Manitoba Hansard — 30 April 1976 (Sitting 94, 30th Legislature, 3rd Session)

30-3-94

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

THE LEGISlATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 10:00 a. m., Friday, April 30, 1976 Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. INTRODU CTION OF GUEST S MR . SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of 3101 the honourable members to the gallery where we have 30 students Grade 11 standing of the Miles MacDonnell Collegiate. These students are under the direction of Mr. Peters. This school comes from my own constituency of Kildonan. On behalf of all the honour able members, I welcome you here this morning.

Presenting Petitions; Reading and Receiving Petitions; Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees; Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports. The Honourable First Minister. TABLING OF REPORTS HON. EDWARD SCHREYER (Premier) (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I have, because it is rather lengthy, instead of making a statement I would propose for the information of honourable members to lay on the table four copies of the complete set of communique eminating from the Western Premiers Conference which just ended yesterday. MR . SPEAKER: Thank you. Any other ministerial statements or tabling of reports?

The Honourable Minister of Tourism and Recreation. HON. RENE E. TOUPIN (Minister of Tourism, Recreation and CUltural Affairs) (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Annual Report of the Co-operative Promotion Board for the year ending March 31st, 1975. Copies will be made available to members. MR . SPEAKER: Notices of Motion; Introduction of Bills. Questions. The Honourable Member for Morris. ORAL QUESTIONS MR . WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr.

Speaker, I should like to direct my question to the First Minister and ask him, that in the light of the announcement from Ottawa that the price of gasoline would be going up by 25 cents per gallon within the next two years, if he would ntiW be disposed to reconsidering the intention of this government to increase the registration on larger cars. Would he not think now that that 25 cent increase per gallon would be sufficient deterrent to enable them to consider that. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Well, Mr. Speaker, there are three observations I think are relevant.

The first is that the so-called announcement from Ottawa is at most an indication of intent. It is also somewhat futuristic. The decision has not been taken as yet as a decision. There are still one or two conferences on energy pricing that will have to take place. I, for one, do not draw any conclusions today as to what the price will be a year or two from now. So that's one reason for not reconsidering.

The second is, that flowing to some extent from the question raised by the Honourable Member from Portage la Prairie, we find the registration vehicles formula so as to take into account value and age of the heavier vehicles so as to provide for more graduation and lend less abruptness. The third is that to some extent this matter has to do with opulence and not only with energy. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR . SIDNEY SPIVAK Q. C. (River Heights): To the First Minister.

I wonder if he could indicate now whether it is the position of the Provincial Government as a result of the Western Premiers Conference and the communique to agree to a formula which would allow tax points to be provided or abated to the province in exchange for cost-sharing programs in which the Federal Government taxed the full population of

3102 April 30, 1976 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SPIVAK cont'd) ••••. Canada to support programs for this province and others. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. SCHREYER: Mr. Chairman, the matter is a very important one, also a little complicated, but I will attempt in as few words as possible to respond. Basically what is involved here is rather a hard choice between two alternatives. It's not as though either of the two alternatives are that much more attractive than the other.

Fundamentally what the sort of intelligent or hard choice is, is on the question whether there is anything to be gained by a discontinuation of cost-sharing involving two levels of government administration in return for a transfer of corresponding number of tax points. And I must emphasize equalized tax points, equalized to the top, the yield of the top province per capita, or to the average of the top two.

The virtue of the concept of doing it that way is that I think just about all provinces agree, certainly those Ministers of Finance that I've talked to, that this at least will make it possible to some degree for provinces to pursue more cost efficient forms of health care delivery and not continue to be tempted to spend money on the more expensive forms, because the latter is cost-shareable and some of the less costly alternative health care services are not cost-shareable, and to try and deal with that dilemma is the reason for putting forward the idea of discontinuation of cost-sharing in eKchange for a transfer corresponding equalized tax points.

I can't say that there is definite consensus yet but there seems to be a growing one. MR. SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister could indicate whether any studies have been undertaken provincially to indicate that in the next decade there will be sufficient wealth generated to be taxed to be able to provide sufficient moneys to cover the escalation in costs that will occur without Manitoba basically trying to carry on it's programs and have the tax base of Canada to support part of it. MR . S CHREYER: Mr. Speaker, that is precisely the point.

If the transfer of tax points were not on the basis of equalized tax points, then the concerns that are implicit in my honourable friend's question would be real concerns; but if the transferred tax points, assuming they are transferred, are transferred on a formula of equalization to the average of the yield of the top two provinces per capita, per transferred point, then there is a safeguard against the eventuality that my honourable friend is thinking of. Unless of course health costs soar to such an extent that they outrun the yield of the averaged tax points.

But if that happens, Sir, then we will have a problem even if we have a continuation of the federal-provincial cost-sharing. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR . J. WALLY McKENZIE (Roblin): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. I wonder if the Minister can advise us if he has had any· indication of a recent Order-in-Council of the Federal Government increasing the freight rates on rapeseed, meal and the oil. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of In dustry and Commerce. HON. LEONARD s.

EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Brandon East): Yes, Mr. Speaker, as it has been reported in the newspapers, the Federal Government passed an Order-in-Council, I guess a couple of weeks ago, increasing the rates on oil and meal, so much so that it will be detrimental to the crushing i:ridustry in western Canada. MR . McKENZIE: I wonder if the Honourable Minister can advise the Chamber, does this include the raw material, or is it only the processed material? Is it what's processed in the east and shipped back to the west, or just how does it read? MR.

EVANS: The greatest impact will be, from my particular interest point of industrial development, the greatest impact will be to inhibit the manufacture of prod uct from the raw rapeseed, if you wish, and therefore we believe it will be very damag ing to plants both in Alberta and Saskatchewan as well as in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. BEN HANUSCHAK (Minister of Education) (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I regret that I wasn't able to table this report earlier - if I have leave of the House?

April 30, 1976 TABLING OF REPORTS MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister have leave to table? MR . HANUSCHAK: I wish to table the Annual Report of the Public Schools Finance Board for the year ending De cember 31st, 1975. ORAL QUESTIONS cont'd MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. 3103 MR . LLOYD AXWORTHY (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Industry and Commerce - if he's still there; yes, he is - concerning the deliberations at the Western Premiers Conference which I believe he attended.

Can he indicate whether there has been any further progress made in the development of the western economic strategy that he spoke about last year, particularly in terms of the allocation of specific investments, or major economic facilities in the Province of Mani toba, in light of the particular benefits that are now accruing to the Province of Alberta in terms of its own capital position. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR . EVANS: Well, that's a pretty big question, Mr. Speaker.

The fact is that the First Minister did table a communique which does make reference to continuing western economic co-operation. It's obvious that various provinces have particular resource advantages, and one has to recognize this. At the same time there is a determined effort that has been made in the past couple of years by the western govern ments to conduct joint industrial research.

There has been efforts on joint trade promotion activity and we believe that there is a lot of opportunity for co-operation, recognizing that each province has its own specialization, has its own particular attractions, that has to be recognized. MR . AXWORTHY: Well, a supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Again referring to the Minister's position taken last year when he indicated that the Province of Saskat chewan have a steel mill, and the Province of Alberta ••. MR . SPEAKER: Order please. Question please. MR .

AXWORTHY: Could the Minister indicate whether there was any representation made by this government in terms of what particular placement of facilities or manufacturing resource development should take place in Manitoba as part of the economic sharing in the strategy in western Canada. MR . SPEAKER: Order please. I think that question could probably be dealt with better under Industry and Commerce. This could prove to be too lengthy for the question period, unless the Honourable Member has a specific •.• MR . AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I'd be glad to, except that I'd have to wait until next year.

Industry and Commerce is all through this year. Perhaps I can rephrase the question. --(Interject ion)-- Well, waiting is a virtue only for government. Mr. Speaker, perhaps I could rephrase the question and ask, did the Government of Manitoba make any specific representations in terms of what share of the economic progress or benefit is accruing because of the oil wells that might be diverted towards Manitoba as part of this western economic strategy? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. Part of the question was hypothetical • • • MR .

SCHREYER: On a point of order, I believe that your advice as to procedure which you just gave should be well taken, and the question even though re phrased still does come back directly in confrontation with your advice as to procedure. If the matter is that pressing, my honourable friend had the opportunity earlier this week to deal with it in the Estimates of the Department, and the fact that he did not do so suggests that it must be a matter of academic curiosity to my honourable friend. He suggests that he cannot wait. He's a Liberal in a hurry.

It seems to me that Liberals in a hurry were thought of as being CCF. I don't think my honourable friend is. question? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge have another

3104 April 30, 1976 ORAL QUESTIONS MR . AXWORTHY: It's partly a point of privilege, Mr. Speaker. I think that the Premier's remarks are not in keeping because I find it very difficult to be in two places at one time. Even for a Liberal that's diff icult. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR . HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Industry and Commerce. It follows from questions from my colleague for Roblin and that I've now learned that the Minister attended the Western Premiers Conference.

I would like to ask him, did any discussion take place in regards to the seriousness of the increased freight rates on our processed oil products from western Canada as it relates to the unfairness to the companies that operate in eastern Canada? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Industry and Commerce. MR . EVANS: very much so, and I believe the communiques themselves will indicate this. Premier Lougheed as the Chairman of the Conference and being the Premier of the host province made that very clear on behalf of all four premiers on behalf of all four governments, that we were very unhappy.

Now this is a matter, Mr. Speaker, that has gone on for years. I think the first that we've been involved with it was back in 1970. I appeared personally before the Rail Transport Committee in Saskatoon about four years ago and was grilled for over an hour by CPR lawyers, and we've been fighting this for years, but to no avail. We thought we were getting some place with Mr. Marchand, but it seems with new Ministers things do change and I think it's just another indication of the lack of concern by Ottawa with the possibilities of industrialization in western Canada. MR . EINARSON: Mr.

Speaker, then I thank the Minister for that answer. I'd like to ask him then if this government is registering by letter a protest of the unfairness of the increased freight rates on these oil processed products. MR . S:CHREYER: MR . EVANS: That's right. As the Premier is indicating, we have done so, the Premiers have done so jointly, very forthrightly. But I can assure the honourable member that we have been in communication with Ottawa at just about every level for some years over this, including I guess the last time we met with the Federal Minister earlier this year at Edmonton, the matter was raised.

So it's not a matter that has been lying dormant, it's a matter that we've been pursuing very actively, and again at Medicine Hat just a day or two ago. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR . GEORGE HENDERSON (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Highways. Due to the action taken by the Saskatchewan Government in regards to restricting certain carriers on their highways, what is the position of Manitoba at the present time ? MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. PETER BURTNIAK (Minister of Highways) (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, a similar question I believe was asked by the Honourable the House Leader or the Leader of the Opposition Party yesterday, and I took that question as notice. I'm waiting for some information from the Motor Carrier Board on this particular matter. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for River Heights. MR . SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, to the First Minister. I wonder if he can indicate now whether he has replied to the letter of the Prime Minister dealing with the repatriation of the Constitution. MR . SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR . SCHREYER: Mr.

