June 3, 1993

GOVERNMENT SERVICES ESTIMATES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Mr. Nick Careen,

M.H.A. (Placentia) substitutes for Mr. Fabian Manning, M.H.A. (St. Mary's - The

Capes).

The Committee met at 7:00 p.m. in the House of

Assembly Chamber.

MR. CHAIRMAN (Oldford): Ladies and gentlemen we

are going to get the proceedings underway. My name is Doug Oldford and I am the

chairperson for the Government Services Committee. We are here tonight to look

at the estimates for the Department of Works, Services and Transportation. I

welcome you, minister and your officials.

I want to introduce our Committee, on my left is

Roger Fitzgerald. Roger is the vice-chairman and he is the Member for Bonavista

South. Over here is Lloyd Matthews, the Member for St. John's North and next to

him is John Crane, the Member for Harbour Grace and then we have Nick Careen the

Member for Placentia who is sitting in for Fabian Manning who is away on

constituency business. Next to Nick is Walter Noel, the Member for Pleasantville

and then Jack Byrne, the Member for St. John's East Extern.

The meeting is scheduled for tonight from 7:00 -

10:00 p.m. It could go longer depending on how we get through the questions and

answers. The minister will have fifteen minutes to introduce his staff and to

make his opening remarks. The vice-chair or his designate will have fifteen

minutes to respond or to begin the questioning. In turn, each member on a

rotating basis, government member and opposition, will have ten minutes to ask

questions and to solicit answers from the minister and his staff. I will ask the

officials to identify themselves when they speak for recording purposes. Other

than that, I think that is basically how we are going to operate, the same as we

have done in the last two or three meetings.

Now, Mr. Minister, if you would like to introduce

your staff and lead off, please.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It is my pleasure to introduce Mr. Lew White,

sitting on my right, the Deputy Minister of Works, Services and Transportation.

Mr. Harold Stone ADM Finance and Administration. Mr. John O'Reilly ADM

Transportation. Mr. George Greenland, sitting right behind me, ADM of Works and

Ramona Cole, Director of Financial Operations.

I will just take a few minutes and run through some

notes that I have here. Mr. Chairman, as you know, the Department of Works,

Services and Transportation is the largest department of this government. We

provide facilities and service to other departments of government and to the

general public. The permanent staff compliment numbers approximately 2,000 and

we employ many other Newfoundlanders on a seasonal basis. We operate seven

regional offices across this Province. We are involved in programs such as

building maintenance and construction, road maintenance and construction, ferry

operations, air services, government purchasing and motor vehicle licensing and

inspections.

First of all I will take you to some of the things

that we do in the road construction. The department's road construction program

from `93-94 consist of two federal/provincial cost shared funding agreements in

addition to the provincial road program. $30 million has been budgeted under the

Trans-Canada Highway initiative. However, my department will be tendering

projects to the value of $33 million to ensure the expenditure of $30 million.

$20 million has been budgeted under the regional trunk roads agreement and

again, as in the case with the Trans-Canada Highways initiative, my department

will be tendering projects to the value of $22 million to ensure a $20 million

expenditure. Funding of $25.5 million is being provided for the provincial roads

program in the fiscal year `93-94. Projects will be carried out throughout the

Province and have been allocated by the department on the basis of priority

needs.

I shall highlight some of the more noteworthy;

upgrading and paving of 3.8 kilometres of road from Little Bay to Beau Bois, as

the hon. Minister of Social Services calls it; upgrading of 6 kilometres

section

of Island Harbour Deep, Bay Road; paving Harbour Mille Road, approximately 11.2

kilometres. Construction of a new access road to Margaree, approximately 2.5

kilometres, the present access will be abandoned when the new access is opened;

resurfacing approximately 9 kilometres of Southeast Placentia Road from the beat

in Placentia to Southeast including the upgrading and paving of an additional

1.2 kilometres which is built up with housing; resurfacing the main road from

the wharf in Norris Point to and through Rocky Harbour to the park boundary,

approximately 11 kilometres; paved road to the Great Brehat, St. Carols and St.

Anthony, by approximately 12 kilometres; paving of the Route 232 Waterville to

Burgoynes Cove, approximately 9.8 kilometres.

Now, you can see that there is no favouritism shown

here. There is not one thing about the Port de Grave district.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: In all, my department will be

tendering contracts to the value of $80.5 million, this represents a substantial

investment, the highway infrastructure. Construction of buildings in 93-94: the

department will again undertake $14.1 million in alterations to its existing

building inventory. We will also be expending $29.9 million for new facilities;

the majority of this funding will be used to continue work on major projects

including the Centre for Engineering Technology, the Cancer Research facility

and a Clinic Nursing Station at Nain. Funding is also provided for the extension

to the St. Anthony Hospital and the Blue Crest Interfaith Home in Grand Bank and

for the redevelopment of the Lions Manor in Placentia.

In the Motor Registration Division, during 1992 the

Province again experienced a decrease in the number of fatalities resulting from

motor vehicles accidents, down from sixty-nine in 1990 and forty-eight in 1991

to a low of thirty-nine in 1992. The decrease can mainly be attributed to

government's driver licensing system and promotional programs, and I might say

that has been the best numbers of all across Canada, and it has been very

successful. The Province seat belt wearing rate has increased to 95 per cent and

was also the highest in Canada.

We have this year also been responsible now for

mail services and in 93-94 the operation of the government mail service division

has been moved to this department and this should improve the efficiency of this

valuable government service.

What I want to say without taking up too much time,

is that this is a relatively new department for me. My past experience was, as

you all know, in the first two years in Cabinet I was in Social Services and

then two years later I spoke on fisheries, but it is my pleasure now - and I

have only been there a week, but I find it a very interesting department as I

said in my opening remarks, it is about 25 per cent of the total operations of

the government but it is a totally new field for me and I look forward to the

continuing support of my staff, which, I have no doubt I will be getting as I

learn the operations of the department and to get a feel for it - it is almost

like an octopus, the arms are spread out right across the Province.

I intend as soon as the House of Assembly closes,

to do much travelling across the Province, not only to familiarize myself with

the organizational structure of the department and meet as much staff as

possible, but also to get out in the districts and work with the MHAs in all

districts, and try to familiarize myself with the needs of the Province and

hopefully, as the minister, then I can come back more experienced in the Fall in

being able to deal with the necessary responsibilities as being minister under

these restraints and the economic conditions. This department is one of the

departments that really has to be very responsible in how it allocates its

funding and the decisions that are being made, so I can assure you people that I

will give you every opportunity to make you aware of the needs in individual

districts and as the year goes on and the needs are being made aware to me as

minister, we will try to be as co-operative as possible.

I do not think there is anything else further, Mr.

Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, sir, short and to the

point.

Mr. Fitzgerald.

MR. FITZGERALD: Which is the way it should be.

Thank you, Mr. Minister. Being a new MHA, I

certainly have not had the privilege of meeting any of your staff and I hope to

get to know them and get to know yourself as time goes by. I am certain that if

you live up to your commitments, you will work with individual MHAs and the

problems in their areas, and there is no reason why work cannot be allocated

very fairly and go where the need is greatest. You can be sure that we will hold

you to that statement as time proceeds.

A couple of questions that I have noted here: I am

wondering how you allocate work, work on highways, and what criteria you use in

order to give work the priority that you would classify it as being needed to be

done this year or another year?

MR. EFFORD: When you say the work on the

highways, are you talking about the federal agreements?

MR. FITZGERALD: No, I am talking about the

provincial routes.

MR. EFFORD: Well, it is basically done on

whether the department sees the need. The engineering department will look at

the highroads and the condition of the roads, if you are talking about the road

improvement program, and it will be based on need as any highway would be, as

any road construction would be.

MR. FITZGERALD: I do not want to have everybody

getting into the problems probably in their own districts because maybe that is

not what this type of meeting is meant to be, but I know in the district that I

represent, there is a stretch of highway leading from King's Cove to Plate Cove,

in the Summertime it's a nice highway to drive over, but if you go there in the

Wintertime and you talk to the people who operate the school buses there, you'll

find that the school children get sick, they continually break springs off in

the buses and what have you, where the road is in such a bad condition. I

suppose our weather being what it is the road heaves up. It's a terrible road.

I'd like for you to take a note of that, sir, and have a look at it as time goes

by.

MR. EFFORD: If you'd look at the amount of

money that the department spends on road construction it's not a large amount of

money for the amount of road that the Department of Works, Services and

Transportation would be responsible for. So what the department must do is to

take a look at all the roads across the Province and try to do reasonably well

prioritizing the roads that need to be done. Always, no matter even if the

particular piece of road that you're talking about, was done up to the grade

that you say it should be done, you can name hundreds of other pieces of road,

areas of road, stretches of road across the Province, that would have the same

complaint.

