LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 23 February, 1988. Time- 1:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER, Hon. M. Phillips: Pre se nting Pe titions . . . Re ading and Re cei ving Pe titions . . . Pres en ting Re ports by Standin g and Spec ial Comm ittee s . . . MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourabl e Min ister of Employme nt Se rvice s and Econom ic Se curity. HON. L. EVANS: Madam Speake r, I'd like to table the Annual Re port for the fiscal ye ar en ding March 31, 1987, of Manitoba Data Se rvic e s. MADAM SPEAKER: Notic es of Motion . . .

Is the contract drafte d and signe d at the pres en t time ? HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speak er , the contract is in le ga l ha nds, and as soon as it's re turned, it wi ll be tabled. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Spea ke r, I wonder if the Min iste r could indic ate whe the r or not this $90,000 contract with Mr. Robe rt Silver , in ex ch ange for his le aving the pres ide ncy of the MPIC, has bee n drafte d and sig ne d by all

partie s. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Spea ke r, the contract is in le ga l hands. As soon as it's re turne d, it wi ll be tabled . MR. G. FILMON: Madam Spe ake r, the Minister is obviously indicating that the contract has not ye t be en signed. We we re prom ised it more than a we ek ago. In troduction of Bills . . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable mem ber INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MADAM SPEAKER: Be fore moving to Oral Questions, ma y I direct the atte ntion of honourable mem ber s to the ga ller y wher e we ha ve from the Arg yle High School, six Grade s 10, 11 and 12 stude nts, unde r the direc tion of Mr.

Don Laforte . The se stud e nts live in the constitue ncy of the Honourable Mi nister of Northe rn Affairs. On be ha lf of all the mem be rs, we we lcome you to the Le gi slature this afte rnoon. ORAL QUESTIONS Autopac - Silver contract MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Le ade r of the Opposition. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Madam Spe aker. While the Ministe r is coming in the back door, I hav e a que stion for the. Minis te r re sponsible for MPIC. Mada m Spea ke r , my ques tion is for the Mini ste r re sponsibl e for the Manitoba Public In suranc e Corporation.

More than a wee k ago, he promise d mem ber s on this side of the House that he would table the contract that he ent er ed into with Mr. Robe rt Silver , the $90,000 contract, whe re by Mr. Silver agree d to re linquish hi s position as pre side nt of MP IC. Is the Mi niste r now in a position to table that contract? MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nou rable Mini ste r re sponsible for MPIC. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speak e r, as soon as it's rece ive d from the lawye rs, it will be tabled. MR. G.

FILMON: Mada m Spe ake r, the Mi nister indicate d last we ek that he be liev ed that the contract was drafte d. 224 have a que stion? MR. G. FILMON: Has this thing all be en done in ha ste , and if this was a last mi nute ef fort to try and ke ep Mr. Silver silen t, why is the contract not available ? You promised it mor e than a we ek ago. Madam Spe ake r, I wonder if the Min iste r can indicate whe the r or not, under this contract for mor e than $90,000 with Mr. Silver , the re is any provision with re spe ct to special pe nsion be ne fits. HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Spe ake r, I've ind icate d - and I gu ess I ce rtainly wouldn't be one to go to the Le ade r of the Opposition for le ga l advic e - the contract is in le ga l hands and all the provisions of the contract will be ma de public when it's tabled he re. As soon as I've re ce ive d it, you'll be the first to hav e a copy of it. lt will be he re in the House. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Spe ake r, the Minister se em s to be prog rammed to gi ve the same answe r but he doesn't listen to the que stion. I've aske d him three differ en t ques tions.

He 's answe re d none of them , ex ce pt he 's gi ve n the- same answe r about leg al ha nds. MADAM SPEAKER: Orde r ple ase , orde r ple ase . May I re mi nd the honourable mem ber that answe rs to questions cannot be insiste d upon and that questions should not be re pe titious. The Min iste r is not re quired to answe r a que stion to the satisfaction of the mem ber asking it. The Honourable Le ade r of the Opposition, with a ques tion. MR. G. FILMON: Madam Spea ke r , I wonder If the Ministe r could answe r a ve ry simple que stion. Is the re any specific re fe re nce to pe nsion be ne fits in the agreement?

HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Spea ke r, I will not de al with any portions of the agree ment. Whe n the agre ement

Tuelday, 23 February, 1988 is back from legal counsels and is reviewed by legal counsels, then it will be tabled in the House and all his questions will be answered , Madam Speaker. Autopac - liability coverage MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Member for Ste. Rose. MR. G. CUMMINGS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister responsible for MPIC. Madam Speaker, it's becoming clear that drivers with $200,000 liability coverage in this province may very well be underinsured.

MPIC statistics show that 88 percent of eligible motorists in this provinc e bought liability coverage and almost 70 percent of those bought coverage worth $1 million or more. Can the Minister inform the House and the people of this province the number of Manitoba motorists who are now dr iving around with considerably less coverage? HON. B.

URUSKI: Madam Speaker, I' ll take the specifics of that question as notice in terms of the honourable mem ber's question, but I want to tell my honourable friend that unlike Ontario, where the Consumers' Association in Ontario has indicated that there are 200,000 vehicles uninsured in the Province of Ontario - currently 200,000 vehicles - that's a third of Manitoba's vehicles - the same people who came to the legislativ e committee said that - (Interjection) - Madam Speaker, the honourable mem bers don't know that that answer cannot be provided because the renewal period is not over.

As soon as the renewal period is over and all the calculations are in, in terms of coverage that motorists take, then they will have those figures and those figur es will be made available in committee. lt will be at least approximately two weeks after the renewal date is over by the time all the accounting measures are taken in from the agents during the renewal process. At that time, some time after that, will that number be known, Madam Speaker. Autopac - extenaion coverage MR. G. CUMMINGS: Madam Speaker, the Minister takes great glee In making com parisons to Ontario.

If the people of Ma nitoba think that there's any comparison between Manitoba and Toronto they're badly misled by this Minister. Madam Speaker, last year, 73 percent of Manitoba motorists bought extension automobile coverage which lowered their deductible from the basic $200.00. Madam Speaker, the bulk of those motorists paid extra for a deductible level of $100 .00.

That's more than three times less than the basic deductible In this province under the present plan. 1 would like the Minister to provide the House with an estimate of the number of dr ivers who have ceased buying extension coverage on the deductible portion of their insurance. Madam Speaker, this simply proves that the people of this provi nce are paying more and getting less. HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, the honourable member appears to already know the answer when the 225 renewal period is not over. He appears to be attempting to answer his own question and I can't provide him with that.

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! HON. B. URUSKI: We ll, Madam Speaker, it is obvious he has made up his own answers and his own questions so that at least if he gets mixed up on a question he'll try and give his own answer to that question, Madam Speaker. But the fact of the matter is that motorists do have the option to take additional coverage if they desire or they can, in fact, go to the private sector to take addit ional coverage, or whate ver. That portion of business on the extension insurance has been open to comp etition since Autopac, since 19 71. MR. G.

CUMMINGS: Madam Speaker, the Minister says that I have tried to answer the question for him. I at least have an unders tanding of the percentage of people that are not . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. MR. G. CUMMINGS: . . . gett ing the same coverage. MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Does the honourable member have a question? MPIC - actuarial review MR. G. CUMMINGS: Madam Speaker, this Minister agreed to take a question as notice earlier. Will he now agree to provide the information that he said he would table in this House from questions that were asked last week? HON. B. URUSKI: Ye s, Madam Speaker.

I took a number of questions as notice from my honourable friend, and he asked me questions dealing with the matter of the reserves - on the actuarial reserves. I want to indicate to my honourable friend that, based on generally accepted acc ounting princip les, the adjust ment lie s properly in 19 87. This is a requirement of the Canadian Institute of Chartered Accountants. Since there was no actuarial review in 19 86, we really don't know what adjustment, if any, would have been required. In any case, most of the 19 87 adjustment relates to the timing of adjusting and other expenses, not claims reserves.

The claims portion of 23 million claims from prior to 1987 is less than 20 percent of the total. On a pool of incurred but unpaid claims of about $250 million, the adjustment of $4 million or so I would say, Madam Speaker, is remarkably small. MPIC - opinion poll HON. B. URUSKI: Madam Speaker, the other question dealing with paying a portion of its share of public opinion polling - I'm advised that the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation has condu cted a variety of

Tuesday, 23 February, 1988 market research projects over the years. The research involved three primary su bject are as: traffic safety research, to ena b le M PlC to deve lo p effect ive accident countermeasures; secondly, research-se eking pub l ic input on the operations of Autopac - that is: levels of service, coverage requirements; and research to evalua te consumer demand for the genera l insurance products which the corporation se ll s in the competitive marketplace.

Madam Speaker, I am also advised that the most rec ent public survey that MPIC participated in was an omnib us survey conducted in Ja nuary 1987 by Criterion Research Corporation. This survey cost MPIC $8,000 and dealt with issues relating to traffic safety, Autopac service levels, and the corporation's general insurance products. Osborne report request MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem b er for St. Norbe rt. MR. G. MERCIER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I have a que stion for the Attorney-General.

Madam Speaker, the Attorney-General has indicated that part of an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the death of He l en Betty Osborne in The Pas will be released after the appeals have been completed. Coul d the Attorney-General in dicate whether the full investigative report will be released publicly when the appeals are completed ? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney -G eneral. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Ye s, the report which I received Friday la st will be released in full, following the appeal. MR. G.

MERCIER: Madam Speaker, in view of the serious publi c concerns that have been raised in regard to this matter , in particular the granting of immunity to one of the accompli ces- alleged accomplices - could the Attorney-General indicate whether he will hold a public inquiry into this matter after the appea l has been finished? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Madam Speaker , what we will do is await the outcome of the appeal and any possible further activity that may result and, once that is done, once the report is released, there will be further discussions with the commun ity. I've indicated to the Me mber for St.

Norbert that I've bee n out in The Pas several times. We 've discussed these issues wi th the communities out there and certain ly, once the overall legal cases are completed , we wo uld be prepared to discu ss wh at is necessary to ensure Ma nitobans believe that the system is fair to all. Aw asis Ag ency - charges MR. G.

MERCIER: A final supplem entary question to the Attorney-Gen era l in regard to another matter of which I gave him notice last wee k, privately, Madam Speaker, co ncerning the 14-year-old gir l who was 226 alle gedl y raped la st year whil e under the jurisdiction of the Awasis agency in Northern Manito ba. Could the Attorney-Gen era l indicate now whether or not criminal charges have be en laid with respect to that matter, or will be la id shortly, those events having taken place many months ago, Madam Speaker ? HON. V. SCHROEDER: Ye s, I thank the Memb er for St. Norbe rt for having provided notice.

There have be en four adul ts charged. Their prelimi nary hearing date has be en set. I bel ieve it's some time in earl y March. As we ll , there have be en four juveniles charged. Their transfer hearing has also be en set for a date la ter than that for the first four individuals. Speed limit reduction MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourabl e Mem ber for River Heights. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Min ister of Hig hways.

In October 1987, the Highway Traffic Board refused for the second time a request from a coalition of four schoo ls, Sir Will iam Dafoe, Montrose, Sir William Osie r - excuse me, Montrose, Jo hn Dafoe, and Ramah to reduce the speed li mit on Grant Avenue from 60 kilometres per hour to 50. The Minister of Hig hways, Madam Speaker, doe s have the authority under

section 101 of The Highway Traffic Act to reduce this speed li mit. Why has he not done so? · MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourab le Min ister of Hig hways and Transportatio n . HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Ye s, thank you, Madam Speaker. As the Member for River Heights is aware, there is a Manitoba Traffic Board that reviews matters of this nature. I did have a rep rese n tative of that group mee t with me and with the chairperson and the vice­ chairperson of the board, and I am satisfied that the board made the appropriate decision.

