Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 69A (31st Legislature, 3rd Session)

31-3-69a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

• .. ; t .. .. • - ISSN 0542 - 5492 Third Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 28 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL. XXVII No. 69A 2:30 P.M. Monday, May 28, 1979 Office of the Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

- .. .. , .. Time: 2:30 p.m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, May 28, 1979 OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Russell): Before we proceed, I should like to draw the honourable members' attention to the gallery , where we have 20 students from God's Narrows School, under the direction of Miss Adamson. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Churchill. We have 35 students of Grade 6 standing from the Boissevain School, under the direction of Mr. Somers .

This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Mines, Resources and the Environment. We have 20 students of Grade 5 standing from the Wabowden School, under the direction of Mr. Mihaylk . This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Thompson, the Minister of Labour. We have 27 students of Grade 6 standing from James Nisbet School, under the direction of Mr. Dedenus. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Seven Oaks. We have 35 students of Grade 8 standing from Nordale School, under the direction of Messrs. Kazina and Skabar.

This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for St . Vital. And we have 15 students of Grade 7 to 9 standing from the Hugh John McDonald School, under the direction of Mr. Furtado . This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. On behalf of all the honourable members, we welcome you here this afternoon. Presenting Petitions ... . Reading and Receiving Petitions ... Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . HON. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to table the Annual Report of the Alcoholic Foundation of Manitoba for the year 1978. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney) introduced Bill No. 65,

An Act to amend The Mineral Taxation Act. Recommended by the Lieutenant-Governor) ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Health and Social Development. Can the Minister confirm that, in fact, his government is proceeding on a course of action which will require graduates from nursing to work for a six-month period of time in Manitoba's hospitals without pay . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . MR. SHERMAN: No, Mr. Speaker. In fact, just the opposite. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition .. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, can the Minister confirm that in an address to the Manitoba Association 4671

Monday, May 28, 1979 of Registered Nurses in Brandon , that he did as Minister of Health indicate that he fully endorsed the establishment of a six-month clinical practicum for student nurses as a method to provide job orientation in the complexities of the health care system ? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker , I can confirm that , and I can also confirm that I sent a clarifying telex to the executive of the MARN following that address , because of some misunderstanding apparently by some members of the executive of the implications of that statement.

I had met with the MARN executive just two weeks previous to that . We discussed the whole concept - what I was talking about, was paid job orientation. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns . MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to address a question to the Honourable, the Attorney-General , to ascertain from him if he has as yet met with the President of the Manitoba Bar Association and with the Chairman of the Legal, well , I guess it's the lawyers ' group , the criminal lawyers ' group in relation to the practices of the Police Commissions in dealing with criminal suspects and their right to have access to lawyers? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr. Speaker , I've met with the President of the Manitoba Bar Association. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker , is the fact that the member has not met with the other group any indication of any reluctance to discuss it with them , since the Minister has reported that it was his intention to meet with both the President of the Manitoba Bar and with the Chairman - • ... I think it's Mr. Brodsky , I'm not sure of who is the Chairman of the Criminal Trial Lawyers ' ~ Association? MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker , I believe I had indicated that I would be meeting with the President of the Manitoba Bar Association and the Chairman of the Criminal Justice Subsection of the Manitoba Bar Association , but the President , in coming to the meeting, did not bring the Chairman of the Criminal Justice

Section with him. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker , in view of the fact that the Honourable , the Attorney-General, has already met with the President of the Bar Association , can he advise us if there is any change being developed in regard to the practice of the police in the interrogation and holding of criminal suspects in regard to their access to lawyers as soon as they wish to see them? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker , the result of the meeting with the President of the Manitoba Bar Association with respect to this matter was that he indicated that the resolution, which the Member for St .

Johns is referring to with respe ct to right of access to counsel , had not been consi dered by the Criminal Justice Subsection Bar Association , or by a meeting of the Bar Association. He indicated that he would raise the matter at their convention in the middle of the month of June, in order to have the convention consider that matter; and in his view he thought it would pass. I then indicated to them, upon receipt of a resolution from the Manitoba Bar Association, I would be prepared to raise the matter at the next meeting of Attorneys-General , which I expect to occur within the next few months . . MR.

CHERNIACK: Mr. Speaker , may I ask the Attorney-Genera l if he is planning to visit Breezy Point , Minnesota , in order to hear the discussions that take place in regard to this very resolution? MR. MERCIER: No, I'm not , Mr . Speaker. MR. CHERNIACK: Well , Mr.

Speaker , may I ask the Attorney-General whether he is not prepared to make a further investigation and establish a policy in regard to this question of access to lawyers by people suspected of crime until after the Bar Association and all the Attorneys-General of Canada get around to it, and meanwhile has he ensured that at least the minimal policy , and that's my description of it, of Winnipeg police is being carried out by the rest of Manitoba police. 4672 :::

• • • ., .. Monday, May 28, 1979 MR. MERCIER: Yes it is, Mr. Spe aker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkste r. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speake r, I would like to direct a ques tion to the Honourable House Leader. I want to know whether the House can expect that there will be a resolution at this session setting up a committee to consider whether or not citizens have ample access to information , and if not recommending steps to improve such access . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader . HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris) : That matter has not been given consideration as yet , Mr. Speaker .

MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the day . The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Aciing First Minister . I would like to ask that Minister if there has been any change in the tradit ional practice of accepting the highest bidder on a tender call . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister responsible for Manitoba Telephones . HON. EDWARD McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Speaker , I believe the member has some specific question of tendering, some specif ic department in m ind . Perhaps if he could be specific we could deal with it. MR. WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Indeed I do have a specific, but before that I wish to know whether there had been any change in the government's traditional tendering practice . Perhaps the Minister could answer that. MR. McGILL: Mr. Speaker, I cannot identify any particular change in government practice with respect to tender ing policies , and that is a very general statement. There are many individual problems with respect to tenders and it's very diff icult to generalize in the whole spectrum of tendering within the government. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Speaker , I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Mines and Environmental Management and ask him whether he can conf irm that the h ighest tender submitted for a catering contract at Birds Hill Provincial Park was refused by the government, or by the Minister . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Mines, Resources and the Environment. MR. RANSOM: That's my understanding, Mr. Speaker, that that was the situat ion and that is not a change from past practice or policy . MR. WALDING: A supplementary question , Mr. Speaker.

Is the Minister prepared to inform the House at this time why he failed to accept the highest tender? MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I had advised the honourable member that when the details of the particular case were brought forward to me that I would be advising him of those reasons and that is my intention . MR. WALDING: A supplementary question , Mr. Speaker .

In view of the fact that this matter was first referred to the Minister perhaps two months ago by the the individual concerned and about a month ago by me, can the Ministe r explain to the House why it has taken so long for him to ascertain why this high bid was refused? MR. SPEAKER: Orde rs of the Day. The Honourable Minister of Mines. MR. RANSOM: Y es, Mr. Speaker , because some of the first information that came to me seemed to be rath er incomplete and in discussion with the Honourab le Member for St.

Vital, it was evident that the information that I had at that time was not satisfac tory to him, and so I had asked for 4673

Monday, May 28, 1979 additional information. When that information is available, I will make it available to the honourable member . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr . Speaker , I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Fitness and ask him whether he has any information on the problems associated with the holding of the next Pan American Games in Latin America? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sports . HON. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendrye): No, Mr. Speaker . MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker , since the city of Hamiilton has been mentioned as a possib le backup city for the next games due to certain problems apparently in the staging of them , would the Minister be prepared to investigate the possibility of offering Winnipeg as an alternative site for the holding of the next Pan Am Games, in view of the great success of the 1967 effo rt ? MR. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker , I can check into the particular situation that the member refers to and get back to him on it.

We still have many of the fantast ic facilities that were used in the '67 Pan Am Games in place in Winnipeg , and I'm sure could be used for an event such as that again . I could check into the matter and report back to the member . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. RONALD McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker , I'd like to ask a question to the Minister of Highways in regard to construction work near Easterville on Easterv ille road and PTA No. 327.

I wonder if the Minister could tell us whether there is any provision in the contracts that have been let or any preference given to the hiring of local residents in that construction work? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker , ther e has always been every effort made to encourage the use of local labour and local manpower when available , however , specific conditions written into the contracts are not the case, the open tender ing system being adhered to by the Department of Highways . ... ... MR. McBRYDE: Well , Mr.

Speaker , I wonder if the Minister can tell us who has the contract to , do some brushing or bush clearing at the side of the roads in that area, and whether any local people have been hired on that aspect of the construct ion or the mai ntenance? MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker , as to a specific contract , I'd have to take the question as notice and report back to the member , perhaps tomorrow. MR.

McBRYDE: I'd like to address a question then to the Minister responsible for Manpower , and ask the Minister for Manpower whether he is still recommending urging his colleagues in Cabinet to give preference to local residents in terms of construct ion and work projects that take place near the remote communities? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Yes, I am, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for The Pas with a fourth question . MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr.

Speaker , then I wonder if this Minister could tell us how come there is not a single resident of Easterville employed in the construct ion work now going on near their community? MR. MacMASTER: The Minister of Highways has said he'd report back on that , Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin . 4674

• • Monday, May 28, 1979 MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct my question to the Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. I wonder if the honourable minister is prepared to monit or the gasoline prices at the retail outlets in the city and rural Manitoba on a weekly basis and report back once a year to see what gasoline prices are fluctuating up and down , and which pumps , and which companies are the culprits of this alleged practice . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs. MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker , I believe I responded to that question the other day in the House . Perhaps if my honourable friend would check Hansard he will be able to get the answer to that question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. HARVEY BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Resources with regard to the allocation of wild rice leases and particularly the allocation of wild rice leases in the Whiteshell. Can the Minister indicate if there will be any change in the policy in that regard?

In previous years I believe most, if not all of the wild rice leases in the Whiteshell Park were allocated to Algonquin Wild Rice Producers Company Limited, which represented a number of Indian bands in Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines, Resources and the Environment . MR. RANSOM: Yes, Mr. Speaker, there may be some changes in the manner in which the leases are made available . MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker , a supplementary question to the Minister.

Can he indicate if the leases that have been allocated to the Algonquin Wild Rice Producers Limited, which I believe are long standing commitments by the Government of Manitoba to the Indian owned company, would he confirm that these leases will be honoured; that this company will be able to renew their leases this year as per prior agreements and prior commitments made by the Government of Manitoba to the Indian people in Manitoba? MR. RANSOM: Mr, Speaker , I would have to check on specific arrangements that the member says were in place.

There are discussions ongoing with my officials right now in terms of how the leases will be made available. It is certainly the intention to recognize the long standing interests of those people who have had the leases. MR. BOSTROM: Well, Mr. Speaker, my question is quite simple and straightforward and I don't believe I've really received a straight answer as of yet. Perhaps I can rephrase it to get a more direct answer.

