Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 17 (26th Legislature, 5th Session)

26-5-17

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Legislative Assem bl y Of Manito ba DE BATES an d PROCEED INGS Speaker The Honourable A. W. Harrison Vol. VII No. 17 2:30 p. m., Monday, March 5, 1962 . 5th Session, 26th Legislature Printed by R. S. Evans. Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba. Winnipeg

THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 2:30 o'clock, Monday, March 5th, 1962. Opening Prayer by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Petitions . . MR. NE LSON SHOEMAKER (Gladstone): . Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Honourable Member for St. Boniface, I wi sh to present the petition of Raym ond Bernier and others praying for the passing of

An Act to incorporate the St. Boni face College Scholarship Fund. �- CLERK: The petition of the Winnipeg Better Business Bureau praying for the pass ing of

An Act to amend

An Act to incorporate the Winnipeg Better Business Bureau. The peti tion of Albert Chamberland and others praying for the passing of

An Act to incorporate the Mis si onary Oblate Fathers of Keewatin. MR. SPEAKER: Presenting Reports for Standing and Special Commi ttees. Notice of Motion. Introduction of Bills. The Honourable the Minister of Health. HON. GEORGE JOHNSON (Minister of Health) (Gimli ) introduced Bill No. 48,

An Act to amend The Hospi tals Act. MR. SPEAKER: Comm ittee of the Whole House. HON. STEW ART E. McLEAN, Q. C. (Minister of Education) (Dauphin) : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Health, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Comm ittee of the Whole to cons ider the following pro posed resolutions, standing on the Order Paper in the name of the Honourable the Acting Minis ter of Public Works, and the Honourable the Minister of Health. MR.

SPEAKER presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved into a Comm ittee of the Whole wi th the Honourable Member from St. Matthews in the Chair. HON. DUFF ROBLIN (Premier) (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, His Honour the Lieutenant Governor, having been advised of the subject matters of the proposed resolutions, recommends them to the House. MR.

CHAIRM AN: Resolution No. 1- Resolved it is expedient to br ing in a measure to amend The Public Works Act by providing for the designation of certain highways as provinc ial roads, the cost of the construction and maintenance of wh ich shall be paid from the Consol idated Fund. MR.

ROBLIN: In the absence of the Minister who is o'u:t of the Ci ty today on other busi ness, I can advise the House that this is a proposal to replace the present category of lOO% pro vincial roads which haven't a very precise definition and are not provided for in the statute by this kind of a definition, which wi ll cover this type of road wi th greater precision than hereto fore. I don't believe that it indicates any substantial departure in policy although it wi ll enable us to identify these roads by means of road signs and si milar identification of that sort. MR.

GILDAS MOLGAT (Leader of the Oppos ition) (Ste. Rose) : Mr. Chairman, is it the intention to add to the list of roads th at are presently under that category, or is it si mply taking the existing ones and renaming them? One other question as well: Why not bring these into the provincial trunk highway system as part of the over-all road program ? MR. ROBLIN: In a sense, Mr.

Chairman, this does br ing them into the provincial trunk highway system though as a separate category of their own for the reason that certain standards of traffic and other technical consi derations apply, so that they should be in a separ ate category, but this wi ll bring them effectively wi thin the trunk highway system.

Undoubtedly, more roads wi ll be added to this category as time goes by, but as far as I am aware there is no intention to make any spectacular changes at the present time -- sim ply take in the roads that are now lOO% roads , give them this new category; they can then be sign-posted, and our res pons ibility for them clearly identified, and any new roads taken in under that category wi ll be simila rly dealt wi th, but if there are new ones the Minister can deal wi th them when his esti mates are up. MR. MORRIS A. GRAY (Inkster): Mr. Chairman, does it mean -- may I ask a question -- March 5th, 1962 Page 351

(Mr. Gray, cont1d. ) ..... does it mean that only the roads called "pro vincial" can be criticized by this House, and the others could be left alone, whet her they are broken or not? MR. EDMOND PREFONT AINE (Car illon): May I ask a question -- or two questio ns? Are these roads now most ly in Unorganized Terr itory or wh olly in Unorganized Territory or are there any roads in Unorganized Municipalities? And the second question would be: Will these roads be given numbers as trunk highways are? MR.

ROBLIN: I think ther e are lOO% roads now in both Organized and Unorganized Territory and some form of identification will be developed for them. I'm not sure whether it will be on the number ing basis or the letter ing basis , but there will be some form of identifica tion. MR. A. J. REID (Kildonan) : Are some of these roads just sec ondary roads and just by an order-in-council they be proclaimed No. 1 highways? MR. SHOEMAK ER: Mr. Chairman, I believe it is general knowledge that the -- what we refer to as the Neepawa-Carberry road has already been des ignated as a lOO% road.

I be lieve it is a fact that the Town of Neepawa, the R. M. of Langford and the R. M. of North Cypress have been advised of that fact and they're quite happy to receive the news. I, too, wo uld be in terested to know whether this

section of road will now be des ignated as a highway. MR. RUSSELL PAULLEY (Leader of the New Democ ratic Party) (Radisson): Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that we should, in this House, take note of the wor ds of the Firs t Minister that this particular resolution only deals, or apparently only deals with the nam ing of ro ads that are pres ently, to all intents and purposes, provinc ial roads.

I was some what amazed to hear my honourable friend st and up and say that in general -- it indicated to me - that in general that this was just more or less of a change of names, and if I understood him correct ly, that his remarks indicated to me that we were going to stand pat in the construction of roads that are lOO% respons ibility of the government itself.

Just a superfic ial glance at the estim ates for the Department of Public Works for this year indicates that this is so, and my honourable colleague from Elmwood, or rather from Kildonan, raised a very, very valid point I think when he wo ndered whether or not this was some thing of the nature of des ignating high ways through name or through order-in-council.

We have noted rece ntly, or since we last sat, that a number of the roads that -- contrary to the fact of this government when it first took of fice , saying that they were going to raise the spec ification and the general construction of the roads in our province in order to handle ever-increas ing vehicle wei ght and gross tonnage - that this simp ly is being done or is being done in many instances simp ly by the passing of an order-in-council, and if the statement of the Honourable the Premier of the province indicates that merely by this resolution we 're sim ply going to put a letter or a number on our provincial highways, it cer tainly isn't achieving what is desired for the people of Manitoba.

MR. ELMAN GUTTORMSON (St. George): Will the roads affected by this resolution be ma de available to the mem bers of the House? · MR. ROBLIN: I am sure, Mr. Chairman, if that question were asked when the esti mates are up that the Minister wo uld give that inform ation. In fact if he reads Hansard I hope he will notice that the question is asked and that he will have that inf ormat ion for members of the House. I don't think I could agree with the propos ition put forward by the Honourable the Leader of the New Democ ratic Party.

It is perfectly true that there is no revolut ionary comiotation to be attached to this particular measure -- that is, that the first thing that will be done will be to identify by mea ns of signs, et c. , those roads which are in this particular category. At the present time that isn't done. We think it should be done; we also think they should be on the map, which they're not identified on the map now as being provincial roads. We think that should be the case because it gives the travell ing public more information about the circum st ances which they cim expect.

But I can tell my honourable friend that st eadily additions are being ma de to this lOO% road concept. We get numerous requests from municipalities, and others , for this kind of thing and each case is dealt with on its merit and if it seems that we have lOO% responsibility, though it's not a provincial trunk highway in the normal sense, then that road is taken into account. So there is the gradual expansion of this kind of thing and I think my honourable friend will see that the quality of the road system is gradually increas ing as we have mai ntained it would do and a great deal of mo ney is be ing spent.

So, while I'm not Page 352 March 5th, 1962

(Mr. Roblin, cont'd. ) .. .. . making any spectacular claims for this piece of legislation, I think that it is reasonable under the circum stances. MR . PAULLEY: Mr.

Chairman, it does indicate to me another proof of the policy of the government that if the work isn't actually done at least through a gimm ick of this nature, of placing a number or a letter on a highway and placing it on the map, at least it shows to the public by the media of propaganda that we 're expanding our road system in the Province of Manitoba, and as we all know well in this House, the government are notorious for this type of gimm ick and propaganda.

I would far rather hear the First Minist er of this province make an announcement to the effect that, by virtue of this resolution, we wi ll be broadly expanding now our road :;>ystem lOO% provincial responsibil ity instead of just merely a gimm ick to indicate on paper or by designation that these roads are ours. MR . ROBLIN: Mr. Chairman, if I were making any claim such as the sort my honour able friend alleges, perhaps he might have some point in his gimmi ck suggestion, but we're just stating the facts of the matter here.

We're not trying to take any credit that isn't due and we 're not trying to deceive anybody, so I don't see anything wron g wi th the resolution. MR . CHAIR MAN: Resolution No. 2 - Resolved it is expedient to brin g in a measure to amend The Department of Health Act by providing, among other matters: (

a) for the establish ment of the Manitoba Hospit al Comm iss ion and the payment of the remuneration and out-of pocket expenses of the members, the appointment of staff and payment of their rem uneration, and the retention of professional assistance and payment of costs thereby incurred; (

b) for the establishment of The Manitoba Health Council and the payment of the out-of-pocket expenses of the members, the appointment of staff and the payment of their remuneration. MR. JOHNSON (Gimli): Mr. Chairman, this resolution refers to some of the subject matter in the Department of Health Act which wi ll be before the House shortly. This resolution refers to the changes we are contemplating ln the Department Health Act which wi ll set up a hospital comm ission consisti ng of the chairman and a total of three to five members.

This would provide for the part-time indemnity of the commi ssioners who would be appointed to serve on this body. The second part of the resolution refers to the Manitoba Health Council. As many members may be aware under The Health Services Act there has been a Health Ser vices Adviso ry Commi ssion for some years, and wi th the introduction of The Manitoba Hospital Services Act there was a hospital council set up under that Act.

The powers of these two com miss ions overlap and cons iderable duplication has resulted in that the Minister is direct ed at the present time to take any requests for hospital add itions or new hospitals to the Health Ser vices Adviso ry Comm iss ion and under The Hospit als Act this body is also asked to be called by the Minister for consultation and deliberation wi th respect to the Hospital Plan.

This has re su lted in duplication which has been obvious to members of both bodies now constituted, and it wa s, therefore, decided in the Department of Health Act proposed to the House this year that we amalgamate these two bodies as now constituted, into a Manitoba Health Council, the mem bership of which would be simi lar to the presently const ituted body. The members appointed under The Health Services Act are appointed largely from the same organization as are the members under the hospital council under The Hospital Insurance Act.

In other wo rds , you have this duplication at the present time and the Minister is required to meet wi th the two of them at this time. This is, we think, a step forward. This is a Council which wi ll be a part time body as the present councils are, to which the Minister can refer any matter of concern wi th respect to The Health Services Ac t and wi th respect to the Hosp itals Plan. It just pays out-of-pocket expenses and for the times when they do meet. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry I mi ssed the Minister's explanation -- which two bodies were going to be amalgamated? Could you tell me that again? MR .

JOHNSON (Gimli): There's

an Act under the Department of Health, Mr. Chairman, called The Health Services Act, and the Health Services Act is

an Act set up some years ago and deals with the setting up of local health units, local lab and x-ray units throughout the pro vince; and wit h also a commi ssion to which, when the Minister was ever,,asked for additions to hospi tals or for a new hospital by a com munity for example, he would submit this to the Health Services Advisory Commi ssion. The comm iss ion was made up of the Advis ory Board of the Deputy Minis ter of Health as a statutory member, certain members of the department, repre sentatives of the medical association, the munic ipalities, the associated hospitais and so on. March 5th, 1962 Page 353

(Mr. Johnson, (Gimli� cont•d .) . . . . . Under the Hospital Services Plan, the Manitoba hospital council largely has the same constit ution and the same representative body.

