LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, 3 April, 1985. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Welding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, I believe the Minister of Education has a statement. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to announce a series of new initiatives today which will build upon this government's efforts to prevent child abuse and to improve its detection. The role of teachers is crucial in the detection and reporting of suspected cases of child abuse because it is the teacher who sees the child every day, who is sensitive to changes in his or her behaviour and who, now, Mr. Speaker, is receiving the training, support and legal protection needed to take an active role in combating this serious social problem. Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased that our schools have improved their capacity to detect and report suspected cases of child abuse. Last year, about 81 percent of the more than 700 suspected cases were against school age children and were reported through our schools. That means that many children who required help were able to receive it. Because of actions taken by teachers, our school system has begun to respond in a very active way.

As a result of the child abuse reporting guidelines which were announced and distributed last April, educators are working very closely with representatives from the Departments of the Attorney-General, Health and Community Services in a co-ordinated approach to this problem. Mr. Speaker, my department has formed a network of educators from every school division in the province to provide on-going training activities for teachers on this issue. We have sponsored over 60 inform-ation sessions for more than 2,000 teachers.

The new initiatives I am announcing today will improve further the awareness and ability of Manitoba's educators to respond to the issue of physical, sexual and emotional abuse of children. These initiatives include: distribution of a draft policy on child abuse for school divisions to use as a model in the development of ttleir own procedural policies for reporting suspected cases. Mr. Speaker, a number of school divisions have already recognized the importance of responding to the issue in their areas by adopting their own official policies on child abuse to guide 575 teachers.

These policies are necessary to ensure that the responsibilities and roles and procedures for local school staff and administrators are clearly understood. I am asking all divisions to use my department's draft policy statement to develop their own policies if they . have none or, if appropriate, to modify their existing policies. I have asked them to do so by the fall. Provision of a $20,000 grant to the Actor's Showcase of Winnipeg for presentation to schools throughout the province of their preventative child abuse play, "Feeling yes, feeling no.

" This play has proven extremely effective in alerting children to the issue of sexual abuse. lt helps them protect themselves against such abuse and it tells them where and how to get help if they need it. My department is undertaking a co-operataive effort with the Manitoba Home and School Parent Teacher Federation to educate parents on their role in dealing with the issue of child abuse. A kit is being developed for parents. The Home and School Federation will conduct courses for parents at the local school level. Mr. Speaker, our children are our most previous resource.

Their protection from harm is a major concem to us all and since most cases of child abuse are against school-aged children and are reported through the schools, it's vitally important that educators be prepared to respond quickly and knowledgeably to the issue of child abuse. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Speak er. I acknowledge and I thank the Minister for her statement today. I am thankful that she has given us a first-year review as to how the new program in the schools is doing.

I, too, am glad to see that she is bringing forward some type of model to offer to educators within the school room, some indication where their responsibilities lie. I know that there have been many instances where some teachers, In particular, weren't quite certain as to how they were to react under certain circumstances and situations. Mr. Speaker, I am also happy to see where the Minister in her statement is including parents. Naturally, the school is just another form of society which includes all aspects of life around us, and I am glad to see that the parents are also being included in this program.

Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of motion . . . Introduction of Bills ... ORAL QUESTIONS Regional Child Care Agencies - replacing Children's Aid Society MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is for the Honourable Minister of Community Services

Wedneed8y, 3 April, 1115 and Corrections. lt falls upon her announc ement of the new opening of the Regional Child Care Agencies in Winnipeg. I wonder if the Min ister could indicate if this means that the former Chil dr en 's Aid Society of Winnipeg is now comple tely dismantled. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Servi ces. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the Interim Board which was carrying respons ibility for the CAS of Winnipeg will continue in its official legal capacity till the end of June, but in fact all the responsibilities for childr en have been transferred to the other agencies.

There are some issues which need to be tidied up, so the Interim Board will remain officially there to conclude all of that business. MR. G. FILMON: Does that indic ate then that all the employees of the former CAS of Winnipeg have now been transferred to the new regional agencies? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I take the detail on notice, but my information to date is that redeployment has been completed. There remain the child care workers who were not, strictly speaking, emplo yees of the CAS which I will have to look into in greater detail.

But all the main workers that worked under CAS Winni peg have been transferred to the other agencies. MR. G. FILMON: I wonder if the Min ister can indicate whether the new six agencies replacing the former two CAS of Winnipeg and eastern Manitoba have a greater staff complement than the former six agencies did separately. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, just to clarify, there were in effect three groupings. There was the CAS Wi nnipeg and CAS Eastern. There was also CAS Western di rectly operated by the department. The total staffing is simi lar.

There were some vacancies that had developed and were deli berately held in order to give the new agencies some leeway in hiring new people. The precise numb ers, though, will evolve within the budgets that the agencies have been given - I say I can get the more detailed information about the status as of today, but in future the total staffing complement will depend on how those agencies spend their budgets. MR. G.

FILMON: I wonder if the Mi nister could indicate what pr ovisions are in place to ensure that in cases of crisis intervention for either health care or law enforcement or social services that after hours the proper social work contact and the pr oper file information is available for these emergency services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, in the pr ocess of the transition there has been an Imple mentation working group that has had many subcommittees dealing with just such issues.

They've had wide participation and made recom mend ations which function should be comp letely decentralized to the agency level and which should have a degree of co-ordination, either at the city level or in the provincial department. 576 Again, it's my understanding that the crisis work is co-ordina ted, but I'd like to take it as notice and bring back a progress report on which functions have been agreed on to date, and which are still being examined. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Speaker, in the ins tance where a ward of the Children's Aid Society is transferred from a foster home in one geographic area to a foster home in another geograp hic area, does that . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: . . . mean that the ward will then automatically have to have a new social worker and be transferred into the new agency' s regional area? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I am happy to clarify that pr ocess.

The ward would belong, in a sense, or be the main responsibility of the region where they first came Into contact with the agen cy. Becaus e the distribution of foster homes doesn't completely jibe with the distribution of need, the process is, although there is a central licensing function at the pr ovincial level of all foster homes, in fact the procedure that would be followed by a regional board would be to contact the boards of the neighbouring agencies and see if each one will have their foster home lists, the ones that are currently occupied and the ones that are available.

There will be quite a lot of lend leases that were of this resource across the boundary, but the prime responsibility for the youngster for the case will rest with the region where the youngster and presumably their home setting was. MR. G. FILMON: I wonder if the Minister could indicate if concern has been expressed by people working with this system that it's very cumbersome and bureaucratic and may, in fact, have adverse effects on crisi s intervention and emergency services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, the criteria that we have been following all along in working through the system is that from the provincial level would come clear legislation and guidelines, clear rules for resource allocation and a clear set of standards and method of monitoring. At the local level, the criteria we've been following is who is best invo lved in making a decision about a particular youngster.

How can, for example, In the case of Native youngsters, we ensure that there is some involvement of people sensitive to the Native culture and how, if there is any disagreement as to whether either side is working in good faith or finding a resolution in a reasonable time frame, either party can refer the case to the Director of Child Welfare, who will appoint an arbitrator to resolve the situation quick ly.

We feel the best way to overcome bureaucratic red tape is to have these very clear guidelines and a clear process close to the delivery of service level for resolving the issue again with a quick, clear appeal process should there be disagreement. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, can the Min ister indi cate whether or not such a pr ocess and such a cumb ersome

WednHCiay, 3 April, 1915 system was necessary before when there was one Children's Aid Society for Winnipeg? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The question tends to be argumentative. Will the honourable member wish to rephrase his question? Fort Garry Women's Resource Centre - review of funding MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Community Services.

On March 8th, she responded to my letter of support for the Fort Garry Women's Resource Centre and indicated she was seeking Treasury Board approval to immediately grant the Fort Garry Women's Resource Centre $25,000 and develop a plan for funding for 1985-86. My question to the Minister is did Treasury Board and Cabinet approve funding for the Fort Garry Women's Resource Centre? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, the plight of the Resource Centre has certainly been under active review by the government, but the problem is one that is related to a much broader problem, and that has been the abrupt discontinuation by the Federal Government of a great many social programs in the province with no notice or ensuring that there is planning for some kind of alternate plan. Mr. Speaker, what we are reviewing is how best to deal with that situation, acknowledging the need of the groups but also the fiscal capacity of the province.

We believe that our first line of action must be to call the Federal Government to account and hold it accountable, either to continue the programs it's been funding or to explain why it is not continuing the funding. Schwartz, Betty settlement re wrongful dismissal MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Community Services.

Is she now in a position to inform the House as to the costs of the settlement with Batty Schwartz, the former Executive Director of the Children's Aid Society, and to be able to inform the public of Manitoba as to how much of the taxpayers' money is going to be spent to compensate for the wrongful actions of this government? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, the answer to the first question is no. The answer to the second question is I disagree with the assumption in the question. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, a government doesn't pay out over $100,000 because it's not at fault In some way. 577 Perimeter Highway Overpass - review of design by engineers MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Minister of Highways and Transportation. The day before yesterday a Gulf Oil tanker truck overturned while turning off the Perimeter Highway at Pembina Highway, fortunately with no loss of life. Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that this overpass was, I believe, the first overpass constructed in the Province of.

Manitoba and has been criticized because of the tight turns on the overpass and the design of the overpass, would the Minister undertake to review the accident record on that overpass and have the design reviewed by traffic engineers either inside or outside the government in order to determine if some further safety measures should be taken to protect the public while travelling on that overpass, and particularly large truckers? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Highways. HON. J. PLOHMAN: Mr.

Speaker, soon the Handling and Transportation of Dangerous Goods Regulations that the Federal Government has announced recently will be coming into effect, I believe next year and they will designate certain routes, and that is one area that will be covered. However, to answer specifically the question that was asked by the member, I can say that we will look at the situation in terms of the number of accidents.· Of course, the member will have an opportunity to discuss that further with me during the Estimates process. Manitoba health care system - adequate abortion facilities MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the Minister of Health, and ask him whether the present Manitoba health system can accommodate those women in Manitoba who require an abortion? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I think on many occasions I have announced the policy of our government and the department on the question of abortion.

First of all, we have started a counselling service to try to prevent as many unwanted pregnancies as possible so there won't be a need for the abortion. · Then, because of the fact that some people had to go to the States to get a legal abortion where they could have received a legal abortion, this was rectified in improving facilities and, I believe, there are close to 30 percent more abortions this year than there were last year done here, not on residents of Manitoba, but done in Manitoba instead of going to the States. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I am not clear on what the Minister said. it sounded like he indicated there was a 30 percent Increase in relation to people leaving for the United States. Could he clarify then and indicate, in terms of numbers, what the difference in capacity of the present system is this year versus last year, and could he also indicate what his ultimate goal is in terms of capacity?

w.c:tnHday, 3 April, 1115 What is he aiming for? What level , in terms of numbers, is he attempting to reach? HON. L. DESJARDINS: What I am aiming for, what I would like to see is be successful with our first program and we would have no need for abortions at all, that's what I'm aiming for. Now if there has to be an abortion, and if it's according to the Criminal Code, it is legal. I feel that we have to provide these facilities so the people would not have to resort to methods that are certainly not to be recommended, or to have to go to the United States, and this is what we are doing.

