may have a couple of words - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. HICIG!AN: - in support of this petition.

One, I have to for self-protection having two children who are physical education graduates. If I do not support a petition asking for physical education teachers it may make things rather difficult for me at home. But be that as it may, Mr. Speaker, this petition and the support thereof for this petition seems to have somewhat developed into a debate. Th ere are some very ' li ~ •t J• !. .< tl li I· ' I. t , !

vay 16, 1978 Tape 3201 IB- 3 l1R . RICXMAN: significant facts that should be brought to the attention of the aouse in support of this petition. The suggestion by the hon. member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) that there has been no improvement, virtually no improvement in the last three of four yea rs and I respond, I am supporting in kind the same way as the hon. member for 3ellevue and I am sure that I will be entitled to the same silence that the hon. g~ntleman was, Mr. Speaker, when he spoke. !!R. SPEAI~ER: Order, please! The hon. gentleman does have the right to be heard without interruption. !!R.

RICIC!AN: It is significant, Mr. Speaker, that i n 1972 , that is about six years ago, the basic pupil- teacher allocation was one to thirty-five in the Provin ce of Jewfoundland. It is now one to twenty-six . And the problem that we are addressing ourselves to is whether the holding of the line there is causing any serious,at this time,affect or downgrading of I 1: [ I·

:lay 16, 1978 Tape No. 3202 .1:'! - 1 }!R. HICKMAN: -<~Ut! the quality of education. A.."""l.d in addressing I ourselves to this petiton, Mr. Speaker, we have to also bear in mind some other very significant facts that between the school years 1973-1974 and the year 1977-78 student enrollments in the Province of Newfoundland decreased by 3,669. During that same period, Hr. Speaker, classroom and specialist teachers increased by 539 and special education teachers by 154 for a total increase of 693 additional teachers during the same period that the student population decreased by 3,669.

Now that does pose the question, Mr. Speaker, as to how much,if any, the quality of education is being affected at this time. As I hear and meet with teachers 1 and at the meeting that we had with the executive of the NTA just before Easter 7 my reading of the concern of the NTA is not this year.

Their concern is that as it is obvious that the declining school enrollment 'rill continue, it is projected I think there will be another 1,000 by 1980, that if we continue to maintain that present ratio that then we may find that there would ,have to be some changes made in the school programmes which may not be as desirable as one would wish. But, Mr. Speaker, may I in closing in supporting this petition point out to this House again and repeat what my colleague, the hen. Minister of Education has said that there has been no change in any regulation.

There has been no decision by government nor have the boards been told that special programmes must be discontinued,or any special programme. These special programmes, Mr. Speaker, are not affected by any change in regulations. The number of specialists assigned to any board or teaching unit assigned to any board, specialist teaching unit has not been decreased. If there are any layoffs, Hr. Speaker, in the specialist areas of art and music and guidance it may be that these school boards have made a deliberate decision that these programmes are not of the same importance as some others.

Now that falls within the total and exclusive prerogative of boards and hen. gentlemen will realize that you will find very diverse vie~vs amongst educators and certainly you • 1 l i j '

}lay 16, 1978 Tape ?~o. 3202 .]}! - 2 :-!R. HICKMAN: will find very diverse views amongst specialist teachers as to where the greatest emphasis should be placed. There Hould be no difficulty at all that if we had before this House today a dozen qualified physical education graduates that they would very convincingly present to this House arguments which would suggest that we are spending far too much time on matters academic and matters in the finer arts. And I am sure, Mr. Speaker, .Ehat if we brought in some other teachers they might make us convincing arguments the other way. But, Mr.

Speaker, let the word go out that during this time when we have heard the allegations particularly from the han. member for Bellevue that there has not been any progress during the past five years, I l(d.ll say there has been progress during the past five years. 693 additional teachers with the Jeclininll: population that has dropped by 3,669 and that is a recor d , Hr. Speaker, that this administration can be proud of. SONE HON. HIDffiERS : Hear! Hear! HR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Burin-Placentia West. XR. CANNING: Hr.

