ISSN 0542-5492 Second Session - Thirty-Second Legislature of ..... Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 31-32 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable D. James Walding Speaker VOL. XXXI No. 28A - 2:00 p.m., THURSDAY, 17 MARCH, 1983. Printed by the Offiee of the Oueens Printer. Provinw of M1111it0bll

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Second Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation Name ADAM, Hon. A.R. (Pete) ANSTETT, Andy ASHTON, Steve BANMAN, Robert (Bob) BLAKE, David R. (Dave) BROWN, Arnold BUCKLASCHUK, John M. CARROLL, Q.C., Henry N. CORRIN, Brian COWAN, Hon. Jay DESJARDINS, Hon. Laurent DODICK, Doreen DOERN, Russell DOLIN, Mary Beth DOWNEY, James E. DRIEDGER, Albert ENNS, Harry EVANS, Hon. Leonard S. EYLER, Phil FILMON, Gary FOX, Peter GOURLAY, D.M. (Doug) GRAHAM, Harry HAMMOND, Gerrie HARAPIAK, Harry M. HARPER, Elijah HEMPHILL, Hon. Maureen HYDE, Lloyd JOHNSTON, J.

Frank KOSTYRA,Hon. Eugene KOVNATS, Abe LECUYER, Gerard LYON, Q.C., Hon. Sterling MACKLING, Q.C., Hon. Al MALINOWSKI, Donald M. MANNESS, Clayton McKENZIE, J. Wally MERCIER, Q.C., G.W.J. (Gerry) NORDMAN, Rurik (Ric) OLESON, Charlotte ORCHARD, Donald PAWLEY, Q.C., Hon. Howard R. PARASIUK, Hon. Wilson PENNER, Q.C., Hon. Roland PHILLIPS, Myrna A. PLOHMAN, John RANSOM, A. Brian SANTOS, Conrad SCHROEDER, Hon. Vic SCOTT, Don SHERMAN, L.R. (Bud) SMITH, Hon. Muriel STEEN, Warren STORIE, Jerry T. URUSKI, Hon. Bill USKIW, Hon. Samuel WALDING, Hon. D. James Constituency Ste.

Rose Springfield Th ompson La Verendrye Minnedosa Rhineland Gimli Brandon West Ell ice Churchill St. Boniface Riel Elmwood Kildonan Arthur Emerson Lakeside Brandon East River East Tuxedo Concordia Swan River Virden Kirkfield Park The Pas Rupertsland Logan Portage la Prairie Sturgeon Creek Seven Oaks Niakwa Radisson Charleswood St. James St. Johns Morris Roblin-Russell St. Norbert Assiniboia Gladstone Pembina Selkirk Transcona Fort Rouge Wolseley Dauphin Turtle Mountain Burrows Rossmere lnkster Fort Garry Osborne River Heights Flin Flon Interlake Lac du Bonnet St.

Vital Party NOP NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP IND NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP PC NOP PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP PC PC NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP PC PC PC PC PC PC NOP NOP NOP NOP NOP PC NOP NOP NOP PC NOP PC NOP NOP NOP NOP

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, 17 March, 1983. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Walding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Comm ittees . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if I could have agreement of the House.

A little later I will be receiving copies of a statement I wanted to make at this point I'm wondering if I would have agreement from the House, what may be during the question period, to revert back to statements to permit me to give the statement that I would like to make. It will be dealing with the First Ministers' Conference, of course. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RAN SOM: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we would be quite prepared to deal with that perhaps at the end of question period. MR. SPEAKER: Thank you. Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports . . . Notices of Motion .

INTRODUC TION OF BILLS HON. R. PENNER introduced Bill No. 24,

An Act to amend the Registry Act, (2), and Bill No. 35,

An Act to amend The Trustee Act. INTRODUC TION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we get to Oral Questions may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 120 visitors from eight Manitoba High Schools participating in the Provincial High School Basketball Championships. They are under the direction of Mr. Mo rris Glimch er, Executive -Dir ector of the Manitoba High School Athletic Association. They are hosted today by the Honourable Ministers of Education and Recreation and Sport. There are 50 students of Grade 4 standing from the Beaumont School.

The students are under the direction of Mrs. Kay Mclennan. The school is in the constituency of the Honourable Leader of the Opposition. On behalf of all of the members I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUES TIONS Constitutional Conference on Aboriginal Matters MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nou rable Leader of th e Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, these questions may well anticipate statements that the First Minister will be making in the course of his report, or what we presume will be his report, to the Legislature on the ju st concluded Constitutional Conference On Aboriginal Constitutional Matters.

In any event, he can certainly advise us if there is any repitition contained in the questions. It would be our understanding, Mr. Speaker, that the Prime Minister and nine of the Premiers agreed to a substantive amendment to the Constitution in order to replace that which expired, which caused the meeting just concluded to be held. That being the case, can we anticipate during this Session of the Legislature, th at tha t amendment will be brought before the Legislature for approval? 806 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Yes, Mr. Speaker. HON. S.

LYON: During the course of the Constitutional meeting in question, it is our understanding that the Pr emier of Ma nitoba, on behalf of the province, presented to the meeting a document called "Framework Agreement Concerning Cha rter of Aboriginal Rights." My question to the First Minister, Mr. Speaker, would be this. Does the government have a position on this framework and on the principles which underlie this framework and, if so, could members of the House be provided with copies of that statement? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, we will certainly be anxious to provide members of the Legislature with copies of both the Framework Agreement and the Statement of Principles. MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Well, Mr. Speaker, some of us at least already have copies of the Framework Agreement and of the Statement of Principles.

My question specifically was this, could we have from the government its position on the Framework Agreement concerning, for instance, the Charter of Aboriginal Rights, because when one looks at that document one finds that it refers, for instance, to 4(a), a definition of the term, "Aboriginal peoples." To use that as an example, Mr. Speaker, does the government presently have a definition of aboriginal peoples? HON. H. PAWLEY: I'll ask the Attorney-General to deal with that question. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Mr.

Speaker, I should like to just put the Framework Agreement, as called indeed, in context. All that was intended by the Framework

Thursday, 17 March, 1983 Agreement is that it should, in effect, be a table of contents of matters to be discussed over the ongoing process. The Framework Agreement itself is not intended, by delineating a topic for discussion, to take a position one way or another. The positions which the Province of Manitoba took are contained in the Statement of Princip les. The Framework Agreement was simply in anticipation of, in the sense, the bottom line where very little would be agreed upon; that Manitoba would try to persuade the conference to adopt, to guide the ongoing process, a list of matters which ought to be discussed for possible inclusion in what would be

Part II of The Constitution Act, 1982, which presently contains just

Section 35 on Aboriginal Rights. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Attorney­ General for his attempt, at least, at elucidation. I think we had grasped that, that the Framework Agreement was in effect that. But having presented a Framework Agreement, the presumption, and the Attorney-General or the First Minister can tell me if my presumption is inaccu rate, the pr esumpt ion would be that the government would have at least formulated some sets of principles with respect to this Framework.

By way of example there is in the Framework, 4(b), a statement concerning, and the definition of aboriginal title, including the rights of the aboriginal peoples of Canada to a land base. I'm merely attempting to find out if the Government of Manitoba at this stage, having recommended that this framework be put into place, does it have a position vis-a-vis the government and the people of Manitoba on what aboriginal title means? Because, Sir, to some, aboriginal title means that the aboriginal people own everything. No w, that's an exaggerated position that is taken by some.

We want to know what is the position being taken by the Government of Manitoba. HON. H. PAWLEY: Maybe it would helpful and would assist, really, in the questions that the Leader of the Opposition would like to pose, only with the permission of honourable members across the way, to revert to the statement so we ensure that we don't duplicate our efforts, if it's agreeable. If not, we can carry on this route. I have the statement. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, if the First Minister can give me the assurance that my questions will be answered by his statement, we would be quite happy.

Otherwise, I would think that we should carry on with question period. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, it's a tall order to provide the Leader of the Opposition with an assurance that I will be able to satisfy adequately the questions that he poses in the House. I'm not tempted to attempt to provide the Leader of the Opposition with that kind of comp lete assurance, but, Mr. Speaker, we will be distributing the copies of the Statement of Principles that Manitoba presented to the Conference of First Ministers in Ottawa.

Second ly, insofar as the quest ions pertain to aboriginal title, we will be dealing with that in much greater detail at the time that we deal with the resolution 807 which will be presented to this House pursuant to the signature on our part of the Accord that was signed by all nine provinces. The question does cause a requirement of some extensive explanation and detail at that particular time and we're certainly anxious to do that in regard to each and every one of the items listed on the framework for continuing discussions that we tabled at the First Ministers' Conference. HON. S. LYON: Mr.

Speaker, if the First Minister is saying that he now has copies of his statement, we're quite prepared to have him deliver it at this time. MR. SPEAKER: Would it be the will of the House to revert to Mini sterial Statements and return to 34 minutes of question period after that? Agreed? (Agreed) MIN ISTE RIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I thank the Leader of the Opposition for agreeing to permit me to revert. The statement, of course, arises out of the First Ministers' Conference.

As members of the House are aware the two-day meeting of First Min isters on Aboriginal Constitutional Matters concluded yesterday. It ended with an Accord being sig ned by the Federal Government, the provinces, Native organizations, which will ensure that a further conference dealing with these matters will be convened by the Prime Minister within one year. It was also agreed that this conference will include in its agenda th ose items which were not fully considered at the conference for the past two days.

Where the Manitoba delegation was somewhat disappointed by the limited nature of the Accord, and the lack of substantive progress on this conference's agenda items, this disappointment is tempered by the realization that the conference has laid the foundations to what will be an historic process for all Canadians. I'm confident that the end result of this process will eventually change for the better; the destiny, the fate of Canada's aboriginal peoples. Mr. Speaker, I would like at this time to table copies of the Constitutional Accord that were signed yesterday. In fact, they are presently being distributed.

A more substantive report on behalf of the government will be made when the resolution arising from this Accord is introduced in this Cham ber. I would also like to assure the House that the Manitoba Government strongly believes in the ongoing process dealing with aboriginal matters. We should all realize that the entrenchment of aboriginal rights does not dimi nish the rights of other Canadians; it strengthens our people as a society.

I can also assure the House, the Native and the Melis peoples, and all Manitobans, that the consultation we have had with Native peoples during the past year will continue as we prepare for our next constitutional meeting that will be dealing with aboriginal matters. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister, pardon me, the Leader of the Opposition.

Thursday, 17 March, 1983 HON. S. LYON: That's an acceptable slip, Mr. Speaker. We thank the First Minister for this brief statement and for the material that he has sent around to all memers of the House representing the 1983 Constitutional Accord on Aboriginal Rights.

We join with him, Sir, in expressing our support for the concept of continuing discussions with aboriginal people to continue the process of negotiation with respect to matters - not all of which are matters of law by any stretch of the imagination at all - but which have been and continue to be regarded as matters of legitimate grievance by the aboriginal people of Canada, particularly with their national government and with some of the provincial governments as well.

We look forward to participating in the debate on the amendment which will be brought forward , as the Firs t Mi nister indic ates in his statement.