Therefore, it would be totall y inappropriate for me to override their decision, or its decision. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: A su pplem entary que stion to the same Min ister. Madam Speaker, there are 12 schools on or near Grant Avenue. Is the Min ister waiting for a serious accident or death before he acts? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: The Minis ter of Hig hways doesn 't want to see deaths anyw here, whether the re be 12 school s or 2 sch ools.

The fact of the matter is that ex perience has shown that simply putting up a sign regulating the speed to 50 kilo metres an hour doe s not ne ce ssarily mean that the motorists will drive at 50 kilometres an hour. The problem is not one of signa ge. - (Inter je ction) - While the memb ers opposite laugh at the reality, the pro ble m is not one of signage or of decreasing the s pee d limit, but a matter of enforcement, and the individuals involved who have

Tund ay, 23 February, 1988 petitioned the Highway Traffic Board have been so advised to seek assistance from the City of Winnipeg. MRS. S. CARSTAIRS: As a final supplementary to the same Minister, Madam Speak er, his logic is the same as the Traffic Board that said because everyone went at 64 k's, there was no need to reduce it. Will this Minister reconsider his lack of decision and act on behalf of the children who go to these 12 schools and have to cross this avenue four times a day? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Madam Speaker, as I've in dicated, I have had a num ber of meetings with the Hig hway Traffic Board on this issue. I am satisfied that they have made an informed decision, and therefore I have no intention of overriding a decision made by that board. However, I would hope that the parents who are concerned -and certainly I share their concerns -would take it upon them selves to speak to their city councillor and city officials and see to it that there is a greater degree of enforcement at the pedes trian corridors, and that there is a gr eater deg ree of enforcement with respect to spee ding.

The answer does not lie in lowering the speed limit to 50 kilometres an hour . Bighetty report request MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIRT: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Community Services. lt's been reported that her department is invest igating the Awasis Agency of Northern Manitoba as it relates to the death of one John Bighetty. I'm wondering if the Minister will be tabling that report in its entirety and original form in this House when it is completed. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services and Corrections. HON. M.

HEMPHILL: Madam Speaker, I'm expecting to receive the report from the agency within the next week or so, and after we've received tha t, the department will be able to complete its own report, at which time I'd be quite happy to share the Information with the mem bers of the House. MR. C. BIRT: Madam Speaker, that's what concerns me. If this government can make an announcement as to mineral production at great length in this House . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a question? MR. C. BIRT: . ..

I'm not int erested in sharing information, I would like to have the report of the department, as well as the agency, tabled so that we can know exactly what the problems were, and what steps, if any, should be taken to correct the matter, so would she table both reports in this House? HON. M. HEMPHILL: Madam Speaker, we will be following all the standard practices and procedures for 227 providing information.

The only caveat that I would include is that when you are dealing with matters of child care and information about families, there is, under The Child and Family Services Act, some requi rements for confidential ity, and when we're releasing information to the public that must also always be taken into consideration. MR. C. BIRT: I'm prepared to accept that there be exclusions on confidentiality. What I would like to get are the original reports with that caveat in it. I don't want a press release or a doctored report from the Minister's office. MADAM SPEAKER: Does the honourable member have a ques tion? MR. C.

BIRT: I would like to know to know if the Minister would table the original reports. Feedlot program MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for • Virden. • MR. G. FINDLAY: Thank you, Madam Spea ker. The Minister of Agriculture has ind icated that he's prepa red to enter a feedlot stabilization program following a series of producer meetings in the province, Madam Speaker. At these meetings, there are two basic pri nciples that farmers need to di scuss, Madam Speaker: one, whether it would be a provincial plan; or, secondly , whether it be a tripar tite plan involving the Federal Government.

Madam Speaker, the fairest way to get honest dis cussion at these meetings is to have the meetings conduc ted by his Economics Branch with the Beef Commission there to present the provincial proposal and the Manitoba Cattle Producers there to discuss the tripartite proposal. I would like to ask the Minister if he's prepared to set the meetings up in this fashion. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. L. HARAPIAK: Thank you, Madam Speaker. Clear ly, we are following a format which is going to provide for public discussion.

We 've ind icated that we will be incorporating the discussions on the expansion of the feedlot program with the meetings that have been held In previous years to share results on the Manitoba Beef Commission program. We do not see that these would be closed meetings, and we are not going to suggest that one particular view can be provided with respect to tripartite. In fact, when I met in Ottawa with the Federal Minister and the other Provincial Ministers, I invited them to participate in any dis cussions that we had in Manitoba and they could feel free to have their represe ntatives at our meetings.

I think for the Member for Virden to suggest :hat somehow the process will be stacked in favour of the provincial program is misleading. I have indi cated it to the department and it has been the practice, in fact, in previous years, aside from discussion on tripartite,

Tuesday, 23 February, 1988 that the regional dir ectors from the department would be involved often in the chairmanship of the meetings. ; I've indicated that would be my dir ection for this year. r MR. G. FINDLAY: Madam Speaker, at no time in my � questions had I indicated a preference for one particular plan. I would like to ask the Minister: Is he saying that ' he will refuse the Manitoba Cattle Prod ucers the opportunity to be includ ed in the program to present their point of view? HON.

L HARAPIAK: Madam Speake r, when I indicated that these would be public meetings, clearly, they are open to anyone who is interested in attending. I am not going to indicate to any one group that they can or cannot attend. If they are public meetings, surely it ' is understood that anyone who is out there who has a view on the matter should attend. I don't know that it should be limited only to producers. There are various people in the commu nit ies who have views and comments and can provide constructive advice as to 1 how the program should be structured.

Clearly, Madam Speaker, they are open meetings with no indication on my part that there should be spec ific selection of representations as seems to be implied in 1 the comme nts of the Member for Virden. , MR. G. FINDLAY: To this point in time, Madam Speaker, only contract holders of the Beef Commi ssion have had r any notice that these meetings are in place. How is he planning to inform the other cattle producers of this province that they are welcome at these meetings and that open discussion will occur? , HON. L.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, the notice that , went out to contract holders with the Beef Commission indicated that there would be a process for reporting i to them as has been the case in the past with respect to the performance of the Beef Commi ssion. We have c now put in place a program where we said, rather than having separate meetings on that same agenda, we would have the report of the Beef Commission. We would as well, at that time, table our proposals for the alternate feedlot plan.

The notices with respect to the meetings will be in the various comm1,1nity papers - whatever process is used, as determined by the department, whether it be communication on the radio, the local new spapers - but I can assure him that there will be adequate notification. In fact, the dates have been set, and I would be pleased to table in the House a listing of those dates and locations. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden with a final supplem enta ry. MR. G.

FINDLAY: Ye s, Madam Speaker, if I'm not mistaken, those meetings are to start the 2nd of March, which is next week, and I wonder how he is going to get that information to the other producers so that they can be there and informed as to what the discussion is going to be about. HON. L.

HARAPIAK: Madam Speak er, I will check with the department to see what communication has already 228 been unde rtaken in the public forum; but if that has not been done, I hope that some who will be viewing this Sessi on, some who will be lis te ning to the proceed ings here, would note that the meetings will be starting as of the 2nd of March, and I will table in this Hous e tomor row a complete listing of dates and locations and I will ensure that there has been adequate publication on that as I am sure there already has. Home Care Services - appeal MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Health. HON. W.

PARASIUK: Ye sterd ay, I took under consideration some questions raised by the Member for River Heights regarding home care. She had asked me when will the appeal process for home clients be in place. I have been informed that there is currently an appeal process.

If the person receiving home care is not satisfied with the home care worker, or the number of hours that are assigned to them, they have the right to call or write to the supervisor, and then on to the regional home care supervisory level and ultimately to the Minister if they are not satisfied . it may be that procedure is not well-enough known and I think that would be better communicated. The se cond que stion asked was why didn't the external review undertake a survey of home care clients as part of their review.

I thought there had been some, but I checked on that, and there was a telephone survey of a random sample of home care clients undertaken by them as a part of their review. I understand that they contacted some 1 ,001 people as part of this random sample, which I think is a very large sample in terms of getting a response. I hope that provides the information that the Member for River Height s is looking for. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Ell ice. MR. H. SMITH: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is for the Minister of Health.

Over the last few months, this ad has been appearing in national magazines: If you are facing baldness, you should know the facts . . . SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. MR. H. SMITH: Would you show this to the Minister? Does the Health Minister have any details of why an unnamed company paying for this ad campaign would want to encourage people to see their doctor for baldness? MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The question is not with in the adminis trative responsibility of the Minister. The Honourable Member for Ellice with a question. MR. H.

SMITH: Yes, I am wanting to know if the Minister knows where this ad, who put this ad in . . .

Tueaday, 23 February, 1988 MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. That question is . . . MR. H. SMITH: Okay, I'll ask another question then. You know, Madam Speaker, you have to have a little preliminary . . . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The honourable member has the floor to ask a question which is in order. MHSC - treatment coverage MR. H. SMITH: Does Medicare, does his department pick up the cost if a person goes to the doctor to see about baldness? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Health. HON.

W PARASIUK: Madam Speaker, as someone who is sliding quickly down the same slippery slope that the Member for Ellice has already slid down, I paid some attention to this ad, but I didn't look at it carefu lly.

But I do want to indicate to the member that this particular drug, which is not referred to in this ad - I think the ad is somewhat misle ading, trying to induce extra Pharma care costs and trying to induce extra Medicare costs - in fact, the drug has been delisted by the pharm aceutical comm ittee. lt has inde ed been delisted and we are taking a look at whether in fact this type of advertising by a pharma ceutical company to get people to visit a doctor, to get a prescription for a cosmetic dr ug is indeed being covered by Medicare, because that would be a bad use of Medicare. 1t would take away money from Medi care that could be used for other more essential services.

I think it is a very valid question by the Member for Elli ce, and I will certainly look into it in great detail. Airstrip purchase - God's River MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Madam Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Natural Resources. I wonder if the Minis ter could indicate whether his department has comp leted arrangements to purchase the God's River airstrip. If not, what arrangements are being made to provide that kind of service for the people in the area? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Mi nister of Natural Resources. HON. J.

PLOHMAN: Madam Speaker, this issue is now being arranged and discussed with the Minister of Northern Affairs, and he will respond to the question. MADAM SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Minis ter of Northern Affairs. HON. E. HARPER: Ye s, we've been talking with the band and the Federal Govern ment in arranging to settle 229 this issue. We've made arrangements with the Federal Government to cost-share in resolving this issue. The agreement that I have with the Federal Government is ' I that any kind of announcement we would do jointly, 1 so we are in the process of doing that. MR. A.

DRIEDGER: Madam Speaker, to the Minister of Northern Affairs then. ' Can the Minister indicate what the cost will be to the taxpayers of Manitoba in terms of the agreement? HON. E. HARPER: Ye s. I want to cooperate with the Federal Government in announcing this joint resolution to the problem. I will be announcing the cost as soon as I have completed the arrangements. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Madam Speaker, to the sa me Minister then. Can the Minister indicate when that announcement , will be forthco ming? HON. E. HARPER: I will be discussing that thing this afternoon.

I believe the Minister responsible for the NDA and Mr. Valcourt are being advised of the date, whether we could do it today or tomorr ow. I will be in a better position to know that later on this afternoon. Special education needs MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin-Rus sell. MR. L. DERKACH: Madam Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education.