We have noted cons iderable duplication in presenting minutes to both these com miss ions, and wi th the Hospi tal Plan as it exists today wi th the government paying larger and larger sums towards hospital care and so on, we feel the setting up of a commi ssion to deal wi th the day-to-day problems of such a large utility, plus an amalgamation -of the commissi on under The Health Services Act and the advisory body under The Hospi tal Act would be very timely. MR. MOLGAT: So in future then under the Hospital Services Plan the comm ittees as listed here wi ll be changed.

We'll still have the officers of the plan obviously who wi ll continue. The next one, the Manitoba Hospital Council, wi ll disappear insofar as MHSP. The Medical Review Comm ittee, of course, wi ll continue, the Dental Review Comm ittee and the Hospital Budget Comm ittee. Fine. Now insofar as the first part of this resolution, Mr.

Chairman, the establishment of the Manitoba Hospital Com mi ssion, __ could the Minister tell us whether the members of that commi ssion have been selected as yet, and is it the intention -- they speak here of the payment of remuneration and out-of-pocket expenses -- could he tell us exactly what is the salary they intend to pay to these people; how frequently they intend to have them meet and exactly their function? MR. JOHNSON (Gimli) : Mr. Chairman, in answer to the questions, we have not picked anyone as yet, of course, in anticipation of the legislation.

The concept is becom ing only too apparent in talking to a number of people in the hospital field and in the day-to-day operation of this, which is now a very large utility spending a great deal of money, that it would be in the public interest to appoint a commi ssion of which the chairman shall be a full-time civi l servant -- say the present commi ssioner moving into the chairmanship of a commi ssion which shall consist of a total of not less than three or more than five members, who I anticipate at this time would be on a part-time ind emnity, which has not been determined, of course, at this time.

The main reason for this is this utility and the amount of - - in the day-to-day operation of the plan it is difficult for the leader, to the officials of that organization, to keep up wi th the changing concepts in hospitalization. I'm thinking of the many activities that should be explored and im proved upon where a commiss ion sitting part-time can give more cons ideration to the changes that are occurring from day to day, and be of an advisory group to the chairman of the commissi on who is charged wi th carrying the policy in the day-to-day operation of the plan.

One of the other things, for example, at the present time -- the budget commit tee of the plan consists of the commissi oner, the Deputy Minister of Health and the head of the budget comm ittee. These people set budgets, meet wi th the hospitals concerned and then the appeal is directly to the Minister. This is a feeling that more cons ideration can be given possibly to the -- as we 're go ing ahead from here on wit h, in analyzing budgets and so on, that certain studies very often should be made.

I think we're getti:ng to the point it's incumbent upon govern ment to carry out further studi es, constantly examining such things as laundry services, group purchasing and that sort of thing. And when you're dealing wi th a large utility like this and the many hundreds of details that come to the commi ssion's attention during a day, it could be im proved, we think, by the formation of such a body. MR. MOLGAT: Mr.

Chairman, ... ....•...... ..... expected term for which these people wi ll be appo inted, and I notice that provision is also made for the appointm ent of staff and retention of professional assistance pertaining to costs. At the present time is it not anti cip ated that the staff of the comm ission itself and the professional advisors that they have wi ll carry on and work wi th this ?

Also, while the Minister is making notes of questions to answer, I would assume then that only one of the members of the comm ittee wi ll be a permanent civi l servant, and presumably from your statement that wo uld be the present commiss ioner. All the others wi ll be non-civil service people, call them lay people if you wi ll. MR. GRAY: Mr. Chairman, ............... a question in connection wi th the one asked previously. Will they all be medical men? MR. DAVID ORLIKOW (St. John's): Mr. Chairman, I can understand the appointment and payment of staff.

This is a big organization spending a lot of money and nobody wo uld want the Commiss ioner to have another heart attack. I just wonder though about the purpose of the commissi on. Is the commissi on to do part of the work which is not now being done by the Com mi ssioner ? In other words, wi ll certain of his. present responsibilities be delegated to members Page 354 March 5th, 1962

(Mr. Orllkow, cont1d. ) ..•.. of the commission -- and I'm not saying that this m> uld be wrong -- or, is the commiss ion an advisory body to whom the Commiss ioner wi ll report on major decis ions of the op erations of the commiss ion so that he can get thei r consideration before they're made pol icy decisions. Again I'm not objecti ng to this , but I think the House should know what the purpose of this hospital commissi on is. MR. JOHNSON (Gimli): Mr.

Chairman, poss ibly we can deal wi th this a li ttle more in sec ond reading of The Department of Health Act, but for the questions that have been asked: It is antici pated in the legislation that the term of office would be for three years, that other than the chairman it would be part-time appo intments of lay people. Certainly we wo uldn't -- our feeling is .that there shouldn't be any vested interest on the commissi on, that is, I wouldn't an tici pate medical men unless there's some very good reason for that. I'm thinking more of a good busin essma n as being the ideal type to have on this commissi on.

We're not trying to get away -- this is put forward in a very straightforward manner -- we 're not trying to get out of any work or to do something sinister in any way. It's merely a, this utilit y is now in the ne ighbourhood of $40 million, the day-to-day operation of the plan is on the shoulders of one man who is also on the budget committee, who also reviews budgets wi th the boards of hospita ls, the appeals come directly into the Minis ter. This is very fine and we'll still continue to have the appeal to the Minister and the Minister wi ll have to be res ponsible for this commiss ion to this House.

However, we do need some support at the top in the method by which we're going to carry forward the ever-i ncreasi ng role of this utility and to give greater day-to-day scruti ny of just where we 're going. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Chairman, I think poss ibly this is a move in the right direction. I have one or two questions I would like to ask of the Minist er though in connection wi th the set ting up of this augmented commission. I apprec iate the fact that it has been a tremendous bur den on the present commiss ioner of hospi tals carrying alone.

I'd like to pay a comp lim ent to him at this particular stage as an individual. I think, despite many difficu lties , desp ite the fact that fro m time to time we might be critica l of the over-all plan, but I would say to the commis sioner as an individual that he has my support and that of my group. I would li ke to know, Mr. Chairman, what the Minister has in mind of the person nel of both of the groups that are suggested in this resolution. I believe my colleague from Inkster asked the question as to whether they would be just medical men, or others.

I think, myself, that with this huge public utilit y as it is now in the Province of Manitoba, that we should have rep resentatives of farmer, repres entatives of labour because, after all, collectively the peo ple of Manitoba are making ever-increas ing contributions directly into our hospi tal's fund. I would like to know from the Minister whether or not the government has given consideration in setting up of these commissi ons whether or not we're going to get away from the politica l setting of rates in respect of hospitalization. As you well know, Mr.

Chairman, we have the si tuation of where, by order-in-council, some months ago the rates were increased cons iderably, and then subs equently we had numerous debates in the House and eventually the rates were reduced. · I raised the question the other day, sp eaking in the Throne Speech, and I know we 're go ing to have an opport unity -- the First Minister indicated that it would be oy resolution -- that We're going to have an op portunity in this House sooner or later -- I hope it's sooner than later -- to consider the presentations made by the government to the Royal Commissi on on Health in respect to the setting of the rates of MMS.

I might say at this particular time, Mr. Chair man, and I'm rather disturbed in that connection, and I think that it is all-inclusive on hospital ization and medical care in the Province of Manitoba -.,-I'm a li ttle disturbed when I read re ports that there ap parently might be consultation between the Minist er and the MMS ln regard to rates. I think that it is well time that we got away from just consultation between Ministers and groups of this nature; as I indicated previously, that it should be on some rate setting board.

Now then, I posed the question in respect of the se tting up of these two councils or commi ss ions whether or not the setting of rates is going to be within their purvie w in their operation. I think that is very impor tant that that consideration be taken out of the hands, as I indicated, of government; poss ibly set �p primari ly by a commissi on of this nature subject to the ap proval of some organization, as I sugges ted previously, of a public utilit y board.

I think we'v e got to realize more and m�re that there has been a change in Medicare; there has been a change in hos pitalization wherefore the financial aspects of the payment of fees and funds should divorce March 5th, 1962 Page 355

(Mr. Paulley, cont'd. ) ..•.. ltself from politics, and I would like to hear the comm ents of the Minister in regard to the points that I raise. MR. A. J. REID (Kildonan) : Mr. Chairman, I wo nder if this is just another appoint ment of a high-paid comm ission to take the onus off the Minister and his department in future planning of hospitals and medical plans. MR. JOHNSON (Gimli): Mr.

Chairman, I want to make it perfectly clear that such a commissi on's responsibil ity is to try and give increased efficiency and a better and possibly an increasingly more public consc iousness of the Hospital Services Plan, and I've indicated that there are many activities that I can see discuss ing wi th the Commi ssion to assist us in the day to-day operation of the plan. No government -- I'd love to see all health and medic al matters com pletely out of the bands of politicia ns , but I've come to realize more and more that govern ment must become involved in setting of rates and so on.

I wo uld visualize the commi ssion, Mr. Chairman, as I see it, assisting the comm iss ioner in the setting of rates; they can look at these rates in a current and capit al program for the year and bring this to government, or to the Minist er and government; they wi ll have to study this together and go forward from there. With respect to the so-called dealing wi th the political setting of rates, I think we all want to bring the best possible standard of care, and at the same time preserve public funds to the maximum, make the maximum use of them, and I think this is one of the very reasons for a Commi ssion.

Today, frankly, the operation of this plan and the many problems that arise in finance, etcetera, require a great deal of the time, the whole time of the Commi ssioner, and a great deal of time of the Minister -- I don't care who the Minister is. And this wi ll have to continue to be so; this Commiss ion wi ll always have to an swer to the people and I think it wi ll strengthen our comm iss ion to have such a body. With respect to the setting up of the Health Council, certainly it is intended, and it wi ll be spelled out in the Ac t, just what representatives we wo uld expect to appoint.

We wo uld ask for three nominations, for instance, from this body, three from the municipalities, or two; and set up this on a representative level. However, this can be dealt wi th in greater detail as we see the bi ll before us. MR. MOLGAT: Before we leave this ,. an the second part of the resolution, the matter of the Health Council. At the moment the hospital's council as constituted has 12 members. I don't know how many members there are on the group that operates under The Health Act.

How large a council is it intended to have under this new scheme, and wi ll all the people who are on both be appointed on this new one ? MR. JOHNSON (Gimli): Mr. Chairman, I don't think we wi ll be able to accommodate everyone, but, for instance, on the Health Council we asked for nom inations from the munici palities on the Health Services Commiss ion advisory body, we asked for members from the municip alities. We would hope to consolidate certain ·numbers and have roughly about a 12-man health council. As I say, there is this very definite duplic ation at the present time. MR.

CHAIRMAN: ..... resolution be adopted? Commit tee rise and report. Call in the Speaker. MR. W. G. MARTIN (St. Matthews) : Mr. Speaker, the Comm ittee of the Whole House has adopted certain resolutions and directed me to report the same and ask leave to sit again. Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Swan Ri ver, the Report of the Comm ittee be received. Mr. Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. ROBLIN introduced Bill No. 39,

An Act to amend The Public Works Act. MR. JOHNSON (Gimli) introduced Bill No. 49,

An Act to amend The Department of Health Act. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. GRAY: Mr. Speaker, before the Orders of the Day, on a point of privilege, may I take up for one mi nute the time of the House. We are here celebrating many occasions , and I'd like to call the attention of this House the occasion of this week. This is "Educational Week" or the week for education. The main reason I rise is that I wa s born in a country where the large major ity of the people were illiterate.