As I say, there are close to 500 more abortions this year than there were last year. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, could the Mini ster also ind icate what percentage of those women applying are being turned down? HON. L. DESJARDINS: There isn't one single one that was turned down that came to my attention. You are talking about a legal therapeutic abortion comm ittee, through the comm ittee; I have never heard of one being turned down.

If the time has been too long, I mean that it's a little too late, and the medical profession here has pretty well set 12 weeks as the date, and it might be that it's too late and it's not safe. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before recog nizing the next mem ber, may I di rect the attention of members to the galler y. We have 25 students of Grades 9 and 10 standing of Quebec exchange students. They are un der the di rection of Mr. Locomy and Miss Adams. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Cont'd Livestock Inspection - Drought areas MR.

SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Minis ter of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was very pleased to be in Angusville to meet with farmers and municipal leaders in the western part of the province, Mr. Speaker. I regret that the Member for Arthur who raised the question last week is not in and I am responding to it. He raised with my colleague, the Minis ter of Housing, the Acting Min ister, a question whether or not we are hiring livestock inspectors to count livestock herds in the drought area where drought funds were provided last sum mer. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to respond to that question and indic ate, no, we are not, there are no new inspectors hired. The two livestock technicians who we have in the depar tment, who worked joi ntly with our department, and the Manitoba Beef Commission are doing the inspections in the field. The second question that he raised is whether or not we could provide numb ers of people who are not 578 keeping sufficient numb ers of cows as of April 1st; and also how many people have not met the requirement and if they have not,met that requirement, will they be forced to pay that drought money back this spring. Mr.

Speaker, I am advised that the random inspections have been carried on, on approximately 12 percent of the herds, and approxima tely half-a-dozen have been found not to be keeping herds sufficient to the amounts that were required; and yes, they will be required to pay the difference because the feder al-provincial agreement stipu lates that it is a herd retention agreement. However, there is consideration given that if the losses are due to bankruptcies and foreclosures or losses are as a result of nature, that in fact consideration would be given to looking at those kinds of circumstances. MR.

SPEAKER: May I remind all members that they should not comment on the presence or absence of other members of the Chamb er. School of Psychiatric Nursing, Portage Closure of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr . Speaker. My question is for the Min ister of Community Services. The Min ister of Community Services has ind icated that the closing of the Psychiatric School of Nursing in Portage will save between $1 00,000 and $1 25,000 annual ly.

My question to the Min ister, is she including in that alleged saving figure the staff saving as noted in Page 11 of her recent March Imp act Study indi cating a $99,000 saving from th ree staff positions? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I think questions of that detail should be dealt with in Estimates, but I can say in general the study that the member opposite keeps referring to was one of th ree prelimi naries done by each of the ins titutions and then there was a combination analysis done overall. I think the figures I gave earlier still stand. MR. D.

ORCHARD: Mr. Speaker, I am quoting from the last report referred to by the Mi n ister , th e compilation of the thr ee reports. My question to the Min ister is, that if she cannot confirm today that part of the savings are from staff layoffs which she has said cannot happen and which the recently negotiated contract with the MGEA disallows, would the Min ister table her information by which she can prove her alleged $1 00,000 to $1 25,000 saving and disprove what her last report ind icates will only be a $24,000 saving by the closing of the school at Portage? HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, the saving is the net saving to the system. There will not be layoffs. People who will not be redeployed to the other two schools will in fact be absorbed in the Development Centre where we d r.ave a degree of attrition going on all the time and therefore the capacity to re-employ. Again,

1 would be more than happy to answer the detailed questions at the time of Estimates. MA. D. ORCHARD: Then as a final supple men tary, is the Minister now saying that the saving is only $24,000 since those staff will be rede ployed at the Centre? Imported elk from State of Missouri - permit for, livestock disease bluetongue MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DAIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question Is to the Mi nister of Natural Resources. Apparently ove r 50 elk have been imp orted into Manitoba during the past winter from the State of Miss ouri.

Can the Min iste r ind icate whether his department issued a permit for the importing of these animals? Can he also indicate whether over 30 of these animals have been confirmed to have the dreaded livestock disease called bluetongue? MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Spe aker, it is correct that elk have been brought into Manitoba from the U.S. I believe that's pursuant to federal regulation, because it is inter provincial migration of live animals.

I am not sure whether it is our responsibility to issue or not to issue permits in that regard. lt is also correct that there is a health problem with respect to that particu lar herd and the Federal Gove rnment veterinarian has seized upon that problem and has dealt with it effectively, as far as I'm aware. MA. A. DAIEDGER: To the same Minister, Mr. Speaker, can the Minister indicate why his department would not issue a permit to have the elk caught in Manitoba as it has been done in the past instead of taking the chance and importing elk from out-of-country to eliminate the possibility of disease? HON. S.

USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure whether changing policy will elimi nate the potential for disease. I will say that that's a reasonable question, however, which I have raised myself with my own staff, and we will be looking at that as a matter of policy discussions. MR. A. DRIEDGER: To the same Minister, can the Mini ster ind icate what has happened to or what will be happe ning to thes e animals that have been confirmed to have contacted the disease of bluetongue? HON. S. USKIW: lt's my understanding, Mr.

Speaker, that there will be salvage value as a result of the disposal of meat and fur, if you like, or hides. The Government of Canada of course is in charge of that and we are not certain what that is going to amount to. But apparently the meat will be consumed or offe red to people who are feeding other animals; and it is, in other words, an ani mal feed byproduct. MA. A. DAIEDGER: A final question to the same Minister.

Can the Minister indicate because of the 579 tremendous or large exp ense that has been involved in importing these anim als, whether there is a compensation that could be looked forward to by the individual who brought them in? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MA. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, it's my understanding that the Government of Canada is responsible for compensation and I believe has agreed to compensate. That is my information based on the fact that it is bluetongue that they have diagnosed the disease as being.

Firehalls - lnwood and Fraserwood - telephone hookup MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, yesterday evening the Member for Lakeside rose in the House and expr essed a concern about telephone service to fire halls at lnwood and Frase rwood. He indicated, Mr. Speaker , that the telephone system had denied hookup to these two fire halls. I indicated that at my first opportunity I would answer his concerns in the House and I'm doing that, Mr. Speaker . The assertions that the Member for Lakeside makes are false.

The Manitoba Te lephone System has not refused to provide telephone hookup to those fire halls. What it has refused to do is interconnect another system to the telephone lines because that is in violation of the act that was the act when the honourable member was Minister. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MA. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. I am informed that particular matter was raised during a time when the House was in committee. lt seems it might be an abuse of question period for that time to be used for answering matters raised during the committee.

Bluetongue disease - effect on exportation of livestock MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River . MR. D. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that we may have a case of bluetongue involved in the Province of Manitoba, I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture, and ask the Minister what assurance he can give to the livestock producers of Manitoba that this isolated incident of bluetongue will not have any detrim ental effect on the exp ortation of livestock from Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourab le Min ister of Agriculture.

.... ..... , , ...., ,. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I'm given to understand that the flea outbreak is as a result of, as I unde rstand it, a sand fly which was not detected at the border through the inspections that are conducted by the U.S. and Canadian authorities of the Federal Government, an inspection team. When those animals were inspected that di sease was not detect ed. lt was subsequently detected on a further check on site after those animals came on site.

I'm not aware, and I will take the specifics as notice, whether or not there is great concern as to the contagiousness, as the member suggests, or if he's suggesting, of that disease. But, I understand, as the Minister of Natural Resources has pointed out, the federal veterinarian is on site, and I'm given to unde rstand that the situation is in hand. MR. D. GOURLAY: I thank the Minister for his answer, but I would ask him a further question relative to that same problem. Has the Minister had any direct contact with officials from the Fe dera l Department of Agriculture, the Health of Animals Branch? HON. B.

URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I have not directly, but 1 will check with my officials at the vet lab and see what consultations and discussions they have had. But, really, the whole question of health of animals coming across the border is of the jurisdiction of the Federal Government, and our people would play a role if they are asked, in terms of the use of the facilities through our vet lab, and we certainly would be co-operating in that ende avour. Grand Valley Park, Brandon area - construction of water slide MR. SP EAKER : The Honour ab le Member for Minnedo sa. MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is di rected to the Minister of Natural Resources. lt relates to the proposed water slide being constructed in the Grand Valley Park, Brandon area. I wonder if he could inform the House if the impact study has been undertaken in the park area and if that has been completed? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Natura l Resources. HON. S. USKJW: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure that we're doing an impact study. I know that we have given up some of the wayside park that we used to operate for the convenience of the motoring public toward the person that is operating, or will operate, the new water slide.

There is another component to that park and I believ e it has to do with heritage aspects and that is something that is not going to be involved. MR. D. BLAKE: A further question, Mr. Speaker, and I may have to preface it a bit, maybe he could confer with his seat mate. The report in the Brandon Sun says, "Ho weve r , there is some controversy over the proposed water slide," Mr. Speaker , and the

article goes on to say, "Ho wever, Brandon East MLA Len Evans said the Provincial Gove rnment is taking precautions to ensure 580 heritage will be protected. He said the Provincial Department of Natural Resources will do an impact study on the entir e R_ark before construction begins." I unde rstand construction is to begin in April, and it's getting a bit late to do an impact study. HON. S. USKIW: Mr.

Speaker, I believe that has to do with the consideration that had to be given to some of the other historical aspects of that particular site and what we have undertaken ther e is a study to determine whether or not there would be adverse results from that operation. We have concluded that we can co-exist and, therefore, a lease has been entered into with the entrepreneur from the Brandon area. MR. D. BLAKE: .A final supplementary then. Contrary to the report that the study is being done, if the study is going to be done it'll be done on the historical site of the artifacts left by the Black Duck Indian tribe.

I take it from the Minister's remarks then, if he could confirm it, that construction will be proceeding on the site very shortly. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, it's my understanding that there are no bounds that are going to delay that construction at this point in time. Tax rebates - farm trucks using unleaded gas MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I took a question as notice several days ago from the Member for Roblin-Russell with respect to farmers who have trucks which burn unleaded gas, and the farmers are unable to obtain the purple untaxed gas.

And, in response, Mr. Speaker, early last month the petroleum indus try were requested by my department to make tax-free unleaded coloured gasoline available to farmers where there is a demand for such fuel. I've been advised that tax-free unleaded coloured gas is now available at one rural bulk plant which happens to be at Killarney , Manitoba, and that greater availability of this fuel is expected in the near future. Further , Mr.

