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June 9, 1987

33rd Parliament, 3rd Session

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Hansard Transcripts

L024 - Tue 9 Jun 1987 / Jeu 9 jun 1987

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

REGIONAL MUNICIPALITY OF OTTAWA-CARLETON

SCHOOL FACILITIES

MISSING CHILDREN

CROP INSURANCE

PART-TIME EMPLOYMENT

INTERNATIONAL PLOWING MATCH AND FARM MACHINERY SHOW

ACHIEVEMENT AWARDS

VISITOR

MEMBERS' ANNIVERSARIES

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

DOMESTIC WORKERS

ACQUIRED IMMUNE DEFICIENCY SYNDROME

RESPONSES

DOMESTIC WORKERS

ACQUIRED IMMUNE DEFICIENCY SYNDROME

DOMESTIC WORKERS

ORAL QUESTIONS

AUTOMOBILE INDUSTRY

ORDER-IN-COUNCIL APPOINTMENTS

CONVERSION OF RENTAL ACCOMMODATION

MINING SAFETY

ORDER-IN-COUNCIL APPOINTMENTS

HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION

CONFLICT-OF-INTEREST GUIDELINES

COMFORT ALLOWANCES

FUND-RAISING

PLANT CLOSURES

TRANSIT SERVICES

ONTARIO HOUSING CORP.

WASTE MANAGEMENT

NONSMOKERS' PROTECTION

HERITAGE LANGUAGES

DOMESTIC WORKERS

WESTERN COAL

TRANSIT SERVICES

FIREFIGHTING EQUIPMENT

USE OF TIME IN QUESTION PERIOD

PETITION

DIALYSIS UNIT

ORDERS OF THE DAY

PAY EQUITY ACT / LOI DE 1987 SUR L'ÉQUITÉ SALARIALE

NOTICE OF DISSATISFACTION

PAY EQUITY ACT / LOI DE 1987 SUR L'ÉQUITÉ SALARIALE (CONTINUED / CONTINUÉ

E) CENTRE FOR LABOUR STUDIES

The House met at 1:30 p.m.

Prayers.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS

REGIONAL MUNICIPALITY OF OTTAWA-CARLETON

Mr. Mitchell: I regret the fact that, when I should really be speaking on positive notes, I must use this time today to condemn the Liberal government and in fact two ministers of the crown for their lack of concern in Ottawa-Carleton, either their interference in things that are out of their realm of responsibility or their noninvolvement.

I refer particularly to the Minister of Education (Mr. Conway), who blatantly interfered in due process when he involved himself in an Ontario Municipal Board decision as it respected Nepean and Goulbourn in their education apportionment. He was asked for one simple thing -- to provide a list of all the municipalities which are suffering the same financial burden as Nepean and Goulbourn -- but to this point he has refused to do the same.

Then we have the Minister of Energy (Mr. Kerrio) who, although he has been given alternative proposals for the Bridlewood Hydro corridor, refuses even to look at them. He is seriously ignoring the fact that the Ministry of Education is supporting the building of an elementary school quite adjacent to this hydro corridor, where the people are concerned about the effect of health by the radiation from those lines. The minister is aware that there are alternative proposals which appear to be able to meet the demands of all, and he refuses to get himself involved and address those issues.

This is the sort of approach that is shown by ministers of the crown in their attitudes towards eastern Ontario.

SCHOOL FACILITIES

Mr. Allen: Under paragraph 10(1)9 of the Education Act, the minister has the power to prescribe accommodation and equipment of buildings and the arrangement of premises, and throughout parts of the act the obligation of the boards, under the act administered by the minister, is clearly to provide adequate accommodation for pedagogical purposes.

Between 1967 and 1973, 29 so-called SEF schools -- study of educational facilities schools -- were constructed in the Metro Toronto area on an open plan, generally with no windows, wholly artificial light and so-called controlled atmosphere. Over the years, a huge list of complaints has accompanied the experience of these schools, leading to very serious questions as to their suitability as a learning environment.

A combination of poor artificial lighting balance, ventilation problems, noise levels, colour schemes, etc., combines to produce headaches, nausea, lethargy, irritability and a general psychological malaise among students and teachers. This is made worse by problems of lack of storage of a personal kind for pupils and staff and inadequate conditions such as carpeting that harbours infestations of various kinds.

These problems have been recognized at one or two of these schools. I suggest that the minister undertake, as he never has, a survey of them to examine their suitability as learning environments and to support both the boards and schools in question in attempts to renovate and improve the situation.

MISSING CHILDREN

Mr. McGuigan: I wish to step out of character and do a little bit of bragging. I am speaking in this instance about my endeavour to have established a better system for preventing, identifying, tracing and finding missing children.

The members will recall my research and report of the spring of 1985, Missing Children, and my subsequent resolution, which presently sits with the standing committee on social development and which I hope will soon be addressed. In both, I expressed my belief that a comprehensive, national missing-children registry should be established using the Canadian Police Information Centre.

A year ago, I was very pleased to participate with Ontario's Solicitor General (Mr. Keyes) as Perrin Beatty announced the federal government's initiative to reduce this serious social problem. Paramount among these was the commencing of a missing-children registry using the CPIC system, exactly as I had recommended.

Just recently, the first national statistics were released by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. The benefits of this registry are becoming even more apparent. Drawing on these statistics, the government and private sector now are developing in tandem a better understanding of the nature and extent of this problem as it exists in Canada. The policies, policing, reporting and community responses now can be tailored to specifics and trends identified using comprehensive and accurate data.

CROP INSURANCE

Mr. Andrewes: On May 27, during statements, I called on the Minister of Agriculture and Food (Mr. Riddell) to release the report of the Crop Insurance Review Committee and to demonstrate some commitment to implement the recommendations of that report.

In response to my statement, the minister tabled the report on June 1, a report that contains a number of thoughtful and substantive recommendations. These recommendations deserve serious consideration by the government, but the budget of the Treasurer (Mr. Nixon) failed even to verbally acknowledge the existence of the report, let alone an allocation of funds for implementation.

Last Friday, we witnessed another major event in the life of the Minister of Agriculture and Food when he hosted agricultural leaders at a luncheon in Lincoln riding to announce that he had appointed Gordon Hill to chair the Crop Insurance Commission of Ontario, an appointment we would applaud. Although my invitation to this bunfest likely got lost in the mail, the taxpayers should know that they will foot the bill for this occasion, which incidentally provided an opportunity for the Liberal candidate in Lincoln to meet with his would-be electors at the taxpayers' expense.

PART-TIME EMPLOYMENT

Mr. Philip: Over the past 12 years, I have asked the Minister of Government Services to look into the exploitation of part-time and temporary workers by the Ontario government. While various Ministers of Labour have given lipservice to the problems faced by the uncertainty of part-time and temporary employees in the private sector, none the less the public sector commits exactly the same sin.

I would like to read a

section of a letter from a constituent of mine:

"Over the past nine years, I have been working for the government of Ontario in various ministries shown in the attached letter, continuously without a break in my services, but I have not yet been made a permanent, classified employee. At the moment, I am not eligible for any of the pension or other benefits the government gives to its employees even though I have worked for nine years for the Ontario government.

"I will be 53 years old this July and would like to prepare for my retirement. I am a married man and have two sons, but I cannot prepare for my retirement with this uncertainty."

This gentleman started to work on February 1, 1978, and has worked for four ministries, including the Ministry of Transportation and Communications, the Ministry of Colleges and Universities, the Metro Toronto Housing Authority and the Ministry of the Solicitor General.

If these employees are qualified to work for this long a time, they are qualified to be permanent full-time employees.

INTERNATIONAL PLOWING MATCH AND FARM MACHINERY SHOW

Mr. McKessock: I have a very important invitation to give to all the members in the Legislature. It will appear in their mailboxes tomorrow.

As the MPP representing Grey riding, it gives me great pleasure to invite members to the 1987 International Plowing Match and Farm Machinery Show, which will be held from September 15 to September 19 near Meaford. The match will be held on the farm of John and Velma Lowe in St. Vincent township, Grey county.

MPPs and MPs are invited to participate in the opening day luncheon at 11:45 a.m., the parade and the ploughing competition, which takes place immediately following the official opening on September 15.

Whether members have participated in the international ploughing match before or whether this is the first time, I know they will enjoy it. They do not have to be experienced ploughmen or ploughwomen. I might give a special invitation to the women to attend this year, since some of us know that women are very important in agriculture as they are our agricultural managers at home.

I would like members to respond immediately to John Fennel, who is the general manager of the International Plowing Match and Farm Machinery Show. I look forward to seeing all members at the match this fall.

ACHIEVEMENT AWARDS

Mr. Partington: On April 10, the Minister of Tourism and Recreation (Mr. Eakins) sent out a press release announcing more than 1,800 recipients of last year's Achievement Awards for amateur athletes in Ontario. In this announcement the minister praised these athletes. I could not agree with him more for his praise.

Each member of the House will have received a package including the names of the recipients and the sport in which they excelled. The media also received this information. The minister has notified everyone, it seems, except the athletes. To date, no letter or announcement has been sent to these fine athletes to inform them that their hard work and accomplishments have been recognized and that they are the chosen recipients of the Achievement Awards. Almost two months have passed since the media were informed. When can the athletes expect to be notified?

VISITOR

Mr. Speaker: If members would allow, I would like to draw their attention to a guest in the members' gallery, Paul Blundy, a former member of this Legislature for Sarnia. Welcome.

MEMBERS' ANNIVERSARIES

Hon. Mr. Van Horne: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the unanimous consent of the House to make a very brief statement related to your recognition of Mr. Blundy.

Mr. Speaker: Is there unanimous agreement?

Agreed to.

Hon. Mr. Van Horne: I thank the members for allowing this.

On June 9, 1977, the electorate of Ontario chose its 31st Parliament. Fifteen of the members elected at that point in time as new members or returned members are still here. In addition to that, we have Mr. Blundy.

I would like to recognize the members who are still here in the persons of the member for Durham West (Mr. Ashe), the member for Ottawa West (Mr. Baetz), the member for St. Catharines (Mr. Bradley), the member for Hamilton Mountain (Mr. Charlton), the member for Windsor-Riverside (Mr. D. S. Cooke), the member for Durham East (Mr. Cureatz), the member for Waterloo North (Mr. Epp), the member for Fort William (Mr. Hennessy), the member for Wellington-Dufferin-Peel (Mr. J. M. Johnson), the member for Armourdale (Mr. McCaffrey), the member for Kent-Elgin (Mr. McGuigan), the member for Cochrane South (Mr.

Pope), the member for Carleton-Grenville (Mr. Sterling), the member for Peterborough (Mr. Turner), who was first elected in 1971 and then missed out in 1975 but returned in 1977, and finally, yours truly, the member for London North.

As you can see, Mr. Speaker, the class of 1977 was a vintage year.

Mr. Harris: On behalf of our party, I too want to congratulate the members. I am not sure it is necessary for me to read them all into the record again, as I was prepared to do.

Hon. Mr. Nixon: What are you going to do for a speech if you don't?

Mr. Harris: That may be true. As the member for London -- is it London South?

Hon. Mr. Van Horne: London North.

Mr. Harris: London North. South, north -- I understand there are all kinds of problems in London these days.

As one who has been here slightly over six years, and many days it feels like 16 or 26 years, I can appreciate how long 10 years is in the life of an elected member of this great Legislative Assembly. In my opinion, it is worth 20 or 30 years of average work when one properly represents his or her constituency and the people of Ontario in the capacities that he or she must do in this Legislative Assembly and I congratulate all of them.