Speaker, the patriation of the Constitution is some thing which our attitude is perhaps summed up best in the Communique No. 5 from the Western Premiers' meeting where it was agreed that issues of patriation and an amending formula are of a national rather than a regional nature. That is why we were prepared to discuss this at the upcoming First Ministers' meeting. We do not attach a great importance to it.

However, it is important that if there is to be change that it be within the context of prudence rather than, for example, allowing our desire for patriation, which we share but which is very mild, to cause us to become too anxious to have this happen, to the point where we agree to an ameirling formula that is too

April 30, 1976 3105 ORAL QUESTIONS (MR. SCHREYER cont'd) • • . . • rigid; and accordingly we shall be exercising restraint at this meeting, not allowing our desire for patriation to cause us to agree to rash overly-rigid formulas. MR . SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, again to the First Minister. Is it his intention to reply to the Prime Minister's letter, or to simply forward the communique of the four Premiers and indicate that that is the reply? MR . SCHREYER: No, Mr. Speaker, the communique is of course already on its way. The reply to the Prime Minister I believe has already been made as well.

But if not, I'll have to check that today, in the forenoon, to see if the letter is on its way. The content of the letter is essentially as I've just verbalized to the honourable member. MR . SPIVAK: I wonder if the First Minister would table the letter in the Assembly. I believe the letter to the Premier was tabled by the Prime Minister in the House of Commons. MR. S CHREYER: Yes, Mr. Speaker . MR . SPEAKER: Thank you. Orders of the Day. The Honourable Attorney General. Oh, sorry, there's an Order for Return. The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. He's out of the room. The Honourable Member for River Heights.

ORDER FOR RETURN MR . SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Arthur, that an Order of the House do issue for a Return showing:

a) The number of people whose tax payment under the Mineral Acreage Tax Act is now in arrears;

b) The number of corporations whose tax payment under the Mineral Acreage Tax is now in arrears;

c) The number of people who have surrendered to the province the title to their mineral rights;

d) The number of corporations that have surrendered to the province the title to their mineral rights;

e) The number of people who have paid their mineral acreage tax;

f) The number of corporations who have paid their mineral acreage tax; and

g) The number of people and corporations, who because of default of payment under The Mineral Acreage Tax Act, have had the title to their mineral rights cancelled. MOTION presented. MR . SP EAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Minister of Agriculture) (Lac du Bonnet): Agreed, Mr. Speaker. MOTION carried. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BILLS - SECOND READINGS MR . SPEAKER: Thank you. Second readings. Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. Bill 37. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR .

BOB BANMAN (La Verendrye): Stand, Mr. Speaker. MR . SPEAKER: Proposed by the Attorney-General, Bill No. 39. The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge.

3106 April 30, 1976 BILL 39 -AN ACT TO AMEND THE FATAL ACCIDENTS ACT AND THE LIMITATION. OF ACTIONS ACT MR . AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, in looking at Bill 39, I was interested in the comments made by the spokesman for the Conservative caucus I find myself in opposition to that position, I. think perhaps based less on the legal technicalities or the observations that he made on the legal profession and more on the practical experience I've had I guess in the past two years having to bring forward I believe three diff erent Private Members Bills dealing with the problems of limitation. And in each of those cases, Mr.

Speaker, the problems that we ran into were not necessarily a consequence of shoddy legal work, but in many cases inadvertence, sometimes bad advice given by friends and relatives and sometimes just Sheer lack of knowledge of the law. I can recall a Private Members Bill I introduced last year on the part of one complainant who had suff ered a traff ic acci dent. He lived in a very small town in rural Manitoba, had not sought legal counsel, and had subsequently experienced injuries that showed up a year or two later, at which time it was too late.

And we had to bring the bill in at that time in order to ensure that that particular person got some protection. I recall particularly, Mr. Speaker, the comments being made at that time by the Member for St. Johns, who said that he was getting concerned, perhaps tired of the fact that we're always having to bring Private Meni>ers Bills into the House to deal with this particular problem of the way the Statute of Limitations Act worked in respect to accidents.

So I would think that the basic principle we should recognize in these amend ments is not whether there has been some shoddiness, I think, was the word used by the Member for Birtle-Russell, but in fact redress to the person who has suffered the problem. I think that should be the principle we should be looking at.

And I don't think we're going to be able to correct the misdeed at times of certain members of the legal profession, if indeed there is such, but we should be more concerned that there are people who get themselves caught in unfortunate circumstances in which they are not able to get proper compensation for accidents or any return because of their lack of know ledge of the law or because of bad advice. I know that having gone through three bills of this kind and looking at each of these cases very individually, you realize that there was extenuating circumstances in each of them. And it would be my belief, Mr.

Speaker, that this particular bill would substantially make improvements in that problem and would probably eliminate some of the requirements for members of the Legislature to be bringing in Private Members Bills and going through fairly, not necessarily overly complicated but time consuming procedure, in order to gain redress for certain people who have suff ered accidents or, in fact in some cases, fatalities. So I would say, Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of our group, that our position is that we would support the recommendation, the amendments made by the Attorney-General, in this case_, of first trying to standardize the legislation, to raise the Statute of Limitations up to two years. But we would also like to suggest that there is room for other improvements. And I would suggest that the Member from St. Johns, in the comments he made last year both in this Chamber and in Committee, made several interesting recommendations that should be looked at in terms of dealing with th is whole problem of a statute of limitations.

And while I'm sure that there was some consultation going on, I was a little surprised to find that some of his concerns weren't expressed in this legislation. But that's not by way of criticism. I'm just simply saying that, as a lawyer, he understands that particular problem much better than I do and had comments which I thought made sense at the time. But the argument that he and I had last year was that, while his arguments made sense, the existing legislation still worked in a prejudicial way against certain people, and that we must be concerned about that.

So I think that this legislation, by exteming the time limit to some degree and by making the legislation more uniform, will go some way to correcting some of those problems, at least to a two-year basis. I'm sure we're still going to run i:iJ.to some problems with it. I think that there may be people who will find that they have not been able to take legal redress even within the two-year period, and may have to go further in that. And that is the case where I think that some of the recommendations made by

April 30, 1976 3107 BILL 39 (MR. AXWORTHY cont'd) .••.• the Member for St. Johns might be taken into account because I believe that that time he had some suggestions to make. So, Mr. Speaker, we support the amendments in this bill. We support them on the basis that I think it makes more sense to try to correct problems run into by the odd individual as opposed to using it as a way of getting back at the legal profession. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General shall be closing debate. The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. HOWARD PAWLEY (Attorney-General)(Eelkirk): Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate very much the remarks by both the Honourable Members for Birtle-Russell and for Fort Rouge and I want to indicate to the House just what some general concern is on my part on weighing possible amendments to this legislation.

First, I think insofar as the general principle feeling with the issue of broaden ing Statute of Limitations, one generally has to weigh liberties as against protection of property, and if one proceeds too far insofar as extention of Statute of Limitations then there is always that danger, that someone will launch proceedings many many years after an incident has occurred, when in fact witnesses have disappeared, memories have be come faulty.

On the other hand, if the limitation period is too short, then in fact we run into the difficulty of property being protected unreasonably as against the liberty of an individual to attempt to acquire redress because of negligence or some other factor which has occurred. Now the issue with which we have to come to grips with here is whether or not beyond what we are doing. I think that what we are doing is necessary because last year we did enlarge the Statute of Limitations period insofar as negligence, accidents relating to injury from one year to two.

We didn't extend that Statute of Limitation period insofar as accidents which resulted in death. This should be consistent. It is a fact that we do have some errors that have been committed during the last year by, Mr. Speaker, mem bers of that noblest of professions in the Province of Manitoba, the legal profession. --(Interjection)-- The potato farmer is heckling me here -- in which there was a neglect apparently to launch the proceedings within the required time.

And in dealing with this, I think we have to decide whether or not to advise the particular lawyers to come for ward with Private Members Bills dealing with the particular situation, or to do as sug gested by the Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell, to simply make it retroactive.

Now in support of making it retroactive is the fact that it might be argued that the Legis lature may have in some very small way contributed to the confusion by having enlarged the Statute of Limitation period insofar as injuries were concerned, but not having touched it insofar as death was concerned, so a lawyer might argue that in fact he was confused to some extent. I don't think that is an excuse, but it comes by way of explanation.

One worries, however, about making this type of legislation retroactive and I have requested as much information as I can obtain from the Minister for A utopac as to the particular circumstances. I want to give you some of the concerns which I'm trying to weigh now, so that one can see it's not entirely a black and white matter on making it retroactive. There is, as one knows, always a limitation insofar as the amount that one is able to recover insofar as third party liability, the coverage is concerned under an insurance policy.

Now I'm not dealing with a particular case, I'm dealing now with the issue in general. If a limitation period is $50, 000 and the amount of the potential claim which was not launched within time, say with $75, 000, then somebody is short $25,000 over and above what the insurance company is responsible for paying.

Now if we do in fact make it retroactive in that type of situation, if we make this legislation retroactive, then we do in fact get the lawyer off the hook, but the innocent motorist is back on the hook - not the innocent motorist, the responsible motorist for the accident, but who is now protected as against .suit because of the passage of limitation period finds that he is now potentially in the position of having a suit which might result in his being required to pay money over and above that amount which is included within his insurance policy.

So I'm trying to weigh, before we arrive at Committee, whether or not there is in fact a third party here, a motorist, that we might in fact substitute the anguish which presently exists with the lawyer if we make it retroactive. So I think that's one of the concerns that one must have in making a general issue of retroactivity without dealing

3108 April 30, 1976 BILL 39 (MR. PAWLEY cont'd) ••••• with a specific matter before us. The other thing which I would like to say, is that I think there has been too many incidents, I'm not just referring here, but too many incidents of negligence insofar as different fields of the law are concerned. I think the Law Society should examine whether or not all members of the Law Society should be required to take so many hours each year of continuing legal education.

We now have continuing legal education, that course is optional to lawyers, but the result is that often it's those lawyers that probably least require continuing legal education conscientiously proceed to take that course, while other lawyers that should be refreshed insofar as their knowledge of the law pertaining to negligence actions, municipal law, etc., fail to take that course, with the resulting harm that can sometimes result to their clients because they have not kept themselves updated in respect to the law.

I just mention that because it seems to me that this is the type of instance where probably continuing legal education would be beneficial. I've heard lawyers say, well, we weren't aware that actions in respect to death - I can't imagine it because any practicing lawyer ought to be aware - but there are lawyers in this province who will claim that thev rlidn't take certain action because they thiDught that action should have been commenced under a diff erent statute, another statute.