Speaker, officials from my department and the Department of Agriculture are endeavouring to meet with representatives of the Prairie Petroleum Marketing Association and the agricultural indus try to attempt to resolve this unleaded coloured gasoline supply proble m. School Division meetings re workplace and safety regulations - compensation costs MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I direct my question to the Mi nister of Education. Mr.

Speaker , on February ·8th, the Min ister of Education wrote a letter to all school divisions directing those divisions to implement regulations under The Workplace Safety and Health Act that applied to

WldneedaJ, 3 April, 1115 schools. This new legislation called for the formation of committees that were to" meet four times a year. The comm ittees were to consist of three teachers, one teacher's aide, one custodian, one bus driver and other people. The total cost of each meeting to some divisions was in excess of $1 ,700.00. My question to the Minis ter , Mr. Speaker, is the Mi nister prepared to compensate each di vision for the costs associated with these committee meetings? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter of Education. HON. M. HEMP HILL: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have also communic ated to the school divisions about the application of The Health and Workplace Safety Act to schools by suggesting to them that, while it does apply, and it should apply, and I have recently I think in the last two or three weeks had come across my desk information about accidents in two or th ree schools that could have been serious that dealt with large equipment or with science materials which can be dangerous, so it's clear that it should apply. The

interpretation and how it is applied may not be strict application to the schools, and since they're having some difficulty understanding how to interpret it, I have ind icated to them that we will be putting on workshops over the next few months where we talk to them about how to apply the application of the workplace and safety regulations. I am not sure that the costs of . . . A MEMBER: You forced the expense on them, are you going to pay it? HON. M. HEMPHILL: I'm going to get to it, just a minute, I'm getting to that. A MEMBER: This is a nuisance. What's the point, Mr.

Speaker, some of them aren't even going to pay? it's very simple. HON. M. HEMPHILL: There was a point to what I was saying, Mr. Speaker. If they would just give me a minute, I would tell them what it was. lt was to say that because we haven't yet had the meetings to determine exactly how it should be interpreted or applied, it's not clear, I think, what they're going to go through at the school division level and what the cost would be. The $1 ,700 sounds like a very large amount of mo ney, but if that is the case I'm sure it will come out in the meetings that we have with them. MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

May I remind members that a question should not be a speech, however brief, and that answers should also not be a speech, however brief. School Division meetings re workplace and safety regulations - action re divisions not complying MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I'll pose another very specific question. I believe the other one was that way 581 and, hopefully, the Mi nister will provide a specific answer. Mr.

Speake r, how many divisions are not complying with the regulations at this point in time, and what action will the department be taking with respect to those that do not comply? HON. M. HEMPHILL: That was my answer. In fact, he's interested in having that information, and I tried to give that to him in the first part of my answer. We are talking. to school divisions and going to have orientation and workshops to tell them how to apply the act.

I'm not aware of any that are refusing to apply it; I am aware that many school divisions are having trouble knowing how to interpret the act and how to apply it, and we're going to help them do that. Red River Community College - Mental health workers' course HON. M. HE MPHILL: While I'm on my feet, Mr. Speaker, I would like to answer another question that I took as notice yesterday from the Member for Pembina. He was asking me about a program that he called a letter of intent for a worker development officer training program at Red River Community College.

I took that as notice because I had not heard the name of that program before; that is, because that program does not exist presently , Mr. Speaker. But I think what he was referring to and what he wants to address is the Mental Retardation Worker Training Program which I am quite prepared to provide information on. The training and employment agency presently does have a program under the Core Area Agreement for training entry level workers for the Mental Retardation Worker Training Program. There are 40 people in training, it's an excellent program and it's a two-year program.

The Letter of Intent that he made reference to is a Letter of Intent to give consideration to whether or not this program should go beyond the bounds of the core and be offered in Red River. lt is simply a Letter of Intent. lt's a two-year program. lt has completed its first year. When we complete the second year we will evaluate it and then the decision will be made on the Letter of Intent. School Division meetings re workplace and safety regulations - compensation costs MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr.

Speaker, I never did receive an answer to my question with respect to whether the Provincia l Government is prepared to underwrite the costs associated with these commit tee meetings throughout the school divisions of Manitoba. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Speaker, clearly the purpose of setting up meetings across the province with every school division is to help them learn how to apply the Act and also to provide us with information about any difficulties they're having. I cannot predetermine what they're going to tell us. I await, and we're quite prepared to have any representation made.

Wedneeday, 3 April, 1985 Limestone Generating Station - awarding of order to CGE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOE RN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Deputy Premier concerning the General Electric contract with Hydro that was released without a tender, and in relation to a booklet associated with that pr oject called the Limestone Purchasing Policy Booklet which states, "Manitoba Hydro is comm itted to an open competitive tendering system." Mr.

Speaker, given that the government is telling busi nessmen and firms across the country and around the world that they're committed to an open competitive tendering system, do they now intend to recall and revise that booklet? MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Mini ster of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As Acting Min ister of Energy and Mines, I think it would be appropriate for me to answer that question.

I would ask the member to recall back to the salad days when he was a member of a Cabi net; he was occupying the penthouse suite across the street here, po ssibly a little bit too busy fondling some of his golden taps. But at that time the Schreyer Government entered into an agreement.

He was a member of the Cabinet which did so and I'm quoting from that agreement: "Manitoba undertakes, as a condition of this agreement, to make every reasonable endeavour to support Canadian technology through maxim izing Canadian participation in the supply of turbines and generators for the Limestone Hydro-Electric Generating Station and will make every reasonable effort to complete negotiations" - not tenders -"negotiations for the pu rchase of said equipm ent from Canadian suppliers." And while the Sch reyer Government was in office there were negotiations going on between that government, Manitoba Hydro and Canadian General Electric in order to conclude an arrangement.

Those arrangements were continued on until August of 1978 when they were terminated. They were continued on again, as the Member for Rhin eland knows, as a result of a meeting on approxima tely January 19, 19 81, when he was a member of the Hydro-Electric Board at which time they decided after - (I nterjection) - I have a copy of the minutes of the meeting handy, as it so happens, Mr. Speaker, and it ind icates . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. order please. Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. MR. SPEAKER: Order pl ease. The Honourable Member for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Mr.

Speaker, I rise on a matter of pr ivilege and I will follow my matter of priv ilege with a substantive motion. Mr. Speaker, this is the first opportunity that I've had to peruse the Hansard from yesterday"s Question Period in which yesterday was, should I say, the culmination 582 of a series of questions to the Minis ter of Community Services re garding the closing of the School of Psychiatric Nursin Q at the Manitoba Development Centre at Portage la Prairie. Mr.

Speaker, in trying to elicit from the Minister an answer as to the government's intention and whether in fact they were going to close the school at Portage, we found the Min ister either unable or unwilling to answer the questions that were posed over a number of days. But that, Sir, is not the matter of my pr ivilege that I am posing. The Min ister has demonstrated in attempting to duck the issue, a lack of understanding of the pro blem that has been caused in the mental health community by the closing of the School of Psychiatric Nursing at Portage. - (I nterjection ) - Mr.

Speaker, if the Government House Leader would just have a little patience, I will explain the matter of pr ivilege to him. Mr. Speaker, the Min ister has not undertaken the matter of consultation. She appears to be a captive of her department and has not been pr ovided with proper information in terms of the ability to make the proper decision. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, ohl MR. SPEAKER: Order pl ease, order please. The Honour able Government House Leader on a point of order. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Speaker, I have not heard nor I believe has anyone in the House heard the matter of substance relating to privil ege that the member is raising, and if the member purports to make a speech first and then raise the actual matter of pr ivi lege for you, Sir , to adjudicate upon as to whether or not it has substance, then the member has pla ced his argument before the House without, Sir, your clearance that it Is a legitimate matter of privilege. I think it's only fair, Sir, that he be asked to state his matter of pr ivilege before he makes his speech in support of the motion he would then move. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Opposition House Leader to the same point. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, you know that the member has to make a prima facie case before you, Sir , and it involves the conduct of a particular Minister, and it's the conduct of that particular Min ister that brings about the point of privilege being raised. I suggest to you, Sir, that the member was in the process of doing precisely that. MR. SPEAKER: I have no idea what the matter is that the member is trying to raise. I am anxious to hear what it is. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, and I will very quickly proceed with establishing my case of a matter of pr ivilege. Contrary to answers given by the Min ister over the past several days that there is an alternative to the mental health training for psychiatric nurses at Portage, namely at Brandon and Selkir k, indi cates that she does

Wednesday, 3 April, 1915 not understand the situation, and the closing in Portage will be another substantial blow to rural Manitoba with another closing by this government. Mr.

Speaker , in view of the fact that the Minister has not unde rstood the issue, has not listened to expert advice, or sought expert advice on the matter of the closing of the Portage School of Nursing, and has failed to comprehend fully the issue involved in the closure of the School of Nur sing at Portage, I would move, Sir, seconded by the MLA for Portage la Prairie, that since the Minister of Community Services - pardon me, Sir - I missed the important part of the matter of privilege and I'm very sorry about that In the questioning yesterday, the direct question was posed to the Minister about the government's intention to close the School of Nursing at Portage.

The Minister responded and we'll quote from Page 535: "But with regard to the other question about the decision, I will be going to Portage tomorrow morning to give the decision. " Meaning that today she would be giving the decision in Portage. Subsequent to that, the Minister abused the privileges of this House by stepping outside in the hall and announcing the closure of the School of Portage Nursing to the media, prior to going to Portage, as she said she was going to do in question period in response to questions.

Therefore, Sir, I move, seconded by my colleague, the MLA for Portage la Prairie THAT since the Minister of Community Services has demonstrated a total lack of compassion and concern by announcing the closure of the Portage School of Nursing; and 1. Has betr ayed the trust and confidence of the staff and students of the school; 2. Is jeo pard izing the care offered to the ment ally-h andica pped residents of th e Dev elopmental Centre; 3. Has betrayed the trust of the concerned citizens of Portage la Prairie; 4.

Has betrayed the trust and confiden ce of the me mb ers of this House by making thi s announcement outside the Legislature. And further , that this Minist er's actions clearly demons trate that: 1. She has lost control of her department; 2. That she has failed to consult with those people knowledgeable on the effects of the closure. And I move, Sir, that this Minister now tender her resignation as Minister of Community Services. SPEAKER'S RULING MR. SPEAKER: Order please. One of the requirements in rising on a point of privilege is that the matter be brought to the House at the earliest opportunity.

I will acce pt that the honourable member has done that I listened very carefully to his remarks and read the text of his proposed motion, and I see nothing here which would indicate that the regular business of the House should be suspe nded to allow this matter to be debated at this time, particularly when the Ho�Jse is in Interim Supply or the Committee of Su pply - order please - and gives the honourable member ample 583 opportunity to debate the matters that he brings forward.