Not because there were lack of teachers or facili ties, but the regime at that time -- the Czarist regime did not want a people wi th education. It's easier to deal wi th an ignorant people, and even they have from one time to the other Page 356 March 5th, 1962

(Mr. Gray, cont'd. ) ....• revolted, and many people, including myself, came to Canada because we felt that here we have an opportunity to educate our.children, knowing by education, by en lightenment, they could build a nicer wor ld to live in -- a wo rld of freedom and a wor ld of peace. I regret exceedingly. that I have not taken any advantage of the educational system in this country, but I'm very anxious to have my children and the children of everyone to become enlightened and help to build a better world.

I want to compliment those responsible in declar ing a we ek for education or educational we ek for all of us. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. Second reading of Bill No. 16. The Honourable the Attorney-General. M�. E. R. SCHREYER (Brokenhead) : :Before the Orders of the Day, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Health. I'm sorry I didn't give him notice, but perhaps he could take this as notice.

The question is simp ly this: "What is the government policy regarding the payment of munici pal realty taxes on dwellings used or inhabited by government employees of provinc ial institutions in any given municipal ity? Now , for example, in one munici pality in this province where there is a fairly large provinc ial institution, there are over 15 dwellings owned by the province used by provinc ial employees in which there is a sizeable amount of munici pal tax arrears and there seems to be no policy, and I would ask the Minist er if there is a policy. MR.

ROBLIN: Perhaps my honourable friend would allow me to say that I expect the Minist er of Municipal Affairs wi ll be able to make a statement on this when his estimates are up -- if my honourable friend wo uld be happy wi th that suggestion. MR. SCHREYER: ...... ...•.....•. .•. First Minist er. MR. T. P. HILLHOU SE, Q, C. (Selkirk): •........ the Honourable Member of Broken head who has just spoken, I have had this matter under advisement for some time. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr.

Speaker, before the Orders of the Day I would like to direct a question to the Honourable the Minister of Agriculture. Is it the intention of the government to declare further crop insurance test areas this year ? HON. GEORGE HUTTON (Minister of Agric ulture and Conservation) (Rockwood-Ibervill e): Mr. Speaker, I expect when I'm asked a question, I better answer. I'm not prepared to make an answer to the honourable member at this time. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. MR. McLEAN: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Honourable the Attorney-General, I would ask that Bills Nos. 16 and 17 stand over until tomorrow .

HON. CHARLES H. WITNEY (Minister of Mines and Natural Resources) (Flin Flon) presented Bill No. 30,

An Act to amend The Mining Royalties and Tax Act for second reading. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. WITNEY: Mr. Speaker, this is a technical matter. We are just clarifying the definition of a mi ning claim in order that we may assess the mini ng tax to a group of claim s. Under the ori ginal definition we were able to assess on the basis of one claim. Since we made mod ifications to the regulations we allow now the surveying of a group of claims up to 18, and this allows us to obtain a tax on each one of the 18 claims as we had done previously. Mr.

Speaker presented the motion and after a voice vote declared the motion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Adj ourned debate standing in the name of the Honourable Minist er of Welfare. The Honourable Member for Gladstone. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Speaker, in risi ng to take

part in the debate I want to make it perfectly clear that I'm in comp lete agreement wi th what the resolution before us is in tended to do for the people of Manitoba and, indeed, all Canadians. It is , therefore, our intention to support it or any other legislation that wi ll imp rove provisions or benefits for our senior citi zens, disabled persons, etcetera, etcetera. I subscribe, too, to the fact that -- to quote the Honourable Mr. Pearson: "It has become the obligation of a responsible society to make pos sible retirement wi thout wo rry but I don't believe we can do that on a simp le handout basis.

We need sound government plans to which the individual contributes. This is Liberal policy. " All political parties apparently are in accord wi th the princip le involved in the proposed reso lution before us. On checking the Federal Hansards of February 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th, 1962, the days on which this subject matter was being debated in the House of Commons, it is March 5th, 1962 Page 357

(Mr. Shoemaker, cont'd. ) ..•.. quite apparent that no me mber of any op position group was opposed to the principle of (

a) the graduated old age pensions on a contributory basis for those who can afford additional provisions for their old age and who have not undertaken it under pri vate plans contractual or otherwise, and (

b) the payments of benefits under certain circum stances to the widows and children of contributors who die and to former contributors who be come permanently disabled. · I repeat, Mr. Speaker, the debates on this subject matter in Ottawa did not involve principle. In addition to discussing the merits of both the proposed Conservative and Liberal schemes for a contributory old age pension plan, the Opposition, and that's all of them, argued that it was not necessary to amend the BNA Act to enable the government to proceed with im plementing the program outlined in the resolution that's before us today. This is particularly true of that part of the resolution under

Section A. I do not profess to know too much about law nor do I profess to be a constitutional specialist or expert, but as a political partisan it cer tainly does appear to me that the present

Section 94(

a) of the BNA Act enacted in 1951, and I would like to quote it: "It is hereby declared that the Parliament of Canada may from time to time make laws in relation to old age pensions in Canada, but no law made by the Parliament of Canada in relation to old age pensions shall affect the operation of any law, present or future, of a provincial legislature in relation to old age pensions. " Now it appears that the Federal Government has the authority to proceed with the plan that is now proposed, particularly Sec tion A of it. The resolution before us sets out a proposed amendment and I think I should read it, Mr.

Speaker; "It is hereby declared that the Parliament of Canada may from time to time make laws in relation to, (

a) old age pensions, and (

b) pensions and other benefits incidental to or conducive to the better operation and administration of, a scheme of old age pensions; but no law made by the Parliament of Canada under the authority of this

section affects the operation of any law enacted by the legislature of a province in relation to any of the matters specified in paragraphs (

a) and (

b) of this section. " Now if you will look at the present 94(a), that's the one that was enacted in 195 1, you will see that the Parliament of Canada, �'may from time to time make laws in relation to old age pensions in Canada", etcetera, etcetera. It is a recognized principle of

interpretation of statutes that the right to do a thing implies the right to do things that are incidental to it and the things that are necessary to reasonably and properly carry it on. In specific relation to constitutional matters the courts have held over and over again that Canada and the provinces can enact laws in relation to their respective spheres of jurisdiction, but those laws must relate to the relevant subject matter and must not deal wi th one matter under the guise of something else.

For instance, Canada could not deal with old age pensions under the guise of crim inal law merely by making certain penalties for the in fraction of the law. The court looks to the pith and sabstance of the legislation. Now with that kind of standard, are not other benefits incidental to or conducive to the better operation of ad ministration of a scheme of old age pensions, part of old age pensions ? If I had to argue a case as to whether these incidental matters are included in old age pensions, I would rather be on the side of the Domi nion Government than on the side who ever was questioning it.

In this connection note that (

b) of the new proposed

section 94(

a) as we have before us, is not nearly as broad as the discuss ions in the

preamble to the resolution before us. It is quite clear to members on this side of the House that the Prime Minister is using this consultation with the provinces and the requested amendment to the BNA Act as a device to delay action. The Prime Minister has been delaying the implementation of the contributory old age pension scheme ever since he was elected. Oh yes, he's talked about it all right.

On checking the Federal Ha nsards the other day, as recently as yesterday, I find that on January 13th, 1958 -- which is over four years ago now -- the House of Commo ns Hansard on page 3233 quotes the Prime Minister as this: "We in this government and party intend at the earliest possible date in addition to the present pension systems, to give full consideration to investigat ing the insurance system in United States to the end that we will bring about in Canada a rounded and effective contributory social security system over and above that which already exists. " Mr.

Speaker, more than four years after that statement, the Prime Minister has now learned that he must confer with the provinces to provide for Clause (

a) and (

b) of the resolution that is before us. It would appear to me, Mr. Speaker, that that much used and abused adage of this Page 358 March 5th, 1962

(Mr. Shoemaker, cont•d. ) ..... government, "Why didn't you do it when" would be approp r iate for us to use at this time. I do not intend at this time, Mr. Speaker , to argue the mer its of the proposed Liberal plan of contr ibutory pensio�;ts or co mpare them to what the federal government has in mind, for the si mp le reason that I don't know what the federal government has in mind in this field. I know so mething about the Liberal plan but, as I said, I do not intend to argue the merits of them. But surely, Mr.

Speaker, this province intends to recom mend to the federal government certain definite des irable regulations and provisions that must be inherent in a plan of this kind to insure that the people of this nation has a soc ial securit y program that is second to none. It is our in�ention, as I said before, to support this resolution on the si mple grounds that we don't want it delayed any further .

We say that it has been delayed now for four years which cert ainly is unnecessary, and I would very much li ke to hear what this government intends to recommend to the federal government when it's cons idering a contributory type of plan. MR. PAULLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to make one or two very brief com ments on this res olution. I think it is one of those types of reso lution that, no matter from what corner of the House it is proposed, should receive our support.

Pm not quite sure, and I have no great knowledge of law, but it would appear to me that in order to achieve the des irability of having a pension scheme in which the widows and the children of the contributors are able to partake of any of the benefits of the scheme, that it is necessary for us all across Canada to support this resolution.

It's my unders tanding that at the present time under The British Nort h Am erica Act the question of old age pensions per se is the premise of the federal government, and that they could inst(tute a contributory scheme without the necess ity of an amendment; but, however, for the benefits on the decease of the contri butor to go to a beneficiary, would require this amendment.

It's my underst anding at the present that it might be poss ible for the provinces individually to set up a scheme of the transfer of the benefits to the widows and children on a prov incial scheme -- but I don't think anybody would suggest that, Mr. Speaker , for a province such as Manitoba. So I say, Mr. Speaker, that it is a type of a resolution that we must pass here in the Province of Manitoba and it appears that in order to be enacted that all of the provinces in Canada must agree to it before an application can be made to Her Majesty's government.

This , of cour se, raises the very, very im portant matter of the rep atriation of the Constitution in Canada. I understand, however -- as a matter of fact I'm sure -- that later on in the delibera tions of this House the questions of the amendments to the British Nort h America Act, and the plac ing of the Constitution of Canada within Canada itself will be under discuss ion, and at that time we'll be able to discuss all of the broa d aspects of the proposal of the federal government in respect to the resti ng of the Constitution in Canada, and there's no need for any furthe r com ment.

But in order to achieve this steppi ng-s tone the House has the support of my group. I might say, Mr. Speaker, in passing com ment, I would suggest that we would far rather have had a resolution which dealt with all of the broad aspects of a com pre hensive health scheme, and we'll be discuss ing those points later on in the House, but in the meantime may I assure the Honourable the Minister of Welfare, the resoluti on introduced by himself has our support. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question? MR. GUTTORMSON: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Carillon, that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the mot ion carried. MR. SPEAKER: Com mittee of Supply. MR. ROBLIN: I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Industry and Com merce , that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a com mittee to consider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Mr. Speaker presen ted the motion. MR.

GUTTORMSON: The other day the matter of the trips taken by the Cabinet to rural parts of the province was raised by memb ers on this side of the House. MR. SPEAKER: I might inform the Honourable Member for St. George that he has al ready spoken in this debate. MR. GUTTORMSON: This is a new motion, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: I think not. March 5th, 1962 Page 359

Mr. Speaker put the question. , MR. MOLGAT: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Is it not a fact that each day when this motion is put it's a new motion? My understanding is that that is the case, in which case the honourable member wo uld have the right to speak. He couldn't speak twice in the same day, we 'd all agree to that. But I believe it's a new motion which simp ly comes back on the Order Paper daily. MR. ROBLIN: Mr.

Speaker, risi ng to the point made by my honourable friend, I must confess that when I first came into the House I was of the same opinion that he was, and I recall under simi lar ci rcumstances that I attem pted to intervene twice, as the Honourable Member for St. George is doing, under the former Speaker, Mr. Bachynski, and it was ruled at that time that I had exhausted my right to speak and I was out of order. So I give that experience to the House and suggest that probably Mr. Speaker is right in making the same ruling on this occasion. MR. MOLGAT: Could we have the rule that lays that out then Mr. Speak er?

