Manitoba Hansard — 28 May 2002 (Sitting 38, 37th Legislature, 3rd Session)

37-3-38

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

� � Third Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LII No. 38 - 1:30 p.m., Tuesday, May 28, 2002

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARREIT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA Y, Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HA WRANIK, Gerald HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWAY,Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEV AKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank REID, Daryl REIMER, Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCHELLENBERG, Harry SCHULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITH, Scott, Hon. STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charles wood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Lac du Bonnet Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Rob lin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C.

N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

1861 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, May 28, 2002 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Standing Committee on Public Accounts Third Report Mr. Edward Helwer (Chairperson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Third Report of the Committee on Public Accounts. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Your Standing Committee on Public Accounts presents the following as its Third Report. Mr. Speaker: Dispense? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Some Honourable Members: Read it. Mr. Speaker: Read it? They want it read.

Madam Clerk: Meetings: Your committee met on Monday, May 27, 2002, at 10 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legislative Building.

Matters Under Consideration: Provincial Auditor's Report on Value-for Money Audits for the period ending June 2000 Provincial Auditor's Report on the Operations of the Office of the Provincial Auditor for the year ended March 31, 2000 Public Accounts Volume 4 for the year ended March 31, 1999 Public Accounts Volume 1 for the year ended March 31, 2000 Public Accounts Volume 2 for the year ended March 31, 2000 Public Accounts Volume 3 for the year ended March 31, 2000 Public Accounts Volume 4 for the year ended March 31, 2000 Committee Membership: Your committee elected Mr. Dewar as the Vice Chairperson.

Substitutions received prior to commencement of meeting: Mr. Dewar for Mr. Maloway Officials Speaking on Record: Mr. Jon Singleton, Auditor General of Manitoba Reports Considered but not Adopted: Your committee commenced consideration of Public Accounts Volume 4 for the year ended March 31, 2000, but did not adopt the report.

Reports Considered and Adopted: Your committee considered: Provincial Auditor's Report on Value-for Money Audits for the period ended June 2000 Provincial Auditor's Report on the Operations of the Office of the Provincial Auditor for the year ended March 31, 2000 Public Accounts Volume 4 for the year ended March 31, 1999 Public Accounts Volume 1 for the year ended March 31, 2000 Public Accounts Volume 2 for the year ended March 31, 2000 Public Accounts Volume 3 for the year ended March 31, 2000 and has adopted the same as presented. Mr. Helwer: Mr.

Speaker, I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Southdale (Mr. Reimer), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to.

1862 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May28 , 2002 MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Forest Fire (Powell) Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister of Transportation and Government Services): I have a statement, Mr. Speaker. As Minister responsible for Emergency Measures, I rise today to provide an update on a serious fire that is threatening the community of Powell in the constituency of the honourable Member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). Mr. Speaker, on the afternoon of May 27, contact was made by Manitoba Emergency Measures to report a fire that started in the late hours of May 26 , between Barrows and Red Deer Lake.

The fire, which is still under investigation to determine its cause, has resulted in the evacuation of 25 residents from Powell to the nearby community of Barrows. At the present time the fire is not under control and a change in conditions could threaten Barrows. Contingency plans are in place to relocate the residents of Barrows, as well as the people of Powell who are presently accommodated in Barrows. * (13:35) Manitoba Emergency Measures Organ ization is leading a co-ordinated response by the provincial government.

Also involved is the Office of the Fire Commissioner, the Department of Conservation, Communications Services Manitoba, the Department of Family Services and Housing and the Department of Aboriginal and Northern Affairs. We are taking whatever steps are possible to help the residents of Powell and Barrows during what is obviously a very difficult period and will continue working to protect these communities. Mr. Speaker, I am sure I speak for all members of the House in expressing our concern to the people who have been affected by this event and also to those who are working very diligently to contain this fire.

Mr. Harry Eons (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the statement the minister has provided and certainly hope on behalf of this side of the House, along with all members in the House that the fire will soon be contained. It is on occasions like this that we do realize the combination of a number of agencies brought together by Emergency Measures organizations do provide the kind of support our citizens have come to expect and deserve from government. I wish to take this occasion to express my appreciation, the appreciation of all of us, to those on the front lines fighting a fire.

We just have dealt in this Chamber with the matter concerning firefighters. It is a reminder to the Government that, in many instances, we have situations in rural Manitoba which expose a whole host of people to fires and some very toxic conditions that could have some long-term effects. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I ask for leave to speak on the minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? Some Honourable Members: No. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been denied. Climate Change/Kyoto Protocol Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): I have a statement to make to the Legislature.

Mr. Speaker, I am pleased today to report back to members and all Manitobans on the progress made last week at national discussions that I co-chaired on May 21 , in Charlottetown, on climate change and the Kyoto Protocol. As all members know, we are facing serious risks of a warming climate and increased variability in our weather. Not even the President of the United States or the Premier of Alberta argues with the serious problems we face from climate change. Here in Manitoba we are already seeing the impacts of a warmer climate in the North as our winter roads are less viable due to early thaw.

Studies are showing ill effects in our polar bear population as they are going hungry due to a lack of ice available for hunting in Hudson Bay. We also know that an

May28, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1863 increased risk of drought and more severe summ er storms may threaten our already stressed agricultural economy. Manitobans spoke out clearly last year when our Climate Change Task Force held public meetings on these matters. Our citizens spoke out in favour of strong local action in support of global efforts that are needed to reduce our air pollution and slow the increasing effects of global warming.

Consistent with the recommendation of the task force, Manitoba continues to play a constructive role by encouraging action in Canada that will allow our participation in the Kyoto Protocol and bring rewards through clean energy credits to our economy. Manitoba has a rich endowment of clean and renewable energy that will continue to increase in value in North American markets as governments move toward reducing harmful air pollution that results from use of coal and oil. The Premier (Mr.

Doer) has clearly stated Manitoba's approach to these national discussions, and I took our clean energy strategy to our national meetings. Manitoba proposes a national strategy based upon the full cost of energy options that supports Manitoba in hydro electric and wind power generation and transmission infrastructure, ethanol production, research and development of hydro energy, carbon sinks and on-farm greenhouse gas management techniques.

The recently released federal discussion paper on climate change acknowledges the important role the Manitoba clean energy strategy can plan in the national effort, and we will be pursuing this plan with Ottawa and our colleagues in neighbouring provinces. * (13:40) I advised our national colleagues last week that any national climate change plan must provide incentives for truly clean and renewable energy and not penalize clean energy provinces like Manitoba by providing even more federal incentives for fossil fuel development in Alberta.

For Manitoba such a national energy could amount to billions of dollars in new investment providing employment and a legacy of clean energy to power our children's and our grandchildren's future in this province. I am also pleased that, with the exception of Alberta, all other governments in Canada have agreed to continue our national process of consultation and co-operatively work to determine the most beneficial path for Canada to implement the Kyoto Protocol. Manitoba has been very active in this national capacity and intends to continue this work.

I am also hopeful that, through an ongoing dialogue with Alberta, we can find common ground for regional co-operation such as is in place with research on impacts and adaptation. A national consultative effort on the federal Kyoto discussion paper will hold meetings in Winnipeg on June 19, and I encourage all interested citizens to participate. Information is available through my department's Web site. Thank you. Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the statement from the minister.

Obviously the national meeting of ministers that recently occurred is a significant turning point in how Canada may respond to the Kyoto Protocol. The one thing that I would caution, however, in terms of Manitoba's response is that, while we do have a large and significant supply and future possibility of hydro-electric development, we need to remember that all of these responses to climate change need, first of all, to be based on environmental needs and environmental protection.

Secondly, they need to be tied to a strong business plan that then allows the affected jurisdiction to truly deal in a businesslike and appropriate manner in both the protection of the environment and the sustainability of the economy. In questioning the Premier (Mr. Doer) of this province, he has not yet been able to indicate to us any solid sales for future hydro electric development. Until the Province can demonstrate that it indeed has a market for hydro-electric development, I am not so sure that the theory of "if we build it they will come" will necessarily reap rewards for this province. [interjection]

1864 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May28, 2002 Mr. Speaker, I hear some back-pedalling across the way. I am providing the Government the opportunity to respond positively and to support their own initiative which says that Manitoba has a significant role to play in response to climate change initiatives; but it cannot be done without an appropriate business plan, and as yet we have not seen that from the current Government. Frankly, if it is not based on a practical business plan-I can give an example from the minister's own statement where he references ethanol production.

If he is truly worried about environmental protection and does a full environmental assessment, ethanol production can reduce some of the emissions from automobiles. But the amount of diesel fuel and the amount of subsidy that may be required to support the agricultural initiative has to be balanced out against the opportunity for the saving and the long-term opportunity that is associated with it. * (1 3:45 ) So, Mr. Speaker, on this side of the House I want to assure you and everyone in the public that climate change is important.

Climate change is here and now and we need to be able to deal with it, but we need also to see responses from the Government that have a positive business aspect to them so that our economy and our climate can both benefit. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to speak to the minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? An Honourable Member: No. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been denied. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I table the Report and Recommendations of the Judicial Compensation Committee, 2002.

INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bi11 30- The Architects Amendment Act Hon. Becky Barrett (Minister of Labour and Immigration): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines (Ms. Mihychuk), that leave be given to introduce Bill 30, The Architects Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les architectes, and that the same be now received and read a first time. Motion presented. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, Bill 30 introduces amendments that will update the regulation of the practice of architecture and ensure the effective enforcement of its provisions. Motion agreed to. Introduction of Guests Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I would like to draw the attention of all honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from Prairie View School 18 Grades 7 to 9 students under the direction of Mrs. Geraldine Rempel.

This school is located in the constit uency of the honourable Member for Morris (Mr. Pitura). Also in the public gallery we have from the General Wolfe School 75 Grades 7 to 9 students under the direction of Ms. Frances Davies. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines (Ms. Mihychuk). Also in the public gallery we have from Warren Collegiate 46 Grade 11 students under the direction of Mr. Jake Wiebe and Mr. John Smith. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enos).

On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Manitoba Medical Association Job Action-Contingency Plan Mr. Mervin Tweed (furtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, yesterday this side of the House pointed out that the Government was not negotiating with doctors until Friday of this week, the eleventh hour in negotiations, and that the minister, later yesterday, called a hastily called meeting to meet with the doctors this

May28, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1865 morning. Less than 24 hours ago the minister stated he was unaware of any contingency plans should the doctors withdraw services on June 1. My question for the minister is: Can he advise Manitobans today if he is still unaware of any contingency plan in light of the doctors withdrawing services? * (13:50) Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated on many occasions in the media over the past week to 10 days, there are contingency plans in place.

The reference the member made with respect to the comments were part of a larger context with respect to dealing with the whole issue of contingencies. I just want to quote from the Brandon RHA chief of staff who said, and I quote: It would probably be fair to say that if there is a major withdrawal of services along the lines the MMA is seeking and the physicians appear to be supporting it may well be that any contingency plan would not necessarily guarantee complete patient safety. The point is and the point I was making yesterday is that it is unlike the nurses' situation.