They might have to do with his confidence in the Minister's performance or the Minister's handling of the department. lt does not appear to me to be a prima facie case of privilege as it affec ts the Legisl ature. Since there seems no case for dealing with this matter with priority to anything else, there appears not to be a matter involving the House. The Honourable Opposition House Leader. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, we, of course , cannot take issue with your ruling, but the difficulty and concern that I have with respect to precedent is that there seems, at least to us, that some of the comments that you have made with respect to the ruling that you have just given have indicated that my mem bers, or my colleag ue, was looking for an emergency debate, which he certainly wasn't. We believ e, Sir, very seriously that a very serious breach of privilege was under taken by this Minister when, in a direct series of questioning - and I'm trying to say this as politely as I can - misled the House, Mr. Speaker ... MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The honourable member will recall that I sent to all membe rs, not four weeks ago, a description of the procedure to be followed when a matter of privilege is involved. The Speaker does not decide whether or not there is a matter of privilege; that is for the House to decide. The only decision put to the Speaker is whether that matter shall be debated immediately and shall have priority over any other item of business. I have ruled that there is not that prima facie case that it shall be so.

The honourable member may take whatever action he consider s fit; he may not debate the matter. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Spe aker, with request, I do challenge that ruling. MR. SPEAKER: The ruling of the Chair has been challenged. The question before the House is shall the ruling of the Chair be sustained? Those in favour, please say, aye; those opposed, please say, nay. In my opinion, the ayes have it, and I declare the motion carried. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader . HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Health, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Sup ply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the.Chair .

Wedne.dlly, 3 April, 1115 COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY INTERIM SUPPLY MA. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Comm ittee, come to order. We are considering the resolution with respect to Interim Supply. The Honourable Min ister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the other night there was a query made by the Member for Virden in respect to government policy, the policy of the Civil Service Commission in respect to transfers of staff. There is a general manual of admin istration; it's a very long document. I don't believe that it is a matter that I can answer in a few words.

I think the honourable member will have an opportunity during the Estima tes of the Civil Service Commission to go into detail in connection with any query he has. The generality of the answers I made were correct the other night. If he has a specific, I will be happy to deal with the specific case that he has concern with. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman. I wish to condemn the Mi nister and the government for making the totally political move with respect to the Psychiatric School of Nursing in Portage.

This is a centre that deals with people who are very severely mentally handicapped. The nur ses at this centre get training in a way that they will never be able to get it at either Brandon or Selkirk. The centre is a great resource and while they are training they are working with all aspects of mental retardation. There are hydrocephalus, spina bifida, Rubella syndrome, profound birth defects and the Down's syndrome. Now today many of the Down's syndrome are staying in the community and will be part of the Welcome Home Program.

But at this time there are people in the facility that are up to 60 years of age, and the fact that this government would take a nursing program when there are over 700 people in that facility and move it into constituencies that are held by this govern ment, and for no other reason, this is not an area where they are saving near enough money if there was to be a saving that it would count. I really feel that the Mini ster is to be severly condemned for listening to political people other than people that understand the situation there.

I would like to read into the record after a minute the letter from Mr: Doug Dorsey that he presented to Peter Warren. Mr. Dorsey has got a daughter in the centre at Portage. She's been there for over 20 years. He - and I'l l quote, because he calls it a "rotten political move." This is a man who has been involved in the Portage Centr e and he's been involved with mental retardation at all levels, at the communi ty level, at the provincial level, and at the national level, and these people are crying for help. Not only do the nurses work in the centre but they work in the community as we ll.

They don't just help the people with mental retardation; they are helping the families. lt's a crying shame that this government at this time would make such an out-and-out political move in this area. 584 The nur ses, when they gradua te, 80 percent are at Portage la Prairie or the St. Amant Centre, but the majority stay at Por�ge. Many of them come from the Portage area; they live there. This School of Nursing is an important part of the Portage la Prairie commun ity.

I really feel that this government should take a second look, and it's time that if the Minis ter won't take a stand on this that the Premier and the other members of the Cabinet step in and do something about it. lt's a disgrace because they are not going to get the same kind of training. Here they have the most natural resource in the world where all the residents are in Portage and they are moving this out of the area. lt's not right. I would like to read into the record the letter that Mr. Dorsey sent to Peter Warren. "Dear Mr. Warren: This morning I read in the Winnipeg Sun that Mrs.

Muriel Smith, Minis ter of Community Affairs, has announc ed the closing of the Psychiatric Nurses School in Portage la Prairie, Manitoba. "To say that I am upset at this blatant disregard for the residents of the Manitoba centre is perhaps the under statement of the year. If I were an MLA, I would call for the resignation of not only Mrs. Smith but the entir e government.

"One certainly does not require the services of a swami or own a crystal ball to realize just how very political this measure is." - (Interject ion) - I'm reading a letter into the record .- "The Premier's home riding is Selkirk and, of course, Len Evans comes from Brandon. The incumbent at Portage, Mr. Hyde, is of Conservative political faith. One does not have to be a graduate of Political Science to see through the facade being put forth by the NDP unl ess it is, of course, of expediency to their party. "The courses at all three locations ... "Now, Mr.

Chairman, I know the members on the other side think this sort of thing is funny, when maybe somebody makes an error, but this isn't a funny subject and it's not funny to the people In Portage and it's not funny to the many famil ies that this is affecting. I would just like to see a little bit more seriousness on this particular subject. I am back to the letter.

"The courses at all thr ee locations - Brandon Mental Health Centre, Selkirk Mental Health Centre and the Manitoba Development Centre - are of two years duration. lt is interesting to note the student nur ses at both Selkirk and Brandon spend a mere six weeks at Portage out of two years. lt is inc onceivable to think they would close the Portage facility when it is the only school geared to have the students interact with the residents on a continuing basis and to help increase their level of adaptation and inde pendent functioning to assist in reaching their highest potential, whatever that level might be.

"Certain ly, psychiatric nur ses, with a great deal of experienced members, are going to be required to assist in the Welcome Home Program being sponsored by the government. This is not a job of aides or gradua tes of a six month course at Red River Community College. "Final ly, If one thinks things are as bad as reported at the Selkirk Mental Centre, then they have enough to do to clean house there without trying to run a psychiatric nurses' school. "Mr . Warren, you have always said that if one is not happy with government, one should go to the polls and change things. I pray that Mr. Pawley will realize the

Wednesday, 3 April, 1985 error of his ways and call an election. Then I am certain many many parents of retarded siblings or children will not turn the other cheek but will rectify this grave injustice. Yours very '\ruly, Doug Dorsey, parent of a retarded child ." Now, Mr. Dorsey is pleading with this government to change its mind on the School of Nursing. I can't believe that a government that is so caring would take such a political move, and I would suggest that the Minis ter take another close look because this is an issue that will blow up right in their faces.

I think it's time that they got down to brass tacks and stopped interfering and stopped being so political and pay attention to the retarded persons in the facility at Portage who need this hel p and which helps the nur ses with the background that they are going to need to go out into the commun ity. MR. CH AIRMAN: The Hon ourab le Mem ber for Pembina. MR. D. ORCHARD: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased that the Minister of Community Services is here and listening, because the Mi nister of Community Services, I have to tell you, does not understand what she has done to the Portage School of Nursing.

She demonstrates from her answers in question period that she has no concept whatsoever of the role and the purpose and the function of the Portage School of psychiatric nurse training. She is getting bad information from departmental staff or someone and when she does get information, Mr. Chairman, she refuses to accept it. She keeps trying to say, Sir, the report that I quote from in question period is not the most recent report. That there has, in fact, been a compilation of three reports and the most recent one changes the whole picture. Well, Mr.

Chairm an, I want to assure you I have all three initial reports. I've got Appendix A, Appendix B, Appendix C, and from these reports dr awn up by the departmental staff, comes the report that was delivered to the Minis ter last week on about the 25th of March. lt is the last report. lt is the one on which she based her decision to close the Portage School and this report in no way, recommends the reclosing the Portage School of Psychiatric Nursing. Mr.

Chair man, I posed to the Min ister today in question period because this final report clears up an error -and I will point out this error to it and put it on the record because it's worth repeating. On page 7 of her final report it says: "A notable change in this report occurs on page 4, first paragraph. Total operating budget savings were projected at $1 32,500 per annum and this figure has now changed to $24,000 per annum". In addition to that, Mr. Chairman, later on in the report there's an identification that three surplus instructors will also net the government a $99,000 saving.

Now, I presume that when the Mi nister steps out of the House and makes the irresponsible statement she did yesterday afternoo(l, after telling us in this House that the Portage School, the announcement would be made in Portage this evening, and steps out into that hall yesterday afternoon after refusing to answer the question in this House and abusing the privileges of this House, steps out and says, it's going to be closed and furthermore, that there's a saving of between $1 00,000 and $1 25,000 annua lly. The Minis ter does not even know what the report says. She doesn't understand what's going on.

She doesn't know the savings. She has no concept of what she has decided. Because, Sir, in this same newspaper

article she said there will be no layoffs. In other words, Sir , the additional $99,000 of staff saving will not occur because those staff, she said this afternoon, will be . redeployed . There is no $1 25,000 saving, there Is a $24,000 saving, an amount not even equal to the daily advertising budget that this government has put forward to polish their sagging ima ge. And who are they collecting the money from?

They are collecting the money from possibly the most disadvantaged group in our society, those being the developmentally handicapped child ren, the Manitoba Developmental Centre and those who are in the Welcome Home Program and in residence throughout the commu nity. Those are the people that they are cutting this program from, at a saving of $24,000, Sir? That is the most irrespo nsibl e action that any government in the history of this province has taken. And how they can do it is beyond me.

The advice from those in the department that have been asked to report are saying, there are problems with the closing of the Portage School. This final report identifies many problems with the closing. This Min ister has refused, Sir, to even consult with Dr. Glen Lowther, the gentleman who has had 35 years' experience with the mentally handicapped people in this province, a man who is very familiar with the Portage School and the school training function, a man who is this Minister's chief medical adviser. She did not even ask his opinion nor did her departmental study group ask his opinion.

The Association of Registered Psychiatric Nurses were contacted late in the game and told that there's going to be a closing, take it or leave it. There was no consultation with them and they are the people by legislation who must give opinion and look after the education of Psychiatric Nurses in this province and they were not even consulted. 585 Now, Mr. Chairm an, why is this government closing the Portage School? it is not because they are saving a lot of money; $24,000 they will spend In 12 hours of advertising, a half day's advertising will be the amount they're saving in the closing of this school.

The First Minis ter in his Estimates this year has $261 ,000 of incre ased budget to hire five political apple polishers, while the Portage School is being closed to save $24,000, not even one-tenth of the politi cal hirelings cost in the Premier's office in this year's budget. Where is this government's priorities, Sir ? This government when it was elected in 1981 said it would be a caring government and look after its citizens. This government elected in 1981 promised to deliver additional services to rural Manitoba and what are they doing?

