Manitoba Hansard — Sitting 13B (39th Legislature, 2nd Session)

39-2-13b

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LX No. 13B – 1:30 p.m., Thursday, December 6, 2007 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon. Concordia N.D.P.

DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. The Pas N.D.P. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St.

Johns N.D.P. MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MALOWAY, Jim Elmwood N.D.P. MARCELINO, Flor Wellington N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin Southdale N.D.P.

SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P. STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

441 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Thursday, December 6, 2007 The House met at 1:30 p.m. ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 14–The Criminal Property Forfeiture Amendment Act Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Mr. Speaker, I'd like to move, seconded by the Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger), that Bill 14, The Criminal Property Forfeiture Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la confiscation de biens obtenus ou utilisés criminelle- ment, be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I'm very pleased to introduce this bill to the Legislature, which is following 15 months of consultation by an expert in criminal and gang-related matters, and following the process now established in British Columbia of having an internal departmental division doing criminal property forfeiture rather than the police, as well as other amendments to make the act effective. The bill is based on extensive consultation.

I look forward to the support of all members in the ongoing fight against organized crime. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 215–The Public Schools Amendment Act (Property Development) Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): I move, seconded by the Member for Russell (Mr. Derkach), that Bill 215, The Public Schools Amendment Act (Property Development), be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Schuler: Mr. Speaker, this is the second time this bill has been introduced into the House.

It deals with school boards and it clarifies that school boards are not mandated to enter into property development, and specifically deals with the Seven Oaks School Division and the fiasco that took place there with property development. This clarifies the roles and duties of the board. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] Bill 221–The Liquor Control Amendment Act (Liquor Vendor Siting) Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): I move, seconded by the Member for Turtle Mount ain (Mr.

Cullen), that Bill 221, The Liquor Control Amendment Act (Liquor Vendor Siting); Loi modifiant la

Loi sur la réglementation des alcools (établissement des vendeurs d'alcools), be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mrs. Taillieu: Mr. Speaker, this bill allows for the siting of a liquor vendor within 10 kilometres of another liquor vendor within the 30-kilometre radius of the city of Winnipeg provided that it is in another municipality, which would allow the unique situation in Headingley where the st ore is 10.8 kilometres one route and 9.2 the other, averaging out to 10. It is a very unique situation in the province. This would allow a provision which would allow them to be a vendor. Mr.

Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] PETITIONS Waverley West–New School Construction Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. These are the reasons for this petition: The government has taken upon itself to develop Waverley West, a suburb that will eventually be the size of Brandon, without any funding for new schools in this part of Winnipeg. This will ultimately put a strain on other schools in the Pembina Trails School Division.

With the realignment of catchment areas, caused by this lack of funding, families will be required to move their children from one school to another. Disruption for children attending southwest Winnipeg schools could be harmful for their education and present a di fficult and unnecessary change for these children and their families.

442 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 2007 We petition the Manitoba Legislative Assembly as follows: To urge the Minister of Education (Mr. Bjornson) and the Premier (Mr. Doer) to consider setting aside land and funds to construct new schools to accommodate the needs of the new provincial government development of Waverley West to allow kids attending schools in the southwest area of Winnipeg to remain in existing schools located closer to home. Signed by Jeff Scott, Carol Scott, Sharmaine Silver and many, many others. Provincial Nominee Program Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr.

Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: Immigration is critically important to the future of our province, and the 1998 federal Provincial Nominee Program is the best immigration program that Manitoba has ever had. The current government needs to recognize that the backlog in processing PNP applications is causing additional stress and anxiety for would-be immigrants and their family and friends here in Manitoba.

The current government needs to recognize the unfairness in its current policy on who qualifies to be an applicant, more specifically, by not allowing professionals such as health-care workers to be able to apply for PNP certificates in the same way a computer technician would be able to. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Premier (Mr. Doer) and his government to recognize and acknowledge how important immigration is to our province by improving and strengthening the Provincial Nominee Program. Mr. Speaker, this is signed by L. Saul, M. Austen, T.

Tod and many other fine Manitobans. COMMITTEE REPORTS Standing Committee on Crown Corporations Second Report Mr. Daryl Reid (Chairperson): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the Second Report of the Standing Committee on Crown Corporations. Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): Your Standing Committee on Crown Corporations presents the following as its Second Report. Mr. Speaker: Dispense? Some Honourable Members: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense.

Meetings Your committee met on the following occasions: Monday, October 17, 2005 (3rd Session–38th Legislature) Wednesday, December 5, 2007 All meetings were held in Room 255 of the Legislative Building.

Matters under Consideration The Annual Report of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission for the year ended March 31, 2004 The Annual Report of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission for the year ended March 31, 2005 The Annual Report of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission for the year ended March 31, 2006 The Annual Report of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission for the year ended March 31, 2007 Committee Membership Committee Membership for the October 17, 2005, meeting: Mr. Aglugub Ms. Brick (Chairperson) Mr. Cullen Mr. Dewar Mr. Faurschou Ms. Irvin-Ross (Vice-Chairperson) Mr. Maguire Mr. Maloway Mr.

Schellenberg Mr. Schuler Hon. Mr. Smith

December 6, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 443 Committee Membership for the December 5, 2007, meeting: Mr. Borotsik Ms. Brick Mr. Dewar Mr. Graydon Ms. Howard Mr. Maguire Ms. Marcelino Mr. Reid (Chairperson) Mr. Saran Hon. Mr. Selinger Mrs. Taillieu Your committee elected Ms. Marcelino as the Vice- Chairperson.

Officials Speaking on Record at the October 17, 2005, meeting: Don Lussier, President and CEO Carmen Neufeld, Chair, MLCC Board of Commissioners Officials Speaking on Record at the December 5, 2007, meeting: Don Lussier, President and CEO Carmen Neufeld, Chair, MLCC Board of Commissioners Reports Considered and Passed Your committee considered and passed the following report as presented: The Annual Report of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission for the year ended March 31, 2004 Reports Considered but not Passed Your committee considered the following reports but did not pass them: The Annual Report of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission for the year ended March 31, 2005 The Annual Report of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission for the year ended March 31, 2006 The Annual Report of the Manitoba Liquor Control Commission for the year ended March 31, 2007 Mr.

Reid: I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Wellington (Ms. Marcelino), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): I'm pleased to provide for the House the '06-07 Annual Report of the Manitoba Product Stewardship Corporation. * (13:40) MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS National Day of Remembrance and Action on Violence against Women Hon. Nancy Allan (Min ister of Labour and Immigration): Mr. Speaker, I have a ministerial statement for the House.

December 6, 1989, was a horrifying day as Canadians learned of the mass shooting of 14 female students at l'École polyte chnique in Montréal. These young women were murdered by a man who resented them simply because they were females aspiring to become engineers. Eighteen years later we are still shaken by the senselessness of that tragic event. The anniversary of the Montréal massacre has become a national day of mourning to pay homage to these young victims.

At the Manitoba Women's Advisory Council sunrise memorial at the Legislature this morning, and at other events taking place throughout our province today, Manitobans will gather to remember these women and to reflect on the complex issue of violence against women. Sadly, in the past year, 13 Manitoba women have died in acts of violence.

We also honour their memories today: Lavina Bradburn, Roxanne Fernando, Diane Gloria Paul, Crystal Saunders, Ernestine Delilah Pascal, Aynsley Aurora Kinch, Chrissy Hall, Samantha Zeemel, Fonessa Bruyere, Myrna Lynn Wabash, Charlene Ward, Arabella Garson and a woman whose name is not being released to protect the identity of the young family member charged in the homicide. We must always remember December 6, as a means of acknowledging our past while steadily moving toward our goal of eliminating violence against women. This day is a day of courage and renewed hope for the present and our future.

Our government is committed to supporting innovative and advanced approaches to protecting women from violence. We must continue to be diligent in our efforts to increase women's equality.

444 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 2007 Mr. Speaker, I would ask that following the statements by my colleagues, we join together in a moment of silence. Thank you. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank the minister for her statement. Today marks a tragedy that we will not and dare not forget. On December 6, 1989, 14 young women lost their lives to an enraged gunman. Marc Lepine targeted the female engineering students of Montréal's l'École polytechnique for crimes imagined in his sick mind. They died for no other reason than his hatred of women.

On December 6, Canada remembers this horrific and senseless act of viol ence against women. This morning, I was pleased to join with the Leader of the Official Opposition (Mr. McFadyen), the Member for Pembina (Mr. Dyck), and other members from this Legislature as we gathered at a sunrise memorial to commemorate and grieve for the women lost in the Montréal massacre. It is also time to acknowledge women who have suffered or continue to suffer as a result of gender- based violence.

But we take comfort in the fact that we in this House, regardless of political affiliation or gender, are committed to stop violence against women. Whether a random act of violence or abuse within the home, we have a responsibility to do everything in our power to prevent such brutality. In the memory of those women and in the memory of every victim of violence or abuse, we must push forward. A loss of any life is a tragedy. Too many women and children endure the loss of personal safety and dignity in despair. No one deserves such a fate.

Violence and abuse of women and children is an injustice and will not be tolerated. Today we renew that promise. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): I ask leave to speak to the minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: Leave has been granted. Mr. Gerrard: Mr. Speaker, I was pleased to join other MLAs this morning at the sunrise ceremony here in the Legislature to remember the tragic events of 1989 and the death, the murder, of 14 young women at l'École polytechnique.

The event has, I think, a terrible meaning to all of us. It has particular meaning to me because I have had the chance to visit the L'École polytechnique and talk with students and with staff there in the mid- '90s, and certainly, it is something that we need to remember not only today, but the whole year. Thirteen women have died in Manitoba from violence in the last year, and there may be others who are not on the list for a variety of reasons. That is far too many. We cannot continue to have this kind of violence in Manitoba. This is not the kind of province and society that all of us believe in.

It is a challenge to us to do far better than we have done. It is a challenge to us to act in the coming year in ways that will dramatically reduce the number of deaths of women from violence, the number of acts of violence against women. It is a cause that we all need to dedicate ourselves to. Mr. Speaker: Is there agreement for a moment of silence? [Agreed] Will you please rise for a moment of silence. A moment of silence was observed. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, I'd like to draw the attention of honourable members to the Speaker's Gallery where we have with us today Adam Verwymeren, from Montreal and Trish Verwymeren, from Winnipeg. Also in the public gallery we have from Neepawa Area Collegiate 20 grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Troy Brister. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Briese). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you all here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Eastern Manitoba Boreal Forest Cutting for Highway Construction Mr.

Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr. Speaker, there's an application currently before the Department of Conservation, and the proponent of this application wants to cut thousands of trees through the eastern Manitoba boreal forest to construct a new winter road connection between the communities of

December 6, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 445 Norway House and Poplar Ri ver, a distance of more than 100 kilometres through the eastern boreal forest. The application says, and I quote, the applied-for corridor is two kilometres wi de. In forested parts of the corridor, a 30- to 60-metre wide right of way is cleared to allow for proper sight lines. Mr. Speaker, the proposal invites comments respecting this desire to cu t through the boreal forest by December 14, 2007, which is eight days from today.

