VOL.2 PRELD1INARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: ' 10:00 a.m. - 1:00 p.m. Monday, June 6, 1977 NO. 108

June 6, 1977, Tape 3775, Page 1 -- apb The House met at 10:00 a.m. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! NOTICES OF MOTION MR. SPEAKER: MR. PECKFORD: The hon. the Minister of- Mines and Energy. I suspect that there are a number of Notices of Motion about to reach m¥ hands and have just done so. Mr. Speaker, I just do not know what ministers have arrived or what ministers have not. Is it i~ order for me to give all the Notices of Motion even though some of the ministers might have accidently walked in since I have stood on my feet? MR. SPEAKER: Yes. MR.

PECKFORD: All right then, I will proceed to do that. I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Historic Objects, Sites And Records Act, 1973... (Bill No. 88). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Auto _mobile Insurance Act... (Bill No. 87). A bill, 11

An Act To Amend The Department Of Social Services Act, 1973." (Bill No. 86). A bill, 11

An Act To Amend The Public Utilities Act. 11 (Bill No~ 92). A bill, "An Act Respecting The Creation Of A Unified Family Court... (Bill No. 94). A bill, "An Act To Amend The Judicature Act. 11 (Bill No. 83) . A bill, 11

An Act To Amend The Members Of The House Of Assembly (Retiring Allowances) Act... (Bill No. 82). SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. MURPHY: That is mine, the 'Ank Murphy' Act.

June 6, 1977, Tape 3775, Page 2 -- apb MR. PECKFORD: A bill, 11

An Act To Facilitate Metric Conversion.,. (Bill No. 89}. MR. SMALLWOOD: Do you think that will pass by Wednesday? SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. WOODROW: reading today. MR. PECKFORD: your announcement, Sir. Hear, hear! we·will give it third You might have to delay A b i 11 , "An Act To Amend The Regulation Of Mines Act." (Bill No. 90). MR. NEARY: What mines? MR. PECKFORD: That sounds familiar, Mr . . Speaker. A bill' "An Act To Amend The Livestock (Community Sales) Act." (Bill No. 8_8). That is all, Mr. Speaker. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance, Sir. The minister is probably expecting a question on the Hart Report. Would the minister indicate to the House if the government, if Treasury Board has recieved the report? If they have had time to go over the report? And if they intend to accept the recommendations of the report? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. the Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: I think that was a three-part question, Mr. Speaker. The first

part is yes, we have recieved the Hart Mediation Report. Copies of it were delivered to the union, to government and to the hospital administration on Friday. Treasury Board and some government officials have had an opportunity over the weekend to study it and to analyze it. Government as such :1JJ596

June 6, 1977, Tape 3775, Page 3 -- apb MR. DOODY: has not had an opportunity to see it yet. Mr. Locking was trying to get through to me on the telephone a few minutes ago but I had to come up to the House. Hopefully we will b~ getting together later today, he and I, to discuss the thing. As to whether or not it is acceptable or not acceptabla is something that we will have to wait to mention or talk about after government has a chance to study it and after we get the union•s reaction. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. r1R. SPEAKER: MR.

NEARY: A supplementary question, A· supplementary. .~· Would the minister indicate to the House - Treasury Board has seen the report before the government has seen it - would the minister indicate if Treasury Board are recommending acceptance of the report? Obviously by now - it would only take them one meeting to decide whether or not they are going to accept the report. Have they recommended acceptance of the report? Have they themselves accepted it? MR. SPEAKER: MR. DOODY: The hen. the Minister of Finance.

Treasury Board is a subcommittee of Cabinet, Sir, and reports that Treasury Board would make they would make to Cabinet and Cabinet would make its recommendations known in the House. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: A supplementary question then. A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, would the minister indication when the Cabinet will be looking over this report? Hill they be doing it today? Tomorrow? Nextweek? Because this strike has dragged . on now for almost eighteen weeks and it is· about time : to~bring : it · to an · end. 1- ·.o.·· MR. SPEAKER: MR. DOODY : The hen. the Minister of Finance. Mr.

Speaker, there is nobody :10597 . .. _ ... _

June 6, 1977, Tape 3775, Page 4 -- apb MR. DOODY: in this House or in this Province more aware than I am df how long the strike has been continuing, with the possible exception of the strikers themselves who are the ones who have · really felt the brunt of the thing. At the earliest possible opportunity the contents of the-report will be brought to Cabinet's attention. There might very well be a Cabinet meeting this evening at supper time, which seems to be the custom of this partiuclar government, to meet at lunch times and supper times just to make sure that we get in our regular eighteen hours a day.

So we may be able to study it at that particular time, I sincerely hope so. A~ the hon. member has indicated, ~he strike has dragged on for far too long and I for one will be very, very pleased indeed to see it finished. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, Sir. A final supplementary then the hon. the member for Eagle River. MR. NEARY: I notice in the House in the last week or so that the Cabinet only have a skeleton crew.

I do not know if the ministers and the Premier are in or out of the Province - I understand the Premier is :'· out of the Province - will the minister have to wait until the Premier and the ministers are back in Confederation Building before they can convene a meeting to consider this report? Or will the meeting take place today? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: As I look around me, Sir, I will admit that some members of the Cabinet do look like skeletons, although there are a few healthy looking ones at work.

I think there are enough of us here to make a · dec i s ion when ·on ··a ' matter .. of · t hi s · importance ~· '":' :, P.1:·e as e :' fee 1 ~ - '" ·",' assured that there are - r1R. SMALL~1 00D: The meeting could not be held

June 6, 1977~ Tape 3775, Page 5 -- apb MR. SNALL WOO"D: except at the word ·of 'the Premier and his word is not there. MR. DOODY:· Yes, that is right. But communications being such as they are in this Twentieth Century, the telephone and telexes and so on, I see no problem. 1JJ599

June 6, 1977, Tape 3776, Page 1 -- apn MR. SPEAKER: · The hon • the member for Eagle River, followed by the hon. the member for Terra Nova. · M..~. STRACHAN: Maybe the Minister of Finance can try to help us out on this one, because the Premier is not here, the Minister of Transportation is here but he has assured us he is able to make some decisions.

Having spent the w'eekend in Happy Valley - Goose Bay·.-- and' y---reier Llere . to the Carson incident and the number of people who have approached us there, could the minister indicate to us whether the administration has made representation to CN and to Ottawa for an immediate replacement for the Carson because of the severe situation it puts the people of Happy Valley - G9ose Bay and the coast in concerning the movement and transportation of freight? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: I am afraid I am not in a position to advise the House as to whether this has happened or not.

I will have to take the question as notice and check with the appropriate authorities. I do not honestly know, Sir. MR. STRACHAN : A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. MR .. DOODY: I agree that the thing is an urgent matter. MR. STRACHAN: I \ Yes .. Possibl~, again, and 'I possibly in a way of infonning the minist1~r, could he I assure us that his administration, the g_¢vernment, will also look into the situat~on concerning liability for freight \'lhich was carried on that vessel? I understand if it is called

an Act of God then, of course, the people are left holding the bag, and three-quarters of the people in Goose Ba¥ wil~ go bankrupt. Goose Bay and Happy Valley 1..0600

June 6, 1977, Tape 3776, Page 2 -- apb MR. STRACHAN: have been hard enough hit as it is, and this could really set them back, finish them off, especially some of the smaller fellows 'tvho were moving back some of their equipment to work in the forest and so on and have lost this. So could the minister assure us that the administration will do its utmost to try to impress on CN and Ottawa to try to form some kind of compensation or look at the whole problem of liability. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: I do not think there is any question about that at all, Sir.

Government will certainly be pressing CN to do everything that it should do·· under these circumstances. It might very well be, as the hon. member says, that the bill of lading covering the shipment of cargo very well exempts acts of God or the Queen's enemies, or perils of the sea, or barratry of masters and mariners, or restraints of princes or rulers of people, but if they have insurance certainly the onboard insurance would cover the liability. I guess the matter is now how many of the people who had freight or other cargo on that vessel were covered by marine insurance.

That is something, of course, that I do not know and I do not think government knows, and I doubt very much if CN knows as yet. I have no - doubt at all that our Department of Transportation and Communications and indeed government as a whole will do everything they possibly c·an to move the matter along. I realize that it is a matter of inconvenience and indeed grave concern in many parts of the coast. MR. STRACHAN: A final supplementary, Hr. Speaker. · MR. SPEAKER: ~1R. STRACHAN: 106131. A supplementary·~·,:.: :.'·:.:.::: . Could the minister assure us

June 6; 1977, Tape 3776, Page 3 apb ~1R. STRACHAN: that the administrationwill treat this as a matter of urgency because, of course, these people who have to continue for weeks or months '•laiting for decisions on what happened and so on. could end up in six weeks or two months virtually bankrupt and virtually the whole economic base move out. So I am want to impress on the minister to treat this with - I hope the administration will treat this with the urgency it deserves. MR. DOODY: We appreciate the urgency, Sir.

I was trying earlier this morning to get through to the 1-tinister of Transportation and Communications. I realize that he also shares the concern and I understand he is due back on the Island this afternoon. I think he is in Wabush - but, of course, that depends on the weather whether he gets in or not. but I sincerely hope that he will he back today. · MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary question, A final supplementary then the han. the member for Terra Nova. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, in my opinion CN should be able to make a comprehensive statement concerning the losses by the passengers, personal losses and the supplies. Within forty-eight hours they should be able to make a statement. Now the question I want to put to the minister is this, the businessmen in Happy Valley and Goose Bay tell me that they are going to have to replace these supplies, they are going to have to have them flown in at tremendous expense.

Nill the government help in any way to finance the cost of transportation of these additional supplies, these replacement supplies to Happy Valley so that the cost will not .have -'to- ,be>: passed .;·on :to·: th-e ::consumer-? '"':Wil-l· this government or will the government make representation 1.0602

June 6, 1977, Tape 3777, Page 1 -- apb MR. NEARY: to the Government of Canada, the federal government, our M.P's in Ottawa on both sides of the House, to try and get some· compensation so that the consumers down there will not have to pay as a result of this disaster, pay high freiaht costs of having the goods and supplies flown in. MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. MR. DOODY: My understanding, from what I have gathered so far, is that CN is now actively looking for a replacement vessel to try to bring the supplies there as quickly as they possibly can.

Why the automatic reflex action of having supplies flown in - MR. NEARY: MR. DOODY: It is because of the emergency. It may very well be that there are some areas in which an emergency situation in some spec~fic instances of commodities is indee~ a fact. That is yet to be demonstrated. I have not seen them listed, you know. I doubt if anybody is going to starve- ~m. NEARY: This is their post-Winter - ~m. DOODY: Will you just wait for a minute,please! Control your larnyx for just a minute. MR. NEARY: This is their post-Winter stock and they cannot supply their customers unless they have their shelves stocked. MR.

SPEAKER: Order, please! Order! MR. DOODY: There are undoubtedly certain specific items which may ·very well be out of stock temporarily. I doubt very much, and it has not been brought to my attention and therefore I doubt it very much, the fact that there is a starvation or a very, very serious matter that requires the flying in of supplies at this particular point. To subsidize the cost of flyinq in supplies should not be passec on to the consumer. It is a very, very shortsighted attitude 10603

June 6, 1977, Tape 3777, Page 2 -- apb r-1R. DOODY: in my mind. Somebody has to pay for it and eventually it is the consumer whether they pay for it through taxes - HR. NEARY: Sock it to the poor old consumer. HR. DOODY: - or whether they pay it through the grocery store depends entirely on their attitude. c.fR. NEARY : That is typical of the attitude of this government. MR. DOODY: What I am saying is somewhere along the line the consumer paysr he always pays.

If we c~n get _the supplies into these people by vessel at a reasonable price, at a reasonable time limit, then that is obviously the most sensible and reasonable . way· of doing it. MR. NEARY: Take a few of the aircraft running around with the Premier and the ministers. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the member for Terra Nova followed by the member for Windsor - Buchans. :t06D4 .,..

June 6, 1977, Tape 3778, Page 1 -- apb MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker, a question = · for the Minister of Education. Last week the new medi; reported that the United Church was anxious to withdraw from the education scene under its present administrative structure, and I wonder whether they have made this request officially known to the minister? MR. SPEAKER: Education. ~1R. HOUSE: The hon. the Minister of Mr. Speaker, I have received a copy of the brief, not officially though. It was not presented to me by the United Church· Committee, but I have seen the brief through another .source.

What the operative words were were that they were interested in withdrawing from the administrative structure so that they would be able to give what they felt was more attention to the real purpose of the church, that is the religious education aspect of the curriculum. Officially it has not been passed on to me yet. I noted that one of their points was the fact that they were going to seek the co-operation of the other churches in making a joint request to the boards.