I might add that June 9, 1955, was also a very famous date in the history of this province and certainly as part of the history, heritage and legacy of my party. That was also the day 32 years ago when Allan Grossman was first elected to the great riding of St. Andrew-St. Patrick, which I understand is now being done away with through redistribution. It may be the last opportunity to mention that great riding. I mention that as well in my congratulations. He was a member who served this Legislature well for 20 years. I am sure those members who have been here for 10 years will appreciate what 20 years must be like. We offer our congratulations.

As I was listening to the list being read, I do not think there is one name from any of the parties I could suggest who has not worked long and hard and very diligently on behalf of his constituents. Other than those whom we know have felt 10 years is long enough, I am sure they will all be back representing their constituents after the great event that we expect will take place in 1989 or so.

Mr. McClellan: On behalf of the New Democratic Party, I also want to offer our congratulations to the 15 surviving members of the class of 1977. I think that was my favourite election of all four of the elections l have been in. Members will recall the issue in the election was the difference in the rent control guideline, I believe, of less than two per cent. The Premier felt that was a matter that required a decision of the people as to whether the rent review guideline would be eight per cent or six per cent. As usual, the Liberals could not make up their minds between eight per cent and six per cent, so they came down on the side of seven per cent.

June is my favourite month for an election. I regret that the Premier (Mr. Peterson) did not have the courage to have an election in June, which we were all expecting. Premier Davis was a man of conviction and was not afraid to consult the people, unlike the current Premier.

The 1977 election not only gave us the 15 illustrious survivors we are honouring today but also, I believe, saw the birth of the Brampton charter. Whatever happened to the Brampton charter?

Hon. Mr. Nixon: That was two trees for one.

Mr. McClellan: Two trees for one and the wonderful slogan "Keep the promise," which still applies, I may say. Finally, I must note that the winner of that election was Stuart Smith. I want to congratulate in particular the member for Windsor-Riverside and the member for Hamilton Mountain, who have both made an outstanding contribution in our caucus. To all the other members of the class of 1977, our congratulations and best wishes.

Mr. Speaker: The member for Wellington-Dufferin-Peel on a point of what?

Mr. J. M. Johnson: Personal privilege.

Mr. Speaker: Personal privilege? I will try it.

Mr. J. M. Johnson: My very good friend the member for London North read into the record that I was elected with the class of 1977. It was really the class of 1975. I would not bring it to your attention, sir, except the information was provided by the Clerk at the table and I wonder if my pension is slated in the same category.

Mr. Rae: Why is that man thinking about his pension? He is running again.

Mr. Rowe: And he'll be in cabinet next time.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

STATEMENTS BY THE MINISTRY

DOMESTIC WORKERS

Hon. Mr. Wrye: I wish to announce today that on October 1, 1987, new regulations under the Employment Standards Act providing enhanced working conditions for domestics and nannies will take effect.

The new regulations place these employees on the same legal footing as other wage earners in two key respects: overtime pay and the minimum wage. The measures also seek to clarify and regularize working relationships between employers and domestics. They set new requirements for record-keeping and written particulars of employment.

It is estimated that almost 20,000 people are employed as live-in domestics in Ontario. Virtually all are women, and virtually all are involved in the care of children. Many are newcomers to Canada and a great number are employed in domestic situations as a condition of federal immigration visas. Many also belong to the province's visible minority groups.

We are dealing here with a sizeable segment of the working population which is, for various reasons, economically vulnerable. Added to this is the fact that prior to 1981, domestics had been excluded from substantive protection under the Employment Standards Act.

In 1981, for the first time, full-time domestics and nannies were brought under the protection of minimum wage provisions and were granted protection for vacations, holidays and weekly free periods. More recently, full-time domestics living outside the household were also included in provisions for overtime payment, although live-in domestics were not.

These changes were welcome, but they left some very large gaps. Domestic workers were still not enjoying some of the fundamental protections enjoyed by other wage earners in Ontario, and I am sorry to say that reports of substandard working conditions continued. With these new regulations being filed today, many of those gaps will be filled.

The new standards will apply for the most part only to those regarded as full-time domestics; that is, to those employed more than 24 hours a week and to nannies qualified by special training in child care.

One of the key changes has to do with overtime payments. Under the present regulation, domestic employees living outside the household must be paid a minimum of $6.53 for each hour worked beyond 44 hours a week. On the other hand, live-in domestics and nannies are exempt from overtime protection of any kind.

Starting in October, all full-time live-in domestics, full-time live-out domestics and nannies will be subject to the same overtime provision. This calls for overtime pay at the rate of one and one half times the regular hourly rate for each hour worked in excess of 44 hours a week.

Alternatively, the employer and employee may agree to compensation in the form of time off at the rate of one and one half hours off for each overtime hour worked.

This provision is intended to give recognition to overtime worked by domestic employees and at the same time to discourage the scheduling of excessively long hours.

I would like to point out that full-time live-in sitters have been specifically included in these overtime provisions. Previously, they were not included and this left room for abuse. It was found, for example, that the appellation of "sitter" has sometimes been applied to general domestic employees as a means of evading basic employment obligations.

This loophole has now been closed. Live-in sitters perform a valuable child care function in the home, and the government believes that they should be placed on the same footing as other domestics with regard to overtime pay and the other new provisions I am outlining today. Sitters will also be entitled to the weekly free periods which currently apply to other live-in domestics.

Other key changes in the regulations relate to the minimum wage.

Under the existing standards, the minimum rate for domestics can be hourly, daily, weekly or monthly. This discriminates against employees working longer hours. An employee might find herself working 10 hours in a day, for example, and still receive only the daily minimum based on eight hours.

Under the new regulation, only the general hourly minimum wage will apply to domestics. We are also including live-out domestics who work 24 hours or less in a week. For the first time, these part-timers will be entitled to the minimum wage.

A minimum wage based exclusively on an hourly rate ensures that domestics are compensated for each and every hour worked.

To enforce these provisions, the new regulations will require that employers keep daily and weekly records showing the number of hours worked by employees. In this, they are not being asked to do more than is required of other employers.

As a further measure, employers will be required to furnish such employees with written job particulars. These must specify regular hours of work, including starting and finishing times, as well as the hourly rate of pay. Since there may be some difficulty in distinguishing between working and nonworking time, especially for live-in employees, the new regulations will set out a clarification of nonworking time.

On one issue, maximum hours of work for domestics, we have decided to defer action for the moment. A resolution of this question will await the findings of the Task Force on Hours of Work and Overtime. The second phase of the task force report will deal with domestic employment and is expected this fall.

In the meantime, the new overtime provisions will decrease the possibility that employers will make excessive demands on domestic employees with regard to hours of work.

A factor we have had to contend with in making these changes is that live-in domestics are in a very special position. They are not like factory workers who can punch in and then punch out at the end of the day. Their work does not easily lend itself to precise schedules and quitting times, especially where the care of children is involved.

At the same time, domestic employees have as much right as anyone else to adequate wages, to extra compensation for extra effort and to free time. It is our intention in framing these regulations to ensure that they be afforded these rights to the fullest possible extent and, within the limits imposed upon us by the very special nature of the case, I submit that we have succeeded.

ACQUIRED IMMUNE DEFICIENCY SYNDROME

Hon. Mr. Elston: Members will be aware that Monday, June 8, marked the beginning of an AIDS Awareness Week in Toronto.

Acquired immune deficiency syndrome is a serious world health problem. From a provincial perspective, Ontario accounts for almost 38 per cent of all reported AIDS cases in Canada. The disease represents a genuine threat to every community in Ontario, and this government has responded on every front.

We have provided over $7 million in support of various research, education and counselling initiatives, most notably the following: the establishment of a human immunodeficiency virus isolation lab, the provision of azidothymidine free of charge to AIDS patients participating in ongoing treatment trials; and the establishment of Casey House, a residence for people in the advanced stages of the disease.

Over the last few years, the emphasis of our AIDS public education efforts has been to provide accurate and timely information to the people of Ontario about the basic characteristics of the disease.

Since then, our information and education requirements have changed. While we must still reinforce the message that AIDS is not spread by casual contact, we must also place increased emphasis on ensuring that people are aware of the real risks and what they can do to protect themselves. Finally, we must satisfy the increased requirement for counselling and support services for people who have been exposed to the virus or developed the disease.

The Ontario Public Education Panel on AIDS, OPEPA, has recommended that the ministry now encourage the development of community-based organizations to provide a broad range of education, counselling and support programs.

In the spirit of AIDS Awareness Week, and to update the members of this House on my ministry's support of AIDS-related initiatives, I am pleased to announce that the Ministry of Health has set aside $420,000 in funding for community-based AIDS education programs and counselling and support initiatives.

Community-based efforts are among the most effective ways to rally the energies and dedication of volunteers and to get the AIDS message across to the public at large, including those not being reached in schools, by fact sheets, newspaper articles or other more traditional sources of health information and education. The AIDS Committee of Toronto, ACT, which the ministry already funds, is a good example of this.

My ministry is requesting program proposals from local AIDS organizations, health agencies, citizens' groups and other organizations around the province wishing to offer such services in the communities they serve.

OPEPA will review the submissions and make funding recommendations. District health councils will also have an opportunity to review the proposals and make comments and recommendations.

The government views this funding initiative as an important new component in its overall strategy against AIDS. By developing knowledge, expertise and leadership at the grass-roots level and by providing people the opportunity to discuss AIDS-related issues in familiar settings, we are creating opportunities for education that will have a positive impact upon attitudes, behaviour and the health status of the people of Ontario.

Hon. Mr. Conway: I would like to join my colleague the Minister of Health in making an additional announcement with respect to the whole AIDS question.

The acquired immune deficiency syndrome, or AIDS, as it is more commonly known, is a serious medical and social concern in Canada and around the world. To date, there is no known cure.

The challenge facing Ontario, which we are particularly mindful of during AIDS Awareness Week, is to educate ourselves and our children about the risks of AIDS. It is up to us, as parents, educators and community leaders, to give young people the information required to make responsible decisions about health matters and to help them avoid the AIDS virus.

To meet that challenge, I stated in this chamber in January that AIDS education would be mandatory in Ontario schools beginning in the 1987-88 school year. I would like to announce that the Ontario Ministry of Education is meeting that commitment and is today releasing a draft curriculum document that will form the basis of AIDS education in our Ontario schools.

This means that AIDS education will be a mandatory unit of study in the health education program for students in grades 7 and 8 and for those students in the secondary school health education program.

This document will be circulated within the next few days to teachers and to school administrators for validation and response. Their comments and suggestions will be incorporated into a final document, which will be distributed to our Ontario schools by this fall. The AIDS education programs will be introduced as part of the curriculum early in the new school year.

By making this document available, it is our aim to help teachers develop teaching strategies to better inform students about the disease and to make students aware of ways in which it is transmitted and how it can be prevented.

The draft AIDS education document also, and we feel this is important, stresses that parents must be made aware of the general content and purpose of this program, and it suggests that school administrators consider involving parents in a course covering the same subject matter as the one given to their children.

I should also point out that parents or guardians of a student, or a student who is 18 years of age or older, who believe that any component of a physical or health education program is in conflict with their beliefs may apply for an exemption from such a component.