In Doctor Campbell's letter that he initially provided, publicly and otherwise, there was reference to life and limb and there was absence of essential services. Mr. Tweed: Mr. Speaker, it was the minister's own words that stated he was unaware of any contingency plan. I ask the minister if he now has a plan, would he be prepared to share it with the House? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, we have covered and are looking at every possible contingency that may occur as a result of any labour dispute. Mr.

Tweed: Obviously the contingency plan, like the meeting yesterday with the doctors, was in his head at the time and obviously he is unaware of it today. My question is: Has the numster already struck a deal and he is waiting and putting people and patients of Manitoba in jeopardy so he can come in at the eleventh hour on his white horse and solve the situation? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, just to correct the misinformation put on the record by the Member for Turtle Mountain, we met with the MMA last Thursday. We provided them with written documentation requiring response, which oc curred yesterday.

After the response received in writing from the MMA yesterday, we set up another negotiating meeting for today, and there will be another negotiating meeting tomorrow with respect to the MMA. Mr. Speaker, as I indicated earlier, there are no essential services with respect to doctors as a result of any legislation brought in previously. We are discussing arbitration with the MMA. The No. 1 priority for the Government and, I know, for the doctors is ensuring patient safety. Nursing Profession Full-Time Employment Opportunities Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, accordingly to a May 2002 letter from the WRHA to nurses, they indicated that only 10 of 24 jobs they offered to new grads were full time jobs. I would like to ask the Minister of Health: Can he explain why he failed to keep his election promise to offer nurses, and I quote: job security and full-time work, especially after he told a radio host on April 4, part of better managing is getting less people part time and more people full time? There is no question about that. Well, why has he not managed better and offered more new grads full-time work? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, the member goes back to an old trusted and true question the members ask over and over again with respect to this issue. I might add that it was members opposite who complained about the nurses' arrangement. We were able to conclude a collective agreement with the nurses. Within the context of that collective agreement is a joint council that looks at the issues and works with the nurses, something members opposite perhaps could take a page from in terms of their dealings in dealing with the full-time, part-time issue specifically.

1866 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May28, 2002 Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I would like to table something for the Minister of Health to remind him that in the election they promised Today's NDP will offer nurses job security and full-time work. It is their own news release from the election. I would like to ask the Minister of Health if he can explain why he failed to keep that promise to hire more full-time nurses when his Premier (Mr.

Doer) said during the election that the lack of full-time work was the problem at the heart of the nursing shortage, a shortage which, by the way, has doubled under this NDP government. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, as I have said on many occasions in this House, I do not think members on this side of the House have to take lessons in labour relations concerning nurses from members opposite, whose record of dealing with nurses was simply awful. They cancelled the diploma program, nurses were laid off at the institutions.

During negotiations with the nurses, 600 nurses had to come down to this Chamber to try to demand a settlement. We have moved, bringing back the diploma program that they opposed. We provided more jobs for nurses across the system than any other time in history, and they opposed that. We have a collective agreement. For the first time in years, the nurses feel secure. I do not know if they are against it or for it. They have gone back and forth. It all depends what time of the day it is, I guess. * (13:55) Mrs. Driedger: Mr.

Speaker, well, I would like to ask this Minister of Health if he expects us to believe that hiring 10 grads only from a class of 57 is his solution to the problem of hiring full time nurses in Manitoba to solve the problem. Is 10 nurses his answer? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, the last time that I looked at statistics with respect to the hiring of nurses was a report done that I said had indicated the vast majority of nurses were offered positions. I will table that report later on, which was provided. Now, with respect to nurses, let us contrast- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne 41 7: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. Mr. Speaker, the question was simply: Is the minister satisfied with 10 new positions? Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order. I believe the member had a very long

preamble which was inaccurate with respect to the question she placed. I was attempting to clarify the position vis-a-vis the member's usual record of inaccuracies in terms of statements. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, I would like to take this opportunity to remind all honourable ministers Beauchesne 417: Answers to questions should deal with the matter raised. *** Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, to conclude his comments. Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, I fail to understand how members opposite, who slashed the number of nurses graduating and opposed- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Laurendeau: Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne 417, I do believe you have already ruled on it once. I do not believe I have to read it on the record, but provoking debate, the honourable

May28, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1867 minister should not be standing up and talking about slashing. We have seen the slashing. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, on the same point or order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I was only pointing out that we have doubled the number of nurses in education in Manitoba, in this province, as a result of policies that we have put in place. Mr. Speaker: On the same point of order? The honourable Member for Turtle Mountain, on the same point of order. * (14:00) Mr. Mervin Tweed (fu rtle Mountain): Yes, Mr. Speaker.

I just want to clarify for the Minister of Health that this is the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority's document, dated May 2000, that states-{interjectio n} 2002-they have offered 10 full-time positions to graduating nurses. The minister cannot deny those numbers. They are his own board's numbers. So, if he would speak to the numbers, then we could have some clarity. Mr. Speaker: I have already recognized the honourable Minister of Health once on a point of order.

Before I recognize any other member, I would just like to remind all honourable members before making the ruling: All honour able members, when rising on a point of order, it is to point out to the Speaker a breach of a rule or the departure of a practice of the House. Points of order are not to be used for debate. On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne 41 7 states: Answers to questions should be brief as possible, deal with the matter raised, and to not provoke debate.

I would ask the co-operation of the honourable minister, please. *** Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The graduating classes of nurses are going to have the opportunity for 300 full-time positions across the province of Manitoba that are open for nurses. They are open because we have not slashed and cut nurses' positions as occurred during the 19 90s, and the nurses that we are graduating have opportunities to apply for those positions. Mr. Speaker: Order.

Before recognizing the honourable Member for River East, I would just like to remind all the guests in the public gallery there is to be no participation whatsoever from the guests that are in the public gallery. I would ask for your full co-operation, please. Nursing Profession Full-time Employment Opportunities Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): Mr. Speaker, during the last election campaign, Today's NDP stated, and I quote: In order to rescue health care, we need to recruit full-time nurses for Manitoba hospitals.

Today's NDP will immediately implement our nurses first program, and will begin to hire permanent full-time nurses to fulfil our pledge to end hallway medicine within six months. Mr. Speaker, that was the leader of Today's NDP. Today we see the nursing shortage has doubled. Out of the 57 graduates that are graduating from the nursing program, 10 have been offered full-time positions. Is that fulfilment of this election promise two and a half years later? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, I will attempt to answer above the shouts of the Member for Springfield (Mr.

Schuler), who, I do not think, is interested in any answers. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Chomiak: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As members opposite know and as the member referenced in her question, during the period of Conservative rule so many nurses lost their jobs and the hallway situation was so bad that we said when we would come into office, as the member indicated in her

preamble, that we would put in place programs. We put in place the Nursing Worklife Task Force. We made a number of

1868 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May28, 2002 recommendations. We put LPNs back into acute care facilities, something the members opposite had slashed. We increased the number of full time jobs. There are 300 full-time jobs. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker, Manitobans want answers, not arrogance, from their Minister of Health. Mr. Speaker, can the Minister of Health explain to Manitobans why doubling the nursing shortage in Manitoba and hiring only 10 full time nurses, how that squares with their election promises and their election commitments? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, RHAs are reporting 600 more perman ent nursing positions in 2001 than 2000. That reflects an expansion of programming, an expansion of health care, an opening of beds and all of the things that deal with the dark ages of the 199 0s that occurred when the members slashed and cut. As the president of the Manitoba Medical Association said, the dark ages of the 199 0s. Mrs. Mitchelson: Can the minister explain to Manitobans rather than the rhetoric and the ranting and the raving that he does in his answers, can he explain to Manitobans what is happening- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

Mrs. Mitchelson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister of Health explain to Manitobans what is happening to the 4 7 nurses that have not been offered full-time jobs, and why only 10 nurses out of the graduating class of 57 have been offered full-time jobs right here in Manitoba under his watch? Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, in the last report of the graduating class that I have by the Manitoba Nursing Research Institute, of the 2001 graduates in May, 86 percent were offered positions at the time of the survey. Now, Mr. Speaker, as members opposite know- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Charleswood, on a point of order. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): The minister may want to clarify whether the graduating class was in May or March. I do not believe there was one in May. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Minister of Health, on the same point of order. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I suggest that members opposite do not have a point of order. It is not even a dispute over the facts.

In fact, the members have gotten statements so inaccurate, so wrong, even as recently as yesterday the member is quoted in the Canadian Press as not being sure whether or not there was a doctors' strike or when she was re-elected or when she was elected. Mr. Speaker: Order. Before making a ruling, I would like to once again remind all honourable members a point of order is to be raised to draw to the attention of the Speaker of a breaking of the rule or a breach of a rule or breaking from tradition of the House and not to be used for debates. So the honourable member does not have a point of order. *** Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, to conclude his comments. Mr. Chomiak: As I indicated, 86 percent were offered positions. Only one graduate left Manitoba to work in another province. The remaining four graduates could not identify a location. This was a study undertaken by the Manitoba Nursing Research Institute of May 2001 nurses. It was done in a review. Eighty-six percent of those nurses were offered positions in Manitoba and, as I indicated, there are 300 full time positions. That is why we set up a task force to work with the nurses to identify positions.

May28, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1869 Manitoba Hydro Profits Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Mr. Speaker, on the one hand, we have the Minister of Finance stripping $288 million from Manitoba Hydro to cover his operating deficits. On the other hand, we have the Premier (Mr. Doer) of the province making statements that Hydro will have to invest $8 billion to reap the rewards should the Kyoto agreement be signed.

I would like to ask the Minister of Finance if he forgot to inform the Premier that Hydro is already out of cash and, in fact, will have to borrow money to pay the $150 million dividend, let alone have any cash to make investments. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): I would like to thank the Member for Fort Whyte for giving the member from Seven Oaks a break here so we can answer the question. Once again, between the years 1997 and 2001, the actual profits of Manitoba Hydro were $734 million, $371 million more than forecast.

It is out of those excess profits that we will have a dividend for the people of Manitoba as originally envisioned when we built the Limestone project. Capital Requirements Mr. John Loewen (Fort Whyte): Those profits have already been spent on capital expenditures. I would like to ask the minister why he is completely ignoring the advice he has received from the Business Council of Manitoba who has told him he should only take dividends as long as strict attention is paid to current and future capital requirements. Why is he totally ignoring that advice? Hon.

Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): First of all, I would like to thank the member from Fort Whyte for confirming the fact that the Business Council of Manitoba agrees in principle with the notion of having a dividend for Manitoba Hydro for the people of Manitoba. Their policy is certainly more enlightened than the policy of the members opposite. Of course, we will continue to do due diligence to make sure Manitoba is one of the best-run corporations in Manitoba. Mr. Loewen: Do I have to remind the minister that he did all this without even consulting management? * (1 4:10 ) Public Utilities Board Review Mr.

