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:·lar:::h 24,l~ao Tape Nc . Sil Aii-1 The House me ~ =~ 3 :~0 p.m . ~r . Sp~aker i~ t~e C~air ~r . Scea~e~ (Simms) 0:::-Cer, ? -l~~se ! wi th res~ec~ to the ~atte r ra~sed o~ ?riday pas~ co~c~rning Questio~ Period, I wo uld like to take ~he ?oin~s raised in reverse o ~ Cer . ?i:st o: all,t~e poi~t of ord~r r a~sed ~ y the hon . member for LaPoile (~ r . ~:eary ) •.who s·~sgas<:ec th .;o!:. tr..e i".on . t~e President o:: the Council rose on a polnt of privilege : I have checked Ra~sard anci ~he~e is no L~dicatio ~ ~ha= ~ he her.. ?~esiC ent of the Council ros e on any

part i c~lar pc~nt. 50~E HOJ: MZXBSRS: Oh, oh ! ~~"'· SPEAKER: San sard s i~~ ly ind1:::a.:es tnat he made a submission to the Chair which would pe rha?E hel p the C!lai.: in his C.elibet"ac :.ons a:-.C fcllo·,o~ing- that. o: cou::-se 1 tr~e C~air also heard a sub~ission fr~m the hon. the Leader of :::he Oppos1tio n . so in that respect the re was no point of order. :1~. lEARY: My apolo9y . ~IR .

S"!'EAK::R : ~i~h respect =o the whole ques~io~ of whe~her ~r ~ot of~icers of ~he House may ask a q~~ st icn, Lee me stat2 clea rly 1 fi rs: of al l, that ;;e a:!'e re:er rin; her~ of cou rs e to presiciing of ficers o= the House 1a~ d r.oc o:! ic ers of the House seat~d at the ~able. r have cond>J.c ted so me r ese ~arch i~co this ma tcer and have made enqui~ies in various ocher legis lat ures as well as the House of Commons.

There is unfortunately no clear -cut or well defined answer ~o this pa rt icular question . no wev e ~ in t~ose other juris dic tions where I checked the matter out,I find chat there appears to be no restrict ion on ?residing officers ask ing a question if they are so recognized. ~he re is,however,a precedent sett ing ruling, an d I quote from Ha ns ard,D ece mbe r, l975,at which time the 15 09 '

~!a::cr. 2-l, 193') Tape No. 57:. Aa -2 ~!" . s::: ."~'<Z~ 1Si::-.::ts ) : Speaker o= c~e :ay r~leC =h~: pa:~iamencary assistants 2s well 3s special assis~an ~ s may noc ask questions because par~ o! cheir c~~ies mav be in :ace to a~swe~ ~uesci~~s . 3o tho$e ,as ia= as : ca~ d~t~~~i~e . are the only exceptions . ~ine~ns noching clearer,anc :incling no pa::cicular oojec~ions or rest:aincs to other priva~e memhe :s o: ~he Ho~s2 aski~~ ques~ic~s,i~cl~Oin~ ?:es~~i~g o i=i~e~s , I would have to rule that my ori;inol rulinq on Fricey applies in '":~tat. a:-:y ?riva.te :n!!:n!>~r :~~ this hon.

House :naj.· ~sk a ~uesc~an o! the %!~istr~ wicn t~e ex:ept1on o~ ~hose me~:ionedf parliamen~ary an~ special assistants. ~he ?Oi~c •as ~ad~ by a ~u~be= of hon . ~embers as well that the 2uestion Pe:ioe is,generall~ speaking,an opportunity ior the Opposition :o ;uesci6n the ~inis~ry but che::e are ce~cainly no res~:ic~ions o~ li~~catic~s placed on any ocher priv~te ~ember from asking a q~es~ion during Quesc~on Period . ! belie7e it ~s fair co say chat this t::aditioc has noc ~een abused since r have become Speaker and in :act it ~as happened on ve::y rare occasions.

T~e final conment I woulc like co make en the nac ter,for :he benefit of hon. members co ~y r~ghc . in pa rticuLar who raised the ma=cer, is ~hat one of the major responsibil~ties which : have as Speaker is to use the rules to pro~ecc all ~ember's rights and privileges and to be fair and just in presieing ove r all matters that come befo re this t.on. House. And I assure all hon . :nembP.rs that I will consioer my responsibility in thac regard first and foremost . 1510

March 24, 1980 MR. SPSAKER (Si~~) Buchans. MR. G. r'L!GHT ; Tape 572 EC - l The hon. the merr~er for Windso~ - Mr. Speaker, I rise to kindly re~uest th~this hon. House,through you, pay tribute to the late Mr. T. A. Soper. In Buchans du~ina the 1940s and 1950s and 1960s until his retirement, Mr. Soper was a legend in his own time. In the Province, he was one of ~~e most prominent, one of the best known and one of the most respected people associated with sports, particularly hockey. Most people will associate ~~.

Soper with the building and management of the great hockey teams of Buch~~s during the 1940s, 1950s and 1960s - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. G. FLIGHT; - the result of which was the raising of the calibre of hockey throughout this Province and the development of our own Newfoundland talent in such places as Buchans, Grand Falls, Gander, Corner Brook, to mention a few. That was only part of Mr. Soper's contribution.

His leadership and dedication to sports, and more particularly hockey, contributed greatly to the building of our present provincial hockey programme, contributed greatly to the level of participation, calibre and competitiveness that we enjoy today. This is borne out by the tributes already paid to 'Gus~ as he 1o1•as so widely known. He has been referred to as 'a prince in his field', as 'a father of modern day hockey'.' The hockey fraternity of this Province has lost a great and true friend,' -that is to quote some of the tributes, Mr. Speaker. He was a builder. Mr.

Soper approached his job in a totally selfless, ur~suming manner,requiring no accolades or praise, and it was this trait, Mr. Speaker, that further endeared hiJII tc everyone who knew hiJII. Indications of the high regard 'in which Mr. Soper was held is the fact. that he was nominated to the Spo't'ts Hall of Fame some time ago,and it is a source of personal regret that he could not be inducted into the Ha.ll of Fame before his death. 1 511

){arch 24, 1980 'l'af:e 572 EC - 2 MP.. G. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I oove that this hon. Bouse pay tribute and convey our c6ndolences to the immediate members of the Soper family. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : !'!.!<. . H • B?.RRETT : .. Rec, h.ear! l'he han. the member for St. John's West. Mr. Speaker, I rise a,nd appreciate th.e opportunity ·to speak on behalf or members o.n this side t:o endorse the words of '1JfY colleague opposite. I had the distinct pleasure of knowing Mr. Soper, 'Gus' as he was aft'a.bl.y !Qlown as in th.ose days even to the younger people at th.e tim.e in Buchans.

He was a true gentleman, a sports.man and a person whom everyone respected, not only in the community of Bu<:hcms but throughout this entire Provi~ce. I. t is with deep r1!gl:'et, Mr. Speaker, that we learned of his passinq and we wish to be identified with the expression of condolences to his family. ~ you. MR. SPEAKER: You have heard the motion. Those in favour, 'Aye', contrary, 'Nay', carried. i 51 2

Ma rch 24, 1980 Tape No. 573 SD - l MP. SPEII.l<E:<.: (Sin'l!'

S) On behalf of hon. mer..bers, I would like to welcorr.e to the gallery today a delegation fro~ the Local Improvement District of Seal Cove, White Bay, from the district of Baie 'Jerte - White oay, Mr. Winston May, Chair.r.an, Mr. Stan Banks and Ray Osbourne, Trustees. SOME HON. ME MEERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER: MR. D. JAMIESON: ORAL QUESTIONS T~e han. the Leader of the Opposition. Mr. Spea~er, in the absence of the hon. the Premier and the l-'.inister of Mines and Energy (Mr. L. Berry), perhaps the Minister of Finance (Dr. J.

Collins) may be in a position to shed some light on the reports with regard to a proposal by the Province of Quebec:. May I, as an opening question, indicate whether this reply,whic:h the Premier has indicated has been received ,or submission which has been received 1 is in fac:t a.-.. opening gambit, as it were,or a counter-proposal to Newfoundland's and what is its status at the mou.er.t? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Finance. DR. J. C:)LLI"NS: Mr. Speaker, this matter refers to power development in Labrador.

Han. members will recall that we have put forward a position to Quebec that we are willing to sit down and discuss Labrador power development wi~~ them but on the proviso that our rights on the Upper Churchill will be recognized and indeed will be an essential part of the discussion and will possibly be even the number one item on the agenda. These attempts have been ongoing for a considerable period of time.

There had not been much indication of movements on the Province of Quebec's side up to relatively recently and there does seem to be some movements in a recent reply sent by the Premier of Quebec following a very forthright and vigorous statement put to Quebec: by the han. the Premier. Further than that I can not say. The reply has to be processed and has to be =nsidered and it has not got to that stage yet,but this is something that will be done as soon as possible when some more urgent matters are disposed of. 1 51 3

~ arc h 24, 19e ~. 0. JAMIESON: I(R. sPE.Al(ER (Sil!'lllls) : Leader of the Oppositon. MR.. D. J~~SON: '!'ape ~:o . 573 SD - 2 A supple111enta:ry, Mr. Speaker. A supplementa:ry, the hon. the Mr. Speaker, this is solliewhat frustrating in so far as we on this side of the House are concerned. I refer the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr. J.

Collins) to published statements attributed to the Premier which said that the response differed sub~tantially from what bad been discusfjed , there .fore when 'I a$lted the question, "CM he shed any fJ;rt..her light on the subject?"And his reJ>ponse is merely,''It has been received", can :i: aak him this : Is it so far different from what wa$ discussed at what he has described as the very forthright meeting that it does not form the basis for a potential settlement,or is there enough in the response that would s.uqgest that the ·re are grounds for li'Oving ahead and that - can ha'!i-e some opti$m that a settlement perf .eetly satisfacto:ry to Newfoundland is poss.i,ble? 1 51 4

March 24, 1980 MR.SPEAKER (Simms) : DR. J. COLLINS: Tape No. 574 EL - 1 The bon. the Minister of 7inance. Mr. Speaker, I can only reiterate that this is an extremely complex and extremely important subject that needs considerable study refore any new initiative is taken. All I can say is that our position was put very clearly to Quebec, we have got~en back a reply,and this will need to be studied in detail before the next step is taken. ~~. D. Jk~IESON: MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : Leader of the Opposition. MR. D. JAMIESON: A suppleJroentary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the bon. the Mr.

Speaker, I have purposely chosen to couch my question in a way that would not in any sense jeopardize the case - and I suppose that will be described by some people as being weak-kneed and lily-livered and all the rest that goes with it. MR. RIDEOUT : Or respcsnible • MR.JAMIESON: Bu~ I am trying my best to just elicit information,and I will ask this question then: Can the bon. the Minister of Finance indicate how long it is likely to be before the examination is completed,or what is ~~e next step in this most vital matter for Newfoundland .on which I can assure the bon.

Minister, he has the full support of everybody on this side of the House in getti:~g the best deal possible for Newfoundland? What is the likely time- table ? Would he care to sort of assess or estimate what that is goi.Tlg to be? MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : DR. J. COLLINS : The hon. the Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, I would like to go on record ill sayinq that any questions that the ~ader opposite asks are responsib~e. None of these adjectives that he chose to use, that he, I am sure, picked up from another source, in my view, that has never been the case.

As far as the next step, as the hon. members know, the hon. the Premier is enqaged now on a very important 1 51 5

March 2<:, 1980 ~ape No. 574 2L - 2 DR.~· J. COLLINS : tour and is expected back towards the e!ld. of this week and r have no doubt what~;~ver that one of the urgent matters to be considered on his return will be the letter in question. MR. SPE~R (Si11111lS} : Tbe hen. the Member for Grand Sank. MR. I.. THoMS: Mr. Spe.aker, my question is directed to the Minister of Justice (Mr.Ottenheimer) and it has to do with the Thomas Hao;an death, a death that has a lot of people, cert<Linly in the St. John's area, frightened and scared to death.

The Minister of Health (Mr.House) has publicly said that the gQvernment is awaiting the out­ come of a judicial inquiry before taking further action. I t.'l.ink he is a bit confused. I think he was referring to the Magisterial Icquiry which would be aut0111atic in the case of a violent or un­ explained death. It is not a judicial inquiry. Now there are a lot o£ questions that have to be answered in relation to the Waterford Hospital, the question of admission, re-admissions, the releasing of patients, etc.