Apparently, through the media, all other denominations that are involved in education in the Province, and that is all of them, are not favouring the United Church Report in that respect. MR. NEARY: question. MR. SPEAKER: t1R. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplemenfary A supplementary. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the minister if he has received a recommendation of the United Church Task Force in connection with children beginning school before the age of five? If so, has the minister taken any action on this recommendation? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the. Minister ~ -o_f :· ;· __ -, ·:· Education. 10605

June 6, 1977 ~¥- 2 MR. HOUSE: ~-fr. Speaker, that is again part of their task force report. Again I might say that it has not been officially presented because the conference just finished last week. But they did mention their pre-school, what they call ore-school education,and the operative part of it is the fact that they are concerned about the children ~ri th special problems.

Perhaps the mentally retarded children, childreri with special handicaps such ns deaf children, what their concern is there is the fact that these pupils should be in school before they are five because they have an up-hill battle all the way. I might add, Mr. Speaker, that there is a committee, an inter-departmental committee working on that very problem now with ~he De~artment of Education, the Departnent of Recreation and Rehabilitation and the Department of Health and the Department of Social Services. And some of that work is going on nnw.

But to have all pupils in before the age of five that is not a policy of government. But to look after some of them who need it there is some of that work going on now and we are moving in that direction. MR. NEARY: A final supPlementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.. SPEAKER: A supplementary from the bon. gentleman from LaPoile and then the original questioner a supplementary. ~fR. NEA.~Y : Hr.

Speaker, ~.mat does the minister think of the recommendations or have the minister taken any action .on the recommendations by the United Church conference that Newfoundland return to the smaller community schools as WP. have seen ha~pen in some areas, especially in the Freshwater area, Placentia area and fewer children riding on costly school buses? yfuat action has• _ the minister taken on these recommendations ,if any? HR. SPEAKER: The bon. Minister of Education. MR. HOUSE: Mr. Speaker, I believe about three years ago there was a - it was not a policy made by ~overnreent but some :106U6

June li, 1977 Tape No. 3778 ~fR. HOUSE: discussion was carried on saying that ~erhaps we had ~one far enouRh in this direction, in the rlirection of centralization of schools. But we have no policy on it right now-because we have our central schools built. I mentioned that last year in the estimates and in one of the speeches on the estimates. ~·Te have schools built so it is very difficult to undo and when schools were built a number of years ago it was because of the fact that you had a jo~ to get teachers in the smaller places. AN HON. ~~~F.R: That does not ~~ke ·it ri~ht though. ~~.

HOFSE: But now there is less centralization F,Oing on and as the hon. member . for LaPoile just mentioned that some districts are perhaps moving back towards recentralization. ~ole are encouraging, let me put it this way, Hr. Speaker, the retention of primary anrl elementary education in the home to~vns. But at this point we still maintain that centralization for high schools is very important and significant. ~fR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. member for Terra Nova and the hon. gentleman for Hindsor - Buchans. HR.

LUSH: Again with respect to the United Church's intention of withdrawing from the administration of education, I wonder if in the - I have not seen the brief - I wonder if 'dthin the brief if the minister is able to inform the House as to ~rnether the United Church was just simnly expressing their own opinion of getting out or whether they were indeed making a recommendation that the structure be changed with respect to the DEC's probably. HR. SPEAKER: The hon. Hinister of Education. '.IF.. HOUSE : Hr. Speaker, again I am only speaking unofficially because they have not presented a hrief.

The point of view that the United Church presented in their b~ief has been the Pnited Church point of view prior to the Fnited Church's methodism, 1844 and .it has . carried on .. e:ver . since. ,, They h.ave not been interested ~. jJJ607 ·~ -·

June fi, 1977 '!'aoe '!o. 3778 ~!?.. ROUSE: in the ad'!!'.insitration of 'f?Ublic education but they have been interested in education oer se • . The three resolutions that I read, one was that they a?p~oach the government and tell them that they are not interested - they would be interested in withdrawing from the administrative aspect of education. number o.ne. Number two is the fact that they would consult with other churches to get them to try and do the same thing and according to the press rel)orts last week they are not going to be very successful in that.

And the third one I think regarding education in that respect was the fact that despite the fact t~~t they are saying they want this, the third is that ~mile we are in the administrative aspect of education we will carry out our duties to the·best of ou;: a?ilitY to see that it is carried out well. So one is saying jJ}608

Ju.:e o, 1977 Tape no. 3779 '-~r. Eo use, we are telling government ,..,e would ~<Tithdra~,r our responsibility~ we 'vill try to get other churches to do the Sai!l.e thing 1 b.u tin the ::J.eantbe ~1hile ,.;e have got the responsibility we ~Jill carry it out ~vell. · ~-!R. SPEAKER : The hon. member for \-i'incisor - 3uchans followed by the hon. gentleman for Eagle River. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Hinister of Tourism.

The morning ne~;s carried a report that the Federal Department of Fisheries - and I ~auld presume that the hon. minister is the appropriate minister, if not, the Provincial Hinister of Fisheries - the Federal ~-rinistry of Fisheries and Environment have indicated that they intend to cut by fifty per cent the fish guardians on our inland rivers, and they have attributed it to extra costs in controlling the tT.Yo. hundred mile limit, I am wondering if the ainister of Tourism has had any communications ~vith the federa~ authorities, the federal level of gove~nment, with regards to this decision. }1R.

SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Tourism. !·1R. HICKEY: Not to my knowledge, Hr. Speaker. I am not aware of any correspondence or communications on this particular issue. I can only inform my hon. friend that my _department has already made representation to the federal authorities for an increase in fish wardens based on heavy poaching in various regions or certain regions of the Province.

Certainly the news that they are going to be cut further is not good news, and the only other thing I can say is that the inland fishery in the Province, unlike any other Province, is under the total jurisdiction of t~e federal government. It is a very costly proposition, ami we have looked at the whole question of taking over that particular as?ect, but it is a very costly one, and it is one that has to be r,rorked out. But maybe the time has come nm•7 to do some further ivork in that direction. !·!P,. FLIGnT: ~~R. SPEAKER: A supplenentary, ~1r S?eaker. A supplenentary. :1J)609

.. : June 6, 1977 Tape ~o. 3779 Pag?. 2 - !'lS 'ro 'FL IGr:T: :.·Ir. Speaker, in vie~., of t':.e fact that this kind of a reduction could :->ossi":Jly !!lean the destruction or the ruination of sone of our rivers ":here t>.e ?Oachi~g is heaviest is the !:!inister prepared to, nQ~ber one, contact and oppose such a move by the federal level of governnent, and if that does not r..rork, prepare to look at nmv putting Xe'.-!foundland people, taking the jurisdiction of those rivers, the patrollin~ of tbose rivers under provincial jurisdiction 3:1 that the riYers ~.:ill be prouerly protected?

And, of course, not only the rivers apply here but 've are losins again - ~;e are gettin;; it ri;:;ht <·lhere it hurts fron an emplo;naent point of view ~ecause nost of t ::.ose fish 'vardens, all of them as a matter of fact, are locally enployed people. :-P... Sl'EAK.ER: The han. Einister of Tourism. !lr. Speaker, the only thing I can say is that naturally my department would make contact bmediately \vith this kind of ne~vs. Just what -.:.re can do is another matter.

If the federal goverm1ent indicates once and for all that they are going to carry out this action and reduce the number of people by fifty per cent ,as I have already stated \ve are already aware of the fact that there are insufficient wardens now and that increased poaching is taking place in some of our prime rivers in the Province I would suggest to the detriment of the salmon fishery, I cannot say at this point just T-7hat action the Province •.;rill take, but •.;e ~v-ill take ':vhatever 'N'e can, and I hope whatever is necessary. !·!R. FLIGHT: ~'!F.. S.PEAKER: ~· ffi.. FLIGHT: A supplementary, ::1r.

Speaker.· A supplementary. \·!auld the minister indicate to the :!ouse hmv many moose licences have been received this year as a result of the new applications? :"!R. SP EA .• 'ZER : The han. minister. ~ 1' .• HICKEY: I am sorry, ~!r. Speaker, I do not have the information. >I ~-r.lll ~et it for :ny han~ friend. I thi.nk it · is the second tir:1e he has as:ced for it. ~06i0 ,,

Jun e 6, 1977 :!P. . SPEAKE. : :~. S~ ... .:\CH.-\!·1: Tape !lo. 3779 Pag e 3 - ms ::1e hon . nember for Eagle !' i•;er . .. que stion for c: he ~~i nister of :~ines and Ener~y. Ue have already had the draft regulations dealing '·lith economic aspects of oil and gas. Could t:te ininister indicate to us T.vhen he expects to table or come out ~vith the environmental regulations dealing with the oil and gas development in this Province~ MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Mines and Energy. ~. t'ECKFORD: }fr. Spea~er, as quickly as possible.

I hate to put a date on it, because I did with the oil and gas regulations, I was a little optimistic in my forecast and so, therefore, I would not like to indicate a specific date, but we are working very hard to have them as soon as possible, and .. that could be by the end of this month. That would be, I would say, the earliest date. MR. STRACHAN: MR. SPEAKER: MR. STRACBAN: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker.

A supplementary. lvould the minister tell us whether he would be prepared to consider in these regulations or any futture environmental regulations the consideration of a moratorium on drilling on the Hamilton Banks? -~ the minister realizes very well the drilling goes on until late in the year, late in the season so we either have a choice of taking the weather window,- a shortening through the weather window or els.e 10611.

June 6, 1977 Tape 3780 (Morning) PK - 1 Mr. Strachan: placing a moratorium on drilling there, because should there be a blo>-mut or any problem as we have seen in North Sea in the Fall of the year then they can spew gas and oil in the nursery of the fishery for this Province right through the whole ~-linter, right through to July before it can be capped. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Speaker, I am sure that will be considered in any regulations that we do propose, and I would be willing to consider a proposal. MR. FLIGHT: Hr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER: The han. member for LaPoile followed by the hen • . , member for Burgee Bay d'Espoir. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Public Works and Services, Sir. Could the minister enlighten the House as to whether the investigation into the scandal in . the Department of Public Works is just limited to one company only or is there more than one company involved in this investigation? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Public Worka and Services. MR. ROUSSEAU: Mr. Speaker, I am not aware of any investigation into -the scandal in the Department of Public Works.

I am aware via the media-because I did not happen to be here on Friday; I was meeting ' with the Newfoundland Federation of Labour which people had asked me to do - ·.liut from the news reports I read .it is the investigations into a company who have done work for the Department of Public Works, tried out through the Department of Justice. We are doing our own internal work. I am not prepared to comment on that until I have the answers, and when I have the answers I shall comment on it.

But the investigation to the best of my knowledge,as the Hinister of Justice indicated, I presume that the Minister of Justice would be handling something of that nature, is with a company doing work with the Department of Public Works, not with the Department of Public Works. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary. MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. :10612

June 6,1977 Tape 3780 (Morning) PK - 2 HR. ~ARY: Would the minister indicate who it was- who took · the initiative in asking for this investigation? And would the minister indicate the person who took the initiative,if he went through the Provincial Department of Justice, through the Federal Department of Justice.,or straight directly to the RCNP? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. ROUSSEAU: I am not aware of it. If I may, by the way, the hon. member for Fortune-Hermitage (Mr. J. Winsor), I believe, it was Fortune-Hermitage asked a question on Friday morning.

I was not aware of it, when I said I was not aware of it. I was not aware of it at that time. It came to light later during the day so I was not misleading the member in any way. I would assume it came out directly from or as a result of allegations made by the Auditor General. And how the actual mechanics of it occurred I do not know. I would assume it went through the Director of Crown Prosecutions. I do not know that, but I would assume that certain suggestions or allegations or charges whatever were laid, and the Director of Crown Prosecutions as a result asked the RCMP.

Now I am not the legal officer of the Crown, nor am I a lawyer, nor do I know how that thing goes, but I would assume that to .be the case. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: A supplementary. A supplementary. MR. NEARY: In view of the fact that there were three companies mentioned, companies A, Band C in the Auditor General's report, there was more than one company, there were two companies, AB Walsh Electrical, AB Walsh Mechanical, and Noel's Electrical- MR. SIMMONS: No, no. Noel's Electrical and Noel's Mechanical. MR.

