• .,------~·---- -• _ .... _ -I PROVIN CE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOF1 HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 17 4th. Se.ssion 3<!-th. Gent!rol ASS(!mbly VERBAll.M REPORT THUR SDAY , MARCH 5, 1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. OLA RKE

-------·~----- The House met at 3 p.m. Mr. Speak,or in the Chal .r. RON. E. S. JONES (Hiri of Fi~H'ince) ! }1r. Speaker, I nsk the concur .t"en.:f= of. thl~ House to make a public statement, & ministerial statement on th~ Auditor Ge~~ral's Report. publicly ~Ir. Speak:~r-, it i.s \>:ith regr.~t ~hc.t I find it necessa:-:.:y to r~ply

-------- .. - Mr. Speaker, it is my feeling that I would not be making this statement today and that there would have been no public discussion_in the House of _Asseml:ily on 5th and 6th May last year, when the House met in Committee of the Whole to consider the Auditor General's report, if the Aud~tor General had complied wit~ the reasonable and normal reque.st made- of him by· the Comptroller of Finance, that he (the Comptroller) be allowed to see a draft of the Auditor General's report before it is tabled in the House. Mr.

Speaker, it is unprecedented for an auditor to include in his report qualifications relating to his audit \Vithout first discussing the proposed qualifications with management - in this case, the Comptroller of Finance. Apart f:rom common courtesy, it is obviously a matter of· good sense to do this as no auditor would want to make any remarks which are inaccurate, incomplete or which might be capable of misinterpretation. Mr. Speaker, if Honourable Members would bear with me, I would . now like to go through the .Auditor General's report on the accounts of the and to comment on his remarks.

Paragrauhs l, 2 and 3 require no comment. Paragraph 4 - the Auditor Ger!er-al points out that he is faced by an unrealistic requirem.ent in the Revenue and AL1dit .A.ct,

Section 59(3).

Section 59(3) states "Each of these <l;ccounts shall be examined under the direction of the Auditor General who shall ce1·tify that the account has been examined under his direction and is cor-rect". Mr.

Speaker, the point being made by the Auditor General is quite obvious and quite simple. · The word "corr'"ct'' means one thing and one thing only - it is not a word in which there is any "gray" area, Either something is correct or it is not, It is well established practice that no auditor checks lOOo/o of the entries and transactions in the course of an audit; he relies instead on an examination of the systems and procedures, or internal controls and he tests the effectiveness of these by examining a limited nurnber of transactions, in depth.

At the conclusion of his examination, no auditor will be prepared to certify financial statements as being "correct". He will, instead, normally be prepared to certify that they show a "true and fair view". 2j~'J

. . . ~-- .. ·-.::.- . ~- ·~ .. - --- .~..._ ____ '-"~--- t; -=~ ....... ,__ ... ___ ·-'· -- ' on the R.C.M,P. service rental contract for the period 1st. October, 1968 to 31st. March, 1969, reflects the normal situation, as payments are. always made at six-monthly- intervals. Paragraphs 28 and 29 refer to the valuation of investments shown on

Schedule 2. The practice of the Province over the years, has been to show all a.ssete at cost and items are only written-off after all efforts to recover the full amount have failed. The Balance Sheet of the Province has never purported to be a balance sheet, in the commercial·sense of the wC:rd. The Comptroller and his officials, in consultation with the Auditor General, have been discussing changes in the format of the Public Ac~ounts of the Province and have undertaken a good deal of work in this connection. In fact, reference to th~s is made by .the Auditor Gene!"al in paragraph 67 of his report.

It is the Comptroller's view, and I support it, that piece- meal changes in the format of the Public Accounts should not be made and that any major changes in the format should be delayed until a decision has been taken regarding the overall method of presentatio:1 to be adopted. In the meanwhile, the accounts have been prepared on a basis consistent with previous years, except where otherwise stated. I feel, however, that the Auditor General n1ay have inadvertently suggested that all the investments, listed on

Schedule 2, totalling $22,273,678, are of doubtful value, by the use of the example of Newfoundland Asbestos Limited in paragraph 29 of his report. In fact, the only investments in that list which are worthless, are Ne·wfoundland Asbestos Limited and Placentia Bridge Corporation Lim..ited, for a total of $78,000. The remaining investments are not presently expected to result in any lo"ses to the Province. Paragraph~ rBf<·n to thr. .~.mount 0i" $1,467,980 representing other accounts r<:ccival:-,].;, shv'.' ":1 on

Schedule 3. My earlier remarks regarding the valuation of a5se!o; relates to this item several of the amounts making up this figure may ultimately have to be written-off but, in the meanwhile, efforts to collc:ct arc: being rn.ad· .

~- ~~-- · - ~ ·---- ·-. ---· _ ___ ___ _ __ :._ ___ ~ •• :_____ _ -· ...-:,.o ••• :.;::..,.,.~ ... _~ •• ~- .. ~- legislation will shortly be introduced which will clarify the situation .. fo.llowing the _enactment of this legislation amounts which are " legally due will be collecte·d.

Paragraph 32 of the Auditor General's report refen; to the fact the.t no .valuation has been made of loans, advances and other asseto totalling $123,038,000, This matter is, once again, a question of reporting practice and in the event that it is decided to make changes in the format of the Public Accounts then, possibly, it may be decided to show the items at their realizable value.

Meanwhile they are shown at coet, less amounts written-off, which is consistent with previous years. ·Paragraph 33 refers to an improvement in the method!l of recording inventories for. which I would like to express my thanks to the Auditor GeneraL Paragraphs 34 and 35 refer to the Province 1 8 practice of capitalizing all n~ed assets and L"-~;:-aordina:ry expenses. This, too, is .o. practice which may change, if it is decided to change the format of the Public Accounts.

Many provinces include fixed assets in their balance 6heets at a nominal value of $1, so it is apparent there is a good deal of difference of opinion regarding t~e trealment of these assets in government balance eheets. Paragraph 36 refers to the qu.estion of bank reconciliation~;, which is again referred to in paragraph 66 of the Auditor General's report. I will deal with this item in my comments on paragraph 66, Paragraph 37 makes reference to the value of welfare orders issued and outstanding at 31st. March, 1969, of $924, 611.

This is a repeat of information which is given in the Public Accoun .ts on page 119. Welfare orders paid in 1968/69 total $13, iS63, 466, so there is nothing unusual about an amount of $924, 611 being outstand i ng at the year end, representing the value of approximately one month's welfare orders. Paragraoh 38 refers to payments which have been made in respect of bank loans or debentures, under government guarantee, since the close

and in future the 1:'.vo amounts wilJ be shown · s;parately. Paragraph 47 (iii) refers to a grant of $10 1 000 which was made to the Wabana Recreational Commission. The position here is that Cabinet, in November 1967, ordered that a grant of $10, 000 be made to the Wabana Recreational Commission and stated that the grant was to be made on or before the 31st March, 1968, from the proceeds of the Bale of the Dosco as~ets. The Directive further stated that the Bank of Nova Scotia, Bell Island, was to be advise:! of the Cabinet decision.

On the basis of the Directive, the Wabana Recreational CommiiS !lion obtained a temporary loan from the Bank of Nova Scotia, pending receipt of the funds from the government. A difficulty arose, however, in that to have charged·the $10,000 against the proceeds of the Bell Island a!lsets would have been to make an illegal rev"nue refund and accordingly, it was decided that the only appropriate subhead against which this charge could be made was the Department of Finance- General Contingencies Account.

The repayment of the loan to the Bank of Nova Scotia was not, however, made until June 1968 and in my opinion the only criticism which can be levelled at the Department of Finance is that they should have obtained an amending Cabinet Directive, changing the date of 31st March, 1968 to 30th June, 1968. In this caee the· payment of the $10,000 was in accordance with Cabinet's expressed wishea and had it been made before 3l.5t l',&arch, 1968, the only question would have been the account to which the expenditure should have been charged.

In not seeking to have an ame:1ding Cabinet Directive issued, altering the date of 31st March, 1968 to 30th June, 1968, the Department of Finance was, strictly speaking, . . . acting without authority. In thi5 instance, however, it is quite obvious t~at the .desire of Cabinet to make the grant had been stated and there can be no sugge~tion, therefore, that any 1oBs of public funds resulted from the action of the Department of Finance in implementing Cabinet's decision.

- 10 - Paragraph 50 (iii). The Auditor General· is merely providing additional ·information- both items referred to are correct charges to this subhead, Para~raph 50 (iv) refers to an irregular charge of $40, 837. I regard this statement of the Auditor General as being very misleading as it could SLiggest that a loss of Government funds has resulted. Nothing of the sort has happened, As Honourable Members know, the Revenue and Audit Act permits payments to be made in respect of obligations incurred during a particular fiscal year and for a period of 30 days after the close of the year.

Any furds not utilized then lapse and !lave to be re-voted in the Estimates for the following year.

In this particular case t:,e Department of Mines, Agriculture and Resources had entered into a contract for the construction of a building to be used for egg­ grading and vegetable storage, at Bishops' Falls, At the year- end, the work was certified value of work done and materials provided of $107,392, The contract was for a total of $135, 000, With approximately $50, 000 still to be paid on the contract, when it was completed, the Departme:-~t of Mines, Agriculture and Resources was faced with the problem of a lapsed balance in 1968/69 and no fLmds available in 1969/70 to pay for the completion of the coCJt=act, the necessary funds having inadvertently been omitted from the 1Q69/70 Estimates.

In order to overcome the problem a cheque, in the amount in question and payable to the contractors, was dra·..vn but this chequ·e was not, however, handed to the contractors until 23rd, July, 1969 (their re.ceipt of this date is on file), by which time the value of the work done and materials provided totalled $135, 249 and payments totalled $!26, 721 (the $85, 884 paid prior to 31st March and the $40,837 referred to hy the Auditor Genen.l).

., Assistance vote. Funds are allocated by the Legislature for this purpose, 'rn instances of this type the difficulties faced by the municipality in question may have a:risen as a result of debts due to the Government or may have arisen as a result of debts due to other persons.

The other way of giving assistance, and the one advocated by the Auditor General, i.s that in re~pect of debts due to the Government, assistance should be given indirectly by way of se.eking permission to write-off all or part of the debt due by the municipality to the Government, In my opinion, either method is quite proper, Paragraph 52(iii) refers to an amount of $170, 661 which should not have been taken into account as an appropriation·in-aid. The Auditor General's statement merely repeats a note which appears on page 125 of the Publi_c Accounts. The error was discovered too late to adjust the figures .

The amount involved is, however, not significant. Paragraph 53 (

i) refers to an amount of $10,000 which was not charged to subhead 141Z, 05 during 1968/69 . This was t!!e result of an O\'ersight and the r.ecessary adjustment will be made in 1969/70. Paragraph 53(ii). The question here is merely one relating to the description of a subhead as "fixed assets". The items referred to are a correct charge against this subhead and the subhead would obviously be bette:- described by the use of some other title, The point is relatively n"linor, however, Parag:rat>h 5 3(iii .

The Auditor General 1s comment must have been based on an earlier draft of the Public Accounts as the copy which has been tabled reflects what he is in effect suggesting (see page 127 of the Public Accounts).· Paragraph 53(iv).

The point made b? the Auditor General here concerns a matter of presentation, The amount of $347, 456 has been shown as an ?.ppropriation-in-aid under subhea-1:1 1413, Fisheries Development and Assistance but, in the opinion of the Auditor General, should h?_ve been take:1 into account under Head l, Consolidated Fund Services, as a non-reve:1ue item, Either way, the funds get into the Exchequer Account, which is the main poi:"lt. Parag!"aoh 53(v). T~is is a minor matter relating to pr-ese.ntatio~ once .?_gain.

The expenditure was sho·,;.·n as a current acco•.;r,t item becau5e it was •·oted in the Estimates ior 1968/69 as a currer.t account ex;Jenditure, Th~ loans which h.:we been 971

purposes and in relation to to<:al government expenditures, which exceed•.! $30!l million , they represent less than !/50th of 1"1o of total expenditures, While it is technicallycorrect that they do represent over-expenditu1·es, the am~unts . involved are relatively imm2tcri2.l.

The second point made by the Auditor General relates to the fact that the failure to transfer expenditures has "frustrated" the objective of showing the costs of various activities, The total of the expenditures not transferred from the Department of Public Works is $232, 328 and from the Department of Supply $44,718, Together, 0 they amount to $277, },.46. The desire of the government to show all costs associated with each activity is to enable Honourable Members and other persons involved in the administration of government to see the actual costs involved in each programme or service.

To suggest that the non-transference of amounts totalling $277, 146 has frustrated this objective, w!-ten total expenditures of the goverrunent exceed $300 million, is obviously to exaggerate the situation. Paragraph 60, A writ has been issued by the Newfoundland Liquor Commission to effect recovery of the amount due will con t inue.

Paragr2.nh 61 refers to the difficulties which the Department of Finance is experiencing in enforcing the provisions of the Insurance Companies Tax Act, 1957, against a certain hospital service associat1on, The matter has beect actively pursued by the Departrnent of Finance and has culminated in a formal demand for returns to be filed, being sent to the associatiotl in question on 4th February, 1970. Paragraph 62. refers to a small mat t er regarding arrears due under a lease totalling $1,100, The facts are as seated by the Auditor General and I do not think I need corn.In.ent further on this paragraph.

