April 28, 1994

SOCIAL SERVICES ESTIMATES COMMITTEE

Pursuant to Standing Order 87, Jack Byrne, M.H.A.

(St. John's East Extern) substitutes for Lynn Verge, M.H.A. (Humber East).

The Committee met at 9:00 a.m. in the Legislative

Chamber of Colonial Building.

MR. CHAIRMAN (Gilbert): Order, please!

There are a couple of housekeeping things that the

Committee has to do. The first thing I suppose is pass the minutes of the last

meeting.

On motion, minutes adopted as circulated.

MR. CHAIRMAN: There was an issue raised

yesterday which I think that we as a committee should address now so that we

won't get involved in it. It hadn't occurred before. As I understand it, these

committees are sort of creatures of their own. They can create their own rules

sort of thing as to how they operate. I've talked to some of the members about

this, and it was raised in another committee yesterday: the replacing of people

during a meeting.

Generally, my feeling on it is that - what I was

thinking was that we should possibly talk about how this Committee should

operate. My feeling was, and it hadn't been raised, was that if a person was

going to replace one of the members of the Committee that the person would have

completed a form, passed it to the Clerk previous to the meeting, and then he or

she was there for the duration of the meeting, because otherwise you could get

into a situation that people could be rushing in and handing in their form and

changing every five minutes. I leave it open to the Committee now, and I would

like their direction as to how we feel we should operate in this.

MR. HARRIS: This is a very good Committee and

it is useful to have these kinds of rules. I suppose they should be a little bit

precise. You say having the letter. Is this a letter from the caucus Whip?

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, it is one from the House

Leader, you see.

MR. HARRIS: From the House Leader.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.

MR. HARRIS: Indicating that so-and-so is -

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Government House Leader,

indicating that someone is replacing someone else on the Committee.

MR. HARRIS: On the Committee. If that is the

case, the suggestion is that that person would then be able to vote in the place

of the other member.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.

MR. HARRIS: If they don't have that letter then

they can come but they can't vote.

MR. CHAIRMAN: And they can only speak by leave.

MR. HARRIS: And they can only speak by leave.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HARRIS: Okay. So you are suggesting that

perhaps if we are going to have a firm rule on that that the rule should be that

the letter should be -

MR. CHAIRMAN: In the hands of the Clerk before

the meeting. If someone has to go at 11:00, well alright, if they know that they

can then go at 11:00 but they are going to be replaced by someone else.

MR. HARRIS: That is not an 11:00 letter, that

is a 9:00 letter -

MR. CHAIRMAN: That is a 9:00 letter.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HARRIS: If that is the situation and it

avoids the kind of rackets which we get into, it would avoid a racket at that

point. The rule is there, it is all agreed on. If someone messes up, well then,

they take the consequences.

MR. CHAIRMAN: For someone to sit on this

Committee, that notice must be given before the meeting comes to order. Then, if

someone has to leave at 11:00, you have the 9:00 letter for the 11:00

replacement.

CLERK: And it has to be an original.

MR. CHAIRMAN: It has to be an original, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Let's call the question.

MR. HARRIS: No fax? Can you have a fax from

your House Leader from Naskaupi or something? I don't have that problem, but....

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, that is right. You, Jack, you

are (inaudible).

CLERK: (Inaudible) the Government House Leader,

not your House Leader.

MR. CHAIRMAN: No, it is the Government House

Leader you see that this all (inaudible) each party has to have this one from

the Government House Leader.

MR. HARRIS: The Government House Leader?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.

MR. HARRIS: Oh, not from your own House Leader.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.

MR. HARRIS: Oh, I see.

MR. J. BYRNE: Mr. Chairman, will there be a

time limit on that? Like, a certain period of time before the meeting, or can

you just walk in two minutes before?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before the meeting starts, you

know at 9:00 o'clock or whenever it is. It's got to be in the hands of the Clerk

before it starts.

MR. J. BYRNE: And before the member - is that

motion -

MR. CHAIRMAN: All in favour?

AN HON. MEMBER: Aye.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Okay, carried.

Mr. Harris.

MR. HARRIS: First of all I'd like to introduce

an individual who is spending the morning with me in a program, I think it's

called, Take Your Daughter To Work and since I don't have a daughter or

certainly not a daughter of the right age, I have been very kindly accompanied

today by a young woman named Sherry Stevenson from St. Theresa's School who's

travelling with me this morning. I know the minister also has a daughter and I'm

sure she'll introduce her as well.

I have to say as well that I wasn't aware until

yesterday afternoon of this meeting scheduled for this morning and had made a

commitment to the CBC to do a radio interview along with a couple of other MHAs

or a minister and MHA at 9:30 o'clock. So I think it'll probably make sense,

even though I was speaking the last time when we broke, that instead of me

starting the proceedings today I would suggest that perhaps - I would be asked

leave to do this interview - and perhaps you could start with someone else and I

would take my turn in the rounds when I came back from the CBC probably around

10 o'clock.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HARRIS: No, I have to do an interview at

9:30 o'clock at CBC. It's 9:15 now and I have to get there.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HARRIS: Well that's up to the Committee. If

the Committee wants to go then I'll make my points wherever I have to make them

but if you want to cancel the meeting - I understand Mr. Byrne has a few

questions and he -

MR. J. BYRNE: I have no problem if it's 10:30

o'clock when you get back, if the committee is still here is all I'm saying but

I'm not going to stay and wait for anybody.

MR. HARRIS: What I was suggesting to the Chair

was that even though I have the floor I'm prepared to give it over to someone

else because I had made a commitment to another organization. I wasn't consulted

on this meeting this morning, I don't know if you were. I was advised of it

yesterday afternoon and I've made myself available thus far. I have to meet this

other commitment and if you want to bully the committee into closing down before

I come back (inaudible).

MR. TULK: (Inaudible) the gentleman either.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Tulk, I think that we'll

leave it to the Chair and certainly we're not going to keep the meeting open for

Mr. Harris. I don't think he intended it that way. He was assuming that it would

be and if it was still here when he came back that he would be given the right

to speak and I, as Chairman, will guarantee him his right to speak (inaudible).

AN HON. MEMBER: I'll defend his right to speak.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes, so we'll now formally open

this meeting to get on with the hearings that were adjourned on the

twenty-fifth. For the sake of history I suppose, we should introduce ourselves

in the committee and you introduce yourself minister and your officials. So I'm

David Gilbert the MHA for Burgeo - Bay d'Espoir.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Jack Byrne, St. John's East

Extern.

MR. CHAIRMAN: And I understand that Mr. Harris

is the other member of the committee who will be joining us later.

MS. COWAN: Okay, thank you. Pat Cowan, Member

for Conception Bay South, Minister of Environment and Lands. I have with me,

here on my right, Dave Jeans who's the assistant deputy minister on the

environment side of the department; Barbara Wakeham who is the Assistant Deputy

Minister on the Lands side and Frank Harris who works in the financial

department. Is it appropriate now for me to introduce my daughter or do you want

me to wait?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Yes.

MS. COWAN: I think it is a nice idea because it

means that once Adella has been introduced to this particular meeting, I have

already introduced her to everybody ahead of time. Adella has accompanied me

today as my pretend daughter or substitute daughter - just having one son - and

I am really pleased to have her along and apparently, one time in Grade III,

when they had to dress up as what they wanted to be when they grew up, she

dressed up as the Prime Minister, so it would be a good experience for her to be

here today.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Great ambition.

Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a number of questions.

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have ten minutes.

MR. J. BYRNE: I have been looking at the

Estimates of course and I have a number of questions, some more general

questions for the minister and last year, the minister may remember, I got right

in to the facts and figures, which I will do again this year. Under

section

1.1.01 which is the minister's office, under Salaries, there is an increase

there this year of $4,000 approximately; is there any particular reason for

that, because I thought we were in the process of cutbacks and freezes and that

type of thing?

MS. COWAN: Okay. Well for one thing, at this

point before I turn it over to Frank, my Transportation and Communications costs

have been cut as they have been every year, because I have never used my full

allotment, I think it was $55,000 that's there for my travel when I first became

minister, so I believe there is a significant cut in that; it has been lowered

according to my travel each year. I think my travel is adequate to keep me

informed but it is certainly not excessive.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Quite parsimonious. Other than that,

I will ask Frank if he can to explain - is it the $4,000 difference you

mentioned Jack?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, approximately.

MS. COWAN: Yes, okay Frank.

MR. HARRIS: The increase this year is the

result of the re-instatement of a $2,000 general salary cut that was applied

against the minister's office during the Budget process last year, and also,

there are dollars there this year for step progressions for staff in the

division under salary scales.

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: We don't know what's there. You

know, depending on what decisions are made.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. The next one, you mentioned

Transportation and Communications and that you have taken a cut in that but

according to what was budgeted which was $33,100, you spent $42,100 and $33,100

is budgeted again this year, I mean, if you spent $42,100 and that's down from

$55,000 as you mentioned, why -

MS. COWAN: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Yes. No, well I am trying to

remember. What happened probably is that I had a couple of trips at a great

distance.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Okay. Well we will let Frank tell

you.

MR. HARRIS: The increase in the 93-94, the

current fiscal year just ending, is a relocation expenditure for the former

minister, the hon. James Kelland. That was approved by Cabinet and paid in

93-94. It is a one shot expenditure, directly related to relocation.

MR. J. BYRNE: You said it was for Jim Kelland,

the previous minister?

MR. HARRIS: The previous minister of the

department. There was a Minute of Council issued authorizing a relocation

payment to him on his relocation back to Labrador. I believe it was roughly

around $10,000.

MS. COWAN: Ten thousand dollars?

MR. F. HARRIS: I believe so, yes.

MS. COWAN: Yes, that is something provided for

(inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: You've been minister for how many

years now?

MS. COWAN: Four and a half now, I think.

MR. F. HARRIS: That took a while to process.

That item was before Justice for clarification and so on. It took quite a while

to get to the payment stage.

MR. J. BYRNE: Very good. Thank you. The next

section, under General Administration, you have Transportation and

Communication. Again, you budgeted $43,900 and you spent $53,000.

AN HON. MEMBER: Ten thousand.

MR. J. BYRNE: Ten thousand. I don't suppose

that is the same $10,000.

MR. F. HARRIS: What head is that again, sorry?

MR. J. BYRNE: Under

section 1.2.01.03,

Transportation and Communications. You budgeted $43,900, spent $53,900, and you

have $43,900 budgeted again.

MR. F. HARRIS: That increase there of

approximately $10,000 was increased travel cost incurred by departmental

executive. There was a transfer of funds approved through the budgetary process

partway through the year to cover those costs. Travel of the Deputy Minister and

the ADMs.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: The point I'm trying to get to is

that if you budget say $44,000 and you spend $54,000 for round figures, you have

$44,000 budgeted again this year, I mean, it is a $10,000 increase.... If you

spent that much last year why wouldn't you spend the same this year? Obviously

you went over.

MS. COWAN: That is more of a policy question, I

gather. As minister I have to approve all travel. It comes to my desk. I feel it

is extremely important in the environmental area to keep people up to date and

also - well, up to date I guess is the best thing. We are just talking about

executive at this point. Plus a lot of my executive work with other provinces

and at a national level in order to develop the joint policies and that kind of

thing. You can't always predict what it will be right down to the last cent, you

know.

MR. J. BYRNE: I was going to say, but this is a

25 per cent difference. That is a substantial amount.

MS. COWAN: Well, that is the reason.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. Next.

Section 1.2.02, under

General Administration, Administrative Support. You have under .12 there,

Information Technology. You have $82,500. Can you follow me?

MS. COWAN: Yes, we are doing okay. What is the

page number?

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, page 82. Administrative

Support, Information Technology, which is 1.2.02.12, under that. You budgeted

$82,500, you spent $50,000, you have $99,000 budgeted this year. I fully support

information technology. I think it is the way to go in the future and that type

of thing, but if you only spent $50,000 then why are you doubling it this year?

Are you getting new equipment? What is the story?

MS. COWAN: Yes, Frank, to you, sorry.

