Manitoba Hansard — 21 September 1989 (Sitting 34, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

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Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, September 21, 1989. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to table the Thi rd.Qu arterly Report of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with

Section 42 of The Ombudsman Act, I am pleased to table the Nineteenth Annual Report of the Ombudsman for the calendar year January 1, 19 88, to December 31, 19 88. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS BILL NO. 39-THE HUMAN TIS SUE AMENDMENT ACT Hon. Clayton Manne as (Minis ter of Finance) introduced, on behalf of the Honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae), Bill No. 39, The Human Tissue Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les tissus hu mains. BILL NO. 40-THE LAND SURVEYORS AMENDMENT ACT Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance) introduced, on behalf of the Honourable Minister of Justice (Mr. Mccrae), Bill No. 40, The Land Surveyors Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les arpenteurs geometres. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Skills Unlimited Funding Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Family Services Minister (Mrs. Oleson). We have been informed tha t the Programs Branch of the Department of Family Services recom mende d that fu ndin g levels be maintained, or indeed increased , to Skills Unlimited and other agencies deal ing with th e mentally hand icapped. Will the Minister of Family Services tell us today who made the decision to make these cuts? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): Mr.

Speaker, the Skills Unlimited have been informed tha t the y are not to cut service to people in the interim while we are reviewing the funding so tha t we can come up with a proper funding formula for tha t agency and others like it. We had undertaken the review and it did not go along as speedily as we would have liked. Budgets, of course, are set long before this. They had indicated to my department in discussions tha t the y would like to change the focus of their agency to reflect the admirable the ory tha t people would like to be in the work force.

In changing the focus of course of their agency, th ere would need to be chang es in funding. ·. Mrs. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, well, obviously it was this Minister her self who agreed to the funding cut. Skills Unlimited informed the Minister four weeks before the employees' last day of work tha t th ese and hand icapped employees would be let go. Why did she refuse to act until this matter was raised in this House yesterday? Mrs. Oleson: The important thing to realize for the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs) is that th ose jobs are going to be maintained. There was no intent to cut service. Mrs.

Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, but they would have been cut permanently if it had not been raised in this Cham ber. Family Services Minister Premier's Support Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): I have a supplementary question to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon), Mr. Speaker. The Premier is contributing to the chaos in this department because of his refusal to remove the Minister of Fam ily Services (Mrs. Oleson). Will the First Minister justify to this House this afternoon why he still has confidence in this Minister who mismanages each and ·every

section of her department? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): The cha os is in the mind of the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs). We can see by the different approaches tha t the Leader. of the Opposition takes issue every time there is a problem in the House. This year, this month, it is on one side of an issue, the next month it is on the other side of an issue, one time she is criticizing appointments and other times she is lauding appointments. It goes on and on and on. She is on every side of every issue. Mr.

Speaker, the fact of the matter is that this Minister and this Government have increased funding for Family Services by over 9 percent, double the average increase of departments across the board in Government, double given to Community Services. The fact of the matter is tha t commitments have been made at the Treasury Board table, at the Cabi net Ta ble, on the recommendation of the Minister. The increased funding for th at department ha s been provided because of the leadersh ip and the urging of the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson), and tha t Minister will continue 11 56

Thursday, September 21, 1989 to work on behalf of the groups tha t are served by Family Services. Mrs . Carstairs: Then, Mr. Speaker, the groups with in the province being served by this Minister have my deepest sympathies. Federal Equalization Payments Cutbacks Mrs . Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I have a new question to the First Minister (Mr. Filmon).

The Premier of British Columbia is quoted today as having made the stat ement tha t our province is supportive of the view and our Premier is supportive of the view tha t provinces should give back to the federal Government monies that the y are presently receiving from equal ization payments and transfer payments in a most incredible way. Mr. Speaker, our Premier (Mr. Filmon) has often been critical of our need for such payments which are based of course on our have-not status.

Can he tell the House this afternoon how much he is prepared to give back to the federal Government in terms of transfer payments and equal ization payments, and is this part of why we take from the mentally hand icapped to give to the feds? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Let us be very, very clear as to wha t I have said about tha t Leader of the Opposition's (Mrs. Carstai rs) state ments, and tha t is tha t I object to her calling Manitoba a have-not province. Tha t is an insult to the people of this province. Tha t is an absolute insult.

She did not say tha t we were recipients of equalization or transfer payments when she made tha t statement. Sh e went off to Toronto speaking to the Canadian Club and said, I come from a have-not province. I do not come from a have-not province. I come from a strong province. * ( 13 40) I come from a province tha t has the people, the resources, the energy and the desire to be a very strong and powerful force in this country, and under our leadersh ip, indeed, the y will be. The y never would be under hers if she had the opportunity. Payments Mrs.

Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): One can only assume from that answer tha t the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of this province is prepared to give up equal ization payments from the federal Gove rnment. Mr. Speaker, I was going to ask the question, how did Mr. Vander Zal m come to tha t rem arkable conclusion, but now the question is, how did the Premier come to tha t remarkable conclusion? Hon . Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I have no idea wha t the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstai rs) is talking about. I have no idea wha t Mr. Vander Zalm said.

Let me tell you tha t before she was involved in Government, I was here in this Legislature fighting for increased equalization payments, fighting for increasing transfer payments so tha t we could provide the highe st levels of services in health care and post-secondary education and all of the areas of responsibility th at people depend upon us for. My position has never changed, nor will it ever change, regardless of what the Leader of the Opposition says, Mr. Speaker. Federal Equalization Payments Documentation Request Mrs .

Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): I have a final supplementary to the Premier of the province. In tha t Mr. Vander Zalm is stating very clearly tha t Premier Ga ry Filmon agrees with his statements with regard to equal ization payments, will the First Minister table a letter in the House today that we assume tha t he wrote to the Premier of British Colum bia disassoc iating hims elf with the remarks made by the Premier of British Columbia? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Hon . Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, I will repeat for the edification of the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstai rs) tha t I believe tha t Ottawa has an obligation to the people of this province to provide for equalization and transfer payments, to provide for the kind of standards and quality of service tha t our people deserve in health care, education, and all of th ose areas tha t people depend upon Governments for. I will continue to fight and fight as hard as I can with every breath I take to ensure tha t the people of this province get tha t sup port from Otta wa tha t th ey deserve, and everything she says is absolute nonsense.

If Mr. Vander Zalm said anyth ing like she attributes to him, then he was wrong. Mentally Handicapped Funding Reinstatement Ms . Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr. Speaker, the Premier (Mr. Filmon) says we are not from a have not province, but it is clear we ha ve a ha ve- not Government. We have cha os. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , ple ase; ord er, ple ase. The Honourable Member for St. Johns has the floor. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: This is a serious question. We have ch aos in our valuable child care system.

We now ha ve cha os in the val uable services for mentally ha ndicapped people in this province. Yesterday we made public the fact tha t the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson) has callously cut at least th ree valuable services to the mentally hand icapped. Today we have had no clarification of the state of those th ree programs. 115 7

Thursday, September 21, 1989 I want to ask the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson) if, after reflect ing on this overnight, she has had second sober thoughts, and what are her plans in terms of reinstating funds to Skills Unlimited, to the Employment Preparation Centre and to ARM Industries in Brandon? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): I believe I answered that question in an answer to the Lead er of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs). I ha ve indicated to tha t organization and the other organization that they are not to cut services to people.

Those people will be reinstated and the y will have their jobs. Employment Preparation Centre Funding Reinstatement Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. Johns, with her supplementary question. Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. John s): Mr. Speaker, it is a little hard for an organization to reinstate the � positions if they do not have the money. I' My question is to the Minister of Fa mily Services (Mrs. Oleson).

If she cannot give us a straight answer on the 12 victims for Skills Unlimited, can she tell us today how she is responding to the serious impact her cutback is havi ng on the Employment Preparation Centre leaving 15 clients at bay, leaving 15 clients ' without service and with no end in sight from this Government? How is she planning to deal with tha t situation? Is she reinstating the funds? Is she finding places for tho se 15 clients? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): The funds will be provided. They had been told tha t they were not to cut services to people.

As I told the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs), we are undertaking a review of th ese programs to see wh at the appropriate funding and focus should be at them. In the interim, we are providing funds. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. Johns, with a supplementary question. � Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: My question to the Minister is straightforward. Will she reinstate, immediately, $21 ,000 to Skills Unlimited of Winnipeg? Will she commit herself today to reinstate $7,400 to ARMS Industries Inc. of Brandon?

Will she reinstate $ 18 ,000, immediately, to Employment Preparation Centres so that the y can provide the val uable services to the mentally hand icapped of this province? Mrs. Oleson: Mr. Speaker, I wonder how many times I have to tell the Member tha t funds will be provided. Family Services Staffing Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. Johns, with her final supplementary question. Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (SI. Johns): My final question is to the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson).

Can she explain to this House today why she has, in addition to cutting th ose valuable services, decided to cut staff in Family Services in northern Manitoba, specifically in Thompson, why eight positions are vacant, why valuable counselling services and other family and child benefits are being denied to northern residents of this province because this Minister ha s refused to fill eight positions, and is resulting in critical cutbacks in the North? Hon. Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, the

preamble tha t the Member gives to a supplementary question is incredible. There have been no cutback to staff positions in Thom pson. The positions will be filled when people are available to fill them. Freedom of Information Act Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): My question is to the Minister responsible for The Freedom of Information Act and concerns the interference and the obstruction by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) on legitimate requests through the Act.

Last Tuesday the Minister stated in the House tha t the objective of the groups were the reasons for denial of information stored in the MOS computers. My question is, does the Act proh ibit the releasing of information solely on the basis of what the applicant intends to do with tha t information? Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister responsible for The Freedom of Information Act): I bel ieve tha t the Mini ster of Financ e (Mr . Man ness) an swe red the question why the re was refusal of information given under The Freedom of Information Act, earlier this week. Mr. Angus: Mr.

Speaker, The Freedom of Information Act does not prohibit the releasing of information simply because of what the appl icant is going to use it for. * (13 50) Wha t action is this Minister going to take on the issue in regard to

Section 60 of the Act tha t states, "Every person who without lawfu l jus tification

a) willf ull y obstructs, . . . is guilty of an offence punishable by a summa ry conviction." What actions are you going to take? Mrs . Mitchelson: There is a very definite course tha t can be followed if somebody applies for information . under the Freedom of Information Act, and it is not accessed for any whatever reason. They can file papers with the Ombudsman, and he will determine whether in fact the information is information that can be withheld, and his decision will be the final decision. Some Honourable Members: Hear, hear! Freedom of Information Act Obstruction - Finance Minister Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert, with his final supplementary question. 115 8

Thursday. September 21, 19 89 Mr. John Angus (St . Norbert): Mr. Speaker, I have a qu est ion to the Premi er. We all appla uded th e introduction to the Freedom of Information Act, but under wha t justification does the Premier allow a Minister to go beyond his portfolio and obstruct other departments from fulfilling their legal obligation. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) appears to have broken the spirit of the law. Wha t is the First Minister going to do about it? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, despite the fact tha t the former New Democrat ic administration had sat on tha t Act. and failed to proclaim it for more than a year -(interjection)- If the Member for Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr) has something to say, let him get on his feet instead of calling from his seat all the time like a little chi ld. Tha t is all he does. He has nothing positive to contribute here, and I would appreciate if you would tell him wha t to do.-(lnterjection)- Both of you . Mr. Speaker: Order , ple ase; or der, please . The Honourable First Minister has the floor. Mr.