Paragra.ph 63, I do not p'ropose to de2l with the Auditor General's comments here as they relate to a Crown Corporation and should be dealt '.'lith by the directors of that corporation. Paragra::>h 64 refers to the l!o t el Port ;n, x Rasqu.~s . The Auditor General has staled that accumulated profits, :o:allin!; SZl S, 6 i :> 2.t 31st !\1arch, l 06Q, as shown by t:"ie accoltnts of the hot~l, have 1\at been z-ccorded 1n t1:e acco \ t:1ts of the Cj)}

16 - and Audit Act. As! mentioned, when dealing earlier with paragraph 4 of his report, I have no arguments with him on this point. ii) The second pain~ made by the Auditor General is that he has "been unable to establish that there has been any legislative or executive directive on the basic principles for an accounting system for the Province and the form and content of the statements to be produced". While the preparation of formal instruct ions regarding (

a) basic principles for an accounting syste:rn and (

b) the form and content of the statementslis obviously desirable, the absence of such formal instructions does not, in itt!ffl£, make the accounting systems any less effective or the statements any less meaningfuL It is unfortunate that in making these two perfectly valid points, th'e Auditor General has combined them in a manner which gives the reader the impression that ~he absence of such instructions has resulted in his being unable to certify these statements as being "correct". Paragr_aphs 68, 69 'l.nd 70 do not require any specific comment f-:: x.-. -::nc. MR.

SPEAKER, I apologise for having takedso much of the House's time to review, in detail, the comments of the Auditor General. However, I feel that it has been necessary to do this and I am sure that in the light of my comments, Honourable !viembers rnust now feel confident that control of governn1ent finances, which is entrusted to the other servant of this House, the Comptroller of Finance, . is in good hands, MR. SPEAKER, before closing my remarks I should like to make a couple of observations, Firstly, the total dollar amount of receipts and payrr..ents in the fiscal year 1968/69 is approximately $700 million.

These receipts and payments ~re represented by h--1ndreds of thousands of entries, reflecting hundreds of thousands of transactions. I personally think that the fact that the Auditor General has found so little to criticise and to comment upon in his reports on the Public 'i ' .. •. -~ t .. ... :. i.=~ .t.J . ~ · ' I :r ~

March 5, 1970 Tape 220 Page 1 GC HON . J .R. S~~\LLWOOD (PRF.M1ER) : Mr. Speaker, before You~ Honor calls the next order, I should like to expres on behalf of the House a very cordial welcome, indeed, to some twenty-four students of Grade VI, in the Eugene Vaters Pentecostal Academy. They are accompanied by rtr. Clayton Rice, their teacher, and also by the Principal of the Academy, Xr. John Whalen. I have particular pleasure in welcoming these students today because I believe, I believe that I had the honour to open that school in the first place.

They are, I suppose, paying their first visit here to the Chamber and I do hope that:they will find it quite interesting to be here. Now, the statement they have just heard from the Hinister of Finance is not, I suppose, well, I am not sure but I would imagine is not the kind of thing that the students would be fascinated to hear. They would need to have been here for some days past and they would need to be much more familiar than they are in all probability with the public finances of the Province to be able to enjoy the statement of the ~inister of Finance.

However, it is a very important and necessary part of the business of the House and from this I suppose the students from Eugene Vaters Pentecostal Academy will understand that here in the House it is net always auditory and is not always speechifying and that it is not always exciting and that business is done very often, quietly and without any inflammatory oratory. I am glad to hear - I hope they enjoy it and I want to say too, while I am at it that I am so proud and happy to welcome the Leader of the Opposition back here today.

These students of the Pentecostal Academy and the Leader of tbe Opposition have come in here together. I do net know if there is any particular significance in that, but the Leader of the Opposition has been away from here for quite awhile and he is here today. The students are here today and I do not ~now if there is any connection, but now that he is here, and I have "elcomed the students, and I have ~elcomed him, I throw a stern challenge across the floor at him, not an accusation, not a charge, I am not going to condemn him or anything like that.

I am just going to challenge him to gat up and make n soeech and agree with every word I have said: that these students are bright, intelligent, good-locking, splendid young ~ewfouncllanders and I defy the Leader of the Opposition 777

March 5, 1970 Tape 220 Page 3 Ge However, Hr. Speaker, the name of the game has changed, and what has changed it has been the Trans-Canada High1~ay. That highl>ay from Port aux Basques to St. John's is, I suppose, the, ~<ell, certainly, one of the best things that has ever happened to Xewfoundlanders. It is possibly, one of the worst things that has ever happened to the politicians, because in cutting up the cake across the past twenty years, as <Ias inevitable, some districts have received a larger slice than have s0me other districts.

Now, this did not matter taenty years ago when a district in one place did not kno1.; and had no idea of what was going on in a district half a province away.

Today, the Trans-Canada Highway enables the resicents of the under­ privileged districts to get into and see what goes on the district that has been more fortunate and when in some of them, they see that some districts have been paved from end to end with some of the other goodies thrown in, and when they compare these circumstances Hith the less fortunate circum­ stances by which they had come by, they most inconsiderately blame it on their member, give him bejeffers and want to know why they cannot have an equal portion. The way they see it, after all a vote is a vote is a vote or is it not? In any case, Nr.

Speaker, right now in the Codroy Valle.y the name of the game is pave.d roads. Mr. Speaker, 1 ask leave to have this petition received at the table of the House end have it re.ferred to the department to \{hich it relates. MR. W. HODDER: ~!r. Speaker, I beg permission to present a petition on behalf of the people of Petites. Petites is a small settlement four miles to the east of Port aux Basques. Their only connection is by radio-tele.phone with Rose 3lanche.

In the town, there are t~o telephones: one at the post office and one in a telephone booth in the central of the town. ~en e call comes through for any resident, the Post >!istress has to go around a.nd notify the person concerned. Then, the person has to go to either the post office or tee telephone booth to put through the call. This is very inconvenient, especially in bad weather and unsuitable conditions .

'r' Ha~:ch 5, 1970 Tape 220 Page S CC

WHEREAS, it appea~:s that :he Govern~ent of ~ewfoundl~nd will hav~ to expend some SJ million :o acouire citlc to all :he land ~ithin the bound~ries of the p~:o.,oscd :<atiooal Park and, I<HEREAS, it is desirable :bat nembc~s of the hon. House of Assenbly and the public of ~ewfoundlar.d be fully infor.ned of the position ~ith ref erence to the establishmer.~ of the Bo:\ne Bay ~ational Park .

BE IT R850Lv"'SD that this !louse regrcu the f?.ilure of the Covernme:H: of ~le•-lfounc!land to proceed elqedi:iously '-'ith the establishcent of tre proposed Sonne gay National Park a:\d the failure of the Government co r eport iully and completely to this hon . House of Ass~mbly and to the public of ~ew!ou~dland, ~he facts wi:h respect to the proposal to esta~lish a Bonne Bay National ?ar~ ~nd directs the Government to table in thi~ hon.

House of Assenbly, all correspo:-~dence exchanged bcr:...een the Covern.':lent of ~ew:ounllland and t:h~ Govern:::ent of Ca:-~ada relative :o the !)ro;>osal to establish a ~ational Park in ~he Bonne !lay area .

. ... ........ .. -· ·. - ... #.... ~-U.f-"'- the Harmon Base closed. And this resulted in the lost of the ~ilitary Police. As a result of the base's closing there were 350 buildin~s left vacant. And there were a considerable number of break-ins, and an increase in vandalism. ~!any of these buildings are no;; occupied. I may add that the detachmen': has been increased to sixteen, after the crase closed, but is now manned by a staff of fourteen.

The last part of the Question - Does the Hinister that the present size of the Bell Island Detachment is sufficient to perform all the necessary police duties on Bell Island? In the opinion of the Chief Superintendent of the R. C.~~ .P. the size of the present detachment on Bell Islancl is sufficient to perf:Jrm all the necessary police duties. And in view of the fact that they have men that can be called from St. John's at very short notice. I a~ree ~ith his opinion. HON. HILLIN! R. CALL\EA.;: (:mnsn:;.~ OF n::ES, .' GIUCL'L'rt'Ri: A::!'l RESOlf!'I.CF:S): ~!r.

Speaker Ouest ion 142 in the name of the hen. l!'ernber for St. John's Centre, on the Order Paper of '..:ednesday, 'farch 4th. The question is in t'"o perts - !1) Hho or t.;hat firm does the maintenance ,;ark on Covernment planes? 'lhe anst.·er is Eastern Provincial Airways. :\nd

(2) Is this ,,·ork none on a contractual basis or in what manner are char~es ~ssessed? Hy ne7otiated contracts . Question ~ro. 164 in the na.~.e of the hon. mell'her in the ni\cce of the han. member for Gander on the Order I'aper of today, Thursd<~y, >'arch 5th . Hhat is the total number of people eBployed at the Agricultural Greding and Storage Facility at Bishop's Falls? I have to sey :1r.

Speaker, that this complex which was built by the 1ie,,•foundland Farm ?roducts Corporation none the less, is leased to the co-operative t"hich is a nrivate company, end I think it would not be proper for me to give, indeecl I do not have really, or offically t he ir,formation. I think the same ans1~er t·Jould have to apply to the seconcl rart of the ouestion, this facility is operated by the FAr~ers Co-op and other than leasin~ the buildi~g to them and seeing that the conditions of the lease are kept, we h ave actually no

part in it. Question ~o. 168 on the Order Pa?er of today :·r. Speaker asked by the hon. the member for St. Barbe South. It is in three parts - the first pert - Does Bison Petroleum and ~!inerals Limited or Canadian J"-velin Limited have oil exploration~rig h ts vlithin the :noposed boundaries of the National Park at Bonne Bay? Stickly, :-:r. Speaker, I could answer no to the question. But I think

.. , ~larch 5th. 1970 Tape 221 PK - 4 ~ffi. H. R. V. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to present a question to the Hinister - supplementary funds p.;rantecl ,.;as this granted in sup~lernentary supply or in regular votes of the year? HR. DA\•IE: Hill I am not - HON. E. }f. ROBERTS (~!INISTER OF HE.~LTJ:!) c!r. Speaker, if I may I Hill check in the absence of my colleague, I believe, this in the ma:f:n~estiamte approved by the House last year. HR. HAROLD COLLINS: ~(r. Speaker, is there any comparsion of cost made between the cost of these houses and I would accept under norwal methods? MR.

DA\•!E: In answer to that question, I did discuss this with the officals of my department, and they advised me that these costs compared very favourabl~: with the erection of houses in the normal manner. HON . STEPHDI A. NEARY (:HXISTER OF h'F.:LFARE): ~fr. Speaker, I have part of the answer to Question ?!o. 161 asked by the han. member for Burin. First of all, Hr. Speaker part no. (1) \,nat are the nur:1bers of persons on short term assistance as at 31 January, 1970 for each electoral district in ~!e<~faundland1 This infor.nation is not readily available.

And as my hon. friend kno..-s it <~ould take sometime before we could get it run through the com!Juters. But. if he •'anted to "r. Speaker, when I _11ive him the answer to part two of the question. He could just hy doin~ very simple mathematics divide $22.58 in to the fi)!ures that I mn amount to 12ive him because that is the average assistance given to e~ch individual, $22.58. So, if he would nod his approval, ~ :r. Speaker, or if the <cants me to pet the information for him, I ~·ill be glad to get it for him. I ,.;ill table this, so I will table the answer to part (2) of the question. And just to repeat, :·'r.

Speaker by dividing $22.58 into it, my hon. friend could ~et the number of oersons .

JW :1arch 5, 1970 Tape (1222 Page 2 was incorrect, namely the question concerning a letter to Atlantic Brewery. I wonder Mr. Speaker, if the Premiar ><ould nmv advise the P.ouse ~rhether or not any such letter was sent to Atlantic Brewery or any of the promoters of Atlantic Brewery, that indicated in any way there might be exemption from the profit apolied under the Alcoholic Liauors Act, and whether such a letter will be tabled? HR. SMALLWOOD: ~lr. Speaker, I do not think the auestion •1as in order but if Your Honour does not mind, I do not mind ans<Jering it.

The matter is to be looked at if the ~otion of my hon. friend the Ron. ~inister of Finance is adopted tomorrow, and if a Select Committee is aopointed. ?.ut in case it is not adopted, I have to say that the ans>,er I gave in this House w.;s strictly correct, literally and strictly correct.

And the question was: had I sent a letter exempting the Comr•any, the Brewery from the pavment of the orofits of the Board of Liquor Control. ~id the Premier inform the Ablantic Brewing Limited that they had an exemotion or concession granted hv the Government exemptinl< them frorn oaying the orofit of the :i"eHfoundland and Labrador Liauor Ce<umission on sales of beer as claimed bv the Atlantic Rre<.ring Company Limited, and as reported in Item 60 of the Report of the Auditor General to the House of Assembly for the financial year ended ~arch 31, 1969, to which I answered in one word: ~o.

And the ·no" had reference not to their being informed, because they were informed, hut to their being informed that they would not have to nay the Liquor Board's orofi t. I rene at that ans>.;er now. 1 Will the letter be tabled? MR. S:'-\AI,LWOOD :. If the House adoots the ~otion of which the Hon. the Minister of Finance gave notice todav, and the Select Committee be apoointecl - of course that is where the matter <.rill he fully ventilated. ORDERS OF THE nAY ~IR. J. C. CROSBIE: Mr.

Soeaker, I iuRt snake for a few seconds a night or so ago to start mv address on the Sneech in renlv, and hefore getting on to other matters, I would like to comment on th is jusine:o;s of Public Accounts, and a statement made :,v the 'linister of Finance todav. 'ly point is '!r. Soei\ker, that consultation such as last year's, when the Comutroller general was brought

JW ~larch S, 1970 Tape 11222 Page 4 in this honourable debate, because ~e roamed in manv directions durin~ that address. And if Mr. Speaker, I suggest it is - the voting oopulace of New­ foundland could have been present in this Chamber to listen to that ten hour address, we would no need to fear what was going to happen in the coming election. We on this side of the House, and those who run with us would be on the other side for certain after that address. Before getting to more pressing things I want to deal with some of the points the hon. the Premier made, and first I want to deal Mr.