John Loewen (Fort Whyte): My supplementary to the minister is simply this: Given that his own Finance Department, on May 10, issued an economic update which indicated that Hydro's export sales for January and February were down 41 percent from the previous year, a 41% decline in export sales, will the minister review that policy he has made, for which he has no legislative authority to take the $150 million?

Will he review that policy, take it to the Public Utilities Board, so we can have a full public scrutiny to determine what effects stripping Manitoba Hydro of $288 million will have on the ratepayers of this province? Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker, to be absolutely clear, for the record, in the year 2001, Manitoba Hydro forecast profits of $116 million. The actual profits were $270 million; $270 million versus $116 million.

Out of those excess profits we are going to take a dividend of $150 million, certainly a responsible policy at a time when record profits are being made through export sales because we had the foresight to build the Hydro project when we were last in government. Manitoba Hydro Export Sales Mrs. Bonnie Mitchelson (River East): The Minister of Finance has admitted that he did not consult with the management of Manitoba Hydro prior to demanding that they turn over $288 million from Manitoba Hydro coffers to pay for the Doer governme nt's spending spree and operating deficits.

My question for the Minister of Finance is: Was he aware that Manitoba Hydro's export sales for January and February of this year were down 41 percent from the previous year before he decided to strip Manitoba Hydro of $288 million?

1870 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May28, 2002 Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister charged with the administration of The Manitoba Hydro Act): Mr. Speaker, there are several inaccurate statements made by the member opposite. First of all, the per capita expenditure in Manitoba is the third lowest in the country, so there is no excess spending going on here. Spending is going towards priorities. As I indicated to the Member for Fort Whyte (Mr. Loewen), the $15 0 million is out of last year's profits which were more than double than was forecast. Mrs.

Mitchelson: Can the Minister of Hydro and the Minister of Finance advise Manitobans what effect a dramatic reduction in the export sales will have on electricity rates in Manitoba? Mr. Selinger: Mr. Speaker, one of the things you must know is that Manitoba Hydro, since we have come into office, has put additional capacity in place to support firm Hydro sales into the American market. This spring, we will have two gas turbines come online in Brandon, Manitoba, which will provide significant additional capacity for Manitoba Hydro.

In addition, we have converted the coal plant in Selkirk, Manitoba, to a gas combustion plant, as well. This plant will not only allow Manitoba Hydro to meet its Kyoto commitments but will provide additional capacity for Manitoba Hydro to meet export sales. Mrs. Mitchelson: Well- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable Member for River East has the floor. Mrs. Mitchelson: Thanks very much, Mr. Speaker. Since the Minister of Finance boasts all these wonderful things, can he guarantee Manitobans that their hydro rates will not go up? Mr.

Selinger: First of all, I am glad the Member for River East has acknowledged that we have, with Manitoba Hydro's recommendations, put additional capacity in place. What we have said is that Manitoba Hydro rates wiii remain the lowest in North America, and we stand by that commitment. Teachers Retirement Allowances Fund Maternity Leave Buyback Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my question to the Minister of Finance on a matter of fiscal and pension policy.

Presently, teachers who are continuing to be teachers, who had a maternity leave in the past, are able to buy back the contribution for their pension and to have a pension that fully reflects the time they were on maternity leave; but a teacher who retired early, who moved on to another job, who may be of the same age and in the same graduating class as one who can do this, is not able to do this because she is considered a retired teacher. I would ask the Minister of Finance when he is going to make the changes that are needed to provide equity under these conditions to all teachers. Hon.

Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Well, first of all, the member from River Heights I think has just publicly acknowledged that it was this Government that allowed teachers who are presently practising as teachers in Manitoba to buy back time that they had while they were on maternity leave, which will give them stronger pensions. I think that was an ap propriate policy. The issue of whether somebody who has left the teaching profession has the right to buy back that time, I will take under advisement and see what the status of that situation is. Mr.

Gerrard: My supplementary to the Minister of Finance is: I understand that some of the roadblocks to doing this, both the changes in federal legislation and looking at what is possible- Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Beauchesne 417 :

Preambles to questions should be brief, and supplementary questions should require no

preamble.

May28, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1871 Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for River Heights, on the same point of order. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, I was just getting to the question. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official-[interjection] Order. On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, he does have a point of order. Beauchesne Citation 409(2) advises that a supplementary question should not require a

preamble. I would ask the honourable member to please put his question. *** Mr. Gerrard: My supplementary to the Minister of Finance. I ask that this matter be given prompt attention and that the Minister of Finance provide a report as soon as possible, together with the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell). Mr. Selinger: I would like to thank the member from St. Norbert for providing us with leader ship on how the rules should be interpreted in the House. As I indicated earlier, I will take the matter under advisement.

I do want to re-emphasize that within the first few years of us coming into Government, we changed the legislation to allow teachers who are practising teachers to buy back time for time that they spent on maternity leave in order to have a more adequate pension. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Point of Order Mr. Laurendeau: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. The minister knows all too well once he has taken a question under advisement there is no need to put an answer after it. Mr.

Speaker: On the point of order raised, a supplementary question should be asked to clarify from the first question. If the honourable member has taken the question under advisement, there is no supplementary question to that question, except-{interjection] Order.

To clarify for all members, when a question is asked and a member, a minister takes it under advisement, the only way a sup plementary question can be asked is to clarify part of the question that was asked that the minister had taken under advisement. [interjection] * (14:20) On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, when a minister takes a question under advisement, the only way a question can be asked is if the member is seeking information from the minister and it could be a different question to seek different information. That is what the member was doing. *** Mr.

Speaker: The honourable Minister of Finance, have you concluded your comment? Okay. Hydro Plant (Selkirk) Conversion Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, my second supplementary on the fiscal management by the Minister of Finance. I would ask the Minister of Finance to tell this Legislature whether he has communicated at all with his colleague, who has just negotiated on the Kyoto, his plans to very considerably increase the burning of fossil fuels by revving up the plants in Brandon and Selkirk and creating greenhouse gases. Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Mr.

Speaker, I do not pretend to be an expert on the rules, but that did seem like a new question. Nonetheless, I will attempt to answer it. When you convert a coal plant to gas, you significantly reduce the amount of noxious emissions in the environment. That is what we have done at Selkirk. These plants are backup, if and when needed, to provide cleaner sources of energy to the American marketplace.

1872 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May28, 2002 North American Indigenous Games Volunteer Recruitment Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): My question is to the Minister of Culture, Heritage, Tourism and Sport. It concerns the North American- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Struthers: It concerns the North American Indigenous Games. There has been concern expressed in the media a short time ago about whether or not the North American Indigenous Games would meet its volunteer targets. Can the minister tell us how the recruitment is going for these games? Hon.

Ron Lemieux (Minister responsible for Sport): I thank the Member for Dauphin-Roblin for the question. This is really an important question, Mr. Speaker, because the North American Indigenous Games that are going to be held here this summ er are going to be the largest North American Indigenous Games ever held in its history; twice the size of any other previous games. Mr. Speaker, the question with regard to the volunteers: there are going to be over 6500 athletes, volunteers and families going to be attending this. We need close to about 4500 volunteers. We have over 4000 right now.

As the date gets closer, certainly more and more volunteers will be coming on board. So I would like to say that not only this Government and people on this side of the House, I am sure, are wanting these games to be most successful. I know members opposite, who worked very hard on the Pan American Games to make them successful, would wish that more volunteers come forward. We need as many volunteers as possible to make these the most successful games, and, once again, show that Manitoba is the elite when holding any kind of games in Canada. Online Crime Cyber Tip Line Mrs. Joy Smith (Fort Garry): Mr.

Speaker, in a press release last May the Minister of Justice announced, and I quote from the minister's release: "New cyber tip line to protect children on the Internet." It has now been 371 days since the Minister of Justice made his announcement, and again I quote: He wants to bridge the gap between those who wish to report online crimes and the law enforcement agencies that require the information. Can the minister provide to Manitobans the phone number or Internet address for his cyber tip line promised 371 days ago? Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, I am very proud of the work that is unfolding with the cyber tip line. The member opposite should know, and I look forward to getting into this in more detail in Estimates, the work that has taken place to date and the targeted date for the official launch of this. This is work that has been proudly done as a result of a partnership effort led by Child Find Manitoba, as well as the Winnipeg Police Service, the RCMP, the telecommunications policy branch in Ottawa, as well as MTS, Prosecutions, Education and Training, Beyond Borders, representatives from the University of Manitoba.

This is expected to be a pilot for a federal-a national cyber tip line, and I am glad we are able to provide that leadership, in partnership with these other agencies. Mrs. Smith: On a new question, Mr. Speaker. In the minister's press release he referred to the cyber tip line as, and again I quote the minister's release: An important public safety issue. Can the minister provide to this House how many child pornography and Internet luring instances have been reported through this cyber tip line since his announcement 371 days ago? Mr. Mackintosh: Unfortunately, the member is wrong in her question.

The announcement made last May was to establish the Children Online Protection Committee, which had, as its first piece of work, the establishment of a cyber tip line. Members opposite know that full well. Mr. Speaker, I just remind members opposite that we are not talking about some

May 28, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1873 rinky-dinky little phone line here like their so called gang hotline that they did not even answer for up to five months at a time. This is serious work. We intend to provide a new way for children to be protected, not like their cold line. Mr. Speaker: Order.

Before recognizing the honourable Member for Fort Garry who is up on a supplementary or a question, I would like to remind all honourable members, once you state that you are up on a new question, please give me the opportunity to respond back so that it is clear to all the members of the House that it is a new question. Mrs. Smith: On a new question. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Garry, on a new question. Mrs. Smith: Mr.

Speaker, in the minister's press release 371 days ago, he stated that his Government, and I quote: can do more at the provincial level to prevent the exploitation of children through the Internet. Can the minister advise how many successful criminal prosecutions of child pornographers and those who lure children on the Internet have occurred as a direct result of his cyber line announced 371 days ago? Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, I guess if you do not have the facts to rely on you simply just come up with something, because that is what the question has in its

preamble. Last May we were very proud to announce the Children Online Protection Committee, and I think- Point of Order Mr. Speaker: The honourable Official Opposition House Leader, on a point of order. Mr. Marcel Laurendeau (Official Opposition House Leader): Mr. Speaker, Beauchesne 41 7: Answers to questions should be as brief as possible, deal with the matter raised and not provoke debate. It was clear that the member was asking for the phone number. Seven numbers. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Government House Leader, on the same point of order. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr.

Speaker, I was simply responding to the question that was raised. There was false information in the question. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Official Opposition House Leader, the honourable minister had not ·stated enough words for me to determine if he was responding to the question and using the words to respond to the question or if he was provoking debate or avoiding the question. *** Mr. Speaker: So the honourable Attorney General, to conclude your answer. Mr. Mackintosh: Yes, Mr. Speaker. Last May we announced the Children Online Protection Committee partnership initiative.

It is unfor tunate the members opposite are trying to politicize a body comprised of representatives that have a real stake and are trying to make a difference in Manitoba and across this country, including Beyond Borders and Child Find. The committee is beyond reproach. As the members opposite also know, and it has been reported in Maclean's just a couple of weeks ago about some of the challenges in establishing the child cyber tip line, members opposite should also know that this is an online reporting mechanism. It is an Internet site that will be established and will be announced in the coming weeks.