I want to ask the Premier: How many American protesters have signed up to date to fight this assault on the eastern boreal forest? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I'll take the question as notice. Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure what the Premier said, but there's not been a single protester. Not a single applicant has filed anything with the Department of Conservation to try to stop this cut through the eastern boreal forest.

The proponent is none other than the minister of highways who–and we all recall the minister of highways saying to the former Member for Emerson, get your birdbath out of the way because the highways are coming through. Now he's telling the people of eastern Manitoba, get those trees out of the way because the highway is coming through. If no American protesters have signed up by eight days from today, Mr. Speaker, I want to ask the Premier: Will he go down and fight his highway minister's attempt to cut through the eastern boreal forest? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, two years ago, based on what we believe is somewhat climate change related, we couldn't even get–I believe it was two years ago– we couldn't get materials into Norway House. We had highways people and Conservation people and First Nations people working on alternative winter roads. I think you will notice in our Speech from the Throne this year, and if you've looked in past years, we've said we have to move our winter roads to all- season roads. Mr.

Speaker, I know the member opposite does not believe that Poplar River or Norway House or Island Lake or Berens River or Bloodvein should have any money in capital for highways. He took that position in Arthur-Virden. I know, Mr. Speaker, they hardly spent a cent on northern Manitoba roads. We have a serious issue where we want to look at the welfare of the people in those areas, those First Nati on people in those areas, in terms of food costs, in terms of medical access, in terms of other issues of sustainability. Members opposite were going to take that money and reallocate it to Arthur-Virden.

We believe in governing for all of Manitoba, including the people that live on the east side of Lake Manitoba. * (13:50) Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, the Premier is completely wrong with the information he's put on the record. I've travelled to the Island Lake communities. I've said to those communities we support the construction of better transportation links to those communities to be sure that we can get food and supplies into remote communities throughout Manitoba.

We simply make the point, the ridiculousness of the position that he has adopted about these phantom American protesters coming to block hydro line, when his own highways minister has a proposal on the books to cut through the very same forest, a 60-metre-wide cut through the boreal forest. Not a single protester has registered to date.

Now I know that the Premier would never go ahead with a decision to throw away hundreds of millions of dollars, a decision to compromise the reliability of our hydro grid, a decision to deny people on the eastern part of our province, some of the poorest in Canada, the opportunity for economic development. I know he will have done his homework. So will he table today the reams of correspondence that presum ably he has received to date from these American protesters who are going to block sales? Xcel Energy, our biggest customer, has said they're not concerned about where the line goes.

The eastern communities support it, Mr. Speaker. The UNESCO experts agree with it. Every reasonable person in the province agrees with the eastern line to save hundreds of millions, to provide economic opportunities to the east, and to ensure a reliable power system. So, if the Premier is going to compromise all of those things and disregard all those people, just give us one name of an American protester who's going to stop hydro sales to the United States. Mr. Doer: Mr. Speaker, Sophia from Poplar River is against the transmission line. She has won international recognition.

I am sure that if it was the Leader of the Opposition before the legislative committee in Minnesota or, Sophia–actually, I think

446 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 2007 Sophia would knock it out of the park, relative to the position the member opposite took. There are people that live in the east side–we had over 80 meetings–that believe strongly in the position we're taking. I also want to point out, Mr. Speaker, that there was a report out yesterday, or two days ago, from the environmental– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: –talking about the billions of dollars of value of the undisturbed boreal forest in north- western Ontario and in Manitoba.

It actually says that this is an international issue, the protection and preservation of the intact boreal forest. It talks about the preservation of the endangered woodland caribou. It talks about that those areas– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr.

Doer: It has a similar assessment to the Nature Conservancy of Canada, to the environment Eco- Network of Manitoba, to Sophia that lives in Poplar River, and to many other youth that are meeting in the Island Lake area, talking–and we've listened to a lot of the youth that get that eco-tourism and local roads for that, for winter, are consistent with the eco- tourism, but the obvious issue of an undisturbed boreal forest is serious. While members opposite, they opposed Limestone. In opposition they said– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. The honourable First Minister has the floor. Mr.

Doer: They opposed Limestone. They said it was going to cost– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: They said it would cost millions of dollars. It's meant that we've had the lowest hydro rates. We've taken the 87 percent debt equity that members bequeathed to us. We've lowered it to under 80 percent, Mr. Speaker. We had a credit upgrade again today because we're making the right decisions for Manitoba. They haven't asked any economic questions because they don't have any. Mr. Speaker, the best option that they felt they could take was the status quo, do nothing.

We're going to be courageous and do the right thing for the future of Manitoba, and that's why we're going ahead. Manitoba Hydro Power Line Location on West Side Mr. Cliff Cullen (Turtle Mountain): Mr. Speaker, my question today is intended to clear the air about

article usage. Or, in other words, it's a grade school grammar lesson. Purdue University defines

article usage as follows: the English language has two types of articles; definite, the; and indefinite, a or an. Use of articles depends on whether you're referring to any member of a group or to a specific member. Mr. Speaker, the Premier maintains that we are constantly using the definite

article in debating bipole 3, but we're actually using the indefinite article. In other words, we 're looking for the reason, but not just the reason, but for a or any reason for this daffy detour. Mr. Speaker, will the minister provide a or any valid reason why we should waste $1.5 billion on the daffy detour? Hon. Greg Selinger (Min ister charged with the administration of Th e Manitoba Hydro Act): Actually, I quite enjoyed the member's question.

I'm glad to see that he's brushing up on his grammar, because there have been three definite risks that we're managing in the Hydro file with respect to the east-side west line. The first definite risk that we're managing is the reliability risk. For 20 years Manitoba Hydro has been saying we need additional transmission capacity. We're acting on that. The second definite risk that we're managing is the risk of losing the UNESCO World Heritage designation through a project that will have very definite consequences for the environment on the east side in terms of the intact boreal forest.

The third definite risk we're managing is the risk to customers, where we have 6 to $800 million at risk every year. Three definite articles, three risks, three reasons the members opposite are wrong. Mr. Cullen: Mr. Speaker, the minister is wrong on three accounts. Three strikes and you're out. On many occasions this Premier (Mr. Doer) stated that we are looking for the reason for the daffy detour. In today's Free Press, h e s a y s t h a t t h e UNESCO site is not the reason for the daffy detour. Mr.

Speaker, we know the UNESCO excuse is not the reason for the daffy detour because Jim Collinson says that argument is not based on fact.

December 6, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 447 I would like to know, using the indefinite article, if the minister can provide a or any American environmentalist other than Bobby Kennedy who has stated they protest bipole 3, or is Bobby the only one? Mr. Selinger: To follow along in the metaphor of use of the English language, our proposal is to go forward to the future. We do not want to use the past tense and go backwards like the members opposite. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, when it comes to people that support or do not support the line, the members opposite, they would like to know specifically who's opposed to the line. Well, I can tell you, 48 percent of Manitobans voted for the mandate we put in front of them. The members opposite did not get that level of support. The election was a definitive, a definitive vote, on the future of Manitoba, not going to the past. Child Welfare System Policy Changes Mr. Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, we've asked several questions on what we would believe is one of the most important issues and most important examples of government mismanagement currently before the Province today, and that's with respect to the management of our Child and Family Services system. In June of 1998, the Premier who was then Leader of the Opposition stood in this Chamber and declared, and I quote, "it is this Premier who is responsible for the care and custody of children under The Child and Family Services Act. He cannot wash his hands of his respon sibility." That's what he said in 1998.

Why today will he not provide clear direction to front-line workers that safety comes ahead of everything else? Why is he washing his hands of this responsibility? Why is he not acknowledging that his experiment has failed? Why won't he do the right thing for the protection of Manitoba children? Or will he take personal responsibility for the death of every child that occurs from this day forward in the Child and Family Services, Mr. Speaker? * (14:00) Hon. Gord Mackintosh (Minister of Family Services and Housing): Mr.

Speaker, it is, of course, the responsibility of all Manitobans to be vigilant in the best interests of our children. I was very pleased to attend the proclamation of The Healthy Child Manitoba Act this morning. In terms of the foundations of the child protection system, it is, in fact, the clear legislative direction and mandate of child protection. That should be self-evident to members opposite, but just so they are reminded, this Legislature in 2002 passed legislation unanimously. The first thing it said in there was,

whereas the health, safety of children is of paramount concern to all Manitobans. That's the position of this House and that's why we're acting with Changes for Children– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, I'd like the Premier (Mr. Doer) to stand up and respond to this question. The question was whether he would do what he said was the job of the Premier back in 1998, when he was opposition leader. It's clear when you're talking to front-line workers that there is a lack of clarity around the issues of how decisions are made. There's a clear problem with the act.

However it was adopted in the past, the fact is that recent history has shown it isn't working. We have Gage Guimond; we have Phoenix Sinclair. We have others to prove it isn't working. Will the Premier stand up and accept responsibility? Mr. Mackintosh: Mr. Speaker, we are all responsible. We will be responsible where there are shortcomings in systems that are put in place.

Indeed, there will be inquiries and there are checks and balances like no other jurisdiction in place in Manitoba to make sure that when children die, that we learn, that we can move on, and we can put in place checks and balances to better protect the vulnerable. But I remind members opposite; I ask them this question: When it comes to responsibility and accountability, what do the years 1993, 1994, 1996 and 1999 have in common? Those are the years, Mr. Speaker, the opposition, when they had their hands on the levers of power, cut foster rates. That's their responsibility.

Environmental Sustainability Report Government's Response Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): I'm glad that the Premier (Mr. Doer) refe rred to the Canadian Environmental Sustainability Indicators report that came out today, but before he has a chance to pat himself on the back, which he likes to do so often, Mr. Speaker, let me maybe advise him of the horrible

448 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 2007 record that comes forward in this report. The report suggests that more than half of Manitoba's major rivers regularly fail pollution tests. The NDP government received a failing grade on the protection of parks and natural areas. Mr. Speaker, is the Premier now saying that he is proud of his abysmal record? Because I know that we're not, and nor are the rest of Manitobans. Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): This coming, of course, Mr. Speaker, from the very member who quoted Marge Simpson as a scientific expert the other day in this House.

The other thing I find strange, when she talks about water protection and pollution in the waterways, is she's sitting right next to a member who has said he would scrap any of the regulations when he was in Brandon. I guess he's part right because that was his Brandon-out-of- the-city-of-Winnipeg position. In the House here, he pretends like he's supportive of it. So we've got to take this with a grain of salt. Greenhouse Gas Emission Reduction Targets Mrs. Heather Stefanson (Tuxedo): Mr. Speaker, this coming from the member that actually takes advice from Marge Simpson.

All I can say is pass the Beano, because there's nothing but a bunch of gassy responses coming from members opposite. And speaking of gassy, something is missing from–I noticed again–the Orde r Paper and that is the government's greenhouse gas legislation. The Premier (Mr. Doer) says the key is to have a target to succeed. Well, I guess that's pretty easy when the target to reach is the easiest target out there. Mr.

