Volume 2 PROVINCE OF NEWFOUNDLAND THIRTY-SIXTH GENERAL ASSEMBL V OF NEWFOUNDLAND 2nd Session Number 27 ======= =====e....= = ============= ==-===~= · .. VERBATIM REPORT Thursday, March 15, 1973 SPEAKER: THE HONOURABLE JAMES M. RUSSELL

March 15, 1973 The House met at 3:00 P.M. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Tape no. 618 Pagel - MRW HON. T. M. DOYLE (Minister of Tourism): Mr. Speaker, I have a brief statement that I would like to make at this time. Due to the severe winter conditions being experienced along the Southern Labrador Coast this winter, which has resulted in limited supplies of meat reaching certain communities in the area and because of representations made to me by the M.H.A. for Labrador South, I have decided to extend the open season for caribou,in the eaatern zone of Labrador only, up to and including March 24.

I must emphasize, however, that my wildlife officials have some reservations that the caribou herd, which the people in the area have located, may form part of the Mealy Mountain herd. If this in fact is the case, we may be forced to cut back on next year's quota in the Mealy Mountain Area. MR. H. W. C, GILLETT: Mr. Speaker, I have what is called a supplementary list to support the petition,presented last year to this honourable House, concerning the road leading from Indian Cove to Herring Neck.

Now this supplementary list is comprised of signatures of clergymen, teachers, principals, companies, such as the Locke and Bursey Bus Service. Steers Limited, because these companies concerned have their own trucks and busses going over this road daily. I am quite positive that the hon. Minister of Transportation and Communications is well aware of the condition of this road even at this very moment. I hope that the petition of last year is on the top of the pile that he has so that it will not be very difficult to find to attach this to it. I have pleasure in supporting this supplementary list, Mr.

Speaker, and would ask that it be laid on the table and referred to the department to which it relates. HON. T, A. HICKMAN (Minister of Justice): Mr. Speaker, the statement I am about to make is being released jointly by the honourable Otto Laing, Minister of Justice,and myself at this time. On February 21, 1973, the 2011

March 15, 1973 Tape no. 618 Page 2 Htnl•t•r of Ju•ttce and the Attorney General of Canada and myaelf •:iu,cuted two federal/provincial agreements; the firat respecting legal aid in matters relating to the criminal law and the second providing for compensation to victims of crimes. This is the sixth legal aid agreement and the third compensation agreement to be concluded between the federal and provincial governments.

Under the legal aid agreement, the f~deral government will pay to Newfoundland annually up to fifty cents per capita to assist the province in providing legal aid to eligible persons in need of a lawyer's services where they are charged with an offence,or subject to certain proceedings under federal laws.

Based on the population figures of June 1, 1972, this will constitute a maximum payment to Newfoundland of about $266,000 during the first year of the agreement, The federal/provincial agreement ensures that legal aid will be made available to any eligible person charged with a serious offence, punishable by way of indictment against

an Act of Parliament or suject to proceedings under the Extradition Act or the Fugitive Offenders Act. In the case of lesser offences against the Federal Act or regulations, punishable by

summary conviction,and proceedings under the Juvenile Delinquents Act, the agreement requires that legal aid be made available to any eligible person where the agency administering the Provincial Legal Aid Programme believes that the accused person may suffer serious hardship if convicted. The agreement also provides for legal aid to be made available where appeals are taken to higher courts in the above cases and the provincial agency is required to take reasonable measures to enable an accused to obtain a lawyer without delay as soon as he has been arrested or detained. The ftnancial eligibility of a person to qualify as a recipient of legal aid is to be determined

March 15 1 1973 . Tape 619 by the provincial agency applying a flexible needs teat which takes into account the ability of the applicant to retain his own lawyer without going into substantial debt or being forced to sell 1110dest necessary assets. The agency may thus authorize the payment on behalf of the applicant of all the costs of the legal services provided or it may pay a portion of the costs requiring the applicant to pay the balance where he is able. The agency may not refuse a person legal aid only because he is not ordinarily resident in the province.

In cases of the most serious offences where that possible penalty for the accused is life imprisonment or capital punishment the legal aid applicant must be permitted to chose hie own lawyer if he so desires. In all other cases the agreement enables the province to determine the method or methods by which legal aid ia to be provided for persons charged under federal laws. "Thia is a very important provision in the agreement," said Mr.

Laing, "for it recognizes the right of the province to chose the system of delivering legal services it deems most appropriate while at the same time recognizing that in the most serious criminal cases the accused should have the opportunity to retain the counsel of his choice." JM - 1 The agreement provides that the Federal Attorney General may name a member of the provincial agency to keep him informed of current developments in the provincial legal aid programme. Mr. Laing expects to announce the name of his representative on the legal aid committee of the Law Society of Newfoundland within the next few weeks.

The agreement on legal aid in criminal law matters is to be reviewed as to its financial provisions at the end of three years and either party may terminate the agreement by giving the other party one years notice in writing. The agreement on compensation for victims of crimes provides 201i5

March 15. 1973 Tape 619 for the federal government to contribute annually to the Newfoundland Compensation Plan an amount up to five cents per capita. On the basis of the 1972 census figure the sum to be paid will be approximately $27,000. The agreement provides for compensation awards to be made to both innocent victims of some forty criminal offences set out in a

schedule appended and to persons injured whilst assisting in JM - 2 the lawful enforcement of federal laws where the victim or injured person is not able to recover damages for physical injuries from the wrongdoer in the nonnal course of events. The provincial compensation agency is authorized to award compensation to the victim, to persons responsible for the victims maintenance or in the case of the victims death to his dependents.

In determining the amount of the award the Crimes Compensation Board may allow compensation for expenses reasonably incurred, loss of income, maintenance of dependents, pain and suffering and other pecuniary loss or damages. The board will also take into account and may deduct from the amount of the award any compensation of damages received by the injured person or victim from other sources. A person who otherwise qualifies for compensation will not be refused an award on the ground that he was not ordinarily resident in the province at the time of the injury or death.

At the time of signing the compensation agreement with Newfoundland Mr. Laing said, (and I quote) "I think it is essential that the state seek to provide a reasonable amount of compensation to persons injured as a result of criminal activities where the victim has no possibility of recovering the usual damages from the wrongdoer.

While the state ca~not afford a comprehensive compensation programme that would cover all offences or include loss of property as well as phyRical injuries I believe this agreement will go a good diRtance in covering some of the most serious consequences to victims arising from the commission of criminal offences." ') 0 i /• ,., .1. -

March 15, 1973 Tape 619 JM - 3 May I say at the same time, Mr.· Speaker, that the signing of these two agreements I hope constitutes an indication by the federal government of its willingness to assume some responsibility to assist the provinces in administering laws which come under the exclusive jurisdiction of the Parliament of Canada. There is an unconatable disparity in the administration of justice throughout Canada because of the financial inability of some of the provinced to provide adequate facilities and modem techni~ues in administering the laws of the land.

I hope the signing of these two agreements can be interpreted as a recognition by the federal government of its grave responsibility to take immediate steps to financially assist the less favoured provinces in eliminating such intolerable disparities. I should like at the same time, Mr. Speaker, to thank the hon. Mr. Laing for his splendid co-operation in bringing these two agreements to a successful conclusion and in initiating the federal involvement in the two programmes covered under the agreement. I table for hon. members a copy of the two agreements which have been igned. KR. ROWE(W.N.): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to make a comment or two in respect of the statement made by the minister. First of all, Sir, let me say that this is something which will be debated and looked at at some length when we come to discuss the hon. minister's estimates, the main estimates in the House and then I am sure we will also hear from the hon. member for Placentia East who has a very great interest in this type of reform and this kind of progress. Just let me say here at the moment, Sir, that this is a step forward in the administration of law.

It is a step forward as a result of the initiative of the federal government, the federal government under Mr. Turner and now under Hr. Laing' , under th~ir recommendations as Ministers of Ju~tice in Canada hava tnkon thf  al'op forward., I believe that thi11 province, if I can get the mtnflste?"'  allcntion, thi  province is about number 201~

March 15, 1973 Tape 619 11@Vf!O or efitht ere we not in Rigninit these •l'reements? HR . lllC:KMAN: N11mlu•1· A 111. N11mhrr •Ix. So IL h the initiative or tlae federal government which is doing this, the same federal government which is subject to partisan criticism and even,I suppose,slanderous accusations in this House on occasion. I am interested in seeing the disparity which appears to exist between the hon. Minister of Justice and the JM - 4 hon. Minister of Finance with respect to the federal government. The Minister of Justice thanked the hon.

Otto Laing for his splendid co-operation in bringing these two agreements to a successful conclusion. This was, as I say, the initiative of the federal government, a government I believe, Sir, that under the - MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Speaker, to a point of order. This is a matter to be debated and the hon. gentleman is now commencing to debate on this matter. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member is entitled to a few remarks concerning the ministerial statement but I think he is straying a little from the rule of relevancy. MR. ROWE(W.N.): I will sit down almost immediately, Mr. Speaker.

The only thing I want to say is that the federal government, I believe, is in a field of some of these onerous burdens which provincial governments now have to deal with. The federal government is taking a very realistic and responsible view of the situation and is trying to contribute more money of their tax dollars as they can towards the administration of some of these things includinr, the administration of justice. I welcome this agreement and I welcome such initiatives by the federal ~overnment in the field of law and in other fields, Mr. Speaker. REPORTS OF STANDING AND SELECT COMMITTEES: HON. L.D.

BARRY(MINJSTER OF MINES AND ENERGY ) : Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the annual report of the Newfoundland and Labrador Power 201G

March 15, 1973 Tape 619 Co111111iaaion for the year ending March 31, 1972. There are copies here for the hon. members. NOTICES OF MOTION: HON. G.R. OTTENHEIMER{MINISTER OF EDUCATION): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow ask leave to introduce the following bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Memorial University Pensions Act." HON. C.W. DOODY(MINISTER OF INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT): Mr.

Speaker, I give notice that I will on tomorrow introduce a bill, "An Act To Ratify, Confirm And Adopt On the Pnrt Of The Province An Agreement .JM - 5 Made Between The Government Of Canada And The Government Of The Province Of Newfoundland And To Provide For Certain Matters Relating Thereto." That under another name would be the Newfoundland and Labrador Development Corporation. HON. T.M. DOYLE(MINISTER OF TOURISM): Mr. Speaker, I give notice that on tomorrow I will ask leave to introduce a bill, "An Act Further To Amend The Provincial Parks Act." QUESTIONS: HON. J.G.

ROUSSEAU(MlNISTER OF RECREATION AND REHABILITATION): Mr. Speaker, the oral question posed by the hon. member for St. Barbe North yesterday, I have the reply. I am pleased to inform him that the 4-H meeting scheduled for Gander this weekend is going ahead as planned. MR. ROWE(F.B.): Mr. Speaker, I thank the minister for his answer, HON. DR. T.C. FARRELL(MINISTER OF TRANSPORTATION AND COMMUNICATION): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to table the answers to certain questions, question 142 appearing on the order pap~r of March 14, 1973 asked by the hon. member for tabrador North, answer to question 143 asked by the hon. member for Bonavista North appearing on the order paper of March 14, answer to question 144 asked by the hon, member for Labrador North

March 15, 1973 Tape 620 . lB-1 I' Answer to question no. (145),aeked by the honourable member for Labrador North, appearing on Order Paper of March 14, 1973. Answer to question no. (146), asked by the honourable member for Labrador North, appearing on Order Paper of March 14, 1973. Answer to question no. (151), asked by the honourable member for St. Barbes North, appearing on Order Paper of March 14, 1973. Answer to question no. (153), asked by the honourable member for Labrador North, appearing on Order Paper of March 14, 1973.