Fil mon: Despite the fact th at the former administration for more than a year, almost two years, did not proclaim the Freedom of Information Act, we proclaimed it with in months of coming into Government, and we are very proud of tha t, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, tha t Act has provisions In it- legal provisions-tha t dictate under what circumstances when , and how, and where -t hat information will be provided. There are time lines and ther e are procedures. If any Minister of this Government does not follow the law and does not obey the law, the Mem ber for St.

Norbert has been told th ere is an appeal to the Ombudsman and the Ombudsman's decision will then be taken into account and followed . If he has any concern about it, he can go thr ough the process. That is all there is to it and we will abide by the law. Tha t is why we implemented it and tha t is why we proclaimed the Freedom of Information Act. Deer Lodge Hospital Acute Care Beds Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan): Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) continues to waste taxpayers' dollars. Over 200 beds in acute care facilities are occupied by chronic care patients. Mr.

Speaker, the tragedy is that 90 beds have been available at Deer Lodge Hospital for almost th ree months. Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister is why is he wasting $40,000 per day in Manitoba to have the se patients in acute care beds when we need the beds for the surgical patients? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister for Health): Mr.

Speaker, as my honourable friend well knows, for a number of years-p robably seven or eight-tha t certain numbers of beds in all our hospital facilities are available for th ose patients who are longer-term stay, who have been panelled for personal care hom es�t o my knowledge, tho se numbers of beds are being occupied, not over capacity in any particular facility and according to wha t has been a long-standing use of tho se facilities. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Kildonan, with a supplementary question. Mr. Cheema: Mr.

Speaker, why when this Minister promised last year on November 30, 19 88, to give a report by mid-s ummer has there been a delay in the task force report on the extended care beds. This Minister knew tha t the Deer Lodge Hospital beds were coming and he was at the opening ceremony. Why is he wast ing $40,000 per day of our taxpayers' money when this Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson) is not getting enough for the childr en of Manitoba. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker , in the cou rse of the Estimates debate, I hope to teach my Honourable friends something.

Some Honourable Members: Hear, hearl Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Kildonan (Mr. Ch eema), with his final supplementary question. � Mr. Cheema: Yes, Mr. Speaker, when he is wast ing $40,000 . . . , the Minister scoffs at the question. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Speaker, can he tell us today, when should we expect that these beds will be properly used at Deer Lodge Hospital? Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I believe my Honourable friend wishe s an answer, and so do I.

Tha t Is exactly the process tha t a task force of rather knowledgeable Individuals are considering in terms of the requirements and the needs for extended care beds, or what had formerly been called extended care beds in the system of Manitoba. Tho se decisions will be made when I am satisfied that we are making the most appropriate use of very scarce taxpayer dollars, because if we make wrong decisions as have been made in the past, then all types of services do not ha ve funding available to i them when Governments in past have wasted money. � Surely my Honourable friend would not encourage that.

Single Industry Communities Government Support Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Speak er, this Gover nment has created a crisis in Family Services and now the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) in particular is presiding over a growing crisis and sense of despair in northern communities, particularly mining communities, about a lack of this Government's support for single industry communities. Mr. Speaker , one com mun ity has alr eady been devastated by the loss of 140 jobs and another community, the community of Lynn Lake, is th reatened with the loss of 250 jobs.

Can the Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) indicate to the House today and to the people of Lynn Lake in particular whether , as a result of the review of the ch "cumstances at 11 59

Thursday, September 21, 1989 LynnGold , whether the Government has now decided that it actually will make a commitment to the people of Lynn Lake and the workers there, as the y are entitled to expect? Hon . Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, we have said from the outset tha t we will not make a commitment unless it is for a long-term solution for the community of Lynn Lake. To date we have not been assured that the proposals that have come forward are a long-term sol ution. We ha ve received from Strathcona Resources a preliminary report. We expect the final report to come in next week.

I am meeting next week with the Chairman of LynnGold Resources and perhaps we can come to a decision, but I repeat, I will not recommend to Cabinet tha t we make a commitment unless it is for the long-term solution of the community. Lynn Lake Mining Proposal � Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon, with a supplementary question. Mr. Jerry Storie (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, the Minister's answer is indicative of the problem. The Minister has indicated tha t the y have received a report. My question is to the Minister.

Has the Minister of Energy and Mines taken the time, sho wn enough interest to prepare a proposal from the provincial Gove rnment to indicate what needs to be done to save this community? Must the Minister rely on others, does he not have enough energy, enough creativity, enough ima gina tion to prepar e a proposal so that the community of Lynn Lake can survive and the workers and their families will be protected? Has the Minister put forward any concrete, specific proposal to save tha t community? Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines. - * (14 00) Hon .

Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, I do believe I have the creativity, I have the imagination, I have the energy. I do not have enough money, tha t is my problem. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please. Ord er. Honourable Minister. Mr. Neufeld: I will repeat. I do not think it is in the best interest of Manitoba taxpayers to enter into an agreement, to make a commitment, unless it is for the long-term solution of the community, and tha t is wha t we are waiting for. We ha ve no proposal from Strathcona.

Wha t we have from Strathcona is a review of the proposal made by the company. We have made a verbal proposal to the company. We expect to meet with the company on Monday, and when the time comes to make that proposal public, we will do so. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon, with his final supplementary question. Mr. Storie: Mr. Speaker, the Minister says he has made a. verbal proposal and he asks where the money is going to come from. He took $200 million out of northern Manitoba in mining taxes in 19 88-89.

My question to the Minister is: will he instruct his official, Manitoba Mineral Resources or other officials in the department, to come up with the proposal to eliminate the crisis, the uncertainty tha t Northerne rs feel in mining communities in Lynn Lake and Flin Flon. Will he come up with proposals to solve the problems of the modernization at Flin Flon and the mining crisis in Lynn Lake? Will he put th ose proposals in writing? Would he show them to people in Manitoba so we know he is doing something. Mr. Neufeld: Well, we will deal only with the problem at Lynn Lake for now, Mr. Speaker.

Is it the proposal of the Member for Flin Flon tha t we finance a mining community indefinitely or is it the proposal of the Member for Flin Flon tha t we bridge a period of time when the mine can be economic again? It is up to the company to determine, it is up to a proposal to sho w th at it is a bridging, it is not a long-term financing problem. If it is a bridging problem we will be prepared to talk. If it is a long-term financing problem, it is quite another matter. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. Free Trade Agreement Springhill Farms Limited Mr.

Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): Earlier this week, the federal Government announced that it would not be attempting to make an assessment of the impact of free trade at the end of the first anniversary of the implementation of this particular Act. Now here in Manitoba I do not think there is any difficulty in starting to identify the impact of this particular Act. My question is to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Tourism (Mr. Ernst). Can he tell the House what initiatives are being taken to ensure the continued operation of this Springhill plant at Neepawa? Hon .

Jim Erns t (Min ister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): I am pleased to advise my honou rable friend from the constituency of Fort Garry that a number of initiatives have taken place. We have had discussions with a number of potential buyers at tha t particular facility bearing in mind, Mr. Speaker, tha t tha t facility from Day One virtually has been in financial difficulty. It really never made money at all. It had financial problems right from the start and it has absolutely nothing to do with free trade as my honour able friend tries to allege. Mr.

Speaker, we are meeting regularly with various groups who are interested in attempted purchase joint venture or some other consideration tha t will see the Springhill plant continue. 11 60

Thursday, September 21, 1989 Springhill Farms limited Pork Countervail Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for Fort Ga rry, with a supplementary question. Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): My suppl ementary is to the Minister of Agriculture, and I would like the Minister of Agricu lture to tell us whether or not the countervail on hogs and pork tha t ha s been imposed by the United States is a significant factor in the diffulties encountered at Neepawa. Hon . Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Speaker, as the Minister of Indus try, Trade and Tourism (Mr.

Ernst) indicated tha t the Springhill plant has been in difficulty financially since Day One. It has been losing money, various amounts at different times, and free trade and the countervail by itself is not the cause of the difficulty at Neepawa, but it is a factor. It is a factor tha t has created some difficulty, but I would like to also tell the Member tha t countervail is being fought from this country very aggressively. If it was not for the Free Trade Agreement, we would not have a dispute settling mechanism wher e we can take it and se ttle th e argument. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr.

Speaker: Order. Order, please. Free Trade Agreement Subsidy Definition Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): It is very obvious tha t the greatest flaw in the Free Trade Agreement was the failure to agree on the definition of a subsidy before the agreement was signed. Can the Min ister of Agriculture (Mr.

Findlay) tell us wha t initiatives he is taking to ensure tha t the definition of a subsidy is one tha t is acceptable to the Gover nment of Manitoba, and second, tha t tha t definition will be arrived at long before the five to seven years that is agreed to in the Free Trade Agreement, because by then it will be far too late? Hon . Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): I take great exception to a number of Opposition Members making fun of difficulties in the pork industry, making critical fun.

I have made a very significant issue of this point at every federal-provincial meeting in the last th ree months, of which th ere have been thr ee, and only one province has raised this issue, put it on the table and agg ressively pursued resolution. It has not been a Liberal Government from Ontario, Quebec or New Brunswick, and 54 percent of tha t countervail is due strictly to provincial programs in the Province of Quebec where the Liberal Government resides. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Water Protection Shoal Lake Mr.

Speaker: I ha ve recogn ized the Honour able Member for The Pas. Mr. Harry Harapiak (The Pas): My question is for the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings). As the Minister knows, the Liberal Ontario Government is currently pla nning to impl ement a dr ast ic change in the development process in tha t province. Accord ing to the Ontario Premi er, the app roval process will take half the time tha t it presently takes. The provincial reviews will be done by the Municipal Affairs Department rather than the Department of the Environment, which has much more teeth.

In light of this and the fact tha t it has been determined tha t the cyanide found recently in the Shoal Lake site, as was related by the Winnipeg Water Protection Group, what efforts has the Minister done to protect Winnipeg's source of drinking water? Hon . Glen Cum mings (Minister of Environment): Mr. � Speaker, the question about wha t have we been doing with regard to Sh oal Lake, I can tell you it has consumed an enormous amount of time within my department.

As a matter of fact, my officials just within the last 48 hour s returned from meetings in Ontario regarding the future plans for the management of the Sh oal Lake basin. I am pleased to say tha t the one positive result we have had is the announcement tha t came out from Ontario regarding the inquiry process on the mine, but we are not satisfied with that announcement, Mr. Speaker. Th ere are far more points tha t we wish the Ontario Government to agree to and that we are actively pursuing , such as a wider management and control on development within th e basin.

We are continuing to actively pursue tho se goals. As I ha ve said many ti mes, as long as tho se negotiations are proceed ing at a reasonable pace, with success being imminent on different points as we go along, it has not been my position to negotiate thr ough a thir d person or in the public. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for The Pas, with a supplementary question. Mr. Harapiak: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings).

In view of the serious ness of this issue, is the Minister now willing to fund an independent thir d group to look into the operation of the safe drinking water for the City of Winnipeg? * (1410 ) Mr. Cummi ngs: Mr. Speaker, the City of Winnipeg will be fund ing indepen dent experts to pr ovi de presentations to the review process when we have esta blish ed it finally. The Department of Environment, under my direction, representing this Government, will be putting their energies toward presentations on behalf 11 61

Thursday, September 21, 1989 of this province and the taxpayers of this province who are using the water from tha t source. I believe that the taxpayers of this province have a right to expect tha t we will do the job, and not have to pay for it twice. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Member for The Pas, with his final supplementary question. Mr. Harapiak: Mr. Speaker, since the Minister refused to intervene in the resumption of the Rafferty-Alameda propo sal , and he has pre viously do wn played the concerns of the safety of the Sho al Lake water supply.