Sceaker, with the taunt about crossing the floor three times - the !1on. Hinister of Social and Rehabilitation thinks roller skates are needed and so on. I want to address myself to that first. Nr. Speaker, aoart altogether from oersonalities, we are in this House, or we are in the Government to do what "'e think is ri ,ght for this Province, and for our Party, if we belong to a political oarty, so that comes second. In ~ay of 1968 ~r.

Speaker, I found myself forced to the view that I could no longer accept responsibility for the actions of the present Govern­ ment, because I considered to be headed in a disastrous course. And when I resigned at that time 'lr. Sneaker. my letter of resignation tvas tahled in this House. I want briefly to refer to it. That resignation ' lr. Speaker was not, I repeat, not just over some little issue of interim financin~ on an Oil Refinery at Come-b;;-Chance. That was the immediate n1attcr before the Cabinet that precipitated the resignarion.

As far as the proiect at Come-by­ Chance my position then was an<i is nm•, that there is no one in ~!ewfoundland at all who is going to be against having an 0il ~efinerv in the Provi~ce. That is not the issue. C'!y nosition has ahv;~.ys been '·! r. SpeAker - what do the people of ~eFfoundland have to nay to ohtain that !lil Refinerv?

Is the Government acting on their hehalf r>avinp, too :nuch for it? /\r<'! the oromoters of the aroject retaining on to themselves too much of the good things that are going to come out of that Refinerv7 Tt has been my nosition. it '.Hs then - it is now - that this 'R.efinerv or anv other i<efinerv '!r. Spea.lcer, is ';elcome in Newfoundland. ~!y nosition is and has been an<i continues to he that the promoters of the oroject are not P,iving to the r.overnment of 'fe\·:founciland and through it to the oeoole che benefits thev should be receiving for what \ve are contributing to the oroject.

And what ~e are contributing is the credit

that was the position 1 took Mr. Speaker, when that further concession was asked for. ~<d 1 said, no, no further will I go and giving concessions, concessions, concessions to these people who want us the people of Newfoundland to take all the risk while they take all the profits if it is a success. then , and that is my view no1-1, And if l1r. Speaker, they are nm; going to ask for even further concessions I will not agree to that either, unless the~e is going to be a substantial quid pro quo for the people of this Province and some extra benefit that we are going to get out of it.

That was the immediate cause Mr. Speaker, the interim financing. But only because, because that was the immediate issue that we could no longer go along with. In addition to that my letter of resignation Mr. Speaker dealt with these other questions and I am not going into them in detail. I did not agree then and do not now with the way the Government is going about economic development in this Province. Yes, we need jobs in this Province and everybody in this Province knows it, But the point is Mr.

Speaker, that this Government is not effectively cresting jobs it is not properly organized to go about the job of economic development, industrial development. It has not been successful ~ith the kind of ~ethods that are in use now. _tu\d if •1e do not adopt in this Province a ;no per organiza tior. as they have in other provinces the approac~ of feasibility studies and cost benefit analysis and a properly organized department of economic development and. a small industry of business

section and the rest of it. If V!e do not adopt that appreach we will not be successful Mr. Speaker. I did not agree with the present approach to economic and industrial development. I brought up the issue in a letter of the so-called cheap power policy, this was in "fay of 1968, and said I had serious reservations on that. These reservations Mr. Speaker, are not ans~ered today, two years later.

A whole host of studies have been done?according to an answer to a question in this Hous~ by the power board of Canada, and seven or eight other consultants and government departments, to detennine '"'he ther this Provmnce can afford to se!l power at less than cost:or ha1f cost to industrial users in this ,1,-'N,·c~" Province, and those studies are in the hands of the Premier. We do not if all members even the Cabinet have seen them. But we are not ~eing given the copies and that issue has not been gone into in detail in public. And that Mr.

Speaker I repeat is an issue that can make or break this ~rovince, Because if the policy is carried out, carried out foolishly and recklessly and we cannot afford it, the Province can not, we could end up in a financial disaster even though we have got a few/~~ii;::Itries here in :-lewfoundland. That 1;as another issue. , ...... -

that it would come within the Liberal Party there would be a new leader. I certainly did not expect it lvould be myself in view of what had !Jl'!ppened. But a new leader with a different approach, I could live with. So when I was invited to go to this original meeting at Grand Falls Hr. Speaker, I wrote the Premier when he invited me and outlined the basis I would go on. I would go as long as it •,;as under- stood I would,did not, that my letter of resignation stood and I still believe those matters 1<•ould not vote against the matters c:xpressed in my letter of resignation .

I ,;ent on the basis that he Has resigning and so on. The letter is in the public record anybody wants to see it. I knew ~r. Speaker, when I accepted that invitation to go to Grand FaJls that I was endansering myself politically. That the members of the public, hmv a lot of them would feel that I have gone back on \vhat I had done, or that was some personal advantage of my O\ro I was after or there would be some suspici0'-15, there ~;auld be a lot of suspicion. Because whatever a man does in public life there are thousands just waiting to say:"ah he is a rog'le.

Se~~Jhat he is up to no\v." Never give you the benefit of the doubt t.hat is not something you ex;:;.orience in public life is the benefit of the doubt. I ~Vent back :·lr. Speaker, and hen, members can belieye this or l'!o t as they choose - tlecause I felt that this ···as the. quickest way to get a change of administration and because I ,,.,as interested in staying in the party in which I had been a me:nber frol!l 1949 before I came back hereto ;:,ev- foundland. I made my m.m choice of the party that I .,.,as going to join, il) 19!19 eight years before I came back here 1 to ~ewfoundland. That is wh~ I went ~r.

Speaker, because I thought the change was going to come in our mm party, I kne~oT th$ political risks 1 that I would be better off last year if I was on this side of the House ••here I am noo;,•. Free to express "'·Y vie1:s as to \vhat this Governmcn t is doing wrong and I should change as I can now. I knew that. And I went back. And a certain hen. gentleman, •-1ho nmv jeers about somebody crossing the floor three times changed his mind again. After telling all the Liberals and the people of New- foundland tC!at he '"as retiring, and it would be a ft'!ee convention to pick his successor changed his mind again.

I took him at face value ~r. Speaker, I took the han. gentleman at face value \..'hen he nade his announcement. And so I ran in the Leadership Convention ~!r. Speaker, C,ecause I was and am convinced there :nust be a change, no•,.,, in the app.:aachs of t01e Government of ~et1foundlan~ in the problems of Oie~·£oundla;1d and if there is not we are headed on a course ttat threatens disaster. ~ell, ~r. Speaker, the results of the convention are know~. He have all heard in the House the hon. the ?remier jumping •-lith joy, roaring how I •.-as licked

Ma~bh 5 1970 Tape 223 pase 5. inte~est not at all. It was ngainst m1· Olo.'l\ !)en:onal interest. It <~ns against the interest o: :ny fatr.ily, ?<n:t1culaTly one's e:~gagcd in h1.1siness '"here the Covern~e:~t of the Province has such a trc~endous ~ffcct on all husine~s cetiv!ties) against all their interest. I did it because )!r . Speake~, I felt I had no <>ther course and bcca1.1se I felt it •..:35 in the best interest of the Province.

No14 I do not doubt :or a moraent that the hon. gcntle:nen opposite arc :,;here they are because they think chat is the best course !or the Province , and I wilt grnnt them that ~s long as they grant :r.e t';le sallie . And H it is pol.iticn1 blt·:;<!cr ·r-or if it is ?Olitica l suicide I so "'illingly l'r . Speaker, dc1-m to de::ear hhat is the price of it because i t is :~ct going to bot~er ;:e. I Hill. c:!rt:~1nl·,• 1'!is;; it if that is what hnppe:l$ . I like pu~lic life I am intercs:ed in this Province H"'ill not kill me .

Another day will -=c!l'e, these are blunders , are tH•ic:ices because of a reserd for this Province and where it should ~e ~cacinr,. ~ow, ~!r. Speaker, i:e:ore ?r.:ss:ng on, scce znatters 1 11ar.t to bd"lC before the House a few items of reb uttal. The membe-rs ever here ~!t , Spea~er a:-c nnt unite~ by a co:r.r.on dislike of the hon . the ?re!llter. That ~ s r.uc:h a juve>:\ilc \!i\r to look at these matters. :,'hac '"'e are conc<:rne<i a!:ou~ is this !'rc\·1..:::::!, ::-.'t whether~we li~e or disli~e an; in~ividual. ~~ost of the mc::1bcrr. on the ot!:c!' si<!e

March 5th., 1970 Tape no. 224, be given, Hr. Speaker, let us get the facts, not half facts and part of the facts. The fact is that the Holiday Inns' chain across this Province is costing the public of Newfoundland a substantial amount of money yearly. MR. STRICKLAND: Giving a lot of service to the: people though. MR. CROSBIE: Exactly, perhaps it is justifed. They are fine hotels and we need them, and a nice hotel to stay in. ~~ether or not the deal entered into is a good one is another question, but when the facts are supposedly be given the House, Mr.

Speaker, let us have the whole rounded picture, just not some esti~2ted profit for a Holiday Inn at the end of March 1970 and tr.en forp.ettin .~ all of the other costs involved and as a matter of fact, I think we have had to pay them meet deficits in the years previous to that. It is in the public accounts. They have had deficits in the two previous years. Pay no municipal taxes. That is all part of the picture. The han. the Premier mentioned, Hr.

Speaker, the increase in consumption of power in !'lewfoundland in the last three years. l<ell that sounds <;onderful just said by itself that Ne1doundland has had a greater proportionate increase in power, CO!".sumption of power than any other province -wonderful. Until you ask the question, to whom and at what price? Then you get a tremendous consumption of power by ERCO at Long Harbour. I am not sure of the amount. I believe it is 200,000 a year at 2~ mills per kilowatt hour.;, ;1hich is perhaps half the cost and that is included in the increase . Well is that so <vonderful, ~lr. Speaker?

That is w·hat ••e have to ask ourselves. Increase the consumption 9f power is grand, if it is economic, but if the increase in the consumption of power is having the result of inpoverishing the P1·ovince, the Government of the Province. then that m2y ~ell be somethinp. else again. To subsidize the cost of po•,•er to EKCO, as the hon. member from !'or tune says, is costing the Government around $3 million a year. 11aw there Fas a question on the order paper asking for the exact cost. The Government will not give the ans"t.•er, but v;e say it is at least $3 million - that is $3.5 million a year.

The taxpayers of this Province are paying to ERCO so that they will get pm·Jer at t"o and a half mills per kilowatt hour to employ perhaps 400 ~lewfoundlanders, an annual subsidy of S 7, 500 or SS, 000 a year for every Newfoundlander :<orking at ERCO, every year for t<·;enty-five rears. The 400 down there would not get the $7,500 or $8,000 a year each in wages. :loes that make any sense? With nothing further to co~e out of ERCO, the phosphorus

Harch 5th., 1970 Tape no. 224, Page 4 consumption, but ..-hat advanta?e is it going to be to us? \•le "''ant some facts, something to get our teeth into just to see ".oThere the oil refinery is now. If we are going to perform any useful function that ";;ay, ~!r. Speaker, we will have to have copies of those agreements, copies of the feasibility report, copies of all that material de.ys before we meet • ... •ith Xr. Shaheen and his assistants so that we can ask him a few sensible questions and just see where this thing is.

It should all be done by a con~ittee, much rrcre sensible by a corrmittee who would rep0rt back to the House. That is the sensible way to do it, not a big production in this House like ~(r. GrooM and Hr. Howley last year. That is the way I hope the Government will do it. It is all useless. \.Je cannot perform our function, }~r. Speaker, as members of t:-tis !louse to give some opinion on "here that oil refinery project is or 1'hether it is reallv e.ll 110 and at 1·7hat cost to the people of ~lewfoundland, if we are not given all that information <.•ell ahead of time.

I am not going to be any party to any nonsense here or be forced in~o saying that everything is alright,if I am not given am;>le ti!O!e to have a·.dern good look at it. Although some >Iill try to interpret it, and that is not being against the oil refinery. That is being interested in obtaining the facts for the people of Newfoundland about this project for which so much is being done by the Governrr.ent of Newfoundland and for such a small return, at the present time unless changes are made. Announcements, Nr. Speaker.

It ~>•as announced in the Fall of 1968 about this $305 million FRED plan, in Hesten1 Newfoundland at Trout River. There was another case <7here the Government of Canada hed not a?.reed with theGovernment of Newfoundland on this FRED plan. The \,oven:.ment of Newfoundland has su!Jmitted a suggested plan to Ottawa. They had taken a long time to prepare it and s~ent $300,000 the Premier said.

They submitted it to Ottawa, but Otta•1a had r.ot said this is approved by us, but despite that, the hon. the Premier goes to Trout River in the Fall of 1968 and announces it as thou~h it is a fact and ~hat is going to be spent, and then it turns out that Otta;;a has changed its mind. It no longer wants that approach or else i~ did not approve that olan. NR. SMALWOOD: 14ould the hon. gentleman allow me? Ottawa gave us the $300,000 to spend to make the plan. Every nickel of it came from Ottawa and the ;Jlan ;;as largely made by their own men ·"hom they sent do<.'I! here to join <d th our men.