Answer to question no. (155), asked by the honourable member for Labrador North, appearing on Order Paper of March 15, 1973. Answer to question no. (156), asked by the honourable member for Labrador North, appearing on Order Paper of March 15, 1973. HON. HAROLD A COLLINS: (MINISTER OF MUNICIPAL AFFAIRS ANn HOUSING): Mr. Speaker, I have the answers to question no. (38) in the name of the honourable member from St. Barbes North on the Order Paper dated Febraury 26th and question no. (59) in the name of the same honourable member on the Order Paper dated February 27th. HON. DR. A.T.

ROWE: (!-IINISTER OF HEALTH): l have the answer to question no. (139) on the Order Paper of Wednesday,Harch 14th, asked by the honourable member for St~ Barbee North. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, in the absence of the honourable the Premier who seems to be r,un-shy and has not turned up for the question period for II few dnys,will the honourable acting premier tell the House when or if the r,overnrnent 1s in a position now to make a statement on the downto~m development as wns promised by the Premier about a week n~o to the Concerned Ci th:cnR Committee thnt presented a pet1 tion to the Premier? !ION. 1'. A. lllf.K"IAN: ( MlN lSTEROF JUSTI Cr.): Mr.

Speaker, I nm not aware of any change in the ~ovcrnment's policy as annuncinted by the honourable the Minister of Municipal Affairs and Housinr, 1n this llou~c about two weeks ago. l-1'R. E.ROBERTS: (LEADER OF TIIE OPPOSITION): !-1r. Speaker, the House is aware 2018

March 15, 1973 Tape 620 IB-2 the Premier out tde th• llou11e did make a tatement indicating that the government were nppnr~nt1y rconidering it and we could expect a further st11.tement. Can the H:fniter of Justice indicate to the House when we may expect this further statement which may or may not change the position of the government? MR. HICKMAN: I Am not in a position to indicate, Mr. Speaker, if and when there will he another - MR. ROBERTS: Well, a further question. Will the Deputy Premier undertake to speak to the Premier or somebody down there and find out when we may expect some word on this? MR.

NEARY: Mr. Speaker, also last week the Minister of Rehabilitation and Recreation undertook to get me some information on the Trainor Commission on Youth and Recreation in this province, Ia the honourable minister in a position now to make a statement on this matter? HON . J, ROUSSEAU: (~INISTER OF REHABILITATION AND RECREATION): No, I am sorry. I am still looking for the report. MR. ROBERTS: It is taking a long look. HON. JOHN C. CROSBIE: (MINISTER OF FINANCE): I agree, Hr. Speaker, that the honourable gentleman - Mr. Speaker, I arise on a point of privilege.

It is getting to be a habit but I just have to ~oint it out. I did not do it. There is a headline in the ''Daily News" today on page three which says, "Political patronage is the way things have to be done - - Crosbie." It was never said by me and if you look at the body of the story, the body of the story is more or less correct but the man who makes up the headlines at the "Daily News" ·is obviously subversive or he :ls stupid or he is malicious or he is completely mixed up in the night time. I never said political patronage is the way things have to be done. They are done that way occaBionally.

I would appreciate the "Daily News" having a headline tomorrow saying, "Crosbie said politic11.l patronage is not the way things arc to be done." MR. GILLETTE: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the honourable Minister of Fisheries concerning the experimental or the alleged so-called experimental fishin8 venture of the "Jloeton York",which I believe is the name of the ship, I wonder if the minister can tell 201~,

March 15, 1973 Tape 620 IB-3 th1111 honn11r11hlc llnuAP how thP VPtlttlrP 1., provlnv. out crewwlAti 7 Ar• tlu,y hnvlnP. ,mv prnbl .. 111 with th., Ncowrnom,llnu,1 r:r11wn fl hln11. ln tit~ North of Newfoundland or ,1ff thP 1.al,rndor Coa"t at this time of year? HON. ROY CHEESEMAN: Is the honourable member asking about the crew on the boat itself, the Newfoundlanders involved in the crew? MR. GILLETTE: Yes MR. CHEESEMAN: Not that I am aware of. They completed one trip and came in and went out again. If so, I am not spe~ifically aware of it. MR. NEARY: I would like to direct a question, Mr.

Speaker, to the minister responsible for pollution. Would the honourable minister inform this Hou11e what steps the government have taken to - HON. W. DOODY: (MINISTl•;R OF INDt:STRIAL DEVELOPMENT): No minister 1s responsible for pollution. MR. ROBERTS: We are all responsible. MR. NEARY: I want to ask the minister, Mr. Speaker, what steps the government have taken to co-operate with the city council in finding a suitable dump to replace Robin Hood Bay? H6N. T.V.

HICKEY:( MINISTER OF PROVINCIAL AFFAIRS AND ENVIRONMENT): Clean Air, Water and Soil Authority are working with the Municipal Council in the Town of Mount Pearl and all the other town councils and communities from Pouch Cove to Holyrood in determining what the future should be and what the policy should be with regards to waste disposal areas and as to what method should he uc;ecl. There shou] d be an announcement shortly. As to a studv, when it is ready the announcement will be made. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a suplementary question. Will the minister indicate who is doing this study.

Is it the Clean Afr, Water and Soil Authority or is it an independent study? Is it being made for the government or h1 it being made for the City of St. John's? MR. HICKEY: There hns been no decision, Mr. Speaker, as to who will do the study. WI' have oskc-d for proposnls. The deciRion has not been made. Tbe cltotcr hns not hecn mnde. There arc I helieve four or five proposals which linvi, alre11dy 11rrlvrd. The.y ,ire hefnr comddered. No decision has been 9 0 '·' 11 f.w , ....

March 15, 1973 Tape 620 IB-4 made and when that is made there will be an announcement accordingly. MR. WINSOR: Mr. Speaker, might I direct a question to the honourable Minister of FisherieA. I meant to supplement the question asked by my colleague, the memher for Twillingate. la it correct that half the voyage or just shout half of the voyage of the "Boston York" was foiled because of machinery breakdown? When the minister answers, if so who is res~onsible? MR. CHEESEMAN: No, I am aorry, I cannot answer the question but I will undertake to get the information for the honourable member. MR. WOODWARD: Mr.

Speaker, a great Concern exists in the Happy Valley­ Goose Bay area with regards to the development of the Lower Churchill. I would like to direct a question to the honourable Minister of Finance. Can he inform the House if there is any likelihood of this project getting started this summer? MR. CROSBIE: Mr. Sneaker, it is not possible to say whether the project will be started this summer or not because no final agreement has been entered into between the Churchill Falls and Labrador Coporation and ourselves nor is there any agreement between them and any possible purchaser of the power.

If matters are cleared up in the next several months or if work gets started this year, the survey work and this kind of preliminary work, if it did get started this year there would be very little construction work. It would be preparatory work and the real work would commence the followi~g year. MR. W. ROWE: I would like to ask the Minister of Finance a supplementary question on the same topic.

Is the government restricting any negotiations which have taken place to date to the Churchill Falls Coporation or are negotiations going on with other people1 Has the decision in other words been taken that if the thing docs go ahead that the Churchill Falls Corporation will he the ones who will be developing it? MR, CROSJ\TE: The position there, Mr.

Speaker, f.s that Churchill Falls and Labrador Corporation have the rip,hts to the power development on this river,grnnted to them by the paRt sdminiRtratfon,and I think that those rights continue until 1982 or some year later. negotiate with Anyone else So, we could not

March 15, 1973 Tape NO. 621 NH - l MR ~ R__q__SBIF.: ~e can talk to other people but negotiations with anyone else will have to keep that fact in mind because if we took those rights away, we would naturally have to compensate them. So any negotiations we are having at the momentare w1th Churchill Falls or Brinco alone and not with any other group. MR.

ROBERTS: Supplementary, I hesitate to differ with the minister but I heard him say that Churchill Falls have the right, as I recall the statute, a right.if it is proven financially feasible to do it, but if not then anybody else who will take it on, w~uld the minister confirm that, because I think that is significantly different from merely saying Churchill will have a stran~lehold on it. As I understand it, they merely have the right,if it is feasible. lf it is feasible and they will not use the right, then the government are at liberty to negotiate with whom they wish. MR.

CROSBIE: The exact position is that Churchill Falls had been given the right to develop the water power of the Churchill River and other rivers in Labrador and they have that right for a certain number of years, I have to check the exact yearr, lf they did not proceed with it and we said it was feasible to do so, they could not retain that right up to that time. The position is,however, they have indicated they want to develop the Lower Churchill, Now they cannot proceed to develop it without receiving a lease from the Government of Newfoundland. What we are discussing with them are the terms of that lease.

We have told them that we have no intention of sir,ninr, any lease based on the same terms and conditions of the Upper Churchil 1, and WI' have told them we have certain terms and condjtions thnt WI' think thiR Rhould be ba11ed on. These are much brttcr tcrmo Rnd conditionR. 2 0 •., .·, ......

March 15, 1973 Tape No. 621 NM - 2 MR. CROSBIE: We have been examining with them the implications of terms and conditions that we have •uRge•ted,whether they are financially possible or not, whether they would get .a proper return or not under those terms and condition•. This has taken a lot of examination by our officials. Moat of this information has now been exchanged, o the best way 1 can put it; I would expect we will have some information within the next few weeks or a month or two as to the exact position. I think that puts it the right way. We have not negotiated with anyone else.

That is not to say that it has not been mentioned, there have now been some talk• but no one else has been ner.otiated with. MR. WM. ROWE: A further supplementary on the topic. I think it is a topical question. Mr. Speaker, has the government given any firm . consideration, for the want of a better word, to developing the Lower Churchill itself, to the Newfoundland and Labrador Power Collllllieion. MR. CROSBIE: It is certainly being considered a a poesi~le alternative, not in any detailed sense but that ia one of the alternatives. The difficulty with it is the amount of 1110ney we would have to raise ourselves.

The organization of the project, you would have to have top notch people to do that. Brinco and Churchill Falls, although they have such a team. There are a lot of difficulties involved. In addition there would be all the money that we would have to borrow for other purposes as well. So that has been thought about. We are prepared to have Churchill Falls do it.if we can reach satisfactory terms and conditions with them because,number one,they have already shown that they can do a project like this in a magnificent way and they have the know-how. They are putting this on stream well within their cost estimates.

They have shown they are efficient. They have been good to deal with, So the government, as I understand the

March 15, 1973 Tape No. 621 NM - 3 MR. CROSBTF.: position, is quite prepared to have them go ahead as long as we can ensure that we are getting all that we can out of them for the people of Newfoundland. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Public Works would inform the House for what purpose the Sir Robert Bond auditorium down on the third floor, the mezzanine floor,is being renovated? MR. EARLE: Mr. Speaker, the Sir Robert Bond auditorium is being converted into office space. I will be occupied by the departments on that floor in future. It will be discontinued as an auditorium.

MR, NEARY: Supplement question, Mr. Speaker, does that mean now that we are going to save the military museum upstairs and instead renovate the Sir Robert Bond auditorium? Is that the reason behind it? MR. EARLE: I think my colleague, the Minister of Tourism, already made a statement about the military museum.upstairs. That i~ to remain where it is. MR.

NEARY: The Minister of Mines and Energy, I wonder if the minister would inform the House what steps the government has taken to carry out an independent investigation into the alleged abuse and misuse of helicopters and equipment and vehicles at the Power Commission operation in Bishops Falls and reports that last fall,at one of camps, the equipment was used to hunt and kill and take out of the woods moose, which was reported to the honourable minister several weeks ago. MR.

SPEAKF.R; If the honourable minister wishes to answer I shall ----- --- permit him, but I think it is the type of questioris that should be plnced on the Order rnper. MR. RARRY: Mr. Speaker. l will give the honourable member immedill te indication, 1 received,eevcral weeks a~o, a letter making certain 2o c:, /' ·- -

March 15, 1973 T-ape No. 621 NM - 4 MR. BARRY: allegations with respect to the operations of the Power CoD1JDission. I initially requested the Colllfflission's commentB itelf and a report on the allegations. Thia report was received by me only last Thursday, I think it was. At first glance the report appears to meet the allegations, However, I have to confess that I have not had an opportunity to study the Commission's comments fully. I will do so. I will then decide as to whether the allegations have been met satisfactorily or whether a further investigation is warranted.