Will the Minister now agree tha t he cannot continue to naively agree tha t Winnipeg's drinking water is safe? I hope it continues to be as safe as . . . . Mr. Cummings: Mr. Speaker, the Member knows better than to assume that tha t

preamble comes anywhere near the truth. Mr. Speaker, the situa tion regarding the development in Sh oal Lake we have been actively pursuing. We have never at any point rejected all of our options, including legal action, including making sure that we are able to answer all of the concerns under federal environmental legislation, and we will not leave any stone unturned in the protection of the safety of this water. Federal Equalization Cutbacks Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, just because the matter was raised earlier in Question Period, and I have some information tha t I think will respond to the Leader of the Opposition's (Mrs. Carstai rs) comments more fully with regard to the

article tha t allegedly quotes Premier Vander Zalm as identifying me as supporting his comments in favour of cutting of equal ization transfer payments, I have been given a copy of the

article from the Globe and Mail which quotes neither Premier Vander Zalm nor myself on the matter, but is added as a little editorial extra by the writer. We have also had a telephone message from his senior staff that indicates tha t the comments attributed were not made by Premier Vander Zalm in his news conference, that later in a scrum when talking about the fact tha t the federal Government ought to get its financial hous e in order rather tha n impose new taxes on people, such as the GST, Premier Vander Zalm quoted me as agreeing with that view, which is certainly the case.

I have said tha t publicly, tha t the federal Government ought to get its financial house in order, rather tha n bring new taxes such as the 9 percent GST into place. Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. Employment Preparation Centre Funding Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): The Premier (Mr. Filmon) has knowingly yelled from his seat this morning, no, when my Leader sugge sted the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson) made the decision to slash the funds for the Employment Preparation Centres. My question to the Premier is, who made that decision the n? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): I can tell the Member for Ellice (Ms. Gray) tha t decision was not made at Treasury Board, and I can tell her tha t despite the fact tha t an ex-budget proposal had been prepared by the department on tha t particular issue, that decision was not made by the Premier, and was not made by the Treasury Bpard, and was not made by the Minister. Mr. Speaker: Order please; order ple ase. I ha ve recognized the Honourable Member for Ellice. Ms . Gray: Tha nk you, Mr. Speak er.

With a supplementary question to the Premier, perhaps he could enlight en this House and tell us who in the Tory Government is making all the decisions. Mr. Filmon: I will be happ y to tell the Mem ber for Ellice. The decision tha t was made with respect to that funding was made by the Government Ministers and by the Minister of Family Services (Mrs. Oleson) to ensure tha t the funding was provided and that none of th ose positions were cut. Tha t was the decision that was made by this Government. Mr. Speaker: Order, order. The Honourable Member for Ellice has time for a. very shor t question. Ms.

Gray: Tha nk you, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister indicate to us, now we thi nk maybe the Ministers are making the decisions, but my question to the Premier is, does he support the decisions tha t are being made by his Go vernm ent to cut funds on emplo yment preparation centres before impacts have been studied and the consequences are known? Whoever make the decision, you obviously are supporting that. Are you going to confirm tha t in the . . . . Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. The Honourable First Minister. Mr.

Filmon: I thank the Member for Ellice because our Government and our Minister of Family Services have made one decision, and tha t is to ensure tha t the funding- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , please; order, ple ase. The Honourable First Minister. Order, please. I have recognized the Honourable First Minister. The Honourable Member has already put her question and I am sure the Honourable Member would like to hear an answer to tha t question. The Honourable First Minister. Mr.

Filmon: Very sadly, we really find out what are the priorities of the Liberal Party; laugh ing at these issues, making light of all of the se issues. There is nothi ng to laugh about in terms of work for mentally ha ndicapped, th ere is noth ing to be amused about in terms of an is sue to ensure tha t tho se who are empl oy ed in 11 62

Thursday, September 21, 19 89 sh elt ered worksh ops remain employed. Th e one decision on this issue that was made by this Government and this Minister was that the funding will be provided, and that decision will be carried through, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to Orders of the Day, I would like to draw Honourable Members' attentio n to the Speaker's gallery where we have with us this afternoon Harry Graham, a former Speaker of this Legislature, and a former Member for Virden.

On behalf of all Honourable Members, I welcome you here this afternoon, sir. NON-POLITICAL STATEMENT S Mrs. Sh aron Carataira (Leader of the Off icial Opposition): Mr. Speaker, could I have leave to make a non-political statement? Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Leader have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) Mrs. Carataira: It is with great sadness that I announce to the House that one of our former Members has in fact died.

Mark Smerchanski, who represented the constituency of Burrows in this House from 19 62 to 19 66 and then served as a Member of Parliament for the constituency of Provencher from 19 68 to 19 72, has died as a result of stroke. Mark Smerchanski was born in Malonton, Manitoba in 1914 of Ukrainian parentage, a heritage which he kept dear and true to his life throughout that 75 years that he had among us.

Those who knew Mark, and I know that many on all sides of the House did indeed know Mark, know that it was his contribution to his community which marks him as a very special and former citizen of the Province of Manitoba. He was, as many of you know, a geologist and a professional engineer and the president of several mining companies. In addition, he worked tirelessly for a number of causes within his community here and throughout Canada.

Those who now live at the Holy Family Nursing Home know how hard both he .and his wife Patricia worked in putting together the money to finance the construction of the original Holy Family Nursing Home and indeed have contributed throughout their lives to its growth. He also has been active in terms of representing his heritage in such activities as the Osvita Foundation, the founding of Ukrainian bilingual programs, and he has also served his community in roles such as chairman of the St.

Boniface General Hospital. * (14 20 ) In addition, he worked as a committee member of Balmoral Hall School when his daughters attended that institution, and there are many young girls who have been trained in the science labs, labs which Mr. Smerchanski donated to the school, because he believed that they were receiving inadequate training as young scientists. Because he had three daughters, and he wanted young women to maximi ze their potential, he made sure that kind of facility was available to them.

I want to say to the House today that on behalf of the Liberal Party, and I believe to be joined by all Members of this Assembly, our deepest sympathies to his wife, Patricia; his daughters Joan, Rhonda and Patricia; their husbands, and his four grandchildren. Hon . Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speak er, I would certainly like to- Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable First Minister (Mr. Filmon) have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) Mr. Filmon: -add to the condolences expressed by f the Leader of the Opposition (Mrs. Carstairs), and I appreciate her notifying me earlier today of Mark's passing.

Mark Smerchanski was not only a personal acquaintance but a friend. We shared a number of things in common, both a Ukrainian heritage and the fact that we were both professional engineers. I met him many times on social and business occasions over the years, and political occasions, I might say, although he was of a different political Party. He was always a very warm and friendly individual who I enjoyed meeting and spending time with. As it happens, over the past decade or so, his brother John Shanski, Sr., has been a close neighbour of mine, so I have maintained a close contact with the family.

I know personally both Rhonda and Trish, and his wife Patricia, so to all of them I certainly express on behalf of my colleagues in the Conservative Caucus here in the Legislature our sincere condolences. We will, of course, be participating later this Session j In the Motions of Condolence with respect to Mark, but certainly today I want his family to know that we deeply share his loss. Mr. Bill Uruaki (Interlake): Mr. Speaker, I, too, would like to have leave to make a non-political statement- Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave? (Agreed) Mr.

Uruaki: -and join with the Leader of the Liberal Party (Mrs. Carstairs) and the Premier (Mr. Filmon) in sharing this sad moment in public life when one former public servant, in the form of a Member of Parliament, whom although I did not know very well personally I have had the distinct occasion to meet on a number of occasions as a fellow lnterlaker whose heritage is the same as Mark's. I want to pay tribute to the untireless efforts that he made to the recognition of the pioneers of the Interlake, 11 63

Thursday, September 21, 1989 both in the form of health care institutions and nursing homes, and all his work to create a better understanding amongst all citizens of this world. We share certainly a deep sense of loss on this side of the House for the loss of one Manitoban who really stood out on behalf of the Ukrainian settlers and the Ukrainian pioneers who settled the Interlake. We would like to share with all colleagues here and express our deepest sympathy and regret on his passing to his wife Pat and the family. Vichna i pamyat. Hon.

Bonnie Mitchelson (Minister of Culture, Heritage and Recreation): I wonder if I might have leave to make a non-political statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Minister have leave? (Agreed) Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, it was my pleasure today to be part of the 19 89 Manitoba Government Employees Association All Charities Campaign Kick-off luncheon. � I consider the All Charities Campaign important for a , number of reasons. Mainly it gives us an opportunity to demonstrate that the Government, that is you and I, is a community institution that cares about the well being of our neighbours.

I am sure that has motivated the executive and committee members to give so much of their time and energy to plan the 19 89 campaign and particularly on it to serve, for a second time, as campaign co-chair and to be a part of this important undertaking. To all the campaign managers I extend my best wishes as you launch your individual campaigns in your work places. Without your efforts there would be no campaign. To all the donors I say, thank you for joining forces to make this the largest employee campaign in the pro vince.

Please give this campaign your serious consideration, and to all the canvassers, best wishes as you make your important contribution. I wish to thank all Manitoba Government employees who are going to make this campaign a success. The Members of this House, when the canvassers call on you, I � encourage you seriously to consider what you have to ' share with the community . I just want to say to all of my colleagues in the Legislature who participated in the afternoon's festivities with the tacky ties and the tricycle race, I know those of us who did participate in the tricycle race clearly enjoyed it.

I know that by tomorrow morning we will be somewhat stiff and sore in places that we did not even imagine we could be. I do want to indicate that it was a team of Government Members that came first in the tricycle race, so it shows that health is alive and well. To the Member across the way from Fort Rouge (Mr. Carr), I want to thank him for being such a willing par ticipant in the afternoon's activities. To all my colleagues, I want to thank you for coming out and participating in a very successful afternoon. Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): May I have leave to make a brief non-political statement? Mr.

Speaker: Does the Honourable Member have leave? (Agreed) Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, about one hour ago I was handcuffed and arrested by two members of the Winnipeg Police Department after having run over a pedestrian at the tricycle race at the All Charities Campaign. If news of this should happens to get out, I would please ask all Members of the Legislature, colleagues and those who sit on the other side of the House to put it in its proper context. May I also congratulate the Minister of Culture (Mrs.

Mitchelson) for the leadership role she has taken in organizing this All Charities Campaign this year, to wish all members who are canvassing and those in Government who are about to give to be generous, and to assure them all that they have the support of our Party on this side of the House. Mr. Spe aker: Does the Honourable Member for Concord ia have leave to make a non-political statement? (Agreed) Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Second Opposition): I would also like to add our Party's best wishes for the campaign this year .

As a former co-chair of the campaign, I regret that I could not make the events this afternoon. I understand that they went well, and I know that the Member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Connery) did very well in the race. That does not surprise me, Mr. Speaker. The campaign, I think, is unique in a number of ways. First of all, it has the co-operation of all sectors in the public service. Secondly , it allows for multiple choice of one's charities, not only the ones designated on the list, but it allows one to use payroll deduction to choose a number of different charities.