MR. SPEAKER: Of course, it's covered somewhat by Rule No. 58 - "that only one amendment and one sub-amendment may be made to the motion for Mr. Speaker to leave the Chair and for the House to go into a comm ittee of supply or ways and means." That is si mi lar to the motion on our ways and means and also on the budget debate and on the Throne Speech debate, and it does appear that this motion is substantially the same in im port as the motion that is made for Mr. Speaker to leave the Chair to go into the comm ittee of ways and means , commi ttee of supply and also under the budget debate.

I might also recall that I do recall in my tenure as a member of the Legislature that under the Speq.kership of the Honourable Member for St. George, Mr. Bachynski, that a motion was denied in this House -- a speaker was denied the right to speak twice on this motion. MR. SPEAKER: Are you ready for the question. MR. MOLGAT: It seems to me that last year when we amended the rules it wa s agreed that precedent in this House was not to be the case, that if there was a rule in the book then it applies, but if there wa sn't a rule in the book then we went to Beauchesne.

Now the .rule that you read, Sir, No. 58, applies to "amendment to the moti on" . Unless my honourable friend was making an amendment, which I don't believe he was -- he wa s making a speech -- then it seems to me that Rule 58 does not apply to this particular case, and I can find no rule that says that this motion is not debatable. MR. ROBLIN: I know that as far as precedents are concerned, there is nothing in our rule book that says that previous precedents here must necessarily hold. On the other hand it doesn't rule them out altogether.

But I can give the House the information that wa s given to me by the Speaker at that time when he denied my right to speak tw ice, and it wa sn't on the grounds of

Section 58 that is mentioned here -- it was on the grounds that this is not a new motion, but that the originating motion was the one that wa s made the other day on which there was a debate, and that when Mr. Chairman of comm ittees begs leave to sit again, and the com mi ttee is not dissolv ed or suspended or put out of action -- that it is the same commi ttee, it's the same motion, and therefore cannot be debated twice, and it was on that ground that Mr. Bachynski denied me the right to speak on it some time ago and I should im agine that the same ground wo uld hold today. MR. D. L. CAMPBELL (Lakeside) : Mr.

Speaker, on the point of order, however, I should just remind my honourable friend, the Leader of the House, that since that time our rules have been revised and, as my Leader has mentioned, we have taken out of our rules the

section that made our usages and customs in the House, and precedents, a very impo rtant part of our rules; and instead of that we have decided to cover rules, as far as possible, by stating them specifically ln our own rule book, and to provide that where a case is not covered, that the rule of the Federal Parliament shall apply. My remembrance is , that in this case that we actually left out the rule that dealt wi th the point that my honourable friend has mentioned, so I suggest to you that we are definitely back to the rules of the House of Commons. I would fur ther suggest, Mr.

Speaker, that if you check their rules carefully, you wo uld find that in a si milar si tuation to this that there wo uld not be the restriction as to speaking only once, be cause, as the Honourable Member for St. George has mentioned, lt would be under those ci l· cumstances, in my opinion, a new motion. Page 360 March 5th, 1962

MR. PRE FONTAINE: Mr. Speaker, wi th respect to precedents of this House, I think that my memory serves me right -- I am quite sure that under the Speakership of the ex-mem ber for Rhineland, I was accorded the privilege of speaking twice on the same motion in 1950, I believe -- if my memory serves me right, and I am quite sure it does. I am quite sure the second time I spoke was wi th respect to the recording equipment I believe, and I think I spoke tw ice during the session of 1950 under the Speakership of the late Mr. Miller. MR. ROBLIN: Mr.

Speaker, it mi ght be that you'd like to take the matter under your notice and rule on it tomorrow . On the other hand, you mi ght be prepared to rule today. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Speaker, .. ......... take under advisement, I'd just llke to point out pn the point of order, that this motion does reappear every day and Is moved every day by the First Minister himself. The other motions on the order paper which are recurring motions , are not moved daily by the originator of the motion, they are merely read out by the Speaker and the debate is proceeded upon.

This one has to be moved each time it comes on the order paper by the original mover, and as such, in my opinion, constit utes a new motion each time. MR. ROBLIN: On that new point, I would just point out that in many Houses the Speaker merely leaves the Chair wit hout question being put when this item in the order paper is reached. It's just an automatic motion and, in my opinion, I must say for what it's wo rth, is that's the kind of a motion it is. However, this is something that the Speaker can decide and perhaps we' d be well advised to leave it to him. MR . PAULLEY: Mr.

Speaker, may I suggest that you cons ider Rule 234 and particu larly subsection 2 of that rule when you have this under advisement. I think under this that you may be substantiated. MR. SPEAKER: I mi ght say that I have given some consi deration to 234, subsection 2, which reads as follows: "No member is allowed to speak more than once on the motion. He cannot discuss all the matters which then come up and when he has spoken on one of them he has exhausted his ri ght to speak" - the motion before the House, namely that the Speaker do now leave the Chair. However, I wi ll take it under advisement.

I feel at the moment that possibly I am ri ght in this matter, but I may change my mi nd. MR. SPEAKER: Adjourned debate. Honourable Member ...... . MR. ROBLIN: I think, Mr. Speaker, it would be agreeable to put the motion to go into supply and get on wi th that portion, and reserving the honourable member's right to speak to morrow , if your ruling should permit him to do so. Mr. Speaker put the question and after a voice vote declared the motion carried and the House resolved itself into a com mittee to cons ider of the supply to be granted to Her Majesty, wi th the Honourable Member for St.

Matthews �n the Chair. MR. CHAIRMAN: Department 2 .... . MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I believe when we left our work on Friday that we were on item 6, and the First Minist er had just given us a report on the Comm onwealth Parliamentary Conference in Ottawa, or rather I should say, in London, and had taken the opportunity to give us mainly a debate on the matter of the European Common Market. I realize that according to the Throne Speech that this is su pposed to come up at a later date; however, I have not seen a resolution from the government yet.

Due to the fact that the First Minist er spent some time on it on Friday, I would like at this point to say something on this subject myself. MR. ROBLIN: .. .. ...... ............ before my honourable friend proceeds further, and point out that I had no wi sh to precipit ate a general debate on this subject because as the Throne Speech indicat es, there wi ll be a -- and I can tell my honourable friend -- a very broad resolution which I think wi ll permit discussion of every aspect of the Common Market at that time, and that to do so now would indeed have two debates on the same topic.

I would also point out to him that I did not initiate this discuss ion, but I spoke on request, givi ng what I hope, was a factual and not a provocative description of what took place which evolved around the Common Market. So I just wonder whether in the interests of proceeding in an orderly fashion, that we could not have our debate on the Common Market at the time which a resolution wi ll be intro duced which wi ll give very wi de latitude, in my op"tnion, and any part of the subject can be dis cussed. Otherwise we wi ll probably have the debate twice, which doesn •t really get us much further forward.

March 5th, 1962 Page 361

MR. MOLGA T: I assure the First Minis ter, Mr. Chairman, that my com ments are going to be very, very factual. He might find them provocative because in this case I think the facts maybe are such. But the fact is that he did, on Friday, proceed to give us an extended discussion on the EC M, in fact it extended over our normal adjournment hour and there was no opp ortunity at that time for any of us on this side to make our own views known on the sub ject.

I don't propose to repeat in the House on a number of occas ions the same speeches, but I think that when my honourable friends across the way come out with a subject, then that we should have certai nly the opport unity to discuss it at that time . And on that basis , and not wanting as I say; to make a speech now on the subject, make the same speech again, if he does present a resolution, I really feel that it would not in any way interfere wi th the work of the House. It's true that his reply the other day was, in a sense, at my request.

What I did re quest, however, was a report on the parliamentary conference and not necessari ly a debate at this time on the ECM -- but that's what I got. MR. ROBLIN: .. .......... ......... a blow by blow account of what took place there, and that's all. MR. MOLGAT: Well, then it must have been an ECM meeting that my honourable friend was at because that's the only part that I recall him discussi ng. MR. ROBLIN: Well, Mr. Chairman, that's exactly what's happened. I asked my honourable friend to believe me.

That was "The" topic of discussion and there were some fringe discuss ions on the other points that I did mention yest erday, namely technical education and that kind of thing, but for one reason or another that was "The " topic.

It wasn't planned that it should be -- the agenda included a great many things , but that's exactly what happened and I'm not trying to mislead my honourable friend when I tell him that what I gave him yester day, was the subst ance of what transpired, and I trust I did so in such a manner that it did not prejudice his views or, indeed, mine on the ultimate outcome of these matters or what we might say in the debate that will take place later on.

I only gave those remarks in res ponse to my honourable friend's request that he should have the report and I want him to believe that what I gave him was ju st to the best of my ability, a factual account of what took place rather than something that would challenge him , so to. speak, to put his views on record at this time. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, I don't want to carry on just discuss ions on points of order her e, we have some business to do and it's my interest as well as my honourable friends across the way to see to it that the business of the House does proceed.

However, he did start the discuss ion on EC M on Friday. Now we've been waiting for some time for some of the mat ters that appeared in the Throne Speech. We were told then that these things would be brought out by reso lution and that we would have an opport unity to discuss them. So far, very few of these matters have appeared on the Order Paper, Mr. Chairman, and we certainly don't want to be in a position where these things appear in the dying days of the sessi on and are pushed through without adequate discuss ion.

Once we get into es timates -- as my honourable friends know across the way -- it is a tough job for members of the Opp ositi on to keep up wi t h the amount of work that's required and the sooner we get notice of these things and the sooner we can get discuss ing them, the better the job that can be done in the interests of Manitoba and of this House. HON. GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry and Commerce) (Fort Rouge) : ... ...... . . . . . . that just as soon as my estimat es are com pleted, I propose to introduce the resolution. It's now comp lete, it's been com pleted only in the last day or so.

So within a week, I'm sure, the resolution will be introduced. MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, this applies to a number of other resolutions as well, and quite frankly, my reason for wanting to discuss ECM today is that I felt that the government is holding back on some of these things which they said that they would present to us. The Throne Speech covered everything that one might expect to have discussed in the sess ion and if it's simp ly going to be a cover-up to prevent proper discussion of these items , we are cer tainly obje cting to it.

On the assurance from the Minister that we will have a full discuss ion wi thin a week, I would prefer to forego my statements today on the European Common Market, but I want to make it very clear that we want these resolutions that have been promised to us on the Order Paper. I frankly do not see why it has to wait until the estim ates of my honourable friend have been discussed. Why couldn't it appear now ? I see no need to connect the two. Page 362 March 5th, 1962

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd. ) •.••. One ls of a federal nature of great importance to us which is the main reason that I want to get into a discussi on of it, because this affects the future of Manitoba and we have to get our views., and cert ainly any pressure that we can put on Ottawa, going on this; we can't wait any longer. Every day puts us in a more difficult position. MR. PAULLEY: Mr .

Chairman, I would like to support the contention of the Leader of the Offic ial Opp os ition in this, and I want to ensure my honourable friend oppos ite that had the Leader of the Liberal Party started a general debate on ECM, I was also prepared, and I'm sure that we wouldn't have got very far today wi th the items dealing wi th the estimat es of this department. I joi n wi th him in saying to the government that we should have these major res olutions as contained in the Throne Speech before us with all due dispatch.

I would also like to say this, that it is very, very hard, as the First Minister and the Minister of Industry and Commerce are well aware from past experienc e, very hard for us to contend with a num ber of resol utions at the same time dealing with very major problems .