NEARY: Noel's Electrical and Noel's Mechancial and A.BrWalsh, well then in view of the fact that there were two companies involved will the other . company be investigated or just the A B Walsh Firm? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Public Works and Services. MR. ROUSSEAU: I have no idea. I mean the Auditor General f .eels that if there was any wrongdoing or if anybody else feels there is any wrongdoing and the suggestion is made to ·the Director of Crown· Prosecutions or to the Minister of Justice,obviously certain action :10613 {'

·~ June 6, 1977 Tape 3780 (Morning) PK - 3 'Mr. Rousseau: will have to be taken if there is any wrongdoing. And we are investigating as the result of undertakings I made to the Public Accounts Committee internally in the department, you know, what the situation is. And if there is any wrongdoing that has occurred appropriate action will be taken.

You know, I think it is fair to say, and I would hope that those who have been involved, although the department has taken one hell of a lot of corrective action since the 14th. of December, which I think was the exact date, but some time around mid-December,when the first draft of the Auditor General's letter was received by all departments indicating what would be in it. Since that date the department has been working to its full capacity in an attempt to ensure that this sort of thing does not happen again.

Now that is ongoing, In the meantime we are attempting also to tighten up the whole internal control weaknesses that the Auditor General pointed out. · And we would hope that this sort of thing will not happen again · and,like I say,in the meantime departmentally we are looking at the whole question. As a -matter of fact I would love to be able to spend an hour or two this morning, and if I am gone for an hour or two this morning and you call a quorum, and we are not here, what are you going to do, you know? There is only so much.

I would hope by Wednesday, as I indicated to the Public Accounts Committee,to have some answers to the questions they pose and to the House of Assembly. MR. NEARY: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary,then the han. gentleman for - Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I can well appreciate and understand w~y the minister had to tighten up his department, that is obvious from the Auditor General's report, It is the natural thing to do, the obvious thing to do. But what about, 1.0614

June 6, 1977 Tape 3781 EC - 1 !-ffi.. ~lEARY: Hr. Speaker, now because all this has been brought to light does the minister intend to have a Royal Commission of Inquiry into all contracts that have been let bv the minister's department . ' say,over the last three year period~ Would the minister not think that it would be wise now in view of the things that have surfaced in the last few weeks to have an examination of all the contracts that have been let by the minister's department by a Royal Commission of Inquiry over the past three years? MR.

ROUSSEAU: No, the minister is investigating internally now and certain other actions. If there is any sort of study it will go back further than three years because this is not something new that has occurred. It is a way in which a department has functioned over many years~ since before Confederation and a type of procedure. 1-m. SIMMONS: Come off it. Come off it. 1-!R.. ROUSSEAU: Well why three years, you know. ~-le will go back and take a look at it right through, but I am just saying that we are looking at it internally. We are trying to attempt to find out.

You know, because one situation is alleged to have occurred does not mean everybody down there MR. NEARY: Locking the barn door now does not make amends for any skulduggery that may have gone on and the minister should look into that. MR. ROUSSEAU: Oh, no. That is not what I am suggesting. I am suggesting - A..~ HON. }!EMBER: (Inaudible) swept under the rug. MR. ROUSSEAU: I am suggesting that we are conducting an internal - you know, down in the department, and if there is evidence of wrongdoing, yes, we will take action. If there is no evidence - }1R. NEARY: \fuo is doing it?

The same people that gave out the vouchers are doing it! ~..R. SPEAKER: The han. member for Burega - Bay d'Espoir. rlR. SU1MONS: A supplementary for .the minister. I had other :10615

June 6, 1977 Tape 3781 EC - 2 questions for him but I think since this subject has come up '~e might pursue it. I think there is some advantage in doing so. .The information that came before the Public Accounts Committee which is now public was to the effect - and it is in contradic~ion of what the minister just said, so I would like him to reconcile the two - the information was that the real problem was "created by the instruction in 1974 to use the direct purchase order. In view of that the minister is maintaining that this has gone on for a number of years.

It is my under­ standing it has gone on for three years and that the official departmental reason for it is the change in the docut!lent being used. I would like to ask the minister if in his findings so far he has seen any need for a more full inquiry, an inquiry that is independent of the department. I think the minister must agree that what is happening now is that you have in essence a witness in his own defence. You have people in the department asking them­ selves if they have done anything improperly and I \·oTOuld suggest that is not the way to determine wheth~r there has been any impropriety.

I wonder would the minister entertain now the thought of having a full scale public inquiry under the Public Inquiries Act? HR. SPEAKER: l:·fR. ROUSSEAU: The han. minister. I stand corrected. The question of the purchase orders and the question of the work orders in my opinion have been answered satisfactorily. Well now,the Auditor General may not agree with the procedure. He have explained why this was done and~as I say, the RC1.P now are inves ti­ gating. We are inve~tigating internally and we are not going to sweep anything under the rug.

And I am certainly not going to stand uphere next year and answer the same sort of questions. I am going to attempt~ as are officials in the department,to insure this sort of thing does not happen again. If there is any wrongdoing down there then appropriate action will be taken. ~~d as a matter of fact if there is any ~vrongdoing down there it would be ~•ell above my ability or responsibility or capability to sweep anything under the rug. If there have been any indications of illegality or breaking the law or breaking the Public Tender Act or anything of that nature, appropriate action will be taken. 1.0616

June 6, 1977 Tape 3781 EC - 3 NR. SUJllONS: A supplementary. ~~. SPEAKER: A supplementary. The han. member from Burgee - Baie d'Espoir. MR. SH~O~S: ~[r. Speaker, a supplementary to the same minister. The minister has made reference several times nmo~ in his answers to the possibility of some wrongdoing in the department. Is he in a position to indicate whether he suspects wrongdoing within the department or whether the investigation he has referred to - the internal investigation - is taking into account that possibility? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. minister. MR.

ROUSSEAU: The - excuse me - the minister ~s not referring .. --· to wrongdoing. You know, obviously the question that came from the Auditor General and the hon. member from LaPoile (Mr. Neary) and the ' hon. ~~mber from Burgeo - Baie d'Espoir (Mr. · Simmons) suggests some improprieties in this. They are asking for investigations. I say the possibility of that I do not know. That is what I am trying to determine now. I can assure hon. members if, if, if . . that there are improprieties appropriate action will be taken.

I am not saying there are improprieties,but I am saying that the allegations made by the Auditor General and subsequent information that has been made known to me and publicly indicate that we have to take a look at the system. And,as I say, if there is impropriety appropriate action will be taken. SOME HON. ~ffi}ffiERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: I am not recogni~ing anyone because - order, please! - because I am checking my watch. Apparently the clock there has stopped so the thirty minutes will never transpire, but I understand that the thirty minutes is up. MR. SIMMONS: This is just like hockey! SOME RON.

ME}ffiERS : Oh, oh! 0 0 0 MR. NEARY: I would like to move the following resolution, Sir.

WHEREAS the general level of physical fitness of the youngsters in our school : - system would appear to have reached a new low; :10617

June 6, 1977 ~!R.. NEARY: AND

WHEREAS the - MR. SPEAKER: ~· Tape 3781 EC - 4 Order, please! :10618

June 6, 1977, Tape 3782, Page 1 -- apb ~·!R. SPEAKER: r·thought first when I called Orders of the Day, the hon. gentleman was raising under the Standing Order which was applicable then. But is the hon. gentleman asking leave to revert to Notices of Hotion? HR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, my understanding is that we have done it two ways in this hon. House, Sir. We have done it under Notices of Motion; usually ''~e do it when Orders of the Day are called and move a Private Member's Resolution. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. gentleman would have to ask leave, as I understand it, to now give notice of a motion. MR.

NEARY: Well, I would like to ask leave, Sir, to move a resolution. SOr.m HON. HEHBERS : SOME HON. MEMBERS: Agreed. No. No. MR. SPEAKER: When I hear a negative voice then I cannot recognize the hon. gentleman. MR. NEARY: Well I will move it tomorrow so it does not make any difference really. if they are that narrow-minded. MR. PECKFORD: MR. SPEAKER: ORDERS OF THE DAY Motion 4. r-iotion 4. On motion, that the House resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole to consider certain resolutions, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. · MR. CHAIRMAN: Buchans. HR • CHAIRMAN : speak? MR. FLIGHT:' ready. Order, please!

The hon. the member for Windsor - Is the hon. member going to No, no. I am getting- :my : bi~lls 1..0619

June 6, 1977, Tape 3782, Page 2 -- apb MR. NE.ARY: MR. CHAIRMAN : ~-IR. NEARY: Hr. Chairman. The hon. the member for LaPoile. Sir, I presume this is the increase in the tax on insurance. MR. CHAIRMAN: Bill 79, yes. MR. NEARY: Right. ~vell, Mr. Chairman, there is not much else, I suppose, left to be said about this increase in taxation. We have gone over the ground fairly well about the amount of extravagance and waste that is carried on by this administration to the extent that we almost had blows . . There was almost physical contact in the House.

I do not know why the administration are so jumpy and jittery these days, Sir. I realize that the Premier is under tremendous pressure, that the administration is being rocked with one scandal after another, starting right back with the gear replaca~ent scandal that seems to have faded into the background for some reason or other, where we were told $3 million or $4 million of the taxpayers' money were involved. The minister is looking for $2.8 million and here we saw $3 million or $4 million, so we are told, although only two charges have been laid so far . in this particular scandal.

Now we hear of the scandal down in the Department of Public Works,of extravagance and waste of the taxpayers' money. ~ve know of the escalation in the cost \·lithout justification of- the Health Sciences Complex, we know of the trebling of the - cost of the Carbonear Hospital. ~ and the funny Pa.:~ about it, Mr. Chairman, is that the administration sits back and does nothing about it. When the Auditor General's Report was brought into this ·House - let me point out, Sir, for the benefit of han. gentlemen who were never ministers, my bon. friend the member for Twillingate (Mr.

Smallwood).; · the former Premier can back me up on this - that before 10620

L June 6, 1977, Tape 3782, Page 3 -- apb HR. NEARY: the Auditor General .tables . his report he writes the various ministers to bring to their attention certain irregularities or certain improprieties or certain procedures that are being violated in their departments. This is done months before the Auditor General's Report is tabled in this han. House.

And it is done for a very good reason, to notify the ministers and the government and the Premier of what is going on.in the various departments before he submits his report to the House so that they can rectify anv _ irregularities or change any procedures that the Auditor General may have recommended that needed to be changed. Then the Auditor General presents his report to the House. You would think, Mr.

Chairman, you would think that an administration that is on an austerity kick, an administration that needs more money, rather than bring in a recommendation for an increase in taxes would follow out some of the recommendations that were made,in writing 7 first of all to the ministers and to the Premier, would carry out the recommendations of the Auditor General.

And if they did not do it then they would have done it when the report was brought into the House and there was a barrage of questions from the Opposition to the various ministers in the administration whereby the government had poured down the drain, thro~gh extravagance and waste, through improper procedure, through appearances of collusion and influence peddling and everything else, skulduggery, under-the-table-deals, you would think, Sir, that the administration on their own, the Premier of this Province should have for his own protection and for the protection of his government and in the interest of good government, and in the interest of his :party, s~hould hav.e taken the .ini tia ti:v.e . and . ei th.er , : . ... heads should have rolled in various government departments, 1.0621.

June 6, 1977, T'ape.3782, Page 4 -- apb HR.. .TEA..R.Y: including_ minister -s ~~head:S. .... ,~ .. -~ . _ if necessary; Sir, because the han. gentl~~an tells us now about the internal investigation that is going on. 't-7hat the han. gentleman does not realize, Sir, is that there is a captain of that department and the minister is the captain. It has not always been the hon. gentleman,it has been certain other han. gentle.Ttten. ·. . 1.0622

June 6,1977 Tape 3783 (::ioming) AH-1 NR. NEARY: HelL minister's heads should roll as well as civil service, Do not pawn it off on the civil servants • The authorization of that voucher had to come from the minister of that department. ~ffi.. ROUSSEAU: Hay I,as a courtesy ? Let me say this~I respect and understand exactly what the hon.member for LaPoile is saying and I understand correctly who is responsible for the Department of Public Works and Services and that is this little boy sitting right here.

I understand that, I un~erstand what my obligations are as a l'linister of the Crown, I know who runs that department and let me assure the hon.member that I am well aware. !1R. NEARY: tvell, Sir, the bon. gentleman was not always the hon.gentleman who ran that department. ~m. ROUSSEAU: I am now. MR. NEARY: The hon. gentleman is now but there were a number of hon. gentleman who were responsible for the runninr. of that department. MR. ROUSSEAU: Well,! will go beyond what the hon.member is suggesting.! am the minister now and I hold full responsibility now and now is when this is happening. MR.