M:f question to the minister is if he wou.ld appoint a public inquiry under the Public Inquiries Act, that could look into the whole ambit of p%0blems associated with that institution? 1516

~larch 24, 1980 ~R. SPEAKER (Simms) ~IR. OTTENHEIMER: Tape ~!o. 575 DW - 1 The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker,what has been done to date is actually the appointment of an inquiry under the

Summary Jurisdiction Act 1whicn is what used to be referred to as a magisterial inquiry;now,to be consistent,it is really a ~rovincial Court inquiry. And until that is completed and a report in,it would not be certainly my intention to appoint another simultaneous inquiry. 3ut I should point out that - I am not going to read all of

section 127 of the

Summary Jurisciction Act,just the rglevant parts of it, But it is quite wide-ranging.As a matter of fact,the terms of reference, if you wish,embedded in the statute are broader than most terms of reference which would be done up for a particular commission. I will just read the relevant parts of it, 'Subject to this

section whenever any person dies apparently as a result of violence, misadventure, negligence, misconduct or malpractice', and then further on 'by unfair means or during pregnancy' and a whole lot of other sections, 'the magistrate exercising occurred,or jurisdiction in the district where the death any other: provincial judge or any justice desi~- nated therefor by the Attorney General shall conduct such an inquiry to ascertain the causes and circumstances respecting such death So as I say the ~rovincial Court inquiry pro- cedure as defined in the

Summary Jurisdiction Act is quite broad and we shall wait until we have the report of.the Provincial Court inquiry and it would be,in my opinion 1 pre­ mature to state ·anything beyond that because we do not have the report yet. MR. L. THOMS: MR. SPEAKER: for Grand Bank. As a matter of fact,they have not sat yet. A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hon. member 1 51 7

~arch 24, l9ao Tape No. 575 ow - 2 1{R. L. THOMS : Mr. Speaker, the present inquiry is broad enough in relationship to investigating the cause of death of Thomas Hagat, but there is no doubt in my mind that the magistrate would not go further than that. What I would like to see is a public inquiry under the Public Inquiries act that would look __ into the whole gamut of problems associated with that institution, admission, re-admissions, releasing of patients and so on. It seems to me, Mr. Minister, there could be no problems with appointing another public inquiry , and will you give this your consideration? MR.

SPEA=ER (Simms) MR. G.OTTENHEIMER: The hon. Minister of Justice. Mr. Speaker, I certainly will give it my consideration and the bon. ~entleman will;of course,recall that I did not rule out any possibility of any such inquiry. And I realize that an inquiry now resulting - or as a result of this specific death is not the same as an inquiry into the whole ~ AN-BON. MEMBER: The whole ambit. MR. G. OTTENP.EIMER: - yes - the whole ambit of patients receiving or having received psychiatric care,and their re-admission or the fact that they left such an institution. But obviously there is some overlap here 1 51 8

March 24, 1980 Tape No. 576 MR. OTTENF.EDIER: there is some overlap oecause of the circumst~~ces. So I am not ruling it out 1 I am merely saying I think while they are not L~e same there would be a certain amount of overla~ ~~d given L~e quite broad ~rame of reference, and bearing in mind the circumstw~ces, or alleged circumstances with respect to this particular incident,that it would be preferable to await the -report of that enquiry under the NM - 1

Summary Jurisdictio" Act, and L~en make what decision would appear to be necessary in the light of those findings. I am no~ ruling it out, I am just saying at the particular time I do not think it would be appropriate until we have the report under the Provincial Court Enquiry. MP .. THOMS: A supplementary. MR. SPE.'UCER (Simms) : A final supplementary, the hon. member for Gra.'1d Bank. MR. 'rHOMS: Mr. Speaker, a magistrate can d1spense wiL~ L~e magisterial enquiry into this particular matter I think in about five minutes, which is what will happen.

However, anoL~er question in connection with it, a supplementary question, I ~~derstand that the Hagan family has had to move out of L~eir house and is unable to use it and I was wondering if the minister would undertake to see that government would contact the Hagan family wiL~ a view tc helping them in that particular situation. They are now renting in another area. MR. OTTENHEL'l.ER: I am sorry, I did not get a chance to hear the hon. gentleman. MR.

THOMS: I was wondering if the minister would undertake to get in touch with the Hagan family to review their situation vis-a-vis their having to move out of the home, which through circumstances really related to this patient, and the Waterford Hospital, _ they had. to move out. Will you undertake to contact them and see what can be done to alleviate the situation? MR. NEARY: contact him. The Minister of Health, Sir, they should 1519

:·larch ;,4, 1'38~ :~ .. R. ':'HC:·lS: :-~..~.. S?::A!GR (5L-mlS) : HR. OTTENHEii •lER: Tape :~o . 57? Hill yet: ta..<c ~he i~i~:.ative? The hon . Minis:::er of .Justice . N1-1 - 2 ~ .

Spe~~er, I thi~ probably my best answe r -:.o t.'lac would be t:ha-= t ·,.;J.ll :::a'<e the ini;;ia:::.:.ve t:o have c~e.:n concact:ed . z an not: sure :ny coi.-:g so '"'o~ld be ap:;>ropr:.ete , ! do no;; mea."\ :ne personally but tee D,.pa:rt:nent: of .Ju scJ. ce' s do:.ng so •.;ou!.d be apsoropriat:.e, but cer;:ainly a c!epartmenc of governll'e:'lt immed.:.a1:.ely concerned with ::hi s area of l•elfare , I •.vill :io that . ~es . ~l.'l.. SPEA!<ZR : :·t.~. ::.IEA..-=tY : The hon . menber for La?oile .

Mr. 5peakp_:r, i:1 \'iew of t:."le fac-= chat ~.o-e have a medical sc~ool L"l cr~s ?rovince, over her e on the campus ~f t.~e u.~::..ver si cy •.vhere research is caking place and so forch anci so on, ~ •..:oulc li:<:e :o ask t.'le Y..i:ris::.er o: ?;ealth if any resee:ch qr a.~y e.xperimez1t:lng l.S dor:e in this ?rovince in conneccJ.on '-"lth ~iiicial ins~"lacicr:? ~~ HCN . 1-tE.".Be.~ : ~IR. NEA.'<.Y : What t.ype? !iuman . 1520 ...

March 24, 1980 MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : JolR. W. liOUSE : Tape 577 EC - 1 The hen. the Minister o£ nealtn. Mr. Speaker, I do not think, of course, the field of artificial insemination is a research mat~er anymore, I think it is a reality, so that the member is more or le:ss asking if there is a programme of artificial insemination in the Pro­ vince of any sperm banking. I have searched this out and to my knowledge there is not.

There may be .childless couples, for instance, who may request this kind of thing and, of course, they deal with their own medical doctor or gynecologist and he refers t_r,em to sperm banki n:;, or he will, I think, get information for them and direct them to certain mainland clinics or sperm banks. JolR. S • NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: for LaPoile. MR. S. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary, the hen. the member Do ! understand correctly, then, from the hen. gentleman that there are no sperm banks in Newfoundland, ~~at a gynecologist or a doctor will refer people in Newfoundland making enqu iries to the mainland? Is that what the hon. gentleman is saying? MR. W. HOUSE: Possibly. MR. s. NEARY: Will that expense, then, be paid by MCP if they have to go to the mainland, can the hon. gentleman tell us? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. W. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I said 'maybe'.

I do not know of any doctor who has referred anybody for artificial insemination to a specific mainland sperm bank or a clinic that is doing that kind of operation. I do not know, possibly there could be artificial insemination done within the Province. It would not require any legislation. MR. s. NEARY: It would not have to be reported? MR. W. HOUSE: No, I do not think so. I have tried to find out, incidentally, but I cannot find l'fhether it would require COllling to our attention.

But I think the best answer I can gi•.re is that there is no sperm b~ng, there is no artificial insemination ta.kinq place in the Province, but childless couple& are referred, maybe, to eutside clinics. 1 5 21

March 24, 1980 Tape 577 EC - 2 MR. W. HOUSE : In that case, I do not know. If they are referred out for certain purposes, if ~~ey went to the States, for instance, for abortion, we have determined that that is not something that you could collect for under MCP and I do not know if the reverse would be true or not, but I think that the reverse would be true. 1522

Ma!:Ch 24,1.980 MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): member for LaPoile. Tape No. 578 AH-1 A final supplementary. A final supplementary. The ~on. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker,r presume then, the hon. gentleman what he said in his last answer is that he is uncertain, at least he is unaware. But the sperm of some of those scientists and people who are trying to create the supe!: race could very easily find its way into Newfoundland through private practitioners and they do not have to,at the present time,report it to anybody. But what about sperm banks? Would they be co~trolled by the government?

Would they be ~e+e at the Health Sciences Complex, or can a doctor in private practice have his own sperm bank? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, officially-! do not want to sound facetious in this because the member has asked me a question and I am getting some input from both sides. I am trying to answer the question seriously and what I said is officially, and that is all I can talk about, there are no sperm banks, officially there is no artifical insemination taking place in the Province. Whether there is some experimentation, I do not know.

It would not - and I have tried to investigate this in other places- it would not have to be reported. I would like to talk privately with the member about it though. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. NEARY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I can tell the hon. gentleman I am not going to be a donor. MR. SPEAKER: MR.LUSH: The hon. member for Terra Nova. Mr. Speaker, I want to direct a question or two to the Minister of Transportation and Communrcations (Mr.Brett)relating to the Province's intra­ provincial ferry services,and firstly I wonder if the minister could indicate briefly just how these intra-provincial ferry 1523

:·larch 24 ,1 9SO Tape No . 578 AH-2 )!R. LCS!i: services are subsidized? Are chey subsie~zec solely cy c~e provi~cial government? Are ~~ey subsidized solely ~y the fed2ral qovernme~~ , or is it a sharing arrangement? ~R . SPEAKER (S imms ): a~c Communications . ~1R. SRE:TT: The hon . Minister of Transportation ~r . Speaker, it is a cost -sharing arrangement which we entered i~to with the federal government almost exactly two years ago . The hon . Leader of the Opposit~on , ! am sure,is as !amiliar wit~ it as I am.

It is a seven~y -f ive / :wenty-!ive cost-sharing agree~ent and we are - I am not sure i~ it is March or April -we are entering the ~irst month of the third year of that five year agreement. So it is shared seventy-five/twenty-five with the federal go vernment paying seventy-five per cenc. :•!R.. LUSH: ;>. supplea:entary. MR . SPEAKER: A supplementary. The hon.member for Terra Nova . MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, ! am wondering just how or wh1ch level of governme~c has the respoosiDilicy in allocating che funds to each :erry service?

Again,whether it is done solely by che provincial.~overnments or whether it is done by the federal government? Which government distribuces the !unds? 1524

March 24, 1980 Tape No. 579 Nl1 - 1 l'!R. SPEAKER (Sim.'!ls) : The han. ~linister cf Transportati on and Comm=ications. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, not exactly a distribution of funds. We have the existing services in the Province. I do not know how many there are ~ut,for example, in the han. member's district, St. Brendan's, the existing ferry services are subsidized, they are allowed a certain margin of profit and they collect some revenue from the people who travel on the ferries ~~d then the subsidies are paid out by the provincial government.

The money,of course, the federal government has paid to us and then we in turn pay it out to the ferries. But there is no allocation of funds as such. If we wish to improve a service somewhere,then under the existing agreement the provincial government has to pay the full shot. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary, the han. member for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: The minister indicated that it was in effect for five years, was it? Cr was it four years? MR. BRETT: Four or five. MR.

LUSH: Four or five years 1 I am just wondering whether the figure remains stable throughout that period or whether there is some clause in it where the money might be indexed in some way, where the monies are sort of raised each year to fit in with the cost of operating these ferries? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETT: The federal government pays us. There is a formula, I am not absolutely certain what one it is,but there is a formula. It is a small amount each year. It is indexed according to the cost of living. something along these lines. MR. LUSH: CPI. 1525

March 24, 1980 Tape No. 579 NM - 2 MR. BRETT: Yes, I believe that is correct. But any improvements in any ferry systems,the provincial government has to pay the full shot. M..~. LUSH: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): for Terra Nova. MR. LUSH: A final supplementary. A final supplementary, the hen. member Mr. Speaker, the minister will recall that a few days ag~ I presented a petition from the residents of St. Brendan's protesting the extreme inadequacy ~f their present ferry service and requesting that funds be made available in this fiscal year for ~~e purchase of a new ferry.

I wonder if the minister can indicate what is the situation in this respect. Will the people of St. Brendan's be able to look forward to a new ferry this year? What decision has the minis~er made in this respect or will he be making any decision on it? MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, at the risk of being quoted by the media as making light of this 1 I would like to say that Bell Island is looking for a new ferry 1 Fogo Island is looking for a new ferry, and my han. friend over here down in the Burgee area is looking for a complete new ferry altogether.