I don't know, I'm sure, whether I have the full support of my honourable friend, the Leader of the Liberal Party, in this or not, that one's mind -- at least my mind -- isn't of such a nature that I can do justice to half a dozen major subject s at the same time, so I join wit h him in a plea to the members of the government to bring forward these resolutions as suggested that they will be doing, as quic kly as possible; not as we'v e had the experience in the past of having to deal with so many major items just prior to the time of the adjournment of the House. In th is , at least, Mr.

Chairman, there is a comp lete coali tion between the Liberal Party and the New Dem ocratic Party of Manitoba. MR. ROBL IN: Mr. Chairman, I'd just li ke to say that I'm in symp athy with what the honourable gentlemen are saying, and I can give you the program that we're trying to follow wi th respect to these resol utions . I think there are four of them yet to come.

One is on the Order Paper now, and it would be my hope that the one on the EC M would be down probably by the end of this week, and that we would try and do them about one a week, something in that neighborho od, so that we'd get one major topic before us at a time and allow members to con cent rate on that wi thout having the whole lot of them dumped on our desks at one time. But I think I can assure my honourable friends that a program of that nature is what we have in mind and we hope it will turn out to be satisfactory. MR. MOLGAT: Mr .

Chairman, first, referring to the com ments of my honourable friend, the Leader of the NDP, I would li ke to agree only that at times we have the same views but to disagree com pletely that we are ever in coalition. Insofar as what the First Minist er said, this would be agreeable to us if this procedure is going to be followed and they will be coming along promptly. I would only like to add one more thing -- I realize that we are away from the discussion, Mr.

Chairman, when we do this, but I think it's useful for us to have this discussion to clearly understand where we 're heading to in our work -- and that is, that if there is information, factual information going' along wi th these resoluti ons , if there are papers going along wi th them, that they should be made available to us as early as poss ible so that we can study them and have the full information. If we get them just at the same time as we receive the resolution, it's very difficult for us to make a proper analysis. So for this par tic ular case, Mr.

Chairman, I am prepared to forego my own sp eech today on the ECM. Pd just like to point out to the First Minist er , however, that if he had wanted to he could have said on Friday, hims elf, that this covered mainly ECM and that the res olution was com ing down and he was referring till then. However, I have no desire to hold up the House; I'm pre pared to go along on this basis. I don't guarantee that that will be the case all the time when my honourable friend brings in extraneous subjects. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 6 - passed. Resolution 7 - item 5. MR. E. I. DOW (Turtle Mountain): Mr.

Chairman, on Reso lution 6, the Honourable First Minister gave a list of the cult ural grants in connecti on with that. Would it be poss ible to get the other grants ? MR. ROBL IN: Yes, Sir, I'll be glad to give them to the comm ittee.

Under Health and Welfare grants the following: Manitoba League for the Blind, $100. 00; Canadian Welfare Council, $3 , 000; Last Post Fund, $250; Welfare Council of Greater Winnipeg, $2, 000; Heart Foundation -- that's included in the Dep artment of Health -- Indian and Metis Friendship Centre, $4, OO<l; Boy Scouts, $2, 500; Girl Guides, $2, 000; Commonwealth Parliamentary March 5th, 1962 Page 363

(Mr. Roblin, cont•d. ) ..... Asso c iation, $2, 300; Canadian Highway Safety Conference, $1, 200; Royal Canadian Humane As soc iation $100. 00; Unallocated, about $10, 000.00. We usually have, we have had a certai n sum unallocated because we get requests that we feel we should meet during the year that are not thought of at the present time. That gives us a total of $90, 000. 00. MR. CHAIRMAN: Res olution 6 - passed; Res olution 7, Ap propriation 5. MR.

REID: Res olution 7, No. 5 -- I notice the libraries• item for the year is - $1 71, 905 spent on libraries , but then all the grants for public libraries for the province is only $72 , 000. 00. In other words, Mr. Chairman, it's $99, 905 spent on provincial and departm ental libraries. I think myself this is out of proportion in com parison to the number of people us ing the same in com parison to public libraries, and I think that the am ount should be reversed for the people of Manito ba. MR. GRAY: Mr.

Chairman, at the outset I want to send my annual bouquet to Miss Morley and her st aff for the wonderful service they give, not only to the me mbers of the Legis lature, but to othe rs. My beef, however, is for years very, very little extra mo ney has been spent on books and periodicals. The budget is about the sam e for years. We have a $10, 000 increase this year, but that goes to histor ical research, which is very valuable .

I was just wonder ing whether the library, with its thous ands of books -- some of them perhaps are still very valuable, they are perhaps 40, 50 or 70 years old, but those books are not used, very seldo m, but current books·- - the world is growing; there 's a lot of new books on new ideas ; the development of the African countr ies ; the es tablishment of many countrie s, which in my opinion should be at the disposal of the public and particularly for the education of the honour able members, if they have it, for the education of myself personally.

And we see that year after year, year after year the budget for new books and periodicals are the same. They can't be used and even if they have one copy -- Pm trying to get a copy of som ething now because it's out and I couldn't get it -- should be enlarged. In other words , if the library is built for the benefit of the members and the benefit of those who seek more knowledge, I think we should provide them with the facilities to have it.

So while Pm very, very satisfied with the service of the library, I cannot see why they have not raised one cent almost, if you look over the last budgets for books and new books and periodicals. MR. CHAIRMAN: (a) - passed; (1) - MR. MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, before we le ave the matter of the prov incial library I cert ainly wOLlld want to make my comme nts about the value of the library to we members here in the House.

We've cert ainly found the m to be most co-o perative at all times in getting for us on very short notice , on occasions here in the House while we are sitting as well as between sessi ons , any of the material that the members need, and I would not want this occasion to pass by without tho se in our group -__ Pm sure I can say without any question of contradiction for every member of the House how very helpful the staff in our library here is and how much they make the work of the members both more practical and much more rapid in execution . MR. CHAIRMAN: (

a) passed; (

b) passed. MR. CAMP BELL: On (b) , Mr. Chairman, Departmental Libraries, how many are there of the se ? MR. McLEAN: It's the library that formerly served the Department of Health and Welfare , continues as one library serving both of the departments that are now separate departments . MR . CHAIRMAN: (

c) passed. MR . GRAY : Mr. Chairman , can I just have a word or two from the Minister who . very quietly and ask .him about the •.•..... education , what it is . Can he give us a comment why the project has not been increased for years for books and periodicals which are · coming out daily. MR. DOW: Mr. Chairman, on the question of regional library grants , I notice that this year is the same as last year which would indicate that the acceptance throughout the pro vince has not increased.

And pers onally I would like to see some form of promotion made throughout the province so that pos sibly more information was given to the public and the sc hemes that were enforced by this government to achieve them . Down in my constituency we have two regional libraries which are serving a very useful purpose and I would say, second Page 364 March 5th, 1962

(Mr. Dow, cont'd ,) , • , • to schools, they are used by all people including the very small youngsters to the very elderly people, and tbis particular phase of the educational system in Manitoba has much to commend itself and I feel that a great deal more promotion should be given to it with the idea of trying to get more of these regional libraries throughout the rural areas. Last week, Mr. Chairman, we were more or 1 ess, on this side of the House, given a lecture by the Honourable the First Minister assisted by the Honourable Minister of Agriculture in regards to simple arithmetic .

He pointed out that certain factors and phrases that had been used by members on this side that if we had taken a look at the yellow book, as he called it at that time, we could arrive at certain conclusions by a system of simple arithmetic .

But, Sir, over the weekend I had occasion to take a look on the annual report of the library for the Pro vince of Manitoba for 1961 and, Sir, if you will take a look on page 21, it amazes me that the Department of Education or the Minister in charge who's the Minister of Education would allow just a report of figures to be put out under the authority of the Government of Manitoba for a permanent record. If you will take the first two items which are straight addition -- $2 ,1 7 5 and $1, 450 , I can't see how you can get $4, 625.

The other item.of mills are reversed and then, Sir, · if you continue that along, to get an annual per capita cost in this particular library , you divide the population into the amount of money and instead of having $3 .ll it should be $2 .78. Now tbis particular library is in my own town and I have been interested on many occasions in trying to sell the library to other communities and I have made the mention that the annual per capita cost runs under $3 .0 0.

Now, Sir , if I had to refer to the 1961 report and sell it, it stares me in the face that I am kind of prefabricating a certain amount of government knowledge that is put out, If you will take the second line -- the Glenwood-Souris library , and you add $1 , 500 and $900 I can't see how you can get $1, 590 . It should be $2 , 400 in my way of figuri ng. The same tbing prevails when you go through and you divide the population into the total amount of contributions by municipalities in grants; instead of $2 . 04 , my figuring is $2 .37.

Now, Sir, if you go down to the Virden one and add the population figure , you find a discrepancy of 3, 000 people. I contend, Sir , that tbis report is absolutely useless in view of the fact that the figure s -- if you want to use the method of simple arithmetic -- and they're useless to me because I know they're incorrect and I suggest I don't know procedure but, Sir , I think that tbis particular page of tbis report should be withdrawn from the return and brought up-to-date properly.

I don't know whether it's in order -- I feel it isn't in order for me to move that it should be done so but I think the Minister will realize for an individual in public life to go out and refer to pub lic government documents and reports that are as incorrect as tbis particular page is, I feel that we should have no hesitation in making' our own figure s up because if this is an example, then how can we follow it? MR . CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman, I didn't catch the page that my honourable friend was speaking of. ·M R. DOW: Page 21, Sir. MR . ORLIKOW: Mr.

Chairman, I want to register my disappointment at the fact that the government is refusing to face up to what I think is its responsibility in enco_uraging the people of this province to read more.

There's a conf erence going on at the present time in Montreal -- Canadian Conference on Education -- and the reports wbich were prepared for that conference and reports which are coming from that confe rence all speak of the fact -- and I know that we'll deal with tbis in much greater detail when we get to the Education estimates - but all deal with the fact and make the one point that the Canadian people are not doing enough in the field of education, Now, Mr.

Chairman, education doesn't stop when a person fini shes high school nor does it stop when a person fini shes university, Education is a continuing matter. And if the people of this province are going to keep up-to-date with world events, if they'r e going to keep up-to-date with the matters in which they are interested, it's essential that we have modern well-equipped and well-stocked libraries.

Now surely we have learned the lesson -- tbis province is in various fields in welfare , in health and I suppose even in education, we're in the fields because the Federal Government set up a cost sharing program, They said, "We will pay money towards these program!? if the province will meet our grants." Now surely, Mr. Chairman, if we're going to advance as we ought to in the field of libraries, in the field of reading, the province ought to show the lead, Now I haven't the breakdown with March 5th, 1962 Page 365

(Mr. Orlikow, cont'd.) •..• me . I know that the amount of money which comes to a city like Winnipeg, like a metropolitan area, is a disgrace both in the actual amount ai1d in the percentages which are spent, but I'm not making a particular plea for the City of Winnipeg or the metropolitan area. It seems to me that there ought to be -- we ought to aim for the establishment of a well-organized, well-stocked library in every city and in every town in this province . And I don't mean in the year 2000 ; I don't mean 50 years from now; I don't mean 25 years from now; I mean in the next two or three years, Mr .

Chairman . Now I'm not surprised at local municipal counci ls . I hesitate to start something which they haven't had in the past. They're facing great difficulties in holding the tax line at the present level , just to keep existing services going, and so they're not rushing in many cases to get into this field, and it seems to me that if we want them in this field -- and I for one thing think it's an absolute neces sity that the Province of Manitoba has got to take the zipper off the financial purse and invest some money in this.