My question is: With respect to those leases that have been signed, many of them I believe which contained commitments for 4 or 5 years in duration where already commitments have been made by the Government of Manitoba to the Indian people through the Algonquin Wild Rice Producers Company Limited, is the Minister saying that he is going to break those commitments and break those leases unilaterally and take the leases away from the Algonquin Company and award it in some other manner? MR. RANSOM: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of any provision of any leases being broken.

Now I would have to check to determine whether or not some provisions of agreements may not have been kept and leases may have lapsed as a result of that, but I am not aware of any situations such as the honourable member refers to. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, I would hope the Minister could take that question as notice and report back if there are impending changes . On another matter, Mr. Speaker, I'd like to ask the Minister if he has yet developed a policy for park development, and in particular I would like to know if he has developed a policy with respect to the development of the Whiteshell Park . MR.

RANSOM: The matter of parks policy is one that's being developed within the government , Mr. Speaker , and when the policy is approved by Cabinet in caucus it will be announced. 4675

Monday, May 28, 1979 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin . MR. McKENZIE: A question to the Honourable Minister of Highways . I wonder if the Minister can advise the House if he's going to revise the highway program for the year ahead now, due to the flooding conditions in the south . Will there be certain construction projects in the north, that are ~ in my constituency, now cancelled due to the flooding problems in southern Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. MR. ENNS: Well , Mr.

Speaker, I want to thank the honourable member for not giving me notice for that question, but I would indicate to him that it's my hope that with the sun shining that we will in effect be able to complete more or less the highways program as was planned . There will be a fair amount of remedial work done in those parts - in that part of the province where we've had severe flooding . I have as yet not made any adjustments in the highways program as initially laid out during the earlier part of this session when my Estimates were being considered. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. MR.

JAY COWAN: Thank you Mr. Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Northern Affairs . Can the Minister indicate if his department has been meeting with the chief and band council at God 's Lake Narrows band for the purpose of drafting plans for a bridge to span the narrows in that community so that the band members will have greater access to the air strip during break-up in the summer months? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Northern Affairs. .. MR. MacMASTER: I can't say for sure , Mr. Speaker , whether discussions are being conducted "' at the moment, but I know that discussions have taken place .

I can 't answer the question precisely whether discussions are taking place today . MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question to the Minister is, then will he be prepared to undertake to report back to the House as to the status of those negotiations at the present time? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Manpower and Labour . MR. MacMASTER: Yes, Mr. Speaker . MR. COWAN: Yes, thank you , Mr. Speaker . A question to the Minister of Labour .

In light of public statements appearing in the paper over the weekend in reference to the accuracy of lead-in-blood testing done at both labs doing testing in the city , and in light of the fact that those statements by recognized professionals in the field seem to contradict criticisms made by the Minister in this House earlier this year, is the Minister now prepared to table docume nts to substantiate his earlier ~ attacks on the lead-in-blood testing procedures done at the Health Sciences Centre? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR.

MacMASTER: Those particular procedures aren 't for me to table , Mr. Speaker , and I reiterate what I said before , that the discussions took place between the Health Sciences people and our own people and our particular procedures and systems were reviewed by people from the Health Sciences Centre and they have , I understand , recently hooked themselves in with an international quality control procedure , and I'm pleased that they have . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona . MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker , my question is directed to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs , and is a follow-up to the question from the Member for Roblin regarding gasoline prices. Would the Minister confirm that his department will indeed be monitoring gasoline prices to determine the overall effect to the consumer of price wars, followed by massive co-ordinate d price increases in gasoline prices . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs. 4676

.. Monday, May 28, 1979 MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker , as I indicated earl ier, I responde d to that que stion last week, and our investig ations indicate that prices across Canada, at least from Toronto west , range in the 92 to one dollar mark depen ding on the mark-up that is taken by individu al dealers . Winnipeg and Regina seem to be the arenas for price wars, and anytime that the price falls below that 92 to one dollar price, it seems to me that the con sumers are gett ing the bargain.

I don 't know of many occasions wher e the price in Winnipeg has exceeded that general average pric e in western Canada, taking into conside ration , of course, that the price in Alberta is somewhat lower due to the fact that there is no tax on gasoline . But generally speaking, in cities across western Canada and Ontario, the prices are, outside of the wars that exist in Winnipeg and Regina , the prices range between 92 cents and one dollar per gallon. MR. PARASIUK: A supplementary to the Minister.

Since price wars often result in small independent gasoline service station operators being driven out of business by the large companies which can withstand the price war, has the Minister and his department, in their studies , been monitoring whether the price wars have driven small independent gasoline station operators out of business in the Winnipeg area? What has the figure been over the last 18 months with respect to the number of small independent service station operators being driven out of business? MR. JORGENSON: Mr.

Speaker , over the years there have been a number of the so-called small independent dealers that have been driven out of business, or closed down . I don't know whether that percentage has increased latterly or not, I would have to see if I could find that informati on out for my honourable friend. I don't believe that we have it at the moment. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona with a final supplementary . MR.

PARASIUK: Yes, in determining that information, I would like the Minister to indicate to us whether , in fact, the Conservative Government considers it important to the competitiveness of the gasoline service station sector to have small independent operators operating, or do they consider it suff icient to allow the large chains to drive the small ones out of business? MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker , no, we believe that the independent operators are a very vital part of the whole process, and we would like to see them remain.

At the same time, Sir, unless my honourable friend is suggesting that we set the price of gasoline in the Province of Manitoba at a level that would be comparable to high levels across Canada , I'm not too sure that we'd be prepared to take that step . First of all, it would be ineffective and secondly, it would be very difficult to police . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Resources, and I would like to ask him why his government has not yet come up with a policy with respect to development in the park at the Whiteshell Park .

After 20 months of PC government, we still do not yet have a policy, and people are very concerned about the type of development that will be taking place there in the future . I wonder if the Minister can give us an indication when we will be hearing from him and his government with respect to a policy regarding the development of that park? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines, Natural Resources and the Environment . MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, there were many areas of my department that were either lacking in policy or where it was necessary to make changes in policy .

The Parks area is certainly one of those , and there had been no plan there for eight years. We are very close to having a policy for all parks in place, and in the meantime, I have given the assurance to the House that there would be no further major developments take place, as did the former Minister of Tourism last year, that there would be no major developments take place until an appropriate plan was in place . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Mr.

Spea ker, I'd like to address a question either to the Minister of Economic Development, or perhaps to the Minister of Agr iculture, since this directly affects the 46n

Monday, May 28, 1979 farming community. I wonder if the government bench could advise the House whether it is now , or consider ing making representation to the new federal government resp ect ing the establishment of a pra irie rail authority, which was a key recommendation in the Royal Commission of Chief Justice Hall. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agricultu re. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Not at this time, Mr . Speaker. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

Well , I wonder if the Honourable Minister of Agriculture could advise the Legislature whether the government has a position with respect to the prairie rail authority , as recommended by the Hall Commission . MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker , it is my understanding that a lot of the work that could have been done by the Prairie Rail Authority is now being heard by the Canadian Transport Commission, and it would be a dual body with authority to do the same kind of a job. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East with a final supplementary . MR. EVANS: Well, Mr.

Speaker, considering the Honourable Minister 's answer, I would like to ask him , if he does not believe that it's very import ant, that it is imperative, that we have this Prairie Rail Authority as recommended by the Hall Commission , which would be a division of the Canadian Transport Commission , and oversee in particular the payment of subsidies to the branch lines to ensure the upgrading of branch lines rather than their neglect that has occurred previously under the CTC. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I really found it difficult to pick a direct question from the Member for Brandon East.

I think that , if it's an authority that he's looking for to put money into the rail lines, I think probably that if and when that were to take place , becaus e we certainly have to look at the money being made available to put into the road system as well as into the railroad system to weigh which way the taxpayers ' money should be spent in the most effective manner. So I think we have to definitely look at the total picture, and not just a complete rail retention program . MR. EVANS: Then, to confirm my understanding , Mr. Speaker , I'd like to ask this supplementary .

I understand , therefore , that the Government of Manitoba is not necessarily interested in seeing this key recommendation of the Hall Report being implemented ; that is, the recommendation that a Prairie Rail Author ity centred in the prairies be established . MR. SPEAKER: Order please . Order please . I suggest to the honourable member this is a time for asking questions , not for making statements . Does the Honourable Member for Brandon East have a question? MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker , for your advice in this matter.

My question is, for clarification, is the Minister now telling the Legislature that the government of Manitoba is not prepared to see this key element , this key recommendation of the Hall Report implemented? Is that the position of the government of Manitoba? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker , the Member for Brandon East I am sure is quite aware of the fact we have been working with communities to retain rail lines that they identify that they themselves want to see retained, and we will continue on that path. If there 's any different policy or any different approach taken , I'm sure the member will be made aware of it.

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon . MR. THOMAS BARROW: I direct my question to the Minister of Labour , Mr. Speaker . It's repetitious but 1 would like an answer . It is the environmental jurisdiction problem at Flin Flon which the Ministe r is well aware of, and which has been asked at least 10 or 12 times in this House. Would the Minister today please give an answer? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the day. The Honourable Member for Portage . MR. LLOYD G. HYDE: Yes, I'd like to address a quest ion to the Honourable Minister responsible 4678

.. • • Monday, May 28, 1979 for Highways to a scertain whether some action can be taken to eliminate a situation that if not dealt with I'm afraid will end up as a tragic accident , that being the heavy flow of traffic exiting from the two new malls west of Portage int o the through traffic of the No. 1 Highway . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Transportation . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker , I'm pleased to be able to inform the Honourable Member for Portage that the situation has been brought to my att ention by several people, and indeed 1 think one of the council members from the RM of Portage, and the department is currently acquiring some additional lands to put some additional storage lanes in that general area.

We are aware of the fact that the commencement of the shopping mall at the west end of Portage has altered the traffic considerably and we'll be monitoring the situation and see what we can do to assure ourselves that the kind of situation that the honourable member suggests may happen will not happen. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Honourable Minister of Mines and Environmental Management. I'd like to ask the Minister whether the matter of garden allotments on the outskirts of Winnipeg are part of the Minister 's responsibility . MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Mines, Resources and the Environment. MR. RANSOM: It's a good question, Mr. Speaker. I'll take it as notice . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona . MR. PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Highways and is a follow-up to the question put forward by the Member for Portage.

Since it is a practice in the city of Winnipeg for developers of shopping centres, if in fact they create some extra burden on the highway traffic system, to bear some of the costs of the additional highways facility put in place, is it the intention of the government of Manitoba to sit down with the developer of that shopping centre to determine whether the shopping centre developer should be footing some of the bill for the increased highway capacity, or is it going to be the general taxpayer of Manitoba that'll bear that cost? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Transportation. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, I want to assure the Honourable Member for Transcona that by and large the same application of policy applies in both urban and rural settings. In the city the general taxpayer, of course , pays upwards to $4,000 to $5,000 per lane mile for the maintenance of all the arterial streets through the city of Winnipeg . On those streets such as TransCanada No. 1 and/or other arterial streets we do put up the signalling facilities as we would in the case of Portage Ia Prairie because we're dealing with the TransCanada Highway.