For instance, in a death claim, that we thought the action should have been commenced under the Trus tee Act rather than under the Fatalities Act. Well maybe a little refresher course, a continuing legal education course in respect to insurance law would benefit that type of lawyer that hasn't kept himself updated and refreshed insofar as the course of law, and I think that lawyers in general, the Law Society, owe it to the public to ensure that their membership is kept refreshed and updated insofar as the development of the law in the Province of Manitoba in the passage of new legislation.

So we'll have to tangle with this question, whether we make it retroactive for one year to provide an umbrella to all in cidents, and we only know of specific instances now, but there may be others that might rear their heads for all that I know, that haven't yet come forward indicating that there has been negligence. On the other hand, we might very well decide to go the other route.

Even though the Private Members' time is out, I think we could, I'm sure in agreement, per mit the Members to come forward by way of a Private Members Statute Bill to try to extend the Statute of Limitation period insofar as their particular claims are concerned. I will be helped when I have obtained some further information that I've requested from the Minister responsible for Autopac as to the recommendation I will make to the Com mittee, but I want to share with members at this point some of the concerns which I have the pros and cons of the issue. QUESTION put, MOTION carried. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR.

SPEAKER: Before we proceed I should like to direct the attention of the Honourable Members to the gallery, where we have 65 students from the Teulon Collegiate of Grade XI standing, under the direction of Mr. Master, Reinsch, and Revel. This group is from the constituency of the Honourable Member for Gimli. Now we also have just arrived 60 students of Grade XI standing of the W.C. Miller Collegiate, under the direction of Messrs. Wiebe, Doell, Reimer and Schmidt. This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Rhineland.

On behalf of all the Honourable Members I welcome you here this morning. Bill No. 47 proposed by the Honourable Minister of Highways. The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. (Stand) Bill No. 51, proposed by the Attorney-General. The Honourable Member for Gladstone. (Stand) Bill No. 52 proposed by the Honourable Attorney-General. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. (Stand) Bill No. 53 pro posed by the Attorney-General. The Honourable Member for Birtle-Russell. (Stand) The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR . USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Education that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

April 30, 1976 3109 BILL 39 MOTION presented and carried, and the House resolved itself into Committee of Supply, with the Honourable Member for Logan in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Logan. COMM ITTEE OF SUPPLY -E DUCATION MR. CHAIRMAN: I would refer honourable members to turn to page 19 of their Estimates Book, Resolution 47, Evaluation, Research and Policy Analysis (

a) Salaries $214, 600--pass. The Honourable Member for Brandon-West. MR. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon-West): Mr. Chairman, I'm comparing the amounts shown under the Estimates this year as having been voted last year on this item, and there seems to be quite a change. I imagine the Minister will be able to explain what changes have been made. Last year we called this particular section, Planning and Research, and I note this year that the Minister has retitled it Evaluation, Research and Policy Analysis. I recall the debate, Mr.

Chairman, on this item I think fairly well, because it was the one appropriation that we voted against on this side, and the amount was $1.7 million. The Minister now shows as having been appropriated last year, $434, 000. I wonder if he could explain the difference. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman --(Interjection)-- No, no it's quite all right, I'm prepared to answer the honourable member's question, in the event that the Honourable Member for Lakeside should have any doubts. As a matter of fact it's get ting quite late in the morning. --(Interjection)-- Right. Exactly.

The Honourable Member for Brandon-West asks two basic questions, one to explain the change in the appropriation, and the second he notices a difference in the title that is given to this particular appropriation. It's not merely a difference in the title but also a variation or a change in the specific function, the role and function of what takes place under this particular appropriation.

I would just like to take a few minutes of the Commi ttee's time to give a very brief and a quick overview of the pro grams that come under Evaluation, Research and Policy Analysis, and I think that that in turn should make any subsequent discussion, when we get into the details of it, more meaningful, into the details of the various programs. To start off then, Mr. Chairman, I would like to indicate that the activities of the Branch are structured so as to be consistent with and supportive of the provincial goals of education.

That is, being mindful of the four main goals, equality of educational opportuni ty, a comprehensive system of education, a system responsive to the individual in society, a system responsive to the community. And with these goals in mind the activities can be described as falling into three broad categories: 1) Research and analysis activities; 2) Consultative services and, including in that, planning assistance; and 3) Action research, special projects. I will explain each of these in my introductory com ments, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to point out that these are, however, not mutually exclusive cate gories. For example, in internal research, activity could result in a recommendation for program development, consultative assistance to a school division, or it may lead to the initiation of a specific project. In all cases a communication network is maintained for informa tion and input from all branches involved in related areas. Now I would like to look at each of the three areas of activity separately. Firstly, research and analysis.

Ongoing analysis of various components of the education al system with reference to the overall goals of education in the province is conducted in order to determine those areas of need which are amenable to direct action by my department. For example, and I could give the Committee half a dozen examples.

The Branch is sponsoring a number of research efforts that deal with educational and ad ministrative concerns expressed by teachers, principals, superintendents, and trustees, and these include papers dealing with student dropouts, testing, declining enrolments, patterns of school decision-making, and so forth. Another area of activity under research and analysis, program requirements to ensure equitable educational opportunities to identifiable segments of the Manitoba

3110 April 30, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) ••••• community, .that is, small rural communities. Mr. Chairman, you will no doubt recall my having announced earlier during this session an increase in grants to assist smaller communities, inner city areas, native children, children with special needs. The third policy analysis is provided concerning educational development and programming in the school system. Recommendations and policy modification are pro vided to senior levels of government. And within this particular area the Branch is also involved in studies in areas of critical concern.

For example, a careful examination of criterion reference tests will be undertaken with the view of assessing their potential value. The Branch also placed a major emphasis on gathering, critiquing and making available to educators the results of current research on topics of interest. Fifth - Unique school situations requiring departmental response, requiring response consistent with provincial policy. For example, student follow-up studies, parent interviews. Sixth - The Branch has developed a framework for evaluation activities for use at the provincial and school division, community and program levels.

And there's close co-operation with various educational organizations in examining these specific school programs for effectiveness. This Mr. Chairman, is the manner in which my department operates in all its branches, and I'm very pleased with the co-operation that we have been receiving from the Teachers Society and the Trustees Association and other groups, school boards with whom we're working. The second broad category of activity you will recall, Mr. Chairman, that I've mentioned earlier, consultative services, planning assistance. Our Urban Education Program falls under this category.

Planning is proceeding with the Winnipeg School Division to develop community input and involvement in school programs, with innovations in programs responsive to local community needs in the inner city of Winnipeg. A de velopment incentive program is being proposed to assist rural divisions and northern districts to identify, priorize and solve problems that they are facing. And thirdly --(Interjection)-- I appreciate, Mr.

Chairman, that to the Honour able Member for Lakeside the concept of priorization probably has no meaning at all, because I'm sure that that exercise was entirely foreign to the previous government. There was a system of priorization they used, and that's the 18-point pre-election for mula --(Interjection)-- the 18 point pre-election formula is the only system of prioriza tion known to the Honourable Member for Lakeside. --(Interjection)-- and strangely enough, you will recall, Mr. Chairman, how neatly everything fell into place. Continuing then, Mr. Chairman.

As I've mentioned, the assistance to north ern districts, rural divisions, and also in conjunction with other branches of the depart ment assistance is provided to facilitate the development and implementation of a variety of program options. An example of this is the branch activities related to the new credit system which encourages schools, the school and the student initiative courses. The third general area of activity could be titled "Action Research, Special Projects." These are projects monitored by my Branch or operated by a member on my staff. There are about eight.

One is the Headstart Program which serves six rural and remote native communities, and it provides an early childhood enrichment program and toy and book lending libraries. These provide educational experience for pre-school ers who would not otherwise be exposed to these kinds of experiences and opportunities. During 1975 to 1976 the program was transferred to the Native Education Branch. The School Milk Program provides milk or other nutritional supplements to those children in northern communities who do not receive a complete diet in their regular meals.

Local nutrition advisers are trained to teach families in these communi ties how to achieve a proper diet, and this program was tested, tried out by my depart ment and found to be operating successfully and now it's built into the general operations of Frontier School Division. The School Nutrition Program. In association with the Winnipeg School Division this program provides a hot breakfast or lunch to children in 20 inner city schools. Whether it's a breakfast or lunch, that is at the option of the school and the teachers

April 30 , 1976 3111 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) • • • • • and parents within it. The Branch is also involved in the evaluation of this program. The Volunteers Program provides co-ordination and assistance to schools in terested in developing a Volunteers Program in their community. The Schools for Urban Neighborhoods Program. It operates in two Winnipeg and one Brandon neighborhood.

The goals of the SUN program is to provide - which is the common expression used, the title of that program being its initials - is to provide formal and informal learn ing opportunities responsive to needs defined by citizens of the neighborhood and to enhance the role of the local elementary school as a focal point of contact between the neighborhood and the educational system. The Immigrant Pilot Project has been initiated to facilitate the entry of recently arrived immigrants and their children to the school system and to determine appropriate curriculum and teaching methods for specific immigrant groups.

The Community Assessment Program, a program designed to develop community involvement and a decision-making process of the school around such issues as financing, school policy, curriculum and hiring of auxiliary personnel. And the eighth, a pilot project for migrants has been initiated to develop supports and a curriculum that is based on skill rather than grade achievement measurements, and to assist in the transition from northern to urban living. Now as I indicated last night, Mr.

Chairman, on these programs in particular, I'd be most anxious to hear comments from the honourable members of the opposite side of the House. You know, we've spent close to nine hours on administration. We're now dealing with some of the specifics of the operations of the Department of Education and I would be most anxious to hear, Mr. Chairman, from the honourable members of the of ficial opposition their response to these programs and to others.

Again, as I did in dicate last night, their leader is training the guns of their party on the government - well, I really would like to know what it is that the opposition is shooting at or attempting to shoot down. I would like to know which of the experiments in education it is that the opposition feel are of no value. I would like to know what it is that the Department of Education is doing that if the opposition were to become the government - which I doubt very much by their Leader's very own admission when he was speaking to his own members and he predicts disaster ahead.

I can't interpret that headline in any other fashion than applying to their membership, the 1,4 00 who attended some --(Interjection)-- oh, there were 1,4 00 strong, it says. And predicting disaster ahead. As I said previously, speaking to the Tories, I presume that the Leader was speaking to his faithful and he's saying to them, "Look fellows, if we do not defeat the New Democrats come the next election, we're finished, we the PCs are finished." That's the way the headline reads. --(Interjection)-- I couldn't agree with the Honourable Member for Lakeside more, that the PCs are finished for mankind.

So from time to time, Mr. Chairman, you can see, we do agree, we do agree. Rarely, but on occasion we do. I really would like to know because, you know, their Leader did indicate that the Conservative Party does not stand for dismantling government for tearing apart all the services and programs ·of gov ernments over the years which have been established to help people and he did not exclude programs established by this government. So I am assuming that what he is really saying is, that there are some programs of this government that their Leader would endorse, that their Leader would like to see continue.