In the meantime, he will understand that there will continue to be, from our side of the House, if not from other parts of the commun ity, questions which will arise about the positions which are stated on behalf of the Government of Manitoba by the First Minister, by his Attorney-General and by others, because some of these statements, ol course, can arouse some disquiet on the part of people, other than those of aboriginal background, with respect to some of the effects that they might have on land holdings, on property rights, on other matters which may well not be in jeopardy wh atsoever.

That is why, from time to time, Sir, we will be asking questions, largely for clarification, largely for the purpose of elucidating what the government means when it talks about such matters as aboriginal lands, title to aboriginal lands, matters that I was questioning the First Minister about before. But we do thank him for this report and will look forward to participating in further debate when the amendment is brought before the Cham ber. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Morris has a point of order? MR. C. MANNESS: No, no point of order. ORAL. QUESTIONS Cont'd School buses MR.

SPEAKER: In accordance with the agreement of the House, Oral Questions. The Ho nourable Member for Morris. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the absence of the Min ister of Education, I'm wondering if I could pose a question to the Minister of Economic Development. I'm wondering whether she can confirm that the Government of Manitoba has awarded a contract for purchasing 75 school buses to an Ontario firm, namely, Thomas Bus. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Economic Development. HON. 1111. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, that is the current situation. MR. C. MANNESS: A supplementary.

I'm wondering if the Minis ter could confirm that a Manitoba-based manufacturer, namely, Superior Bus of Morris, tendered for the contract. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, that is true - at a price over 20 percent above the price submitted by the other firm. Although we do have a policy now whereby we can review tendering and on occasion make a discretionary move in favour of a provincial comp any, we'd never contemplated allowing discretion to that extent. We have reviewed this particular tender several times because we share with the Member for Morris regret at making this decision.

But it's our intent in our purchasing policy to assist local firms where we can but within a certain range of discretion. It hasn't been our intent to ignore completely the cost to the public. MR. C. MANNESS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In light of the government's decision I'm wondering if the Min ister could indicate how many people have been thrown out of work at this time because of that decision. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, there's no simple answer to that question because a firm such as Superior is not dependent solely on one bid or one tender.

They are producing a quality product, they are impr oving their quality and their production efficiency and they do make bids in other places than in Manitoba. The purchasers have worked with the Superior people to help them see where they could impr ove in the tendering process and make sure that they have full knowledge of why they were unable to secure this particular tender. It is certainly our devout wish to give every possible consideration to a Manitoba purchaser.

But I'd be interested to know from the member opposite whether he thinks the government should go to an unlimited extent of price preference for a local supplier, or whether he agrees with us that we can use some discretion but that we cannot go to an extreme position in granting a bid. 808 MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I'm wondering if the Minister can tell me when the contract was officially granted to Thomas Bus and when in fact Superior Bus found out. How many days or weeks or months later? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I can undertake to get that detailed information.

There would have been some delay in the granting of the bid because we did look at it several times and from several angles. It was certainly our wish, if we could have found a sound rationale, to recognize the Superior bid, but we just could find no rationale in this particular instance. MR. C. MANNESS: Mr. Speaker, I'm wondering if the Min ister could confirm that the loss of this contract potentially represented a loss of three or four months work to this particular manuf acturer. HON. M. SMITH: Mr.

Speaker, the normal procedure for a company is to have several tenders in at any one time and I don't know of any company that's com pletely dependent on winning a particular tender. They're in a very difficult situation indeed if they've arrived at that point.

17 March, 1983 As I said to the member opposite, if he can give us any rationale that balances out a reasonable price to be paid by the public for locally produced goods, what reasonable percent difference he would think we should allow in terms of the public interest, I'd be interested in hearing it. In our judgment the difference was just too great in this case. MR. C. MANNESS: A final question, Mr. Speaker.

I'm wondering if the Minister's department has done an analysis on the future viability of Superior Bus in Morris and can she confirm that, with the loss of this contract, probably that company will have to close its doors. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, we've been working closely with Superior Bus for over a year and I think there's no dirth of analyses. There have been severe problems in the operation of the compa ny.

There has been some difficulty with making bids at prices which were below what the cost of production was, and I guess to get the company on an even keel it's been necessary for them to cost out more accurately what it's actually costing them to produce buses. At the same time, they have been putting in place much more efficient measures of inventory control, of production and I have full confidence that the company will weather the current storm and continue to be a producer of buses in Manitoba. Fi rst Ministers' Conference - delegate MR. SPEAK ER: The Ho nour able Mem ber for Minnedosa. MR. D.

BLAKE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is directed to the Minister of Municipal Affairs. I wonder if the Minister could inform the House who is the delegate repr esenting the Unio n of Manitoba Municipalities, or the observer at the recent First Ministers' Conference just concluded in Ottawa. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. A. ADAM: I'm not aware that the Union of Manitoba Munici palities had an observer there. I have read an article, Mr. Speaker, in the press that the Manitoba Urban Association did have an observer at that conference.

That would have been arranged through the First Minister's office so I would refer that to the First Minister. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: I'm pleased that the member has raised this question which is one I think that would be of appropriate concern insofar as the Union of Manitoba Municipalities were concerned. Just prior to our departure for the conference there was a request from the President of the Manitoba Urban Association that Mr.

Bill Shead, who I believe is the Vice-President of the Manitoba Urban Association and is located in Ottawa, be permitted to attend as an observer, to which we acceded to that request. It was a request that came to the Attorney-General, came 809 from the Urban Association just on the eve of our departure for Ottawa and it was on that kind of basis that we agreed to Mr. Shead's attendance, at the request of the Urban Association. There was no formal invitation extended to the Urban Association or to the Union of Manitoba Municipalities. MR. D. BLAKE: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker, to the First Minister. If Mr .

Shead is located in Ottawa, he may find some diffic ulty being Mayor of Selkirk, Manitoba while he's located in Ottawa. I wonder then, in view of the First Minister's answer, if he would undertake to provide an apology to the Union of Manitoba Municipalities that they were not invited to send an observer to the conference. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the request would indeed be appropriate from the Member for Minnedosa if we had extended an invitation to the Urb an Assoc iation and not to the Unio n of Manitoba Municipalities. We extended no invitation to either organization. As I indicated what occurred is, Mr.

Shead who is the Vice-President of the Urban Association, located in Ottawa during the working week, had requested thr ough the Urban Asso ciation Pr esident, Mr. Greenslade from Portage la Prairie, the permission for Mr. Shead to occupy an observer's seat during a portion of the conference. MR. D. BLAKE: Just to follow that up, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Greenslade, the President of the Urban Association, is located in Portage la Prairie where the headquarters of the Union of Manitoba Municipalites is also located and I should have thought there might have been some communic ation there.

Would it be correct for us to assume, in view of the First Minister's answers, that they gate-crashed your party by sending a representative as an observer? HON. H. PAWLEY: I can't quite fathom what the Member for Minnedosa is asking, Mr. Speaker. I don't what else there is to say except to emphasize that a request came through at the last moment for Mr. Shead to attend as an observer. I think it would be rather small-minded on our part to say no, particularly when Mr. Shead was able to come in to observe for a few hours, to report back to the Urban Association and to do so at no cost to the Province of Manitoba.

In case there is some concern about whether or not Mr. Shead's accommodations or travel or other arrangements were paid for as an observer, the answer is no. Proposed school at lie des Clumes MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, my question is to the First Minister as well. The Premier has expounded an open-door policy in terms of meeting with the people of Manitoba when they have concerns.

In view of the controversy that is going on in the Seine River School Division regarding the proposed school at lie des Chenes, can the Premier indicate why the people that have been raising objections have not been

Thursday, 17 March, 1983 able to meet with the First Minister or with the Minister of Education for the past many months? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm not quite sure exactly who the member is referring to but there have been meetings involving the Minister of Education, I believe. There have certainly been meetings with people within my own office insofar as the concerns re the parents at Seine River. It is my understanding, Mr. Speaker, however, that the matter is basically a school division matter. It's a matter that falls within the responsibility of the school division and as a result, Mr.

Speaker, I think that there would be little that could be accomplished insofar as a meeting that would appear to be stepping on the jurisdiction of the local school division, Seine River. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, then to the First Min ister. His answer seems to be contrary to the things that he is always expounding in terms of meeting with all people of Manitoba. Incidentally, I might indicate that for four months they've been trying to meet with the Minister of Education as well as with the Premier.

In view of the fact that they can't meet with the First Minister or his Minister of Education, and in view of the fact that the bill that was introduced by the Minister of Municipal Affairs yesterday, Bill 21, which indicates that there's a possi bility of mu nicipa lities holding referendums !or various issues, would the First Minister give the people that are concerned in the Seine River School Division about the building of a school in lle des Chenes the opportunity to hold a referendum in that school division? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, surely it ought to be clear that the issues that pertain to school divisions are matters that are dealt with within the democratic process within a school division. If the majority of the ratepayers within a given school division disagree with the position of their board, then the approp riate measure within a democratic society is for the removal of the school division members with which they have disagreement. Mr. Speaker, that is the democratic process, as I understand it, pertaining to the school division. As to the issue of a referendum, Mr.

Speaker, that is a matter that falls within the appropriate decision­ making of the mun icipality insofar as any situation involving any question to be placed upon the ballot. I might just mention when I'm on my feet that this question first arose from the Member for Pembina about referendums pertaining to the disarmament issue. It is my understanding that three municipa lities in his riding have ind icated an inte rest in ensuring that the disarmament resolution is dealt with by way of a referendum in their muni cipalities. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, to the First Minister then, a final supplementary. If he is promoting the democratic system, would he then not agree that to have a referendum about a controversial issue in the Seine River School Division would be one way to do it? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, as I have indicated earlier, the issue of whether to submit a matter to a 810 referendum depends upon the decision-making that exists within the municipa lity. This government does not intend to tell mun icipalities whether they're to have referendums on any particular issue or other.

That is a matter that falls within the decision-making of the muni cipalities within which the school division exists as to whether or not there ought to be a referendum pertaining to the school issue. That is the appropriate decision -making body to make that decision, Mr. Speaker. Closing of obstetrical units MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Garry. MR. L SHERMAN: Mr.

Speaker, in the absence of the Minister of Health and in keeping with the open­ government policy just re-expounded by th e First Minister, could I ask the First Minister whether the absence this afternoon from the House of the Minister of Health would indicate that the Minister of Health is now, after the fact, meeting with the Board of Seven Oaks Hospital and Concordia Hospital to advise them of the closure of their obstetrical units? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: On a point of order. I believe, Mr.

Speaker, and this was ruled upon at the last Session that it's impr oper to raise a question pertaining to the absence of a member from the House. MR. l. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order, I am perfectly willing to withd raw that reference to the Minister of Health and certainly there was no intended criticism. The Minister, I assume is busy - I know he's busy - my question simply is, is he now holding those meetings with those two hospitals which he didn't hold before making his announcement? HON. H. PAWLEY: My apologies, Mr.