More or less the same general appl ication applies, developers that require specific highway improvements pay for them . I think the Honourable Member for Dauphin can indicate that that is the case right now with the shopping mall being developed there, where the developer requesting specific highway construction to facilitate traffic flow onto his parking lot is in fact being charged with that amount. I want to assure the Honourable Member for Transcona that within the Department of Highways we treat urban and rural people in much a similar way. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR.

PARASIUK: Yes, a supplementary to the Minister. Since the Dauphin shopping centre developer is being assessed a levy, does the Minister now say that the Portage Ia Prairie shopping centre developer isn't going to be assessed in a levy because he's building a shopping centre beside the Trans Canada Highway instead of just beside a normal provincial highway? Is that his rationale for not charging the Portage Ia Prairie developer a levy? MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I was merely answering in a general way that the same general rules apply . I'm not aware of the specific details involved in this particular case.

I am aware that there has been growth and development in the city of Portage Ia Prairie, particularly in the last 18 months, which I know that we're all very pleased with, and that at the same time Trans Canada is the major 4679

Monday, May 28, 1979 thoroughfare through the pro vince and the Department of Highways has to concern itself with the type of traffic changes , the different patterns of traffic that develop from time to time.

I can assure the honourable member that I will ascertain the specifics in the case involved: It could well be that the developer in Portage Ia Prairie has and is contributing to certain portions of costs , but the question that was raised by the Honourable Member for Portage Ia Prairie deals more specifically with the Trans Canada Highway , and that is and continues to be 100 percent provincial responsibility . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona with a final supplementary . MR.

PARASIUK: Yes, I would ask the Minister of Highways , when he's investig ating the Portage situation to take into account the fact that there is a by-pass around Portage, paid for, I presume , by the federal government and the provincial government , which fully by-passes Portage Ia Prairie on the Trans Canada , and that the No. 1 or the Trans Canada running through Portage is a secondary route for major motorists travelling around , or by-passing Portage .

Just as No. 1 through the city is a secondary road where the city rules are put into effect , and where the developer has to pay his fair share if he presents a burden on the existing road or highway structure . MR. SPEAKER: I want to thank the Honourable Member for Transcona for his comments . I wonder if he has a question now . MR. PARASIUK: Yes. I'm sorry that you didn 't hear my question , Mr. Speaker . I asked the Minister if he would take that into account , that is a question , Mr. Speaker . I think that the Minister heard if you didn 't. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the day. The Honourable Member for The Pas.

MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Consumer Affairs and follows up on the questions about gas pricing . I wonder if his department is studying or whether he could assure us that the lesser profits accruing to the gas companies because of the price wars in the city of Winnipeg , whether he could assure us that the gas companies are not picking up that profit in rural and northern Manitoba. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs. MR.

JORGENSON: I can give my honourable friend that assurance, because the prices that are charged in the various points in the province of Manitoba by the gasoline companies delivered to that particular point are fairly constant. The variation takes place when it gets into the dealer 's hands and the price wars commence there . MR. McBRYDE: Mr . Speaker , a question to the Minister of Highways .

I would like to ask the Minister of Highways when the gravelling for the completion of the Moose Lake road will begin and whether he will be taking steps to ensure that residents and equipment from the community of Moose Lake will have opportunity to work on the completion of that Moose Lake road. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways . MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker , I'll have to take that quest ion as notice as to when the actual work will commence . I would hope it would be soon .

On the second part of the question - yes, I will make every attempt to see that local suppliers of both equipment and manpower are given every opportunity to enter into the work . ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The hour for Quest ion Period having expired , the Honourable Government House Leader . MR. JORGENSON: Mr . Speaker , 1 move, seconded by the Minister of Highways, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved into a Committee of Supply, with the 4680 •

Monday, May 28, 1979 Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Labour and Manpower and the Honourable Member for Roblin in the Chair for the Depart ment of Governme nt Services. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - GOVERNMENT SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. J. Wally McKenzie (Roblin): Committee come to Order . Resolution 59: 3.(a)Senior Administration (1)Salaries-pass - the Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Just before we get there , did we complete all of 58? Did we do Security Services for example? MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes we did. As I look at it here, they're all passed. MR.

DOERN: Okay , I have some points to make there but I'll wait till the Minister's Salary. MR. CHAIRMAN: We're on Supply and Services. MR. DOERN: Right. I guess my first questions are for the Central Vehicle Branch so I'll wait for that. MR. CHAIRMAN: (a)-pass; 3.(aX2)0ther Expenditures-pass; 3.(b)Central Vehicle Branch or (1)Salaries-pass - the Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, just there in general, I have some broad questions there but I'll hold those for a moment There is one peculiarity that occurred during the Session during some questions asked by my colleague , the Member for St.

Vital , and that was that business about the Minister 's whitewalls and I found that a very peculiar operation, namely that I thought it was standard government policy that when you're purchasing vehicles to have companies bid and then the bids would be received and then there would be a decision taken on the lowest bidder in the sense that Minister 's vehicles tend to be perhaps one notch higher than the normal standard Civil Service car, which is common throughout the country.

So in this particular case , we had a vehicle purchased and then the Minister himself made a substitution and to me, although we're not talking so much about money here as we are about a principle , I'm just wondering whether this is an except ion to the tendering practices , whether the Minister is going to accept substitutes from any member of the administration, whether this is an aberration or what?

Because although on the surface it looks all very well , it strikes me as peculiar that the department would be responding to somebody who would say: "Listen, I've got a deal on batter ies, I have a deal on seat covers , I have a deal on this, I know where I can get a radio cheaper. " I mean, surely there are procedures which for various reasons should be followed and I am just wondering on what basis this was allowed and whether this was going to be a new innovation in the department. Because although there may be some merit in it, I see some serious pitfalls as well . MR. CHAIRMAN: Pass. MR. DOERN: Well , Mr.

Chairman , maybe the Minister didn't hear me. I asked him on what basis he allowed a Minister to make a substitution for tires on his vehicle? MR. ENNS: I'd have to check as to the actual dates, but I don't believe I was the Minister and I can assure the honourable member that wouldn't happen under my stewardship as Minister of Government Services . But seriously, there is a change that I should indicate to the members of the Committee.

Well , I don't even know whether that is a change so much , it's a practice that I can recall being in place during the '60s, in any event , where this government has perhaps more ministers from different parts of rural Manitoba, and while the tendering practice remains the same, the allocation as to which dealer supplies the car after the tender has been made, whether it's at General Motors or Ford, something like that, the Minister can request that the car be supplied by a dealer within his constituency .

That is not being rigidly , you know, adhered to but it is an option and I suspect that perhaps that has been the case in the past. The specific matter that the honourable member raises, I would have to agree with him. It's 4681

Monday, May 28, 1979 not a practice that we would want to allow to develop. Guidelines are established in terms of the size and classification of the vehicle that's deemed appropriate for any particular administrative post or indeed for the executive council 's requirements and within those guidelines, given the choice of different makes of cars that happens to meet the Minister's requirements, those guidelines are followed and will be followed . MR.

DOERN: I'll just make a concluding comment here , before my colleague asks some questions and just say that I am glad that the Ministe r says he does not feel that this was a wise procedure to follow because of certain pitfalls , and you know , I'm sure that the Minister is well aware that when you start making exceptions for short-run gain , you may be getting involved in long-term problems .

I've talked to people , for example, in the catering business and they tell me that they often have all sorts of wonderful opportunities to save money on food , but there are little problems associated with it like - for instance , you may be offered a whole van full of poultry , say as a specific example, where a refrigerated truck crashed and then the poultry , I guess , was written off and it was then offered to somebody at a bargain price. The problem being that maybe the meat was no longer any good .

There's a question there and this is very common in the food industry and I recall as Minister of Public Works , having some problems where a well-known car dealer, after he had made an arrangement with the province to sell a number of vehicles and decided he wanted to substitute batteries. He got a deal on a carload of batteries and he wanted to make that change, and as a result of making that substitution I th ink, without approval from the department , he had the tender withdrawn from him .

He lost that contract because he was trying to sort of make an end-run based on some particular beneficial deal that he had made. So I'm simply saying to the Minister that this is an area that should be looke d at closely and for the benefit of a short-run advantage , some longer term consequence might ensue . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Thank you, Mr . Chairman. I wonder if the Minister would explain to the Committee just what the system is of tendering for tires by the department? MR. ENNS : Mr.

Chairman , I have to ask the honourable member , the department and/or other departments of government purchase tires in wholesale lots for different use and different vehicles, particularly the Department of Highways , I'm assuming if the honourable member is referring to the tires on the fleet, on the cars that we put on tender - it's still done on bulk purchasing , that the garage then receives and are put on. We are tendering basically for the standard vehic les that are used throughout the service , the black - no whitewalls . On the executive cars the whitewalls are tendered for . MR.

WALDING: Just for clarification , Mr. Chairman, does the de. partment actually purchase the tires in bulk , or do they negotiate a certain price or discount price with a certain supplier? MR. ENNS: I'm advised that for the general fleet it is a tender - that is bulk tender - that is sent out to the various tire manufacturers , for the cars it's a tender sent out to the manufacturers for the cars . MR. WALDING : Mr. Chairman , does the department then take possession of the tires in bulk or .. . ? MR. ENNS : I'm advised , Mr .

Chairman , that the tires are tendered for in bulk and the vehicles are then equipped with them from that supply . MR. WALDING: Mr . Chairman , I would like to ask the Minister if there is a set quality? MR. ENNS: The original car , when tendered , comes supplied with five tires - four and a spare - and that is part of the tendering process of the vehicles .

The replacements that are required from time-to-time , those are tendered separately - their tire tenders - and are then stored or available to be drawn on by the central garage to be put on the vehicles as required, but the original is tendered with the tires . . MR. WALDING : I thank the Minister for that information, Mr. Chairman . Now I'd like to ask him if there is a certain standard or qual ity of those replacement tires that are used on Ministervehicles? 4682 •

• Monday, May 28, 1979 MR. ENNS: I am advised that they are standard four-ply radial tires , whitewalls -(lnterjecti on) not whitewalls , no whitewalls I am told . MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I am under the impression that tire manufacturers make different sorts of tires in different qualities, from a very cheap one to a tire that might cost ten times as much as the cheapest with a concomitant increase in the amount of mileage that. might be obtained from such a tire .

Now I want to know from the Minister, has the depart ment done any cost benefit studies as to which is the cheapest or most economical qual ity of tire to purchase, and if so, which quality of tires do they purchase for Ministers ' cars? MR. ENNS: I have been advised that in general the policy is to stay with the first-line standard tire of similar quality to the one that came with the original purchase of the vehicle . In other words, the classification of the tire in the way the orig inal vehicle when purchased was equipped with, that is the classification of tire that is purchased in bulk for replacement. MR.