MR. F. HARRIS: The initial budget figure for

1993-1994 of $82,500, and the revised of $50,000, was the result of

approximately $32,000 or $33,000 being transferred from General Administration

out to the various line divisions. There was block funding provided for the

purchase of computer equipment and printers and to keep systems upgraded and so

on. As we go through the year and identify the needs in the other divisions,

funds are transferred from General Administration out to the line divisions.

Consequently you will find down through the estimates other areas there where

the initial budget for these line divisions was down and the revised is up. It

is a trade-off.

There is an increase this year. We've allocated in

the budget process an additional approximately $17,000 to finish the work on a

local area network. The installation is in the West Block. That will be

finalized this current fiscal year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Employment and Labour Relations,

they are spending a fair dollar too on information technology. So is that going

to be a policy throughout government now, to coordinate each department?

MS. COWAN: It is extremely important within our

department because as you know, having worked in lands, that we need an awful

lot of information on clients, you know, who come in, and it just makes their

job, the client of the government and Lands officer, whatever, just gives them a

real advantage over what we used to have.

MR. J. BYRNE: Actually, I look forward to the

day that it will be completely computerized.

MS. COWAN: You were there when it started?

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, the groundwork, the

(inaudible).

MS. COWAN: We have a good system. It has been

found, I think, one of the best ones in government, actually.

MR. J. BYRNE: Still a lot of work can be done.

MS. COWAN: A lot of work.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. Page 82 also. Policy

Development and Planning, under Salaries. You had budgeted $156,500 and you

spent $122,000, and budgeted $121,100 for this year. Did you have a layoff there

in that

section or what, you are down $34,000.

MR. F. HARRIS: There is a reduction in the

1994-1995 estimates due to the fact that because of our budgetary constraints on

our salary plan it was decided that the position of Public Information Officer

would not be filled in the upcoming fiscal year. As a result the estimates are

reduced by the salary for that position. It is frozen, in fact.

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

MR. F. HARRIS: There are some adjustments, yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: How many people are we talking

about being -

MR. F. HARRIS: Frozen?

MR. J. BYRNE: - eliminated from Environment and

Lands? How many positions?

MR. F. HARRIS: Five.

MR. J. BYRNE: Five.

MR. F. HARRIS: That is throughout the whole

department.

MS. COWAN: Yes. We will see too as you go

through that are going to be putting some new positions in some critical areas

as well. You probably made a note of that. If you wish to speak on it, fine, or

question it.

MR. J. BYRNE: I see, okay. We might as well get

into that right now. What new positions?

MS. COWAN: Alright. We have four new positions

that are going to go into Waste Management, developing a provincial waste

management strategy. We have three going into the Industrial division, and we

have four new Lands officers that will show up as well.

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Next page, page 83. Pollution

Clean-Up. Yes, under Amount to be Voted you spent last year $42,400, this year

you have $58,600, and you have $40,000 for next year. Basically you are

budgeting less than you budgeted last year and you spent 30 per cent more. Why

would that be?

MS. COWAN: Frank.

MR. F. HARRIS: The reduction in the upcoming

1994-1995 fiscal year is a result - I'm sorry. What was the head again? Was it

Professional Services?

MR. J. BYRNE: The Amount to be Voted, on the

bottom there, the Amount to be Voted, the total.

MR. F. HARRIS: In the 1993-1994 fiscal year

there was a one-shot study funded to identify fumes in the Rutledge Crescent

area. This had to be funded part-way through the year, and as a result they are

revised for 1993-1994 up. That is reflected then when we go into the next year,

it is reduced.

MR. J. BYRNE: Speaking of Rutledge Crescent,

I've had a number of calls myself on that. I was planning on bringing it up. You

are well aware of it anyway. Mr. Efford, the Minister of Works, Services and

Transportation, had some input over there too. That problem is not solved yet.

What is the story on that?

MS. COWAN: Dave sits on a committee that meets

with the citizens in that area. It is a bit of a headache, that particular

problem, because we are having a lot of trouble identifying just what the smell

is. We've brought in a number of experts. I will let Dave tell you what is

happening there at the moment.

MR. J. BYRNE: Actually, I lived on that street

for a year or so.

MS. COWAN: Did you? Did you find the same

problem?

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, that is a long while ago.

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: It wasn't there then.

MR. JEANS: Yes, we've been working both with

the City and with a committee of the residents to try and find out what the

exact cause is. We've had quite a sampling of the sewer and the laterals going

to people's homes. To make a long story short at this point, traps have been

installed so that most of the odours have been at least stopped from entering

their homes. We are still trying to trace the source within the sewer itself?

There's some ongoing work scheduled for the spring now to try and pin point that

more accurately?

MR. J. BYRNE: Some of the people believe that

it's coming from the White Hills depot.

MR. JEANS: Yes, there's various ideas put forth

by the residents. We've discounted most of those based on the direction of

ground water flow and so on by the consultant. I don't think we've convinced all

of them but in our minds, based on the studies done so far, the source is not up

to the White Hills or any of the gas stations that are around the area. We've

dug trenches, we've sunk ground water wells and sampled both the air above the

water and the water, analyzed them and there's no trace of any hydrocarbons.

MR. J. BYRNE: I guess I'll talk to that. I

remember before Virginia Park went down there, I'm not saying it's built on a

marsh because a lot of marshland and bog land in that area were taken out. I

mean is it from natural gases from the ground I wonder? Has that been looked at?

MR. JEANS: Well again, the bore holes that were

sunk were all by the side of the sewer pipe and they didn't turn up any traces

of hydrocarbons that would account for the smell within the sewer itself.

MR. J. BYRNE: There's no solutions in sight

yet?

MR. JEANS: No, except to the extent that we

have at least eliminated the smell going into most of the homes by the virtue of

the city putting on traps that were going to each of the draining systems around

the homes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Do you know if any of the smells

or the smell itself is affecting the health of any people in the area?

MR. JEANS: Well we don't believe so. We did

have a couple of consultants down from the Ontario Ministry of the Environment,

a toxicologist, that advised on these kind of smells and levels were detected

and it was her view that there was no long term health threat to the levels that

were found there.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I now recognize Mr. Tulk.

MR. TULK: Just a point of clarification for me

to bring me up to date on what's going on. A few years ago a federal minister of

the environment or some institution in this country proposed a Round Table on

the environment for the country. What's the status of that now? Is there a Round

Table and just what's happening?

MS. COWAN: Okay, every province in Canada, Mr.

Chair, has a Round Table and we do as well. We have just recently made new

appointments, some were from resignations. It was time to re-examine it anyway

and we've made new appointments and I expect that a meeting is imminent there -

developing at the request of the Premier and the Department of Development, it

is the Premier's committee actually on sustainable development. The Round Table

on the environment and economy is what it is. So we have people on the committee

MR. TULK: It was just called the environment at

one time?

MS. COWAN: Yes, what it is is to try to get

business, people with environmental backgrounds, government backgrounds and so

on to come together to sort of bring a consensus approach to sustainable

development issues. At the moment the committee or the Round Table is preparing

a report for the Premier as to how they see that we could best develop a

sustainable policy for government or at least for each department of government.

MR. TULK: Now that's a provincial level?

MS. COWAN: Yes, that's a provincial level. We

try to have good representation from across the Province as well as a

male/female balance and the business, environment side and so on represented

equally. Actually Kay Young, the Member for Terra Nova, was a member of that

Round Table.

MR. TULK: Is there also a Canadian Round Table

on the environment? Where do we fit into that?

MS. COWAN: Yes, there's a National Round Table.

We have representation on that Round Table and they are sort of the, I guess,

the group that take - they have an office and a lot of money put into it and

they kind of take a lead role in setting the pace for Round Tables across

Canada.

MR. TULK: I'm asking for my own reasons because

I want to do something as a member of the House but who does that Round Table,

at the Canadian level, answer to? Do they answer to a federal minister?

MS. COWAN: I'm not sure because in each case,

to get the highest level of impact that they have been designated as in the

provinces anyway, as the Premiers Round Tables, so I would assume that at the

national level it is the Prime Minister.

MR. TULK: They advise the Prime Minister?

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. TULK: Okay, thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Page 84, Environmental

Investigations continued. Under Environmental Pollution Clean-up, Purchased

Services, you budgeted $4,926,000 and spent $215,000 and have budgeted

$5,017,300; what kind of explanation can you give me for that?

MS. COWAN: Okay. For the last couple of years

we have been hoping, Mr. Chair, that we would get the clean-up underway at

Mackinson's, the site in Labrador -

MR. HARRIS. Gander and Come by Chance.

MS. COWAN: Gander and Come by Chance, not

Labrador, sorry, cleaned up, under the national program on orphan sites and we

have found that it just didn't move as quickly as we expected so we have had to

put money aside and it wasn't spent. Now in actual fact, it will be going ahead

this summer. Last summer there was exploratory work done at the sites, so they

now know what they are going to encounter as best they can and work where, we

have, under the Public Tender Act, awarded contracts now to a variety of

different people who are in the clean-up business, and the work will be

progressing now I guess, as soon as the weather is appropriate.

MR. J. BYRNE: You mentioned Come by Chance

clean-up. The company that owns that now, will they be putting any money into

that clean-up?

MS. COWAN: It's outside the grounds actually of

the plant itself, I believe, so the company that's there now does not have

responsibility - it is considered an orphan site, and there is no one whom we

can find who can take responsibility at this time to clean it up.

MR. J. BYRNE: I had a note made here when I

looked at this section; are there any dollars for Baie Verte site to clean up

that? I mean, I have been up there and I had a look at that and that is pathetic

up there.

MS. COWAN: No money is set aside at this time.

We feel that really, I mean that site, you have seen it and such a massive

clean-up is going to be required there, that there is really no way we can

handle that clean-up; the finances of it are just absolutely horrendous and so

we are looking for something that will be compatible with the environment in the

Province that will also lead to a clean-up of that particular site. Now whether

we are ever able to find a group that will pass the environmental assessment and

so on and be appropriate, remains to be seen, but we do have people from the

department monitoring it.

MR. J. BYRNE: While we are on Baie Verte, what

is the status now?

MS. COWAN: Status?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MS. COWAN: We are waiting. I assume that the

proponent had to go back and do some more work for us particularly relating to

monitoring of the inflow of the asbestos, if indeed the project goes ahead. I

had expected actually to hear from them around this time. The proponent as you

know, is not under any particular time frame but they were under pressure

because of the markets so I would assume that I am going to hear from them soon

but the ball is in their court at the moment.

MR. J. BYRNE: So you are still actively,

seriously considering that project?

MS. COWAN: Well we are not actively considering

it unless they get back to us, like we are not doing any work on it now but if

they come back to us obviously with the information we requested, we will

certainly have to have a look at that and weigh it.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, thank you. Page 85, under

Municipal, Community and Civil Services. We have a situation in Flatrock and

dealt with the Minister of Health and the Minister of Municipal and Provincial

Affairs; we have fourteen wells polluted in the Town of Flatrock, and I am

trying to work a deal with the Minister of Municipal and Provincial Affairs. Is

there any monies available through your department to correct a problem like

that?

MS. COWAN: We sort of do the advising and the

planning. Municipal Affairs is given our knowledge if it could be of help to

them, but the actual monies is in Municipal Affairs, but if we can be of any

assistance to you in providing information that would help Municipal Affairs,

that we haven't to date, some of our technicians, we are certainly willing to

help. I would assume we have been advised.

MR. J. BYRNE: We have had the inspectors down

from health, the same people who would inspect if you were going to build a

house or a well or a septic system, that type of thing.

MS. COWAN: Yes, it's a serious condition.

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible) Sharon Williams, I

believe her name is, and they came up with the problem that there are fourteen

houses, and people down there, it's just pathetic, and it's been ongoing for

fourteen months.

MS. COWAN: They have to truck their water in?

MR. J. BYRNE: Pardon?

MS. COWAN: They have to truck their water in?

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh, yes, some people do. Then

there are definitely no bucks available, anyway?