Speaker, there was so much talk back and forth I couldn't hear the honourable member's final words - if he wouldn't mind repeating them. MR. L SHERMAN: I think, Mr. Speaker, that there is so much noise coming from the direction of the Minister of Communi ty Services and Corrections that the First Minister couldn't hear. Let me put it this way, Mr. Speaker. In view of the fact that the Minister of Health is extremely busy and is working very hard, no doubt 14 or 16 hours a day, most Ministers do, all Ministers do from my experience. Could the First Minister advise the House whether the Minister of Health's busy

schedule today is being devoted to holding those meetings with Concordia and Seven Oaks that were not held prior to the decision to close their obstetrical units? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm informed that the Minister of Health is out of the province on government business today.

Jobs Fund - Capital MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the Minister of Finance. Could the Minister of Finance advise the House whether or not the $83 million of new Capital Expenditure authority for the Jobs Fund is also part of the $520 million Crown corporation planned spending as stated in the Budget? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to welcome the member back from Ottawa. It's been lonely here. I haven't had any questions for a few days.

Those num bers are a part, initially, of the Crown corporation spending for the year 1983-84 - and I had answered a question in his absence. I want to make it very clear, however, that that $83 million, although there's sort of a temporary designation, can be shifted around within the Jobs Fund itself, within the $200 million fund. One of the reasons we wanted to create that fund which I said on Budget night was approximately half new money - and it is - was that we would have more flexibility.

When it becomes clear that we're not going to spend money in one area, we can look at other areas that will be job-int ensive, and also beneficial in the long run for the Capital development of the Province of Manitoba. MR. B. RANSOM: Well, Mr. Speaker, I know that the Minister of Finance considers that I'm easily confused, but perhaps some of that problem lies with the Minister, refusing on most occasions to give a direct answer to a question.

The direct question here simply was, is the $83 million of new Capital Expenditure part of the $520 million Capital Expenditur e planned by Cr own corporations as stated in the Budget? Is that statement in the Budget accurate? Yes or no will do. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Mr. Speaker, I think if the member wishes to refer to my previous answer, that question was answered. Government borrowing MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, a few days ago I asked the Acting Min ister of Finance if she could advise the House how much borrowing the government intended to undertake before the end of March this year.

I wonder if the Minister has an answer to that question. HON. V. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Speaker, we have com pleted our borrowing requirements as of now for the year 1982-83. Returns to orders MR. B. RANSOM: I have a question for the Attorney­ General in his capacity as House Leader. Last year, Mr. Speaker, there were a numb er of written questions 811 1983 placed on the Order Paper and we had been assured that answers would be forthcoming to those questions. So far, we have not received answers to them all and I wonder if the Government House Leader can advise us when we might expect those answers. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, I'll take that question as notice. I have been monitoring the returns from time to time. I'm certainly prepared to review with the respective Treasury Bench members where the answers are in process. I'm satisfied that they are all in preparation and will be tabled as soon as available, but I will be more precise either by tomorrow or Monday at the latest. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, a further question to the Government House Leader.

Since the House has now been sitting for some three weeks and time is wearing on - we're over halfway through March - I'm wondering when the government will become organized to the point that they will be able to call some commit tee meetings of the standing commit tees. HON. R. PENNER: I will not, in order to prevent the raking up of old fires and dead ashes, remind members of this House why we're so delayed. We are not at all di_sorganized, we're fully organized. Comm ittee meetings will be announced during the course of this coming week. Searching fees MR. SPEAKER: The Ho nourable Memb er for La Verendrye. MR.

FI. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I direct my question to the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and would ask him whether or not the fee which is charged when searching out the name for a company, for a business in the province, somebody that wants to register a business, if that fee charge has been increased from $5 to $20.00. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I'll take that question as notice. I believe that information is published in the Manitoba Gazette. I will seek that out and I'll report back. MR. R.

BANMAN: I wonder, Mr. Speaker, if he could also check into the problem that many people who wish to incorporate a company and are searching out a name are now facing and that is that if the one name they wish to register is not acceptable - I have one case where they had to go and do three or four searches. It cost $100 before you can find a name that you can register,

whereas before, it only cost you maybe about $1 0.00. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I'll take that question as notice.

Thursday, 17 March, 1983 Resuming of Public Utilities Committee MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. HON. S. LYON: Mr. Speaker, followi ng upon the question of the Opposition House Leader, could I ask the Attorney-General, either on his own behalf or on behalf of the Minister of Mines and Energy, if he could give an undertaking to the House that the Public Utilities Comm ittee of this Legislature, the Standing Commi ttee, be called at an early date.

It was requested by the opposition in December that that comm ittee be called for the purposes of hearing the then President of Manitoba Hydro whose contract was not renewed by this government. Will he give an undertaking that the Public Utilities Committee will be called at an early date in order that we may get on with the business of Manitoba's largest Crown corporation and be no longer delayed by the incoherence and chaotic organization of this government? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable the Attorney-General. HON. R.

PENNER: As I said in my previous answer, I will furnish the House next week with a proposed list of the commit tee dates and that will include a date for the meeting of the Public Utilities Commi ttee. ORDERS Of THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HOH. R. PENNER: Mr. Speaker, would you please call the proposed motion, standing in my name, on page 4, with respect to the extension of time for the Tabling of Reports, and the extension of time with respect to Private Bills. It stands adjourned in the name of the Member for Turtle Mountain. MR.

SPEAKER: On the pro posed motion of the Honourable Attorney-General. The Honourable Member for Turtle Mountain. MR. B. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, I would ask that this matter stand. My understanding from speaking with the Government House Leader earlier today was that this would not be called. MR. SPEAKER: Stand. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Yes, I regret that I left that impr ession with the Member for Turtle Mountain. I don't recall having said anything that would have indicated that.

Nevertheless, if that's his im pression, I am perfectly prepared to call it tomorrow, and I 'Nill then give notice that it will be called tomorrow to be dealt with. MR. SPEA KER : The next item. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. R. PENNER: Mr- Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Finance, that Mr. Speaker do now leave 812 the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Comm ittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the Ho use resolved itself into a Comm ittee of Supply with the Honourable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture, and the Honourable Member for Burr ows in the Chair for the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. R. PENNER: The Estimates with respect to Agriculture will proceed in the House and the Estimates of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs will proceed in a comm ittee outside of the House. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES Of SUPPLY SUPPLY - CONSUMER AND CORPORATE AFFAIRS MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santos: The Comm ittee may now begin. This

section of the Commi ttee of Supply will be dealing with the Estima tes of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. We will begin at Item 1. (a). Does the Minister have anything to say? We shall begin with the Minister's opening remarks. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, honourable mem bers. I'm pleased to present the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs 1983- 84 spending Estimates. This being the first opportunity I have had as a Minister to present Estimates I ask that members bear with me.

This year for the first time, for the Consumer and Corporate Affairs Department, the honourable members are being provided with a Supplement to the printed Estimates. These have already been handed out and I will be making reference to them. The Supplement gi ves an overview of the department 's Budget requirements, a detailed financial analysis by program, including a description of program responsibilities and some historical Budget comparisons.

I'm pleased that we can provide the information to members on a trial basis as it is my position that the more information members have the more meaningful Estimates debate is. If any of the honourable members have any suggestions for im proving the format or for additional material that they would like to see included in the future I would appr eciate rec eiving your comments. Some things I would iike to see included in future years are output statistics such as are containe d in the Annual Report, perhaps written explanations of the variances from one year to the next.

Moving directly to the Estimates before you, the first Resolution, No. 37, found on Page 34 of the Main Estimates covers Appropriation 1. Management and Admi nistration. This appropriation contains provision for one�half of my salary as Minister; funding for the Executive Offices, that is, my office and the Deputy Minister's office; our Admi nistration Branch and the Consumer Commun ications Branch. You will note there is an increase of $11 0, 100 in expenditur e in Appropriation 1 - $79,900 is related to the general salary increase, the occurrence of a 27th pay period next

17 March, 1983 fiscal year, and salary adjustments. Also included is the reduction of a clerical position and $1 5,800 in funding in the Deputy Minister's office. The increase of $27,200 in line {b)(2) in Other Expenditures in Appropria tion 1, is an increase in the Consumer Commu nications Budget to allow for an expanded information program related to door-to-door sales and for some translation of existing material into other languages. The Consumer Com mu nic ations Branch is as important a part of this department as programs.

In my view, having good consumer protection law is only half the battle; communicating the law and what it means in day-to-day living is a necessary second half. I would go so far as to say that law which few are aware of, or that is incomprehensible to the average person, is bad law. Alerting consumers to potential problems prior to purch ases is obviously highly desirable, but perhaps not so obvious is the branch's role in providing information to consumers and business people in regard to their rights and responsibilities under the laws of Manitoba.

This is a problem of long standing and one which wi ll be somewhat expanded, as I have indicated. New in 1983-84 for the consumer commu nications area will be the start up of a Volunteer Outreach Program. Essentially, volunteers will be used to help reach those Manitobans with whom the department has more difficulty with communicating this information and educational program. The main target group for 1983-84 for this program will be seniors.

If the desired level of success is achieved with that group, the Volunteer Program may be expanded in 1984-85 to include new Canadians and others for whom the language may be a problem. Appropriation 2, Resolution No. 38, Consumer Affairs covers the Consumers' Bureau Program and policy support and grants to organizations. The Consumers' Bu reau has experienced a dr amatic incr ease in workload over the last year up over 30 percent. As a result, an additional officer postion has been added to the Consumers' Bureau.

That, plus some administrative changes to ease processing of files and licences, should allow the bureau to maintain this level of service to the public. In the area of research and monitoring consumer problems, the Program and Policy Support Branch has also been busy. This area is responsible for reviewing a host of consumer issues and legislation. This includes commo dity prices such as gasoline, and federal legislative initiatives. The Branch also plays a role in the legislative initiatives of the department.

One of the changes in Consumer Affairs has been a deletion of the Assistant Deputy Minister's position. This position was necessary when the department's responsibilities included environmental management, but with th e transfer of those and other responsibilities, the position became redundant. The increase in expenditures in Consumer Affairs is in salaries and reflects the general salary increase, the 27th pay period and annual increments for a total of $1 76,700 plus $30,000 for the additional officer for the Consumers' Bureau, less the funding for the Assistant Deputy Minister's position.

A small increase of nine percent for grants is included. Resolution 39, Appropriation 3, Corporation Affairs, includes the Corporat ions Branch, the In surance 813 Branch, the Securities Commission and the Public Utilities Board. Again the increase is due almost entirely to salaries which have risen $295,000, due to general salary increases, annual increments and the 27th pay period. During 1983-84, my officials will begin reviewing The Corporations Act in regard to trust company administration and The Insurance Act. Recent events have highlighted the necessity for these reviews.

The honourable members should be aware that in the case of Northern Union Insurance Com pany, the provisional liquidator, Dunwoody Ltd., is working to wind up the affairs of that comp any. That then, is a brief look at the Estimates for 1983- 84 for Consumer and Corporate Affairs. I recommend these Estimates to you for your scrutiny and approval. MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the Opposition critic have anything to say on this matter? The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman, just in beginning to review the Estimates of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs I'd like to make a few brief remarks and ask if the Minister would consider sharing with us a copy of his opening remarks. I tried to take some notes based on his remarks, but it might be easier if I could have that to review over the supper hour and, therefore, not have to ask him questions that may be answered in his opening remarks. I think this was standard practice in the past. I know we certainly gave copies out.