WALDING: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can the Minister inform the Committee how many thousand miles the department expects to get out of each of those tires? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, knowing the wide variation of the kind of use that government vehicles are put to, government employees working in northern Manitoba under much rougher road conditions, government ministers like myself driving on unimproved trails as I do every day on provincial road 518, the wear and tear on tires is considerably different as compared to say, my colleague, the Minister of Tourism , who does most of her driving in the city or on trunk highways . Do we have an average mileage life of tires in general?

I am advised it varies from to 20,000 to 40,000 miles in much the same way, you know, that variations exist in the private sector use of cars and tires . MR. CHAIRMAN: May I just correct the Committee . We should maybe pass that Salary item (

a) and Other Exependitures. This is likely what we're dealing with now, isn't it, in (b)(2)? So we'll pass (1) and then carry on with the questioning in (2). Would that be okay with the members? (b)(1)-pass; (b)(2) - the Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Yes, Mr. Chairman , I'd like to ask the Minister what the . cost would be of five first-line standard tires such as he would put on a minister's car . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , perhaps we could take that question as notice and come back to that. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I didn 't want to know to the last cent.

If the Minister could give me an approximate figure, a round figure, say to the nearest $10 or so. MR. ENNS: Between $30 and $90.00 . MR. WALDING: Is the Minister telling me that the department can buy five tires for $30.00? MR. ENNS: No, per piece, per tire. We'll find out; we'll make a phone call right now and we'll have it. MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)(2)-pass - the Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr .

Chairman , I'd like to deal with one of the favourite topics of the Minister and myself ; the Provincial Garage, and before I do that I would like to ask why there has been a $ 1,150,000 increase in the Other Expenditures for the Central Vehicle Branch? I assume this is for the purchase of new vehicles but can the Minister indicate why there has been such a substantial increase in estimates for the garage; $4.6 million to $5.8 million? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, members will appreciate that in the past 15 or 18 months while ongoing stud ies with respect to the government fleet have been taking place and are still taking place, there has been of course , no reduction in the number of miles that have been driven and the principal sum is for additional vehicles to be purchased to the fleet - replacement vehicles to be purchased to the fleet - to keep the fleet within some semblance of order. 4683

Monday, May 28, 1979 MR. DOERN: Can the Minister give us the size of the fleet today and the proj ection for this fiscal year? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I have been advised that at the current moment, some 2,315 vehicles comprise of the government fleet. MR. DOERN: 2,315, and can the Minister indicate how many leased vehicles there are? MR. ENNS: I am advised , Mr. Chairman , that currently , aside from perhaps one or two that could be under daily lease, but there are no leased vehicles in the fleet at the moment. MR. DOERN: So if we. . . MR. ENNS: That figure by the way, Mr.

Chairman , if I may just interject , the central vehicle fleet at March 31st, 1979, is 2,314. That breaks down to some - just for further information - 372 trucks; 467 vans; 1,293 sedans , passenger sedans; 122 station wagons ; and 60 other ; for a total of 2,314 . MR. DOERN: Are there any helicopters in the fleet? MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman , then , if my figures are right , going back over the past year or two, there has been a reduction of maybe 50 to 100 vehicles in the past year or two , or this is the impression that I have. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , for accurate comparison , I just related the figures as of March 31st, 1979. March 31st , a year ago , 1978, there was 2,415, so the member is correct; in the order of 100 vehicles. Most of them being made up in the sedans , passenger sedans. In 1978 we had 1,327 passenger sedans as compared to 1,293 at March 31st , 1979. MR.

DOERN: In addition to the government fleet , does the Minister have some figures for us on the amount of money that is paid to individuals for operating their vehicles, because I assume that there is a considerable amount of money and that if you buy less cars , you're either allowing people to lease vehicles and you say you 're not leasing any or you are paying them to operate their own vehicles . And I just wonder if you have - first of all - a figure for this fiscal year on the amount of money budgeted for the payment to individuals for operating their vehicles. MR.

ENNS: Those charges are shown in the various departments. We can provide that for the honourable member and I'd undertake to have that information in a comparative way, say last year to th is year , perhaps have that information available to the honourable member later on in the discussion of these Estimates . The staff informs me they cannot provide that information at the moment. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman , I assume that it is likely that we will conclu de Estimates tomorrow in this department , at least , I would hope so, and if the Minister could ask his staff to pull them for tomorrow afternoon , that would be useful. If not , then I would ask the Minister if he would forward that information as soon as possible during this Session . My point being this, Mr. Chairman , that the size of the fleet alone is only one factor and there certainly has been hardly any change in the past year or two.

We see a difference of 100 vehicles on some 2,300 to 2,400 ; I don 't know what that is, about 5 percent , 4 or 5 percent reduction but it's only one part of the picture , because if it simply means that individuals are being paid so many cents a mile to ·operate their vehicles then I think it's a well-known fact that it's cheaper to operate a car by the central fleet than to pay an individual because there used to be a discrepancy that ranged from about 12 percent or so to operate a vehicle and payments were made of around 21 cents per mile .

So we have to have some fresh figures and perhaps the Minister could provide that as well. Does he have figures on what we now consider to be the correct charge per mile considering , you know, everything : maintenance , depreciation , etc .? How many cents per mile do we assume it costs us to operate our fleet and also what are we paying these days to individuals when they use their vehicles for government purposes? 4684

Monday, May 28, 1979 MR. ENNS: Apparently , Mr. Chairm an, we are charg ing to different depar tm ents, the rate of 15 cents per mile on an average of 18,500 miles per unit. That makes up the bulk of that revenue of $6,77 6,200 .00.

As I indicated earlier, the quest ion of what the appropri ate charge ought to be today , in 1979 , and to what exten t the Governm ent Services in the central gar age is in effect underc harging or subsid izing, i f you like, user departm ents, is something that I would hope we'll have clarified and if new policy initiative s are to be taken, that they will be in place for the coming set of Estimates . MR. DOERN: Well, Mr.

Chairman , the amount of money paid to individuals is set out in the Manual of Admin istration and I wonder if we could have the current range of figure s. 1 realize there is the north and the south and so on, but it used to be in the range of up to 21 cents a mile . Could we have the current figures from the Manual? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I can undertake to provide the member with a photocopy of the current printed Manual that is in use.

I am told that it starts generally at the rate of 21 cents and then varies with different types of vehicles , different use, but I'll see that the cur rent Manual, you know, is reproduced and given to the honourable member for his records . MR. DOERN: So anyway , the point I think , Mr. Chairman , is two th ings: one is that it costs more money to pay individuals to use their vehicles .

It's less effic ient if one is organized well, and secondly , when you give the size of the fleet , if you simply reduce the fleet and increase the amount of payments , then there is no saving to the government but , in fact, increased charges. And the original point is that the size of the fleet is slightly smaller but basically about the same. I know that if the former Minister of Government Services were here - citizen Sid Spivak - that he would probably be very distressed to learn that the fleet remains about the same.

Because in the marvelous documen t, the Task Force Report , he was suggesti ng, and whoever it was who was working on th is particular area , was suggesting that the fleet was to be reduced by I guess about 25 percent or more. No, it must be much more than that - from 2,450 to 1,700. So they wanted to reduce 750 vehicles , which is about 30 percent , and the Minister , by either accident or design, has only made a mild adjustment there.

The other thing .. . therefore I assume again, as we asked the Min ister last year when he was promoted to Government Services , and then demoted , and now once again has fallen into the good graces of the First Minister and given the assignment again; he said at that time that in terms of the Task Force Report, that he wasn' t following it. I recall making notes at the time, he said he'd only read it , that it had no direct effect, and that basically as when they run movies on television or in the theatre, they say any resemblance between any real characters and th is report is purely coincidental. MR.

ENNS: That 's only on CBC, Russ. MR. DOERN: On CBC, I see. So, I don 't want the Minister to develop an obsession with the CBC. You know , he mustn 't take that approach . He must have a more balanced approach than some of his colleagues . But I gather, as last year the Minister said in response to a series of questions, that he was not taking the Task Force as his Bible , that he wasn't trying to follow the recommendations , that he was on his own lights in that regard; so cou ld he comment .

Has he attempted to make any changes in his position, or is he still following his original posit ion of ignoring the recommendations in the Task Force Report? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , we anticipate that there will likely be some further reductions resulting out of units now turned in as surplus to departmental requirements . What's happening is that these are current ly being used to meet seasonal requests, and will be further considered following seasonal use. If additiona l vehicle requests continue to come from departments , it may be necessary to utilize some surp lus vehicles to cover new requests .

The former Minister of Public Works is aware that there is a heightened requirement use for vehicles - a fair number of them on a seasonal basis during this time of year and throughout the summer - so that there is a distinct possibility that without any basic change in policy , but simply through the tightened-up numbers of staff requiring the vehicles, this figure that we're currently at could be reduced to a somewhat lower level. But the honourable member is correct , that there is not at the moment, and I don't perceive at this particular instance on any predetermined course of fleet reduction .

The member is well aware that it involves a whole scale of considerat ions, certainly no t the least of them being the negotiations 4685

Monday, May 28, 1979 that any government finds themselves in with MGEA with respect to their work conditions and the job description in terms of where vehicles are currently assigned to a particular job. The question as to whether or not a somewhat arbitrary target limit for ·government fleet as set out by my former colleague is attainable will only be borne out as a result of further refinement of the study that 's now under way with respect to the government fleet in general. MR. DOERN: I'm glad the Minister made that statement, and I would simply point out to him that it may be a coincidence , but that Mr.

Spivak supported the Task Force Report and initiated it, and got defeated at the poll. So I simply point that out for the Minister's own benefit, that there might be some bad luck there if he follows . . . Well I believe it was both a federal election and a provincial referendum. Mr. Chairman , the other question is, of course , the provincial garage . I wanted to ask the Minister about the future of that building. At present, I gathe r it's being used to house a track for track and field, and I happen to have mixed emotions about that , because I'm a very strong supporter of track and field in Manitoba .

I used to compete; I've been to some Olympics to see them; I love the Pan-American Games - I raised that today, as a matter of fact , by coincidence .

And here it is, iron ica lly, that what was designed as a provincial garage , with the concurrence of the department , the superintendent of the garage and many of the people sitting here now , this was an established need for this facility , an autobody repair facility, administration , automotive repairs, based on the fact that the present site was too cramped , inefficient , contrary to National Building Code requirements , contrary to Fire Code inspections , so on and so on.

And as a result, the new facility was built , it was almost completed, the new administration came in, and has kept the facility more or less vacant ever since . Now , it was pointed out by Mr. Ziprick in Public Accounts last November, that the interest charges were about $280 ,000 a year, and there is also a $90,000 charge for heat, light and security . So essentially you have a figure of about $370,000 a year , $30 ,000 a month, and what would to me be a logical policy , Mr.

Chairman , would be to use the facility, which was designed for the requirements of the department , and then to make other uses of storage , or whatever, of the downtown facility down the street from here . There's certainly been no real reduction in the size of the fleet , and there has been no serious attempt to make another use of the building . It's designed as a garage , it's logical to use it as such , but I suppose . one could consider costly renovations , which I wouldn 't recommend , but that would be a possibility, to renovate the building for other purposes .