So I would like to know during the course of this debate which of the programs of this department that the Conservative Party would advo cate the discontinuance of, the termination of, and which it would endorse. The honourable member asked for an explanation in the appropriation. The amount shown in last year's Estimates, it is true, was in the order of $1. 7 million. What had happened, Mr.

Chairman, is that as the programs were developed, because when they were within Planning and Research last year they were there on a pilot basis, on an experimental basis, and then having run their course as pilot projects, what happened is that there were either those that were successful, were transferred either into the de partment or elsewhere within the education system and built into the regular ongoing

3112 April 30, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) .•••• program. The transfer-outs during the year totalled to $947,500. For example, and I'm sure that the Honourable Member for Brandon-West caught that when I mentioned it earlier, that the School Milk Program was transferred to Frontier School Division, that's $286,000, as part of the Frontier School Division's op erations. The School Nutrition, $180, 000, is transferred to Financial Support because a grant is paid to the Winnipeg School Division for the operation of that program as part of its grants.

The Schools for Urban Neighborhoods, the same thing there, it goes to Financial Support under (3)(f), so we will have an opportunity to deal with that there. I'm giving the identification of the transfers to assist the honourable members in debate to avoid duplication; School Nutrition under 21(3)(a); Schools for Urban Neighborhoods under 21 (3)(f).

Schools for Urban Neighborhoods was $50, 000; $25,000 Miscellaneous Grants which, if honourable members wish at a later point in time during the debate I'll be able to - I do not have an itemized list right at my fingertips, it's probably in my Estimates Book which will take me a minute or so to find, perhaps less than that. That was $25,000 that is transferred to (3)(

c) as is noted on this page of our Estimates. And there was a similar transfer, Headstart to Native Education. The Rural Educational A lternativeE Program, $275,000, which is discontinued. But the honourable member will recall in in troducing this item I did make mention of the fact that under Financial Support we will be dealing with the alternative grant structure that is being proposed now to assist school divisions with smaller schools.

Then there are $36,000, the High School Implementation Student Initiative Courses, School Initiative Programs, classroom arts and that has gone to 21(5), Program Development and Support Services. Miscellaneous Grants, Inner City Programs, Winnipeg School Division No. 1, that's $15,000 and $10,000 by way of grants to university professors for various research projects that they may undertake from time to time and those would probably range in the order of $200 or $300 per research pro ject. So after the transfers occurring during the fiscal year, Mr.

Chairman, the 947.5 thousand-dollar transfers, that gives you the total amount that was shown in the appropriation. And then, the present year's figure that we see before us of $625, 000, that's the sum total of the various programs that I have listed in my opening remarks which I'll be able to explain as we go through them or deal with in whatever fashion that honourable members may wish. MR. CHAffiMAN: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Chairman, the Minister of Education invited members on this side of the House to rise and to ask him what it is that we on this side of the House find that the government are not doing or what they should be doing. Well I tell the Minister very simply that in the light of the performance that we have just received from him, in response to legitimacies and a simple question posed by the Member for Brandon-West on this side of the House, the Minister could not even undertake to respond to that question without reading from that prepared text that he has in front of him and is continuously reading from.

Whether the prepared text bears any relationship to the ques tion or not, doesn't make any difference, he just simply reads from it. You know, if there's anything we object, and I'll tell the Minister frankly now about performance on that side of the House, is the Charlie McCarthy performance that he's putting on right now, their complete inability to answer one single question honestly and sincerely without reading from a text.

Why doesn't he sit on somebody's knee and allow the Deputy Minister to be the Edgar Bergen for him and he can continue to be the Charlie McCarthy, because that's all he's doing right now. If the Minister wants to know what it is we object about his performance is the broken fly-wheel attitude of this govern ment unco-ordinated, mentally and physically, not one part knowing what the other is doing. The Minister is not giving his own ideas, and that's really what this place is all about, is the Minister give his answers and his ideas to this House. Why doesn't he start doing that?

Why doesn't he give us his views on education, the government's at titude on education, instead of somebody else's? What we're looking for from this s

April 30, 1976 3113 SUPPLY -E DUCATION (MR. JORGENSON cont'd) • • • • • government is a little bit of leadership, some re sponse to questions that are posed legitimately in seeking info rmation, so that we lmow what this government is doing. He continues to ask on this side of the House what the opposition want to lmow of this government, and yet when the legitimate questions are posed, what do we get? That gobbledegook that he's been reading from that means ab solutely nothing. In fact, if one were to check the record, you'd find it was a thing kind of a text that he read from last year.

We get the repetition of that same thing year in and year out, year after year. What we're looking from the Minister is a little bit of responsibility, answers to the questions that are posed on this side of the House. Never mind what we think about how education should be run. We're asking the questions, your responsibility is to answer them. And what we'd like to see, is that the Minister re sponds to those questions in a way that makes sense to begin with and that deals with the questions that are asked. Not the gobbledegook that he is feeding us on this side of the House.

If the Minister thinks for one minute that he's going to eat up the hours and thereby avoid questioning, he's got another think coming, because we have a different set of rules. The Minister doesn't lmow that we're operating under a new set of rules, he should realize it now and start answering the questions that are being posed in this House so that we can get the answers and lmow what the government are doing in education. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR.

HANUSCHAK: You lmow, the Honourable Member for Morris takes great pride and pleasure in getting off his rear and just making a lot of noice. A lot of noice that doesn't mean a • • • --(Interjection)-- that doesn't mean, a five-letter word, doesn't mean a thing. I think of some four-letter words, rll keep it a five -letter word. --(In terjection)-- Not a bit, not a bit. You lmow, I do regret, Mr.

Chairman, that the Honourable Member for Morris did not listen to the opening statement that I made when I was speaking just before he took the floor to relieve himself of all the gobbledegook that we were listening to for the past while. I did indicate to the honourable member, and it's regrettable that either he chose not to listen or was unable to understand, so therefore I will repeat again. And that's what teaching is all about, that in teaching one often does have to repeat and repeat and repeat.

And this we've found on the government side that we have to do to the gang over on that side, we do have to repeat. And there's much that we're proud of repeating, and if they still won't understand we'll continue repeating.

I did indicate to the members in answering the two questions that the Honourable Member for Brandon-West posed to me, in view of the fact that there has been some very significant changes in the programs that are being operated and delivered by Planning and Research, that to put the debate in its proper perspective to avoid duplication, that there fore I wanted to take the time of the Committee to explain and outline the operations of the Branch before we get down to specifics. The Honourable Member for Brandon-West didn't understand that. Now perhaps he still doesn't understand it.

If he doesn't under stand it, Mr. Chairman, I will repeat it as often as the rules of the House may allow me to do so. So that was what I did. Then I proceeded to give the comparison of the op erations of the Branch between what was shown in the Estimates Book last year and what appears in the Estimates Book for the forthcoming year - with those introductory com ments, hopefully to enable, and obviously I have not succeeded, Mr. Chairman, in enabl ing the opposition to deal with the Estimates in a more meaningful fashion. It is regret table.

That was the purpose of my introductory remarks, to assist the opposition. The Honourable Member for Morris appears to be telling us that the description of the operations of my Branch doesn't mean anything to him. He doesn't understand that. The financial comparison that I gave apparently means nothing to him. Well if it means nothing to him, I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman. I feel that I have done all that I could do to assist the opposition in dealing with the Estimates.

I can offer them no more assistance, and if they still feel incapable of handling or dealing with the Estimates in an effective manner, then I suppose they would have to seek assistance elsewhere. I am unable to offer it to them. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Brandon-West.

3114 April 30, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, when we began this debate about 30 minutes ago, my question to the Mini ster was , why the diffe rence between the amount voted last year for Planning and Research of $1, 706, 000 and the amount. which is stated in this year's Estimates as having been voted last year of $434, 300. And the Minister did in his concluding remarks give us some figures, and I understood from him that the transfers out were $94 7, 500. The Minister can simply aclmowledge that by nodding in the affirma tive if I copied his figure down correctly. Well I take it, Mr.

Chairman, that the total amount transferred out was $947, 500. Now by my arithmetic, if you subtract the transfers out from the amount that was shown and voted last year, the difference is $758, 500. But the Esti mates show $434, 300, and that still leaves $324, 000 somewhere to account for. So, Mr. Chairman, the explanation given by the Minister was detailed but arithmetically as I have it, it doesn't check out. I wonder if he could tell me where I'm making an error in this cal culation. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Educati on. MR. HANUSCHAK: No, Mr.

Chairman, the Honourable Member for Brandon West is not making an error. Those were the transfers out of programs, but last year Native Education was under Pl anning and Research and now the major portion of it is , as it 's shown under 21(4), which was $290, 000. So now out of the $947. 5 thousand, if the honourable member is still concerned about the difference to $34, 000, I will recheck my figures , because in giving them to the honourable members some are rounded off to the nearest $5, 000 or to the nearest $1, 000, and that's possibly where the two and a fraction or three percent error is.

But if the honourable member wishes each and every dollar to be accounted for, I could go through his again and provide him with an exact reconciliation of the two. But that's the difference, you lmow, plus the error that may arise as a result of rounding off figures. MR. McGILL: Then, Mr. Chairman, what the Minister is now saying is that $947, 500 is not the total of transfers out, there's another $290 ,0 00 transferred out? That would leave to be accounted for a difference of $34, 200, which is what he says is rounding out figures, I presume. I think we should possibly get a little closer than that, Mr.

Chairman, but I will leave that item with the Minister and perhaps we can have some further explanations. We did get a very detailed account of various programs undertaken in this branch of the department. What I would be interested in asking the Minister now is , what is the organizational arrangement for evaluating the results of these pt:ograms?

I understand from the list given by the Ministe r, the number and variety of the programs, I presume that when you undertake a program you also set up some way of lmowing whether the program is any good or not, and then an evaluation of the whole operation is presented to the Minister and presumably is available. Could the Minister tell us speci fically what results of these programs that he's given us are being evaluated by his de partment? MR. HANUSCHAK: If I understand the honourable member's question, his question was , what results of these programs are being evaluated?

No. 2, his first question was , what arrangement is made for evaluation of programs? Well, what re sults are evaluated ? All results of the program are evaluated. I think the answer to that question is quite evident. I'm not aware of any result of any program that we would overlook, the arrangement for the evaluation of programs depending on the nature of the program, but by and large it's an in ternal and external evaluation.

In most of these programs there is involvement of a school division or a number of school divisio ns, so the evaluation may be a joint one by ourselves and the participating division or divisions . In the event of some, for example, the Community As sistance Program, the process of evaluation is conducted by the community and by the school division and our Branch. The Nutrition Program on the other hand, in addition to an internal evaluation there is also an evaluation being conducted by an external evaluator. So it varies from program to program.