Speaker, will the minister admit today that the reason the climate-change legislation isn't on the Order Paper is because, not only is this government ashamed of its measly reduction target, but they know full well they are nowhere near meeting their Kyoto commitment. Maybe Marge Simpson is proud of the aim-so-low strategy, but we're not and nor are the rest of Manitobans. Hon. Stan Struthers (Min ister of Conservation): Again, Mr.

Speaker, this coming from a group of people who stood up and defended the federal minister who spoke about aspirational goals and intensity targets and other loopholes, that govern- ments should not be using to try to soften their approach to Kyoto and soften their approach to greenhouse gases. I'll put our action up against their rhetoric any day. Health Care Treatment of Specific Patient Mr. Blaine Pedersen (Carman): Mr. Speaker, Manitobans who have fallen ill and need to visit the hospital expect to be treated with respect and dignity. Mr.

Ross Phillips was recently sent via ambulance from Boundary Trails to Health Sciences Centre. Because he arrived via ambulance, he did not have any clothes or shoes with him. Instead of sending him home via ambulance as requested by his family, Mr. Phillips was sent home wrapped in a sheet, with paper slippers, in a taxi, on a cold rainy night in October. Is this how the NDP has directed hospitals to treat patients? Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): No, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Pedersen: Mr. Speaker, this kind of treatment is deplorable. Mr. Phillips is a 90-year-old war veteran.

He fought on the front lines in World War II, and that's how this government thanks him, by denying him any dignity or respect, sending him home from a hospital in a taxi, wrapped in a sheet, with paper slippers. I ask the Minister of Health: Why has she allowed our war veterans to be treated in such a despicable way? Ms. Oswald: Clearly, such a protocol is wholly unacceptable. We know that 99.999 percent of the staff that are working in hospitals work very hard and diligently every single day and treat people with dignity and respect, and we owe them a debt of gratitude.

I commit to the member opposite that when provided with the details from the member, we'll investigate and ensure that no such things happen again. Echocardiograms Wait Times Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Well, Mr. Speaker, it's not the first time something like this has happened. I hope that she commits to not only looking at the situation, but giving an answer to this particular individual and all Manitobans so it doesn't happen again. Mr.

Speaker, an echocardiogram is a test that uses sound waves to create moving pictures of the heart and allows a doctor to determine whether a patient is in danger and needs cardiac surgery.

December 6, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 449 According to a recent information request, more than 5,400 Manitobans are waiting up to 38 weeks for this critical test. Can the minister indicate why so many Manitobans are waiting to have this diagnostic procedure done, Mr. Speaker? Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): I thank the member for the question. Certainly, as I've spoken to him before on issues concerning wait times, we're working very diligently to ensure that we build our complement of not only doctors but of technologists who can help bring our wait times down.

We know that according to CIHI, treatments that are provided for cardiac care here in Manitoba are among the best in the country. I was very pleased to be in Brandon recently to announce the installation of another echocardiography machine. We're going to work together with our professionals and technicians to ensure that we bring those wait times down. I can say to the member opposite, as always, people with urgent cases are seen quickly. Mr. Goertzen: Mr. Speaker, let's take a look at the work that the minister has done as Minister of Health.

In February of 2005, there were 1,057 Manitobans waiting nine weeks for an echo- cardiogram. In February of 2006, there were 2,646 Manitobans waiting 22 weeks. As of October of this year, there are 5,473 waiting 38 weeks. The longer that she's on the job, the worse the situation gets. She likes to stand in this House and say she's got more work to do. Why is it the longer she works, the worse the problem gets? * (14:10) Ms. Oswald: Again, as I said to the member opposite, we're committed to bringing resources to the system, not only of the technological variety but of the human variety.

I'd remind the member opposite that he was co-chair of an election campaign that went right out front saying health care wasn't their priority. But let's also remember, Mr. Speaker that, not according to the member opposite but according– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I can't even hear. I need to be able to hear the questions and the answers, please, in case there's a breach of a rule. Ms. Oswald: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. In continuation with our commitment, we know that we've dramatically reduced the wait for cardiac surgery here in Manitoba.

Don't take the opposition's word for it; take CIHI's word for it. We know that we have the lowest wait times in the country. We have to continue on working to bring our wait for echocardiograms down, and we're going to continue to do that by bringing doctors into Manitoba. They didn't promise one. 50 Plus Job Bank Closure Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, since 1978, the 50 Plus Job Bank has been helping thousands of seniors. Today, that office has been closed down denying opportunities for seniors to be able to gain employment, denying opportunity for would-be consumers to be able to hire seniors.

This program has stood the test of time. It has been highly successful, and it is because of this government that that office is closed today. My question to the minister responsible: Why has the Doer government given up on the 50 Plus program, Mr. Speaker? Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister of Science, Technology, Energy and Mines): I'd like to inform the member opposite that it was actually a decision of the board to close the 50 Plus Job Bank.

The other thing I'd like to inform the member is, as we said to him privately, that we would make sure that we would work with the clients and the people who made use to transition this to other service organizations so that this demographic could receive not only the present services but, hopefully, enhanced services. Thirdly, we mentioned that there were other alternate services operated by non-profit or other groups that do the same sorts of services to the same demographic, and we hope to strengthen them and work with them in the future. Mr. Lamoureux: Yes, Mr. Speaker, let's be very clear.

It is the Doer government that's to blame and takes a 100 percent fault in the collapsing of that board and having the 50 Plus program killed today. It's because of this government, no other reason. That is the truth whether this minister wants to admit it or not. This program has been successful for virtually 30 years in helping and assisting our seniors in the province of Manitoba. Why has this Premier (Mr. Doer) given up on one of the most successful programs that the

450 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 2007 Province of Manitoba has provided for our seniors, Mr. Speaker? Can the Premier answer that question? Mr. Rondeau: Mr. Speaker, the member opposite again should look at the facts of the case. As I said earlier, the numbers of people that made use of this facility had been decreasing for years. What happened was the board decided that they wanted to discontinue their services. We worked with the board, with the employees, to make sure that this demographic is serviced.

We made sure that we worked with the board and the employees so that there's a transition, and we will continue to make sure that this demographic, seniors in Manitoba, not only have access to employment services, but also that people can get their services if they need to employ senior Manitobans. We hope to continue to enhance the service in the future, and we will work with community organizations to ensure that happens. Mr. Lamoureux: Mr. Speaker, this is what people are being told: If you are 50 years of age or older and require assistance finding a job, please contact the Winnipeg Transition Centre.

If you are an employer with a job vacancy, please contact the Seniors Information Line. Mr. Speaker, this is far different than what it is the services that the 50 Plus Job Bank has provided for virtually 30 years at a cost of $140,000 a year. It is a cost-efficient program that has proven itself over the years. The Doer government has canned the program, and the minister needs to take respon- sibility for that. He is not replacing it with something else. He is killing the program. My question to the Premier is: Why are you allowing your minister to kill this program? Mr. Rondeau: Mr.

Speaker, the economy is growing. There are more people employed. There are help wanted signs. There are all sorts of help wanted signs. If you go to your McDonald's, you can see that there are help wanted signs out there. This program was designed to help seniors find employment. There are lots of opportunities to be employed. Right now, we're working to transition this. We're ensuring that the service is provided. We're ensuring, in fact, that seniors have access to additional services. We want to make sure that happens. We want to ensure this demographic, its important people, do have opportunities for jobs.

We hope that people can phone in to continue to look at both of these, and we will ensure that this service is continued. Manitoba–Economy Growth Ms. Sharon Blady (Kirkfield Park): Mr. Speaker, Manitoba's economy continues to grow, the net debt has been decreasing, and the government has achieved eight consecutive balanced budgets, things that I know matter to my constituents in Kirkfield Park. A major credit rating agency has recently recognized Manitoba's sound management and economic prosperity. I was wondering: Can the Minister of Finance inform the House of how this Province is stacking up? Hon.

Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): I'd like to thank the Member for Kirkfield Park for the question. Mr. Speaker, the news has been very solid lately. Today we see in the newspapers that job growth in Manitoba is above the Canadian average; 15,000 new jobs, one-third of those jobs in the high-tech professional sector. Last week we saw that wages are growing above the Canadian average. We saw that Manitoba is leading Canada on productivity growth. We see our net debt to GDP declining. We see more investments in education, infrastructure, and health care. We see tax reductions, Mr. Speaker. We're on a roll.

We'll keep doing it for another four years. Single-Use Medical Equipment Ban on Re-use Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, in 1999 the PC government became leaders in Canada and banned the re-use of single-use disposable equipment because of safety reasons. They were banned to prevent the transmission of deadly infections between patients and to prevent the devices from breaking inside the body after repeated cleaning. I'd like to ask the Minister of Health if this ban is still in effect. Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I know the member opposite received a similar letter that I did from a nurse that's concerned about the re-using of single -use devices, so I thank her for the question and bringing it forward.

December 6, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 451 I can tell the member that the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority did come to government with a proposal concerning the re-use of these single- use devices, and we rejected it. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, there was a draft policy on October 19 put together by the WRHA for reprocessing flexible endoscopes, and, in fact, in today's day and age, it's even surprising that the WRHA, considering the amount of hepatitis and HIV that's out there, would even go down this road of revisiting this issue.

This nurse that did write this very long letter wrote it on behalf of all nurse endoscopists because they were afraid to speak out on what is happening. The equipment right now is being used. It is being stored in the endoscopy room and supposedly being sent to the United States for recleaning and then sent back. Nurses were afraid to speak up and afraid of reprisal. Can the minister please tell us why nurses are afraid to speak up about patient safety in Manitoba? Ms. Oswald: Mr.

Speaker, as I said in my previous answer to the member, that although this practice does go on in other jurisdictions in Canada, when we received the proposal from the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority, we reviewed it and rejected it. * (14:20) Tabor Personal Care Home Need for Replacement Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, 55 years ago, Tabor Home was built as a light-level seniors housing complex. Today it is a personal care home, and the majority of the people are bedridden. There is no sprinkler system. Doorways are too narrow to move the residents in case of fire or any other emergency.

Should there be loss of life, what would the Minister of Health say to the families knowing that Tabor personal care home is in desperate need of replacement? Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): I thank the member for the question. Certainly, I did have an opportunity to meet with the board of Tabor Home and to take a tour of the home to recognize their challenges. I had an opportunity to speak about it further when we were ou t in Morden-Winkler for the opening of the MRI in that area.

I can say to the member, as I've said on occasions to him before, we are certainly looking at the ask from the regional health authority and from the Tabor Home board in the context of the many, many capital asks that we are getting. We are going to work together with the region to make those improvements. Mr. Dyck: Mr. Speaker, I would like to thank John Buhler and the local people for investing their money in the local MRI. The minister knows and has agreed that this facility is outdated, does not meet today's safety standards and is in desperate need of replacement.

