VOL. PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT hOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 3:00 P.M. - 6:00 P.M. MONDAY, NOVEMBER 29, 1982 A

November 29,1982 Tape No. 2810 ah-1 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr.Speaker in the Chair $ MP.SPtT\KEP (Jusol 1.): Order, please FEMENTS BY MiNISTERS MR.SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR.HOUSE: Mr. Speaker,in responding to a question on No'ember 26th from the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.Roberts), I indicated to the House that the approved hospital budgets for 1982-83 fiscal year were based upon the actual expenditures of hospitals for 1981-82. I have since reviewed this matter in some detail, and wish to clarify some of the information.

A portion of the 1982-83 budgets for hospitals wao based upon actual expenses of 1981-82. That portion of the budget was I or such items as drugs, medical supplies, surgical supplies, food, fuel, etc. The other portion of the budget is that dealing with salarier and employee benefits. That figure was not based upn the actual cost for last year, as I may have indicated in response to the memhe.r for the Strait of Belle isle. Rather it was based upon an assessment of the approved staff complements for the hospitals in accordance with the appropriate collective agreements for 1982-83.

After both these reviews - that is the top one on actual and the collective agreements A reduction of less than one per cent was applied to lucluested hoepital budgets to bring these in line with the amount of funds available. The overall increase to hospital budgets still amounted to 15.5 per cent over and above their actual expenses of 1981-82. Some may have received a little more and some a little less. 5905

November 29,1982 Tape No. 2810 ah-2 MR.HOtJSE: And I want to make the point that the department did not simply add 15.5 per cent to the actual hospital expenditures anrl neither did it vary by I per cent either way. Mr Speaker, I would like to say a few words about the budgetary situation at St. Clara's in response to a number of news reports recently regarding the particular hospital. The following points are relevant: In early June of this year,my department advised St. Clara's and other hospitals of their approved budgets for the 1982-83 fiscal year. In late August,the department became aware that St.

Clarc's might have to undertake specific actions in terms of reduction of services in order to operate within its approved budget. In September, St. Clare's advised my department that they would need an additional $550,000 to carry on operations at the current level at that time. Other hospitals 5906 A

November 29, 1982 Tape 2811 EC - 1 MR. HOUSE: also indicated they may have problems operating within their approved budgets. The requests of these hospitals and others were considered but,in view of the financial position of the Province, government decided that it could not increase the budgets beyond the 15.5 per cent of last year's expenditures. All hospitalr, including St. Glare's, were written on September 91 1982 and advised that government was not in a position to provide any additional funds to hospitals beyond the amount approved in their budgets.

That was three times at least we had told them that the budget was final. Mr. Speaker, I met with St. Glare's last week and we, with representatives from St. Glare's, have agreed to undertake a complete review of staffing services and programmes for the budget year 1983 - 1984. MR._ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr.

Speaker, let me first of all acknowledge that the minisLer, in answering questions which I posed to him on Friday, did indicate that he would wish to check some of the answers he was giving and I am grateful to hLm, and I know the Ilouse is, for his action in doing so and now making this clarification statement today, the first opportunity1 in the parliamentary ;enn ,thaf b hi hd A living said that, Mr. Speaker, I will, wi LIilii I lu :uicu, vul:y briefly comment upon the two points which he made, and I would say to the minister that there are quite a number of questions for which he 5907

November 29, 1982 Tape 2811 EC -, 2 MR. ROBERTS: might as well nropare himself, and he may already have done so.. but informed himself as to what has been going (fl. Because I will say to him I that since Friday I have been given a great deal more information than even I had on Friday that brings into a very serious doubt the whole approach of this government, his department, in dealing with the hospitals, very grave issues of unfair in the sense of unequal treatment and of disparities. I have not said that before but I say it now, and I think the minister knows whereof I speak.

I would think that the conduct of the ministry needs some examination and I, together with my colleagues, propose to do what we cm. I would make just a very brief comment. I only saw th statement literally as the minister was readinq it I believe zi copy was sent to my colleague, the Opposition Leader (Mr. Noary) a little before the House met, but we certainly have not had an opportunity to consider it or deal with it. First of all, I would fasten upon the word 'assessment' and I would invite the House's attention to the word 'assessment' in the second paragraph.

That is a polite way of saying that the hospitals have been treated differently1 according to a subjective standard

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2812 NJ - 1 MR.E.ROBERTS: as to what they needed to enable thom to do their job. The minister and his staff made an assessment of the approved staff comp1iments I simple say that the government hove not given the hospitals enough money to enable them I o continue to operate with the approved staff compliments that they had last year, and the minister would have to agree with that . Pnd that leads to the situation, Mr.

Speaker, whereby the hospitals have had their staffs cut,And these cuts are not temporarythey, are permanent unless ind until the 1983-84 expenditures are approved at a much higher Level. Secondly, I have already adverted to the St. Clare's situations I do want to say that the situation at St. Clare's has not been fully answered by the minister. . Therm are, based on what I know, very real questions: Number one, about the services which St. Clare's will be able to offer.

I gather there are very serious issues as the quality of the services, the board itself took the unusual step on Saturday, I believe it was Saturday's papers had paid advertisements as to what was going on at St. dare's , a most unusual stop; and secondly, I would say, Mr. Speaker, and I will develop this in Question Period as the minister will be with us today, that there are very real issues as to the way in which St. Clare's has been treatedThcre appears to be evidence now that St. Clare's has not been treated equitably and fairly within The needs and within the means available.

I will leave it at that, Sir, anti I ()ift'at loll H' I I,ut. I would say to the minister that I would hope this Question Period he will have fully informed himself and he able to answer questions fully and completely in the House. I realize he cannot have all of these things, I would not expect him to have all of these things on the tip 5909

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2812 MJ - 2 MR. E. ROBERTS: of his tongue at all times, Mr. Speaker, but surely a matter this important and this timely, now that he has already had the opportunity to correct one set of answers,he will be able to answer us fully this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (RusselU: The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, not surprisingly I have some questions for the Minister of Health (Mr. W. House) on particularly the situation at St. Clere's .

I want to first of all ask him if the terms 'uncontrollable' or 'non-predictable costs' are currently being used by his officials to describe the costs incurred by hosnitals in operating their services relating particularly to that portion, to use his words in his just-made Ministerial Statement, 'such items as drugs, medical supplies' and so on. These are services from outside, non-staff services and they are called 'rion-predictible' or 'uncontrollable'.

Assuming those are the terms that are used1 and I do not pretend to be up on all of the jargon, I wonder if the minister could tell us whether the process duscrbed by him in his statement was applied to St. Clare's this year, whether they were in fact granted an increase equivalent to 15 per cent on the amount which they spent in nii-ilictabie 'uncontrol ib]e' costs last year? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Health. MR. hOUSE: Mr. Speaker, he MR. ROBERTS: Now, he careful, Wallace. 5910

Novemtr 29, 1982 Tape 2813 PK - 1 MR. HOUSE: -is asking a specific question about non-controllable items such as drugs and medical supplies and ;o on. The fact of the matter is the • assessment of that particular item was based upon actual cxpenses,as mentioncd,for 1981-1982. And the" no into a very detailed process of assessing each hospital's budget.

I did mentionof course, in the House of Assembly last da" Friday, that we made these assessments based on actua] coSt, and then I corrected it and said I would like to come back to make a further statement, if I was not correct, and I said the other thing was with the collective agreement and I have done that today. St. dare's was treated exactly the same as every other hospital in the Province in their uncontrollable or their controllable parts of their budget.

It is as simple as that, And when it worked out,of course, we got about, as I said, roughly within 1 per cent of about 15.5 per cent increase over the actual last year's budget. That is about what it worked out to, But there were assessments made ,detailcd assesuments, the same for St. dare's as for the General or Gander or anybody else, and then took into consideratioi i)C other employee benefits.

The other thing that we want to bear in mind is that it was based too not only on last year's budget, but we will have to bear in mind that hospitals also oversperit last year, and we did finally make it up in the final analysis. But there was no hospital that saved a lot of money last year. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Thank you, Sir. Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister. What he said is that, speaking of St. dare's, speaking 5911

November 29, 1982 Tape 2813 PK - 2 MR.

ROBF TS: of the non-predictable or the uncontrollable portion of its expenditures, its non-staff expenditures, and that is all I was asking about at this stage,that they were treated the same as every other hospital in the Province in the sense that the same criteria were applied. 4 Now I would ask the minister if he can assure the House and the Board of St. dare's and the people of this Province that they were given this year in their budget in respect of these non-controllable items an amount equivalent to that which they would be entitled to get in dollars by the applicat:ion of the same criteria to their non-contro]lable expenses as were applied to others throughout the Province?

MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Yes, Mr. Speaker. That is the information I have, and I cannOt see any reason why they would be treated any differently. There is no standard for St. dare's and another standard for the Grace and another for the General. They are treated on the basis of the programme that they present, and it 5912

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2814 SD - 1 MR. HOUSE: is assessed with the same team from the department. And, of course, I have no reason to believe that they are treated any differently. MR. ROBERTS: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Supplementary, the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. ROBERTS: Mr. Speaker, we on this side, like the minister, cannot see any reason why any hospital would have been treated differently than any other hospital.

The minister has told us as far as he is aware,' I think he used those words, May I ask him if he would inform himself and let the House know tomorrow whether there has been any mistake, an arithmetical or other mistake, make in the calculation of the grants to St. dare's - and I am speaking of the non- predictable, the uncontrollable, the non-staff end - would he assure the house that he will check that?

If he checks and tells us there has been no error, that the amount that they are told they are to receive in their budgets is the same as would be the case if it were computed according to the same criteria applied to other budgets in the Province,then I will let that be if he will give us that assurance and we will see what happens tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I think there is some kind of an allegation attached to that particular question and I sort of resent it. The fact is that we have one through this.

We have also indicated to St. dare's in the meeting we had with them on Friday that we would do a total assessment of the situation with them and have that done by January, in accordance with, of course, next year's budget also. But the point of the matter is I have reasonably gone into this with the staff and I am reasonably 5913

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2814 SD - 2 MR. HOUSE: assured that the fact is that there is no difference in the kind of criteria that was used. And if there is anybody who has anything that they can lay on the table to say otherwise , I would like for them to do it. But, you know, the point is we did all hospitals the same, there is no difference in one or the other. Now you have to have, I suppose, variations in various programmesbecause if one hospital does not have the same kind of a programme as another you are going to get some differentiations.

The fact of the matter is you have three or four hospitals in this Province that are close to the same size, they do not have the same programmes but St. Clare's does have the largest budget in that particular category of hospitals. So, Mr. Speaker, I am not able to answer the question. If I knew there was a discrepancy and if I could identify the discrepancy obviously I would have dealt with it, but the point about it is there is no discrepancy in dealing with that hospital over and above others. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): for the Strait of Belle Isle. Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon. member MR.

ROBERTS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The mininter is wrong to think that T am imputing or implvinci anythinri. AN HON. MEMBER: That wou]d not be like you at all. MR. HOUSE: You are leaving the impression. 5914

November 29, 1982 Tape 2815 NM - 1 MR. ROBERTS: We will let his words speak for themselves, lie has g von us his assurances and we will accept his word and sac what develops. Now let me ask one other question arising out of his recent answer, lie has again used the word "assessment", and the minister again is skating around, he says - SOME HON. MEMBERS: No. No. MR. ROBERTS: - he says he is assessing the budget of St. Clare's.

His statement to the House, his prepared statement said, "for the budget year 1983-84' I want the minister to confirm, so there is no doubt, as to whether this assessment is confined only to the 1983-84 year or is there any suggestion that St. dare's may have made available to it some of the funds which, in the board's view, it will need to enable it to continue to operate at desired levels during the current year? In other words, does the assessment affect the 1982-83 budget as approved by St. dare's or is the assessment confined only to 1983-84? MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. Minister of Health. MR. HOUSE: Mr.