I think libraries are just as important as roads , and we're borrowing lots of money for roads and I want to sugge st to the members of this committee , Mr. Chairman, that we can afford to spend a good deal more than $62 , 000 in grants to help the local areas get started, and where they are started, in helping them to expand librarie s. Now it seems to me that this is something which the government ought to give early consid eration to, Mr . Chairm an. • ..• Continued on next page Page 366 March 5th, 1962

MR . PETER WAGNER (Fisher): Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask a few questions from the Minister on the mobile library. How often do they visit the towns, and how far they go and how long they stay, and what more or less is the impression the Minister gets -- whether it's beneficial and whether the people borrow these books and study. What is the attitude of the rural area on the library situation? MR . McLEAN: Mr.

Chairman, dealing with the questions that have been raised, the Hon ourable the Member for Kildonan said that the proportion of money in the total estimates should be reversed, and that would certainly be quite satisfactory. He will understand, of course , that a municipal or regional library does not become established until the people in the terri tory conc�rned have voted to have one, so that, of course , the amount that is spent for grants - depend upon, in that sense , upon the wishes of the people concerned.

If they were to vote in favour of the establishment of libraries, then the grant, the amount of money would increase and the proportion would � e changed. With respect to the Honourable the Member for Inkster, he is referring to the legislative library as distinct from the pUblic libraries that are available , and he says that very little is spent on books and periodicals. He is overlooking, I'm afraid, .the fact that large numbers of books and periodicals come to the legislative library without charge because it iS a depository library and receives many of its books without any cost.

I just might indicate that these are received from the Government of Canada, from the departments of the Government of Canada, a large number of them, part of the provinces of Canada, the United States federal government, the United Nations and the International Labour office, to mention only a few of those that supply these books and periodic als without charge. So that it is perhaps not entirely accurate to gauge the amount of material coming into the lib:rary by the amount of money that is spent on them.

The books that should be available to the general public, I think, are available in the various public libraries as distinct from the legislative library, which is a rather techni cal and special sort of library where it's not intended to have perhaps the type of books that the general public would like to have. The Honourable the Member for Turtle Mountain has referred to the need for promotion and of the establishment of libraries and I think that's a good point. There is, I think,a fair amount of promotion going on -- a great deal more than per haps is generally known. We try our best.

I think we must be quite frank and say we don't particularly receive a very warm reception and it hasn't anything to do with money; it's just perhaps a lack of interest in the formation of libraries, but I think that it is true that we must continue as we have been doing, the best we can to promote the establishment of libraries. Not being either a mathematician or knowing very much about money, I agree that page 21 of the annual report looks a bit odd. I can only say that I'll see what I can find out about it to 1 determine whether there is an answer.

On the face of it it doesn't appear to be correct. 1 With respect to the comment of the Honourable the Member for St.

John's, I wouldn't say if the municipal people or the people in our towns , municipalities, vote for the establishment of libraries, but no one would be happier than we to provide them with the monies that are available, but we can't compel people to read, and we must face the fact that there are rela-· tively small numbers of people who are really interested in the reading of books and, of course, your best example of that is the City of Winnipeg where you have excellent library facilities and all kinds of books available without charge to those citfz ens of the city, and you have what is after ·all a very low rate of use .

In other words, there is an inner motivation that must come which I suggest cannot be promoted with money. The mobile 'libraries -- the only ones that are operated in Manitoba are the libraries that are operated by the City of Winnipeg library. It moves about only in the city and I believe that they are used extensively in the territories in which they are used, and in that sense they are effective . We do not have in this province any mobile libraries that operate in any rural part of the province .

I, myself, would like to see one of the regional libraries establish a mobile library, because I think it would be useful to determine to what extent it would be accepted and how it would be used. I would be inclined to think that it would likely be used fairly well, but we have no experience in which to base any specific answer to that. I'm hopeful that sometime before too long we will have one of our regional libraries that will undertake the use of one of the mobile libraries.

Of course , in order to do that, you'd have to have a fairly large region, and I must say that our regions so far formed are not rea:lly large, and perhaps in some cases would not warrant the mobile March 5th, 1962 Page 367

(Mr. McLean, cont' d. ) ••.• library to serve it. MR . ORLIKOW: Mr . Chairman, I want to disagree completely with the Minister because the expe rience is precisely the reverse of what he says.

The number of people reading books in this city of Winnipeg and in the suburbs around Winnipeg was small and was declining as long as we were limited to thre e buildings in the city of Winnipeg, but as of the time that the city of Winnipeg built a new branch, built a branch on Osborne Street, built a branch on Cory don, opened the travelling libraries and particularly -- I don't know how the Minister could have missed the report which appeared, I think, last week with pictures as to the reactions to the downtown branch where the picture showed empty shelves -- the experience is that, and we have the same experience , Mr.

Chairman, in the suburbs of St. James, West Kildonan, St. Vital, St. Boniface; there may be several others -- I think Fort Garry -- which have opened branches. Where you open branches and where you give people the opportunity to get books without them having to travel for an hour on the bus , they will read and they will read in large quantities. That's precisely the experience we have, and I would like the Minister to give some consideration, some thought to the experience which we have . This is not theory, this is the actual practice .

Where we have moved to open up libraries, people have been more than will ing, they've been happy to read the books . The problem now is to have enough books in the library to meet the needs of the people and all I'm suggesting to the Minister is that he learn a lesson from the experience and to help.

There are many towns -- Beausejour, or stonewall -- I'm sure there 's towns all through the province that, if they could see a grant from the pro vince towards the purchase of books or towards the beginning of opening a library I'm sure that they would meet the challenge, the urging of the provincial government, and put up some of their own money, and I can't think of anywhere where the money could be better spent. MR . WAGNER: Mr. Chairman, I would like to continue a little bit on this rural mobile region which the Minister was speaking.

I felt that maybe at times the mobile unit did go out from the city, but now he tells me that it didn't go out of the city and it's a far cry that it should be established now, not sometime. It should take immediate steps in 1962 -- this com ing summer -- and see what can be done, because it seems to me as if the rural people are second class citizens as far as the library is CQncerned. MR. CHAIRMAN: (

d) passed •..•.• MR . MOLGAT: Mr. Chairman, the -- oh we passed (d) -- I'd like to ask the Minister , are there any changes or any proposed changes in the establishment of regional libraries? At the moment , two municipalities -- is it, say a rural and a village -- can join together and create a district? Are there any proposed changes in that? MR . McLEAN: No change. MR . MOL GAT: Mr. Chairman, on the same subject of regional libraries, I' d just like to acquaint the House with one regional library established actually in 1961 which will be opened ( in 1962 which I think is a departure in rural Manitoba.

I'm referring to the library which will be established in my own constituency in the village of Ste . Rose . It will be the first bilingual library in rural Manitoba . The rural municipality there and the village got together and started that in the past year, and the books will be split evenly between French and English books , and there '11 also be a

section of German books for the German population in the area. This was done by agreement of the local board, and as I say, so far we cannot report on the success of it because it hasn't actually opened, but I think it's interest ing that this is the first one to be developed in the province. I think it's an intere sting development. MR . CHAIRMAN: (

d) passed. Resolution 7 passed .••.. MR . D. L. CAMPBELL (Lakeside) : Mr. Chairman, I have a few remarks to make on (d). I'm sure that the Minister will not be astonished that I have a few remarks to make in connection with (

d) because I see that he has been paying some attention to the metropolis of Flee Island and (Interject ion) -- F 1 e e Island -- and I suppose that in spite of the intere sting subject that it is that we can't expect the Honourable the Minister to be conversant with all of the details . I wonder if he could tell me , though, the difference in the Order-in-Council that has been passed and the one that was rescinded dealing with these historic sites and perhaps that one in turn. In other words , could we get the history of what has happened here ? HON .

GURNEY EVANS (Minister of Industry & Commerce)(Fort Rouge) : Mr . Chairman, I think it might be rather more my subject -- (Interjection) -- Yes it is; I can answer my Page 368 March 5th, 1962

(Mr. Evans , con t'd.) .••• honourable friend, that there was no change made by the Order in-Council but merely lis ted down in one place and gave the legal description of the land re specting the historic sites that do exist now . Then we are reviewing the list to see what , if any, further steps are required to preserve them and to make sure that people are warned that any desecration of the ground or any alteration of the ground is certainly to be avo ided and might even be puni shable in certain circumstance s. . MR . CAMPBELL: Mr.

Chairman , I think that the latter part that the Honourable the Minister mentioned is included in the Act itself, and is it not a !f1:9t that these had previously been declared historic sites? I well remember that they were mapped and certainly my own remembrance is that they were declared historic sites for the purpose of protecting them just as the Minister has mentioned. One point that I wanted to mention, though, is that this list, too, in the general area-- there is a third one -- this one , Manitoba Gazette regulation 9/62 lists the Flee Island Indian entrenchment; then it lists the St.

Ambroise Indian entrenchment. There is a third one in between the two in the St. Marks area. My guess _would be that it was included in the original order along with the others , although I'm not certain of that. I would think that it's approximately in the same stage of preservation as the others , though I've not seen the St. Marks or St. Ambroise entrenchment for several years. I see the Flee Island one quite frequently because I make it a point to go in there to be sure that I don't miss the location . It hasn't been well taken care of; it has been mapped, as the Honourable Minister may know.

It has been mapped. I believe that applies to the others as well . The description that's given, the legal description so far as the Flee Island entrenchment is given, is a very long and intricate description and it concludes by saying that it contains 2. 06 acres. I was wondering if this Order-in-Council also provides a roadway in to the site because people can't get there without a great deal of difficulty.

If there was going to be any use made of it as a historical site I would think it would need a means of ingress and egress , if those are the proper terms , and 2.0 6 acres wouldn't seem to give very much. _ In the case of the St. Ambroise Indian entrenchment, there seems to be 5 acres appropri ated. My remembrance is that they're very similar in size . It's quite odd that they should be. They're roughly circular; they're approximately lOO yards in diameter. I have stepped them -- thatis a method that we farmers use in measuring -- and I would say they're awroximately lOO yards in diameter.

I notice that the one with regard to the Flee Island entrenchment men tions all that portion of north-east quarter

section 13 , Township 13 , Range 6 West. Not all of it is on that quarter section. This description is so involved that I can't be sure just what it covers but if it covers only the part on the north-east of 13 -13 -6 , it hasn't got it all , unless the line fence is in the wrong place , because the line fence at the half mile line at the south side of that quarter

section goes across a small portion of that entrenchment. Now , I'm going to cross my honourable friends up who have been expecting me to deliver my usual oration on the history of Flee Island, and not tell them about it at all . I'm really going to disa ppoint everyone. But I would mention something that I have perhaps not told the House before. That is , our friend Al Hockbaum, who is in charge of the Delta Research Station, has developed into a very qualified historian of that area as well as a specialist on game birds in particular and wild life in general .

And among the objects of historical interest has been this old entrenchment, and the others that I have mentioned, and some other items of considerable historic interest, the position of the old original graveyard of the local Indians in that area.

And in his checking on this location of the Flee Island battlefield he discovered that it is very, very close to a place that he considers tremendously important, because he tells me that it is the traditional mating ground of the ruffed grouse, that they come every year to the same place , that for those who have observed the ceremonies in that connection, the fights and the sounds that take place , that it's to orni thologists and to nature lovers in general and particularly to those who are interested in the ruffed grouse, that it's a matter of consider able importance .

And that famous ground where , Al tells me , the ruffed grouse have come for centuries on end, happens to be within a stone's throw, or thereabouts , of this old entrench ment. So it might be well if a mark�r is going to be put up any time there, it might be well to contact Al Hockbaum, who is a top-flight historian of the area now , and get him to make some comments on interesting points that might be raised in that connection. Now even if you coax me that's all I'm going to tell you about Flee Island today, and I'm not going to tell you any more about St. Marks either.