If this is so, that might save a little time and following upon that I would certainly like to, on behalf of the Mem bers of the Opposition, welcome him to his position as Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. We will, I assure him, bear with him in going through this.

Our objective is to obtain as much inf ormation as pos sible in order to satisfy ourselves as to the priorities and objectives of his department, through the Estimates process, and will be happy to have him, since we are in the context of the commi ttee location, refer to whatever resources within his department are available to provide him with the information that we require in order to do justice to the Estimates. In beginning the process his opening remarks did raise a numb er of items that I'd like to comment on or question.

I wonder if he could just do an overall analysis because it certainly occurred to me as soon as I received the Estimates, that there was a rather large increase in salaries in the department. Of course, if one looked at it on a percentage basis it seemed inordinately large. The Minister has indicated that essentially there has been almost no inc rease in SMYs, that it is just a combination of the general salary increases and the increments.

Of course, I think most Manitobans, most taxpayers are not aware of the cumulative effect They look upon settlements such as the Manitoba Government Employees Association recently received, which say that there's been a, shall we say, an 8 percent or a 10 percent or whatever the figure is, increase one year over another and they're not aware of the fact tha t in addition these employees get incr emental increases by virtue of entering another category from their years of experience and they keep being bumped up.

Thursday, 17 March, 1983 So I wonder if we could just have, some time in the next day or so, the analysis done of just what is the overall effect of the combi ned increases of the GSI and increments on a percentage basis for this department, stripping out any increases or decreases in SMYs and see what the total produces as an increase for this department, just as an example.

As well, I note that the Minister referred to the deletion of an Assistant Deputy Minister position within the department saying that the reason it had existed, of course, was because of the former combination of Consumer and Corporate Affairs and Environment, and that the ADM was the ADM of Environment. But I was rather surprised at that since that re-organization took place prior to last year's Estimates and if it appeared in last year's Estimates as a staff position and a figure was attached to it, then would there not have been a simi lar position for Dr.

Bowen who was the ADM of Environment in the Environment section, which was combined with the Northern Affairs Estimates last year? If that was the case then, does that mean that the department was underspent in its expenditures last year as com pared to the Estim ates that were printed? Do you have any recent computer printouts that indicate to what extent the depart ment was either underexpended or overexpended comp ared to the printed Estimates figures last year?

Finally, I wonder as a part of the opening statement, if the Minister could indicate to us what new legislation he will be pres enting to th e House under hi s responsibilities as Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, that is, what new legislaton, what bills he is assured of presenting to the House at this point in time, and what are under contemplation. That possibi!y might save a lot of discussion and questioning that I have in mind to do, if he could indicate just what are under consideration and what bills are to be presented at this Session under his responsibilities for Consumer and Corporate Affairs.

Finally, if I could just ask the question based on his opening remarks of what materials are to be translated and into which languages. He referred to several folders which I assume are to do with Consumer Affairs, the various responsibilities and services that are provided by the Consumer Affairs

section of his department for the edification and protection of consumers, to make them aware of their responsibilities - I know there are various folders - and I just wonder which ones are being given priority in terms of material intended to be translated and into which languages. MR. CHAIRMAN: As customary, we shall defer the debate on the item, Min ister's Salary, and shall begin on Item 1. (b )(1). The staff may now come forward if they wish to. The Member for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, on 1. (b)(1) the Minister indicated that an ADM position was deleted, yet salaries are up fairly significantly. Is there an increase in the numb er of positions in this area is the first question. The second question is, how many executive assistants does the Minister have, or special assistants? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Just in discussing these figures, I am just wondering, do we want to refer to 814 the supplements? It's a little simpler and there is certainly more information there. I think we would turn to Page 19. The first question was the increase in salaries from $497,000 to $576,900.00.

That gives us a difference, I believe, of $79,900 that I referred to in my opening remarks. I would refer you to References 2, 3 and 4 on Pages 19, 20 and 21. I believe that's right. If we deal with the personnel sections of those three references, that will account for that difference of $79,900.00. In terms of staff years, we have 20.26 for last year and for 1983- 84 it is one staff year less, 19 .26. The second question. I have an executive assistant who is paid out of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. I have a special assistant who is out of Co-Op Development. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Tuxedo. MR.

G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, the decrease of one in the clerical, that was the only change then in that

section of the Estimates? It is down by one. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: That appears to be the only change. MR. G. FILMON: I wonder then, if the Minister could respond to a couple of the questions that I put to him, one being, where we would find a deletion of the ADM in the Estimates? Why is that ADM of Environment was still in the staff compliment when presumably he was transferred over with the Environment Department in Northern Affairs Estimates last year? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: With reference to that ADM's position, my understanding is that the position came from the Planning and Program ming Branch, and the ADM position, of course, is occupied by the present Deputy Minister. So this change was initiated some time ago, it is not something that has just happened overnight. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thought that was the case, Mr.

Zasada, of course, was appointed Assistant Deputy Minister under our administration when I was Minister responsible and I recognize that he is now the Deputy Minister, so you are saying that his position as Assistant Deputy Minister is not to be filled. But I thought - and I haven't had time to go through them - in your opening remarks you had referred to the tran sfer with respect to the Environmental Management section. I could be wrong but I thought !here was a reference when you spoke on that. HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: I am informed that the Assistant Deputy Minister's position was created when Environmental Management was part of the department, and when that was taken out that position was no longer there. MR. G. FllMON: So what you are saying is that with the reduced responsibilities of Consumer and Corporate

Thursday, 17 March, 1983 Affairs it has been decided that it doesn't require both the Deputy Minister and an Assistant Deputy Minister, but one administrative position will suffice. HON. J. BUCKlASCHUK: That is correct. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1 )- pass? MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister would answer the question that I posed to him about which folders and which materials were to be translated and into which languages. HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: The folders that are being translated, I'm taking that to find out information, but thes e are taken at the request of, I believe, the International Centre, as we have newcomers to the province and there is a need for pamph lets in various languages. The more important pamph lets will be translated into that language. Some of the pamphlets that our department will be issuing will also be translated into French, or are being translated into French. MR. G. FILMON: I believe, Mr. Chairman, that some of those folders were available in French in the past, is that correct? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, they have been, and this is part of an ongoing program so we will find additional pamphlets. I might mention that pamph lets are also being translated into Chinese. I don't know if they were in tha t language previously. MR. G. FILMON: Which pamp hlets? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: In answer to your question I would have some difficulty in responding to it at this time because the individual that is responsible for the pamph lets is currently on leave, and when she rejoins us then she will be meeting with the International Centre and determining what the needs are. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Chairman, what is the amount of money that has been allocated for those translations for this year? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: The figure is $8,000 in total. MR. G. FILMON: Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister would respond to the requests that i made for a little bit of statistical information. Will he accept my requ est and offer to bring back the information within the next day or so? Or will he reject my request for the information about the most recent computer printout, as to whether or not the department will be underspent or overspent versus last year's Estimates?

Also, will he undertake to bring a percentage that gives an increase of the salaries for the department, leaving aside any deletions or additions to staff but just taking the same staff com plement this year versus last year, and the effect of the accumulative effect of GSI and increments? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, I will provide information as soon as possible. 815 MR. G. FILMON: May we have it before we're finished the Estimates? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I'm informed that we can have this information by Monday. Will that be sufficient? MR. G.

FILMON: I guess we'll have to keep the Estimates going until Monday then, Mr. Chairman. Would the Minister as well, answer please, the question that I asked about what new legislation he will be presenting to the House under his responsibilities as Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, both those that he is certain of presenting this Session and others that are being considered? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: At the present time we have intr oduc ed amendments to thr ee Acts, The Corporations Act, Partnersh ip Act, Bus iness Registrations Name Act. Those are the only ones that I can say at the present time.

We will be looking at additional pieces of legislation but it has to clear through the process before those are introduced. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Assiniboia. MR. R. NORDMAN: Mr. Chairman, just one little item, ju st cur iosi ty. We've got an amount in here for approximately $1 8,000 for travelling. What travelling do we do? HON. J. BUCKlASCHUK: Is that the figure on Page 19 for $16, 000.00? MR. R. NORDMAN: The $16,000 there and then there's $1 ,000 on the next two pages, there's $1,2 00.00. HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, those three figures are budgeted figures for travelling expenses for the Deputy Minister, for the Minister, and I understand that in that figure will be expenditures for overtime for staff, meals, those types of expenses. MR. R. NORDMAN: In that figure? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: That's right. MR. R. NORDMAN: Okay. Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if i could ask the Minister if he would tell us what legislation is under consideration for this Session by his department I know which ones have been introduced in the House and I'm happy to have that confirmed, but what is under consideration at the moment? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: We may be looking at amendments to The Mo rtga ge Brokers Act, The Personal In vestigations Act, amendme nts to The Consumer Protection Act. Those are thr ee Acts that we may be bringing amendments in. MR. G. FILMON: What was the second one?

Thursday, 17 March, 1983 HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: The Personal Investigations Act. MR. G. FILMON: Can I assume from that then, that the Minister does not intend to bring in legislation that would permit the government to enter the life insurance industry in Manitoba? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Mr. Chairman, is this the appropriate forum to deal with that issue? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to submit that it is. The government is not in the business. This is part of the executiv e admini stration of the department.

I believe the Minister is charged with the responsibi lity of inv estigat ing whether or not the government is reporting and recommending action on that Throne Speech promise, and I think this is the area where this general question can be discussed. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Springfield. MR. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Chairman, to the question of the Minister, which I take is being raised as a point of order. The government's intentions with regard to policy are enunciated in the Throne Speech and the Mem ber for St. Norbert is free to take whatever conclusions he wishes to take from that.

The detailing of enactment of government policy where it requires legislation, requires the introduction of a bill and we would be duplicating that debate if we began to go into that matter at this point. The gov ernment has annou nced its policy. The purpose of this comm ittee meeting is to discuss the Estimates of Expenditure. Only if there was a line providing Estimates of Expenditure relating to the proposed program that was in the Throne Speech, would that examination and that policy question then come under the purvue of this comm ittee. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for St. Norbert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, this line involves executive direction and co-ordination of programs. This Min ister is cha rged with the respo nsibility of investigating the entrance of the government into the life insurance industry. Unless he is doing nothing, Mr. Chairman, with which I would be happy, he must be doing something on it in this particular section. This is an executive responsibility and surely we are entitled to ask questions under this

section on his responsibility. MR. CHAIRMAN: Does the Minister wish to reply? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: In my capacity as Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, I'm responsible for the regulation of the insurance industry. The question as to whether or not we'll be bringing in legislation to enable MP IC to get into the life insurance and pension areas is a matter that is within my responsibility as the Minister responsible for MP IC. MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Premier. 816 HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Chairman, so there need be no misund erstanding, I think there is also, if I understand correctly, even with a decision, if one be positive to proceed into the life insurance field, there is a question which can only be dealt with by legal advisors as to whether or not legislation is necessary. The question presupposes the necessity of legislation and that is a matter that would have to be finally determined by way of the Attorney-General's Department or legal advisors as to whether legislation was actually required under the existing legislation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Norbert. MR. G.

MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to know what studies the Minister undertook with regard to the life insurance industry prior to the announcement in the Throne Speech. HON . J. BUCKLASCH UK: The Throne Speech is arrived at by consultation with members of Cabinet and it was a decision at that time that we would consider the feasibility of entering into that area. There may have been studies done prior to my having assumed the responsibility for that area. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMO lll: Mr.

Chairman, we assume then that the department or the Superintendent of Insurance did not make any studies that led to this decision. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Again, I would have to say that in my responsibility as the Minister for Consumer and Corporate Affairs and being responsible for the department of the Superintendent of Insurance, it's the responsibility of the department to regulate and to license insurance companies. MR. G.

FILMO lll: Well then, in that capacity and having regard to that responsibility for regulating and licensing, did the Superintendent of Insurance at any time make a recommendation that it would be in the public interest to have the government enter into the field for whatever reason, for keeping a window on the industry, or ensuring that there was fair competition, or ensuring that the rates would be more competitive or anything like that? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: I did not receive any such recommendation from the superintendent, nor do I receive similar recommendations on existing insurance companies from the superintendent. MR. G. FilMON: Did the Minister say that he doesn't receive recommendations about whether or not ins ur ance compa nies should op erate, from the Superintendent of Insurance? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: That wasn't what I was saying.

You had referred to items such as competitive rates and so on, and my response is that is not the type of information that the superintendent provides me, as to whether one company is more competitive than the other.

Thursday, 17 March, 1983 MR. G. FllMON: The point of my giving as an example the com petitiveness of rates was to determine whether or not there was some public interest in providing more competition or a window on the industry by virtue of government involvement in life insurance marketing in this province. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: We're dealing with a political decision and that isn't a type of decision that would come from the Superintendent of Insurance. MR. G. FllMON: So we can assume that there was no recom mendation and th ere was no study or information acquired that led to that political decision then. HON.

J. BUCKLAS CH UK : There was no recommenda tion, study or wh atever from the Superintendent of Insurance. MR. G. FILMON: Or any portion of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Or any portion of the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1 )- pass; 1.(b)(2)- pass; 2.(a). The Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, the Minister indicated that among other things, one of the things he didn't indicate in his response regarding legislation under consideration was anything to do with the protection of deposits of consumers on major purchases.

That was a matter that I questioned his predecessor about last year and I'm wondering whether or not that type of legislation is being contemplated. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, it is. It would be under The Consumer Protection Act. MR. G. FllMON: Is it at the present time considered that that would be narrowly defined to cover purchases just in certain areas such as automobiles as I believe that they have enacted or presented to the House in Ontario, or would it be broader than that and cover all major purchases of hard goods or travel or any other areas? Could I ask the Minister that? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: It would be my hope that it would extend beyond deposits on automobiles and perhaps include furniture, major items. I don't, at this time, foresee that it would cover the travel industry. MR. G. FllMON: Last year, Mr.

Chairman, as a result of the failure of a fairly large tour wholesaler in the travel business in Manitoba, the Minister's predecessor stated that legislation was under development that would bring forth travel industry legislation and I believe that both during the Estimates process and questions in the House, the Minister gave the distinct impr ession that it was a priority of the government.

I am aware because I was just reviewing my copy of a draft of such legislation - that a first draft that admittedly needed changing and needed revision - but a first draft had 817 been produc ed way back in 1981 under our administration. In fact, there had been other drafts produced earlier than that but this was one that was submi tted, I believe, to the travel industry. I'd like to know then, since that wasn't one of the pieces of legislation the Minister indicated that his department was looking at, I'd like to know what is delaying that and at what stage that legislation is. HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: In response to the question about the travel industry and some sort of insurance, we have held meetings with the industry. We had made some prop osals that I would think would not be acceptable to the industry. I've been informed quite recently that the Alliance for the Canadian Travel Agents is looking at a national plan. It would be more attractive because of the reciprocity involved and because of the volume, the rates would probably be much more favourable than anything that could be developed on a provincial basis.

I've just even more recently been informed it seems that their efforts are meeting with some success and it's hoped there will be a program that will be available in the near future which would then preclude the necessity for an insurance program on a provincial level. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, may I ask what aspect of the proposed legislation the Minister felt wouldn't be acceptable to travel agents in Manitoba? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: There were three areas that were of concern to the industry. No. 1, was the ability to raise levies from their members.

The second question was the one of joint and several liability. The third problem was how the administration of the program was to be financed. The research that had been done in our department indicated that there would be an expenditure in the neighbourhood of around $200,000 a year. We did discuss the possibility of a levy against the industry, to perhaps jointly and equally share in the cost of the administration of the program and this was felt to be unacceptable. MR. G.

FllMON: I would take it that such protection for travelers would be in the form of an insurance fund, and then there would be the costs of administering such a fund. So separating the two, is the Minister saying that when he referred to the levies being unacceptable to members, that they wouldn't be willing to pay insurance premiums for insurance protection on the travel business they were doing? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I'm advised that it was the question of the special levy that was found to be unacceptable.

This levy, I understand, is a requirement of the Ontario, B.C. and Quebec legislation and it's brought in once there is a draw on the fund, or a need to replenish the fund. The industry thought this would present some difficulties to its membership MR. G. FllMON: Well, is the Minister now prepared then to allow the status quo to exist? There are some very real risks to people who are booked to travel these days. We were fortunate in that over many years we have not had a major failure until about a year ago in

Thursday, 17 March, 1983 Manitoba. But other jurisdi ctions, principally Ontario, and I think as well British Columbia, have had some real major failures that have resulted in substantial personal losses to individuals who habe been booked with tour companies, travel agencies, wholesalers, whatever. Is the Minister saying that he's prepared to just simply not arrive at agreement with the indus try and let the status quo exist with all of its attendant risks? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: No, I certainly didn't say that.

I should inform the Member for Tuxedo that we do share his concerns about the possibility of travelers losing thei r investment because of some financial pro blems of the wholesaler or the agent, the wholesaler particularly. I'm sure the member also is aware that the legislation in the other provinces is not without its problems. They're not ideal vehicles to provide this type of protect ion.

We have been informed by the industry that there is this research being done at the present time to come up with a national program and they have asked us not to pursue our efforts any further until such time as they hear from us. Should the attempts that they're making on a national basis not come to be, then we have assured them that we are willing to assist them in every way possi ble to come up with some sort of a provincial program. MR. G.

FILMON: Has any deadline been agreed upon as to how long you're prepared to allow the ACTA group to put together their national plan before you 'r e prepared to step up efforts to have a provincial plan? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I believe we are awaiting word from the person that is involved with the legislative committee and I would hope that we would hear from her within the next week or two. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Norb ert. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if the Minister would be agreeable, just going for one question on Item 1. (b )(2), Other Expendit ures.

I am just trying to get ada pted to this new format in the Supplementary Information. In the Supplementary Information there is an indication that advertising is going from $12,600 to $32,600.00. I wonder if the Minister could explain that rather large increase in advertising? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I am informed that in those figur es is an allocat ion of $20,0 00 for a specia l advertising program on door-to-door sales. We are aware, and I have had correspondence from the Member for Turtle Mountain and from other areas of the province that, in fact, there is a pro blem out there.

So we hope to addr ess it through a vigorous advertising campaign. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chair man, I thank the Minister for going back and answering that question. On the matter raised by my colleague, the Member for Tuxedo. setting aside the travel industry for a moment, he indicated that their government is giving consideration 818 to some changes in the legislation to protect deposits on major purchases. Could he indicate what, if any, consultation there is going on with industry on that aspect? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: The Consumers' Bureau did carry out a su rvey last spring.

They contacted major automobile dealers and furniture dealers. The response was quite positive to the establishment of some trust­ account mechanism in which they would launch the deposits. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chai rman, has the Minister or his department given any consideration to what might be a more simpler way of dealing with this pro blem which is very serious for the individuals affected. If there were a change in the bankruptcy legislation and the priorities under the bankruptcy legislation, this might very well go some distance to solving the pro blem.

Has the Minister considered that, and if he has, has he had any communications with the Federal Mi nister responsible for The Bankr uptcy Act? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Well, I thank the member for that suggest ion. it has been ind icated that bankruptcy legislation is within federal jurisdiction and I am not aware of any correspondence that may have gone to the Federal Government on this subject. it might be worth looking at. MR. G. MERCIER: Mr.

Chairman, I think it would be well worthwhile to think of that and to give it some consideration and communicate with the Federal Government on it because it has been a serious problem over the past few years. In view of the state of the economy, it may very well continue to be a serious problem. If I could raise jus t another matter relating to consumers, a matter which some consti tuents have talked to me about from time to time. lt is relative to telephone soliciting and the badgering, particularly of women at home, who continually receive telephone soliciting calls.

I think they are generally very reasonable people and find a few acceptable, but in many instances recen tly , telephone soliciting, as they have commu nicated to me, is very very bothersome to them, and there are repeated calls from the same organizations. it is prob ably just a few organizations that are the culprits in that area. But I wonder If the Minister or his depar tment has considered that? I don't have the answer to it. I would be concerned about undue interference with the private sector, but I wonder if any thought has been given to it? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: I thank the member for bringing that to my attention. I must admit that I haven't received any complaints in my office on this particular problem, but I can appreciate that telephone soliciting can be very bothersome, particularly to the elderly and particularly if you have a persistent solicitor. If the telephone soliciting is being done on behalf of a licensed direct seller and if there were sufficient complaints made to the Consumers' Bureau, we could take a look at conditioning that license, so that we could restrict the hours or the manner.

Thursday, 17 March, 1983 MR. G. MERCIER: Mr. Chairman, thank the Minister for that and I can pass on that information. As I understand it, if they are licensed as a direct seller, then complaints could be made. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b)- pass? The Member for Tuxedo. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, I wonder as well, if the Min ister wishes to discuss under this item another matter that is very topical - in fact it is in today's paper about the Captran Resorts, Falcon Lake Resort and Club.

At the time that our government left office, we had authorized the department to proceed with the preparation of legislation for time-sharing properties. I'm wondering whether or not the Minister's department is involved in this or is still cont emp lating it , or conversely, whether or not the Minister's department is up-to-date in playing a role in the current difficulties that are being experienced at Falcon Lake Resort. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Would the member want me to respond to that at this time or when we are dealing with the Securities Commission? MR. G.

FILMON: I thought the Minister might prefer to do that, so that's why I raise the matter now, just to ensure that we have it on the table and can discuss it. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Okay, we will deal with it at that time then. MR. G. FI LMON: Mr . Chairman, last year the department gave a grant to an outfit called Community Credit Counselling Service. Is there another grant this year to that organization and, if so, in what amount? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, that will be dealt with in

Section 3 under Corporate Affairs. MR. G. FILMON: Well, with due respect, I don't believe it should be dealt with under Corporate Affairs. That's why I am waiting for the Minister to clarify his statement. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, it's under Consumer Affairs, line 2.(c), and the member is quite correct, that we gave the Communi ty Consumer Credit Counselling a grant of $50,000 last year. I ind icated in my introduction that our grants have been increased by 9 percent so the grant for 1983-84 will be $54,500.00.