Parents of children with learning disabilities have been experiencing some incredible difficulties and frustrations in getting informatior with regard to their children - information such as diagnostic testing, the results of that test ing, placement of students and the support those students are rec eiving. Can the Minister indicate to the House what polic ies this government has in place that will ensure parents timely and appro priate and complete information on their children? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honou rable Minis ter of Education. HON. R.

PENNER: Madam Speaker, yes, there is an issue there. lt is a matter primarily at the moment within the jurisdiction of the school divisions. My understanding is there is one school division in which it, at least In the past, has been a problem. But because there is a problem of general application, I have this matter under very active consideration and will likely be bringing forward some legislation to deal with the particular question of the availability of such information to parents - information that is in the possession of school divisions that relates to just general performance and special needs as well.

MR. L. DERKACH: Wel l, Madam Speaker, it's a well­ known fact that the frustration that parents have been experiencing has led to some parents removing their childr en from the school system and doing home

• • Tu..ctay, 23 February, 1988 schooling with their children. Other parents have taken their children out and enrolled them in the Laureate Academy and gone to such extremes as even mortgaging their homes to ensure that these children can receive the appropriate education. I ask the Minister whether he is prepared to act in a responsible and early manner so that more students are not subjected to this kind of treatment in the future? HON. R. PENNER: Madam Speaker , I'm always prepared to act in both a responsible and I hope a prompt fashion on issues that are addressed to me in my present or any portfolio.

I think that I have that record, Madam Speaker; in fact, I know that I do. Mada m Speak er, Manitoba education is kno wn throughout Canada for being in the lead in dealing with special needs. We take second place to no one in this country in dealing with special needs. Having said that, we are by no means satisfied or prepared to rest on our oars with respect to special needs.

Indeed, the former Minister of Education, the Honourable Jerry Storie, the Member for Flin Flon, present Minister of Energy and Mines, appoin ted a special advisory committee on special needs a year ago composed of representativ es from every major special needs group. I met with that group, a very dedicated group. That group will be reporting to me in June of this year, at which time the report will be made available to this House. I would be prepared in taking a very careful look at the rec ommendations, to act on tho se recommendations which are within our jurisdiction and within our resources.

Having said that, and I conclude, Madam Speak er, it will never be the case, regrettab ly, that the school system, the public school system can meet the needs of every individual student. We will try our best; we are mainstr eaming. We 've got consu ltants; we've got an advisory committee that will be reporting. We will do the best we can, but there will always be some students whose needs are so special and so different that we cannot, nor would we want to, prevent attempts by their parents to find some other avenue of recourse. MR. L.

DERKACH: Madam Speaker, although the Minister ind icates that we have a very fine school system in our province, I have to paint out to him that over the last few years, we have had parents raise some very real concerns that have not been answered. As a matter of fact, Madam Speak er, just lately we saw a parent remove his child from our school system in Manitoba and take him to Ontario where his child is recei ving the appropriate education he requires.

But I'd like to ask the Minister, Madam Speaker , how many students are there in this province who are like Devl in Stevens, who are placed into a Grade 10 classroom and are functioning at a grade level that's well below the placement of them? HON. R. PENNER: I'll take that question as notice, but having taken that question as notice, it may not be easy to ascertain the number . I expect that it is not very large.

One of the problems, Madam Speaker , that we're addressing in mainstream ing - and it is this government that has grasped the nettle of a very thorny problem 230 in mai nstreaming and has achieved more since the election of the Pawley adminis tration in 1981 in mainstreaming than any previous government - that, in doing that, we still have a number of problems to resolve and it will be the case that in attempting to deal with those special needs, the number of happy and satisfied children who otherwise would have been condem ned to a black existence has in creas ed exponentially in our system and we're proud of that fact. lt will still be the case that some of these special needs children will not, in every respect, of course, measure up to the general level of academic achievement in the particular class in which they are placed.

How in the world could you rea sonably expect that? You are attem pting to place a burden on those chil dren which those chil dren ought no t be - (Interjection) - asked to bear . MADAM SPEAKER: Order please. Manitoba Chi efs' Secretariat - formation MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Madam Speaker . I have a question for the Minister respo nsible for Native Affairs. Madam Speaker, recently, the Minister annou nced a Manitoba Chiefs' Secre tariat, of which he has placed $100,000 of Manitoba taxpayers' money.

Madam Speaker , the question to the Minister is why did he not consult with the chie fs prior to making that annou ncement and the est ablishment of that secretariat? MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Minis ter of Northern and Native Affairs. HON. E. HARPER: Ye s, I've had several meetings with the ch iefs and there's always going to be a conflict between the ch iefs thems elves.

There's been consu ltation made on this and we've suppor ted the chiefs in organizing a Chie fs of Manitoba Secretariat in which they can present information and also help us in dialogue in relation to many of the issues: self­ government, taxation, some of the issues of the treaty rights. lt is an investment that I recom mend to my colleagues and to this Leg islature in terms of support because there's been a lack of support for aboriginal people in Manitoba, and it's about time that we start looking into the areas of Indian people and their issues and the poverty and the chaos that exists In the communi ties.

MR. J. DOWNEY: Madam Speaker, I have no argument with the Minister in that regard; in fact, I've pressed him to have legislative hearings throughout Manitoba to look into the problems of the Native communi ty and to di scuss self-gov ernment. I ask the Minister, Madam Speaker: Did he consult with the chiefs, the Chiefs' Secretariat, in the selection of Phil Fontaine as the interim coordinator? Were there full and open discussions as to who would be their best coordinator for the organization?

Tuesday, 23 Februarr. 1918 HON. E. HARPER: The chiefs have decided that. I don't question their decision-making process in terms of who they select, and that decision rests with the chiefs. MADAM SPEAKER: The time for Oral Questions has expired. ORDERS OF THE DAY THRONE SPEECH DEBATE MADAM SPEAKER: On the proposed motion of the Honourable Member for St. Vital, the Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. C. BIAT: Thank you, Madam Speaker . lt's a pleasure to rise and to take

part in this debate. I've now had an opportunity to speak on a number of issues over the last three or four years that I've been in this House, and it gives me great pleasure to partake in a debate that has had perhaps more substance, more feeling and more direction than the Speech from the Throne that we are attempting to address. In fact, one wonders, when one reads it carefully, why it was even introduced. But before I get into my major comments, I would like to make some prelimi nary remarks. lt's been a year since I've had an opportunity to address this Chamber .

I trust that the ensuing time has been good and kind to all members of this Legislature and those who serve this Chamb er, whether they be staff or the press. lt's been a rapid change in time for myself, and I hope that the time has been extremely rewarding to all other memb ers who are involved in this Cha mber. To you, Madam Speaker , I wish you wisdom, careful

interpretation of the rules, and I know you have a difficult job in trying to control the government in exceeding the rules, but with our help, we will work together to make sure that this is an orderly Chamb er. Last night, I had the privilege of being involved in, shall we call it the feeder of the absurd where everyone arrived to see an event take place that really was a nonevent, because the event, though height had taken beyond great borders of this province, really amounted to nothing.

In fact, it was rather interesting to note that the audience that arrived to see the defeat of the government was much larger than the audience that particip ated in reading the Speech from the Throne. I know these mikes are sensitive, but I don't think the comments were heard from the galler y, because the important thing is when the Member for St. Vital decided to side with this rather inept government, there was a groan throughout the audience In the upper Cham ber. I think we should put that on the record that more people came for the hanging than actually came for the celebration.

The other interesting aspect is - and I see I've touched a rather sensitive nerve. - (Interjection) - Well, yes, we have many leaders over here. I'm glad the Attorney­ General recognizes that there is no leadership on the government side and that's what my colleagues have been attempting to displa y and show to the public for the last two years. SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, ohl 231 MADAM SPEAKER: Other members have had an opportunity to participate in the debate. The Honourable Member for Fort Garry has the floor. MR. C. BIAT: Thank you , Madam Speaker.

Some four months ago, I was made critic of the Com munity Services and Corrections portfolio, and I would like to touch on some of the issues, but I've not had an opportunity to extensively get to know all of the aspects of that particular portfolio. I've had the privilege of attending at the Manitoba Developmental Centre at Portage la Prairie. I met with the staff, had a tour of the facilities, and considering that it was some 20 years ago that I had last attended at that institution, I found it quite a remarkable place, and great strides have been made.

I'm also aware that a number of the people who were in that institution could never leave that institution and it's a pity but, even with the We lcome Home Program that is being sponsored today and encouraged and supp orted by the public, there are certain people there who will never be able to leave it.

I think it's important that one gives every effort that one can to that. it's interes ting, I know in the deb ates of last year, there were a great number of numbers bandied about as to the number of people who would be leaving that institution, who would be going to homes or to care situations outside of the institution, but when I was going through the place, one physiotherapist and six aides were attempting to provide physical stimulus for some 85 patients or inmates. That amounted to less than 15 minutes of physical activity per day.

I know that the former Minister had indicated that the number of emplo yees would be reduced in the Developmental Centre and they would find jobs in the outside commun ity. I've been advised that is not the case and, in fact, I would urge the government that if they wish to reassign some people, they should concentrate on the area of physical fitness and activities for those who really can't help themselves. Because really, 15 minutes of activity per day with the limited resources that they have is not sufficient. This activity, of course, would help these individuals enjo y a better life.

So my plea to the Minister is to consider perhaps reas signing some of those positions to look after those people. I've also had an opportunity to visit some of the homes where the people are now residing. In particula r, I've had an opportunity to visit a number of the homes operated by Winnserv in the City of Winnipeg. I note that the Minister has been invited to attend at these homes and view them, become involved in their operation, but perhaps her

schedule is such that it has not permitted her to take advantage of this invitation. But I would urge her to do so in the not-too-distant future, because they are quite remarkable in what they're atte mpting to do. The concern that one has though in the We lcome Home Program is those who are now offering this service are being strained by financial constraints. There are a great number of people trying to provide care. The funding and the financial formula that goes into supporting these programs were set several years ago and are not adequate to today's costs. As a result, a lot of these people and institutio ns are forced to raise funds on their own. This fund-raising

Tuesday, 23 February, 1888 activity has been curtailed with the government's move to restrict, in fact eliminate, some of the money-raising sources that they've had in the past. This is unfortunate. What is now happening, and we've seen reports from some of the rural home operators, that they are now using bank financing to fund the shortfall in these homes. This cannot continue because, if it does, these people and these institutions will be placed into bankruptcy or the government will have to devise an alternate method of delivery of care. Therefore, I would urge the Mini ster to look seriously at this area.

I caught the tail end of the comments made by the Minister of Community Services about the federal day care program. I noted that she had more criticisms than support for the program. As I understand that program - and she's a better expert at the criticism than 1 - but as I understand the thrust of the federal program is that it's attempting to put money in the hands of parents to allow them to make decisions for their children. This, I gather, is not acceptable to this government or this Min ister.

Granted, the program that the Federal Government Is trying to devise may not be perfect, but when you consider it's trying to provide a program of support in this area for all of this country, one can see why perhaps there are some shortcomings from certain regional points of view. But certainly, the government could not entertain the program that this government has urged upon it, because we just do not have the billions of dollars the government seems to think is needed for this program.

In fact, I think it is time now to take a rational look at the whole day care program and its delivery of same, because the Min ister referred to studies as to which was a a better form of delivery of the service, and, quite frankly, I don't think those studies have really compared apples and apples, but in providing apples and oranges. What are the true legitimate number of people out there who require spaces?

Is it everyone who has a child or Is it in fact a limited number and those same people are applying in different areas, in different day care centres, who, when totalled up, give you a number that is perhaps unreal? Maybe it is time that we review the whole program of delivery and take a look at possibly using our dollars a little wiser. The one thing that I found sadly lacking In the Speech from the Throne this year, though there was mention last year, was any attempt to deal with the concerns of the elderly. My leader, some three years ago, raised this question about the rights of seniors in this House.