Speaker, the petition before the House now is similar to a petition that I presented to the House a few days ago or a few weeks which is identical, the same thing, We have had the same arguments on both sides of the House, those who were for it who were supporting it and those who were against it. ~-!r. Speaker, I heard the :-Iinister of Education a few moments ago saying he did not know if it was goinll: to affect physical education or he does not lcnow if there is something to replace it, Mr.

Speaker, my petition was to ask the government for heaven's sake to hold off cutting down on teachers because in one school alone I was losing three and in that school it is going to affect education and music and guidance and so on. ~r. Speaker, if that number of teachers are going then it is a retro2:ressive step ll !I •: ,; i

May 16, 1978 Tape No. 3203 RT-1 MR. P. CANNING: and so on. Think of the number of teachers who are going, it is a retrogressive step. MR. CALLAN: Retrogressive. MR. P. CANNING: Mr. Speaker, I support it and I will challenge the member for Burin - MR. CALLAN: Well challen~;e him. 'Jim Morc;an" challenged - MR. P. CANNING: - to come with me to the high school at Marystown, the Central High School at Marystown, to come with me to Salt Pond, to come with me to Grand Bank and Lawn, and put up his case there to the people who are concerned.

Let him get up among the parents and the teachers who know what they are talking about. MR. CALL&'I: water.sprinkler on. MR. P. CANNING: C',.et up on the lawn and turn the Let him come up there and discuss it. Now, Mr. Speaker, there is nobody in this House more interested in education than I am because I have reason to be. I had to go to a cold, unheated school with ninety or one hundred students where one teacher had to teach from Grade I to XI - MR. CALLAN: He went out to Whitbourne in a helicopter. MR. P. CANNING: and, Mr. Speaker, I did not have the opportunity of finishing.

I had to finish my education here at the age of thirty, what education I got to prepare me to go out into the world. Mr. Speaker, I have been in this House with the previous administration and in my five minutes I would not cover how things were then and how we progressed since. There is only one thing I can say, that the previous administration always had education as a priority, it always got it, we closed the gap between ourselves and the Mainland, we closed the gap between the equality of education in the cities and the rural areas.

Hay 16, 1978 Tape No. 3203 RT-2 HR. RIDEOUT: If there is one thing we did, it was in the field of education. I will guarantee you that. MR. P; CANNING: If there is one thing we did, Ur. Speaker - I could not imagine a man like Dr. Frecker or a man like Dr. Rowe getting up and making the same speech as the han. ~finister just made now. - ~1R. SDJMONS: Even changed the name from - MR. P. CANNING: - because those two men in particular in the previous administration did more for education for this Province than any two men before them did.

They did more for education in this Province than any two men in any other province since Canada was Canada, and I am proud of it. If there is anything that I am proud of in the previous administration or the previous itinisters of Education we had is the strides which were made in education. SOME RON. MEMBERS : Rear, hear! MR. P. CANNING: Now, Mr. Speaker, I seriously and wholeheartedly support this petition. SOME RON • MEMBERS : Rear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: Han. Minister of Consumer Affairs. 'MR.. A.

MURPHY: I would just like to bring to the attention of the han. member who just sat down that he challen~ed the member for Burin. I do not think he meant that really, and perhaps, rather than appear so foolish in Hansard afterwards that it might be corrected. I guess he challenged the member for Grand Bank (Mr. Hickman). MR. P. CANNING: I am very sorry. He was for a long time the Liberal member for Burin, what we always called the Burin distrt~~; now he is the Tory member for Grand Bank, and that is the gentleman I was referring to.