They've cut the Land Titles Office out of Boissevain and now they're cutting the School of Psychiatric Nurses in Portage la Prai rie, another rural commun ity. What communities are they not touching when it comes to psychiatric training of nurses? The Premier's own constituency in Selkirk and the MLA for Brandon East constituency in Brandon. This move, Sir , cannot be justified in terms of cost saving. This move

Wed ....., I April, 1115 cannot be justified in terms of program improvement because both Brandon and Selkir k offer training, dealing with patients of mental illne ss. Only Portage la Prairie offers training and clinical experience with developmentally retarded individuals; in other words the mentally handicapp ed of this province. The Portage School is the only one that deals with developmental retardation.

The Portage School is the only facility that gives Registered Psychiatric nu rses experience in training and working with th ose indi viduals, not only at the Developmental Centre but within the Welcome Home community where those in di viduals will be placed into the main stream of community life. That Portage School offers the unique training opportuni ty. Brandon and Selkirk offer training in mental illne ss. Why did this government close the unique school and leave Brandon and Selkirk open when there's not a dollar saving that's significant? lt is pure and simple politics, Mr.

Chairman, the crassest kind of politics that we have ever seen demons trated by any government in this province and it is being demons trated by these gang of New Democrats that claim they care about the little person in the Province of Manitoba. I ask you who else, Sir, deserves protection and assistance and the support from the government and from the taxpayers than our mentally handicapped citizens in this province? They are the people, the mentally handic apped if anyone, who need help, assistance and support. But what have these people done?

I'll use the ti meworn phrase, Sir, they are kicking out the crutches from our mentally handicapped citizens in this province with this closure. And why are they doing it? J'll make a speculation and if I'm wrong, I'l l apologize. But in these reports, it says No. 1, if the student count goes above 36 in Selkirk they may have to hire an additional staff to instruct them, which means the redeployment of teaching staff will be down to two.

Well, Sir, I just want to read you some of the student placements that have taken place in Selkirk over the last couple of years because I think you'll find it indeed very demonstrative of the kind of poor decision-making process this government has entered into. In the fiscal year of 1982 there were 39 students at Selkirk started the course. There were 50 in 1983. There were 41 in 1984. Already they are over the 36; already they're going to have with the closing of Portage additional students, and they're going to have to hire more staff.

And furthermore the reports indic ate that if the student numb ers go up, they may have to move to a new facility, which to me means that they are going to have to spend capital dollars to im prove the training facility at Selkirk. And at the same time they claim to be saving $24,000 in Portage? Sir, there is no other motive that can be attributed to this Min ister and this government, other than a purely political motive to close the Portage School and to leave Brandon and Selkirk in place.

And, Sir, the tragedy of it all is, that this Min ister of Community Services has a very bad record in not being competent in the admin istration of her department. She has created chaos in the Children's Aid Society with her ill-conc eived and ill-starred plans there. Sir, now that she has embarked on the closing of the School of Psychiatric Nursing at Portage la Prairie she has emba rked on another fiasco, ano ther 586 departmental - I'm looking for a word that describes it adequately, and I can't think of anything that's parliam entary, Sir, � d I apologize. This is a debacle, that's all it is, Sir.

This Min ister is out of touch with her department; she has been taken down the road where she was too late to reverse the decision.

The department and staff, some of her political hirelings that are very politically oriented to the New Democratic Party, have gotten her in this position, and she cannot get herself out of it, other than to close the Portage School. lt is a wrong decision, it is based on bad advice from departmental staff. lt flaunts and flies in the face of professional advice she has gotten in her departmental report, and it has not taken into consideration expert advice that's available to the Min ister. This Min ister is out, her department is out of control. She is incompetent.

She is going to ruin yet another service delivery program to the citizens of Manitoba and, on that case, Sir, she should resign for the benefit of those Manitobans that rely on the services provided by the Portage School. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MEACIER: Mr. Chairman, a question to the Min ister of Education, could she indic ate if there will be an increase in funding for inde pendent schools in this fiscal year? MA. CHA IRMAN: The Hon ourabl e Mini ster of Education. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, that question was asked in a previous question period and I answered it.

I said that grants to other outside organizations or institutions would be announ ced during Estima tes. MA. G. MERCIEA: Mr. Chairman, the government is seeking Interim Supply. The whole purpose of this is to obtain information from the government on its spending plans, and it's incumbent upon the Min ister to answer questions. She can't ask us to wait until her Estimates, which are scheduled to be the very last in the House, Mr. Chairman, which will be frankly some time probably in July or August. Frankly these schools also have to do some budgeting for next year and are entitled to that information now.

So I repeat the question to the Min ister. Could she inform the House as to what the incr eases will be in funding for independent schools? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I'm quite aware that they have to prepare their budgets. They had to prepare their budgets last year, and last year they got the information when the Estim ates were tabled, as they did the year before, and the year before, and as they will this year. MR. G. MERCIEA: Mr. Chairman, the Estima tes were all completed. All of the Estima tes of the government were completed before the end of June last year.

We have started extr emely late this Session, Mr. Chairman. The Education Estimates are scheduled to be last.

Wedneac:lay, 3 April, 1985 MR. C. MANNESS: They were comple ted the middle of April last year. MR. G. MERCIER: The Member for Morris advises me the Education Estima tes were done in the middle of April last year. This year they will not be done until July or August, according to the

schedule of the govern ment. I think the schools are enti tled to have that information. The Minis ter is obligated to provide that information to the House when the government is asking for Interim Supply. I ask her, once again, to supply that information to the House now. HON. M. HEMPHILL: Mr. Chairman, I repeat, I will provide th at information to the Hous e when my Estimates are up. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, that answer is just not acceptable to mem bers on this side of the House, nor to the people who are to be the recipients of this funding. You kn ow, we're not here, Mr .

Chairman, to accommodate some public relations program that the Minis ter of Education wants to carry out during her Estimates. We are here to serve the people of Manitoba, and she is here as a Min ister of the government 'to serve the people of Manitoba. She has no right, I say, Mr. Chairman, to withhold that information from the House, particularly when the government is here asking for Interim Supply to pay their employees. The public and the members of this House are entitled to this information now. I ask the Min ister to stand up once more and supply that information to the House. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, just on that last point, I'm going to say to the Minis ter, from the other side of the debate, that she is in fact in a dilemma. She is getting pressure from the Conservative opposition to increase aid to private and parochial schools and to announce it now. On the other hand, I think that there are a substantial numb er of people in society who do not believe that is the right course of action.

I have to remind the Min ister, if it's necessary, but simply jog her mem ory, that she represents a political party and a government which, for 50 years, has ind icated that they do not support the enrichment or extension of aid to private and parochial schools, so she is on the spot. I hope that she will not do what she did a couple of years ago and simply decide to make a decision to put more money into private and parochial schools without the support of her own caucus and her own party and the ma jority of the people of this province - (Interjection) - Mr. Cha irman, I didn't hear that question.

I don't know where that came from. A MEMBER: What do you think she did? MR. R. DOERN: What do I think she did? Mr. Chairman, I know what she did. She gave an incr eased amount of funding to private and parochial schools without the support of her own political party and her own caucus. 587 The decision was made, and then the members were expected to support that decision. Mr. Chairman, that is not the way to operate if a government wants to get re-elected.

If the government wants to go out on its own recognizance and then find out that its own members are not supporting it, both inside caucus and in the party, then they're free to do so. But I am simply cautioning the Minis ter and the government again on this issue, because the official opposition, for whatever reasons, has reversed its position in the last few years and decided to support aid to private and paro ch ial schools. The New DemocratiC Party has for five decades not been in support of that particular policy.

I say to the Min ister that it is her responsibility to defend and protect the public school system. That is her responsibilit y, anything she does above and beyond that is not a first charge on her time, her abil ity, her budget, etc. I want to say to her, as well, without getting into a big debate on the Education Estimat es which will be coming up in a couple of weeks, that the public school system is in a bad state of affairs - declining enrolment, a lot of bilingual nonsense, a lot of busing that is going on in our communit y, and school closings, Mr. Chairman.

Well I'm saying to the member who will shortly be replaced by Eldon Ross that I would be very interested to hear him get up in this debate and give his position on the question of aid to private and parochial schools, because my impression is that he would in fact be opposed. Now he may have changed his position recently; you can't be sure, but I would suspect that his position is the same as mine and that many other mem bers in the caucus and mem bers in the Cabinet would share a similar position. So I am simply saying to the Minis ter, in addition to all the problems going on - and I see things, Mr.

Chairman, in the public school system that I am very concerned about. When I see little kids who are telling me that they don't go to their neigh bourhood school because they have to get on a bus and go a couple of mil es away because the school that's in their neighbourh ood is French Imm ersion, or it's closed because of declining enrolment, then I'm concerned. I'm also concerned about the fact that if monies are diverted to the private and parochial school system, then that may, in fact, partly erode the public school system.

So, I'm saying that, just as the Attorney-General is in a tough position when it comes to the question of abortion - and I wish he'd turn up in the Legislature so we could raise some of these questions with him. Mr.

Chairman, I simply say that, just as the Attorney­ General is in a tough position, I say that the Min ister of Education is also in a tough position, and I don't want to see her blowing with the wind, and I don't want to see her suddenly feel that half the Chamber is for aid to private and parochial schools, so the ready-fix qui ck position is, let 's do the same so th at the Conservatives won't have one position and we'll have anoth er.

Let's get on the same issue, the old Brian Mul roney position where you take every position identical with John Turner, and then there are no issues other than personality; where you try to make no distinction between the two parties. Mr. Chairman, that's a dangerous and a slippery slope. That is not the right position because, I say to

Wednesdar, 3 April, 1915 the Minister, that sitting right around her, including the Minister of Labour, are people who do not believe in aid to private and parochial schools. - (Interjection) - Who am I to tell them that? We ll, Mr. Chairman, I think I know. I served the New Democratic Party longer than the Min ister of Health - far longer. He served the Liberal Party and the New Democratic Party; I have only served the New Democratic Party. Mr.

Chairman, all I can say is that I have a pretty good idea of what the position of the party is on that issue. 1 also want to say to the Minister of Health that I congratulate him, a sort of backhanded congratulation, that he is the one who snuck through the aid to private and parochial schools a couple of years ago. lt was his efforts in Caucus, in Cabinet, that got that through; that is a fact, Mr. Chairman. So, we'll see whether he .

Is successful again, and we'll see how many members of the New Democratic Caucus are prepared to stand up and to, because of fear, not motivated by principle, but motivated by fear, that there may be some public support for a position of the official opposition on his question. Mr. Chairman, I say that the public does not support the Conservative Party on this issue; I say that the New Democratic position on this issue is much stronger and has more public appeal, and is politically more astute than that of the official opposition.

But I watch with some trepidation and nervousness the position of the Minister and her colleagues as to whether or not they'r e going to throw in the towel , chuck out the 50-year position of the party and decide to go with the Tories on this particular issue. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman. I think I've heard ever ything today with the last speaker - somebody that's talking about changing their mind on something. When he first broke in here as a rookie he was one of the best supporters of the French fact in bilingualism; he was going to do everyt hing he can.