NEARY: I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman, but my point is that the investigation should not just stop at the - MR. PECKFORD: HR. CHAIRMA..."{: MR. PECKFORD: A point of order,Mr. Chairman. A point of order The han member for LaPoile is supposedly addressing himself to "An Act To Amend The Insurance Premiums Tax Act " (Bill No. 79) and I suggest that in his continuing comments he has been for the most part now, in the 1·ast number of minutes, dealing with irregularties, alleged irregularties in the Department of Public Works and so therefore I would suggest that he is being irrelevant ~0623

June 6,1977 Tape 3783 (Horning) AH-2 MR. PECKFORD: that is Bill 79 • somewhat to the main princi;>le under discussion, :::1R. NEARY: MR.. CHAIR:..'\fAN: To that point of order, Hr. Chairman. The hon. member for LaPoile. ~m. NEARY: Your Honour knows full well that when you are discussing a tax bill, any tax bill that it is a \vide ranging debate. It is the duty of any member on either side of the House if they can show _ the government how they can save money rather than bring in additional taxes then that is our duty to do that, Sir, So I am completely in order.

The hon. gentleman just does not understand \vhat we are doing here now, Hr. Chairman, in committee ,.,hen \ve are discussing a tax bill. MR. CHAIR11&N:Order,please! Although discussing the resolution I feel that the hon.member is drifting a bit and not really relevant and I will ask him to keep it in range a little bit more. I know we have a wide·range of debate. MR. ·NEARY: Your Honour was very cagey there in his words. I do not know how far you can drift on a tax bill, Sir. As far as I know you can drift as far as you like. But I will reflect Your Honour's observations.

I do not think Your Honour really made a firm ruling but I am merely trying to point out, Sir, to the House the savings that could result if the ministers were alert and were not sloppy and were not conducting and run.."'l.ing a loose ship, running a sloppy department, the amount of money that could be saved~and the Minister of Finance would not have to come in then and ask for $2.8 million, the increase in the insurance tax.

And that is why I am suggesting, Sir, that government~you know,over the last four or five years government some how have accepted the position~ especially the Premier who is the captain of the ship,really, just the same as the captain of the William Carson answers for what happened to the William Carson~ 1.0624

June 6,1977 Tape 3783 (Morning) AR-3 NR. NEARY: The Premier has to answer for what goes on in, his administration and if there is inefficiency, incompetence and extravagance and waste and patronage,if there is an iuvestigation it should not just be limited to the civil service, to the public service· It should also involve politicians and to see if heads should roll at that level and not just :1.0625 . _ .. -

June 6, 1977 Tape No. 3784 rm- 1 XR. NEARY: let the blame go over on the public service and that is what I ~ suggesting, Sir, because ministers really, Sir, ministers by precept and example are the ones ~.;ho authorize any changes like we saw in that voucher that cost the taxpayers of this Province literally millions of dollars unnecessarily. I am told that this same firm did a job at another government building and the system has not worked ~ince, that you go in and push a button to turn on a light in one

section of the building and a light comes on in another section, and you push on a button to light up one office and a light comes on in another office. And so the government are going to have to get back an electrical firm to rectify the mistakes that were made by this company that were given this work without calling public tenders. It is a great scandal, Sir.

Look,one scandal after another has rocked th~s administration and yet the news media of this Province appear to be docile about the whole matter, no investigative report, just let it go on as if it is a way of life that people are shocked and alarmed over and yet it seems to be an accepted thing in this Province. You can go right back to the fishery scandal, the Scrivener scandal, the Public Works ' scandal, one after the other. The administration is rocked with scandal, riddled ~dth scandal.

Over in New Brunswick they certainly did not sweep it under the rug but here it seems to be the policy, it seems to be accepted practice. Oh yes! lle -o;rill do an internal investigation. This is something new, doing an internal investigation when it should be a police investigation to get to -·knm.:r these matters.

Your Honour will remember the first year the administration was in power they went on a witch hunt, the whole year they did nothing, did nothing for a whole year only conduct a witch hunt and looking in the dark closets of Confederation Building trying to dig out something about former ministers and the former administration l:hen they should have been attempting to run this Province. And now they are on the defensive and instead of follmring 1_0626

June 6, 1977 Tape No. 3784 !\'I-{ - 2 ~, !R. NEARY : out the procedure that they used by having offices and houses raided, they are having internal investigations and the ministers and the politicians and the elected representatives of the people think this is going to justify the extravagence and the waste and the examples of impropriety and wrong-doing. ~lell, it is not going to satisfy me and it is not going to satisfy the people of this Province.

And I believe the r!inister of Finance, Sir, should withdraw this bill and see if we can recover from some of the contractors that have been doled out money risht, left and centre, the taxpayers' mnney in rrturn in most · cases for very little work, bailing it out right, left and centre, instead of that the minister should withdraw that bill and demand that the Minister of Public ivorks, not the present minister - well, the minister is responsible now but there were other ministers in that department who were equally to blame as the minister for.any wrongdoing that went on in that department.

The minister just admitted that- demand of the Hinister of Public Works that he cough up this $2.8 million. Rave a royal commission of enquiry going back over a three year period. on all contracts awarded by this government in the last three years, especially the ones to A. B. Walsh. But apart from that, what about the Scrivener scandal?

The minister should agree to a royal commission of enquiry going back three years and nave the Ydnister of Finance withdraw the bill and find out if the Hinister of Public Works cannot come up with tbis money being wasted on the Health Science Complex, the Carbonear Hospital, repairs and maintenance to government buildings. It is scandalous. . Hr. Chairman, I will tell you - look, you know I do not understand it. I get completely frustrated at the attitude of the news media in this Province, how they are so docile about :10627

June 6, 1977 Tape 3785 Cforning) PK - 1 ::Jr. Nearv: these matters. It would not happen in any other Province of Canada. Just let it ride along. Ride along. Take the minister's explanation. No digging on their ow~. No delving and probing and investigativ~ reporting ~ve see going on. And therefore the public just sit back not realizing,! suppose, the magnitude of the extravagance and the waste and the scandals that have rocked this -government.

And so I say, Sir, I am going to vote against this Tax Bil~, and I am going to vote against any other Tax Bill that the minister brings in until it is proven to my s 2tisfaction that the administration are genuine and sincere in trying to eliminate extravagance and ~v-aste and scandal and collusion and patronage and corruption and · under-the-table deals, and foolish .. ~ waste of the taxpayers money.

Until they can prove to my satisfaction that they are prepared to take off their coats and get iown to brass tacks, and correct these kinds of situations that I was talking about and not take it out of the backs of the ordinary people of this Province, then I am going to vote agains~ all the Tax Bills that are brought into this House in this session. HR.. CHAIRMAN (HR.. YOUNG) : Shall the resolution carry? SOHE HON • MID·ffiERS : Carried. ~. CHAIRI1AN (HR. V11TTNG) : Carried. The hon. member for Burgee-Bay d'Espoir. HR. R. SINHONS: ~1r. Chairman, I do not knmv- how many more Tax Bills are yet to come.

AN RON. ~MBER: Two or three. :1R. SUfMONS: Two or three, eh? It has been no~v, - what? - months well~a month and ~ half, five or six weeks since we had the Budget, and the government is up to its old tricks, of course, bringing in the Tax Bills just before they want to shut her do~.;n. SOME HON. l1EMBERS : Oh, oh! ~·P-_, S~~·m:iS: \.Jell, ~,·e rr:ay ~1ave tO ~-1.eep her open for a ~rhile, ~fr. Chai:rr.an, because there are certain things that need to be said and it gets more interesting by the day. Every day around here you learn a fe~J things and you see the need for some pretty close scrutiny ::10628 ;

June 6, 1977 Tape 3785 (Morning) Mr. Simmons: on this government. I find myself this morning much of the mind of my friend from LaPoile (Mr. Neary), we are on the same wave length and I do not know if that is to his credit or mine, but I am almost predicting what his poll is going to show when they are all talleyed up from LaPoile. Mr.

Chairman, I believe central to any decision to give approval for any further increases in tax rates, be it insurance, gasoline or income tax or whatever else might be coming up, cen.tral to any approval is the question of whether this hon. crowd can PK - 2 manage the bit of money they got now. And I am fast coming to the conclusion, Mr. Chairman, that this government is either unwilling, unable or otherwise lacks the interest to even be concerned about the day to day running of government. And as a result there are some fairly sloppy things happening. The member for LaPoile talks about scandals.

It is an easy word. It is a dramatic word, and it draws attention to the problem. I do not know whether what.we are seeing unfold in the last few days constitutes scandals or not. I do know that at very best it constitutes what must be the sloppiest financial management, the sloppiest fiscal management of any government anywhere. There cannot be a crowd anywhere, Mr. Chairman, that runs a ship as loosely as this one. There just cannot be. Mr. Chairman, let me talk about what I would choose to call the Public Works affair. Look at that Torbay hangar job, Mr. Chairman.

You know, the amounts of money, the numbers of work orders, 1..0629

June 6, 1977 Tape ~o. 3786 ~R1 - 1 ~. SI~!liONS: the procedures, the lack of inspection, the lack of certification, forget scandals, ~1r. Chairman, just talk about routine procedures that you would follow if you were just gett~ng a house built for yourself, let alone if you were entrusted with hundreds of thousands of dollars of public money. Nothing, Mr. Chairman, anywhere on paper in relation to that entire job which cost $305,000, ~othing that indicated government ever consulted anybody about what the cost might be, nothing to indicate that the job was ever certified.

There is not a single scrap cf paper arywhere in the government files,I am told,that any part of that job was ever certified for payment, except on the invoices themselves which obviously the inspector could not have lugged around with him as he checked the job and somewhere along the point he sat dotYn in an office,I am told,and initialled hundreds - well in this cases sixty-six but in terms of the total practice he initialled hundreds upon hundreds upon hundreds of jobs as certified, goods received, that kind of thing. Now, Mr.

Chairman, if there is not scandal this government should be extremely grateful because she was ~de open for a scandal. All the ingredients are there, all the ingredients. and a couple of ingredients that nobody had any real control over. The minister during a part of the time was a gentleman who was away, through no fault of his own, but·was away from the job because of illness. We know that and I say that is not his fault. But I introduce it as a factor.because it may well have been that when the cat ~as away the mouse saw the opportunity for playing.

The minister was away during ~n extended period, there was no effective head of the department for a period, one ingredient. Number two, it is known that for an extended period the then deputy ministe~ was ill and was physical! away from the job for weeks on end. Again not his fault. I am not blaming here. I am just stating a couple of factors. :to sao

June 6, 1977 Tape No. 3786 NH - 2 MR. SH~ONS: that may well be in1redients in the overall set up. rne minister was away, th~ deputy minister was a<..ray. Notv who was the acting deputy minister? _ Ah ha: The acting deputy minister, of the three assistant deputy ministers the acting deputy minister was also the Ass"istant Deputy Minister for Property Hanagement. And I point the significance of that to the minister because that should not be lost on him. The acting deputy minister during the period, or much of the period, was the ADM for Property Management.

Now the Committee will know that it is the property management area in which this tvhole matter that we have been talking about comes. The Torbay hangar job, the other buildings, the L&Marchant Road job, all these come under property management and so you have a situation where about - in terms of electrical maintenance you have a situation with three peo?le and three people only were effectively in the driver's seat. The minister Has gone during a period, the deputy minister was out ill, the acting deputy minister was the ADM for property management.

Under him you have the Director of Property ~tanagement and under him you have the Chief Electrical Inspector. MR. PECKFORD: Mr. Chairman, on a point of order.

I do not want to interfere ~vith what the hon. gentleman is trying to say but to me this seems to be not the place or under the appropriate legislation to discuss this matter now, that the bill under consideration is one to increase taxes and that the hon. member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir had delved quite in detail, quite extensively into matters pertaining to alleged irregularities in the Department of Public Works and Services and that it is very difficult to connect alleged irregularit _ies in the Department of Social Services in the detail to which the han. member for Burgee-Bay d 'Espoir has now involved himself ~vith the principle and resolution of this bill. 1.0631.

June 6, 1977 Tape No. 3786 ~~! - 3 ~-fR. SHJ}-!ONS: To the point of. order, Mr. Chairman.. Any debate pn a money bill has to be fairly broad. I was leading up to an example to demonstrate that the money this govermnent already has is be·ing fairly oadly managed. I believe I am ~..-ell in order. If the Committee finds me not in order, Mr. Chairman, if there are certain things I cannot say in the House I shall choose to say them outside the House because they need to be said. But aside from that, Mr. Chairman, · ., <• 1.0632

June 6, 1977 Tape 3787 (~forning) PK - 1 ~!r. Simmons : I believe, I submit I am ~•ell in order. I am pursuing an example of fairly loose fiscal management. I said nothing abour irregularities. It was the minister who said that. I ~•as talking about fairly loose fiscal management, and I believe that is germane, ~tr. Chairman, to the question of ~•hether we o_ught to vote more monies for this government. NR. CHAIRMAN (l·m.. YOUNG): To that point of order.