St. Brendan's is looking for a new ferry. The provincial government in all likelihood will have to bear the full cost of the ferry services at the end of the five year agreement; therefore, we realize that we have to sit down and take a very hard look and see exactly where we are going in the next three years and way down the road beyond that. And that is the reason that we have set up an 1526

March 2 4 , 19 8 0 Tape No. 580 ow - 1 MR. C. BRETT: in-House committee that will report to me probably within the next month, and ! in turn will be reporting to Cabinet, they will be making some suggestions as to what we should do, what we are going to do and until such time as I have received that report and have gotten the approval of my colleagues in Cabi­ net,then I will not be able to tell the hon. member if we are going to have any improvements in the ferry service St. Brendan's, Bell Island o~ anywhere else for that matter. MR. LUSH: There will be no new services then? MR . C .

BRETT: I do not know if there will be any new services or not.I cannot say and we will not know for a number of months. MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The han. member for Bonavista North. MR. L. STIRLING: Thank you, M~. Speaker. I too have a question for the ~inister of Transportation and Com­ munications (Mr. Brett) on behalf of the ·hard-working fisher- men in Cape Freels. I understand that the dirt road leading to Cape Freels has now become impassable and this morning was so dangerous that the parents felt that they could not let the school bus take their children over that road.

Would the minister like to make a comment, please? MR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Transporta- tion and Communications. MR. C. BRETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I would like to comment on it. This sort of complaint and these sorts of complaints will keep pour1ng into my office for the next two or three _months until the mud and the rain and the snow and the ice has dried up. It is a matter that is of great concern to me because we are spending so much money.

The total vote for road maintenance, Summer and Winter maintenance in this Province -and do not forget we only have a population of a half million people-and the total vote for maintenanee 1527

March 24, 1980 Tape No. sao DW - 2 MR. C. BRETT: of roads and bridges in this Province this year will be $50 million. And somebody in the press gallery had the nerve to sugges~ that I take it lightly! Salaries alone, $28 million. Winter maintenance, almost $8 million this year, and Summer maintenance, almost $4 million. For anyone to suggest that we are taking that matter lightly,they obviously do not know what they are talking about. And I sympathize with the hon. member. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear: MR. C.

BRETT: I sympathize with every member in this House who has any amount of gravel road in his district because I have driven over gravel roads and I know what it is like to have your muffler torn off and your gas tank leaking - AN HON. MEMBER: Your rear end. MR. C. BRETT: - your rear end, almost hit my rear end.

And the government is very much concerned about it and all I can tell the hen. member is that we will do everything that we can do.I received this complaint this morning, it was on ~ desk when I came in,and I have instructed the staff to do everything that they can to enable the traffic to get back and forth.

But this is going to happen,and every member of this House who has gravel roads is going to get these kind of complaints and 1 of course, I expect that you are going to pass them along to me and I will have to answer, no matter how many questions come up I will have to give you the same answer,that we will do all that we can do to keep the roads passable. HR. L. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER (Simms): for Bonavista North. MR. L. STIRLING: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. A supplementary, the hen. member I can,understand that the minister was upset and I also want to make it clear that 1528

Marc .h 24, 1980 Tape No. 581 so - 1 MR. L. STIRLING: I was not being critical of his taking the matter lightly. Out of that $50 million, of co~rse, the people of Cape Freels only want a little piece, just about $40,000. Maybe the minister can clear this up for us. I have been given the impression that the government made a commitment to the federal government when they spent all the money on the main road and the loop road that they would upgrade and pave the side roads leading to that main highway. Is ~~at true? MR. SPEAKER (Simms): The hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. C.

BRETT: I can not answer that question, Mr. Speaker. I have no idea what commitments were given previously, I certainly have no idea at all. I can check on it for the hon. member . MR. L. STIRLING: MR. SPEAKER: member for Bonavista North. A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker, A final supplementary, the hon. MR. L. STIRLING: I take it ~~e minister will check that and let me know.

Could I have a commitment ,then, that your people will be given full authority to take whatever action is necessary ~o maintain that road in its present state until after the Budget and then consideration will be given to proper reconstruction in this year's Budget? At least it will get in consideration and, of course, you will have to establish your priorities • will it at least be considered in this year's Budget? MR. SPEAICER: and Commanications. MR. C. BRETT: The hen. Minister of Transportation :t can only assure the hon. melllber that we ;vill maintain the road to the best of our ability.

They have already received instructions to do that. tlhether or not it will be in next year's Budget, :t can not say. Just to clarify another matter, I realize the hon. member ·Jis not suggesting that I was not concerned. I vas talking to the press gallery. MR. F. :ROWE: Mr. Speaker. 1529

March 24, 1980 Tap~ No. 581 so - 2 MR. SPE~$ER: (Sirnms) Time for one final question, the hon. member for Trinity - Bay de Verde. MR. F. RO'fiE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to address a question to the Minister of Transportation and Communications (Mr. C. Brett).

Sir, in view of the fact that last year in a number of unincorporated communities in the district of Trinity - Bay de Verde 1 particularly New Harbour and the Greens Harbour area,where you have d fair amount of local dirt roads with smail fish plants surroundin~ that particular area, in view of the fact that these particular roads were not upgraded and paved and the department ran out of calcium chloride for the Avalon area last year, could the minis~r assure the House, Sir, that this situation will not occur again this year and that there will be an adequate supply of calcium Chloride in order to put over the dirt roads in these particular communities that I have mentioned where you do have a awful lot of truck traffic with the fish supplies being brought back and forth and the fish plant workers going back and fort~?

MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Transportation and Communications. MR. C. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, in as far as that is possible, yes, I will uadertake to guarantee the hon. member that these roads will be done. I do not know what happened in that case. It was the intention of government,and it is the intention again this year, to put calcium chloride on all of our gravel roads.

I suppose it was a case of the engineers not ordering enough,and I do not know if our calcium chloride is ordered or not but I can assure the hon. member that I will take it up with rrry staff when I go back tomorrow morning and try to lllilke sure that that sort of thinq does iaot happen again. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Time for Oral Questions has expired. I will ask hen. members to join me in welcoming to the gallery a two-meMber delegation from the Town Council of Old Perlican in the district of Trinity - Bay de Verde, 1530

~ch 24 , 1980 ~. SPEA.'I(ER (SiltllllS) ' SOME HOIJ. MEMBERS : MR. SPVM'<ER: Tape So. 581 SD - 3 Mr . J:!a ::ry S~ ::~ ng and i"..r . Alex ?ike. He ar , hea r. NOTICES OF MOTION' 'nl.e hon. Minister of Finance. DR. J. COLLIN S: Mr. Speaker, I qive notice that I will on tolllOrrow ask this House to -~so~ve itself inte a colllnittee o-f the Whole to consider certain resolutions for the qranting of Interim SUI)ply to Her Majesty. 1531

March 24, 1980 Tape 582 EC - l &'iSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. SPEAKER (Simms) : The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. M..'~. J • MORGAJ.'I : Mr. Speaker, I "Wish to ~swer a question asked me on March 4th, I think it was, by the hen. the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) in connection with the activities of the Loan Board over the past twelve months. The question is in connection with the number of notices sent out since January 1, 1979 to fishermen who are in arrears with their payments to the Fisheries Loan Board. The answer, Mr.

Speaker, to that question is that since January 1, 1979, there have been approximately 3,200 notices sent to fishermen who are in arrears in their accounts. In these categories, the loans were for boats, fishing gear and engines. There are approximately 1,600 accounts in arrears and these are all for boats, engines and equipment because there are no loans made by the Loan Board for fishing geaz·; it is for equipment for the boats but not for the gear. And the third question, How many boats and engines have been repossessed since January 1, 1979?

The repossession number - since January 1 1 1979, there have been twelve boats repossessed, Eleven of these have been sold by public tender and t.~ese were primarily as a result of request of the owners of the boats asking the Loan Board to take the boats and sell them for them. So these arrears in the Loan Board 1 these are the answers to it and I will gladly answer any more questions in connection with what we are going to do with them. MR. SPEAKER: Further answers? ORDERS OF TilE DAY MR. W. MARSHALL: Order No. 9.

Motion second reading of a bill 1 "An Act Respecting The Establishment Of A Newfoundland And Labrador Arts Council In (Bill No, 16), SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER~ SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear: The hen. the Leader of the Opposition. Hear, hear! 1532

March :24, 1980 Tape 582 EC - 2 ~3 •• D. J~~IESON: Mr. Speaker, I am very pleased to be able to participate in this debate. 'Debate' is probably the wrong word for it because, as my friend and colleague, the hen. the m~~e~ for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) indicated in his splendid speech on Friday, there really is no quarrel with this particular piece of legislation, and in that sense, therefore, ~~ere will not be anything by way of debate in ~~e conventional sense of ~~e word. MR. NEARY: Hard debate. MR.

D. ~~IESON: Hard debate. 1 We on this side propose to support the legislation in whatever method or for however long it is going to be before this House, that is in terms of second reading, because there are a number of our colleagues who want to express themselves, tecause I think there is a feeling among all of us that it is important once in a while for this House to get away from the normal kind of day-to-day administrative type of legislation - as important as that may be - and to discuss u~tters which, in some respects, are probably more important to the future of this Province as 90 per cent of the other legislation with which ·~ deal, I think the member for LaPoile put it very well, if I can paraphrase him, on Friday, when he reverted to the biblical text, ·if I am not mistaken, to say that man does not live by bread alone.

And if one could bring that up to date, I think what this new bill emphasizes is something which I personally have been trying for many years to get across to legislators and to the people of Newfoundland, and that is that economic and social development are now inextricably linked, that you can no longer regard such things as arts and culture as being the dory tied on to the schooner, as it were, something that you can cut loose and still be in good shape; that in fact the whole fabric of our society is now very inextricably tied up between our economic development on ~~e one hand and our social development on the other, and in that respect, I am using 'social' in the broadest sense of the word, perhaps even a little more broadly than is envisaged in this Bill No. 16 which we are discussing today.

I make these comments with regard to the growing integration of our social and our economic life because of the 1533

~!arch 24 1 1980 Tape 582 EC - 3 MR. D. J~liESO!'!: ~refound changes that I see occurring within our Newfo~~dl~•d society. 1534

March 24, l9SO Tape No. 583 EL - l MR. D. JruMIESON: It is cert~inly one of the ~~st unusual periods in our long and remarkable history. It is a period that is, as I am sure all hen. members have noted, a period of contradiction. For example, to use just a few, we have broken out of, to a very great extent, our historic isolation in Newfoundland. Desoite the unenviable pro­ blems of the Minister of Transportation and Communications (C.Brettl, the fact of the matter is that today Newfoundlanders are more mobile, both within the Province,and indeed worldwide, than they nave ever been before in their lives.

The contradiction that I see here is that we are also, as a result of this new mobility, moving out into the world. My colleague, the member for Burin - Placentia West, has just had the most recent example of this in that his daughter was one of those who was part of a group which travelled widely within Canada during the last two or three weeks and we have had, as well, literally hundreds upon hundreds of students from Newfoundland, thDough various public and private grant programs, visiting ~ot only other parts of canada .but remote locations as well.

The contradiction·:that I see in this, and it is a happy one, is that this has not resulted in any significant decline in what r would descr~e as the interest of Newfoundlanders in their heritage and their culture. Quite the contrary.

And despite the doom·~sayers who always felt that as soon as a Newfoundlander could get across the Gulf that was going to be the end of it, insofar as his relationship with his Province was concerned 1.despite all of those gloomy forecasts, partially as a result of this travel, I think younger people and others have come to hAve a new awar-s&, a new appreciation of the tremendous advantages and the opportunities that we have here within the Province of Newfoundland. This is one of the contradictions. 1535

March 24 , 1980 Tape No. 583 EL 2 MR. D. JAMIESON: Now, a much more serious one, Mr. Speak@r, which is relevant to this effort to maintain a balance between economic and social d@V@lopment, is the contradiciton that one senses within Newfoundland today where there is almost, one could say, a euphoria, at least in c@rtain quarters, about our econo~~c prosp@cts. There is a widespread sense that perhaps at last we are about to cross the threshold into a more secure economic kind of future. But that euphoria is matched by an almost equally high level o~public unease.

I think one can observe this in virtually eYery part of Newfoundlar.d 1perhaps in the remoter regions or in the more heavily fishery dependant regions than in, let us say, the urban centres of this Province. But going along with this feeling that things are looking up for Rewfoundland economically, is a mounting concern that perhaps what is in stor @ for us is not as good as we may be, on the one side, thinking it is going to be. So we have again this kind of contradictory feeling.

I alii sure that almost all hon . members have run into it.As .recently as this weekend ! did, when I found people saying,!irst· of all 1not only do we hope that there will be oil and gas 1but we hope that we can manage it properly . And then other people saying 1 I hope we never see a gallon because it is going to make such a vast difference in our lifestyle and in our society. Obviously, Mr.