Speaker, in the process of dealing with hospitals- therearo number of them, I do not know the exact number of boards - every hospital is reasonably assured that they are getting the worse deal out of all the hospitals. A 1t of criteria is based on ;omething that we do through the Hospital Association and P then individually with the various hospitals. I met with St. Clare'sas I said I believe it was sometime the middle of last week, and they feel that we should go back and look at their situation again. I think we have looked at it. But we did 5915

November 29, 1982 Tape 2815 NM - 2 MR. HOUSE: aqree with them that we would certainly take a reassessment of the situation - and I think we reasonably well know whereof we speak right now - we would do that and basically we are doing that in accordance,I guesswith the preparation for next year's budget. But if we assess it and we see some need for further funds,we will just take to look at it.

But to this date in time we are looking at it for the next year's budget, looking at their actual expenditures and programmes, and we are telling them that they have to live within the 15 or so per cent that they have gotten this year over and above their actual expenditure of last year. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, in the absence of just about all the people who sit in the front benches over there, the Premier and the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) , I have a question for the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall) , the Actinri rrerninr. MR.

STAGG: 'there were you last week? MR. TULK: At .i fisheries conference, that is why we learn something. Right? That is more than I can say for the hon. member for Stephenville. Mr. Sp'aker, my question concerns the tragic, unfortunate, and perhaps even criminal thing that is happening in the Town of Burin, and I speak,of course.of the closure of the processing plant there. Now Fisheries Products has been quoted as saying that they analyzed the t situation 5916

November 29,1982 Tape No. 2816 ah-1 MR.TULK: regards their company they looked at all the alternatives that were available to them. My question for the minister then is, in the search that Fishery ]roducts put on,did they consult the government as to their analysis of the situation and their intentions in the closure of that fish plant arid, if so,when? MR.SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. President of the Council.

MR.MARSHALL: Mr.Speaker, I think as everybody knows , I think it is a matter of common knowledge, Fishery Products Limited's involvement in the Province in the fishjnq industry has be ii a mattei ol d iscuns ion between Fishery Products, the provincial government, the federal government, the Canadian Development Corporation, which is one of the major shareholders in Fishery Products, and at the present time these discussions are still ongoing with respect to them.

We have not been given any specific indication of the visit that was made by an official to Fishery Products in Burin and the intent of his flaking the statement when the statement was act uolly made. I can tell the hon.member that the matter of FLshery Prcxjucts, as indeed the entire fishing industry in this Province, has been a matter of some very high level discussions between the federal and the provincial governments, CDC, Fishery Products and other concerns.

I am sure as the hon. member will realize the government of this Province was very, very concerned 4 with the state of the fishery and as a result of which we were motiveted to appoint the Royal Commission on the Fisheries, under the c'hairmanshi.p of Mr. Paddock, whose report has been received. At the same time,after that report was rendered the federal government appointed the Kirby Task Force which, it is my understanding, is in its final 5917

November 29,1982 Tape No. 2816 ah-2 MR.MARSHALL: processes and its report will be released by the federal government, I would assume or so we have been told, within a matter of weeks. So this whole area of the fisheries in the Province certainly has been a matter of concern to the provincial government, a matter of discussions. Fishery Products general situation in the Province has been a part of that and will continue to be in the next few weeks ahead. MR.TULK: Nr.Speaker. S 5918

November 29, 1982 Tape 2817 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I have to point out to the Acting Premier again that processing - you can talk about the Kirby Task Force all you like - but processing is his responsibility. That has to be pointed out to him again. MR. MARSHALL: Could I please hear that again? MR. TULK: Processing is your responsibility in this Province :;o do not try to cover up by using the Kirby Task Force.

But let me ask him very specifically 4 because he did not answer, my question to him was, when did he become aware that Fishery Products intended to close Burin plant? Not when did he learn that Fishery Products was in trouble, we tried to warn him of that in the last session of the House and were laughed at. But when did he learn that the Burin plant was going to be closed by Fishery Products? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr.

Speaker, it is not my desire - the hon. gentleman injected this matter of control with respect to the fisheries into the question - it is a fact that the federal government controls the harvesting and the marketing of fish and it is a fact that the provincial government controls the processing of fish. This is one of the major concerns that this government has had and it has voiced it from time to time. So there is no attempt on this government's part to indicate that it does not have responsibility with respect to fish processing but, of course, you cannot process fish, p Mr.

Speaker, unless you can catch the fish in the first place and harvest thcm,and there is no point in processing them unless the markets are there. So it is all, Mr. Speaker, in one complete parcel. I do not chose 5919

November 29, 1982 Tape 2817 EC - 2 MR. MARSHALL: to get into this, you know, it is not my intention, as the hon. gentleman seems to impute it, to indicate that one is trying to pass the blame. I can give a guaranLee,an undertaking to the hon. member there opposite that this government is fully aware of its responsibilities, it is fully aware of the position of all companies, of the fragile economy of this world in the present international and national recessionary economy, and whether we have rosponsibility constitution- ally or whether we do not have responsibility, we will not shrink, Mr.

Speaker, from trying to do everything, as we have in our past, within our p(wer, to see that the economy of this Province Ls as buoyant as it possibly can be. So we did not inject that and ] want to make that quite clear. Witi respect to his question, When did we become aware? We have become aware that Fishery Products has had certain difficulties for some period of time and it is a subject of discussion, as I say, with the entities involved. When did we become aware that Fishery Products was going to make an announcement of this? I say rather disappointedly, Mi.

Spedker, that we became aware of this, at least the government ministers here became aware of this, when the announcement was made on the radio, To my knowledge there has been no pre- knowledge given by Fishery Products as to their specific announcement.

But that is not to say - and I would not want this to be distorted - that the government has been unaware, because it certainly has been aware of the fact that Fishery Products has been having problems in various locations in the Province, and we are acting, and acting in the best interests of the people of Nowfoundland,and will continue to do so to sec what we can do do get over 3 5920

November 29, 1982 Tape 2817 EC 3 MR. MARS FU\LL: the problems involved. SOME lION. MJMBERS Pear, hear! MR. [ULK: Mr. Speaker. a 5921

November 29, 1982, Tape 2818, Page 1 -- apb MR._SPEAKER(Russell): Thn hon. the member for Focjo. MR.TULK: Mr. ;peaker, a supplementary. I am amazed, to say the least, that the Acting Premier, the man supposedly behind the power in this Province, has V now admitted that he did not know the Burin situation was going to occur until it was announced, I suppose, in the newspapers or on the radio. But now, Mr. Speaker, let me ask him another question. Now, that he knows that Burin is going to close, let me ask him another very simple question What is the position of the government on that closure? MR.

SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSIIALL: Mr. Speaker, I will answer that question, but I wouldthank the hon. member, if che answer that I am going to give him, he does not twist the answer as he did l-h2previous answer that was given. I mean, this matter, I would think, transcends political considerations. I can only get up and indicate what the government has been doing.

The government has been very concerned with that particular announcement, it has been very concerned with Fishery Products, it has been working very closely with the member for the district, the hon. the member for Burin - Placentie West (Mr. Tobin), who in turn has been working very dilliqont.Lyover the past three or four days, particularly with the mayor of Burin, and, insofar as the member possibly can, is fully apprised of the situation. And we will, in consultation with the member, take whatever action can possiIly be taken in the ci rculns Lances wi t h respect to Burin. We are fully aware, Mr.

Speaker, of the tradition of the fishery on the Burin Peninsula, 5922

November 2818, Page 2 -- apb MR. MARSHALL: and particularly to the community of Burin. And this government is going to do everything it possibly can to see that this tradition is not only continued but is fostered. We will not shirk from that at all. So that is the situation4 But the matter now, the entire matter of Fishery Products is a matter that is the subject, shall I say, of high level discussions between the federal and the provincial governments, involving the Canadian Development Corporation, the Bank of Nova Scotia, and the Monroe family, who have a substantial interest in Fishery Products itself.

So do not try to twist it, and do not try to put weasle words in my mouth, because you are not getting away with it. Mr. Speaker, the fact of the matter is we are aware of problems with respect to Fishery Products and the problems they allege they were having in various places, including Burin.

But as to the specific announcement and the specific action of Fishery Products, and this is a matter of concern to the government I can certainly assure the House,we, as far as I am aware, and I have checked before the House opened, were not given any indication as to the announcement made by Fishery Products, specificallybefore it was made. Announcements of this nature, if there were to be any announcements, and we were going to strive to see that there were not, were to have come only after the result of the in-depth consultations that are presently occurring be ween the (Jove rninent s concerned.

So if the hon. gentleman wants to try to make poliLcal fodder out of a matter like this he can go ahead and do it. But I think he will do it at his peril, because it will be matched up against the decency and the decent views of most of the people in this Province. 5923

November 29, 1982 Tape 2819 PK - 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (RUSSELL): The hon. member for Fogo. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. TULK: Nobodi has to put weasel words in the mouth of the minister, that is for sure. Nobody has to teach him to be nast'. Mr. Speaker, it is reported that Burin is supposedly - phrases are being used about Burin as being the shining ]ight of Fishery Products, It was its first plant in Newfoundland. It is the flagship of Fishery Products, it has good productivity, it makes good economical sense to keep it open. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I would like to ask the minister if in his talks with the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) ,if he can find him, are those statements true? And were those statements shown to be true in Fishery Products' analysis of what is happening in Burin? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, I cannot talk about the shining light of Fishery Products, but T can say that one of the shining lights of the Province of Newfoundland insofar as performance in the fishery has been the community and the town of Burin - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

MARSHALL: - and I have every confidence that will continue in the future. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr. Speaker, insofar as Burin being the shining light of Fishery Products, the onl.v thing I can say,as I say, with respect to Fishery Products is that its activities are the subject of concern and subject of high level concern in the Province itself. 5924

November 29, 1982 Tape 2819 PK - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Now we want to see the fishery obviously continuing in Burin. I see that the hon. gentleman there opposite, you know, refers to the continuation of Pishery Products, but we want the fishery to continue in Burin and we are taking a positive view of it,not a negative view like was taken by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) whose recent recommendation as to the cure of the fishery was to allow all the companies to go bankrupt. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr.

Speaker, one other thing that has been indicated in the news media is that the operation that is now qoijg on in Burin will probably end up going on to Marystown. And it is also indicited that Fishery Products is going to have to do some expansion at Marystown to do the job now being done in t3urin. So let me ask the minister if he knows anything at all about what is happening in Burin? Can he tell us if the expansion that is taking place in Marystown is going to cost Fishery Products more than what it would cast them to do the renovations and repairs that needs to be done at some $10 million?

Mould he tell us if indeed he knows that? MR. SPEAKER: the hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: As 1 have already indicated,the matter of the operations of Fishery Products in this Province, which includes Marystown,is a matter presently of discussion and investigation. I cannot give the situation whether the extension at Marystown is for that purpose or whether there are statements with rspect to all of a sudden it is qoing to cost $10 million to rapair the fish plant at jiurin is factual. Hut I can say this, Mr.

Speaker, that this government will do everything it possibly can to foster the fishery in this Province, particularly on the Burin Peninsula, and will do everything it possibla can to see that the fishery 5925

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2820 SD - 1 MR. MARSHALL: continues on the same way it has in the past both in Burin and in Marystown itself. MR. TULK: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : Supplementary, the hon. membor for Fogo. MR. TULK: Another question, Mr. Sroaker, on the South Coast fishery, and it has to do with a rumor that is flying around, I think that my friend there from Grand Bank (Mr.

Matthews) and myself heard last week and tha is this: That there is a rumor around this Province that the Lake Group of companies are perhaps going to close down the fish plant in Grand Bank and consolidate their efforts in Fortune. I would ask the minister, in view of the fact that he knew aothing about Burin, if he knows anything about whether indeed the fish plant at Grand Bank will also be closed after the provincial government, by the way, putting in $5 million last year and I believe the federal people puttinq in $13 million - MR. NEARY: I (10 not think they tell him anything. MR.