Industrial Environmental Engineering, page 85,

salaries, you have $515,900 budgeted, $487,000 spent, and $652,100 budgeted. I

think you kind of alluded to that earlier when you said that -

MS. COWAN: Yes, new positions.

MR. J. BYRNE: New positions.

Page 86, administration, under Water Resources

Management, purchased services there, subsection 06, you had $2,200 budgeted and

spent $10,200 and you have $2,200 budgeted again this year. What's the reasoning

behind that?

MS. COWAN: Under administration?

MR. J. BYRNE: Administration, subsection 06,

purchased services. You had budgeted $2,200 and spent $10,200.

MS. COWAN: Is that in connection with the

federal\provincial agreement?

MR. F. HARRIS: The increased expenditures in

1993-'94 were a result of divisional printing costs. There were printing jobs

the division incurred that were not originally budgeted for, and the money to

cover those increased expenditures was actually transferred from block funding

under general administration. As additional items are identified that the

department has to cover, block funding is transferred to the line divisions.

MR. J. BYRNE: Nine under the same section,

allowances and assistance, you had budgeted $30,000, spent $35,000 and you are

budgeted $42,000. What is the allowance assistance for, and why the increase?

MR. F. HARRIS: The original budget of $30,000,

the revised $35,000, and $42,000 for 1994-'95, these are funds that are provided

for a bursary program that the department is administering to train three

graduate engineers in the Masters program.

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. F. HARRIS: We have approval, due to

increased semester costs at the university, we have increased the semester fees

that we pay these students, the costs that the mainland universities have

(inaudible). We currently have three students enrolled in that, and those costs

became effect part way through 1993-'94, so we have had to budget an increase in

1993-'94 and then also for the next full year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Page 88, under Water Rights and

Investigations, subsection 03, transportation and communications, you budgeted

$17,400; you spent $8,400 and have $17,400 budgeted again this year. Now why

would that be?

MR. F. HARRIS: The decrease in 1993-'94 was

just generally due to reduced travel costs incurred by divisional staff. I don't

have specific reasons for that, unless Mr. Dave Jeans would have any additional

information.

MS. COWAN: (inaudible) transportation and

communications was not what had been budgeted for. It was due to less travel, I

believe, by the director. Do you have any further information on that? That is

Page 88.

MR. JEANS: I think it was just a matter of less

travel than anticipated.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Your time has expired now and I

recognize Mr. Tulk again.

MR. TULK: I have a very quick question. With

regards to the Round Table on the Environment at the federal level or the

provincial level, not now, but I would like if I could get the terms of

reference of both committees. I wonder if it is possible? Mr. Jeans are you in

charge of that?

MR. JEANS: No, Mr. Tulk, but we can probably

get it for you.

MS. COWAN: Tom Graham is the person.

MR. TULK: The terms of reference, I would like

to have them in the next day or so if that is possible because there is

something I want to do. I do not expect you to get into them now, but I would

like to know who the federal chairperson is and who the provincial chairperson

is, and I would like also to ask the minister if those two round tables are at

arm's length from both governments?

MS. COWAN: It varies from province to province.

Some of them have their own office and their own secretariat. The national - is

it arm's length?

AN HON. MEMBER: Yes.

MR. TULK: The national, that is what I'm

interested in.

MS. COWAN: Yes, it is at an arm's length. Some

have the minister sitting on them, some don't, but that one is at arm's length.

MR. TULK: Okay. That is all I wanted to know,

Mr. Chairman.

MS. COWAN: We will get that for you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Langdon.

MR. LANGDON: Getting back to the master's

students who are on the mainland doing master's degrees, what are they doing

their master's in? Is it environmental engineering or...?

MR. JEANS: They are graduate civil engineers

who are getting their master's degree in water resources engineering.

MR. LANGDON: Okay.

MS. COWAN: Individuals who are difficult for us

to find.

MR. JEANS: Yes, we don't have that expertise in

the Province. The University of Waterloo provides them with the ability to get

their master's in that degree of specialization.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. JEANS: They assist in design parameters for

water control structures, like bridges, culverts. They are aware of the physical

characteristics of ground water, surface water, hydraulics, the whole area

dealing with flood issues, to bridges, streams. It is pretty extensive,

especially (inaudible).

MR. TULK: Are we going to be able to keep them

in the Province once they graduate?

MR. JEANS: That is part of the contract. They

have to stay for a certain period. They are native Newfoundlanders now who

graduated from Memorial. This just enables them to advance their education and

get their master's. Then they will have to come back to the Province and work

for a period of time.

MR. LANGDON: How many years?

MR. JEANS: I think it is three years.

AN HON. MEMBER: We are paying the tuition for

it.

AN HON. MEMBER: That is great.

MS. COWAN: Yes, I think it is a good program.

MR. TULK: The kind of thing we should be doing,

actually.

MR. LANGDON: Okay, thank you.

MR. TULK: Congratulations to the minister.

MS. COWAN: Thank you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes, under Water Rights, 2.4.05,

.07 there. Property, Furnishings and Equipment. You had budgeted $1,400, you

have $16,400.

MS. COWAN: Yes, I think the wrong figure was

shown there. I will ask Frank. I think there is a mistake there. Is it, Frank?

MR. F. HARRIS: That is head 2.4.05.07, is it?

Is that the one?

MR. J. BYRNE: 2.4.05.07, yes, Property,

Furnishings and Equipment. Yes, go for it.

MR. F. HARRIS: The increase in 1993-1994 up to

$16,400 was due to the additional purchase of specialized scientific equipment

for use under the hydrometric operations of the division. It is just some

specialized equipment that it was identified that the division required and

funding was provided from other accounts within the department.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. Water Quality

Agreement, 2.4.06, number .07 again. Property, Furnishings and Equipment. You

had budgeted $58,500, spent $52,400, and now you have for 1994-1995, $33,500.

You spent $52,000 last year on Property, Furnishings and Equipment and the

budget is $33,500 this year. With the cutbacks that are ongoing and everything

being frozen, this seems to be a lot of money.

MR. JEANS: This relates to a program which

started last year. There was a lot of up-front cost with respect to purchase of

computer equipment and so on that is not required once you have that equipment.

It is not required the second year, of course.

MR. J. BYRNE: That $33,500, would that be for

purchasing more computer equipment for, say, the information technology that you

are planning on putting in the department?

MR. JEANS: Yes, but some of the large

expenditures were the year before, which accounts for the difference.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. On to page 89, Water

Resources Management, 2.4.07. It says: "Appropriations provide for projects

under the cost-shared Canada-Newfoundland Water Resources Management Agreement."

Can you give me some kind of an explanation on that, what that is all about?

MS. COWAN: We entered into an agreement with

the federal government to do some studies here in the Province that need to be

done. We have a major flooding problem here in the Province as compared to other

provinces so that is one of the areas where we will be doing a lot of work and

finishing up studies that began earlier in areas of the Province which are

particularly prone to flooding, and trying to establish why and what we can do

in the future to deal with it, and to prevent homes being built there.

MR. J. BYRNE: So this is comparably new for the

department?

MS. COWAN: It is not completely new but it is

certainly a real boost of what we are able to do in that particular area. We

have been doing a bit of work.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, it is probably the wrong

word, but it is completely new funding for that particular type of thing because

there is nothing there for last year.

MS. COWAN: That is right, there is nothing

there for last year.

MR. J. BYRNE: Page 90, 2.5.02, Environmental

Assessment, Salaries

Section 1 there. There was $282,000 budgeted, $346,000

spent, and $373,000 estimated. That is quite an increase. That is new staff, I

suppose?

MS. COWAN: Yes, that is the simple answer, new

staff.

MR. J. BYRNE: How many?

MS. COWAN: Two temporary biologists, and in

1994-95 we will be having three new positions.

MR. J. BYRNE: Full-time permanent positions?

MS. COWAN: Of that I am not sure. Are they full

time?

MR. JEANS: Full-time temporary.

MR. J. BYRNE: So you can let them go whenever

you want to?

Page 90,

Section 2.5.04, Environmental Impact

Management. Now, I have a note made here, Come By Chance monitoring, no money.

What I am referring to here, of course, Madam Minister is that you stated before

that the monitoring going on at Come By Chance is done by the company itself. Do

you still feel that is working properly because there certainly has been no

improvement in it?

MS. COWAN: There is not much improvement I have

to say. When it started off I was pleased, as I mentioned to the committee the

other night, but it has fallen back quite dreadfully over the last little while.

I am actually now requesting a meeting with Mr. Mifflin. The fire has thrown

everything out of whack at the moment but we are doing a little bit of increased

monitoring, some that has been done before, and a little more in-depth type of

monitoring is going to go on out there.

We hope we will put some of the issues to rest, or

if we do find there are some concerns, that they can be addressed. Dave, do you

have the technical information there that you could pass on?

MR. JEANS: This is largely related to some

studies we had done with respect to vegetation impacts and we will be really

sitting on the shoulders of the company more. We will be spending more time

reviewing their reports, assessing their monitoring efforts to ensure they are

accurate, and their own monitoring as well.

MR. J. BYRNE: As I mentioned earlier this has

been going on for awhile and it is not getting any better. Is there going to be

any time frame put on it, or limits put on it, to say: listen here, it has to be

solved within a certain period, or are we going to take some drastic action,

whatever that may be? If you drive by Come By Chance on the Trans-Canada Highway

which is a fair distance away it is pathetic. I am amazed that the people living

in that area who have been putting up with that stench as long as it has been

ongoing have not been more vocal.

MS. COWAN: Well, there have been some minor

improvements but they fall back. For every step it goes ahead there would be a

fire, a breakdown in something they just installed, or whatever. The sulphur

recovery unit was going okay, then they did not have to use it because they were

burning a lower sulphur crude and that was all very positive. Then later there

was a breakdown in the sulphur recovery unit when they started burning a sour

crude, so it has been a difficult one. The smell problem is not one that I

anticipated would be dealt with before this summer. It required a cover for an

API separator which separates oil and water and then they can reuse the oil.

That required a fair amount of engineering advice. Then of course the

construction of a cover for it that was particular to that separator. That I did

not expect to be done as quickly as the lowering of the sulphur, SO 2 .

That is proceeding again not like I want it to, so

that is the reason I've asked Mr. Mifflin to come in again. We are going to have

to assess all of this now in terms of the fire. It is closed at the moment and I

have no idea what is going to happen, but certainly there is going to have to be

more cooperation out there or something drastic is going to have to occur. They

are just going along on a wing and a prayer at the moment.

MR. J. BYRNE: How many positions are at Come By

Chance, how many jobs out there?

MS. COWAN: (Inaudible).

MS. WAKEHAM: At the moment approximately 600,

700 positions. The number of positions that are there right now I'm not quite

sure, because you have both the direct and the subcontracted at work, right?

MR. J. BYRNE: Say approximately 600 jobs out

there.

MS. COWAN: (Inaudible) keep saying a couple of

hundred, but it is a lot more than that.

MR. J. BYRNE: I thought it was around 300.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Four hundred? Four hundred,

(inaudible).

MS. WAKEHAM: It depends on who is doing the

counting. About 20 per cent of the direct employee with Come By Chance is

subcontracted. So if you include the subcontracted work as opposed to the direct

employees you might be talking 350 to 400 direct in there, you know, and another

200, still direct jobs, yes.

MS. COWAN: I asked Barbara that. Actually it is

Dave's area, but I asked Barbara because when she was in ITT she was around when

they set up, this particular gang set up.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: (Inaudible).

MS. WAKEHAM: Come By Chance has the highest

industrial wage average of any employed jobs in Newfoundland.

MR. J. BYRNE: Run that by me again, please.

MS. WAKEHAM: They have the highest industrial

wage average for jobs in Newfoundland, Come By Chance employees.

MR. J. BYRNE: Sure you know when you are

talking about jobs, I mean, one impacts upon the other, I know. But it is pretty

drastic to have to close them down or something, you know (inaudible).

MS. COWAN: What we would like to see, and if we

don't see this, then we are going to have to just consider where we are going to

go with them. It is difficult in an economy that we have such as ours, and they

filed under the bankruptcy act.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Yes, protection under the bankruptcy

act.