It was a joint plan paid for tly Ottawa, but it uas Ottawa in the end at the last :n.inute "

March 5, 1970 Tape 225 Page 1 Ge familiar with it and here is an announcement of $135 million housing project for Newfoundland. Nm~, the truth of the matter of that is, that I think in the fall of 1966, or early 1967, when I was Hinister of Housing, the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Co~~ission negotiated with CMHC to start investigations in St. John's and Corner Brook to develop satellite towns, and I am quite willing to say that the han. the Premier was the initiator of it or certainly was a hundred percent for it if not the initiator. That was in 1966 or ~67 and ttudies have been going on ever since then.

I do not knotv "hat the present status of it is. But why there would be a dramatic announcement on June 11, 1969 a fact , there was going to be these tremendous developments - 5200 houses and the rest of it - not a joint announcement made between St. John's and Ottawa 1vhich is a normal thing because teere is going to be seventy-five percent finance by C~!HC. \,'hy that announcement would be made, I do not know, Nr. Speaker.

There must be some political reason, but I say that that kind of announcement is very dangerous and when·made in connection with industrial development projects for this Province, serves ·tis ill because the promoters ~rec·are dealing with are going to savage us to get every concession they can and they use:the premature announceraenta·to·do that and I have seen it happen when I was in the Government, time and again, tor ··: rhat weakened cur bargaining position. The other night, M:r.

Speaker, we heard an interesting discussion of the question period with references to all kinrls of authorities - Alpheus Todd, Chinese gentleman even, and many others for the question period in Parliament. And, Mr. Speaker, that \Jas wonderful and owe are learning hmv to ask questions over here. tfua t I suggest, 'lr. Speaker, that the Government 111ight very properly start reading some hooks on how to answer questions, because we are not getting the full and complete answers that we should get in response to our questions. There has been an improvement since the l~ouse opened.

Since our cebate of last week, there has been an improvement but not a sufficient improvement, Mr. Speaker, There is still too much t:.ris tin~ around to avoid ans"•ering I(} 0 I

.......... :.·- · All of this racket we have heard this session about Cabinet oaths and Cabinet secrecy is so much done, :-!r. S~eaker, to help prevent information getting out that the Government does not 1oant to get out. It has been overdone. Hy han. colleague from Humber East and myself left the Cabinet almost two years ago and have never divulged as far as I am concerned any Cabinet secret except in connection lvith the matter that we resigned on which is perfectly proper and I do not think that the other hon. gentlemen have either. So, let us stop stressing that, ~r. Speaker. It is being overdone.

The Cabinet is said to be a unity the hon. the Premier said. The Cabinet must have teamYJork. Very true. Very true, :rr. Speaker. That is ,.,,;ha:: it must have. But a tea~·ork imnlies a team. It does not imply a set of a master and slaves and that should be remembered, too. The hen. the Premier, ~lr. Speaker, r;,enticncd Solile things of which he was proud, the other day, including the Fisheries College and the Janeway Hospital. Quite properly so, th~se are good things the Government has done.

In some cases, there might have been - it might have bee:t better value for the money but, nevertheless, these are good things for the Province - solid achievzments. The Premier mentioned the :~arystown shipyard. ~·iow, :·!r. Speaker, that a is matter/that needs looking at. The hon. the Premier suggested that the Government constructed a shi?yard at ~!arystNm because it felt that - or had figures to show 175:draggers had to be built in the next few years, and ···hy should r!ot these draggers be built in :-;ewfoundla,-,d.

Dut, unfortunately, he went on to say, the fish co:npanies got into trouble and the draggers were not built or have not :Jeen ~Juilt. In answer to a question earlier in the session, ~·~:-. Speaker, the hen. the }'!iniste!" of Fisheries ans ~.;ered, I believe, t~at no feasibility st!tdy was done before the ~~arystow.1 shipyarj uas .:onstructed a~d you had to ask the question, "'If 175 draggers had to be constructed f~r rhe ~e~foundland Fisheries~ Not by the Governm~nt. I think you sairl by the company. Is that the one?

MR. :-!ALONE.r.: -- said that no feasibility study had been made in connection with the shipyard. I do not. think that question •.<as asked. The question was asked about the ~ishplant. ~fR. CROSBIE: Oh: All right, I Hithdrat-r that . It ~..tas not pertaining to the shipyard . ;oc3

toaay, Talking about jobs, talking about jobs. ~ewfoundland must have jobs industry and we are all practically crying listening to it and it is very convincing. It does not help us get joss, }!r. Speaker, and covers up the fact that they are not being created as they should be and what is being created is too expensive. Tne han, the Premier criticised the Opposition members over here. He said,not fifty words spoken about DREE by the other side. Well, what -do you expect, ~r. Speaker? Row can ~~e talk about DREE 1~hen we do noll know what ' DREE is?

He have :10 facts to go on about DREE. \Je kno1v there is , DREE, DREE, DREE, DREE. He have heard about DREE for months no1v, but nothing solid. There is· going to be a plan to come i!:lto effect April 1 for one year and then a five year plan and millions, \-le are waiting for the hon. the Minister of Communit:y and Social Development to outline for us 1vhat this DREE is. The facts. 1fuat DREE is and what it is ~oing to do for Newfoundland and 1-1hen the hon. r.~inis ter does that, we will discuss DREE.

He certainly "ill, but ho•• cen ·•e [:!et up here today and discuss DREE not kno1dng a darn thing about it. from :-low, we expect a lot/ the hon. ~!inister of Community and Social Development. I.Je expect a lot from him and '"e certainly give him fair treatment when he outlines DP~E. but he had better not try to baffle or bluff us, \ole ·•ant to hear what DREE is.

The facts. \;nat DREE will do for Newfoundland next year coming up and the next five years and not t~e pipe dreams about the billions that are going to be spent in the next fifteen and twenty years and the piffle and propaganda, but if that hon. gentleman gives it to us straight, we will give it bac~ to him and then we will discuss DREE. T..Je are not discussing it now; the fact that IVe are not discussing it now does not indicate we are not interested in it, ~r. Speaker. He are. We are just waiting for the facts. Well, there are a number of other items rebutted .

I am not going to get a chance to nake my speech if I do not stop rebutting, ~!r. Speaker. The hon, the memoer for !lumber C:ast was held up to rid!Lcule because he praised the Premier several years ago. It is easily understandable why he ;o cl :/

·-- MR. SNALWOQD: l gave the :igures . MR . CROSBIE : The hon. !'remier ~ave 11 oer eapi :a :fell: :::.~urc and chen he neve-: had che cou.pariso::s fo :: 1969 . ':'hat is all I ac point!:1g out. ~[R . S~iALLHOOD: l'ake SJ . l oillion and divide it l:>y --- MR. CROSBIE : I am not going to take $ ~. 1 billion and divide it by anything . this i s my sp;eech . :!r. Sneaker t anc! t aa- ~oin~ :o ~a;,;,e it. ~ am i10t to ing co spend :r.y ti::;e ci'lidbi; S3 . 2 billion by 1nythb::. A.'l i!O~! . XE'ISER: On with thE' S?eech, t!len . S?.i L on! MR. CR9S!!§_ : Thank ;.rou. Sail on . oh ship of (a!:h .

So ! jast point th at out lightly and -- •.<ell. I had bette r 1 "~\· e the re!>uc :.1l .-.nc P.et: to the !lOint :of my address . ~ . S~t-\L!.iiOOO : It ;;;ir.!lt do better . l1R. C?.OSB!:: : I do not k.'"\o;: i! ! uill co any be:tcr, !:~1t 1 could do ::l.!ch .:orsi! . ::'Jow, Xr .

Speaker . here is the Speech from the -:-·\l·one. !t !s not :he US!lal cin~ascope ;,roc!uctior. - :'le tec!:lnicclo::, no: J.t ail. !t is a c!iiferant kind o f s;>ee::h for the :Son. :!le l.eo.c!er o: t'le G.::vernr.'e•t: . '! t should really be c alled th~ ':thi sper !'ro~ the Throne' , :tot the Spcee:t from t he Throne . :-lot like prl!vious :u:l-throatl!c 't>ln~ts :l!:1t :.re have ~ad from t he Thr one . ?age 2 - ~l' Governm~nt ~as deciccc t o call a c~nEc=ence of ?ersons and organizatio ns to :..rho:~~ the ccono:nic future of our P::ovir.ce is l particular concern .

A valuo.'t>~e . ~erhn~s, !nfc~~tion device , ii ~~e fae: s a::d i:\:o'!'"'ation .are go in-> :o ;,e ~~vcn . : suspect, ho~o~e ·.,er, : ha : dtey are not because al::~ad;t . !.:1 ::!li !i House , ~he Gover:~;:u!nt has reEusec! "' le: as have all ::•e rep.>rts o f those po;.oer s t(;sies, ~:h 1ch is -

~larch 5th. 1970 Tape 226 PK - 2 speeches during the year. last year ~~r. Sreaker, pointing out or asking a question why they had given up our rights in The speeches goes on to discribe the that connection? .J-possible develor.,,-1- in the Lower Churchill of power, Nr. Speaker. Yet the Government -.Jill not give us the reports that indicate"'<Jhether or not power developed on the Lm.;er Churchd.ll can ':>e brought to Newfoundland and· used here at an economic price. Is the power on the Lower Churchill all going to have to go to Quebec? That is the question that those reports ans\ver.

Yet the Government ~dll not ,give the public of this Province the information. The Government ~entioned cevelop~ent of American policy. The Acmed Forces Base at Argentia, and the close dm·m there '·fr. Speaker. 1·iell the Goverru:-,ent cannot be blameS. for that close c!o•m naturally. And the Government appears to be doing what they can to organize to~overco~e the situation. The point I raise, :·r.

Speaker, is this, surely the Government of Canada principally the Federal Government of Canada should ha•1e some plan ready or some policy of assistance to one~ industry areas, "'hen the one industry of :hat area disappears or has to close dot.rn. In this case it is Argentia. !:here t,;as Bell Island. There lvas Elliott Lake, where the Government of Canada cid a considerable amount for Elliott Lake t·1hen it closed dom1. 'che rnen•her :-eing the Right Eon. ~'r. Pearson. 1-.'hy is there no such plan to take care of these eventualities all over Canada? There should be. A ..

"ld ;.•e can only hope that the Covernreent of Canada as •.;ell as this Government are goinf' to r,ive a lot ll'.ore assistance to "elp out in the situation at .\rgentia. Central Purchasing Syste"' is :, entionecl, "r. ~oeaker, in the Epeech from the Throne. 1·:e reserve j ud.~;rnent on that, until "'e hear more about it from the hen. the ~inister. On ho;.• it is going to operate. And hatoJ this tender system is being operated and all that business, ti1e hen. r.'inister I ;;m sure will be quite ready to give us all details. The hen. ;?entleJTlan is ~uite an authority on all things '!r. Speaker.

Then c .• ~h ombudsman is nentj.onec. There t<ill oe a ch~_nce to debate some of these thi.ngs later in the session, ' 'r. Speaker. Ilut the ombudsman is not the anst·!er to many of the ~olitical ,,,ron'(s in this Province. 'Chis is not the anstJer . He could not p,et us an office, for exar..ple. ':'~1ere 'dll be resolutions coming on ;ooCJ

March 5th. 1970 Tape 226 PK - 4 1-'.r. Speaker, I "'onder -.-hy this C-overnr.'.ent although it issnot within its constitutional jurisdiction. \ihy the Government of this Province is not I helping represent, make representations to Otta>-~a in connection •1ith the longshore men in St. John's, and their position with reference to the C.N.~. and the decrease in the frieght operations in St. John's this winter? Because a ~roup of workers in the Province do not come under the constitutional jurisdiction of the Province, does not stGp the Province makinr representations in their behalf.

But, we have not heard of that being done. And the longshore men of St. John's are a vanishing bree,} • and many of them unem1Jloyec. And I submit, Mr. Speaker, that it is the duty of our Goven1ment to try and help them, make representations to Otta~7a to counteract this. And there is another problem, ~~r. Speaker, that if it is not dealt tdth by some on~ is p,-oing to cause a lot of trouble in the future. Perhaps, the IS Government'l dealing·.with it.

And that is the problem that the Truckers of Ne<JfoLmdland are going to face from competition "-'ith the C.~;.R, ~'he are now entering the trucking business in this Province in a major uay. Is the Government doing 2nything about it ilr. Speaker? Because this is goin.R to be a big ±ssue. And there is going to be a lot of trouble about it. ~:r. Speaker, since I represented St. John's District, St, John's \.Jest, I would also like to say a .:ord about the police force in recent events. I have not come across a citizen of St. John's or the Island, I·Jho t•as not proud of how the St.

John's city police force conducted themselves during their recent strike. A strike that was brought about by mishandling of a situation. A shocking display of hm; not to handle a body of men in the year 1970. The old days of giving orders in Labour Relations is gone. I C.o not knot.; 1chy Chief Pittman adopted the hard line he did? But I a:':l quite convinced that he did not suspend thir}:y-tl.'o men without authorization from someone further up. And the police have the sympathy of the public almost unanimously on their side. They conducted themselves well, and did not capitulate ~!r.

Speaker when the carrots and the sticks were held out to theti!. They did not capitulate. And they are waiting now for a new Police Act, and a new salary scale. And ,.,.,e are w·aitinp; too, ~·!r. Speaker,to see whether the promises are met with performance. A magnificent display of men refusing to be intimidated, knoHing their position vas just and holding >lith steadiness and coolness to the end •hen they had a co~plete victory. /{)/I

taking the contribu t.ions and pl!t tins them i[) the g(~neral revenue <1nt! spending the money of the civil servants and teachers of this Province every year. It is a scandal in my opinion :tr. Speaker, ti1at a civil servant and a teacher or policeman 1•ho pays six or whatever the percentage is of his salary every year in to the Government's Treasury does not have his contribution put into a trust fund. The Government does not match it, At the very least it should be put into a trust fund and held so that it can only be spent on pension.