That is about all I can say at this time. ORDERS OF THE DAY: MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Minister of Manpower and Industrial Relations ~hat action,if any, the government is taking to assist in the strike that started this morning at Buchans? MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, if either party require any help from my department, they will receive whatever is available and whatever we can do for them in the way of conciliatory efforts. MR. NEARY: That seems like a satisfactory arrangment, Mr. Speaker.

I would like now to direct a question to - I think the hospital in Buchana is not yet under the Department of Health. I understand that due to the strike, Mr. Speaker, that the employees have agreed to carry on the essential services in the town and in the hospital for one week. What steps have the government taken to carry on ~e operation of that hospital after that week is up? DR. ROWE: Mr.

Speaker, in answer to the honourable member for Bell Island, the information came to us this morning that the union would keep the heating plant open to the hospital and various school - place a mobile generator in so we can keep heat and light to the hospital. Officials are working on the possilbity of providing this mobile unit so that the hospital would not have to close. •.;o,,,. ,., ......

March 1.5, 197 3 Tape No. 621 NM - .5 On motion that the Houae go into Co111mltt•• of Supply to conaider certain estimates regarding the granting of interim aupply to Her Majesty, Mr. Speaker left the Chair. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY: MR. CHAIRMAN: Before this afternoon's preceedings commence, I would like to make a ruling on a matter which came up in Collllllittee of Supply on 1~esday afternoon.

My officials and I have researched the authority as best we possible could and the best authority on this subject is Erskine May I now quote from him at page 416, the eighteenth edition of Erskine May, where it says as follows: "Matters awaiting the adjudication of a court of law should not be brought forward in debate. Following the First Report of the s'elect Co1111111ttee on Procedure, 1962-63, the House(which is the House of Commons in England) passed a resolution which set out the rule in detail.

This Resolution bars references in debate (as well as in Motions and Questions) to matters awaiting or under the adjudication in all courts exercising a criminal jurisdiction and in courts martial from the moment the law is set in motion by a charge being made to the time when verdict and sentence have been announced, and again when notice of appeal is given until the appeal is decided, 2 0 c-, ,, ......

Ma.rch 15, 1973 Tape 622 PK- 1 In the case of court martial it applies from the time the charge is made and to the sentence of the court has been confirmed and promulg~ted and, again when the convicted man petitions the Army Council, the Air Council, or the Board of Admiralty, These are English bodies. The ban further applies to matters awaiting or under adjudication in a civil court from the time that the case has been set down for trial or otherwise brought before the courts, ad for example by notice of motion for an injunction. (

i) such matters may be referred to before such da~e unless it appears to the Chair that there is a real and substantial dan~er of prejudice to the trial of the case, the ban again applies when notice of appeal is given until judgment is given, The ban also applies in the case of any judical body to which the House has expressly referred a specific matter for decision and report from time to time when the resolution of the House is passed but ceases to have effect as soon as the report is laid before the House." There was some debate as to whether this particular matter had been referred by the House or by government.

The conclusion was that it had been referred by government, therefore the ban would not apply to it, Having said that, in effect this means, that the matter is not sub judice. The Chair will however rigidly enforce the rule with regard to relevance and if and when this topic is referred to in the future, as in the view of the Chair this matter is well in hand before one of Her Majesty's supreme court judges, further reference to it must be strictly relevant. Honourable members are asked to deport themselves with a view to the enforcement procedures the Chair has with regard to matters of this type.

I believe we are still dealing with Head Vlll - Social Services. 90'' .. , fw •• I

March 15, 1973 Tape 622 PK - 2 MR . W. N. ROWE: Mr. Chairman,just a brief comment on thia. It ia not strictly relevant, Sir, to the topic under discuaaion, it is relevant to the last day we were discussing this particular aubhead. We saw then the Premier of the Province rise in his place,deliver a blast to this House, to the Cormnittee,and then,without allowing anyone to reply or to make any further comment thereto,exercised his control over the majority of this House to get the committee to rise. That is aomething.

Sa we on this side would like to record our complete and utter opposition to and we decry that kind of a tactic whenever we are debating anything in this House, Mr. Chairman. I just wanted to make that point for the record and I hope it comes to the attention of the Premier who is very s~ldom in his seat. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, regarding your ruling,! have no intention of debating this matter, I am quite prepared to wait until the judge, Judge Mufflin in this case,presents his report.

I would like to point out to Your Honour that the matter is not before the courts, it is being carried out under the Public Inquiries Act and - MR. CHAIRMAN: If the honourable member would permit - MR. NEARY: Yes, I know. I know Your Honour said thnt. MR. CHAIRMAN: That is correct. It is the intention of the Chair to rigidly enforce the rule with regard to relevance in the debate on-Head VIII. The honourable member's comments will have to be brief and to the point. MR. NF.ARY: Very brief, Your Honour, I have no intention of debating this now or in the future until the report is presented.

There is nobody on trial, Mr. Chairman. An investigation is being carried out and certain non-substantiated charges - MR . CHAIRMAN: The honourable member is again warned in effect that he is being irrelevant to Head VIII - ·Social Services, and it has been broup;ht to his attention,hy a ruling of the Chair,that it has not been taken lightly, 20 '• .-, .,, (.;

March 15, 1973 Tape 622 PK - 3 and ~e is accordingly asked to proceed with relevant matters under Read VIII - Social Servicea,and not to speak on the ruling which the Chair has already given. MR. NF.ARY: Well, Sir, if the matter does not come under - I am not questioning Your Honour's ruling but if the matter does not come under Social Services, Mr. Chairman, I would like to know what it does come under? Does it come under justice? I will deal with it under the Justice headin~ of this interim supply bill. It has to come under some heading. MR.

CHAIRMAN: We are discussing inteTim supply and the matter of the inquiry is not a matter which is strictly relevant to this bill on interim supply. There is no interim supply requested for this particular item. MR. NF.ARY: Mr. Chairman, there are lawyers fees included in this interim supply somewhere and when we get to that heading under the Justice Department I will debate it then. But in the meantime, Sir, getting back to Head VIII, I have a few more remarks to make about this sub~ead.

But first of all, Sir, let me just review briefly the impression that I got from the answers that the minister gave me the last day we discussed this item,that no . consideration has been given under the interim supply bill which takes the government up until the end of May, no consideration is being given to increase the food allowance, to increase the clothing allowance, to make children below school age or above school age entitled to the clothing allowance. There is no provision to carry on the extra ten dollar a month fuel allowance beyond the end of April, There is no indication, Mr.

Chairman, and this is the most important of all,there is no indication that the $30.00 a month provic1al old age asRistance is going to he carried on after the end of March, after the end of the present month,when the Government of Canada increases the federal old age penRion. I think this is the most important, I think people who are receiving this allowance across this

March 15, 1973 Tape 622 PX - 4 province, Sir, are entitled to have the answer to this, They want to know whether they are going to get that $30.00 a month after the end of March. Is there any provision in the interim upply bill to provide the $30.00 a month old age pension for the months of April and Mayr If not, Sir, why not?

I do not know if Your Honour is aware of it or not but at the present time one old age pensioner receives $150.00 a month. rtiat is the guaranteed annual supplement and the old age pension comes to a total of $150.00 a month plus $30.00 old age pension for the spouse of the old age pensioner who has not reached the the age to qualify for the old age pension.so that the two combined would get a total of $180,00 a month, a total of $180.00, Now, Sir, if the pr~vince take away that $30,00, the provincial allowance then a couple,were one only qualifies for the old age pension, will have an income of $175.00 or $5.00 less than they are receiving now.

That is why it is important, Mr. Chairman, for these 1,500 or 1,600 old age pensionors across this province to have the answer to this important matter now. Are the Government of Canada going to give an increase of say $25.00 a month to ola age pensioners,and they will be worse off than they are at the present time? They will have a total combined income of $175,00 instead of $180.000 as it is now? I think they are entitled to an answer to this question, Sir, and I do not know why the minister is hedging on it. Why he will not provide the answer? The time is running out, Sir.

They have to have the answer now because this comes into effect the 1st. of April. Why doe~ not the minister give us the answer? Why does he not put the minds of these people at ease and let them know whether they are going to receive the $30.00 provincial allowance or whether it is going to be taken away? Ottawa will r,ive on the one hand and the province take it away on the other, saving money at the expense of the old age in this province. Why does not the minister give us the answer to this? People are waiting for it, they want to know. AN HON. MEMBER: It is not the people, it is just you. 2 0:; (_,

March 15, 1973 Tape 622 PK - 5 MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. only I , The honourable minister told us the otHer day how many,1.soo. or 1,600 families. So I would like to get the minister's c0111111entli on this before we let this item paas. No comment, Mr. Chairman , well 1 will go on to another matter to see 1f I can get the minister to cO!lllllent on this. I was rather disappointed. Mr. Chaittllan·• to hear of the mini .ster 's decision not to allow Barbara Walsh and the Citizen's Rights Committee to put a desk, an information desk,in the welfare office on Harvey Road, the City Welfare Office. Mow, Sir, the honourable minister,whether or Got he is 20 :!l

H~rch 15, 1973, Tape 623, Pn~e 1 -- apb familiar with what the Citizens' Fights Group wanted to do or not. t am not quite sure, but he told us in this House the other day•that he was not going to have outsiders in there listening to confidential information. Mr. Chairman, that is not what Mrs. Walsh and tpe Citzens' Right Group wanted to do. They wanted to install a desk at the City Welfare Office on Harvey Road or be given an office where they could advise clients, advise recipients who visit the office on Harvey Road of what their rights are.

They did not want to be in the office when the welfare officer was interviewing the clients, they just wanted to be there to provide information to clients, to advise them of their rights and the right of appeal. That was somr.thing that I started when I was minister of that department, 1-l'r. Chairman, but I was flung out before I got a chance to finish it. Too often in this province, ~'r. Chairman, the welfare recipients are not aware of their rights. I tries to make them aware of their rights as much as I could, Sir, but it is a big problem, it is a big job.

The civil servants tell us that if the welfare recipients in Newfoundland were aware of their rights, they would bankrupt the government, I say; 'So be it." That is no reason why they should not be advised of their rights, Mr. Chairman, that is no reason. MR. EVANS: (Inaudible) ~- CHAIRMAN: I draw to the attention of honourable members that the honourable member for Bell Island has the right to be heard in silence. MR. NF.ARY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was rather disappointed when I heard the ministC'r thC' other day on the open line proitramme when he would not even give Mrs.

Welsh an opportunity to discuss this matter with him. Sir, in this day and ap,e, when we have a ~ovr.rnment so removed from the people, when wrJfarr recipients cannot r,et throur,h to the minister either hy phone or by personal contnct, there are numerous complaints pouring into our offf.ce every dny, Sir, I get them myself, my colleagues get them, we hear them on the radio, lihere the recipients

March 15, 1973, Tape 623, Page 2 -- apb cannot get in touch with their elected repersentatives. I can name them by the dozens. They cannot get in touch with their elected representatives, Sir. I would say that is all the more reason why ~rs. Walsh and heI Citizens' Rights Group, should have an information desk over on Hnrvey Road to advise recipients of their rights. Why should they not have it? Why the minister, ~r. Chairman, would not even allow the Citizens' Rights Group to put pamphlets in the bookracl< o·,er at City Welfare. Why not?

Is this Communist propaganda they are puttinp, over there or are they just advis1 .ng the poor,little/old welfare recipient of his rights? They asked the honourable minister if they could put pamphlets over at the welfare office on Harvey Road arid the minister said; ''No~ No, I am not going to agree to the Citizens' Rights Committee advising the welfare recipients of their rights, neither am I going to allow them to put a ·desk in there." You talk about arrogance, Mr. Chairman, why should they not have it? Why should not the welfare recipients be advised of their rights?