So it's working within the amount of money that is

allocated to the department for that maintenance and upgrading program and

reconstruction of roads. If there's a particular problem with a particular piece

of road that it's as bad as you say it is, if you went to the regional

department of highway depot and spoke to the area manager there, I'm sure they

could do some maintenance on it, if it's not to the satisfaction of the people

in the area.

MR. FITZGERALD: Salt storage sheds. I

understand it's the policy of the Department of Works, Services and

Transportation this past number of years to be encouraging, if not demanding,

municipalities to vacate the salt storage sheds in providing storage for their

own salt and sand for municipal purposes. Are we looking at reducing the number

of salt storage sheds that we have on the Island?

MR. EFFORD: Mr. White.

MR. WHITE: No, we have no intention of

decreasing the numbers. We have usually an allocation every year. I imagine it's

in here. Probably $100,000, $150,000 a year we get for maintaining the existing

ones we have and building new ones. We have accommodated municipalities by

storing salt or salt and sand mixtures for them when we have the capacity in the

sheds that we own. As the road network, more and more of it gets paved,

naturally we need more and more salt ourselves. We have had some difficulty in a

few places that we don't have the capacity to store indoors for municipalities.

We may have to store it on our property and cover it with tarpaulins or

something like that. We go out of our way whenever we can to accommodate

municipalities. You're probably aware that we go to municipalities and ask them

what their requirements are for salt in a particular Winter so their quantities

can be combined with ours to get a better price. We cooperate with them that

way.

MR. FITZGERALD: So it's due mainly to a lack of

storage space with your own space being used up for your own needs.

MR. WHITE: Yes. I mean, wherever we have

capacity we will accommodate the municipalities.

MR. FITZGERALD: On page 62 of the Estimates

1993, speaking of the salt storage sheds, if you'd look under that heading

there, 2.2.06, it shows Supplies there. The budget for 1993 showed $65,000, the

revised budget was $35,000, and the 1993-1994 estimates is $165,000. I'm

wondering what those supplies are and why the vast difference from 1992-1993?

MR. WHITE: We build these sheds ourselves so

the supplies are the materials that we use to build them. The salaries is the

labour that we used in building the sheds.

MR. FITZGERALD: Does that mean there'll be no

more salt storage sheds being built?

MR. WHITE: No. The budget for 1993-1994, if you

look there, it's $200,000. It's our intention this year to build $200,000 worth,

which will probably be close to three sheds. Their cost, if my memory's right,

around $70,000?

MR. O'REILLY: The price of the salt sheds now

has gone up to about $100,000.

MR. WHITE: Okay.

MR. O'REILLY: Most of this money will be used

to repair the existing sheds we have.

MR. FITZGERALD: So it won't be to build new.

MR. O'REILLY: It won't produce any new - we may

get one new one out of it, but we do have - the sheds are getting old and we

need to carry out maintenance on them. So the $200,000 is to repair what we have

as well as build any new.

MR. FITZGERALD: In the particular area that I

live, which is Musgravetown, there is a fair amount of talk about a lot of the

highroad's depots being closed down and one depot being built to combine the two

or three in the particular area. I think of Lethbridge, Southern Bay, and I

think it is Upper Amherst Cove. Is there any truth to a combination or bringing

together some of those highway depots in one central area right now?

MR. EFFORD: The department is looking at an

organizational restructuring of the whole department. There has been no final

decision made yet. If the department is ready to move and close down certain

areas or change in structure then we will make that announcement at that

particular time.

MR. FITZGERALD: Is it being looked at now, Mr.

Minister.

MR. EFFORD: The total reorganization of the

department is being looked at.

MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We go to Mr. Matthews.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, I am tempted to ask some questions

and have a little discussion about the most talked about road in the Province

and that is the one that does not even exist, the Outer Ring Road. Being from

St. John's North the temptation is all the greater, but I am going to resist

that temptation in the interest of probably talking about things that are more

significant because they are ongoing in terms of existing roads and that. I

would like to ask the minister if it would not seem sensible, given the economic

times we are in, nationally and, of course, as a Province, if we could not

encourage at least the federal government to enter into some new dialogue with

respect to the Rails for Roads money just to ensure that, not to the detriment

of this area, but to the further consideration of the whole Province, whether or

not some of that money could not be better spent or allocated elsewhere?

MR. EFFORD: There is no doubt about it that the

amount of money in the Roads for Rails agreement is not going to address the

needs of the whole Province in the building of new roads and deal with the

transportation needs of the future. It is government's intention to always have

an open discussions with the federal government into whatever changes can be

made but you have to remember that if you take money away from a particular area

and move it to another part of the Province you are not going to address the

needs of the department which you take it away from. It is going to be pretty

difficult under the present system to get the federal government to make any

major changes, but wherever there is an necessity to do that discussions are

ongoing on a full-time basis. I quite agree that there are a lot of areas in the

Province where monies could be well spent but if you are talking about, for

argument sake, moving some money out of the area of St. John's and moving it to

another part of the Province you would get 1000 arguments as to why it should

stay and 1000 arguments why it would go, but dialogue is always open and there

are ongoing discussions. It is very difficult to get the federal government to

make any changes to the original agreement. Have there been any made Lew?

MR. WHITE: No, there have not been any made to

the existing Roads for Rails agreement. As the minister said we are constantly

pressuring the federal government for more cost-shared agreements on roads. As

you all know the federal deficit being what it is and the fact that highways are

a provincial responsibility it is not an easy sell.

MR. EFFORD: Unless we were lucky enough to get

a more co-operative government in Ottawa. Possibly after September we may see

somebody of our own stripe up there and then it might be a lot easier.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Well, you will definitely have

a new one to work with but whether the colour be right or not history or the

future will tell us that.

In terms of the cost-sharing of road projects

generally with the feds, how many agreements are presently in place and what

dollars are involved in these agreements? Percentage-wise I am thinking of now

rather than in specific cases. Is there much federal money still committed to us

as a Province that we are working through programs on?

MR. EFFORD: The only one we have now is the

Roads for Rails agreement which was a total of $800 million, is that correct?

MR. WHITE: Yes.

MR. EFFORD: And that is 100 per cent funded

federally because, as you know, they took away the railway and under those

conditions they replaced it with that amount of money.

MR. WHITE: That agreement will go for about

another ten years and it will be $50 million federal money a year, $30 million

for the Trans-Canada and $20 million for secondary trunk roads. The roads are

all identified as to which ones will be done. Naturally every area wants theirs

done first but we can only do $20 million a year. So, it comes down to a

selection process each year, some win and some have to wait.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Just one other question at

this point, Mr. Minister, and it relates to whether or not - I wanted to ask in

a general, in a very general sense, if you could indicate to me, to the

Committee, how involved financially does the Province get with the City of St.

John's in terms of providing funds for roads within the boundaries of the city?

MR. EFFORD: None, only to whatever the road

grant component would be to municipal affairs but other than that - no direct

funding to the City of St. John's for any road maintenance.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: If in the event the city or

the Province or in combination wanted to do further major work or build another

road similar to the crosstown arterial, how is that paid for? How is it funded?

How is it cost shared, or is it?

MR. EFFORD: That would not be for municipal,

that would be the responsibility of the federal agreements and if not in the

federal agreements, provincial, usually you go after the federal money for that.

Is that correct?

MR. WHITE: The minister is correct. Most of the

work we have done in the past on the crosstown and there was some work done last

year down near the CN viaduct, that was shared between the federal government

and the city. The funds were through us but it did not cost us any money, we

were just a facilitator.

In the past, it was years ago now but the Province

and the city cost shared upgrading of the Philip Parkway here but since those

days there really has not been any cost shared agreements, not between our

department and the city.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: I guess the short question I

wanted to ask really is, as a Member for St. John's, how can I get some money

for my district, for the roads in my district?

MR. WHITE: I think if you look at our records

you will not see any expenditures in any of the St. John's districts for years

going back, not capital expenditures.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: So, if I get some off the hon.

minister I will be breaking history, hey?

MR. EFFORD: If fact, the intention of the

department now, has been and will be more stronger into the future, is to try to

get consensus from all the municipalities right across the Province to be

responsible for all the roads within their jurisdiction because in some areas,

in the smaller incorporated municipalities around the Province, Transportation

is responsible for some of the roads. There is always a cross

section of each

other so the intention is to work very diligently and hopefully agreements will

be made to get this out of the picture altogether. Municipalities will be

responsible and the provincial government will have their own, outside of all

municipalities.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Minister and

thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Careen.

MR. CAREEN: A short question, Sir, continuing

on with what the Member for St. John's North had to say, getting into the

municipalities - I am going to open a can of worms but you take for instance

certain areas where they amalgamate separate towns. If they amalgamate for

instance the Dunville, Jerseyside, Placentia and Freshwater areas. I can see

those places having difficulties because I am very familiar with this island. I

have been lucky enough having worked with the railway for fifteen years to know

about a good many places. I wish you luck.