At that time, the then Attorney-General said that they were well protected and that the Public Trustee had all of their concerns in hand. But unfortunately, as we continue to press -in fact we introduced a motion dealing with the rights of the elderly -it became clear that the government wanted to do something, and last year's Speech from the Throne indicated that there would be some rights and protections given to them. This year's Speech from the Throne was silent on that particular issue. Why?

I've recently done a survey of my constituents dealing with the whole issue of the elderly and the questions and concerns that they raise and bring forward to me are Indeed important. I think it points out the whole question of being sensitive to the needs of the elderly, whether they deal with abuse, 232 whether it's physical, financial, mental, the caring for them, the delivery of services for them, the question of housing, the question of providing services to them in their homes.

All of these are very sensitive and important, yet we have nothing on the Order Paper to indicate that some steps are going to be taken to alleviate or deal with some of their concerns. I would urge this government, if they're not prepared to, we certainly will, introduce some legislation to protect and guarantee the rights of the elderly.

I've had an opportunity to review The City of Winnipeg Act, recommended changes, that the Min ister of Urban Affairs has put forward, and it leads me into a rather interesting thought pattern, because it was constituted by a number of people to review the proceedings of the City of Winnipeg. All the people who took

part in that review, I respect highly. I question, though, whether or not the people who sat down and discussed and dissected the City of Winnipeg really understood how the City of Winnipeg operates today. The chairman, who sat as a member of City Council -his time goes back to when he was a member after amalgamation and dealt with the problems of consolidation -the gentleman, Mr. Macdonald, who was involved, also comes from that era of consolidation. The other academics who were involved in it are students of city government but have never participated in it.

Therefore, I find it very distressing to find and consider a recommendation being put forward by thi s government in its position paper that they develop some sort of party system or mayor-power at City Hall. What we have at City is a very delicate balance of powers, checks and balance, an organization that is sensitive, on balance, to the community needs, yet it is being interfered with by the Provincial Government, setting its priorities that impact on the city. The principle question that the review team came up with was the question of accountability.

The solution seems to be, well, let 's create a Mayor with his appointees to have a power structure down at City Hall. Well, this to me brings out the worst aspects of power politics at City Hall. I think of some of the old regimes, whether they be in Chicago under Mayor Daley, or even latterly under Drapeau in Montreal where the Mayor could appoint and control the levers of power down at City Hall. That is not, to my mind, accountability. Nor is it sensitive to the nature and needs of the commu nity.

So, therefore I would recommend that the government give serious consideration to ejecting this whole idea of Mayor-power down at City Hall, because I do not think it will serve the City of Winnipeg well, and in time if you have an entrenchment -and we seem to go for long-serving Mayors -it will give us a type of government that probably would not suit, in fact I would be willing to bet, that it will not give any benefit to the City of Winnipeg. But it's interesting that the government decided to deal with a review of the power structure and the delivery of service at the City of Winnipeg.

We also had, some three or four years ago, a reform of the parliamentary system in Ottawa. This reform gave more authority to the backbenchers in the government. lt created a parliamentary committee system.

Tueaday, 23 February, 11188 This system gave authority for bills to pass through and to be reviewed by these standing committees. lt allowed them to travel across the countr y and take public input. 1t also allowed them to have experts on staff and also to summon experts to give testimony before the Legislative Committees. These commi ttees have done a great job in a number of areas. So we've had a reform and a change of the power structure at the federal level, giving more input to the MP 's.

We are now looking at possible reform, and I have some qualifications on that at the City of Winnipeg, yet we have not grappled with the issue that I think is important to this Chamb er. lt is the reform of the power structure here. I would recommend that the government give serious consideration to a setting up of the same type of committee system here in the Province of Manitoba, staffing it on a regular basis, giving it standing authority throughout the year, giving it experts to call, and expert support people.

In this way, we can deal with matters on an annual basis that go beyond this Cham ber, and in fact we can be more current. The Ontario government has established a partial form of this commit tee structure, and in fact they have created their own permanent commit tee dealing with Crown corporations and the staffing of same.

In fact, they have gone as far as allowing these com mittees to review the appointments and comment on them, much like the American Congress system does in the United States, that any appointment to any chairman, or board of the Crown corporations, must first be reviewed and commented on by these commi ttees, and then passed on for approval or disapproval.

I would rec ommend that type of committee system be adopted here in the province because it brings me to two areas of concern I have that I don't think the province is being serviced well by this government: one area is in Meech Lake; the other area deals with the issue of free trade. Meech Lake was an attempt to draw the Government of Quebec, or the people of Quebec, into the Confederation network that we have called Canada. They refused to become a signatory of some earlier documents and it is symbolic that they be welcomed into the bond of Canada.

I think legally they were, but emotional ly, spiritually and any other way you want to look at it, they did not consider them selves part of Confederati on. This Meech Lake process of extending an invitation to Quebec to join us was long, went through several discussions, and the unfortunate thing was that we had a Premier who was on again/off again about this whole process; in fact , from my point of view, lacked leadership in attempting to grasp the concept and the whole idea behind Meech Lake.

Eighteen months later, we get something from the Speech from the Throne saying we will now be dealing with a commit tee - a commit tee that will have input - and it's almost a lukewarm endorsement of the Meech Lake proposal. Now there are some concerns being expressed about what Meech Lake does or doesn't do. If you were a Trudeauite who believes in a strong central government, then the Meech Lake Accord will give you problems. But is a strong central government the only basis on which this country can be governed?

Remem ber, his strong central government gave rise to the separation movement in the Provinc e of Quebec. He also dealt with the idea of "let you sell your own wheat in Wes tern Canada; we don't care." We also had the national energy policy dealing with a strong central gove rnment. Wel l, it's interesting. That so-called strong central government had no sensitivity for the various regions of this coun try. Anytime that you want to create problems, give all power to one and let it corrupt. We have economic matters; we have social matters; we have all kinds of concerns - a strong central government.

Who's to say that somet hing that was crafted a 100 years ago is fitting for today? There is an appearance of some shifting of powers under the Meech Lake Accord, and everyo ne is saying we are going to fall apart, there is going to be no more central government. This country of ours has a split ju risdiction - certain powers to the Federal Gover nment, certain to the province - and this has blurred from time to time. In attempting to accommodate a cultural group, mainly the Francophone community in our countr y, a hand was reached out.

Quite frankly, I was disappointed in our Premier in trying to water down his whole approach, his reluctance to become party to and strongly back the inclusion of the Francophones in the Canadian cultur e. For that, I was extremely disappointed. Now he has allowed 18 months to go by before we even attempt to come to grips with this issue; and, in fact, if some reports are believed, he's prepared to trade this particular document for something on free trade.

We ll, I am interested to know why he is prepared to trade off the rights of a certain group in our society for some economic gains on his own behalf or some political gains on his party's behalf. So I would recommend that if we'd had this strong parlia mentary comm ittee system, that Meech Lake Accord would have gone right to the committee. We could have then held hearings across the province; we could have had people come before us; we would have then had a vote in this Cham ber on the issues. Now we have this issue reluctantly being dragged in by this government . What are they afraid of?

I am disappointed because I th ink they are hur ting those in the Francophone community because of their reluctance to get involved with this issue. 233 The other area that seems to cause this government some great concern is the whole debate on free trade. I'm not one of those that see it as the panacea for all. I don't see it as the solution to every problem we have in Canada; nor do I see all the negatives that are being advanced on the other side. In fact, everyt ime a series of problems are raised, they are met and they are not resolved, or they are dealt with and they then go on to another area.

I'm surprised at this issue of free trade which was in the works for some two years. We asked for reports commissioned by the govern ment; we asked for studies done, polling done. This government did not produce them. We asked to have a standing committee prepared and hold hearings in the province. This government would not do it. If we'd had the change in comm ittee system and if we had some real courage from this gove rnment, they would have started this whole question of the free trade debate years ago - at least a year if not two years ago. Now the intriguing thing is we don't know why they are opposed to it.

There are no specific reasons for

Tuesday, 23 February, 1988 it. Some woul d say that it's a protection for Mr. Broadbent. I'm not prepared to go that far, bu t one wonders when they've had an opportunity for over two years to set out their reasons for opposing free trade HON. W. PARASIUK: We didn't know what the agreement was until Christmas. MR. A. DRIEDGER: it's on the Order Paper for tomorrow. MR. C. BIRT: it's on the Order Paper tod ay. But it's only be en in the works for some 18 months to two years. Ye t then we have here . . . A MEMBER: Oh, Charl ie, do you rememb er th e election, the last federa l electi on?

SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. C. BIRT: Oh, they're now squirming be cause suddenly it's their only reaso n for opposing this. A MEMBER: Don't you talk about bringing something in that wasn 't mentioned on the platform. MR. C. BIRT: That's right. Let's talk about 4,000 positions in day care. After the el ection only 400 were announc ed and they said, wel l, it wil l take us a decade to provide it, we need federa l funding, and sudden ly the ba ck pedal l ing that went on. So le t's not hear about what was discussed in the election or not. After the el ection, the issue of free trade was a serious question.

The Minis ter was invol ved in it on several occasions throughout this. And who was afraid to discuss it? The Min ister across; every Minis ter. They're afraid of themselves. I read one sect ion from the Speech from the Throne. lt says they be lieve this deal, which is the Mulroney dea l , will have significant impacts on Canadian cult ure, our cultural sovereignty, and our national identity . Tariffs have bee n reduced in this country in the la st 40-odd years from 100 percent down to 20 percent. We're dealing with the abolition of some 20 percent of the tariffs.

We're talk ing about trying to prevent the imposition of tariffs·and countervail duties. And in this time, our culture has flourished. We're not American. Individuals who have bee n trained and raised in Canada are creating bo oks, plays, film work, and they're be ing supported by the public, whether it be through tax doll ars or through straight financial contrib utions through the purchase of their work. They are flourishing. In fact, they are just be ginning to take off. This will not be hurt. I can't see why anyone would say we're second­ class.

We can't afford to trust those people to continue to have an input into the improvement of our cul tural life. I'm very dis appointed that the government has refused to involve the public in any meanin gful way in this whole issue of free trade be cause it has an impact, it wil l have an impact, bu t it will not have the devastat ing impact that the government see ms to think it will have. The Me mber for Kildonan says which government ? it's the government that he's be en a memb er of. it's 234 be en afraid to involve itse l f in discussions with the public since Day One.

In fact, his own leader has be en vacillating ba ck and forth: I'm for it; I'm against it; maybe. We ll , who knows. That is not le adership; it's an abdication of respon sibility. Madam Speaker, in closing, there are a number of issues in the fie l d of education that I woul d li ked to have dea l t with, bu t I will save that for another day. lt is just that I woul d like to say in passing that there are a great many prob lems facing the field of education . it 's time for some fundamenta l changes. I had hoped that the High School Review woul d be making some solid rec ommendations in that area.

We ll , from what I'm hearing, it's a li ttle disappointing and I don't think we're going to come to grips with the whole issue of "what does the public want" as far as the publ ic educationa l system is concerned. I will wait for the final report, bu t from what I'm hea ring, I'm a li ttle disappointed that they're not prepared to come to grips with the whole field of educa tion.

This government is not looking at a nationa l or provincial research policy as it rel ates to our institutions, whether they be at the university or otherwise. lt is not lo oking at the whole que stion of educationa l funding and the role that the land-base tax system will play or should play. - (Interjection ) - We ll , the Minis ter of Education says we're lo oking at both of them. In fact, that's be en the same response that every Minis ter has given since this government was el ected in 1981. In closing, Madam Speaker, I drove some 200 km. to be present for the read ing of the Speech from the Throne.