Th ose, I suppose somewhat broader in size, in whatever fashion one would want to measure them in, either the number of persons involved or affected

April 30, 1976 3115 SUPP LY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) ••••• by the program, the cost, whatever, we may have an external evaluator in addition to an internal and others through a combination, and some strictly internally, others a combination of internal-external. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, then does the department have an organization set up specifically for the purpose of evaluation of programs and do they report regularly to the Minister? MR. HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, within the operation of this Branch there are staff who are assign ed to particular programs, and it is their responsibility to monitor and evaluate the program. So one staff person may be responsible for one, another for another; or another couple of programs, and so forth. But there are, yes, there are definite staff assig ned for that purpose, for the monitoring and evaluation of the programs. MR. McGILL: Mr. Chairman, the Minister gave us a list of his activities and programs.

I wonder if he could tell us now which of these programs, which specific programs, he would say are aimed at decreasing inequality and educational opportunity. It would be difficult to know from the explanations and titles that he's given which of these are directed definitely in that program. I notice that under Evaluation Research and Policy Analysis the activities are aimed at decreasing inequality in educational opportunity. I'd like to hear from the Min ister which one specifically he would feel come into that. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr.

Chairman, all of the programs are aimed at reducing inequality in educational opportunity. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 47(b)(l). The Honourable Member for Roblin. Order pleas e. I think I stated a while ago I have instructed the recording transcriber that no one will be on the microphone before they're recognized by the Chair. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE : Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I'd like to be a little more specific with the Honourable Minister when we're talking about equal edu cation across this province; and I will use as a classic example Duck Mountain School Division.

I hope that the Minister in his Estimates will give me something more specific than he's offered here in this questioning in the last couple of minutes, because I happen to be the member representing that constituency and know some of the serious problems and the difficulties that the Board and the students are facing in Duck Mountain School Division. As an example, Mr. Chairman, basically the only playground equipment that I can find at the Camperville School in the winter months is snowballs , that' s about all they have to offer for entertaining themselves during their recess and that.

So I wonder if the Minister in his own mind and the government in their own mind, are satisfied that those children at that school division have an equal opportunity to the students who reside in the greater Winnipeg area. The problem is a long standing one, it's not easy to re solve, but surely the Minister can give me more sensible answers I can take back to the Board and the students that reside in that constituency than the answer he has just given us this past moment. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Education. MR.

HANUSCHAK: I'm glad to hear the Honourable Member for Roblin partici pate in this debate. Insofar as the needs of Duck Mountain School Division are concerned, much has been done to assist them in meeting their needs, and I do hope that the honour able member will be in this Committee throughout the consideration of the Estimates be cause much of what has been done for Duck Mountain appears in various portions of the Estimates .

A lot appears in Financial Support; a lot appears under Program Develop ment and Support Services in terms of the expansion of the Child Development Services within the program on a co -<>perative basis together with Turtle River School Division to the southeast of it. In addition to that, in an attempt to reduce inequalities in educational opportunity, the honourable member I'm sure is aware or should be aware of the fact that we have been offering the school division financial assistance in the funding of teacher aides for Camperville School.

We have assisted it in the conduct of an internal-external evaluation

3116 April 30, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MRo HANUSCHAK cont'd) • • of their education program. In fact, if honourable members wish, I could do one of two things. There's a very interesting report of Duck Mountain School Division, internal and external evaluation done in co-operation with the school division, reporting on hundreds of parent-student interviews, teacher interviews and so forth in an attempt to evaluate the school system, in an attempt to identify com munity needs.

When the Honourable Member for Roblin speaks of equality of educational op J?Ortunity, when he attempts to suggest that the education program offered within the school divisions in his constituency ought to offer something more than they presently do offer, really, Mr. Chairman, I must ask him what it is specifically that he would want to see offered within his division that is not being offered, because I have a problem in under standing the honourable member, what he really means.

Because their Leader speaks of some kind of hare-brained experiments, which they have not identified, that have been initiated by us. So I wouldn't want to saddle him with a hare-brained experiment that he wouldn't want because he, as their member no doubt I would hope, knows what is sensitive to the needs of his community, is sensitive to the educational needs of his community. So therefore it becomes very necessary for me, Mr.

Chairman, to know with a greater measure of precision what it is exactly that the Honourable Member for Roblin feels that his people require or need, because I wouldn't want to give him some thing for which he'll criticize me tomorrow. I wouldn't want to do that. So I really would appreciate it if the Honourable Member for Roblin would be somewhat more pre cise. After all, he's their member, he's there more frequently than I am. I'd like to be there more frequently than I am but I have the entire Province of Manitoba to con cern myself with, he has one riding. MR. McKENZIE : Well, Mr.

Chairman, I will do exactly that for the Minister, and it's too bad that this Minister hasn't taken the time or seen fit to go out and take a look at what's going on in some of these school divisions. I'll read exactly from the comments of the Superintendent of the School Division to try and prove again to this Minister what I'm asking about, is there a chance for a child to have an equal opportun ity for an education in some parts of Duck Mountain School Division comparing it to some of the other divisions in the city or Brandon or wherever you want.

I'll just read the Superintendent's comments again for the Honourable Minister and I hope he'll put it into the record. He says: "And finally an exploration of ways and means to provide play ground equipment for Camperville which is presently languishing in a condition which denies any form of play for the children except snowballs." Now if that is, in the Min ister's opinion, an equal opportunity for children in Camperville which happens to be part of Duck Mountain School Division, then that's fine. But not in my books, that's not equal opportunity for children across this province.

And if the Minister wants more information, we can bring it. MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, if we're going to use snowballs as a basis for comparison of equality of educational opportunity, you know, having been to Church ill a week ago, the children in Churchill can today enjoy a snowball fight which the children in Winnipeg cannot enjoy today. So, you know, there's inequality of education al opportunity in reverse.

I hope that the constituents in Roblin will read today's issue of Hansard and hear their member's contribution to this debate; that when I asked him what are the educational needs of his constituents, he spoke of inadequate or insufficient recreational equipment or facilities at Camperville, that some piece of equipment was broken down and therefore the children had to resort to throwing snowballs . Well, I'm not sure whether that is all that bad per se, but that's the extent of his familiarity with the edu cation program in Turtle River School Division.

I think that the hOnourable member would want to know what his people have to say about the education program in Duck Mountain School Division. And when the honourable member says that I should go there - yes, Mr. Chairman, I have been there, in fact I was there a few months ago and spent a couple of days within his riding. He probably wouldn't know because - I'm sure that you know, Mr.

Chairman, that the Duck Mountain School Division is the north part of Roblin constituency, so I'm not quite sure how often their member would take the time to go into the northern part of his consti1nency to visit the people there. But I have been there

April 30, 1976 3117 SUPPLY - EDUCATI ON (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) • • • and I have spent time with people in the community, and I have spent time with the Superintendent and with the teachers and with the students working who are engaged in the teacher-training program- a field -based teacher-training program that is in progress over there which I wish, Mr. Chairman, that I could take the time of this House today to explain, because I do feel that it's very very successful, but I know that you will not allow me because that comes under Colleges and Universities Affairs.

So I'm waiting for the opportunity to get to the Estimates of my other department, at which time I'll be able to explain, and with great pride I might add, Mr. Chairman, our field-based teacher-training programs that this government has initiated, this government. I'm still no wiser than I was insofar as hearing an expression of the honourable mem ber's educational needs for Duck Mountain School Division, becaus e apparently he has some thing that he read from which indicates the Superintendent's concern about the lack of some recreational equipment and facilities at Camperville School.

I would like to tell the honourable member what the teachers and the parents and the entire community, not just limiting the in terviews to parents of children, but including those that may not have children in the school, that thE)y too are · interested in the educational program - those living in Duck Mountain School division are very much interested in the education program offered within the schools in their divisions which they assist in supporting. So I will start, and I can start in any order, but this is the way that it is laid out: The response from the teachers .

The question was : ''Do you feel that the students are (

a) getting a better education than you did? Are not getting as good an education as you did? Are getting about as good an education as you did? " And this is comparing the education pro gram of one generation with another. And to the Honourable Member for Sturgeon Creek who again is speaking in the manner and from the position of which he is accustomed to and enjoys doing from his Seat --(Interjection)-- I know the honourable member's heard that before, be cause that is the manner in which he normally speaks in this House, so of course he's heard that before and he will hear it again as long as he continues behaving in that fashion. So the response was this, to (

a) Getting a better education, 63 percent; not as good an education, 14; as good, 23. 86 percent feel that the education program is superior today. How do the parents feel about it? Perhaps the teachers were a bit more modest in their response. The parents, 80 percent feel that the education program is better and 11 percent as good as , over 90 percent. A random sampling of the community, again 78 percent better than/or as good as .

So I must say that the Honourable Member for Roblin did not offer me that much as sistance in identifying, and I will take the concern of the Honourable Member for Roblin under advisement, and see whether there was - perhaps that was the manner in which the school div ision set up their budget for the year and made their appropriations for the school. That could have been it, which the honourable member well knows, but if it's something that could be rectified by my department, we'll certainly do it, but we will have to check into it. MR. McKENZIE: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I'll ask the Honourable Minister another question. I'll ask him now if the department or the government has approved the study of Duck Mountain School Division to deal with basically some of the serious problems and sort of a comprehensive examination of what I'm trying to get across to the Minister at the moment. MR. HANUSCHAK: What I was quoting from, Mr. Chairman, is the very study which was done, and this was done during December of 1975.

And not only was it approved by my de partment, it was approved by the Duck Mountain School Division Board to have this type of study analysis done , and that is complete. I have read a portion of it to the honourable member. If the honourable member wishes , I could have copies of the study distributed to the members of this Committee. MR. McKENZIE : Just one further question, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if the Minister now is satisfied that the division has the poorest tax bas e, basically, and this is the whole prob lem, and that the high cost of education has created some real acute problems in that division.

MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr. Chairman, of course I'm not satisfied that Duck Mountain School Division has the lowest tax base in the province.

3118 SUPPLY - EDUCATION April 30, 1976 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr . Chairman, I would like to enter the debate at this point just to revive a question and an issue that I have engaged the Minister on in sessions past and it is the question, Sir, of just how muc h kind of clout, how muc h kind of bang are we getting for the bucks that we 're spending in this area of evaluation, research and policy analysis ?

I, for one, confe ss - and I think it comes as no surprise to the Minister - that I am considerable of a skeptic when it comes to pro grams of this kind, branch operations of this kind and expenditures of this kind when we are at a point where we are trying to bring our economy under control and we 're trying to restrain spending to the essentials.

If there is any area, it seems to me, in which some savings could be achieved for application to more urgent and pressing problems in society and in the field of education it should be, I think, in the kind of frill activity that is implied in the work done by those covered in this particular branch and this particular appropriation. If it could be demonstrated to me that we were getting the kind of results from evaluation, research and policy analysis programs, that justified the short changing that we're getting in other areas of education expense, then I would be happy to live with it .