I should also say that the Online Protection Committee was asked as a matter of priority to do the partnership work for cyber tip line, and we gave them the funding to do that and we are very close, Mr. Speaker, to the unveiling of that wonderful partnership initiative. Mrs. Smith: Mr. Speaker, on a new question. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Fort Garry, on a new question. * (14:30) Mrs.

Smith: It has now been 371 days since the Minister of Justice made his announcement, and again I quote and remind the members opposite the minister wanted to bridge the gap between those who wished to report online crimes and the law enforcement agencies that require the information.

1874 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 2002 My question to the minister: When will this line be up and running? It has already been 371 days. Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, when the cyber tip line is unveiled, it will not be a line that is not answered for up to five months at a time, as the members opposite put in place for gangs in this province. The Children Online Protection Committee has been working since its establishment last May to establish a Canadian first. What the member unfortunately is doing is reflecting on the hard work, particularly of Child Find Manitoba, in putting this line in place.

I regret that because the work has been fantastic, the partnership has been unbelievable. We are not only providing a cyber tip line for Manitobans, but it is expected that this will be a national tip line, something that I think, quite frankly, is due Canadian children. Feed Grain and Barley Interprovincial Trade Barriers Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, farmers in this province have, over the last two weeks, been hit with a third major impact. The Winnipeg Commodity Exchange has de-listed the 2003 contract for feed wheat and barley.

The Alberta government is looking at restricting fusarium-infected feed and seed grain shipments from Manitoba unless the grain can be certified as fusarium free. Can the Minister of Agriculture outline what discussions her Government has had with the Alberta government about this negative trade action? Hon. Rosano Wowchuk (Minister of Agriculture and Food): Mr.

Speaker, I can tell the member that I have had discussions with the Commodity Exchange on this decision that they have had to remove this offering, but we have also had discussion with the Alberta government to try to get information where they are going on this issue. It is a very serious issue because if we start to put up borders between provinces to trade, then that sends a real signal to the U.S. that, when we argue with them, they should not be putting up borders. Mr. Speaker, this is quite serious.

We also know that there is fusarium in Alberta right now, and we are very concerned that Alberta is taking this action to try to stop the flow of barley from Manitoba into Alberta. Yes, we are working very closely with them, but we also want to see the results of the study that they are doing with this right now as well. Mr. Jack Penner: Mr.

Speaker, I appreciate the minister's answer, but I would like the minister to tell this House what specific action she is contemplating on taking in order to bring this issue to the attention of the authorities that are in place here to ensure that Manitoba's feed grain will in fact be in such condition that it is marketable in western Canada and indeed to the livestock herd in this province. Ms. Wowchuk: Mr. Speaker, the issue of livestock grain and movement of livestock grain out of this province into Alberta is very important.

What we are doing is awaiting the outcomes of the study that the Alberta group is taking on right now. They have not put in place the barriers yet. They are talking about taking a move that would be very protectionist on the part of the Alberta government. We want to await that study to see what steps they are going to be taking, but we are very concerned about it and we want to ensure that feed grains continue to be a viable commodity in this province and can reach the markets where they are needed. Mr. Jack Penner: On a new question. Mr. Speaker: The honourable Member for Emerson, on a new question. Mr.

Jack Penner: The minister fully realizes the impact of American com coming into this province and indeed into western Canada. There are no restrictions whatsoever on American feed grains coming into Canada. There are, however, now restrictions by provincial governments being put into place that will affect the movement of Canadian grain to Canadian markets.

Will this minister tell this House what action she will be taking to ensure those limitations will not be put in place and that she will talk to the Alberta government and indeed her Canadian counterparts, which she said she would have better relationships with than the previous

May28, 2002 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 187 5 government, to ensure we will have a free market system in this province? Ms. Wowchuk: I guess the member was not listening to the last two answers I gave him. I said that this was very serious. I said we have been in contact with the Alberta government and we have raised the issue that we do not want to see trade barriers between provinces because that sends a very bad signal to other countries that we trade with.

We want to ensure this is not being used as a trade barrier and look at scientific evidence to see what they are talking about, because we do not believe that, by feeding this grain through livestock, this is an opportunity to spread fusarium. We want the Alberta government to recognize that they do have fusarium in their own province right now, and we believe this is being used, this study is being done or this plan of action is being taken so that Alberta grains would be going to Alberta feed cattle, not grains from other provinces. Mr. Speaker: The time for Oral Questions has expired.

MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Carman Grandstand Fire Mr. Denis Rocan (Carman): Only a few days have passed since I rose in this House to discuss the tragic destruction of the 99-year-old Ryall Hotel in Carman by fire. Sadly, another Carman landmark, its beloved grandstand, has experienced the same fate. When a massive fire broke out at the Carman fairgrounds early Monday morning, the 3000-seat, 83-year-old grandstand was completely destroyed. The blaze spread to the nearby free stage, the dining hall and the pari mutuel betting booths. Damage is estimated at $1 million.

The cause of the fire is being investigated by the RCMP and the Fire Commissioner's office. The grandstand was designated a municipal heritage site in 199 2. The application for designation stated that it was the last standing wooden grandstand of its kind. The events held at the grandstand were varied, everything from tractor pulls to harness racing to the opening ceremonies of the town's fair. The fairgrounds are the anticipated home of the Carman Country Fair which is held July 11 to 13, but the grandstand will have to be temporarily replaced by portable bleachers.

For those who attend this event annually it will not be the same. * (14:4 0) Mr. Speaker, I would like to offer my condolences to all those who are feeling the loss of the Carman grandstand and surrounding structures. I especially want to mention the Dufferin Agricultural Society who owned this property and have put a lot of money and effort into fixing up the grandstand and associated facilities. I would also like, Mr.

Speaker, to recognize Ed Vandersluis, deputy chief of the Carman Dufferin volunteer fire department, and all the other firefighters who gave their best efforts in attempting to extinguish the fire. Finally, Mr. Speaker, I extend condolences to Carman mayor, Murray Rinn, and Reeve Bill Ross in the R.M. of Dufferin and all the residents of the Carman area as they are left to cope with this tragic loss. Mines Rescue Competition Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Fiin Flon): Mr. Speaker, last Saturday I was privileged to join the Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines (Ms. Mihychuk), the Minister of Labour and Immigration (Ms.

Barrett) and some of their staff at the 42nd annual Manitoba Provincial Mine Rescue Competition at the New Britannia Gold Mine in Snow Lake. We were very impressed with the professionalism of the underground mine rescue teams. We know that the mining sector has a billion-dollar impact on the province of Manitoba. Mine safety is important to this vital sector. Each year there is stiff competition among a number of Manitoba mine rescue teams. This year was no different.

The teams that competed this year were HBM&S, Ruttan Mine, Leaf Rapids; HBM&S, Flin Flon; AECL, Pinawa; Inco, Thompson; Tanco, Lac du Bonnet; and New Britannia Mine, Snow Lake. The winner of the competition was AECL. The winning team consisted of Dwayne Onagi, Glen Karklin, Richard Suski, Kevin Clarke,

18 76 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 2002 Dean Randell, Jason Martino, Terry Reimer and Shawn Keith. Congratulations. The runner-up team was HBM&S, Ruttan Mine, Leaf Rapids. The Ruttan team was also the winner last year at Creighton, Saskatchewan. It was especially significant that the Ruttan team won again because the members likely will only be together for a little while because the Ruttan Mine will close at the end of June, but what a fitting ending for Ruttan. Well done, Ruttan team.

The team consisted of Terry Hollett, Gerry Sullivan, Shawn Gale, Paul Rogers, Sean Fortin, Ron Sullivan and Bruce Gulliford. That evening the teams were honoured at a banquet at the town hall. The formal portion of the banquet was ably chaired by Mike Kelly, general manager of New Britannia. Mike was a most genial host. All participants at the banquet had an enjoyable evening. Thank you, Snow Lake, and New Britannia Mine, for your superb hospitality. As well, thank you all participants, organizers, volunteers and sponsors who have made the 42nd Mine Rescue Competition in Snow Lake such a success.

Agricultural Hall of Fame Mr. Jack Penner (Emerson): On April 18 , the Manitoba Agricultural Hall of Fame held their annual general meeting. It was here that the names of eight people to be inducted into the Hall of Fame this July were announced. I extend congratulations to Albert Chapman of Brandon, Elva Cochrane of Hamiota, Clare and Dorothy Geddes of Pilot Mound, Archie Londry of Rapid City, James McCutcheon of Carman, Albert Vielfaure of La Broquerie and the late Lome Parker of Ste. Agathe.

The Agricultural Hall of Fame was established in 19 76 to recognize those individuals who have made outstanding contributions to the betterment of agriculture and rural living in the province. This year's candidates have proven most deserving of this honour.

Some of their individual ac complishments include owning/operating the Chapman Museum; serving as a councillor and reeve, doing the tireless community work; introducing Charolais cattle into the province; showing cattle at the provincial exhibition for 68 consecutive years; pioneering the development of zero tillage nationally and internationally; serving as an MLA; and sitting on a variety of different provincial, national and international agricultural boards. Mr.

Speaker, it is individuals such as these who help maintain the prosperity of agriculture and rural lif e that continues to be the backbone of the provincial economy and helps to form a significant part of its heritage. The legacy these people have created will last in the hearts of Manitobans for years to come. Being a farmer myself, I find it encouraging that such organizations exist in our province to recognize members of the agricultural and rural communities for their accomplishments. I know first-hand how hard such individuals have to work, and they deserve every bit of recognition for it. Mr.

Speaker, on behalf of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, I congratulate the induc tees into the Manitoba Agricultural Hall of Fame for 2002, and wish them all the best in the future. Credit Unions Mr. Doug Martindale (Burrows): Mr. Speaker, I rise today to speak about the vital role that credit unions play in our province. Credit unions are committed to Manitobans and that commitment has translated into growth. At the end of 2001, there were 17 2 credit unions in Manitoba, up by two from the year before; 2001' s memberships grew by a very significant 22 000 members, bringing its total to 45 1 000.

Also, assets, loans, deposits and patronage dividends were all up. Some of these increases represent the highest increases in at least a decade. Credit unions are very important in 61 Manitoba communities since a credit union is the only financial institution available to consumers and businesses. Credit unions are also a great source of employment for Manitobans. The total system payroll in 2001 was $79.6 million, which is an increase by $7.5 million over 2000. Credit

May 28, 2002 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1877 unions are useful because members reap the rewards of membership. Last year hundreds of thousands of members shared in the profits of $26 million. I especially congratulate North Winnipeg Credit Union, which had an excellent year in 2001. Their membership was up by 13.2 percent, loans were up 14.8 percent, and assets increased by 12.9 percent. The board of directors declared a patronage refund of $60,000, subject to year end. Credit unions are a very important part of Manitoba's economic and social fabric. Their services benefit thousands of Manitobans.