Speaker, I am using these references in this partiC1Jlar c.se, not to a.rgue the merits or otherwise of economic policy, 11e will probdly have an opportunity within the next few weeks or months to do that in great detail once the budget is brought down 1 aut what I do want to lay before bon. members is the proposition that never before in the history of this 1536

March 24, 1980 Tape No. 583 EL - 3 !o!R. D. J.>J.".IESON : Province, has it been more important that we understand clearly and unmistakably that unless there is an equally determined 1537

~arch 24, 1980 Tape No. 584 NM - 1 MR. JA11IESON: commitment on the part of those in places of responsibility, such as in this House but not exclusively legislative, to develop and ensure that ~he social side of our lives is well proctacted and well er~nced, then we could well wind up in a decade or two with a far more prosperous people than we have today, but with a far less happy people than we have today. Indeed, ~x.

Speaker, if I can d~lve very briefly into history, let me say that as one who can reme~ber very vividly pre-Confederation days in Newfoundland, the growth that has taken place economically, the improvement in our standard of living has been phenome~al, just simply phenomenal. Indeed 1 if one were to ask thirty-one years ago,or approximately thirty-one years ago, where Newfoundland would be by 1980, a _person who forecast where we now are would have been told that he had holes in his head, that we simply could not move ahead that fast in three decades. Now that is what I a~ calling the economic side.

The hon. member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) made reference on Friday to the former premier,J.R. Smallwood, and since I was one of those who was in Ottawa during the time of the negotiation of the Terms of Union I do not believe that I am putting exaggerations in his mouth when I say that even he, a born optimist in the absolute extreme, even he did not anticipate that there would be this level of growth and expansion on the economic side in Newfoundland.

And ironically as wel~ by the way, and this is purely a matter for the record and perhaps irrelevant to some extent to this debate, the interesting thing is, and when I listened to the Premier the other day with regard to the economic straits of the Province, tha.t it was almost a paraphrase of the words of the one man who refused to sign the terms of Confederation and who was the father of the most recent Minister of Finance of Canada, who said that the day might very well come in Newfoundland, when the government 1538

Mar"h 24, 1980 Tape No. 584 Nf'! - 2 MR. Jli.MIESON: would find itself in very, very bad straits

whereas the individuals making up the public of Newfo~,dland would find themselves in reasonably decent circumstances economically. That,by the way,is on the record and I hope some historian, now that the documents relating to Confederation have been made public, I hope 5ameone will take the trouble to look up these facts because they are fascinating in terms of telling us something of ourselves and the history of the past thirty years or so. But to rever~ to my own cornme~ts about the history of this Province 1let me say, Mr.

Spea~er, that when one talks about the establishment of an arts council, it is clear in this bill that what we are 5aying i5 that Newfoundla~d ha5 a very distinctive, uni~Je heritage and culture which must be preserved at all cost and must be enha~ced. If you boil it all down that is what you come down to.

Now historically what is interesting, and I believe germane to this particular debate, is that except for individuals working exclusively on their own, a~d usually in remarkably difficult circumstances, there was up until thirty or thirty-five years ago hardly a~y assistance of any kind for the creative person in Newfoundland. There were exceptions. The Grenfell Association, for example 1did a good deal to encourage native art in Northern Newfoundland and Labrador. There was the odd bit of help from this group or that group, usually churches.

There was an occasional generous wealthy person who put a person through college or university or musical training or whatever the case might be. But with these notable exceptions that culture we are speaking about, that heritage, that enormous resevoir that we now possess of 300 or 400 years of our history, was the exclusive product of the creativity of individual Newfoundlanders, like 1for example 1the very gifted and talented mother of the hen. the Minister of Rural Development (Mr. Goudie) and the like. That is important. I hope in a moment that I will 1539

March 24, 1980 Tape No. 585 DW - l MR. D. JAMIEsm;: explain in a little more detail why it is. But also on this historical note to which I am referring ,! thin ~ we also ought to recognize that until comparatively recent times these were isolated pockets of creativity in Newfoundland, they were isolated examples of culture, because we did not have a homogeneous society in this Province. We had people living three and four and five miles away from each other in different communit ies who scarcely saw each other from one year's end to another.

Furthermore 1 because of the nature of our development in Newfoundland and also because of the variety of our be­ ginnings,there was still not a single kind of cultural development within Newfoundland. I refer,for example, to the enormous differences that one finds, not making any odious comparisons one with the other, between, let us say, the culture and the heritage and the people of the Southern Shore as against the Southcoast of this Province or the Northeast coast of the Province,or for that matter Labrador.

Now this culture then that we have been talking about and which is now preoccupying us-I think much later, by the way, than it ought to have but that is another matter - this cu1ture only started to come together when a couple of things began and they teach us a couple of lessons~it seems to me.

The first flowering of this in our lifetime~ in the post-Confederation period,came when people had a sufficiently solid economic base that they could start thinking about something else. ~n other words, you cannot get very poetic or very excited, you cannot become 'very creative if you have an empty stomach or if your children have not got shoes on their feet. And so while it is true that some of our current literature, that some of our songs, some of the various tales that 1540

~arch 24, 1980 Tape No. 585 DW - 2 MR. D. J!\.:>!IESON: are told have their roots in that poverty, have their roocs in that privation,as did a good deal,by the way,of the Irish culture from which much of this was borrowed, the fact of the matter is that no people are going to blossom in the cultural sense, no people are going to do a decent creative job in the cul- tural sense unless there is economic stability along with opportunity. That,I believe, is terribly important once again in relation to where we go from here.

Now one other matter with regard to the history of Newfoundland which once again I think is relevant to this Bill is the fact that over the years to which I have been referring, that is,let us say, from the tarn of the century up until twenty or twenty­ five or so years ago, not only did we not have a homo­ geneous culture but in many instances the division of our various communities, the lack of communication be­ tween them,resulted in a great deal of bitterness and a tremendous amount of what I-might describe as unhealthy competition.

I was interested - not only interested but saddened today, of course, to participate in the resolucion with regard to the passing of Gus Soper in the sports area. I knew Gus Soper extremely well, worked with him intimately.And I see in the gallery,and I hope I may be permitted for drawing attention to him,another old friend of mine, Aubrey MacDonald, Aubrey Mac,who will remember what I· am talking about when cultural events in:Newfoundland and sports events in Newfoundland were almost-you could describe them as bloody-minded exercies either between communities or between dif- ferent groups. MR. S. NEARY: St.

John's and Bell Island. 1 5 41

)'larch 24, 198') Tape No. 585 OH - 3 ~~- D . .iAMIESON: ! thin k i~ is ?ar lia ~enta r y ~ c say 1:hat the hon. member for La l?oile ('1r. s. !l:ear

y) was a rink r at. I do not believe that that is an u np arliamentar y expression. Bu t he will confi r m ~hat - MR . s. NEARY : t met the ho~. gentleman for the firs t time, by the way, over on Bell Island. MR . D. JAHIES ON: Tha~ is right, over on Bell Islan d .

I thi~k h e will confirm that because of the lack of c ommunica1:io~ which existed t~a~ there was an incredibie amount of unnecessary and ,I believ~ looking back in retr o - spec1: . d a ma ging r ivalry a.s oppos e d to a kind of com ing to g ether as a result of intercommunity kinds of dramatic a nd cultural activities. r b eliev e I can lay claim to h av ing helped stage t h e f i rst Regional Drama P est i val : i n Newfoundland 1 1542

!'.arch 24, 1980 Tape 586 EC - 1 MR. D. JAMIESON: eertainly it was one of the earliest 1 and I can remember how we had to placate two or three of the groups before we could bring the adjudicator to the social function at the end of the evening because they were ready to string him up on the grounds ~~at in some way or o~~er, he had not given a decent adjudication to this community or to that community, but had favoured St. John's.

And, of course, in those days, I suppose - somebody described the other day the overpass versus this side of the overpass and the other side of the overpass -well, in those days, artistic activities, cul~ural activities and sports activities, all three of them, all you needed to do to be popular was to be from the other side of what is now the overpass and to be against St. John's. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. D. JAMIESON: It was as simple and straightforward as that.

And I was about to say that I am pleased now to see that while it still exists, while there is still a certain amount of antipathy towards, let us say, St.

John's or Corner Brook or Grand Falls or whatever the case might be, and while we still have communities living cheek by jowl that will not get together and co-operate, that I do believe that the younger people and perhaps even the members of Parliament who go down to Fortune to play hockey - I do not know - but certainly the exchanges between the younger people, the sorts of things that emerge from the Kiwanis Music Festival, all of these kinds of things, are starting to break down this kind of bitterness which I can assure hen. members was a very damaging deterrent to the real growth of artistic development and artistic activity in Newfoundland, not to say to the general commonality of our feeling about this Province.

The other interesting point - I think it is worth mentioning here - is that once again, even though we talk about our ancient songs, our ancient legends, our ancient stories, if you are an historian on this subject, or the slightest bit interested, you will discover once again that the vast bulk of the kind of material which we now instinctively think of when anyone mentions Newfoundland culture 1543

March 24, 1980 Tape 586 EC - 2 MR. D. JA.'IIESON: has emerged in the last thirty-five or forty years. I would venture to bet that one man did more than anyone else to make us conscious, for example, of Newfoundland songs, and that man was Gerald s. Doyle; that before the days of radio, hardly any of us,with the exception of us corner boys in st.

John's who could get hold of Johnny Burke's pieces which he had printed and used to sell for two cents on ~~e corne~ hardly any of us were familiar with what are now said to be ~~e great historical legends of Newfoundland in song and verse. r do not believe that it was the case. I think also that in conjunction wi~~ Mr. Doyle, Bob McLeod deserves an enormous amount of credit for the manner in which he publicized these songs.

And by the way, since we are having a kind of freewheeling debate ~~d I gather it does not matter all that much whether one stays in context or not, let me say this, that I wish that some of the arty types who will take these Newfoundland folk songs and add frills and trills up and down until you cannot find the melodic line in all of the fancy arrangements, I wish they "WOUld sit down with Bob McLeod and learn how to play a Newfoundland folk song. SOME HON. ME • .'C3ERS : Hear, hear! MR. D.

JAMIESON: Because I had the dubious honour of having heard an orchestral group who were genuinely proud of themselves - I will leave out the city in Canada - and who brought me there and said, 'You are going to be pleased; we have done a Newfoundland suit~.· I sat there and I listened, and I might have gotten four bArs of the Kelligrews Soiree jammed in between a whole series of'trills', as I call them, and librettos and God-knows-what-else, and then a few more bars of Up the Pond, as we call it 1 but it was a disaster from a Newfoundland 1544

March 24, 1980 Tape No. 587 NM - 1 MR. J!'.}!IESON: point of view, or from a N~wfo~~dla~der's point of view, let me put it that way. And I make that point,by the way,in connection with some~~~ng else to which I hope I can come to before my time expires or before hen. members lose their patience with me 1 but I have had, I think it is fair to say, a fair amount of experience in both the creative arts and also, of course,in sports as we talked about a few moments ago. And I do think that we are now moving toward a position where some of these negative sides of those developments are going to be put behind us.

You know,I have had a lot of experience in my life, Mr. Speaker, and I will tell you one thins, again I do not know how relevant it is, but it is worth recording anyway, that of all of the things that are supposed to bring mankind together, whether it be at the provincial level, whether it be nationally or internationally, of all the things that are supposed to bring mankind together, which are supposed to be examples of our civilization, which are supposed to demonstrate that we have risen out of the mire of our beginnings, that two things which cause the most trouble are sports and arts and culture.

And I tell you, as someone who has been through the mill on things like the Commonwealth Games and on a variety of other issues of that kind, as we are seeing now vis-~-vis the Olympics, that unless this arts council understands and deals properly with its mandate we can see ourselves, and I can see a position in which far from creating a homogeneous kind of Newfoundlandia, that you will have an expansion of that historical difficulty that we have had all along the line. And I want to suggest a couple of ways in a moment as to how that can be prevented.

But let me at this stage challenge all members of this House to address a particular problem that I am not sure that we have given enough attention to as a people. I am not sure that, understandable though it may be, we have not been so pre-occupied with economic matters in this 1545

.March 24, 1980 Tape No. 587 ~!H - 2 :·t..~. :~...: :~~: Provi.-:ce, of r.e:;ec;si:.y l em;->hasize, we ?-~ve noc been so pre-occupied wi=h ~ha~ ~har we have no~ see~ ~hat has been going on around ~s and ~ne of the main reasons why this ~ill :.s so imporcar.;; and ::hac. is t."l.o reetarka.ble, very se::ious ,oc:ily enough, increase J.n c::e a:r.oun~ of leisure c.ime of cens of ::housancs o:. ocr people . 7-"le hisco::-y of ::Jus ?rovince th .a1: p:-oduced =he he::-i;;age I ha;:e spoken of, th at produced t:he kind of basis :or c.he ar=s ·.,e are speak.~.ng o: i:l chis bill , was a hiscory •,;!:ich meant: ::hac from daylight ~o dusk ~"ld beycnc ?90ple were ~~c.ally pre­ occu;;ied wl>:h ::he business o: simply staying aliv.: .