It is quite hard to define a narro~.;r line in debating a resolution, and .probably the hon. member was taking quite a time to get around to his point 1 so I will more or less ask him to speed it up a little bit and to continue with his debate. MR. SIMMONS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I \-7as saying that the set up in the Department of Public Works at the time was such that three men, the Chief Electrical Inspector, the Director of Property Management, and the Assistant Deputy Minister for Property ~~nagement, who at that time was also the Acting Deputy Minister during a part of t~at time, these three people had effectively or were effectively in the driver's seat in terms of authorizing, in terms of making decisions, in terms of approving projects. As a result, Mr . Chairman, the ingredients were there for very sloppy management at least, and we know that indeed took place.

But the ingredients were also there, Mr. Chairman, for wrongdoing, for wrongdoing. And I am a bit distrubed about the minister's attitude in Question Period this morning. The facts of the case as they relate to the hangar in Torbay lead me to believe that there ought to be a fuller investigation, which would have the affect of at once cleat ·ing the· innocent, but identifying any person who may not be innocent in this. And I feel strongly, Mr. Chairman, that there are some people who are not very innocent in this. Now the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary) asked this morning in Question Period how this thing got started, who initiated it. I will tell him. If members ·will check the questions that were 10633

..J - June 6, 1977 Tape 3787 (Xorning) P, .. - ., ... - }fr. Sir..mons: asked after the Auditor General's report came dm-m, they ~,rill find that a number of us ,including myself in particular, 11ere asking questions about the A, B, C companies. It is also significant and to the r:tinister 's credit, by the '"ay, that I believe he is the only minister who has even bothered to address himself to the comments in the Auditor General's report.

He is the only minister who has yet come in the House, the Auditor General's report has been down since the first week in February, February, March, April, May, over four months now, four months arld only one minister even bothers to reply in any detail to the comments raised in the Auditor General's report. Only one minister, the Hinister of Public Harks and that is to his credit. Now, Hr. Chairman, the questions were asked in early February, and we were told that we were just playing politics with it, and we had nothing to worry about and that kind of thing.

As a matter of fact the last thing the minister told us in his nine page statement was the name ·of the companies, the very last thing that he told us, the very last thing. Well,we had a couple of meetings of the Public Accounts Committee, and in particular the meeting of May 13. I read the transcript over the weekend and I must say, Mr. Chairman, it was like pulling teeth, it was like pulling teeth, asking questions of the various witnesses at that particular meeting.

And eventually I found myself saying to the Committee that in effect what I wanted to know,and the reason I was asking the questions, what I really \¥anted to know \·Tas there some impropriety? Was there some impropriety in the spending? I have said before in the Committee and I say so in this House now, I believe there was. I believe there v7as. If there was not I will be the first to apologize. But I have some fairly clear indications that I believe there \vere clear improprieties in the spending of the money. Now, ~·~r. Chairman, for that reason I kept asking the question again · and again.

I \vent aver it during the \veeke.nd 1.0634

June 6, 1977 Tape 3787 (~forning) PK - 3 ~-1r. Simmons: and I think I must have put the question in one forn or another about ten to bvel ve tines . On Hay 13, Hr. Chairo.an, the Auditor General, 1.0635

June 6,1977 Tape 3738 (Morning) AH-1 not only.the wit~esses from government but the Auditor General himself~and his staff were not particularly concerned about the companies for at one point a representative of the Auditor General's office said "~ve did not specifically select the companies to say there Yas anything bad on the go or anything like that" &~ HON. HEMBER: Hhen Yas that? ll MR.. SIMMONS: That was on May 13th.

And ~~e did not specifically select them to say that the Department of Public Works was doing anything.And then later one of the members of the committee said, "So what_ you are saying is it is not' the companies you are concerned about, it is the whole system' .' It is the whole system; not the companies,it is the whole system. As a matter of fact, it was the member for Mount Pearl who put that question,"So what you are saying is it is not the companies you are concerned . about it is the whole system:' And the Auditor General replied, "That is right!' That Yas on May 13th.

I hope the member for L~oile is listening because I am about to answer his question. On May 13th the Auditor General's office indicated that they were not particularly concerned about the companies,it was the system.

And then subsequent to May 13th, at the request of me as chairman of that committee,the Auditor General undertook to get certain information - on Hay 13th the auditors - undertook . to get certain information, On Thursday,May 26th., when I arrived in the building he was here to tell me~at that time ±n confidence, as Chairman of the Committee,that having gotten the details that I had requested he had come to the conclusion that there was evidence of possible wrongdoing.

And as a result of that conversation he talked to the Directoro£ Public Prosecutions, who in turn convened a meeting of the RCMP on the Monday and who ~.;rote the RC~1P on the i-Tednesday afternoon. 1..0636

June 6,1977 Tape 3788 Oforning) AH-2 ~fR.. SHIMONS: The same day the committee met 't-Then the minister ~vas present. That is the sequence of events and I use it for a · reason. ~1R. NEARY: It is most irregular, I think the hon.gentleman would admit,for the Auditor General to have to take the initiative. It should be the Premier or the minister who should be taking the initiative on the recommendation of the Auditor General. MR. ROUSSEAU: I am surprised that the Auditor General did not bring that information to me. I am very surprised. ~-1R. SIMNONS: Surprised he did not bring it to - MR. ROUSSEAU: you kno'tv.

MR. SIMMONS: MR.. ROUSSEAU: he did not. HR. SIMMONS: Did not bring the information to the minister, I see, yes. And as the hon.member knows, I presume knows, No.I am aware that the Auditor General did not. I would assume-and I cannot speak for him; that is a matter for him to answer- I would assume that in this particular case the minister's department could be conceivably involved and in that context it might be awkward.

But aside from that~the Auditor General 1 of course,has two or three procedures that he can follow; one,he makes his annual report to the House; secondly, at any time 'tvhen he thinks the need arises the act gives him the authority to make a special report to the Lieutenant-Governor in Council, thirdly,as an Auditor General and as a private citizen as soon as he has evidence of possible wrong doing he ought to report it to the proper authorities. And he did as I would do as a private citizen!he went to the Director of Public Prosecutions. }!R.

ROUSSEAU: I am not questioning that.I am just saying that,you know,it would have been a nice courtesy to the minister had the minister himself been informed. 10637

June 6,1977 Tape 3788 (Horning) AH-3 ~-!R. • S IM:·10:1 S : Sure, okay. Courtesies aside,we will settle up the courtesies and worry about the feelings after. But the essence of the problem is this 1 and here it is stated as simply as I can state it; in February ivhen this matter was first raised in the Auditor General's report we asked questions they were swept under the carpet. Theywere made of non- effectat that particular time.

As late as May 13th I was asking questions and it was only when the impartial investigation was undertaken in some more detail - and remember that the Auditor General himself had done a fairly_thorou~h audit of the Department of Public Works, it was the one department that he had singled out and that is how he came upon this. But even then he had not ~•in~ed to what I had been hearing all over town, inletters, in telephone conversations, in personal "Visits all over town.

Since Friday I say to the minister I have had two telephone conversations initiated by people other than the initiator on the other end of the line giving me other examples that should be followed up. And the questions I raised in the May 13th meeting, I do not mind saying to the minister, were prompted by information ·I was getting on the ~.T., o~~ the record,if you like,and that is what told me I should ~eep probing. And as a result of my probing in the May 13th ~eeting,when I said possible impropriety about ten or twelve times, 1..0638

June 6, 1977 Tape No. 3789 NM- 1 ~- !R. SD~IONS: the Auditor General finally lvent back and delved in some detail and as a result of that he found information that he was not even aware of before, enough information to dictate to him to take the unusual -step of asking for a police investigation. Now what I am saying to the minister is very clear; that if that is the case in relation to .one company, how much is possiblJ there if somebody did a thorough investigation2 And I said to him a moment ago~ and I lolant to connect up llith what I have said now to what I said a moment ago, that the ingredients were there.

The minister was away, the deputy minister was away. Three people only were in the driver's seat, three people who worked fairly closely together for a number of years. The ingredients were there, clearly there for a possible wrongdoing and the only way we are going to answer that question, the only way we are going to answer it is if we call in an outside group. Look,we have done it in this House, we have done it for one television set,so do not let anybody tell me that this is not a big enough issue for a public enquiry.

We sat here two or th~ee months ago and voted for a public enquiry o.n a television set, on •one television set,and here we are talking about a situation where I can tell you without fear of contradiction that in the case of the Torbay hangar job the supplier, the contractor inflated quantities. There are more light bulbs on this bill tha4 you could get in that building if you tried. The inflated quantitied, number oneJ ~;a, the inflated man-hours. There are more man-hours on this bill than you could fit in down there.

And if you want - that is one job - I will tell you about another job, very briefly without naming names at all. I know of another place in this city where an electrical contractor was in and where he billed out after the fact. :10639

June 6, 1977 Tape 1-To. 3789 ~fR. SI:MXONS: man-hours, and I have a copy of all the man- hours he billed them out.,and if you take the total · man-hours he put into it - and listen to this~ in an eighteen month period that contractor, according to his bills, put in 21,348 electrician man-hours, 21,348.

If you divide that NH - 2 out in that particular job - H'hich the department. bv the 1.;av says is something over 204 jobs- if you divide that out for that one electrical contractor, 21,000 for eighteen months, ' divided by - you kno~-1, have them working Christmas Day and everything, and divide it out, five days a week, eight hours a day for a year and a half and he had to have seven and a half electricians there every moment of the day. Can you imagine all the work se~en and a half, or seven electricians can do eight hours a day, five days a week for eighteen months? Now that is why I keep asking the questions.

I am not wanting to harrass the minister. I am not 1-1anting to say Scandal ~ ScandalJ Scandal} I am just telling the minister he is sitting on top of a time bomb. He is sitting right on top of a time bomb, and I can give him other examples but I do not want to parade these publicly. There are all kinds of examples and I say to the minister that there is no way that that Torbay hangar job could have been billed out and paid for without at least the active knowledge or two or three people in the department. It just could not have happened.

There was nobody that stunned, nobody that stunned that they could not have said, "That is a lot of light bulbs. That is a lot of man-hours." The- other job I just -made reference to, I will not say the details of it because t~1e information has just been handed to me this morning and I have the copies there right now,as soon as I sit down,to get to the Clerk o£ the Committee so it can be circulated to the Committee members. So I will not mention the job hnt I just give it to him as an example that there were 21,000 man-hours, seven men :10640

June 6, 1977 Tape no. 3789 :-!R. S H!:·[ONS : a day, eight hours a day. HR. ROUSSEAU: Give it to ~e priva tel y ~ ~ffi . S L r10NS : Pardon? ~. ROUSSEAU : Give it to me privately? ~. SIHHONS: Oh, the minister will have a ~opy as soon as I sit down. I ju$t got the information now in the last few minutes befo~e I came into the House ana I have copies for the Public Accounts Committee. Oh~I see what you mean. I am sorry. Sure. NH - 3 Is there a page? ·while we are doing this, if the minister and if the House does not mind - ~· ffi. S}!ALU100D: It should i1ave been - 1.0641.

... June 6, 1977 Tape 3790 Cforning) PK - 1 :-rr. S iiTlons: ~o, no! Actually I made reference to some information I nad for the Public Acco~<ts Committee, and the ~inister asked me if I could have a copy of it. He would ~vind up getting a copy Hednesday anyway, so I Hill just let him have a copy beforehand, that is all. MR. NEARY: The minister will hate you. HR. SIMMONS: No, no. This is some . information,for the benefit of the member for LaPoile (Mr.

Neary), I was just mentioning that quite in addition to the Torbay hangar job there is another job ~1here a lot more money 1vas spent, a lot more money was spent on one building or on one building com?lex. HR. NEARY: That is not the Recreation Centre~is it? :HR. SL~ON.S: No, no. XR. NEARY: There was s9me spent on that too. ~1R.. SI~!ONS: Yes,and as a matter of fact the calls I - MR.. PECKFOPJ): Mr. Chairman, on a point of order again. I understand the great leeway that can be given on t~x bills, but I once again raise a point of order.

In my opinion the han. member is straying and not l.inkingup the whole thing to money matters, uut is continuing to go into extreme detail, meticulous detail on the whole question of alleged irregularities · in the Department of Public Harks, and is not very often or on a regular basis trying to take any pains to link this to the increase in rates of the Insurance Premium Tax, which is the bill under discussion. Im.. s r.1Xmrs : To the point of order, Hr. Chairman. I am presuming that even the member for Green Bay (Hr. Peckford) has some ability to link up. ~fuat I am saying in effect, }lr.