In return the credit unions themselves benefit from Manitoba's strong economic growth and potential. Timothy Eaton Statue Mrs. Louise Dacquay (Seine River): I rise today to express how pleased we are that the renowned statue of Timothy Eaton will remain in Winnipeg. This 1100 kilogram statue was a gift from Eaton's employees to the company on its 50th anniversary in 1919. It remained on the main floor of the Portage A venue store until the store closed 80 years later. It currently resides outside the Eatons Polo Park store.

However, when Sears announced it would be closing this store it became evident that a new home would have to be found for the bronze likeness of Eaton. In April, descendants of Timothy Eaton announced the statue would be leaving Winnipeg for St. Mary's, Ontario, 200 kilometres southwest of Toronto. It was here and in the neighbouring town of Kirkton, Ontario, where Timothy Eaton opened his first two stores in 1860. However, an outcry of disappointed Manitobans caused members of the Eaton family to reconsider. They soon realized what a significant part of the province's heritage this statue holds.

Many of us think fondly of this landmark as a place to regroup after the shopping is done. Some even treat it as a lucky charm. Rubbing Timothy Eaton's boot is said to bring good luck. The statue's next anticipated home is the True North Entertainment Complex. Here it will form part of an Eaton's display designed to commemorate the almost century-old building soon to be replaced by this new recreational complex. Mr. Speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to thank the Eaton family and all those who contributed in keeping the Timothy Eaton statue in Winnipeg.

It is because of numerous efforts that a piece of our local heritage has been preserved for future generations. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, would you please call Bill l4. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bi11 14- The Public Schools Modernization Act (Public Schools Act Amended) Mr. Speaker: Resumed debate on second reading of Bill 14, The Public Schools Modernization Act (Public Schools Act Amended), standing in the name of the honourable Member for Minnedosa (Mr. Gilleshamm er).

Is it the will of the House ·for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Minnedosa? [Agreed] Any other speakers? No. Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs (Mr. Smith), that the House resolve into the Committee ofSupply. Motion agreed to. * (14:50) COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) CONSERVATION Mr. Chairperson (Harry Schellenberg): Good afternoon. Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This afternoon this

section of the Committee of Supply meeting in Room 254 will

18 78 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 2002 resume consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Conservation. We are on line 4. Conservation Programs (

f) Fisheries

(2) Fish Culture (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $661 ,300 on page 49 of the main Estimates book. When the committee last met, there had been agreement to skip ahead and ask questions on 4. Conservation Programs (

f) Fisheries

(4) Sport and Commercial Fishing Management. Is that still the will of the committee? Mr. Glen Cummings (Ste. Rose): I was asking the minister about any remedial action planned or already undertaken in Lake Dauphin or Lake of the Prairies or any other of the- Mr. Chairperson: Order. Is it the will of the committee to continue with 4. Conservation Programs (

f) Fisheries

(4) Sport and Commercial Fishing Management? Is it the will of the committee? [Agreed] Mr. Cummings: Mr. Chairman, I was interested in what plans the minister has or what actions may already be underway to do some remedial stocking in particularly the two lakes that have received all the attention, but I believe there are others. There are ongoing stocking programs, of course, that we asked abut earlier. So today I would appreciate it if he would indicate any particular action that he has undertaken in Lake of the Prairies or Lake Dauphin. Hon.

Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): In response to the member's question, I can indicate to him that both fisheries have suf ficient natural spawning stock to allow the walleye stock to recover and sustain good fishing without significant stocking. Research conducted by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans on Lake Dauphin concluded that major stocking programs on large multispecies lakes such as this provide few returns compared to production from natural spawning. That is the question that I asked myself on occasion.

The department's efforts have focussed on protecting spawning-size fish and the protection and the enhancement of spawning habitat to improve natural spawning success. Recently, Conservation provided Intermountain Sport Fishing Enhancement with $1 0,000 from the Fisheries Enhancement Initiative to purchase a generator for filling the Methley Beach walleye rearing ponds on Dauphin Lake and will be providing 200 000 fry, those of half inch, to stock the ponds for growing the fish to fingerling sizes, 3 to 4 inch, for release later this year.

On Lake of the Prairies, Conservation has been experimentally stocking walleye fry in streams in an attempt to create spawning runs and maybe having some success in the Shell River area. The department plans to stock 300 000 walleye fry in the Shell River again this spring. The excellent fishery on Lake of the Prairies has resulted from management efforts aimed at protecting spawning habitat and spawning-size fish, and that will continue to be our priority. * (15 :00) Mr. Cummings: It seems to me to be a rather tepid response to what was acknowledged, I think, by everybody.

It was some pretty dramatic increase in pressure on these lakes and to refer to Lake Dauphin as a multispecies lake is, I would suggest, a matter of degree of

interpretation because, when Lake Dauphin was not producing, the commercial fishermen were encouraged, and, if memory serves me right, they may have even been asked to, and received some reimbursement to take some of the jacks out of lake so that the pickerel population could be enhanced and that there would be a better opportunity for the lif e cycle of the pickerel fingerling. You know, people have an obvious preference for natural reproduction of fish stocks as opposed to stocking.

Unless I am quite mistaken, and I guess I reference a letter that the minister put in the newspapers in that region when he referred to the alleged overfishing. Alleged overfishing, well, frankly, it borders on being an insulting comment when you consider the amount of fish that was taken out of there. I think it would be without any particular stretching of imagination to know that the number of fish taken out of Lake Dauphin exceeded the sustainable limits by a considerable amount. The department itself would ac knowledge that the limits had been reached long before.

When I say the department, I am talking about reports that people in the community have brought forward after discussions with knowledgeable people about what is the

May28, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1879 productive capacity or what is the su�tainable capacity of the lake and then calculatmg how much has actually been taken out. This is not so much a shot at the department as it is, as the minister full well knows, a flash point which I would suggest he would be very well advised to increase some resources to helping with a restocking.

I again believe there was published in the Dauphin Herald comments from myself which I believe to be true and were supported by local sports fishing enthusiasts t�at, yes, the fishing may be good in. 2002, fishmg might not even be too bad m 2003, but eventually the year classes that have been fished out, which were predominately the larger ones at the current netting that occurred, the year of production that is being lost this year to a large extent, and, frankly, just plain bad luck that the weather is not co-operating in terms of spawning around Lake Dauphin in particular, and Lake of the Prairies I believe would be in a similar situation, the amount of spawn that is going to survive is, by all indications, pretty low.

I am sure the minister may be able to find examples of where spawning is occurring successfully, but, nevertheless, if the minister would take this as friendly advice, he would certainly make a lot of people who are very much tied to the welfare of those lakes feel better if there was an additional and a very determined effort made to do some stock enhancement. If he would remind me, he said that he indicated that some money had been allocated towards enhancement and that some fry were going to be grown. Can he restate the number that he expects to see in a stocking program, particularly in Lake Dauphin? Mr.

Latblin: Two hundred thousand fry. Mr. Cummings: Well, with the greatest of respect, I would suggest that that is not enou?h. It is important that the second leg of that, wh1ch is the supply and the fish enhancement opportunities that may be going by the way, will there by any- An Honourable Member: No catfish for the Red River at all. Mr. Cummings: Right. If Lake Dauphin gets lower, we are going to have to have catfish, yes. I mean lower in water levels, especially the ones that have a blue tag, right? The concern I have, Mr.

Minister, is that when we first started meeting in this Committee of Supply there were concerns raised about whether or not there was going to be enough money available for fish enhancement groups to in fact do some trucking. It was understood that they may have to raise money to pay for trucking to move fry into place. Have there been any added grants or supports go into the area to provide fish habitat enhancement and/or support the local groups to truck in stocks, in other words, fry of whatever size, better yet, fingerlings.

The minister referenced the fact there were going to be some fry that would be grown out to fmgerling size before they are released. That is certainly positive but if there is just the business as usual approach to this, I would suggest that we. are all going to be in for a very unhappy surpnse, not just because of the fishing pressure but compounded by the impact of local weather. Give me some assurance that people will be given assistance to move the fry and fingerlings into place, or will this be a departmental undertaking? * (15:10) Mr. Latblin: Mr.

Chairperson, I believe the member will be aware because it has only been two and a half years since he has been out of office. He was there for a long time. I have been there two and a half years and I am mindful or I am aware that just about every year there are grant monies given to sports fishermen groups around that area. As I stated earlier, just this spring, we have allocated some $10,000 to that area. The total budget of the sports fish enhancement program is about $350,000 a year and that gets allocated. We are trying to allocate it to cover all of Manitoba and not just directed at a particular area.

I made it known to our staff that this money is to be spread around and for this year, for example, we have not yet fully allocated the fish enhancement money. So we will be looking at other areas though to fund. In response to the member's other question or statement and that is, is 200 000 fry enough, you know, he seems to dispute that.

1880 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May28, 2002 I would just like to say, and I am sure he did too when he was minister of the Crown, right now I am following the advice of professional people, the fisheries biologists. This is where I am getting my advice from. Our decisions on stocking of lakes are not political decisions. We would certainly be stocking Lake Dauphin if that was the advice that I was given by the professional people. Similarly we take the advice of those experts when it comes to sustainability of Lake Dauphin.

If it can be shown that restocking or stock enhancement can be useful, well, then, that is where we would want to go. Mr. Cummings: So, then, is the minister going to use the commercial fishing licences as a buffer by removing them from all activity? Mr. Lathlin: I can indicate to the member that the commercial net fishery on Lake Dauphin has been suspended and this closure affects anglers and treaty domestic net fishing. The limits of fishing during the spawning period up to, in this case it was May 11, has been extended to the end of October 2002.

It also limits taking of spawning size walleye for the rest of the year. Mr. Cummings: How many pounds of commercial fishery have been eliminated? Mr. Lathlin: I can say to the member that for the winter fishery we believe that 50 000 pounds would probably have been eliminated. Of course, there is no summer fishery. I am not a hundred percent certain of that 50 000 pounds, but I am just going to double-check and then advise the member again as we go along. Mr.

Cummings: While the mtmster is confirming the number of 50 000 being the potential commercial catch that would be removed from that lake annually, then he has moved· to protect the fishery, as he sees it evolving for the future, at the loss of the commercial fishermen. That may not be something that he intended, but it seems to be abundantly clear that if their quota is now eliminated, then there are 50 000 pounds of unused catch that are being protected for the benefit of the lake.

The problem that I think the minister has created, inadvertently or otherwise, has he developed any plan for dealing with the concerns of these commercial fishermen? The majority of my riding on the east side, combined ranching and commercial fishery operations are pretty much the common as opposed to the rare. I understand that a dozen or 15 commercial fishermen or 20 of them who may have quotas plus or minus a thousand to two or three thousand, depending on what numbers the minister can confirm here.

They traditionally have been able to pass on that quota the same as if I chose to I would pass on my farm to one of my family. Is the minister aware of the difficulties that the commercial fishermen may have as a result of his decision, and does he have a plan to address their concerns? Mr. Lathlin: I can indicate to the member that for commercial fishing in that area each quota is very small, as he has alluded to or suggested. These are not what we typically call commercial fishermen who depend on the fishing for their living.