I believe this document will be an important part of our co-operative efforts to combat this deadly disease. If we act now, we can save lives. If we teach our children to make responsible decisions, we will save lives.

RESPONSES

DOMESTIC WORKERS

Mr. Gordon: I would like to respond to the statement made by the Minister of Labour (Mr. Wrye) on the matter of overtime wages. I must commend the minister, but I must also say that we on this side of the House are disappointed that he chose to ignore the plight of perhaps 20,000 people who are domestics who live in in this province, who are immigrants and who, perhaps because of language barriers or fear because they have just come to this country, are not always able to speak out for their rights.

It was our hope the minister would speak out for their rights and would see that a limit would be put on the maximum number of hours these people would be working in homes. Surely, the minister is aware of the pressures that are being placed on these people. Most of them are women and most of them do not have the kind of background and experience that allows them to protest. I hope the minister will not take much more time to make a decision in their favour.

ACQUIRED IMMUNE DEFICIENCY SYNDROME

Mr. Andrewes: The Minister of Health (Mr. Elston), in his statement regarding acquired immune deficiency syndrome and AIDS support, failed to mention that it was badgering by the opposition in this House and in the estimates that certainly brought about the kind of funding he is speaking of, particularly to the AIDS Committee of Toronto.

It was this opposition, and particularly the member for St. George (Ms. Fish), who brought to the minister's attention the desperate needs of a group working to fund Casey House. It was only through the efforts of the opposition that at the 11th hour the Minister of Health saw fit to provide the funding necessary to make Casey House a reality.

The Minister of Education (Mr. Conway), in his add-on to the Minister of Health's statement, failed to mention that it was a question by the official opposition that prompted him to leave this House, and in spite of a lack of consultation and in spite of a lack of preparedness, spontaneously announce that AIDS education would be taught in the classrooms of the province.

This disease and the public concern, the public fear around this disease, far outweigh public knowledge. Until a cure for AIDS can be found, prevention is the most important component in a health policy that will beat this dreaded disease. I trust that this announcement and the announcement of the Minister of Health herald a new attitude of this government towards what many describe as the greatest health threat of this decade.

Ms. Fish: I rise to respond to the announcement by the Minister of Education respecting the AIDS education curriculum. I hope it is indeed a curriculum, not simply a support document but a clear direction on the AIDS education that will be given in our schools. The minister's statement indicated that AIDS education would be mandatory and went on to speak of it as a component within health or physical education subjects.

Within that frame, none the less, the minister provides the option for students to be withdrawn from that program. This is not a discussion about sexuality. This is not a discussion about issues that should confront or make difficult personal beliefs or values. This is a discussion and an instruction about the health of our people, dealing with a deadly disease that is at epidemic proportions within our province and across North America. It must be dealt with in a clear and direct fashion by reaching our students.

It is my sincere hope, and our hope on this side, that in reviewing the responses to this document, the minister will reconsider the designation of "support document" and, as he indicated early today, make clear that this is curriculum; and similarly will re-examine the loophole provided for the withdrawal of students from education on this matter, so critical to their health and physical wellbeing.

Mr. Rae: AIDS is, without question, the public health challenge of our time. When the history of this period is written, I think it will clearly show that the political system has fallen well behind the extent of the problem and has also fallen behind public readiness not only to discuss the problem and to be aware of it but also to deal with it.

I would say to the Minister of Education that perhaps the following words, taken from page 14 of the draft curriculum, should become part of a general public education campaign which needs to spread very much beyond our school system. The draft curriculum says: "AIDS is not spread by casual contact. A person cannot get AIDS from a playground, a public washroom, swimming pool, a public telephone, food, drinking fountains, hugs and so on."

It is extremely important that much of the public misconception about what this horrendous virus is and how it is transmitted needs to be dealt with and tackled head on by government.

We also need to recognize, as the curriculum does, that if we look at the history of AIDS, a relatively recent history, particularly if we look at the experience now in Africa and some other countries, AIDS is not in any sense a disease that is confined to the homosexual population. It is not the gay plague, as it has been so wrongly described. It is in fact a virus which is spread by sexual contact and it is a virus which can spread by means of heterosexual contact between men and women as easily and as readily as it can spread between men and men. That is worth pointing out and worth our talking about in a very frank way.

When it comes to how AIDS can be prevented, the curriculum document states on page 69: "Sexual abstinence is the most effective means of prevention of the spread of AIDS....If abstinence is not practiced, the use of a latex condom with spermicide containing nonoxynol-9 can provide some protection against the human immunodeficiency virus.''

This may not be the time or the opportunity for us to discuss this at length. I just think it is unwise if abstinence and the preaching of abstinence becomes the substance or the core of the government's approach and the public education approach with respect to AIDS.

If one looks back at the 19th-century experience with syphilis and other venereal diseases and the tremendous public health campaign that was necessary in order to begin to stop the spread of those publicly transmitted diseases, one will find that the beginning of the campaign was the preaching of morality and of abstinence; it was only when the experiences of the First and Second World Wars finally came into play and people realized the extent of the problem that the films and the work of public health no longer focused on the question of abstinence but focused on the effective means of prevention.

Because, if I may say so, preaching morality is not going to work. It is not going to solve the problem. It is teaching effective prevention that is going to solve the problem. It seems to me that is something the government is going to have to face up to head on.

Not enough is being done. There is still too much reliance on volunteers. There is an AIDS Committee of Toronto, but there are other committees outside Toronto which are not being publicly supported at the present time. We have a long way to go to face up to the extent and the severity of this problem. It is time we all started talking about it and expressed a willingness to talk about it and a willingness to deal with this very serious disease which affects far too many people and is spreading far too quickly.

DOMESTIC WORKERS

Mr. Mackenzie: We welcome the new protection for domestics that is involved in the change in regulations we have before us today. We have fought long and hard for these changes for domestics, working closely with the International Coalition to End Domestics' Exploitation.

We do have difficulty with the option of time and a half in lieu of overtime if agreed between the parties, because we know that the bargaining power is not going to be with the domestic workers. We also have concern with the lack of maximum hours in this legislation and the referral to the Task Force on Hours of Work and Overtime. I sometimes wonder whether that task force is ever going to report, whether this House is going to see its report or whether it will report only to the minister. That is a serious concern to us.

We want to see the regulations before we make any further comments on this, because if there is not a change in legislation and there is not the coverage under the Labour Relations Act we want that as well.

ORAL QUESTIONS

AUTOMOBILE INDUSTRY

Mr. Pope: My question is to the Premier. Could the Premier indicate to this House and to the people of Ontario what his belief is with respect to the overcapacity of the automotive industry in Canada and in this province in terms of the number of cars, jobs and plants, and whether he thinks it is an immediate economic challenge for Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Peterson: The question of the management of the automotive industry is a major concern of this government and has been for preceding governments as well. There are a number of analysts looking at the industry in North America now and, indeed, at the world-wide ramifications. They are looking ahead and wondering what the correct and appropriate response will be.

I should tell the honourable member that one of the advantages we enjoy in Ontario is that our unit cost of production is substantially below that of the United States, and we expect that competitive position to be maintained for a long period of time. That being said, we have seen a major down-sizing of some of the productive capacities. General Motors has closed down 11 factories in the United States, but at the same time, interestingly enough, it has put into place in Oshawa the largest part of its sector investment ever in Canada, some $2 billion, to keep it competitive and keep it growing.

We have a number of concerns which relate to our national automotive policy, particularly with regard to imports from the Pacific Rim countries. The minister has shared those views with M. Côté; I have shared them with the Prime Minister. We are hoping that the federal government will be coming forward very quickly with a comprehensive automotive strategy with respect to imports from the Asian countries.

I should tell my honourable friend that I have met extensively with all people concerned in this matter, be it the Canadian Auto Workers leadership, the leadership of the assemblers or the automotive parts manufacturers. I think we have created a clear position to take to the federal government and I hope it will respond in the not-too-distant future.

Mr. Pope: The Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology (Mr. O'Neil) indicated in the House on June 3 that the government had undertaken a study. Could the Premier indicate to the House now whether that study indicates what others have shown, that is that there is a clear indication of an overcapacity in two and a half years of five million cars, putting 285,000 jobs at risk in the province? Do the internal studies of the government verify that number?

Hon. Mr. Peterson: I am not in a position to verify that, but I can go back to my previous answer and say that there are concerns with the competitiveness in the long term. We think structurally we are in a very good position. Obviously, we are concerned about any changes in the auto pact. As the member will know, there are some that are bringing pressures to bear on that.

We are being vigilant. We are trying to extend the national policy into an international policy in that regard. I can assure my honourable friend that if he asked people in the automotive industry, be it on the labour side, the CAW or the various manufacturers, they would tell him that the Ontario government not only has been very understanding and very co-operative but also has advanced their cause with great determination.

Mr. Pope: I do not understand how the Premier can say on the one hand that this is an important industry, an important issue confronting Ontario now and, on the other hand, have no idea what his internal studies show in terms of overcapacity. How many jobs are at risk?

His Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology said on June 4 that he and his government were working closely with labour and the federal government to make sure there was not an overcapacity in this province. Can he explain what that means? Is he closing plants? Is he laying people off? What is he planning now? His minister said it.

Hon. Mr. Peterson: The member always comes up with these strange questions that are very tough to interpret. But no, the answer is we are not closing any plants. We on this side of the House do not close plants; we open plants.

ORDER-IN-COUNCIL APPOINTMENTS

Mr. Andrewes: My question is to the Premier. Will he tell the House the position, responsibilities and employer of Heather Peterson?

Hon. Mr. Peterson: She is paid by the party so as not to give rise to any kind of suspicion the member might have -- and I have some understanding of his kind of mind -- and she works in my office under the direct responsibility of Mr. Ashworth.

Mr. Andrewes: Last week, on May 31, we read in the Toronto Star that Heather Peterson is "the loyal lieutenant who gets to hand out the plum jobs at Queen's Park." Does the Premier consider it appropriate that the person directly responsible for the appointment of hundreds of people to agencies, boards and commissions across this province is accountable not to the Premier, not to his cabinet, but to the president of the Liberal Party of Ontario? Does he think that is appropriate?

Hon. Mr. Peterson: She is accountable to Mr. Ashworth and directly to me in that regard. She is paid by the Liberal Party so that members will not stand up in this House and say there is some kind of nepotism at work. My friend cannot have it both ways.

Mr. Gillies: Where is her accountability to Management Board? Where does she appear in the estimates? How can you have a partisan handing out government jobs?

Hon. Mr. Kerrio: You have to be kidding.

Mr. Callahan: Your tongue should burn out, Phil.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order. I would remind all members that some of the members would like to ask questions.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order, the member for Middlesex (Mr. Reycraft).

Mr. Andrewes: We are not questioning the quality of the individual. We are not questioning her performance. We are not questioning her capability. We are not questioning the quality of her recommendations. What we are questioning is the propriety of an employee of the Liberal Party of Ontario, responsible and accountable to the executive of the Liberal Party of Ontario, playing a direct role in the appointment of individuals holding very responsible positions on agencies, boards and commissions in the province.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Andrewes: Will the Premier table all the information surrounding the employment of Heather Peterson so that the standing committee on the Legislative Assembly --

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Andrewes: I will wait, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker: Question.

Mr. Andrewes: I want to ask the Premier if he will table all the information surrounding the employment of Heather Peterson so that the Legislative Assembly committee might investigate the propriety of this employment.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Hon. Mr. Peterson: She does not make any appointments. The executive council makes the appointments. Maybe the member will want to tell a number of his honourable colleagues who come calling on her regularly looking for appointments to stop doing so.