TULK: - or does he know anything about what is happening with the deep sea fishery? I would like to ask him has he heard anything or does he know of any situation developing in Grand Dank whereby it is possible that the Grand Bank plant may close and that effort be consolidated in Fortune as well? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL,: Does the hon. member want an answer to some serious questions at fecting the people of this Province, as I say, in this very Ii agile economy which has to operate within the parameters of an international recession and a national recession or is he just playing little polities? I mean, 'Does the hon. member know or does the minister know? And, 'The minister did not know that. 5926

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2820 SD - 2 MR. MARSHALL: Specifically with respect to the question, Mr. Speaker, I do not think it is responsible in this House for a member to get up and ask a question like Lhat,which is based merely on rumor, which would be calculated to cause uncertainty with respect to another community in this Province.

I can say that I have no knowledge of any such plan.And I can also point out to the hon. member, as he already pointed out,the very fact that this Province put $5 million into the Lake Group last year is indicative of th type of support that we are prepared to give the the fishery in qeneral in this Province,ancl specifically to Grand Bankbecause it was put in, Mr. Speaker, to Grand Bank particularly because of the fact that we wanted Grand Bank to continue together with Fortune. And I would also point out to the hon. gentleman there opposite, Mr.

Speaker, that when it was put in-and so much for their statements that only money is being rolled in to conservative districts .- at that particular time it was put in, Mr. Speaker, the district was represented by a Liberal. Since then they have seen that this government cares for all Newfoundiand,no matter what representation they might have, contrary to what htppened in the mast and they reciprocat ed on April 6th and eturned the present hon. member for Grand Bank to the government sLde. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Heir, hear. MR. TULK: Final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (Russell Final supplementary, the hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, the minister has indicated to us that he knew nothing about what was happening with Fishery Products in Burin, 5927

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2821 MJ - 1 MR. B. TULK: he has indicated to us that he still does not know what has happened to Fishery Products in Burin - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. L. SIMNS: That is not true. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): Order, please! Order, please! MR. TULK: - he has indicated to us that he does not know whether there is anything happening in Grand Hank or not .

Now woul J he stand in this House and just very simply tell us if he will try to get the information for us on thatand would he ;1so go on to tell us of the thirteen major fish plants that are on the South coast and around the South coist of this Province concerned with the deep sea fishery, would he tell us what the options are for those fish plants? How many are presently closed, how many are going to close, and indeed what their furture is generally on the South coast in regards to fish? Would he stand up and tell us that? MR. WM._MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the President of the Council. MR.

MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker, there again, I I!e knows nothing about Grand Bank and he knows nothing about that sad situation in Burin, so one would have thought that he would not even have directed the question to me because he would have no possibilty of getting an answer. MR. TULK: Well, you have got to direct it to somebody, everybody else is gone. !!ow about some sense there. MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr.

Speaker, what I can say to the hon. gentleman is this: If the hon. gentleman - I do not want to inject this into the debate but he forces me to do it - if the hon. geniteman would urge his federal counterparts in Ottawa to see that the Kirby Task Force report p 5928

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2821 MJ - 2 C MR. WM. MARSIIZ\LL: was tabled, was given out to the public so we could get on with the implementation of alleviating The problems which affect the fishery,so we can get on with addressing the recommendations of the our own Royal Commission, Mr. Speaker, so that we can get down and we can see exactly what procedures have to be taken in the east to protect the fishery in this Province, this government would be very grateful indeed. But the fact of the matter, Mr.

Speaker, is that we understand that that report is coming out in the not too distant future and we are looking forward to it eagerly because we insist that it result, if nothing else, that it result in the strenqhtening of what we consider to be the lifeblood of the economy of this Province,which is the fishery of the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador. MR. B. TULK: Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me assure the hon. gentleman that we too will try to get the Kirby Task Force report out as soon as possible. MR. S.

NEARY: They have been neglectin the fishery, that is the trouble. SOME HON. MEMB1RS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. TULK: Let me put this point to him and let me put it to him in view of the fact, as he has already admitted, processing in this Province is his responsibility. Well, suppose the Kirby Task Force does nct say that we are going to keep thirteen fish plants open on the South coast, that there has to be a consolidation or that indeed we are not even going to touch it and the government on that side is left holding the bag, do they have any plans for that?

What will be their reaction to that kind of recommendation 5929

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2821 MJ - 3 MR.B. TULK: by the Kirby Task Force? in other, Mr. Speaker, do they have any plan to keep those plants open on the South coast at all? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. WM. MARSHALL: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Russell): The hon. the President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL; Mr. Speaker, now imagine that. I have admitted that processing is the responsibility of the provincial government. Mr. Speaker, I not only admit that but I admit that processing is the responsibility of the Nova Scotian government and New Brunswick and British Columbia as well, Mr. Speaker. It 5930

November 29, 1982 Tape 2822 NM - 1 MR. MARSHALL: is a provincial responsiblity and,yes, Mr. Speaker, that is an admission. Now with respect to his gucs Lion, which is a hypothetical one, about the thirteen plants on the South Coasts, Mr. Speaker, we have to await the deliberations of that report. But I can guarantee the hon. gentleman this, that this government will do everything that is possible, everything within its power, to see that all of these fish plants on the South Coast are operational and continue in operation. And I trust, Mr.

Speaker, that when that report comes out that the hon. gentleman will do everything he can to see that they are operational. And we will do everythinq possible to urge the federal oovernment - He says, 'What about if the federal government does not accept any responsiblity to do anything for the thirteen plants?" I would hope that he, with the government, would not accept this determination by the federal government and he would enlist both their aid and the aid of the member for Burin-St. George's, in respective of it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. Leader of the Opposition.

This will be the final question for the Question Period. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is too bad because I could get the hon. gentleman fired up another little bit. In view of the fact that the European Economic Council Ministers have said that on Friday they will not go for the ban on seal products in Europe, does not the hon. member think that he should immediately send out an SOS, find out what city in Europe the Premier and the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Mor(jan) are in, and get him back in this Province and try and deal with the crisis in the forest industry and in the fishing industry in this Province? 5931

November 29, 1982 Tape 2822 NM - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Russell) : The hon. President of the Council. MR. MARSHALL: This forms the text of a telegram that the hon. gentleman sent to the Premier this morning. And the Premier, as is normal - MR. ROBERTS: And it came back, addressee unknown. MR. MARSHALL: - responded to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) very clearly, and I can just quote the telegram in answer, "This is to acknowledge your telegram of November 29th. It is not at all clear what the Council of Ministers for the EEC will do on Friday of this week.

It is critical that Canada, and Newfoundland in particular, forcibly put forward its position on the seal fishery off our coast to all member states. The matter of the overall fishery is being handled by both governments at the highest level, including the problems of Fishery Products Limited. The matter of Corner Brook is being dealt with at the highest level both by my ministers in Newfoundland and by myself in meetings I have held in London. Therefore I can only conclude that given everything is being done that can be done, your telegram to me is motivated to try and serve your own political ends." SOME HON.

MEMBERS: Hear, heart MR. MARSHALL: Now, Mr. Speaker, having responded to that, as far as the SOS goes, I can tell the hon. gentleman that both myself and other ministers of this government are in daily contact with the Premier. I will be in contact with him myself before the evening is out. And secondly, Mr. Speaker, with respect to the business that the hon. qentleman is trying to make about the Premier and the Minister of 5932

November 29, 1982 Tape 2822 NM - 3 MR.MARSHALL: Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) attending to protect the seal fishery in Newioundland1l should point out to him that these meetinqs were arranged 5933

November 29,1982 Tape No. 2823 ah-1 MR. MARSHALL: through the Department of External Affairs, they have been arranged with various European governments. If the Premier did not keep the engagements that were made I cannot conceive of anything that would be more harmful to the seal fishery in this Province, if the Premier, having had it arranged,did not turn up to the meetings themselves. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.MARSHALL: I would also point out that he is in the company of the Hon. Mr.

Dc Bane.And the Leader of the Opposition(Mr.Neary) does not think, also in his telegram, that he should be over there as well. But ,Mr.Spcaker, we are glad that this is an indication of co-operation betwecn the federal and the provincial governments. We are glad and proud that the I'remier and the Minister of Fisheries (Mr.Morgari) are over there trying to prevent this very serious ban on the seal fishery.And it is not,as the hon. gentleman has attempted to represent, absolutely certain that the Council. of ministers of the EEC will not come to an agreement on the ban, Mr.Speaker.

We hope it is likely and if it is likely I can say that it will be because of the efforts made by the Premier and the Minister of Fisheries - SOME HON.MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. MARSHALL: - and the federal government and this will redound to the benefit of the people of Newfoundland and perhps therefore to the disappointment of the Opposition. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.SPEAKER (Russell) : Order, pleaSe! The time for Question Period 5934

NOVEMBER 29,1982 nape No. 2823 ah-2 MR.SPEAKER (Russell) : has expired. NOTICES or' MOTION MR.SPEAKER: The him. Minister of Justice, MR. OTTENHEIMER: I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill entitled, 'An Act To Amend The CriminaL Injuries Compensation Act.' ORDERS OF THE DAY MR.MARSIIALL: Motion 2 Bill No. 68 On mo :ion, that the house resolve itself into Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions relating to ihe guaranteeing of certain loans under the Local Authority duarantee Act, 1957, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE MR.

CHAIRMAN (AYLWARD): Order, p1ease RESOLUTION "That it is expedient to bring in a measure further to amend The Local Authority Guarantee Act, 1957, to provide for the guarantee of the repayment of loins made to, and the advance of loans to certain Local Authorties." On motion, resolution carried. A bill, "An Act To Amend The Local Authority Guarantee Act, 1957." (Dill No. 68). Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment,carried. 5935

November 29, 1982 Tape 2824 EC - 1 MR. MARSHALL: Motion 3, Bill No. 72. "That it is expedient to bring in a measure to amend The Tobacco Tax Act, 1978." MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Shall the resolution carry? DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, in the statement made on the 18th of the month, it was indicated that the tobacco tax would be increased hy fifteen cents on a package of twenty cigaiettos effective immediately and a proportionate amount on cigars and tobacco. Mr.

Chairman, this resolution calls for the introducLion of a bill to give effect to that announcement and .t states it in clear terms, I think. I believe that is all I need to say on it. The intention is that this bill will give effect to those tax increases as of one minute after midnight on the 19th of this month. I move the resolution. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, this is a money bill, of course, which enables members on either side of the House to make wide-ianging remarks about these increases in taxes that have been announced by the hon. gentleman. We have not seen any sign of the bill to increase the retail sales tax yet. DR. COLLINS: Do you not have Bill No. 73? MR. NEARY: I am just looking for it here but I do not see it. MR. CHAIRMAN: Bill No. 73 has been distributed. MR. HODDER: Some have been distributed today. 5936

November 29, 1982 Tape 2824 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: They were just distributed today. Well, maybe it would be more appropriate for me to save some of the remarks that I am going to make for that particular bill. Nevertheless, having said :1: think we (10 have to take into consideration that when you do increase the tax on tobacco products, on cigarettes and on beer and on liquor, that you are increasing a tax on the ordinry people. '0 5937

November 29, 1982, "ape 2825, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: Now, there are people who will argue that it might be better if people did not smoke at all. I think that is one of the arguments that I have heard, that you can put all the taxes you want on tobacco products, cigarettes and tobacco, and liquor and beer and so forth, and that it will not affect the ordinary people. Well, I do not accept that, Mr. Chairman. Because we always heard the argument in this House, especially by Mr.

Ank Murphy when he was here, that beer was the poor man's champagne, it was one of the few pleasures that people had left, to enjoy a bottle of beer. So I think the point I am making is that although it may seem indefensible to argue against an increase in the tobacco tax, or tax on liquor or beer, that it is not going to hurt the ordinary person, I think that if we think that we are wrong, that it is going to hurt the ordinary person, it is going to hurt the poor old feDow who likes his little chew of tobacco, and it is going to impose a hardship on people who like a smoke.