But I think we 're in an age and a stage of priorities and I don't use the term "short changing" misguidedly, Sir .

I think when one looks around at the problem of school financ ing, elementary and secondary school financing - and I realize that we haven't come to that item yet but it's the next major one on these Estimates - and one looks at the problems that we 're confron ted with in meeting a total budget that will be in excess of $300 million this year for the financing of public and secondary school education in Manitoba and one looks at the burden being borne inequitably, I might say, by many sections of the population, one has to be concerned about those areas where some dollars could be saved.

One has to be concerned about those areas where some dollars could be found for channelling into more urgent undertakings. Now I put this branch and this field of work in that category. I think that all things being equal, that evaluation, research and policy analysis, are probably good things. But measured against the kinds of problems we have in financing our whole system, measured against the kinds of results which I'm not so sure we 're getting, I must challenge the Minister again this year as I've done in the past to justify the existence of the Branch and its activities.

I would like to know for example, what are the parameters of this activity of evaluation, research and policy analysis ? Is there evaluation being done of the recruit ment and the training for example, of our teachers . Is there evaluation being done of the distribution of our teachers ? I've had many complaints directed to me in my own constituency, Fort Garry, with respect to the diff iculty that many of our Education course graduates have in finding employment in the school division of their choice .

In many cases - that division happens to be the Fort Garry School Division but I think it applies in the spectrum generally, that today we 're turning out graduates in Pedagogy who are not able to find the opportunities to carry out their prof essions and put their training into practice .

Certainly they find all too often that their opportunities of getting into the division of their choice are extremely limited and in some cases I've had it suggested to me, and I would appreciate the Minister's comment on this criticism, that opportunities are often denied them because those particular teaching spots have been filled by imports, and I use the term "imports" generally.

I'm not talking about United States imports; I'm talking about teachers from other jurisdictions, from other countries, be it anywhere in the world who have been given access to these particular teaching opportunities and who thus, as a consequence, have made it diff icult or the situation has reached a point where it has become diff icult for our own teaching graduates to find jobs in those divisions. I'm not advocating a closed-door policy by any means but I just wonder what evaluation is going on in this field .

Is there any point in turning out several hundreds of teaching graduates from our Education Faculty and Teaching Colleges every year if there is no place for them to go ? Is there any point or value in encouraging teachers from other parts of the world, from other countries, to seek fulfillment of their profe ssion ambitions here when we know that we have got a generally recognizable number coming out of our

April 30 , 1976 3119 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) •••.• own colleges every year who want to work in the field in Manitoba . That 's one area in which I would like to know what evaluati on, research and policy analys is is being carried out, or in fact if there even is a policy in that field.

I'm wondering too, Sir, whether the exercise of evaluation and research just exists in the area of curriculum or whether it extends to the whole question of establish ment of schools in different areas ; the need for elementary schools in growth areas, the question of whether all French schools should be located in different parts of the province such as the one that was at issue in st. Norbert during the past year . Are these sub jects examined by this particular branch ? Just how academic and how esoteric is this evaluation, research and policy analysis exercise ?

Does it get down to the basics of where we need the schools and where we need the teachers and how a teacher coming out of our own colleges is going to get a job here in Manitoba or does it not get down to those basics ? If it doesn't get down to those basics then I don't think it 's doing the most urgent job required of it at the presen t time.

There can be all kinds of idealistic and theoretical and no doubt fairly enjoyable exercises in playing around with educational concepts, in playing around with ideas for the classr oom, in playing around with theories in turning the education system and the education values upside down for the sake of seeing what they look like upside down. But those are wasted, pointless exercises, in a period of restraint .

Those are wasted, pointless exercises when we need those moneys to help finance the system, to help bail the real property owner and taxpayer out of the difficulty that has now been imposed by the cost of education. If a branch like this is going to justify itself at all it should not be wasting its time and its money and the taxpayers' time and money in that kind of hot house experimentation, that kind of hothouse activity when there really are some essentials that should be evaluated such as those to which I've referred.

If we 're going to talk about evaluation of the curriculum, and I don't dismiss that entirely as long as it's done in practical terms what are we getting in results from that exercise, Mr. Chairman ? Is the curriculum being evaluated to determine whether for example, there is really equality of education and educatio nal opportunity right inside Winnipeg ? We hear a great deal about the difficulties of students in other parts of the province, in the North and remote areas and my colleague referred to some of the prob lems in the Duck Mountain division . But what about right here in Winnipeg, Mr . Chairman ?

I don't need to familiarize the Minister, I'm sure, with the difficulties encountered by certain students in certain districts and parts of Winnipeg, particularly in the Inner City and in some immediately adjacent areas on the fringe of the city . I'm wondering to what extent we 're getting a fair evaluation of the question of equality or inequality of opportunities for those students as against students in more affluent districts and sections of the city .

There have been, from time to time, editorials and letters to the editor, some of them written by activists in the community who are more aligned, more allied in their political thinking to the Minister and his colleagues than to those of us on this side . But some of the things that they say certainly appeal to those of us on this side .

We find ourselves much in agreement with some of the things they've been saving because they've been asking this question as to what degree students in the Inner City, in the core area of Winnipeg, are being given a fair shot, a real equality of opportunity in education as against some of the wealthier school divisions . I count mine, Fort Garry, in that latter category . I think that it certainly is fortunate from that point of view . We can't simply be looking to those divisions to turn out the professional people and the trained people and the talented and energetic people that we need.

We need those people from all our divisions . In the great debate that 's raged over the three ''Rs" and the effectiveness of today 's thrust in education as against the basics that all of us grew up with a few years ago, one point that has been raised and emphasized by persons whose political allegiance is much closer to the Minister's than mine is that if you cut back on the three ''Rs " or you in any way diminish the basics in education, you hurt the children.

You hurt the students in the disadvantaged parts of the city far more than in the more affluent parts of the city because the more affluent parts, through their special levy, through their

3120 April 30 , 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) • • • • . willingne ss, reluctant willingne ss to carry the load for a while, are prepared to see their schools in their division provide more opportunities . It's not just a case of being prepared to do so, it's a case of being in the fortunate position, to a certain extent, of being able to do so . So the people who get hit with a real downgraded and degraded education are the students in the less affluent areas of the city. What kind of evaluation is being done on that situation?

If the Branch is doing active and tangible evaluation and coming up with results that can be worked with, well then perhaps I would incline to be less critical of the existence of the Branch itself, and of the appropriation being voted for it. In looking at the curriculum further, Mr . Chairman, I re vert again to a plea that I think I've made to the Minister before.

To what extent is the curriculum being evaluated from the point of view of training and teaching our children that they're Canadians and that this is Canada and that they're institutions political and cultural and social in this country worth preserving.

How many of our children really - except for the odd field trip that they have to the Legislature ani other institutions of this kind - how many of our school children really know anything about the political institutions of this country and the politic al system that we live under and its evolution and its importance to them in terms of their right to fulfil themsel ves and express themselve s. Most of them in my experience - and I have three not uneducated teenage children of my own - are badly short-changed by our system when it comes to an understanding of the most important things in this country.

The most important things in this country outside of our people in my view, Mr . Chairman, are our political institutions. Without them there would be no opportunity to express oursel ves and fulfil oursel ves, there would be no point in those children pursuing their ambitions for fulfilment in this country. But they don't understand what our system is all about and they don't understand the evolution of it. I think that to a great extent the weakness begins in the training of the teachers themsel ves .

The weak ness rises from the fact that the teac hers are not inculcated with an understanding of and an appreciation of the institutions and the system, slow and tedious and la borious as it may be . If one is going to spend time in an ivory tower looking at curriculum I would suggest that there are some tangible subjects of this kind that could be introd uced into that ivory tower for examination.

I would go beyond the question of instruction in our political institutions and ask what is included in the curriculum at the present time that gives our students, our young people , any insight, any understanding whatever, of our economy, of the economy and how it works and why it works and when and how it doesn't work and who is dependent on whom in the economy for the material benefits which abound in our society.

What is being done in terms of acquainting our young people and equipping our young people to look at the marketplace and look at the economic institutions of our country with a sense of understanding and with a sense of appreciation and with a sense, if it's criticism, of enlight ened, instructed criticism not some kind of criticism by rote that came to them from somebody else who didn't have the basic education and the basic grounding to allow him or her to understand it and to understand its strengths against its weaknesses . It's oftentimes the weaknesses that are too widely emphasized.

What's being done in the evaluation of a curriculum from the point of view of physical health and fitness and well-being as well as intellectual improvement. These are some of the things that I think are tangibly deserving of examination when we come down to evaluation and research and I would welcome the Minister's com ments on them. If he has already commented on them, I apolog ize . I know I was out of the Chamber for a few moments at the beginning of the examination of this particular vote this morning and I would apologize to him for repetition if that's the case and I'll look for his answers in Hansard.

But I don't beli eve that we've looked at some of these points tha I've raised up to this time and I would like to ask the Minister to justify the existence of this branch at least to the point where I can live with this vote for another year . I don't say that I won't be back next year asking him once again to wipe out the branch and spend the money more effectively in financing elem entary and secondary schools .

April 30, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION 3121 MR. HANUSCHAK: Mr . Chairman, I wish to thank the Honourable Member from Fort Garry for posing some of the questions that he did because some of those were the types of questions which I had invited, when we had reached this item in my Estimates, and which for some reason or another took all this time to draw out of the Official Opposition. Now the questions are before us and I am most pleased and take pride in responding to . Firstly, I would like to co=ent on the two last points which he raised. One, namely Canadian content and the other, physical fitn ess.

Now there was some involve ment by Planning and Research, considerable involvement by Planning and Research, in these areas at one time but I am happy to inform the honourable member that the involvement of Planning and Research in these areas has come to an end and this is now built into the regular departmental operations which we will have an opportunity to deal with under (5) on the next page, Program Development and Support Services, at which time we will have an opportunity to deal with the question of Canadian content in cur riculum and question of physical fitne ss • I was particularly glad, Mr .

Chairman, to hear the Honourable Member for Fort Garry being critical of education by rote. I would take it then that to the Honourable Member for Fort Garry -at least, I don't know whether in stating that view he is speaking for his party or not, he may well not be. I don't know because I really don't know what the official position is of his party on this issue.

But it's quite apparent to me that to the Honourable Member for Fort Garry education means something more than merely assembling children in certain buildings and drilling certain facts into them and having the children recite those facts back to the teacher regardless of whether they understand them or not and regardless of whether the facts so memorized are in any way meaningful or relevant to them in their life or will be meaningful or re levant to them when they assume their position in society as adults. So that was pleasing to me .