Mr. Gillies: We would probably just replace the whole civil service with Liberal hacks if we followed your logic.

Mr. Speaker: Order. There have been two questions. Now it is time for the third question.

CONVERSION OF RENTAL ACCOMMODATION

Mr. Rae: I have a question for the Minister of Housing. I would like to ask him some questions about the Renterprise program. The minister will recall he announced it in December 1985. It was originally announced as a $75-million program to produce rental housing in the province.

I wonder if the minister can answer two questions. Can he tell us how many units have been built or are planned to be built under the Renterprise program? Can he tell us if any of these units have been converted to condominiums, or has the Ministry of Housing been made aware of any plans to convert to condominiums?

Hon. Mr. Curling: The Renterprise program, as the member indicates, had a target of 5,000 units. As I explained to the honourable member yesterday, we advertised those. Requests for applications came in and so far we have had 3,643. The response was very good.

Some of the people who have applied have indicated they would rather not go through the Renterprise program; they would rather go on their own. This is a good indication, because these are the same private people who have said they would not build rental units at all. Here is the private sector saying it will go on its own without any government assistance.

When we saw that the 5,000 units were not achieved because of those people who went on their own, we sent out another notice for people to apply again. We had a second call on that. That was done and it was also successful.

In the second part of the question, the member asked if there were any conversions. The applications specifically stated that was quite possible. They may first start in the rental program and then convert later to condominiums. Those were considered.

Mr. Rae: I am glad the minister has told us that of 5,000 units expected to be built, some 3,600 are in the works. Already he is short there. Is the minister aware that his own ministry has told us that of those 3,600 units, the developers of 2,353 units have indicated to the Ministry of Housing that they intend to register their units as condominiums?

I wonder if the minister can explain why the taxpayers of Ontario are subsidizing builders who are not producing rental housing; they are producing condominiums in Ontario. They are not producing geared-to-income housing; they are producing condominiums for the rich and famous.

Why are the taxpayers of Ontario getting ripped off in this way when there are people who are living in basements in Ontario because the Liberal government has not had the courage to introduce an affordable housing program since it was elected two years ago?

Hon. Mr. Curling: That is not the case at all. The agreement was that the Renterprise program agreed that they can be registered as condominiums and converted to condominiums at some time down the road. They are being rented, to be affordable, under that condition.

We indicated we would put 6,700 government-assisted, nonprofit units on the market and we have exceeded that. To say that we are not honouring our commitment is not showing the facts properly at all.

Mr. Rae: As I said in the House yesterday, even according to the minister's own estimates, the shortfall is as much as 13,000 units compared to what he said was required. What he has ended up doing is giving money to developers to build condominiums. That is what Liberal money has gone for, that is what taxpayers' money has gone for, and it is unconscionable when we consider the needs of people who are living in basements.

I wonder if the minister can comment on the one case I would like to bring to his attention. It is a case in my own constituency, and I have several others for the minister if he is not satisfied.

Catherine Young has two children, who are 14 years and nine months. She receives family benefits of $803 a month. She lives in the basement of her mother's house. Her children sleep next to the water tank. She has been on the Ontario Housing waiting list for nine months. She has medical reports showing that her living conditions have resulted in anxiety and depression. She is joining over 7,000 other families on the waiting list in Ontario, in Toronto, and she has been told she cannot expect to get housing soon because she does not have sufficient points.

There are literally thousands of cases like Mrs. Young's. Just how does the minister intend to deal with this instead of giving money to people who are putting up condominiums in Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Curling: For years there was a backlog of neglect, but the honourable leader expects me to have solved this problem over 18 months. The honourable leader of the third party also expects that as soon as we announce and we have committed and put funds in the direction of solving these problems, these units will be built overnight. With all the statistics he has tried to show in the House each day, he must understand that we are committed to this cause. In 1987, we have shown that it is not only rental units that have been built but also condominiums that are for rental; over 23,000 units have been completed in that year.

Mr. Rae: The Minister of Housing will be known not as the friend of people who are living in difficult conditions. He will be known as Condo Curling. That is how he will be known in Ontario, the person who used taxpayers' dollars to put up condominiums instead of housing for people who need it.

MINING SAFETY

Mr. Rae: I have a question for the Minister of Labour. Last week, the minister and I had an exchange about the question of conditions in the mining industry and the practices in the mining industry. He indicated to the House that a study would be completed soon and that he would be making a statement soon with respect to the practice in the mining industry; in particular, the question of people working above other workers.

Can the minister confirm that this study was completed as of Friday? Can he also confirm that the study will not be made public because of concerns with respect to the impact it could have on the criminal trial that is now under way?

Hon. Mr. Wrye: I am not certain whether the study was completed on Friday. In making my statement, I wanted to combine the statement on the overall study that was done in the mines with any comments that might emerge from our own investigation under the Occupational Health and Safety Act into the Levack tragedy. I am waiting until I am advised that both of those matters are complete before I make that one statement. I would not want to be pinned down to an exact date, but the end of this week or the very early part of next week is my latest understanding, from our investigation people and from the legal branch, of when we should have this matter all pulled together.

Mr. Rae: In pulling it all together, as the minister says, while Mr. Kuhle awaits his trial, can the minister tell us whether any orders have been issued to any companies in Ontario with respect to a practice that he has said is not taking place as a matter of policy in Ontario? Can he tell us whether any orders have been issued to any mining companies, including Inco, with respect to this so-called nonexistent practice?

Hon. Mr. Wrye: I remind the honourable member that we made a commitment; following the release of muck from the storage or the holding area, which was the cause of that terrible tragedy at Levack, we said we would check and see whether the situation that led to that tragedy was being pursued or whether that situation existed in other mines in Ontario. A very thorough investigation of those situations was undertaken and my understanding is there have been some orders written. I am not certain in what direction and I will not until I have had a chance to talk to the director of the mining health and safety branch.

Going back to the honourable leader of the third party's first question, any limitation on what we might say --

Mr. Speaker: Order. This was in response to the supplementary. Final supplementary.

Mr. Rae: Perhaps the minister can explain the view of the Ministry of Labour in this matter. A worker has been charged with four counts of criminal negligence causing death, not after an investigation by the Ministry of Labour but after investigation by the police, which was taking place either before or parallel to some kind of an investigation by various inspectors of the Ministry of Labour.

As a result of the minister's own intervention, although the minister says he does not know, it is our information that there have been several orders issued around the province with respect to a practice which the minister said was nonexistent and for which an individual worker is now being charged with criminal negligence causing death.

I would like to ask the minister: just what is going on in Ontario? He is issuing orders because companies are doing something, and he is leaving a worker out to dry because he was doing something which was going on in his own company. Why should workers have to carry the can when the minister did not issue the orders before and did not know what the policy was before it was taken --

Mr. Speaker: Order. Minister?

Hon. Mr. Wrye: I think the honourable member is mixing some apples with oranges and I think he is also asking me to comment on a very serious -- and I agreed it is very serious -- charge which has been laid under the Criminal Code.

I will ignore the question and simply say that some of the

preamble to the question indeed suggested a question that might have been better put to the Attorney General (Mr. Scott) because it surrounds the laying of a criminal charge in this matter.

ORDER-IN-COUNCIL APPOINTMENTS

Mr. Andrewes: I wonder if the Premier could tell the House the responsibilities of the director of appointments.

Hon. Mr. Peterson: The director of appointments, accountable to Mr. Ashworth, who is the executive director of the Office of the Premier, gathers up recommendations, talks with members of the executive council and organizes the books.

As the member knows, all the books are public now on appointments, something those guys never would do. We have brought greater changes, opened up the system and allowed all people in Ontario to participate.

Mr. Andrewes: On May 31, the Toronto Star said the following, "Heather Peterson is a woman of influence at Queen's Park, the province's top headhunter, the Premier's sister-in-law and responsible for a vast range of special appointments."

Is it appropriate that the director of appointments be accountable to the executive of the Liberal Party of Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Peterson: If the member wants to flog this old horse, go ahead; it is fine.

Mr. Rae: That's no way to talk about your sister-in-law.

Mr. Pope: What a terrible thing to say.

Interjections.

Hon. Mr. Peterson: I will repeat what I have said. It is the executive council that makes the appointments, not Heather Peterson, not the member or anybody else. The executive council makes them. If the member has any complaints with that, please bring them to me.

Mr. Gillies: He called her an old horse.

Mr. Stevenson: If your sister-in-law is from the horse family, is your wife from the dog family?

Mr. Epp: Withdraw that.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order. The member for Brantford (Mr. Gillies) may have a turn later. The member for Durham-York (Mr. Stevenson) does not have the floor.

HIGHWAY CONSTRUCTION

Mr. Pouliot: I have a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications. The minister will be aware that for months, on several occasions I have asked that his ministry conduct a feasibility study to determine the necessity of providing a four-lane highway between Nipigon and Shabaqua in northwestern Ontario, which is the present Trans-Canada Highway 17.

He has had several months to conduct the study. We fully acquiesce and understand that it is a federal-provincial undertaking. When will the minister release the study undertaken by his ministry?

Hon. Mr. Fulton: I thank the member for his question and I hope he is correct in stating that it is a federal-provincial undertaking. We would welcome federal participation. As he knows --

Mr. Pouliot: That is what the minister's letter says.

Hon. Mr. Fulton: --we have approached the federal government to participate, as it did many years ago in the original construction of Highway 17, the Trans-Canada, and as it is doing in the western provinces. We have asked them to join us in rehabilitating Highway 17.

The member will also appreciate that, given the length and the magnitude of that particular highway, and being the Trans-Canada, it is of particular importance to all of us as Canadians. There is a great deal of work to be done on that road and we acknowledge it. We are in fact doing work on that road this year, not necessarily in that particular location but in those areas of need as we are financially able to address them.

Hon. Mr. Fulton: The member will know that we have attempted to enter into some kind of arrangement with the federal government. We acknowledged that and stated that publicly on a number of occasions.

The member will also know that we are attempting at great speed to resolve the issues in his riding in dealing with Highway 17. We have assigned that as a high priority to our northern staff and we are attempting to resolve that. We are spending money. I can never understand that these members decry what is not being done, and yet my colleague the member for Timiskaming (Mr. Ramsay) announced 10 new highway initiatives and two more in the planning stages in northern Ontario only last week.

Mr. Wildman: Planning stages -- 10 years have gone by.

Mr. Pouliot: Which side of the road is the member for Timiskaming on?

Mr. Speaker: Order. The member for Nipissing would like to ask a new question.

CONFLICT-OF-INTEREST GUIDELINES

Mr. Harris: My question is to the Premier. Is the Premier aware that at least six of his parliamentary assistants have not disclosed their holdings, as was required over four months ago under his conflict-of-interest guidelines?

Hon. Mr. Peterson: I am not aware of any irregularities. Perhaps the honourable member can assist me in that.

Mr. Harris: It is a sad day when somebody has to assist the Premier with his responsibilities, but I will do my best.

One of at least six, incredibly, is the parliamentary assistant to the Minister of Tourism and Recreation, the member for Cochrane North (Mr. Fontaine), the man whose conflict violations resulted in his resignation from cabinet a year ago this month. Maybe the Premier could explain to this House why we have spent month after month debating new conflict-of-interest guidelines when it is blatantly obvious that as Premier he has no intention to enforce any guidelines that come up?