As the member knows, the primary source of income would probably be in the area of agriculture. This coming winter's fishery will be decided after our indexed netting is completed this fall. We cannot eliminate the quota. It can be sold, it can be passed on, et cetera, as he suggests. If Government wants to retire the quota, then, again, the member has been around here longer than I have. Then it is obligated to compensate. Mr. Cummings: So that I understand, is the minister saying that he is not interfering in the quota system as it has currently been practised?

I understand and they may well understand that he has grounds to eliminate the catch for this upcoming winter. Has he given any indication on whether or not he will interfere in the continuation of these quotas? I am interested to hear him say, and I give him credit for saying that if the thought was to take the quotas and eliminate them from the lake that compensation might well be involved. That raises the question of whether or not he intends to make any offer to these fishermen. Will he suspend the ability of them to catch and let it sit for a while? * (15:20) Mr. Lathlin: I am not sure what the member means.

I think a couple of times he said

May 28, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1881 interfere. I do not know what that means. If we retired the quota with compensation it would be voluntary only. We have looked at the possibility of such a program, as I think the previous government may have done as well, but I have not proceeded with anything thus far. Mr. Cummings: Well, the minister is correct that over the years these quotas have been arbitrarily shrunk, the amount that can be harvested, but they are shrunk to the point where people would feel similarly to what the minister said. That is, well, this is not your sole source of income.

Therefore it is not as important to you as it once was. That argument, of course, can be made several ways. Very often off-farm income is what buys the groceries in some operations as well. I speak from knowledge of a lot of part time fishermen on Lake Manitoba. My concern is that if the minister and the ministry want to remove 50 000 pounds of fishing pressure from the lake, are they going to do it by attrition, which means that the lake is under pressure today and it will need the break. I think most people would come close to acknowledging that even if it was them who holds the quota.

They know that there needs to be some action taken. But they fear that the next step is that they will not be able to pass their quotas on, as they have been accustomed to, to other members of their family when they choose to become inactive, and, therefore, by attrition they will be eliminated. That is what I mean when I talked about interfering with the normal process that has occurred over a period of decades on the lake.

Did I understand the minister correctly to say that if he was going to disallow commercial fishery that there would be compensation or, let me put a hypothesis forward, is the minister interested in buying these quotas and then redistributing them as a result of negotiations on his co-management program, negotiations that have been undertaken? I am not telling tales out of school or pointing fingers so much as I know full well.

People from time to time have asked me about whether or not the co-management agreement would in fact embrace some of the Aboriginal community being able to pick up commercial fishing capacity on that lake. I think all the present commercial fish licence holders would like is some clarity and some direction so that they can either defend themselves or plan their lives accordingly. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I want to advise the member that the amount of fish to be taken in the commercial fishery will be, as I said earlier, determined by our index netting. We are not arbitrarily eliminating anyone's quota.

It is not our intention to do that. We were told earlier that West Region Tribal Council was not interested in a buyback and redistribution of the quota. I would again say to the member that this is an issue that lends itself to having all the interests around the table working towards the same goals in managing the fishery in that area. * (15 :30) Mr.

Cummings: Well, I am pleased to hear the minister say that because that is the very thing that several of us on our side of the House have been hamm ering on, and that is that there are groups who feel that they have not been heard or have not been embraced in bringing a plan into place. I do not have to plow that ground again. But I have some degree of unease about the way the minister is answering the question about the commercial fishery. To say that the decision will not be made until fall, I think, from my own perspective, is only delaying the inevitable.

Now, if the minister and the department truly believe that there is possibility for commercial fishing this fall, that would be a very promising announcement to be made. Could the minister tell me if it is true that the commercial fishermen have already had indicated to them that, unless the ban on net fishing that is in the lake today is lifted, they are out of business? Is that what the minister means by a decision will be made this fall, or would there be perhaps a complete rearrangement of the regulatory regime on the lake at the time of a fall asses sment? Is there an honest-to-goodness possibility?

It does not have to be any better than 50-50. I understand that none of us can stick our heads down there and count the number of fish. There will have to be careful assessment and spot netting and so on occur to make a decision. All of the indicators at this point from people that I have confidence in do not support the fact that this fishery is undamaged. The commercial fishermen believe today that they

1882 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May28 , 2002 will not have an opportunity to fish this coming winter and that they will not have an opportunity to pass on their quota if they decide that they are getting too old for the business and do not intend to maintain their quota. Can the minister confirm that (1) their ability to pass on their quota remains unchanged, and (2 ) that there is at least a 50-50 possibility of a winter fishery, given the positive results that he believes he is finding in the current state of the lake? Mr.

Lathlin: I want to say to the member that I believe that is always the way the commercial catch has been decided, by the indexed netting. We can get a firm statement from our biologists concerning the prognosis of the winter fishery, but as always, the winter fishery numbers will await whatever numbers we get from our indexed netting. I want to, again, say we have no intention to, arbitrarily or without compensation, eliminate the quota or even the ability to pass it along to other family members. Mr. Cummings: I thank the minister for that.

I think you will probably reduce the level of concern in that particular group of people, because I am pretty sure that they felt that they were at some considerable risk. We will have to await the readings this fall, but I will believe one statement on the record, and I would like to turn the opportunity to question the minister over to my colleagues.

In environment, everybody talks about the precautionary principle, in other words, take action even if it is not entirely provable that there is a problem, and I would suspect the minister, through the policies that he inherited through the department and probably through his own consideration, accepts the fact that from the environmental perspective a fair bit of respect for the precautionary principle will save you a lot of grief.

That is why I believe very strongly that he can say what he likes about spreading around the money in terms of fish enhancement, stocking programs, special grants that he may have available. He could take the opportunity to arbitrarily decide that he wants to put a bit of emphasis in these areas because he knows there has been some new pressure on the lakes. He knows that there are a lot of people who have concern about the level of fishing that has occurred, and it might go a long way toward preserving the reputation. This is not about me and the minister or the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers).

This is about a lot of good people in that area, some who are in my riding, many who are in the Member for Dauphin's riding, many around the Russell-Roblin area, who do receive a significant amount of income because of the reputation of those two lakes. They are good pickerel fishing lakes. Lake Dauphin has recovered once already. It has become a first-class North American lake that has a reputation everywhere, according to all of the tourist information. Lake of the Prairies is equally as good. But Lake Dauphin sticks out because it was a lake that has been severely damaged.

It has environmental issues because it is flat and because of the erosion problems, silting problems. There have been literally thousands of people who have put their best thoughts toward protecting this lake and enhancing this lake, and it has gained a reputation from which there are considerable spinoffs which I cannot calculate and I suspect anybody else who says they can calculate is going to have to do some creative thinking.

But it goes without thinking that there are hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of benefit to the area aside from the recreational aspects and enjoyment that comes from people who live nearby and use that lake and benefit from it. So, from this side of the House, both my colleague the Member for Lakeside (Mr. Enns) and I were deeply involved in establishing the Lake Dauphin Advisory Committee, which in the early going was seen to be doing some of the most imaginative and creative thinking and planning in terms of protecting that lake. They never got enough money to work with.

We would acknowledge that and they would too, but the changes that have occurred in the last decade in that lake, not because of what we did so much but by what the people in the area did to benefit a resource that they are very proud of is just enormous. I just want to leave the minister with that consideration, that from this side of the House, we see an opportunity for him to take the initiative and do something. If I simply wanted

May 28, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 83 to make politics out of this, I would not be saying that. I would not give them the opportunity to have the benefit of going into these organizations and saying-or I would not be suggesting that he take the benefit politically, and go in and do something to seek some remedial support in those areas. But the Lake Dauphin Advisory Committee and all of the other organizations that are so concerned about this need some demonstration not only of good faith around the negotiations but of good faith about maintaining and enhancing the resource.

I know the concerns that are raised about stocking, but, in the end, if we do not make an effort, then we know that Mother Nature can sometimes be very forgiving or not, and this generation of politicians will wear the horns if Lake Dauphin does not recover pretty quickly because the people around the communities will not be so forgiving. With that, I do not necessarily expect the minister to respond. I just leave him with a little bit of free advice. * (15: 40) Mr. Lathlin: Well, I, of course, thank the member for the member's wise counsel.

I would like to also tell him, however, that I think that he and I are not even apart on this goal of protecting the environment, conserving the resources, that there be sustainability. I want to advise him that we do have to talk about other areas of the province. I am quite mindful of the situation in Lake Dauphin and Lake of the Prairies, but I am also mindful of the situation at Cedar Lake, the Saskatchewan River, Moose Lake. Like the member, some of that area and some of those fishermen-well, most of those fishermen live in my riding, and I see them every weekend when I go home.

They tell me about the problems they are having at Moose Lake. They tell me about the problems they are having at Saskatchewan, and the people from Chemahawin tell me that the fishing situation in Cedar Lake seems to be coming up, but they are really afraid that when they start fishing again it might go back to the same situation as before. While I accept the member's advice to pay particular attention to Lake Dauphin and Lake of the Prairies, I also want to say that I do not think he would advise me to overlook these other areas, you know, if indeed we are talking about sustainability. Mr.

Gerald Hawranik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Chairperson, I believe that the restocking program is a very important part of the Fisheries budget. I think the minister would agree with that statement. He should agree with that statement because it speaks to the sustainability of the resource, of the fishing resources that we have in the province. My concern is one that was given to me by one of my constituents. He mentioned that the Fisheries budget has been reduced in the fish hatchery at West Hawk Lake by up to 20 percent. Can the minister tell me whether that is correct, and, if not, how much was it reduced by? Mr.

Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I want to apologize to the member that the numbers that we have here are the overall Budget numbers. I do not have numbers, you know, to reflect hatchery-by-hatchery activity. What I will do is I will make a commitment to the member that as soon as I am able to I can get those numbers for him. Mr. Hawranik: I have another question voiced to me by one of my constituents in Lac du Bonnet. It is not with regard to fishing, it is with regard to the hunting farms that about a year ago were, as I understand it, were- Mr. Chairperson: Order, please. We have a difficult time hearing you.

Would you pull the mike up closer? Mr. Hawranik: Yes, I have another question, not relating to fisheries, but certainly relating to hunting farms, which I understand that about a year ago have been legislated out of existence. I have a constituent in Lac du Bonnet that in fact was producing deer for hunting purposes. His concern is whether or not, and I understand there is no program, there are discussions about whether there will be compensation available to those farms that are put out of business by that legislation? Mr. Lathlin: Mr.

Chairperson, I can indicate to the member that the legislation I believe he is

1884 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May28, 2002 referring to is one having to do with penned hunting. We have allowed a phase-out period of two years. Right now, there are no plans for any compensation program. I also want to advise the member that, in addition to the two-year phase out period, there was about one year advance warning prior to the bill being proclaimed. The number of inquiries from farm operators and public concerning the transition provisions and the effective dates of closure are continuing to decline.