Chaiman - I will do it in a more elementary fashion for him, if he likes ~ I am saying there has been, there is evidence of pretty sloppy spending. TI1erefore - and I am going slo~• for the minister - therefore before this cro~o1d asks us for any more money they should spend ~•ell what they have. }im.J, Hr. Chairman, I am giving a particular example. If you would rather I dwelt on the generality of it, I am prepared to do that. I knmv he does not want to hear the examples because the examples are

June 6, 1977 Tape 3790 (:'1orning) PJ.Z - 2 ~ '1r . S ir..!:lons : devastatin,...,CI'. The 1 11 · t d 1 • · h , examp es may He const~ ute a scan a_ '\v·n~c. gets at the very heart of this government. That is another issue. ~·!R. CF~AIR}ffu-1 C·!R. YOUNG): As I said previously this is a broad ranging debate, and although probably it is taking the hon. member some time to get around to the point he is expressing his opinion as to why the tax should not be imposed. I ask him to continue. MR. S L.'-IT·fONS: Thank you. Hr • Chairman. SOME RON. MDIBERS: ~::ear, hear! HR. SL'1HONS: Mr.

Chairman, as I tvas saying before I was - ~fR. NEARY: How can you stomach it ?You tvere always against scandals,were you not? How can you stomach it? AN RON. ME~1BER: (Inaudible) HR. NEARY: How can you stomach it? HR. SUlMONS: ?1r. Chairman, as I was saying for the benefit of the han • member for LaPoile (Mr. Neary),there is another building or a set of buildings - there are two or three buildings involved- right beside each other in town where a particular electrical contractor has done a lot more work. The Torbay example is just a drop in the bucket; remember it was $305,000, sixty-six wo~k orders.

But I am talking about another one now, Mr. Chairman, where there were 204 tvork orders, and are you ready for the amount? 204 work orders - AN HON. MEl-1BER: (Inaudible) • . . -- - MR. SIMMONS: No, no! It is not in there! Two hundred and four ~-ork orders totalling $616,000. MR. NEARY: What building? MR. SHlMONS: Two hundred and four work orders - :rR. MCNEIL: Are you sure? Are you sure? HR. S Jl-fi-10NS : Yes. $616,000. MR. NEARY: What building ~vas that? :m. SU1HONS: I do not think tve need to point fingers at the building right now because I want to make a point without drawing 10643

. ~une 6, 1977 Tape 2790 Ctornin

g) PK - 3 ~·l r • S i:m:tons : attention to the building. in Committee on Wednesday. The building itself ~·Till get - discussed But I do ~vant to make the point to the ~Iinister of Public Works, in particular, that he is on a very dangerous course when he insists that the best way to do this is internallyt he is on a very dangerous, on a very sticky wicket.

Because I say .to him that the Torbay job and the job that I have just quoted,the $600,000,and the .LeUarchant Road job, and we could talk about many, many others, there are fifteen or twenty of these - how about if I told him about another one, another one altogether,which is not in this documentation,on which last evening I had a call from the person who is in charge of that particular building, that is to say he is the boss man in the building where his function is being performed, and he said, 11 l.C)ok," I see you are in the paper about this A.B.

Walsh crowd .n He said, "Do you want to know something?" He said, "That crowd have been over in our place since January, we do not know what they are doing over there." He said, ''Nobody", he said, "I actually took the trouble to ask my superior :10644

June 6, ·1977 Tape No. 3791 EC - 1 MR·. SIMMONS : if anybody requested any work to be inspected or done over in oar building'~ MR. NEARY: Not only that, but this particular gentleman asked for a full-time electrician and they would not give one to him and he could have got him for about one hundredth of the price it cost to put the contractors in there. Were they loafing around? MR. SIMMONS: It is on this particular building I am talking about. The contractors have been there since January,., steadily there since ~anuary, and I asked the fellow if he could get me an est~ate of how much work was done.

So he d.id it and he called me back. And he said, "'Nell, look, boy, this is pretty rough," he said, "but it would seem that there is anywhere from $60,000 to $100,000 for electrical work. MR. NEARY: And they would not give him a full-time electrician, only staff, which they could have got for about $12,000 or $13,000. MR. SIMMONS: building. MR. NEARY: I do not know if we are talking about the same Well it is not too far from here. , You can see it from this building here. MR. SIMMONS: I see. No, no. Yes, I know that story too. That is another one. But I am talking about one further downtown.

You could not see it from here. Not physically could you see it from this building even if the fog had lifted. So, Mr. Chairman, you know, if what the minister wants is the old sledgehammer approach, if what he wants is an example today, I can give him one today in the press, I can give him another one tomorrow, I can give him another one Wednesday,for the next three weeks. I say to the minister, I can give him another example in the press each day which will help influence public opinion towards the need for an inquiry.

Or instead, since he is sitting on top of the heap, he can do what has to be done right today and say, 'Look, there is only one way out of this mess or this possible mess, only one way, and that is do what the Premier did on the T.V. set, bring a motion into the House setting up a ·full public inquiry under the Public Inquiries Act.' Now if somebody can convince me that a T.V. 10645

.. -· June 6, 1977 Tape No. 3791 EC - 2 ~m. _SIMMONS: set is important enough to have an inquiry on but $616,000 or $305,000 is not, well, I would like to know where the priorities are with this crowd. I would like to know how they justify one and not the other. And I would have thought, Mr. Chairman, that once the word was out that the RCMP were in investigating the Torbay hangar job, I would have thought it was only a matter of the minister getting time to get back to his desk to draft the necessary resolution that we would have the full inquiry. And I do not know what they are holding out for.

And I will tell you the net result of the holding out. The net result of it, whether the minister is aware of it or not,is that if there is some wrongdoing - HR. NEARY: Covering up. MR. SIMMONS: - there is room for a cover-up. And I will tell you what I am afraid of, seriously. I am s~riously afraid, with the evidence I have, Mr. Chairman, that we may well have another Viking fire one of those days, not necessarily in the Viking building. People are getting pretty hot to trot, Mr. Chairman. People are getting pretty nervous. When I am t!Jld, Mr.

Chairman, that one person who was being asked too many questions about the electrical work being performed said to a third party, "I do not know if I should answer any more questions without my lawyer present," it makes me wonder, Mr. Chairman, and I cannot help saying that. Now again, you know, I could wave my arms and talk about scandals and so on and so forth, but I believe, more central to the issue, Mr. Chairman, is the need for the Minister of Public Works to do what has to be done. Mr. Chairman, it is clear. How much more convincing do they need?

And as I said to him, if he needs more I am prepared to parade out an example every day of the week for thenext three weeks because I am convinced that the only way to know really what has gone on here in the past two or three years - and if they want to go back twenty years, Mr. Chairman, that is all right by me too. I am not concerned whether they do that or not: It does not bother me one way or the other. If twenty-fi-ve years makes them happier, -or t'ienty-seven or whatever the magic figure is right now,that is fair by me.

But at least I would like to know whether the people presently in the department and the people :t0646

June 6, 1977 Tape No. 3 791 Ec· - 3 MR. SIHMONS: presently doing work for the government without any tenders called, and bear in mind what I said just now, Mr. Chairman, $616,000 here over a three year period with no tenders called, not one tender, Mr. Chairman, for that entire amount of money not one tender, $616,000, 204 work orders altogether, an incredible situation, incredible~ AN RON. MEMBER: ~t -~ mess! MR. SIMMONS: That is right. An incredible situation! You know, what a sloppy way~ It is li~e a fellow going to build a house and he says, 'Now I think I will have company X build the living room for me,and have :1.0647

June 6, 1977, Tape 3792, Page 1 -- apb HR. SI.Mt,1QNS: company 'Y' build the bedrooril but they will not put the paper on the North wallr I will get company 'Z' to put the paper on the North ~vall and I will get company 'R' to put a light in the ceiling, but the lamp I am going to get put in by another company. The carpet on the floor, that \'lill be another company, except the carpet in the hall should be by another company~ Andit is just that ridiculous, Mr. Chairman. It is like deciding to build a ~ouse.

Well.,the house of about $40,000 or $50,000 on this scheme right here would be built by about,oh probably, twenty contractors. You would have twenty contractors in building a house. Can you imagine that? I mean even the stundest, even the stundest of us would not do it that wayr and yet that is what they have done here. Not only that, Hr. Chairman, I am being kind. I am talking about twenty different contractors to build a house. They had 204 contractors but it was the same contractor. All 204 work orders, Mr. Chairman, without exception were written out to the same contractor.

That contractor got $616,885.65 and this crowd wants me to approve some more money1 They are nuts! They are nuts! They are spending much too badly what we have already and they want a few more cents to guzzle away on their buddies? Not likely. Not likely, Mr. Chairman. I have done some foolish things in my day but I am sure I am not going to become this stund this late in the stage. More money they want,is it? If they would clean up their act, Hr. Chairman, they could very well get along 9n the money they have. . - . Mr. Chairman, let us qo back to the Tnr.h~~ hangar job for a moment, that job that cost $305,000.

Experienced electrical consultants in-~he field say that could have been done · for anywhere from $75,000 to $125,000. It could have 1J)648

June 6, 1977, Tape 3792, Page 2 -- apb M.~. SIH!IONS: . been for aniWhere from one- quarter to one-third of the amount, Hr. Chairman. MR. N. NINDSOR: Point of order, Mr. Chairman. The han. gentleman is obviously referring to some figures that he tabled in the Public Accounts meeting last week. These figures were gotten from electrical contractors, I understand, by telephone, with the han. gentleman saying, . ' We would like this and this and this.done and giving a rough idea of what work was to be done. No contractor could give a valid estimate based on those figures.

Certainly those figures were not accepted by the Public Accounts Committee. I made it very clear myself,as a member of that Committee, when they were tabled that I did not consider they were worth the paper they were written on and I say so again now. If the hon. gentleman wishes to refer to them, of course, he may but let it be made very clear that they are only figures that he received by telephone and are certainly not valid. MR. SIMMONS: Mr. Chairman, I submit at most it is a difference of opinion. It was the member for Mount Pearl {Mr. N. Windsor) who made reference to the Public Accounts Committee.

I at no time mentioned them in relation to the Committee, I mentioned only that electrical consultants had told me. I understand in this day and age it is legitimate to be told by telephone. I unders~and a lot of thi~gs are said by telephone quite · legitimately. So actually, Mr. Chairman, the member is right:I committed the sin of talking by telephone. I got my information by telephone, I did it on the basis, ~lr. Chairman, of fairly exact information but I do not think that is germane to the point of order. The fact is that we have a difference of opinion and I am glad on this one, Mr.

Chairman, that I am on the side that is saying the job.cost too much. :10649

June 6, 1977, Tape 3792, Page 3 -- apb !1R. SI.HHONS: If the mE:.'tlber for r-lount Pearl (Hr. N. Windsor) thinks it did not cost too much I am glad he is saying it and not me. MR. PECKFORD: Hr. Chairman, to that point of order. The question of whether a telephone is a legitimate form of communication in this Province or anywhere in this Continent is hardly the question at issue that the hon. the member for ~1ount Pearl was trying to elucidate on a few minutes ago.

The question is that the han. the member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir is using figures which he by implication is saying are valid in relation to dollar value for work performed at Torbay in relation to -the speech that he is giving. All the hon. the member for Mount Pearl is trying to say is that these figures that the hon. member is using and by imp~ication is saying they are valid, are not valid and that is all of it as I understand it. MR.

CHAIRMAN : The point of order as raised by the han. the member for Mount pearl has been responded to and explained by the member for Burgee - Bay d'Espoir and I feel it is just a difference of opinion and I will ask the hon. the member for Burgee -Bay d'Espoir to continue. MR. SIMMONS: What was the ruling? MR. NEARY: You are all right. MR. Sn1MONS: Difference of opinion? MR. NEARY: Go on, you are all right. MR. SIMMONS: Okay, thanks. !1r·.

Chairman, I am glad the member for Mount Pearl raised the point of order because perhaps I ought to explain to the Committee exactly what I did on this particular issue so there is no doubt about · the validity of my· information. I first of allt having seen the Torbay hangar job last Tuesday, I just had the impression that .there was a lot of money ·· involved. I am not electrician at all, but when someone 1..0650

June 6, 1977, Tape 3792, Page 4 -- apb ~1R. snmoNS: tells me t!1ere is $300,000 spent on one building, you knmv, you have to ask questions. So I asked a few. I first called a :lJJ651.