MR. J. BYRNE: (Inaudible) they have done that?

MS. COWAN: Oh yes. What we hope to see is a

continual change in (inaudible) and we have limited, asked them to keep their

emissions at a certain tonnage per year. Really, the only hope out there is that

a new owner will take over. That way the new owner will be in a position to do

the upgrading that needs to be done and to (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Are they making money?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Byrne, your time has expired.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Tulk.

MR. TULK: Following up on what Mr. Byrne said,

that is a question that I've been wanting to ask you, Patt, somewhere else. I

drive by out there too, and I don't think there is anybody in Newfoundland who

won't agree, not even the owners, that the stench is sometimes practically

unbearable. What would be the cost? What has to be done out there in order to

stop that? What kind of cost are we talking about?

MS. COWAN: Millions and millions.

MR. TULK: You just can't walk out there and

say: Alright, we are going to shut this place down. You have 600, 700 jobs that

are directly related to Come By Chance, and God knows, we might have 1,000 or

1,200 that are indirectly related.

MS. COWAN: Tell him what it puts into the

economy. I will ask Barbara again, (inaudible) -

MR. TULK: Here is my question. I've never been

made aware of this, to be quite frank with you. What is the solution to the

problem, and how much would it cost anybody who had to (Inaudible)?

MS. COWAN: It is a -

MR. TULK: Now I know too there is not much

point in going out and spending money if the damn place is going to go bankrupt.

Right?

MS. COWAN: Well, that is it. The new refinery

is what we need. I question the sense of ever having re-opened it. If the thing

had never closed down then the maintenance would have been done, the

environmental improvements that are appropriate for this day and age would have

been gradually done. But the refinery lay there idle for such a long time that

when the new company came in and started up, I mean, they started from scratch.

I think that heavier requirements should have been put on them in the beginning.

If a new company does come in and purchases Come By Chance there will be an

agreement worked out with them through the Department of the Environment and

Lands that is going to put a fair amount of weight on them to get cracking and

get the SO 2 levels down and get some of these other problems -

MR. TULK: The SO 2 level?

MS. COWAN: Yes, but there are other problems

out there too.

MR. TULK: What is that?

MS. WAKEHAM: Sulphur dioxide.

MS. COWAN: The smell. Sulphur dioxide, acid

rain. Then of course there are these smell problems. There is just a multitude

of items. You can't isolate what has to be done out there. There is not one

single thing that can be done and transform the whole place. So it is in

millions. I don't know how many millions. Do you?

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. JEANS: It is 1960s technology, the

refinery. It really needs to be replaced. You are talking hundreds of millions

of dollars.

MS. COWAN: I think they put $40 million into it

to date.

SOME HON. MEMBERS: (Inaudible).

MR. TULK: What kind of crude are they using?

MR. JEANS: Around December they were down to

around 1.1 per cent sulphur crude.

MR. TULK: What does that mean?

MR. JEANS: That is the per cent sulphur which

is (inaudible).

MR. TULK: But is it that good or bad?

MS. COWAN: That is sweet, that is good.

MR. JEANS: That is fairly sweet crude.

MS. COWAN: You see, they did make improvements

for a while and it looked really positive. Because they did start purchasing

sweeter crude, which make a tremendous difference, but then it frittered away

again. Partly it was due to the sulphur recovery unit breaking down. They can

burn a more sour crude if that unit is working because it takes the sulphur and

converts it into sort of a pebbly kind of material. It is bagged and stored.

They have problems with it, see, because it was lying idle for fifteen years,

twenty years, how long?

MR. TULK: I don't recall that being like that

when it was opened originally.

MS. COWAN: In the 1960s?

MR. TULK: Yes.

MS. COWAN: Yes, it may well be that because we

are more conscious of these things now.

MR. TULK: I never smelled the like of it.

AN HON. MEMBER: They used a much sweeter crude

too. Only half a per cent of sulphur.

MR. TULK: Did they? Okay. Tremendous problem.

MS. COWAN: Yes. As Barbara just said, it didn't

operate long enough for us to ever really get a handle on it.

MR. CHAIRMAN: (Inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: You talk about new owners. Is

that being actively pursued, and by whom if it is?

MS. COWAN: Yes. I think that it has been made

public in the newspapers and so on. Vitol is looking at it. Vitol are

world-traders in oil and they are looking for a refinery to purchase. They are

showing some active interest in Come By Chance, but your guess is as good as

mine whether they will be able to carry it through. It is a business decision

for them, obviously.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. Page 92, 3.1.01,

Administration, for Supplies. One hundred and twenty-four thousand one hundred

dollars budgeted, $75,000 spent, $124,100 budgeted.

MS. WAKEHAM: For Supplies?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MS. COWAN: Alright. I will ask Barbara to

elaborate on that.

MS. WAKEHAM: That is the purchase of less maps

from the federal government for resale.

MR. J. BYRNE: So you are planning on buying the

same amount as planned last year.

MS. WAKEHAM: Basically what has happened is

we've had less purchases there and therefore you are showing the same thing on

the revenue stream when you go down further. We've been doing a lot of

digitizing and so we are looking at a different mix of product coming in. So

yes, we are looking at more.

MR. J. BYRNE: The topographical maps that are

there now, I mean, They have gone up in price. Is that why the purchases are

down? Because the price of maps has gone up so much. Topographical maps. I mean,

we are talking about the 1:50000.

MS. WAKEHAM: Yes, but I don't think it is the

actual increase in the cost of the maps themselves. It is just that we've had

less activity because of the economy and less requirement for maps themselves,

so there are less people purchasing maps at this point in time, but we are going

into new digital products next year that we are hoping to be able to use in

place, some of the federal government departments have requested additional

information that were for capital works projects next year so we will be

purchasing more maps.

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay. Now you say you are going

into digital, are those 1:50000 maps, which hunters use and trouters and all

these types of people, ATV users and all these types of people, 1:50,000, will

you have them digitized in the building there?

MS. WAKEHAM: No, we just finished digitizing

the 1:250000 and we have some of the NTS ones at the 1:50,000 level now; we

don't have all of them completed.

MR. J. BYRNE: So the person who goes in when

you have it done and completed, and wants 1:50000 map -

MS. WAKEHAM: What are we going to charge for

it?

MR. J. BYRNE: The price of it is going to be a

fortune. But this is the plan that you would actually have a printout off the

machine than having them stored rather than having them in their cabinets there

and be in the computer and just give them a printout or what? Is that the plan?

MS. WAKEHAM: If in fact we can get the printing

actually done, okay, on the digitized maps that we are printing off now but our

printer is really slow, we need to have an optic oscillator to do that and that

costs $25,000. We have asked Treasury Board, Treasury Board said no, we can't

have it.

MR. J. BYRNE: You must be able to find $25,000

in here somewhere. Anyway, thank you. Next one, 3.1.02, Salaries. How much more

time do I have now because -

MR. CHAIRMAN: You have four minutes now, sir,

then I will recognize Mr. Harris.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you. 3.1.03, page 93,

subsection 12, Information and Technology. You had budgeted $60,000 you spent

$83,000 and you only budgeted $23,500 this year, hardware again?

MS.WAKEHAM: Yes hardware, and basically, the

reason that we are down is that we have completed the most purchases that we

need.

MR. J. BYRNE: Cottage Land Development, 3.2.02,

No.6, Purchased Services, $200,000 budgeted, $85,000 spent, $245,000 budgeted;

that's what?

MS. WAKEHAM: The same problem with not having

enough planners to be able to go out and do the work or not enough planners to

be able to monitor the work of contractors. Basically, we have the same problem

that we have every year. We have five, ten, fifteen different areas that we have

in the various areas of planning and you only have so many bodies to do so much

work.

MR. J. BYRNE: So this money there -

MS.WAKEHAM: $245,000?

MR. J. BYRNE: Is that for, say, surveys or

putting in roads or what is it -

MS. WAKEHAM: It is all the design and routing,

the whole works that need to be done. The reason that we have the $245,000

budgeted again for this year is that we have made a decision that we are going

to try and contract out to the private sector a bunch of the work and basically

put the two planners themselves to do monitoring in terms of reference and

scaling as opposed to trying to do the individual stuff itself.

MR. J. BYRNE: Topographic Mapping, Page 95,

3.3.03.

MS. COWAN: That hasn't completely fallen apart

since you left, Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, I don't know if there is

anything wrong; hopefully you got there, I imagine you did.

MS. WAKEHAM: It takes a year when a new person

goes in to be able to make some changes.

MR. J. BYRNE: To what?

MS. WAKEHAM: It takes a year to get used to the

new department before you can make some changes; you have to learn

MR. J. BYRNE: Oh yes. Good, glad to hear it.

Topographic Mapping, I was looking at Professional Services there, $27,000 and

you spent $67,000 and you are down to $20,000 this year. What are those for?

MS. WAKEHAM: That was a cost-shared project

with Newfoundland Telephone for the production of topographic maps; we decided

that if we haven't got enough money to do all this stuff ourselves that we will

start doing something with the private sector where they are needed.

MR. J. BYRNE: That has been ongoing for a

while. I know Newfoundland Telephone has been after the department for quite a

while to get into this geographic information system and so are you starting to

work on that?

MS. WAKEHAM: We did it.

MR. J. BYRNE: Good, glad to hear it. I have

more questions here so -

MR. CHAIRMAN: Before I recognize Mr. Harris,

Mr. Byrne you pretty well have had a free run for about an hour now; Mr. Harris

has some questions, so with the interjections we get from the other side from

time to time for the quick questions like we had with yours, will we go on with

the ten and ten or would you give Mr. Harris initially a period to catch up?

MR. J. BYRNE: Well, I was just going to ask you

a question. Have you Jack, have you covered it?

MR. HARRIS: I haven't covered it; I haven't

seen this document which no doubt is printed on recyclable paper. I haven't

discussed the program.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I will recognize Mr. Harris.

We'll go ten and ten and then we'll see what you've got. That's the easiest way

to do it to be fair to everybody, and anyone else who wants to cut in, of

course.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

On the last day I was just getting into questions

on the forest industry and expressing the concern that was also expressed by Dr.

Hulan, that is shared by many people in the Province, and that is that there are

forest practices, timber cutting practices, some sanctioned by governments,

others happening on their own, whether they be individuals going and cutting

logs they are not supposed to cut, cutting more logs than they have permits for,

clear-cutting when there is a tremendous debate within ecological and forest

management circles about the costs and benefits of such in the long run, damages

to waterways resulting from that, damage to the ecosystem. Now there was a

general statement made the other day that the forest management plans are

subjected to an environmental review. Can the minister tell us how many plans

have been presented? For what areas? When the reviews were done? What the

process was? And who was involved in it?

MS. COWAN: Since 1981 there have been seven

different projects registered. Now, it was found out that the Environmental

Assessment Act, as it stood, did not really meet the requirements of timber

operations - it just wasn't working - so our department, with the Department of

Forestry and Agriculture, has been working on preparing a generic set of

guidelines for timber management, and that came about when I felt it couldn't go

on any further, when the Roddickton - not Roddickton; where was it in Labrador?

AN HON. MEMBER: Cartwright.

MS. COWAN: Cartwright project was registered, I

felt that we had to come to grips with the problem, so I would not give

permission for that to go ahead until we had a generic set of operational

guidelines. Now that is coming along nicely. They have come back to the

department. Forestry has presented what they felt was an adequate program. We

still don't feel it's quite adequate.

There was contained, within the information that

they gave us, an adaptive management strategy, or an approach, which we thought

was worth pursuing and we've asked them to look into it more and to provide us

with more information on it.

It's very difficult, I guess, to know, when you set

out to harvest a particular forest just what you're going to run into as you go

along, so this will be an adaptive system whereby as different problems are

encountered, say you suddenly run into a Pine Marten nest, what would take place

at that particular time then to deal with the Pine Marten situation, or if you

run into a particular other situation that's difficult.