Thirdly, it allows one to designate their own geographic area in the province. Formerly, this used to just go to all the United Way of Winnipeg, but this system allows for lots of choices both in terms of your home community and in terms of the charities of one's choice. I know the Member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Connery) may be interested to know that I was involved even in making sure the Portage United Way years ago received money when they were prohibited by the constrictions of the format before.

It is a good format, and I know that our Party will join with all people, with the leadership of the Minister of Cultural Affairs (Mrs. Mitchelson) to make it a success this year. Thank you very much. * (14 30) Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I may have leave of the House to revert back to tabling of reports and letters, indeed the letter that I have promised earlier on this. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to revert back to Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports? (Agreed) 1164

Thursday, September 21, 1989 TABLING OF REPORTS (Cont' d.) Hon . Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I table today for Members of the House a letter that I sent on August 14 to the Honourable Michael Wilson, Minister of Finance, Government of Canada. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon . Clayton Manness (Acting Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you might call the motion for Addresses for Papers; followed by the Order for Return before going into Supply. ADDRESSES FOR PAPERS Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Fort Rouge, (Mr. Carr): THAT an Address for Papers do issue praying for: (

a) copies of all written correspondence between Manitoba's Department of Finance and the Federal Department of Finance regarding the national goods and services tax in general; and (

b) copies of all written correspondence between Manitoba's Department of Finance and the Federal Department of Finance regarding the interaction between the federal goods and services tax and the provincial sales tax; and (

c) copies of all written correspondence between the Manitoba Premier and the Prime Minister regarding the national goods and services tax; and (

d) copies of all position papers prepared by the Manitoba Department of Finance and submitted to the Fede ral Department of Finance. MOTION presented . Hon . Clayton Mannes& (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speak er, as I respond to the motion, let me say the Government will accept the request to provide these papers. However, I would like to spend just a few moments covering certain aspects of the request because we may not be able to provide the information in the delineations of the classifications specifically as required, or requested, I should say, by the motion coming from the Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock).

First of all part (a), we will provide the correspondence insofar as we have the flexibility to release the correspondence and I am attempting at this point to ascertain that, although certainly one of the major items is that which I have tabled today. I might indicate to the Member that over the preceding year about 15 federal-provincial meetings were held during which Manitoba's concerns and suggestions regarding the concept of a national sales tax to replace the existing federal and provincial sales taxes were advanced and discussed. One problem within this area, Mr.

Speaker, is the address may also be requesting copi es of correspondence from the federal Government. Let me say that permission, of course, would be required from the federal Government before such correspondence could be released. With respect to part (

b) we will accept this portion too, Mr. Speaker. Part (

c) is also acceptable. However, it should be pointed out that Manitoba and other provinces made their po sition on the tax clear in the Premiers' Conference communique in August, quite quickly following the release of a technical paper by the federal Government. But nevertheless, we will review all our files to try to comply with part (c). Part (d), Mr.

Speaker, it should be noted that the province has requested additional information and assurances from the federal Government that steps will be taken to address a number of issues important to the province regarding the potential introduction of the national goods and services tax. Mr.

Speaker, let me say, with respect to some of the other papers that we have within the department, particularly as to some of our position papers, inasmuch as they also include our viewpoint as to what the other provinces' positions are, we are going to have to extricate that somewhat, because of course it is not fair that there be a public presentation as to what our viewpoint is as to the other provinces' reaction to the tax.

So we are going to have a little bit of a dilemma there in factoring out our viewpoint as to other provinces' reaction to the tax because, indeed, that is obviously their domain and not ours. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion, subject to the conditions stated by the Acting Government House Leader? (Agreed) Mr. Leonard Evans (Brandon East): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway), THAT an Address for Papers do issue praying for: (

a) a copy of all Orders-in -Council not yet released as of September 18, 19 89, but already in effect. MOTION presented. Hon. Clayton Mannes& (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, we too accept this, although I must point out to the Member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans) we have been practising a long-standing tradition, particularly in the Department of Finance, whereby parameter orders with respect to certain loan borrowings and fundings have not always been released at the time they were passed.

This is a practice that is long-standing in the Province of Manitoba and there are reasons for doing that, because if we were to give notice, for instance, that we had provided ourselves a parameter order to go into a certain market for borrowing funds, that would become public and that would be known on the financial streets, and ultimately could· increase our cost of borrowing. 116 5

Thursday, September 21, 1989 Mr. Speaker, this is one of the reasons why, from time to time, Orders-in-Council passed are held for a period of time. I accept the motion but I point out to the Member, what he is asking us to do in some respect is putting into jeopardy the minimi zation of our borrowing in public's debt-servicing costs. We will accept the order and maybe I can discuss with the Member later some of the fine points around his request, particularly in the Department of Finance. * (14 40) Mr.

Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion subject to the conditions stated by the Honourable Acting Government House Leader? The Honourable Member for Brandon East. Mr. Evans: Mr. Speaker, I would like to respond very briefly. I can understand the Minister's explanation. I just want to get an assurance that we are only talking about the financial documents that the O/Cs relate to, financial matters that the Minister related. What we � were concerned about, of course, is the question about the political staff whose O/Cs had been passed but had been held up.

Certainly that does not affect the borrowing, so we assume that all other O/Cs will be forthcoming. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion, subject to the conditions stated by the Honourable Acting Government House Leader then? (Agreed) ORDER FOR RETURN NO. 9 Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for Transcona (Mr. Kozak), TH AT an order of the House to issue for the return of the following information: (

a) the impact of the national goods and services tax on the Manitoba economy generally; and (

b) the impact of the national goods and services tax on small businesses operating in the Province of Manitoba; and (

c) the impact of the national goods and services tax on the quality of lives of seniors in the Province of Manitoba and more specifically, with regard to such things as the additional cost per annum for such things as drugs, medical services, housing, etc.; and (

d) the impact of the national goods and services tax on the agricultural sector of the Province of Manitoba; and (

e) the impact of the provincial sales tax being charged on top of, or cascading the national goods and services tax. MOTION presented . Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, let me indicate to the House that we will accept the Order for Return. Let me indicate though that Manitoba is working with other provinces in preparing joint analysis in response to the directive issued by Premiers at their conference in August. Let me also say that the bulk of the work on economic effects of sales tax reform has been directed towards analyzing the national sales tax proposal.

As you know, that was the proposal where there was going to be a unified system. So most of the work that the department had done up till basically well into May, even into June, was on the i:i.ational sales tax. Let me indicate again, Mr. Speaker-or for the first time-that I am prepared to have the federal-provincial division within the Department of Finance, the people who have the economic l!lnalysis responsibility , call a meeting.

I will call a meeting but I am prepared to have them present for all Members of the Legislature at which time they are prepared to give an overview of the analysis that has been done, and will be prepared to receive and respond to questions put by Members of the Legislature. I would undertake to do this within the next three weeks. I would do it sooner but one of our major . economists is not in Winnipeg at this point in time. With respect to (

b) the impact of the national goods and services tax on small business, this is an area of concern to the Manitoba Government. Manitoba has expressed concern regarding the edited complexity facing businesses, consumers, including small business and coping with the goods and services tax adminis tered independently of the existing provincial sales tax. Again this is an area that, hopefully, will draw some questions if it is the wish of the Members within the House to have a meeting called, as I have indicated. The (

c) part of the request, Mr. Speaker, we will certainly endeavour to provide that information. With respect to (

d) the impact of the GST on the agriculture sector of the Province of Manitoba, we are also again concerned regarding the added complexity inherent in the goods and services tax and its potential impact on Manitoba's farm economy. Again we will be prepared to share our deeper thinking with Members of the House. Mr. Speaker, as far as part (

e) the impact of the provi ncial sales tax being charged on top of, or cascading the national goods and services tax, I will respond to that in a written form although I have don.e so publicly many times. I have said that impact is $21 · mil lion should we cascade on top of an invisible federal tax. I have also, though, indicated to Members of this House on many occasions that we are doing everything in our power to ensure that we do not take additional but also do not lose-revenue with respect to the goods and services tax as proposed by the federal Government, should it come forward. Mr.

Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion subject to the conditions stated by the Honourable Acting Government House Leader? Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne ): May I just ask for clarification of one of the comments of the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness)? In response to the part (

a) of this, the Minister has offered a meeting with staff from federal-provincial relations. I think it is an excellent idea and I would appreciate such an opportunity. Is that in addition to providing the information requested here? Was it picked apart from the other provinces? 11 66

Thursday, September 21, 1989 Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, in accepting the Order for Return, naturally we will endeavour to respond to all sections of it, outside of the meeting that we will hold for Members of the House. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion, subject to conditions stated by the Honourable Acting Government House Leader (Mr. Manness)? Agreed Mr. Manneas: Mr.

Speaker, before we call the motion to go Into Committee of Supply , it is my understanding that at five o'clock we will go into Private Members' Hour, at which time Private Bills will be called. Mr. Speaker, that being the case, I move that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. Furthermore, we will be moving into two committees, Agriculture, and Highways and Transportation.

MOTION pres ented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Ma jest y with the Honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gllleshammer) in the Chair for the Department of Highways and Tran sportation; and the Ho nourable Me mber for Burrows (Mr . Chornopyski) in the Cha ir for the Department of Agriculture. * (1 450) CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY- HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION Mr. Cha irman (Harold Gilleah ammer): Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome back to the Committee of Supply.

When the Committee of Supply last sat on June 22, 19 89, this

section of Supply was considering the Estimates of the Department of Highways. The committee had been discussing Item 3.(

a) Planning and Design; 3.(aX1) Salaries and Wages. We shall now pick up where we left off. I would like to point out for the committee 's benefit that the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) will be sitting in today for the Minister of Highways (Mr. Albert Driedger). Does the Minister have any opening comments? Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): I do, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: I have recognized the Minister. A point of order, the Member for Osborne. Mr. Reg Alcock (Opposition House Leader): Are you telling us, Mr. Chairman, that the Minister of Highways (Mr.

Albert Driedger) will not be present today? Mr. Chairman: That is correct. Mr. Alcock: Mr. Chairman, then I move that this committee rise. Mr. Chairman: On the same point of ord er, the Honourable Minister. Mr. Downey: On the point of order. Mr. Chairman: The motion is out of order. You cannot make a motion when you have sought the floor on a point of order. Mr. Steve Ashton (Second Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman: On a point of order, the Honourable Member for Thompson. Mr. Ashton: We are in line-by-line discussion of the Estimates.

It is not appropriate for the Minister to be making an opening statement. That is done at the beginning of Estimates. I would suggest we deal with the line by line properly and I would suggest to you, Sir, that the Minister who is recognized, and when he was recognized he was out of order because we are dealing with line-by-line Estimates. � Mr. Chairman: I would suggest that the Minister was not making an opening statement. I just asked for some opening comments. An Honourable Member: Same thing. Mr. Chairman: On a point of order, the Minister of Northern Affairs.

An Honourable Member: I challenge the Chair on that decision. Mr. Downey: Mr. Chairman, on the point of order, we are speaking on a point of order I believe, and surely the two Opposition Parties have had enough time in here to clearly understand that a point of order has been raised and it can be discussed, not only by the two Opposition Parties, but the Minister or Member of the Government may speak to it as well. On this point of order, Mr. Chairman, I was going to speak to the line which was up before the committee and I do not see that as being out of order. The line was called.