What is the Minister of Health doing for those who are aged and in need of a home where they can spend their last years in an environment where they can feel safe? Ms. Oswald: Mr. Speaker, there was a bit of noise over there. I didn't hear the member thanking the government of Manitoba for its $4-million contribution to that project of the MRI, but I digress. I can say to the member opposite, and, you know, we also thank the hard work of the foundation at the Boundary Trails hospital and the Buhler family for their generous contributions in helping us improve diagnostics.

I can say to the member opposite that our unprecedented capital investments in health facilities in the province speaks for itself. We're going to continue to work with the people of Morden-Winkler at the same time that we're investing $40 million to relook at the personal care home staffing guidelines to increase that complement of care to ensure that people are getting the care they need. It's the first time that's been looked at in 30 years. 50 Plus Job Bank Closure Mrs. Mavis Taillieu (Morris): Mr. Speaker, we thank the taxpayers of Manitoba for investments in MRI.

Seniors are a growing demographic in our society, yet the minister shuts down the 50 Plus Job Bank which has provided seniors with work and with services at lower rates. Today, the CFIB released a survey about the need for more seniors in the work force and yet the minister shuts down an organization that provides seniors with jobs. Many seniors live below the poverty line, yet the minister shuts down an organization that provides services at reduced rates. Why has the Minister responsible for Seniors (Ms. Irvin-Ross) treated seniors with such disregard?

452 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 2007 Is it because she doesn't understand her role as minister or is it because she just doesn't care? Hon. Jim Rondeau (Minister of Science, Technology, Ener gy and Mines): Mr. Speaker, maybe the member doesn't understand that the function of the seniors job bank was to facilitate the obtaining of–as a go-between between the employers and the seniors. What was happening was when this was founded, there was a large unemployment rate. Seniors were having a hard time getting into the work force.

Now there's a lower unemployment rate; there are lots of jobs offered and seniors are not using this organization at the same rate. What we've done is we're ensuring that seniors do have access to employment services. They have access to ensure that they can make a transition into the work force if they choose. We want to make sure that people who want to employ seniors have access to that demographic. That's what we're going to do– Mr. Speaker: Order. Mrs. Taillieu: Mr.

Speaker, I guess the answer to the question is the minister doesn't understand her role because she refuses to stand up, and she doesn't care because she refused to stand up for seniors. I'd like to ask the Minister responsible for Seniors again: When is she going to start doing her job and stand up for seniors, seniors that need jobs in our community, the economy that needs seniors in those jobs and seniors living below the poverty line? When is she going to stand up for seniors? Mr. Rondeau: Mr.

Speaker, I'm pl eased to see that we will continue to be a government that stands up for seniors, for young people, for all Manitobans, not just a select demographic like members opposite do. I am pleased to be a member of a government that gets the idea that we govern for all– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Rondeau: –Manitobans. Furthermore, Mr. Speaker, we're not going to just keep one service. We are going to make sure that seniors have access to the services they require, not just in one small sector but in all sectors.

So we want to not only keep the services; we want to make sure that the seniors can have access to these or potential employers can access seniors in different ways and better– Mr. Speaker: Order. Rural Health Care Specialist Shortage Mr. David Faurschou (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, we recently learned in Portage la Prairie that we will be losing our one and only pediatrician. Dr. Deborah Peabody, who has been providing excellent service to our community for more than 20 years, will be retiring at the end of January.

She currently cares for more than 100 families who are worried as to what will happen to their children if they get sick after this date. Can the Minister of Health explain, given her dismal track record of recruiting specialists to rural Manitoba, what can these families expect after January 31? Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, certainly the Department of Health in conjunction with the regional health authority will work diligently to recruit a physician.

Certainly I can say for the member–he may or may not be aware but I'm happy to remind him–that according to the College of Physicians and Surgeons, this year was a record-breaking year for the acquisition of doctors to Manitoba. This is in sharp contrast to 10 years ago when there was another record-breaking year, and it was a record low for doctor s that were brought to Manitoba. We know that we have to continue, like all jurisdictions in Canada, to bring health professionals. This was a record-breaking year for us, and we're going to continue to work to ensure that we can bring even more doctors to Manitoba.

Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. A reminder to members. As the Assembly will be recessing today until the New Year and because we will have Youth Parliament meeting here in the Chamber later this month, I am asking all members to empty the contents of their desks before leaving today. I encourage members to use the blue bins here in the Chamber to recycle their Hansards and copies of the bills that they won't be keeping. Any other materials you have to recycle should be placed in the larger blue bins in the two message rooms. I thank all honourable members for their co- operation.

December 6, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 453 MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Justice Ministers Meeting Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, having safe communities and fostering positive environ- ments for our youth are priorities for Manitobans and for this government. In November, Manitoba hosted Justice ministers and officials from across th e country for three days of meetings on a broad range of issues related to strengthening public safety.

Out of these meetings came agreement on important issues between the Justice ministers, such as a protocol on inter- jurisdictional AMBER Alerts to aid law enforcement agencies in facilitating the safe return of an abducted child. I am happy to say that the provincial government has also been working to keep our streets safe through initiatives such as the successful Winnipeg Auto Theft Suppression Strategy, which involves strict curfews and intensive supervision of chronic repeat offenders through specialized Corrections staff.

The Province's overall approach to reducing auto theft and youth crime focusses on the areas of prevention through a program such as Lighthouses; intervention through a program such as Turnabout, suppression through targeted funding for police officers, Corrections and Crown attorneys and conse- quences through lifetime suspensions of driver's licences for repeat offenders. The government has also introduced a bill on street racing which will provide for long-term driver's licence suspensions and vehicle forfeiture for those convicted of this dangerous activity.

Despite the numerous provincial initiatives on prevention, intervention and suppression of crime, the federal government must make changes to the Criminal Code in order to strengthen the consequences for those who commit serious crimes. The Province of Manitoba is continuing to press the federal government for such legislative reforms which was the purpose of the delegation which travelled to Ottawa in September.

The delegation included representatives from all parties of the Manitoba Legislature, municipal leaders, police and community representatives who went to Ottawa to seek urgent national action on auto theft and tougher sentences for serious youth crimes. Mr. Speaker, I'm proud of the work this provincial government has done to curb criminal activity and to keep Manitobans safe. Thank you. * (14:30) Mary McBurney and Sue Joyce Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Minnedosa): I'm happy today to speak about two remarkable women who have impacted both my life personally and professionally.

Mary McBurney is a great woman who has touched so many people with her strong determination to celebrate life's little gifts; and my amazing Aunt Sue , who will be celebrating her 103rd birthday tomorrow with as much energy and excitement as ever before. Mary McBurney was born in 1912 and spent her childhood and youth in Rapid City. After marrying in 1938, Mary and her husband moved to Wasagaming. Among her many activities, she was the founding member of the Onanole United Church, a Girl Guide leader and she helped or ganize and teach Sunday school to the local children.

In 1962, Marie moved to Rivers where she continues to live today. She remains a long-time member of the Rivers Women's Institute, the Rivers Fifty Plus Club and Rivers United Church. In fact, the church bestowed her with a special honour by asking her to be a senior angel for the White Gift Service this year. Mary continues to positively impact the lives of those around her. A remarkable woman I wish to recognize is my husband's great-aunt, Aunt Sue, who is celebrating her 103rd birthday on December 7.

She continues to live on her own in Webb Place in Winnipeg, and she often argues her source of physical and mental health after all these years is the result of her regular consumption of skim milk. Aunt Sue is not a woman of convention. She married at the age of 65, and she and her husband Wilf enjoyed 25 years of marriage. Aunt Sue is strong and vocal in her many beliefs, and she has always been a strong advocate for her family. She's very proud of the fact that her father, Duncan Cameron, was the Conservative MLA for Gilbert Plains in the early 1900s.

Her conservative convictions are sincerely evident in her comments to me over the years, as she willingly and lovingly gives me advice on important family issues. She also tries to give me political advice on how best to take down the NDP, but Aunt Sue, I keep working at this. Those fortunate to know Mary McBurney or Sue Joyce know how wonderful these women are. I'm happy to recognize that these two remarkable individuals have impacted my life so greatly. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

454 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 2007 Notable Women of Flin Flon Mr. Gerard Jennissen (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, reaching 100 years is an important milestone in anyone's life. Four special ladies from Flin Flon have reached that important age milestone. At the personal care home in Flin Flon, Evelyn Mae Constable reached the age of 104 on November 10; Irene McGilvary turned 103 on September 16 and Leone Govenlock turned 100 on July 7. At the Northern Lights Manor, Amanda Markham also reached 100 years of age on September 12.

I've known Evelyn Constable quite well because she operated Constables Lakeside Lodge in Cranberry Portage for ma ny years aided by her daughter, Ivale Gibbon, and Ivale's husband, Don. This well-known lodge is located on Brydges Avenue named after Mrs. Constable's father, Captain Edward Brydges, a former sea captain who also hauled freight for HBM&S on his barge named, Diamond K . Evelyn Constable's brother, Earl Brydges, was a famous dog musher who handled the mail run in the Flin Flon-Cranberry Portage area in the late 1920s and early 1930s. Even before that, Mrs.

Constable's parents came to Winnipeg in a Red River cart. Irene McGilvary came to Flin Flon in 1929. She worked as a nurse at the hospital during the '40s, '50s and into the '60s. She raised a son and a daughter. She is considered a pioneer nurse in the Flin Flon region. Another pioneer nurse was Leone Govenlock who also worked at the local hospital. Those were the years when the small mining community of Flin Flon turned into a booming city, and nurses were in high demand. Leone Govenlock retired in 1972. She is the mother of two children. The other Flin Flon senior who turned 100 is Amanda Markham.

She celebrated her 100th birthday on September 12, at the Northern Lights Manor. Amanda has worked at the laundry department at the hospital and later worked for Mickey Perepeluk at the Central Meat and Grocery. She worked well into her seventies, including stints as camp cook in remote areas for MidWest Drilling and Amisk Drilling. She is a life member of the Legion. I invite all members of the Legislature to join me in wishing these four wonderful ladies a special happy birthday. Thank you for making northern Manitoba a better place to live.

As well, we thank the caregivers and staff at the personal care home and Northern Lights Manor who, on a daily basis, are dedicated to the well-being of the seniors placed in their care. Thank you. Donald Brownridge Mr. David Faurschou (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Speaker, it is with great sadness that I stand before you today to speak about Mr. Donald Brownridge. Mr. Brownridge was a lifelong resident of Portage la Prairie and passed away on October 30 of this year at the age of 88. His many contributions to the community in the field of sports will not soon be forgotten. Mr.

Brownridge was born and lived his entire life in Portage la Prairie where he helped run the family farm with both his father and his brother. Mr. Brownridge was especially involved in competitive ploughing. He did exceptionally well and held three provincial titles, four western Canadian champion- ships and represented Manitoba on three occasions at the Canadian ploughing competitions. Mr. Brownridge was also an active participant, volunteer and organizer of curling bonspiels in Portage la Prairie and Winnipeg.