The whole area, Jack, of harvesting, clear-cutting,

that type of thing, is, as you say, a highly debatable issue. It's one that the

minister is concerned about. We would certainly like to see other types of

equipment used, and I don't want to speak too much for him because that actually

is his area, but Mr. Flight and I quite frequently talk about it and try to

think of ways it could eventually be dealt with, but the questions, actually, on

the clear-cutting are best directed at him. It's just like fisheries is

responsible for its area; each department is responsible for sustainable

development activities in its area. So it's a forestry issue largely but our

department is always there to provide input and will work with - each new

project that is registered will then be subject to the generic guidelines and

will be possessed and so on by our department.

MR. HARRIS: You didn't quite answer my question

but I'll get back to that. Let me say then that it seems that what you're saying

is that the departments view that the department - or is it your view that the

Department of Environment and Lands is not satisfied with the way that the

Department of Forestry and Agriculture has been handling environmental aspects

of forest management?

MS. COWAN: Oh, I couldn't just make a sweeping

statement like that, no.

MR. HARRIS: You said that since 1981 this has

been in the hands of the Department of Forestry and Agriculture and it's only

when the Cartwright Project was put forth did you finally put your foot down and

say that we're not meeting the requirements.

MS. COWAN: I'd say, if anything, that the

Department of Environment and Lands might have been dragging its heels in not

putting it's foot down long ago.

MR. HARRIS: Can you tell me how many people in

your department are involved in overseeing or evaluating the development of

these - I think you called it a generic set of operational requirements? I'm not

sure what the term is.

MS. COWAN: But we've had no dedicated staff. It

would be environmental assessment people who would have that as part of their

workload. Three is it? About three.

MR. HARRIS: So there's three people in the

department who are involved in the environmental assessment.

MS. COWAN: - with forestry.

MR. HARRIS: With forestry. The environmental

assessment, are we looking at Page 89 here? There's several different heads

here; administration, environmental assessment, pesticide control and

monitoring, environmental assessments agreement. Where would these people be

that you're talking about, the three people who are involved in the forestry?

MR. JEANS: Mr. Harris, they'd be the director,

which is in the administrative section, they'd be people in the assessment

branch itself under 2.5:02 and they'd also be somebody in impact management.

MR. HARRIS: So there would be a person in

2.5:02 and someone in impact management?

MR. JEANS: That's correct, they would have

responsibilities in this area as well as other areas.

MR. HARRIS: I understood from the minister they

weren't exclusively - obviously the director wouldn't be exclusively devoted to

that but would certainly have responsibilities. If someone in impact management

and someone in environmental assessment has responsibilities for this as well as

other duties - is there anything that the department has ever put in writing, as

departmental policy or views, with respect to how forest management ought to be

determined?

MR. JEANS: Well not as such I guess, because

the minister has indicated, been involved with forestry in the development of

these generic operating guidelines.

MR. HARRIS: Has the department adopted a model

for generic operating guidelines?

MR. JEANS: The guidelines that have been

produced in conjunction, not only with this department but with other resource

agencies, which is wildlife, are the ones that - have now had public involvement

and input on as well - are the ones that the minister referred to that have been

used for the Cartwright, management district twenty, assessment for review. The

intention is to use - the generic guidelines for most projects may be looked at

on an individual basis and for any impacts outside that covered by the generic

guidelines, there may be additional requirements put to the component, in this

case the Department of Forestry and Agriculture.

MR. HARRIS: These guidelines, are these in the

form of a response from the minister to a proposal saying: here are the

guidelines we want you to follow. Can I get a copy of them for example? Is it a

form that I can have a copy of?

MR. JEANS: I would think so, they've had public

input and consultation. They are Forestry guidelines put out by that department.

MR. HARRIS: They are not put out by the

Department of Environment and Lands.

MR. JEANS: No, but with our endorsement or

input in there.

MR. HARRIS: You are saying that you are now

satisfied that the Forestry guidelines are satisfactory from an environmental

point of view.

MS. COWAN: Well, certainly now, I would never

make that kind of a statement. I think it would be foolhardy. We have a set of

guidelines now which we feel are the best we can develop to this stage. As they

operate over the next few years we may find that they have inadequacies, and I

would suspect from time to time we will have a plan of revisiting them and

seeing if they are still appropriate. Because there is obviously always room for

improvement in anything. But with the knowledge we have at this time we are

satisfied.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harris, your time has

expired. I would recognize Mr. Tulk now.

MR. TULK: Mr. Chairman, perhaps the minister

might like to elaborate on just what it is the department is doing to make

people of the Province more aware of the importance of the environment and so on

in the Province; she might also want to tell me as part of her mandate, what's

happening with car wrecks? They have been an unsightly mess around the Province

where they were, what's happening with car wrecks?

MS. COWAN: To answer your first question, we

don't have the monies to put into public education that I would like to see

available but none of the other provinces have it either. It's a constant battle

between what we need in a technology area say to deal with places like Come by

Chance, whether to put a public education director or something like that into

the department, it's just the decision is always made that while we need the

technologist or whatever. I think that a number of the initiatives that we have

undertaken do give rise to public awareness. ATV legislation for example, has

suddenly made people look at bogs and their significance and that kind of thing.

Now your other question was to do with -

MR. TULK: Car wrecks.

MS. COWAN: Car wrecks. That is proceeding

nicely. I think it is going to take three to five years before we see the

Province really tidied up because, obviously you just can't wave a magic wand

and get every wreck right off the bat. We have three companies that are dealing

with car wrecks so we have given employment as a result of our derelict vehicle

legislation so I am pleased with that. We have a car shredder in Placentia, or

Argentia?

AN HON. MEMBER: Placentia.

MS. COWAN: Placentia. A Labrador crusher and a

crusher in the St. John's area and the market right now is very, very good for

scrap metal so it's proven to be beneficial not only from the environmental

point of view but from an economical point of view as well.

MR. TULK: I would like the minister, if she

could, to tell us what is being done by government generally, since she is

responsible for environment through the school curriculum, because if we are

going to make any lasting change to the environment, obviously one of the things

we have to do is to educate our young people as to the importance of the

environment. Just what is being done in that area?

MS. COWAN: We have, in conjunction with the

Department of Education, developed a text which is quite comprehensive. It's

good reading actually for anybody if you want a quick introduction to all the

environmental problems in the Province, an interesting text. We don't have any

programs that sort of plug in at Kindergarten and carry on throughout the

curriculum into Grade XII which I would like to see eventually, but at the

moment, studies show that the people, when it comes to litter, are the most

problematic in those high school years, but I think that there are a lot of

teachers who are so conscious of environment issues that they are finding ways

to get it into the curriculum. We spent a lot of time in our department going

out to schools. I go out and a public relations person goes out with information

to schools quite frequently; I get lots of letters from kids asking me questions

and so on so it shows that there is an interest out there by the children and by

the teachers in the Province and you are right, it is only through educating

these kids. Actually we need, you and I need more education than probably the

youngsters because they see so much on t.v.

We have put money for example, into the Small

Wonder Program and the under thirteen, an Already Green Program and so on that

been highly successful television programs and awareness awakening among that

under thirteen age group and we will continue to look for opportunities where we

can provide a small amount of funding such as those television programs towards

the cause.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Ms. Young.

MS. YOUNG: Thank you.

I want to congratulate the minister on all the

initiatives that she has undertaken in her term of office. I did serve on the

Premier's Round Table on the Environment and Economy and it was a very

interesting time when we looked at how we could best accommodate business and in

the meantime protect the environment. I am pleased to say though that I am not

sitting on the Round Table any longer because it was very demanding with my

duties as an MHA, it would have taken up a considerable amount of my time.

I am looking here at page 90, 2.5.03, Pesticides

Control and Monitoring. I understand that there is some work going on with

agriculture in that area, and I am very pleased that we have two departments

working cooperatively because pesticides were used indiscriminately over the

years and I am sure that if we could check back over some of the health records

of the farmers that certainly the implications of improper use of insecticides,

pesticides, probably contributed to some of the health problems. As well, they

were damaging to the environment; people were washing out their equipment in

brooks and rivers.

This is just wonderful to see, that you have now

taken it upon yourselves to educate the farmers as to how to use this properly.

I understand there are regulations providing for at least one person on a farm

to be educated in that area, and there are restrictions on who can buy

insecticides and pesticides. How much cooperation does go on between the

different departments?

MS. COWAN: It's good, and I think it's getting

better and better because every department is realizing that they have their own

responsibilities when it comes to environmental issues, not only sustainable

development but of some of these other health\safety issues that you mention. So

it's progressing. I think you will find the environment department is probably -

no, I'm not even going to say that because I've met some pretty committed

forestry people, for example, but we sort of like to think would be in the

forefront of encouraging this kind of interaction, and I think there has been a

major change over the last four or five years, and partly it's due to questions

that have been asked by people on the Round Table and that kind of thing that

has been helping that.

MS. YOUNG: Again, probably I should go back to

the Round Table. I haven't had a chance to look over the people who have been

appointed. I just briefly glanced to look at where these people come from

geographically. It's important to have a good mix there, rural people as well as

urban people, and I am sure the minister has looked into that.

The other thing, too, I sat on the Discovery Trail

Tourism Association and there we were pleased to learn that there is a

sustainable tourism brochure, or a report.

MS. COWAN: That was developed and produced, set

out last year around this time, I believe.

MS. YOUNG: In cooperation with your department,

no doubt.

MS. COWAN: Yes, both the then minister and

myself went to the press conference.

MS. YOUNG: Your position is probably one of -

of course they are all demanding, but yours is such a controversial area because

you have the people who get on their hobby-horse and they're going to protect

everything that's out there, and then you also have to deal with the people who

are trying to make a living from the land.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. YOUNG: Yes. You're caught between the rock

and the hard place because you have a certain group here saying: No we can't do

anything at all, and then we have to look at the economy, and it's a very, very

difficult position to be in. How do you balance all this? I know that's a loaded

question.

MS. COWAN: How do I deal with stress? Well, it

is a very difficult question. What we have been doing, I like to be able to take

the environment side, so when we get into a situation where we have to balance

it with outside environmental assessment, let's say, because environmental

assessment is a different kettle of fish here, but say where we're looking at -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Okay, what we do - for example, when

it came to what we would do about bottle legislation, whether we would have

refund deposit registration, it was decided in Cabinet that the best thing to

do, rather than leave it entirely in my hands, because I wanted to be able to

look at it as an environmental issue, that the Minister of Industry, Trade and

Technology would become involved so he could look at the impact on business, and

then Tourism was there as well, so then we could all put our heads together at

the end - I chaired the committee - and come up with something that we felt was

satisfactory to present to government that would balance everybody's needs.

It's a constant weighing of demands, but I try to

see that our department takes a totally environmental view, and if we want to

bring in other views then they come from other departments with maybe a

different mandate.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, minister.

It is now 10:30 a.m. so I think we will have a

formal break and let everybody stand around and be sociable for a few minutes. I

will call the meeting back in about ten minutes time and then we will get on. I

will be recognizing Mr. Byrne and then Mr. Harris when we come back. Now we'll

have a little break.

Recess

MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please!

I recognize Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

It says here under Environment and Lands, three

points. Funding of $150,000 has been provided for the development of a Waste

Management Strategic Plan for the Province.

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: I would like for you to expand on

that and give some details. Is that linked with the plan or the study that is

being done now in the northeast Avalon with respect to Robin Hood Bay and the

waste disposal on the northeast Avalon?

MS. COWAN: That has been in put in place and been

ongoing for a while. I imagine the waste management strategy is going to look at

that as well.

MR. J. BYRNE: When do you expect a complete and

full report from the northeast Avalon study that is being done, the

recommendations or whatever?

MS. COWAN: The end of this year.

MR. J. BYRNE: The preliminary hearings are

supposed to be advertised. Are you having them now?

MS. COWAN: Yes. Where are we with the public

hearings? I know they are on. Are they finished?

MR. JEANS: Public hearings? Which public hearings?

MR. J. BYRNE: Northeast Avalon. A study being done

for the waste disposal in northeast Avalon. I thought it was done.