Hon. Mr. Peterson: As I said to my honourable friend, I am not aware of any irregularities. If he has any suggestions of that, then I will certainly look into them.

COMFORT ALLOWANCES

Mr. R. F. Johnston: My question is for the Premier. I am presuming that the Premier has accepted the notion that Ontario should comply with the federal Charter of Rights; otherwise, we would see notwithstanding clauses being brought in by this province, which we have not seen at this time.

Can he therefore explain to me why government policy in Ontario at this time allows discrimination on age, on disability and on the whole question of equality of service to people in our long-term institutions in Ontario, according to the amount of comfort allowance that people on fixed incomes in those institutions can receive?

Hon. Mr. Peterson: I am not sure if my honourable friend is alleging that there is some violation of the Charter of Rights here, whether he brought a legal case forward or what exactly he is telling me is a source of discrimination. As he knows, some of his members opposite have encouraged us to increase the discrimination, for example, between the two classes of the disabled and that kind of thing. We are trying very hard to end any of that kind of discrimination.

Mr. R. F. Johnston: The Premier will know that our position on the disabled is that they should be brought to the same level as the elderly and that the discrimination that is there currently should not continue.

What I am raising with the Premier is the fact that a disabled person in a nursing home in Ontario gets $77 a month for comfort allowance; an older person in a home for the aged or a nursing home gets $112 a month; but a psycho-geriatric patient, 65 and over, in a psychiatric institution, does not get a penny of comfort allowance. A physically handicapped person who is also developmentally handicapped in one of our long-term institutions for the developmentally handicapped, also does not get a cent.

In my view, this does offend the charter and I am surprised the Premier has not moved on it.

Mr. Speaker: And the question?

Mr. R. F. Johnston: Will he please adjust this so there is equality in our institutions for those people in long-term care in Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Peterson: The entire question of comfort allowances is one we have been looking at with some determination in the last little while. We have spent a lot of time on it. I expect that in the not-too-distant future we will be able to share our views and the results of that examination.

FUND-RAISING

Mr. Harris: I wonder whether the Premier considers it proper that invitations to the $200-a-head fund-raiser for the Minister of Health (Mr. Elston) were sent to the executive of the Ontario Medical Association at a very sensitive time while that association is in the middle of negotiations with the government.

Hon. Mr. Peterson: I do not know who the member is referring to. I am not aware of any massive support for this particular party by the members of the OMA or whoever he is talking about. I do not know what timing he is talking about or who he is talking about.

Mr. Harris: I am tempted to comment on the answer but the reply was hardly worth comment from anybody in this Legislature.

Mr. Speaker: It is now time for a supplementary.

Mr. Harris: It is clear that government mailing lists were improperly used for this venture. The Premier will know by now that the Canadian Acupuncture Association received a letter as well and was offended by the letter. They have been trying to meet with the Minister of Health since he was sworn in and have not been given an appointment, but now they have received what they consider a dunning letter for this sleazy fund-raiser.

Given all the irregularities, the use of government lists, the use of the provincial crest, the Ontario Medical Association in sensitive negotiations right now with his government, will the Premier now agree that this fund-raiser should be cancelled pending the report of the standing committee on public accounts that will be investigating these irregularities?

Hon. Mr. Peterson: As I understand it, a number of these questions were asked of the honourable minister. If the member wants to ask him any questions about it, he should please feel free to ask him about it. I tell the member very clearly that his characterization of it as a "dunning letter" is completely and absolutely incorrect. People who want freely to support this party, the member's party or any other party are entitled to do that. I do not know about the member but we do not offer any favours in this party; maybe he does.

Interjections.

Mr. Speaker: Order. The member for Windsor-Riverside is waiting.

PLANT CLOSURES

Mr. D. S. Cooke: I have a question to the Minister of Labour. It is in regard to the occupation of Sheller-Globe that occurred a few weeks ago. Workers were forced to occupy a plant to get basic information, to get a decent severance package, to get information on their pensions and some basic reasons why that company was closing its plant and throwing 200 people out of work. Another group of employees at Lamb corporation in our community are currently having to participate in an information picket line to try to get some basic information about their pension plan and the layoffs that are taking place at their company.

When will the minister bring in legislation to force companies to justify publicly mass layoffs, both to the community in which they made profits and to the workers who have provided those profits for the companies over the years?

Hon. Mr. Wrye: I hope to be in a position to introduce legislation to amend the Employment Standards Act within a week.

Mr. D. S. Cooke: I believe the legislation the minister is going to introduce is going to deal with severance but it is not going to deal with plant closure justification. Is it not a fact that with the minister's refusal to introduce longer notice periods and public justification, he is responsible for the occupation that took place at Sheller-Globe and is encouraging more occupations of plants so workers can achieve basic justification for the plant closures and the loss of their jobs.

Hon. Mr. Wrye: The answer is no, I will not accept, nor would I suggest the member accepts, responsibility for that very unfortunate incident. A series of issues led to that. I believe our legislation will be a very positive response to the need for more sensitive labour adjustment policies across this province, and I would suggest to my honourable friend from Windsor-Riverside that he think a little more carefully before he makes statements like that and asks questions like that which, it seems to me, do nothing but serve to inflame the sometimes difficult situations.

TRANSIT SERVICES

Mr. Callahan: I have a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Back on March 25, Via Rail cancelled certain service to Brampton and thereby deprived my residents of additional service. I would like to ask the minister what steps he is taking, in the light of the Via Rail cancellation, in terms of increasing the service to the residents of my community?

Hon. Mr. Fulton: I would like to thank the member for his question and his continued interest in providing transportation service to the great city of Brampton. As he is aware, Via Rail was cancelled and that is a federal jurisdiction. We certainly did not welcome that kind of announcement, either in Brampton or anywhere else across this province.

The member may be aware we are undergoing a transit study throughout Metro and the surrounding regions, and I hope to have the response of the committee back to me by the end of the year or so. We are certainly looking at a number of areas of expanding GO Transit service. We were looking at areas as recently as yesterday morning. It is very active and it is something we understand has to be proceeded with in a number of directions, including the northwest of Metropolitan Toronto and the surrounding area.

ONTARIO HOUSING CORP.

Mr. Jackson: I have a question for the Minister of Housing. In August 1985, two months into the minister's tenure, changes were made to the Ontario Housing Corp. point rating system, eliminating the provision that gave points to applicants who had costs for medical care, transportation and special equipment not included in medical plans.

Why did the minister change the plan to make it more difficult for people with special medical needs and for the disabled?

Hon. Mr. Curling: I will have to take that question and look at it in detail to see what the changes were that were involved there and to have a comparison. The member says I have made it more difficult; it is quite unlikely. With the kind of compassionate approach to what we have done to our housing and our clients, we would not have made it more difficult. I would ask the member to give me the details and I will look at them and compare them. I will assure the member that we are much more compassionate in our approach to our policy.

Mr. Jackson: I find it hard to believe that the minister refers to his compassionate decision. He made a political decision in August 1985.

Cosmas Gioris lives in Don Mills. He currently pays 78 per cent of his income for rent, and in fact has the maximum points for income and shelter costs. Mr. Gioris, however, has a 10-year-old son with diabetes. The cost of medication for his son means that 92 per cent of Mr. Gioris's income is committed to a roof over his head and keeping his son alive, yet these additional costs are not taken into consideration for his OHC application.

Is the minister prepared to make the necessary adjustments to ensure that families like that of Cosmas Gioris are not penalized because of health problems or disabilities in Ontario today? Why did he change it?

Hon. Mr. Curling: If there is anyone looking for political points, it is the honourable member over there. If he were so concerned about that individual, what he should have done is brought the case to me and let me look at it in its perspective. But, no, he stands in the House today and then asks me a general question, having the specifics there. He is the one who is playing politics. The member should give me the case and I will address that directly.

Mr. Jackson: Point of privilege, Mr. Speaker: I have been in conversation with his ministry for two weeks on this specific point.

Mr. Speaker: That is excellent. You may continue being in conversation with his ministry any other time.

Mr. Cousens: He does nothing.

Mr. Speaker: Order. Order.

Mr. Jackson: Mr. Speaker, I believe --

Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mr. Jackson: The point being raised by the minister --

Mr. Speaker: Order. Would the honourable member take his seat.

WASTE MANAGEMENT

Mrs. Grier: I have a question for the Minister of the Environment if he could be persuaded to sit in his seat long enough for me to address it to him.

Mr. Davis: He likes it over here. He is coming back.

Mrs. Grier: The environment is having to wait, so I suppose we can too.

Last week I asked the minister how he intended to deal with liquid industrial waste in this province. As usual, in his reply the minister referred to his municipal-industrial strategy for abatement program. The minister well knows that MISA does not cover 12,000 industries which discharge into municipal sewer systems. Can the minister tell us whether he intends to set pre-treatment standards for the 11,700 industries which do not discharge their waste directly into the province's waterways?

Hon. Mr. Bradley: The member for Lakeshore, who is often accurate in the information she provides to the House, is perpetuating a myth that 11,700 -- I have heard other figures, but somewhere in that neighbourhood of the discharges that take place in the municipal sewers are not addressed by the MISA program. She will recall that when I put out the MISA white paper it invited a response that looked not only at the direct discharges but also at the indirect discharges, those that would go into sewers.

There were two ways of looking at it. One was the sewage treatment plants and the upgrading of those. I think everyone would agree with the assessment that the sewage treatment plants alone, even with modifications and upgradings, would not deal as effectively with the discharges as if they were dealt with at source. Therefore, as she is aware, I have asked the MISA Advisory Committee, certainly with a large contingent of environmentalists on it, to report back to me on the appropriate manner in which to deal with these discharges. I expect the report this month.

They have not been forgotten. I understand they must be addressed. In many of my speeches I have mentioned that pre-treatment is one method and a uniform sewer bylaw across Ontario is another. Obviously, those are very significant sources and I have already said on many occasions that we are addressing those.

Mrs. Grier: Can the minister assure us that the manner in which he addresses this problem will ensure that the 50 per cent of the volume of waste now discharged by those 11,700 loopholes is in fact treated? Otherwise, does the minister not agree that he is creating an incentive for industries, which now discharge directly into waterways and which will be required to treat their waste, to change their method of discharge into the sanitary sewer system and therefore avoid having to do pre-treatment. How can he overcome that particular problem?

Hon. Mr. Bradley: This is precisely, of course, why we made comment on that in the white paper; why in the response to the white paper -- and we received over 100 responses -- why in our response to the responses, we indicated very clearly that we would be dealing with this issue. I am getting support from my friend the member for Brantford (Mr. Gillies) who, himself having anticipated the activity that will be taking place, has put a resolution forward which in fact supports us. I welcome the support of the member for Brantford for this initiative.

I want to indicate to the member that we recognized the potential of what she is talking about, that is people saying, "If it is going to be too tough to discharge directly, let us discharge into sewers." That is precisely why we have the MISA Advisory Committee, headed by Dr. Douglas Hallett, a renowned toxicologist and environmentalist in Ontario, formerly with Environment Canada, and others on the committee who are certainly noted for their concern for the environment. They will be reporting to me on this.

I think the member has raised an important issue. I want to express my appreciation for her support of the efforts that we are taking, and those of the member for Brantford.