There ...,as t:hen no opporcc..;izy or ve-:y :e~· opportt:..:-"tit:ies !or leisure.

Su:. t.oday. even though we scill have very taro working people, and even tho~g:: t."lere are c~es during ~e fishery when da•NO to du~~ and beyond st:i!.l J.S t:rue, anc even though ti:ere a.:-e ocher ~o;orkers. perhaps in the l~-r wood£ and elsewhe re ~ho put: 1n a long day, and even though ther e may be housewives '"'ho are at it with large fa1n1lies for long pe .riods of time , give :. all those things , one of the real challeng.:s to us i.."l the eighties ~,d t.'l .e ninec.:.es anC. the twenty years le~= of c:u.s ?art:i~ula.r cent:urt will be to ensure that: ocr population ~c~s how co use le is-.J.r e effec~ively , and chat is one reason why t."lis bill is so important . !t is not going to solve the wnole probler..

In a moment I am going to exp re ss reservations as co . .,het:her it: is goi:tg to be ef::ecti'le or not 1 but 1546

Harch 24,1980 Tape No. 588 AH-1 :·lR. JAMIESON: i'..: is a start, it is something we hav~ to do. 3ut I have not the slightest doubt that han . members agree with ~e and agree with references that have been made by the member for Grand Bank (~r.Thoms) and the member for LaPoile (Mr.Neary) and others about the growth of things suc~as vandalism, permissiveness and a lack of concern for property,for other people, that most of these things have their origins in sheer,unadulterated boredom. part o= the problem. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! That is MR.

JJI.MIESOCI: Anyone who wants to move around Newfou~dland,as we all have to do in cur respective responsibilities, and meet with young people,will find one phrase more than any other that comes to the fore,and that i~"There is nothing for us to do:' And nine times out off ten you have to concede that they are right. so Mr. Speaker, if this Arts Council does nothing else but address itself to this phenomenon of the last part of the twentieth century, the phenomenon of people working, let us assume on oil and gas ,for instance; I am told that the process is two weeks on and two weeks off.

I know that on many vessels now operating around our coast there is two weeks on or two weeks off, twenty-eight days or whatever the cycle is, the implication is the same, that there are long periods of time when people,having worked hard,admittedly, face what Eor many of them? ~oonlighting if they can possibly get it in some instances,but I do not think the Minister of Labour (Mr.Dinn) is all that enthused about doubling up on well paid people. In addition to that ,I think we have something in the order of twelve paid holidays a year in Newfoundland. Is it twelve? MR. NEARY: Yes. 1547

o-!arch 24,1980 Tape No. 588 AH-2 11R. JAMIESON: I suppose three week's vacation with p~y is reasonably commonplace. The four day week is startin; to slide into certain kinds of employment. Certainly the great majority of people are five days. So if you ran all a= that through a computer you would find that of people's waking hours - never mind the hours they spend sleeping and perhaps they spend too many at that- fOU would find that the amount of time people have for leisure is greater than the amount of time that they are required to do a job in order to earn a living.

If you want a frightening statistis and I can confirm it, for our Western society, by the year 200 0 and perhaps some years before that, twenty-five per cent of all of the people alive at any given moment will be able to do the work of the remaining seventy-five per cent and themselves &s well. Science and technology and labour saving devices and a hundred and one other things will make that much difference. I will not explore that in too much detail, but the point is that it is in terms of arts and culture and these kinds of activities.

Now the second point that I want to make is one which I am curious about because I have not heard these figures since I have been in this House. I do not know whether I have even heard them alluded to. I have no doubt that the hon. the Minister of Manpower (Mr.Dinn) responsible for these matters has seen them and must be as concerned about them as I am.

On a single page,it is the demographic statistics of Newfoundland, the age distribution of the population as of December 11,1979, just a few months ago, and what we have in this Province is between infancy and age twenty-nine - and I suppose when I look around most of us would be on the other side of that twenty-nina- but from infancy to age twenty-nine in the Province as a whole we have 325,200 people under twenty-nine years of age 1548

:1arcn 25,1980 Tape NO. 538 AH-3 :•!R. J.e.:HESON: out off a ectal population in round figures of let us say 550,000 or something of that order. Call it 600,000? " ~R. HCaSE: 370,000 . MR. JA~!ESON: .=\.lright let us say chat. If you add on the next ten year group,bringing it up to thirty-nine, Jack Benny's - HR. NEARY: Now you are getting closer. MR • .J.I'.l1I2SON: -now you know you a~e getting closer,but you remember Jack Benny was the perennial thirty nine- if you bring it up to thirty-nine 1 we have 391,200, nearly 400,000 out of 570,000. And then 1549

March 24, 1920 Tape No.5B3 SD - 1 ~~R. D. Jk'liESON : in the next group,which is adding on those below fifty-four - " MR. S • NEARY: Now, that is better. MR. D . .JAMIESON: Now we are getting to it • '-:z::e we into it now? 1\N liON. MEMBER: Now you are talking. MR. D. JAMIESON : ______ we are now into 460,500 a~d if you are fifty-five years of age or older in ~ewfoundland today - MR. s. NEARY: You are over the hill. MR. D. JJL~IESON - there are only 77,000 more like you,out of 570,000 people, right. 77,100 over the age of fifty-five. MR. s. NEARY: We are representing the senior citizens. MR. D.

Jk~~ESON: Now, this House really ought to address itself, and I mean this seriously-! do not know at what point or how - to not only what those figures mean today but, much more significantly,what they are going to mean in the next ten to twenty years, because what is clearly going to happen is that the higher age bracket is going to increase and increase dramatically over the next twenty years, Furthermore, on the low end of the scale the numbers are, I suggest, likely to go down,because I believe it is a matter of record now that the family formations are smaller. MR. S. NEARY : MR. D.

JAMIESON: Unless 3rtifical inse~nation (inaudible) tlnless the member for LaPoile's artifical insemination question had more implications then it appeared on the surface to have had. Now, why do I qoote those figures this afternoon in relation to this particular bill? Because what I am saying here is that we have 171,200 females, 154,000 males under the aqe of twenty-nine who arc, in a sense, the core of the work force 1if you leave out the school children,and that leisure question becomes of immense importance.

Furthervore, that is where your creativity lies; you could extend it to thirty-nine if you like, you could extend it to forty or forty-two whichever,and there are plenty 1550

') Marc h 24, 1980 Tape No. 589 SD - 2 HR. D.

JAMIESON: of older people who st.ill have ,-, good deal of creativity left in them,~ ·1t that is where it has to come and that is where the efforts of thi~ arts eouncil, at least in the first instance, ought to be based. is important for another rea son Now, my emphasis on these statistics and that is because unless this group ur.derst~~ds t~at its most important activit y,and its mandate, I believe, is spelled out on the bottom of page one, "Establish a council et .c. to foster and promote the study, enjoyment of and the production of works in the arts of the Province and to encoura ge the preservation and public awareness of cultural heritage." Now, that is essentially it and I suppose quite properly ,as the fellow said, "You car. drive a truc k through that," it could be almost anything.

But what it ought to do more than anything else is be concerned with community involvement,with large numbers of people; this should not be an elitist group. And there is a real possibility, I suspect, that that could happen. I have seen it happen elsewhere, I have seen it happen before but really if this council is going to make Newfoundlanders ~TCre aware ,then it is not going to do it by some remote kind of activity being sponsored in some hoity-toity kind of climate or atmosphere where the ordinary person would not be exposed to it in a dozen or even a hundred years.

The whole concept behind this Bill of ensuring a greater awareness of our culture and our heritage means that it must find a technique and a method of getting to large numbers of people. And by the way, when I talk about leisure time, and I am sorry that the Minister of Education (Ms. L.

Verge) is not in the House this afternoon, but I would hope that in concert with the Department of Education - we have several teachers in this room,including a number on this side who might be prepared to agree with me - that one of the things that we will have to do in terms of the curriculum, in terms of working with this arts council is to teach people how to live alone, in a sense, how to be content with themselves, a greater sense of self-sufficiency . Because, once again, one of the problems that one sees in that 1 5 51

March 24, 1980 Tape :1>1o. 590 EL - l ~~. D. JAMIESON: up to twenty-nine age group is, of course, that put them on their own devices and they -are lost. The first thing they have to do is follow what I suppose you could describe as the herd instinct.

Now, our educational process surely must be at fault to some degree,and certainly this ~rts council can help in showing younger people how in solitude, if you wish to ' put it that way, in reading, in music, in creativity of their own kind, the sorts of things which many of us !ee around still in the smaller cc~~nities where people are engaged in arts and Crafts and things of that nature where you do~not need this kind of herd instinct, asii have come to call it 1in order to lead a very satisfying kind of life.

So the arts council can help in that regard. ~~~ one other thing I want to say about this problem and about t~e challenge facing this group, and that is that there is a tendency,ar.d I speak here as someone with, I think it will be conceded , fairly wide experience in the media, there is a tendency for arts councils of this sort to ignore the mass media; that unless it is on a stage somewhere, unless it is a personal kind of event that it is not a success and many, many groups have fal~ered and foundered because they have not used the most remarkable tool yet devised for the dissemination of information of a cultural and a heritage nature, namely,the broadcast media.

I always am, I do not know ~ether I would say bamboozled, but I am always certainly a little bit amused when I see reports, and this group will be the same, probably, saying at the end of it's first year,• We are pleased to report that 27,000 or 28,000 people saw &l•~h ana such a production when it toured all of Newfoundland last.year.•• 27,000 or 28,000! They will consider it to 1552

March 24, 1980 Tape No. 590 EL ,- 2 MR. D. JA!UESOll : be a real achievrnent 1and it will be 1 but if th~ went on the air at 4:00 a.m., on television, the chances are ~aey would pick up more people with that particular presentation than would be the case otherwise.

Now, they are not mutually exclusive, and I am not seeking to make that point,but I do suggest that if we are going to avoid a kind of elitism here, if we are going to be sure that the maximum degree of aware•ess is created,and believe me there are a lot of receptive minds in that 0 to twenty-nine who eo not have the same kind of awareness that we have and who, by the way 1 are wedded to the electronic media, if we are going to get them, then we cannot go the elitist route.

One other point of advice for this particular group : -~Y friend from LaPoile (S.Neary) spent a lot of time the other day and twas amazec "both by -he said he did not have a very good memory, but he did awfully well in terms of recalling the number of creative people who have come along over the years. To tell you the truth, I am not going to start mentioning any because I am going to leave some out and probably,like people said to you, you forgot this group or ~~u forgot the other group. MR. S. NEARY: I forgot the native group. MR. D.

JJL~ESON: You forgot the native group, I made some reference to them 1 but the facts are there to be seen for them- selves.

Every one of those who is a pro- fessional made it virtually on his own 1 and what I am saying here is that this ~ts council .I notice there is a reference in here, there is a reference to being able to' foster and promote, through grants and otherwise, the traditional arts of the Province and the ilrts of groups indigenous to the Province.' Strangely enough, it is my own contradiction here; , I agree with that and yet it worries me, because, you know, if we get into a granting structure that is not 1553

March 24,1980 Tape No. 590 EL - 3 MR. D. ,JA.'l!ESCN: properly handled, that is not properly dealt with, you will find that ~~ere will be mediocrity sucking at the public trough, MR. NEARY: t!:at. is what will happen. Ric;l:t on. 1554

March 2~, 1980 Tape 591 EC - 1 MR. D. Jk~IESON: You will find ~at ~is person or ~at person will get to somebody in the arts council and will say, 'She has a wonderful voice! She could be the diva of ~e Metropolitan Opera if only she had the chance!' So,therefore, this granting process, whatever it is, has got to be very carefully scrutinized. I do not know of very much by way of honest-to-God, top grade professional talent that will not come to the surface regardless.

It is nice and it is helpful that if someone is in a particular group, someone will single him out and say, 'Look, you should get professional training,' but ways are always found for that kind of thing. Tnere is very little of Gray's ~around as far as I could see in my years in the creative business, that if you have the talent it will surface. The other point, of course, is ~at there is a real tragedy, Mr. Speaker, involved when younger people who do not really have it are encouraged too much to believe ~~at they have.

I have seen a lot of lives that have been ruined, a lot of people who have been frustrated because they have spent years and years and have been very 1 very strict in holding to their training regime and the like, and just simply did not have it when the chips were down. So you do not do people any favour by making it easy for them to become professionally creative. In ~e long run, it will be a question of their own talent doing it. Certainly, there is room to be helped, and God knows, now across canada there are any number of awards, any number of places where that can happen.