I think the Minister realizes , as I do , that when you take a building with a particular purpose and change the purpose or the function of that facility it will cost you dearly to do so. So here we have a garage, basically 18 months old, or new, and it's being used for storage or for minimal use as a temporary track and field facility . But it doesn 't seem to me that this Minister or this department or this government , assuming they intend to sell off the facility or make some other use of it, has made any serious attet to do so. They 've simply continued to keep the facility empty.

If it's costing $370,000 a year to do so, they have now spent , in effect, about $555,000 to do so. And that would seem to be a waste of the taxpayers ' money . So I just ask the Minister , first of all, what he has done, he and his former colleague , Mr. Spivak , about selling the facility , renting the facility , converting the facility , and/or what the present Minister intends to do in terms of the next year or two. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I'm sure the honourable member will agree that , with respect to the major cost item that he referred to, the interest charges , they would be there with it fully utilized as a provincial garage for which it was built or in its present state , it's underutilized use, so the costs in terms of inte rest charges are there in either case .

Let me indicate to him that what we have attempted to do was to make use of the facility to the extent possible without foregoing any of the options open to the department or government for its eventual use, which, in my judgment, will still be for the purpose that it was built for . The present occupants are , as the member has pointed out , the city of Winnipeg; it does store and maintain and has in fact used the facility for their track , Skills Unlimited uses the facility and has used the facility for the last 6 months , their facilities having suffered damage in a fire . There 's no lease signed with them.

They hopefully will be in some of their own facilities later on in the fall. In addition to that , Manitoba Telephone Systems does operate out of the same facility; they have some - I forget the actual amount - I believe some 5,000 or 6,000 square feet, 6,000 square feet of space that they are making use of. The general answer, though , to the honourable member 's question is that while the reduct ion in the governmen t fleet hasn 't occurred to the extent that was forecast by some, including my 4686 -

c. Monday, May 28, 1979 my former colleague , but what of course hasn' t taken place is, I suppose , the antic ipate d growth in terms of government vehicles . I don 't have the prog ression of that growth that occu rred in the eight years of the admin istrat ion tha t he was part of. And along with that , of course , the increased staff requirements to fully man that kind of facility hasn 't been required as well. So you know, I will not argue with the honourable member th at there aren 't some costs attac hed to the fact th at a building of that size and nature isn't being fully utilized. That's very obvious.

But on the other hand, for a government that has expressed its concern about growth within the public sector , particu larly in this area, those have not occurred . For instance, I indicated that it's - you know, I can 't fault the former Minister of Public Works all that much for having built that facility when you consider that in 1969 the government fleet stood at some 1,450 vehicles. And that then jumped up in the ensuing years to 1973 to 1,800 vehicles, to 1974 to 2,000 vehicles , to '75 to 2,163, to 1976 2,287 , to '77, 2,366, to the point where we started at , 2,415 in March of '78.

Now it's quite conceivable with that kind of 200 to 150 to 200 growth rate per year that was anticipated that a New Democratic Party adm inistration would have required the full services of that facility , assuming , as I am prepared to assume , that my former Minister of Public Works would not have built a new facility just to , meet today 's needs , would have built for some expansion. Well, that expansion hasn 't taken place. In fact , a reduct ion has occurred, and is still occurring .

The initial requirements, additional staffing requirements , I can 't recall right now, but were substantial , in the order of 16 to 24 or 26 additional bodies required to staff that new facility . Now, that hasn 't taken place . Those have to be counted among savings, if you like , particularly if I am being charged with costs accruing as a result of that building stand ing near empty. I will indicate to the honourable member that I believe that the facility is not the kind of facility that lends itself to easy transition to other use without very extensive and costly renovation.

That has not been considered by government. There is ongoing concern and planning taking place with respec t to eventual use of the old facil ity in connection with requirements of the Attorney-General's department, which the member is reasonably well aware of. A lot of that planning took place during the time that he was in office, and we feel that under those circumstances the course that we are following is a prudent one. We are mak ing use of the facility or not denying the use of the facility to any group of citizens or agencies that can use it without requiring any costly renovtions .

We're not getting ourselves into any long-term lease arrangements with any of these temporary users for the precise reason that we want to have every option open to us should the occasion occur in the future where the transfer and the full utilization of that facility for its intended purpose takes place . But we feel that faced with the current situation that that is the best kind of a status report that I can give the honourable members with respect to that facility . MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman , the Minister just made an interesting point or reference to the fact that it may be in the near future that there is a decision taken , I suppose, to build an extension to the Law Courts , or a new Law Courts , or court facilities, in the central core area and that the Minister indicates he may be holding as an option, the demolit ion of the old garage and the construction of a new facility of some sort on that land. Is that what he has just suggested? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, I am just indicating that I am aware of the desirability and the pressures that emanate from the Attorney-General 's department from time to time with respect to a more permanent way, a more satisfactory way, to provide the space requirements for that department. If that can take place in the course of the next two or three years, then the situation would alter considerably with respect to our attitude towards the Provincial Garage. MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)(2)-pass - the Honourable Minister . MR. ENNS: I might say, Mr.

Chairman, in that respect, you know, the honourable members opposite have taken my colleague to task, the Attorney-General, for lack of courtroom space, for lack of other facilities ; I, quite frankly and I suggest part of the action of this government is that we would have had somewhat different priorities. In other words , instead of building a $4 million or a $5 million garage, the question could well be asked, you know, should not have the legitimate requirements of Attorney-General's department been looked after first. MR. DOERN: Well , Mr.

Chairman , I won 't list for the Minister's benefit all the various actions that our government did take to meet the requirement of the Attorney-General including some which we'll be able to discuss in this department, like The Pas Correct ional and the Brandon Jail, and so on and so on. There 's an endless list of where we moved on a whole front in terms of trying 4687

Monday, May 28, 1979 to meet those requirements . I ask the Minister thi s question : Given tha t you have an old building used as a garage and a new building unused, would it not be logical for the Minister to consider a sWitch to use the new building which is there and to have the other building emp ty? I don 't see the hang-up about keeping this new facility empty when it could be utilized. It would make the department more efficient; it was tailored to their needs and then the old garage could be vacant.

I mean , given that you have two buildings, one which is more suitable and one which is less suitable, why not take the logical decision and move into the new facility and leave the old one vacant for the time. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, that precludes that any substantive changes with respect to government fleet and policy toward the government fleet will take place . That policy decision has not been arrived at as of yet.

There is, as much as I have indicated to you , that I have not . .. and these Estimates don 't reflect a major reduction in the government fleet , but I would not want the honourable members to preclude from that that it could not take place . And if in fact that does take place , then the whole question of the requirements of that size of facility still is a very open question . MR. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman , I know that the Minister is a biblical scholar of note, and I would simply say to him that the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and his government and his ministry has, for the past 18 months , been reviewing and considering the development of new policies and new directions in this regard , but so far nothing has happened . We had the Task Force Report which I think the

section on Public Works must have been - I would estimate the amount of time and hard thinking on the

section , several pages in the Task Force Report on Public Works and Government Services , must have been about 15 minutes , because whoever did it had a smattering of knowledge only about the department - it's pretty thin stuff . So I'm saying that there was this so-called Task Force Report which the Minister obviously is not very keen about - as I am not - but since that time very little has happened. Mr.

Ziprick, appearing before Public Accounts , mentioned that he hadn 't pursued this matter any further because of the fact that there is a new policy " under consideration" and , " a review is being made", so he says , until the policy matter is cleared up, he doesn 't feel he should pursue the matter any further. I'm simply saying to the Minister , given that 18 months have passed , there hasn 't been any new policy implemented - maybe there 's one being kicked around , but we haven 't seen it, the Minister hasn 't provided us with it.

So, you know, I assume that soon or in the future at some point that policy will be formulated . But let 's say that there is no evidence of that policy up until the present time , and you know , is the Minister suggesting that he is, in fact , going to address himself to that question again , and if so how long is it going to take for him to put that policy - first of all to develop it , and secondly to implement it? MR. CHAIRMAN: (bX2)-pass - the Honourable Member for St . Vital. MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman , I wonder if the Min ister is in a position at this time to answer the question that he took as notice a few minutes ago regarding the price of tires for the Minister 's cars? MR. ENNS: Well, we have a price quoted here , replacements for non-executive sedans run at between $20 to $30 approximately the same as the original equipment ; on executive cars, Ministers, they run at between $65 to $80 per tire, whitewalls, steel-belted.

Now the other question that was asked earl ier with respect to the General Manual of Administration in terms of mileage charges , south of the 53rd parallel from employee's residences we pay up to the 4,000 miles - 21- % cents per mile; from 4,000 to 10,000 miles - 15-% cents per mile ; mileage over 10,000 miles - 13-V2 cents per mile. North of the 53rd , those rates are up by 3 cents - 24- % cents , where in the south it's 21- %, and respectively. MR. WALDING : Thank you , Mr. Chairman . The Minister tells me that he pays between $65 and $85 each for tires for the Ministers ' cars .

I find that a little strange that he could not be any more accurate than that as to know from the tender just what it is that they pay for those tires . If we take the average there of $75 , that would indicate that a set of 5 tires would be $375.00 . The Minister of Amateur Sports and Fitness says that he has saved the government $172 on a set of tires , which would indicate that he got them for $203, or about $40 a tire. MR. ENNS: Yes, but he's a used car dealer . 4688

Monday, May 28, 1979 MR. WALDING: Now I would have to ask the Minister, since his coll eague can purchase tir es at so much cheaper and at such a saving over what the Department of Government Serv ices can, is the Minister now purchasing his tires from his colleague and saving the people of Manitoba $172 on every government Ministers' car? MR. ENNS: No, Mr. Chairman, I'm not purchasing them from my colleague, but I'm going to have words with my staff. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, that's hardly a satisfactory answer from the Minister.

I'm enquiring from him why he is wasting the taxpayers ' money buying tires at $75 each when they can be purchased for $40.00? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I think what the department is saying in general the tire class and type is matched as close to the original classification of tires that came along with the vehicle when the vehicle was purchased, and there are variations. A Minister who chooses to buy or to drive a smaller compact vehicle, as some indeed do, there can be quite a difference in the pricing of those tires .

Other Ministers, such as the Minister of Agriculture or the Minister of Highways , who spends a great deal of their miles driving through rural Manitoba, purchases a heavier standard sedan vehicle and have again , understandably, a different price range for the replacement tires required for that vehicle . I would suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the item that we're dealing with, with all due respect, is not going to change the world . MR. WALDING: Mr.

Chairman , the Minister 's right, it's not going to change the world but I brought the matter up, and expressed it in those terms simply because of this government's stated intention of restraint and saving money and cutting back wherever it can. The Minister has still not answered my question , given that whatever the size and type of car is, there is still a range of tires which will fit it, of different grades and different qualities, which will give different mileages.