MR. EFFORD: Oh, we are able to convince people.

We have a good way of talking, convincing and getting an agreement out of it,

natural charm.

MR. CAREEN: Natural charm, yes. I am familiar

with that myself. I am not into budgetary things. The more safe things, we all

drive in this fog shrouded little island of ours. With the moose population as

it is sometimes you have to be watching out for a faded yellow line with one eye

and try to drive and look out for a moose with another eye. I would just like to

know from the officials, being where we are, is there any kind of a way to

handle this? Has anybody been toying with off the wall stuff that we can use to

make it safer to drive? Other countries who can afford such schemes have things

in the pavement, reflectors, lights and whatever.

AN HON. MEMBER: Kill a moose.

MR. CAREEN: I do not mind killing a moose but I

do not want to kill myself or see my neighbours or anybody else from that man's

district killed. I am just wondering if there is a safety aspect of it?

MR. EFFORD: Well, certainly safety is uppermost

on everybody's mind no matter where you live. As to killing moose I had an

experience myself a couple of years ago. I was coming in to work early in the

morning and one happened to be stood up in the middle of the road and it moved

pretty quick. It is the dollars and cents first of all. Just imagine if you are

going to look across the 565 miles, I do not know how many kilometres that is,

across Newfoundland and put a light like they do in some of the cities, some

other countries, it is dollars and cents. What is happening now in the Province

is as much as the Province can afford to do. I do not think in our time you will

see the day that the highways will be lighted up to that extend, only in

municipalities or in urban centres.

MR. CAREEN: I was talking about the centre line

of the highway.

MR. EFFORD: I know what you are talking about,

the centre line, instead of using the aluminum paint, the white or yellow paint

on the road. I think what you are seeing now is what is going to be there for

quite awhile. There are certainly no new plans.

MR. WHITE: A few years ago we tried those

reflectors you are talking about and the winter kills them. The snow plows snap

them off. They are suppose to go down when the weight comes on them but you know

in our temperatures when it freezes. If my memory is right we used them out on

Torbay Road or Portugal Cove Road some years ago. We tried them and they did not

last any length of time, they snapped them all off.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible) hills there on the

Trans-Canada as I recall. There may have been a problem with them in the

wintertime but they were a big help in the summertime when you get most of your

fog. They were quite visible at the time.

MR. EFFORD: What the deputy minister says is

quite right, if somehow someone could come up with an ingenious plan to change

the weather, get shorter Winter seasons, more sunshine, and less frost. That is

one of the major problems, the cost of doing that, and it is not something that

is long lasting.

MR. CAREEN: I am not a contractor and never

have been. I am lucky enough to make a living somewhere else or whatever. I have

been over a good many roads in this island and there is something that has

always bothered me. I am not shifting any blame on any government department or

whatever but after different contractors have done different roads they do not

seem to hold up. I do not know what the contractors are doing with their sand or

their gravel, something else, or whatever. I cannot go pointing fingers and I

will not point it at individual inspectors but when you pay good money to have

pavement done you would think it would last a little bit longer than it does. As

you were saying earlier about the lack of money, and you are right, and you are

trying to spread it out. If you are talking about a major thing like the

Trans-Canada, if they are not being kept up or if somebody is not doing their

job, then the little side roads in the little places where we all live are going

to suffer because you are going to have to go back to the places that were

originally done a lot quicker. Some of the work that has been done, like the

Argentia access road in certain places, and I am not pointing fingers,

particularly being the one I'm most familiar with, is between St. John's and

Whitbourne. So I don't know if you have to shift around inspectors or someone

has to keep a closer eye on the contractors.

MR. EFFORD: That was one of the first things,

as I said earlier, and as you all know I've only been in the department about a

little over a week. Just a week is it now? That's one of the first things and

questions that we discussed, because I pointed out in my own particular area

where I live the road was paved in 1966, and not until two, two and half years

ago, was it ever touched. Now there's a lot of problems with it.

There are a number of reasons for it. First of all,

the grade, the thickness of the pavement is what you have to consider, if you

decrease the thickness, if the proper drainage is not put in, and with the

amount of frost we have, I suspect that's probably what has happened over the

years. Everybody is trying to stretch the dollars and get as much mileage as you

can out of the amount of money that you have.

There's no doubt about it, it's something that

we've all got to be conscious of, and this department now is very conscious of

it. We'll be taking a look at that in the future. They have been, by the way.

I'm not saying that I'm going to do it, but they have been. But as dollars get

scarcer and more demands are made, we'll be making every effort to make sure

that the best product is done and we get the best value for the dollar we spend.

But there's a little more tightening up, a little more caution, and a little

more inspecting has to be done to make sure that the contractors are following

the proper, I guess, grades and mixtures.

MR. WHITE: Perhaps I could add. You have to

look at where we came from here. When you go back in my earlier years with the

department, I mean, the system was pretty well all gravel roads. Everybody

wanted pavement. So you had a limited number of dollars every year. As

engineers, if we went by the textbooks we wouldn't have done a lot of the things

we did in paving these roads. We would have probably gotten two kilometres of

good solid road, but instead of that we stretched it to ten. We've made the

government aware of these things. But the traffic volumes essentially most

everywhere in Newfoundland are very low, relative to anywhere else in Canada.

Our population is spread out to many small places. What we've done is stretched

our money, okay? There was never any problem with that for the first ten years

or so when you paved these roads because they lasted ten to fifteen years, which

is pretty well the life of a gravel road anyway without having it resurfaced.

Now we're finding that most of our system is all

paved, but it's starting to get old. You're getting these cracks. Once the

pavement starts to break, with the amount of salt and that that we use in the

Wintertimes, it looks awful bad, at least in the Spring. You've cited some

yourself, okay? So it was a conscious decision that the department made some

years ago to stretch the dollars. I mean, we put down on most all of our

secondary road systems two inches of asphalt. Most everywhere else in Canada

puts down three, four, five, six. Some of them even a foot of asphalt. So it's

really dollars and cents.

While you look at it now and do some criticism, I

think the people were well served by what we did. Rather than have to drive over

these desperate gravel roads that we had, I think we got our money's worth out

of it. I sound like I'm preaching, but I've been around a while.

MR. EFFORD: Just to add one more thing to that.

You have to remember too, since the railway disappeared, was taken away, the

amount of heavy transport trucks and the volume of traffic that's on your

highways, and all your roads now, compared to what it was ten, fifteen, twenty

years ago, is a significant increase, and that certainly has an impact. That's

the reason why this money now, the trunk road agreements and the other

agreement, is to build the roads to withstand the heavy volume of traffic. I

know just driving the short distance I do from Roach's Line in here on a daily

basis the amount of heavy tractor trailers that you meet is unreal. So that's

one of the big impacts on all our highways, you know.

MR. CAREEN: I wasn't saying that just to be

critical. There's a concern there, sir. That's all.

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. CAREEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Crane.

MR. CRANE: Yes. I haven't got many questions

for you. I'm not going to do anything to hurt you, dear, you're too kind. But

I'll tell you something -

MR. EFFORD: Don't say that (inaudible).

MR. CRANE: - I have to comment on some of the

statements being made. You're saying why the roads are not standing up. Some of

the people who we have out there supposedly protecting (inaudible) when these

jobs are being done are really not looking after the government's interests. I

can guarantee you on one instance in particular where I made an approach to a

person who was paving over a water spring in the road. Of course I'm not an

engineer. You know I'm not an engineer. I can't draw a straight line with a

ruler. But I know when a spring's coming up through the road that it's not going

to last if you pave it over. He paved it over even though I asked him not to.

Three weeks later the pavement, they had to cut it up again.

I don't know why a person would do that, a person

who's looking after the government's interest. I've seen on a couple of

occasions out in our area in the last two to three years, since I've been in

government, when... I don't know. The fellows are supposed to be engineers and

they say they're engineers, but some of the things they do.... On one occasion I

had to go get Tom Porter to straighten something out before the contractor left.

It'd make you believe either: a.) they're asleep, or b.) they're certainly not

thinking about what they're doing. The contractor doesn't give a hang. Once he

gets out of the town he doesn't care if you flood out or what happens to you. He

has his money and you have your road.

So that's the only thing I'm disappointed in. Some

of the people should be looking after our interest. When I say "our interest" I

mean government's interest. If you tell them something you see they get awfully

upset, especially if you're an MHA. They figure: what are you butting your nose

in here for, you don't know what you're talking about. But I know water doesn't

run uphill and a few other things. When I say that to somebody I expect them to

at least listen. I guarantee you, sometimes you don't get a very listening ear

and you're not very well treated when you do make a suggestion.