And I hope he does come with me to the Burin Peninsula to see what the people think of him, what he thinks of these retrogressive steps. SOME RON • MEMBERS : Oh, oh! i t li II r i

May 16, 1978 Tape No. 3203 RT-3 MR.. SPEAKER: Order, please! Are there any reports of outstanding and special committees? Notices of Motion? Answers to questions? Notices of Motions. MR. A. HICKMAN: On behalf of my colleague, the hon. the Minister of Tourism, I give notice that I will on tomorrow introduce a bill,

An Act to Amend the Wildlife Act. MR. SPEAKER: Answers to questions for which notice has been given. Oral questions. Ron. Leader of the Opposition. MR. W. ROWE: Mr. Speaker, as I was saying on this subject before I was so rudely interrupted a day or two ago - SOME RON • MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. W.N. ROWE: -will the Premier indicate, Sir, especially with regard to this intriguing final paragraph in that spontaneous letter of May lOth, in the middle of the debate in this House, from one Craig L. Dobbin, where he talks in terms of - MR.. A. HICKMAN: On a point of order. ~IR.

SPEAKER: A point of order has been called. MR. A. HICKMAN: I submit that a matter that has been disposed of by way of motion - MR. S. NEARY: Closure! MR. A. HICKMAN: - is disposed of - MR. S. NEARY: Is this closure now? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. A. HICKMAN: I submit that a matter that has been disposed of by way of motion, debated, and the motion dealt with, cannot again be discussed during the same session of this Rouse. SOliE RON • MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Ron. Leader of the Opposition. i r: f.

May 16, 1978 Tape No. 3203 RT-4 MR. oT .N. ROWE : I am going to ask a question, Sir, about things that might have taken place yesterday, since the debate, or it may take place in the future, have nothing at all to do with what was debated, Mr. Speaker. II t! I ~ ~ ..

~~ay 16, 1978 Tape :<o, 3204 JM- 1 l{R, W.N. ROHE: surely Your Honour will not be influenced by this attempted cover up once more. MR. NEARY: They are not goin2 to cover it up. ~m.. SPEAKER: Order, please! The hen. gentleman is asking a question and I do not know yet what indeed the question is. There is a rule with respect to what the House has made a decision on and what the House has made a decision on cannot be the subject of another debate i I, or of comment or reflection and that would be reflection on a decision of the House.

It can only be done, I think)through substantive motion by which a notice ~•auld be given. That is quite clear, When the House has made a decision on something it is unparliamentary to refer to it or to renew the debate. But I am not in a position to state that that indeed is the case. I am not in a position to state that that rule has been infringed as of now. The bon. Leader of the Opposi~ion, MR. W.N. ROWE: That is right, Mr. Speaker. The hon. ~linister of Justice - HR. NEARY: You are not going to shut us up you know. !1R. W.N. ROWE: The hon.

Hiniste l!lf Justice mav want to keep us quiet on this subject but he is not going to succeed, !ir. Speaker. !1R. HICRMAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. ~. SPEAKER: A point of order. ~1R. HICRMAN: The hon. gentleman is imputing motives. I have the perfect - Any hon, member in this House has an absolute right and indeed an obligation if he or she sees that a rule is being infringed to draw that to the attention of the Speaker and I suggest to you, ~r.

Speaker, that the reason why I rose was not to impede-debate or restrict debate or restrict questions but the han. the Leader of the Opposition when he rose referred to a letter which he said was a subject matter of the debate sometime last week and if you know - ~. SPEAKER: On the specific point made by the hon. gentleman that any hon. member has a right to raise a point of order is certainly a valid one. The han. Leader of the Opposition.

~ay 16, 1978 Tape No. 3204 JM - 2 ~fR. W.N. ROlVE: Yes, ~r. Speaker, nobody disputes that. It is also note~·rorthy that the '1inister of Justice, Government House Leader is defeated . on so many points of order that he raises before this House. Now, Sir, to refer to the question which they are trying to cover up, this int!'iguing final paragraph in a letter which says from Ur. Craig L. Dobbin to the Premier on May lOth, right in the middle of the debate - "My total out of pocket expenses at this stage are substantial," based on the agreement, Sir, that was debated earlier.