Now, the Minister has still not answered the question as to why he is spending $75 a tire, on average, for Minister's tires, when they can be purchased at some $40 a tire. Now, does he consider this to be wasting money by purchasing these expensive tires or is there some other factor that comes into effect? MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)(2) - the Honourable Minister . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , other than those I mentioned , relative to the kind of vehicle for which tires are being purchased, I can 't offer any further suggestions .

The suggestion, of course , that I'm sure the department people present and indeed other Ministers present will take to heart that this is of course, precise ly what the review of Estimates is all about - that questioning of the nature of the Honourable Member for St. Vital will bring to bear on the purchasing practices of this government , and will , no doubt , have their effect. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask the Minister if he is aware of the establishment where his colleague, the Minister of Amateur Sport , purchased those very reasonably priced tires. MR. ENNS: I'm sorry, Mr.

Chairman , I didn't hear the first part of the honourable member's question . MR. WALDING: I'm asking the Minister if he is aware of the establishment where these tires were purchased? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , as I indicated earlier , they were purchased by tender. They must come from different firms at different times. I can't be more spec ific than that. If the honourable member questions me as to where the last bulk lot of tires purchased by the Provincial Garage came from, I'm sure the Purchasing Bureau could supply that information to me.

Presently I'm told the latest tender was won by Uniroyal and we're purchas ing Uniroyal tires. MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman , I'm referring specifically to the set of tires that his colleague , the Minister of Amateur Sport, purchased for his car. Now , presumably since he paid so much less, he did not get them through the Department of Government Services and according to my 4689

Monday, May 28, 1979 the department was sent out to purchase them at some other outlet. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I'm advised that the particular set of tires in question were Uniroyal, were purchased through our garage - the difference being that he purchased a different style of tire . He had a particular liking for a particular tire , which in effect was of lesser quality and consequently, lesser price . The Minister in this instance was pract ising the restraint program on a very individual and intimate way. MR. WALDING: And the next question, Mr.

Chairman , is it the Minister 's policy in future , and can he so assure the Committee , that future replacement tires for Ministers ' cars will be of this cheaper type that will save money for the people of Manitoba , or does he intend to go on spending $172 more on a set of tires than his colleague has indicated is necessary to do? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr.

Chairman, earlier the Honourable Member for Elmwood indicated what the road to hell was paved with , I can indicate to you only what I know the road to Woodlands is being paved with and I blew out a tire the other day on that piece of road , and whether my colleague , who travels on all weather, trunk highways from Trans -Canada- I think No. 12, chooses to purchase a lesser tire , I'm not so sure that I will recommend that to all my colleagues , particularly those who find themselves travelling upwards to 30,000 miles a year through all kinds of roads. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR.

WALDING: I'm from St. Vital. MR. CHAIRMAN: I apologize , the Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Thank you , Mr. Chairman . And can I suggest to the Minister that it had probably been found by previous experience that by purchasing a more expensive tire that (

a) it was safer and (

b) that the driver was able to get many more miles out of that tire than he would have done a cheaper one. And it was simply by experience, if not an actual cost benefit study, that the decision had been made to purchase those more expensive tires , and that by paying less, a less efficient or less well-made tire was purchased and that it could well be that there was no saving in fact , involved in this case. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I was waiting for precisely such a suggestion. I think the Honourable Member for St.

Vital hit the nail right on the head and I'll be sendin g a memo to the Honourable Minister of Tourism - or Sports and Fitness . MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister tell us where those notorious tires were purchased, what firm, what outlet were they purchased from? MR. ENNS: Uniroyal , purchased through the Central Garage - except as I understand it, the tire that the depar tment purchased as standard for that vehicle had a particular style of whitewall which wasn 't, you know , acceptable to the Minister . He preferred a d ifferent style which was cheaper .

So, you know , in this particular instance, the public purse was being saved some money . But I agree with the honourable members that this kind of an individualizing , if you like, you know, perhaps is not the most appropr iate way of purchasing what is, in effect , government property for government use. MR. DOERN: 1 assume the Minister must have received permission from the Minister of Public Works or Government Services to do this. I assume that the Minister of Fitness didn't phone up the garage and give direction, and if he did ... MR. CHAIRMAN: Order.

According to Rule 19(2), the hour of 4:30 having arrived, I'm interrupting and proceedings of the Committee for Private Members ' Hour and will return again tonight at 8:00 p.m . LABOUR AND MANPOWER MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This Committee will come to order . I would direct the honourable members' attention to Page 61 of the Main Estimates , Department of Labour and Manpower , Resolution No. 79. We are on Item (

d) Employment Services :

(1) Canada-Manitoba 4690

Monday, May 28, 1979 agreement (

a) Salaries-pass - the Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, that considerable length of time ago , that we were dealing with this item, there were some questions from this side of whether or not the Minister would provide us with the list of persons available for redeployment or to be redeployed because of the layoffs or firings within this

section and other sections under the Minister's jurisdiction, and whether or not that there was positions under this

section of Salaries, that would, in fact, be available to persons looking for redeployment. So, I wonder if the Minister , now having had that time to cons ider the matter and to get his information from his staff , would be able to give us that redeployment list. MR. MacMASTER: I don 't reca ll the member asking under this

section or under the - it should be under the Civil Service Commission, and we discussed the re-employment list and the methods that were implemented and used qu ite thoroughly under the Civil Service Commission . I remember the member asking would people be given consideration - previous employees - in relationship to any new positions that came up in Northern Affairs and I had said , "Yes." MR. McBRYDE: Yes, will the previous employees be given consideration for any new employment that comes up under this section? • MR. MacMASTER: Yes. • MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr.

Chairman , would the Minister then provide us with the redeployment list, so we could see if this commitment is being carried out? MR. CHAIRMAN: (a)-pass; (b)-pass - the Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Well, Mr. Chairman, could the Minister give us some explanation of this section? MR. MacMASTER: . To the Member in specific, from The Pas, the $454,000 you're looking at, that's the same system we were talking about under Northern Affairs, that's 85 percent of what we have spent.

The total figure that we've spent in that particular area is $534 ,000 and the breakdown of that is $12 ,000 for casual wages; other fees are $9,500; rentals are $20,000; printing and stationary is $23,500; postage, telephone and telegraph is $30,000; furniture and furnishings is $15,000; buildings and maintenance supplies is $10,000; utilities is $7,800; equipment is $7,500; automobiles are $75,000; travelling, $120,000 ; clothing, $7,500; subsistence, food and shelter, $75,000; transportation, other than employees, $12,500; other miscellaneous is $60,000 and grants $48,800.00. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, the grant item within the Other Expenditure, could the Minister explain that? MR. MacMASTER: That's the money to the Manitoba Metis Federation for the relocation program in Thompson. MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)-pass - the Honourable Member for The Pas. 'MR. 'McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman , I wonder then, while we're on that item, if the Minister could tell us the number of people that the Metis Federation out of Thompson are now dealing with under that program. MR. MacMASTER: I'll get the specific number, Mr.

Chairman, I believe it's in the neighbourhood of 20 families that have come in that they're still dealing with . , MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I wonder if that Program is now getting up to capacity in terms of the number of people it was designed to handle? .,... MR. MacMASTER: No, it isn't, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: (b)-pass; (c)-pass. The Honourable Member for The Pas. 4691

Monday, May 28, 1979 MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, on the Northern Youth Employment Program , I wonder if the Minister could explain to us the problems that were encountered in this Program last year, and what steps have been taken to overcome those problems in the upcoming year? MR. MacMASTER: I'm not aware of any major problems last year with that particular Program, Mr. Chairman . MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman , has an evaluation been completed of that Program as it operated last summer? MR. MacMASTER: It was reviewed, Mr. Chairman, and found to be reasonably satisfactory. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, I wonder now if the department has reverte d back to hiring adult supervisors for that Program , or whether they intend to continue attempting to use youth as supervisors on some of the projects? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, we have reverted back to adults, Mr. Chairman . MR. McBRYDE: Well, Mr. Chairman , was that done as a result of the evaluation , and did not the evaluation show that there were considerable problems in the Program last year because of the change made , using youth supervisors instead of adult supervisors in that program? MR.

MacMASTER: There were some examples where the young people had difficulty dealing with the younger ones , and it was felt that adults would do a better job , Mr . Chairman . MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I would just like to make a general comment on that section. I am aware , of course , of a number of problems that occurred within that Program because of a change made by the Minister, or by his staff , in the way the Program operated last year . And yet, Mr. Chairman, had I not been aware of those , the Minister would have said there were no problems with the Program. And , Mr.

Chairman, a number of times he's assured us that there 's no problem with the various programs under his jurisdiction and in a number of instances we have specific examples where there were problems . But it appears that some of those where he's told us there were no problems, we've become now quite doubtful, because only in those cases where we have specific examples and confront the Minister with those examples , does he even admit to any problems . Mr. Chairman , I'm glad that the policy has changed back again , because the Program as it existed was reasonably effective.

There were a number of adults within the communities that did build this in in terms of their employment throughout the year , perhaps in the winter , doing some winter fishing or some trapp ing , and then when the season came for the Youth Employment Program , they were hired as supervisors and had the opportunity to work during the summer . Some of them found themselves in a fairly difficu lt situttion last year because of that change . And , Mr.

Chairman, I think that it probably could have been realized that the hiring of some of the students on the Project to actually be the supervisors would cause a considerable problem , because it's a little bit harder when you're dealing with your peers , especially in the age of the people in this Program, to try and supervise them and make sure that they are working hard . Mr. Chairman , that was one of the reasons for the Program. One of the built-in designs of this Program was that the students would get a chance to see what it was like to have to work , Mr.

Chairman, because some of these students would be considering leaving school. And so we wanted to be sure that they had had some idea of what would be expected from them if they did leave school and go into the regular work force . So, Mr.

Chairman , in the past attempts were made to make sure this Program was not an easy program , or a simple program , or a program where people could slough off, but a program that required full-time work , and heavy work or difficult work , so that the students would have the opportunity to see what full-time work was like , and also have the opportunity to earn those funds during the summer so that they could return to school in the fall. Mr.

Chairman , I'm glad the Minister has recognized the problems in the administration of the Program last year, and has now re-evaluated and changed back to the previous existing method of administering the Program . MR. CHAIRMAN: (c)-pass ; (d)-pass ; Item (1)- pass . Item (2)-Salaries-pass . The Honourable Member for The Pas. 4692 • .. .. ·--

Monday, May 28, 1979 MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, how many staff man years are we talking about under this Section? MR. MacMASTER: Four, Mr. Chairman, all regular employees, and all are filled . now. • ~ MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, if a vacancy occurs in one of these four positions, will the Minister be giving priority to persons on the redeployment list, and will the Minister table for us or give a copy of that redeployment list to this side of the House? .. - MR. MacMASTER: That redeployment list will be considered, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: Item (2)-pass; Item (3), Other Expenditures-pass; Item (4), Grant Assistance-pass the Honourable Member for The Pas . MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, could the Minister give us a breakdown under this Section, could he just give us a breakdown of those grant items that we're talking about under this Section? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . If I could just have the honourable members ' attention just for one second, we have in the gallery today 18 students from the Buffalo Grove High School in Chicago, Illinois.