Is the honourable minister afraid it might cost a few more paltry dollars, that it might use up a part of this $4 million that the Premier tells us that they saved in welfare? We have not heard the minister give a reason why the Citizens' Rights Group are not allowed to put pamphlets and have a desk over there at City Welfare, other than his own stubbornness, Sir, and arrogance and conterept for the opinion of the people of this province. Mr. Chairman, I am going to call now on the Minister of Social Services to reconsider this request.

It is a reasonahle request, Sir, and I would like for the minister to reconsider it and advise this groups that they can have the desk over there at City Welfare and at any other welfare office in Newfoundland. These people worked and earned money at one time and paid taxes in this province, It is not their fault that they have to go for welfare. When they paid their I taxes, Sir, they helped pay for the office over there at Harvey-Road,

March 15, 1973, Tape 623, Pa~e 3 apb and all the other officea around Newfoundlnnd and helped pay the ataff of that department. That department would not be in exiatance today and the minister would not be gettinr, his big, fat salary if it were not for welfare recipients, Sir. I would like •the minister to reconsider and co-operate with the Citizens' Rights Group and allow them to put their desk over at City Welfare to have somebody their exper~enced, trained, mature, raising a family of their own, who knowswhat the regulations of the department are, to help people file their appeals, to help people ••• MR.

A.J .MURPHY: There are forty-five trained welfare officers there. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, that is no excuse. That is no excuse. MR. MURPHY: Oh no! We will put one in education, we will put one in labour, we will put one in every department. MR. NEARY: That is no excuse, Mr. Chairman. Th~t department touches the lives of more people than all the other government departments put to$ether, Sir. ?fR.. '1-mPJ'HY : Get the incense. Get the incense. MR. NEARY: All the others put together. The minister should know better.

The welfare officers are doing the best they can, Sir, They cannot come out and advise people what all their rights are. They do the best they can. If they did advise people what their rights are, they would have the minister down on their backs because it would cost more money and this government is not prepared .•• MR. !-IURPHY: Mr. Chairman, if I may, that is an accusation against me. MR. NEARY: What is the accusation? MR. MVRPHY: That I would force my welfare officers to do things they should not do. t-'R. NF.ARY:_ Oh! sit down, sit down.

If the minister cannot stand the hent, get out of the kitchen. ~ _. _rJ~JR~A_N_:_ One of the honourahel ministers must ait down. ~..:__]IJ.ARY: There is no point of order, no point of privile~e. XR. ?-l!!_RPIIY_:, I rise on a point of order, Mr. Chairman. ?.fR. ~Et_RY: Is it a point of order, Mr. Chairman? 201 11

March 15, 1973, Tape 623, Page 4 -- apb MR. l'URPHY: Lie down "Steve" crawl under the desk where you belong. MR. ~Y: What is the pojnt of order? MR. 'HUR_!'!!!; Mr. Chairman, the honourable member intimated that if my welfare officers did something which was proper, I would force them to do something else. That is the basis of the statement that he just ~ade and I would like that retracted. I do not bully my welfare officers,! will guarantee you that. They went through that once. 1-f&. NEARY: M;.:. Chairman, the welfare officers - no I will not say it.

I could tell the honourable minister what the welfare officers think of him but I will not say it, Sir. And his predecessor, I would like to tell what they think of him too. A'N HON. MEMBER: We already know, they love him. MR. NEARY: But, Sir, I am not going to the mat with the former minister and the present minister, I am going to stick to the facts and debate the issue, Sir. There is nothing personal in this. I do not know why members on the other side of the House are so jumpy. They always take debating in this House as a personal thing. I had a member challenge me outside the House one day, challenge me.

Because we come into this House to debate the issues, they think it iE personal. What is the House for, Mr. Chairman? What js the House for? It is a debating forum and that is what we are here for. Members on the opposite side will be well advised,while collecting their $10,000 a year, to get up,make a few points, make a few speeches and try to do somethinp; for their districts. AN HON. ~BER: (Inaudible) MR. NEARY: Never mind sitting over there like a bunch of crackies. Get up and do something, say somethinp;. Here is an opportunity. MR. YOUNG: Point of order, Sir.

Is the honourable member permitted to refer to members of this House as crackles? ?-!R. NEARY: ?-'R. CH/I IPMJI.N: Now, Mr. Chajrmon, we have heard from the •.• To th~t pofnt of ordrr. It ie certftin]y an unpnrliamrntftry way in which to ref<,r to l•onourablc mcmbr.ro of thin llourie nntl 1t would he 2o r .. . . , J ...

March 15, 1973, Tape 623 1 Page 5 -- apb appreciated if the honourable member for Bell Island would refrain from such nomenclature in the future. ~. NEARY: Thank you, ?-1r. Chairman. The honourahl e "Mr. Digby" from Harbour r.race would not know a point of order if it tared him right in the face. What I am asking here, 1'1r. Chairman, I am asking the minister to reconsider this very reasonable request.

I hope before we pass this item that the minister will g~t up in this House and say: "YES. we are going to help the poor people of this province by granting this reasonable request and allowaing the Citizens' Rights Group and Barbara Walsh to put a desk over at City Welfare, put their pamphlets and booklets and whatever else they want to put over there, to help the poor old welfare recipient know what his rights are and process any appeals or grievances that they might have. MR. CHAIR?'AN: Shall Heading VIII, Social Services carry? MR. NF.ARY: Now, Mr. Chairman, there is arrogance for you.

Is the minister going to answer this? }1R. ~PHY: Oh! sit down like a good boy, will youl Sit downJ MR. NEARY: Sir, I could carry on for another three or four hours on this particular heading alone. There is contempt and arrogance the like of which I have never seen in this House before

March 15. 1973 Tape no. 624 Page 1 - MRW Mr. Neary. It is a reasonable request. Why does not the minister - MR. MURPHY: Beautiful! They could not pick a better man to advocate any cause, to get something done. _MR. NEARY: Hr. Chairman, if tne honourable minister wants to get up and make a speech. I will certainly yield the floor to him. Come on: Will the honourable minister get up and make a speech? MR. MURPHY: Carried. HR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman. what can you do? What can you do? MR. MURPHY: Sit down and shut up. MR.

NEARY: This is the great government that is going to bring - they are going to bring government to the people. They are going to bring government to the people? You cannot even get in to see them. Their doors are locked - closed door policy. You cannot get through on the phone. "You cannot reach the minister: he was told the other morning on the Open Line Programme,on a number of occasions. He had several strips of hide taken off him by recipients who were trying to get through to him. MR. MURPHY: Very careless - MR. NEARY: He would not talk to them on the phone.

He would not allow them in his office - locked out. MR. MURPHY: I cannot call the honourable gentleman what he is. I will just say that - MR. NEARY: We hear now, Mr. Chairman, that he will not allow this group,that are doing such yeoman work in St. John's and on the Avalon Peninsula, to help the poor people of this province - MR. MURPHY: ls that not terrible? MR. NEARY: Here is the minister now. "the champion of the poor." He was going to reduce the price of beer.he told us before the last two elections - the poor man's champagne. Now, Sir, he will not even

March 15, 1973 Tape no. 624 Page 2 allow them to put a desk over at Harvay load vh•r• thay can get in there - HR, MURPHY: They are coming to take me away, Haw! Rav! HR. NEARY: That is very funny, Mr. Chairman. The minister is awfully witty, Sir. MR. MURPHY: He will eventually crack under the great strain. HR. NEARY: The members on the other side are cracking under the strain. They are awfully jumpy these days. They are in a foul mood. We saw the Minister of Finance display his ignorance in this House yesterday and the former Minister of Social Services.

We saw the Premier, with his attack on the "Evening Telegram." MR. CHAIRMAN: Would the honourable member deal with Head VIII, Social Services, He is now digressing into matters which are certainly irrelevant. MR, NEARY: Hr, Chairman, I have tried now aa best I know how to get two answers out of the Minister of Social Services. The minister is just too arrogant,Sir, to answer the questions, I want to repeat the questions because we will hear about these question• in the next few weeks.

(1) Is there any provision in this Interim Supply Bill to carry on the Provincial Old Age Pension allowance of thirty dollars a month after the end of the present month? provincial allowance, Mr. Chairman. There is a thirty dollar _MR. MURPHY: Tell us about the thirty dollars. HR, NEARY: The honourable minister did not hear it because he does not know what is going on down there anyway. HR. MURPHY: There is a forty - MR. NEARY: He has proven that in this House and on radio. MR. EVANS: (Inaudible). HR. NEARY: The honourable minister does not know what he is talking about.

March 15. 1973 Tape no. 624 Page S - MB.W Mr. Neary. The second request for information was for the minister to state the govenunent's reason for not allowing this information desk and the pamphlets to go into the City Welfare Office over at Harvey Road? Ia the minister going to sit there tongue-tied? Ia he going to give the co111111ittee the information? _MR. MURPHY: Carried! On motion Head VIII. Social Services. carried. HEAD VI - EDUCATION AND YOUTII - $21.aoo.ooo. HON. G. R~ OTrENHEIMER (Minister of Education and Youth): Mr.

Chairman, this is obviously an amount for the work under the aegis of the Department of Education.for two months. I would point out that multiplying it by six would not be an accurate way of coming to a total amount which will obviously be available when the estimates of the department are before the House. I do want to point that out.

Basically, I can break down the major categories in approximate figures: teachers' salaries. $10 million to $5 million; public service salaries. (the people within the Department of Education, in the civil service structure and vocational school salaries) $1. 3 million; provision and distribution of achool supplies, $650,000; (a lot of this obviously could well come due in May, ordering of supplies, even in April perhaps,for the next year) operational grants to the schools, $1.8 million; transportation for school children, $1.3 million; ColleRe of Trades and Technology, (this is a grant to them, salaries there and general expenditure there) $700,000; training in manpower programmes, (moat of this will be for students who get provincial allowances or get allowances) $250,000; grants-in-aid to Memorial University, $3.5 million; College of Fisheries, (they work like the College of Trades and Technology and the university through grants-in-aid) $500,000; capital expenditure for erection and equipment of schools, $2.5 million; within the vocational school system for equipment and construction, again within a capital area, $750,000. 2 0 '1 [, ·~ ...

March 15, 1973 Tape no.624 Page 4 There is another capital amount of approximately $500,000, mot of vhich vould be for the thr•• nev vocational chool , Happy Valley, Bai• Verte and St. Anthony, any construction completion but mostly would be for equipment so that they will be able to start with the necessary equipment to give the courses they are supposed to be giving next September. That essentially is the breakdown for the Interim Supply.

I think it is fair to say that there is probably a certain amount of insurance built in because there are certain things that if they cannot be done in April or May that perhaps could retard the whole programme. I think there is a certain amount of insurance there, especially thinking in terms of school supplies and the necessary payments one makes to the D.E.C.'s., so that even if supply were delayed for a period of time, no one expects, at least there would be authorization to continue with these social educational programmes. MR. F. B. ROWE: Mr.

Chairman, I was wondering if the minister could indicate,when he closes this, the amount of money that is going to the George McLean firm for various items in the department? No doubt some of my colleagues will want to ask the same type of question.and probably elaborate on it. When he does close, Sir, I would like for him to state specifically what work is being done by any of the McLean Organizations for the Department of Education and Youth, since this has become a somewhat controversial thing, particularly in light of the statements made by the former Minister of Education?

I would also like for the minister to indicate whether or not the $1.8 million for the two months represents an increase or not over the similar expenditures for the two montha laat year,~ecause this present year the province is experiencing a severe winter, The cost of fuel oil has gone up and the amount of oil being burned by the various schools has increased over the past winter. Last year in fact there were a great number of complaints made by officials of the school board, concerning the amount of fuel that was ·burned during last winter and 2010

March 15, 1973 Tape no . 624 Page 5 the aae thing bu happened this winter. I tbink,for that reason alone, there would probably have to be an increaae in the operational grants to the achool boardi AIJ well, Sir, I might point out that there are a fair number of schools, particularly on the Great Northern Peninsula, and probably some of my other colleaguea can point out ezamplu in their particular distri.cta u well as some other honourable members on the other aide, who h11ve had their water and sewer lines frozen up during the Winter. They have had to dig up the earth and to try and find them 20 .Jj_

March 15, 1973 Tape 625 IB-1 and some of these lines have been damaged and in a number of cases I understand some schools that have hot water heatin~ systems have had the electricity go out in their communities for a period of time and there has been some damage done to the heating systems in the schools. So, Sir, because of the severe winter conditions alone I would suggest that the operational grants should be increased when we compare it with the amount of these grants last year. Sir, the same thing holds true for transportation of school children to the schools.