There's some indication that perhaps there's at least a faint gli=er of hope on that side of the House that it may eventually acquire an appreciation of what education really ought to be all about. Now I said that the honourable member's questions do now prese nt me an opportu nity to explain to the House, with a measure of pride, in some greater detail, what the function and the role of this branch really is. Mr . Chairman, in advance I would want to indicate to you that I will be following my notes fairly closely because I want to describe these programs in detail .

I suppose if one wishes to relieve himself of gobbledegook, one may proceed in a manner as the Honourable Member from Morris suggested a moment ago that I should, that I should not make any reference to notes whatsoever. But that is not my intention, Mr . Chairman. I want to assure the Honourable Member for Fort Garry that research activity carried on is not of an esoteric kind but it is very real and relevant to the needs of the pupils of the co=unity at large and that any activity of this kind is, nor is it a frill activity.

It's carried on in close co-o peration and conjunction with the teachers and the school divisions who may be participating in these various projects. It's his impression that some are frill activities. Well, I will describe them to you, Mr . Chairman, and then I would invite honourable members, afte r hearing a desc ription, I would invite honourable members to indicate to me which of those they would consider or term, classify, as being frill activites. The maj or area of activity is one of evaluation, of assessment and evaluation of the various component parts of the school system, of the Public School System.

That is the broad, the overall goal and objective of it, to assess and evaluate the public school system in terms of its broad goals and learner outcome objectives in order to provide accountability to the honourable member and to me and to the public. What are we doing in an attempt to carry out such an evaluation ?

We are involved in internal .... external evaluation; involved in developing an expert ise in internal-external evaluation to develop that type of expertise at the division level to offer assistance to school divisions to do their own evaluation of their programs and to allow also to develop an expertise within the teaching prof ession to do a proper and a meaningful evaluation of their performance; to develop a system in expertise for the

3122 April 30, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) ••••• community to evaluate the education program delivered to it by those elected by it, namely the school board and those whom the school board hires, the teachers and also to develop an expertise with the hope - well it's more than a hope, this is one of our objectives - to do whatever possible to assist school divisions to design education programs to meet their particular needs and hence to develop an expertise to identify local needs and des ign educational programs accord ingly.

To do this type of evaluation process, to develop ways and means of des igning measurement instruments to measure properly and effective ly and also for diagnostic purposes which would assist the teacher in remedying any weaknesses that a student may have in developing student achievement tests, to measure student attitudes to measure student development of thinking skills - and I'm sure that this the Honourable Member for Fort Garry would appreciate because he did indicate a moment ago that education should be something more than just rote learning.

Also to measure cost effectivene ss which is indeed difficult , because in education, Mr. Chairman, it's not quite the same as in a fa ctory, in an as sembly plant of some kind wherein it's somewhat simpler to measure the cost of the production of whatever item, whatever c.ommodity the factory prod uces and then in turn determine the price at which it ought to be sold . To attach a price tag to the various component parts of education, in line with whatever priorities we may set for ourselves at any given point in time in history, is somewhat more diff icult and so therefore this does require considerable study .

Evaluation of education support services, the evaluation of the support services that the education program receives from its school board offi ce, from the administrat ive staff at the school board offi ce . What is the proper balance in ratio of administrative staff that a school division with a given enrolment should have. What ought to be the role and function of the various administrative offic ers evaluating the other support services suc h as caretaking services and so forth .

During the past year this type of evaluation or assis tance in the development of this type of evaluation was implemented in three school divisio ns . Duck Mountain, to which I've already refe rred, and the two others; One, an urban school division, River East and Western School Division. So we have two rural and one urban. I suppose that the honourable members will in a sense see the diffe rence between the two rural school divisions .

Western School Division has a somewhat higher tax base to draw upon; Duck Mountain School Division is one of those school divisions - you 'll remember when the Honourable Member for Roblin asked me if I was satisfied with the low tax base in Duck Mountain School Division and I replied, no, I am not satisfied with the low tax base becaus e I realize the problems that this creates to the people locally and I also realize the greater measure of responsibility, of financial responsibility that we have to assume for that division. So nobody is happy with anybody's poorness or poverty.

Nobody is satisfied with anybody's poverty. Why the Honourable Member for Roblin asked me that question I do not know. To conclude, that particular evaluation program upon its completion will serve as a model for application elsewhere in other school divisions to assist them in doing that type of an evaluation.

So to do this, that involves interviews of teac hers, students, community members, and the interviews and evaluations of school board office staff s, central office staff s, administrative staffs and as a matter of fact, even at this point in time, for example, ·the Duck Mountain School Division evaluation was completed only about four mon ths ago in December - four or fiv e months ago, not much more than that, in December, I believe of last year and I understand that at this time a number of changes have already been implemented within the Division in line with the findings of the evaluation that was done of its own activitie s. --(In.terjection)--Yes, and the Honourable Member from Sturgeon Creek is speaking from his seat again.

Evaluation of caretakers . I did not say evaluation of caretakers • It shows how intently the Honourable Member for sturgeon Creek listens or how well he understands . I said evaluation of caretaking services . The Honourable Member may have written one

April 30, 1976 3123 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) •.•.• thing in his notes but from his seat he said something else . It's caretaking services, caretaking operations, and at this in Duck Mountain School Division is in the process of being completed which sh ould be completed very shortly. The transportation system of the division is studied to determine alternative routes, alternative method3 of maintenance of vehicles all with a view to reducing costs, to operating, to delivering our education program in the most economic manner possible .

Honourable members, particularity the rural members, will appreciate that transporta tion costs do form a significant portion of the total operating costs of any rural school division . Evaluation of basic skills, of the teaching of basic skills and of the learning of basic skills . Areas of weakness in the teaching of basic skills have been identified in the school divisions within which such an evaluation that has been progress . Programs have been planned, are in the process of being planned and now being initiated to bolster these areas.

These are some of the evaluation programs being carried out within the divisions . Then related to that, again with the objective of identifying needs , screen testing for visual problems, evaluation of level of fitness, physical fitness of students - and by the way I may mention and I'm proud to mention that this evaluation program has been extremely well received by the Association of School Trustees and the Teachers ' Society.

There is also as one indication of the success of this evaluation that there have been requests from superintendents to initiate programs moving in the direction to deal with visual problems and to provide more effective physical fitness programs . Some have, because of the size of school division, sizes of the population, the complexity of the population make-up, have taken an additional step in order to refine the evaluation. They are conducting an external evaluation within these areas. The community asses sment program.

Another form of evaluation which is being conducted in three schools in Winnipeg, within the core city area, the area that the Honourable Member for Fort Garry expressed a concern about. The purpose of the community assessment program is to provide the parents and the community, with research, evaluative and informational skills which are necessary and which they require to make certain judgments about their schools .

In addition the program provides a comprehensive structure for the meaningful participation of community members in all aspects of the educational process as well as the participation of the school in the community.

I'm sure that this is apparent to all in this day and age, that with the change in lifestyles that has come about over the past - and the continuing rate of change of lifestyle that is evident before us - that there is need to develop and maintain, because in many cases it has to be developed, a very close liaison between the com munity and the school to enable the community to fully appreciate what the school is attempting to do. The sch ools within which a community assessment program is operating are William Whyte, Shaughnessy Park and Machray School .

As a result of the community asses sment program in those three areas, there have come into being what could be called community schools, a program involving adults from the community. Just to give honourable members an idea of what the reaction is of these people in the community to the community asses sment program.

At William Whyte for example a community council was established which meets monthly and the attendance ranges from 25 to 100 for one relatively small - not one of the largest schools in Winnipeg but an average size perhaps leaning over on the small side - on a monthly basis it manages to attract up to a hundred people to discuss and deal with educational issues, educational issues relevant to them within their own school . An information centre was established which publishes a community newsletter dealing with educational issues , articulating the education program to the people in the community.

Adult education classes, a welcome team. The function of the welcome team is if some body moves into the community it meets them, informs them of the existence of the community council at the school, welcomes them into it and invites their participation and involvement. A community aide program has come into being as a result of this.

3124 April 30, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) . • • • • Again even greater involvement within the education program. Six people from the community are working as aides full time in the school . This too, Mr. Chairman, assists in interpreting and articulating the school program to the community. If there's any change in education programming, some parents have the opportunity to be in the school and obtain a better appreciation of what the change is all about and the significance of it the nature of it and the nature of the change .

A local curriculum committee composed of teachers and parents and they've worked together to produce booklets for classroom use on topics of local interest. I suppose in a sense one could relate this to the concern that the Honourable Member for Fort Garry expressed a moment ago when he spoke about Canadian content. Here's the best example one could have of Canadian content, not Canadian content a thousand miles removed from the community of the child but local Canadian content, the part of Canada that he knows best, his own community, and enab les him to better understand it.

For example at William Whyte School - and this is one of a number of such booklets that have been published. One, I did see it, I do not have it with me at the present time, perhaps I could obtain it to show to honourable members what is being done by the pupils and the parents • Experiences of a Metis child. A Metis child moves into the community and it's done with a view to do two things.

One, it will enable that child being new to an urban community, to a large urban community, perhaps moving in from either a northern community or some sparsely populated rural community to better appreciate and under stand and cope with the ways of urban living and also allows those who are born and raised in the urban community to better understand the child who has now become somebody's next door neighbour and somebody with whom he now plays with in the play ground. A financ e committee. A finance committee, a hiring committee, policy committee.

Community and school personnel work together for decision making in these areas in determining what the staff requirements are that should be met in any given year . The same is done at Shaughnessy Park. Now you know if honourable members think that this type of community involvement of projects providing for this type of community involvement is something esoteric then I would hope that during the course of this debate they would get up and say so .

At Shaughnessy Park a community council was established with communities focusing on curriculum development, communications, individualization, discipline, adult education, personnel, policy, financ e, nutrition, recreation, community services and senior citizens. You see no two such communi1 councils are alike . Each one has a character and a personality all its own structured and designed to meet its own local needs.

A community teacher aide program was established, a joint use of facilities agreement, of the school facilit ies, an agreement between the City of Winnipeg and the school division was arrived at for the joint use of the school facili ties for the entire community. From time to time they organize community dinners . Once a year they hold a dinner. This year's community dinner in Shaughnessy Park was attended by a few people, there were a few people there. There were 1, 200 people at the dinner . At Machray School a community council established there too.

Their committees focus on volunteers in the classroom, recreation, and school policy . fu the Machray School area there's perhaps a very prominent migrants problem. It's a transient area so they have developed a migrants program dealing with the needs of new people moving into the area . This is a co-operative venture with the frien dship centre. There too, to acquaint the people with the activities of the school to invite the community to the school because one must remember that in many such communities a school really isn't a place of attraction to them. They look upon a school with some measure of fe ar .