He spent over two decades as the manager of the Portage Curling Club, during which time he spearheaded the construction of the club's current facility, arguably the best facility in all of Canada. For several years Mr. Brownridge was an assistant drawmaster for what is now the Manitoba Curling Association Bonspiel. He helped start a men's cash bonspiel in Portage la Prairie which now features world-famous curlers. Mr. Brownridge's talent was also evident on the ice sheet as he twice skipped his team to two provincial senior men's championships in the 1970s. As an avid golfer, Mr.

Brownridge spent many days on the greens playing hundreds of tournaments and simply enjoying his time with fellow golfers. He contributed to the creation of the new back nine at the Portage Golf Club back in the 1980s. He also helped start the Senior Golf Club Tournament and the Six Pack competition. For all his outstanding efforts for the sports community, Mr. Brownridge was awarded a lifetime membership to the Portage Curling Club, the Manitoba Curling Association and the Portage Golf and Country Club. The community of Portage la Prairie has lost a great resident.

I would like to express, on behalf of all Portage la Prairie residents and the Manitoba Legislative Assembly, our sincere

December 6, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 455 condolences to Mr. Brownridge's family and friends. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Brave the Shave Event Ms. Sharon Blady (Kirkfield Park): Mr. Speaker, it was an exciting time for myself, as a newly elected MLA, to attend the Brave the Shave event at Westwood Collegiate in my constituency of Kirkfield Park. Westwood Collegiate has a tradition of caring for others and showing dedication to the fight against breast cancer. The school entered 69 people in the Run for the Cure raising over $3,200.

The Brave the Shave contest was a natural next step for the school. The entire school comm unity embraced the challenge wholeheartedl y and fundraised over $13,000 in only six school days, winning their right to shave the head of my colleague the Minister of Education (Mr. Bjornson). Mr. Speaker, breast cancer is the most common occurring cancer among Canadian women with an estimated four million women living with breast cancer globally. The Canadian Cancer Society estimates that 2007 will see 22,300 new cases of breast cancer in Canadian women and an estimated 810 of those cases will occur in our province.

It is important to remember that breast cancer is not just a women's issue. There will be approximately 170 new cases in men in 2007, and approximately 5,300 women and 50 men will die of breast cancer this year. I, as well as many other people in attendance, was truly touched by the very personal story of one student. Pascale Dubois lo st her mother to breast cancer, solidifying her resolve to raise money to fight this illness. Mr.

Speaker, I know I speak for every single member of this House when I offer my deepest condolences to Pascale and say that her story is inspiring young people everywhere to take up the fight against breast cancer. Congratulations are in order for Westwood Collegiate principal, Mr. Glen Bennett, student council president, Brenden Burnell, and all the staff and students that were involved with fundraising. Of course, the event would not have been nearly as memorable without all of those who actually went under the razor to brave the shave. Mr.

Speaker, their willingness to lose a little hair will make a big difference in the fight against breast cancer. Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY (Continued) GOVERNMENT BUSINESS House Business Hon. Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): Could you call, Mr. Speaker, debate for second reading on Bill 13, which is The Highway Traffic Amendment Act, followed by debate on second readings of Bill 7, The Child and Family Services Act; Bill 4, The Provincial Court Amendment Act; and Bill 5, The Witness Security Act? There'll be further matters that I'll be bringing forward shortly. Thank you. Mr.

Speaker: Okay, we'll be dealing with bills in this order. We'll start off with second reading of Bill 13, then we'll resume debate on Bills 7, 4 and 5 in that order. First, right now, we will deal with second reading of Bill 13, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (Damage to Infrastructure). * (14:40) SECOND READINGS Bill 13–The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (Damage to Infrastructure) Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Culture, Heritage, Tourism and Sport (Mr.

Robinson), that Bill 13, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (Damage to Infrastructure), be now read a second time and be referred to a committee of this House. Motion presented. Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Speaker, I'm pleased to speak to my honourable colleagues today regarding Bill 13, The Highway Traffic Amendment Act (Damage to Infrastructure). Over the last little while, there have been nine notable collisions with bridge structures in Manitoba. Six of the collisions involved bridge structures within the city of Winnipeg.

Of those six, three structures are under the authority of the federal railways and the remaining three are under provincial bridge structures. In July '07, following a serious collision at the Perimeter and the Trans-Canada Highway near Deacon's Corner and the floodway, government announced that it would be getting tough on drivers

456 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 2007 who crash their vehicles into bridges and trans- portation infrastructure. The new offence provision contained in this bill reflects the first phase of ou r strategy to address this problem. Drivers must be the first line of defence in protecting the public infrastructure. We need to impress upon drivers and vehicle owners the need to be aware of the dimensions of their vehicles and that the vehicle loads are appropriate for the route being travelled.

The new offence will apply to a driver or owner of a vehicle of any size or type that collides with and damages highway infrastructure. Additionally, a person who loads the vehicle may also be charged with the offence if it can be shown that they did not load the vehicle in compliance with legal limits authorized under The Highway Traffic Act. The broad orientation of the offence is necessary as the recent collisions involving vehicles ranging from large commercial trucks to farm implements to recreational vehicles. Moreover, the causes of the collisions differ.

In some cases, the vehicle's load is not properly secured for travel. In other cases, the vehicle was not authorized to be travelling on that particular route. Mr. Speaker, I'd like to make it clear that this government is not only looking at that sanctioning approach to address recent collision problems. Phase 2 of the government's action plan will involve implementation of appropriate measures to deal with the driver education and awareness and testing, enhanced monitoring, a more proactive enforcement approach, as well as recovery of cost for repair of damaged infrastructure.

Details regarding the elements of phase 2 are going to follow in due course, and I look forward to discussing the details of this bill with my colleagues at a further date. Thank you. Mr. Ralph Eichler (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Me mber for Morris (Mrs. Taillieu), that debate now be adjourned. Motion agreed to. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 7–The Child and Family Services Amendment Act (Child Pornography Reporting) Mr.

Speaker: We will resume debate on second reading of Bill 7, The Child and Family Services Amendment Act (Child Pornography Reporting), standing in the name of the honourable Member for Ste. Rose (Mr. Briese). Is it the will of the House for the bill to remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Ste. Rose? [Agreed] It will remain standing in the name of the honourable Member for Ste. Rose, and it's also standing in the name of the honourable Member for Brandon West (Mr. Borotsik), who has 28 minutes remaining. Mr. Rick Borotsik (Brandon West): Mr.

Speaker, I was on a roll for the first two minutes of this debate. Hopefully we can pick up on it, but just to repeat myself very briefly on this particular bill, The Child and Family Services Amendment Act (Child Pornography Reporting), the last full debate was with the Member for Ste. Rouge. I, at that time, congratulated her because she has certainly a reputation as a social activist, and this is certainly a piece of legislation that she takes– An Honourable Member: Fort Rouge. Mr. Borotsik: Fort Rouge. Mr. Speaker, my mike– thank you.

Fort Rouge, I'm sorry, Fort Rouge–and she is a social activist and I gave her full credit and full marks for certainly putting forward a very passionate speech with respect to this piece of legislation. One of the things that she did do is she didn't listen to the Member for Morris and the Member for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Hawr anik) when they were putting forward their position and their debate and their concerns with respect to this piece of legislation. Both of those members, the Member for Lac du Bonnet and the Member for Morris, had indicated that, in fact, in principle, the bill is acceptable.

I don't think there's anyone in this Chamber, this House, would ever suggest that any kind of legislation, any kind of restriction on child pornography is not good, certainly, for the citizens of Manitoba. However, what they did put on the record was that they have some concerns with respect to the legislation. They have some concerns that we think should be debated, that we believe that there are ways of fixing this particular piece of legislation to make it a better piece of legislation, and that really was all I wanted to say initially with respect to their debate.

December 6, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 457 I also wanted to inform the Member for Fort Rouge (Ms. Howard ) that, as a father, one of the most serious concerns that I had in raising my two children, was the first one that I had talked about briefly, was that of drugs. As a parent putting your children into society, we know full well that there are those opportunities that present themselves with respect to drugs.

I did the best that I could certainly in street-proofing and explaining to my children that this was something that they're going to have to deal with, and certainly it's something that they would have to make sure that they never got involved in. Quite frankly, quite fortunately, it happened, Mr. Speaker, that my sons certainly didn't take up that particular activity, and I'm very proud of that and very happy for them and happy for myself. But the other situation, Mr.

Speaker, that I was very, very fearful of, extremely fearful of as a parent, and that was that they would be approached by someone who certainly had some–I had concerns certainly that there are pr edators out there and that child abuse is a serious, serious concern. So, again, I made my children streetwise and certainly explained to them that there are some bad people out there, you have to protect yourself from them, and make sure that they knew how to handle themselves.

They were streetwise, and I'm very fo rtunate, now that they're grown up and can look after themselves, that they never did have to fall into a situation where they would have to protect themselves against those types of predators. The reason I mention that, Mr. Speaker, is, as a parent and certainly as a member of this society, we have to make sure that the vulnerable amongst us are taken care of and this is a piece of legislation that certainly is going to attempt to do that. But I'd like to voice a couple of concerns that I have.

The first concern, and the Member for Fort Rouge, unfortunately, seems to think that we should just, carte blanche, pass every piece of legislation that this government puts forward, because if it comes forward from the NDP, then obviously it has to be good. Well, Mr. Speaker, we've recognized, on a number of occasions, that this particular government doesn't manage well, that their legislation isn't all that good and that what they put forward doesn't quite achieve what it is that they would like to set out to achieve. This is one of those pieces of legislation. It is, in fact, really nothing more than fluff.

It's really nothing more than motherhood and apple pie, remember what I said as a parent. I would certainly do anything in my power to protect my children from this kind of a predator. This individual who is going to take advantage of child pornography in any way, shape or form should be stopped. They should be prosecuted. They should be sentenced very heavily, and they should be taken to the full extent of the law. I'm the first to admit to that, but this law does not necessarily, in my opinion , do that for a number of reasons. First of all, Mr.

Speaker, we know that this particular government, with legislation that's already in place, does not really have a very good track record, and this may well be another one. Enforcement is the key to any piece of legislation. You can put a law into plac e, you can enact the law, but unless that law has an enforcement component to it, it's not worth the paper that it's written on. We've talked about the forfeiture law that was put into place by this government, and then asked about how many vehicles were forfeited by johns to stop the johns and prostitution in this city.

The answer was, really an unintelligible answer at that time, but the answer was, ultimately, one. There was a law put into place to stop johns with respect to prostitution, and the law failed. It's an abject failure. It doesn't do what this government set out to do. That was all because of enforcement. It was all because of now there were issues with respect to ownership. There were issues with respect to the individuals themselves not having any particular ownership in any one vehicle. There were leasing arrangements and there were other issues with respect to the vehicle. So the forfeiture law didn't work.