But it lies halfway between Flee Island March 5th, 1962 Page 369

(Mr. Campbell , cont' d.) • • • • and St. Ambroise. There is an entrenchment in that area. I'm not certain of the place -- I would guess it's on

Section 11 of the next Townsh ip, next both north and east, but that's only a guess , but when we're doing it we mi ght as well protect that one too. And the St. Ambroise one -- the last time that I saw it, it was in the best state of pre servation of the three of them. I would suggest that they should be protected by fencing soon, and in the case of the Flee Island one particularly, there will have to be some compensa tion made to the owner because he is farming close to the place, even though it's quite stony , but whether there needs to be any great amount of compensa tion made in either of these cases, the one in the St. Marks area lies close to the centre of a

section . It wouldn 't be easy to get to, but they need to be protected, particularly the St. Marks and St. Ambroise on es, because livestock running over will tramp them out pretty soon. And if they aren't protected fairly soon, nobod y's going to believe me that they actually existed there and I want something beside my own reiteration in this House to mark the site. So I suggest to the Minister that he prepare to get some actual protection in the form of fencing put up -- and the owne rs no doubt would need to be contacte d in that regard.

And then at least for two of them, perhaps all three, that some arrangements be made for markers, because this is part of the history of the provinc e and I'm suggesting that at least two, maybe three, should be preserved and by all means the Flee Island one . MR. EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I thiilk among the historic things that must be preserved are the speeches that come year by year from the Honourable Member for Lakeside on the sub ject of Flee Island , and I would think that that would be incentive enough for us to undertake the preservation of these sites. I'm not able to tell him whether St.

Marks was include d in the original orders or not. If there are in fact entrenchments of this kind that have not come to our notic e, they should be looked at. I'll undertake to see that that is done . There was nothing provided in the Order-in -Council respecting access roads . That matter is unde r separate jurisdiction -- as a matter of fact the Department of Min es and Natural Re sources have that respons ibility and these sites will be in their plans . Whatever degree of priority is given to it I do not know .

The question of the difference in size of sites is something that I had not heard discussed before. However, I'll refer this matter to the Historic Sites Advisory Board and get their views .

I'm very inte rested in the idea that this ground is close to or might be added to by the mating ground of the ruffed grouse, because not oilly for ornith ologists but for others as well this is a combination surely of education and experience of natu re, as well as being a tourist attraction . -- (Int erjection) -- Ind eed it has, and whether these creatures are of a shy na ture and might tend to limit their activities if gazed upon by too many tourists , I don't know, but that's part of the responsibility we have in looking into it.

I thiilk I can assure my hon our�ble friend that we are very much int erested in this subject ; that it's being studied at the present time, and he has put his finge r, I thiilk, on one of the things that must be looked into and that is the rights of the people who own the land now .

There is one case -- no need to name it - where the gentleman on whose property -- at least I'm not right in saying that; I thiilk the pro perty is actually owned by the Department of Veterans Affairs , but it is being farmed by a farmer in that area, and really I'm sorry to have to report that a part of the entrenchments have already been affected by the agricultural operations there. Nevertheless we intend to pro ceed as quickly as we can to see that no more is damaged. MR. CAMPBELL: Mr. Chairman , it hasn't been affected seriously.

I visited this place last summer and I thiilk there's no damage done as yet, but any time that an area is grazed - and that one isn't as frequently as the other two -- any time that they're grazed and with the stock going down and out it adds to the disfigurement of it very quickly. I intended to mention when I was on my feet before, Mr.

Chairman, that there is another historical site close by the Flee Island Indian entr enchment because it's exactly a half a mile south of that line fence that I was speaking of -- it runs right through the entrenchment -- it' s exactly a half a mile south of there on the very corner where four sections meet, that the orig inal road of the Canadian Pacific Railway ran. It crossed exactly at that corner runn ing a little bit north of east you can still see -- and in the Muir

section you can still see a little bit of that old right-of-way. And that was the original line , and it started to bend fairly sharply. That Page 370 March 5th, 1962

\ I (Mr . Campbell, cont'd.) •••• old original line had followed roughly along the gravel ridge that goes pretty well straight west of Warren, Manitoba, and having followed along that gravel ridge , which of course was one of the shor es of receding Lake Ag assiz , when it got to that area it started and bent in towards Portage La Prairie . And I imagine that perhaps the Honourable Member for Portage La Prairie may have seen some of those old areas of the original railway.

It may be well to suggest to the people when they are out looking it over that they can still see some of the old original right-of-way and part of it is right at the corner south of this entrench ment . So just another thing for which Flee Island is quite famous . MR . DOW: Mr. Ch airman, it would appear today that most of the historical sites in Manitoba .are centred around the Lake side constituency and Portage La Prairie . But I would like to draw the attention of the House to one particular trail, that was so very important to southern Manitoba that is gradually becoming obliterated.

The Speaker of the House is so well acquainted with it that what I may say he may have some degree of variance with it , but it is what was known as the Old Commission Trail which started at a point originating at the Red River near what is now Emerson. And the people that homesteaded in the southwestern part of Manitoba travelled by oxen through what they called a commission trail, for they had to travel from that particular point to the first land registry office which was situated in the foot hills of the Turtle Mountain at a point about six miles southeast of Deloraine .

Now that parti cular trail wandered through various properties as they are so cultivated now, but I would suggest, Sir, that some type of markage, some type of drawings on markings should be estab lished, because at this point the people that have some knowledge of it are fast disappearing and it has been ·referred to in many historical writings in the province but to my knowledge there's no marking or any indication showing the start, the end and the territory of which it travelled through . MR . ARTmJR E. WRIGHT (Seven Oaks): Mr . Chairman, under this

section item (

d) Archives and Historical Research, I notice the only increase here is for salaries and that is $5, 000. Now I asked the First Minister the question the other night about the appropriation for historical sites, and he led me to believe that somewhere in the budget would be an increased amount for historical research. Now in view of all the development that's going on at Grand Rapids · and in this day and age when modern construction goes on at such a pace , I'm just hoping that this $5, 000 is not the only amount that we have for this most vital work of Grand Rapids . MR . SHOEMAKER : Mr .

Chairman, on Thursday or Friday last, I quizzed the Honourable the Minister of Industry and Commerce on the two historic sites that have been declared at Arden and I understood him to say that he would elaborate on the program that he has outlined for these areas under his estimates. I suppose that would be on Industry and Commerce . Will we discuss them now or shall we wait until we do reach the Minister's estimates? MR . EVANS: Mr. Chairman, I'm very glad -- I see the honourable member has left his chair but I'll be very glad to give consideration to the matter of the Old Commission Trail and I refer it to the.

Historic Sites Advisory Board for their consideration as to its historic importance. My honourable friend from Seven Oaks raised the question as to whether the $5, 000 that's in the estimates constitute all the funds that are available for historic preservation work and so on at Grand Rapids.

That has not been the case and I think the Honourable the Treasurer the other day indicated that othe r funds have been applied to this work, and indeed if my under standing is correct, a good deal of the funds comes from the Hydro-Electric Board up there who have provided an amount for various purposes up there , apart from building the power plant itself, which is available for matters of this kind and they have indeed provided funds for it . Now as to my honourable friend for Gladstone, I'm not aware that I indicated that I had further information to give with respect to -- was it the development at Arden?

MR . SHOEMAKER: Yes MR . EVANS: Did I say so? MR . SHOEMAKER : Now, Mr . Chairman, I understood the Minister to say when I quizzed him as to what was planned at the Arden Ridge site that he would discuss it further on his estimates and I thought that he meant the estimates under the Department of Industry and Commerce. The Neepawa Press, the last one , carries quite a little story on it: "Two historic March 5th, 1962 Page 371 ! . '

(Mr. Shoemaker, con't .) ••.• sites proclaimed at Arden, " and gives a little account of it, and I just wonder if the Minister can tell us now what is planned for that area. For instan ce, Mr. Chairm an, the site would be about two miles north of the Arden Ridge filling station . I wonder if the Minister intends to put a marker up on the highway to indicate where this site is because it could develop into quite a tourist attraction. And then you will recall, Mr .

Chairman , too, that at the la st ses sion I started to give members of the House quite a historical back ground on one of Manitoba's sodbusters , namely Adam McKenzie , and they stopped me at that time because they sa id that I was discussing it under the wrong item . Now, Pl:lrhaps a marker or a monument of some kind could be erected in that vicinity to show that this is the spot where Adam McKenzie lived so many years because I think that this site , or one of them that has been · declared is on ground that Adam McKenzie owned and it would be suitable , I suggest, to pro bably work the two in together.

And then too, Mr . Chairm an, I think at the last sessi on of the Legislature -- not the fall one, I me ant the one a year ago -- there was some mention made of the fact that some time during 1961 there would be five markers go up to mark Pelly Trail , wasn 't it, or Perry Trail . I think one of the markers was to be in the vicinity of Neepawa. Now it hasn't been erected to my knowledge and I wonder what went awry with the plans for that ? MR . EVANS: Mr . Chairman, if there are no further questions I shall be glad to re fer this recommendation about the Arden Ridge to the Board. We depend on them for advic e.

In respect to the Perry Trail , I'm not able to answer whether or not last year we in dicated that this trail would be marked. My understanding would have been, or my memory is this , that it was certainly on the list for consideration and I'm not sure that I intended to say, if I did say, that it would be marked in the year between. However, again I will ask the Board to review this item and place it in their list of priorities. MR . MOLGAT : Mr . Chairman, if the Minister is taking recommendations for mark ings I would like to give him one as well.

This is one that has been discussed as far as I know for a long time , and it's the Manitoba House settlement , the original Hudson's Bay Post on the shores of Lake Manitoba in the vicinity of Kinosota -- I'm sure this one the Historical Society is well aware of -- and requests have gone in at various times to have this site ma rked. There's still some indications of the original post and it was for a long period of time , as I know it, the headquarters for the fur trade in that whole area, points from which some of the northern expeditions started, so if he would make note of that one.

I wonder too if, while we're on the subject of historical sites, the Minister could re port to us at this time on the Grand Rapids situation . Has everything been done there to pre serve the sites that existed and the material there? I know that they had some people from the United State s, I believe , last year to do some work. Are there still works going on and what is the situation now? MR . EV ANS: I wonder if my honourable friend would allow me to get together the latest information on that ?

I must confess that I didn't recognize that this was going to be in the estimate s today and I'll be glad to answer on my own estima tes, say the Provincial Secre tary , when we come to them, perhaps-later on this evening. MR . MOLGAT: That will be agreeable to myself . I would like to know exactly the situation on Grand Ra pids because I think a fair amount of work was done there. The question was asked about the increase in this department for appropriation. Does this indicate an increase in the staff in that department ? MR . McLEAN: ...•• .•.• one person. MR . MOLGAT : Who will be doing historical research?

MR. McLEAN: Yes. MR . MOLGAT : At what point does the First Minister intend to discuss the question of the 1967 celebrations and also the 1970 celebrations which I think we should start anticipa ting now? We will have , in a sense , two birthdays for Manitoba -- the '67 being the overall Ca nadian one, but then our own provincial centenary is following right along behind that and I think we should start making plans for that now. MR . ROBLIN: It is not our intention to initiate a discussion on this matte r at this session.

We have some time ahead of us, as members will re:;tlize , and we were expecting that we would have our own plans brought forward next year and we would be glad to have any Page 372 March 5th, 1962

(Mr . Roblin, cont'd.) •••• suggestions at that time as to how they could be improved and generally debate the matter in the House, but we are not prepare d, we have not rea ched the stage yet where our ideas are sufficiently firm that we would pre sent them to the Chamber . We think that probably we will be able to do that next year . MR . MOLGAT :. Is it the inten tion of the government to combine the two or will there be two separate activit ies involved? MR. ROBLIN : It's not firmly settled yet , Mr . Chairman. It will largely depend, I thi nk , on what kind of a way in which we will mark the occa sions .