We also made a grant to the Consumers Association of Canada last year in the total of $8.8 thousand and the grant for 19 83-84 will be $9.6 thousand. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, does the department monitor what these people are doing with respect to Consumer Credit Counselling? Are they satisfied that these people have either the expertise or the resources and knowledge to provide the proper kind of credit counselling to the clients with whom they deal? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, we've met on a numb er of occasions with the executive from the Communi ty Consumer Credit Counselling.

On the basis of the 819 information that was provided to us we felt quite satisfied that they were performing a valuable service that was worthy of our further support. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, I've read and heard of complaints from people who have dealt with them. I realize they are located in the Core Area and they deal with a very specific clientele.

These are people who unfortunately are oftentimes not very well informed of their rights and responsibilities and are lacking in kn owledge of the overall system of consumer transactions and this organization, as I recall, started out really in the income tax return business. They were set up ba sed on gr ants from various levels of government to provide assistance in the preparation of income tax returns for their clients. They then convinced the Minister's predecessor, that they were capable of also being able to provide assistance to these same clients with respect to consumer credit counselling.

One of the complaints that was lodged, I think, with one of the open-line radio shows was, that they gave impr oper advice, incorrect advice. What are the qualifications of the people who are providing this consumer credit advice, under a grant from the government, to their clients? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Mr. Chairman, we don't maintain any quality control of the activities of CCCC and it's very possible that on occasion some client may feel that he or she has been given impr oper advice.

I would like to indicate, though, that the Commu nity Consumer Credit Counselling organization is aware of the volunteer cred it counselling work tha t our department is doing at Selkirk and Portage. They have access to our manuals; they know the type of training that is required of the volunteers to be assisting us, and we would hope if there are any shortfalls in their perfor ma nce, th at th ey will be impr oving their performance as a result of the program that our department has developed. I should also indicate that in 1982, I'm informed, they handled about 600 cases.

They do deal with the lower income class - about 80 percent of their clients have an annual income of less than $1 0,000 - and they are enrolling new clients in a range of anywhere from roughly 30 to 60 new clients a month. MR. G. FILMON: Are these the same people who were given a grant by the Provincial Government this year as the Community Employment Counselling Service? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I'm not aware of any such gr ant having been ma de, certai nly not from our department. The only two grants that we make to outside organizations as noted, are the Consumers Association of Canada and the CCCC. MR. G.

FILMON: I have a news release in my files, not right in front of me so I'll bring it with me this evening, from the Minister of Labour in which her department has given an organization that lists as its address the same address as the CCCC, for Community Emp loyment Counselling Service to presumably the same group of clients in their North Main location. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Well, I have no knowledge of that and if the member would being the material

Thursday, 17 March, 1983 with him later this evening, we could take a look at that and find the answers. MR. G. FILMON: If the organization, which as I said, was getting a grant for income tax preparation on behalf of its clients, is it still getting a grant for income tax preparation purposes or is this now a com bined grant for the two purposes? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: The grant that is provided by our department is only for the credit counselling aspect of their operations. MR. G.

FILMON: Is the Minister aware of whether or not other departments within the Provincial Government are pr ov iding other gr ants for the income tax preparation side of things? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I am not aware of any other department making grants to this organization. May I add something to that? I just recalled that some of their funding does come from the Federal Government and I'm told that the remainder of their funding comes from the United Way. So they have three sources of funding. MR. G.

FILMON: Is this organization providing services that are not available from the department with respect to consumer credit counselling? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: The type of credit counselling that is provided by the CCCC is not provided by our department, other than in the pilot projects at Portage la Prairie and Selkirk. MR. G. FILMON: Is this form of counselling available through other sources in the commu nity? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I would imagine that the type of service provided by the CCCC may also be provided by some church groups or community groups; possibly by some lawyers; by some financial institutions.

In terms of an organ ized organ ization that deals specifically with that as a goal, I'm not aware of any. MR. G. FILMON: In view of the fact that the Minister has indicated that the services that are being provided carry with them no sort of obligation on the part of the department to ensure that any reasonable or proper information is being provided, what was the basis on which the decision was made to fund this organization? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: I must say again that the CCCC are aware of the Consumer Counselling Program that has been developed by our department, but we're not involved in quality control of the services they're providing. On the other hand, I have not received a single letter of complaint about the CCCC. MR. G. FILMON: II the voluntary program that the Minister has referred to as being provided currently in Portage and Selkirk, I think he said, could it not be provided in Winn ipeg on the same basis and at, presumably, less cost? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: The volunteer program at Selkirk and Portage is just getting off the ground and 820 it's there to meet a need that is not being met. There are probably other areas of Manitoba that we could look at if the Selkirk and Portage projects turn out to be successful. In the meantime, that service is available to the residents of Winnipeg through the CCCC, so we wouldn't see any benefit, in a sense, in competing with an existing service. MR. G. FILMON: What is the cost of providing the voluntary program in Portage and Selkirk? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: If the Member for Tuxedo will allow us, it'll take us a few mi nutes, but we'll get that figure for you. MR. G. FILMON: While I'm waiting for that information, could the Minister indicate whether or not the fact that the Minister's predecessor was a former director of the CCCC had anything to do with the decision to fund them? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I'm just trying to establish the time frame that the Member for Tuxedo is referring to. If he's referring to the increase, certainly as a member of Cabinet, we all reviewed Estimates and he would have had an involvement. MR. G. FILMON: I was speaking, Mr.

Chairman, with respect to the decision to fund them, period, not with respect to a 9-percent increase. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: With respect to the 9- percent increase? MR. G. FILMON: No. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Or the initial funding, the $50,000; whenever that started? MR. G. FILMON: It started last year. HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: The answer to the first question about the cost for providing the Volunteer Credit Couns elling Program, I'm informed the expenditure for staff would be in the neighbourhood of $64,000 additional expenses and these are expenses for traveling; for preparation of manuals; operating expenses would be about $15, 000.00. So, we're looking at a total of around $78,000 to $79,000.00. With respect to the question of the initial funding for the CCCC, that figure would have showed up in last year's Estimates. I don't know what went on in the mind of the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs last year.

I'm unable to respond as to how that initial funding came about. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, can the Minister just clarify whether or not the money would have been in the original Estimates? As I recall, the announcement was made after the Estimates were considered so that may have been an area in which either it was done by a Special Warrant, or perhaps it was added later, or perhaps it was in the Estimates but just simply not discussed. That's why I'm calling attention to it at this time.

Thursday, 17 March, 1983 HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, I'll get that information. The staff is looking it up right now. MR. G. FILMON: I would think that the Minister's predecessor had something of a moral conflict of interest having been a former director, giving a grant of this nature to the organization, as I say, of which he was a former director. So I'm just asking this Minister if he's satisfied hims elf that it was warranted and not just done because of the involvement of the former Minister with the organization. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Just getting back to the previous question.

I am informed that the figure of $50,000 appeared in last year's Estim ates in the same way that it appears in this year's Estimates as grants. With respect to my being satisfied that the CCCC was producing what it was being funded to do, I had met with the CCCC on a numb er of occasions and on the basis of the discussions and the information provided me, I was satisfied that they were worthy of further funding. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, the report of the Deputy Minister to the Minister, which we have received, has a numb er of statements which I would like to comment upon and question. One is under the

section entitled "Complaints." A statement is made, "There was a considerable upsurge in the numb er of complaints handled by the Consumers' Bureau in 19 82." Can the Minister indicate what he attributes that upsurge in complaints to? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: That statement, " . . . a greater percentage increase than from the City of Winnipeg," I don't have the exact figures here, but that may be in response to a tighter economy. People are perhaps somewhat more cautious with their money. It may also be a reflection of some advertising that was done through newspapers and television.

We didn't monitor the im pact of that advertising, but this could very well be a reflection of that advertising. But, as I indicated before, the number of calls to the Consumers' Bureau had increased in excess of 30 percent over the pr evious year. There just ma y be more general awareness of the existence of the Consumers' Bureau in rural Manitoba as well. MR. G. FILMON: I note, Mr. Chairman, that the telephone enquiries increased as well. Is that the enquiries directly to Consumers' Bureau or is that the Citizens' Enquiry Service, or is that covered under another section? HON. J.

BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, this statement is in reference to the Consumers' Bureau only. MR. G. FILMON: Is the citizens' enquiry service still under way and what is their comp arative experience in terms of calls being handled? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: Yes, the Citizens Enquiry Bureau is the responsibility of Executive Council and I don't have that information. MR. G. FILMON: Was that tran sfered out with the Information Services Branch then because it used to be under this department? 821 HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: The answer is, yes. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b)-pa ss; 2.(c). The Member for Tuxedo. MR. G.

FILMON: The other area of grant that we haven't touched upon is the gr ant to the Consumers' Association of Canada. Can the Minister indicate to me what activities they carry on, on behalf of the department and on behalf of Manitobans? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I am informed that the purpose of the grant to the Consumers' Association of Canada is for product information only. MR. G. FILMON: I recall that the Consu mers' Association used to carry out and provide on a regular basis, studies of milk prices for instance in supermarkets and things of that nature.

There were perhaps special items that they were concerned with. Is that still ongoing? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: I am not aware as to whether the CAC carries out that specific function any longer, but I should inform the member that we meet with the Consumers' Association on a numb er of occasions during the year. They bring to our attention a number of their concerns. MR. G. FILMON: Mr. Chairman, one of the ongoing concerns of the Consumers' Association has been the unit-pricing codes on items in supermarkets.

I see an expansion of the comput erized cash registers in supermarkets throughout Winnipeg and I'm wondering whether that continues to be an area of discussion or consideration by the deps.rtment and whether or not this Minister and this government have a position on that. HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: On that matter, I should inform you that the Consumers' Association has not made representation to me on this issue, although I'm aware that it has been an issue in the past.

We are also aware that this type of merchandising has increased in a number of stores, but I can't recall, again, a single complaint on this issue in the past six months. MR. G. FILMON: Well, I am aware of one because it was referred to you by the Member for River Heights from a constituent of mine as a matter of fact, but I'm prepared to accept the Minister's suggestion that there haven't been any considerable number of complaints to him on the matter.

I'm surprised, however, that he hasn't had a complaint from his colleague, the Member for Wellington, who was absolutely determined that legislation should be enacted to prevent comp uterized cash-register checkouts at supermarkets when he was the critic for this department in opposition. Has the matter not been raised? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: No, the Mem ber for Wellington has not raised it. It may be that there may have been a letter, I just can't recall it, I am sorry. MR. G. FILl\ll ON: That's okay. Is the Minister saying that he's satisfied that the UPC system is working

Thursday, 17 March, 1983 properly with the safeguards that had been instituted under our administration, of grouping similar products on shelving, larger pricing on the shelving and all sorts of matters to try and aid the consumer in making a choice and being able to compare the product prices, that the system is working properly and he's not concerned with the effects on consumers? HON. J. BUCKLASCHUK: We are monitoring the situation. I can appreciate some of the problems that this type of merchandising brings about but as I indicated, we have not received any complaints.