These students are on a singing tour, and are accompanied by the their director, Miss Linda McEachern. On behalf of the honourable members, we welcome you here today . The Honourable Minister. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. . . . -(Interjections)- MR. CHAIRMAN: It's not within my limits to ask them to sing us a song this afternoon, but I'm sure that if it was allowed in the House, that they would be happy enough to oblige. The Honourable Minister. MR.

MacMASTER: The Grant Assistance, there's $130,800 to the Manitoba Metis Federation Core Funding; there's $60,000 to the Manitoba Metis Federation Education Program; there is $6,000 which was additional, going into the Manitoba Metis Relocation Program in Thompson; and $1,800 . I'll have to get the explanation for the other $1,800 , Mr. Chairman, I haven't got it here. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr.

Chairman , since this Minister likes to point out and brag about how he has everything in its logical place within his department, and that's why transfers took place back and forth between sections, I wonder if he could explain why the Grant Assistance is under Employment Services? The Grant Assistance as he explained it, except for the $6,000 addition to the MMF Thompson Relocation Project, is basically for core funding and education, and in the past has appeared under different sections of the Estimates . MR.

MacMASTER: It was felt appropriate that at the time of preparing budgets, that the core funding moneys should come under this particular section, Mr. Chairman, and the $1 ,800 that I hadn't acco unt ed for on the 19860, there's a possibility that that will be used in the Flin Flon Relocation Program , Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for The Pas. ,; MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if there is any logical reason then - the Minister 's reason is that that was a decision made somewhere in the Estimates' process - but the item that's under consideration here is the core funding for the Metis Federation which is the core funding that has been going on for a number of years now, which is basic funding to that organ ization for its operations period . And the Education Prog ram, Mr. Chairman, is specifically related to Education and I believe in the past that

section appeared under the Department of Education Estimates . So I wonder , Mr. Chairman, why they would put it under Employment Services or is the reason to make Employment Services look like it has more money, because it has been cut back so drastically that there has to be some attempt to make it look like there is some dollars under Employment Services because this government has reduced the employment programs in northern Manitoba so drastically that they are now embarrassed with the figure that they are left with . 4693

Monday, May 28, 1979 MR. MacMASTER: Well , Mr. Chairman , there is no embarrassment with the figure that's left. As I said the core funding , it was felt that this was as an appropriate place as any under these particular Estimates for it. MR. CHAIRMAN: (4)-pass; Item (d)-pass; Item (

e) Selkirk Training Plant :

(1) Salaries - The Honourable Leader of the Opposition . MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman , I wonder if the Minister could indicate how many students are in training at the plant presently , whether or not there are any intentions to expand the number of students that will be in training in that plant? Possibly , while the Minister is obtaining that information , I could pose some further questions that the Minister might wish to elaborate on as well.

I'm wondering if the Minister could indicate what the present average length of stay is insofar as students at the Manpower Training Corps , whether there has been any change insofar as the geographic boundaries from whence students are drawn or encouraged to come to the plant , and also I would like the Minister's comments insofar as the very excellent work that has taken place in the last number of years pertaining to social counselling - assisting those students and their families that reside within the town of Selkirk to relate to the various social economic requirements and activities in the area - whether or not that program , which I believe has been very basic , very crucial to the overall success of the Manpower Training Corps Plant , whether that is being continued so as to ensure the overall success of the operations .

In addition , the Minister could provide some information as to the number of staff, whether the number of staff is the same now as it was one year ago. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman , a variety of quest ion s, and I think I have all the answers now . We propose to take in about 24 people every three months , which is a substantial increase from previous times . The length of stay is six months ; the drawing area from whence the people come into the program is generally the same area .

There is still the Home Advisory Capacity and the Plant Counselling Capacity, and there was 11 last year, staff , and there is 11 proposed for the year 1979-80 . MR. PAWLEY: I wonder if the Minister can indicate whether or not there is any evaluation of the present operations of the plant , and any consideration being given to expanding the present operation of the plant due to its past success. MR. MacMASTER: There is a - as I mentioned to the Leader of the Opposition - there is a substantial expansion in numbers of people coming into the plant and utilizing the program.

And the other answer in relationship to evaluating it, I think the evaluat ion is, as has been said , that it was working well. We intend to increase the input by numbers of clients if you wish, students if you wish, that come into it, and we'll evaluate that to capac ity to carry on as efficient an operation with the increased numbers as we go along , but the specific answer is yes, we will be evaluating the increased number of people who have been participating in that program . MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Chairman , in addition , I'm wondering if the Minister would comment.

I believe in times gone by there has been interest from the Federal Department of Parks to acquire products from the plant , and I believe that for reasons of restrictions or prhibitions , and I believe this occurred prior to change in government, those orders were never accepted by the plant.

I wonder if the Minister can advise whether or not , besides the Parks Branch , Manitoba being and has been the sole customer , whether or not there is any intention or any examination as to whether to expand the customer range to include federal government Parks Branch , or any private entrepreneur that might wish to acquire the products of the plant for retail sale. MR. MacMASTER : Mr. Chairman , our first prior ity of course was the province , as has been the case, and we have issued one order to the federal government not too long ago, I understand . MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman , I would just like to express a few words. I believe that this plant, with the attendant social counselling that has gone with the plant and the home advisory service has been one of the most successful operations . I be lieve it has succeeded in attracting a number of potentially skillful young people from the various Native communities throughout the Interlake into training ; and 1 belie ve it can be safely said that a majority have entered into the industrial 4694 "

• Monday, May 28, 1979 field and are working in various plants in the city of Winnipeg and other centres throughout the province . And I believe that in the existence of a plant such as this could very well be the seeds of future manpower training, and job skill creation . Plus the fact that there has been sufficient support, and I'm pleased that the Minister has confirmed that the Home Advisory Service is being continued.

Because, what has happened is that the families moving into Selkirk, after a short period of time, with the assistance of the Home Advisory Committees, Home Advisory staff, have fitted very very comfortably within the urban centre; probably better than they might have in a larger urban centre , and have been able to commence new hopes and aspirations for the future . So, Mr. Chairman , I want to simply indicate that I'm pleased and satisfied that the Minister has indicated that the present service is being maintained. There was some concern as to whether it would be.

I'm pleased to receive the Minister's assurance that the present operation will be maintained, and that I do get the impression that the Minister would not be altogether reluctant to even see some positive expansion if need be in the operations of the plant in the future. So, that's all I wish to say in respect to this particular item , Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister has a general breakdown in terms of where the trainees are coming from that are taking advantage of this opportunity at the Selkirk Training Plant, the geographical location of the trainees? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. MacMASTER: Mainly in the Selkirk area, Mr. Chairman. I could, I suppose, produce a list of communities that they're coming from, if the member so desires, but it's ... MR. McBRYDE: Interlake? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, up to that area, too . I could get a list for expediency's sake, I suppose , a list of communities that the people do come from. MR.

McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman , the reason I asked that question is that where a considerable number of people in the past , like from my own constituency , from the Peguis , Fisher River, Jackhead , Fairford, Little Saskatchewan, and Lake St.

Martin Reserves,and from some of the other more remote communities in that area that had taken advantage, I think my primary interest was to see if there was a change in this pattern, whether there was much change in where the trainees were coming from, whether there were more from further south now or whether they were still getting the same number of trai nees from the northern Interl ake area. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1)-pass - the Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE : Yes, Mr. Chairman.

On this item, and because of the response the Minister gave to my colleague , the Leader of the Opposition, I wonder if the Minister could explain to us the criteria that he has used in making a decision in this type of operation . The Minister , of course , has indicated his satisfaction with the way this operation was going .

And I wonder, therefore, if he could tell us what the differences are in his mind in terms of the ... as for example the Youngs Point operation that was operated by Northern Manpower Corp at one point , which was doing inside furniture , such as cupboards , etc ., for the Remote Housing Program and other housing programs . Or the Cranberry Portage Project , what would be the difference between the Selkirk Training Plant and the Cranberry Portage Housing Operation that employed a large number of Metis people from the community of Cranb erry Portage?

Or, what would be the difference between this operation, and some of the MANWOP operations that were based upon a study of this operation, that his colleague, the Minister of Health and Social Development , has done away with? Or, what would be the comparison between this operation, for example, Mr. Chairman, and Minago Contractors? Does this operation make a similar kind of profit that Minago was making before this Minister shut it down . I'm having trouble, Mr.

Chairman , understanding the criteria in terms of which survive and which don't survive, of those operations that are performing a very similar function , and I wonder, Mr. Chairma n, if it relates to the fact that this particular plant wasn't under the Minister 's jurisdiction originally , when he made some of these other cuts, and therefore it managed to survive, or is there some clear criter ia based upon evaluation and logic that would say this plant continues , and others 4695

Monday, May 28, 1979 are closed down. MR. MacMASTER: Mr . Chairman , I simply talk about the plant in question , and I've had a good many people review the history of it, and talk to me about it, and it's serving a very worthy cause . And it's mingling the training with the relocation , and the Home Advisory functions are all working well into this particular program . MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr . Chairman , I'm very pleased to hear that. I've had a number of people talk to me about the very worthwhileness of a number of northern projects that are very similar in nature to this project.

And those other very worthwhile projects have been eliminated by this Minister . So I wondered if there 's any clear criteria on which he bases the decision as to which worthwhile projects , training and employing people from remote communities , mostly native people, whether there 's any clear criteria on which he bases his decision that one should be cut out, done away with, and those job opportunities and training opportunities lost , and this operation . MR. CHAIRMAN: (1)-pass - the Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Well , Mr.

Chairman , I can understand the Minister 's unwillingness to answer the question, because obvious ly he has made some decisions without criteria. And , Mr. Chairman, I would say, without proper consideration and forethought , without proper planning and realizing what was going to happen to people being trained and employed in those projects . And , Mr. Chairman, we have outlined a number of those in the past.

And I cannot see a clear distinction between this operation and those , except that the Minister had those other operations under his jurisdicti on when it was important to him to make a good impression on the Premier . Now he's made that impression by showing how much he could cut , even though it was worthwhile , productive , and many people had spoken to me about the worthwhileness of it. Now , Mr.

Chairman , the Selkirk Training Plant has fallen under his jurisdiction , and since the serious cutting of employment projects is completed , there is no need for him at this point in time to cut this particular operation . I wonder , Mr.

Chairma n, if the Minister would be willing , since he's able to justify this Selkirk Training Plant , if he'd be willing to go back to his colleagues for next Estimates , or this year with supplemental , and explain to them the worthwhileness of this Selkirk Training Plant. and let his colleagues know there are still facilities in a number of communities that are now not in operation because this Minister closed them down , where a very similar type of operation could be established . It could be established at Youngs Point near The Pas. It could be established at Cranberry Portage .