"My total out of pocket expenses at this stage are substantial and I a1·rait a definite statement as to your government's policy in this regard." Obviously an indication by Mr. Dobbin that he expects to be reimbursed for the out of pocl~et expenses he made in pursuance of the agreement bet111een hinself and the government signed, witnessed by the Premier. Will the Premier indicate to t:"le :louse, Sir, ~~hether it is the government 1 s policy to reimburse Hr. Craig Dobbin for the out o~ pocket expenses incurred by him in pursuance of that agreement and the Cabinet directive? lfR. SPEAKER: The hen. Premier.

PREI1IER :MOORES: Xr. Speaker, with regard to any questions regarding office space as they were discussed in that particular debate I will gladly answer them f:~:om any of those !uembers who left the House. When the hen. Leader of the Opposition says I did not deliberately mislead this House then I will answer the question pertaining to that sub.iect. ~. W.N. ROWE: A supplementary, Sir. c!R. SPEAKER: A supplementary. :m.. W.N. ROWE: A supplementary, Sir. I hope the Premier does not hold his breathe, Sir, waiting for me to withdraw that. ~lR. ~lEARY: Coward. Coward.

Too cowardly to answer. ,\N HON. ~~ER: Get your marbles and go home. ~r:t. !lEARY: Yes, again and again and again. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I must insist all han. members during the question period and during all periods one person heard at a time and I ask all hen. members to follow that. :!R. \LN. ROWE: Let me ask the Premier a supplementary, Sir. Will I 11 ii I :I ;~ ~~ !!

clay 16, 1973 Tape No. 3204 Jlf - 3 HR. W.N. P..OWE: the Premier indicate to the House whether now he will not answer the question as to whether the government's policy is or is not to reimburse his friend, }rr. Dobbin for out of pocket expenses in pursuance of the agreement signed between him and the government three years ago, will the Premier indicate whether the Cabinet directive which incorporated the proposals and the ideas and the substantive terms of that agreement whether that Cabinet directive has been rescinded b~ the government as of now? ~lit. SPEAKER: The hen. Premier. PREMIER MOORES: Mr.

Speaker, once again the same reply as before. You cannot rescinded a Cabinet directive before you have had an Order in Council and that was never issued. But I would like to hear the hen. Leader of the Opposition, Sir, he said that we would wait a long ~•hile to hear him withdraw that statement but I do not see why if ~.e feels that ••ay he should not make it again. I mean. does he not have guts enough to say it in the House today? MR. W.N. ROWE: A supplementary, Sir. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary. HR. NEARY: The arrogance of the han. Premier. MR. W.N.

ROWE: If the Premier will not answer any questions, Sir, on that vital topic ~vell still on the subject, Sir, of unwholesome relations between the government and the Premier's friend, Craig Dobbin, let me ask . '

Hay 16, 1978 Tape 320 5 IB-1 MR . H. !tOHE : this question of the Premier. Inasmuch as it has been admitted that the Director of Air Services, Ted Piercey~ flew a helicopter belonging to Mr. Dobbin from-Houston, Texas apparently to this Province; and inasmuch as it has been admitted that llr. Piercey apparently has , say, influence or 1 in fact, decision making capacity as to quotas to be set and hours to be set for ' helicopters under contract from Mr.

Dobbin to this government, Sir, will the Premier indicate what disciplinar y measures the government intends to take on this blatant conflict of interest on the part of Mr. Ted Piercey, the Director of Air Services? Is there going to be some disciplinary measures or actions taken against that sentleman? MR. NEARY: Apart from a little rap on the knuckles. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. ~!R. DOODY: Mr. Speaker, I have already indicated to the Rouse that the Deputy Minister of the Department of Transportation and Communications has written Hr.

Piercey and had written some time prior to the matter being raised in the House that it was in the opinion of the department that Mr. Piercey's actions in participatins in t~e flight of the helicopter from Houston to St. John's could be construed by some people as being a possible conflict of interest and he was reminded that he should not do this sort of thing and has been asked not to do it again. That is the action that has been taken in that particular regard, Sir. HR. NEARY: A supplementary quest ion, ~1r . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon. member for LaPoile. MR.