MR. EFFORD: John, I understand what you're

saying, but let me defend the department. I think it need defending. You're

talking about a department with 2,00 people

MR. CRANE: Oh, yes, I know that, yes.

MR. EFFORD: - on a full-time basis, and

hundreds and hundreds on a seasonal basis. It's a very large department. When

you get the amount of road maintenance, road building, that's being done on a

yearly basis there's always room for error. If all the staff out there were

absolutely perfect then we'd have a perfect world, but they're not. What I would

suggest to you, the people in the department are doing I think the best job they

can. There's room for mistakes. I would suggest to anybody, if they know of a

particular instance where this would be happening - and I'm sure it's not

widespread, it's probably occasional - it would be incumbent on yourself to

report that to the superintendent, possibly in a written letter. That way, if

there is a person with the department, if there is, then the proper action would

be taken.

MR. CRANE: Maybe -

MR. EFFORD: But hundreds and hundreds of miles

of roads are done on a yearly basis, and sometimes some person could, may very

well in error, or a mistake or whatever, or a little bit careless, but if it

should be drawn to the attention of the proper authorities in the department -

MR. CRANE: I never did handle it well, right?

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible).

MR. CRANE: I guess I should have reported it.

So I did a bad job. He was doing a bad job and so was I, right? But in the

meantime I assure you I won't let it happen it again.

MR. EFFORD: But on the whole you have to say

that the -

MR. CRANE: Oh, the cooperation -

MR. EFFORD: - department is not that bad.

MR. CRANE: The department in Bay Roberts that

we deal with is as cooperative as anybody.

MR. EFFORD: On a scale of 1 to 10 I call it

9.9.

MR. CRANE: I won't go that high, I'll go 9.8.

The former minister, advised me before he left

office and was so rudely interrupted that he never got back, the Conception Bay

North by-pass road was going to start. I haven't seen anything on that since.

MR. EFFORD: The agreement is made, signed, to

the satisfaction of all of the people in Conception Bay North because as you

remember yourself, you and I were very involved in very heavy discussions with

the department last year because of the people in our areas who did not know

where they wanted it.

MR. CRANE: They did not know where they wanted

it.

MR. EFFORD: Now that agreement has been

reached. In fact, just as early as this afternoon, the deputy minister showed me

the new route that is planned for the Conception Bay North pass which will meet

everybody's satisfaction in that area. I have noticed myself, just driving in

over Roaches Line, that there has been a lot of surveying being done. So,

tenders will be called in the very near future. You can speak to the amounts.

MR. WHITE: We have a cash flow, I think it is

somewhere around $2 million for this year. So, the project when it is called,

what we will do is more than $2 million but only $2 million to be spent this

year, the rest will come on next year. It will take a number of years before the

thing is finished, as you know.

MR. CRANE: Oh yes, but Mr. White, the main

thing is to get it started because it usually will get finished if you get it

started but if you do not get it started it might never get finished.

MR. EFFORD: That is the key, John, you are

absolutely right and being from that area, I know the importance of getting it

started. The volume of traffic that is going over that Conception Bay Highway

now, is really too much for it to be serviceable. So the commitment is being

made, tenders will be called soon and that money will be spent. You are quite

right, that once the start is made -

MR. CRANE: Yes. Where does it come off the

Trans-Canada, Mr. Minister? Where is it going to come off the Trans-Canada, west

of the overpass?

MR. WHITE: Right at Roaches Line.

MR. CRANE: Right at Roaches Line?

MR. WHITE: You use the first kilometre or two

kilometres of Roaches Line and then you go off to the left as you are going out

the -

MR. CRANE: I see.

MR. EFFORD: As you are coming out, take the

Trans-Canada coming up Roaches Line, you come over that first dip, that is where

I noticed all the pegs there?

MR. CRANE: Yes.

MR. EFFORD: That is where they are doing the

surveying there now and it will be ongoing from that.

MR. CRANE: Yes, okay.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: It should be done and paved in

no time, I would say now then, Mr. Minister.

MR. EFFORD: You got that right.

MR. CRANE: Well we will be pushing them. We

will not let you forget it, thank you, Sir.

MR. EFFORD: Priorities.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Crane. We move on

to Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I certainly would like to wish the minister well in

his new department and I look forward to working with yourself and the staff of

the department in the years to come.

I am here then to ask you a few questions, the

first one is of a general nature, in reviewing the estimates I noticed that a

fair number of the sub-headings have salary allotments increased, substantially

with some of them. I am just wondering, are some of the people that were

layed-off under the government policy last year or the year before, being

rehired through this department because the salaries have increased somewhat?

MR. EFFORD: No. On which page are you talking

about?

MR. J. BYRNE: Most of the sub-headings - there

are a lot of the sub-headings.

MR. EFFORD: Can you be specific?

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, one would be road

maintenance 2.1.01, $116,000 increase -

MR. EFFORD: 2.1.01?

MR. J. BYRNE: - I had a note here.

MR. EFFORD: In road maintenance? Well, you are

going to get seasonal - seasonal work is there depending on the amount of work

that has gone from year to year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, well the next one down -

MR. EFFORD: Yes, but you look at the salaries.

I do not see the increase that you are talking about there. The revised `92-93

was $6,916,000 and then in `93-94 there was just a shade over $7 million.

MR. J. BYRNE: $7 million, yes.

MR. EFFORD: So, there is a very small increase,

$100,000.

MR. J. BYRNE: $116,000.

MR. EFFORD: Yes but that is just step

progressions here.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, I was just wondering about

that.

I have some specific questions now, on page 58,

Policy Development and Planning, 1.2.03,

section 10, Grants and Subsidies, we

budgeted $149,000 in `92-93, spent $148,900 and this year you have $25,400

budgeted, I am just wondering who will be affected by these cuts?

MR. EFFORD: Oh, that is a question I had better

get advice on.

MR. WHITE: That was a grant that the Province

made each year to the Atlantic Provinces Transportation Commission and this year

the government decided that they would not participate in the Atlantic Provinces

Transportation Commission anymore. So, that is where that grant -

MR. J. BYRNE: Were there any layoffs or

anything like that or, is that just to an outside group?

MR. WHITE: It is an organization centred in I

think Halifax, and has representatives from Newfoundland from the private sector

on it as well as the other Atlantic Provinces, and each of the four Atlantic

Province governments, contributed to the operation of the Atlantic Provinces

Transportation Commission. We have now ceased so we are having negotiations with

them as to see how can they continue to operate, to what level, without any

support from us.

MR. EFFORD: You have to remember in a time of

government restraints and cutbacks those decisions have to be made and naturally

that would be one of the first decisions.

MR. J. BYRNE: I am not criticizing the move; I

am here just to ask questions for my own point of clarification to understand

what is actually going on within the department.

On page 59, under Support Services, 2.1.02,

section

06, Purchase Services. You spent $541,400 last year and you have $439,000

budgeted for this year, what type of services are we talking about there?

MS. COLE: The Purchased Services there provide

for electrical costs mainly for the few buildings that were still under the

Department of Transportation side of the department. The Public Works side were

paying most of the electrical bills and the projected revise went up

considerably but in line with the operating reductions that we made, those

divisions were told that they still had the same amount of fundings so they have

to live within that level of funding.

MR. J. BYRNE: Hopefully.

MS. COLE: Yes, hopefully, try to take some

moves to live within it.

MR. J. BYRNE: On page 60, 2.1.04, Maintenance

and Repairs, 01, salaries again. Here we have $318,700 cut and I am just curious

as to whether there will be any employees cut because of this cut?

MR. EFFORD: Which number?

MR. J. BYRNE: 2.1.04, 01.

MR. WHITE: That reflects a decrease in the

salaries that we will have for Summer maintenance on our highway system this

Summer.

MR. J. BYRNE: Less people hired on for Summer -

MR. WHITE: Seasonal work, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: - and under that same section,

Grants and Subsidies, $373,900 which was not budgeted before. Now, what would

that be for?

MR. WHITE: When the boundaries of St. John's

were expanded to take in the Goulds and those areas, the government agreed that

this department would maintain the roads for a five-year period. We have

negotiated a buy out with the city, and that is what that represents, a portion

of the buy out so they will take the roads over earlier than was originally

anticipated, and most of that is the road down through the Goulds, the Goulds

Highway.

MR. EFFORD: Yes, that is what we were talking

about earlier too, in answer to another question about municipalities, the

mix-up where municipalities are doing some roads and the Department of Works,

Services and Transportation others, so wherever there is a possibility they are

turned over to the municipalities and an agreement made and that is going to

take place quite often hopefully in the very near future to a lot of

municipalities. Transportation will not be responsible for those roads in the

future after that agreement is fulfilled.

MR. J. BYRNE: So that leads me to a question

now: is it the plan of the government and Works, Services and Transportation in

particular, to turn over the trunk roads between, as an example, going from St.