NONSMOKERS' PROTECTION

Mr. Sterling: I have a question of the Premier. He knows that last month the Minister of National Health and Welfare, Jake Epp, made an attack on the problem of smoking in the work place in the federal civil service and in commissions and corporations controlled by the federal civil service. He also knows that I have Bill 71, which has been sitting in Orders and Notices since January 1, dealing with the whole issue of controlling smoking in the work place and the public place. Can he indicate to me his objections to Bill 71 or what his government intends to do about this very serious problem that is causing 35 people in Ontario to die prematurely today because no action is being taken?

Hon. Mr. Peterson: I appreciate the honourable member bringing this question up with me again, as he has done during our estimates and with a variety of different ministries and portfolios I hold. He now asks me the same question again. I can tell the honourable member that we have looked at his suggestions. In some regards they are constructive, but we are looking at all of its broad public policy ramifications. I can tell him that a great deal of attention is being spent on the issue by a variety of ministers on an interministerial basis. When we have reviewed every single detail of it, we will be happy to report back to the member about our plan for action.

Mr. Sterling: Unfortunately, the Premier never answers the question as to whether or not he has any objection to Bill 71. What does he say to Donna Bush of Markham, Ontario, who writes about secondhand smoke: "I was on medical leave of absence from November 1985 to mid-January 1986 because of the work place secondhand smoke problem I now, once again, find myself in the same situation. I have been off work for over a week now as I write this letter. I have no idea how long I will be off this time. I have also made numerous trips to the doctor and hospital. My fate lies in the hands of the government at this point.

Presently, smokers have a right to smoke and, because of this, I do not have the right to breathe"? How does the Premier answer Donna Bush?

Hon. Mr. Peterson: I do not know any more of the circumstances of that particular case than what the member tells me. As he knows, a number of employers are taking initiatives with their employees on a voluntary basis. He is aware of those instances. Obviously, one of the things she can do is to talk to her employer and her fellow employees who may have the same concerns as well. I can tell the honourable member, as I have said before, that we are working on this situation and all of its broad implications and we will share that with the honourable member and Ms. Bush at the appropriate time.

HERITAGE LANGUAGES

Mr. Grande: My question is for the Minister of Education once again. It is in regard to the heritage languages program and the proposal the minister tabled yesterday in the Legislature. On page 4 of the minister's statement to the House, he said he was going to make sure that school boards were going to provide the heritage language if parents of 25 pupils made a request for it; in other words, no school board was going to be forced. The reason he will do this is that he has a deep commitment to educational equity; in other words, the old, equal educational opportunity we have been speaking of for many years.

Given this deep commitment he has, can he explain to us why in the full knowledge that Quebec, Manitoba, Alberta and Saskatchewan are teaching heritage languages during school hours, he has opted to deny children in Ontario that right and that equal educational opportunity?

Hon. Mr. Conway: Let me say to the honourable member that the situations among the provinces are not as the honourable member describes. We have 90,000 students enrolled in some 4,000 classes with some 58 heritage languages being taught in some 72 school jurisdictions. When one compares the size of our program with, for example, some of the western provinces and when one looks at the diverse range of the offering in Ontario, one quickly understands that there are distinguishing characteristics that set the situations apart.

We as a government have said that we are going to move forward in terms of enriching and expanding the programs in so far as heritage languages are concerned. We are going to provide the mandate. We are going to enrich teacher support and curriculum development. We think we have struck a good balance between meeting the multicultural reality of a modern Ontario and ensuring that the important educational objectives this government has set for everyone in the Ontario school system are going to be met.

Mr. Grande: The minister, I think, is speaking without the facts and he is closing the door to thousands of kids in the province of Ontario learning their heritage languages and receiving a better education than they receive today through the medium of their heritage languages.

Mr. Speaker: And the supplementary?

Mr. Grande: The minister of course knows that 13,473 children in Manitoba are receiving heritage languages during the school day. When one talks about 90,000 children in Ontario and compares that to the population of Manitoba, 13,000 sounds about right; there are one million in Manitoba. The point is --

Mr. Speaker: What is the question?

Mr. Grande: Since the educational ministry in Manitoba was able to come to grips with those concerns and those problems in order to implement this program, why is it that the province of Ontario cannot? That is the question.

Hon. Mr. Conway: When one looks at some of the western provinces, for example, one notes the number of heritage languages being offered is substantially fewer than those offered by some of our boards in Ontario which offer scores of heritage languages programs within their jurisdictions. What we have said is that we are going to maintain the option for boards to provide the heritage language programming in one of three areas, in the extended school day, after school, or on weekends.

We think that represents a very fair balance between the concerns of the multicultural community on one hand and all those who are charged with operating a very significant and diverse school system, who have also the responsibility of meeting the financial requirements and the logistical concerns that the member for Oakwood merrily breezes past without having any real understanding of them.

DOMESTIC WORKERS

Mr. Gordon: Can the Minister of Labour confirm with regard to the new regulations he has brought in for domestics that the 20,000 live-in domestics in Ontario can expect to receive either time off or overtime pay when they work overtime?

Hon. Mr. Wrye: Yes, I can confirm that, and I said that in my statement. At the consent of both parties, the time and a half may be paid in an hour and a half off for each hour of overtime worked; in other words, time and a half off in lieu of overtime pay.

Mr. Gordon: I would like to inform the minister that Judith Ramirez of the International Coalition to End Domestics' Exploitation is very disappointed with this initiative on the part of the minister. As far as she is concerned, the minister is just putting domestic workers into a ghetto. He is not treating them the same as other workers in Ontario, and he is taking those immigrant women, those 20,000 live-in domestics --

Mr. Speaker: And the supplementary is?

Mr. Gordon: --and he is leaving them out in the cold. This is completely wrong. Is he not really putting these people in a ghetto?

Hon. Mr. Wrye: As matters proceed during the rest of the month and other reports come forward, one will see there are proposals to move in this direction. I just want to say to my honourable friend that all of these problems we have dealt with today were problems which faced the member's government during its first term. The difference between this government and his government is we acted.

WESTERN COAL

Mr. Charlton: I have a question for the Minister of Energy. Last week, in his response to my question to him on Ontario Hydro's use of low-sulphur western coal, the minister responded by informing the House that Hydro was already buying three million tons a year, a fact most of us have known for several years now, but he mentioned in that response the fact that Hydro was paying a $70 million premium for that western coal. I would like to ask the Minister of Energy whether in consultation with his colleague the Minister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Kerrio), he has discovered the costs of burning one ton of high-sulphur coal in terms of environmental damage to our lakes, forests, fish stocks, wildlife, buildings and agricultural crops in Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Kerrio: No, I certainly did not examine that aspect of it. What I shared with the honourable member when he asked the question was the fact that Ontario Hydro is paying $70 million extra to burn western coal, and that in addition to that, Ontario Hydro had to make substantial investments in new coal cars to carry the coal from the west. We have had substantial involvement in mixing facilities at Atikokan and other places. We have had investments in ships. I was trying to prove to the honourable member that Ontario is indeed a province that is willing to co-operate with other provinces across Canada to see where we can be helpful to each other.

The aspect the member talks about certainly is addressed by the new initiatives of the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Bradley). We have concerns about the acid gas emissions and we are definitely doing things about them to cut back on the acid emissions. I just feel very badly that with all the initiatives being taken by this government, we are not getting the same kind of response from our American friends.

Mr. Charlton: That is precisely part of the problem. The minister said in his response last week, "Yes, we are considering the environmental aspects and what we can do to help the western provinces, but we also have to consider Ontario consumers." Does the minister not think that perhaps it is time those two ministries co-operated with each other to discover what would really help Ontario consumers? It is the consumers of this province who pay the shot for the environmental damage as well as for Hydro rates. Does the minister not think it is time he found out the real cost per ton of environmental damage so the people of this province can make some real and honest decisions?

Mr. Speaker: The question has been asked twice.

Hon. Mr. Kerrio: I do not think there are two ministers in the cabinet who co-operate more than the Minister of Energy and the Minister of Natural Resources.

Having said that, I cannot believe my response was one the member would not accept. In fact, we are trying to examine what the costs are. We are doing something about it. This is the problem we have with our American friends. They are saying: "Wait; we do not know what the problems are. We are not sure acid rain is having the impact Mr. Bradley is talking about." But the Minister of the Environment knows the impact and I know the impact and the member knows the impact. This government is doing more about this than any other government on the continent of North America.

TRANSIT SERVICES

Mr. Jackson: I have a question for the Minister of Transportation and Communications. Given the fact that there are millions of GO Transit commuters in Ontario who are already paying as much as $2,500 each annually just to get to work and home again, will the minister assure these commuters that a proposed additional charge for parking at GO train stations, estimated to cost between $1 million and $2 million, will not be instituted by his government?

Hon. Mr. Fulton: I will undertake to the member to attempt to check out his sources. I am not aware that the board is attempting to put in place a parking fee but I will certainly undertake to find out for the member and report back to him.

Mr. Jackson: I am surprised the minister seems that ill-informed, given that his own ministry is out, even at public hearings, discussing the fact that this proposal is under active consideration. The minister himself has been privy to meetings where the matter has been discussed. I am merely asking the minister to state today in this Legislature for the record for all those millions of commuters in Ontario that he and his government will not consider such a recommendation for those commuters.

Hon. Mr. Fulton: If the matter is under review as the member alleges, we will certainly review it. I will be more than happy to get back to the member.

FIREFIGHTING EQUIPMENT

Mr. Wildman: I have a question of the Solicitor General, if he can return to his seat.

In the light of the letter dated May 29 to me from the Solicitor General, in which he says, "I am convinced of the need to provide small municipalities with financial assistance to acquire expensive firefighting equipment," and in the light of the letters the ministry has sent to the very many municipalities in reply to past resolutions requesting the implementation of the resolution that was passed unanimously by this House, can the minister tell us when he expects the government will implement a program of providing financial assistance for expensive firefighting equipment for small municipalities in Ontario?

Hon. Mr. Keyes: The honourable member knows that budget time has gone by at the moment, as announced, but we are always looking to see how we can augment those services for smaller municipalities. Perhaps we can obtain some assistance from the member opposite during the estimates process.

USE OF TIME IN QUESTION PERIOD

Mr. Speaker: The time for oral questions has expired. The members may be happy to know that we have reached a new objective today during question period. There were 19 questions and 22 supplementaries today.

PETITION

DIALYSIS UNIT

Mr. McLean: I have a petition.

"To the Lieutenant Governor and the Legislative Assembly of Ontario:

"We, the undersigned, beg leave to petition the parliament of Ontario as follows:

"That the government of Ontario provide the funding for a haemo-dialysis unit at one of the hospitals in Peterborough."

It is signed by residents of the Norwood, Asphodel area.

ORDERS OF THE DAY

House in committee of the whole.

PAY EQUITY ACT / LOI DE 1987 SUR L'ÉQUITÉ SALARIALE

Consideration of Bill 154,

An Act to provide for Pay Equity.

Etude du projet de loi 154, Loi portant établissement de l'équité salariale.

Mr. Chairman: We have in front of us Bill 154. Are there any comments, questions or amendments that any honourable member wants to make, and if so, to what section?

Hon. Mr. Nixon: I wonder whether I might suggest to the committee that in the unlikely event there are any differences of opinion on any amendments, we might stack the votes until 5:45 p.m., at which time we could deal with them by an aye or nay or by some other method.

Mr. Chairman: Is there unanimous consent to stack votes until 5:45 this afternoon?

Agreed to.

Mr. Chairman: Do the members have any comments, questions or amendments; and if so, to what section?