In fact, I had to exceed the spee d li mit on occasion to make it tiere on time. - (Interject ion) - Well , in this room, we're sacrosanct, we can make these admissions, and they'll not be hel d against us. The question I had to ask mys el f, after 45 minutes of the pomp and ceremo ny, was that perhaps if they had mailed it to me, I might have be en able to enjoy it where I was be cause it certain l y was not worth the effort of even the li mited number of guests coming here. lt reall y represented an abdication of - rea ll y no indication of - where this government is going.

In fact, their whol e idea is if you can't do anything positive, le t's bl ame someone el se. lt rea ll y was a pity that they didn't mail a copy of the speech to everyo ne and have saved us a lot of time, trou bl e and expense for showing up to listen to a rather disappointing document. Thank you. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Agriculture. HON. L. HAPAPIAK: Thank you, Madam Speaker.

I am pleased to have this opportunity to participate in the deb ate on the Throne Speech; and given that a decision was rendered last night on the amendment, I only have to address myse l f as to the question of speaking in support of the Throne Speech. I think this is an important opportunity, Madam Speaker, to set on the record my comments with regard to the record of this government and the path that has be en charted through the Throne Speech. I must indicate that perhaps I should rest rain my comments sl ightly and soothe some of the wounds that

Tuesday, 23 February, 1988 were inflicted by the members opposite - by the Member for Dauphin - last night. Having been subjected to that verbal lashing, Madam Spea ker, and subsequently having come to grips with the reality that they could not topple this government as they had been indicating, they are In somewhat of a depressed mood today. So I will restrain my comments to a degree.

Madam Speaker, again, I am pleased to be able to represent the concerns of the constitu ency of Swan River In this Legislature. lt is a constituenc y of which I am very proud, because in many ways it represe nts features of the entire province. lt is a constituency whose economy is diversified, built on agriculture and the natural resource base, and indeed, the heritage of people is, as well, very diverse. lt is that strength that comes from the diversity of its people and the natural resources of the ecomomy , of the area, which makes it just an excellent area In which to live.

I think it is very much, as I said, typical of the community of the province at large.

Madam Speaker, the Throne Speech, as I said, indica ted a direction that I, as the MLA for Swan River and as a mem ber of this government, am very comfortable with. lt's a direction that I think most Ma nltobans would want us to follow. it's a direction, Madam Speaker, that they would want from a sensitive, responsible government, indicating our concern about health care, indicating our concern about an economy which is built on a sound cooperation between the private sector, the public sector and the cooperative sector . 1t is an economy , Ma dam Speak er, which objective observers, people who are not politically aligned with this party have recognized, is an economy which leads much of Canada and it will continue to do so.

I want to focus my comments to some extent, Madam Speaker, in the area of agriculture. I am pleased to be able to have these new respo nsibilities in this the Third Sess ion, Madam Speaker, having enjoyed the opportunity to deal with issues of Natural Resources. I am pleased to see them now in the capable hands of the Member for Dauphin, but If I do have any regret it is that I will no longer have the Mem ber for Emerson as my critic. I say that, Madam Speaker, if there is any doubt, in the complime ntary fashion. lt seems to be misund erstood by the Member for Emerson.

I truly enjoyed working with the Mem ber for Emer son, disa greeing with him on a number of occasions and I hope that the Member for Virden can provide the kind of challenge that the Member for Emerson did. (Mr . Acting Speaker, C. Baker, in the Chair .) Agriculture in Manitoba is Indeed an Important part of the economy. lt is di ffe rent in many respects than the agricultural economy of some of our neighbouring provinces, particularly as you look to the provi nces to the west, of the agricultural economy of Saskatchewan, and the agricultural economy of Alberta.

Agriculture in Manitoba Is very much diversified, and that has been a strength of the agricultural economy in Ma nitoba. lt is built on various sectors, taking advantage of the natural features of the province in terms of the natural resource base, the soils and the climatic conditions that we have, growing grains and oi lseeds in some portions, relying on livestock production in others and looking to special crops in other areas. 235 Given that particular blend, we have been able to withstand some of the swings that have occurred in the agricultural inco mes of other pro vin ces .

None theless, even with that diversity , there has beer. a cyclical element in the income of Manitoba farmers, as has been the case of farm incomes throughout Canada. But we in Manitoba have been able to enjoy some of the benefits that come with that diversity because when one sector is down, another sector would be up and there would be a balancing that would take place.

I want to share with the members in this House - just to illustrate that point - that if we look at the year of 1986, the average farm income in Manitoba was in excess of $18,000 compared to Saskatchewan with an average farm income of slightly in excess of .$1 2,000 and that of Alberta slightly in excess of $13,000.00. Now when we go to 1987, there was a slight reduction in Manitoba's income to $17,7 42, but still in excess of the average farm inc ome of Saskatchewan at $16,700 and that of Alberta at $15,100.0 0. I share that information, Mr.

Acting Speaker, and I wish to have it read into the record to point out that that is often overlooked in the debate that takes place, and the statistics that are quoted in various locations, sometimes erroneous information passed out to indicate that the farmers of Manitoba are doing well relative to the farmers in our neighbouring jurisdictions. That is not to suggest In any way, Mr. Acting Speake r, that we are satisfied with those levels of income.

We must all work to ensure that there is an adequate return to the farming community and as we look at the community of Manitoba at this point in time we see some sectors where there is a record high level of return. If you look, Mr. Acting Speaker, at the sector dealing with the cow-c alf operators, that sect or has not in history realized the kinds of return that they are realizing at this moment in time. As we look at the benefits of diversity, Mr.

Acting Speaker, I think it is clearly demonst rated that there are sect ors that are doing well, but at the same time we recognize that there are sect ors that are indeed facing severe difficult y, and that of course would be the grains and the oilseeds sector, which . is being subjected to significant pressures from the international market. But we are encou raged by what we see in terms of suppo rt programs from the federal level. it is generally accepted that in terms of · supporting the pric e of agricultural commodities, that that is where it should be.

The reason for taking that position, and it's one that I'm comfortable with, is given that the benefits of agriculture accrue to the entire economy, then if there is need from time to time to support those prices, surely then the cost should be spread over the broadest possible tax base, which would be the national tax base. lt dist resses me, Mr. Acting Speaker, to hear from time to time, the members opposite suggesting that what we should in fact be doing is welcoming with open arms the opportunity to be participants in the tripartite programs.

Now we have been put in the position where, due to the insensitivity of the Federal Government in not wanting to see sectors fail, we have stood by the farmers of Manitoba. But the members opposite, when they

Tuesday, 23 February, 1 988 say that we should fur ther relieve the Federal Government of its responsibility with respect to price support are saying in the same breath, though rather quietly, that what we should be doing is putting it to, or socking it to the provincial taxp ayer, rather than relying on the national tax base. Mr. Acting Speaker, I have great difficulty with that kind of logic. What they are saying is let's be apologists for the federal level that is backing away from its responsibility and shift that on to the provincial tax base.

I want to state categorically that I disagree with that kind of an approach. As we look at other sectors, Mr. Acting Speaker, I think the future of Manitoba agriculture is indeed bright. I am pleased that we were able to include in the Throne Speech, Mr. Acting Speaker, a commitment from this government, supported by mem bers from this side - and I want to acknowledge the input of the Mini ster responsible for Industry, Trade and Technology - in bringing forward a combined approach which would recognize that the benefits of agriculture go far beyond the farm gate.

We want to see that there would be further benefits for the processing industry in Manito ba. We recognize that there was a problem in the feed lot sector currently not being available to those producers who did not have their own cow herd. We have to recognize, we must recognize, that 75 percent of the cow herd in Manitoba - it was as high as 80 percent, I think it's 75 percent of the cow herd - is enrolled in the Manitoba beef plan. Therefore, 75 percent of the production is really eligible for a feedlot program, if you like, or a finishing program.

They are eligible for stabilization on fat cattle if, in fact, they chose to exercise that option. Given the programs that were put in place in our neighbouring jurisdictions, many of the calves were being bought at very attractive prices in Manitoba and the benefit of that was accruing to the cow-calf prod ucer. So, what we have, in fact, Mr. Acting Speaker, is the cow-calf producers in Manitoba enjoying some record high prices because the producers in some of the other jurisdictions were prepared to pay these extremely high prices for calves.

We are not content to stand by and see the loss of those animals and we've committed ourselves to putting in place a stabilization program which will see a greater degree of finishing in Manitoba. I know, Mr. Actipg Speaker, that there was some cont roversy in the previous year on the matter of premiums charged to the plan.

I would ask members opposite that they reflect on their comments of last year - in light of some of the suggestions that are being made - that in another stabilization program hand led by the Federal Government, that there's some indi cation of some very significant increases in premiums and, given their comments of the previous year, it will be interesting to see how they respond to what might be coming in that area.

I want to talk about the issue of trade because that is an issue that has been highlig hted in the Throne Speech. lt is an issue that we have worked on with the public of Manitoba to ensure that they have information available, and I was surprised to hear the member opposite suggest that what we had done was failed in some way to make that information available to the public. lt should be clearly un derstood that this is an initia tive of the Federal Government, a deal being 236 proposed by the Prime Mini ster of Canada and jointly with the President of the United States.

If it is the Federal Government's deal, surely the responsibility for putting the information out, to have the public understand the deal, would rest squarely on the shoulders of the proponents of the deaL There was clear in dication from the public of Manitoba that they did not have sufficient information and, again, we were not prepared to stand by and let the chips fall where they may. We said that, given that shortfall on the part of the Federal Government, we would provide the information that we had.

We would enter into dialogue with the public to ensure that they had a basis on which to make a decision and to provide some feedback to the Federal Government. We undertook a round of public meetings for which we were criticized by the members opposite. They said, on the one hand, there is not sufficient information; then, when we undertook the public meetings, they said we are taking out a road show. Only a few days ago, the members opposite were suggesting that what we were doing is spending too much money in terms of making this information available.

Little do they say about the millions of dollars being spent by the Federal Government to promote their point of vi ew. Little do they say about the Government of Saskatchewan and the promotion that has been done in that province. Given my riding, which borders Saskatchewan, we are subjected to information by way of the media, the electronic media and the print media, wherein the Government of Saskatchwan praises the initiative of the Federal Government with respect to free trade. I would at any time be prepared to compare the expenditure on promotion or of discussion on this issue with Saskatchewan and Manitoba.

I think clearly, we in Manitoba, would be the lo sers in that. The Government of Saskatchewan would have spent far, far more in that. If I recall correctly, Mr. Acting Speaker, the Federal Government spent some 12 million on the ini tial publication of materials related to this initiative. This is an important issue, Mr. Acting Speaker. There are some who would want to stand back from it and say, this is a political issue and we should discuss it only on economic grounds.

I will be quite prepared - I have been quite prepared - to enter into debate on it; and I don't apologize for addressing it as a political issue because that is indeed what it is. lt is a major policy proposal by the Federal Government which has impli cations for the future of Canada. I don't mind, for one moment, stating that I do have a vision of Canada which does not coincide with the vision or the future of Canada that I see being Influenced by this particular agreement.