But the theme I wanted to mention was that the arts council should not become just merely and simply and solely, or even primarily 1 a. group which is designed to help this or that person and to leave out the vast majority of the people. Now 1 Mr. Speaker, there is a great deal more I could say on this subject, but I think my time must be just about up, a.nd even if it is not, I think I have made most of the points that I wanted to get into this discussion and this debate. The whole key to it is going to be the people you appoint. That is the number one essential element.

The second thing is going to be that it has its own understanding and definition of 1555

March 24, 1980 Tape 591 EC - 2 MR. D. JAMIESON: what its mandate is and that everybody else knows what that ~andate is, so that we are all working, in a sense, from the same ground rules.

By the way, I do not thin.'< it is worth moving an amenement to this particular bill, but I would like to suggest that the government might want to give some thought, if it has not done so already, to including private contribution in this particular kind of fund, that at some stage it might be worthwhile to have various groups or individuals adding to the kinds of grants that are possi.ble under this partic,.llar programme .• But it is a good start.

Whether or not it will be enough, combined wi~~ all of the other things we are doing, to st~,d off the tremendous surge of mainland and North American and world influences ~~at are overwhelming us hour after hour, whe~~er or not a hwnble arts council is any match for an earth satellite bringing 250 sigr~ls into the television sets of the most remote part of Newfoundl~•d, whether that can be done is open to question, but it is a task tha~ is well worth trying and,certainly, the government have ~~e full support of this side of the House in putting this legislation through and we will watch its implementation with a great deal of interest and, I would hope, constructive criticism from time to time.

SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEAKER (R. Baird) : and Northern Development. SOME HON. ME.'IBERS: MR. J. GOUDIE: Hear, hear! The hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural Hear, hear! I wish to add my support today, Mr. Speaker, to this piece of legislation proposed by my colleague, the Minister of Tourism, Recreation and Culture (Mr. R.

Dawe), and, in my initial remarks, wish to associate myself with the comments put forth by the Leader of the Opposition, the gentleman who just took his seat, in some of the concerns he expressed and also to commend a gentleman who spoke on Friday for what I thought at least was his finest hour or finest twenty minutes, I think, as it turned out to be, the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary). I thought he made some very valid remarks and made them in a manner which was enjoyed, I know, by people on this side and certainly by people on the other side 1556

March 24, 1980 Tape 591 EC - 3 N.."'<. J. GOUDIS: cf ~~e House. In adding my support for this bill, Mr. Speaker, I have only three or fo~ observations to make. But 1557

March 24, 1980 Tape No. 592 NH - 1 MR. GQtii)IE: I thi!L'<: one observation made b0• the Leader of the Opposition which is very valid and which I can attest to in one sense in that I was a part of a function here about twelve years ago where a number of people from various parts of the Province were brought together to take

part in some discussions about the arts and heritage in general, but I think the idea of ar. arts council and the sort of action which an arts council would foster, or at least help foster, continue to foster in this Province, would be the bringing together of people from all parts of the Province. I think we might agree, Mr.

Speaker, that several years ago when the new Labrador Party was founded, one of the main reasons behind the foundation or the formation of that Party was that many of the people of Labrador felt that there was a lack of understanding a~d a lack of appreciation for probl~~s, tne lifestyles, some of the difficulties that the people of Labrador had living there at that time, and out of that frustration was born the New Labrador Party, and whether or not the people elected by that Party went about it in a way that was acceptable to everyone else in the han.

House, can be debated by each individual member in the House I would think 1 but that was the idea or the rationale behind the formation of that political party and I think the idea of people being able to get together through the arts is going to go a long way towards fostering a better understanding of the various lifestyles that we have. One thing that comes to my mind; I do not remember if it was 1977 or 1978, I had the opportunity to go down to the LSPU Hall one evening, along with the gentleman who was then the Leader of the Opposition 1 I believe, the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.

Roberts), to see a play put on by the Mummers, 1558

March 24, 1980 Tape No. 592 l'."M - 2 MR. GOUDIE: a play called Weather Pe=mitcing. I do not know if anyone else in the hon.

House here today ~ad the opportunity to see that particular play, but "hat the group had done was taken about six weeks of their time, prior to presenting this play, and lived in b;o or three communities on the Coast of Labradcr, became familiar with at least the immediace lifestyle of people there, and through talking with residents of these comrn~,ities learned a little bit about the history of each area, and the detail which they presented in that play Weather ?ermitting, and the way in which they presented it, I thou9ht went a long way toward illustrating some of the old lifestyles of some parts of Labrador and some of the present day •;alues that peol~ have ~~ere as a result of that lifestyle and some of the difficulties they have gene through.

I had ~~e honour at one time as well of having worked with the broadcasting media, radio, fer ten years. I had an opportunity to interview quice a nurr~er of people in various parts of the Province. But in 1967 for che lOOth. Anniversary of Confederation, I had the opportunity of wcrking with a colleague of mine and between the two of us put together fifty-two half hour radio shows called ~abrader History.

And most of these interviews have been kept in the Archives of the CBC station where I worked and they are being made available now to groups like Them Days Magazines, who put out a quarterly publication recalling some of the history, stories, and values of the days gone by. one of the things,though 1that I think I enjoyed as a broadcaster more than anything else was in 1966,for the Corne Home Year celebrations I think they were called then, was having travelled to all the communities on the North Coast of Labrador, from Rigolet to Nain, interviewing people, but I was also 1559

~larch 24, 1930 Tape No. 532 >l:t. - 3 2·!R. GOUDIE: s:nt ~:l record a -;ruup of Inuit ?Eople who had formed a choir, sevente~n i!'ldividuals singing ar..d one !)erson plc.ying an organ 1 recorded t~1.is group. ..~he ~Ioraviar. Church in turn got a copy of that particular tape that I did and haC it made into a long-play aloum and I understa~d as a result of that albl..l.o"':'i :.v!lich the ~ora viaE Church released, that grou;;, the Nain choir, ':las brougflt do\tJ!l to St. John 1 s and some other parts of the Province for 1560

Nar ch 24, 1980 Tape No. 593 D~1 - 1 MR . .J. GOUDI::: : a number of performances and were very well received in the areas in which they performed.

I think one of the most interesting things I discovered about that particular group at that time was that one of the things that they had done -they had done several things such as teaching themselves to sing the various parts of music; the gentleman who was playing the organ played one of these four console things, completely self-taught~but one of the major accom­ plishments I t~ought that they were able to bring about was that they translated the music which they had performed for that album,and other selections which they do in other places, translated it directly from the German language into the Inuit language, the Inukitut 1 without going through that English translation at all.

The sheets of music that they had used to sing from which had been passed down from father to son 1and mother to daughter ,! suppose,was all handwritten, there were no mechanics involved in any kind at all and apparently it was a very difficult process to translate from German to Inukitut and get the message across at the same time. But they apparently were able to do that and put on quite a presentation over a period of several months in various parts of the Province.

I think the Leader of the Opposition's (Mr . .Jamieson) comment about the effects of large-scale developments in this Province on our tradi- tiona! lifestyles is again a very valid comment. Every- one, I guess, is th{nking these days about the potential of offshore oil and gas and so on. In my .particular area if certain developments go ahead, if they do , .it is going to have an implication on lifestyles as well, I think, when you think in terms of further hydro develop­ ments, possibly year-round transportation in and out of Labrador, the woods industry and so on. So lifestyles 1561

March 2~, 1980 Tape No. 593 Dl~ - 2 MR . J. GOUDI::: : are going to change and we in the Happy Va1ley - Goose Bay area, I know have been used to that kind of process si~ce the 1940's whe~ we were set upon, if you will, by the American culture and values, the Canadian at that time and the British 1 through the establishment of the bases at Goose Bay 1 and we were very much a very cosmopolitan area for quite a number of years.

And, of course, the different values, the differe~t art forms that took place, the country and western singers coming up from the southern sta~es, the English performers coming over from Britain, the Canadian performers coming across from all parts of Canada led us to some points of confusion at various times in our lifestyles when we consider what had taken place before that.

Just one example, for instance, a very mundane example, if you will, of one of the changes that took place: My father and oldest brother were trappers, well 1 all of Dad's life and most of Horace's life,and they travelled inland every year in September in an eighteen foot freighter canoe taking four to five months supply of foodstuffs and ~o on with them to tramp in on what is called the heights of land and new the the Smallwood Reservoir 1 that is the area flooded by the hydro development 1 and as a result they were very stringent having to carry so much weight such a great distance, they were very stringent in what they used to take with them.

For instance, they were able to build, all of these trappers, not just Horace and Dad,but all of these trappers were able to build a cabin usually eight by eight feet square and five or six feet tall with fourteen nails. Obviously anyone carrying fifteen or twenty pounds of nails 300 miles inland ~ a fairly - well, it is unnecessary load for people to carry along. So they had ·everything cut pretty fine. 1562

Mar c:. 24, 1980 Tape No. :;9J ow - 3 ~ . J . GO!Jt:! ::: ~nd , ot course, one o= :he, I guess in th .e old days and · still today 1one of the favourite commodities that they used to take along in addition to the tea and grease and a few other things, was tobacco, And everyone had makings in those days but after the hase was built in Goose Bay they would usually carry maybe a ten dollar SU?ply of tobacco with them in th ·e Fall which was to last them anywhere from three to five months depending on the run of furs.

On~ day a friend of my b~other's was working with the American air force and he offered to take his book in that week, his tobacco book,and purchase stemu-as we call it home, the Indians call it-for the two fellows going in the country.So they gave him the ten dollars that they would have no~mally used to purchase tobacco for their trip and he came back about an hour later with four arm leads like you would carry an armload of chunks ef wood all piled up and this 9uy came back with four armle~ds of ~igarettes, tailor-made as well, ! might ad4,which went a long way to their enjoying the trapping activities that particular Winter than they would have had they gone in with the makings the way they used to.

I do not know if I am getting off the topic or not, Mr. sp .eaker, but I guess our heritage sort of 1563

March 24,1980, Tape 594, Page 1 -- apb HR. GOUDIE: dictates our culture and it all goes together. I am not all that familiar with performers in this Province. I ~~ familiar with a couple. One gentleman in Labrador I worked with,in terms of having recorded his music and assisted in putting out a couple of his albums, was Gerald Mitchell. MR. LUSH: are here. MR .• GOUDIE: A lot of the performers That is true. A lot of the performers are here in this very Chamber, yes. Gerald Mitchell,who is a very accomplished artist as well - I think the member for Terra Nova (Mr.

Lush) might, having spent some time in Labrador, have been exposed to Gerald Mitchell's paintings, I am not sure. But one of the fine things I think, that has happened to Mr. Mitchell is that he has been painting now for, I do not know, fifteen or sixteen years, I guess, and at one time was not all that polished an artist and as a result his paintings were selling for very low prices. But I visisted the gentleman during the Christmas Season horne and he is getting a much better price for his paintings. They are a much better quality, I think, than what they were when he first began.

Obviously people improve with years when they keep on practicing the same trade. But he is now moving back to Makkovik, his birth- place, to study the sea, I think is the way he put it, to try and expand the type of paintings he has been doing in the past and also carry on with his music that he has been going along with as well. The Leader of the Opposition mentioned, I think, that he had been exposed to - did he say a Newfoundland suite? - this weekend, a montage of music that had been collected 1564

~ March 24, 1980, Tape 594, Page 2 -- apb MR. GOUDIE: or put together and presented by someone or other. The only performer, I guess, that I am familiar with at all on the Island part of the Province is a girl by the name of Laverne Squires. I do not know if anyone in the Chamber has heard her perform or not.

But she and some of her colleagues in music have been trying, I guess, to promote =or years, certainly since I have known her, the last thirteen years, the Newfoundland folk songs and digging up many of the old ones and travelling around the Province and collecting by word of mouth from some of the old timers in the various parts of the Province some of the songs that were written and composed in years gone by and putting them forward.

So I think the more people we can get involved in the arts these days to try and preserve some of the things that we have inherited from our forebearers, be they songs, stories or whatever, then they should be encouraged as much as possible to do that. I would hope that this type of bill, to establish an Arts Council, would go towards doing that type of thing. Of course, the ability of people to tell stories - the Leader of the Opposition, I think,. referred to my mother. There are other people.

Ben Powell - I do not know if anyone has read his book Labrador By Choice which was recently releasee - Ben Powell, I guess, was the father of Charlottetown in Labrador, having moved there and then literally, in many ways, built the place over the years. Farley Mowat's boo~ about th~ White Eskimo, which was released several years 1565

March 24, 1980, Tape 594, Page 3 -- apb !-1R. GOUDIE: ago, I think is another very valuable addition to writings relating to Labrador and to the Northern part of our Province. We have a poet in Labrador as well, Mr. Harvey Mesher. I do not if anyone has read his works or not, but he has done some in the past. I do not know how well his writings have sold but I think hon. members,if they had the opportunity to read his particular publication,might find some his writings rather interesting.