Mr. Baetz: How are we planning to proceed? Are we going

section to

section to

section --

Hon. Mr. Nixon: Yes.

Mr. Baetz: --or are going to go back and forth?

Hon. Mr. Nixon: We would never do that.

Mr. Baetz: Starting with

definitions and moving methodically forward, ever forward?

Hon. Mr. Nixon: Yes.

Mr. Chairman: This is committee of the whole House and not estimates.

Mr. Baetz: I just wanted to have that confirmed.

Ms. Gigantes: Mr. Chairman, we have a series of amendments and I believe you have copies of them. We have not received any notice of amendments from the Conservative Party. We, on behalf of the New Democratic Party, will be placing motions to the bill. We have not received any indication whether the Conservative Party intends to place motions. We have received no copies of such motions.

Mr. Baetz: Mr. Chairman, I can assure you and the member from the New Democratic Party that we will indeed be introducing amendments. They are now being run off and we will be circulating them within the next few minutes. They are hot off the press. It shows how very carefully we have considered these amendments. They are just about to come. We will have about six or seven, unlike the cartload we are expecting from the party to my left.

Mr. Chairman: Does the member for Ottawa Centre wish me now to go through her list of amendments?

Ms. Gigantes: When the Conservatives have not provided other people in this Legislature with copies of the amendments they intend to put I wonder how we can follow your guidance, which is that we start at the beginning of the bill and move through it.

Mr. Chairman: The process we are in right now is only one of finding out on which sections there are any amendments, questions or comments, not the merits and not moving the motions at this time.

Ms. Gigantes: I will list the amendments we intend to put. We have an amendment to subsection 1(1), a second amendment to subsection 1(1) and a third amendment to subsection 1(1). These affect

definitions within the bill. We have an amendment to subsection 3(1). We have an amendment to subsection 7(3) and an amendment to subsection 7(4).

Mr. Chairman: Sorry. Subsection 3(1)?

Ms. Gigantes: Subsection 3(1).

Mr. Chairman: Subsection 3(2)?

Ms. Gigantes: We will recommend people vote against subsection 3(2) if our amendment to subsection 3(1) carries.

Mr. Chairman: Thank you. Subsection 7(3) --

Ms. Gigantes: Subsections 7(3) and 7(4). We would recommend voting against subsections 8(2), 8(3) and 8(4). We have an amendment to subsection 9(1). We have an amendment to clauses 10(b), (

c) and (d). We have an amendment to subsection 11(1). We have an amendment to subclauses 13(2)(e)(ii) to (v), to subsection 13(7), to

section 18, a recommendation to vote against

section 21 and a recommendation to amend clauses 34(2a), (2b) and (2c).

Mr. Chairman: That is according to the copies I have. There are also certain government motions.

Mr. Baetz: And motions from the official opposition.

Mr. Chairman: Perhaps the parliamentary assistant will indicate the government motions.

Mr. Ward: The government has an amendment to

section 2, and a recommendation that members vote against

section 32 as it is redundant.

Mr. Baetz: We will be introducing amendments.

Mr. Chairman: Do you have copies of them?

Mr. Baetz: They now are being distributed. I should say that we had anticipated Bill 54 was going to go first this afternoon. Had that happened, we would have been ready and would have had our amendments circulated. I apologize but the fault is not entirely with us.

Mr. Chairman: That is Bill 34.

Mr. Baetz: Bill 34; whatever. There is another bill.

Mr. Chairman: Yes, thank you. We now have copies of amendments that I think the member is going to go through and confirm.

Section 1 -- is that subsection 1(6)?

Mr. Baetz: It is

section 1. We will be introducing an amendment,

section 1a. Again under

section 1, we will be calling for substitution of subsection 1(6).

Under

section 6, we will be proposing that we add a new subsection 6(1a). Again under

section 6, we will be moving that subsection 6(4) of the bill be amended by adding a new clause (c).

Under clause 8(1)(f), we will be moving that the bill be amended by adding thereto the following clause, and that is (f).

Under

section 14, we will moving that

section 14 of the bill be amended. Under

section 16, we will be moving that

section 16 of the bill be amended. Under

section 22, we will be moving that

section 22 of the bill be amended.

We will be moving that

section 35 be struck out and a substitution made therefor. That is it for now.

Mr. Chairman: Yes, I have all of those. Are there any other comments, questions or amendments that members wish to put to any sections? There appear to be none. Nothing can be carried until the first amendment. The first amendment appears to be that of Ms. Gigantes to subsection 1(1).

section 1:

Mr. Chairman: Ms. Gigantes moves that the definition of "employee" in subsection 1(1) of the bill be struck out and the following substituted therefor:

"`Employee' includes an employee of a contractor or a subcontractor performing work or services for the employer, but does not include a student employed for his or her vacation period."

Ms. Gigantes: The purpose of this amendment is to make sure that employers take responsibility under this legislation for employees who are at arm's length. This bill has its flaws in terms of its lack of coverage for women who are at work in Ontario, which we will address by other amendments. While we can say that the bill is ineffective in some ways, there are also some ways in which the bill is downright dangerous as far as women are concerned in Ontario. I will just elaborate a bit on my fears on this point.

The bill says that employers, given certain formulas, strictures and mechanisms provided by the legislation, shall have to take account of positions and whether they are being paid equitably. They shall have to make comparisons or allow comparisons to be made in a complaint to the Pay Equity Commission of Ontario, which will be adjudicated by the pay equity tribunal, but only if those employees are regular employees in one way or another.

We know there has been a tendency for employers in Ontario, for a number of reasons and in a number of ways, to get rid of responsibilities for employees by contracting out services. This happens in many areas of work in Ontario where even very large firms have turned to the option of contracting out services so they do not have to pay the kinds of wages they have been paying, the kinds of benefits they have been paying, and so on, for such services as cleaning, kitchen help, the provision of food, etc.

Every day of every month in Ontario we see an increasing tendency on the part of employers to use the contracting-out method of getting rid of what responsibilities they held previously in their relationship with dozens, hundreds, of employees.

If this legislation goes ahead in its present form, there will be an added incentive for employers to contract out services. If an employer can avoid responsibility for providing pay equity and for working within the mechanisms of this legislation by getting rid of those responsibilities through the process of contracting out, the employer will have an incentive to do so. It is a temptation this legislation puts before employers. It is a new level of temptation.

There has been enough temptation in the past so that we have had problems right across Ontario, both in the public sector and in the private sector. For us now to close our eyes to that pattern and to say it does not make any difference if we say contracted-out positions are not covered by this legislation, is to wilfully deny the realities of work life in Ontario. If we leave this loophole open and invite employers to take advantage of it, we are undermining the work situation for hundreds and thousands of women in this province.

I think every legislator who knows what has been happening in the work force in his or her area and right across this province will want to look at this provision very closely to make sure that once this legislation has been passed by the Legislature there will not be an added inducement to employers to contract out.

It is the purpose of our amendment to say that where contracting out takes place, the employer who contracts out for a service will still have to take responsibility under the tenets of this legislation for providing pay equity for employees who are employed at arm's length.

Mr. Ward: I believe this issue was discussed, perhaps not in the specific context of the amendment that is before us today, but the whole issue of the employees of contractors and contracting out was discussed during the course of the committee hearings and the subsequent clause-by-clause debate.

I merely want to state that we do not support this amendment. The employees of contractors are covered by the pay equity legislation as employees of the contractor as the employer. The amendment put before us has the impact of making those employees, for the purposes of comparison, in effect the employees of the person who contracts for these services.

Ms. Gigantes: The parliamentary assistant is looking at an amendment which was brought to the standing committee on administration of justice. He should be familiar with it; it is word for word the amendment we considered in the justice committee. I had hoped that in the passage of time since he would have thought a bit more on this subject, and I still hope to be able to convince him on this subject.

He points out quite rightly that under the legislation the contract employer -- the person who is providing contracted services -- would have a responsibility to provide pay equity if the firm were of a certain size, and if there were job comparisons as laid out in the formulas of the bill would have a responsibility to provide pay equity under this legislation for the employees engaged in the contracted services.

However, let me ask the parliamentary assistant whether he is familiar with what happens in contracted-out services. I know that in the area I come from in Ottawa, when a hospital, for example, has contracted out cleaning services, what happens is that longtime employees lose about $3 an hour. They are put in a situation where they are not unionized any more. They have to become unionized again under a new employer who is the contractor, and they lose benefits they had previously. They lose a lot, not just in terms of pay but in terms of the security of their work situation and all the benefits that have maybe been associated for years with that work situation.

Furthermore, if the person who is providing contracted services -- the new employer of these people -- is to provide pay equity, with whom are they to be compared? With other people doing contracted services at the lower rate.

That means the person who has been cleaning in a hospital for 10 or 15 years at a certain level of pay, in a certain kind of stable position in terms of employment and with certain benefits now, suddenly becomes the employee -- if he or she is lucky -- of the person who is providing contracted services at a rate where, if those people are to be compared with each other under their new employer, there will not be any kind of comparison with the situation in which they have always worked.

That is precisely why the hospital or the major employer will choose, under this legislation, to find a new reason -- yet a new reason -- for contracting out services. What we are adding to the work situation of women in Ontario if we pass the bill without this amendment is a new incentive for employers to get rid of employees who may have long standing in the work place, to get rid of them for yet another reason, which is that they would have to take responsibility for them in terms of pay equity.

Is the parliamentary assistant aware of cases like this? Does he think it is fair that we should be leaving this kind of incentive for employers to increase the level of contracting out? Does he not agree that it provides an incentive?

Mr. Ward: I do not necessarily agree it provides an incentive. The whole point of the pay equity legislation is that female employees within an establishment have the ability to draw on comparisons within that establishment for the purpose of achieving wage adjustments that achieve pay equity. I will not deny the concern the member for Ottawa Centre may have in general terms regarding the whole issue of contracting out, but I do not believe this bill is the appropriate forum or format to address those concerns.

This bill is designed to provide for wage adjustments within an establishment on the basis of job comparisons within that establishment. I really do believe that the issue the member for Ottawa Centre draws to our attention is a valid issue, but I will not concede it is an issue that solely relates to pay equity and occupational segregation.

Ms. Gigantes: Let me try one more time. The parliamentary assistant is quite correct in saying that the problem of contracting out, which is a widespread one and which disrupts the lives and the work situations of hundreds and thousands of employees right across Ontario, men and women included, is not one that is going to be solved through this bill. Can he deny that if we leave the definition that currently sits in the bill, there will be yet another reason for employers to choose the method of contracting out in order to avoid obligations to employees?

Mr. Ward: Quite simply, no, I do not believe so. I believe that if there is an incentive that exists within the establishment to contract out, that incentive exists regardless of Bill 154.

Ms. Gigantes: I draw to his attention that there are now professional firms engaged in telling employers exactly the opposite. In fact, there is one legal firm which has come to my attention recently, Weir and Foulds, which put out a client news bulletin dated April 1986 in which it draws to the attention of employers the following: "Employment practices such as contracting out, hiring, promotion, termination will have a significant impact on the number of employees within a job class." Obviously, people who are giving advice to employers in this province are well aware of this loophole.

I think the parliamentary assistant is being disingenuous if he is suggesting to us this does not add to the employer incentive to contract out and disrupt further the work situations of a significant number of women in this province.