It hasn't worked, but it was touted as being the end-all and be- all when it comes to stopping prostitution, under- aged prostitution, particularly in the city of Winnipeg. So that didn't work. Now, we have a piece of legislation that's put before the House that's exactly the same. It means well. Make no mistake about that, it means well. It does try to put forward a solution to child pornography, but, unless there are resources, unless there is an effective enforcement put into place, this means absolutely nothing. * (14:50) Ms. Bonnie Korzeniowski, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair.

Now, does that mean that inspectors are going to go out on a regular basis and go to each and every computer repair shop that we have in the province of Manitoba on a daily basis to make sure that these issues are reported? It's not going to work.

458 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 2007 Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, the good people out there who do run into child pornography, that do run into the hard drives in these computers that have this particular vile kind of material on those hard drives, the good people are going to report regardless of law. They are going to say, this is wrong; I want this stopped in my society. They're going to come forward, laws or no laws. I would do it and I know that each and every member across on the government's side would do it.

I know that each and every member on my side of the House would do it as well if we ever came across a situation like that. We'd do it without having to be told. We'd do it to protect my children. We'd do it to protect your children. We'd do it because it was the right thing to do, not because it was legislated. But, Madam Deputy Speaker, there are a lot of not-very-nice people out there. Those are, first of all, the people who are performing these dastardly tasks, dastardly duties. These are the people who prey on children.

These are the pe ople who are involved in the child pornography industry, and it is an industry out there, make no mistake about it. It's awful. It's vile. It's despicable. It should be stopped. But this piece of legislation, the way it's written right now, isn't going to achieve that end. That's all we're saying. We would like to see that goal attainable and achievable, but, unfortunately, with this piece of legislation, that's not going to happen. Now, does that mean that we're not going to support it? Absolutely not. Something is better than nothing, but this is really just a little bit more than nothing.

I talk about the forfeiture law here in Manitoba. It didn't work. I can point to a federal law which they refer to as gun control, long gun registration. It's a similar situation where it's a law. It's a piece of legislation that was put in for probably the right reasons, but it's impacted the wrong people. It impacted the good people, the people who weren't going to cause any difficulties or problems with their long guns anyway. They were the ones that were impacted and the bad guys are still out on the streets. As a matter of fact, those bad guys are still out on the streets here in the city of Winnipeg.

It's not a long gun that's the problem, but we see it in the bars in the Exchange District. We see it in the streets. We see it in the gang wars. We see guns still in this community. That's even with the law. That's with this law. That's what we're saying here. This law can be enacted and it will be enacted, but it's not going to do what everyone would like to see it do, and that is to stop child pornography. What this law says it's going to do, it's going to say that if you run into it, you have to report it. If you don't report it, we're going to charge you, convict you, fine you.

We've got a whole bunch of remedies for you if you don't report it, but we don't know if you're going to report it anyway because we have no enforcement. We have no way of enforcing that particular law. Now, we also know that this is The Child and Family Services Amendment Act. We also recognize that Child and Family Services department under this minister really doesn't have a very good track record. This ministry really doesn't instil a lot of confidence in citizens of the province of Manitoba.

Here we're supposed to make sure that we give them the ability to go and correct all of the issues and all of the problems with child pornography. That's not going to happen. They can't solve the problems that they have within their own department right now with Child and Family Services. They can't promise that the children in need in this province are going to be protected. They can't promise that it's safety first, Madam Deputy Speaker, that it's safety that we're concerned about with the children in this province.

They can't promise that, an d they can't promise that those children will be provided that safety that's absolutely so vital and so necessary. Madam Deputy Speaker, we have a lack of confidence in Child and Family Services. We have a lack of confidence in the enforcement of this particular piece of legislation, and we definitely have a lack of confidence in the ability of this government to certainly manage not only their legislation but their departments.

The last thing that I see here is a danger, a very severe danger, a serious danger of an unintended consequence of this legislation, and that would be one of a false accusation, that they would be falsely accused. In fact, it just happened. Yesterday, in the House of Commons, a member of one of the opposition parties– [interjection] The NDP party, actually, it was. The Memb er for Springfield (Mr. Schuler) just informed me that there was an NDP member in the House of Commons who, whether inadvertently or intentionally, noticed a computer, and that's what this is all about. This is about computers.

This is about reporting child porno- graphy. This is about the hard drives, the disks, the Internet, the technology that is head and shoulders above most of us and certainly is expanding on a most rapid basis.

December 6, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 459 Here was an NDP member who took to task a member of the Conservative Party because she saw a computer on his desk, and, by the way, what she saw was a picture of his dog. However, she stood in the House and she accused an innocent individual of having pornography visible in the House of Commons. That's what the accusation was. An innocent individual was accused of having pornography on his computer screen. As it worked out, that wasn't the case. It was a picture of his dog, but, unfortunately, the damage was done. I know this individual. I know him.

He is one of the nicest MPs that you would ever like to have to meet. He's honest. He's conscientious. He is the last person in the world that you would ever consider to have that type of information not only on his computer screen but sitting in the House of Commons. He is a bright young man who would never do that but was accused by a NDP member, and the accusation is there. Getting over that is going to be very difficult because every time you see that individual now, you're going to question and say, I heard something about that; I saw something about that. Oh, yeah, it was about pornography.

The same thing can happen with this piece of legislation. If somebody, an NDP member, for example, didn't like me–heaven forbid, I can't see that ever happening, but if they ever did, they could accuse me. They could accuse me and it would be a frivolous accusation. It would be, but, unfortunately, the damage would be done. That's a problem with this piece of legislation. Somebody somewhere is going to say: Under the legislation I have to report this. I have to report this.

But they may well not even know what it is that they're reporting or whether it even falls under the legislation of child pornography, but if they report it, then obviously you're tarred with that particular situation. So there are serious implications and I hope they're well-thought-out. I hope this government recognizes that there are loopholes, that there are cracks that individuals can fall through. We're not happy with this government's management of other departments and I don't see that this is going to be any different. We know that the enforcement is not going to be there.

You're not going to put into place the numbers of people that are necessary to enforce this. You can't walk into every computer repair shop on a daily basis. You can't do it. If you don't have that kind of enforcement, you don't have good legislation, and if you don't have good legislation, than why put it forward? Now, it's put forward because it's pretty fluffy. There is not a lot of vision going forward into 2008, 2009, 2010 from that side of the House. The bills don't have a lot of substance. We've seen that with the legislation that's been brought forward. In fact, there is very little substance.

Bills that should come forward, like the environment bill, Kyoto, haven't come forward. A finance bill with respect to consolidated financial reporting hasn't come forward. Nothing of any substance, of any vision, of any opportunity has come forward, so let's deal with these one-paragraph, fluffy little pieces of legislation that, in fact, make people warm and fuzzy, give the impression that they're doing something. But, in fact, if they are doing something, it's just a little less than nothing. * (15:00) So, Madam Speaker, I'm happy to have been able to put these comments on the record.

I do wish the government and the people speaking to this piece of legislation would recognize that we do have some legitimate concerns, some legitimate complaints. I hope they take that into consideration when it comes before committee, when we can talk about this with other stakeholders that come forward with respect to the privacy of this particular piece of legislation. Thank you, Madam Speaker, for the opportunity. Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): I had been standing here waiting. I was expecting somebody from the government side to speak to this legislation, and I'm a little bit surprised that they didn't.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I do want to indicate for the record that, regard ing Bill 7, The Child and Family Services Amendment Act (Child Porno- graphy Reporting), I do support the fact that an attempt is going to be made to create a situation where we hope people will report if they come across child pornography. I would note that this legislation was promised more than a year ago in the 2006 Throne Speech, and it took until last week to materialize.

I do question why it did take that long, but, considering the significance of addressing child pornography, and if the government had a sincere commitment to sincerely following through on that, I'm not sure why something mentioned in a Throne Speech in 2006 has taken until now to turn up on the Order Paper. But I will at least say that, I guess, better late than never. I do like the fact that, with this legislation, ISPs are now in a position where, if they

460 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 2007 come across child pornogra phy, they are going to have to report this. I think that that part of the legislation may show some positive results. I certainly hope it does, because that is the one area where we may find, in fact, that something could happen. Madam Deputy Speaker, while I was with Child Find Manitoba, I was very actively involved as a children's rights advocate. We were addressing the issues of child abuse, particularly those around child prostitution and child pornography.

In those days, we were sort of at the forefro nt in Child Find, here in Manitoba, actually, in looking at those types of issues. I have to say they were very challenging issues to address, particularly the area of child pornography because we also know–and child prostitution, I guess I would say–because we know that, on a lot of these instances, the whole area of pedophiles is very prevalent within this area.

So, while we were starting to look at those issues and starting to gather data and starting to do research on the area of child prostitution and child pornography and around pedophiles and trying to understand that issue, it certainly was challenging to try, as a non- profit organization in those days, to do the kind of work where you saw and heard and became aware of some of these horrible, horrible issues and images as it relates to child pornography. I don't think that most people could even imagine what some of that might be like.

My commitment to fight this was strengthened at that time after being trained in a small degree, actually, by the police to understand what child pornography actually was, to sit through some sessions of training where we saw–and I would have to say it certainly wasn't sort of the extreme end of child pornography. I don't think they would have been showing that to any of us. But we certainly saw aspects of it on video and in print. Even that small amount of exposure had a profound effect on me in terms of how evil this type of a situation is.

Madam Deputy Speaker, it is also a well-known fact that primary producers, distributors and consumers of child pornography are child molesters and pedophiles. Law enforcement investigators have verified that pedophiles almost always collect child pornography, and that collection is something that is very, very special to them. It's not just that they amass a dozen pictures or a few. Some of these pedophiles amass hundreds, if not thousands, of pictures of children involved in acts that we probably can't even imagine. They don't just look at pornography.

They actually save it; they cherish it; they use it to enhance their fantasies and it becomes a central part of their lives. According to Kenneth Lanning, in the definitive report, Child Molesters: A Behavioral Analysis, pedophiles almost always collect child pornography. It is treasured by the pedophile and represents their most cherished sexual fantasies. Many pedophiles compulsively and systematically save the collected material to validate their actions, or as mementoes and souvenirs.

It's hard to believe that someone can even imagine that this type of material becomes a souvenir for pedophiles, for people that have such a deviant view of children. They like to share these mementoes to gain strong enforcement from ot her like-minded persons. We know that collections of child pornography could include books, magazines, articles, newspapers, photographs, negatives, slides, movies, albums, drawings, audio tapes, videotapes, personal letters, diaries, clothing.

Nowadays, what we do see more and more, certainly, is pornography on the Internet, and that has become much more the prevalent type of vehicle where pornography is shared. It is the new frontier for pedophiles. What has been happening now with this issue is more and more organizations and police forces are able to look at this and legislators are able to look at this. Even compared to, fo r instance, 10 years ago, we have a greater ability to track down some of these people that are sharing this pornography on the Internet.

While 10 years ago, it was much more difficult, with the expertise that's evolving and with more commitment of people to address this issue, it is becoming more common that, in fact, when images are seen, they ca n actually be traced, and people that are putting them on the Internet can actually be caught.