John's to Pouch Cove, the main drag going through, is that a plan that Torbay

would be responsible for a section, Flatrock for a

section and Pouch Cove?

MR. WHITE: No. Let me give you an example.

There is a bypass planned for Torbay with which you are probably familiar; I

would hope, if and when that is built that we would maintain the bypass and the

town would take over the existing road which is basically local traffic then.

That's the kind of example I'd use. But the main road through from St. John's to

Pouch Cove, no, that would remain as a department road.

MR. J. BYRNE: At this point in time.

MR. WHITE: Well, whichever one it is, but we

would only want to maintain one.

MR. J. BYRNE: One. Very good. On page 60, same

page, Snow and Ice Control, 2.1.05.04. You have $8,839,000 budgeted and last

year you spent $10,088,000. That's $1.25 million cut. I'm wondering, are you

trying to take a chance on the weather? Like this year we had a fairly good

winter.

MR. WHITE: I'm glad I have these people to help

me with all that stuff. No. The amounts are the same as last year. It's just

that government has changed the accounting business. Where the departments one

time used to pay RST, now we don't pay the RST any more. That basically is the

difference. RST and GST and stuff. The quantities are about the same.

MR. J. BYRNE: Very good. On page 61, 2.2.02.06,

Technical Support Services, Purchased Services. Like you say, you had to budget

$250,000 for 1992-1993. You spent $168,400. Now you have $250,000 budgeted

again. I'm curious as to what the services are, and if the government is in the

restraint that it says it's in, why would you budget $80,000 more than you

actually spent last year?

MR. EFFORD: What was the last part of the

question?

MR. J. BYRNE: Why would you budget $80,000 more

this year than you actually spent last year?

MS. COLE: That figure is for insurance premium

on the building insurance. The rates were much lower last year than we had

projected, but we have been advised by the insurance division of Treasury Board

that extremely high increases are expected in the premiums again this year. So

we were told to leave the same amount in.

MR. J. BYRNE: Very good. Page 63. Good answers,

I must say, your spot on. Page 63, 2.3.03, at the bottom of the page. Vehicle

Fleet Management for insurance premiums. I was always under the impression -

now, I don't know why I was under this impression - that government didn't carry

insurance on their vehicles. If they had an accident they would foot the bill

for it themselves, type of thing. But here you have, under 06, $630,400

budgeted, and you only had $490,000 last year. Is that for insurances?

MR. EFFORD: Yes. Until about four or five years

ago -

AN HON. MEMBER: A bit longer than that.

MR. EFFORD: - probably, government does now

purchase insurance for all their vehicles.

MR. J. BYRNE: So that's what that's for. I

thought it might be but I wasn't sure.

Page 64. Total there under Heavy Equipment,

Equipment Maintenance. You actually have a $2 million cut in that, but I was

really surprised to see that there was that much money required for equipment

maintenance. I imagine that's for vehicle repairs and that type of thing.

MR. EFFORD: I don't think that's a lot of money

for the amount of equipment that this department is responsible for. As you can

well imagine yourself, the high cost of purchasing and maintaining equipment

today is astronomical. That is not an unreasonable figure.

MR. J. BYRNE: I'm not saying it's unreasonable.

I was just kind of surprised that we would be spending that kind of money for

maintenance. Something I never thought about before, probably most people don't,

you know?

MR. EFFORD: It's like the only one other group

of people who would be surprised like yourself would be Treasury Board. But for

the department, I think they're doing an excellent job in keeping the cost down.

MR. J. BYRNE: I'm not questioning that.

MR. WHITE: Lew White again. That number as you

notice is down this year from last year. We've implemented these preventative

maintenance programs in recent years on our equipment and we've found that we've

been able to reduce our costs. I know they're significant but they're down as

you notice from previous years.

MR. J. BYRNE: But preventive maintenance has a

saving of almost 10 per cent in one year?

MR. WHITE: Yes.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Noel.

MR. NOEL: Has that move from self insurance to

purchased insurance proved to be a wise choice? Have you done a study of it? Why

was it done? Was it done because you thought purchased insurance would prove to

be cheaper?

MR. WHITE: It was basically a decision by

Treasury Board as much as by transportation, but we found that without using

adjusters and all this type of stuff it took a tremendous amount of internal

time of staff of the department to deal with all these claims we had against us,

at least in our department, in the Winter maintenance. We are not responsible

for all the government vehicles. Each department has their own but in our own

case we have found it beneficial. Now, I cannot tell you we have done a lot of

studies on it but the work we have done, and we watch it each year, we found

that it is a benefit to go the way we are now by insuring than it was by self

insurance before.

MR. NOEL: What about buildings? What is the

policy for buildings?

MR. WHITE: They are all insured as well. There

is a general government insurance policy for buildings, schools, and hospitals,

just one big one, and we have another one for our ferry vessels which is in here

as well.

MR. NOEL: Was there some question last year

about that Harvey Road building being partly insured and partly not insured?

MR. WHITE: That was fully insured.

MR. NOEL: Thanks.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Fitzgerald.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Minister, I remember

hearing a figure one time about putting water and sewer into a single home in

Newfoundland compared to Ontario. I think at that time the minister of the day

gave me a figure where it cost something like $28,000 to service one home in

Newfoundland with water and sewer compared to $2400 in the province of Ontario.

I am wondering if there is any such thing as a rule of thumb of expense of what

we can expect to pay for the cost per kilometre of road here in Newfoundland

compared to other provinces? Have we ever done a study such as that? It would be

interesting to know.

MR. WHITE: No, we have not in that unlike the

water and sewer it depends on what standard you are building them to, what

degree of upgrading, and what thickness of asphalt you are putting in,

whereas

water and sewer is pretty simplistic, there is just the pipes and go through. We

have never done any comparisons there but in talking to our counterparts in Nova

Scotia and New Brunswick our money does not go near as far as theirs does

because we have so much rock in this Province.

MR. EFFORD: That is the answer I was going to

give. With the terrain that we have in this Province and with the bog lands we

have going across. To just take an example which is most familiar to all of us,

the four-laning of the Trans-Canada between St. John's, Roaches Line and

Whitbourne. To look at the amount of construction, the blasting, the digging of

the bog and filling in, you could not compared it to a province like Quebec

where for hundreds and hundreds of kilometres it is completely level road, you

just go with the fill. The problem is where you compare it to another province

the fact is we have this terrain and you have to deal with it. The thing, as you

mentioned, with the water and sewerage cost is similar, the terrain, but also

the widely scattered population compared to a city or a large urban area. In

rural Newfoundland it is very, very costly because of that reason.

MR. FITZGERALD: It seems to me that over the

past couple of years governments have made many cutbacks and I think you

yourself, Mr. Minister, and probably this government - I do not know if it was

done in the former administration or not, but I know that all of a sudden

government vehicles were taken away from a lot of people. There seems to me to

be still a lot of government vehicles within the Department of Transportation. I

am not talking about loaders, trucks and backhoes, I am talking about

automobiles and private cars. You see them parked by the doors and see

individuals driving home in them in the nighttime. It must cost government a

tremendous amount of money to upkeep these automobiles and provide

transportation for people. Do we need to do that kind of a thing today in order

to maintain good employees?

MR. EFFORD: You don't do it to maintain good

employees, you do it because the need is there. You have a choice. Number one,

you can pay people to use their own vehicles, and you can add in the cost of the

insurance, the cost of maintaining a car on the road, the cost of paying a

person per kilometre to do that on the road, compared to the cost of keeping

your own vehicles or renting vehicles.

No matter how you look at it it's going to be a

high cost. It's not done for the convenience of individuals, it's done for the

necessity to get departmental or governmental work done. This department and

this government are very conscientious of the amount of cost to the taxpayers

about the number of vehicles that people use. Although there are some instances

probably, like you may have said, there are very strict controls put on that.

Most of the people - again I won't say all, as I did in answering a question of

Mr. Crane's about inspectors - are very responsible individuals. I would suggest

if you know of an individual or individual cases of somebody abusing government

property then you should, as an MHA, notify that particular department.

Each department is responsible for its own vehicle

operation. We're not responsible for all vehicles. Forestry would be responsible

for their own, Fisheries and so on. Anybody abusing that system would be the

same way as an MHA or any other employee of government abusing their particular

whatever, expense accounts or whatever. It's not right and it should be

reported. But when you're operating a large fleet like the Department of Works,

Services and Transportation is responsible for, there's always room for

something like that occasionally to happen. On the whole, I think have been,

from the information that I've gotten to date, and I've asked that question

myself, that the way in which it's working is probably for government to keep

its own vehicles. It's cheaper in the long run. Would you agree with that, Mr.

White?

MR. WHITE: Yes. We've done some studies as to

where the break even is between government owning the vehicle and renting some,

paying people mileage. You're in around the 24,000, 25,000 kilometres a year. If

you're in excess of that our information shows that it's probably cheaper for

government to own the vehicle.