Mr. Baetz: I have heard this argument to and fro, both in the justice committee and again here today. I must say I cannot help but support the views of the parliamentary assistant on this, to the extent that contracting out is a problem, and nobody will deny there may be some problems there, but to the extent it is, this is definitely the wrong piece of legislation to deal with that particular issue. Therefore I must say I cannot support the views of the New Democrats on this one.

Mr. Chairman: Are there any further comments on this proposed amendment by the member for Ottawa Centre? There being none, shall the amendment to subsection 1(1), the change in the definition of "employee," carry?

All those in favour will please say "aye."

All those opposed will please say "nay."

Mr. Wildman: That is an anticipatory demand for a vote.

Vote stacked.

Mr. Chairman: May I point out to the committee, so that we do not have the troubles we had yesterday, that even today, after yesterday, there was hardly a nay squeaked out when I asked about it being carried.

Mr. Wildman: That just means people want it to carry.

Mr. Chairman: Thank you. Obviously I was not speaking to members of the third party. The next one I have is an amendment by Ms. Gigantes to subsection 1(1), the definition of "female job class."

Ms. Gigantes moves that the definition of "female job class" in subsection 1(1) of the bill be amended by striking out "60 per cent or more" in clause (

a) and inserting in lieu thereof "a majority."

Ms. Gigantes: As members are aware, this legislation sets up a preliminary test for the beginning of job comparisons, either within a plan in the first phase of the bill or in a complaint in the second phase of the bill. That test is set out by saying that women may ask for a job comparison with their male colleagues or to have their job class compared with another job class in the work place if the female job class has at least 60 per cent female incumbents.

This is a way of screening out job comparisons in the mechanisms of the bill. It is one which will limit, inhibit and restrict the number of job comparisons that women in the work place can ask for within their own work place. We do not know how many women will be screened out by that process, women who should have their jobs compared.

I would like to ask the parliamentary assistant, as he considers this matter once again, whether at this stage the government has managed to come up with any estimates of how many women who might otherwise have their jobs compared with other jobs within their own work place will be screened out of that process and screened out of the effective provision of pay equity under this legislation by the imposition of the test of 60 per cent female occupancy of a female job class.

Mr. Ward: I do not believe that the threshold numbers or percentages that are established for arriving at a definition of female or male job class eliminate any female employee from comparison under this legislation. I know this is an area where the member for Ottawa Centre and I have disagreed in the past. I will once again refer the member to subsection 1(5), which is the historical incumbency clause.

Simply put, that

section states, "In deciding or agreeing whether a job class is a female job class or a male job class, regard shall be had to the historical incumbency of the job class." In other words, if a job is a traditionally female job and it happens not to be occupied by the percentages that are indicated in the definition for the purposes of the proactive model, then I do not believe the coverage is denied because of the fallback from subsection 1(5).

Ms. Gigantes: If the parliamentary assistant truly believes that nobody is going to be screened out by that percentage, then why have we got it in the bill?

Mr. Ward: The reason that the 60-70 per cent limits are in the bill, as I thought I had stated previously, is because this legislation is, I understand, one of the few -- if not the only -- proactive pieces of legislation for the private sector in the western world. The reason for establishing the 60-70 per cent threshold limits was so that those employers would be able to easily identify male and female job classes for the purposes of making their comparisons. In fact, it sets out a hard-and-fast objective test to do that.

Again, subsection 1(5) is a catch-all that does provide access for female employees who may not find themselves caught by those threshold limits; therefore, they will still be able to access coverage under that.

Mr. Barlow: If it is the case, as the parliamentary assistant just said, that it is there for clarifying the 60-70 per cent, which I am sure we will hear an amendment on, why cloud it with subsection 1(5) then? Why cloud it by saying that, on the one hand, you have to have 60 per cent but, on the other hand, historical incumbency is an answer? It is another invitation for this whole bill to go before the courts.

Mr. Ward: Frankly, I do not think that subsection 1(5) clouds the issue at all. The whole point is that in a small establishment, for instance, if it were just left at the 60 and 70 per cent without subsection 1(5), I suppose an employer could go out and hire a couple of males to perform jobs that are traditionally associated on the basis of historical incumbency with being a female job and try to get around coverage under the bill. Frankly, subsection 1(5) is there to prevent that.

Ms. Gigantes: The parliamentary assistant has stated the problem, and that is that employers can manipulate their hiring so that the definition of a female job class and the further definition of a male job class, which we will come to in a moment, can easily be manipulated.

We had presentations before the standing committee on administration of justice by representatives of workers at a university, for example, who pointed out that the most reasonable job comparisons within the staff at the university could easily become a question of contention under subsection 5 by the manipulations in terms of hirings or job definition of two employees.

The parliamentary assistant shrugs, "Oh, of course that would not happen." Of course it will happen. It is exactly what will happen. We had people quite experienced in labour legislation before us, who make their living precisely out of those fine little distinctions that employers can play around with in terms of labour rights, who told us: "You can expect it. That is what is going to happen."

What the parliamentary assistant says to us is: "We define it as 60 per cent females in a female job class and 70 per cent males in a male job class. Then if there are any problems around that, we can refer the employees to

section 5, which says if the historical incumbency of a job class has been female or male, then you have a complaint to make to the commission, which will have to make a determination about whether the historical incumbency really makes this a female job class or a male job class."

Perhaps that is all very well and good for the people who came before us and talked about their real work situation at the university. They at least have a staff association. But let me point out that for 1.6 million women in this province, there ain't no labour union to go to out there and help them put together the numbers, get familiar with subsection 5 and how they can argue historical incumbency, offer them a little legal advice on the side and tell them how to make a complaint to the commission.

What we are saying is that 1.6 million women out there in the work force are going to have to figure all this out for themselves. If their employers drop three males from one job class and add three females to another job class and manage to avoid the 60-70 per cent test that has been set up in this legislation for a job comparison, they are going to be stuck on their own trying to wade through this legislation and make an argument that there is a historical incumbency to the job class in which they work.

It is another invitation for employers to have fun and games with this legislation, to manoeuvre their way around this legislation and to screen women out of the effectiveness of this legislation.

What we are proposing is a very simple amendment which says that if there is a majority of women in a job class, it should be called a female job class. We will further propose that if there is a majority of men in a job class, it should be called a male job class. At least there you are getting down to numbers you can talk about.

Women make up close to 50 per cent of the work force in Ontario. This 60-70 per cent test is totally arbitrary. It may have had some kind of justification in other jurisdictions. The parliamentary assistant will be saying to us, I am sure, that it has been used in other jurisdictions. There is no reason for us to use it here. There is absolutely no indication he can give us of why it is suitable to the work force in Ontario. He tells us it will not screen people out. I think he is being naive; he is either being naive or he is blinding himself to reality.

Mr. Ward: I cannot resist one more attempt at trying to convince the member for Ottawa Centre that with this amendment and her consistent position -- a position, I might add, that probably could achieve some consensus -- frankly, I think her amendment serves neither private sector employers who have to make the determination nor female workers.

She points out that any threshold limit is subject to manipulation and then attempts to substitute one threshold limit for another, that being 50 per cent instead of 60 per cent or 70 per cent. She points out that it is a much lower test and she talks about the 1.6 million working women not represented by unions.

I would point out that during the course of our committee's consideration of this, the member's solution to this perceived problem was to leave the whole issue of determination of female or male job class to some sort of battleground between the employer and the employee, solely on the basis of historical encumbency.

I really wonder, in response to the member for Ottawa Centre, how she can honestly say she believes that those unrepresented working women are going to have any easier task in establishing the historical encumbency definition of a female or male job class than they are with fixed threshold limits. Frankly, I have a great deal of difficulty in seeing any logic whatsoever in the member's argument.

Ms. Gigantes: One final word on this. Although we may have further contributions by the parliamentary assistant, I will try to limit what I have to say. Obviously, he is unconvinced.

If I can jump four feet and somebody says to me, "Jump four feet, five inches," then he has set up a threshold, a test, that I am not going to be able to pass. I suggest that if we move the threshold back, as we have done here in what seems to me to be a reasonable proposal, it is going to be easier for people to get over that test, that screening-out process.

Furthermore, the parliamentary assistant clearly has not understood the process, which was a much more complex one, that we proposed during consideration by the standing committee on administration of justice. We have made every attempt here today to put our amendments in the clearest, simplest fashion, assuming that for the major part this legislation would stand as it is. We have looked to try to remedy the largest defects we see in the legislation. This clearly is one of them.

It is such a large defect that, as is widely known, the former spokesperson on women's issues for the Conservative caucus felt forced to leave that position when she could not get support from her caucus to get rid of this test. She felt this screening process set up in the bill was one which was inexcusable and which she on principle had to oppose. She could not get support from the rest of her caucus on that, or at least a majority of her caucus, and she went so far as to resign as the women's issues critic, for which I have to express my admiration.

It is certainly a significant matter and the parliamentary assistant should not treat it as if it were not.

Mr. Ward: First, I just want to reiterate that I do not believe the amendment as put forward does anything to enhance the coverage of female employees. Second, I think the amendment as proposed makes it even more difficult for those private sector employers to make the determinations as to the job class comparisons they must make.

Mr. Chairman: Shall Ms. Gigantes's amendment regarding the definition of "female job class" carry?

All those in favour will please say "aye."

All those opposed will please say "nay."

In my opinion, the nays have it.

Vote stacked.

Mr. Chairman: Ms. Gigantes moves that the definition of "male job class" in subsection 1(1) of the bill be amended by striking out "70 per cent or more" in clause (

a) and inserting in lieu thereof "a majority."

Ms. Gigantes: The reason for this amendment has been addressed in the previous discussion surrounding the definition of "female job class." I would just like to ask the parliamentary assistant why it is a female job class if it has 60 per cent females, but in order to be a male job class it has to be 70 per cent males.

Mr. Ward: Threshold limits were arrived at on the basis of the breakdown and representation within the work force of male and female employees, 45 per cent full-time employees being female and 55 per cent male. Threshold limits reflect that sort of breakdown.

Ms. Gigantes: I would be quite willing to have a subamendment come forward that said 55 per cent instead of 70 per cent males. Is he proposing that to us?

Mr. Ward: No.

Ms. Gigantes: Why not?

Mr. Ward: Because. I think I have already given the argument.

Frankly, I do not think this whole exercise of trying to barter a different threshold limit is particularly appropriate at this stage. We had a good discussion on this in committee. We have had a good discussion on this with regard to the last amendment relating to the definition of "female job class."

I think I have explained the government's position as clearly as I can to the member for Ottawa Centre. I do not believe her amendment achieves what she hopes it will achieve. I have been unable to convince her and, quite frankly, she is unable to convince me otherwise. I suggest that nothing is served by prolonging the debate on this one when we have already just discussed the very same item.

Ms. Gigantes: I am sorry the parliamentary assistant is feeling impatient on this, but in truth, I have never heard the government say the reason for a 60-70 per cent comparison test was that the makeup of the work force was 45 per cent female and 55 per cent male. That is an entirely new proposition from the government.

If that is the basis on which these comparison tests were set up, I really do not understand why they were not set up on the basis of 45 per cent female occupancy for a female job class and 55 per cent male occupancy for a male job class. I do not think we have had an explanation of that.

What we are suggesting in this amendment, and the parliamentary assistant can accept this amendment without having had to accept the previous amendment dealing with the female job class, is the lowering by 20 per cent of the male occupancy required before a female job can be compared to a male job class. What we are asking for is a lowering of the threshold.