June 6, 1977 Tape 3793 (l~orning) PK - 1 ar. Simmons: A good friend of mine in Corner Brook v1ho is not an electrical person at all, ~vho is in general construction and said, "L~ok I am trying to get a handle on some expenditures, ho~v do I go about it?" And I told him the nature of it, without telling him where it t-l~s, and he said, "1-Jhy do you not get a hold of some fellows who were involved in electrical design t-lork?" So he gave me the names of two in Corner Brook. I called an architect h.::re in St. John's, and he gave me the name of another one.

I then called one of them, one of the three, and said, Hhat kind of information ~.rould you give, / what do you normally need to do a rough estimate, a preliminary estimate, not the one you would be held to, but a preliminary estimate? vlhat kind of image would you need? ,..Well,he said, "Obviously we need the MR. NE.ARY: The square footage. ~IR. SIMMONS: - the square footage, the exact size of the room, the ceiling heights, what kind of installation is in the buildingi if you are talking about electric heat. What kinds of fixtures are you talking about?

Are they Cadillac fixtures or Volkswagen, you know, what quaJity, what kind of conduit1 Because I understand there is the thin wall and the other•whatever they call it?.the heavier conduit. You know, give us some indications ~.,hat size service is in the building? What amperage service? The whole bit. I then called an electrician from Newfoundland Hydro and asked him would he go to the building and get some information for me. I called a person ~ho works for Government Air Services and asked him to measure the building for me. So I got detailed information.

I then called the three electrical consultants and said, Look on the basis of this, what would be your rough estimates? And the rough estimates I got, Mr. Chairman, 1..0652

June 6, l9i7 Tape 3 7 9 3 C·1orning) PK - 2 valid or invalid are $75,200; $93,200; and $125,000 to do a job that cost ne and you the t~{payers of this Province $305,000. Now, :.fr. Chaiman, I ~vill go so far as to say, as the member. for l.·Iount Pearl (::!r. ~. Hinds or) has said, that perhaps indeed, perhaps indeed, i·fr. Chairman, the estimates are not ~•orth the paper they are written on. But, Mr. Chairman, at the very least, at the very least, they dra"tv atten-tion to a problem which ~•e ought to be looking at a lot more closely.

And we have asked and we have begged in this Committee, and in this House for three four months for the government to take heed of so~e of the things that the Auditor General is saying. So far four months later only one minister has even bothered to respond to what the Audi%or General has said. And now we find, now we find, Mr. Chairman, that in the case of one department the Auditor General's identification of some weaknesses, those T.veaknesses are serious enough that ~ve have the RCMP investigating them. So all I ~•anted to . do,Mr. Chairman, was draw attention to the issue, and I have dr~~ attention to it.

And I shall continue to use that tactic, and I v1ill draw attention,if I have to, to every building in this to~m where this skulduggerous thing is going on, ~vhere <:vork is being done well over the $15,000 mark without any public tenders, where contractors are building inflated q~antities, And I will repea% what I said just nmv, }!r.

Chaiman, that if you had to put all of the li~hts .in that building that shows up on that fellow's bills you would have to extend the building. ~~d if you had to put all of the man-hours iL that building and it shm\'s up on these bills you would have to extend the building just to accommodate the men T.Vorking in there,for goodness sake. Nmv that is -.;ii-:a t is go b.g on, ~r. Ch.airman. ~nd I am asked to ignore all of that. I am asked to observL the niceities. I am asked to call tenders, and ~•ait for three ~•eeks. I am not in the tender business, ~1r.

Chaiman, and obviously the government is not either. r Now the fact is, ~1r. Chairman, the fact is ,clearly that the Torbay hangar job constitutes a scandal. 1fhether anybody 10653

Ju:te 6, 1977 Tape 3793 C,!orning) PK - 3 ~- f r. S :i.nnons : on the inside is involved in it is another question, but it involves a scandal. The job I referred to just no•• is a scandal. The other job where the contractor has been put do'lvn there '"ithout any request !or that department of the public service at all, no request to have \vork done, the contractor has been down the~e, he has spent anywhere from $50 to $100,000 down there, that is a scandal. The work that my friend from LaPoile C·ir. Neary) has referred to in the Recreation Centre, that is a scandal. That is a scandal.

And I '"ill go so far as to say, :'-!r. Chairman, I will go so far as to say that ~,.rhen this is all over, ~- !r. Chairman, and w·hen these investigations are complete, and all I am asking, what I am really asking, Mr. Chairman, we in the Public Accour.ts Committee have a certain responsibility, and '"e can pursue it, but 't.rhat I am really saying is this, Hhat I am really saying to the minister is this, Take it out of the hands of the Public Accounts Committe~ - that is what I am reallY saying to him, because it is a job of staggering proportion - and put it in the hands of a full-scale public enquiry.

That is where it belongs. Now as a partisan politician I could have a lot of "fun" - with this over the next three or four months in Committee. But where I v1ould rather see it, Mr. Chairman, is out of the hands of the Public Accounts Committee altogether and in the hands of :1J)654

June 6, 1977 Tape No. 3794 EC - 1 MR. SIMMONS : an impartial public inquiry. That is what I am saying, Hr. Chil.irman. That is where it belongs, because it is an assignment of staggering proportions. You need the research capability, you need the judicial set-up to be able to elicit the information that is required here, testimony under oath and the whole bit. That is what you really need. Yes, there are roadblocks. We are finding this already, Mr. Chairman.

If you want to see what I am talking about somebody read the transcript of May 13, and as I said, it was just like pulling teeth just trying to get information from the Auditor General's office. Now I do not criticize him, but somebody kept assigning reasons to why I wanted the information. You would not have that barricade}obviously, if you were in a judicial inquiry. If the information were asked for it would be supplied without persons trying to interpret it while it is befn.g supplied.

I have asked for information in the March 25 meeting which I do not have yet., which I 'vas promised in two weeks by the Department of ·Public l.Jorl~s, 'vhic.h I do not have. And so it goes, the mechanism. the Public Accounts Committee is working, but it is a rough one. It is a fairly imperfect, a primitive one. And what we need for this particular situation .hP.re. the .sPending practices of the department, what we need here, Hr. Chairman. ·is a full sca~e inquirv. And I am going to keep talking on this one, Hr.

Chairman, in the House until we ~et a full scale inquirv because I am very concerned ~.f Ch · that this has the makings of a . scandal .. r. aJ..rman, that may very ~.rell go to tre very root of this government. It mav well. If it does then I will be tne first to apologize. ~ut the indications I have, Mr. Chairman, is that there is a lot ~ore to this than meets the eye. Mr. Chairman, finally,in conclusion, just before - I realize my time is up and I just have one other sentence.

The Minister of Public Works had been asked a couple of times to supply certain infor- mation to the House about A,B ,C companies, and on March 7, the transcript will show, I asked him in the House, reminded him that he had undertaken three or four weeks ago to get the information and asked when he could have :1.0655 .---

June 6, 1977 Tape No. 3794 EC - 2 MR. SU!MONS: the informati-on for the House ·. Aitd he indicated that it would be in the very near future. And then I rose in a supplementary and in part, I said, "I would say to the minister that it is very much in his interest to say to the House whatever he knows about the affair." I was telling the minister on the 7th day of March that there was a lot more to this than meets the eye, a lot more to this than meets the eye. Nobody was listening. But,Mr. Chairman, right now the RCMP are listening. The RCMP are asking . questions.

The only regret I have is that their questions are restricted to one company. Because it goes much, much deeper than that particular company, Mr. Chairman, much deeper. It gets into a number of companies. It get into a number of people. Finally, Mr. Chairman, on March 22, when we discussed the T.V. issue I spoke in that debate and I said on page 3227 of the transcript~ I said, in concluding, Mr. Speaker, mi believe there are deeper and broader indications than are immediately apparent from the statements from the Leader of the Opposition. I have reason to believe that." Mr.

Chairman, I have had that reason to believe that for a long time, and the sooner the minister starts listening to what I am saying and the sooner he sets up the inquiry the better for all concerned including,in particular, his department and his colleagues in government. MR. CHAIRMAN: The han. member for LaPoile. MR. NEARY: I am not trying to filabuster on this particular matter, Sir, but I firmly believe, I sincerely believe that this House should not close, that the government should not try to rush to close the House with this appearance of a great scandal with all the other scandals hanging over their head.

I do not wish to belabour the point, Mr. Chairman. But we have had Royal Commissions of inquiries and police investigations into much lesser things in this Province. And if anybody knows that it is none other than yours truly. And my han. friend, the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment keeps sticking the little . darts in, and the little pricks in here and there. I am referring to the Mifflin inquiry that involved welfare recipients.

And I was the one who asked for the inquiry and was completely cleared of any wrongdoing in connection with that apart fro~ trying to run my department,interfering -:w:tth - the bureaucrats; the ' Deputy · Minister and the Assistant Deputy Minister and the fellows who write the memos. That was the only criticism 10656

June 6, 1977, Tape 3795, Page 1 -- ab HR. NEARY: could be found and so 'tole _ had an ~nquiry into that.

And 'tve have an enquiry now going on into the colour television sets, and that started out to be a great joke, a great joke, and it 'tvas the subject of a joke for a couple of weeks and members of the administration were taking consolation in the fact that the people of this Province were looking upon it as rather a petty matter, a trivial matter and it was just a big joke, it was just the Leader of the Opposition being a little bit vicious and trying to get revenge and out to get the Premier who is the only man to stand in his way of becoming Premier of this Province. t'lell,now it is no longer _a joke because it so happens that the same company that has ripped off the taxpayers, ripped off the public Treasury, happens to be the same company that paid for the repairs on the colour television and delivered the colour television to the han.

Premier's house. Now, Mr. Chairman, how can the han. gentleman, the Minister of Consumer Affairs and Environment,who is so sanctimonious, how can the han. gentleman sit there with the administration and tolerate this great scandal, these scandals that are rocking the administration? First the Scrivener affair, the Fisheries Department scandal, the dollar on the licence plates that my han. friend knows smacks of scandal and corruption and political patronage, and now the Public works scandal. And how can my han. friend from Kilbride (Mr.

Wells),who is such an han. gentleman,sit with that administration and not demand a police investigation or ' a judicial enquiry into all these scandals, especially now the latest one involving the Department of Public Works? How can the han. gentleman sit there and ever again stand in __ this .Hou:se .. ~ anO.. .t~ell: us .iP .. sJ..lc.h _a· s.a.n.ctirnonious~. ·- way of how he is against ::xtravagance and waste and wrong- :10657

June 6, 1977, Tape 3795, Page 2 -- apb NR. NEARY: doing if the bon. gentleman :. does not come out and demand a royal commission of enquiry into the letting of contracts in the Department of Public 1·1orks? And the member for Placentia {Mr.

Patterson), and my hon. friend the ~inister of Fisheries, how can these hon. gentlemen sit there and watch these scandals one after the"other ~eing uncovered and not do anything about it when in other provinces immediately it is brought to the attention of the •administration, in other provinces and in Ottawa, an investigation is immediately launched, and not an internal investigation, Sir, designed to do a whitewash job and to sweep it under the rug. Mr.

Chairman, I contend that the investigation should be a full-fledged investigation involving not only civil servants but the elected representatives of the people of this Province so that they can clear their skirts, so that they can prove to the people of this Province they are providing honest and decent government and that there is no rip-offs and no collusion and no patronage and no - what do you call that pressure heap one? - no pressure, and no influence peddling, no coercion on the part of anybody in government. It should not be restricted to the public servants. The public servants may be just the pawns.

How do we know? That is why there should be a full-fledged investigation . and let the chips fall where they may. And if there are ministers involved or members on either side of the House who have been influence peddling, which is a crime, which is against the Criminal Code of Canada, then sobeit, let it be brought out into the open. I contend, Sir, before this House closes the Premier of this Province has no choice - but ··to take ·· the- -oinitiative and , ~launch .a ··ful.l .­ fledged police investigation into the goings on in the i0658

June 6, 1977, Tape 3795, Page 3 -- apb :,!R. NEARY: Departrnent of Public ~·lorks. It is most irregular for the Auditor General to have to ask to have the R.C.H.P. brought in to do an investigation. It is the Premier or the minister who should have done it. But obviously it was not going to be done and the responsib .ility fell on the shoulders of the Auditor General, who ·is to b~ highly commended for taking the initiative.