I was going to make a comment dealing with it. It was my understanding, and I say this on this point of order, Mr. Chairman, -(inaudible)- form of agreement reached between House Leaders as to the carrying on of this committee, and if there was not, then I will yield the floor to my colleague, who is the Acting House Leader (Mr. Manness). Hon. Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): I thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, on the point of order. Mr. Chairman, there was an endeavour to reach an agreement. Given the fact that the Minister of Highways (Mr.

Albert Driedger) cannot be in attendance at this committee, there was an attempt to reach an agreement whereby an Acting Minister , who has been very well briefed in many of the activities of the Department of Highways for the sitting · of this particular committee, 11 67

Thursday, September 21, 1989 to be in position to answer specific questions with the support of course of departmental staff. I have searched the Rules of our House, Mr. Chairman, and I can see no place where it says we cannot put into the Chair an Acting Minister in the absence of the Minister . Mr. Chairman, on the point of order, I would suggest that we continue along with the business affairs of the Province of Manitoba. Mr. Ashton: To the same point of order , Mr. Chairperson. I want to make it very clear that this was raised with the Opposition House Leader.

I can indicate that I indicated on behalf of our caucus it was unacceptable to have an Acting Minister in place. The Estimates is a very serious process. We deal with each department once a year. It allows us to ask detailed questions. In the eight years I have been a Member of the Legislature I have never seen an Acting Minister put in place, and there are Members here who have been here longer.

The clear practice of this House is � that the Minister should be present for Estimates and ' it is unacceptable for the Opposition that despite our protests this Government is trying to proceed with this committee hearing. I think it is an insult to the people of Manitoba to have someone put in at the last minute. No offence to the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey), but he is not the Minister of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Albert Driedger). We want the Minister of Highways and Transportation present before we ask questions on this department.

An Honourable Member: Well, I think we want to hear what the Acting Minister says. An Honourable Member: No, we do not, we want to hear what the Minister- Mr. Chairman: I recognize the Member for Osborne. Mr. Alcock: Are you recognizing, Mr. Chairperson? I am not speaking on the point of order. The point of order has been ruled on. Do I have the floor now? Mr. Chairman: The point of order has not been ruled on. Any other comments? The Chair will take the matter under advisement. The Member for Osborne. Mr. Alcock: Are you taking it under advisement at this point? Mr.

Chairman: We will make a ruling on it at a later date. The Member for Osborne. Mr. Alcock: I move, seconded by the Member for Selkirk (Mrs. Gwen Charles), that the committee rise. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh ! Mr. Chairman: Order, please. What is the will of the committee? Some Honourable Members: Rise. 11 68 Some Honourable Members: No. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Chairman: Order, please. As a formal vote on this matter has been requested, we shall now proceed to the Chamber of the Assembly where the formal counted vote will be conducted. * (1 450) SUPPLY- AGRICULTURE Mr.

Chairman (William Chornopyski): This

section of the Committee of Supply will be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture. Let us begin with a statement from the Honourable Minist er, if he so wishes. Hon . Glen Findlay (Minister of Agriculture): Mr. Chairman, we kind of expect we are in a continuity thing. We . are carrying on just like we were here yesterday, but I will bring you up to date on some of the things that have happened with regard to crop insurance over the past two or three months.

I am sure almost everybody is aware there is an area of the province that is going to be in a claimable position, a reasonably significant claimable position, again this year. I guess if we were to project on a percentage basis, approximately a third of the province will be in a reasonably strong claimable position. The corporation sort of describes it as a line drawn from Altona to Glenboro, Birtle, and everything south and west of that line is anywhere from poor crop to severely poor, and north of the line is from average to areas of excellent crop.

The final figures are more or less in in terms of the acres covered and the liability covered and the premiums paid, and I can also give you some idea of the possible indemnity that we will face in the various programs and the kind of money that has already gone out in terms of dealing with those indemnities. Just in a general sense, I will give you some figures, and if you want some more I will give them later. In · the All-Risk Program, in terms of contracts, 14,000 contracts as opposed to 12 ,700 the year before.

In terms of liability coverage in the All-Risk Program, it is $67 1 million this year as opposed to $375 million last year. In terms of the Livestock Feed Security Program, we had 1, 983 contracts in 19 88, this year 6, 599 contracts in place. The number of animal units covered in the Livestock Feed Security Program was 12 5,000 last year, 395,500 this year, so a substantial increase there. In the total, if we take all the programs, All-Risk, Hail Spot Loss, Livestock Feed Security, and the Honey Program, the total liability covered in rural Manitoba is some $7 19 million.

So there is a significant level of coverage in crop insurance this year, as opposed to less than $400 million •

Thursday, September 21, 1989 last year. The amount of premium that will come in on those programs is some $78 million. The amount of payout that we anticipate making, I will give it to you in three program groups, and then the total. Hail Spot Loss, the expectation is $24 million will be paid out there. I think about an average payout is approximately $8 million a year, in that general area, so higher hail claims this year.

Additional hail program will probably pay out about $10 million, and the All-Risk plus Livestock Feed Security , the indemnities that are expected to be paid out, we just can have an estimate at this point in time, but the estimate is $70 million to $90 million. Last year $13 0 million was paid out. So we are below last year, but not a long ways below. You take those three categories and add them up, you are $10 0 to $12 0 million, $13 0 million of indemnity paid out. So that is where we are at in terms of expectation.

The amount of money that has already been paid out in terms of indemnities, claims that have been filed and processed, is over $30 million already gone out. Some of that is out in cheques and other parts of it are deferred by the farmer till after January 1. That is a bit of an update on crop insurance.

I am sure as you are well aware, the process of crop insurance review is continuing between the provinces and I think it is fair to say that the area where the worst crop problems are this year is also the area where there was an automatic increase in coverage level this year from 70 percent to 80 percent, because that mechanism was in place in the program and I guess there is a reasonable expectation out there that under the Livestock Feed Security Program, when the figures are finally in there will be a fair bit of a payout under that program.

As I said, we have 6,6 00 farmers enrolled and 375,000 animal units, so there is a substantial level of participation, and for that I am very pleased at this time. * (15 00) Mr. Laurie Evans (Fort Garry): I certainly appreciate the update that the Minister has given us on crop insurance. It seems like it has been quite a long time since we were in this Estimates procedure and there have been quite a few things happen over the summer. I am hoping that with your indulgence, Mr.

Chairman, and that of the Mini ster, we might touch on a few other generalities before we get down to a lot of the specifics of crop insurance. The first thing that I would like to ask the Minister is, there has been a lot of things happen which I assume-and I am fairly confident of this-have had a major impact on the bottom line of the Estimates that he provided early on. I am referring to such things as the under expenditure which was identified, something like 1 9 million, the fact that the crop insurance is going to cost considerably more than it did last year.

I assume that he would also be prepared to make some comments on exactly what he has committed the province to in terms of the negotiations under crop insurance for the next year as opposed to the current one. It would appear to me ·w ith the chang e- I believe the change is that .the province and the federal government will now be splitting the cost approximately 25-25 with the farmer still covering the premiums of about 50 percent of the cost of crop insurance in the upcoming year, if one can believe what has been in the press.

I assume that those negotiations probably are near, if not having been completed already. Frankly, Mr. Chairperson, I am a little bit concerned with what I believe is quite a change in direction that the Minister has taken in the last while, because I think he was quite adamant originally that he did not feel it was appropriate for the Government to assume a major increase in cost under crop insurance, but in actual fact he has committed the Government, as I understand it, to a 25 percent of the total cost, as opposed to just the administrative costs that are currently borne by the province.

I would hope that he could elaborate on that a little bit. * ( 1510 ) Mr. Chairperson, it is not my intent in the Estimates in Agriculture to prolong the discussion unduly, and certainly not to go into much of the same thing that was covered in the previous year, so I think there may be some advantages in not adhering so strictly to a line-by-line but perhaps cover these things in a more general fashion. Those comments on crop insurance I would hope will stimulate a response from the Minister. Mr. Findlay: Yes, we could get into a back and forth discussion on what has happened in crop insurance and other areas.

Boy, there must have been an awful bit of fun somewhere. Everybody is pouring back in. I thought everybody walked out on me a while ago. Anyway, in crop insurance we have been involved in a lot of discussion, there is no question. There has been a demand at the farm level, starting last year, for a much better program. Lack of sufficient dollar-per-acre coverage was one of the problems last year. We have made some major moves in terms of this year's- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! * (15 20) Mr. Findlay: I think we are into some problems here.

We have some changes in the program this year to make it more attractive to those people who- Mr. Chairman: Order, please. Can we have a little order? Mr. Findlay: -wanted to get into crop insurance. I mentioned earlier the 70 to 80 percent increase, the dollar-per-ton increase which allowed producers to get a higher level of protection in terms of dollar-per-acre, from roughly $60 in wheat to up to $10 0 or above. That is in place and it has stimulated a much higher level of total dollar coverage in the farm community.

We got into the discussion about who would cost share in the future, if we could improve the program. I think it is in the economic best interest of rural 116 9

Thursday, September 21, 1989 Manitoba and farmers in particular if we can have a much better risk protection mechanism out there in the way of crop insurance, both in terms of type of coverage and dollar-per-acre coverage. If we can get that through some participation on our part, then I felt it was advantageous for the economy of the province for us to contribute something towards the premium portion of that program. Mr. Chairman: Could we have some order, please? Mr. Findlay: We were requested at one point to participate to the tune of 25 percent for this year's program.

The discussion now is towards. not starting that 25 percent participation until the next crop year, and that is the general proposal that is on the table, that all provinces have tentatively agreed to, subject to conditions of adequate improvement of the total program for risk protection through the crop insurance scheme. We have a tentative agreement. We have no objectors on that issue of cost-sharing at this time, but it is subject to the whole package being laid in front of us with sufficient levels of improvements that the farm community was satisfied so that they will buy into the program.

This year, we had a much improved buy into the program from less than 50 percent of the acres covered to roughly two-thirds of the total acres covered in the province, higher level of indemnity coverage. We believe if we do not continue to improve the program to the desire of the client, they will opt out next year in the areas where they had a good crop this year. We think it is in the best interests of the province if we can make some contribution to make this happen, and every province is of the same opinion at this point in time, but it is not signed and it is not fina l.

That is the negotiation position that is in front of us. Mr. Harold Gilleshammer (Minnedosa): Mr. Chairman, in the

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 255 to consider the Estimates of the Department of Highways, a motion was made that the committee rise. A formal vote has been requested on this matter. A voice vote was taken and the motion passed. Members then requested that a formal vote be taken on this matter. Some Honourable Members: Hear, hear! Mr. Chairman: Call in the Members. The question before the Committee of Supply is that the committee rise. All those in favour of the motion will please rise. A COUNTED VOTE was taken, the result being as follows: Yeas, 27; Nays, 21. Mr.