Now, I do not think it is going to be as drastic as the exemption of the clothing from retail sales tax - excuse me, the other way around, to include it in the retail sales tax. I do not think it is going to be as harmful as the one cent that was put on the retail sales tax, but it does create a bit of an inconvenience and a bit of a hardship, Mr. Chairman. Any kind of a tax that is put on ordinary people is bound to create a bit of a hardship. Mr.

Chairman, as this is a money bill, we are asking for an increase in taxes, it might be a good time to remind the House and to remind the people of this Province - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR._NEARY: If we could have a little silence, Mr. Chairman. I can hardly hear myself with the ructions 5938

November 29, 1982, Tape 2825, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: that is going on outside the government common room. Eithcr ask the government members to step inside their common room or close the door to the House of Assembly. Mr. hairman, it might be a good time to remind people of the public debt of this Province. The public debt is horrendous. We have a public debt in this Province oC over $3 billion, $3,200,000, 001. 4 5939

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2826 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: or $3.2 billion at the end of this fiscal year. And I would think before we see a new budget brought down in this House that we are going to see that increase drastically. I cannot see any way the government can balance its books between now and the time the next budget comes down. I would say that there will be a deficit in current account.

It would seem to me tht the moves that the government have made will have a reverse effect, that they will backfire on the government, that the government will not get the revenue that it anticipates between now and the end of the fiscal year. Anybody who has don( any shopping in the last week or so will notice that the stores are practically empty in the shopping malls. SOME HON. MEMPERS: What! MR. NEARY: The stores are empty, Mr. Chairman. And I would think that as soon as the Christmas rush is over, Mr.

Chairman, people have to do a certain amount of buying this time of year but as soon as the Christmas shopping is over, as soon as the government has collected its pound of flesh off Santa Claus and off the Christmas shopping that there will be a tremendous drop off in buying. There will be a tremendous slump after Christmas. And I think the whole thing will backfire on the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) and on the government. And, Mr.

Chairman, I asked the minister the other day to teLl the House what will happen if this thing does backfire, if there is a reverse affect and the government does not get the revenue that it anticipates between now and the end of the fiscal year, what the consequences will be in this Province. And I think the minister just shrugged and said, 'Well, sobeit, we will just have to go on borrowing, we will have to borrow the money'. Mr. Chairman, I do not know if the hon. gentleman realized what he was saying or not but if we go into the new fiscal year, if we end up this fiscal year with a deficit and we have 5940

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2826 SD - 2 4 MR. NEARY: to go into a new fiscal year with a deficit in current account I do not think I have to Loll hon. members of this House the consequences of that kind of a situation. That means, Mr. Chairman, we would be bankrupt. Mr. Chairman, we would be bankrupt if that is the situation. And now this may be a jood opportunity while we are debating this money bill for the hon. Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) to try to straighten us out on a few matters. 591

November 29, 1982 Tape 2827 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: it would seeiu,ancl the experts are predicting this, even big Tories, stron Tories all over the Province are saying you did the wrong thing, it is going to backfire. I heard one of the biggest l'.Cs in Labrador West on the CBC last week saying that the commerical heating fuel tax is going to cause unemployment. MR. COLLINS: Was that Mel Woodward? MR. NEARY: No, Mr. Woodward is not in Labrador West. MR. WARREN: And he is not a Tory. MR. NEARY: and he is not: a Tory.

I said one of the biggest Tories in Labrador West predicted that the heating fuel tax will backfire, that it will cause layoffs MR. STAGG: Relevancy, Mr. Chairman? MR. NEARY: Yes we are on a money bill, Mr. Chairman - it will cause layoffs and it will cause businesses to go bankrupt, it will force small business to close up or go bankrupt. And I think that gentleman who made that statement, that councillor in Labrador City.is right, especially in areas like Labrador where you have long severe Winters, long, hard,cold Winters in Labrador, and the heating fuel the most expensive in the Province.

And right at the moment small businesoes in Labrador West are struggling, they are just hanging on by their fingernails, It is so bad down there that two branches of the Bank of Montreal, the Government House Leader's (Mr. Marshall) the bank that the hon. gentleman represents,are closing branches in Labrtdor City and in Wabush. We have not heard any comments from the qorornment side, especially from the Government House Leader. I was tempted today and Friday to ask him a few questions; the only thing is he might get up and accuse me of being personal and doing it for political gain.

The Premier of this Province does not do anything for political gain, Mr. Speaker, especbilly with regard to the off shore. 592

November 29, 1982 Tape 2827 PK - 2 MR. NEARY: I was tempted to ask the hon. gentleman about the two branches of the Bank of Montreal closing down. S It 5943

November 29, 1982 Tape 2828 NM - 1 MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman no doubt would dance a jig and get nasty and show himself for what he is, the ultimate in this Province in nastiness, and in this House. But we want straight answers, Mr. Chairman. We do not want nastiness. We do not want nastiness. We do not want rudeness. We do not want lectures. We do not want to be ridiculed. The people do not want to switch on their TV and see the King of Nastiness in Newfound Jand. They do not want to see that. They kant answers. They want to find out what the government is doing about these things.

And so here we have two banks closing down, the Bank of Montreal, in Western Labrador, and not a comment from the government side of the House yet. You would expect the Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) , who represents the Bank of Montreal, to say, "This is the time that I can show the people of this Province that I am riot in a conflict of interest situation and I am going to give it to that bank even though my law firm is getting their retainer. I am going to give it to them for closing down two branches in Labrador West." But no, Mr. Chairman, no. We did not hear any of that.

He just sits there like the four-eyed beetle, with a silly grin on his face, and all he does is just be nasty about things. I wish the hon. gentleman would be pleasant for a change instead of being nasty. Surely the hon. gentleman must have the odd good clay, He cannot be nasty every day. Mr. Chairman, so it would be interesting to hear what the Government House Leader has to say about these two bankn closing down in Labrador West, closing down as a result of a drastic slump in the economy in Labrador West, and small business just hanging on and just barely able to cope with the situation in Labrador West.

I would like to hear 59 4

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2829 MJ - 1 MR. S. NEARY: the hon. the Government House Leader (Mr. Wm. Marshall) get up and lambaste and give it to the Bank of Montreal for closing down by pulling the carpet out from under the people in Labrador City and Wabush, but no, Mr. Chairman, we will not hear that. I guarantee you that we will not hear that from the other side of the House. And perhaps the hon. gentleman can tell us whether he was advised by the Bank of Montreal, his client, before they decided to close down two branches in Labrador West. But what I am saying, the point I am making, Mr.

Chairman, is this: That more small business and big business is going to be forced to close not only in Labrador West but throughout this whole Province because of regressive taxes like the one that was put on heating fuel, the commercial heating fuel tax that was introduced by this administration. Mr. Chairman, hon. gentleman can poke all the fun they want and they can laugh and sneer all they want, the people of this Province are getting kind of tired of that way of governing the Province and they want to see something positive for a change. They want to hear something constructive from the administration.

They want to hear a bit of good news. They wantto hear what the government is doing about the problems of the fishery and the problems of the forest industries in this Province. MR. J. DINN: No one is more guilty of conflict of interest than you are. WR. B. TULK: Take a flick at him and keep him quiet. MR._NEARY: No, if anybody knows about conflict of interest apart from the Government House Leader (Mr. Wm. Marshall) it is the hen, gentleman, the last 5945

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2829 MJ - 2 MR. S. NEARY: Lime he was here. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! The hon. member time has elapsed. MR. NEARY. t will carry on afterwards. MR.F. STAGG: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. the member for Stephenville. MR. STAGG: Mr. Chairman, what we just saw here in the attempted debate by the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. S. Neary) was an exercise in irrelevance. He has nothing to say about this bill but he realizes or he thinks he realizes that he must get up and make some token efforts at Opposition occasionaly. Mr.

Chairman, the totality of his comments were irrelevant and he probably could have been brought to order on them. Now, we are talking about a bill that relates to tobacco tax and I would like to make some general commentary with regard to tobacco and smoking and so on . As one of those who used to smoke at one time, I am probably more Catholic than the Pope on the subject and so on and all of these things that you can attribute to people who are reformed, whatever. But I gave up smoking eleven years ago and I have not looked back since and I I know that I am much better off for it.

I look back in my own area, the Bay St. George areaor the Stephenville area, to the days of the ten cent a pack cigarettes on the American base. Even though it was illegal to take them out for civilian consumption, a suprising number of them came out into our area and an awfull lot of people are today regretting the fact that they took advantage of what seemed to be an irresistible offer, 5946

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2830 SD - 1 MR. STAGG: cigarettes in these fine packages - ten cents a pack. I recall, Mr. Chairman, coming back here to university in 1962, after Christmas, 1962, and bringing back with meI think it was about eight cartons of Lucky Strikes. used to smoke Lucky Strikes in those days and I guarantee you you had to be a real he-man to smoke Lucky Strikes. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. STAGG: I discovered at the bowling alleys of Memorial University several other he-men.. One the most notable spongers in those days is the present member for Mount Scio (Mr.

Barry) who - as a matter of fact,since I got the cigarettes for very little he decided that we owned them and consequently my seven cartons of cigarettes only lasted about three weeks. And I guess really,that is one of the problems that occurs when you get something for very little, consumption picks up conspicuously. I know consumption of my cigarettes picked up conspicuously and I would say the member for Mount Scio owes me, if I still smoked, about four cartons of cigarettes.

The same thing goes for anything that is available in copious amounts for low costs You know, the day of the $1.50 forty ouncer for instance, the forty ouncer you could get off the American bases through various means, most of them illegal, these days fortunately are behind us, when you no longer get forty ouncers for $1.50 or whatever. But that has gone through the system and there are a lot of alcoholics in Newfoundland today who are a result of the availability of cheap booze back in the days of the American base. MR. BUTT: You are making a good point. MR.

STAGG: So one of the ways of regulating this kind of activity is to make ii more expensive. And certainly if anyone is going to be an alcoho!ic in Newfoundland today, you sure have to have a considerable bank account or a relatively 59L.7

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2830 SD - 2 MR. STAGG: high inome to accommodate a habit of that kind. And really that is something we should not be proud of,because alcoholism and lung disease - cancer and attendant respiratory problems that result in smoking - if you are a smoker and a drinker and you are overweight in addition to that, well, really, you know, you have a big problem. I see somebody just walked behind the Sp eakers s Chair there blowing smoke at me. So I just want to deal with some of the commentary that knowledgeable people have had about cigarette smoking, and it is relevant, Mr.

Chairman, in that we are raising the tax and I think that that will result, marginally, in less consumption of cigarettes and that will mean that the Minister of Health (Mr. House) will not have as many people in the hospitals and so on and we will be able to spend money on things that are far more relevant and more useful. 5946

November 29, 1982 Tspe 2831 P1K - 1 MR. STAGG: I lived in a home with a man who smoked for fifty-five years. My father smoked very considerably, and he died the year bcfoee last, larqely as a result of having been an inveterate smoker, He admitted it right up to the end He did not have lthng cancer,but he had respiratory illnesses and the usual problems of the arteries constricting and the blood flow to the extremities becomes a problem, and so on. So my father died largely as a result of his being a heavy smoker. And for the last seven or eight years of his life he suffered immeasurably because of that.

I used to bring it up to him, I would say, 'Fathcr,you should quit smoking. He would say, 'Fred, boy, or son as he used to call me, he said, 'It is not the cigarettes I am smoking now that is the problem, it is the cigarettes I smoked fifty years ago. Give me another cigarette'. lie freely acknowledged that smoking was a considerable problem. 1\ man robust and vigorous and healthy and stroncj right up until he was about fifty-five years of age, and then there was a rapid and constant deterioration in his health, I would say , as a result of the age factor, but even more importantly as a result of smoking.

So anybody out there who thinks that smoking does not have a dilatorious effect on your health is living in a fool's paradise. There are always the exceptions, of course, the grandfather who at ninety-five years old still has his smoke and that sort of thing, there are certain people whose chemical makeup is resistant to nicotine and so on, but the vast majority of people who smoke heavily will find that It their physical abilities go into rapid decline at a relatiely early age.