We have had an increase in the number of students that have to be transported to school this year over last year. If we look b"ack at the grants to the school board for the purpose of school bus transportation, there has not been any significat increase whatsoever of that g~ant,when we comoare last year's grant with this year. Sir, we have had an increase in the number of students that had to be transported. New central schools have been built.

What I am considerably concerned about, Sir, is that we are going to have a situation where the safety and the efficiency and the adequacy of the operation of school buses is going to be decreased because after all the school bus contractors are operating these school buses for the purpose of making a profit. It is a business enterprise and you can hardly expect these school bus contractors to operate at a loss. I am afraid that the safety factor is going to go down and we are going to be faced with a serious accident or situation in the operation of our school buses during this present year.

So, Sir, I would like for the minister to indicate whether or not the grant for the purposes of school_ bus transportation represents an increase for these two months over the corresponding two months last yeR.r. As well, Sir, the capital grants to school boards; The minister suggested that the capital grant would be $2.5 millions, I believe, for the coming two months. Again, Sir, we have a situation here - and I can 201~

March 15, 1973 Tape 625 IB-2 give one example to point out the situation that we have with our achool boards. I think that we have to have a very, very serious look at the whole business of financing education at the secondary and elementary level in our province. I have some information or had some information that indicates - I will not name the particular school board but I will give you an example - last year the capital grant was $356,000. Sir, that same school board has a $1.6 million debt and the approximate cost of servicing that debt is $108,000.

In other words, Sir, what we are seeing here is a situation where approximately one-third of the capital grant to a school board does not go for actual capital expenditure but instead goes to servicing the debt of that particular school board. Sir, I have not yet got the information for some thirty-four or thirty-five other school boards but I am told, Sir, that the situation is similiar if not worse. Approximately one third of the capital grant going to school boards goes not for capital expenditure, the buildinR of schools, the addition of classrooms, gymnasia and things like this,but instead to servicin~ debt.

Sir, I do not know whether a continuation of the school tax authority is the actual answer. Since this is Interim Supply, Mr. Chairman, I am not going to get into any great detail on this because probably the better place for it would be in the actual Educational and Youth estimates when that is brought down. I am beginning to wonder if the continuation of the great number of school tax authorities is the answer here in this province of ours.

I am beginning to think that we have to look at least at a provincial school tax authority or have the p,overnment take over the full responsibility for financing education in this province, full responsibility altor,ether. I think that ask1ng school tax authorities or school boards to take over any percentage whatsoever of the cost of education with respect to collection of revenue is simply passing the buck. I know that the past administration stnrted this business of school tax authorities and I do not mind nrlmitting it, ThP. simple fact of the matter is that we have 202~

March 15, 1973 Tape 625 IB-3 to reconsider this whole concept of having these school tax authorities and havfn~ aRe~s~ments and all this sort of thing, duplications of cost of adm1n1etrnt1on Rnd collection and diehureement of moniea and not only th11t, ~Ir, hut more rl<"T1ouely Wl' hnve,. 11ftu11tion where one achool t11x authority or one echonl hoard re~fon simply hae R better capacity to collect money than other re~tone. The result of this ie ineQuities ae far as educational opportunities in this province are concerned. Sir, I would just like to get back to the original queetfnn however.

Is this caoital grant for the two months cominp, 1 d,es this renresent an increase over the corresponding capital grant for the same period last year. Sir, I have to point out,particularly in view of the recent statements made by the ~inister of Finance,respecting where this twenty four point somethinp, or another million dollars is going,that has come from Ottawa as a result of a change in the furmula for the equalization grants, Sir, I would like just briefly if I may quote from a paragraph from the Federal Bud~et Speech delivered by John Turner.

"The government therefore !)roooses that beg:fnning the next fiscal year the general equalization systems should be substantially broadened to include new grants on account of municipal taxes imposed for local school pun>oses • . At our recent Finance ~inister's conference a widespread consensus in support of this purposal ·was evident among the have and so called have not provinces alike. This is a major advance. It adds a new demension to a revenue equalization system already far superior to that of any other federal country.

One of the main advantages of this will enahle the lower income provinces to come to the relief of hard pressed property owners and tenants who have had to carry an increasing burden of lor.Rl school t nxes." J wi 11 sk1.p a few more l ine11. That is about the mn:ln oofnt of it. Sfr, there is every indication in the comments made by the Minister of Finance for the Federal Administration of CllnRda that the money, this $24.000,000 th;i.t is cominr, to this province is supposed to be used :In the

March 15, 1973 TApe 625 IB-4 area of education. We do not have municipalities in Newfoundland collecting school taxes. We have instead a few school tax authorities and we have some school boards assessing the parents in various regions. Sir, the choice is this; we either have to set up school tax authorities, a multiplicity of them that I just cannot see working i.n this province. We have to have more assessments being levied by the school boatda or we have to make the various local governments responsible for setting up school taxes.

Sir, whichever way we do it, whether it is a Provincial school tax authority or whether the provincial government is wholly and solely responsible for funding or financing education in the province, that does not matter in terms of what this $24,000,000 is supposed to be used for. There is every indication in the Federal Finance Minister's statement in the nudr,et Speech that this money is supposed to go to the area of education. Sir, I would suggest that the operating grants and the capital grants can be increased dramatically to meet the needs of our students in this province,if we make use of the $24,000,000.

Another suggestion that I might make, Sir, and I am r.o1ng to elaborate on this in greater detail at a more appropriate, namely when the_ estimates for the Department of Youth are handed down,in a month or so time. Another sup,gestion that I might make and I am making this very generally now because I do not have all the figures for the other thirty or so school boards but it seems to me, Sir, that a tremendous amount of money can be saved in this province if we take all of or a portion of that $24,000,000 and liquidate completely, if the $24,000,000 can do it. I honestly do not know, ~r. Chairman, probably

Much 15 • 1973 Tape No. 626 RM - 1 th• honourabl~ Mintnt~r of F.ducation -do~• have the figur•• •• far •• th• debt  of th chool board  are concerned. Butt vould ugge t that if this $24 million 1• to bec0111e availabl~ and it ia etrongly suggested that it is supposed to go to the area of education, ·that this $24 million be used to liquidate, wipe out altogether the present debts of the various school boards in this province so that they do not have to use up one-third of their capital grant for the purpose of servicing that debt.

Then they can go ahead and use these capital grants from the provincial government for the original purpose of the grant,and that is to make additions to schools or to build new school•. Sir, we could Ket into long term financing . again that will come at a later date. But, Sir, I would like the minister if he could indicate here whether or not there has been an increase over the corresponding two months last year for capital grants and whether he is making any strong efforts to latch onto that $24 million for purposes of education.

From what I read in the Budget Speech, I am firmly convinced that that is the purpose for which it was intended to be used, namely in the field of education whether you have municipalities, school tax authorities or school boards threatening money from the people for the purpose of education. Sir, I would like for the minister also to indicate how much of that $27.8 million 1n interim supply is going towards the start of construction of the regional college in Corner Brook, and how much, Sir, is going to the start or renovation of a building for a community college in Stephenville.

Sir, more important than that, I think it is time that the Minister of Education or his administration, I am in fully sympathy with the Minister of Education, because I have a feeling he is caught in between somewhere along the line, Sir, the honourable the Premier took a trip to the West Coast several weeks ago.and I have stated this publicly 2 0 'i . .. ...

March 15, 1973 · Tape No. 626 HM - 2 and I will state it here again in the House today, that he did nothing except cave in to political pressure and announced, without articulating any kind of policy or velocity beforehand, the start of construction of a regional college in Corner Brook and a c0111Dunity college in Stephenville. Now, $ir, I am not quite so sure whether regional colleges that are only and wholly and solely an extension of the university is what this province needs. Let me point out I am not against a college in Corner Brook, in case some people try to interpret it that way.

But I think this administration has to give some very serious consideration to throwing up regional colleges which are only an extension of the university throughout this province. Sir, why is this? The reason, Sir, is this - · (1) we do not h11vf! a large population. We have a very disperse population.

(2) T.h~re are a great number of young people in this province today •eriously considering the value of an education through the university. They are seriously considering the value of an education. Too many of our people have gotten their degrees, they have gone out and looked for work,where they changed their minds after, and all throughout North America there is a tendency towards a decrease in the university population. Now we have a slightly different case in Newfoundland.

We have a case where we have had to do a lot of catching up and consequently we are behind to the extent that we have the lowest per capita attendence at our university as compared with other provinceR,80 that there is a certain amount of catching up to be done. But, Sir, I think we are kind of fortunate in that we were a little behind at times in respect of attendance at university in our province, because other provinces are finding a dramatic decrease in university population. The last thing we need to do is to start throwing up all kinds of extensions, branches and arms

March 15, 1973 Tape No. 626 NM - 3 and tenacle• of a university in this province. when wemav find tvo or three years that there are very few etudents who want to attend these particular extensions or regional colleges. Sir, what this province needs,as far as I am concerned, is pure community colleges, set up on the West Cosst,in Labrador, on the South Coast, in Central Newfoundland and probably some other strate~ic locations, c0mmunity colleges, ~ir, that have a university component as well as a broader component of education, a very flexible component that can meet the needs of the surrounding communities.

Sir, I am really extremely concerned, as are many people in this province, over the fact that this administration has not articulated a philosophy nor a policy with respect to the types of institutions that they are planning to build as far as post­ secondary education is concerned in this province and secondly,they have not suggested a flight plan,lf you will, for other areas of the province but instead for just one region of the province.

There is one other point I was going to mention, Sir, the community college that has been defined so far by both the President of the university and the honourable Premier,in a radio broadcast that I heard him on one day, defined a community college. lf he did not mention the word community college.I could have sworn he was talking about a vocational school.

Now, Sir, if a community college is so similar to a vocational school, what is & community college,as defined by the Premier, what is it doing _going up in Stephcnville,going next to a vocational school in Stephenville Crossing?! believe, the honourable Chairman will probably inform us - it is Stephenville Crossinr,, I believe. There is no adult education centre in the same area,l understand. Sir, all indications suggest that there is no philosophy involved here, no policy but simply a submission to,a caving in

March 15, 1973 Tape No. 6 26 1'M - 4 under a little hit, well not a little bit but a fairly strong am~unt of political pre ~ure. Sir, this wu the adainistration who was going to make wi•• decisions. Never, never were we goin2 to hear about politicnl decisions being made by thi administration. AN HON. MEMBER: Priorities and planning. MR. F. ROWE: Priorities and planning,that is right.

I have not heard yet of any suggestions coming from thetas, force on Education respecting this community college business or this regional college business. lt has been battered around, Sir, for a number of years,needless to say, so everybody should have some indication cf what the needs are respecting post secondary education.

Now, Sjr, talking about post secondary education, I think it is important for us to point out, Sir, that one of the reasons we have to take a very serious look at expenditures in post secondary education and use the moat feasible and economic and efficient formulas possible ls that not enough is being done in the area of elementary and secondaryeducation, school education. -We got to watch having "ETV",off campus, on campus, summer courses, off campus summer courses, extension service of the university. I think I mentioned "ETV," our regional adult education centres; vocational schools next to community colleges.