Yet, in this Province the contributions, pension contributions that are owned by the civil servants and teachers and the police are going to our general revenue, and the Government is spending it every year. The Government in my view should be matching their contributions each year, the plan should be funded, If they do not do that Xr. Speaker, surely they should not take and spend that part of the civil servants and teachers salary which he contributes to1vards his pension each year. Mr.

Speaker, when I was mentioning, mentioning questions, mentioning information one thing I might mention no;, is that how questions have been asked in this House. Hy hen. colleague the member for Humber Zast, asked today a question about - question 136 on the Order Paper where the Premier was asked to inform the House whether Atlantic Brewing Company had been told that they had an exemption or concession granted by the Govern ment, exempting thei'l from paying the profit to the ;~ewfoundland and Labrador Liquor Commission and sales of beer as claimed by the Auditor General.

That question was ans,,·ered "NO" Well Mr. Speaker, the question perhaps can be ans"ered literally "NO" but quite obviously Hr. Speaker, there is a letter from the hen. the Premier to somebody connected with Atlantic llre1ving Company Limited leading them to believe that they are exempt, that they were exempt from paying this profit of $2.49 per case on the sales of beer. That is just to illustrate the point Mr. Speaker, that questions are not being answered in the right and proper spirit in this House. They should not be answered literally.

Ii there is a letter to that effect, and ~Je all kno"' thnt there is it was mentioned last night '"'hY was the question not c.nsc.;ered? The letter was not addressed to Atlantic Brewing C0mpa:1y Limited, it was to so and so, and it said such and such, which led them to believe such and such. That is the kind of ans~<er we should have in this <louse ~1r. Speaker. ciot having to frame the questions so twist exactly to catch every possible;t~at there might be to get an ans~Jer. If a certain motion is passed we <vill kno <; more o.bout that later in the session.

But in my submission tl1e House 1vas misled ~Jhc.n that question ;;as /01] ~· ' ""

\. ,.-- --·---- -~-- ······. -· •····· "' · .,, administration to industrial development, If t·ie had gone a little slot;er it might have been there in a di ffe1:ent form, and a more SLlccessful form, \;e are not getting :!r. Speaker value for the money it is costing this Province and for the credit that we are tying up. Erco, I have mentioned before that is the most glaring example of the wrong kind of economic development for this Province. Absolutely glaring. The steel plant Mr. Speaker, at Donovans.

That steel plant was originally supposed to cost $2 million or $2.5 million and the Province originally was supposed to only be involved in it I think to the arr.ount of $1 million. wl1at has it ended U? at? $9 million, because of errors made when the plant was designed and other results of rushing into projects before the proper study and investigation is done. $9 million, what is $9 million? We might have had a steel plant there ~-lr. Speaker, a satisfactory one for one third of that price had we gone at it the right way. Erco I mentioned. A $15 million bond issue t.re guaranteed.

Around $800,000. we spent on the access road there, about $7,500. per year per Newfoundlanuer working there in power subsidy an<! so en. Ho,.r could that money have been better spent to create more jobs? That is the issc'e llr. Speaker. ~-o t that Erco is there, <1nd creates 400 - if "'e were using all the money we are using no"' on the Erco situation on other development tnere could be two or three times as mru1y people em~loyed. Hooring Cove Fish ?lant.

This is another one that cost almost tt<ice as much as it to/as supposed to, and now after the han. minister has had Kates, Peet, :·!ar,Jick investigate it - it appears that that is running alright at the moment the prices of fish are up, are high. But 1dll the operation HR.S.A. NEARY: ~~-e we rc a~·.n.~.re of ~hat the inve.s tigat ion just confirmed it. ~ffi.. CROSBIE: Very good. The :,on. minister ~iH~,., it before I am glad to :1ear him say that and t;1at Kates, Peet and !!an-tick IJent d01.rn there and confirmed it. Anyway ~!r.

Speaker, it looks as tho;.,gh it is alright at the moment althougn r . .,1hether or not the operations is paying ~~rinci;>e.l a('.d i:tterest on t'ne loan I do not kno\V yet. It may 'oc t:1eetir.g it's operati:1g e:..::pcnses, but that should be alright if fish prices stay up. But !·lr. Speaker, t~·hy clo T.ve not get ~lie facts '.inich brings rr.c to the third mill. The third mill that is 5UP?Osec.l to be located a: Come by Chance. Hhen is the Governme-.1t ~oir~g to give this J:ouse a f-:.rll - no the fourch Dill is at Stephenvill2, tl1e third mill is a~ Come ~y Chan~e . ~!R.

Sl!ALLWOOD: Just do not miss a ~ill that is all

.JW :~.a r ch 5, l9i0 TaneiJ 228 Pa.ge 1 I asked ~question about it on the first rl;ty . C1uestinn ~o.

(46) Fore s tal. Forest ry and Engineerin g International timiterl were retained to conduct a s urvey to confirm or othen:ise the availahili.ty of an adequate t i mher su)l ply for t he orooosed !'le~-:foundla:-~d and P:1ll> and Chemic:tl Comoany l.inited Mill at CoP!e-by - Chance. We \:ere to oay half the cos t and they were , the Province and t he Cotrn>anv. I ;~skecl c!id the r..wernme::tt r ecei vc> an i nteri~ report . And it ~1 as answered yes that an i:1teri.'" report t.:as rec'!ivcd. Had ther e been a final repol't recei• 1ed Hr . Sl'lenker ?

T."''e ans<.:er first given was ?t!S , and t :ten chaneed t o no: ana t~e t>ai.d ~t:mar•:ntlv S20 ,000 tow ards the cost. 'low :•!r. Soei!..lcer. wh·t has not t!-Jc fin.<\l r~nort o: fo-ees t al f.ores::r..­ and En~ir. eering I~ternRti~nal Li.mitRd heen ~eceivPd? Have ~h~v been told to for ~e t r he f inal reoo r t because scmtecma di<i not J i.ke t he i.:1teri m reoort ? What did t he int e rim renort shou t,;;;s the 1\i.tuation ~• it'\ re:<'!I':!Ct to that thir d :·ti.ll?

Thi s House, this "rov ince '-lr . !=!S!!aker, hP.s advanced ir. connection ~lith tt: at third ~till over S2 .5 million - are tile ~overnmen:: f:\l?.ra!'lteed a loan for ~ h~ t amount in connection ~i~h the thir~ mill several vears ago? 'llhat has t he $2 . 5 million heen soent on? lt'l?.t a re t he r~r o snects o£ that third :nill? !'i'nat was in this F'orestal ren or t? :<:ta:: are the costs be_nefics what is the cost henefi: analysis of. that oroiect ?

Is t he i\e~o:foundlJ;nd Government ~-ei_ng aske d to rl<:~ so much for us that: any analvsis ai the cost to the o<U>ple o: t his "P rovince as cc:noar ed to tile benefits tc> the!'! if it goes ahead - does it come out on t:,e cost side? I understa nd ~!I . Soeaker, c:-.a: ir has oee n su~nsted that t;;e r:oven1ment o f !'le•.·foundland shoulc have to ouil d all the :r<>acs :.n con:~ection t.-i~11 the cu tting of ;>ul? for that ::>roject . 'l'l>irty or forty Miles of road a year. HR. S}~LL!JOOD: Xot t r ue - ~m . 'ROSBIE: And it ~a s bee~ su~£ested Xr .

Speaker , t~at the Government was asked - ..:ell tve ~now that the C.overn::~ent is reoui.red to oay the difference in cost between woon cut on t he !sland of 'le ,.fou l~d l and , and uood ~ut on mainl and of LalHado::- fo r that :nill - ~ . SXALL\<00~: wood - And the Labrador wood will be cheaocr than che Newfoundl~nd ;ot?

--~ ~.-..:..---tIC-··- - - ~ ·'•~-- --·· · • If these reports are there and they show all these things to be /feasible, Mr. Speaker. lfhat is the danger in producing them? They are not produced because they do not exist in my opinion. They do exist. The hon the Premier ~10uld only be too glad to produce them and to produce the people who did them so '~e could question them and examine them and satisfy ourselves on them. Still on that third mill - when are we going to hear about that. What is the situ2.tion, ~r. Speaker, Hith respect to water at Come by Chance? Water for the oil refinery. Water for the thirc mill.

There is great difficulty in getting water do'm at Come by Chance. Has the Newfou !1dland Government agreed to pay for half the cost of the water system down at Come by Chance or half the cost of the company of it? Is water avai.lable down there? \-!hat is it going to cost? That should be answered. It is suggested, ~lr. Speaker, that the third mill project involves this Government, if it is to go ahead in such a yearly expenditure, that anyone who knows anything about cost benefit analysis, repudiates the idea·~that it should go ahead immediately \;hen they see those sngges tions. Well, in conclusion, ~r.

Speaker, all we <~.re asking for, and all I am asking for, is for the Government to se~the announceme!lts and the pro;::>aganda and to put before us or a co~~ittee of this House, the reports and studies and facts and produce the Hitness in connection Hith this third nill. Tne fourth mill, the oil refinery and other major projects li~e that, so that we have got the basic information and can decide whether or not these things have any chance of success. That is all ~<e are asking for. It is \;hat we are not getting, Hr.

Speaker, and that He. must ask this Govern01er,t to give us on behalf of the people of ~le t.;foundland. MR. ~IOLA.c1: Mr. Speaker, I do not have too much time at this time before the evening session, so I hope that I would be permitted to reserve the bulk of my remark for the evening session. There is one thing that I woul .d like to do, of course, as is customary and that is to extend congratulations to the hon. members tvho moved and seconded the address in reply to the Gracious Speech from the Throne.

I refer, of course, to tne hon. member :or St. ~!ary 's and the hon. ;:tember for Trinity ~orth, who I think have enhanced the prestige of this House on many occasions in the past '"ith sincere aLtditory and I /0/'9

------·--- -- ,_. Can anyone really imagine the hon. membet Eor St . Xnry' s , '-'00 '..'as in the Cabinet for many, cany 1enr~. as you know, being ce~cly a 'yes' wan fer anyone ? You can . .. .er the hon . me111ber fot Trinity North, being a sla~·e with no mtnd of his own? It i s a terrible insult . ~~ HON . }ffiMBER: The hon. member for Trinity North i~ here . ~R . NOLA.~: Yes , .right. ~tR . SY.ALLWOOD: The 'yes ' came about a/~~bi~ not here . ~IR. NOw\.~ : Yes, of C01Jrse. I s till maintain that it is an absolute insult ~o the nen concerned. An i ns ult, Mr. Speake~ .

Such mealy-mouthed muctcrings by the Opposition officials, non- official in bet wix~ the two , is on a par, to ~ mind, with the my ch of the Newfoundlanders .,.·ho cower i n fear every e lee cion t imc , and t his , too, has been ~en:ioned on ~ore than one occasion here i n this House . How often co we hear it? 'fear and trembling, stalks the land' . Newfoundlanders returned their Liberal Government in six successive elections bec ause they were afraid to do anything else . Tell me this . Ho;.. do you indmidate a :-le~o.•foundlander, ~!r . Speaker?

I know a lot of the~, I think . ! ~ave gone out and ! have as~ed for the~r voce s , as you hove . I do not kno~ ho~ you ~oulc scare one vote ouL of t hem, frankly . Oh, you know. A.~ HO~ . XE!-!Bt:R: 1 cert~'lly do kno\.1. MR . ~:o~~ : The hen . me~ber shoulc re~ember that t~e peo?lc of this ?rovince a.nd the Province and also the Lineral Pany are not for sale . !f anyone doubts m) "'ord, go out s ometi~o and try it and sec what happe:1s to you .

Well, I wean, if t~e hon . member is a?par~.tly :a~iliar ~ith fo~6, threats , and so on , perhaps he speaks W"ith some authority . l am i~ no position A.'l H0:-1. ~r.:~SER : Experience . ~re. . :-;oLA.'i: Experience . ~ell , l ao glad coat >·ou admicted it, sir . I s t ill maintain that it is a terrib:e insu;.c to ::e:doundlande=s fot" ; o.LI

·--~·-·-·- - .._.... 41o.;. ; ' PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND AND LABRADOR HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY Volume 1 Number 18 4th. Session 34th. General Assembly VERBATIM REPORT THURSDAY, MARCH 5, 1970 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE GEORGE W. CLARKE ·.

PK - 1 The House Net at 8:00 P.~l. HON. JOH.'l A. NOLAN: (::INISTER OF SuPPLY): Nr. Speaker, before closing time this afternoon I had an opportunity to refer to the two hon. members who moved and seconded the Address and Reply and to the fact that I felt they were fine and honourable men who had,in my estimation, and I would say in the estimation of many hundreds of people in this Province, represented the Province well and faithfully for many, many years. Now, I would like to go on to somcthinp: else, if I :nay.

And that is that one of the, I believe honestly the Premier's great acco..,plisbments since Confederation has been to instill in Ne•,•foundlanders a great faith in their Province and a faith such as they never had before. I do not think there is any doubt about the fact, that there was void in Newfoundland prio!' and pre-Confederation, I think it is unthinkable that anyone, especially anyone 1d thin the Province, who calls it their home should do anythin~ to iMpair that faith.

Yet, that is l·lhat is being done. lv'hen an intel1igent !Tlewber of this House r.oes back to a=.report that discribes rleufoundland of the depression years, and tries to make is this the Province today. I think he is doing a disserVice to his fellatv' citizens and he kno~it. All we had to start with twenty years afO was faith. Ve had nothing else. We had only the belief that 1.;e could achieve some measure of preatness. Before he died, Hr. Speaker, members of this House may recall, the great Empire Poet, Rudyard Kipling 1vas asked v~at part of the world ;;ould brinf. forth new marvels in the future?