One of the train dangers and the rapid rise in the incidents of lung cancer among females is something that needs to be taken into consideration. There are articles being written on it now. I will quote now from an editorial, 5949

November 29, 1982 Tape 2831 PK - 2 MR. STAGG: I am not sure which newspaper it was in, but I believe it was in one of the health magazines. It says, "A survey of 563,000 women by the American Cancer Society reveals that women who smoke more than a pack a day have a death rate from haart disease and lung cancer twice that of non-smokers. And heavy women smokers also have a higher mortality rate from emphysema, cirrhosis of the liver, cancer of the mouth, larynx, esophaqus and pancreas. Now these are all of the classic diseases that. the Minister of Health (Mr.

House) and all of these hospitals and so on have to deal with as a result of people's gratuitously killing themselves. So we are now in the position can we go into prohibition? Obviously prohibition is the sort of thing that really just does not work. They had prohibition 5950 t

November 29, 1982 Tape 2832 NM - 1 MR. STAGG: in the United States in the 1930s, and to some extent, in parts of Canada, and that just did not work, it just gave rise to the criminal clurnent. So this tax is a further requtation of a habit that has its roots in antiquity. The smokers qo back a long time. So it is socially un- acceptable for us to prohibit it, but this kind of regulation is healthy, Mr. Chairman, and I am all for it. The rise in tax ,itself,I think is very small, 15 cents I believe on a package of 20 cigarettes, so it is a mere drop in the bucket.

But it does give us the opportunity in this House of Assembly to bring up some of these points which I think are relevant, I see the Chairman getting a little bit fidgety there so I guess my time has expired. I may have another go at it, Mr. Chairman, but to all my colleagues who have been out there in the corridors blowing smoke at me and turning up their noses, well,I think that I will be running the mile, or whatever physical activity is necessary at age 60, when hon. gentlemen will be either in their wheelchairs or six feet under. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR.

ChAIRMAN (Aylward): The hon. member for Port au Port. MR. ILODDER: I just wanted to ask a few questions of the minister or pose my remarks as a few questions, But to preface my remarks I would like to associate myself with the member who spoke last. Regarding cigarettes I have always been one, even though I smoke, who would like, because I have such a weak will, would like the government to ban them totally. But I might say that 5951

November 29, 1982 Tape 2832 NM - 2 MR. HODDER: I was listening to the hon. member speaking and I do remember one time, Mr. Chairman, when I shared an apartment with the hon. gentleman, that he fell asleep with a cigarette in his hand and somewhere around one in the morning I pulled him from the chesterfield and somewhere around - MR. NEARY: You saved his life? MR. HODDER. - somewhere around two in the morning - MR. NEARY: You actually saved his life? MR.

HODDER: - somewhere about two o'clock in the morning the firemen walked into the bedroom with their axes and their helmets, I have always heard, it is a Chinese proverb, that once you save a person's life you are responsible for him forever after. However, Mr. Chairman, I do not know if I can follow the tenet of that proverb or nrt. MR. DAWE: The hon. member tells a story about that apartment too. MR. HODDER: It was back in the sixties, before politics, Mr. Chairman.

No, the question I have about the tobacco tax itself is that travelling across Canada, and even in New York City, and in the Northwest Territories, cigarettes are more expensive in Newfoundland than they are in any of those areas. I do not think there is a province in Canada now that I know of that has cigarettes that are more expensive. The question I had for the minister concerns the smuggling of cigarettes across provincial 6orders1because I understand 5952

November 29, 1982 Tape 2832 NM - 3 MR. HODDER: that Halifax, which would be the closest province, and where, perhaps, we do an awful lot of trade both by sea and air, and there are an awful lot of visitors, if someone wanted to bring in illegal etqarettes, it would be the place where they would most likely go. U 5953

November 29,1982 Tape No. 2833 ah-1 MR. HODDER: I understand that a package of cigarettes in Nova Scotia is somewhere about, at present prices, eighty-five cents a pack cheaper and this would make it very , very profitable for - and you can buy them at discounts as wellso that if you take the highest price charged in Newfoundland for a package of cigarettes and the lowest price for which you could buy them in Nova Scotia,it would make it very, very worthwhile for people to make an illegal profit. I have heard stories. I understand that there is a trade between Fermont, Quebe, and Labrador City in cigarettes.

I do know that if you travel to a convention or if you are on the Mainland at any time now, smokers are likely to purchase an extra carton or two of cigarettes to bring back with them in their suitcases. My question is at what point does the tax on cigarettes start to negate itsel I ? At what point is it no longer profitable to raise the taxes on cigarettes?

I would ask the minister as well, if he is listening,or when he returns,whether there have been any studies done by the Province to determine these matters or whether the l'rovince has any idea as to the amount of say, people who personally travel to the Mainland ? There are a lot of people who fly around these days and travel to conventions and conferences on the Mainlandand that is not only confined to the business community, but people travel, to look for work and all that sort of thing. So every

part cI society is travelling these days. At what point does the one or two cartons of cigarettes which are brought back in a suitcase start to cut into the taxes which the government imposes? I do not know if the minister was listening outsidel was asking him some questions regarding 5954

November 29,1982 Tape No. 2833 ah-2 MR.fIODDER: the tobacco tax and I will just summarize them for him. At what pointwhen cigarettes are eighty-five to ninety cents a pack,depending on the province you are in, at wJiat point do we start to lose revenue by increasinq taxes? Because there is both a personal trade and - "ou know, one hears all the time that cigarettes are coming illegally into the Province, and I would ask the minister what he is doing to stop this ? Does he have any idea what the extent of this might be, and whether, indeed,an increased tax is really bringing revenues to the Province?

MR.CiIAIRMAN (Aylward) Shall the resolution carry? DR.COLLINS: Mr. Speaker. MR.CHAIRMAN: The hon. Minister of Finance. DR.COLLINS: A few points, very briefly. The hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary) , I think, raised a question that by increasing taxes - he was not, think,referring specifically to the tobacco tax, but he spoke in regard to the bill, that we were going to have what he called a reverse effect. In other words,I presume he meant by that that we would have less revenues. I do not think [ 5955

November 29, 1982, Tape 2834, Page 1 -- apb DR. QJ S. anyone expects if you increase taxes that your revenues will decrease. There may be some topping off after a certain point in time in the amount of sales, depending on the level of tax, but I think you would have to go very, very far before you would actually have lesser revenues because of a tax increase. And if that is what the hon. the Leader of the Opposttion(Mr.

Neary) meant, i can reassure him in all possible terms, we have never seen any effect like that in any of the tax increases that have been brought into effect in this Province for the last ten years. There has never been a decrease in revenues because of a tax increase. The hon. the member for Port au Port(Mr. Ilodder), I think, brought up a point which was related to that in regard to tobacco tax use, and he wondered if there was not going to be,not a reverse effect, but some decline in the amount that one might have gotten if you had based it just on the percentage.

In other words, if you have a certain amount of tax, say at 11 per cent, if you increased it to 12 per cent,would you get a whole 1 per cent more or would it be somewhat less than that: Well, with regard to tobacco I do not think there has been any evidence of that. The tobacco sales have held up quite remarkably, as a matter of fact. There has not been any evidenoe, although, as the hon. the member for Stephenville(Nr. Stagq) said, perhaps that might be a desired effect, if there was some lesser use of tobacco products. Because of the level of taxation, thaL might be desirable from a health point of view.

But all I can state is that there has been no evidence whatever of that, the tobacco sales seem to have held up quite remarkably well. 5956

November 29, 1982, Tape 2834, Page 2 -- apb DR. COLLINS: The hon. the member for Port au Port(Mr. Hodder) also approached the question of smuggling. There is the temptition where there is a marked disparity in the cost of a product from one Province to another, there is always that risk of smuggling, and have absolutely no doubt that smuggling is going on and has gone on and likely will continue to go on. The problem is trying to get a handle on how much. Because by the very nature of the activity there is not any hard information around.

We suspect that there is an increase in smuggling and we are bringing in extra measures to try to handle that. It would not be in the best interest of anyone to lay out the exact measures we are putting into effect, because that would probably help the criminal rather than the law enforcement agencies. But I can assure the hon. member that we are aware of the problem, or the potentiol problem, we are bringing into effect specific measuren to try to combat it.

Another point that was raised there was the question of small business bankruptcies. think hon. members are oware that in all jurisdictions in Canada, and, indeed, throughout the Western world, there has been an increase in the number of bankruptcies. But I do not feel that they 'are specifically related to levels of taxation. You know, the graphs just do not seem to show that, the qraphs seem to show that they are more related to the levol of economic activity around the place. Interestingly enough, 59Ei7

November 29, 1982 Tape 2835 EC - 1 we had some meetings only last Friday with the Chamber of Commerce for Corner Brook and those individuals, where you would expect they would be facing particular difficulty, those individuals said that business is very qxxl out there, and this is in the small business sector, business is IV very good out there.

I mean, no one likes taxation and certainly no one likes increased taxation but with regard to the effects of that taxation this is the question that was raised - narticular individuals said that their business has been quite (100(1 and they could not see any effects at this time. Now, another point, I think, that is rth bearing in mind is that it was suggested that if we drop retail sales tax sharply, our economic difficulties would ameliorate very sharply. You know, that just does not hold up.

I think we have to remember that the retail part of our economy, look at our gross provincial product - retail sales activity comprises only about 12 per cent of it and, of course, much of buying and selling at the retail level is non-discretionary with regard to essential itenisor certainly desirable items, so that there will be a good part of that 12 per cent of our economy related to retail sales held up no matter what happens. So if we brought in some measures to help out that part of our economy it would be only a very small sector.

Our economy is much more related to things like the fisheries and mining and forest products and so on and so forth that are not really directly related to retail sales Lax levels and not available for us to bring in some stimulatory measures for. They are related more to sales in the United States and sales on the internationnl market and so on. 5958

November 29, 1982 Tape 2835 EC - 2 DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) brought up the oint about the Bank of Montreal and its branches in jbrador West. We are aware of their desires there. Bc have had meetings with them and I do not think that the whole question is settled yet. This is not a decision that we can directly have any influence on because the Bank of Montreal, of course, is a private concern and we can only bring forward to them our wishes and our desires.

We have had discussions with them, and I think that they are cognizant of our concerns and they have not to this date, I do not think, copper fastened their decision, at least we hope so, and we likely will be having further conversations with them in the near future. I move this resolution. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMI\N (Aylward) : The hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. IIISCOCK: Mr.Chairman, I just want to speak on this rather briefly. With regard to the raising of taxes and the cutbacks in some of the services, one of the things II ]959

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2836 SD - 1 MR. HISCOCK: I was rather surprised in that there is going to be cut back in the St. John's School for Boys. There are a staff of twenty-nine people who will have to be absorbed into the present Public Service - and * there are sixteen boys in this home. Of course, the St. John's School for Boys is a home that most people would associate with juvenile delinquents.

You could use other names, but basically they have been problem children in school, problem children at home and the courts have made them wards of the Province and the Province is trying to, with an intense help, and that is the reason why there are so many staff members there, get them, I suppose, into rehabilitative programmes or whatever, into the norm of society again so that they can go back into their homes and their schoolu, etc. And I find it rather upsetting that in the hard economic times we have the first things you see cut are the social programmes. Here we are closing down the St.

John's School for Boys, here we are building five different prisons around the Province and yet we continue with Mount Scio house. And we will, only save $100,000 with regard to the St. John's School for Boys, by phasing that out. The minister has not yet said what is going to happen to that staff of twenty-nine because the boys will be moved probably to Pleasantville or to Whitbourno, there is enough stuff there to accommodate, in those two other homes, the ten or twenty extra boys. They will not have to hire extra staff, because the staff is already there.