Chairman: All those in favour of the motion, declare that the motion carried. Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. * (15 30) IN SESSION COMMITTEE REPORT . Mr. William Chornopyski (Chairman of Committees): Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has considered certain resolutions, directs me to report progress, and asks leave to sit again. I move; ·s econded by the Honourable Member for lnkster (M r. Lamoureux), that the report of the committee be received. MOTION presented and Cl!rried. Mr. Steve Ashton (Second Opposition House Leader): On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, the other

section of the committee voted to adjourn. It is quite common practice in this House to have one

section of the Committee of the Whole sitting, in this case the

section of the Committee on Agriculture, and I would ask for a ruling. I think there would certainly be willingness on the part of the Opposition to have that committee sit, presumably the Government would be interested. In this particular case, at least the Minister is here and we can deal with this. It is unlike in the other

section of the committee where we had no Minister to answer questions. * (15 40) Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. SPEAKER'S RULING Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the Honourable Member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton), I would like to advise the Honourable Member that both committees have come together and they have voted that the committee rise. Only one such motion can take place during a day. Therefore, it has been moved by the Honourable Member for Burrows (Mr. Chornopyski), seconded by the Honourable Member for lnkster (Mr.

Lamoureux), that the report of the committee be received. Agreed? Agreed and so ordered. The Honourable Acting Government House Leader, what is your intent? Order, please; order, please. Hon . Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I am wondering if I might revert back to Orders of the Day, at which time we will call certain Bills that Members of the Legislature may be prepared to debate. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to revert back to the Orders of the Day? Is there leave? (Agreed) 11 70

Thursday, September 21, 19 89 ORDERS OF THE DAY (Cont'

d) DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS BILL NO. 27-T HE FISC AL STABILIZATION FUND ACT Hon . Clayton Manness (Minister of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you might call Bill No. 27, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock). Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness), Bill No. 27, The Fiscal Stabilization Fund Act,

Loi sur le Fonds de stabilisation des recettes, standing in the name of the Honourable Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock). Stand? the Honourable Member for Selkirk. Mrs. Gwen Charles (Selkirk): May I have permission to speak on this Bill and leave it in the name of the Honourable Member for Osborne (Mr. Alcock)? Mr. Speaker: Is there leave to allow the Bill to stand in the name of the Honourable Member for Osborne? (Agreed) Mrs. Charles: Mr.

Speaker, I am so pleased to be able to speak on this Bill, having come from a former-and not likely to return- NOP riding where we have seen slush funds used so well, and I see this again as another slush fund in order to keep a Party hopefully on their behalf, but not on the people's behalf, in Government. I have seen the abuse of privilege of using money by the Government in order to prop up popularity and it is the largest sin we have. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Honourable Members wishing to carry on a private conversation can do so outside the Chamber. Order.

The Honourable Member for Selkirk has the floor. Mrs . Charles: As I was saying, I am pleased to be able to speak on this because of the past history I have experienced with slush funds. I think the lack of respect being shown by the Government today continues on in that certain Ministers, and particularly the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), sees no value in listening to the goings on of this House, would rather heckle and peckle and make- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard), on a point of order. Hon . Don ald Orchard (Min ister of Health): Mr.

Speaker , I believe it is incumbent on honourable Members when they make remarks to have their facts straight Twenty-one out of 22 Members of Government were sitting here ready to debate Estimates until the Official Opposition got sucked in by the NOP. They end up delaying the whole House and wasting the time and taxpayers' money. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Minister does not have a point of order. Disputes over the facts is not a point of order. The Honourable Member for Selkirk. Mrs. Charles: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

It is very difficult to understand at times why this Government was elected, and it is particularly difficult to understand today, when one of their front bench Ministers will not be quiet enough to listen to a speech given by an Honourable Opposition Member. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh ! Mrs . Charles: Mr. Speaker, could we call for order please? I cannot speak with this. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I am having some difficulty in hearing the Honourable Member for Selkirk . Honourable Members wishing to carry on priv ate conservations, as I have said, can do so outside the Chamber.

The Honourable Member for Selkirk. * ( 15 50) Mrs. Charles: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. There are many ways to abuse the system- Mr. Speaker , again the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard) interrupts. Could I have him called to order, please? An Honourable Member: Poor babies, poor babies. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. We refer to all Honourable Members as Honourable Members. The Honourable Member for Ellice, on a point of order. Ms. Avis Gray (Ellice): On a point of order, Mr.

Speaker, I would ask that the Opposition, particularly the Minister of Education (sic), not refer to women in this House as "poor babies." Some ·H onourable Members: Oh, oh ! Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. I have already told the Members that we refer to all Honourable Members as Honourable Members. The Honourable Member for Selkirk has the floor. Mrs. Charles: Mr. Speaker, I really do wish to speak on this Bill. We have this Government setting aside money that can be used for very many necessary projects.

I can think of so many within my own community , and I do not think that our needs are any more special than anyone else's in this House. We have no community mental health worker in the Town of Selkirk. We have no ability to help those who are under stress, and certainly in these past two days we understand the seriousness of those people who cannot cope with their goings-on in their everyday life. And it does not only occur under the stress of media. We have people not coping in all walks of life.

It is a shame when a community has to go without a community health worker, and this Government is responsible for all those in Selkirk not being able to get help that they need, in spite of our being the centre for psychiatric treatment in the Province of Manitoba, one of two of the centres. (Mr. William Chornopyski, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair) 11 71

Thursday, September 21, 1989 Yet they are quite willing to put aside money to have, just in case they need it. When will they need that money, Mr. Deputy Speaker? I suspect that it will become loose as soon as we see their polls, the ones they take, indicating some fluctuation, should that ever occur, in popularity . I say that, because I have seen the history in my riding of that type of occurrence. The NOP in the past has used popular granting systems in order to keep in Government. It was not popular in the end and they were defeated for that reason.

I suspect this Government will in the long run be held accountable for the way they hold this money and spend it. They want to tell us that this is a financial arrangement, that this will be good for the province. Well, it has not been recommended by the Auditor of the province. Of course the Auditor is well used by the Government when they agree with him, but not when they disagree with him. They decide to go their own way. How could this money be further spent?

This Government has turned down an agreement made by the previous Government in the Town of Selkirk to commit itself to funding a downtown redevelopment project. Why was that turned down? Not because it was not agreed to before they came in and that they had some obligation to put forward agreements that had been made and then signed under the Government ahead of them. No, they just decided that they did not want to fund the downtown redevelopment project in the Town of Selkirk because they did not win the seat. They had been expecting to but the people were smarter than they thought.

They broke an agreement of the former Government and I think the people of Selkirk are suffering because of that. Now there are people in the Town of Selkirk may not totally agree with the downtown redevelopment as some propose it. But we all agree that Selkirk needs help to enable them to stand in competition with the City of Winnipeg. There are not many towns within the same perimeter as the Town of Selkirk has and we are in competition with the city. Governments are not helping them in any way. We have long di stance telephone charges that industries and business es in the City of Winnipeg do not have.

We have extra shipping charges in order to compete with the City of Winnipeg.- (interjection)- Not from the City of Winnipeg out to Selkirk, you do not. The Minister of Education says, so does Winnipeg have extra shipping charges.- (interjection)- No, I know you are not from the City of Winnipeg, but I am assuming you are sitting here and talking of yourself. But we are within a half-an-hour 's drive of the city and that makes a difference. The difference is that the market, the draw of the City of Winnipeg is within reach of the residents of the Town of Selkirk, and that makes it very unique.

The City of Winnipeg has been faulted by most rural Members here of having too much power in the Province of Manitoba, being the one sole city, the only province in the country that has only one city representing almost 60 percent of the population, and that makes us a very unique province. I find that if we want to disperse the influence of the City of Winnipeg we should be helping the communities on the outreach system; and yes, you can leap over the Town of Selkirk and go to Dauphin and Flin Flon and The Pas, and I certainly support that.

But what about those areas on the fringe of Winnipeg that have to compete in market, and on the top of that they have to compete ·o n telephone exchange, on freight rates, they do not even have party lines-they do have party lines, excuse me, they do have party lines around the Town of Selkirk and cannot even have equal service of those people who may be half-an-hour away or, indeed, half-a-minute away, as many magical lines are drawn in networking and throughout our communit y.

This Government did not see fit to take any of its money to put towards eliminating party lines in the Town of Selkirk, or in any other commuter area. That was not worth thinking about. They are quite willing to have people that are under stress, have limited help capabilities of being at home.- (interjection)- Mr. Deputy Speaker, the Minister of Health again prattles on. Could you call him to order, please? I would appreciate doing my speech. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Could we please allow the speaker to say what she has to say, so we could all hear her out? The Honourable Member for Thompson. Mr.

Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Deputy Speaker, in addition to Members perhaps paying attention, I wonder if it might be possible for the Government Members to ensure that the Minister responsible for this Bill is able to directly hear the comments of the Member. I think it is standard practice for the Minister responsible to be present for debate. I think in this particular case, since the Minister responsible is also the person responsible for calling this Bill first on the Order. I think it would be appropriate. We have already had one situation where we could not get a Minister in place.

Could we at least in this case, when we are debating Bills, have the Minister of Finance here to directly listen to the Member for Selkirk? Mr. Deputy Speaker: I thank the Member for that advice, but the Member does not have a point of order. The Honourable Minister for Northern Affairs. Hon. James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs): Mr. Deputy Speak er, on a point of order, I would just like to bring to your attention the fact that it is unparliamentary for any Member to make any comments as to either the presence or absence of any Member in this Assembly, and I would think that the Member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton) should be fully aware of that. I would appreciate if he would be prepared to withdraw any comments that reflect as to whether or not any Member is in the chair. Let us remember as well, it was the plan of the Government to carry out the Estimates of both 117 2

Thursday, September 21, 1989 Agriculture, and Highways and Transportation, and/or Health as was offered to the opposition Members of this House. It is the two opposition Parties th at have made the decision tha t they want to frustrate the business of the people of Ma nitoba and act in an irresponsible manner, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) will be here to hear the comments of the- Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. Order. Mr.

Downey: -M ember opposite, but I can tell you he is doing business tha t relates directly to the interests of the province, something tha t the Opposition Members do not have on their minds. Mr. Deputy Speaker: The Honourable Member does not have a point of order. Dispute of the facts is not a point of order. The Honourable Member for Selkirk (Mrs. Charle

s) has the floor. Mrs . Charles: Mr. Deputy ·Speaker, we have many places, as I was saying, where this money could be well spent. We were speaking today of health care systems and municipal hospitals are in despera te need in the City of Winnipeg to be rebuilt so tha t tho se who have suffered, wha t to us will be unknowingable (sic) mental and physical sufferings, can at least have some rel ief through sa tis fact ory environ ment . This Government does not have sympathy for them, as it does not have sympathy for tho se under mental stress in areas such as Selkirk.

We have a great need in the Town of Selkirk for housi ng. We have some 200 to 300 people on long waiting lists for low-income housi ng. We have an abuse shelter tha t is more than full and th ese women who are coming from stress situations have nowhere to go, no housi ng, none whatsoever; but this Government has no sympathy nor respect for their needs. This Government has no respect at all.

It takes money tha t was luckily handed to them and puts it away in a little sock so the y will be able to use it for their own benefit, and I think tha t is a really sad comment. (interjection)- Yes, as the Minister of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) asked me if I really believe this, I do. I really do. I know the Minister of Northern Affairs may not understand tha t people can believe in better things, but it is the truth tha t money salted away is not money well-spent.

Money th at has been given to you thr ough trans fer payments, becau se we are not equal as Canadians across this country, should be spent on making us equal. It should not be spent to make the Government propped up and look good . Tha t is a sorry Government and a sad state of affairs. This Gover nment has no respect, no management, no sympathy . It is resting only on the situation of the times where high mining taxes and revenue from tho se taxes have been put in their coffers. Yet, do the y reinvest it in retraining our youth? No, we do not see that.