Their experience in a school may have been very very diff erent from that from those living in an urban community, their experience in a school may have been that old one-room school house in some remote community 20, 25, 30 years ago . They're not quite sure what one does . How does one approach a school ? How does one approach a principal, a teacher ? What do you do ? Do you have to get permission from somebody to go in

April 30, 1976 3125 SUPPLY - EDUCA TION (MR. HANUSCHAK cont'd) ••. there ? Aren't teachers human beings that anybody can meet with and talk to and discuss problems with. Hence the purpose and the function of dinners of this kind which are arranged and organized locally, and at Machray School, a smaller school district than Shaughnessy Park, it too attracted a few people to its annual dinner . Six hundred, 600 people turned out. What about the community involvement in the planning and the conduct of the programs that I have just mentioned ?

To give you some indication of the number of people attending the meeting at which the decision was made to for joint use of recreational facilities, over 55 people from the community attended . These are 55 people who took a very keen interest in the recreation program for their kids and who no doubt are and will become very much involved in a recreation program for the children, for the community at large. Fifty five of them in a small school such as Machray. Studies involving parent interviews are being conducted - I must move on Mr .

Chairman - being conducted to provide a means of obtaining parents' perceptions and concerns about the education which their children are receiving . This information will become available to the schools, the department and to the public. This I think is very significant because this is a much broa der study and we are now, to obtain some sort of an assessment and evaluation of the school program in general, we are doing an interview study of the parents of Grade 4 students . That has been completed .

A study of career programs in the Mystery Lake School Division has also been completed and in addition a study involving interviews of parents of Grade 8 students was conducted. Initial results indicated that approximately three-quarters of all parents felt that the teachers were doing an excellent or a good job. I have, and I'd be happy to have the pages distribute this, to table this in the House and have it distributed to honourable members of the House, the results of the survey of Grade 4 students in Manitoba schools . There are some very interesting findings in here .

Seventy-five percent of the parents have positive feelings toward the classroom environment - felt the children were happy, the classes well organized and so forth, 75 percent. Feelings about parental involvement in the school, the desire to be involved in the school . Eighty percent wanted to be involved in the operations of the school. Mr. Ch airman, if I may I would like these distributed and I'm also tabling this of course . Ten percent had mixed feel ings, 10 percent negative. This, Mr .

Chairman, has been done in various parts of the Province of Manitoba, not in the three school districts that I've mentioned . Because over there the positive reaction probably would be even much higher because of the . experience the people have had . But generally speaking the people, even in those districts where at the present time they are not involved in the operation of the school, are really saying that they want to become involved . MR. CHAffiMAN: Order plea se. The Honourable Minister 's time has elapsed. MR.

HANUSCHAK: As the debate progresses, in response to other questions I'll be able to answer the Honourable Member for Fort Garry, some of the remaining questions whic h he had put to me. MR. CHAffiMAN: Resolution 47(a) - the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. SHERMAN: Mr . Chairman, I don't know whether I can cut through the cloud .

I appreciate the Minister's enthusiastic approach to the area but I must confess that I find it extremely difficult on the basis of the answers that he 's given me to bring myself to any enthusiasm for the kinds of things that the branch seems to be spending its time and its money on doing up to this point. Certainly there is some worthwhile social exercises here that are being carried out, no doubt, but there's a surfeit of surveys it seems to me and a surfeit of evaluations and I think what the taxpayer wants to know is what's coming out of them ? What's coming out of them in terms of educa tion?

What have we learned from those surveys and those examinations and evaluations that has told us what the weaknesses are in the system and what needs to be done to provide children with equality of education and with basics in education. I know that there are communities that need social help and I know that there are persons who need aid in social and communication skills. I don't know, at a time when the financing and funding of public and secondary school education in this province is going to cost us more than $300 million and the Foundation Program is only going to

3126 April 30, 1976 SUPPLY - EDUCATION (MR. SHERMAN cont'd) ••• •• pay for half of that, I don't know that we can aff ord to be engaging in these kinds of exercises at some additional expense when we've got to provide the basic education and we haven't got the money to do that. I would like to know what is, if all these surveys and evaluations are being carried out as extensively as the Minister says, is that the raison d •e'tre for the branch ? Is that the raison d 'etre for the employment of those who work for the branch, simply to engage in surveys and evaluations ?

What comes out of that kind of thing that provides tangible input into the system that improves education and equalizes educational opportunity ? Perhaps the Minister had much more to say on the subj ect and was coming to some of the questions I bad asked him. Perhaps he was moving in for the kill and we were sort of consolidating here in order to be able to withstand whatever withering attack he directed but there was no need for the consolidation because the response he's given us so far leaves us looking for some floating spar to cling to in this sea of generalizations and verbalization.

I would suggest that like those of us who have put these questions to him, the vast majority of Manitobans are at sea and in danger of sinking in terms of an appreciation and an understanding of the educational system in the province today and the educational thrust of this department. I still don't know what is being done in terms of insuring that our teaching colleges, that our Department of Education is undertaking programs and undertaking a production stream of graduates that's geared to the needs and to the openings and place ment opportunities that exist in the education field .

I still don't know what is being done in terms of evaluating the ability of the teachers coming out of those schools and institutions to understand what kind of educational system they should be giving our chil dren, to understand what the basic needs of our children are, to provide some of the things in terms of their all-round education that I referred to a few moments ago .

I still don't know whether a teacher should be going to teache r college here in Manitoba, whether they can get jobs when they get out, whether there has been any asses sment of the importation of teachers and the number of placement opportunities available for people. I still don't know, Mr. Chairman, whether the need for additional schools, additional elementary schools in particular areas is being asses sed by this branch, particular areas not only in other p;Lrts of Manitoba but right here in Winnipeg.

What we 're getting apparently from the branch in its evaluation and research activities is a number of social undertakings and social exercises to help people understand and relate to people . What's that doing for education ? The Minister hasn't answered any of those questions . MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . The hour being 12:30 the honourable member will have an opportunity to continue after lunch. I'm leaving the Chair to return at 2:30 this afternoon .

April 30, 197 6 3127 SUPPLY - DE PARTMENT OF HIGHWAYS MR . CHAIRMAN (Mr. Walding): There being a quorum, the Committee will come to order. I refer honourable members to Page 34 in their Estimates Book. The Department of Highways - Resolution 65(

f) District Offices: (1 ) Salaries and Wages . The Honourable Minister of Highways . MR . BURTNI AK: Mr . Chairman, I'm wondering, before we deal with that particu lar

section there were some questions asked last night that I took as notice. Mind you some of them will deal with the Motor Vehicle Branch so that information will be coming when we get to that point. There was a question, I believe, by the Honourable Member for Pembina in regards to what is the total staff of the Department of Highways, I believe that is the question that he posed. There are 2, 7 40.13 SYMs . That's the total staff of the Department of Highways . The other question which was asked by the Member for Minnedosa, as far as the bridges on PTH No. 4.

As the member pointed out, there's one that was completed on the 31 st of March, this last March . There were a couple of others . I want to report to the committee, Mr. Chairman, that there are no delays really insofar as the construction of these bridges are concerned. They're on

schedule . It's just the time that they were tendered and all that. They are running on time so there 's no delay in that respect. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR . HENDERSON: I think the Member for Minnedosa at that time was talking about where they had put up a temporary road so that they could build a bridge. Now he said it had all been washed out and had to be done again. Was this under contract or was this an extra cost, shall we say ••• MR. BURTNI AK: This, Mr . Chairman, would be a bit of an additional cost. It's not going to be that much.

You must remember that these detours were constructed before the frost set in, so you know it's just one of those things. It does cost a little extra but nothing really that much, for the construction of what they call a shoo-fly around the bridge . MR. HENDERSON: But it was a government cost, it wasn't to the contractor who took on the job. MR. BURTNIAK: It was a government cost, yes . But I want to point out, Mr . Chairman, that all these shoo-flies were not washed out so that regardless of when these bridges would be constructed these shoo-flies still would be constructed for the traffic to get around.

The concern was, I believe, because of the fact that some of these were washed out. Well I think that there was only one or two that were washed out to some degree, which is a small additional cost. It's pretty hard to avoid these things, I suppose, when you have this kind of construction going on. MR . HENDERSON: Due to the way the spring thaw occurred this spring, there would be far less washouts on your highways than other years - highways, and bridges -t hat in other years, would there not? Far less than the overall total picture ? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. BURTNIAK: Mr .

Chairman, I don't have at my fingertips the numbers of bridges or roads that have been washed out. We know of some, quite a number, yes. But whether this is much greater or much less than a norm I am not sure . I don't think it's much greater than other years, I'm sure that we ha•1e had more serious situations, flooding, wash out situations in previous years compared to this one, but we have some pretty bad ones never theless . MR . CHAIRMAN: Resolution 65 - the Honourable Minister. MR . BURTNIAK: Mr.

Chairman, there's one other question that I think we should dispose of that was asked by the Member for Arthur in regard to the number of bridges that were constructed. In 19 7 4-75 there were 61 structures; in 197 5-76 , 64 structures . I believe that was the information that the honourable member wanted. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 65(

f) District Offices:

(1) Salaries and Wages--p ass; (f)(2)--pass; (f)--pass. Resolution 65(

g) Highway Traffic Inspection:

(1) Salaries and Wages . The Honourable Member for Pembina. llli:R. HENDERSON: Yes , I would like the Minister to explain this

section somewhat - any particular changes in their work. This is for weight inspections and everything besides, is it not, and your traffic inspection. Or is mostly for licences and things.

3128 April 30, 1976 SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS MR . BURTNJAK: Yes, for truck weights and the likes. What is it specifically that the honourable member would like me to explain. He said that he would like a further explanation but I wonder what really the honourable member has in mind that he would like me to explain furt her, if anything. MR. HEND ERSO N : On the highway they're sometimes stopping you for checking your driver's licence, sometimes it's your vehicle, sometimes it's your weight.

They stop you for many diff erent things and I was just wondering, traffic inspections, they won't all be covered in this, this is for weights, I presume. MR . BURTNJAK: Yes, Mr. Chairman. This appropriation provides for salaries and travelling expenses of inspectors who are situated at highways scales which are stra tegically located throughout the province and also inspectors operating the portable scales which are all throughout the province.

Of course the purpose for this ·inspection is to ensure that the gross vehicle weight of trucks travelling on highways does not exceed the specificia tions to which the highways were constructed. In essence that is what the purpose of this inspection staff is • weights. MR . HEND ERSO N : That's what I was concerned about, whether it was just the MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Rock Lake. MR. EINA RSON: Mr.

Chairman, sometimes you see people - this is in the Spring when the road restrictions are on - normally at a given point where you might find, I can think of No. 2 and 34 where they cross, how many people are employed at one time for that job? MR. BURTNJAK: The member wanted to know, that is - during the time of restrictions on the highways . MR . EINA RSON: During the time of restrictions only I'm thinking of, MR. BURTNJAK: Mr. Chairman, I don't know if I heard the honourable mem ber correct

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	30-3-94
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	30th 3rd hansardpdf 94.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	246e871ae75bd124c18f0ca8af6b79f512337f7a

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