The arts, I guess, have begun to come on stream in Labrador, in our part of the Province, more in the last few years than previous to that. The Carol Players out of Labrador City - lvabush, out of that area, have won quite a number of awards provincially for the type of work they have done. Kathy Pottle, I think, one of the people associated with the Carol Players,has done some script writing and I believe they presented one or two of her plays over the years as well.

And they have gone on to national competitions and have made quite a name for themselves over the years and, apparently, are continuing on in that vein according to what they have been telling me and some other people recently, at least. The Mokami Players, as well. The Ike Rich Players. I do not know if anyone in this Chamber, Mr. Speaker, knows or knew the late Isaac Rich out of Happy Valley - Goose Bay. The member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) knew him when he was alive. Almost a culture onto himself, I thiM. 1566

!-larch 24, 1980, Tape 594, Page 4 -- apb :.!R . lVAR.~~! : SO:.!E nON • :·!E:·iBERS: ~1R . GOt:nn:: I ~~ still ali ve boy. Oh , oh! i~hen the late ~r . Rich was alive. Obviously the me."llber !or Torngat ~!ountains (Hr . \\ arre~ ) is still alive and Y..ic!<i:lg . But t.'te late ?-lr . Rich died within t.~e last year and he , ~P until his death , was one of the fe':l :::emaining , I do not know if there is anyone left new , J?eOple in Labr ado r who 1567

March 24, 1990 Tape No.S95 EL - 1 MR . J. GOt.rDIE: was educated under a ~cheme put forth by Sir Wilfred Grenfell and carried on by o~~er people in ~~e IGA whereby they took students, or took people out of Labrador and took them to various schocls.

Isaac himself had gone to school in Boston and finished his high school and some university work there before he came back and went trapping on the height of la~ in Labrador. : occasiollally receive telephone calls, ~~d this is just a sort of preliminary remark to what I ~. going to say nex!:, receive telephone calls~ as a r.-atter of fact, the last one I got was regarding a speech ~ade last week by the member for Torngat Mountains(G. Warren) from the ladies up in Hansard wanting tc know the spelli:1g of certain place names and people's names in Labrador.

I guess place names, people's names and so on are also very much a part of our heritage because many of them have been dictated by incidents or lifestyles or whatever in a given area. I think we have some beautiflll: names in Labrador and to put diem on the record, Mr. Speaker, I wanted to mention them and I will also tell the ladies in Hansard 1 who are busily typing now no doubt, that I will be up a little later on to give them the spellinqs :;o that they are not mispelled in the records.

But Michikamou, which was at one time the larqest body of fresh water in this Provinceis, now a part of the Smallwood Reservoir up at Churchill Falls is one, Shak>uqamou is another one. I: do not kn~ if thilt is the one the gentleman was 1;alking IWout last week or not. Kenilll!ll, the Xen11111u River, one of the best salmon rivers around, I suppose. I:t used to be 1 ~thoUJjh it is not much of a salmon river anymore. I: <JUI!S~ the salmon havE- - MR. S. NEARY : MR. J. GOUDIE: no.- (Inaudible) find out About that one? - I: do not think he was ever there, 1568

March 24, 1980 Tape No. 595 RA - 2 .MR. S • t.'EA l~ Y : Cinaadible) th at was onl v (i n.;on di hl"l . MR. J. GOODIE: I do not think he was ever there. But I was told an interesting sto~y one time by my brother and a couple of friends of his. This was one of the last areas in our part of Labrador where the Indians used t-o haxvest the saltr.on in the old traditional way, where they took their canoes at night and went out with the birch bark torches and speared the~ ~n the spawning grounds. And there was an interesting story about a Mr.

Blake living at North· West River,who was about five foot one, I guess 1 and one day decided he was going to spear a sixty pouna salmon in the canoe and the story is fairly interesting about the fun they had, or he had 1 trying to get the salmon aboard t!'le canoe after he had speared the thing and not being big enough to handle the fish, lost it and lost his canoe and lost the whole works afterwards anyway. Sebasquachu, Mr. Speaker, is another very interesting place name, I think, about ten miles below No~ West River, I do not know, perhaps the member for Torngat has been the~e as well.

The present Minister of National Revenue, . Mr. Rompkey, speads Easter time in that area at --ll,actually at. Mullig.n itself where there axe quite a number of Slllllller homes built by residents of North West River. Butthe Sebasquachu River is also a ver1 popular fishing spot in the spring and early Kinter. The Moonie Rapids on the Churchill River itself, Mr. Speaker, one of the areas which will provide us, I hope, with additional hydro power some day another very colourful name. I guess ve are all familar with the Mealy Mountains .

I lalow my colleague who is introducing J;~is bill the Minister of Tourism (R.Dawe) 1will be invited up there shortly. ,JFether or not he will have tiJM to 99 I do not know 1but he will certainly be invited there bye: some of the people connected with the snowgoose Mountain Ski Club to investigate or look at; the possibilities of having skiing activities carried on in the Mealy's, one of the very real tourist ' potential areas in this Pro .vince in terms of winter sports and skiing and at Tomgat Mountains which means "dwelling place of the devir ; I ·thir..k, something like that, North of Nain - ~· S.

NEARY: -.ot the hon. ~ntlernan again? 1569

Masc!l 24, 1980 Tape No. 595 RA - 3 MR. J. GOUDIE: c'i">':. the hon. gentleman again, no. I have had hi~ dead onee and a deVil on another hand but no, that is not what I am saying at all but & very c:olourful nallle anQ. a very ~al part of our Province and one of the areas, if it ever is brought about I guess, to be inclilded in our National Park,one of the two areas discussed , the Mealy Mountains area being the o·ther discussed li!st year. The Kiglapait as well would fit into that or come within the confines I would think of a National Park. Hebron anc Okhakh, more place names but - pardon - MR.

WARREN: Ad.latok. !o!:R . J. uot=:: Ye .s, Adlatok is another one but I guess we will not discuss that one any further. MR. S. NEAR%: ~!R . J. <;OODI:l: (inaudible) familiar with that one here. !'amili.r with, yes. Of course, we are very fULiliar with that one,'also a .very scenic and attractive part of our Provinc e~ MR. S. NEARY: MR. J. GOUDIE ·: (inaudible)the real ~er·oY Adl.atck. Mr.

Speaker, I had the opportunity to address the eombined councils Conference a coupl.e of -eks ago, in ~rth West River and at that t~e I indicated that one of the things we were trying to do in telllis of helpblg preserve a heritage, I 1570

March 24, 19 80 Tape No. 596 so - l MR. J. GCUDIE : suppose, in our part of the Province was to try and get incluced in the next DREE agreement so~~ funds to provide for the construction of a museum in Labrador which brings in as wel~ related to this effort,the Labrador Heritage Society which has, I think, now three or perhaps four branches,at least ~~ree branches in Labrador. And one of the main objectives when that Society was set up several years ago was to try and have some of the items returned to Labrador which had been removed.

Red Bay, for instance, is very concerned now that all of the artifacts and so on from the Basque whaling qalleon will be removed from the area and never !::>rought back. We reali2e that scientists have to remove items from a given area to study them and date them and evaluate them and so on 1but we think it is also very important, not only for Labrador but for oti:er parts of the Province, that these items be returned eventually. MR. G. WARREN: Where do they take these items ~ MR. J.

GOUDIE: At Red Bay, what they are suggesting~d it will probably take place, since I think Ottawa is the only location in Canada where they can carry out certain dating techniques of the wood and other artifacts that are related to this ~asque galleon, hut the point I was going to make here was that one of the areas which was a receiving area, if you will, for many of the artifacts and documents and so on that came out of Labrador is BoWden College in Bruns-.iick, Maine. TC.ey have a !llllSeum there and one entire

section of that museum is set !I.Side - the first thing you see 1 as a matter of fact,when you walk into the museimt is a stuffed harp s-1 and a couple of bedlamers there as well and a couple of young seals - that is what they look like to me. In any event, there is a tremendous a.Dr:lunt of hunting iliJ?lements, cooking implements, archives, pressed flowers, all sorts of things there· I have made two visits there, I believe, so far. I have been dealing with the Vice-President of Bowden College and we have an agreemant in principle, at least, that if a buildinq can be constructed in Labrador suitable to accomodate 1 5 71

!-!arch 24, 1980 Tape No. 596 SD - 2 ~1:<!.. J. GOUDIE : this type of thing, fireproof and safetyproof and so on,then Bowden College is interested in beginning discussions to establish which items would be brought back to Labrador and left there in this centre and become the responsibility of the museum itself but also the Labrador Heritage Society which was • MR. S. !TEARY: ~~ere would you put the building, North, South? MR. J. GOUDIE: That h~s not been determined yet. Mr.

Speaker, what I would suggest is that these items,I think,would have to be brought back to a central. area first and then brought on to the other respective areas from which they originated eventually. tn the hen. member for Torngat Mountains district (Mr.

G. warren), up at Hopedale . there is quite a collection of items there, ':.'he building itself is what - over 200 years old now, I believe - wooden structures that were built by the ~ravian Mission and I am told, and I believe it is accurate, that these buildings were the first prefab buildings that were ever brought to at least that part of the Province, or perhaps any part of the Province, they were all made in Germany and brought over and assembled in the community of Hopedale itself. So, I think these are all very important items to be concerned with a.s well.

I realize that we are talking about an Arts Council here, l'..r. Speaker, bllt again I say my feeling is that our heritage determines, to a great extent, the art in which we are presently involved and the art which we have inherited over the years and for that reason I would like to add my support to all members who have spoken so far, Mr. Speaker, on this particular debate, add my support for this Arts Council which vill be established after this Bill receives approval and passage by the hon.House and commend my colleaque for his introduction. I thought he made some excellent remarlt.s.

Someone said, I think, that he vas reading his speech or s0111ething like that, p"!rhaps he was, I do not know. I thought his remarks were very val.id as were the remarks of the member for LaPoile (Mr. s. Neary), the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. D. :Jamieson), and everyone else who spoke so far. 1572

March 24, 1980 SOME EON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEA.~R: (Mr. Baird) SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. T. LUSH: Ta.pe No. 596 SD - 3 Hear, hear. The hon. member for Terra Nova. Hear, hear. Mr. Speaker, it is certainly refreshing to take

part in this kind of non-adversary, non-confrontation sort of discussion 1573

March 24, 1980 Tape No. 597 GH-l MR. LUSH: about a bill, about a piece of legislation that we all support, And when one looks at a piece of legislation that seems so commonplace, really, chat seems so logical, one wonders why such a piece of legislation was not passed a long, long time ago. I suppose it has to do with the development and the advancement of our society that sometimes delays the presentation of legislation that seems quite obvious and quite logical. It was quite refreshing, Mr. Speaker, to listen to the han. member, the last member who spoke.

He brought back many memories to me of my associations in Labrador when he was speaking to this particular bill, And he himself, Mr. Speaker, comes from a tremendous background. A moment ago when he was talking about performance, r was indeed reminded of him, because he himself is an exceptional performer. He ran a CBC program for years in Goose Bay. I just forget what the program was called but, as I recall it, he was playing the part of an old furrier, an old trapper, and he did a commendable job. It was a program that I loved to listen to every day and he did a marvellous job.

Then, of course, it is his mother who has made quite a name for herself, of late, in literature, in trying to preserve the Labrador culture particularly as it relates to hunting and trapping, almost a part of our culcure that is now becoming extinct in a way. It is certainly encouraging to note that people have attempted to get these experiences down on paper to preserve them for future generations. Because, Mr.

Speaker, as I have said, it is a culture, it is a thing of our past that is becoming extinct and it is something that future generations will not be able to appreciate other than through the legacy and in terms of literature that people like the han. member's mother has left for us to delve into and to study and to appreciate. I always remember when I was in Labrador myself the enjoyable conversations that I would have with many of the furriers and the trappers. As a matter of fact, the area that they would frequent to hunt and trap was in the area of Churchill Falls where the new hydro plant then went.

Many of the developments, as a matter of fact, sort of ruined, if you will, the areas in which they hunted. It was tremendous to chat to those people and find out their experiences, 1574

.:-:.arch 2 .... , 1980 Tape lio . 597 G;, -2 I·L, . t.wS?i: how t.i"te y ·.rould leave Goose 3ay ar.d No=:- , :-:~st !liver t.o mal<e that long trip up to Churchill :"alls a.nC. be there fer two ~~d tr .ree months alor.e in their o·Nn little lefu"l -tos, as they were ~oL"'lg . They ·Nere taking care of c..ltei r iine, and =::ey ·.o~e:-e m.en of t:.re:nenCocs courage, men of treme!"'.cious fortituce .