So I think we are at a point now where the transition might almost be completed with the exception of maybe a few people. * (15: 50) Mr. Hawranik: I understand that there was a two-year phase-out period, but that is with respect, I believe, to in fact getting rid of the stock that they have, the inventory that they have. My concern is not necessarily with the inventory but with the substantial capital investment that each of these people made in terms of fencing, in terms of land inventory and feeding systems, watering systems and so on.

I am wondering whether the department is even considering whether or not to compensate these people for the loss of business, because there certainly is a loss of a business opportunity that was out there, and I believe they should be compensated. Are there any plans at all to look at that issue again and to perhaps compensate them for that loss of business? Mr. Lathlin: I want to advise the member that currently there are no plans being considered for compensation.

I also know that, during the lead up to this legislation, during public hearings, it was made very clear at that time, as well, that the compensation program would not be likely. I understand that the Department of Agriculture and Food is prepared to work with operators to develop alternate uses for their facilities. Again, I want to say to the member, currently, there are no plans. We are not considering anything right now to compensate those operators. Mr.

Hawranik: I would like just to emphasize that I think that what the Government has done in terms of their actions with these farms is really expropriation without compensation, and I think that you may be leaving the Province open to perhaps these farm operators taking the Government to court and looking for compensation. I am wondering whether the minister would at least reconsider his position with respect to compensation for loss of business, whether he would even consider something like that. Mr. Lathlin: Again, I would have to indicate to the member that we are not contemplating compensation at this time.

We will continue to work with our legal counsel, the Department of Justice, which we have been doing for some time now. Unless they advise otherwise, we are going to have to stick to the position that we started out with. Mr. Harry Enos (Lakeside): I appreciate the minister allowing my colleague to ask a few questions not related to the Fisheries item. He has other committees to attend as well. We will pass this Fisheries

section shortly, Mr. Chairman, but, in response to my colleague, the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard), the minister and the department gave some fishing stats on the various lakes emitted from the stats on Lake Manitoba, which is the fishes that I am particularly interested in. Many of my constituents are fishing on Lake Manitoba. You gave us the stats for the sauger catch and the walleye, but I believe there is a fairly significant perch, a small fish catch, on that lake. Just for my record keeping, would that information be available? If not, I would accept your commitment to maybe provide it to me. Mr.

Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I want to indicate to the member that, during the winter of 2001-2002, perch production was at 444 300 kilograms. I am told this was an 81% increase. Mr. Stan Struthers, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair Mr. Enos: Mr. Acting Chairman, that is why I raised the issue, because my reports, although the catch on some of the other species was down, the reports that I received is that they had an excellent year in the perch fisheries, and you are confirming that. Thank you. During that discussion with the Member for River Heights (Mr. Gerrard), if I recall, the

May 28, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 85 minister had pointed out that we continue to have difficulties up at Lake Winnipegosis. That lake, regrettably, as those of us who have watched it for the past number of years, decades, has had its ups and downs and continues to be, I understand, a problem with respect to commercial fishing. Can the minister give us any indication about what specific departmental activity is taking place on Lake Winnipegosis? We have done different things. We have brought back commercial licensing. We have reduced the catch over the years. Different governments have done this.

There are, in the minds of some of the fishermen, ongoing problems with the cormorant populations there that at times created quite a scene that attracted international attention when fishermen took matters into their own hands, so to speak. Are cormorants still part of the problem up at Lake Winnipegosis? Mr. Lathlin: I thank the member for that question.

Lake Winnipegosis commercial fishery, I understand that, upon the recom mendations of an independent consultant that had done the work, the department is considering implementing a broad stakeholder board to advise on management of Lake Winnipegosis to reha bilitate the walleye population. Once this advisory board is fully appointed, because I am told that we have approached some people already, we will ask that particular board to look at five key areas, and that is to look at harvest reduction, to look at the spring spawning protection.

Also, we are going to ask them to look at the cormorant issue, how: it can be effectively controlled. Walleye stocking, they are going to look at, and also they are going to look at the habitat enhancement protection to see what could be done in that area. An advisory board would facilitate the fisher management decisions on such contentious issues as winter perch fishing, spring mullet fishing and walleye harvest reductions. * (1 6:00) Mr. Enns: I thank the minister for that information.

Lake Winnipegosis is one of our big, beautiful bodies of water that deserve the attention of the department and of the Government. I am pleased to hear the steps that he has taken. Earlier on, the minister indicated that, on many of these fishing matters, he relies on the expert advice of his professional staff people. I want to be the first to acknowledge that the department has excellent staff people, excellent professionals, but there are cases where you have to be a little careful, Mr.

Minister, about what kind of advice they give you, like the advice that I can recall that ju st about got me in trouble from some of these same professionals in dealing with the cormorant problem. We knew we had to do something because people were taking matters into their own hands. They were indiscriminately shooting and burning nests and so forth. So one of those very brilliant biologists got this idea that, well, Enns, all you have to do is hire a bunch of students. We will take all the eggs out of the nests as the cormorants are laying their eggs and replace them with wooden eggs.

They look the same, coloured the same. It would actually make a little make-work project for somebody making these cormorant eggs in the right quantities and shape. The reason why it was not just good enough to take the eggs out and smash the eggs, the female cormorant would keep on laying eggs, but if you replaced them with wooden eggs, that kind of confuses her. It is only after well past the normal gestation period for incubation for eggs to hatch that she catches and she has passed her egg-laying stage.

She is by this time well stressed and traumatized because there are no little baby cormorants coming under her wings. That way you can, seriously, I was told by my experts, reduce the cormorant population in a kind of Vicki Bums acceptable, humane way, Mr. Minister. I thought it over and I could see the headlines: Enns taking the eggs out from underneath the cormorant hens and replacing them with wooden eggs. I mean, they would start talking about wooden-nickel Enns and stuff like that if I would have tried that stunt. So on occasion you have to weigh the advice that you get from your experts.

I am sure the minister is doing that.

1886 LEGISLATNE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 2002 Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Acting Chairperson, well, I can appreciate the member's advice. I agree with him. Sometimes good technical advice is not necessarily good political advice or vice versa. Mr. Chairperson in the Chair Mr. Chairperson: 12.4. Conservation Programs (

t) Fisheries

(2) Fish Culture (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $661,300- pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $227,400-pass ..

(3) Fisheries Habitat Management (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $448, 1 00-pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $51,500-pa ss. (4) Sport and Commercial Fishing Management (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $630,700-pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $59,200-pass.

(5) Northern Fishermen's Freight Assistance $410,000. Mr. Enos: Just a question, how does this figure relate to the immediate-it indicates no change. Is this assistance remaining roughly at this level for the last several years? I am asking, is it up or down? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, this is a program that at one time I guess the total budget was $410,000. Then, because of budget consid eration, it was reduced to $250,000. Then a year ago I guess, a couple of years ago, we added another $160,000 to bring it back up to $410,000 again. Mr. Chairperson: 4. Conservation Programs (

t) Fisheries

(5) Northern Fishermen's Freight Assistance $41 0,000-pass. 4. (t)

(6) Fisheries Enhancement Initiative $350,000-pass. 4.(

g) Wildlife and Ecosystem Protection

(1) Administration (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $464,300. Shall the item pass? Mr. Enos: Mr. Chairman, not to necessarily prolong the consideration here, but if we can kind of deal with wildlife matters in total here, a few generalized questions. I wonder if the tmmster can give us an indication about the health of the wild fur industry. We hear reports, certainly I have noticed that fur has regained some of its fashion appeal in the fashion houses around the world, I am told.

I do not have many trappers that are my constituents, although the minister would be surprised at the num ber of trappers even in the relatively rural area close to an urban centre like Winnipeg that are engaged in trapping, but that there has generally been, not in all species, a recovery both in the prices and in the opportunities for our trappers. What is the state of health of our trapping industry? What do the people like the Manitoba Trappers Association tell the minister these days about their industry? Mr. Chairperson: I would like to ask the committee here if they would like a global discussion on 4.(

g) because it seems like we are skipping ahead. We are doing different sections. Is there agreement to go ahead and ask questions on a global concept here? Mr. Enos: Well, Mr. Chairman, actually we were getting on pretty good when your buddy was in the chair. You seem to be determined to find ways to confuse us. Mr. Chairperson: Agreed? Okay, it is agreed. We will continue as we are. Thank you. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I was about to say that the information I am getting is that the industry seems to be more or less stable. There have not been any dramatic increases, however.

I know from my own personal experience, and that experience is based on talking to trappers, the beaver seems to be doing fairly well. There has been a slight increase. As far as the muskrat pelt is concerned, there does not seem to be much growth there at all, given the price of the muskrat pelts. So overall, I think, again, talking to our people and talking to some trappers, not many trappers but some trappers, it would seem to me that the industry is somewhat stable. * (16:10) Mr. Enos: Mr. Chairman, I note that in this division the minister has seen fit to make some senior management changes, one Mr. Brian

May 28, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 1887 Gillespie, who has been up to now the Wildlife director has been moved to the regions, I understand. I am not exactly sure. I had occasion to meet your new Wildlife director. Mr. Dubois, I believe, Jack Dubois, is no stranger to any of us. He has been active in various quasi government appointments both for the past government and now, obviously, for this Government. I take this occasion because these are relatively senior staffing changes. What was the rationale behind the reorganization of these directorships?

I am ref erring to both the Parks directorship, which I understand has dis appeared, or has it disappeared? I do not know. The Wildlife change, is it just a matter of personnel changes that the minister wished to introduce, or is this part of an overall reorganizational plan within the department? Mr. Lathlin: Well, Mr. Chairperson, I can indicate to the member that Mr. Gillespie-in fact, I met with him not that long ago. I was in the Ashern office. We had lunch with staff there, and then we visited a couple of farms that had fencing to prevent elk from coming in. So I spent the better part of a day with Mr.

Gillespie, who is now the regional director in the Interlake Region. Being a regional director, of course, is a promotion. It is a bigger job than director of Wildlife. Mr. Gillespie ended up in the Interlake because a retirement had occurred and there was a void that had to be filled there. He applied for the position and was successful. Mr. Enos: Mr. Chairman, I am trying to recall, who was the retired director in the Interlake Region? Mr. Lathlin: Worth Hayden. Mr. Enos: Pass. Mr. Chairperson: 12.4. (

g) Wildlife and Ecosystem Protection

(1) Administration (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $464,300-pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $370,400-pass; (

c) Grant Assistance $207,000-pass. 4.(g)

(2) Game and Fur Management (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $621 ,800-pass; {

b) Other Expenditures $388,900--pass; Grant Assistance $89,900-pass. 4.(g)

(3) Habitat Management and Ecosystem Monitoring (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $907,500. Mr. Enos: In the area of habitat protection, I have a few questions that I would like to put on the record. One of the vehicles for habitat protection was the creation of the Manitoba Habitat Heritage Corporation.