Our position, I believe, has been misunderstood, because in questioning it there are those who would suggest that what we are doing is opposing trade. Trade is clearly impo rtant for Mani toba. And again, the Mi nister of Ind ustry, Trade and Technology heads a department where one of their prim ary initia tives is to secure additional trade opportunit ies. My own department has a branch, the marketing branch, which pursues trade opportunit ies. We have been very successful in that respect, Mr. Acting Speaker. I think it is incorrect for members opposite to suggest,

Tuesday, 23 February, 1888 because we question the specific proposal that is before us, we are opposed to trade. Nothing could be further from the truth. Let me share some information with you, Mr. Acting Speaker. and other members of this House, information which will show that this is not a concern that we alone have as the Government of Manitoba. I want to share with you some information which relates specifically to this portfolio, to the important Indus try of agriculture. There is a particular

section in the document, and mem bers opposite have this document, it's

section 701. 3. The Canadian Egg Marketing agency wrote to the Federal Minister seeking clarification on what exactly was the meaning of that se ction, which, and let me quote to you, states that neither part y, including any public entity that is established or maintains, shall sell agricultural goods for export to the territory or of the other party at a price below the acquisition price of the goods, plus any storage, handling, or other costs incurred by it with respect to those goods. The Canadian Egg Marketing Agency said, "Cl arify for us, Mr.

Federal Minister, what this really means, because from time to time we acquire surplus eggs and we do sell them at less than our cos t." They wanted to know. Now, let me share with all members, Mr. Acting Speaker, this bold response from the Federal Minis ter which demons trates clearly that this issue has not been thought through by many departments of government as has been demo nstrated only yesterday by concerns related to the clothing sector. But this is the response, Mr. Acting Speaker, to the reinquiry from the Canadian Egg Marketing Age ncy.

Listen to the courage. lt says - and this is the Federal Minis ter - "At this juncture, it is probably best if the visibility of this issue is kept low. A request for an exchange of letters with the United States would only raise the profile of the issue and may prompt a negative response. Mor eover, as Mike Gifford suggested to you earlier, it is not clear whether CEMA's current export pricing practice would be conside red to be a breach of the relevant free trade provisions.

You may, therefore, wish to consider continuing operations as in the past, but give some thought as to how you could mod ify your operations in the future." We ll, let me say to you, we suggest the working committees - Mr. Acting Speaker, the inquiry from the Canadian Egg Marketing Agency is dated in Febru ary, though I thought the work of the agency has been done.

I think what this demonstrates very clearly that in their rush to put together an agreement, which I maintain was designed primarily to save the political hide of the Prime Minister and the federal Conservative Party, it was rushed into without clear consideration of what would be happening elsewhere. lt is a concern, not only a concern to the producers of eggs.

Let me share with you a letter from the Dairy Farmers of Canada that says that the Dairy Farmers of Canada wrote to the Premiers of all of the provinces indicating their concern. lt says - and I will be quite prepared to table the document: "The removal of all tariffs will create a serious gap in the underpinnings of the Canadian Milk Supply Management Program, and the action must be taken to close this gap before the agreement is signed." - (Interjecti on) - Let me say that I heard members opposite suggest , well, maybe we shouldn't be so concerned about those involved in supply management.

Wel l, 10 percent of the farm income in Manitoba is from supply-mana ged commodities. What they seem to be sugges ting, and I would be surprised, particularly the Member for Emers on's, the Mem ber for La Vere ndr ye's constituencies, in which there is a concent ration of those particular commodities, that they would stand by when members opposite suggest that what we can do is write off that particular sector. They have no concerns. 237 Now, Mr.

Acting Speaker, if what they could do is demonstrate to me that there were some advantages to be gained and that they would be prepared to sacrifice the suppl y-managed commodities, then I'd be prepared to look at it. But what are those? What is to be gained? What are they going to gain in the hog market? Ye s, we could ask the hog producers. We cou ld ask Mr. Bill Vaags; we have asked Bill Vaags. We have asked Bill Vaags to clarify what this means. We asked Bill Vaags to clarify why was pork excluded from the definition of red meat. lt was not there.

He could not provide us with an answer and we still await an explanation of that. Mr. Act ing Speaker, we are now acc essing that market very well. lt is an important market and we've never suggested that we should somehow give up that market. We are doing very well in that market without a free trade agreement. We are doing well in that market even with a countervail. The countervail exists. There is no indic ation that when the free trade agreement is signed that the coun tervail will be removed. That is all still going to be in place.

There is nothing to indicate that they will not initiate new countervaii measures. Then in the area of grains, what will happen as a consequence of this agreement? We hear from a meeting in Winnipeg that the Canadian Wheat Board is viewed by some of the observers in the U.S. as being a su bsidy. Clearly if the only view that those observers have is that this is a subsi dy, I think that raises some very serious questions as to what the role of the Wheat Board will be in the future. I do not apologize for one moment, Mr.

Acting Speake r, for suggesting that what we should be doing is working very hard to retain those approaches to marketing, the Canadian Wheat Board Supply and Management, to bring stabilit y, to retain stabil ity, as has inde ed been brought by these particular agencies. But what we have is some of the members opposite and their federal counterparts who are saying let's thr ow it out to the market, let the market determine what is best. Let the market determine what is best for the Canadian farmer.

Why was the Canadian Wheat Board put in place? lt was put in place because farmers were being taking advantage of and members opposite will know full well the history of that particular issue and they need not be reminded of it. What we see by their particular approach is a diminished role for some orderly mechanisms. lt is correct that the agreement states that they can retain the supply and management organizations. lt states that they can in fact introduce new ones.

But having them there as nominal agencies with a diminished role, I maintain will not serve the interests of the farmer, and clearly there is indication on the part of those who are involved. I want to indicate that for our part we think it's a firm position to be taken, that we should

Tuesday, 23 February, 1988 understand very clearly what the impact will be before an agreement of this magnitude is entered into. I want to comment briefly on the question of tripartite participation. Again, there have been some sugges tions that we are not prepared to become involv ed in tripartite. As I said earlier , we feel very strongly that the re sponsibility for price support rests with the Federal Government. Therefore, we will resist them offloading to the provincial tax payer. But we are involved in tripartite.

We are involved in tripartite in hogs, we are involved in tripartite in sugar beets, and we feel that the final stages of concluding an agreement will see our participation. We offered to participate in the bean program to provide stabili zation but the Federal Government is yet to agree to the terms that have been provided. So our position is clearly on the record. I want to address as well the issue of plant patent legislation, Mr. Acting Speaker. We have, on this side, said that we have to concern ourselves with input costs, and we are attempting to address that.

Again, as a combined initiative with Indus try, Trade and Tec hnology, we announced only last week that we were entering into a contract with UMA Engi neering to look at the que stion of a generic Roundup, if you like, to make the active ingredient of glyp hosate available to farmers at a much reduced rate. 1t is interesti ng to note, Mr.

Acting Speaker, that I had a call from the media and the media was indicating to me that the response from the company currently manufacturing that product was that the province should n't concern itself because when the patent expired, the price would come down because others would be entering into it. We ll, clearly, what are they indicating? They are indicating there is room for the price to come down. They are indicating that what the farmers are being cha rged now is not a function of cost of production, but it is a function of what will the market bear given that they have a monopoly.

I was not surprised because I really didn't expect that we would receive much encouragement from the company currently manufacturing that product. But I think it is an initiative that will serve the farmers well. Now that is not unrelated to the question of plant patent legislation, legislation that was introduced at the federal level previously by a Liberal Government and withdrawn, and now being . brought forward by a Conservative Government. I maintain, Mr.

Acting Speak er, that this has as much potential for saving money for the farmers as did Bill C-22 have the potential to save money for the consumers of pharmaceutical drugs. What we are seeing, and there is in a sense a contradiction, we have the Senate calling for a reduction in the length of the patent on farm chemicals and we have legislation being proposed which would bring forward patent legislation for seeds and plants. I think this has not hin g positive to serve the farming community, Mr. Acting Speaker. lt will serve only to increase their cost of input by way of royalties on seeds and plants.

In addition, what it will do, through rest ricting the number of outlets through which the suppli es of these are available, is it will reduce the competitiveness. We, on this side, maintain that the question of plant breed ing should remain in the public domain and it is through public funding that we should continue that kind of effort. 238 The final area that I want to comment on, Mr. Acting Speaker, is the question of the Rural Development Institute.

I was pleased that we were able to provide in the Throne Speech again an indication that we will be entering into an agreement with Brandon University for a Rural Development Institute. I think it is an int eresting approach which is being mocked by members on the other side. I don't think that they respect the need for input from the public.

What we are saying is that the Rural Development Institute with the Brandon University, which is highly regarded as having close conta ct with the rural commun ity, will be used as a vehicle through which there will be opportunity for the public at large to provide input into questions of policies of an economic and a social nature which will lead to shaping rural Manitoba in the future, because we rec ognize fully that though agriculture provides the framework over which much of what happens in rural Manitoba is built, the needs of people in rural Manitoba go far beyond that. lt is for that reason I am proud that the re was reference in the Throne Speech to the question of health care in rural Manitoba.

There is need to add ress other issues of social services in rural Manitoba in the long term. The demographics of rural Manitoba are changing, Mr. Acting Speak er, and we feel that there should be an opportunity for people in rural Manitoba to participate in shaping those policies that will give direction to all of society in the longer term. Re sidents in rural Manitoba have a clear understanding of the needs of their commun ities. They should be provided with an additional forum in which to communicate those needs. In conclusion, Mr.

Acting Speaker, I want to indicate that I'm pleased to be able to participate in the Throne Speech Deba te. I look forward to other issues that we will have to address during the course of this Session, and I'm particularly pleased to be able to speak to the issues related to agriculture, which forms the backbone of much of what happens in Manitoba. Thank you very much. MR. ACTING SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Virden. MR. G. FINDLAY: Mr. Acting Speaker, the Min ister, in his present ation, indicated that he would table the two documents he read from. I would like to ask him to do that at this time. MR.

ACTING SPEAKER: The Honourable Minis ter. HON. L. HARAPIAK: Mr. Acting Speaker, I have the documents here; I will have them copied and tabled - the one concerned about the impact on their industry, the concern of the dairy farmers; and the concern, a document which indicates that the average income of Manitoba farmers is higher than that of Saskatchewan and Al berta. I will also table a document which indicates that the level of the per-farm expenditure in Manitoba is higher in Saskatchewan and that over the last three years the level of expenditure in Manitoba has increas ed.

In the last th ree years, it has decreased in Saskatchewan and in Alberta. I will copy them and table them.

Tuesday, 23 February, 1988 MR. G. FINDLAY: Would the Mi nister entertain a question? HON. L. HARAPIAK: Sure, I will. MR. G. FINDLAY: Mr. Acting Spea ker, the Minister indicated that 75 percent of the cow herd in Manitoba was stabilized through the Beef Commission. Given 180 thousand calves ha ve left the province out of approximately 280,000-300,000 calves raised In this province, I wonder if the Minis ter would tell us what percent of the total calf crop is actually stabilized through to market? HON. L. HARAPIAK: Mr. Acting Speaker, 75 percent of the production is eligible for stabilization.

For every one who is enrolled, they are eligible for stabillzation at different levels. The operators can choose to sell those at different levels. They can sell them as calves; they can sell them as yearl ings or they can sell them as finished calves. That was in the design of the original plan, that the farmer would have the flexibility to sell the animals at any one of those three stages of production. That is still there.

Clearly , what has happened - in the last year in particular, and it began the year previo us - is that those operators were choosing to exercise their option to sell as calves, because the prices were so attractive. What we have proposed by way of the feed lot plan is to bring another feature to the plan which will provide an option for those who do not have their own cow herds. And I could just share with the member that, I believe today, we just received the federal statistics on livestock on farms and in the different stages of production. I could share that document with him as well.

I think it will show, Mr. Acting Speaker , that the figures of the movement of cattle from Manitoba to our neighboring jurisdictions has not been as significant as has been suggested. lt is significant, but I think the figures that have been used have been somewhat exaggerated. MR. ACTING SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. D. ROCAN: Thank you, Mr. Acting Speaker. I welcome the opportunity of addressing the Third Session of the Thirty-Third Legislature.