MR. JEANS: No, there haven't been public hearings

organized in connection with this initiative.

MS. COWAN: But no, the regional one.

MR. JEANS: The regional one. I'm sorry, I can't

tell you the status of that. It is not our department's initiative.

MS. COWAN: I can check that for you, Jack.

MR. J. BYRNE: Next point. Staff increases have

been approved for industrial monitoring and compliance with environmental

assessments and for the enforcement of the regulations respecting the use of

all-terrain vehicles: $366,000. Can you tell me the number of extra staff that

has been employed to enforce the regulations with respect to ATV regulations?

MS. COWAN: We are employing four people, for

enforcement. They are to help people design trails, okay, and to provide input

in that particular area. Check the trails, see if they are appropriate, and that

kind of thing.

MR. J. BYRNE: Barb. With respect to job loss.

There is one company I know here in St. John's that had something like thirty

people employed, and since these regulations were announced last fall they are

down to nine. That is a fair cut in staff, you know what I mean?

I agree that there should be regulations from Day 1. I

had problems with certain regulations and the way it was implemented, right? Did

you give any consideration to that, about the job loss in the industry?

MS. COWAN: Certainly. That is one of the reasons

why we just chose the most sensitive areas in the Province and we didn't bring

in a total ban. Also, we've gone out of our way to make sure that there are

opportunities for people to still have access to the wilderness but to do it in

a responsible manner. We certainly did take that into account.

You can't just say that the person has lost employees

due to the ATV regulations. There could be other things operating in a

recessionary climate. I also know that that particular individual sold his quota

as the manufacturer set for him and was given a trip as a result of it. I don't

think that he suffered tremendously. I'm sorry that three people lost their jobs

but I wouldn't say it was ATV -

MR. J. BYRNE: Three?

MS. COWAN: What did you say? From twelve to nine,

was it?

MR. J. BYRNE: From thirty-odd people down to nine

or something.

MS. COWAN: That sounds drastic. I can't imagine

it.

MR. J. BYRNE: That is one company, but I know of

another also.

MS. COWAN: But anyway, you know, the thing is that

the potential cost to the Province and to employment and everything down the

road could be horrendous if we don't put a stop to it. I certainly would not

want to see anybody impacted. I hope the ATV hasn't had that kind of impact. It

may have some, who knows. We will see as the time goes down the road. I'm hoping

that it won't, that we will have a nice network of trails around the Province.

People will still buy ATVs and enjoy the wilderness, but do it in a responsible

manner.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Yes, it could be a blip. It may have

been. There are all sorts of reasons I suppose it could be, but we will see what

happens as time passes.

MR. J. BYRNE: Let's say it had a major impact

anyway on job losses.

MS. COWAN: Something did, anyway.

MR. J. BYRNE: Anyway, with respect to the

education program that was announced two days before the regulations came into

effect, how much money was allotted or set aside for that? What was the budget?

MS. COWAN: Fifty-six thousand dollars.

MR. J. BYRNE: Fifty-six thousand dollars. Not a

lot of money when you consider the cost of TV ads, is it?

MS. COWAN: It's not a lot. It's certainly a lot

more then we normally have to put into programs. I think we'll evaluate it,

obviously we'll evaluate it at the end, it's part of every program and if we

feel there's need for more educational programs I will try to get the money for

it. Of course I can't guarantee I'll get it but I'll try and put the case

forward. Of course it was going to be a length of time anyway for it was winter

and not having the education program quite ready by the first of March - you

know it would have been better ready for the first of March but it wasn't.

There's still time for people to be educated before the real use of ATVs will

come on this summer.

MR. J. BYRNE: I won't belabour that, time is going

by. I believe that those regulations are going to cause problems that we haven't

seen yet and will come to light this summer and this fall. In the meantime Barb,

I asked you maybe three or four weeks ago a question with respect to the Highway

Traffic Act and you were going to -

MS. WAKEHAM: Which?

MR. J. BYRNE: A question with respect to the

Highway Traffic Act?

MS. WAKEHAM: Oh yes.

MR. J. BYRNE: You were going to get a letter to me

so I - people are phoning me and asking me which is in effect, the Highway

Traffic Act or these regulations - I want something to say -

MS. WAKEHAM: Yes and I asked the Department of

Justice to provide me with an opinion on whether or not one statute over-rode

another set of regulations and I have yet to see an opinion in writing from

Justice which I have asked for five times.

MS. COWAN: Maybe I better go to the Minister.

MS. WAKEHAM: My understanding right now, based on

my own discussions with Justice, with the Legislative Council and this is why

it's complicated, the RCMP and the RNC are the only two groups that are allowed

to enforce a Highway Traffic Act. ATVs are not licensed under the Highway

Traffic Act, only motor vehicles are licensed under the Highway Traffic Act. My

understanding is, both from my discussions with some RCMP and RNC officers, that

they are trained to interpret the situation and decide which piece of

legislation is most appropriate in the situation. The enforcement officers, the

peace officers as are defined within the ATV regulations, with the exception of

RNC and the RCMP, are not qualified to enforce the Highway Traffic Act. They

only qualify to enforce the ATV regulations. The difficulty is - and you

mentioned it to me on the phone - is with respect to (inaudible). I have been

told that a specific provision under the ATV regulation supersedes a general

provision under a statute. So I am still waiting for something in writing before

I get back to you because I had promised you to do that.

MS. COWAN: That's something we need to know to.

MR. J. BYRNE: But from my perspective I thought

this was something that would have been and should have been worked out before

the regulations came into effect and is one of the problems inherent in those

regulations.

MS. WAKEHAM: In all due respect to Justice, I am

not a lawyer and therefore I don't make these decisions. My understanding from

Justice at the time these regulations were put in place was that the highways

act would be enforced by the RCMP and the RNC in that it was a case of - those

people were trained to enforce those regulations, to decide what the situation

is and to determine which piece of legislation was appropriate in that

particular case. We were told at the time that what we had in place, with

respect to civic regulations under the resource act, was appropriate. I mean

lawyers will tell you that there are many

interpretations of the legislation.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to that though, when I

do get something from you, from Justice or whoever, I would like for it to be

quite definitive, not maybe this and maybe that and the story you people just

gave.

MS. COWAN: Jack don't speak to Barbara like that

please, speak to me like that. She's my employee if you want to (inaudible).

MR. J. BYRNE: Okay, I didn't think I was abusive

or anything like that, I apologize for it. That's just my personality but what

I'm asking for is something quite clear and definitive on that issue.

MS. WAKEHAM: Yes, and that's what we're hoping to

give you.

MR. CHAIRMAN: I'll now recognize Mr. Harris.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you, Chair. The Member for Terra

Nova was asking questions about the Environmental Round Table, I guess it's the

Round Table on the Environment and Economy, can the minister tell us how often

that Round Table group has met in the last year?

MS. COWAN: No, I can't tell you. Sorry, I don't

have the information right with me, I don't know. In this current calendar year?

MR. HARRIS: In the last twelve months, I guess.

MS. COWAN: I don't recall if it -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Three or four times?

MR. HARRIS: It has met three or four times, has

it?

MS. COWAN: Yes, that is why it is a little

difficult, because I just heard the Member for Terra Nova saying, there have

been sub-committee meetings going on outside the formal committee meetings. Once

the sustainable development issue was organized and planned by the Round Table

they provided then the opportunity for a lot of other groups outside of the

Round Table which aren't represented on it to come and make presentations to

areas that they had a particular interest in. If they were looking at

sustainable development in forestry then different groups with an interest were

invited to come and make a presentation.

MR. HARRIS: Have there been any reports prepared

or adopted by the Round Table?

MS. COWAN: A yearly report goes to the Premier -

it is his committee - on the activities of the Round Table. Their function is

strictly an advisory one to the Premier. It is not anything else.

MR. HARRIS: Have these reports gone anywhere else?

Have they been made public?

MS. COWAN: They have not been made public, have

they?

AN HON. MEMBER: I don't believe so.

MS. COWAN: As far as I know they haven't been made

public. That decision would rest with the Premier.

MR. HARRIS: How many employees are related to

that? I see under 1.2.03 $121,000 for Salaries, down from a budget of last year

of $156,000. How many employees would be -

MS. COWAN: We have two giving half-time, Jack.

MR. HARRIS: Two half-time employees for a total of

$121,000?

MS. COWAN: They have a secretary as well.

MR. HARRIS: This is page 82. I don't know where it

is in the other....

MS. COWAN: Anyway, the two half-time and a

secretary. Is there any money built in there for any consultation services,

Frank?

MR. F. HARRIS: No.

MS. COWAN: No. Okay. We do, Jack, contract out as

well from time to time to get information that we need. The University has done

some work for us.

MR. HARRIS: Yes. There is $21,000 there for

Purchased Services. This is for reports that are not made public, to date.

MS. COWAN: There hasn't been a great hue and cry

for it, I must say.

MR. HARRIS: Pardon?

MS. COWAN: As far as I'm aware there haven't been

people lining up to get it, you know.

MR. HARRIS: We are spending $189,000 or proposing

to spend $189,000 on it. I'm in the line-up to see whether that $189,000 is

being well spent. I want to ask the minister whether she can tell us what the

results of this Round Table on the Environment and the Economy have been. It has

been in the budget now for several years.

MS. COWAN: They are developing now a report on

sustainable development. I don't think you measure these things in results right

off the bat. It takes a while for a group like that to get itself settled in. I

mean, like concrete results. I think the actual dialogue that has gone on has

been extremely valuable. We've got some key people from around the Province on

this board. This study on sustainable development is a two-, three- perhaps even

a four-year project.

MR. HARRIS: When did it start?

MS. COWAN: About a year and a half ago.

MR. HARRIS: The aim of this group is to produce a

definitive report on sustainable development, is that the idea?

MS. COWAN: I don't know what you mean by

definitive.

MR. HARRIS: Well, I -

MS. COWAN: Is it going to be the be-all and the

end-all for the -

MR. HARRIS: - suppose -

MS. COWAN: - sustainable development problems in

the world? I don't think so.

MR. HARRIS: There have been models for sustainable

development. The Bruntlind commission did a very comprehensive world view of the

notion of sustainable development. It seems to me that I don't think we are

going to be competing with that for producing a report. That might have taken

two or three years to develop but I am just trying to get a handle here on why

we are spending this money and whether or not this information is going to be

accessible to the public because we are being asked to vote $189,000 for this

environmental Round Table so can the minister say when this report will be

available.

MS. COWAN: No, I can't say when it will be ready

for presentation to the Premier. It is a framework Jack, that they are setting

up for sustainable development within the Province so the very nature of the

package as a framework should limit the amount of time has to go into it.

MR. HARRIS: Who is in charge of this Round Table?

You said they send reports to the Premier, but who calls the meetings?

MS. COWAN: The meetings are called by the Chair.

MR. HARRIS: And who is the Chair?

MS. COWAN: Judy Raoul. Judy Raoul works with the

LIA and is situated in Nain. She has quite an extensive background in

environmental work.

MR. HARRIS: Okay.

MS. COWAN: She is the new Chair now.

MR. HARRIS: Yes, and who are the half-time

positions who are there now?

MS. COWAN: You want the names or the people?

MR. HARRIS: Well I presume that there are

particular positions in your department who are assigned responsibility for the

Environmental Round Table.

MS. COWAN: (Inaudible).

MR. HARRIS: Who are they?

MS. COWAN: Director of Policy and Planning is the

one individual and the other individual, I don't know what his title is, he

works as a sort of assistant.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: He works as an analyst; okay, a policy

analyst.

MR. HARRIS: So there is a Director of Policy and

Planning and there is a policy analyst as well?

AN HON. MEMBER: And a secretary.

MR. HARRIS: Pardon?

AN HON. MEMBER: And a secretary.

MR. HARRIS: And a secretary; so the secretary is a

full time position and the Director of Policy and Planning and the policy

analyst are half-time positions, so half of their time is devoted to this

particular activity. Do these people report to Judy Raoul or do they report to

you as minister, with respect to their duties?