Now, all of a sudden, he's talking about swinging with what he thinks is popular in Manitoba and he's going to lecture us. it's the first time - sit down, sit down. You've had your chance, sit down. Sit down and listen, you've had your chance. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. The Mem ber for Elmwood on a point of order. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Health is stating a false position. Mr. Chairman, he Is making an untrue statement. He is correct in saying that I have MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please, order please. Order please. A diff erence of opinion does not constitute a point of order.

The Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJARDINS: Mr. Chairman, talking about opinion, he gave his opinion a while ago, and I cert ainly intend to give mine now. Now, he's stated that the policy for the last 50 years of the New Democratic Party was against aid to private schools; that wasn't an issue. 588 This issue that came in was after the McFarlane Report at the time, and all parties of this House were against it for some reason,,_or other. To say that the party was always against it is absolutely wrong.

In fact, that is the reason why I crossed the floor in 19 69; it was because I felt that there were enough members of the party that would promote this, and it was only kind of a fluke that it didn't go through at that time because the members of the opposition then played politics. - (Int erject ion) - Ye s, they played politics. but they weren't all against aid to private schools. There's no way that they were against aid to private schools. lt was a Session at the time that Schreyer made a faux pas and said that he would quit if he didn't get it.

Of course, Green went out and organized , and these people figured we can kick the hell out of Green, we can't beat Schreyer; that's exactly what happened and eve rybody knows it. Unfortun ately, they're suffering since then. If this was a policy of this government and this party, that they are definitely against it as adamantly as the member said, I wouldn't be sitting in this seat and he knows it. There is no doubt about that.

There is a diversity on this side, the same as is on the other side, and I don't care about the next election and so on because I believe in parental rights in education, and I believe in equality of opportunity for all the kids. That is what I hope guides everybody. I don't give a damn about the Member for Elmwood, but all the member s out there who won't play politics, who feel that this is important, I hope that this is what they let guide them in this vote, and I hope there Is some correct ion for the inj ustice that has been perpetuated on these people for a long time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Minnedosa.

MR. D. BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I haven't had an opportunity to get Into the Budget Debate. so I want to make a few remarks on Interim Supply with the government asking for almost a billion dollars - $956 million. As the Member for St. Norbert said, I think we have some opportunity to find out just what they're going to spend it on. I know they're not spending very much on highways.

We 've seen the increase in the High way's Budget, and we'll get into that very short ly, probably Monda y when we get into the Minister's Estimates, so I won't waste the House's time on talking about highways, or the jobs' program. or the advertising budg et on Lim estone that the government is proposing, because that has been done before and will be done from time to time as we get into other stages of the Estimates Review, Mr. Chairman.

But I wanted to relate one particular problem that I have in my area-. and I'm glad the Minister of Education is here - because the Town of Rivers, which is in my constituenc y, during the 50's when the air base was going at full speed, there was a large increase in the enrolment in the schools there. lt was necessary to build another school in Rivers and also to enlarge the elementary schools, so they built a collegiate and put a substantial addition, over the years . onto the elementary school. Wel l, with the subsequent closing of the air base there and the failure of the site to become an industrial

W.llneedey. 3 April, 1115 park that provided employment for a large number of people, there has been some declining enrolment in the schools in the Town of Rivers. The heating system in the collegiate now has deteriorated to the point where it must be replaced, and the Department of Education, the finance section, the finance department, has told the Rolling River School Division that there are not enough pupils now in the collegiate to justify them paying the cost of the heating system, and they will only pay 60 percent of lt, and the taxpayers of the school division must pick up the other 40 percent.

But, if they transfer the Grades 7 and 8 students from the elementary school into the collegiate, then there will be sufficient numbers of pupils in that school to justify them paying the whole cost of the new heating system. Now, Mr. Chairm an, you don't have to be an economist to figure out that the elementary school still has to be heated, the system in the collegiate is going to have to be replaced at some time or other.

The Minister has had letters and various briefs from the citizens and the parents at Rivers who are extremely upset over this disruption of the children, moving Grades 7 and 8 into a collegiate atmosphere that they don't feel they are ready for. lt upsets the intramural sports program. lt puts some of the younger children in with the senior students, which they don't feel is a good environment for them to be in. . The costs are continuing. They have to heat both of those units. it seems a logical decision, Mr.

Chairman, to provide the cost of that heating system in the collegiate, to have the government provide the full cost. The heating unit is going to have to be replaced some time. If they don't transfer Grades 7 and 8 Into that school, they could probably close off a por1ion of it and maybe the heating system would be adequate for that, or they could renew half of the heating system and use it until enrolment either comes up, or if enrolment stabilizes at a decreased rate in the Town of Rivers, the collegiate institute would probably handle all of the students and they could completely close the elementary schools.

So the citizens out there are at wit's end. They respect the school divi sion's decision because they are concerned with another burden on the taxpayers of having to pick up 40 percent. So they propose to transfer Grades 7 and 8 into the collegiate so they can recover 100 percent of the costs, and it's creating a disruption in the town with the parents and with the school division that it seems to be absolut ely unnecessary. Now I know there has been representations made to the Minister. In fact, there's a letter from a group of concerned citizens dated March 8th from Mr.

Richard Oyer, Concerned Parents and Citizens of Rivers, which she has. I know there have been some meetings with Mr. Frechette of the Public Schools Finance Board. Mr.

Chairman, if she would just take the time to look at the situation and look at the logical conclusion that could be drawn very very quickly and provide that extra funding that's needed to replace the heating system in the collegiate, leave the elementary school as it is and in time when enrolment stabalizes, which it appears to be doing reasonably quickly, the collegiate at that time may handle all of the students and then they can Incorporate a kindergarten or a 1-12 education facility and they could close the elementary school completely. · But in the meantime both of those units have to be heated; there is going to be a new heating system required in the collegiate eventually; in fact it's required now; and it seems logical that the funds should be provided to put that heating system in now and then it will be ready to accommodate those students when the time comes.

There are quite a number of other things that I could get Into, Mr. Chairman, but I won't take the time. I know there are others that have concerns they want to express here while we are In Interim Supply. I might just add that I fully support the position taken by the Member for Pemblna with regard to the closing of the Portage School. I have had the opportunity to have constituents go through that training program there, and I also had the opportunity to work In Selkirk and see the training program there.

As an uneducated observer of the psychiatric nursing training, it seems that they are completely different courses and they gain completely unrelated training in the two different settings that they operate under. So I support what has been said by the Member for Pembina and other members on this side. I would urge the Minister to just back off and take another hard long look at what she is doing because it's going to create a bad atmosphere in Portage la Prairie that's not going to bode well for the government .

I know they may be saying well, that's fine, we are not going to win that seat anyway, but we've got Selkirk and we can save Len Evans in Brandon East by doing something for him. - (Interjection) - I am not criticizing the water slide, Mr. Minister, because it's In my constituency. I was merely just worried about the archeological, or the artifacts there from the Black Duck Indian Tribe, that I wanted to be sure they were preserved and not disturbed.

I know there is also a great concern with the residents of the Grand Valley area there with the extra traffic that's going to be created - children and very narrow roads - so the Minister of Highways is going to be hit with a proposal before long, after the slide Is in operation, to rebuild that Grand Valley road to accommodate the additional traffic.

But I would just urge the Minister of Education to take a look at the concerns of the people from Rivers and I am sure when she looks at all of the facts there and the presentations that have been made to her, that a satisfactory conclusion will be drawn and everyone in the Rivers area and the Rolling River School Division Board will be happy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

The Minister of Health spoke just a few minutes ago and the Member for Elmwood Interrupted him and indicated that he had not changed his position with respect to language rights in this province over the last number of years. I want to refer to Hansard of April 16, 19 80, where Mr. Ooern Is quoted as follows: "Mr . Speaker, Bill No. 2 is a significant bill. lt is one that has already had some interesting debate and no doubt we will hear from more members of the government and of the 589

Wedneaclay, 3 April, 1115 opposition parties. One of the things, I think, that we have to realize when I speak di rectly and narrowly in the framework of the bill is that the measure before us is, in fact, expensive and costly, and I think some of us have not yet fully realized and certainly the public hasn't fully reali zed that it will cost a great deal in terms of millions of dollars for such a simple measure as to bring Manitoba back to perhaps where it should have been some 90 years ago.

Because since 18 90, in effect, Manitoba has been officially unili ngual and now, I suppo se, from this point on, we will become officially bil ingu al. And the task, in the narrow sense, is formida ble." He goes on, on Page 2577 in conclusion, this is Mr. Doern speaking on Bill No. 2,

An Act respecting the operation of

Section 23 of The Manitoba Act in regard to Statutes, or as it was known, The Official Languages Act. He ended up: "So I say, Mr. Speaker, in a sentence, I believe that Bill 2 is a step in the right direc.tion, and as it has been said , a journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.

But there are many more steps that must be taken and there must also be, as we advance along the way, appreciation for the multicultural diversity of the people of Manitoba and Canada ." So I say that it is true that sometimes members do change their positions apparently over the years and I believe that it's very clear that that particular member hasn't. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood . MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, just a brief reply.

I look forward to read ing to the Mini ster and to the government the letter of one Howard Pawley when he was Attorney-General; a famous letter that I think someone on this side has about how he carefully explai ned to that person how, dear me, there is no way we could possibly provide French services in Manitoba because of the multicultural makeup and mix. That letter has in fact been and I in fact have that letter and I, of course, will be happy to read it. So I simply say at this point, Mr. Chairman, to the Minis ter, and I've heard that statement before that I have always stood for rectifying the situation.

I have made that statement many times in this House. I have not been in favour of official bilingu alism. I have been in favour of the original 18 70 agreement, the restoration of rights in the courts and the Legislature. That is how far I believe the government should go and I believe the government should not go beyond that. I have said that many times and I will say it again. I have also, Mr.

Chairman, never been opposed to the French language or French-Canadian people or people who speak French -never - but I am against massive amounts of government money being poured into the commun ity, poured into a lot of artificial organizations that couldn't last two seconds without the big bucks that are sent into them. So speaking languages and treating people as equal, I don't have any problem with that. I have a lot of problems and will fight to my last breath, Mr. Chairman, trying to make Manitoba officially bilingual. Mr.

Chairman, I will also say this, for the benefit of members opposite, there is only one province in Canada right now that's officially bilingual, New Brunswick.

If 590 you want to see a society that is being torn to shreds and ripped apart, go there and see the "good work" that was done by SQmebody named Richard Hatfield -remember him? -and how he made his province officially bilingual, and how there is nothing but strife and serious social problems in that community today, and how people are leaving that province, are finding it hard to get emplo yment and are at their wit's end trying to decide what to do when they have a choice between a peculiar and bizarre Premier and a Li beral Party which is weak. They are in a real di lemma in that particular province.