My fres hman speech outlin es th e privileges of repres enting the constituency of Turtle Mountain for the first time. lt was with great anticipation and much · promise that I felt very confident that my constituents would be well repres ented. In my sophomore year, I was a little less naive, recognizing that not all promises are meant to be carried out. Now, as I enter my third year, I would have liked to have been able to bring congratulations from my constituents to the Government of Manitoba. However , there is nothing to congratulate them for.

They have promised every thing and they have deliv ered nothing and it has cost everybody some thing. What kind of government is this? What am I supposed to do? Congratulate them for the massive losses in MTX, the total disarray at the Workers Compensation and the losses that have been incurred there, the 239 increases in the Autopac rates? Mr. Acting Speaker, if congratulations are in order, let me offer my sincere congratulations to a government that has totally mismanaged the affairs of this province. Outstanding examples of this ineptitude are MTX, WCB, MPIC, to name just a few for starters.

I can only report that my constitutents are very impressed with this gove rnment's track record. The light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming freight train, and what a bright future that spells. The people that I represent are tired of being described as ordinary. They are unique individuals, each with a contribution to make. They are being hampered or hinde red by a narrow-minded, short-sighted group of individuals who hold on to power by appealing to the herd instinct - cataloguing their flock as ordinary.

Even the gays don't consider thems elves out of this flock, thanks to this governm ent's point of view. Not only are they bankrupt in the financial sense, but they are comple tely bankrupt of ideas, morals, scruples, ethics and so on. Only in this government does incompetence pay rich rewa rds. Patronage, I can unde rstand; stupidity, I cannot. What has the Throne Speech given me? What do 1 have to take back to my constituents to cause them to be positive about their future? The answer, simply put, is nothing.

Is there nobody on the other side of this Chamber that understands what reality is, what their behavior is doing to all of us? Programs designed to make work and deliver very little mean nothing to people living outside the Perimeter. Those people do understand tha t to do these th ings on borrowed money will ultimately lead to disaster. This NDP Government is like a granola bar - some fruit, some nuts and the rest flakes. From my constituents' point of view, mismanagement is a key problem. Taxpayers are being expected to willingly fund stupidity.

A litany of examples includes Limestone, MTX, WCB, M PlC, and the list goes on and on. The Mem ber for the lnterlake would like to soar like an eagle, but he and his cronies are still turkeys. The public can't be fooled any longer. · Mr. Acting Speaker, the Premier of this province has em barked on a campaign to discredit the Free Trade Agreement, only to deflect criticism from various government departments whose mismanagement has become obvious to the people of Manitoba. Give it up, Mr. Premier. People want accou ntability and some actions, not your worn-out bafflegab. Do Manitobans a favour and step down.

A profes sional athlete is encouraged to know that he should quit before he experiences a serious decline of his talents. This case is different. The First Mi nister never had any talents. People of Manitoba at some point thought that they were doing some thing right by electing the NDP. Never did they consider that their great -grandchil dren would be paying the price for that mistake. Your spending spree has touched the pocket books of every Manitoban to the point where we are regarded by some as a Third World province. We thank you from the bottom of our empty pockets.

In the Throne Speech, there was reference to the procurement policies of the Federal Government. Mr. Acting Speaker, I'd like to list a few of those. I happen to get a subscription to Supply and Services. For the

TuNdey, 23 February, 1818 month of January - (I nterjection)- you got that right, Dave-rocket launchers, Mr. Acting Speaker, awarded to Bristol Aerospace, $3,407,993 - (Interjection) - you got that right, there's more to come, Vie - crude degummed canola oil, contractor-CSB Foods, Winnipeg, $845,570; space heaters. Mr. Acting Speaker -and these are some of the best space heaters in Ma nitoba -contractor-Aerotech International, $87,160 - and the list goes on, Mr .

Acting Sp eaker -publ icat ions, contractor-Kromar Printing, $74,828; Kromar Printing again, $66,063; a preliminary list of electors - and that we thought for sure we'd use after last night -Kromar Printing, $55,1 95.00. The Minister of Industry and Trade should be interested in this one, Passive Solar Design Seminars, In creasing Prairie Provinces Design Awareness, E.J. Fiorucci (phonetic) and Associates of Winnipeg, $63,284.00. Mr. Acting Speaker, there is even more here again.

Publi c Opinion Su rvey, The Future of Canad ian Transportation -this one, we gave it to the Grits - Angus Reid and Associates, $64,950; Extreme Cold Parkas, Peerless Garments, $782,270; sleeping bag components, G Ill Ltd., $403.62; military tents, canvas sections, Manta Industries, $96,20 1. 00. Mr. Acting Speaker, now we'll come to regional procurements. I've got lots of them. We've got these guys dumping ail over the feds, but there's never anybody congratulating them.

Data processing equipment, Digital Equipment, $80, 173; office furniture, Business Furnishings, $47,090; manufacture of prototype and production unit - (Inaudible) - Mr. Acting Speaker, custom stainless, $40,000.00. And here's one we gave to a Liberal candidate, Gaber's Farm Equipment in Roblin for a grind er, $19 ,200.00. So, Mr. Acting Speaker, we look after everybody. Also, a communique from Public Works Canada, now this one I'm very proud of. lt's going to the construction of research station Agriculture Canada, $12 ,050,000 in the town of Morden.

Harbour Development Fisheries and Oceans, Norco Industries, and this, in the constituency of the Member for Gimli, who last Thursday stood up and condemned the feds, and yet they have just finished spending $362,04 1. 00. Another one in the same constituency, Float Wharf Construction, Fisheries and Oceans, Cheyenne Construction, Arborg, $87,095.00. Mr. Acting Speaker, my constituents and I find one policy of the government which was not indicated in the Throne Speech per se, but was announced recently by the Mi nister of Health to be repug nant and unacceptable and that is a question of abortion. Mr.

Acting Sp eaker, it is my position and that of a considerable number of my constituents who do not support abortion on demand, and I, for one, feel that the government is in no position to finance abortion on demand in the Province of Manitoba. I would seriously ask the Minister of Health to review his decision. I feel that the position taken by Saskatchewan and British Columbia and others in which they will only fund abortion when it endangers the life of a mother is in my opinion a correct and responsible response to this question. 240 Mr. Acting Speaker, I'd like to draw your attention to an

article done by one Louise Shanahan in Our Family. I'd like to quote, Mr. Acting Speaker: "There is, first of all, profound disillusion with political leaders who've set themselves up as gods and give lip service to Christian morality, but who, in an effort to capture votes and enjoy continuing political power, do nothing to prevent the violent spread of government sponsored via tax dol lars, abortion on demand, homosexual rights, etc." In lieu of that article, Mr.

Acting Speaker, how can the Minister of Agriculture, the Member for Swan River; the Mini ster of Government Services, the Member for The Pas; and the Minister of the Environment, the Member for Radisson, sit there and do exactly as Ms. Shanahan indicates is being done by some politicians, namely, expounding a Christian belief, yet at the same time sit and do nothing to stop these devastating murders from taking place? M. le Depute, serait cela une des principales raisons qui ont force l'ancien Mini stre de la Sante a resigner son poste? M. le Depute, nous connaissons tous tres bien, M. Desjardins.

J'aimerais ajouter que c'est peut­ etre le seul Ministre qui jouissait du support de la confiance et du respect de tout les membres des deux bords de la Chambre. Peut on etre veritablement surpris qu'il se soit incapable de continuer a oeuvrer au sein d'un parti qui affiche un manque serieux de competence et d'honnetete? Non, M. le Depute, 11 ne pouvrait se le permettre et je le respect d'avoir pris cette decision. Votre parti, M. le Premier Mini stre, ne peut guere se permettre de ne pas remplacer M. Desjardins, car vous avez grandement besoin de quelqu'un dans votre parti qui possedera comme M.

Desjardins de bon gros bon sens et un sens d'honnetete et de franchise. Faites vite, M. le Premier Min istre, car votre pauvre parti flechi de plus en plus et tel le vieux guerrier, il se volt maintenant depasser par cette lutte qui devra entonner. Vous avez un serieux probleme d'un manque de confiance dans votre parti. Saisisser done cet occasion pour demontrer aux Manitobains que vous etes sincere en declarant une election a St. Boniface des maintenant. (English translation will appear in a subsequent issue.) Mr.

Acting Speaker, the remarks from the Member for Kildonan, the click click clickety click of his jackboots from the Brooklyn Dodger or, namely, the Member for Kildonan, his remarks to the effect that if they had a majority of 10 or more seats he would have kicked the Member for St. Vital 10 times around this building for giving constructive criticism. Well, Mr. Acting Speaker, I'm also giving constructive criticism. And am I to expect the same treatment from the Member for Kildonan, who it seems is pretty brave when talking about a smaller person?

Is this how this government would treat Manitobans if they had a 10 -seat majority? Mr . Acting Sp eaker, I'm here representing my constituents, and if the Member for Kildonan figures that he can use his strong-arm tactics on any one of my constituents, God help him, for I am slightly bigger than the Member for St. Vital.

Tueeday, 23 February, 1988 Mr. Acting Speaker , you know when you've lost the confidence of the people when people start laughing at you. Take this for example. We all watch the odd movie now and again, but this one's called the Manitoba NDP, Holl ywood North. Hollywood film producers have much in common with the NDP; they both peddle dreams. Reality Is definitely not a consideration. However, the things that appear on the silver screen seldom wash in reality. The NDP never wants to be concerned with reality, continue to forge ahead. I'd like to give you a little sample of some of their more recent productions.

Mr. Acting Speaker, I'm sure you've seen the movie "Exodus": producer, the former Minister of Labour, the Member for St. James. You got to picture this, Mr. Acting Speaker. You got a giant supermarket chain, Wes tfair Foods of Winnipeg, and it is seriously considering moving Its corporate head office to a less hos tile environment, Calgary, Alber ta. The move would cost the Manitoba economy 400 jobs. The question of moving arose about a year ago during a strike with the Manitoba Food and Com mercial Workers last summer.

The company believes the NDP Government introduced legislation during the strike providing for final offer selection, solely for the union president, Bernle Chrlstophe. Mr. Acting Speaker, under the terms of final offer selec tion, a union can demand that an arbitrator pick the last offer of either management or labour before a strike began. Management can only make the same demand with the union's approval. Add to this the payroll taxes and the hassle of dealing with an anti­ free enterprise government, and it's no wonder We stfair is considering a move to Tory Alberta. Mr.

Acting Speaker, here's another one, "A Man Called Intrepi d": producer, our First Minister; eo­ prod ucer, the former Attorney-General, the Member for Fort Rouge. Way back In 1983, then Attorn ey­ General first circulated a draft Freedom of Information Act. Remember all that? The act was passed more than two-and-a-half years ago, which means it now only needs an official proclamation to make it law. The NDP Government has consistently promised to proclaim the act at several stages since it was passed.

While the Provincial Government is hesitant to pass its own act, th e First Minister freely uses information acquired through the federal Access to Information Act whenever it suits his purpose. Ask this government what it's doing with its act, and you get the runaround. Mr. Acting Speaker, here's another one: Chitty-Ch itty Bang-Bang, producer-the NDP Manitoba government. The NDP first came in power in 1969 after promising a government takeover of auto insurance. This much­ ballyhooed initi ative has finally come back to haunt the NDP Government. Right Harry?

Just last month, the Manitoba Government announced an average incr ease of 24 percent in auto insurance rates. While provincial officials argue that Autopac rates are among the lowest in the country, other surveys suggest that the premiums for a Winnipeg driver are higher than those paid by motorists In Calgary and Ottawa. Clearly, in this government, what goes down must come up. Un autre en franc;:ais, M. le Depute. C'est le NP D, le Pont d'Or du Premier Ministre.