He replied: "Ne~Jfoundland, a ma~nificent place, full of the gaudiest and the richest stuff. Hark my words! Keep your eyes on Newfoundland.'· Kipling had nothing to go on but faith, and so had we; and now I think that faith is paying off, and He still have need of it. But on all sides there is this tendency to tear down Newfoundland and Labrador, to down-grade everything that we do. All to what purpose? "For political gain, !1r. Speaker.

No matter ho;1 they deny it nor what they say, what party tag you put on it or where they sit, they are motivated by one thing and one thing alone and that, obviously, is to get rid of one w~n. That is the great challenge in Ne1·1foundland today. Do that and our future is secure. They deny hatred but it is there. They deny their venom but it is there. They deny spite but it is there. They deny their desire for revenge but it is there. Some people have mouths like a fifty-cent fish, Hr. Speaker. It was an old 1~23

and the list goes on and on. The opposition was fierce and terrific. Today we see it in connection with the Come-By-Chance P~oject. The sad

part is that much of the opposition comes from within, from Newfoundlanders who are so bent on gaining their otvn personal objectives, of satisfying their ow~ quest for power that they are willing to sacrifice even the interest of the Province to do it. Instead of pulling together for all we are worth to try to get projects that will create net~ jobs and strengthen our economy, we fight and quarrel among each other and do irreparable damage to Net;foundland in the process. There are those who know only how to tear down.

They rise to great heights of oratory in an effort to destroy, never counting the cost to this Province that is dear to us all. It is no surprise, therefore, that the new Department of Regional and Economic Expansion would come in for sneers and jeering. There are those who have taken DREE, as it is known, and instead of trying to assess its worth intelligently and reasonably they have been playin?, around with the names, doodling with the fate of the Province, turning DREE into DREE}!, as they try to show their contempt for it. Mr. Speaker, this is a matter far too serious for this sort of thing.

DREE, I feel, is the first great attempt in history to do something about regional disparities in Canada, the first real effort to try and make sure that no matter where you live in this great nation there is at least some semblance of equality, of opportunity, for at last Confederation does mean somet~ing. I think we will all admit that we were so intent in the first twenty years of Confederation on grabbing a share of the good thin~s of life, filling so~ of the gaps that had existed for centuries, that we had time for little else.

Now we can get dow~ to the serious business of making Confederation what it should be, and that is an assault on re~ional disparity on the top of our list. For those who want to get their priorities straight, this is something that ~~e should aim for. And we are all very proud of the role that the Prew~er has played in seeing that this ~atter got the top billing that it did. Now let us make DREE or DRE~ our dream, if you wish, for dreams do come true, especially if we all work together. That is what we have to do.

He cannot be continuously fighting each other for political gain for, if we do, the people of this Province will, beyond the shadow of a doubt, ~4ke us pay for it . I know the work that has been done by my hon. colleague, the ~!inister of Community and Social Develooment. His officials and people, both provincially and nationally, have been working on this project. And I know that sometimes it is perhaps to him discouraging Hhen he hears some of the remarks and the ,.... j{l).)

.•. . · March 5th, 1970 Tape 230 KM-4 sneers and the jeers that are passed out so frequently but I hope that in the not too distant future he will be in a position, when everything is ironed out, and it is only when he is in a position to do so will be bring in the plans and statements that he has mentioned earlier; so that we can all make our o~>n decisions. Now no doubt we are all going to feel that we know how the Province should go in the future. Many of us will not have had opportunity, or everyone, of participating in the discussion, because that could not happen up to this time.

As the Minister has mentioned earlier, in a little while we will be in a position to learn just exactly what has been done. N But a tremendous arno~t of work has been involved. How many people and how many hours and days and weeks were spent in attempting to come up with a plan that would be a beginning, to solving some of the problems that we have here in this Province. ~fr. Speaker, there should be counsel before any undertaking; and this Government does take counsel.

But Newfoundland is not the most attractive place in the world for those locking for new sited for industry, as has been mentioned before on both sides of the Rouse. We have to try and ~70rk harder than most provinces in order to get anywhere. Sometimes we have to ~o on faith and imagination. We just cannot wait for everything to be copper-fastened before we move.

If Sweden had waited for a technologist, for example, scientists and engineers to plan her progress to the last detail, see would still today be a mining - lumbering economy instead of the leading industrial economy of Europe, with a standard of living second only to that of the United States. It was people with imagination. If Japan had waited for a technologist to map everything out in advance, 1.;ith one hundred per-cent g:uarantee back, she would still be struggling to stay alive, as after the war, with a peasant economy, instead of being the third greatest industrial nation on the earth. Dr.

Heinrich Nordhoff took over the Volkswagen Factory, which had been bombed out, in the forty's when he had nothing but faith to go on and his dream of a German equivalent of Henry Ford's "Model T". He could not find anyone in Germany to go alan~ with his mad• scheme. ~~ny of the hon. members will no doubt remember that the British Occupation Authorities helped him only because they felt he would not succeed. He all know the Volks>;agon success story. Closer to home, I think we have many, wany success stories, stories of men, of Newfoundlanders with courage, enterprise and faith. For example: I o

... pressing problems in this Province to day. Man has certain basic rights. Just as mmportant as any of them is the right to adequate housing. Everyone born in this world has a right to have a roof over his head and yet we have denied this right to thousands of people . \That chan<;e has a family with modest income to get the kind of house that today requires a crippling CMHC mortgage in many cases? \That chance for housing exists ~or low-paid clerks, for example, who have to cope with the need to find $4000 or $5000 just for the land on which to build a house.

It is just criminal that ~ piece of unproductive land just a place to put the house should cost so much when we have so many people in need. They are licked before they start. They cannot afford the land let alone the house. I have talked about this before and I will hope that I will continue having something to say about it. And look at much of the housing we do have it is just desperate, people are living in places that are not fit for human habitation. And these are not people that have created this mess themselves.

They are good clean decent families trapped in the quagmire of high prices and simply unable to get their head above ground. Is there one among us ~.;ho does not hope that the shell housing mentioned in the Speech From the Throne will be a godd part of the answer to this problem. There has to be an answer somewhere no one suggests that this is the total answer it is not. But people are not going to wallow in poor housing forever Mr. Speaker, They will insist on treatment as human beings by a society that so far has only priced them into slum conditions. Mr.

Speaker there is another right, that I think is in danger in ~ewfoundland and Labrador these days, and just as it is everywhere else. watch the tendency to rob people of whatever privacy they have left. It is just disgraceful what is going on in some places. The invasion of privacy is enough to make your blood boil. ~fuat is the world coming to when you are no longer safe from prying eyes and ears in.your ow~ home.

Is there no truth anymore in the time-honoured belief that a man's home is his castle: Perhaps it is not all that bad in Ne~foundland, not yet, but it is coming unless we are on guard against it, and it is getting closer all the time. There are neHs items now vlhich talk of telephones being tapped and homes being bugged as if it were a perfectly natural thing to do. Hell they are not natural, they are anathema to any thinking person. They are against everything that we hold dear. Is it going on in ~ewfourlrlland? A number of people Hr. Speaker have told me that it is. A well-knmm business man

~mbudsman in this Province is a major step forward though:there are those who will try to hold this up as just another ploy of Government. t~e have already heard some criticism of the Throne Speech reference to this proposal on the a basis that would be a Government appointment. Mr. Speaker, all ombudsmen are appointed or approved by legislatures on recommendations of Government, only the Government can be expected to approach suitable qualified persons and secure provisional acceptance of the :pest.

There is no question that the ombudsman is an officer of the legislature appointed by the legislature and subject to d'smissal only by the legislature, This is one of the essential features of the ombussman system. There are three main features if I may list them. 1. The ombudsman is an independent and non-partisan officer of the House who supervises the administration. 2. He deals with specific complaints from the public against administrative injustice and maladministration. 3. He has the power to investigate, criticize but not to reverse administrative action. Mr.

Speaker. if I may move on to another point until there is a universal franchise in municipal elections in St. John's there ~~11 always be · people who are being denied of basic rights. During the last session of this Ron. House I had the honour to~bring forward several major changes in the city of St. John's Act, we abolish the corporate vote that distasteful system whereby one person had more than one vote. We extended the franchise to the wives and husbands of t~x- payers thereby doubling the number of people eligible to cast,ballots.

And now we· must take the necessary steps of going all the way of extending the vote to all residents of the city of St. John's. Perhaps we should do it at this session even though the next municipal election is four years away or perhaps because it is that would give us ample time to make any necessary changes and improvements rather than to leave it at the last moment. ~r. Speaker, one of the most terrifying problems facing us today is the non-medical use of drugs. I know that we associate the problem mostly with young people that makes it all the more horrifying.

But let us not confuse tha two so that a whole generation is condemned for the sins of the few. I just happen to think that the majority of young people in this age make up the most exciting and best educated and the most intelligent generation we have ever had. Of course you will get the extreme opposite of this opinion but listen to this young people today do not want to co-operate they do not want to listen we do not know what they want as a matter of fact now who said that /03/

~--_..._:;::•= .. ~ is this, and this is barely a scanty outline which would, of course, be elaborated on and planned in great depth and come up '~ith, perhaps, better ideas than I may propose. Why could we not take one of the ponds. Just one out of the thousands we have in the Province. Just one and stock it with fish. Let us make sure that the fish get the kind of food and water conditions that will allow them to flourish and grmo1 big. \ole would have to put a fence around the darn thing, but have it so the pond is available for special things and I will tell you what I have in mind.

For instance, we could arrange fishing competitions so that young boys and young girls -not the adults. They have got their own transportation and there are lots of other ponds and so on. I am thinking of the young boys and young girls who might never get away to the country - can fish to their hearts content under controlled conditions and controlled in such a way that as they fish, they can be taught conservation lessons. At other times, the pond reserved, for example for senior citizens that b<-could 1brought out to the pond.

OtherS; ,that I think of, for example, the young people, down •at the rehabiliation centre, •,;ho could be taken on a fine day up to the pond. Let them fish. It is not going to cost all that much, but give them a chance because if we do not , they are never going to have a chance.

More and more we are moving to an area where the best sources where people can go to fish.( I have never caught more than a dozen trout in my life, so it does not make much difference to me, and they were tied on) But, the fact is that more and more people with their own planes and so on, who can afford to go to tee far~off·places and rr~ve inland, are the ones who are going to have the best opportunity to fish. Perhaps, someone might give some consideration. ~aybe the press. Someone - to the idea that I suggest,.,.- Perhaps it has some merit.

I would think that other members in the House and the press and citizens, generally, could elaborate a-.1d enlarge and improve on <~hat I have suggested, but just do not thro <v it away because it came from this side of the !louse. The main point is, this project would be, I think, extremely useful in many ways and ~e taking advantage of a natural blessing that many other cities

I I i.. ll ---~---------'------ accommodations, generall~, there are outside the Avalon Peninsula? MR. NOLAN: Right offhand I cannot give you the answer about the number of homes, Mr. Speaker, but I do know that there is not enough. There is n~ question about that. The fact is tvhether they are or they are not and I am not, for one moment, arguing with the hen. member opposite that there is not a need for other such homes. No dispute. ~fR-~ ~LLS Dire. MR. NOLAN: Dire need. Okay.

I will agree with that also, but this is not the total answer and if this is the major concern of the hon. member opposite, then he has missed my_: point completely and I failed. I do know there is a need for this type of thing, obviously. ~o one will dispute that. Ml~. l.'EL~_?_: __ :That comes first and tvhat the hen. gentleman is talking about is necessary, too, MR. NOL~{: It is the recognition of a person, Mr. Speaker. We are living in a society where more and more when you reach forty or forty-five• you might just as well put a sign up on their back and say 'finished'. That is what we are moving into.

That is exactly what is happening. Now, it may be that some parents can plan for old age and are independent t:o the last. Certainly, they ll.ad a better chance of doing that now in the days of generous social assistance and old age pensions, but how many old people in this Province have that opportunity in the years that we can remember.

Only the very few and the very fortunate and it still does not get over the gap in their lives created by the feeling of now being wanted. ~.Oat a heartache it must be for a father and mother when the children they love and the children for ~~hom they sacrificed so much to see that they were fed, clothed and educated, now turn their hacks as they strike out on their own. \'hat heartache there must he for parents who are tnld that young people have their mm lives to live and there is no room in them for doddering old people. How many elderly people die of broken hearts? Nr. Speaker, it is a sad fact.

This is based, I must admit on an

article from the U.S. by a doc tor that ·I read. The people over sixty-five is the only group who is life exPectancy is not increased since 1900, At any age up to sixty-five you may expect to live longer than an individual of the same age seventy years ago, but not if you are over sixty-five. ,-­ 'JOy is this? Surely the advances of medicine in controlling disease~~~ j

I know people within walking distance from this building and I learned about that first as a broadcaster and as a DJ, as a disc jockey- late night, and people used to phone up asking for a record of one kind or another. Some were young people. Hany were some of the older people, also and after awhile as they .phoned night after night, week after 1~eek, eventually, like in any other case you get to knm• some of them and they are in two categories I would suggest, perhaps, more.

One is people who are old '"'ith their husband gone, perhaps, wife or their children and their financial circumsta~ces are not the best and they live in dingy, terrible houses. That is one area, and they have a number of problems to live '"ith. And the other is people 1~ho can, as I know and as I am sure han, members in this House know, people who do have the funds. They have got a nice apartment or their own homes. They have got a car perhaps. Even have the money to go on a trip if they want to. What in the name:of God is the good of it if you are all alone? That is what I am trying to get across here. Big deal.