So if the Min ister of Finance wants to get up and start the French Language Debate all over agai n, well, let him continue. Let him revive the issue; let him reintroduce legislation. Let him go before the people of Rossmere, who will throw him out on his ear, and tell them that he is going to run on that platform, that he's going to ram the French language question down their throats. Mr. Chairman, he won't be around, and I am telling the Honourable Minis ter right now. He says, I'm in danger, Mr. Chairman. Well, we'll see, I say I'm not in danger. I say he's in danger.

I say that in his riding and in River East and in other ridings that are traditionally New Democratic that they do not have the support of their own members, let alone the people of Manitoba. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, the Minister of Education is not in her seat, but she hopefully will be listening in a minute to what I have to say. - (I nterjection) - Okay, perhaps the Minis ter of Finance or the Acting Government House Leader will tell her. I have asked her a question four or five times, and she's refused to answer. I think it is incumbent, Mr.

Chairman, upon a Min ister to answer that type of question in Interim Sup ply. I'm not asking to get into a debate over the particular subject, I am asking information about what the government intends to do in the financing of independent schools in the next fiscal year. I do not accept her answer that we have to wait until Estimates which will be sometime in July or August.

I want to say to the Mini ster of Finance and the Acting House Leader that unless she suppl ies that information in the next short while, I am giving serious consideration to standing up and debating the Interim Supply Bill to ensure that it will not pass today. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, the situation that Manitoba Hydro and Provinci al Government has put this province into, because they have absolutely thrown out the bidding system which has always been regarded as something that was almost sacred in the Provinc e of Manitoba, is one that is going to put the province in a very difficult situation. Mr. Chairman, the Province of Manitoba is an export province. We are only a million people. We manufacture a tremendous amount of products here for our size.

........, 3 April, 1115 Mr. Chairman, if we go away from the tender system that we have stuck to all these years, we could have nothing but consequence because we will lose in that particular battle. I'm well aware of the fact that in Quebec we have a hard time floating, and other provinces do have some protective measures when they're calling tenders which is not a good situation but, as my leader mentioned the other day, the Canadian Manufacturers Association is absolutely opposed to moving away from the tender system within the Province of Manitoba. Mr.

Chairman, let's go down memory lane, as the First Mi nister mentioned the other day, sometimes it's a very good habit. I refer to the Jenpeg generators that were purchased from a Russian manufacturer. If you refer to the dialogue and the absolute statements that were made by people to the Tritschler Commission, you'll find on Page 156 regarding the term of generator contract that was for Jenpeg, that there was a situation there that the engine ers in Hydro could very easily have turned down the lo west tender on the basis of performance of those generators in other areas.

Certainly nobody has to accept the lower tender, and in this particular case there was every reason and documentation to show that there would be problems with those generators and that the parts would be hard to get after it was built. I think they're still having problems. Warranties would be bad; and the performance of those generators in Norway had not been good. But, Mr. Chairman, Manitoba Hydro and the Provincial Government at the time insis ted that the tender system be preserved in this province and insisted on purchasing the lowest bidd er, the Russian generators. Mr. Chairman, the situation arose again.

During the time that Manitoba Hydro was asking for bids on the contract for the direct current line from Kettle Rapids to Winni peg, there was no question that there was a bid that came in. The lowest tender was Brown Boveri, a European company, and the European company was the low bidder against CGE of Canada. The Federal Government at that time refused to supply the money at the low in terest rate or finance the money at no Interest rate on the Brown Boveri part of the contract, because it did not have Canadian content.

The Provincial Government stood to lose a considerable amount of financing money from the Federal Government. Mr. Chairman, also in that contract that CGE had told the Premier and the Schr eyer Government of the day that there would be a $6-million plant built in Brandon, Manitoba. Hydro took the position that the $6-million plant was being done on the basis of di scussion with the govern ment, and Hydro took the position that they had no alternative but to take the lowest bid .

The Government of the Day fought off all of the pressures of the Federal Government and the pressures of CGE at the time, and they stuck with the tender system. Mr. Chairman, Mr.

Schr eyer was quoted in the "Brandon Sun" on March 15 , 1975 -when the time of this Brown Boveri contract was involved and he had just been to Ottawa to have discussion with the Federal Government in February, found out that he could not get any financing for that particular part of the job -as saying any deviation from open bidding practice would harm the long-standing credibility of Manitoba Hydro and 591 then result in withdrawal of competition by companies of Canadian overseas companies in future Hydro tenders.

The· Premier of the day, and the Government of the Day, and the Hydro people of the day, were fighting very sincerely and hard to maintain the tender system within this province. Mr. Chairman, I refer to a meeting of April 1, 1975, almost 10 years ago, when the Premier of the Day, in the Committee of Public Utilities and Natural Resources, Mr. Schre yer, stated, "Well, Mr. Chairman ... "-when Mr. Craik asked Mr. Bateman a question, Mr. Bateman· said I'll defer that one, Mr. Chairman, to my Minis ter -who was the Premier -". . . it is something which I don't think lends itself to any particularly short answer.

The fact of the matter is that the proposal that was made by Canadian General Electric was, if accepted, would have been a very real and drastic departure from the bid system and from the ethics of the bid system." Further on , in the discussion, Mr. Chairman, Mr. Schreyer said, I feel that there Is a good deal involved here, which makes me wonder about the ethics that are practiced In terms of governments expressing solitude for one firm, at the expense of a whole raft or a whole context of bid systems and the ethics that surround the bid system. Mr.

Chairman, the government of the previous NDP Government used to fight and battle and stand up in this House and say that the tender and bid system was sacred to the integrity of Ontario Hydro and to the integrity of the Government of Manitoba. Now, Mr. Chairman, .we have a situation where we have given a $101 million order to Canadian General Electric Company without any tendering being done by Hydro for the job. We don't have anything substantial in the way of where the $10 million that Hydro have offered to spend in Man itoba. We don't have anything in writing that says what they're going to do.

We just have a commitment that says they will spend $10 million in Manitoba between now and 19 91, a six-year period. Mr. Chairman, Canadian General Electric could spend that without batting an eye. That works ·out to $1. 6 million a year and I cari assure you, Canadian General Electric could place that kind of an order tomorrow. Canadian General Electric is a $30 billion organ ization, the seventh largest company in the world.

They have a building program going on daily within their company and this government could not sit them down and make them sign on the dotted line as to what actually was going to be done in the Province of Manitoba. Now, Mr. Chairman, we heard from the Min ister of Finance just a little while ago and he started to talk about the discussions that went on and the negotiations that went on when we were in government and the negotiations that apparently went on when the Member for Elmwood was in government about how we had discussions and negotiations with compan ies regarding the generators for Limestone. Well, Mr.

Chairman, I can assure you that when we were In government, there was a committee set up between my deputy, Mr. Thompson, at the time; Mr. Blachford, the Chairman of Hydro; Mr. Anderson, the Deputy Mini ster of Energy at the time and they, I believe, sent out letters to many suppliers saying that when these tenders would come out, they would have to specify in their tender exactly what the spinoff in industrial benefits would be for the Province of Manitoba.

At no time was there any discussion with any supplier on the basis that they would receive that contract without a tender and I name the members of the comm ittee of our government that were there -Mr. Blachford, Mr. Thompson and Mr. Anderson, who were part of the government committee looking at industrial benefits regarding Hydro. At no time was anybody given the im pression they would receive it without tenders, and the discussions and letters were sent on the basis that if tenders came out you would have to specify which your industrial spinoffs would be in the tender in black and white.

I can clearly remember a discussion in my office with my deputy and a representative of CGE and he started to talk about how he would send his purchasing agents out to Manitoba, purchase things, etc., and he was told you put it in the tender. Certainly there were discussions. Now, Mr. Chairman, we talk about the Hydro Board, the Hydro Board that he was referring to today. Yes, the board did discuss the best way to have the possible benefits for the Province of Manitoba, and certainly that was a discussion at all times.

The Minis ter tries · to twist these things around the same as he did the other night when he stood up and said he found notes of a September preliminary budget estimates that made a particular figure and twists that around. He knows full well that when they start budgeting, the preliminary estimates are always high and you work from there. But he wouldn't have the fortitude to get up and say it the right way.

And he's got minutes there and what have you to try and twist around the fact that we were thinking of putting this out without tender, and there was at no time any supplier told that it would be done without tender. Yes, it was discussed, Mr. Chairman. Now, the Minister wasn't here when I reread what Mr. Sch reyer said about the tendering system of the Brown Boveri order. They absolutely fought off CGE and all the pressures to stay with the tender system.

They fought off everybody in the Engin eering Department of Hydro that recommended the problems that they would have with the Russian generators and went to the lowest tender. And I repeat for the Mi nister's presentation what exactly, what was done by the previous government. Mr. Chairman, the Minis ter of Energy gets up and he says in a nice way, well, we got the generators at less than Hydro had estimated what the generators would be. - (In terjection) - How do you know? You didn't tender it. They estimated a price on generators.

General Electric says this is the price, these are the industrial benefits, these are the offsets. And they said, we'll buy it. How do you know you got the best price? As a matter of fact, as one businessman and one large manufacturer in this province said to me just last night, you know, when you offer to pay $10 0 million for something, and you've got an industrial package that's worth 10 million and you didn't tender it, who's to know who's paying the $10 million? And the people of Manitoba could very easily be because that did not go out for tender. Mr. Chairman, they didn't have to ask for 15 tenders.

They didn't have to have it wide open to the whole world. They could have specified the people that they wanted to tender. lt could have been 5, 3, 10 , whatever they wanted. They could have written the specifications as to what they wanted, and they would say right in 592 those specifications, that this is the type of generator we wa nt. We will accept these companies. Those companies can ten�r and you will name your offsets right in the tender, very easy to do and as a matter of fact, has been done by Manitoba Hydro forever and was forced to do it by the NOP Government when they were in power. So, Mr.

Chairman, now we have a situation where Manitoba is an export province. We have now told people that you can negotiate a price instead of having tenders. We have now thrown that whole system out that has given us at least some protection and credibility within this province regarding the tender system, and you have done it. You have now said to people we will negotiate, and you have thrown out your system. Mr. Chairman,_ this is the typical NDP Government.

When I accused them of changing their policies as far as supporting and paying out money to big busine ss, I made it very clear that this absolute hypocrisy of changing policies in the middle of the stream all of a sudden is very hard to understand. And just on that subject the Minis ter of Finance - I read Hansard the other night when he spoke - when he said something about me doing things without authority, etc. I would say to the Minis ter of Finance, read the file -and I emphasize - read the file very carefully and then maybe you'll know what you're talking about. So, Mr.

Chairman, I will tell you, he can come up and he will stand up, and he will take away the mi nutes of Hydro where there was discussion among the board mem bers, and he will talk about how they had discussion as to what was the best way. - (Interjection) - Well, he'll have discussion, and he'll talk about how the board said they had discussion as to what was the best way to have benefits for the Province of Manitoba, but at no time did the government say to Hydro they could do it without tender, that they could leave the tendering policy, and at no time was any company ever told that it would be done without tender.