So this 12 per cent tax that is going on, the retail sales tax, is not going to help there. And I would like to know from the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) are we going to sell the home? If we are, what is the value of the home, the St. John's School for Boys? And the other thing is what is the present value of 5960

November 29, 182 Tape No. 2836 SD - 2 e MR.. IIISCOCK: Mount Scio House? And how can the Premier of this Province actually say that he is compassionate man when he is living in a house that is provided by the people, the only Premier in Canada, and here he is putting the boys out on the street. And not only that, but with the economic times there is going to be an increase in crime and in vandalism. They had a conference, of all plices, in Nain on vandalism.

It is on the rise and, yet, instead of trying to help our younger people, instead of coming up with more recreational facilities, instead of coming up with ways of helping them, what are we suggesting? We are getting suggestions that you have curfews in the cily, we are getting suggestions to close the homes down. 1, for one, Mr. Chairman, think that our younger people who have had problems, whether they are family problems, whether they are financial problems or lack of discipline in the home, or other reasons for them finding themselves in these homes, we, U 5961

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2837 MJ - MR. E. HISCOCK: as a socieLy, should be helping them. But here we are putting them together in larger units where they are not able to get the special attention that they need. I hope that the Minister of Public Works (Mr. 11. Young) will be able to say to this House that Mount Scio house is evaluated and that it is going to be put up for sale and the money that we are going to saVe from that sale will keep the St. John's School for Boys open.

We are in rough economic times and with regard to the other part, the youth-and I would just like to continue on with that it is with regard to Grade XII. I spoke out against Grade Xfl, not that I am really agulnst it as such T dO think that we should have something like in Quebec, as I have said, more of a CEGET system where you have tilde schcls and first year university used for Grade XII and have Lhe senior age groups of sixteen, seventeen and eighteen in that mature environment instead of having them in the schoo].s from kindergarten to Grade XTJ. But they deciled to go on with regard to Grade XII and, Mr.

ChLiirIIian, we are going to find out with the deepening recession in this Province and with the cutbacks in the St.

John's School for Boys, closing down some of the clinics and also cutbacks in hospital care, we are going to find out that we are not going to be able to build those classrooms that are needed for next year and that the government should realize now that they made a mistake with regard to Grade XII and not phase-in Grade XII next year. if they are ping to continue phasing in Grade XII next year, then they have to put in massive anounts of money to buy the equipment that is nec led; the labs, the industrial arts and other things, otherwise, Mr. Chairman, 5962

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2837 MJ - 2 4 MR. E. IIISCOCK: are going to have an inferior ouality of education.and what the Premier should do - md I hope we wii have a word from the Minister of Public Vorks (Mr. II. Young) on this that he will announce the Irceze on bui]ding the new Confederation Building Complex and use that money to build classroom space that is needed for Grade XII,or use that money to open up the fish plant in I3urin. I am not against the idea of construction jobs but they are temporary jobs and what we need, Mr. Chairman, now are nrmanent jobs in ti 5963

November 29, 1982 Tape 2838 PR - 1 MR. HISCOCK: the resource sector and we are not getting them. So, Mr. Chairman, if this government took the bull by the horns the government would have nil freezes; freezes on government spending with regard to capital and not build the hospitals and the other things that are needed at this time, but put a freeze on them for a couple of years and put the money, Mr. Chairman, into the resource sector and also put it into building extra classrooms which are needed, not building Arts and Culture Centres or $400,000 for Sir Humphrey Gilbert, Mr. Chairman, or other things.

Of course the people in Clarenville will be ipset by having to wait another year, but the people in Burin - I will tell you that if the people down on the Burin Peninsula have a decision to make, a delay in that hospital or the opening up of the plant in Burin, I know what the people on the I3urin Peninsula are going to say. And the people down in Clarenville, if it comes to construction jobs, what they are going to do? MR. TOJ3IN: What is the answer to that one? MR.

HISCOCK: The answer to it is where we are very, very badly off economically, put a freeze on that, take the money that we would normally spend and put it into the resource sector. If we do not: put it into the resource sector, then put it into Grade XII. Because this government has created this problem with Grade XII and I hope they will have the ability to realize not only next year but this year that they are makincj a iAstake, and they will either postpone the implementation of Grade XII or give the school boards the money that they actually need, Mr. Chairman. MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible) money to school boards.

MR. HISCOCK: Yes, if you are going to continue with Grade XII, because all of the Grade XI students are going to be kept in the schools next year. 5964

November 29, 1982 Tape 2838 P1K - 2 MR. IIISCOCK: You have made the decision. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Chairman, with regard to 4 these taxes, if the taxes are even going up to 15 per cent r 20 per cent, retail sales tax, Mr. Chairman, if that money 4 was collected and put into the resource sector to produce jobs nobody wou].d mind paying twelve cents on clothing or on footwear or other things, or the three dollar meal being done away with. Nobody wouLd mind. But when this money is taken, Mr.

Chairman, and is put into elements of just capital and paying our bills, that is what the people in this Province are against. And as I said, Mr. Chairman, this government has made the decision to raise taxes, but they have to take the bull by the horn and level with our people and say, Look, sure you want this and sure you want that, but we are going to put a hold on it and we are going to take this money. Look at the unemployment of our youth of this Province. II 965

November 29, 1982, Tape 2839, Page 1 -- apb MR. HISCOCK: What is this government doing for the youth of this Province? Nothinq Not one iota, zero, and we have the highest unempLoyment amoung our youth and university students. Are they cutting back on the university fees so that they can go to university? Or trade school? Are they raising the amount of money going to the students? No. MR. CHAIRMAN(ylward): Order, phase! Order! The hon. niember's time is up. MR. HISCOCK: So, Mr. Chairman, we have to do more for our youth. What we have to do is take our money and put it in the resource sector arid provide jobs. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Before you pass this, Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister of Finance(Dr. Collins) can clarify a matter for us in connnction with bringing these money bills into the House and making them retroactive. I am wonder if this is legal. I mean, are people forced to pay taxes before there is a bill put through this House? DR. COLLINS: Ithas always been done.

MR._NEARY: I know it has always been done, and I think I know what the answer is going to be from the minister, that the Lieutenant-Governor in Council can change the tax and then bring a bili into the House and have it made retroactive. But I have often wondered what would happen if it was challenged on constitutional grounds, or if somebody took the matter to court and said, We are paying the tax illegally. Because the tax really does not become legal, Mr. Chairman, until there is a bill passed in this House.

I do not like the idea myself of the Lieutenant-Governor in Council making tax changes and then bringing a bill into the House and asking the house to rubber stamp it to make it retroactive from midnight, say, 5966

November 29, 1982, rape 2839, Page 2 -- apb MR. NEARY: two Thursdays ago. That is what the minister does every year. lie did it again the Thursday before last. What would happen if somebody challenged it on constitutional grounds, or somebody said, We are notgoingto pay the tax because it is not the law of the 1aod? What would happen? Has it ever been challenged? And what would happen if it was? Could the minister enliihten the House on it? Because all these bills are rvtroactive, and all the ministry is doing is asking us to rubber stamp the approval. MR. chAIRMAN (A1wrd): The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR.

COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, the hon. the member for Eagle, I think - was it? MR. MARSHALL: Yes. DR. COLLINS: The hon. member for Eagle River (Mr. ihiscock) sugqests that if any revenues collected, if they do not go into th( resource sector, it is a waste of revenues, it is not doing a service to the people of this Province. Well, of course, that is a ridiculous argument. The government serviceE are given to the people of this Province without any direct payment at the time they receive them, by and large.

But, obviously, you know, services do have to be paid for, they have to be financed and they are financed out of revenues. Our health services are financed out of revenues. Now, that is not in the resource sector, but I do not think anyone would say that it is LI .5967

November 29, 1982 Tale 2840 NM - 1 DR. COLLINS: not a necessary service. Our educational services are not paid for directly at the time a student receives them, but they obviously had to be financed and financed through our taxation system and again, you know, that is an absolutely necessary service. So to say that the revenues collected should go into the resource sector just does not hold up. It sounds ;ood but it just does not mean anything. The hon. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) asked what would happen if someone refused to pay, in regard to an increised tax as brought in before the bill is actually passed by this Posse, ond he suqgests it is illeqal. Well, it reilly is not illegal. think the hon. Leader of the Opposition knows that it is not illegal. There is provisionI blieve, I will have to just check with where the

section is, but there is the provision under our statutes whereby these taxes can be brought in and are later ratified. !3ut they are in effect, and they are legalLy in effect right from the time that they are decided upon and announced in this house of Assembly. And of course,if that was not so there would be chaos. Because sometimes the tax bill itself might take weeks to go through and,you know,I do not know what would happen if everyone knew that taxes wero going to go up but they did not know when or how long in the future, or what date and so on and so forth There would be absolute chaos.

So when the taxes are introduced they dn come into effect immediately, and it is an absoLute necessity for it to happen that way. MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Shall the resolution carry?

November 29, 1982 Tape 2840 NM - 2 MR.CHAIRMAN (Aylw.ird) The hon. Leader of the Opposition - MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I do not want to delay the debate any further on this bill, on the tobacco 4 lax. This L5 not the most significant, most important tax bill that is coming before the House. We are not going to vote against this bill, aLthough as I said earlier, it does create sornewhtt of a hardship.

I hope no member of the House is under any illusion that this bill, by increasing the prie of a bot tle of beer, for instance - how many ordinary joople in this Province like to have a bottle of beer on t Friday night after work or a Saturday night? And there is no denying that, Mr. Chairman. Maybe the hon. gentlemen would like to see prohibition brought back. I am not one of these people. I do not drink beer myself. And I do not drink hard liquor myself. AN lION. MEMbER: Wine - a glass of wine. MR. NEARY: Of course I like a glass of wine. 01 . course I do. But, Mr.

Chairman, there are an awful lot of people in this Province who like a bottle of beer and so it does impose a little bit of an inconvenience and hardship on theoe people. We used to get a lecture from this side of the House continuously; for ten years I remember - no, not for ten years, for nine years in this House we got a 1ecture when th' Tories were over here, we got a lecture from one of the more vocal of the Tory benches at that time, 4 lie used to keep referring to beer as the poor man's champagne. What was the price of a bottle of beer at that time? Thirty- five cents I think it was. 5969

November 29, 1982 Tape 2841 PK - 1 MR. NEARY: I believe it was around thirty-five cents. Every year religiously we would get that I ecturo. Now what has happened To the poor man's champacjne When you look at the performance of this government , the state of the economy, the high unemployment we have in this Province, an ordinary person now cannot go out and drown his sorrown in a bottle of beer because it is too expensive. So, Mr. Chairman, we are not going to vote against this bill, there are other tax increases, tax measures that we are going to vote against. Mr.

Chairman, there is probably nothing further that T can say about this bill except let it go to a vote. As 1 have said, we are not going to vote against it. We are not qonq to vote for it. We could not care less what the government does with it, but there are bills - MR. TOBIN: On the fence again. MR. NEARY: Pardon me? MR. TOBIN: You are on the Fence. MR. NEARY: No we are not on the fence. If the government wants to take away the only little bit of pleasure that a lot of people got left in this world, a bottle of beer on a Friday or Saturday night they are the ones who will have to answer for it.

Cigarettesj could not care less one way or another. I gave up smoking cLgarettes,myselfabout fouiteen years ago. I still puff on the odd cigar, I chew on the end of it, I enjoy it. MR. TOBIN: Do you chew tobacco? MR. NEARY: No11 do not chew tobacco, 1 tried it onetime and it made me sick. But my father used to chew' MR. TOBIN: Now, 'ou know what you do to every- body else. 5970

L November 29, 1982 MR. NEARY: tobacco all of the tim AN RON. MEMBER: NEABY Tape 2841 PR - 2 My poor old father used to chew (Inaudible) Pa rdon? pp NPAPY: Inless ny colleaquc wants to have a few words, well put 1he bill, I cJUCSS. MB. CHAIRMAN (Aylward) : Ihe hon. member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, I just want to say a few brief words, espec ally when you are talking about a bottle of beer and alcohol. I think the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) when he brought down his Ministerial Statement, A Mid-year Economical And Fiscal Review, I believe, he sort of played the Devil's advocate, he ceme Lfl and all of a sudden he decided to increase the price of a bottle of beer and increase the price of a shot of whiskey, and at the same time1 which does appear to be a bit hypocritical, he marks off $110,000 from the Alcohol and Drug Dependency Commission. Now,here we are,it was only just a year and a half ago that the Minitor of Social Services (Mr.