You invite them out for Christmas dinner and you have done you bit for the year. I do not knm~. Maybe I am - maybe this is just a thing with me, but when someone goes through life, as you know, they have not started any great paper mills. They have not led any political party. They might not have been well-known in public life or in any other way. All they have done was to work, do their best for their church, for the community. Never see their picture in the paper. Never hear their name on the radio or television. They stay out of jail.,- They bring up their families and what do we do?

I wonder would it be possible to have a dinner or a banquet or <;o:J·, special :\ whatever year for people in that - who in that year reach their seventy-fifth or eightieth birthday. ~~ybe it is a crazy idea. I do not know. At least, to give them the memory to cherish in their last days as they pass slowly along that road that we all have to travel and it will be a tribute from society to my mind.

Of course, it costs money to do this or perhaps their might be better suggestions from the other side of the House on this matter if it matters at all, especially if you had to do it on a regional basis, say a dinner ---- -·-·------- -.,.

_ __ .._.._._. ~~-~~~M'-.-_ ... ____ :_.__;~--------------o.-.....---. --: .. _ .......... -----.L ----··-- . ...... ---'-' ·. I •j 1 I .J : I Tra ns-Canada, '•'hid'1 is something that would be very, very useful. The businessmen, truckers, especi~lly, ·.o~ho noc~ fi:1d it nacessary to col!le out the Topsail road to Conception Bay to the Kilbride a.rea and then double back towards the Goulds, B41y Bulls and on do~m the southern shore.

------------------------- -------------~--·---- House feels t~1is •.:oy Sir, in reference to t~1c speech just made by my friend and colleague t~H.! :linister o:: SupiJly, He ilnd I have been chums for a long time and he does not ~no'" \-Ihat I am GOing to say no'i, l:>ut '.V;lat I am going to say speech Sir, it had a certain amount of fight in it and so it should have, it had good proposals, some vl.!ry good pt:oposals that I hope ~;e W"ill hear a little more of.

I am especially interested in the fishing references Sir, as of course the han. gentleman catches fisi'l only 'w'ben they are tied on, and I knoW" that because t\JCre have been times when I helped tie them on for hi;u, l<'hile I am in a congratulatory mood :·!t:. Speaket:, nay I say '~hat a number of other members have said earlier in this session, and congratulate the editot: and the staff of out: Hansard, our verbatim record.

By my count Sir, this is the eighteenth sitting of this session, I thin~ it is eighteen I am subject to correction, but os I ;nake it it is eigl1teen, and we have just had placed on our desks by our ~ages the eleventh edition, the verbatim full edition. It is a splendid llchievement. ;,1e produce ,,•ords at a great S?eed in here Sir, eighteen sessions at three hour,; each is fifty-four hout:s of debate, of questions and ans<·7ers, fifty-four hours of the l:iouse sessions Sir. If we speak at 100 words per ninute for sixty minutes per hour that is more words than I <~ould care to count.

But Sir, it is 'lUite a tribute that they have been able to produce the Hansard this quickly and keep it as closely up to date. I am glad to hear the !JOn. member say tll.:!t Sir, because I <dll little later make some reference to ;;ome remarks he has !!laue, and of course Hansard will be a relevant document to tvhicil I Hill draw his attention. :1R. NEARY: You will not hear - hear, hear L1en ~!R. E.M.RO!.IERTS: ::r.

Speoi,er, it is traditional in the debate on the address in reply to touch on many things, not least of them being to touch upon the status, the condition, the activities of the districts •.•hic'J eacn of us t:epresents, so perhaps Sir, I may be pe=itted to say a few lwrds about the district of White Bay :·forth. It has been a hard year Sir, [or our people in White nay North.

The people there make thair living or do not make their living by the fishery, W"ork in the ~Joods, anu perhaps the 300 or 400 jobs ia the hospital and the I.G.A. but it is the fishery Sir by wnich White 6ay :·;orth like so many other parts of ~iewfoundland lives or dies. This past year Sir, the fisnery 1.ras as bad. as it has ever been. In i1aroour after harbour, man after man spent the summer fishing?well up into the fall, vJell up in i.J<!cen,ber W"i'len the ice comes and Sir leV/ - --r---- --·----

----- -- -z......~ ...... --~------- people. George Humby is doing a first rate job :-!r, Speaker, and he had the courage, he put his ot,'Tl assets to the rest, "e backed him, -vre backed him lvith the timber limits, we backed him \rith a guarantee at the bank, and he is producing.

It is really the best net•s that I have had from White Bay North all year and already Sir, -vrithin a period of two or three weeks you can see the difference in Rodderickton, and Englee, and Conche, and in }fain Brook, and in Bide Ann, t.;here people notv have the chance to get that job that they want, At Hain Brook Sir, Betvaters live up to their noble tradition of never knowing when they are going to come or vrhen they are going to go. My colleague the member for l.fnite Bay South has been eloquent on this in the past. Bowaters continue to cut almost at lvhirn or at fancy with no apparent pattern.

They may have a pattern Sir, but the people do not know about it. Of course the anstver to that is the Government 1 s policy to buy out these paper companies, buy out their timber holdings, guarantee the mills their wood supply, buy them out and run them for the benefit of the people of this Province. Hayte I can mention l!IY perreni"ll terror, fear on this subject, ar>d that is the "Nooney Block" one and one half millions cords of crood owned by Price (~Hld.) that are rotting, just rotting, they have not cut 10,000 cords of wood on it in thirty years Sir. Rotting, rotting '"hile the people rot too.

Rotting when it should be harvested and used because wood Sir is a vegetable as Your Honour knm-1s. lvood grows and dies, and if it is not harvested then it is wasted. But Sir, we still need, even when we r;et our woods industry in our hands, as we will God willing,m~ still need further tlevelopments and of course that is the basic purpose of this administration, and that is •..1hy I take pride in being part of it. we are not perfect Nr. Speaker, even if we ever thought we lve.re C:1e hon. gentleman opposite quite properly and rather effectively reminds us of t!1at.

LorJ Randolph Churc!1ill said I believe, I believe he "as the author of t;1is " that it '.<as th~< duty of the Oppoaiticn to oppose." I agree ~ "it""n that, I ti~ink it is a. first rate thins and Lord Randolph ~!r. Spc2ker, gave Pr lmer :~tin is ters, the PremLers of i1is day in England, particularly ~iilliam C:1-1art Glads cone the great liberal, the grand old man, gave t :1ern an Oppositiotl l ike he had never seen before. Eventually Lord Randolph came to office c·[r, Spea~er, he came to office finally in t ile election of 1836 ~hich was t ~ 1e second electiotl iu a tett ~onth p2riod, and

Harch 5th. 1970 Tape 234 PK- 1 Nr. Speaker, let 1:1.e mention loriefly sowe of t~e i;r>nrovements in )>Ublic services that have been made in \.!hite Bay :rorth this ;'ear, He still have a long ~•ay to go, but He have made some progress. This year finally the road to Conche was built. Finally it took a little doinf, and it took a few dollars, but thanks to my present ~!inister of Finance, the former Hinister of Highways ~•e got it done. We got it done.

I think, Conche is the largest community on this Island, Sir, not on an Island within this Island, but the largest community on the l'lainland, that did not have a road link. There vaybe the odd place up in Fortune Bay, around that part of the sout:mest coast, but I am not to sure, Burgee for one. Conche nmv has its road, Sir, and the !100 or 700 people have finally been given the advantages that their fellm,• citizens had for so long. Sometimes, Sir, when I hear of petitions and demands for pavement and blacktop and rebuildi.ng, and ne'" roads else,...here, I can support them, yes.

But, I can also re!T'e1'!ber the people of Conche, or the people of Creque, and northeast Crouse, Grandois, St. Julien's, and I can remen•her above all the' people of Great Brehat and St. Carol's, they too, deserve roads Sir, : 'y bon. friend from Trinity North knm·Ts r:reat Brehat >Tell. I have heard tales of some of his meeting in Great Brehat. But in d~ference, Sir, to the Hules of the Pause I ~·ill not go into them in too much detail nm.r. Hr. Speaker, also ,.;e got the lights put in Ralei?h and Ship Cove, this year if the House gives us a few bucks, a few dollars, some lig~ts to some other communities.

The C.N.T. finally, they move like rlaciers, they finally produced a few more telephones. So nm-1 I have the pleasure of my constituents phoning me daily. A very useful service, especially if the House sitting afternoons and evenings, I can keep in quite close touch. ;~e got a long way to ?;D. f.!e got a long way to go yet. I am glad to hear ro.y !ton. frienu supnort the road from Brehat, I trust when the estimates are brought in he will speak in their support. I have been speaking in their support, perhaps all of us together, the lvhole House will get this road for those people. \·!e need lights in Conche, St.

Anthony,Bight, Quirpon and Straitsvie1•. Funny names perhaps, tab '"any people up here in the sboth, Sir, to the people who live in these communities and ;:ho still use Delco's at ten cent an hour, when they work, Government lights are pretty important. These will have to be diesel units for the time being, but the;r are still pretty important. He do need paver.lent especially i.n St. Anthony, and I have got hopes, bounded on firm faith. iJe need - ".

. --- ~·---- ·---- "----· !-farch 5th. 1970 Tape 234 PK - 3 A great figure Sir. The hospital at Stephenville, in the District of Port au Port, i·~ named after Sir Thomas Roddicton. So is Roddicton the To~m of Roddicton. He hope to get a - HON. G. A. FRECKER: (]!INISTER OF PROVINCIAL AFFAIP.S): The gates to McGill University in Montreal are named the Roddicton Gates. HR. E. M. ROBERTS: Indeed, my friend the l~inister of Provincial Affairs, the gates to }!cGill University in Hontreal are narr.ed the noddicton Gates, after Sir Thomas P.oddicton, and p.iven by Lady Tioddicton.

There are 5,000 people in that area, Sir. They are a 150 miles by road from a doctor, t,,,,enty minutes hy air, when the t~eather is good enough. We got ~ood air ambulance service, that is not good enough. So, I hope we can get a doctor in Roddicton, and again I have a little !!'ore than faith to go on, when I say that. ~~ile I am at it Sir, may I mention just one s~all noint about Roddicton.

There T.Jas a report on the radio that somebody said, there h:1s been eif';ht deaths from flu in Roddicton, or in the area. that is not true. }!y medical advisers tell me, as far as they know, it is a day or so old not~, that there have been only eight deaths in the ~?hole of Newfoundland that can <J.nYT.Jay be attributed to flu. Nobody is saying, that tl,ey ~-:ere caused by flu, Sir, bl!t in T.Jhich influenze t;as a factor. t:ight in thP. ~Vhole Province. Some Phere elderly people ~[r.

Speaker, ~1e had a case Ph ere a you..-w lady, a youn? vcman, a youn.e ~irl, in her twenties died of phnemonia lvhich t<e thing t,·as brour,ht on by the flu. The serious thin~ with flu is, elderly reople. As m~1 hon. friend the Leader of the Opposition, I suspect kno<rs full Hell there is no cure for the flu, one justl;as to go to bed and suffer it. I presume he hed the flu in his absence from the Eouse this t·reek. ~~R. ANTHO~N HUPJ'HY: Hronp as usual. --- -- }{R. R.OllF.RTS: ------ Hron.e as usual.

The han. gentlelllan .,as out of t01m spreading the - I knot~ uhat he 1,•as doing, he •,;as srreadi n . ._ the fit"'V cross, and they ;.,ill get forty-five at the next r1eetin" in tePisporte, and 1'ot forty-four. And six in Burin. MR. ~· ~RPHY: And the ;:>eople of \>.'hite fla:' 1:orth, ve are so nroud of them. ~· ROBERTS: 1·'r. Speaker whil.t the reo?le of ;.:hite !lay North think of their member he will find out in due course. I Hould not ask the hon. p-entleman to run against me, if he td shes he could. l:iut I do not helieve in th:C~t sort of thing, but I do hope this party t;ill nut up a candidate.

Last tine. they had to canvas, last time they /CJY7

____ __,,___..___ ____________ -------· ·-----------·--- 11arch 5th. 19i0 PK - 5 ;~ot terribly excitin~, c>:<ceot it <loes mean the pLmt can continue operatlnr. and tha few hundred people 11ho fi.nd '·'ork there w·ill continue to ret their jobs, and the 150 fisherr·en, uho sell fish at that plant th<'v C;"Jll c0r.t:i:-.ue- tq dQc.bhat We do need further il!'provements at l.nrlee, but I am tHisting the arm of my collea~ue the l-1inister of Fisheries, and his officals, and have hope. Of course, we need dragy,ers, both at Englee and !':t. iJJthony. That is a different problem on the northeast coast.

As far as education goes, .:!:i the J{ouse may have heard Sir, as members have heard, tomorrm. · the l'rE':r.ier and l r.o to St. Luna ire or St. Leonard's as it is often called, just nor til of St .. '.r-.thony, 1:e are go in~ to take pnrt in the opening of the mac.nlf!.cent new c>leven or t::!elve roo;" school, all p-rade school it ;;erves the Penteco;;tal children of tha~ er\tire arec, in place of the school that ''a~ completelv destroyed by ri re about a y.-ar nnd a-half ago. It represents a tt:eDendous nchiever.,ent by tltose people, ~ir.

The insurance on the school, and the capital ~rants to tlte l'E'ntecostal /.sse"'bl ies, the porportional grants have helr>ed those people,SJr, in th::~t area, h<lve ;c;;de it an altoget~er t:1aRnificent contribution. I l-rill never understand llo•· do they e.o so much, <·lith so little. But, I 1-:ill he proud to rc there tr>t11orrm-1, and no dout>t the Premter will also be e(]ually proud. /1nC: 1-JC wi:l be a"'on1! friends, 'ir. Speaker. \·:e -..·ill he amonr, frlends.