We see the Selkirk Training Plant being readjusted not so tha t we can retrain th ose who for a lifestyle sake have not been trained well. We do not see the mentally hand icapped being trained, we see budgets being cut the re. We do not see Alcoholic Foundation programs being increased. We do not see anybody in need being increased .- (interjection)- *

(1600) The Minister of Environment (Mr. Cummings) think s tha t we are only after serving our public. Well, I will tell you with the state of the Workers Compensation Board , I need tha t extra money to service th ose clients th at come in and canno t get funds out of the Government th at the y deserve. If he could look after his department, I would not need $26,0 00 a year to serve people who do not know anywhere else to go. I have had 21 people at one time wanting Workers Compensation benefits and your department is so messed up the y cannot deliver. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please; order please.

The Honourable Member for Selkirk (Mrs. Cha rles) has the floor again. Mrs . Charles: This Government seems to think the only way that they can solve problems is th rowing money at it. They seem to think tha t instead of cleaning up a department, we should just put money into it. I would like to see a department tha t could find a file. The Workers Compensation, day after day after day, cannot find the file. They cannot explain where things go to off their desks, and the y think money will. cure that. Tha t needs management and leadership.

If he thi nks tha t is expensive, then he does not know why he is there, and he should not be getting his wage. This Government, and particularly the Department of Health with a Minister th at does not seem to be able to control it, is losing the people money. We started out when this Go ver nment came into power with psychia tric services in the Town of Selkirk. Through this Gove rnment's management, as the y would like to call it, crisis management, th ey have depleted all our services and not given the people of Selkirk even a worker. They have not, time after time, faced today's problems.

They are not ready to understand what they are here to serve and who the y are here to serve. Their money is to be put away and hidd en. Sometimes it costs money to save money, and sometimes we have to be responsible for how we spend things and not ho w we save thin gs, and th ere is a large difference. This fiscal stabilization is not worthy of the people of this province. It is sho wing the total disrespect of this Government to the people, and until the y understand why the y were elected, the y do not deserve to be Government. Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines.

Hon. Harold Neufeld (Minister of Energy and Mines): Mr. Deputy Speaker, it is a pleasure for me to provide entertainment for the Member for St. Vital (Mr. Rose). I am pleased , as well, to speak on behalf of Bill No. 27, and in favour of Bill No. 27. Before we start on Bill No. 27, let us talk somewhat about some of the comments made by the Mem ber for Selkirk (Mrs. Charl es). 117 3

Thursday, September 21, 1989 The Member for Selkirk has complained- Mr. Deputy Speaker: Order, please. The Honourable Member for Transcona (Mr. Kozak) on a point of order. Mr. Richard Kozak (Transcona): The Government Members, Mr. Deputy Speaker, persist in being so raucous in disregard with the comments of their own Minister which the y find unworth listening to tha t I am finding it difficult to hear his comments. Mr. Deputy Speaker: I thank the Honourable Member for tha t advice, but the Honourable Member does not have a point of order. The Honourable Minister of Energy and Mines (Mr. Neufeld) has the floor.

Mr. Neufeld: Mr. Deputy Speaker, I suppose this is going to be ongoing all afternoon, so I will attempt to keep my remarks brief. The Member for Selkirk (Mrs. Ch arles) went on and on about the spending tha t was not being done in Selkirk. The Mem ber felt tha t because the Government did not elect a Member in tha t constituency, the Downtown Planning Program was withdrawn , the planning program that ha d been signed, presumably by a former Gove rnment, by the Premier of the province of the day who was a Member for tha t constituency.

She makes no comment tha t perhaps it was because he was a Member for that constituency that the plan indeed was approved by the former Government. So it seems to me tha t if you live by the sword, you die by the sword . The Member also thought tha t Selkirk was getting the blunt end of the stick with respect to long distance charges, with respect to shipping charges of businesses who do business in tha t area. Strangely silent she was, however, on the lower business taxes of Selkirk or the lower property taxes of Selkirk, or the lower other ch arges in Selkirk.

She only empha sizes th ose areas tha t come to her mind on what might be mo re expensive. Long distance ch arges are for th ose who phone long distances. Winnipeg is a large centre and the lines have to be drawn somewhere where long distance ch arges will prevail, and the line has been drawn. It is up to the Manitoba Telephone System, I should thi nk, to extend th ose lines and it is up to them to lobby the Manitoba Telephone System if the y wish tho se lines extended. It seems to me also, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that again and again the Opp osition of both

Partie s of the Opposition talk about more spending, it is always more spending. Ther e is never a thought of who is paying the bill, who is going to pay the taxes. The Member mentioned that, and I will quote directly, money salted away is not mone y we ll spent . Well, we ha ve a substantial deficit so we are not really salting away much money, are we? We are putting away some money for future spend ing, wise spen ding and plan ned spending and not simply thr owing money in areas where Members of the Opposition would like tha t money th rown. Let us discuss the Bill itself.

So few speakers who have spoken on this Bill to this point have add ressed the Bill itself. The Bill is to set up a fund to allow Government to spend monies tha t are earned today in the future. Long-term budgeting is not such a bad idea. You must do it, Mr. Deputy Speaker, even the Member for St. Vital (Mr. Rose) probably does it within his own family.

You have to recognize th at you have bills coming up; you have your property taxes which you cannot pay out of one month's pay cheque; you have your income tax which you probably cannot pay out of one month's pay cheque; you have a new car to buy whic h you cannot pay out of one year's savings, so you have to save your money for the spending you know you are going to have to spend in the future. Tha t is wha t the stabilization fund is all about. Much has been said, Mr. Deputy Speaker, about the fund not having any accountability. You can dip into it at will as the Member for Selkirk has indicated.

You can dip into it for election promises. I do not think she used th ose words but th ose are certainly her intent. She said tha t having spent the money you would not have to account for it. Well, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the fund is ha.rdly that. The Fiscal Stabilization Fund is a fund which we have put money aside for the future. When the money is used it has to be brought into the budge t as an expen ditur e and that certa inly is accountable, so th ere is no question of it being monies not accounted for.

Once the money is in the stabilization fund, the $200 million, it must be taken back into a budget as income and then spent thr ough the budgetary process, and that is not a slush fund as the Jobs Fund was. The Jobs Fund was a slush fund. * (16 10) We have heard a lot said about budget cuts. Mr. Deputy Speaker, there is a big difference between budget cuts and service cuts. Certainly we would like to cut our budget. Certainly we would like to cut our exp enditur es. We ha ve to. We cannot carr y on indefinitely in deficit financing, we cannot.

The individual Members cannot in their own hous es, in their own hous eholds, th ey cannot in their own businesses. The piper must be paid. If I had my way, we would put a limit on the interest tha t Government might pay in any one year as a percentage of the total budget. I would like to put that percentage at around 9 percent or 8 percent instead of the some 18 percent we have today. What could we do with tha t extra 10 percent of our budget? Ten percent of our budget is in the area of $450 million. Wha t could we do with it if we had that money?

It is in areas like tha t I think we should direct our attention instead of saying, you cut the budget so you must have cut services. For the life of me, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I cannot see how a budget cut can be equated with a program cut. The two are not the same thing. They may be related, but let him talk to us about program cuts, let him talk to us about service cuts, but do not say, you cut the budget so you must have cut the program. There is a heck of a difference. The difference is good management. We will manage our programs for less money than the former Government managed it. We must, or else 117 4

Thursday, September 21, 1989 the province is in dire straits. The country may be in dire straits already, but the province, we are going to -(interjection)- Well, the Member for Thom pson (Mr. Ashton) says with five years of Mulroney, he would agree with that. The fed eral Govern ment's inter est is approach ing 30 percent, or one-third of their annual budget is interest. My goodne ss, tha t is far, far too much, and yes, the federal Government is in dire straits. But we do not want to allow our province to get into tha t position.

Wha t we want to do is bring it back to a realistic position, bring it back from the deficit position tha t the former Government brought us into, and it is for that reason, Mr. Deputy Speaker, tha t we must start looking into the futur e and budge ting for future expenditures and recognizing tha t there is a tomorrow, and reco gni zing tha t th ere will be exp enditur es tomorrow which we may not be able to manage with the income for that particular year.

The Opposition, both sides have indicated, have told us tha t we are not spending properly because we have had $200 million from the mining compan ies up North. We have had additional payments from the federal Goverment. Well, it is just th ose kinds of money tha t should be set aside, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because th ey are not ongoing. The mining income, the mining royalty taxes will be reduced. Nickel prices are already down by one-thir d of wha t the y were and the y are going to go down some more. When nickel prices come down, profits come down, and our revenue comes down.

We should not spend the mo ney simply because we get additional monies in tha t one year. We must think of the future. We must think of next year and the year after and our childr en and our grandch ildren. For tha t reason we must bring our deficit down to the position wher e we do not spend monies for interest payments in excess of Q percent or 9 percent. Mr. Deputy Speaker, we have talked in the past about multiyear budgeting and it seems to me tha t the Fiscal Stabilization Fund is a first step toward multiyear budgeting. It is a reasoned step to take us to tha t position. It is not yet in law.

We cannot do it, but this is the reason for this particular Bill, and it was my hope tha t we will get this Bill passed, and we will be in a position to manage the affairs of the province into the future, into the next century, for our childr en, for our grandchildr en. (Mr. Speaker in the Chair) I might say I do not think th ere is anything sacred about 365 days, and tha t is the term of our budget today. There is nothing sacred about that. We should attempt to look further ahead than 365 days. There has been many attacks upon the Gover nment from both opposition Parties th at we do not plan far enoug h ahead .

Well, this is an attempt to plan further ahead . I cannot see how the Opposition can take exception to the Bill. We have been told tha t we do not spend enough money in the North. It is true also that when the mining monies were not coming in, when the mining taxes were not as high as the y are today, monies were st ill spent in the North. More money was spent in the North. The Manitoba Mineral Resources is spending a lot of money to develop and explore for new ore deposits. We do not want to throw the mo ney at a problem and then have no money left. We have to spend it wisely and I do think tha t we do.

We have been told about the potential abuse of the fund. I cannot understand how ther e may be an abuse. We must bring the mon ies into the budget of the year in which we wish to spend it. We can only do that at budget time. The budget is reviewed by the opposition Parties and the budget is voted on by opposition Parties and is examined in great detail by opposition Parties. If there is a way to abuse the system, perhaps we still have not found it. The Member for Church ill (Mr. Cowan) wonders if we are still looking.

We are not looking for abuses but we are looking to make certain tha t when the day comes, a long time in the future wher e other Parties are in power, th at th ere are no abuses. Tha t will not come as soon as you think. I think the Member for St. Vital (Mr. Rose) is going to ha ve to buy a lot of tha t greasy stuff for his hair before tha t time comes. An Honourable Member: Is that Brylcreem? Mr. Neufeld: No, it is not Brylcreem, it is tha t stuff tha t keeps your hair looking like Maurice Richa rd's. I think tha t we must, in Gove rnment, recognize th at the future will not always be as bright as it is today.

Ther e will not be the mon ies from Ottawa; th ere will not be the mining monies, so we must prepare for tha t day. When there is a lot of money around, when th ere is a lot of money coming in, the Opposition thi nks th at we should spend it all because the y can only see the money coming in. I have likened in the past, in my other life, the turning of money to a bicycle whe el. When the wheel is turning fast you cannot see ho w many spokes are missing.