Hickey) came into this hon. house and announced the appointment of Eve Beck as the cha:irperson or the director of this Alcohol and Drug Dependency Commission and said that this government was going to (p0 all out to try to tackle the problem of alcohol in this Province. 4 597

November 29, 1982 Tape 2842 ah - 1 MR. WARREN: In fact, I think Miss Beck was doing a fairly good job in the position she is in up until the Mini stor of Sinanco (fr. . Coi ii 05) let the hatchet q upon her. MR. NEARY : 1Out now t hey have knocked [lie props out from under her. 4 MR. WARREN: So titer what she has been doing - MR. TOBIN: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: You are only trynq to contradict what I said. MR. TOBIN: You said increases would be a deterrent to people going there. MR. NEARY: I said? MR. WARREN: What does this have to cia with what I am saying? MR.

NEARY: I said it brings a hardship on the ordinary person from having his bottle of beer on a weekend. MR. TOBIN: That is not what you said. MR. NEARY: I said it brings an inconvenience and a hardship. I did not say it was a deterrent. MR. WARREN: My concern, Mr. Speaker, - MR. NEARY: It means that much more money - MR. WARREN: Mr. Chairman, would you mind asking them to be quiet? MR. CHAIRMAN (Aylward): Order, picasc' MR. NEARY: Instea.1 of talking why do you not 1 Lsten for a changet 5972

November 29,1982 Tape No. 2842 ah-2 MR.WARREN: The hon. member for Burin (Mr. Tobin), I understand from the comments that he is making to the hon. eader of the Opposition (Mr.Neary), bolieves that the Minister of Social Services (Mr.Hickey) should come in tomorrow and disband the Alcohol and Drug 11 Dependency Commission. This is what the member was just saying. It was only just about a year and a half ago that the niinistor cane in and made a big Ministerial Statement saying,' 1ook,o have to tackle this alcohol problem in this hon. Douse.' NR. IUDEOtJI: (Inaudible) answer he gave.

MR.NEARY: Do you want me to tell you? MR.CIIAIRMAN (Aylward) : Order, please! MR.NEARY: You would not want to hear what he said about the hon. member. ?I'._RIDEOUT: I know what he said. MR.WARREN: lie spoke about him kissing the picture or something like that, I think. Anyway, Mr.Chairman, the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) comes in and all of a sudden expects to got $6 million from the sale of tobacco and alcoholic beverages in this Province.

And at the same time you would expect the Minister of Finance to say, seeing that we are going to raise $6 million in this instance the least we will try to do is give the Alcohol and Drug Commission some more money to fight the battles. tJo it is really amazing how a government - you know, it is better altogether 11 to ban them, just comeletely close down all the liquor stores, close every one of them down,the wine stores and everything, close them all down. MR.TOBIN: Do you drink wine? MR.WARREN: Once in a while. 5973

November 29,1982 Tape No. 2842 ah-3 MR.WARREN: Close the whole thing down and then we will do without our :6 million in taxes off ::ie people 's hack md at the name 1- ime than we cou I tell Miss Eve Beck and her qrou that we do not riced theiri any longer and we 4 5974

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2843 MJ - 1 MR. C. WARREN: can save the $200,000 that we are jiving to that commission, say, ' We do not need her no onger becrnisc' we have no alcohol in the Province and therefore ihero are not qoing to be any alcoholics in the Province. Mr. Chairman, let me just tell you a little story, maybe the minister is aware of it or maybe he is not. DR. J. COLLINS: Is it a prohibition story? MR. WARREN: No, no. It is close to it. in Frobisher Bay, in the Northwest Territories, there about eight years aqo,there was a serious problem with the sale and the consumption of alcohol.

A real serious problem. So what the people did was sign a plebiscit:e, they got their elected member to take it to the Territorial govorinent and say, 'We want the liquor store in Frobisher Bay, in the Northwest Territories, closed down.' The Territorial government sat down in their council meetings, they came up with a rcsoi ution and now there is no liquor stores open in the Frobi sher Bay, in Northwest Territories. I t is closed down becuise it was the people ' s decision, the poop i.e's choice and now the only way you can get your liquor in Frobisher 11ay is in the hotel them. Out there is none for sole.

And do you know what happened since then? Since then, Mr. Chairman, it is surprising the crime rate has diminished in Irohi sher Bay 33 per cent because of the lack of availal;ility of mines and spirits. Now the name thing could apply in this Province because we must remember - and I think that I can attest to this problem,that it is a soriouc problem, in parti cular in communities in 0 my district and not only that, I would venture to say, in communities in other ieople's districts there are problems of alcohol abuse and what happens ic it causes 5975

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2843 MJ - 2 MR.G._WARREN: hardship on the families concerned. And it is not only in my district but in other places in this Province they are seriously concerned. So what the minister is doing, the minister and his government which he is part of, is causing this infliction, this terrible disease to fall upon the peole of this Province. So, Mr.

Chairman, like I said, I do not care whether we get the increase in the tobacco tax or the alcohol tax, it does not make any difference to rne,but the least that the minister could have done was not embarrass Eve Beck, the Commissioner for the Alcohol and Drug Commission because she is a women, along with her twelve directore, who were out to tackle the alcohol problem in this Provi ncr. And what happens? As soon as they get started the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) comes in and uses the hatcher and cuts the logs right out from under them and now they have to go with a little less budget and the minister can iust sit back with his big smilesand say, 'Well, well, well, we will reap the monies in, we will reap the do] lars in now and at i he same tinie we wi 11 not give Miss fleck the opportunity to kil] us.' Because 5 376

November 29, 1982, Tape 2844, Page 1 -- apb MR. WARREN: this is what happened. Miss Beck was making such good progress in the fight against alcohol and its attributes that the minister said, We have to do something. And what did he do? Instead of helping out this group, this commission he decided to • cut the budget. MR. NEARY: Right on: MR. WARREN: Now, that was one way. Well, he said, we will cut the budget. So this is what this government has done.

This government has encouraged the use of alcohol in this Province by, number one, cutting, all of a sudden, almost in half the budget of the commission that was appointed several months ago. So any families that have problems in this Province with alcohol can blame it on one group of people in this Province, and that is the government. Because they are the ones who are encouraging people to drink alcohol. On motion, resolution carried. Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill (Bill No. 72) with amendment, carried. MR. MARShALL: Motion 4, Bill No. 73.

RESOLUTION "That it is expedient to bring in a measure respecting The Retail_Sales Tax Act, 1978." The hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Chairman, again this comes out of the statement that was made a few days ago.

Very briefly its two provisions are to increase the rate of retail sales tax, as it generally applied, from 11 per cent to 12 per cent, and it also brings in a new measure, a measure, I think, which is going to be of considerable benefit to the economic welfare of the Province ultimately, and, hopefully, in the not too distant future, that is there is a drop in the retail sales tax on building supplies r Ji/ /

November 29, 1982, Tape 2844, Page 2 -- apb DR._COLLINS: from the 11 per cent Level down to the 8 per cent level. So there is now a spread of 4 per cent between the retail sales tax on building supplies and that generallLy applied. Of course, the building supplies are used not only to build new homes but they are used, of course, for renovation and repairs. And Newfoundlanders, I think, probably more than any other, citizens of any other province, are involved personally in the repair and renovation of their own homes; it is a sort of an avocation for some people, it is almost a hobby for some people.

And all you have to do is go in on a Saturday morning to any of the outfits which sell home supplies, home repair supplies and goods for the renovation of homes and you can see it is almost like a family event; there is tho father there with children and often his wife and so on. So this is poing to be of benefit not only to the economy of i.he Province but it is also going to be of benefit to the individual who likes to do his own repairs. And, of course, those things are done during weather that is in'lemejit as well as in the Summer months when most homes arc built. 4 4 5978

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2845 SD - 1 DR. COLLINS: So this tax change should have some beneficial effects in very .:I,ort order. I move the resolution that 4 m)vl to bring in this bi 1 1 , Mr. Chairman. MR. ChAIRMAN (McNicholas) : The hon. Loader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr. Chairman, if I had a dirty mind and I do not have, I wou.].d think, after listening to the hon. gentleman,that the building suppliers were very closely identified with the Premier of this Province and with this admin i stra Lion.

And the building contractor s have tremendous influence, have more influence over the Premier than the ordinary person in thi:; Province who elected that administration. And I do not have 1:0 spell it out, hon. gentlemen know what I am talking about. AN DON. MEMBER: Spell it out. MR. NEARY: Yes, a building supplier has more influence over the Premier than 99.9 per cent of ordinary Newfoundlandcrs who votod for this administration because, Mr.

Chairman, if the people that 1 am referring to,if they did not wont a ane cent increase in the sales tax, if they did not want to put a tax on all food bought at restaurants and take-outs under three dollars, if they did not want that tax, these influential people, these people who influence the Premier, this great white hope, the salvation of Newfoundland bowing again to pressure, if they did iiot want the clothing tax, the retail, sales tax put on clothing and they have told the Premier they dcl not want it at their little secret meeting they have,then, Mr.

Chairman, there would be no clothing tax, there woutd be no tax on food and there would be no one cent increase in sales tax. But no, Mr. Chairman, they did not object to that. These influence peddlers did not want that, they wanted something to boost their own little business. So I would suspect the real reason why the retail silos tax was reduced on building material 5979

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2845 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: was to boost sales for some of the meople whom the Premier has been cavortinj with. DR. COLLINS: Name names. fo I 596[]

November 29, 1982 'tape 2846 EC - 1 It MR. NEARY: Ihc hen. gentleman knows who I am talking about. I would suspect that is the real nR)Llvation behind the reduction i n the sales tax on building materiate. Now if I had a dirty mind that is what I would think, Mr. Chairman. If I were one of I hose people who suspects ulterior motives in what the cjovernment is dong in this regard, if I suspected an ulterior motivc rn the part of the Premier - AN lION. MEMBER: But you are not like that. MR. NEARY: No, I am not like that. SOME lION._MEMBERd: No! MR.

NEARY: If I were, I would say that this move would he more inclined to help the people who sell and supply building materials. Because, Mr. Chairman, everybody knows, with the slump in the economy at this time, that people cannot even afford to buy building materIals. SC) it is meant to promote sales for the supp1ors of building materials and the people who build and construct houses. Mr. Chairman, I will not pursue that matti r any further because I am of clean mind. SOME lION. MEMUERb: hear, hear! MR. NEARY: 1 would not want to think for one moment, Mr.

Chairman, that those two hon. gentlemen who parade in and out of the private dining room downstairs, a building supplir and a building cont ractor, had any influence at all over the government reducing the sales tax on building materials. That would be the last thinq, Mr. Chairman, that: would enter my mind, Your Honour knows that. I am a preLty feir-minded fellow and that would ho the last, last thing to enter my mind. The only thing that I can hope, Mr. Chairman, is that some people may benefit by it, some people may benefit by the selfishness 5981

November 29, 1982 Tape 2846 EC - 2 NR. NEAkY: of the pcople who influenced this in the first place. Mr. ChaLrman, we are going to vote against this bill. We are going to vote against this bill because it creates a tremendous hardship on people right at a time of year when they can least afford it. We are going to vote against this hi 1] lscsusc we think it is cruel and callous. We are going to vote against it, Mr. Chairman, because we think it was unnecessary.