It may be that there will be in effect really two official celebrations -- three years ap art -- but some of the ma in projects may be a one-for-two proposition beca use of their size and nature , but that matte r I must ad mit has n�t yet been finally settle d because until we have our own ideas a ·little more firmly sketched out we wouldn't' be in a position to make any recommendation to the Cham ber. MR. CHAIRMAN: Resolution 7, passed. Department Ill - Treasury, Resolution 8. Appropriation 1 • • • . MR. GRAY : Mr. Chairman , I want to direct a question under the Minist er's salary .

Before doing it however, I would app recia te if the House would permit me to say a few words leading to this question. During the depression years in Winnipeg, particularly in 1933 when there were almost half of the population partly or wholly on relief, the relief system at that time was conducted by the powers-that-be in the city council at that time who had no knowledge of any kind how to handle relief in an emergency and how to handle the relief in general .

The system was to give them ••• first of all a man has to wait for hours in the cold sheds some where on Ellice Avenue there and wait for an interview; they were considered as beggars al though there were quite a few intelligent people on relief -- professionals , storekeepers and others -- and they were comp�lled at the time to work for the misera ble relief they got. In other words , work all day for the 60� or 70� a day allowance they received.

At that time they had applic ations from barbe rs, small storekeepers, bank clerks who .wanted just a month's rent or two months• rent which would help them to get through and make su bs istence on their own. · But the wise men at that time refused. They say you have to close up your barber shop, close up the small storekeeper, the small store , or close up your small business and go on relief. · A few dollars rent , two or three months' rent would have helped them but it was refused on the old style charitable system they had at that ti me . In 1930 , in that year I suggested in Council -- and here 's an

article from the Free Press verifying it, and you could trace the re cords of the city council -- to esta blish a municipal bank to enable, first of all , have a bank that would consider applications for loans on the basis of need and the basis of character and honesty and not on the basis of security. And that proposition passed council; it came into the Legis lature ; it passed first readin g, second rea ding; it was referred to the Committee of Law Amendments . That was in 1933 . At that time there was an MLA here -- a very high class scholar , educa tionally, and also a man who was sincere in public life .

He was one of the greatest Conservatives I have known at that time and this is the late -- may God bless his soul -- the late Mr . Evans , the fat her of the Minister of Industry and Commerce, and he made this statement :"You are perfectly right but we are not yet ready for private ownership. " And he moved that the bill be not reported. Later when I came into this House there was a shortage of money and the Provincial Treasurers had to wear out the knees of their pants to go down to the United States and kneel before the almi ghty American dollar to borrow money and pay high interest .

If I'm not mistaken, they paid as high as 6%, and at the time that I came into this House I understand they still had bonds which bear the interest of 7 percent . I don't know what they have today; we'll hear about it lat er. And then I suggeste d, sell bonds over the counter.

There's a lot of people here that would trust -- the 80 0, 000 people of this province, they will trust a million of cultiva ted land; they will trust all the natural resources we have ; the rail ways , the lakes, the fish, everything, and they would buy money from you at a rea sonable in terest, not much more than you have to go and beg on the America n market, which was not accepte d to the .• , •••• , to Conservative s. Finally, a couple of years ago the present Trea surer made a trial.

He didn't expect to get much money; he limited a certain amount, but he succeeded many, many millions of dollars more than he anticipate d and expected. I bought bonds here for the few dollars I had from my insura nce , and I was asking the Minister to sell me more and whether I had a right to sell. So now I'm coming back to the very sa me point and March 5th, 1962 Page 3 73

(Mr. Gray, cont'd. ) .••. it's not too late to ask for forgiveness of the wrong decis ion in the years gone by -- the decision in the hungry years which the wise men at that time didn't want to do it and didn't want to save thousands of dollars -- not only this, save the morale and save the dignity of the people . No. They're giving them a little slip for six loaves of bread or a half an onion. That is cheaper than helping them to get re-e stablished. So I come back direct to my question now .

I'm not suggesting a provincial bank because the banks now getting less and less are too powerful to allow us to do it, although it would have been a good idea and I think in years to come they will probably think about it.

But right now, instead of dec iding having another campaign and paying interest to the brokers and spend thousands of dollars for advertising, why not open up a simple office downtown, or even in this buil ding , and tell the public , "If you have $10. 00 to save , if you have $100 .0 0 to save , come to the most secure , most secure place and put in your money, and you will soon accumulate in the millions , in the hundreds of millions , because the banks have it and we are stronger than the · banks, and then we won't have to worry every day..

Where are we going to get our money tomorrow ?" Which lender will accept us , and if, God forbid, there is a failure of crop, immedi ately they'll say, "Well the province is not secure ." Mr. Speaker, the province is the best security , by the people that live in the province , by the land that we have cultivated in the pro vince , by the natural resources and by our tradition that in the last 70 years the province of Manitoba has not failed to pay its debts even at a high interest.

So I direct a question now to the Treasur er , whether you'll be thinking about it; whether it's possible; and if so , when will it be done ? MR. REID: Mr. Chairman , I've looked through the estimates and only see one classi fication in this department again but a substantial raise in salary estimates. Now I was wonder ing if this is due to general increase for all staff concerned, but when I looked through the re cords further I see a new position has been established and I imagine it's in this department.

It's called the Assist ant Finance Officer, but I wouldn't imagine that $21 , 045 would be remuner ation for this position. MR. ROBL IN : Mr . Chairman, in answer to the Honourable Member for Inkster, I have to acknowledge that ever since I took this position that I have now , he's been one of those who encouraged me to go ahead with the Manitoba Savings bond idea, and as everyone knows we did last year , and it turned out very succes sfully, and as stated in the Throne Speech we intend to do so again this year before very long and I'll be making an announcem ent in the House about it one of these days .

Although it's by no means exclusive information, it' s the kind of thing that is made as a matter of routine by the Tre asury Department, rather than through the in strumentality of the Hou se . But I think that's about as far as we're going to go at the present time . It's interesting to note that last year , apart from our utilities, we found that practically I all of requiremen ts. ind eed , were taken care of in this way. . . In reply to the Honourable Member for Kildonan, I can tell him that the salary expenses are general increases; that there's no particular post that is responsible for them .

The finance officer that he refers to, I think, is one under the jurisd iction of the municipal board and handles municipalitie s, their financial problems, rather than the ones here . MR. MOLGAT : Mr . Chairman, while we're still on the general subject, is the First Minister going to make a general report on the department at this stage? MR . ROBLIN: I'll try to answer any questions as best I can, Sir . MR . MOLGAT : There 'll be no minister's statement then I take it. This opens up , when we enter the Treasury Department, a very wide field , of course , Mr. Chairman.

I don't intend at this stage to go into a discussion of the tax rental agreements and so on. That will be coming up later on , and there's no need to have a duplicate discussion. There are some matters though that I would like to discus s. Last week we had a brief discussion on the matter of the treasury bills put out by the province , and at that time I was discuss ing with the Minister the matter of putting them out on bid.

Since then I have checked further into this subject and I find that subse quent to the treasury bills being put out by the Province of Manitoba here , the City of Winnipeg issued treasury bills of its own, round about the end of February, or the second or third week in February . And these were put out, Mr . Chairm an, on a straight bid basis. I understand that they simply got on the phone and contacted a few dealers, six or seven, and told them that they had a million Page 374 March 5th, 1962

(Mr. Molgat, cont'd .) •..• and a half dollars which they wanted on a 60 -day basis and pro ceeded to get bids immediately from all of them. The bids were very close but there was some variation. They ran from 99.882, which was the successful bidder, down to 99. 886. I haven't got the percentages worked out but these were the buying prices. All of them with the exception of one were bid without commission. One bid at a somewhat higher price but then put in a $60 0. 00 commission •. And this was done here in the City of Winnipeg with these firms.

There were no difficulties apparently; it was a straight bid basis , and I can't understand why the province cannot follow the same procedure. I'm told that this is done in other areas as well .

While it's true that the Province of Manitoba is probably the first province to go into this type of financing, the City of Vancouver has done this previously; apparently the City of Kingston has on various occasions and certainly the experience here with our own City of Winnipeg with a somewhat larger amount than what the government itself was doing, admittedly on somewhat shorter term -- 60 days instead of 91 -- but it was still done on a bid basis, and I wonder whether the Minister would care to comment on that. MR . ROBLIN: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I will comment and say that we do exactly the same thing.

When we get relatively small amounts, and I know it seems rather peculiar to talk about a couple of million dollars as relatively small amounts because they're enormous amounts , but in terms of the kind of operations that governments, municipal, provincial and federal do, these are not large sums, nor are they large sums in terms of the market.

So that when we get what we call a roll over of a short term funding requirement , either for 60 days, or perhaps for as long as a couple of years, we very frequently do exactly what the Ci ty of Winnipeg do; nainely, we get in touch with the dealers who might be interested and get a series of bids on that particular operation, which we then give tci the lowest bidder. So that kind of an operation is one with which we are familiar .

Now I know that members may have trouble in distinguishing a real difference between that kind of operation and the sort of treasury bill one, but in terms of the market there is, and that is , that we hope to establish the kind of thing we are doing under treasury bills, not as a one-time proposition, or as an infrequent proposition, depending on the circumstances -- which is the case with these things that my honourable friend is talking about -- but as a permanent part of our financing system that we regularly float once a week.

Now, I come back to my point that I'm not at odds with him and I think that quite soon we will be able to go over to the bid basis on this and, frankly, if we do, and when we do , I'll much prefer it. I can only say that one has to be guided, in the beginning at any rate, until some experience is developed when one is trying to establish something that is basically new to the . • . . , as this one is, one has to be guided to a considerable extent by the kind of ad- l, vice that's given, and by those who ought to know.

And I must confess that while I hold the office of Treasurer, no one.would ever accuse, me, l think, of being an expert in the mechan ism of the financial market. So, as other treasurers have done, it's necessary to pay consid erable attention to the advice we get. And I repeat again, that our advice was that in trying to establish this as a regular operation in the market that we would be well advised to operate on what is sort of a semi-bid basis, namely, we have two firms and we deal through them.

But I agree with my honourable friend the desirable thing on this thing is to have it on a straight bid basis, and just as soon -- and it may not be very long -- that we feel that we can embark on that, well, we'll be glad to do so. MR . MOLGAT : Mr. Chairman, I don't want to belabour this point. The net cost to the government, I don't think will vary greatly in all probability, but I just don't see the reason ing for having gone in the first place, on not having gone in the first place, on a bid basis. My honourable friend says that it's new. Well it's only new so far as the Province of Manitoba is concerned.

It's certainly been used in Ottawa for a long time, and the facts are that other cities have used it and it's a common method in the financial market. So it's well-known. It may be new in the sense that the Province of Manitoba has not used it before. He says he con sulted and got the advice that it should be done through two firms. Did he consult other firms apart from those two? The two firms involved I would imagine would tell him that it should be done that way. Other firms, had they been consulted, I think would probably tell him other wise.

Certainly any investigations I have made lead me to think that the majority of the public , or the firms involved, would think that it should be done on the bid basis. So why simply take March 5th, 1962 Page 375

(Mr. Molgat, cont' d.) .••. the ad vice of these two firms and not the advice of the other people in the market? MR . ROBLIN: I agree , Mr. Chairman, that one shouldn't, nor did we . When we were considering putting this up, the Deputy Treasurer made an extended visit to Toronto, Montreal and to Ottawa, where he spoke with all the leading figures in the financial world, as far as I under stand from his report to me , a pretty widespread discussion. And he also re viewed it thoroughly with the Bank of Canada because it was very importa nt to find out what their reaction to this was. And then I may say, just so we

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	26-5-17
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	26th 5th hansardpdf 17.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	247946c20858839a70bffa36d4f0127e8d9c2f1a

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