In Harbour :;eep antl in I' odd Lcto:t, KC have had net schools open this year as '"ell. 1·."e still need !"ore classr,'or·:;, narti.cul;:rly in ~;t. ,\nthony. i>ut !·Je have c·ade a lot cf pr-o~ress this year. ·-:Li.te n.~<· :;orth uas t:,E' first area, I relieve, to a fully inte~ratecl school systc~. the amalKamated system centered about the collepiate, the liar-ry Curtis Colle?,i<lte at 'fl' :\nthnn;·. it is n01-· in operation two or three years. The results hr1ve he en d r.~rat ic.

TlH~ i_p1p.rovement in grades, the ir.:prover.'lert in the erucnt ion nf fered c~i 1 dren - no r.at t~r ho,,· you n:e.nsure it, ha~ beP.n surerb. t"t£"[!iT' .. f;ir, Cl trerenclous <1Chieven·ent }.y the neople of the area, our local leadershin, ~nd ~e ~till need. particularlv in St. \nt~on~. a vocational school.

The 7~inister of Education. t·!ho is r.ot ~:itil us tonight, I think !te 1-1ould agree, and arain, ,,,e hopE' that before vcrv rrt~ch lonr;;r ,,•e ~<ill he in a posicion to provide these facilities, ther-e <1re none north of CornP.r Brook now, and as t}oe hon. member for St. llarbe South l:no..-s its a lonr 1-rays fro"' Corner J.rook to St. Anthony. It is a r-ood road, but it i.s n lon>" r-oad. 1'e do need that sc!\Ool.

... •· . ·· ,----- ~----~--~ --- -- ·----- -·:-..: ! ________ - - -· . -- • ·::o:: March 5, 1970 Tape 235 Page 1 GC in his remarks the other day may have - as always eloquently and with force and with knowledge and with enthusiasm and t~ith t·rut:h, as always may have painted a picture, a very good picture, perhaps one that I am not able to live up to, but,,Sir, for your benefit, I will try. I will try. That is all I can do, but I will try. What I am talking about, Mr.

Speaker, is, of course - in fact I would like to say a few "''ords about the han. member for Humber East who I am glad to see is here in his seat tonight. A. few ~rords which 1~ould touch upon some of the things that the hon. gent1ernan has said in this House at our current session. Now, Sir, right at the outset, may I say that it is not my intention to debate with the hc>n. member at this time, and by debate, I mean differing with his opinions or 1Jith his views. There is plenty of time and plenty of opportunity for that. We have got a long session ahead of us.

Governments open Houses, but, Oppositions, whether they be regular, irregular, travel~ng, or not, Oppositions close them. We will be here for a~1hile yet, Sir, and there will be plenty of time for debate between the hon. gentleman and me. My intention today, is a little different.

You see, Sir, I have listened with very real interest to a number of the speeches made particularly in this debate by the hon. gentleman, particularly the one I believe was made on Monday 23, February, on which he spoke on the - in this debate on the address in reply, for the hon. gentleman's benefit, the Hansard/~aich I have a copy if he wants his :{o. 3 and his remarks with which I am sure he is intimately familiar, are set forth at considerable detail. The hon. gentleman - MR. \.JELLS: I have not had a chance to look. !1R.

ROBERTS: Well, pet: haps the hon. gentleman might want to look, but if not, I will again try to help him, :-11:. Speaker, and I will try to refresh his memory for him. ilut, if l1e wants the reference, it is the -it is Volume 1, :la. J and I <io have an extra copy if his is temporarily unavail- able. \.Jell, Sir, I found the hon. gentleman's speeches eloquent and articulate and that may sound unusual corning fro"' somebody who opposes the hon. gentleman politically. \.Ze belong to different parties. He differ on politics. MR. l.JELLS: Same Party • .,

·-- -- ····- ·--'--- ---·--·- --'---- March 5, 1970 Tape 235 Page 3 GC thepeople here, but until they occupy their seats in the Chamher, of course, Your Honor's ruling is the correct one. In reply to the hon. member from Gander, I can only say that Polonius could easily live in Gander for the hon. member would kno~.;r. Mr. Speaker, as I listened, the feeling that there 1.;ras something wrong, grew larger or longer, rather. Finally, it became quite apparent to me what was wrong with the hon. gentleman's speech. The conclusion just leaped out at me, Sir.

Just leaped right off the table - leaped across the Hay and there it stood, plain and unadorned. It was a hard conclusion to reach, ~fr. Speaker. It was very hard to decide just \vh:>.t was 1•rong Hith the han. member's speech. It is a hard conclusion to reach, Sir, -because ,.,hat • . .;ras ~orrong about the hon. gentleman's speech was so very wrong anri so needlessly '·Irong that I found it very harcl to credit - very hart! to credit, th:'lt this type of error could be made by a member of the House of Assembly of this Province. But, Sir, I must give him credit for that because the errors were made.

Just what was the error, Sir? ~lhat was so very 1nonr, that I found it very hard to accept? llhat was so very wrong that I found it terribly \<lard- to grasp the reality of the situation? ~-fr. Speaker, the Rns• . .;er as is so often the case, in matters like this, is simple. As r listen to the hon. r,eatlemRn's s;>eeches and then as I - reread them in the Hansard, it became quite obvious what l.Jas wrong. The hon. gentleman simply did not know l?hat he was tRlkin2; about. I am not speaking of his opinion, Sir, although I find them wrong in most cases, but, that is not what I am after, now.

I am speaking not of his viet.;s. :rr. SpeRker, the hon. gentleman was earlier told by my colleague that he has a mouth like a fifty cent fish, let him not prove it again. I listen, 'tr. Speaker, to the hon. gentleman. MR. \!ELLS: I do not know what a fifty cent fish is. ~!R. ROBERTS: The hon. gentleman does not know ~>hat a fifty cent fish is. A fifty cent fish is one a boy, a little boy can just stagger along with. It has got a mouth about as big as the hon. gentlcnan. Mr. Speaker, I listened to tl1e hon. gentleman, and let him listen to me. If he wants to leave the House, that is his privilege but let him

----..~~ ---------------- - -- - -- --.:-- March 5, 1970 Tape 285 Page 5 GC based firmly on the record. It is based upon the hon. gentleman's words as we heard them in this House, Sir. As our reporters took them down, they were then reported in our Verbatim Report - our Hansard, here. On the basis of the what the hon. gentleman said, Sir, I submit that the han. member was not only wrong in his facts, but that he was careless in the extreme and Sir, the gravity of the charge is with the second. Anybody can be wrong if they be careles9, Sir. If they be careless, is another story. ~ow, I have spoken of evidence, Mr.

Speaker, and with a charge like that, I should support - I should bring forward some evidence, so let me do so. Let me look at an example. In the hon. gentleman's speech in the address in reply, he took some time to scoff at the DREE program. Re is a pretty good scoffer, so he scoffed at that, too. His viei¥S about the DRF.E program, I think, are·quite wrong, but, Sir, that is a matter of opinion. That is the matter that will be resolved liri thin due course. \J..·.

"\( t·--\ \.!hat I am concerned about, right noH, are the facts that .. 1 led ,the hen. gentleman - led by the hen~- gentleman in support of his opinion. All right, what did he say? lie said in speaking of the program, that we could not afford to pay for it. ~o~~. that may be a matter of opinion, Mr. Speaker, that we cannot afford to pay for something. It might be a •~tter of opinion. So, maybe that is not wrong. Maybe it is. ~!aybe it is wrong, but we do not want the hon. gentleman to know that or he might believe, in fact, we cannot afford to pey for it. But, just what did he say?

On what facts did he base his argument? Let me quote, Sir, and if I go wrong, I hope the hon. gentleman will correct me because I do not intend to do him any injustice just as he would not do me any. If I go wrong - I am wrong, and if the report is wrong, if Hansard is wrong, if his words are incorrectly put down, Sir, then let him say so. I can only read 1·1hat I have in the copy that has been given Your Honor and has been given to every member of this House, Sir, and I assume, to the press as uell. The relevantl~'i;~in, Sir, is the afternoon I believe. No, the evening of Monday, February 23, Volume 1, No. 3.

. . r--·---·_...,;;c,._..._;,..,..:l..&o,!:.-..:._.;a..;-... ..;..;.:ot-....._::#~ ..... ~ ..... ~·-la.;_.,.;_. -:-~':i..N.'W.i:£:.:.'._:..~-:.:.~~--·· .. ~ ... --.:- quotations Sir, the pages are not numbered, has the hon. gentleman the place? It is about tl-!elve or thirteen lines down. MR. J.fURP!IY: They are numbereJ HR. ROBERTS: Are they? \-lell some are numberGd Mr. Speaker, 123, the way the page is cropped obscures the number, but the next page is 124 therefore, I assume it is 123.

So he said Sir, "look at the estimates that we approved last year and you will not find a single, solitary cent there for it." To repeat it in my own words and not his Sir, he said that we should look at the estimates that were approved by the House last year, and he said that when we did look we would find there no money for DREE. Mr. Speaker, the fact that there is no money in the estimates for the DREE program, no money in the estimates for the year ended - the year 19-69 - 70 which will end in three or four 1Jeeks from now, the end of this month has nothing to do 1-lith the DREE program.

He is quite correct that there is no money in the estimates for the current year. How could there be Mr. Speaker? The DREE program does not begin until April 1st. coming} and that was announc?.d in this House on opening day in behalf of the Government by its leader, by the Premier. The DREE program does not ber.;in until April 1st. Sir, and the money to pay for Newfoundland's share, for there 1•ill be a Ne1•foundland' s share could not be included in the 1969 - 70 estimates.

It could only be included in the 1970 - 71 estimates which in due course l·lill be brought before the House Sir b~ the Government in our request for supply. HR. WELLS : Hhat is oul:" share going to be? :-m. ROBERTS: :1r. Speaker, the hon, gentleman will find out what our share is going to be when the estimates are brought before the House HR. WELLS: Where will we get the money for it? UR. ROBERTS: Hr.

Speaker, the hon. ger,tleman will find out where we get the money,- Our share 1.r.i.ll be included in those estimates Sir, and if this House approves tl1em it '"ill be spent this cowing year by the Government beginning on April 1st. because, :'fr. Speaker our year begins on April 1st. and the estimate.'> for 1969 - 70 by lav could not have money in them for a program that is to begin on April 1st. In other words Sir, the hon. gentleman's statGmcnt Hhich he allegG<i is fact is ~o.· rong.

He as:-ed where are we going to get the :lioncy, .:1nd he said that thGre ,;as nothing in the estimates approved last year. c,;hat has bat to do ;-:i t ~ l the lJREE pro::;ram :lr. Speake/ V ::;-j

in the 1919 - 1920 estimates as tn ·say there is nothing in the 1969-70 estimates, Mr. Speaker, ~my has the hon, gentleman gone wrong? Is it because of a tyrannical Government or are we clutching facts over here? Has he gone wrong because •.;e would not reveal those facts? Has he gone wrong because we are withholding information? I find that hard to understand, Sir. The Premier on the opening day of the Throne Speech debate Wednesday 18th, of this mont~,of February ther first day of the session said that the programme would begin on April 1.

Does the hen. member then really need to question or does he need further information to know that the 1969-70 estimates have got nothing to do with the 1970-71 programme? MR.. ><'ELLS : Well aware 6f it. MR.ROBERTS: He was well a•,;are of it then why did he say what he said. He was for nearly two years MR.WELLS: Would the minister like to know, I will tell him. MR.ROBERTS: He was for nearly two years, MR.l.!ELLS: I will tell him if he would like to know. MR.ROBBRTS: }!r.

Speaker, if I can quote the famous leader that the hon. gentleman is faithfully follm•ing for this week Let me make my speech he has made his ar:.d made more, and more, and mo~e, and more. MR.WELLS: If the minister will propose a question I will answer it. MR.ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, I will answer a question of the hon. gentleman if he wants to ask one. MR.WELLS: Then do not quote a question, MR.ROBERTS: ~r. Speaker, let the hon. gentleman sit and listen , let him listen to the facts. MR.WELLS: Then do not quote a question. MR.ROBERTS: Because he is very careless with the facts, and I have only begun Mr. Speaker.

The hen. gentle~~n has got to learn Mr. Speaker, that when he says a fact is a fact let him make sure a fact is a fact. MR.WELLS: I learned a long time ago, Sir minister MR.ROBERTS: He was nearly two years,/ti1o years a ~~&ar of the Crown and each of those years came before this House with his colleagues, and asked for Supply. That is the duty of the Government, Sir. And he has been for four years, this is his fourth session a member of the House and each of those years the Government have come forth and will come forth shortly again to ask ~oc supply.

Does the hon, gentleman really not know , money for a progaamme, it is going to be drawn from the estimates for t~e year in which the p'ogramme is to start. /OG' o .. -

that is good, that shows H.=.nsard is accurate it shows his other statements have been accurately reported, it is too bad they are not accurately based. Mr. Speaker I have only got two remarks about that statement. The hon. gentleman qutte mo5est disclaim.J that until he spoke nothing has been done. First, if that were true and it is not but if it vere true ~r. Speaker, how in conscience and how can he answer his constituents for having remained for two years as part of an administration that thus shamefully neglected his c4nstituents.

MR.WELLS: That is right. }ffi.ROBERTS: Surely if this administration treated my constituents that way I would not pe part of it not for two minutes. MR.WELBS: I am no longer, the hon. observes correctly. MR.ROBERTS: ~r. Speaker, let the hon. gentleman sit quiet, he is no longer a member of the administration. We know that and we are glad of it, He went on Sir, or let me say one thing