NEARY: Would the hon. minister indicate whether Mr. Pier ce y, the Director of Air Services, had any input 1 [

:!ay 1 6 , 1 9 7 8 Tape 3205 IB-2 HR. NEARY ; into the agreement between the government of this Province and Sealand helicopters and if the same gentleman had any input into the number of hours over and above the contract that apparently somebody can authorize as the minister indicated yesterday 7 before he became closely associated and identified himself with Sealand helicopters in going down and bringing back a helicopte~ and in other ways had become closely associated with the owner of that compan y ? ~!R. SPEAKER: The bon. minister. lfR. DOODY: The contract with Sealand Helicopters is not signed.

We have no contract as yet. That is still some where between the lawyers for the company and the lawyers for government. We are still in discussion on that particular subject and until such time as we get all the terms and conditions satisfactorily arranged there is no such contract. What was the other part of the question? AN HON. HEMBER: I believe it was input. -..!.'1R. DOODY: Oh that is right, did the Director of Air Services have any input into the terms of the contract . No that was a tender call Sir.

It was done through public tender and the tenders were open publicly and each interested company had the opportunit y to tender. There was no negotiation as such between the various tenderers. ~R. ~EARY: A supplementary question, Mr . Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. l1R. NEARY: Has the bon. minister investigated statements and allegations that were made by the Minister of Industrial Development's former executive assistant, Mr. Terry White, that the Director of Air Services was cavorting with Mr. ,. fi d I ~ 1

l1a y 16 , 19 7 8 Tape 3205 IB-3 l1R. NEARY: Craig Dobbin and other people at a certain cabin where they spent several days prior to the discussion of this contractJ Now we find out it is not a contract, this non-contract with Sealand Helicopters. Has the minister investigated that matter? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR. DOODY: As I indicated to the House several days ago, Sir, the Director of Air Services is out of the Province.

I do not know if I indicated to the House or if somebody in the House indicated to me but the fact of the matter is that he is on vacation somewhere in the sunny South and as I indicated before I envy him - HR. SIMHONS: Re is in Antigua with A.B. Walsh. He was with Dobbin for awhile. MR. DOODY: He is in Antigua, is he? I do not know . MR. NEARY: It is getting pretty crowded in Antigua too. MR. DOODY: I do not move in that circle. The hon. member opposite probably keeps closer tabs on who is in Costa Rica or Antigua or Panama or what but it is certainl y not in my area of influence nor my area of concern.

SOME RON. MEMBER: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! I must insist that the rules be observed and they are one speaker at a time and there should be no interruptions while an hon. member is speaking or while an hon. member is answering. :·!R. NEARY: A supplementary. We did not get the answer to the Terry White allegations and charges . !lR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. ~IR. NEARY: Could the mini~ter tell us if the minister has i nvestigated the charges that were made in the Terry i, ~~ ti I I~

.lay 16, 1978 Tape 3205 13-4 ~!R. NEARY : Hhite letter? HR. DOODY: I started to explain or tr y to explain to the hon. members opposite that the Director of Air Services has been out of the Province I I! II I l ·l P. .. :I t 1 ~ !I 'J I

May 16, 1978 Tape 3206 PK - 1 Mr. Doody: for the past several days,maybe a week or so. 1E..NEARY: He was not out then. MR. DOODY: And I have not had an opportunity to discuss the matter with him. I do not know what the conditions or circumstances are. It may evolve very reasonable,and very legitimate, and very sensible. He may very well have been en a hunting expedition or a fishing expedition. This is not an unknown phenomena in the Province of 'Tewfoundland. I understand that various and sundry people partake ?f that sport.

I myself I am not one of them, I have never had much desire to head out to the wilds and wilderness to try to catch all sorts of strange and wonderful animals, I have enough experience with them in this hen. House, Your Honour. MR. W. ROWE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. W.

ROWE: On the same subject, Sir, I was - members like myself I would imagine were astounded to hear that no contract has yet been signed between the government and Sealand Enterprises in spite of the fact that it was given out, that proposals were accepted by way of low tender. The tender was accepted, and now we understand from the minister that negotiations are still continuing on the subject. Will the minister tell us whether payments have been made out of the Treasury of this Province concerning Sealand Helicopters, and if so, some rough idea as to how much and why the contract if being negotiated to Mr.