Now, Mr. Chairman, let the Minis ter get up. I quoted the First Min ister but he's going to be talking away about discussions. He's going to be talking about the previous board that my colleague was on, but he was not going to be able to produce anywhere where our government told the Hydro that they could deviate from the tender system, Mr. Chairman. So, Mr . Chairman, we have now put this province into a vulnerable position.

We have spent $10 0 million of the people's money of this province, and they don't know whether they got the best price or not because you have deviated from something you believed in for years. Go ahead, read it. I know what it says. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honour able Minis ter of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr.

Chairman, I won't take up much time. but I do want to say that there was a decision made by Hydro -not discussions, a decision made - on the basis of a request from the General Manager of Corporate Operations who requested. confirmation of authority to negotiate the supply of turbines and generators for the Limestone Generating Station from Canadian General Electric Company Lim ited and Dominion Engineering Works Limited which is their

subsid iary, an authority to reactivate negotiations on a

schedule necessary to protect a first power date, 1987. That wasn't exactly agreed to. The board discussed it for awhile and this is the resolve: That the corporation be gi ven conditional approval to proceed with negotiations for the supply of turbines and generators for the Limestone Generating Station from Canadian General Electric Comp any Limited and Dominion Engin eering Works Limited on a

schedule necessary to protect the first power date of 1987 subject to discussions with represen tatives of the government relative to pursuing industrial offsets for Manitobans." Okay, that's No. 1. No. 2 - that's the way the negotiations continue. There's no question, you people had your input. No. 3-that's what was happening in 1977, regardless of what happened with the previous turbines. No. 4 - it was in pursuance of an agreement between the Province of Manitoba and the Government of Canada which stated not tendering but negotiation was required for Canadian supplied generators and turbines.

And final ly, No. 5 - the price negotiated was considerably below the estimate provided by Manitoba Hydro in terms of its cost-benefit analysis of the sale to Northern States Power. There is a considerable saving there. No. 6 -we have negotiated -now you're talking about the 10 million -what I think we should keep in mind is, there's a job for a job and that was something we never got. No. 7 - we never got that under that tendering system.

We never once had a job for a job in Manitoba, a job for every job that was created in eastern Canada or elsewhere here in Manitoba and that's what we got out of this. lt's a very good deal for Manitobans. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I say to the Min ister, he talks about discussion, he talks about the board having the right to negotiate. There was never any provision or final decision made not to go out for tender or break the tendering procedure that you people lived with all of the time.

Talking about job for job and your decision, I only say to the Min ister, how do you know you got the best deal, because you didn't put it out for tender? You don't have to take the lowest tender. You can sit down and analyze the tenders and figure out which is the best for Mani toba. You've spent $10 0 million of Manitoba money without tendering. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, I point out: (1) - the previous Progressive Conservative Government continued the negotiations started by Ed Schr eyer in 1977 through to August of 1978 when the item was shut down.

Item (2) -of course you can always go to tender until the last possible moment. Until you sign an agreement, theoretically you can go to tender. We could have gone to tender until we signed the agreement on Janu ary 4, 1985. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, he talks about the Right Honourable Mr.

Schreyer, when he said and was quoted as, "any deviation from open bidding practice would harm the long-standing credibility of the Manitoba 593 Hydro and then result in the withdrawal of competition by Canadian overseas company in future Hy dr o tenders," and you're now telling me that the Honourable Mr. 'Sch reyer had gone back on his word? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to my collea gue the Member for Sturgeon Creek because I think he put some very valuable information. on the record and very important information. Mr.

Chairman, I don't want to take up any undue time, but I do want to ask the Minister responsible for Telephones, the Honourable Minister of Labour I assume it is. I really find it very difficult to believe, Mr. Chairman, and I would want to have an opportunity for him to at least prove me wrong that there are two new fire halls in my constituency in the lnterlake that the Manitoba Telephone System refuses to service with telephone hookups. Mr. Chairman, yes, you answered it. Please, I don't want him to get arrogant about this.

I just want him to understand that similar equipm ent is operating at least in seven or eight other community districts, the most recent one being in La Broquerie. A MEMBER: Where? MR. H. ENNS: La Broquerie. I said it quickl y. I und ers tand, Mr. Chairman, they went thro1,1gh considerable di fficulty again, but that commun ity purchased Motorola equipment mobile units and it is interconnected to the MTS operations In that commun ity. Mr.

Chairman, quite aside from whether or not MTS has its nose out of joint because they wish to promote the sale of their own mobile pieces of equipment, the truth of the matter is -and at least I'm told and I would ask the Min ister to undertake to investigate - I am told that there are at least seven or eight Installations where Motorola equipment is interconnected with Manitoba Telephone System equipment for precisely the same reason.

I would sincerely ask the Mini ster that he undertake to see that the volunteer firefighters of lnwood and Fraserwood who have built their fire halls, who have their trucks ready, who have ordered the Motorola mobile communic ations equipment and now find an intransigent Manitoba Telephone System that says they won't hook up and they won't put telephone service into their system. So I know that Telephones has a long held position whereby they use their monopoly rights, quite frankly, to exclude other equi pment man ufacturers to interconnect.

I was sponsor of a bill In this House that unfortunately needed some further fine tuning and was never proclaimed and I acknowledge that. But that's all history, Mr. Chairman. What I am simply saying is there are situations where the equipment is working satisfactorily, no difficulty, no damage to the system and surely the Min ister can undertake to see that happens. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minis ter of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Chairman, I indicated earlier that the Telephone System had offered telephone service to the fire halls, and that Is not in correct.

Wedne adlly, 3 April, 1115 I am advised that the Telephone System officials met with the Council of the LGD of Armstrong on March 25th, had a full discussion with the LGD at that time, with the council; then they met with the Reeve and a councillor on April 2nd, just the other day. The council indica ted that it un derstood its options, as the MTS reviewed the options with the council, and indicated to the MTS that it would give the matter its consideration and advise the MTS of its decision as to what it wanted to do.

The council also noted that the Telephone System is willing and prepared to meet and provide mutually acceptable commun ication service for the firefighting facilities of these commun ities. Now the Member for Lakeside quite rightly recalls that when he was Min ister and responsible for the Telephone System that the same provisions of the act exist now that existed then. There have been problems about people wanting to attach sophis ticated equipment, including burglar alarm systems, all sorts of devices to the telephone network.

In defence of the corporation's economic interest, successive Min isters and governments have said, no, the act must be protected. The viability of the corporation requi res that you can't have ind iscrimina te use of that electronic highway. So you cannot just arbitrarily attach things to tha t network without the autho rization of the Telephone System. That is the act. That's the law. We didn't create it. This Min ister didn't fashion it. it's there. Now the member quite rightly points out the fact that there are different systems out there.

The Manitoba Telephone System itself has a method that it's prepared to offer and a large numb er of communities in Manitoba have taken up that system. it's worked very well. There is a private organization that is soliciting use of its equipment, and it can work without the use of the Telephone System and that is, it's a radio network. But what that system wants is to connect to the Telephone System, and that is not provided for in the act. it's not being recognized in the past. so that's where it is.

Now this organization has gone to some municip alities and without authorization from the Telephone System, con nected to the Telephone Syst em. Now the honourable member may say, well why doesn't the Min ister take action, cut off their telephone line. do something? Well. that would create grave difficulties. Now the difference that exists is that in the instanc e the hon our able member refers to in the LGD of Armstrong, these were new facilities. There were no telephone hookups.

The LGD was apprised of the fact tha t the MTS offered this service and what the requi rements of the act provided, and that it wasn't open for the Telephone System to put in lines and hook up an attachment that belonged to another competing organization. lt wasn't that they didn't like competit ion. The act and successive Minis ters of the government have maintained that act in force and those regulations in force. So the MTS acted very fairly.

They indicated to the council that if the council wanted - we're waiting to hear what the council decided, they still haven't heard from the council at the time that I last called the MTS staff - but it ind icated that if it were necessary they would install telephone lines in order that those fire halls would have telephone service. But that is not what is being sought. What is being asked of the Telephone System is to install lines <Jnd 594 connect apparatus that is not licensed under the act and they can't do it. ' SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. A.

MACKLING: I hear chatter across the way saying they did it in other places. The MTS did not connect that equipment - (Interjection) - well either the installer connected it or some other persons. but MTS staff whom I questioned said, no, they did not connect that equipment. They did not connect that equipment is the information I have. So those are the facts, Mr. Chairman, and I trust the honourable member appreciates what it is. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order please. The hour is 4:30, time for Private Members' Hour . Call in the Speaker. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Chairman, on a point of order, could you please call the resolution one last time? I believe it may pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: Is there leave to continue? Is that agreed? (Agreed) Are you ready for the question? Resolved that a sum not exceed ing $956,654,520 being 30 percent of the total sums voted as set forth in The Appropriation Act (19 84) be granted to Her Majesty for the fiscal year ending the 31s t day of March, 19 86. MR. CHAIRMAN: Comm ittee rise. Call in the Speaker. The Chairman reported upon the Committee's deli berations to Mr. Speaker and requested leave to sit again. IN SESSION MR.

SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. The Honourable Member for River East. MR. P. EYLER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Member for ln kster, that the report of the committee be received . MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Private Mem bers' Hour. The Honour able Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I believe there is an inclination to dispense with Private Members' Hour so that we can continue with business on the Order Paper. MR. SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have leave? (Agreed) The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr.

Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Min ister of Finance, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Commit tee of Ways and Means to consider of

w.dnnday, 3 April, 1885 the Ways and Means to raise the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Committee to consider of the Ways and Means for raising of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair. COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS INTERIM SUPPLY MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: Committee, come to order. We are considering the resolution respecting Interim Supply . The Member for Emerson. MR. A. ORIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I had problem getting my views on here this afternoon, Mr.

Chairman, and I want to welcome the Min ister of Agriculture back from his duties as a Min ister. I don't know whether he has had a chance to peruse Hansard. I raised the question last night. In view of the disaster that has hit the hog industry, I raised a question with the Minis ter of Finance. and the Min ister of Culture responded to it to some degree. I wanted to know what is the position of this Minis ter in terms of what is happening in the hog industry right now, before we pass the Interim Supply here today, and whether he is contemplating making extra provisions for funding to the hog industry.

The prices have been dropping 10 cents since the announcements of the Americans on an import tariff. I am not concerned and I don't necessarily want to hear from the Minister what is happening at the federal level, I want to hear from this Minis ter. Negotiations are taking place here obviously . I want to hear from the Minis ter what he is going to do in the interim basis right now, whether there is going to be any additional funds being put forward into the hog stabilization program. or whether there is any kind of plan that he has in place to save about 30 percent of the hog fellows who are going to