Le NPD ne s'en est jamais cache. 11 croit qu e les depens es 241 gouvernementaux tres elevees sont essen tielles a la . mise en oeuvre d'un programme socialiste. D'effet, le gouvernement du Manitoba vient de donner une dem onstration eclatante a ce principe. A Selkirk, ville natale du Premier Ministre Pawle y, le gouvernement a det ermine qu'il etait nece ssaire de construire un deuxieme pont traversant la Riviere Rouge. Le meil leur emplacement sur les plans de la circulation et de la construction se trouve pres du pont Lockport actuel au sud de la ville.

Au lieu de cela des facteurs politiques ont entraines le choix d'un emplacement trois milles plus aux nord. Le nouveau pont abouti au beau milieu d'un district agricole, bien loin des gens qu'il est sense de servir et bien loin des routes d' acces. Actuellement la seule route allant de Selkirk a ce pont au long la riviere, elle ne comporte pas des glissieres de securites. 11 faudra egalement construire des routes d'acces conven able. En fait on prevoit une route a quatre voles de servir ce pont a deux voles. L'em placement de ce pont souh�ve d'autres questions interessantes.

Comme il est situe au nord d'un qual etabli, il faudra le construire a 70 pieds dans les airs. L'em placement original n'avait pas ce probleme. Le pont aura 3,000 pieds de longue ur, deux fois plus que si que serail nece ssaire a !'em placement original. Le gouvernement justifie la construction de ce pont par la necessite d'accommoder la croissante de Selkirk. Crois sance pour temps, a peine mesurable. Finalement, pour ajouter a cette collection des gaffes socialiste, le gouver nement du Manitoba vient d'annoncer qu'un nouveau pont serait construit a Lock port.

L'em placement ou le pont de M. le Premier Ministre aurait dO etre construit des le depart. Le pont de M. Pawley est a l'image de son gouv ernement. 11 coute trop cMre, il n'est pas a sa place, et il n'est nulle part. (English translation will appear in a subsequent issue.) Mr. Acting Speaker, this government doesn't deserve our support. it is tired, void of ideas, and lacks the confidence of the people of Manitoba. That is why, Mr. • Acting Speaker, I supported the non-confidence motion ' put forward by my leader. MR. ACTING SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Mr.

Acting Speaker, I'm pleased to have the opportunity to stand and support the Speech from the Throne. I am pleased to once again be in the Legislature repres enting the constituency of The Pas. In the constituency of The Pas, Mr. Acting Speaker, there are a lot of economic opportunities taking place at this time. Ecolaire is a manufacturing firm that has been set up in The Pas to deal with the construction or manufacturing of the spil lway gate for limestone. There have been 50 new jobs created because of the new corporation that was started up in the constituency of The Pas.

Manfor also is operat ing on a profit basis at this time. We have heard a lot of talk from the members of the Opposition that Manfor should be sold because it was

TUesday , 23 February, 1988 1a drain on the taxpayers of the province. I want to .assure you, Mr . Acting Speaker , that through the !COoperation of all who are involved with Manfor, and that's including the unions, management, the board of dir ectors and the govern ment; they have turned that ·place around and now we are operating on a profit ·basis. We know that there is a need for more capital infusion ,to continue with the viability of Manfor because there is a need to utilize the hard woods that are available in the surrounding area. There are serious buyers that are looking at Manfor.

We are not afraid to look at people who are willing to come into the province and make an investment, and ensure the viability of the corporation and the viability of the jobs that are going to be continued. We are not afraid of looking at joint ventu res either, so whatever way we can go to improve the situation at Manfor, then we certainly will be looking at that. Mr. Acting Speaker, I would like to just touch for a few moments on the Olympics that are going on in Calgary.

I was extremely proud to be a member of the community when the tor chbearers came to the Legislature and came here carrying the flame with the theme of "Share the Flame." I was extremely proud to be a Canadian when the opening ceremonies of the Olymp ics were takin g place. lt cer tainl y was heartwarming for us as Canadians to be hosting the Olympics. I have a special interest in the Olympics at this time because there is a young man from The Pas, who is a member of the Olympic hockey team, Vaughn Karpan, has been a member of the Olympic hockey team for the last two Olympic series.

I know he has been quite a contribution to the Olympic hockey team, and we are quite proud of him as resident of The Pas and as a Manitoban. A MEMBER: That's right, what about that bobsledder from Emerson there? He doesn't even talk about him. HON. H. HARAPIAK: Madam Speaker, I would like to talk for a few minutes on an issue that has been very much in the minds of many Manitobans and, because of that, it has also been in the minds of many Canadians and that's the whole area of auto insurance.

There are many of my constituents who have raised concerns about inc rease in the rates that took place recently. lt is good to have an opportunity to discuss them, to give the people an opportunity to make a comparison of what is going on in the private insuranc e industry in other provinces, and some of the cover ages that are available to Manitobans, in comparison to what is available to citizens of other provinces through the private insurance sector. I know there have been many articles in the papers recently.

The Member for Dauphin pointed out last night some of the horror stories that have been shared through the media. As he mentioned, the media was before this time giving it a one-sided approach to the whole discu ssion and the y were really condemning th e Manitoba Public Insu rance Corporation for increasing the rates. But after you go out and bring out the information and share with people what is going on in the whole insurance industry right across Manitoba and the whole world, the y'll see that there is no basis for 242 the complaints that have been carried on thr oughout the discussions.

I would like also to touch briefly on the mining industry which is really showing a remarkable recovery after a few years that they weren't doing very wel l. The Minister of Energy and Mines made an announcement ye sterday about the healthy position the industry was viewed in at this time. Madam Speaker, I want to get back to the Speech from the Throne. The Speech from the Throne again expresses our gover nment's continuing commitment to creative job trai ning, impr oved human services and mee ting the challenges facing the health care system in this province.

The health care system has been meeting the needs of Manitobans, but we recognize there is a need for reform. We know that the Minister we have at this time, the Minister of Health, will be working in a cooperative method with all sectors of the health indus try to try and bring around the changes that are necessary, because we cannot continue to have the health industry increase in cost the way it has over the last 10 years. As well, Mr.

Acting Speaker, I'd like to applaud the govern ment's effort in preserving the rural lifestyle, which is attempting to assist the farming community at a time when the agricultural industry is in a crisis. I know there are many speeches made during this Speech from the Throne which addr essed another area that is of concern to Manitobans, and that is the whole area of free trade. Mr. Acting Speaker, we are not opposed to the concept of free trade.

As a matter of fact, our Minister of Industry , Trade and Te chn ology, the Minister of Energy and Mines, and the Premier have been travelling across many parts of the world, trying to increase freer trade. But what we are opposed to Is the Reag an-Mul roney trade deal that was negotiated at the end of this past year. I don't want to go into details on my personal objections to the free trade.

However, I will state simply that I am in favour of reduced tariffs and reducing trade barriers between Canada and other countries, but not at the risk of losing our identity as a country or as Canadians, and also In affect ing our ability to control our natural resou rces, our waters, our energy supplies in a way that we, as Canadians, can control and shape our own future. I would like to, particularly at this time, make a few comments about the Workers Compensation system. Mr.

Acting Speaker, looking back historically at the roots of the Workers Compensation in our province as well as in the rest of Canada, two of the five cornerstones of the system were based on the concept of compromise, with labour giving up the right to sue and indus try giving up the right to plead no-fault as a defence. These were indeed comme ndabl e compromises.

They provided the injured worker with a system where they could ensure continued income during the time of a dis ability while, at the same time, they were protecting the emplo yer from a costly law suit which potentially could break the financial backs of many small busi nesses. As the system was based on an injury system rather than an adversarial system, the expenditures were directly distributed to the participants, avoiding the spin­ off costs of legal and medical advocacy groups. Also, it elimi nated lengthy court processes . The founding

Tunday, 23 February, 1988 concepts of Workers Compensation were both humane and cost-effective. During the evolution of compensation in our province, the various boards of the day have tried to structure a reasonable balance between both the concerns of industry and the concerns of the working men and women in this province.

Reflecting on the development during the first few decades of Workers Compensation, it is apparent in retrospect that the balance of the scales were quite often balanced in favour of Indus try, but over time as labour became more organized and the advocation of labour repres entat ion has come down to a fair representation, there's more equal balance to the Workers Compensation system now than there was in early times. During the time of the Conservative regime, there was a lot of controversy surrounding the Workers Comp ensation system and In the midst of the controversy, Mr.

Acting Speaker, indus try raised the concerns that some compensation awards, such as heart attacks and lung diseases, were caused by a lifestyle of people, rather than dealing with smoke habits and eating habits as the cause of those inju ries. (Madam Speaker in the Chair.) But labour was also raising an equally valid concern about industrial diseases, particularly cancer, which was caused in the workplace and that was not being recognized as a compensative part of the compensation system. lt appears that over time we have ma de a lot of changes in Workers Compensation.

I believe that the cha nges were brought about during the last year to deal with the Legislative Review Committee's Report. The changes that were brought about in the board were done through consultation with both labour's representative or labour groups in the province and also indus try. We brought them in and cons ulted with them as to who should be their rep resentatives. I believe that the system will become much fairer because of the strong representation that is in place now from both indus try's group and labour representatives.

We also have a chairperson who has had a lot of experience, and 1 feel that he has made Saskatchewan's system a very effective Workers Compensation system. I am sure that over the next little while that members will recognize the choice that was made was the right choice to bring about the changes that are necessa ry. Madam Speaker, rather than dwelling on matters which are labour, I know there are a lot of areas where there is confrontation between labour and industr y.

But rather than dwelling on the past and the confrontational attitude that was there, I would prefer to look forward to the future, where 1 believe that the cooperat ion will be coming forth from all members because we feel that this is extremely important to the injured workers in the province. We are committed to providing a system that is fair to the injured workers. We want to make sure that there is a system in place that Is going to be providing fair coverage to both the injured workers.

Also, we want to make sure the industry is handled in a way that is not affected in any way, because we certainly don't want to be scaring away the people from the province. We are therefore looking forward to dealing with the 174 recommendations that were unanimous when they 243 came forward. We know that it will be a more effective . system. At this time, Madam Speaker, I would like to urge the members to consider closely some of the programs we are delivering, to take off their blinkers and look at what's happening, what is being deli vered by this program and support it when it does come to a vote.

Thank you, Madam Speaker. MADAM SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MR. H. PANKRATZ: Thank you, Madam Speaker. I consider it a privilege and an honour , on behalf of the people of La Ve rendrye, to once again be able to respond to the Throne Speech. Madam Speaker, I intend, with members in the House, to draw to the attention some of the concerns that have been drawn to my attention during the past year. We all know that governments have a responsi bility to stimulate the economy at certain times, but it is unfor tunate to see this government and the way they are going about it.

Their stimulation is detrimental to indus try and business as a whole in the Province of Manitoba. Madam Speaker, any comments that I will be making in refe rring to any members as such, I hope they will not take that as a personal attack, but as the management ability, its policies, and its lack of ability to govern this Province of Manitoba. Madam Speaker, let me start off with the Community Places Program. it's a $10 million fund and 76 percent of it has been allocated last year to NDP ridings. This is just not acceptable in a province like this.

Here we have the Falcon Ski Club which has been applying for it, raised $30,000 of its own money to get a T -bar lift in place, and here we see where the Province of Manitoba, the Department of Culture and Heritage, allocates these monies only to ND P ridings. They have re-applied, and hopefully they will be successful in their re-application. This is one of the only areas in the Province of Manitoba that had an increase In tourism, and here this province is using this funding for ridings, basically for their political advantag