MS. COWAN: Oh no, they don't report to me. I am a

member of the committee without any particular status as the minister, I am just

there.

MR. HARRIS: You are a member of the Round Table?

MS. COWAN: Yes.

MR. HARRIS: So then, you could tell us what the

deadline, what the time frame is for -

MS. COWAN: No, I can't.

MR. HARRIS: You can't?

MS. COWAN: I can't, no. If it's there I have

forgotten but, you know, I will double check it for you, Jack.

MR. HARRIS: So the whole committee has met three

or four times in the last year and produces an annual report to the Premier

which is not made public?

MS. COWAN: To date it hasn't been made public, no.

MR. HARRIS: Is there a reason why it is not made

public, is it a secret -

MS. COWAN: Well I mean, it is looked at as an

internal document you know, I don't think it is a matter of great secrecy; I

could certainly look into the fact of whether or not we could make it available

publicly. To date, as I said, people haven't requested it so it is not an issue

that we have had to deal with, and it is advice to the Premier and advice to the

Premier is not normally made public, but I can certainly check with him to see

if he (inaudible).

MR. HARRIS: Well, please consider this as a formal

request for a copy of the annual reports of the Round Table on the Environment

and the Economy. Some of these things have a way of surfacing down the road and

sometimes we sit in on debates and people quoting lines from various things, so

it is nice to have them in advance so you know what you are talking about.

A question for the Member for Terra Nova. Again, there

seems to be inherent in her questions some sort of total dichotomy between

making a living off the land and having a sustainable environment. Is that the

way the minister sees it, as a competition between people who want to do nothing

to anything and people who are just trying to make a living? Is that the way the

minister views the questions that arise in environment - or does the minister

believe that it is important that when we do make a living off the land that the

land remains intact for future generations?

MS. COWAN: I think you are putting words in her

mouth. I am going to try and remain gracious because I do not think there is any

need for that. I do not want to get into a fight with you about it but I

certainly did not hear the Member for Terra Nova saying that. She is extremely

conscious of environmental issues and would not dream of saying such a thing.

MR. HARRIS: Well, I did get my ears tested the

other day but that was for the level of hearing and not for when I did hear

something that I heard it correctly. I heard the member say that there were

those who wanted to do nothing and those who were trying to make a living from

the land, and the minister was moved to reply that you came down on the side of

the environment, so I am not going to rehash the case.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Harris, your time has expired

and I now recognize Mr. Byrne.

MR. J. BYRNE: I have a few questions on the

anti-litter campaign, the Canadian Soft Drink Association. You may have covered

this earlier, yesterday or whenever, but I have a note here, why is the overall

program by the CSDA not just soft drink bottles because I am associating this

with the legislation that was never brought in in term of the bottles type of

thing. Why would the Canadian Soft Drink Association be funding the whole

program for materials other than related to just soft drinks?

MS. COWAN: They are not. There are two prongs to

the program, a two-prong program. The Canadian Soft Drink Association is working

with the Canadian Packaging and Stewardship Initiative and they are going to be

putting money into it as well, but at this point the Canadian Soft Drink

Association sees it in their best interest to put money into the education

program.

MR. J. BYRNE: To put $2 million into the education

program.

MS. COWAN: Is it $2 million?

MR. J. BYRNE: Yes.

MS. COWAN: They are hoping that the idea will

catch on. It seemed to do this very successfully in the state of Texas where

they found other people clamouring to come on board because they wanted their

corporate stamp on it as well so they could be associated with it. We are

looking forward that perhaps other groups around the Province will get involved

with it as well, not necessarily packaging people. I do not mean that because

they are involved with the CIPSI program, but some of the other people with

money in business.

MR. J. BYRNE: I think when this was announced in

the media, when you made your address, whatever, the public got the idea that

the Canadian Soft Drink Association were paying the $2 million for the education

program but in actual fact they were putting one cent a can on the product so

the public in actual fact are paying for this program?

MS. COWAN: Well, obviously it is business, you

know, so they are, but if we had put a deposit refund on it, it probably would

have been a good deal more than one cent, so it still not a lot to ask. It will

be applied to a good cause and when studies are done of people they do not mind

putting a modest amount of money into programs that are going to work.

MR. J. BYRNE: I know that people do not mind, and

I personally would not mind myself paying extra for a Province clean-up type of

thing, but basically what I am saying is that it is a bit misleading when people

think that the Canadian Soft Drink Association is paying for this out of their

own pockets when they are not.

MS. COWAN: Well, it could well be, and we as a

society have been trained to think that everybody else will look after us.

MR. J. BYRNE: With respect to the criteria in

place for the effect, now how long will you let this go on before you say, okay,

we see some positive results here or we are not getting positive results

therefore we will bring in legislation?

MS. COWAN: In two years and four years. We will

examine this CSDA and hire an individual to do a benchmark type study in the

Province so we know the state of litter in the Province today, and in two years

they will hire a third party to do the same study based on the same scientific

methodology and see if there is a reduction, report it to us, and then we will

decide if it is satisfactory or not. Then at the end of the four year period

there will be a total evaluation again when we want to meet certain levels.

I think they said they can bring it down by 70 per

cent in the four years.

MR. J. BYRNE: How much?

MS. COWAN: By 70 per cent. That is general litter.

MR. J. BYRNE: So, if they do not bring it down by

70 per cent, say if they bring it down by 35 per cent?

MS. COWAN: Well, obviously it has not worked. Then

we will have to reach into our hip pocket and find something else.

MR. J. BYRNE: The awards program will be sponsored

by the city or town to recognize outstanding organization by the people who will

get involved in this type of thing. Is there going to be anything put in place

that will actually recognize the cities or the municipalities, whatever, that

promote this?

MS. COWAN: Certainly they are working closely with

the municipalities. The program is largely left up to CSDA and CIPSI, the

packaging people, to work out. My department's input into the actual program is

somewhat limited. We've just said: It looks like a good idea. They've shown

enough of it to us to impress us that they can do something. I haven't examined

every facet of their program but I do know that they are very anxious to get

municipalities involved. Because they realize that - see, one of the parts of

the program is aimed at waste reduction. We really want municipalities involved.

They have been out already meeting with municipalities as you may be aware

across the Province and trying to get them involved.

I think I'm going to have them come in and speak to

our caucus. I'm sure they would be available to talk to your caucus. That would

be the best place to ask that particular question.

MR. J. BYRNE: In reading this report, or this

presentation, the general perception out there is that Newfoundlanders have

garbage going everywhere type of thing, but in the clear-cut areas we are one of

the cleaner provinces.

MS. COWAN: Yes, that was sort of pleasing to hear,

because we tend to have a sort of bad feeling about ourselves in everything. But

we still have a long way to go. They must be really bad in other parts of

Canada.

MR. J. BYRNE: I'm clued up with my questions. I

would just like to make a comment that I've asked a fair number of questions and

I like getting good, direct, complete answers. I think Frank has done a good job

on that, and I appreciate the answers from the minister. I'm sure I will be

asking lots more in the House next session.

MS. COWAN: Thank you, Jack, for coming along. I

appreciate it, and certainly your questions have given some rise to some

thoughts for me for the future.

MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Byrne. Mr. Harris.

MR. HARRIS: Thank you. I wanted to raise the issue

of this program in the context of the Waste Management Strategic Plan that is

now being funded to the tune of $150,000. I know that this organization that the

Canadian Soft Drink Manufacturers Association has created is talking about waste

reduction. I'm wondering: What about the 15 per cent of our landfill material

that comes from beverage containers? Does the minister expect that will be

reduced or eliminated? Does the minister plan to have the Waste Management

Strategic Plan deal with that issue in terms of the -

MS. COWAN: Of reduction?

MR. HARRIS: - possibilities of getting rid of the

majority of that 15 per cent of the garbage that now ends up in landfills?

MS. COWAN: We are going to have to make a study

and just see exactly - this is why we want to do this base study and $150,000

has been given to us this year. We've got a lot of problems in waste management,

Mr. Harris, in this Province, and beverage containers is probably the least of

them. I'm talking now in terms not of what appears in our ditches and that kind

of thing, but what goes into the actual waste fill sites.

Our major problem I guess would be, in trying to

address your question, is how at this moment we deal with waste generally in

this Province. Will we move to a regional way of dealing with it; will we allow

incinerators to be built; or if we do, what type of incinerators will they be,

how many incinerators are we going to have in the Province? We have to leave

municipalities to organize their landfills and so on in an appropriate fashion

because there are really few municipalities that are now - everything is a

jumble; it just gets dumped into a dump. They're really dumps; they're not

sanitary landfills.

We've got significant problems in this Province

because of our geography. We don't have enough topsoil to have sanitary

landfills, so we're going to be addressing a large number of issues, and if that

survey shows again that what you're saying is a real problem then I am sure they

will make recommendations to us, but there are a lot of other things; like

construction materials are a real problem. We should be encouraging composting.

Do we want to have municipalities composting? There are just a lot of ways to

reduce what goes into our landfills.

MR. HARRIS: I understand the strategic problems,

and I recognize that there are a lot of strategic problems in terms of

organizing waste management. One of the ways, and it's part of the three r's

that the minister occasionally talks about, to reduce the amount of waste that

goes into waste sites, whether they be garbage dumps or sanitary landfills or

whatever, I find it disconcerting that the minister would suggest the fact that

15 per cent of the landfill refuse is, in fact, soft drink containers, that

that's the least of the problems. I find that disconcerting if the minister sees

that in a different category, but I do understand the other problems.

I want to get into statistics here because sometimes

when you raise this issue of refillable containers, for example, or having a

deposit refund system, the first thing you hear about it is, well, it's going to

cost jobs. Perhaps the minister could tell us what information was provided to

the committee that she sat on in terms of the costs to the economy of jobs that

would be lost. Was there any indication given that there would be a certain

number of specific jobs, or specific plants that would close, or people who

would be gone?

MS. COWAN: Well the Canadian Soft Drink

Association will tell you that if you bring in a deposit refund system that they

will immediately lose ground from a business point of view and it will lead to

lay-offs because people will turn to different types of beverages to drink

rather than soft drinks, so they see that as a problem.

MR. HARRIS: This is like jobs in Halifax making

Coca Cola?

MS. COWAN: Or jobs in Newfoundland with the local

soft drink company. We only have one soft drink place or containerization place

or whatever.

MR. HARRIS: Could you tell us how many jobs would

be lost at that one place if...?

MS. COWAN: Oh, I don't know how many people work

at Browning Harvey - 250 or 300, something like that.

MR. HARRIS: I didn't ask you how many people

worked at Browning Harvey, because -

MS. COWAN: Well, they're the only place in the

Province that does bottling.

MR. HARRIS: I didn't ask how many worked there. I

asked you: Did anyone tell you how many jobs would be lost?

MS. COWAN: No, I don't have an exact figure on

that.

MR. HARRIS: Has the government considered that

issue as an important one, or is it something that is just another one of the

arguments? Was that an important issue?

MS. COWAN: First of all, there is one other thing

I want to address because you made an erroneous statement there at first, and I

want to clarify it, about landfills.

One of the reasons that we did not totally go with the

Canadian Soft Drink Association, we would have not gone on it as a stand-alone

way to deal with litter and management of waste disposal sites in the Province.

The only way we would go with it was with the cooperation of the packaging

group, because that is the reduction aspect of it, and they will be looking for

other markets.

MR. HARRIS: But they're not cooperating, are they?

MS. COWAN: Yes, they're cooperating - indeed they

are - or we would never have gone ahead with the announcement that we made last

week or the week before. They are cooperating. We are expecting a business plan

from them in the fall, and they are going to be the ones who are going to start

developing with the municipalities recycling programs. They are going to look

for markets for us so that the various soft drink containers that are put out,

whatever method they use for collecting these, they will be recycled wherever

possible. It is not just a method of it all going into landfills. As you know,

the recycling industry is driven by the demands of the marketplace, so it

depends what is particularly buoyant at the time. Right now there is not a

market for plastic, for example.