We cannot have this multiplicity of post secondary educational institutions that cost a heck of a lot of money in this province when we need more money to be spent at the secondary and elementary level. So, Sir, I would really appreciate hearing the minister indicating some semblance of policy, particularly in the light of the wild statments made on the West Coast respecting the two institutions which,by the way, I might point out is completely different from what was indicated in the Throne Speech. The Throne Speech indicated that we were going to see regional colleges

March 15, 1973 · TapeNo.626 lfM - 5 that have a.. university component aa well aa a broader spectrum of education. I would not disagree with that.generally speaking. I would like to see the details first, but that is a general concept that is not disagreeable. But then when we hear about two spearate institutions that have been described. this is most unacceptable in terms of cost and what we are going to get out of it.

So, Sir 1 I think all honourable members of the Bouse ·vould appreciate some clarification of what ia going on with respect to post secondary education ~d also how much of this money is in fact going to the regional college in Corner Brook,next month. I would like to ask one other question, Mr. Chairman. Laat year,about one week prior to the by-election in J,abrador South, there was a very little,tiny ·

March 15, 1973 Tape 627 PK - 1 march on the Confederation Building by .a group of concerned mothers who were worried about the cancellation of the mothers allowance. Now, Sir, I have apoken loudly and clearly on the mothers' allowance and I pointed out last year that all aspects of the mother ' allowance were not good. There were people receiving the mothers' allowance who did not need to receive it, even though you had to sign a sheet of paper or something to get it.

But generally speakin~,this mothers' allowance was of considerable assietance,for inetance,to many, many, many mothers in the district that I represent, very poor conmunities, Sir, and they are not just limited to St. Barbe North, They were of considerable importance.

The honourable Minister of Social Services then came out in a statement with the honourable the Premier,following that meeting with the mothers, and the Premier •~id that the mothers' allowance will not be reinstated and"I take full responsibility for it." A great statement, Sir, only to be followed by the honourable Minister of,whatever the department was called then, Social Services or its equivalent,and the honourable Minister of Social Services indicated that he is working on a great new formula that would benefit the needy mothers of this province to a much greater extent than the mothers' allowance did.

Now, Sir, we have not heard a word since. So, Sir, we are now asking the honourable Minister of Education and Youth to indicate to this honourable Rouse whether his department is planning anything to substitute,for the needy mothers of this province, for the original parent subsidy. Not all mothers in this province, Sir, I do not believe all mothers in this province should get it.

But for the needy mothers of this province, for instance, three fishermen families up in Castors River North,in December the three huabond11 were lost in a fishing accident off the co,utt, one family ha• ten kids, t.h• other family has ten kids and the other family has nine kids, seventy-five per cent 20s..:.

March 15, 1973 Tape 627 PK - 2 of them going to school. Sir, you cannot tell me~and these are poor families, that the mothers' allowance would not help these three families, and these are not the only three families in this province who need such assistance. Sir,that is the parent subsidy or I should probably have brought the point up when we were dealing with the social' services on interim suDnlv Sir, I think that is about all I have to ask the minister at the present time, school hus transportation, did I ~ention? Can I be reminded whether or not T mentioned school bus transportation. AN HON.

MF.l'-fIIF.R· Go ahead. MR. ROWE, F.B. I did not mention that. Well, Sir, I understand from speaking with a number of school board officials - yes I did, I mentioned that. Yes, Mr. Chairman, that is all for the time being. Thank you. MR. NEARY: Mr. Chairman, before the minister replies to my honourable colleague perhaps I will save him the trouble of j1J111ping up and down, and he may want to get up once and give the answers.

On the matter of school bus transportation, Sir there seems to be a great difficulty on the part of parents in communicating their grievances to the authorities,that they have about school buses. I have an example here. Sir, I tabled this letter about one week ago, For instnnce,over in the District of Port de Grave,in Juniper Stump,the parents over there have had great difficulty with the school bus operation in that area. They have tried, Sir, unsuccessfully,to get their grievances resolved. I am not going to read the whole letter, I tabled it, Mr.

Chairman, and anybody who wants to read it can read it,but I just want to read a coupil.e of parar,raphs from this letter just to show you the difficulty that the parents in Juniper Stump are having. They are referring here to the children. "They were often left,while running the three or four hundred feet to the bus after it stopped, Sometimes the bus door was closed in their faces. Parents who called tl1e bus owner had to he prepared to take abuse nnd severe criticism for daring to call and ask for an explanation. Another 2o r .- , 'II: ~ ...

·- March 15, 1973 Tape 627 PK - 3 high school pupil would have missed the scholarship examination several years ago if his parent had not picked him up on the way to work and taken him the eight miles to the Ascension Collegiate in Bay Roberta, because he was left when only a few feet away from the bus. It is realized that the bus has a

schedule which must be adhered to but such incidents are in­ excusable. In the meantime," the letter goes on,'' buses of the larger type seem to have no difficulty at all in getting into and through this area anytime of the year for passengers,for a political rally or for personal reasons." They are referring to the conditions of the road there, Mr. Chairman. I am not going to read the whole letter. But what I want the minister to tell the committee is - MR. MURPHY: Is this letter going to be tabled, Mr. Chairman? MR. NEARY: The letter was tabled already. When I make a statement in this House, Mr.

Chairman, I can back it up, I am not like the honourable minister. So I would like for the minister to tell us what recourse, Mr. Chairman, do parents have to process their grievances? I know that the school bus contracts are the responsibility of the school boards, but the Department of Education give the school boards the money to operate the school buses and surely they must have some say in the operation of this eervice,within the regulations. I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman, that if there are no regulations or no procedure to give the parents a process under which they can put in a grievance, it is about time we did something about it. This is only one area, I know of numerous other parts of Newfoundland, Sir, where parents are having difficulty with the school bus service. Well here is one example here.the letter has been tabled and I would like to know from the minister what is going to be done about it. While the minister is on his feet,would he a1so inform the committee lf°l'fr. Thomas Freeman 1a still a part-time executive assistant to the Minister of Education.

In the "Evening Telegram" November, 21, 1972, when an announcement was made that Mr, Thomas Freeman was appointed ChaiTI11an of the Pippy Park ~ommission, it was stated by the then minister that he was also a part-time executive assistant ,·, to Education Minister John Carter. The position is without salary. I understand 20S~

March 15, 1973 Tape 627 · PK - 4 th,it Mr. Jl'r@@1111m w,u a -doll11r-11 .. yet1r m11n." Wt1ll, S:fr, Mr. f're11m11n w1111 1 u1 tha honnurnhlo 11011,ie lr.nowa,or is the head ot quite a larRe business firm here in Newfoundland that does business with the government. If Mr. Freeman is still a part-time executive assistant to the Minister of Education,would that not, Mr. Chairman, give him the inside track, would there not be a possible conflict of interest here? Would not Mr. Freeman have the inside track on bidding on government contracts? And would not there be a little bit of favouritism? AN HON.

MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NF.ARY: Oh, the honourable Minister of Finance is back in his seat. Back in his seat! Cannot take it! What about DOMAC, Mr. Chairman, they got the rip-off,the Linerboard Mill. We will deal with that when we come to it - atl about DOMAC. MR. CHAIRMAN: Order, please! MR. NEARY: All right, Mr. Chairman, but I would like for the honourable minister to tell us whether Mr. Freeman is still a part-time executive assistant to the Minister of Education or not. If he is, what precautions, what safety measures are being taken to see that there is no conflict of interest, that Mr.

Freeman does not get the inside track on bidding on hospital equipment and supplies for the Health Science Complex here at the university and the hospital in Carbonear? AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. NEARY: I will say it in the House. What did the great Leader of the Tory Party of Cannda say about house immunity today? Ah, well, I am gettin~ the transcript and I will shove that down the throat of the honourable Minister of Finance next week. So these are the only questions that I have to ask the honourable minister, Mr. Chairman. MR. G, M.

WILSON: Seeing the honourable member for Bell Island had to read that letter, that is nothing knew, Mr. Chairman, to the honourable member for Port de Grave. It is nothing knew for it to come from one person. This letter was circulated, there were suppose to be 179 names on demand. When

March 15, 1973 Tape 627 PK - 5 l had got the letter, I am the only one that has a letter in my possession that is eigned by the party concerned, all the rest ·were aeut it,and it wae not signed. AN IlON. MEMBER: Inaudible. MR. WILSON: The signatures might not be put on that one. They sent us back the old letter which came out in the election racket. They were never signed. I was the only that came here and got the handwriting and got the letter signed. Well let me tell the honourable memher for Bell Island that the honourable member for Port de Grave is the owner of the company that has the buses. MR.

NF.ARY: I did not say that, Mr. Chairman. MR. WIT.SON: I am saying it. I am telling you. I am the owner. Sometimes the driver,when other drivers cannot maintain order,the honourable member is satisfied to

March 15, 1973 Tape 628 tak@ lt over and maintain the ord~r ApparP.ntly, Hr. Spe11ker, the h,m. m•mbqr for Rl'!ll T l.11nd contlnu11lly on the floor ot thh hon. llouan wnnt• to brinp; 11om11 hon. member into it. He muat get delight out of bringing them in. Well, I am going to tell the hon. member JM - 1 for Bell Island, they told me already to watch my blood pressure, At this particular time I am not going to worry too much about my blood pressure or his either, but when I took a bus contract in 1964 I had signed a contract and every year I have signed a contract since.

I ran the bus service to suit the schools that I have taken the pupils to and the officials, not for the hon. member for Bell Island. I have no worry about the bus service coming on the floor of this hon. House or even the man who is running the bus service, Hr. Speaker, because at times when my busses even cannot reach the homes in bad weather my car takes them there.

If someone in the community of Port de Grave District have an alibi against the hon. member for Port de Grave,well surely it is not hurting the hon. member very much because at the particular time when I came in here from Port de Grave I happened to be 168 pounds and today I am 206 which goes to show - I understand the hon. member for Bell Island, He wants to get something off his chest to raise up a flair and what not, probably to agitate the hon. member for Port de Grave.

I saw times in different places that if the hon. member agitated me so much ns he agitated me here,that probably he would find something a little different. He would probably be topsy-turvey. AN HON. MEHRER: And need a denturist. MR. WII.SON: But when you enter public life, Mr. Speaker, you have to take all of this abuse and trying to show the people on the outside that the hon. ~ember for Port de Grave is so and so. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible). MR. EVANS: Go rome and be quiet, ding-a-ling. MR. WILSON: A letter originated from some of the political abuse that 2 0 r,;. ,; '-

March 15, 1973 Tape 628 the Liberal party before - MR. NEARY: No, not true, Mr. Chairman. MR. WILSON: And it is a possibility from the hon. member who was defeated in Port de Grave District and probably from the hon. leader who was in the community at the same time when the letter was probably drafted. MR. NEARY: N~, do not be ridiculous. MR. WILSON: I am not ridiculous and when the gentleman who wrote the letter was confronted with it to sign the letter,he knew nothing at all about it.

He was going to get the names in a few days and I went around and went to the houses with him and he could not get one person to sign that petition against the hon. member for Port de Grave. Now then if the hon. member for Bell Island wants to know the reason why that the bus never went down there,the hon. member for Port de Grave knows when it is feasible and safe to get a bus into a position. I had a seventy-two pupil bus, no road to get there and twenty-three years with a government that never put any road to a place to get a school bus down.

JM - 2 Now this is what happened; Last fall in November there was $20,000 spent there and you are still not able to get into Juniper Stump but I can tell the hon. member that he will not be able to talk about a road next year to go into Juniper Stump because the hon. member for Port de Grave is going to have that road done. AN HON. MEMBER: Good. He is going to do it himself. MR.

WILSON: And neither did the hon. member for Port de Grave take a school bus service to go and stop to the door and wait for the parents to comb their children's hair for them to get aboard the bus to ~o, That is another thing the hon. member does not do. One hundred and forty pupils have to go to school and if you wait for 11omti of the11e proplc to comh the hnir of these children to P.'-'t them to their 11chool111,aomcone 1 going to have to miss. You just heard about collegcB and community colleges and what :, ' . n Or .·· 1w .....