It is only when the bicycle wheel slows down tha t you recognize you can see tha t th ere are very few spokes on the wheel and th at is the same with- An Honourable Member: It is easy for us to see all the spokes you are missing, tha t is for sure. Mr. Neufeld: You have improved a lot since the last time I talked to you privately, sir. An Honourable Member: Oh, way to go, Harold. Mr. Neufeld: The lights are on but nobody is home, right? You have a four-storey elevator in a six-story building, buddy. I was told, Mr. Speake r, th at the Mem ber for Thomp son (Mr. Ashton) asked wha t we were debating.

I was told tha t I was part of the entertainment for this afternoon. An Honourable Member: Comic relief. Mr. Neufeld: We must remember also th at th ere are only two ways in which Government or business or individuals can provide for the future, and that is either make more than th ey spend or spend less than th ey 11 75

Thursday, September 21, 1989 make, and there is a heck of a di fference. The Opposition is in a spending mode. We are supposed to th row money at every problem we see or every problem th ey see and that is not good management. Good management is to try to identify the solutions to the problems and then spend with respect to tho se solutions, not th row money until the problem is hid den with dolla rs and then hope tha t it goes away. The problem will not go away simply because we th row money at it. Mr. Manness: Good management in Manitoba is a PC Government. Mr. Neufeld: Good management-I wish I had said that.

An Honourable Member: Say it anyway, say it aga in. Mr. Neufeld: The Finance Minister (Mr. Manness) says good Government is a Tory Government. * (16 20) I think we mus t edu cate ours el ves and I think Governments of all Parties are guilty of . . . No modern Government is prepared to live within its means, it seems. We are the first Gover nment, I think, tha t has attempted to in recent years and we will attempt agai n. But tha t does not mean, simply because we have extra monies, we should th row it at a problem. We will spend wisely. The Member for lnkster (Mr. Lamoureux) again refers to this as a slush fund.

He obviously was not here when we discussed what a slush fund was. A slush fund is one for which ther e is no accountability. I will repeat that, and it bears repea ting. Ther e is no accountability for a slush fund. Does the Jobs Fund come to mind? There is no accountability. The Stabil izat ion Fund is a fund set in law. (interjection)- There is nothing wrong with surplus budgets. We are debating whether or not we should put into law the setting up of a stabilization fund. (interjection)- No, it is not a slush fund. It is accountable and a slush fund is not accountable.

This fund is totally and fully accountable and I guess, tha t is the end of the- · An Honourable Member: Wha t would he understand about budgets? Mr. Neufeld: The answer to both Opposition Parties is tax. How much more can we tax? Who are we going to tax? They support tax. You do not support more tax.- (interjection)- Let it be said, let it be written, tha t the Liberals do not support an increase in tax. They strangely voted against a decrease. We are one of the highest taxed provinces now in the country. As individuals, I believe we are probably the hig hest; corporately we are probably the second hig hest.

How much more can we tax? How do we encourage corpora tions to come in and inv est in Manitoba if we are going to tax too much? How do we do that? I am at a loss. Perhaps the Opposition can enlighten us? -(interjection)- Perhaps we should turn the Member for St. Vital's (Mr. Rose) mike on so everyone can hear him. Mr. Speaker, let me say again tha t the Stabilization Fund is a management tool to arrange our affairs well · into the future.

The hope is that we can bring our deficit down, and the last time I mentioned bringing our deficit down to the point where interest payments shall not exceed 8 percent or 9 percent of our total budget, I got a nod of agreement from the Member for St. Norbert (Mr. Angus). I am glad to hear that, so it is a direction we are taking. With tha t in mind, I am certain tha t the Member for St. Norbert and his Party will vote with the Government to establish this Stabilization Fund.

Because it is through this fund and through the long term management that this province will get to the position it needs to be in, and tha t is a lower deficit and tha t way encourage more investment, encourage investors, and not Government, to provide jobs for our citizens. It will be the day tha t we will all feel proud that we have been a party to this kind of legislation. Mr. Speaker, with tha t I will sit down and allow the Opposition Members to speak on this Bill, because I know tha t the Member for St. Norbert (Mr.

Angus) is definitely now in complete agreement with Bill 27 and ho pefully he will get his caucus to vote with the Government on this Bill. Mr. John Angus (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, I indeed appreciate the opportunity to be able to discuss with some intelligence this Bill, because I think tha t we have an issue on the floor where we can clearly identify philo sophical differences in ho w to proceed in relation to governing.

Quite frankly, I believe tha t this whole process should be for sharing the views tha t you have as to ho w things are operating, ho w things are going, and how the Government, in this particular case, is doing thi ngs. So I appreciate the opportunity to add some comments. I have broken it down into th ree specific sections, Mr. Speaker. I am afraid I cannot support the Bill. I cannot support the Bill in its present fo rm.

While I recognize that there is some disappointment on the Government's side to the position tha t I am taking and I hope I will be able to persuade them that this Bill needs some major amendments and/or some specific chan ges in order to make it workable. The Honourable Minister of Mines and En ergy (Mr. Neufeld) has referred to his former life in which it is well known he was a chartered accountant, and perhaps still is. I think he was a partner in a major accounting firm. Mr.

Speaker, surely then as an accountant, if he was to give investment advice to an individual in a business or in a hous ehold as he did to this House, he would suggest tha t reducing the mortgage payments as much as possible is perhaps the finest and best tha t you can make. It shows the biggest re turn and, indeed, in his remarks he has suggested that by re ducing the total debt load of the province which is, by anybody's standard , an enviable goal ho w you achi eve tha t reduction in debt load is the matter of crux.

I think if I had been in the position of arguing to and in Cabi net I wo uld ha ve sugge sted , proposed , 11 76

Thursday, September 21, 1989 encouraged tha t the deficit be reduced, tha t you pay down and balance the budget and the Minister of Finance (Mr. Manness) had the opportunity to do something tha t ha s been many, many, many years since Douglas Campbell of the Liberal Party, back in the early '50s-to balance a budget in the Province of Manitoba. You did not take that. It would not have taken all of tha t $200 million. So I believe, Mr. Speaker, tha t the Minister for Hydro (Mr.

Neufeld) could have had an opportunity to use his management skills and his good accounting advice to ensure that we did not thr ow additional money away on high interest payments and on tho se high mortgage payments by hoa rding the money into whatever type of a trust fund you want to ha ve, or whatever you want to call it. The facts are tha t you took a lump of money tha t you could have used to reduce the debt load, to pay down the debt load, and you stored it away. So you are paying money on top of money.

You are in fact out in the marketplace borrowing money-whether it is from Manitobans or from offshore money-a nd you are paying interest rates, while at the same time you are, I suspect, gathering a lesser amount of interest by ho arding this money in some form of a trust fund. It simply does not make sense to me, Mr. Speaker, so for tha t fundamental reason I find it difficult to support this Bill. Let me go on in terms of what the Member has also sugge sted is difficulty in the provision of services, and wha t he referred to as spend, spend, spend and th row money at the problems.

Cer tainly among all of the Mem bers we all recognize-a nd I particularly am conscious of the amount of tax dolla rs tha t individuals have to pay and I am also conscious of the fact tha t th ey do not want more taxes, tha t the only solution is not- and perhaps not even the best solution-to throw money at a problem. That is not wha t I am striving for, Mr. Speaker, but I have a great deal of difficulty justifying to my constituents, justifying to the people who have elected me tha t we do not have the money for very needed soc ial programs wher e the y are ident ified by the Ministeries, by the Department.

When we get reports across our desk tha t-f rom the Go ve rnment, Go ve rnment initia ted reports suggest that the bars in a jail at Head ingley can be cut with a serrated butter knife. On one hand , the Government says we do not have any money to fix it up, it is a long-range project, and on the other hand th ey have establis hed a trust fund. Tha t does not make sense to me, Mr. Speak er.

It is Go vern ment's responsibility to add ress the problems tha t th ey can with in the money tha t they have raised and to tax people so that th ey can hoard money is not, in my mind, a responsible position to take. * (16 30) So we see tha t however the y have decided to do it, th ere were illusions today tha t an invisible man with the axe was running around slash ing various programs, and then after the effect of th ose programs being cut was recognized, the money was being reinstated . It is too bad tha t you have to respond in tha t fash ion.

It is much better not to have made the mistake in the first place, but to hoard money while these programs are being cut and while people are being displaced and stress levels in all of th ese agencies and organizations are being driven up does not make sense to me, not fiscally, or not responsibly. I believe, Mr. Speaker, it is not even penny-wise. It is certainly pound-foolish , and I just do not support the hoard ing of money with one hand while the other hand is suggesting that we have not enough money to do the things that we want to do, to even fulfil! your agenda the way you want to fulfil! it. Mr.

Speaker, the one thing tha t concerns me tha t the former accountant suggested was the provision tha t in order to do multiyear budgeting, you have to have a trust fund or a proviso, a lump of money. Tha t is fundamentally wrong. It is fundamentally wrong. You do not have to have a whole amount of money stashed up in the bank in any, whatever you want to call it, anywhere, in order to be able to do multiyear planning, multiyear projections and multiyear budgeting. So ho w he as a professional and how he as a Cabinet Minister can stand and suggest tha t is a requirement is mind boggling. So I believe, Mr.

Speaker, tha t you plan for the spending based on the money you anticipate getting. Nothing prevents multiyear budgeting whether you have the money or do not have the money. There has been a lot suggested about the controls that are or are not and the budgeting process on an annual basis. I doubt very much whether the Government will be able to put this lump of money away and not touch it until next year at budget time. Tha t simply does not make sense to me and I do not see th ose types of controls.

If th ose controls were in this proposed Act, if the y specifically said this is going into a sinking fund, not to be touched until next year's approval through the legislative process, again I might be prepared to look at it a little differently. Finally, Mr. Speaker, to link the hoard ing of this money to, and sugge st tha t if I am against this Bill, I am against the propo sed tax cuts to Ma nitoba taxpa yers, is absolutely ludicrous, because nothing could be further from the truth.

I am for fiscal responsibility, a position of fiscal responsibility tha t will encourage tax reductions to Manitobans, tax reductions to the businesses of the province, but I am not in favour of doing it by ho arding the mo ney and I jus t do not. I fundamental ly, phi losophically do not believe tha t is the way the Government should be acting with this lump sum of money.

So I am going to vote against the Government on this Bill, and if the Government feels compelled to sugge st tha t is a matter of confidence in their ability to manage, then so be it, and if the y decide to go to the polls and say to the general public, we have hoarded $200 million because we have cut back on hea lth, because we have cut back on social services, because we have not enough money, well, Mr . Speaker, I am prepared to fight tha t argument on the streets because that is wha t we are here for. We are here to represent the way we would manage the province. I do not think 117 7

Thursday, September 21, 1989 tha t is a very good way to manage it, so it is with regret tha t I cannot support the position that is being taken by the Cabinet and by the Government. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hon . Harry Enns (Minister of Natural Resources): Mr. Speaker, it is a privilege for me to be able to contribute to the debate on second reading on Bill No. 27. It is a Bill tha t probably in my judgement is one of the most important Bills tha t this Assembly will face during this Session.

It is a Bill that encompasses probably the most important thing tha t all Governments in this country should be dealing with and th at is fiscal responsibility. Mr. Speaker, fiscal responsibility is what this Bill is all about. Our Rules call fo

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-34
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 34.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	248edbbfa798490d9d6a2043e1e7bb6ef89640b0

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