Just to add on to what the minister was saying

about private - or people using our vehicles. We have pretty stringent rules as

to when you can take a vehicle home. Of course, there's no private use permitted

of any of them. At any time, when anybody has any complaint on that issue on an

individual, we'll certainly address it. You will find in the department that

there are more vehicles, say, taken home in the Wintertime than in the Summer,

in that our foremen and that that we have are responsible twenty-fours a day,

seven days a week. So we let them take the machines home in the Wintertime. In

the Summertime, no, they don't need to do that. This business about taking

vehicles home is more pronounced in the Wintertime for operations reasons than

at any other time in the year, at least in our shop.

MR. EFFORD: You also have to remember too that,

as I said earlier, we're only responsible for Works, Services and

Transportation. Then you have to look at other government vehicles. You have

inspectors on the road, for argument's sake, in Finance, or in Environment and

Lands, or in other departments, who would do a lot of travelling. They may have

their vehicle at their house because they may be leaving the next morning at

5:00 a.m., 6:00 a.m. and going on, or whatever time, to areas.

So it's not all as it seems up front. Like I said

earlier, if there is a concern or somebody should see somebody doing that,

especially using a vehicle - like somebody said to me a while ago: I saw this

person up in the country on the weekend. Now, they may have been there on

legitimate government business. But if there's a concern, then report it to the

proper authorities.

MR. FITZGERALD: It's not uncommon, Mr.

Minister, to see a private automobile parked in people's driveways. My question,

I suppose, goes back to every job that I've had that I've always been expected

to get to and from work at my own expense. I'm wondering why other people,

because they work for government, should be treated any differently, in a time

of restraint that we're going through now.

MR. EFFORD: Yes, but it's not fair to say -

MR. FITZGERALD: I'm not talking about pickup

trucks. I'm talking about private cars.

MR. EFFORD: It's not fair to say that

government are paying people, or people are using government vehicles to get to

and from work. It's only when it's the job that that individual person is doing

requires them to have that vehicle to do a lot of travelling and as I used the

example in Finance, I see a lot of people on the road and I too, question why

would they have the vehicle? When I checked into it, I found that it was very

legitimate and that is the reason. It is certainly not the intention of paying

people to go to and from work but I know, and I understand what you are saying,

in the times constraint and in the times when everybody has to bite and take a

little less and take a little less and I think if you look over the last several

years and especially in the last couple of years, there is more and more

restraint being put on individuals doing that. It is not a perfect situation but

it has certainly been improved quite substantially.

MR. FITZGERALD: Mr. Minister, in the beginning

we talked about how big the Department of Works, Services and Transportation was

and I think you recited over 2,000 employees at that time. The Cape Bonavista

Lighthouse I understand is owned by the Department of Works, Services and

Transportation, and in that building is housed a small area where the Bonavista

Rural Development Association operated a small craft shop that employed five or

six people and provisions I think, to probably hire on two or three extra this

year, and when I say people, I am talking about students where we have an excess

of 40 per cent - I suppose unemployment for students today is in excess of 40

per cent, not many opportunities -

Many of those students look forward to jobs and

look forward to making some money so that they can go back to post-secondary

institutions and pay tuition fees and for some strange reason, because somebody

complained - knowing ahead the story - the association in that little craft shop

which sold local craft produced in the area, the sales went up over 80 per cent

compared to what it was the year before when they were located in another area,

was a situation where, many people from all over Canada and in many cases the

United States, travelled down to Bonavista because a trip to Newfoundland

without going to Bonavista is almost the same as going to Florida and not going

to see Disney World.

Bonavista is an unique part of Newfoundland and for

some reason, and I understand it was not a justifiable reason, it was because

somebody, some local businessman in the town complained that the craft shop was

in competition with his business, and the giant Department of Works, Services

and Transportation asked those people to vacate the premises without giving them

an alternative site to set up their little shop and employ students, and I

personally feel that is very, very unfair and an unjust decision that was made

with your department, prior to your being the minister.

MR. EFFORD: It is a little bit unfair for you

to accuse the giant Department of Works, Services and Transportation for making

that decision, but let me first talk about competition or private business.

The one thing that governments, provincially and

federally, should not be involved with, is supporting businesses in any sector

of the community, of the area, to compete with private business; we should never

be involved in that. I have been always a strong advocate of that and as an

example, in my own area where an individual wanted to get UI benefits for

fifty-two weeks, as a new program the federal government has in supplementing

this starting up a new business and there was an identical, same business just a

short distance away, and as an MHA - it was one of my constituents - I said no.

How can you expect the federal government and the

taxpayers of this Province to support you and supplement your income to take

business away from another private entrepreneur, but in the case of the

situation in Bonavista, individual departments sponsor different groups and pay

the operational or the rental fees for different groups. In that particular

case, it was the Department of Tourism and Culture who withdrew their

sponsorship for that particular craft store, so when that decision was made we

had absolutely no other choice but only to inform the group of the decision that

was made; and I guess I would think on the line of thinking, a thought that I

had expressed to you that would be one of the reasons why that decision would be

made.

I understand that everybody likes to get involved

in business and the crafts and the communities groups, but you have to remember

that private enterprise comes first and that is the way government should be

leaning towards because if we had to support every individual group and

organization that comes for money in the government, half the private businesses

out there would be out of business because of government's interference.

MR. FITZGERALD: I am wondering if the decision

was made because one person complained. I do not want to dwell too much on this

here tonight but I know that it was the general consensus in the town and by

town leaders, that it was a wrong decision.

MR. EFFORD: How can you say it was a wrong

decision? If you have Mr. Smith right here with his own private business who is

paying employees and depending on the people of the community to support his

business and there is another business right here, Mrs. Jones who has a business

on the go and I am going to feed her all the free money - that is putting Mr.

Smith at a disadvantage. That is not a very wise decision.

I would say the wrong decision was made in the

beginning, in supporting an organization that was going to be detrimental to the

survival of a private business. I do not know if one person complained but I

would say if that decision was made on that basis, I would not hesitate in

supporting it. I do not know if that was the reason it was withdrawn, I suspect

it was but you, yourself, you should not go against private business in any

community, in any area. I do not know the individuals that you are talking about

but I suspect that is the reason why it was made.

MR. FITZGERALD: I fully agree with what you are

saying. Maybe I should give you some supporting evidence to why I think it is

the wrong decision at a later time.

MR. EFFORD: The sponsoring department for that

particular craft shop was the Department of Tourism and Culture. I will listen

and you know, expect anytime that you want to talk to me, I will certainly talk

to the minister or both of us together. Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister. Mr.

Matthews.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Minister, I will have to say, from my

observation over the past four or five years, that the department should be

commended to the extent that the roads work, particularly the Trans-Canada

Highway work that has been done, seems to be of a significantly higher standard,

especially the aesthetic part of it, the banks on the sides of the roads, the

medians and that sort of thing. Somebody has raised the standards and I think

whoever is responsible for it, and I assume your department is somewhat

responsible for it, I think they should be commended to the extent that they

were responsible for the better product that we are getting, at least it looks

better. I will give you two weeks credit, that is for the last bit of grass that

grew John out on the Trans-Canada, beyond that I guess your officials will have

to share it amongst themselves.

There is one thing that I have always been

interested in finding out about driving in Newfoundland and probably you fellows

can enlighten me as to whether or not I have a correct observation or whether I

am stunned. I have driven in, as all of you have I am sure - in Europe I have

driven - I go from here to Florida in the car and I will not miss a turn because

signage is adequate and easy to get me to where I am going but you know I went

out to Salmonier Line on Labour Day weekend, you know I only had to go to

Avondale, turn around and come back because I missed the turn off. I could not

see enough signs to get me up on the Salmonier Line -

MR. CRANE: Now that is what you call stunned.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: - that might be but I have

always felt that our road signage has not been up to snuff, as compared to, what

I would call North American given standards. Is that, assuming I am correct in

saying that our signage is not what it should be, is it a comment or commentary

on us who design the signs by virtue of our thinking that we do not need

directions and tourist do not need directions or is it that we do not put enough

money into it just because we do not have enough money to put into it? But I

have always felt our road signs have not been as good as other parts of Canada

and North America. What are your observations?

MR. EFFORD: Okay, first of all -

MR. L. MATTHEWS: Do you ever get lost John?

MR. EFFORD: No, I do not say I have gotten lost

but I get lost mostly in St. John's.

No seriously, first of all let me say thank you for

your kind words towards the department. You are quite right, the level of

standards for highways now have greatly improved the environment, and the

landscaping. The department is to be congratulated for that, I cannot take any

credit, as much as I would love to, for the short weeks I've been there.

Hopefully next year this time I'll be able to take a bow.