It is the government who should have taken the initiative the same way as my hen. friend had to take the initiative one time in connection with the Valdmanis case,that is poked down his throat so often, when my hon. friend had to call in the R.C.M.P~ and have the late Dr. Valdmanis arrested for wrongdoing. So should this administration, so should the Premier of this Province take the initiative and launch a full-fledged investigation and let the chips fall where they may. 1..0659

June 6, 1977 RT-1 ~1R. NEARY: If there is any cuddling up by ~Iinisters to A.B. ~-lalsh or members on either side, or if there are any other companies doing business ~vith the De!Ja=tn:.ent of Public 1-lorks, then they . should be exposed. If there is any influence peddling, any patronage, corruption, under-the-table deals, or coercion, bring it all out into the open, and this House should not close until it is done. I am sure my han. friend, the ~nister of. Consumer Affairs, will buy that, . will go along with that.

The 1linister is saying, Yes • ~vell, I hope the Minister will bring pressure to bear on the Premier of this Province. and the Cabinet, his colleagues, to have this done, and that the member for Exploits (Dr. Twomey),who is ~ew in this House,will not sit with an Administration that has all the appearances of being riddled with scandal. I am sure the member does not want that sin on his soul, does not want that on his conscience, and the member for Kilbride (Mr. Wells),as I said, and all the other hon. gentlemen~ the Minister of Finance. This House should not close, Sir, until this matter is straightened out.

It will not close if I have anything to do with it, and ~ am prepared to stay here all summer, if necessary, to bring this matter to a head, Sir, because here we are, being asked by the Administration to pay more taxes , we are being asked in this House to approve increase in taxes that will create a hardship for the ordinary people of this Province.

The Hinister of Finance is the gentleman that has to do it on behalf of the Administration, and the particular bill before the house now - and there will be others is the one in connection with insurance, asking us to put a three per cent tax on the ordinary people of this Province on their insurance premiums. Hr. Chairman, just to get off the scandals for a moment, get back to the Auditor-General's report again and to stay within the realm of insurance, let me refer members of the hon. House to Page 17 of the Auditor-General's report, again dealing with insurance.

When I raised the matter the other day, I said to the ~06ti0

June 6, 1977 Tape 3796 RT-2 Minister, "Hhy not take it out of the hide of the insurance brokers or the insurance companies~" The Ydnister did not answer the question. He answered me in connection with corporations and said we had the highest corporation taxes in Canada and there was not room for any more taxes. But, let us see, Sir, if we are doing our duty as elected members of this House as far as collecting the taxes that ~ve are now entitled to collect from insurance companies. I ~.rant to draw the Hinister' s attention to Page 17 of the Auditor .;eneral' s report for the year ended 31 r-farch 1976, Item 31 - HR. J. WINSOR: Which volume? In the red book -

Article No. 31 - let me read it for the benefit of the han. gentlemen. Here we are now going out to sock it to the ordinary people again. Let us see if we are collecting all the taxes ~.re are entitled to collect from the insurance companies under the Insurance Premium Tax Act in this Province. AN -HON • 1-ID!BER: (inaudible) HR. NEARY: 11 The Insurance Premium Tax Act,

Chapter 179 RSN 1970, provides for the imposition of a tax upon persons liable to the payment of certain insurance premiums. Durin~ 1975 and 1976 H insurance premiums totalling $4,552,000 - I beg your pardon - MR. DOODY: It- is on Page 30.The~e are two different books. :t-m. NEARY: Oh, I am sorry, Sir. ''This revenue is comprised mainly of amounts received from insurers' agents who are re~istered under the act to collect and remit the tax received from resident insurance policy purchasers.

It also included amounts determined to be payable as a result of audits conducted by the Department of Finance of mainland companies ,,r1 th one rations in this Province. "In Paragraph 28 of my 1974-75 report, I renorted at length, the results of the Department's failure to establish an adequate system of procedures to deal ~v-ith the collection ,, :10661.

_._:l ___ ------ J une 6 , 197 7 Tape 3 706 RT-3 of tax apolica hle to insurance ourch ase d by colll?anies and individuals from sourees outside the 'Province •11 Three years in a r~-1, not<T, the Auditor-General has reported this, and the Minister ~as done nothing a~out it other than to brin~. in nm<T a tax to create a further hardshi~ on the ordinarr oeople. 11 -"~ 1975-76 revie..;..r of this matter has again disclosed that it remains essentially unchanged.

In TI!'f view, therefore", so says the Auditor-General, a servant of this House, one of the two inde~endent, impartial employees of t_l}e oeotJle of this Province, a servant of this f!ouse~ urn my view, therefore, the Department of Finance should, ~.n. thout further d~lay~ t~~e the required action to develop, document and implement the necessary systents and procedures in order that the full intent of the insurance premiums tax legislation can be attained by insuring that, one, tax owing from individuals who pay tax premiums to companies outside the Province is determi:ned, assessed and collected, tax m<Ting :10662

J:.n~e 6, 19 77 Tape 3797 lb-1. HR.NEARY: from all mainland companies with operations in the province is paid rc~tinely when due as required under the legislation and regular audits of the accounts of the agents and casual remitters of the tax'~ and so forth. 11 Failure to collect all insurance companies tax.'' "The insurance compan:..es tax Act,

Chapter 177, R.S.N. 1970, provides for the imposition of a tax of D.Vo per cent of gross taxable premium income of insurance companies undertaking business in Newfoundland. Amounts totalling $1,367,162 were received and accounted for by the Department of Finance in 1975-1976 in subhead 491 -05. nThe revenue was collected mainly from insurance companies which were licensed to operate within the province. In my 1974-75 report,pzragraph 29, I disclosed that audit had re'Tealed significant deficiencies.'' Mr. Chairman, just listen to this.

The Auditor General on two occasions now has revealed significant deficiencies and inadequacies in the administration of the Act by the Department of Finance. 11As a result of these the departtnent was not insuring that unlicensed companies known to the department to be undertaking insurance contracts in the province were remitting the tax and being assessed by the ~epartment of Fi~ance. 9ome of the companies have neither remitted tax nor been assessed since 1971. ;'And the minister wants $2.8 million~ Here we have these gigantic companies the wealthiest companies in the whole of Canada. MR.

DOODY: Pleftse read the rest nmv. MR..NEllRY: Yes, Sir. "Since that report the department has issued the necessary tax assessments to sixty-two companies who were considered taxable for the year 1971- 1974 and out of the sixty-two companies assessed,twenty-six remitted a total of $6,483, eighteen have denied liability for various reasons. The remaining eighteen have made no reply .11 No reply. The minister comes in with a Bill asking us to sock it to the 1J}6o3

.::me 6, 1977 Tape 3797 ~-JR.NEARY: ordinary people to take this $2.8 million out of the hides of the ordinary ;_Jeople ~•hen eign teen companies, multi-national companies had refused, had ignored the rninister,have not replied to the government's or complied with the gvvernment's request. lb-2. ~JR.DOODY: The Auditor General says that there is an amount of $15,000 probably not collected anong these eighteen companies, all of whom are outside of the province. One of them is in Australia. They refused to send us any money. \·le sho.uld take them to court? How much would that cost the people of Newfoundla.."'ld?

TI1e Auditor General is absolutely right in what the Act reads. But to try to do what he says is impractical in terms both of returns to the people of the province and in cost to the people of the province in trying to collect it. If he wants to interpret the Act the way he does he is absolutely correct.

But to ask in the name of commonsense and business judgement to go to Australia, to go to Ne~v Zealand, to go to various mainland companies who have one or two individual policy holders here in this province and take them to court in their j urisdict'ion is just impossible·,-:!.:npractical and nonsensical. does make good reading. But it l<!R.NEARY: Oh, Mr. Chairman, the han. gentleman just made a major policy speech. Well, the hen. gentleman,I just sat back and listened to the han. gentleman, allowed him to carry on there and interrupt me and make his little interjection.

I hope the han. gentleman ':rill get up on his feet when we are finished speaking on this side and provide us with the information. Never mind, because I get him riled up, I get the han. gentleman riled up and he loses his cool. The hon. Premier the other day blew his cool in this House and almost made a mess of it. :~m.; the han. gentleman under a bit of pressure is starting 1..0664

Jun e 6, 1977 Tape 3797 lb- 3. ~·!R . )[EA .. ~Y: to fli p , startin g to lose his coo.: . -: .. le co not know now ~e n is involve9,S ir, lite r all y t housands anci t ho4 sancis of dolla rs. :·lR. DOODY : $ 14 , 000 . XR. NEARY: There is more t han $14, 000 . MR . DOODY: On page 33 , of the .~.udito r General's Report which reads: MR. NEARY: lVhat about it? \Vhat does it say? ~!R .DOODY: It says: The date of audit Oct, 1976 the D epartme~t of Finance had not undertaken adequate additional follow -up of the :t0665

June 6, 1977 Tape 3798 (:,forning) PK - 1 :rr. Doody: thirty-six companies to either collect the assessments totalling $14,930 or to reply to individual coopanies~ ~1R. NEARY: The Auditor General goes on to say., ''I have been repo .rting these matters to the House of Assembly for a number of years and nothing has been done about them. He seems to have taken a little encouragement now in the fact - XR. DOODY: And hire a couple of latvyers - NR. NEARY: - that he is getting a ~1R. DOODY: - and send them to Australia. ~-fR. NEARY: - that he is getting a little response from the officials of the department.

But the failures to collect this money, so ~..re are told by the Auditor General, has cost the Public Treasury a substantial amount of money. MR. DOODY: Fourteen thousand nine hundred and thirty dollars. HR. :NEARY: That is only just one figure, Sir, mentioned in the top. The Auditor General carries on down through the whole page. And I would advise the hon. gentleman to .read- MR. DOODY: I read - MR. NEARY: - the rest of the Audi~or General's report. But that is only one item. The failure to collect the insurance company tax is one item. We have other illustrations the minister is going to bring in shortly.

We think - AN RON. MEMBER: Tobacco tax. XR. NEARY: - a bill to increase the tobacco tax. And "tve "tvill see "tvhat the Auditor General says about that and the hundreds of thousands of dollars that are outstanding in that case that will never be collected. t1R. DOODY: Not outstanding, not - HR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, this hon. crowd, Sir, are taking the line of least resistence. As I said the other day, they are socking it to the ordinary people and letting the big corporations and the big companies get away scot free, borne out by the Auditor General's Report. 10666 (I

June 6, 1977. Tape 3798 Pli - 2 ~rR. :'lEARY: And I could go on, Sir, through this whole matter. Then there is talking about saving money without having to bring in a tax. All He have to do is reaq the Auditor General's Report about the unsounci purchasing procedures in the vocational school and in the other institutions, the other agencies of government. And then we heard about the $5,000 or $6,000 that was spent by the Minister of Justice's executive assistant down politicking down in Grand Bank.

And now we hear about the Hinister of Transportation and Communications .,who is setting up a lounge down in Salvage in the former L.O.A. Hall. His executive assistant, instead of doing taxpayer's "t<TOrk, instead of doing work for the minister and for the government,is out buying furniture for the minister's lounge down in Salvage. And the minister wants to know how he can save money, where he can get his $2.8 million~ Is that in the interest of the people of this Province? Is that what executive assistants are hired for, to be going around buying furniture for lounges that are being opened up by ministers?

Hotv much more? Mr. Speaker, look, all this just seems to glance off the administration. It does not seem to sink in at all. The han. gentlemen think they can do what they like with the taxpayers' money and that .the taxpayers \ t,.ill not care. They can not do what they like, Sir. It is about time it started to sink in. And han. gentlemen cannot sit over there with smirks on their faces and joke about this, that it is a very serious matter. It has all the appearances of corruption, collusion, influence peddling, under-the-table deals, shady deals, fraud.

And it should not be restricted to just an internal investigation by the minister's own officials. It should involve the elected representatives of the people of this Province to find out if ~~e are getting good government. Then we hear in the Auditor General's Report- what else is in here, let me see, there is so much in here you can hardly keep track of it all. It is hard to keep it all in your head - about the moose licenses that :10667

June 6 , 19 77. Tape 3798 RE - 3 are given out every year, the complimentary licenses. The records of the Department of Tourism show that during 1975 complimentary licenses were again issued contrary to the 'ilildlife regu!.ations. And I suppose somebody will get up now and say the Auditor General does not know ~v:hat he is talking about.

The Auditor General says it is contrary to the regulations, the wildlife regulations • The Hinister of Tourism now or the Minister of Finance will in a minute say, "Oh yes, the Auditor General has to do his job and he is only quoting what the la~; - are the ministers above the law? Do they not have to follow the law -of this Province? Who makes the laws? This House makes the laws. The ministers think they can break. them. The Auditor General t .ells us that the wildlife regulations 1J)668

June 6, 197i Tape 3799 .J:-1 - 1 '·rR. ~'l'EARY: nre violated year after year after year. For e:l;atnple, he says a total of 136 noose licenses were issued in 1975 to re