Of course, the other major program that was a program of some tenure, I believe 10 or 15 years when it was my privilege to initiate it back in the early nineties, is the North American Waterfowl Management Plan, which co-operated with a number of other agencies as well as the federal government, and, most importantly, brought to the table, brought to the habitat programs here in Manitoba some American money, significant American money to help us improve, in this instance, habitat principally for our migratory game birds, for our duck populations, and, rightly or wrongly, the pothole

section of southern Manitoba was kind of designated as a specific region where these programs were applicable. There were a host of programs, programs that supported the private farmer, the private landowner in carrying out dif ferent programs on his landscape that were beneficial to the waterfowl habitat. In some instances, it was monies to maintain cover, grass cover for longer periods of time; in some instances it was the total dedication of certain acreage around potholes not to be disturbed, and so forth. Can the minister indicate to me, is that program still running? Or has that program concluded?

If so, can he give us some indication of the funding arrangements and the level of funding that is currently being applied to the North American Waterfowl Management program. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chair, yes, I can indicate to the member that the North American Waterfowl Management Plan still exists. We are still part of the management plan. There is a grand payment of $645,000 that is budgeted for the Manitoba Habitat Heritage Corporation to provide op erating funds for that particular group. It is still

1888 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May 28, 2002 very much alive, and I think it is a worthwhile program. Mr. Eons: Mr. Chairman, so that does refresh my memory. The Manitoba Habitat Heritage Corporation is the vehicle being used by the department, by the Government to finance the commitments under the North American Water fowl Management program. Mr. Lathlin: Yes. Mr. Enns: Can the minister indicate whether or not a long-time federal and provincial public servant by the name of Mr. Ted Poyser was the chairman of that program of the Habitat Heritage Corporation?

Is he still with the organization, or has he retired? If so, who have you replaced him with? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chair, yes, that Ted Poyser is still there. He is still chair. * (16:20) Mr. Enns: Mr. Chairman, I just want to encourage the minister.

In the area of wildlife management, in the area of conservation and in the area of co-operation between various levels of government, a lot of individual stakeholders, and in this case, it is an international agreement that involves the United States and Mexico, as the minister is fully aware, it is, in my humble opinion, really a program and a success story that we can all be reasonably proud of despite a serious ravaging of their habitat, despite natural problems that any species cope with from time to time, drought, disease, et cetera, and despite the fact that it is probably the most popular hunting sport that is engaged in by mankind in all three countries.

We are looking at the overall hunting numbers going down, but bird hunting is still very attractive to many people in Canada and throughout the United States. Despite all of this, the health and sustainability of our migratory game birds, in most instances, has been remarkably successful. I attribute that to the dedicated professionals both within your department and in the private sector, in our province, in the country, in the United States, in Mexico, that have made this possible.

I always felt very privileged to be representing Manitoba in some of these international meetings that involve the migratory game bird convention that we are signatory to. I commend the minister to keep this in mind when he addresses issues that come up from time to time in this area of his department. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, I just want to add further to advise the member that this Manitoba Habitat Heritage Corporation is a very useful vehicle, even though it gets the $645,000. Well, to me it is a lot of money, but when you look at the, you know, what it has to do, perhaps $645,000 may not be a big number.

What it does is it levers funds from other non-Manitoba sources. For example, so far it has been able to get written commitments of some $3.3 million from non-Manitoba sources over a three-year period. So it does a lot of good work. Since I have been here I have met with the board and staff I guess twice. Each time they come in and do a report. I enjoy those meetings, you know, especially when they tell us all this good work that they are doing. Mr. Enns: Well, Mr. Chairman, the minister makes the very point that this is the uniqueness of these programs.

Money is money, where a provincial dollar generates, or, as he says, leverages five, six, seven, eight other dollars from other sources. I would submit, Mr. Chairman , your Wildlife boys could teach your colleague the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) a few lessons in how to leverage money out of the federal government or other sources to help our struggling health industry. If the Health people came anywhere close in matching the leverage that you are accomplishing in this program, we would not have a problem in our health care system.

What I always got a kick out of, he would get some money out of those Yankees that, you know, as a rule, do not like to spend their money unless they have total control over everything. It is a great program. Keep it up, Mr. Minister. Mr. Chairperson: 4. Conservation Programs (

g) Wildlife and Ecosystem Protection

(3) Habitat Management and Ecosystem Monitoring (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $907,500-pass;

May 28, 2002 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 18 89 (

b) Other Expenditures $113 ,300- pass; (

c) Grant Assistance $645 ,000-pa ss. 4. (g)

(4) Biodiversity Conservation (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $34 7,1 00- pass; (

b) Other Expenditures $80,3 00- pass. 4.(g)

(5) Canada-Manitoba Waterfowl Damage Prevention Agreement $350 ,400-pass. 4. (g)

(6) Wildlife Habitat Enhancement Initiative $225 ,000-pas s. 4. (

h) Special Conservation and Endangered Species Fund $432, 10 0. Mr. Enos: Is this all provincial dollars, or does this generate, you know, some additional dollars from other sources as well? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Chairperson, yes, this fund here is all government money, but it is used to, again, lever by way of partnerships other organizations. Mr. Enos: What exactly do you do with this money? Mr. Lathlin: This Special Conservation and Endangered Species Fund provides funding to non-profit, community-based organizations to undertake projects which will enhance the natural resources of the province.

The fund allows these organizations to develop local proje cts and help them to develop a better understanding of natural resources issues and the environment that they live in. It is provided to mostly conservation-oriented organizations, conservation projects promoting the principles of sustainable development. * (16: 30) Mr. Eons: Do the conservation districts receive any of these dollars? Mr. Lathlin: Last year, apparently, two applied, but only one got funding, and that was the Pembina Valley Conservation District. Mr. Chairperson: Line 4. Conservation Programs (

h) Special Conservation and Endangered Species Fund $432, 10 0-p ass. 4.(

j) Pollution Prevention

(1) Salaries and Employee Benefits $614, 500-pass ;

(2) Other Expenditures $76,8 00- pass. 4.(

k) Lands

(1) Crown Lands Operations (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $8 14,300. Shall the line pass? Mr. Eons: Mr. Chairman, just a few questions on the Crown Lands Operations. This is still being operated out of the community of Minnedosa? Mr. Lathlin: It is actually out ofNeepawa, I am advised. Mr. Eons: Can the minister indicate who is the current director for Crown Lands? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Harley Jonasson. Mr. Eons: Thank you. Mr. Chairperson: We will read 4. Conservation Programs (

k) Lands

(1) Crown Lands Operations (

a) Salary and Employee Benefits $81 4,300- pass; (

b) Other Expenditures, $1 ,306,3 00- pass. 4.(k)

(2) Crown Land Registry (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $23 7,900-pa ss; (

b) Other Expenditures $161 ,3 00-pass. 4.( k)

(3) Remote Sensing (

a) Salaries and Employee Benefits $551 ,300. Shall the line pass? Mr. Enos: Is this the group that provides us with a host of satellite imagery? I believe it used to provide information for our Forestry Branch in terms of their inventory work, in terms of fire potential, fire surveillance. I understand that it also does some work that has some international customers in the grains trade, did some co operative work with the Canadian Wheat Board in mapping, remote sensing, remote mapping of the different crop-producing areas of the world that would provide market information to organizations like the Wheat Board.

Is this the group that does all of those things? Mr. Lathlin: Yes. I can advise the member that this is the

section that deals with, for example, this year the plans are to start the forest land cover mapping using satellite data in conjunction with our Forestry Branch to meet the core forest information of the Kyoto Protocol; updating the 19 94 land use land cover to the year 2000 for the agri-Manitoba region; and also update the Manitoba land initiative database compiling 24 satellite image composites for the crop information program of the Wheat Board, what

1890 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA May28 , 2002 the member is referring to; then compiling 20 Canada-wide satellite image composites for the GeoComp program through the Canadian global change image processing; then co-ordinates all the projects that are under the Manitoba RADARSAT announcement of opportunity; and then compiling some digital topographic data of the Cross Lake for Lands Branch under the Northern Flood Agreements zone. Typically that is the activity that is involved. Mr. Enos: What is the vacancy situation in this division? Mr. Lathlin: The vacancy rate for this

section is one out of eleven. Mr. Enos: What was that vacancy rate again? Mr. Lathlin: One vacancy out of eleven positions. Mr. Enos: We are making good progress here. I am prepared to continue making good progress. I wonder if the minister would permit my colleague to refer back to some of the fishery items that are of particular concern to him, understandably, Lake of the Prairies. At this time, as you recall, the minister was about to answer his questions the last time, but we rang the bells instead. Go ahead. Fire away. Mr.

Chairperson: Is there leave for the Member for Russell to revert back to other lines that have already been passed? [Agreed] * (1 6: 40) Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I thank the minister for allowing for some questions with respect to Fisheries. I know that many of the questions may have been asked by either the member from Ste. Rose or the member from Lakeside, but, nevertheless, netting, and I call it the illegal netting of fishing, has caused a significant impact on the fisheries in the west side of the province.

I have a particular interest in that and a responsibility, I think, to the citizens of those areas to get a better understanding from the minister as to what the long-term plans are for sustaining the fishery and also for ensuring that we never again witness what we witnessed last winter on the lakes. By way of just refreshing the minister's mind, last winter we saw just an enormous number of nets being placed in the lakes, not for sustenance purposes, as the treaty calls for, but this was a commercial style operation. You know, Mr.

Minister, I do not know if I have talked to an individual out there who would have said no to Aboriginal people taking fish for sustenance purposes. As a matter of fact, most people there agreed that if an individual wanted to take home a bag of fish every day that would not bother them, for his family. More importantly, I have to tell the minister that I spoke with lots of Aboriginal people, lots of First Nations people, who told me that what was going on at the lake was ludicrous. They did not support it at all, and they would have encouraged the minister to take some action against these individuals.

Now, the situation got so out of hand that we saw natural resources officers actually escorting these individuals onto the lake to set their nets and take them out, and the general public stood by and watched. Yes, there was harassment of individuals, verbal harassment, and that is everybody's right, to get out on the lake and if you do not like what somebody is doing to register your protest. In a country where we believe in freedom of speech, that is still allowed. Then we witnessed even further abuse of the privileges by people actually leaving nets in the lake for weeks.

Report it to the department of natural resources, and natural resources officers were given instructions to leave those nets there. I am witness to that. Those nets stayed there for weeks. At the end, natural resources officers pulled the nets, but they shielded the operation from view, but some individuals did get in to view it. Actually, the rotted fish and the nets were put into tubs and taken away. Now, to stave off embarrassment, that was shielded, if you like, from the public's view. This spring, just a week ago, we saw more nets pulled out of the lake with rotten fish.

Nets that had sunk to the bottom, across the mouths of streams, were pulled out of the lake with rotting fish in them. Now, Mr. Minister and Mr. Chair, through you to the minister, I cannot blame the minister for the actions of those people at all, but I want the minister to take ac

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-3-38
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 3rd hansardpdf 38.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	2516764b30a8bb2657d6b1819d29b95adcc0466e

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