Anyhow, the signage: Government is quite concerned

about that. There's been a lot of controversy and a lot of rumblings within the

departments about the highway signage. Government put a committee in place - two

years ago?

MR. WHITE: That's more for the commercial

signage.

MR. EFFORD: That's more for commercial signage.

Because that's one of the things, the complaints from tourists when they drive

along the highway, is to where they can go for different services. But there is

a standard. Lew, probably you can take over on the national highway standard of

signs.

MR. WHITE: Yes, there is a national standard,

as the minister says, of signs that everybody follows. We follow those

standards, but generally our signs are smaller than are used in other provinces,

okay? Plus, I think if you drive much up through the mainland you'll notice

that, especially in the nighttime, most of the interchanges are all lit and

things. I'm thinking now about up through Moncton and Truro and all those

places. We don't have the money to go with lights and our signs are small. It's

dollars and cents. We can make them.

As you know, like on the mainland, if you were

coming into St. John's you'd have these overhead signs over the highway, lit, on

the big aluminium posts and stuff. We'd like to do that but these things aren't

cost-shared under any of our agreements. Signs we have to pay for ourselves.

Again a choice has to be made. If you go do that with signs then there's that

much less pavement we get somewhere or whatever. It's a juggling act with money.

MR. EFFORD: Probably in my first year as

minister I might have an opportunity to improve on that. Because I do agree too

that the need for better observation of the signs on the highways is certainly

needed. It's like I mentioned earlier about the services. It's pretty difficult

if you're new to the Province, and especially in the tourism season. There is a

set of regulations being put before government right now to get the new signage

in place, because of the advantages to the tourism business.

I was quite surprised the other day when the

Minister of Tourism told me that last year the volume of people who came into

this Province was astronomical. Something like the value of $440 million, and

that was an increase over the previous year. We've got to recognize the need to

improve all the services on our highways.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: I would say the other side to

it, Mr. Minister, is that some of them are still here trying to find their way

out. I suppose to that extent it's good. We have them here, perhaps they can't

go home.

MR. EFFORD: If one of our local residents from

the great City of St. John's gets lost we'd better be very aware of people

coming into the Province for the first time.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. L. MATTHEWS: I have no more questions, Mr.

Chairman, other than the overall observation that your budget seems to be down

from last year, depending on whether you look at the budgeted or the revised

figures, anywhere between 5 to 15 per cent. Obviously you fellows are doing your

bit to bite the bullet and -

MR. EFFORD: Doing our share.

MR. L. MATTHEWS: - I hope you can do an

equivalent job as last year with less money. If you are, Mr. Minister, you'll be

minister for life probably of this outfit. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

MR. EFFORD: Thank you.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Byrne.

MR. EFFORD: One day at a time, John. I learned

that.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll

continue on with my questions. On page 66, 3.1.04.03, Transportation and

Communications. That's a $45,000 increase from what you actually spent last

year. Why would it be necessary to budget $45,000 more than was spent last year?

MR. EFFORD: If you look at the budget of

1992-1993 there was -

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, I know.

MR. EFFORD: - $191,000 budgeted but only

$138,300 spent. I'd better go back to my financial expert.

MS. COLE: I'd like to explain that. The reason

the revised is down is sometimes the employees in that

section will do travel

related to capital projects. When that happens we recharge the costs to the

capital projects. There may have been just as much spent on travel in that area,

but any time that they did it on capital we recharged it out.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. On page 67, on the top of

the page again, 3.2.03.06. You have $15,594,000 versus $13,200,000 that was

spent last year, and $10,149,000 budgeted. That's a 33 per cent increase I

believe over what was actually - or maybe a 50 per cent, yes - budgeted for last

year. Do you have some kind of explanation for that?

MS. COLE: The total road program is still the

same, it's just that it's allocated differently. If you look down below at Road

and Bridge Rehabilitation the actual budget for that is down. It's just that the

money has been re-allocated to the highest priority areas.

MR. EFFORD: Excuse me, (inaudible), that would

be less bridge construction and more road construction?

MS. COLE: Yes.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, but it's more for purchased

services versus the (inaudible).

MR. EFFORD: (Inaudible) what it is, if you look

at the whole total -

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, I know that.

MR. EFFORD: - it would be less bridge

construction and more money spent on road construction. So it is a changing of

the monies from one area to the other, but in the total it comes out the same.

MS COLE: The bulk of the road construction is

done through contracting out and that is why Purchased Services would be up.

MR. J. BYRNE: On Page 69, 3.2.08 Subsection 7,

Property, Furnishings and Equipment, $150,000 was budgeted for last year,

$50,000 spent and $150,000 budgeted for this year. Is that really necessary?

MS. COLE: I do not know in terms of the actual

details of why the revise was down. That again is federal agreement money and we

allocate it based on what our best estimate will be. We do spend all the money.

As you will notice the total revised is up but we may spend it in different

areas or in different ways.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible)

MS. COLE: No.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is just the point I am

making with some of those questions, the fact that there is a restraint program

on and you were spending less the previous year.

MR. EFFORD: Let us not jump and think that we

are going to turn back federal money because there is a restraint on. This is

federal money and the federal money is given to the Province to spend. There are

allocations made out, as you can see, in all the areas and you budget that

amount for that particular area. If this were from the provincial taxpayers it

would be a different situation but the federal government gives you this 100 per

cent funding for road maintenance and road construction. Now, if you budget

$150,000 and you only spend $50,000 then there may be some reason which I can

get checked into, but you allow the same amount for the next year. It is

allocations of different fundings.

MR. J. BYRNE: But instead of the $150,000 this

year if you budgeted $50,000, the same as you spent last year, that money could

be allocated somewhere else.

MR. EFFORD: There is no doubt about it. There

has to be a reasonable explanation and I am sure we can get that.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay.

Under the next

section 3.2.09, Special Highway

Initiatives. Is this the

section that the Outer Ring Road would come under for

funding if you were to go ahead with it?

MR. EFFORD: Which?

MR. J. BYRNE: Special Highway Initiatives,

3.2.09.

MR. EFFORD: No.

MR. J. BYRNE: While I am on the Outer Ring

Road, and there is no point going into that one now, if it is not it, it is not

it, but I have a question on the Outer Ring Road.

MR. EFFORD: Go ahead.

MR. J. BYRNE: I made a presentation to the

commissioner back in March, I believe it was, on the Outer Ring Road and if the

chairman comes back and recommends that we should go ahead with the Outer Ring

Road, when can we expect to see the start-up date? When is he suppose to come in

with his report, by the way?

MR. EFFORD: The report will be released in the

very, very near future. Whatever the decision or recommendation of the

commissioner to the government it will be government's decision then on the

recommendations, and when that decision becomes available it will be made

public, but that decision has not yet been taken.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, you cannot answer my

question?

MR. EFFORD: You can ask me any question you

want but what I am saying to you is that government has not yet made a decision

on the releasing of that report and until government makes a decision then I

cannot comment on it publicly.

MR. J. BYRNE: But if the recommendation is that

the Outer Ring Road should go ahead without further environmental impact

studies, or whatever the case may be, when can I expect it to start up?

MR. EFFORD: When government makes the decision

as to whether or not it is going to start up.

MR. J. BYRNE: I can answer that one but I will

not.

On Page 71, 3.3.02, Development of New Facilities,

Subsection 6, Purchased Services.

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is for the extension of

existing facilities or the construction of new buildings. We spent $17 million

last year, or $18 million, budgeted $24,500,000 and this year you have budgeted

$27,485,000. Is this actually allocated now for certain buildings? Could you

give some explanation as to where that money is actually going?

MR. EFFORD: All that money is allocated. Do you

want the list?

MR. J. BYRNE: Not here right now.

MR. EFFORD: We can provide you with a list.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. I will get the list later.

MR. EFFORD: You can be provided with the list

if you wish.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. On page 77, I am almost to

the end now, by the way. Government Operated Aircraft: When you refer to this

section, I suppose you would include the water bombers for forestry and all that

type of thing?

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Under Grants and Subsidies, we

have $2,567,000 budgeted versus,$3,038,000 spent last year on the revised. Why

would you be budgetting so much less than what was spent last year and who are

the grants and subsidies to?

MR. EFFORD: Basically, because there is less

money to spend, so on tightening up departments expenditures, one of the first

thing that you must do, you must look through all the areas and say: okay,

everybody has to bite the bullet a little bit more and we will allow that much

money this year and this is what you must spend. If something out of the

extraordinary happens, then you would go over budget but only under extreme

circumstances and -

MR. WHITE: Perhaps I can answer that for you.

The grants and subsidies are to the Grenfell Mission in Labrador for operating a

twin otter on the Coast of Labrador. We pay for it rather than Health, and the

reason that the number was higher last year than this year, is that, part way

through the year they blew an engine and we had to give them extra money last

year for that, that is why, if you notice, the revised was higher than last

year's budget; it was the replacement of an engine that they blew in mid-season.