Dobbin's satisfaction? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. DOODY: I can certainly take notice of that and find out for the hon. member. As the han. member suggested it is a matter between the lawyers for the two sides of the contract to decide the language of the contract. But as for the amounts of money that may have been paid that I will have to take notice of. MR. w. ROWE: Has money been paid out? MR. NEARY: A supplementary question, Mr. Speaker. MR. DOODY: I will have to check, I do not know. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary.

The hon. the member for LaPoile . l i i. ,, lj ~ : ~ ., 1: !i 11 ,. t. j . l I·

May 16, 1978 Tape 3206 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: Will the hon. gentleman indicate now then to the House, this is the first opportunity we have had, now we are getting some new information here, was Sealand the low bidder when the government called public tenders for the helicopter contract? Was Sealand the low bidder? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DOODY: The hon. the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Mr. Speaker, the tenders, I think, there were four or five tenderers on that particular contract.

They are opened publicly in the office persumably of the deputy minister or whichever officials officiate at the opening of tenders. The tender was awarded to the low bidder. But I would be only too happy to get copies of all the tenders and lay them on the Table of the House for those people who are .interested who were not present at the opening. It certainly does not bother me.I will bring up the whole bit and piece if it is the desire of the House. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary question then, Mr, Speaker. A supplementary. Would the hon. gentleman table the bids tomorrow?

And would the hon. gentleman also indicate in tabling ·the bids whether the one that he is going to table for Sealand is the original one or did they get a second crack at it? Sealand? Was there two proposals submitted by MR. SPEAKER: MR. DOODY: The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. Mr. Speaker, there were no second cracks. I am not even going to stand up for that. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, I have a question or so for the Minister of Justice.

It relates to the charges being laid or about to be laid in connection with the Torbay Hangar situation. MR. HICKMAN: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order. MR. Sll!MONS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! I have to hear the hon. gentleman.

May 16, 1978 Tape 3206 PK - 3 MR. HICKMAN: The han. gentleman for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir (Mr. Simmons) said it is relating to charges about to be laid. MR. SIMMONS: Yes,that is right. MR. RICKMAN: ' If he had been present in the House he would have known that charges have been laid. And that being the case the case the matter is most definitely sub judice. AN RON. MEMBER: A supplementary. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Speaker, may I speak to the point of order? MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMONS: May I speak to the point of order? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR. SIMMONS: Mr.

Speaker, I submit that the Minister of Justice is now abusing this sub judice term altogether. I understand the limits within which we must ask the questions. I am not going to say anything anything in my questions which would ~ena to prejudice the outcome or tend to prejudice the hearing, I want some basic information that should be available to the public. I would suggest it is now available to parts of t~e public. I want,as a member of this House for my own edification, and I give, Mr.

Speaker, in the House my undertaking that the types of questions I am going to ask are in no way either designed no~ I believe will they, incidentally have any adverse or prejudicial effect on the court proceeding itself. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER: I can only say that obviously when a matter is before the courts the sub judice convention comes into play and it is something which has in this House always been recognized.

On Friday, I believe it was 1 a question or two was asked and answered and at that time I pointed out the rule. 1be question or two or three which were asked then were , in my opin:l.on, questions dealing with the administrative functions of the Department of Justice. And I ' J "

Nay 16 , 197 8 Ta pe 32 07 I B-1 HR . SPEAKER: distinction has to be made between that and what is before the court to be judged by the court and the nature of the charges are obviously among those things and constitute a large part of those things which are before the court. So all I will do _, is ask the han. gentlemen to bear closely in mind this distinction and the importance of observing the conventions. ~iR. SIMMONS: Thank you, l!r . Speaker, fo:EO your advice. I had no intention of doing otherwise. As a matter of fact)the minister in his point of order alludes to the first matter that I wanted to raise. There is some confusion as to whether indeed the charges had been laid or what th