Should we, for some reason, be receiving any great numb er of complaints, then we will have to take a look at this type of merchandising. MR. CHAIRMAN: The time being 4:30, I'm leaving the Chair until 8 p.m. this evening. SUPPLY - AGRIC ULTURE MR. CHAIRMAN, P. Eyler: We are here to discuss the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture. Does the Minister have some preliminary remarks to make? The Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr.

Chairman, fellow colleagues in the Assembly, it's a privi lege for me to intr oduce to this Ho use the Department of Agriculture's Spending Estimates for the year 1983-84. The Department of Agriculture's total expenditures for the coming year will amount to $53,923,400.00. The sum will cover Operating Expenses, Capital Assets, and the Income Insurance Fund. Our Estima tes this year reflect our ongoing commitment to Manitoba's agricultural sector and at the same time a re-evaluation of priorities and programs to keep pace with current conditions.

The department has been reorganized to accommodate the concerns and thrusts of our government and to expedite delivery of services to rural Manitobans. The new organization is visible in the printed Estim ates. The Department of Agriculture has reduced 10 staff years. Of those, eight were vacant and two staff years had incum bents. One of those incumb ents was from the Gunton Project and he has been redeployed into the position of assistant land representative in our Crown Lands Branch. The other individual is winding down the Vertebrate Program and we are attempting to place him into a suitable position.

In 1983, the Manitoba Department of Agriculture is addressing three major thrusts to ensure the present and future viability of agriculture in Manitoba. The first priority area is income stabilization for Manitoba's livestock producers. It must be remembered that their contribution to the provincial economy is a significant one. In the past, livestock producers have suffered from ins tability in their ind ustries and this resulted in uncertain in come s. Being at the merc y of the marketplace has also hamp ered them in their efforts to do realistic planning.

In former years and presently, some mem bers of other governments in this country and opposition members, have advocated a no-strings 822 attached handouts to beef producers. This would have served to keep the wolf from the door, but would do nothin g to come to terms with the longstanding problems in the industry. Our government's view is that it would have been shortsighted and an irresponsible use of taxpayers' money to simply hand over money to the beef cattle industry without attempting to deal with the situation th at has created the problems.

Consequent ly, we introduced a plan for Manitoba beef and I am pleased to inform members of this Assembly that approximately 4,835 contract holders are now registered in the plan. Mr. Chairman, participating producers own in excess of 250,000 beef cows in the province representing in excess of two-thirds of the beef cow herd of Manitoba. The marketing aspect of the plan has just gotten under way and I'm confident that through an innovative approach to marketing, there will soon be a greater equity in the marketplace for beef producers. Our government has a commitment to Manitoba hog producers.

A producer commi ttee has been working out details of the voluntary ongoing Hog Stabilization Program and, as members know, it was announced in this House just a short time previously, and the plan will take effect this spring. Mr. Chairman, the administration of the hog plan would be similar in nature to that of the beef plan. In other words, the plan would feature premiums jointly funded by producers and the province. The Provincial Government will guarantee the fund and cover the administration costs.

As a result of creating more equity in the marketplace for livestock producers and by stabilizing producers' incomes, we are building a new confidence in the livestock industry in our province. Another priority of the Department of Agriculture is to re-evaluate the long-term lending programs of MACC, to better meet the needs of farmers in these difficult times. We are also looking at providing assistance to farmers who, due primarily to their financial situations, are initially able to farm only on a part-time basis.

These farmers have traditionally been excluded from financial lending programs which benefit those who work in agriculture full time. In addition, we are trying to develop a program which will assist in transferring the family farm from one generation to another. The idea is that farmers will be able to transfer land to a family member even if that family member cannot afford to buy the farm outright. In effect, the retiring farmer would be guaranteed the amount of money he requires as a monthly retirement income. That is basically the intent of the program.

We have had a num ber of requests and we're certainly examining the feasibility and the possibility of instituting such a program. We've enlisted the help of both the university, lending institutions and the like, to look at the ramifications as well as people in terms of looking at the tax ramifications. The Manitoba Interest Rate Relief Program will be continued. The latest figures indicate that over 700 applications have been approved under the program and a substantial number of people have also received financial mana gement counselling.

That financial management counselling area is a crucial aspect of the program. To meet imme diate and short term credit needs, the recently announced Loans Guarantee Program has

Thursday, 17 March, 1983 doubled the amount of guaranteed operating credit available to individual farmers. The ceiling has been raised from $60,000 to $1 25,000 per farm, effective immedia tely. MACC will be admin istering the program which will encourage lending institutions to make up to $100 million worth of short term credit available between now and December 3, 1984. Mr. Speaker, it is estimated that up to 1,000 farmers will benefit from the program. The Loans Guarantee Program is aimed primarily at assisting the estimated 1,000 farmers who have had serious problems getting short term operating credit.

The third major departmental thrust is related to land and water management. In recog nition of the importance of our agricultural land resource base, we will be stepping up efforts in the area of soil management, including wind erosion control, land drainage and conservation education. Other aspects of the overall land and water policy are land use, soil survey, conservation districts and irrigation. An area of concern that we will be addressing is alternative practices in farming. We are taking an in-depth look at agricultural practices which make minimum use of chemicals.

Our agricultural land base is vitally important to the future of Manitoba. I believe we must do everything in our power to make sure that we are taking the best possible care of our land. Our government also is taking steps to ensure that there will be land in this province available for present farmers and future generations of Manitobans to buy at a reasonable price. Over the past several months, I've had an opportunity to speak to many farmers and farm organizations about the proposed Farmlands Ownership Act. and, therefore. aware that it is a controversial piece of legislation.

Most people who have any concern for the future of rural Manitoba admit that something must be done to curtail for eign ownersh ip of Manitoba farmland. However, a simple fact is that speculation in farmland causes problems for rural Manitoba and it doesn't matter if the speculator or the speculating corporation is based in Zurich or in Toronto. The essential point to remember is that we are restricting the rights of a very small portion of Canadians living outside of Manitoba in order to enhance the rights of Manitobans who genuinely wish to farm.

I'm sure members of this Assembly will have ample opportunity to debate The Farmlands Ownership Act in the days ahead. Overall. Mr. Chairman. I'm pleased with what we have achieved in preparing the department's 1983 Estimates. However. as is usually the case in difficult economic times, some very hard decisions have had to be made. It is impo ssible to cut expenditures as everyone would have us do without affecting some programs. There has been criticism of cutbacks in the 4-H Program. It's true that there will no longer be 100 percent funding for 4-H camps and conferences.

As a result, individual regions will have to repriorize or do more fund raising to retain those aspects of programs at their current levels. I might add that, in my opinion. that's not entirely a bad thing. Many schools and sports clubs throughout the province finance trips or camp programs in this manner. In general, although it has been necessary to reduce the amount of money available to the regions, 823 our Estimates have been reorganized so that each region has more autonomy and can work with local people to establish its own priorities.

In other words, we have made it possible for the regions to get the maximum benefit from the amount of money available. Mr. Chairman, it's been my privilege as Minister of Agriculture to introduce these Estimates for 1983-84. I look forward to the kind of knowledgeable comments and constructive criticism that has been the trademark of some of the oppositions throughout the history of Manitoba. I'm sure members opposite share my sincere support for Manitoba's agricultural community and would want to have a positive input into improving conditions for the farmers of this province. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. MR.

CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Chairman, I am, I would say, totally shocked at the oepning statement by the Minister of Agriculture dealing with Manitoba's No. 1 industry at a time when the economic conditions have never been worse in this province since the 1930s. Mr. Chairman, the comments in the country right today are somewhat like this: NOP times are tough times. I'll tell you, Mr. Chairman. something else in my opening comments that I want to make, is to make sure that every person in rural Manitoba knows that this government's priorities are to cut out funding for 4-H.

They would rather give the funding to the Marxist­ Leninists to do a seminar and to subsidize and to come to the Province of Manitoba. Those, Mr. Chairman, are the priorities of the Minister of Agriculture when he sits around the Cabinet table. Mr. Chairman. I, for the life of me, cannot figure out how a Minister of Agriculture, who truly represents the young family farm as he says, would cut out the 4-H funding and allow his Min ister of Economic Development, who should be as well interested in development of young people, use that money for the Marxist-Leninists. Mr.

Chairman, where was the Minister of Agriculture? Mr. Chairman, this is the second set of Estimates that we have seen this particular Minister of Agriculture bring to this Assembly and make excuses for his i11ability to deal with the most severe economic times that this farm communi ty has seen in the history of this province since the 1930s. What we are seeing happening in the Province of Manitoba tonight in my very constituency, Mr.

Chairman, is the man who is on a hunger strike in Ontario, meeting with some of the constituents in the southwest corner of the province to talk about the inaction of government; to deal with the inaction of not only the Federal Government but, as well, the inaction of the Provincial Government. If we remember correctly, Mr. Chairman, and I won't quote precisely from it, but if we remember what the election promise of the New Democratic Party was, and it's straight by the Premier's picture, was that no farmer, no person in Manitoba would lose their home due to high interest rates.

That was a signed pledge and promise by the Premier of this province and here is the Minister of Agriculture now corning in, making excuses for his inability to deal with a situation he told us that we wouldn't have to deal with in this province.

Thursday, 17 March, 1983 Mr. Chairman, the Minister outlines three particular areas and I will try and deal not so much specifically with them but in a general way and I want to cover it as we deal with it. As well, Mr. Chairman, I am sure that everyone of my caucus colleagues feel the imp act or the lack of action from this government as they have, in fact, experienced two years of this particular Minister of Agriculture in the New Democratic Party. Mr.

Chairman, never before have they had so many people calling them, pleading with them, trying to get them to either phone the banks or to do something to intervene in a forced bankruptcy or in a financial situation. Never have I, Mr. Chairman, had so many people call me saying that we are under extremely difficult conditions; we're being forced out of business; who've contacted either the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation or the Federal Credit Corporation or our banks, and we are running into a totally blank wall.

We're coming out of a period of the highest interest rates in the recent economic times; something, Mr. Chairman, that he was part of a promise that said he would prevent them from being a part of. Mr. Chairman, Statistics Canada came out with figures this last year that said, Manitoba bankruptcies, farm bankruptcies, for the first nine-month period were up 380 percent. Manitoba led the way in Canada, Mr. Chairman, for bankruptcies. That is the record that the Minister of Agriculture - what is his constituency? St. George, that's right.

He's not representing the Interlake, because I know a lot of good Interlake people, and he isn't their representative because he doesn't believe what he speaks about, Mr. Chairman. I've had a lot of calls from the Interlake and he is not their representative. Mr.

Chairman, that is the kind of a record that the New Democratic Party under Howard Pawley and the Minister of Agriculture, Bill Uruski, are going to have to face in the history books of this country, and I want to make sure, that they're solidly there and that the people of this country know that Manitoba led the way in bankruptcies under his admini stration, 380 percent increase. That was a prom ise tha t he gave produc ers of this provi nce wouldn't happen. One of his priorities, Mr.