MR. EFFORD: Yes, and you would not, because

they spent in excess of $3 million last year, you would not go out and budget

that same amount of money.

MR. J. BYRNE: I am just curious as to the

answer.

MR. EFFORD: There is the reason, extreme

circumstances.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. On page 80, under Queen's

Printer, 5.2.02, the revenues; there seems to be some substantial differences

from $800,000 down to $550,000 down to $350,000. Am I assuming that is the

revenues that the provincial government takes in through the Queen's Printer? Is

that correct?

MS. COLE: The reason the revenue is so high in

92-93 is, that was the year we did a complete reprint of the statutes. It is

only done once every twenty years and we charge for that then when we sell it,

so we will not see revenues like that again for another twenty years.

MR. J. BYRNE: I see, I see. There are two

questions left I believe. Under Realty Services on page 80, 5.2.03, subsection

07, Property, Furnishings and Equipment. You see what I am going to ask you of

course, $25,000, $1,977,100 and $25,000 for this year, I mean -

MR. WHITE: We bought Queen's College.

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?

MR. WHITE: We bought Queen's College.

Last Winter, just before the end of the fiscal

year, the government decided to buy - we had bought the other two, St. John's

College and Coughlan, a year or so before that and we bought Queen's College

this year.

MR. J. BYRNE: You obviously see how that one

would jump off the page at you. The last page, page 81, C.A. Pippy Park

Commission, 5.3.01, Grants and Subsidies, cut to what, approximately $200,000?

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Will this cost layoffs within the

C. A. Pippy Park itself?

MR. EFFORD: Will it what?

MR. J. BYRNE: Cost layoffs, with people working

with the Park?

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: How many?

MR. WHITE: There were some layoffs at the end

of the last fiscal year in the administration of the Pippy Park. The functions

were rolled in to our department and we are providing, in our administration

division now, those services which were previously done by the commission

themselves.

MR. J. BYRNE: One other question to the

minister, and I can assume the answer before I ask it but I will ask it anyway.

From the Budget, there is practically $14 million cut, how does the minister

feel this will affect the overall operations of the department?

MR. EFFORD: How will it affect the overall

operations of the department in what? How much?

MR. J. BYRNE: There is $14 million cut from the

department -

MR. EFFORD: In every sector of business and

every department of government you have to live within the amount of money that

is available. There is no doubt about it, it is going to put pressure on the

department because of the lesser amount of money but nevertheless we are living

in a time and age where we have all - the difficulty with the economy, I should

say, is that we all have to do that much extra. I feel very confident that the

department will be able to provide all the services needed - Winter or year

round, I should say, for the people of the Province. People understand the times

we are living in and people cooperate. I think with extra input from every

individual and the cooperation of the general public there will be no less

services provided either in work, service or transportation.

MR. J. BYRNE: I would like to thank the

minister and his staff for the answers.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Fitzgerald.

MR. FITZGERALD: I only have one, one quick

question and it is more for my own information.

Is there any difference in the type sand the

Department of Highways uses on the Trans-Canada than that which they use on the

trunk roads in the Province?

MR. WHITE: No but on the Trans-Canada we use

more salt than we do sand mixture. Again it is an economics thing, the highest

travelled roads where the bigger trucks and stuff are and the high speeds, we

try to use more of the salt so that we get the ice off quicker and on the lesser

travelled roads we use the mixture of sand and salt. I will guess the next thing

you might comment on, we have had a lot of complaints this past Winter

particularly about the size of some stones in the sand -

MR. FITZGERALD: Exactly, about a quarter inch

crushed stone.

MR. WHITE: - okay and we have had some

complaints about windshield damages and things like that. We are conscious of

that and we are going to try this year, in the production of our sand, to watch

it closer and to store the sand such that the loaders do not take gravel as well

as sand when we are operating next Winter. We had these complaints generally

each Winter but this past Winter it has been worst than ever, in specific areas.

MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, that is the thing that I

was concerned about. Prior to coming here I was a local insurance representative

and the amount of claims that we had come forward was unbelievable. It almost

got to the point that you felt like calling everybody after you had a snow storm

or after you had a real wet night and it froze, to tell everybody to stay off

the road because you would get people coming back to you wanting paint jobs and

windshields broken. If you drove down the road and you met one of those salt

trucks or sand trucks, the pebbles were about the size of your - just big enough

to be picked up from a tire and hurled at you. It was a terrible problem in the

area where we live.

MR. EFFORD: And Apple Auto Glass was jumping

with delight.

MR. J. BYRNE: Creating business.

MR. FITZGERALD: But it was a problem -

MR. EFFORD: Oh, there was, yes.

MR. FITZGERALD: - we had complaints from other

areas as well. You must have been if you were using the same type of sand.

MR. WHITE: Worse in some areas than others. It

was not only your area but there were other ones and as I said, this Winter or

this past Winter was worst I think than any I can remember.

AN HON. MEMBER: There will be no problem with

salt and sand in St. John's this Winter.

MR. WHITE: No, you did not did you?

MR. FITZGERALD: There was none. I do not have

any more questions, Mr. Chairman.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, it is normal practice that

we break for a ten minute break now or do you want to carry on?

MR. EFFORD: We can pass the sub-heads now.

Carry on, pass the sub-heads now. The hockey game is on at 9:00 p.m.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Carry on? Mr. Careen.

MR. CAREEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

If somebody else has asked any of these questions

that I am going to ask, say so and I will skip over to something else, alright?

MR. EFFORD: Yes.

MR. CAREEN: 4.1.02, Driver Examination and

Vehicle Inspection, Purchased Services, what would that be?

MR. EFFORD: 4.1.02, the $30,000?

MR. CAREEN: Yes. I am just curious as to what

would you purchase there?

MR. WHITE: That is the expenditures for

repairing the weigh scales that we have on the highways. The weigh scales are

operated by the Motor Registration Division, so that is where the funds went.

MR. CAREEN: Just above that in 4.1.01,

Purchased Services again, $194,800, I am curious.

MS. COLE: Purchased Services there is mostly

for the advertising program for seatbelts and the point system.

MR. CAREEN: Ferry Operations, 4.3.02, again

Purchased Services, what is it?

MR. EFFORD: What is the number?

MR. CAREEN: 4.3.02, is that the boats -

MR. O'REILLY: That covers the refits on our

vessels, our insurance costs and other related costs, so it is actually the

contract type work we get done on the vessels.

MR. CAREEN: Thank you, and I do not know if you

explained it or not, but the Atlantic Provinces Transportation Commission? That

was explained, was it.

MR. EFFORD: That was explained, yes.

MR. CAREEN: I must find out more from one of

the other members what that was. One last point, the other day it was brought up

here in the House about the elevators -

MR. EFFORD: Yes?

MR. CAREEN: Now, if the Minister of Health gets

his way and the people on either side of the House go unanimous with this

smoking bill, probably they will force the likes of us to be in that good health

we can run up and down the stairs, but they were saying about looking at

changing the elevators, or in this fiscal year you would be looking at making

them a little bit better or -

MR. J. BYRNE: More cooperative.

MR. CAREEN: Which of the above?

MR. EFFORD: Well, first of all, those three

elevators were put there when this building was built, so there is no doubt

about it that the need to change the elevators is now, because when you get on

them you do not know if you are going to end on the tenth floor or down in the

basement. In fact, that is what happened to us this evening as we were coming

in, so I felt like saying that we probably should put something there to beam us

all up and down, but tenders are being called now for the work to be done on the

beginning of replacing the elevators, hopefully, within the next twelve to

fourteen months. We will do one at a time as there is extensive work to be done

because as I said, those elevators were put there first when this building was

built. Hopefully, with patience and corporation this will be done. There will be

some maintenance naturally done in the meantime to stop you from having to kick

the doors to get them to close.

MR. CAREEN: The Member for St. John's North,

touched on it earlier and that will be my final question. The Outer Ring Road,

every now and again it gets to be a sabre rattling one between environmentalists

on one side and the people who want to get it done on the other. Federal money

is supposed to be there for that, at least we are told it is there.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. CAREEN: That was answered?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. CAREEN: Good, that is easy, in nomine

patris. That is it for me.

MR. CRANE: I move that we approve headings

1.l.01 to 5.3.02, inclusive.

On motion, Department of Works, Services and

Transportation, total heads, carried.

MR. CHAIRMAN: We have to move the heads for the

Public Service Commission, Page 51, the two subheads.

MR. CRANE: I move that we approve headings

l.l.01 to 2.2.04.

On motion, total heads for the Public Service

Commission, carried.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minister, thank

you to the officials, thank you to the press, and thank you Committee.

On motion, the Committee adjourned.