It could be established at Camperville, Mr. Chairman. They could even be established in Thompson . And I wonder if the Minister would be willing to go back to his colleagues and let them know the mistake that he made in his early days as Minister , and encourage them to approve this kind of project for northern Manitoba . MR. MacMASTER: The particular programs that the member is talking about were well-explained last year in our Estimates , and some of them are still in operation .

Some have hopes for expanding their operation, and as I have said , we are expanding this particular operation , this one here , the Selkirk Training Plant , this year. MR. CHAIRMAN: (1)-pass - the Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. BARROW: Yes, before you pass , Mr. Chairman , I'd like to ask a few questions about the Sunrise Homes Manufacturers in Cranberry Portage . Could the Minister expound at all on this program? MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please . If I could just mention to the honourable members, we are on an item called " Selkirk Training Plant " .

I have allowed a little bit of latitu de in comparison , but discussion on other items other than Selkirk Training Plant, I would believe to be out of order . I would recognize the Honourable Member for Flin Flon if he's going to proceed on the Selkirk Training Plant. MR. BARROW: I'm sorry , Mr. Chairman . My colleague brought it up just prior to my getting up , so I am .. . MR. CHAIRMAN: As a comparison to the honourable member , but not to be discussed at this 4696 ·-

-' -...... .. • Monday, May 28, 1979 point.

(1) Salaries;

(2) Other Expenditures-pass . - the Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Yes Mr. Chairman. The nature of the recoveries from Canada , the source of the recoveries from Canada. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. MacMASTER: It comes from the Canadian Unemployment Insurance Commission and it's your Basic Job Training Maintenance Program that we're talking about here, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: (2)-pass; (e)-pass. (

f) Employment and Youth Services, Item 1, Administration Salaries-pass - the Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. MacBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman . I would like to ask a general question under this

section . I would ask, Mr. Chairman , under any of the items that are administered under this section, is there any assistance, any employment opportunities, any of these items that are at this time , or will this summer, apply to the community of Easterville? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. MacMASTER: I think in general , Mr. Chairman, there are several of them that could, if the proper applications were forthcoming . MR. MacBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I think under this

section here , that is an employment

section and youth services, and I know that that community attempts to take advantage of any opportunity available to them . But I think , Mr. Chairman , under this item, it would be appropriate to just get into the record the problem as seen by the community of Easterville in terms of their employment situation. Mr. Chairman , this is from a letter from the Chemahawin Indian band which is located at Easterville , dated May 9th, 1979 to Mr. Ken MacMaster , Minister of Northern Affairs. And this is from the chief of the Chemahawin Indian band, Mr. Percy Mink . "Dear Mr.

MacMaster: I've been approached by one of my band members in regard to the possibility of the Chemahawin band obtaining provincial government contracts for the loading and hauling of gravel for use on the Easterville road and PTA No. 327. " The Chemahawin band would also like to express some feelings on the recent Conservative government cutbacks . Last year, along with other corporate companies , Minago Contractors were cut. Minago, I feel, did a lot more to help the Chemahawin band than any other government body or agency .

Minago trained and hired people from Easterville to work while construction of the Easterville road was under way. Now the private contractors are doing the work and no one from Easterville has been hired . On top of that, there are timber cutting crews along the road who are not from Easterville . There are sawmills operating with no one from Easterville working on them. As per the letter of Letter of Intent, the forebay agreement, permission to cut in the Grand Rapids Forest Management Area West had to be obtained from the federal Department of Indian Affairs Branch.

To this date I believe none has been granted to those presently there. " At present our fishing is closed, our fenoe post operation was shut down by the provincial Conservative government, our band logging was shut down by Indian Affairs. Our grazing lands were flooded at our old reserve , our duck hunting areas are flooded . Our additional trapping areas are flooded. With muskrats selling at approximately $6.00 each, we're losing considerable moneys . Our trappers used to catch 4,000 to 5,000 rats per spring. What choice do we have but to collect welfare to survive? " We want to work and support ourselves .

All we need are a few opportunities such as Minago to get us started . But since Minago is closed, what option do we have? Therefore I'm requesting your department's assistance in helping the Chemahawin band to purchase a gravel truck and loader and also to see the Chemahawin band receives contracts for the loading and hauling of all future work required on the Easterville road and PTA No. 327 . My people and I anxiously await your generous and favourable reply ." And that's Percy Mink of the Chemahawin Indian band. Now Mr.

Chairman, the letter summarizes a few of the things that I have raised in this House in the past in regard to many remote communities. It puts them specifically in the context of the Chemahawin band at Easterville , and Mr. Chairman, the same thing applies to the non-treaty people in the community of Easterville and to their particular community council. And Mr. Chairman, that is why I would ask the Minister, and maybe the Minister 's officials have a chance to check further whether there are any of these programs under

Section (

f) here that in fact will be going to Easterville this year. In the past, Mr. Chairman, they 've been able to, through constructive, meaningful 4697

Monday, May 28, 1979 been able to employ most of their people for a good part of the year. Occasionally they've had to plug it in with programs like this , such as Winter Works and Youth Employment Program , the Canada Works , etc . to plug in the gaps of employment opportunities in that community and avoid people in their community going on welfare . So I wonder if the Minister could give us some indication in that one specific example, if that community will be receiving any assistance under this

section . MR. MacMASTER: I can 't say to the member at the moment whether they will or they won 't, but the opportunity is there for them under several of these particular headings , Mr. Chairman . MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman. I wonder if we could get the staff man year breakdown last year, this year and what changes there are in that. MR.

MacMASTER: Last year there were seven regular , 22 term for 29 positions and one was vacant during the course of the year , and I have dropped that particular vacant position and we have converted the term to regular so this year, instead of seven , there 's 27, there 's regular and there's one at the moment term for a total of 28. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman . Under this particular

section , I wonder if the Minister could indicate - Mr. Chairman, it covers the whole series of categories here or a whole series of separate operations, basically . I wonder if the Minister could indicate , since this government came to office, how many people have been fired under this

section . MR. MacMASTER: There weren 't any people fired , Mr. Chairman , but there were three people that took severence from employment with the government. MR. McBRYDE: Yes Mr . Chairman . I just wonder if the Minister could clarify for me whether all staff are under (f)(1) or whether , for example, No. (7), No. (6) or No. (5) would have staff components in them as well. MR. MacMASTER: We can talk about the staff in (5), (6) and (7). MR. McBRYDE: Okay Mr. Chairman . I wonder then if, since there are also staff provisions in those sections I won 't deal with them .

I wonder if the Minister could clarify if those three people that took the option , Mr. Chairman , when the government gave them an offer they couldn't refuse, I wonder if he could confirm that those were offers that , if you resign voluntarily we'll give you three months' severence pay . If you don't resign voluntarily you 'll be fired and you won 't get three months ' .. severence pay . Is that the option that people were given? .. MR. MacMASTER: I can't say if that was the option . I just know that the people in question chose to resign and take the severence pay. MR. McBRYDE: Yes Mr. Chairman .

I would just like to submit for the record that that was the option given to those people . MR. CHAIRMAN: (1)-pass ;

(2) Other Expenditures-pass - the Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Well , Mr. Chairman , could we just have a brief breakdown of this section? MR.

MacMASTER: I'll spell out to the member if there is any differences in giving the headings ; no, there 's no difference as far as amounts go and the headings were Wages and Other Assistance Fringe Benefits , Professional Fees, Real Estate Rentals , Furn ishings , Printing and Stationery, Postage, Telephone , Equipment , Automobiles , Advertising and Exhibit , Publications, Freight , Travelling, Other Expenditures , Educational Assistance , Subsistence to Non-Employees and Transportation for Non-Employees and there are two grants . One has been finalized for a Junior Achievement Program in Manitoba .

It's a pilot project this year , called Summer Enterprises, Manitoba. And the other amount of $25 ,000 we are presently meeting with the Winnipeg School Division and the City of Winnipeg 's Parks and Recreation group , and we expect a program to be implemented in that particular area . MR. CHAIRMAN: (2)-pass - the Honourable Member for The Pas. 4698 • ·-

Monday, May 28, 1979 MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry, I missed the amount for this undertaking called the Junior Achievement Program, and when the Minister is repeating that, if he did give the amount for that program, I wonder if he could explain what they hope to accomplish with this program . MR. MacMASTER: There's 25,000.00 . The federal government has funded 18 counsellors who will -... be endeavouring to develop small companies to do a large variety of things, and our funds will help them with materials and space.

They expect to employ approximately 150 young people who , through the companies they organize the different activities they carry on will pay for their own salaries. MR. McBRYDE: Yes Mr . Chairman . In light of that information, I wonder if the Minister could give me a little better breakdown for helping me understand the administrative structure of this section, because he did indicate that some salaries come under (5), (6), and (7). He has an item called Wages in this

section and I'm not clear, Mr. Chairman - like the 27 staff that are there - would some of those staff relate to programs lower down or would they just be involved in the head office administration for this whole section? I wonder if he would give us more of a breakdown in terms of those staff and to what component they belong to? MR. MacMASTER: The staff that we were talking about deal with the staff for the core funding for the (1), (2), (3) and (4) and this I mentioned to the member that (5), (6) and (7) there is additional staff there . MR. CHAIRMAN: (2)-pass - the Honourable Member for The Pas. MR.

McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, then of that 27 people then, how many would be for number (2) and how many would be for number (3), and how many would be for number (4)? MR. MacMASTER: It's all intermingled as of one operation with that core group of people running those particular programs , Mr. Chairman . It's terribly difficult to break out the number of hours and work each one is assigned to what particular program. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman , are the wages that he mentioned under Other Expenditures; I'm not clear how that fits in there. Could he explain that at least? MR.

MacMASTER: The amount is identical to last year; $1,500, and it is just calculated out as the amount of money that might be assigned to that particular program. MR. CHAIRMAN: (2)-pass ; (3)-pass - the Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry, under the item that were on; it's still not clear what the wages .. . We have Salaries and then under Other Expenditures we have Wages, and I still can't quite figure out what the wages would be about and why they're not under Salaries instead of under Other Expenditures. MR.

MacMASTER: I'll try and get it precisely broken out how we came with that figure, Mr. Chairman. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, would like to make a comment on this Other Expenditure

section ; a new program for $25,000.00. When the Minister has been involved in reducing most of the programs and most of the programs for northern Manitoba, now his new initiative for this year is $25,000 for a Junior Achievement Program. Now, Mr, Chairman, as I understand the Junior Achievement Program, it would be similar to the Special Northern Employment Program, which was basically seed money to people in remote communities to assist them to start enterprise in their community that would provide employment in their communities. Of course, Mr.

Chairman, the sum of that program ranging from $5 million to $8 million a year, was somewhat more substantial than the $25 ,000 we have for Junior Achievement . But , Mr. Chairman, the Special Northern Employment Program was a program for adults who were unable to find employment. It was a program to begin enterprises to assist adults who were unable to find employment , Mr. Chairman, a program designed

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-3-69a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 3rd hansardpdf 69a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	248ed45f645f831c66d2ce0a3cbedee9c1d0a84a

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