March 15, 1973 Tape 628 not.I am afrAid thnt wr. will not want anythinR at nll if that i• what ia goinr, to happen becauae aome or tho bu•••• wJll be setting to JM - 3 chool when the other crowd are cominf. back. So if the hon. member wants to get at the hon. member for Port de Grave,I tell the hon. member for Bell Island he can just watch his blood pressure too because I have no argument but just the facts.

The people who sent the hon. member for Port de Grave in this House of Assembly,they know it and if the hon. member does not do his job,when the four years are up they know what to do with him, But I am going to tell the hon, member after the four years are up and the hon. member for Port de Grave wants to come back in this Housc,he will not want any help from the hon. member for Bell Island to come back here. He will be back with colours. MR. ROWE(W.N.): Mr.

Chairman, I just heard something from the hon. member for Port de Grave that I did not think I would live long enough to hear, the shocking accusation that perhaps the member for Bell Island was trying to agitate him. Mr. Chairman, I would have gotten up on a point of privilege at the time but I was too shocked, Sir, to hear that kind of an accusation come from an hon, member from the other side of the House, the hon. member for Bell Island trying to agitate another member of this House, Mr. Chairman. Unheard of! The hon. member should rise in his place now and retract that statement, Mr.

Chairman, and the hon. member for Bell Island ·was never known to deviate from issues and current problems facing the people of the Province of Newfoundland. It is only because the member for Port de Grave is relatively new in the House, he has only been here for a couple of years, that we tolerate that kind of a gross accusation against one of my colleagues on this side. Next session, Sir, we will not tolerate it. We will not tolerate an accusation that - MR. CHAIRMAN: The hon. member should direct himself to the Chair. MR.ROW!!_(!!_.~ Yes but I am a little bit overwrou~ht by that type of

March 15, 1973 · Tape 628 accusation, Mr. Chairman, and when you have high feeling and emotions in a situation like that,you tend to get a little sidetracked from the point at issue. But I would like to defend my hon, colleague, the member for Bell Isla~d,because he is so reticent and silent himself on these issues and so incapable of rising in his place and defending himself. However, Sir, be that as it may, there is one question only that I would like to direct to the Minister of Education and that concerns what we are getting quite used to in this House, the hon.

Premier rising in\his place and lashing out some spontaneous,ill­ considered,ill-thought out statement in response to either pressure in the House or outside the House, I do not know what.but he gets up and he comes out with a statement which he regrets and lives to JM - 4 regret thereafter. I am referring to a statement which he made during the last session of the House, a committment he made to set up a committee to investigate the denominational education system in this province. No sooner had the hon.

Premier made this statement, in a flash,without any prior warning or without any forethought of any kind given to it, no sooner had he made the statement,then we heard nothing else from him on the subject thereafter. We have asked the hon. Minister of Education on one or two occasions,on Orders of the Day,to give us some kind of an idea as to how this committee,if it is set up,is progressing or what stage has been reached in any negotiations.But the minister has said that we will have lots of opportunity to talk .about it on supply. Now this is the first opportunity we have had.

Ordinarily I would not raise it, Sir, until the main estimates come before the House,but I think it is a question ' of great concern to everyone. What is this government's position on thnt question which was referred to by the hon, Premier,the last sittinR of this House? What progress is being made by the committee? I understand that the Premier did make some oblique reference thereafter to the fact that this co11U11ittee was going to enquire into all aspects of education, 2o r.; .-, ., ..

March 15, 1973 Tape no. 629 Page 1 - MRW not only the denominatlonnl system. Thereafter, I think the then Mfni  tor or Education, th• mc,ml111r tor St . .John'• North, who w•• unceremoniou ly and ignominiously to8aed out of the cabinet ever l month• ago, prior to being thrown out mentioned that perhaps this type of thing had been taken over by the task force on education, part of the restructuring scheme of this government.

W-nat I would like to know, Sir, no matter what committee or what task force or whatever group of people are in charge of these negotiations or these studies, what progress has been made to date, either by conference with the :q.E,C. 's and the relevant churches or are the 2ove~nment actin~ on their own in a vacuum, so to speak? What is the present policy? What is the present position of this government and what progress have they made, Sir, in either negotiating or coming to some conclusions with regard to the denominational educational system? MR. OTTENHEIMER: Mr.

Chairman, I will endeavour to deal with all the matters brought up,in I hope sufficient detail. First with respect to Mr. Tom Freeman - Mr. Freeman was an executive assistant of the hon, member for St. John's North, when he was Minister of Education. Every minister has a right to an executive assistant. The usual, traditional and obvious thing which happens is that if a person is no longer a minister, obviously he no longer has an executive assistant and that person resigns. AB a matter of fact a day or two days after my appointment as Minister of Education, Mr. Freeman called me.

I suggested that he drop into the office. We chatted. He was perfectly aware of the tradition and custom and the convention and he gave me his letter of resignation. That point I wish to make clear and unequivocal. Mr. Freeman has not acted as executive assistant to any minister since the resignation from the cabinet of the hon. member for St, John's North. It has been pointed out as well but I wish to state it again that during the number of months when Mr. Freeman did act in that capacity, he did so without remuneration. c; 0 r•; ,., J ·~·

March 15, 1973 Tape no. 629 Page 2 With reference to the co111111ents of the hon. member for White Bay South, the Department of Education neither alone nor with anybody else is investigating denominational education nor indeed investigating anything,in the usual meaning of the word investigate. It does not basically have investigative functions unless perhaps in school attendance areas,where itiere might be. There is no investigation into denominational education going on. In the usual term in which that word investigation is used, there are no investigations.

The Department of Education is in close touch, dialogue, exchange of ideas, frequently debate,difference of opinion as well, with I suppose every group concerned with education and that obviously includes denominational representatives. In fact there is a denominational policy commission made up of D,E.C.'s, Minister and Deputy Minister of Education who meet on a fairly regular basis to discuss matters of mutual concern and interest. This is a continuing process.Since my appointment to this portfolio, there have been three meetings. (If fll'1 me1110ey is ·correct, I am quite sure it is that).

There is, of course, the general advisory council which is made up as well of representatives from the D.E.C.'s, the university, from the N.T.A, and from various divisions within the Department of Education. This meets on quite a regular basis, sometimes every four or five weeks, I think that that is the average there.

There has been established as well a task force co11111ittee with a very broad term of reference and that essentially is to make recommendations with respect to the best use of our resources, human, financial, structural and physical, in education and human resource development, That term is specifically used because by no means did we wish to concentrate exclusively on the academic or on the regular day-school system but to encompass the whole area of education in training and providing opportunities for the human resource of the province. 20G~

March 15, 1973 Tape no. 629 Page 3 Th••e are e1111entially a number of th• committee11 and group  that we arc worl'.lng with, The taak force aub-committee on human resource development is chaired by Dr. Leslie Harris. I think he would be known, if not personally, certainly by reputation to all members of the House. I do not have a list of the complete membership here but people who are represented on it would be: the President of the College of Fisheries, the President of the College of Trades and Technology, Mr. Gill Pike,and there are a couple of people who are not tea~hers, citizens and parents.

I think it is essential to have an input from them as well, not only from teachers, professional educators, people who are concerned professionally in this area but also parents and citizens. I hope that that clarifies that point. With respect to regional colleges: In the Speech frOIII the Throne it was stated to the effect that this government wish to make access to post-secondary courses available in areas outside of :St. John's. They wish to establish a policy whereby it would not be necessary for all to come to St. John's.

It was stated there that the first such institution would be on the West Coast, This general statement was made more specific, more precise and exact by the Premier some weeks ago,when he was in Corner Brook, when he announced that the regional 'college would be in Corner Brook. Hr. Chairman, I would like to point out that the decision to put the regional college in Corner Brook cannot properly be called a political decision at least in the sense of partisan politics.

The university itself which obviously is not the only entity concerned in the location of these because they are an important area of opinion, but their studies and rec0111D1endations were that Corner Brook be the locality for the reg1onal college. Certain studies the Department of Education itself had done indicated the same,and there was a group ( I do not know if they are still in existence or not) called the "West Coast Advisory Committee On Poet-Secondary Education" or something to that effect,

March 15, 1973 Tape no. 629 Page 4 Which had representatives from Stephenville, the Port au Port Area, frOIQ Comer Brook, from Deer Lake, pretty representative of the West Coast. ! It was in fact their recommendation made to government some time ago. Certainly it is conistent with the advice that govenunent have had from professional and knowledgeable and concerned people. It is consonant wi·th the government's asaessment of these reports and our own studies in that area. One, of course, can get into a lot of semantics on regional colleges and COllilllunity colleges and various terms. I think or at least it should be fairly clear what the first such

~•rch 15, 1973, Tape 630, PR~e 1 -- apb 1nut1tutfon, a re~ional collt-p,e will in fact have a mandate to do. It will he offerJnp, firJ11t 1rnrl necnn<I year university, it 1My well offf'T 11. 1'1nd of ns1Jociatc drr,r«"t- at the completion of two years,if there is a need for that. The two years could be regarded as terminal or could be regarded as feeding in.

It has been stated on a number of occasions that such a college and indeed every educational institution for people outside of the days school scene should provide for a broad spectrum of educational needs but not educational only in the sense of credits or degrees, of grades or of this preoccupation.with diplomas and certificates, but educational in a much broader sense as well. A broad spectrum of educational needs and also of social needs in the whole area of extension, creative use of free time, studies related to the economy of the area in which people live.

I do not think it is possible, I certainly do not think it is desirable to establish a blueprint and say; "From now on every college is going to have that." Because, if it is there to serve the needs of the area and that is the only reason or the chief reason that it is there, then obviously it has to respond to them. AN HON. !q.:~ER: (First

part inaudible) still talking about the thing in Corner Brook? HR . OTTENHEIMF.R: Rir,ht, but even the one in Corner Brook must, you know, a rep,ional collep,e in Corner Brook, any improvement in educational fad.lities in Corner Brook must not cater exclusively to first or second year university students. It must also be a centre whereby a broad background of educational and social needs can be met. PersonRlly I think the term (I know people use thr terms and they have a hfstory) but personally I do not think the terms are very beneficial or fruitful if you talk about rcrional or community or th:f.s or that.

The words take them out of their context, with college after them. A region or a commun:f.ty - .. bat :fs regional is communitv 1 what is community is regional. I think you need to take a much 2 0 G 1.:

March 15, 1973, Tape 630, Page 3 -- apb t should say in connection with this too, it is related but it is related to many other areas of education in Newfoundland and that is, that we have to,nn a people, aa chool boardR, ell institutions o( learning and training, we have to accept it, we have to make maximum use of the physical structures and facilities · that we have. we cannot keep on duplicatin~ all of the time. These facilities which have cost millions and millions of the taxpayers money have to be used to the maximum.

There may be some consequential inconveniences for somebody sometime.That is obvious and inevitable but the only way that we will be able to provide for the changing and growing needs in the education of the people of this province, in children, adolescents and adults, the only way we can ever hope to do it is by making maximum use of the facilities we have. There are areas in the province where this is being done. There are two,and I will get into this further, probably when the estimates come up.

I just want to make that as a point., This is obviously 'ts true for any institutions which would serve the educational and social needs of an area or a region, a community or anywhere in the province. This has to be part of the philosophy. The honourable gentleman asked me whether there was a vote here for capital construction for any community or regional college. No, there is not. It is my understnadinp, that starting next September,first­ year university will be offered by using facilities in Corner Brook.

I presume the university have been or will be or are in contact with the school boards there to make arrangements for the use of those facilities. There is no vote here for capital construction in connection with either Corner Brook or Stephenville or any centre for community and regional education. I should say as well that these capital school grants,as indiciited in the Interim Supply Bill,should not be :fnt~rpretcd as an :fncrrnRe nor indeed as a decrcnRe over l~st year's amount. It is a fnfrly hefty sum because these thin~s ar4" p:\J<I quartrrly and it :Is to 20'Jt:

March 15, 1973, Tape 630, Page 4 -- apb provide,in an unlikely occasion that the bud~et would not be passed even in two months time or whenever it happens to be, that there would be authority to pay out these amounts because they go quarterly. I am not sure if they always go divided by four or not. There may be greater demands in one period than another.