What we have to make sure that is done after that then, too, is to ensure that there are the type of punishments for people that have gone down this road where they think that this is something that, in their view, is quite acceptable to have and to do and to share, and a very warped view, indeed, of that whole issue. * (15:10) We know, too, that when we see pictures of the children and, hopefully, none of us, I guess, are ever exposed to that.

We hope, even accidentally, not to see it, but seeing some of that certainly creates a strong, I think, commitment from a lot of us that what has to happen is every opportunity to attack

December 6, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 461 that, to address it at all levels has to be taken because we're not just–and that's where we have to really get our minds around it too, is this is not just a picture that is a still image or it's not just a videotape of something that has no reality to it. There is a real child that is involved in that, whether that child is videotaped, whether that child is photographed. That child is always a victim because child prostitution and child pornography is child abuse. I don't think anybody in this Chamber has any comfort level with that at all.

I think that that is why I am supportive of seeing whatever we can do, even if it might be small steps, that indeed those steps have to be taken to try our best at least to do this. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't have a really good look at the legislation and try to look where the flaws might be so that, indeed, once that legislation is put out there, it can be the strongest legislation possible. Children who have been exposed to pornography have profound effects on their lives because of what they have been put through.

Because of that they could become very desensitized and socialized into believing that pornographic activity is normal. That is certainly what a lot of pedophiles try to do with children. That is how they often approach their victims and create their victims is to use child pornography as a way to soften up children so that, indeed, they can continue on and do what their intent is with these children. Children that have been used in the production of pornography show a multitude of symptoms: emotional withdrawal, antisocial behaviour, mood swings, depression, fear, anxiety.

They are at high risk to later become perp etrators themselves. The most destructive feelings those children carry are guilt and shame. Certainly, when we hear of young children committing suicide, it is something that we must consider in those situations is to look in their background of abuse and of exploitation, whether they have had any of these acts put forward in pornographic films or in any way because this obviously will have had a profound effect on them making the decisions that they have made. Child pornography devalues, it degrades and it marginalizes children as a class.

For a lot of these people–I remember in our Child Find days we became aware of an organization. The letters for the organization's name is NAMBLA and it's North American Man/Boy Love Association and their actual slogan was "sex before eight or it's too late." A lot of these people truly believed that this was okay. They did not see anything wrong in this. Some of those people that were headquartered in the United States were actually judges, lawyers, even police officers, doctors, you know, a number of people.

This was a very, very formalized organization that shared a lot of child pornography over the Internet and, in fact, utilized thes e kinds of connections that they had that when they were travelling to other cities they could actually access one of their I'd call so-called associates in another city and order up a child. It's hard to imagine that these types of activities actually happen, but they do. It's not always the person that looks like a bogeyman or a person that looks like an ordinary upstanding citizen.

People don't expect them to look like that but, in fact, a lot of people, a lot of pedophiles, that is exactly what they look like. Children are not put on this earth to be objects of pedophiles; they're not put on this earth for sexual exploitation or entertainment of adults, because child pornography deprives them of their childhood, deprives them of their innocence, deprives them of their human character and their identity. We certainly have to have our hearts go out to these children who are put through these kinds of situations.

It is very harmful and, again, while this legislation, I suppose, is probably not perfect, there may be some concerns with it. It likely is in many ways symbolic. I guess the symbol and the message that is out there is that, you know, in this very complicated and complex area of child pornography, steps are being made to try to at least deal with this issue and curb this horrendous act that is committed upon children.

The one caution, I suppose, in all of this is to be absolutely sure that, in the reporting of somebody in possession of child pornography or sharing it via the Internet, we don't find situations where innocent people that might accidentally come upon this are, in turn, victimized themselves, that, in fact, there is some ability to ensure, that in those instances, the people that are reporting or who may have accidentally come upon some thing are not caught in a situation where they have had nothing to do with this in a negative way. So those cautions do need to be taken, I think, within the legislation.

But, certainly, as far as reporting child pornography or reporting child abuse, I don't think there is anybody that is going to argue with the absolute need to do that, because nobody in this Chamber would tolerate such abuse of children.

462 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 2007 We also know that Cybertip in the last number of years has been very, very successful in addressing this issue. I was very proud to see that the organization that I worked so hard at for a number of years, and the work that we started back then evolved into what we see now today and know today as Cybertip.ca, which is a national tip line for receiving and addressing reports regarding child pornography. The success they're having, I guess, you could look at it in two ways.

One is it's incredible that they can see the kind of success they're seeing because that is very hard work. The people that have to work at Cybertip, I think, have a job that nobody would want. You know, I've spoken to some of the people that have to look at the tips that come in, that have to investigate the tips that come in. I give them so much credit and to all of the people at Child Find for dealing with this issue because it can't be easy.

It cannot in any way make somebody comfortable to see this and then to have to go home where, you know, you have small children yourself and be able to try to have this wholesome view of life when you know that there are things happening. It must be extremely aggravating when they're having trouble tracking down some of these sites and trying to shut them down and knowing what they're seeing on there and children being victimized.

It must be extremely difficult for a lot of them to go home and be ready to come back at it the next day when you want so badly to be able to be successful at identifying who's been abusing the children, and to rescue those kids. * (15:20) According to Cybertip.ca, there are a couple of interesting statistics. One in four children has had a stranger ask to meet them in person. That's the one thing that kids have to become very, very aware of when they are actually on the Internet, is to be very, very careful of who they ar e talking to, be careful of the chat lines. Be careful now with Facebook.

We're starting to hear a little bit. I mean, the technology and the advancement in technology can also have a dark side to it that everybody really needs to be aware of, particularly parents. Fifteen percent of all young Internet users have met in person at least one individual whom they first met on the Internet, and of those, only 6 percent were accompanied by a parent or other adult. Those statistics certainly raise some degree of alarm to be sure. Thirty-eight percent of young people say that their parents know nothing or very little about their on-line activities.

That's where parents have to become more informed, and that's where education programs are very important so that parents do realize that there can be a lot of very dark people hanging around on the Internet looking to take advantage of children. One of the statistics also says that one in four youth have been sent pornography on the Internet by a stranger, and 40 percent have been asked by a stranger to give personal information. We really need to ensure that we are protecting our children from this scourge and really, that is what it is.

Some of the case studies that Child Find has shared with the public, without using names, of course, do show how easily some of this can translate into children meeting predators online, children being exploited, children being sexually abused at some point, and that is certainly not something that I don't think any of us are comfortable with. I give credit to not only Child Find for what they are doing to address this, but there have certainly been a lot of champions across Canada. I'm pleased to see that there has been some action from the Manitoba government in addressing this issue.

There has certainly been a lot of financial resources put forward by the federal government to make this work. There have been police officers across this country, integrated child exploitation units, ICE units that have taken on this issue and they, too, are faced with having to address on a daily basis some pretty horrendous images or hear stories that are very, very disturbing. So I give all of them credit for the kind of effort they are putting forward to protect our children. I think we need to be able to give the supports to all of these people so that, indeed, we can protect our children.

I certainly think that we need to ensure, once children are also identified in situations like this and hopefully rescued, that, indeed, there are a lot of supports built in around that child so that they are able to reconcile in some way what has happened to them. Certainly, anything we can do to address protecting kids, to deal with pedophiles and others that possess child pornography, I think we have to go to the wall on doing that.

I think it's absolutely imperative that all of us as legislators look at whatever avenue we can and try to ensure that we put forward every effort that we can so that a child is not victimized in this way, because it is not only once that they are victimized. Every time that picture is out there or that movie is out there, these children are victimized again and again.

December 6, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 463 Part and parcel of this also has to be looking at raising the age of consent, another aspect to this that does need to be supported by everybody at every level in all of the governments across Canada to ensure that that age of consent can be raised to 16. I know that the federal government is trying very hard to do that.

I understand that it was being held up in the Senate right now, and I would encourage all of us to put some pressure on so that, in fact, that particular legislation can move through so that we can ensure that children are protected with every tool that we can possibly put forward.

I think with those few comments, Madam Deputy Speaker, again I would just like to commend Child Find and Cybertip and all of the police forces for the work that they are doing to address this within our society so that, indeed, people realize that child pornography is child abuse, child prostitution is child abuse and, in fact, that we not tolerate this in any way whatsoever. I'm certainly pleased to support this legislation. I hope that it isn't something that doesn't get used and I say that, I guess, in two ways.

I wish it never had to get used because I would wish that there is no such thing as child pornography, but as long as that is occurring, I think we need to put this tool out there so that we can at least give the legal system something to work with. If it does shut down one or two sites or put a pedophile or two in jail and take them off the street to protect our kids, then I think it's incumbent on us to be supportive of that and see this legislation through. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Mr. Andrew Swan (Minto): Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm glad I waited.

I was going to speak after the Member for Brandon West (Mr. Borotsik) got on the record. I'm glad I wa ited for the Member for Charleswood because I think, frankly, because of her background in Child Find Manitoba, she's actually done a very good job of putting on the record the hard work that is done by Child Find, now the Canadian Centre for Child Protection. She's put on the record the good work being done by Cybertip.ca and frankly, I think she's put on the record some very good comments.

I'm glad to see perhaps she can control some of the lose cannons in her caucus because I think she's quite knowledgeable in this issue and I do respect that. So, indeed, this is a very good bill. This is going to take another step in trying to prevent the exploitation of our young people. It's a positive thing. We respect the work that is being done by the centre. We believe that referring these matters, or people referring matters to Cybertip.ca so they can deal with law enforcement, is a very good idea. We have confidence in the system.

I thank the Member for Charleswood for her co mments and I think we should send this bill on to committee so we can better protect our children. Thank you. Mr. David Faurschou (Portage la Prairie): Madam Deputy Speaker, indeed the members opposite are seeming a little bit skittish as to debating this bill because very few remarks have been put to debate from the government side of the House. I don't know why that is the case, whethe r they have been told by their caucus whip to be quiet.

I know that the Member for Minto just st ood for about a minute but really didn't speak much of the bill, only of members on this side of the House and with no reference to the bill, specifically. I know the Member for Elmwood (Mr. Maloway) is chatting on from his seat there, I know anxious to stand up and speak very clearly– Point of Order Madam Deputy Speaker: The honourable member of Justice, on a point of order? Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Madam Deputy Speaker, I wonder–I know it's a little unusual, but I wonder if it would be appropriate if I could ask if you would canvass the House to see if there's leave at this point to bring forward a motion to establish a special committee to deal with the issue of Senate elections. Would I have leave of the House? * (15:30) Madam Deputy Speaker: This is to advise the House that you cannot put forth a motion as a point of order. Therefore, there's no point of order. * * * Mr.