Chairman, and he talks about the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation - well, thank good ness for the years of the Duff Roblin government and Sterling Lyon. The Member for Lac du Bonnet says, "Not a bad government," and I'm sure that the majority of people would agree with that. That government. Mr. Chairman, introduced the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation. Yes, they introduced the Manitoba Agricultural Credit Corporation; a tool which was introduced to truly help the family farms and it did, Mr.

Chairman, and was used during the term of office of the Sch reyer years to nationalize or to turn the farms into a state farm program, redirected in our term of office so that it would again help the farm communi ty through the purchasing of land, through debt consolidation; the same program that he is now making so much about having $100 million put in, was a part of that program. It only had a different limit on the amount of it and there weren't many farmers using it, Mr.

Chairman, because it really isn't going to help those people who are in dire straits or in extremely difficult conditions because from the Minister's own press release, I will quote one line. He said, guarantees under this program, $100 million, will be strictly limited to operating credit and will not be used to cover existing loans and arrears. How many farmers in Manitoba don't have existing loans and arrears, Mr. Chairman? I ask that question of the Minister and would hope that he would be able to give me the kinds of num bers that we're going to need during this Estimate process. So what he is saying, Mr.

Chairman, is that he has $100 million in these Estimates that isn't going to get used. He says 1,000 people. I would challenge him, Mr. Chairman, to make 1,000 people eligible for that. He will have to work pretty hard to do it. Yesterday, I asked him a question; how many people have MACC turned down? He wouldn't give me the answer. We want to know how many people have been rejected on requests of credit either for their Interest Rate Relief Program, and that's another issue, Mr. Chairman.

Let's talk about the Interest Rate Relief Program that was so highly touted last year, so highly touted that it was going to help the thousands of farmers. I think, and I stand to be corrected and then we will have to look back at Hansard, that he projected there would be at least 1,000 or some 2,000 farmers . A MEMBER: 700 in 2 years. l\ll R. J. DOWNEY: . . . oh, we'll get into the numb ers later but I think, Mr. Chairman, that is such a small percentage. Those same people are probably in equally as bad a trouble today or even worse.

So, as his admini stration progesses, the proof of his programs is going to come onto his desk and it's not going to be very successful, Mr. Chairman. It's not very successful. 824 Mr. Chairman, the Min ister, of course is now going around touting very highly his recent Beef Income Assurance Program.

In fact, that's one of his major th rusts, even though th ere had been under our administration a pretty good and well-received Hog Income Stabilization Program that was not so heavily funded on behalf of the producers, but a more equal sharing of the support of that program with the initial grant, with the loan guarantee. Mr. Chairman, it wasn't patchwork the Minister refers to.

It was a good, solid program and the Minister had to tinker around with it so that now he could take the responsibility off his back, put it onto the hog producers' backs, and it's they who are going to have to pay the price of the program and very little support from this Minister of Agriculture. Again, he's going to have to bear the brunt of the results of that program. I don't mind standing here bearing he brunt of the program that he axed because 80 percent of the hogs in this province were in that program; 70 percent of the producers were participants in that.

That's not a bad number of people to have part of a Department of Agriculture program, Mr. Chairman. I could go back and talk about emergency programs under the drought conditions or the flood. We didn't have many people that lost farms or businesses because we were here, my colleagues, the mem bers of the Treasury Bench, and the caucus, suppor ted good and meaningful programs and yes, Mr. Chairman, they were one-time pay outs. They wer en't the hands of government giving it with one hand and taking their

Thursday, 17 March, 1983 freedom away with the other . They were since re programs to help farmers in an extremely difficult time. The same, and I'll talk about the beef income assurance approach that we felt probably would have worked at the time they were in extreme need, because you want to remember that we had just gone through a period of time when we cleaned up one of the worst messes in Beef Income Assurance Program that was hung on from the Minister of the last administration under the NDP Government; one of the worst programs that we have ever seen, Mr. Chairman, and that had to be cleaned up and we did.

Except, finally the Minister couldn't deal with it, so he wrote off $400,000.00. Well, he should pay back the money to those people probably, who in fact did live up to their commitments. He should reconsider what he has done because I think he is very vulnerable. He's put the government in a vulnerable place where legal action could actually be put against the Department of Agriculture for his actions, Mr. Chairman, in the way in which he handled the final days of that program. He could be putting the province in a very difficult legal position if farmers really wanted to take him to task in a court of law.

The Beef Income Assurance Program, Mr. Chairman, is of course the principle that you, in giving farmers support, you take away freedom of marketing, you take away funds from those producers so that you ask the government now to control a portion of their income through the premiums that they pay. This, Mr. Chairman, is a concept that this Minister of Agriculture has continually wanted to be a part of, is the beef industry. The NDP believe they should control the beef industry, not the beef pr oducers thems elves and it's demonstrated.

At a later time in the Estimates, we will get into it in detail to some of the regulations that have been put in place by this administration to, in fact, control the beef industry. You know, there are again some legal questions, Mr. Chairman, because as I understand The Natural Products Marketing Act, which he says gives him the authority to handle the regulated product, I understand that 60 percent of the producers have to vote in favour of a marketing scheme under The Natural Products Marketing Act.

I think there's a legal question if it came right down to the nitty gritty of whether or not he can make this beef program or the producers live up to what he's expecting he wants them to do but there really is a legal problem with the program that he has introduced. I really do question it and he may have to bring in legislation to amend The Natural Products Marketing Act to back up what he has already got running out in the country.

That is a fairly im portant legal question, because I would hope that he knows where he's at with this particular thing because he has gotten hims elf a tiger by the tail, a bull by the horns; and I'll tell you, it will get him in the beefsteak if he's not careful; and I'll tell you, that's right where he's at. The costs to producers today to participate in that particular program are unconscionable, Mr. Chairman.

The costs to the producers today, as opposed to what we recommended of putting a $50 per head payment on a one-time basis, wouldn't have added all the admini stration costs; we wouldn't have had to have a Beef Commission that charges 1 percent of every animal it sold through that commission, 1 percent, and I'll tell you what 1 percent amounts to. Yes, you know what 825 it amounts to, $8 on an $800 steer. The 1 percent is the cost of operating the commission. The Minister doesn't even know what 1 percent means.

The fee is .5 percent when it was - the Minister, and I'll put it on the record, said that the marketing is .5 percent. Mr. Chairman, I will challenge the Minister to correct what he is now charging to the beef producers because, as I understand the program, and I will refer to a document which was put out by the Beef Commission -I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman, I owe an apology to the Minister - yes, the question is .5 percent - the answer is. The additional charge was an assembly fee of $7.50, is where the other figure came from.

That's where the additional cost was coming from, which in fact is about 1 percent on an $800 animal and then the assembly fees plus the .5 percent, so I do apologize to the Minister because I, in fact, had misread the actual charge. I don't mind doing that because it does correct it in my mind and I have had some concerns about it. Mr. Chairman, let us deal with the principle of controlled marketing as opposed to what we wanted to do.

I believe that the figures that we had available to us would spend some $12 -$14 million, would have handled the $50 or $40 per head pay out on a one­ ti me basis, and then work out with the Federal Government a program that was more acceptable on a national basis, or at least stay out of the lives of the farm communit y, Mr. Chairman. That is the principle that we subscribe to, but this Minister is not prepared to do that. I touched briefly on the Interest Rate Relief Program which is again demonstrated to be a failure in the farm commun ity.

The Minister has seen fit, at a time when he won't lower the Manitoba Agricultur e Credit Corporation interest rates from 18 percent to a lower figure and help those individuals who are now trapped with those high interest rates, and at the same time he says he's continuing on with his Int erest Rate Relief Program. I can't for the life of me figure out, on one hand, why he's got an Int erest Rate Relief Program, and, on the other hand, he won't give those people who are already trapped by high interest rates the same kind of a break through the Credit Corporation. He's inconsistent, Mr.

Chairman, and I don't believe that it will wash in the long term. Mr. Chairman, the Minister, at the same time as he's got a Beef Support Program, has seen fit to increase the Crown land leases, the cost of the Crown land leases from 30 to 70 percent increase on some lands. There is a range of from 30 to 70 percent, Mr. Chairman. Those are figures that have been provided to me by - (I nterjection) - Mr. Chairman, it's the Minister who has to answer and repudiate the allegations. If he can do it, fine, I will back off; but if he can't, then it stays on the record, Mr. Chairman.

The Minister has in fact on one hand put funds into a Beef Stabilization Program and on the other hand says, we're going to soak it to you on the charges for the Crown lands that you're using to produce those livestock. Mr. Chairman, I can't for the life of me figure out what the Minister is trying to prove in doing that. Mr. Chairman, last year, for the second consecutive year, we saw net incomes for farmers decrease - 8 percent decrease for 1981 and a 6 percent decrease for 19 82. I believe it's a clear example of thi s administration's failure to deal with the basic problems

Thursday, 17 March, 1983 of high expenses which are partly incurred by the Government of Manitoba, and low returns which were promised not to happen during this government's administration. Mr. Chairman, I will deal just briefly - but not because I'm dealing with it briefly because it isn't im portant - with the Estimate Book which has been tabled.

It's very interesting to note in the Agriculture Estimates, as one goes through them in a general way, that we now have before us a Minister of Agriculture who stands up and espouses the imp ortance of the family farm, how important the agriculture industry is, agriculture farmers. People are faced with a 6.1 percent decrease in their income on a net basis; and you look at the Estimate Book, Mr. Chairman, and what do you see? You go through the different Salaries line-by-line.

All the civil servants have an incr ease, a substantial increase, as he agreed to with his colleagues to increase them on the normal basis. He's part of that increase. Every other part of the - or almos t every other department, Mr. Chairman, there has been a reduction. The actual provision of services by the agricultural representatives, by the commissions, or by anything that has to do with the actual resource base, to help the resource base, has been reduced. The only increases in the Minister of Agriculture's budget have been the wages of the people that work for him; when at the same time, Mr.

Chairman, the farmers have been decreasing their net returns. How can he justify going to a farm meeting, sitting in the Minister of Agriculture's office, when the farmers of this province, the people that are carrying the weight of producing food for this nation, for over 50 percent of the jobs of the people of Manitoba, he is reducing the actual service that the Department of Agriculture is giving them and increasing the wages of those people that are working for him, Mr. Chairman. A MEMBER: Do you want it both ways? MR. J. DOWNEY: Do I want it both ways? No, Mr. Chairman, I don't want it both ways.

I want the farm com muni ty looked after and, Mr. Chairman, that isn't happening. It's the Minister of Agriculture that wants it both ways. He says, listen to my leader. I gave him an example of where he could save mo ney. He didn't have to give money to the Marxists-Leninists and take it away from the 4-H kids in this province, Mr. Chairman. If there isn't a better example than that, I don't know where it is. Tell me, Mr. Chairman. That's what !'m telling him.

I'm saying he could have done a better job in wage negotiations and considered reducing salaries and kept at least the service equal to the farm commun ity, but he didn't do that. He saw fit, Mr. Chairman, to sell the farmers down the drain is what he's doing. That's what this Minister of Agriculture is doing, and he can go it through ii line-by-line, and it's the service, it's the backup that the farmers have depended upon for research, for ali those things that they depend on governme