It is a pa.::t of our literature that is rat.'"ler thin, real .ly , a."!d ·.re ough:. to oe:!:tainly pay great respect to people lLT(e tne hon . memb er's mot her who has mac~ a great effort to ma!ce sure that that par-e of the Labrador c~:lture, L"'l p~_ic~a.r, is preserveO O:or :u ·t:ure qene~ations~ ;>.not:her aspect. of our owr. culture tha:: = ::inc is lacki:tg is :.n the area of t:he fo res try a:tC logging i:t particular . That. was, again, another tremendous feature of ~e :-~e•,;found.lami c'.llture t:hat again, with technology , is almost exTh"lct . 1575

March 24, 1980 Tape 598 EC - 1 MR. T. LUSH: you know, that was again a tremendous area, a rich culture.All of those men from all parts of Newfoundland went in the lumber woods and stayed for months on end and the great experiences of those people, these hard working people, the deprivation and the conditions under which they worked. I find again that this is probably another area where we have not done a tremendous amount of writing. There is some, but not, certainly, ~~e kind or the volume that one would like to see in that particular area.

I think we have a fairly substantial amount of our literature that takes into account our fishing and this sort of thing, but logging and trapping, in particular, are two areas - AN HON. MEMBER: The B~dger Drive. MR. T. LUSH: Badqer Drive - well, we have it reflected in our folk songs, certainly, but in terms of what I would call literature, in terms of stories, novels, that sort of thing, very little done in that respect.

It is a rich area, and as I said again, something that is going out of fashion, if you will, with technology taking over and not as many logging camps around when people commute rather than stay in the lumber woods, And I expect the Minister of Health (Mr. w. House) knows all about it, because I understand he worked in the logging camps as I did - a great experience, an experience that I would not have given up for anything, a tremendous experience. So, Mr.

Speaker, we support this bill because it is, as I have said, a bill that is long overdue and because of what it is doing, trying to encourage &nd promote the study and enjoyment &nd production of works in the arts of the Province and to encourage the preservation and public awareness of cultural heritage. And,Mr, Speaker, in the act it sort of outlines what the arts include and as we look down ' ' through these I ~ sure there is hardly a member as we look down through all of these but instantaneously a name comes to us of some person in our own area, a person who would fit into either of these.

As we think of 1576

Marc.'l 24, 1980 Tape 598 MB - 2 MR. T. LUSH: the theatre we can think of people that have made it at the national level as the hon. member from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) was mentioning when he was talking the o~'ler day. MR. NEAl<.Y: He got another award, by ~'"le way, since I mentioned him. HR. T.

LUSH: Yes, that is right._ When you think of dance I all' sure that everybody can immediately think of people in their own community that were tremendous dancers whether they be these old fashion square dances and tap dances, and.of ccurse,getting u~ to the modern times, as the hon. member for LaPoile was talking about the other day, when they have a disco en~ry in the Guinness Book of World Records doTNTI in Port aux Basques MR. S. NEARY : You do not get any~'ling for that. All they send you is a tie and you have to pay for that. MR. T. LUSH: Is that right?

But the point of the matter is that just aboc.t any of these ,we can think of people who have displayed tremendous talent.

Literature - again in the last few years we have had a goodly number of people in writing Newfoundland literature, be it in history or be it the pure fiction or whatever, a number of Newfound­ land books coming out by Newfoundland and Labrador authors and indeed getting more and more of ti1is kind of materials in our schools now, and of course it is being promoted by ~'"le government and by the Department of Education and certainly some~'ling that we· on this side commend and hope that we can get more of it as this council will, no doubt,do.

But there has been a tremendous in­ crease in the amount of Newfoundland literature in aur schools. For a number of years now we have had history books in our schools written by Newfoundland authors,, geography books and other fictional materials and non-fictional materials, novels and this sort of thing by Newfoundland authors , and you know that makes school more interesting.

Th~is something psychological about reading a textbook and reading names of Labrador and of Newfoundland and quite a change from looking at names in the U.S. and names from up-a- long and it makes a kid more interested, it is something with which he can relate when he sees Come By Chance and when he sees Goose Bay, and to say nothing, of course, of the music in the names that the hon. member again was mentioning.when he was talking about Lake Michikamou and all of these others. 1577

March 24, 1960 Tape 598 M.B - 3 MR. T. LUSH: And I again became very nostalgic remembering all the large fish that I pulled out of that lake - Lake Michikarnou - and fished 1578

March 24, 1980, Tape 599, Page 1 -- apb MR. LUSH: in many of the rivers and lakes to which he was referring. But, Mr. Speaker, there has been,certainly,an increase in Newfoundland literature and certainly an effort by educators to bring it all together and to get it into our schools. Just a comment on that: I am not sure that I ascribe to this excessively. I think that there has been, possibly, and overemphasis by people in certain segments of society to bring in Newfoundland literature. I think we have to have a balance. I do believe that we are moving in the right direction.

I believe we have plenty of Newfoundland materials in our schools, not that we do not need any more. I certainly would like to see whatever we can get in out libraries but I particularly refer to school texts and this sort of thing. I think there is a limit to that sort of thing. I do not think we need to brainwash our people year after year with nothing but Newfoundlandia, as the educational people call it. I think there has to be a balance and I think there is probably a fair amount of Newfoundland literature in our schools now, particularly in terms of literature and in terms of geography.

I think what we can do is possibly make the courses a little more sophisticated maybe, and have one of the - let us say, for example - we do them I believe at the moment. Newfoundland History is done in Grade V, I believe, as is Newfoundland Geography. I believe, maybe, that that might be a little bit - I was going to say a little bit too early maybe, but MR. TULK: It is too heavy. MR. LUSH: Yes, it is a little too heavy, it is a course that should be done,maybe,in Grade VIII or - 1579

Harch 24, 1980, Tape 599, Page 2 -- apb AN HON. MEMBER: (_Inaudible) . MR. LUSH: Grade VI. Well, the minister says I believe it is even a little too advanced for that, particularly certain parts of it. But Grade V is a little too early for the kinds of texts that we now have there.

So rather than promoting more Newfoundland materials in the school in terms of textbooks, I think t.;e have to work on what we have there and maybe make sure that we put a good course in geography, or a good course in history, or put it together as social studies and put it, maybe, in Grade VIII or Grade IX where kids at that time can really appreciate what they are doing. Because I think Grade V is a little too early for the kinds of materials that we are now doing. But anyway, Hr. Speaker, that was just a by-the-way. I was suggesting that, looking at all of these arts, instantaneously people come to our minds.

We cited theatre, dance, folk arts, literature and then music. If there is one thing that Newfoundlanders have a lot of talent in it is certainly music. Again, the member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary) , when he made that excellent speech that he made on Friday, I think it was, made some reference to the fact that he could not play a musical instrument. But, you know, he did illustrate a Newfoundland characteristic that .I find, more than in any o~~er group of people, and that was that he loved music.

Even though he C:.:>uld not play music,'did not have a note in his bones', he said that he loved music and would love to be able to play. And, you know, this is what I find about Newfoundlanders, they have a great appreciation for music. I am amazed at all of the talent that is around. As I travel throughout this 1580

March 24, 1980, Tape 599, Page 3 -- apb MR. LUSH: Province just about everTNhere you go they have their own bands. You go to a club on a Saturday night and you hear the music; there is good music coming out of there and you say, "Now, where is that band from?" You possibly L~ink ~~ey are from Grand Falls or L~ey are from Corner Brook, but the band is from here, from here in Traytown, or from here in Gamba, or from here in Glovertown or whatever. It is tremendous the number of bands that are around. And the talent that they display, tremendous, tremendous ability.

And it has ahvays been that way because there are so many Newfoundlanders who can play so many musical instruments, be it an organ, or be it a piano accordion or a harmonica. I have just never seen the like, the number of Newfoundlanders who can play musical instruments. MR. JAMIESON: By ear . MR. LUSH: That is right. You get into a party and it is ten or twelve, you can be sure that somebody there in that group can play some kind of musical instrument. There is no question about it, great talent in the area of music.

And, of course, I suppose when one looks at it it was brought about by our geographical location, by our climate and all of these factors together, where people tried to be creative to make themselves happy, to try and entertain themselves and out of that came a great culture, a great heritage. And many of these people, Mr. Speaker, in all of these areas could have become famous people if at that particular time, possibly, we had had an arts council, somebody who would direct them, somebody who could instruct the~ as to which way to go, this sort of thing, how to get 1581

March 24, 1980 Tape No. 600 IB-1 ~R. LUSH: organized in whatever area they were in. What tremendous, tremendous talent all over this Province in the area of music and I expect there are members in thi£ hon. Assembly, members here who have great prowess, great skill with some musical instrument. The han. member himself was a great trumpet player and can play any kind of a wind instrument. And I suppose that fits him as a politician, can ~lay any kind of a wind instrument. I do not want to make it too much known around because people will want me to display. MR. JAMIESON: You do not want to blow your own horn. MR.

LUSH: That is right. But it is tremendous as I said, Mr. Speaker, the amount of music talent that is around us and it never ceases to amaze me when I go out around, as I say,on a Saturday night and go into this particular cl~b and go into that particular club and hear bands playing and come out with great music and ask where they are from, you know, they are right from the area. AN HON. MEMBER: What club? MR. LUSH: Well,Saturday night,and it is not so much the club I like the music. I hear the music and I want to go in and I want to listen to it.

I have tremendous appreciation for music and wherever I hear it I have to find out who it is that is doing it. As a matter of fact 1 I was responsible for bringing the first Newfoundland band into Churchill Falls because, as I have told this hon. House so many times, everybody seemed to in Labrador or in Churchill Falls, that part, everybody was aimed towards Quebec and when you had a big party and you had to bring in a band, of course, these people who organized that sort of thing thought 1582

March 24, 1980 Tape No. 600 IB-2 MR. LUSH: that the only place to get a good band was in Quebec but I tell you I taught them a lesson. As a matter of fact, we brought in three bands from here in one year and made a tremendous impression on the people in Churchill Falls. I am just trying to remember the names, but one was the Garrison Hill Band - I do not know if they are still going now - and the other one was the band that was very popular at the time - oh golly what were they calledl I just forget. Skinner, do you know what group he is in? MR. F. ROI•IE: No, I do not. MR.

LUSH: Anyway it was a West Coast band but it came out of here in St. John's. Then ,of course 1 we had our own local fellows down there from down around Goose Bay and North West River who sometimes would play in between, you know,instead qf taking a break .

I remember one time it was very, very embarassing where they had our local band there , and it was for a Christmas party , and we had this band brought in from Montreal supposed to be a real top-notch band and people would say that rather than have a break have a local band to play because lots of times those fellows would not play the kind of music you would like and it was at this particular time - I believe it was a Christmas party - it became very embarassing when the big band was playing nobody was on the floor. It was only during the break when the local band played that the floor became filled.

So anyway I think enough said about that particular point to illustrate the tremendous talent that is in this Province in music ~nd 1 I suppose 1 here again in St. John's. The han. Leaaer of the Opposition (Mr. Jamieson) and the han . member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary), both mentioned Mr. Robert McLeod. Today we have two people in St. John's who have made a great impact in the musical field and that is Ignatius Rumboldt, the man at Memorial University who has done a tremendous job in doing 1583

~larch 24, :9SO Tapa tl~. 60 0 !S-3 MR . L~SH: our own songs here !n 3ew~ou n dland, has a cc~ple of records ouc . And chen there is another person who ~ight not ~e ~s well known co a lo: of ho~. members b~c a ~an wto has made a tremendous contriourion in church music and that is Or. Eri= A~bott who has ~ace a tremendous con~r~bution 1n the field of Salvation Army ~usic and that is no mean feat ! can assure you because in the realm of Salvation Army music there is a tremendous a~ount of ~c and he has mace a na~e for himself internationally with respect co Salvation Army rnusis in its composition and also in song.

So JUSt a~ou~ anywhere along the line chat any hon. member can mention people who have made tremendous concribucicns in one way or another in the New:oundland culture. Just in literacure, I passed thac one but aqain on the line of talking about people who have made a great contribution, a 1584

Marc h 24, 1980 Tape No. 601 DW - 1 ~R. T. LUSH: a young and upcoming artist in my own district , I am sure a person who we should all know about and I am sure the Minister of Health {~r. House) knows about him, Kevin Major. Again a young man who has been . making a great impression in literature.In the last little while he has won, I think, two or three awards 1 in the last couple of years, and last year was asked to tour Canada in selected areas to read selections from his writings.And so a·tremendous talent in Newfoundland in several of those areas. I wanted to make a comment. We have been talking about sports although there is nothing in this to suggest it