Faurschou: I know I began into debate on Bill 7, but I would like to ask before proceeding in further debate on Bill 7 if there's leave of the House to revert to bills so that I may be able to bring forward the private member's bill, Bill 222. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Deputy Speaker, could the member–I'm sorry, I missed the point because there was such loud laughter from the Member for Springfield (Mr. Schuler). I don't understand sometimes what the Member for Springfield finds

464 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 2007 funny, but the Member for Portage la Prairie (Mr. Faurschou) had asked for leave of the House to bring a matter from this morning. We're prepared to provide leave. Madam Deputy Speaker: Is there leave of the House to bring forth Bill 222 for first reading by the honourable Member for Port age la Prairie? Is there leave? [Agreed] INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 222–The Business Practices Amendment Act (Disclosure of U.S. Lemon Vehicles) Mr. David Faurschou (P ortage la Prairie): Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker.

I move, seconded by the honourable Member for Morris (Mrs. Taillieu), that Bill 222, The Business Practices Amendment Act (Disclosure of U.S. Lemon Vehicles), be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Faurschou: Bill 222 is

an act that will require suppliers of automobiles here in Manitoba to declare the origin of the vehicle that has been declared under U.S. law to be a lemon. So thank you. Madam Deputy Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before–is the House ready for the question? Some Honourable Members: Question. Madam Deputy Speaker: The question before the House is first reading of Bill 222, The Business Practices Amendment Act (Disclosure of U.S. Lemon Vehicles). Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] House Business Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): I wonder if you might canvass this House to see if there's leave to bring forward a motion to establish a special committee to deal with the issue of Senate elections for Manitoba. Madam Deputy Speaker: Is there leave to bring forward a motion to establish a special committee to deal with the issue of Senate elections for Manitoba? An Honourable Member: Leave. An Honourable Member: No. Madam Deputy Speaker: Has leave been granted? An Honourable Member: Yes. Madam Deputy Speaker: Granted and so ordered. * * * Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Deputy Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Advanced Education (Ms. McGifford), THAT a Special Committee on Senate Elections be established under

An Act To Establish An All- Party Committee To Make Recommendations On Electing Senators with the mandate, under the Act, to consider matters relating to the election of senators and report to the Assembly within six months or within any longer period allowed by the Assembly; THAT the membership of the committee consist of (

a) seven members designated by the Whip of the NDP caucus, (

b) four members designated by the Whip of the PC caucus, and (

c) one member designated by the independent members; THAT, within the parameters of the Act, the committee be authorized to decide how it will conduct its business, including deciding to hold meetings at time and places it considers advisable to receive briefs and hear representations; and THAT, except as otherwise provided in this motion or in the Act, the committee have the same status, powers, rules and procedures as a standing committee of the House, including the power to establish a sub-committee for the purposes of carrying out any part of the committee's work. Mr. Speaker in the Chair Mr.

Speaker: It's been moved by the honourable Attorney General (Mr. Chomiak), seconded by the Minister of Advanced Education, THAT a Special Committee on Senate Elections– An Honourable Member: Dispense. Mr. Speaker: Dispense. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, in consultation with the House leader of the oppos ition, as well as the House leader from the independent party, we've agreed to not comment on this motion, other than to offer to yourself as Chair any assistance that we as House leaders can offer in expediting this particular matter

December 6, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 465 in so far as the powers delegated to yourself as Speaker. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt motion? [Agreed] House Business Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to announce that the Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs meet on Thursday, December 13, at 3 p.m., to consider the appointment of the Children's Advocate.

I'd also like to announce that the Standing Committee on Crown Corporations will meet on Wednesday, December 19, at 6 p.m., to consider the annual reports of the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board for the years ended March 31, 2004; March 31, 2005; March 31, 2006 and March 31, 2007. I will have further announcements, Mr. Speaker, shortly. * (15:40) Mr. Speaker: It's been announced that the Standing Committee on Legislative Affairs will meet on Thursday, December 13, at 3 p.m., to consider the appointment of the Children's Advocate.

Also, it's been announced that the Standing Committee on Crown Corporations will meet on Wednesday, December 19, 2007, at 6 p.m., to consider the annual reports of the Manitoba Hydro-Electric Board for the years ended March 31, 2004, March 31, 2005, March 31, 2006, and March 31, 2007, and there will be further announcements coming with other committee hearings possibly. That's announcements. DEBATE ON SECOND READINGS Bill 7–The Child and Family Services Amendment Act (Child Pornography Reporting) Mr.

Speaker: Now, we will continue on with debate with Bill 7, The Child and Family Services Amendment Act (Child Pornography Reporting). The honourable Member for Portage la Prairie had the floor. Mr. David Faurschou (Portage la Prairie): In regard to Bill 7, I had remarked earlier about the lack of government participation in debate on second reading, and more referen ce to remarks made by the opposition members than remarks pertaining directly to Bill 7.

I've very intently listened to debate this afternoon in regard to The Child and Family Services Amendment Act, Bill 7, which is intended that child pornography be reported, and also sets out what actions are to be taken when such a report is made. I personally have read the bill from start to finish. It's not long in length, only five pages, but what I'm very concerned about is, once again, it relies upon an individual to effectively determine whether the pornographic material that has come to their attention is, in fact, that of a child.

I know that there are determinations being made now to a change in the law, which will bring the age of consent from 14 years to 16 years of age, but this bill refers to the federal government Criminal Code definition of a child. But, once again, I don't believe that there is anyone that could stand in this Chamber and say that without a doubt, 100 percent surety that you can determine someone's age by just only visual means.

I know that the bill is intended to try and curtail and bring to the proper authorities any child pornography that they might be aware of , but it is placing a great deal of onus on individuals that have to ascertain and determine the age of the individual. I know that today we have before us what is touted by the New Democratic Party as to be legislation first-of-its-kind, and as we have learned through practice that, perhaps, the first-of-its-kind legislation in Canada offered forward by the New Democratic Party here in Manitoba is often very flawed.

We have legislation to address the gangs that are operating here in Manitoba, that the legislation itself after a number of years has not even brought forward one charge or one conviction. When that legislation was brought in, it was, once again, also touted as first-of-its-kind. We also reflect upon the chaotic situation in Family Services presently brought about by a first-of-its-kind practice to ask persons their racial relationship or orientation before determining as to how the government agency will deal with the individual requesting assistance.

I find that, personally, something that really sets us apart from the rest of the world when the first question that government would ask of an individual was what your race is. I thought, being raised here in Manitoba and Canada, that we were far past looking first to the person's race or skin colour before determining whether that person is in need of help. I think we should be very reflective of the person's need first before trying to ask someone of their race.

I think there was one country in the world, another government, that asked what race and then, based on race, how they were determined as to how they were handled by government. I think that was South Africa.

466 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 6, 2007 But, anyway, Mr. Speaker, it is with a great deal of concern that I rise and debate Bill 7, because not only does it provide a great deal of onus on an individual to determine how old a person is that has been seen in pornographic material, but also, too, we know that technology exists now to export from one site to another site, whether wanted or unwanted, through the Internet, pornographic material.

Should I be an individual that, unfortunately, turns on their computer and accesses the Internet and then we see the pornographic material on our screen that we did not request or effectively attempt to access, but it's there, nevertheless.

I believe the terminology for that occurrence is pop-ups, and with pop-ups, immediately, your computer will effectively log what is called a cookie by industry and then your computer will, unless you're able to dislodge this cookie and delete it, will be constantly acquiring this site and whether you want to view or you don't want to view pornographic material, nevertheless, it's popping up on one's screen.

So, even though you might take your computer hardware to technicians in the industry to have your computer cleaned, then, potentially, that computer repair business would be required under this legislation to report you as importing and viewing child pornography. Then you, the innocent individual that is a victim of pop-ups, is now potentially a victim of this legislation and, as we all know, as we are in politics, even this slightest suggestion that we might be seeking out child pornography would be devastating to our political careers.

So I'm very, very concerned about this legislation because it would then require us, as individuals, to defend ourselves in court, that we did not voluntarily acquire this child pornography. It merely came as a pop-up on our computer hardware. * (15:50) Mr. Speaker, I know that it was reported just in today's paper, as to how someone can, in politics can be rated for pornography and viewing pornography. Again, the determination as to what is pornographic or not pornographic is in the eyes of the beholder as well.

We see by the debate in Parliament that a member of the New Democratic Party assessment of pornography is a picture of another MP's girlfriend, which was not exposing any of what they consider private parts. It was only that of a scantily clad– [interjection]–and this, the New Democratic Party member decides is something of importance to Parliament and asked that there be an apology forthcoming. In fact, what did take place, whence all the information was learned, it was a New Democratic Party member that was offering up an apology.

So this legislation does in fact provide for an atmosphere where this activity is heightened and in fact, brought into the court system and, what could be just clearly a misunderstanding or a mis- representation ends up before the court system. So I would like to stress very, very strenuously that the legislation, being the first of its kind, while well- intentioned, is fraught with areas that could be misinterpreted and bring a lot of grief to innocent individuals.

Also, we want to be satisfied before this legislation goes forward that the government does have, in fact, the resources to make certain that the legislation passed before the Legislative Assembly is going to be enforced. As I mentioned before, we already have law passed before this Chamber that has yet to have one conviction. In fact, even one charge laid. I spoke in the Legislative Assembly yesterday and referred to the amount of time that is required before someone that is charged with an offence is brought before the court system here in the province of Manitoba.

Currently, ev en the most serious of infractions, which I believe are child abuse infractions, take more than five months to get to the judge. In the meantime, the youngsters are not being able to be properly dealt with because there is no resolution to the situation, because the courts are not addressing the situation. We also know that even the perpetrators of such crimes are only remanded. They may be in custody or they may not be in custody.

But the fact remains that, when they are in remand waiting for their court cases to be heard, there are no programs being offered to those individuals to rehabilitate those individuals. So time lapses, and I know the Attorney General (Mr. Chomiak) is recognizant of this fact, that the judges look at those persons that have been held in custody prior to their court date are given double or triple credit for the days, weeks, months spent incarcerated prior to their conviction.

So their time in custody, allowing for programs to be implemented to rehabilitate, is significantly, and I will stress, significantly reduced. Those within the justice system that pride themselves in bringing forward programs and working with individuals that have come in conflict with the law are frustrated that they are not given enough time before the individual is released to effectively implement the program.

December 6, 2007 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 467 Again, this government wants to bring forward even more legislation here, although, as I've stated before, it is well intended. There are not the resources in place even to deal today with current legislation, current laws of Manitoba, because it is noted that the wait times for judicial resolution to child abuse cases here in Manitoba have risen from a five-month wait to six months in 2006, which are the latest figures that we've been able to acquire. As I said, this is the most serious of crimes, those crimes committed against children.

Those are the most vulnerable in our society. I am one that wants to make absolutely certain that resources that are needed are definitely provided to care for those that need care and those that need protection, and those that have been abused have the resources, not only to convict and rehabilitate those that have caused this grief, but to work with the children, the victims of crime, to make certain that they are given all of the necessary and required supports to bring their lives back together again. Now, Mr. Speaker, we all look to wanting to make this a better place for not only o

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-2-13b
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 2nd hansardpdf 13b.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	269a928671c67c2a7ec505491802dee77015f81f

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