I do think that the rrovinces, the school boards, our collective problems with·respect to the financing of education, that an important area there is going to be a provision of long-term financin~ for school construction. ~any, if not all of the school boards in the province,are in difficult financial situations as,of course,is the province. We are far from the wealthiest province, we have a large debt, we have large borrowinr,s to undertake and this is the situation of the province. It is the situation of many institutions which are in the province,includinr, the school boards.

I do think that a system allowing for lonr,-tem financing of capital construction, say over a twenty year period,will be a big help. It is not going to solve all the problems but I think it will be a bip, help. With respect to operational grants and school bus transportation, I would not wish to now either suggest that one should interpret the Interim Supply as either an increase or a decrease. Some work is going on _and some suggestions for changing the regulations for school buses in the school bus transportation area. These are not finalized but when they are worked out and agreed upon,! am ouite sure they

March 15, 1973 Tape NO. 631 NM - 2 facilities, these things have to develop in a co-ordinated manner, and certainly all of the financial resources that we have ar_e .• made available on as intelligent and sensitive a basis as this government figures, in education and in other areas as well. If honourable gentlemen were to say;"Well. all that $24 million should go into education," one could easily come back and say; "But it has because the interim supply is $26." It does not really work out that way. I think I have covered matters - AN HON. MEMBER: Inaudible MR.

OTTENHEIMER: Well, I did not want the honourable gentleman to get up and say; "But you did not say anything about this, the honourable gentleman will not give any informstion, he will not do this and he will not do that." MR. ROBERTS: Inaudible. MR. OTTENHEIMER: I am certainly glad you did. Actually at the time I am sorry I was out but I asked the Minister of Finance if interim supply was coming. He said, "no," I said, "Fine. because there is something quite pressing down in the office," and then I heard.when I came up there was a sort of• hassle over a point of order. MR.ROBERTS: !~audible. MR.

OTTENHEIMER: No, no. Well, Mr. Chairman, I think I have covered the major points. Let me just say one thing, just in closing here and that is the federal government - an aid to education. This is an area, a province like Newfoundland and probably other ones as well, the constitutional semantics of education as a provincial jurisdiction. it is certainly a provincial jurisdiction,if you want to call it that, but it certainly should not be regarded as exclusively a provincial responsiblity. Now obviously federal funds are involved in post secondary and through 203~ 1

March 15, 1973 Tape No. 631 NM - 3 DREE and through Manpower training programme, there is no doubt about that. We are very glad to have them and we need them and need a lot more. But I do believe that the federal government is slopping off a responsibility with a facade of constitutionalism when it refuses to get involved more directly in the financing of education, especially in the less wealthy provinces. MR. WINSOR: Before we pass this vote, would the honourable minister care to comment on the integrated schools?

I am thinking in particular of the one in operation on Fogo Island, l• this the direction now in which the government would propose going? Has it been accepted by each denomination and how is it working out? This school is comparatively new. It opened I think at the beginning of the school year and I would like to know - because I have heard rumblings that it is not all that it was expected to be, maybe it is just rumbling, I hope so_ hut is this the direction now in which the governmentw,uld like to follow? MR. OTTENHEIMf.R: Hr.

Chairman, as I recall,the honourable member for Fogo was there at the school opening and the Premier was and I was and the then Minister of Education was. I was not aware that there were difficulties. It is, as the honourable gentleman says, a totally integrated school, every denomination there. It worked out plan, programme, representation on the school board, and it is therefore everybody in the area. I was not aware that there had been any difficulties.

If there are, I hope they are minor and I hope that the wisdom and real good sense and hard work and no doubt perseverance of those who planned it and worked it out, will continue to solve any difficulties. I would think that that will happen. Certainly it appears that thi.s cc;i-operative effort to put facilities there for the benefit of everybody, throuP,h the co-operation of all segments 20"/i_,

March 15, 1973 Tape No, 631 NM - 4 of the community, it certainly appears that this is the extremely sensible, it seems to be the best optim11111 use of the resources we have, the money we have and the buildings we have. Naturally I most of tr, ; se things - and this came to Fogo voluntarily. i ' AN HON. M§mBER: Inaudible. I , MR. OTTENHf,IMER: At Fogo it would be cheaper to operate that school than let us say two or three schools, roughly one third the size, There can be no doubt.

Now I think you can get to a certain size where whatever economies you make up you might well lose in the quality of instruction and the lack of very much personal raooort. It is certainly not the case in Fogo. I am aware too that in other parts of the province people are thinking the same way, and of course Fogo was not first. There were schools when·all segments of the community went; it has existed for some years.

I am aware too that in other areas of the province conversations are going along with this in mind and I do believe that there will be an increase in this co-operative approach to providing school facilities. But to be really meaningful, obviously it should be voluntary. That is what it has been and I think that is Teally the only way these things can properly work, when people want to co-operate and work together. I am aware that discussions are going on in other parts of the province to co-operatively plan and develop educational facilities as well for all segments and all groups in the community.

I think that is a very helpful sign. MR. F. ROWE: Mr. Chairman, I do not wish to delay the progress of the committee on this. However, there are a couple of very ser:fous things that we still have not been completely straightened out and Sir, one is this whole matter of community and regional colleges. 2 07 ~-

March 15, 1973 Tape No. 631 NM - 5 Sir, even if the announcements made by the Premier on the West Coast a few week.a ago was not politically inoti•ated, this does not necessarily mean that the decision to build a regional college and a comm\Jllity ~llege is a wise !iecision.

March 15, 1973 Tape 632 Sir, the fact of the matter is that in one region of the province, one region,and we have the South Coast Region, the Central Region and the Labrador Region and probably some other regions of this province will now as a result of this announcement expect a regional college which as described by the Premier is only an extension of the university, as described by the president of the university is an extension of the university but as described by the hon. Minist~r of Education tends to be a little broader in scope.

Now, okay we will deal with the broadening in scope in a few minutes but we do have an extension of the university on the one hand in one region and in that same region we have a community college alongside of a vocational school. JM - 1 Sir,what I am concerned about is that every other region of this province is going to expect the same kind of treatment in the future.

The South Coast will want their community college as well as their vocational school as well as their extension of their university, and I submit that this is going to result in duplication of post secondary education with resulting increased expenditure for what the people of this province are getting out of it. We are starting something that is going to mushroom on us, snowball on us and it is going to be a terrific burden and expense to this province when we still do not have enough money in this province to take care of the elementary and secondary school education in this province.

Sir, I think this has to be straightened out because the ~inister of Education a few minutes ago started to broaden the definition of the regional college in Corner Brook to the extent that by the time the definition of the community college in Stephenville is altered to keep it away from looking like a vocational school,that the two of them will end up looking very much like the same institution or there will certainly be resulting duplication in these institutions.

On top of that every other region in the province is goinr, to want it and we simply cannot afford it, Sir, Neither did 1 hear from the hon. minister, Sir, unless I missed 20,J

H..rch 15, 1973 Tape 632 JM - 2 It complotrly, 11 ntatement of policy or philo•ophy or motives regarding po•t •econdary education in this province. We cannot talk about community colleges nor regional colleges nor vocational schools, we have to have a statement of policy into which we can fit these various types of institutions. Now, Sir, the minister informed the committee that the announcement made by the Premier on the West Coast was made as a result of various reports having come from various educational sectors of this province.

Sir, I would ask the hon. minister if he would table the various departmental reports and the various reports that have been submitted by various educational sectors of this province. Table these reports, Sir, because I have a report here called The Conference Developing Further Education for Newfoundland and Labrador,held in Gander,January 14, 15 and 16, 1971,sponsored by the Department of Education and Administration, Memorial University of Newfoundland and reported by the extension service of Memorial University.

Now, Sir, the Department of Administration cannot empire · build as a result of regional colleges or anything else in this province. Sir, this conference brought in many, many people from all sectors of education in this province and there are fo~r or five pages of the people who participated and headed up the various committees at that conference. Sir, the very first recotmnendation of this very important conference is that it is strongly recommended that colleges established outside of St. John's be regional community colleges.

"The concept,"Sir, and I repeat this,"the concept of junior colleges is far too narrow to meet our needs. These regional colleges must be flexible enough to meet the chanr,inp, needs of the region. These needs should be determined in counsultation with the local citizens. It is recommended that the conference emphasis the urgency of establishing community colleges in the province." Sir, the other great number of recommendations there are consistent with that first recommendation and that is that there have to be regional or basically community colleges or what we are talking about,

March 15, 1973 Tape 632 AN HON. MEMBER: (Inaudible). MR. ROWE(F.B.): The words, Sir, are very important. The hon. minister suggested that we should not get involved in arglDllents over semantics or trying to get precise

definitions or anything else. Sir, I submit that we should get very seriously involved with the

definitions of the post secondary institutions that we are setting up in this province because now, Sir, we are going to have, as I understand it, a regional college in Corner Brook, a community college in Stephenville and there is already a vocational college in Stephenville and there is already an adult education centre in Stephenville and there is in fact a number of other institutions such as off-campus courses through "ETV" and su11D11er courses being held in these centres from the university.

Sir, if we do not establish what exactly it is we have planned for the various regions of this province,we are going to end up with very expensive post secondary educational institutions in various regions of this province which are going to be duplicating each others work.

I am sincere in making that suggestion and I know that there are very many people, educators in this province who are extremely concerned about the same thing happening, I will submit, JM - 3 Sir, that we should start off with a pure and simple community college that has a university component as well as some of those broader components particularily if we have other institutions such as vocational schools and adult education centres in some of these regions.

Sir, I am not satisfied at all with the explanation provided by the minister.simply because it seems to be a little bit of a retreat from the definition as given by the president of the university and also by the Premier and the

definitions that I heard on certain local radio stations. The Premier in f~ct said first,two years of university and that is it,whereas the institution in Stephenville will be more along the vocational, general, broader social aspects of education,

March 15, 1973 Tape 6'32 Sir, one quick comm.,nt,tr I may,on this whole business of chool tAxfng. Sir, I have to dhagrce strongly with the hon. the Minister of Education when he suggests that this is not the time to deal with school tax authorities or changing legislation with respect JM - 4 to school tax authorities. If I misinterpreted the minister~I apologize for it.

Sir, if we let this thing monster, multiply over the next three years,we are going to have entrenched and established in this province a multiplicity of school tax authorities that we simply will not be able to wipe out and there will be this duplication that I am mentioned before and more important, Sir, nobody can tell me that the capacity to collect school taxes by the St. John's School Tax Authority is similar to the school tax authority that could be established on the Northwest Coast of this province, the Northern Peninsula.

Sir, there is no comparison and thi,s will result in gross inequities and inequalities in educational opportunities in this province over the next three years. Further to that,if these school tax authorities get entrenched, Sir, I submit that it would be very difficult to stream­ line them into a provincial school tax authority. Sir, I agree with the government really not, and you can say the past administration might have started the same thing but that is not the argument.

Do not pass the buck for financing education in this province to the communities, to municipalities or to local school tax authorities or to the school boards whether the money is coming from the federal government the fact of the matter is it is cycle, it has to come somewhere along the line to the provincial govenunent. This provincial government should take its full responsibility for financing education in this province particularily if the. 20"/ L

March 15, 1973 Tape no. 633 Pagel - MRW provincial government as stated by the minister, feels that the federal government should take a greater responsibility.

If the federal government should take a greater amount of responsibility for financing education in this province, surely it is up to the provincial government to break the responsibility of negotiating with the federal government for such purposes, Consequently, what the minister has really admitted or said in other words is that the provincial government should be taking responsibility for financing education in this province, particularly if it has to look to the federal government, Sir, if these school tax authorities are allowed to multiply, become entrenched with their duplication and resulting inequalities in educational opportunity, two or three years is much too late to try and straighten the situation out, once entrenched, Last, Sir, with respect to that $24 million: The only thing I can say to the hon.

Minister of Education and to the hon. Minister of Finance is that it was obviously the intention of the federal