MR. HARRIS: So there was no study done by the

government to determine specifically how many jobs might be lost in that

particular industry or in that particular plan.

MS. COWAN: No, but we also looked, Mr. Harris, at

the impact on small business. ITT did do a survey of small businesses around the

Province to see - we have a lot of small convenience stores and that kind of

thing - how this was going to affect them. They felt that it would have a real

impact on their ability to be viable. Because they are going to have to enlarge

their premises and there are all kinds of problems and things of that nature.

MR. HARRIS: This is if they were required to

accept deposits.

MS. COWAN: Pardon?

MR. HARRIS: This is if they were required by

government to accept refunds.

MS. COWAN: With the deposit-refund system, yes.

MR. HARRIS: Did the minister have a study done of

how many jobs would be created by having a refillable or recyclable

deposit-refund system, what that would do to the economy in terms of creating

jobs and job opportunities in green jobs, we will call them that.

MS. COWAN: Because again so many of these jobs are

dependent on the marketplace. You can't predict that suddenly there is going to

be great demand for plastic containers or whatever. We do know that there is a

tremendous demand for paper and it was very important for us to bring the

newspaper industry aboard in connection with this.

MR. HARRIS: Can we get back to beverage

containers? Because this seems to be the area in which throughout the country

and in the United States governments, when they've taken action, have been able

to get a handle on the waste, with a 98 per cent return on beer bottles, for

example, or over 90 per cent on others. It seems that is an area where

governments can take some action, setting up a system that eliminates as much as

15 per cent of the waste that goes to landfills, and at the same time, in my

view, create jobs in fact, and green jobs, or green employment I think it is

called in some places. That incentives are there for people to look after the

environment and look after themselves.

MS. COWAN: Mr. Chairman, may I make a point of

order?

MR. CHAIRMAN: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: Point of order, please. I'm certainly

only too happy, I have the patience of a saint, but I have answered all of these

questions last night. If you want me to answer them again I'm only too happy to

do so, because I feel that what we are doing as a government is very important.

But is there any kind of situation here where we have to answer the same

questions that were asked the night before and possibly go on for months?

MR. CHAIRMAN: Minister, I will let Mr. Harris

speak to the point of order.

MR. HARRIS: To the point of order, I will speak to

the point of order. My question is: Did the minister do any studies in terms of

job gains and job losses?

MS. COWAN: I was quite happy to address that.

MR. HARRIS: That is what I suggested. Given the

fact that there are advantages in terms of green jobs that are on the other end

- the industry might talk about potential job losses, and I'm not even sure

where that comes in, but -

MS. COWAN: To that -

MR. HARRIS: - that is why I'm asking whether the

minister has done any studies. I'm not asking her to defend the soft drink

industry. I'm asking her whether her department in making its decision about

what approach to take, whether the minister did any studies on the

job gains that would be there, if you had an incentive

system for beverage containers, recycling and using refillable deposit refund

systems?

MS. COWAN: That was not the last question. Well to

continue to the point of order, I was only to happy to answer that question

because it wasn't the one asking for new information it was the one regarding

other governments actions which I thought I dealt with. I know he doesn't like

the answer but -

MR. CHAIRMAN: The only thing minister is, really

to the point of order, there's no point of order because I think in committee

you can ask questions as much as you like. They might not like the answers but I

think they can continue to ask questions and of course some time this committee

will come to a conclusion albeit, if we run out of time or if the heads are

passed then that's it. As far as asking a question, there's no point of order.

MS. COWAN: Yes fine, Mr. Chair, I'm quite

comfortable with that decision.

MR. HARRIS: Now I guess I'll have to ask the

question again.

MS. COWAN: About other governments?

MR. HARRIS: No, I said we know that where other

governments have introduced these plans they've produced tremendous reductions

in contributions to landfill waste and they've also generated jobs, green jobs.

So I wanted to know whether or not the minister and the government in making

this decision did a study that would compare the potential - and I only say

potential job losses because I don't know exactly where these jobs are supposed

to be lost in Browning Harvey or wherever - as opposed to the benefits in terms

of jobs for those who would be involved in collecting, recycling and refilling

these containers for those that are refillable, recycling for those that are

recyclable because as I say and I have to preface this because there's a lot of

study that has been done on this, it seems to be clear that even when there's a

recycling program only 20 per cent of beverage containers are actually being

collected. So if you have a system that provides incentives and give incentives

for refillable containers and provides a system like that, my understanding is

that there would be job gains. Now the minister may have a different view and I

ask whether or not the department did any studies and whether those studies

could be made available comparing the job losses that are suggested versus the

job gains that might be available?

MS. COWAN: I don't have a study -

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MS. COWAN: If you have reports from other

provinces, if you could substantiate that, if you have material you could

provide to me on it, I'd certainly be interested in looking at it. We all know

that there is definitely an opportunity for green industries. They could come

from all different sources. Consulting, for example, in the environmental

atmosphere now has become a very lucrative area to be in. I couldn't and I don't

know whether there are studies in fact that would show just exactly what happens

because every province has such a different way of going about it that it would

be very difficult to compare and see what program would produce more jobs in the

green, how that would balance out against what they lost in non-green and that

kind of thing. So I think it would be very, very difficult information to gather

together but certainly if you have any Jack, I'd be delighted to -

MR. HARRIS: Well let me say to you, minister, that

when I brought up this issue to another minister I heard a response which was;

we would lose 100 jobs. So I'm wondering whether that figure is a figure that

you're department has generated, whether it's based on a study or whether it's

just based on anecdotal comments by the owner of Browning Harvey?

MS. COWAN: My department doesn't generate

statistics on unemployment. We try to look at things from the environmental

viewpoint at all times and that's why Industry, Trade and Technology were

invited to come on board to provide that particular information. I have never

heard the figure of 100 jobs. I don't know who you've talked to or anything. I

can't comment on that.

MR. HARRIS: What you are saying basically then is

that the department or the government has done no studies on the employment

positives or negatives that would come out of a deposit-refund system.

MS. COWAN: Well, no, we haven't done any actual

studies. I think it is only good sense to realize that there would be immediate

job loss. We have felt there would be modest employment, but again it is all

market driven. I can't, nor can anyone else, predict what is going to happen in

the marketplaces.

MR. HARRIS: So the minister is making an

assumption that if you fill up a container more than once there will be

immediate job losses.

MS. COWAN: No, I'm not making that assumption.

MR. HARRIS: That is what I'm hearing you say. That

it only makes sense that if you have a refillable deposit-refund system there

would be a job loss. I'm just wondering what the minister bases that on, because

that is not immediately obvious to me.

MS. COWAN: I didn't say that. That is all I have

to say on that, Mr. Chairman.

MR. HARRIS: Okay. I think we have the answers

though as to whether or not there were studies.

The minister I'm sure must be aware of some of the

activities of organizations such as FLOW, I think is one, Friends and Lobbyists

of the Waterford River. There is another group in St. John's that is involved in

the Virginia River clean up. Obviously the Quidi Vidi-Rennies River foundation

has been very active as well. I want to say to the minister firstly that I think

these projects are tremendously important, both inherently because they actually

do clean up these rivers and re-divert sewage that is not supposed to be going

into them into the proper sewers and various other things, but they also have a

tremendous synergistic effect on residents, certainly of St. John's in this

particular instance, or visitors to the City, in recognizing that the

environment is part of the City as well as part of the countryside. It does

encourage a lot of people to get involved and care about how we treat the

environment and therefore ourselves, because we have to live in it.

To what level of involvement is the minister's

department in some of these activities? Is there a program that assists them in

any way?

MS. COWAN: We provided a tremendous amount of

money. How much was it?

AN HON. MEMBER: Two hundred and fifty thousand to

Quidi Vidi.

MS. COWAN: Two hundred and fifty thousand to the

Quidi Vidi group, because it was the first one sort of off the ground. We gave

that money out to them over a period of four or five years. That funding has now

ended. At this point we are only too happy to give any in-kind services we can

to any of these groups, but happy to report the excellent work that has been

done by these groups in St. John's that is being now emulated by people across

the Province. I'm familiar with the Manuels River because it is in my

constituency. They've been finding it relatively easy to raise funds, because

these things seem to capture the imagination of people in the community.

Funding, while it always remains an issue, and no one ever has enough money to

meet the plans that they have, and their reach always exceeds their grasp, which

is great, but in the particular financial, fiscal situation we find ourselves

now, we are not in a position any more to give seed monies or anything to these

groups.

Perhaps the day will come when we can. We do give

guidance to groups as to where they will find monies. If you are working with

rivers you can sometimes get money through the Salmonoid Council, you can get it

through the Department of Fisheries, federal and provincial. There are quite a

few other government agencies where you can find some monies. Certainly some of

the money that goes to employment generation programs out of the employment

program, the Minister of Employment and Labour Relations program, a lot of it

goes into those types of activities as well. So there is some.

MR. HARRIS: I am not one of those who believes

that government should find monies to do everything, and be the cause of

everything, and this is one area, I think, where citizen initiative and

participation is perhaps more important than government taking the initiative,

because it's become so that the people of a community get ownership of the

project and that sort of thing. I recognize that, and I think it's one area

where the department can be of great assistance by being available in terms of

providing expertise, and I am delighted to hear the minister say that she is

encouraging that type of activity across the Province because I think sometimes

not everything that happens in St. John's is bad -

MS. COWAN: Oh, definitely in that case it has been

terrific.

MR. HARRIS: - although some people might like to

think so, but what is being done, and I echo the words of the Member for Fogo,

what is being done in those rivers is a credit to the people who are involved in

it. You just go and walk along the Waterford River now and there is a hell of a

lot of be done still, but I remember as a child swimming in Bowring Park - when

it was fit to swim in, and I am not even sure it was fit to swim in then, but we

certainly swam in it and the public swam in it.

AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible).

MR. HARRIS: Then there was a time when they had to

close that down. They closed off the dam, and it has never been used again, as a

river goes, for swimming, and I think it's a shame that has happened, but I

think it's a great credit to the people who are involved in it.

MS. COWAN: And maybe we'll swim in it again some

day.

MR. HARRIS: Yes, and Quidi Vidi has been changed

tremendously over the last ten years as a result of their activity and others,

and I think that example can travel well throughout the Province and provide an

example, so I take it that the minister is committed to having her officials and

departmental staff available for technical advice to groups who need assistance

in that. I know that there are a number of programs, environmental partners and

other things, done on a federal level that are involved. Is there someone in the

minister's department who is designated to - maybe the word is community

liaison, or somebody who is advising these groups, or is there to make sure

these groups are not looked after but at least know what's available from

government, because the government can coordinate, I suppose, and make

information available. Is there a particular person in your department who is

assigned to coordinate and be a liaison and be a governmental assistant\friend

to those organizations?

MS. COWAN: Not exactly, but our water resources

division, the director there is available to give any of this advice. That

individual isn't designated as a community liaison person, but is in the

position to give that advice as is needed.

MR. HARRIS: Would the minister consider asking

someone in the department to prepare perhaps a brochure or some sort of

guideline or guide to make available to communities who might want to get

involved in projects for reclaiming the environment, reclaiming these rivers.

MS. COWAN: I have certainly been wanting to do

that kind of thing. It's just a matter largely of time and funding to do it.

It's something that I think we can look to do as time passes. Just how quickly

it will be, like the waste management study, it is really important to get that

under way right now and so on. We will always have these competing priorities,

but it's something - I would like to have a community liaison person for the

department. No other environment department in Canada has one. In fact, most of

them are even losing their policy developers, which is most unfortunate. It

hasn't happened here yet as far as policy developers go.

One of my goals, which I may never reach, is to get a

community liaison person, but I will have a look, see if we have the time and

the money to, perhaps through our public relations budget or something, start

developing, even if we can't get a brochure out, perhaps some sort of file or

whatever -

MR. HARRIS: It seems to me that there are enough

examples -

MS. COWAN: Oh, definately.

MR. HARRIS: - in our own communities to draw on

and give help - because we could, through a very small project like that,

inspire a number of groups across the Province to become active.

MS. COWAN: The other thing we do t