We are going to vote aqainsi: it because we think this particular tax boost is going to backfire, that the government aic going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. And we are going to vote aqainst this resressive tax, Mr. Chairman, because it hits the ordinary person harder than anybody else, people on fixed incomes, people on low income and 5962

November 29, 1982 Tape 2847 NM - 1 middle income. It hits the ordinary person right in the place where it hurts most, Mr. Chairman, at this particular time, in his pocketbook. It hits them at a time they can least afford to pay any increase in sales tax. And then to add insult to injury, then the government puts adult clothing undor the sales tax. That is the unkindest cut of all. You go from 0 per cent, up to 12 per cent. MR. TOBIN: Were you ever part of tax controlling? MR. NEARY If I was the hon. gentleman, Mr. Chairman, I woild be seen in this house and not heard.

After what has happened in Burin, md after what the people think of the hon. gentleman down there, and what the people are asking about time former member down there, if I Was the hon. member I would be seen and not heard. And if he has anything to say I think he should be saying it to the Premier and to the Minister of Fisheries. MR. TOBIN: I doubt very much if the people of the Burin Peninsula talked to you like that. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, if the hon. gentleman would like to have it documented, the phone calls that L have had in the last twenty-four hours from his districL, if lie would like for me to document it and table some of the letters in this Uouse I would be glad to do it. I would gladly do it. MR. TOBIN: Okay. Table them. Table them. MR._NEARY. And what the people think of the member as compared to the other member they had down there, the Libera' member. SOME lION. MEMBERS: Oh, oh 5983

November 29, 1982 Tape 2q47 NM - 2 MR. TOI3IN: Do not write them yourself though. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I do not operate that way. But I would like, if Your Honour does not mind, I cannot help but repeat what I thou(Jht so often in this House, the hon. gentleman does not realize yet that he is into the house of Asembl' and not in one of these other places that he frequents all the time. SOME HON. MEMBERS: hear, tear MR. NEARY: And thvre are rules4 Under the rules of this House, Mr. Chairman - MR. HODDER: I think he just came out of one, did he not? MR. NEARY: Mr.

Chirman, under the rules of this House you have to keep quite while a member is speaking, and if you do say anything you have to say it from your seat. Now,how often do I have to tell the hon. gentleman that? Is the hon. gentleman too pig- headed and too dense to let that sink in? If the hon. gentleman had any courage, had the courage of his convictions, he would vote against this bill to increase the sales Lax. If the hon. gentleman had any courage he would stand in his place in this House and say, "The people of my district cannot afford to pay this extra one cent on the sales tax.

And they cannot afford to allow the ilothing to go from 0 per cent up to 12 per cent: overnight. AN HON. MEMBER.: And v,,u bICVfli hhhd of ix iroJ clothing? SOME lION. MEMBERS: Oh, oh .5984

r November 29, 1982 Tape 2847 NM - 3 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, this tax is cruel, it is reqre;sive, it is qoinq to hit the ordinary person harder than anybody else. Pind I would - MR. TOBIN: Did you say (itiaudible) Was a jood tax but you would be afraid to vote for it politically? MR. NEARY: I beq your pardon? MR. TOBIN: Did you say that? MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, this is a very ioor tax. [ 5985

November 29, 1982 'rape No. 2848 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I tell you again, I have to ask the protection of the Chair. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I am not going to put up with these interruptions as if we were in a beer garden 4 somewhere. And so I have again to ask for the protection of the Chair. SOME lION. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: lion, gentlemen may laugh and sneer at this increase in taxes, the high unemployment, the closing of fish plants, T3otwaters' problems, they can laugh at them, joke about it and they can be as nasty as they wont about it, Mr.

Chairman, but these problems are not going to go away. An it would be far better for members, instead of into rruptinq speakers on fli is s ide oi I he House, if they started to govern, if they took their responsibilities as they should take them and try to do something about coping with these problems. That is what they should be doing, Mr. Chairman.

Instead of being in thin House day in and day out with silly grins on their faces, not taking their jobs seriously and being nasty and rude and when they get caught covering up and suppressing information that people should have and deciding when people - they decided - when people should be told the truth. Mr. Chairman, instead of doing that sort of thing in this house they should be out trying to encourage the Premier to govern this Province, to get home, to get back in his seat in this House and not be anxious to close the House down. That is what members should be doing. MR.

TOBIN: Tile member for i'oqo is back. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, 1 am not goinq to give the hon. gentleman from Burin - Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) a lecture on how he shoul.d carry out. his duties and responsibilities. The hon. gentleman knows that he has been lax, the hon. gentleman 5985

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2848 SD - 2 MR. NEAtlY: knows that the administration knew about the closing of the Burin fish plant. The hon. lentleman knew about the closing of the [turin fish plant' MR. WARREN: lie knew last Tuesday. R.NiARY: Yes, more than that, he knew it longer that LhL too, that the administration know about Lhe closing of the fish plant in [turin. They withheld the in formation from the peop in in Bur in. MR. WARREN: lie would not tell them. MR. NEARY: That is right, of course, it is right. MR. TOBIN: Are you saying that the acting Premier gave false in for mat ion today? MR.

NEAtlY: Well, maybe the acting Premier did not know. But there are people in the administration who knew. But anyway, Mr. Chairman, getting back to this tax bill, just when th' retail stores - MR. TULK: fly the way, there do not believe you down the MR._NEAtlY: Well, do not tell them that, do not give away any Secret_s. MR._TOBIN: (Inaudible) tell the story (inaudible) - MR. TUIK: That is all right. MR. NEAtlY: l)o not qive away any secrets now I mean, we w i I I doal wi Lb the hon. gentleman in due course. MR. TUbE: Jet him learn the hard way. MR.

NEAtlY: let him find out that people are now say ing, 'Where is Don iiollett when we need him? • That • is what the

November 29, 1982 [ape 2H49 CC - 1 MR. NEARY: people down in Dunn are asking now, 'Where is Don llotlett when we need him?' He is where 1 rut him -- out MR. NEARY: lie i a where the hon. pen bleman will be the next time round, one term, a one-shot deal. MR. TULK: 'How ceuld we vote for that they will say. MR. NEARY: That i; rIght. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh MR. NEARY: Mr. Cisirman, there arc only seven or eight of us here. It is hard for us to take on forty-four. We have an uphill battle as it is. Five or six or seven or eight of us, M . Chairman, cannot shout down forty-four and I am not going to try.

So I have Lo appeal to the Chair again for protection. MR. CHAIRMAN (Dr. McNicholas): Order, p1eese The hon. member has the right to be heard in silence if he asks for it. MR. NEARY: Mr. Cheirman, the question that I put to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) Has the government finally crippled the goose that lays the golden egg?

Just at a time when the retail stores were hoping for a beast in consumer spending during the Christmas season, the rovornlnen ft slapped another 1 per cent on the retail sales tax and they went from zero up to 12 per cent on clothinq for adults and they are taxing food in restaurants 7 rae thin $1, and that goes from zero to 12 per cent. Now, Mr. Cha i rnran , the experts have predicted that those taxes will backfire. MR. TULK: An Easter eggs tax. MR. NEARY: Well, we may have an Easter tax yet. We may have an Eas Ler egg tax yet.

November 29, 1982 Tape 2849 EC - 2 MR. NEARY: The budget will probably be brought clown in March or April. Apart from having the hot dog Lax a month before Christmas, we may have the Laster egg tax. Md. TULK: I dare say it will be 13 per cent. Md. NEARY: No, it will probably be a I iLt:lo more than that. But, Mr. Chairman, the hon. gentleman mLsint(rpreted what I said earlier. He said that revenue rlcv, r goes (lown as a result of increase in taxes. Well, I did noL say it did.

What I said was this, and Lhe hon. (lent leman should open his cars, that the (lovernmcnt may net get the revenue they expect to get, what they anticipate getting under these new increases in taxes. That is different from saying that tax revenue is going to decrease. What L am saying is that the minister has forecast that the government would get enough from these increases in taxes to make up a deficit of $60 million. MR. ChAIRMAN (Mchicho]as): Order, please The hon. member's time has clapued. MR. NEARY: Well, maybe one of my colleagues will give rile a break so that I can have a few more words. 5989

November 29, 1982 rape 2850 P1K - 1 SOME HON. MEMBERS: Carried Carried MR. CHAIRMAN (McNicholas): Shall the resolution carry? "That it is expedient to bring in a measure respecting ethies Pox Act, .1978." 4 On motion resolution, carried. A bill, 'An Act To Amend The Rotii Sales Act, 1978." Motion, that the Committee report having passed the bill without amendment, carried. MR._MARSHALL: Motion 5, Bill. No. 74. RESOLI JTION "That it is expedient to bi incj in a measure to amend The Insurance Premiums Tax Act, 1978." MR.CHAIRMAN: The hon. MinisLer of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr.

Chairman, this is a further resolution to deal with a tax change and this one relates to The Insurance Premium Tax Act where the level of taxation has been in the past the same as retail sales tax level and again it is kept level by increasing the rate from 1.1 per cant up to 12 per cent. Mr. Chairman, I just might say that this should not be confused with the insurance companies tax, which is a separate matter. This dcal.s with the insurance premium. So I move this resolution, MF. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR._NEARY: Mr.

Chairman, I am going to vote against this bill the same as we voted against the increase in the retail sales tax. This is another increase V that will hit the consumer right in the place where it hurLs most, in his pocketbook. And we think at this particular point in time, Mr. Chairman, that what government should be doing instead of increasing taxes is cuLting expenditure. 5990

November 29, 1982 Tape 2850 PM - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, we argue that there is enough unnecessary expenditure and enough extravangance and waste in the estimates to cut expenditure before the government Ir starts increasing the rota 11 sales tax and heating fuel tax ,ind i nsu rend' :ax Mr. Chairman, the kind of dnIiI u1 iat w te Ik ng about is the kind of expenditure I mentioned on a xiumbr of occasions. It is necessary, for instance, for the qov'rnment, right at a time when we were headed for a deficit, to iiicreaso the parliamentary secretaries, to give them offices, and give them secretaries? Was that necessary? 5991

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2831 MJ - 1 MR. S. NEARY: is it necessary to go down in front of Colonial building and start to remove the '7 fountain and trees right at a time when we are in a period of restraint and when we have a large d~ Iicit? Is it 4 necessary for the Premiers chief advisor to have a partition knocked down in the Premieres olfice and to call in an interior decorator to decorate his office to the tune of $20,000 in times of restraint, Mr.

Chairman, and to have an interior decorator to come in and decorate I he private dining room in Confederation building right at a time that we are headed for a de fict? Is it necessary to spend $250,000 observing the anniversary of Sir Humphrey Gilbert right at a time when we have a $61 million deficit and we are in times of restraint and we are asking people to cutback and tighten their bolts, Mr. Chairman? Mr. Chairman, is it necessary to operate Mount Scio house with one occupant, twenty seven rooms,in these times of restraint and bolt tightening? Is that necessary, Mr. Chairman?

Is it necessary for the government to spend $250,000 on replacing the cars in the car pool so that ni inisters can use government cars instead of their own cars-and deputy ministers-and in some cases give the government cars to [heir wives? Is that necessary, Mr. Chairman? And, you know, Mr. Chairman, you can take a sharp pencil and go through [he estimates and you could find anywhere, I would sly, between $20 million and $30 million that could be ohm mated from oxpendi Lu rr', Mr. Chairman.

And ,you know ,here we hay, just another example, this place up 00 I. he eleventh Floor, how much did that cost to renovate and what pu POSO is i t serving? Right at a time when the government knew we wem e headed into a $60 million deficit, they carried out these extensive renovations up here on the eleventh floor to make themselves a little room that looks Like something from luter 5992

November 29, 1982 Tape No. 2851 NJ - 2 IV MR. S. NEARY: opace so they could hold their news conferences and aquirt out their poison. SOME lION. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: And, Mi. Chairman, they will not allow the Opposition Io use it, thy will not allow the Loader of the Opposition (Mr. S. Nary) to use it. SOME lION. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, I happen to be a servant of this IlOuao,, 11 ] 993

November 29