Manitoba Hansard — 11 December 2000 (Sitting 5, 37th Legislature, 2nd Session)

37-2-5

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Second Session - Thirty-Seventh Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LI No.5- 1:30 p.m., Monday, December 11, 2000 ISSN 0542-5492

Member AGLUGUB, Cris ALLAN, Nancy ASHTON, Steve, Hon. ASPER, Linda BARREIT, Becky, Hon. CALDWELL, Drew, Hon. CERILLI, Marianne CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. CUMMINGS, Glen DACQUA v; Louise DERKACH, Leonard DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary, Hon. DRIEDGER, Myrna DYCK, Peter ENNS, Harry FAURSCHOU, David FRIESEN, Jean, Hon. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. GILLESHAMMER, Harold HEL WER, Edward HICKES, George JENNISSEN, Gerard KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie LATHLIN, Oscar, Hon. LAURENDEAU, Marcel LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. LOEWEN, John MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. MAGUIRE, Larry MALOWA Y, Jim MARTINDALE, Doug McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. MIHYCHUK, MaryAnn, Hon.

MITCHELSON, Bonnie MURRAY, Stuart NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom PENNER, Jack PENNER, Jim PITURA, Frank PRAZNIK, Darren REID, Daryl REIMER. Jack ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. ROCAN, Denis RONDEAU, Jim SALE, Tim, Hon. SANTOS, Conrad SCliELLENBERG, Harry SCliULER, Ron SELINGER, Greg, Hon. SMITH, Joy SMITll, Scott STEFANSON, Heather STRUTHERS, Stan TWEED, Mervin WOWCHUK, Rosano, Hon. MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Seventh Legislature Constituency The Maples St. Vital Thompson Riel Inkster Brandon East Radisson Kildonan Ste.

Rose Seine River Russell Selkirk Concordia Charleswood Pembina Lakeside Portage Ia Prairie Wolseley River Heights Minnedosa Gimli Point Douglas Flin Flon St. James The Pas St. Norbert La Verendrye Fort Whyte St. Johns Arthur-Virden Elmwood Burrows Lord Roberts Minto River East Kirkfield Park Interlake Emerson Steinbach Morris Lac du Bonnet Transcona Southdale Rupertsland Carman Assiniboia Fort Rouge Wellington Rossmere Springfield St. Boniface Fort Garry Brandon West Tuxedo Dauphin-Roblin Turtle Mountain Swan River Political Affiliation N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P.

N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. Lib. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. P.C. P.C. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P. P.C. N.D.P.

139 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, December 11, 2000 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Health Centre Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Will iam Hrynkow, Mary Hrynkow, Joe Kowalski and others, praying that the Legis lative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) and the Fi rst Minister (Mr. Doer) instruct the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority to end its plans to remove the Health Centre at 10 8 Bond Street from Transcona and to consider finding existing space in downtown Transcona.

READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Health Centre Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable Member for Charleswood (Mrs. Driedger) and it complies with the rules and practices of the House. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? Some Honourable Members: Yes. Mr. Speaker: Will the Clerk please read.

Health Centre Madam Clerk (Patricia Chaychuk): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba, humbly sheweth: THAT the Health Centre, located in downtown Transcona at 10 8 Bond Street, is an important government service to the community of Transcona and surrounding areas; and THAT the said Health Centre is centrally located, close to major bus routes, and therefore convenient to the people, with its community based services of Pre-natal and Post-natal care, Public Nurse consultations, Immunizations, Vaccinations, and Mental Health services; and THAT the said Health Centre also contains the admini strative support for home care in the area, with home care workers reporting in and out of the centre; and THAT the loss of the Health Centre would be a major economic set back to the commercial well being of downtown Transcona and the entire Transcona community; and THAT the people of Transcona were not consulted prior to the Provincial Government making the decision to relocate the Health Centre and that the plan for its relocation to a 'strip mall dis trict' runs contrary to all concepts of community development; and THAT there is plenty of space in downtown Transcona for the construction of a permanent facili ty or for the leasing of new space or for the expansion and renovation of the existing facili ty.

WHEREFORE YOUR PETITIONERS HUMBLY PRAY THAT the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba request that the Minister of Health and the First Minister of Manitoba immediately instruct the Winnipeg Regional Health Authority to end its plans to remove the Health Centre at 108 Bo nd Street from Transcona and instead direct the WRHA to consider finding existing space in downtown Transcona, since much space exists, for both their short term and long term facility needs. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs): Mr.

Speaker, I am pleased to table the 19 99-2000 Annual Report for the Department of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, the 19 99-2000 Annual Report for Companies Of fice, the 19 99-2000 Annual Report for Vital Statistics Agency, the 19 99-

14 0 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 11 , 2000 2000 Annual Report for the Property Registry Agency, the 19 99-2000 Annual Report for the Manitoba Securities Commissi on, the 19 99 Annual Report for the Automobile Injury Compensation Appeal Commission, the 19 99 Annual Report for the Residential Tenancies Branch, and the 19 99 Annual Report for the Residential Tenancies Commission, all copies of which have been previously distributed. *( 13 :35) Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I draw the attention of all honourable members to the gallery where we have with us from Springs Christian Academy 44 Grade 9 students under the direction of Mr. Brad Dowler. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Minister of Fi nance (Mr. Selinger). Also in the gallery we have from Pilot Mound School 15 Grades 11 and 12 students under the direction of Ms. Donnalea Popple. This school is located in the constituency of the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today.

ORAL QUESTION PERIOD Physician Resources Recruitment/Retention Strategy Mr. Stuart Murray (Leader of the Official Opposition): Last week this Government released a poll that stated that more than two thirds of Manitobans thought the health care they received either has not improved or had gotten worse. When one considers that this Fi rst Minister promised to fix it all in six months, and in light of the fact that our nursing shortage has doubled, waiting lists are longer, and the doctor shortage is growing, it is no wonder Manitobans are not satisfied.

In fact, 14 months ago the then Leader of the Opposition promised Manitobans that he had a solid plan to keep and attract doctors. I took this off the Web site and it said: A solid plan to keep and attract doctors: People do not expect mi racles from government, but they do expect quality health care for themselves and their families when they need it. This plan will achieve that, he said. Can the Fi rst Minister explain to Manitobans why he has failed to release his physician resource plan for over a year? What is he waiting for? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): There are a number of inaccuracies in the

preamble of the member opposite. Today there are no members of the public in the hallways of our Winnipeg hospitals. I want to congratulate all the staff who deserve the credit because over the whole weekend we went from an average of 54 patients in the first week in December to a situation that has improved, not a hundred percent perfect but definitely improved. In 19 93 members opposite, in fact I believe a person who has been hired by the Leader of the Opposition to be a consultant on public issues, Mr. Orchard, reduced the number of people in the University of Manitoba's medical school.

It reduced them by about 25 percent, the number of students admitted to the university. Now 19 93 and seven years is 2000. We would be graduating 25 more doctors a year if we did not have Tory cutbacks. We plan to do better and rein state more of our young people into our medical schools for the benefit of all Manitoba patients. * (13 :40) Mr. Murray: While the First Minister likes to talk positively about the health poll and all the things that they are purportedly doing, the fact of lif e is-[interjection] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Murray: Mr.

Speaker, apparently they want to applaud the fact that two thirds of Manitobans are still not satisfied with health care. I might remind the First Minister that he promised to solve it all in six months. In light of recent media reports that indi cate that the doctor shortage is so significa nt that it is more difficult to access a doctor today than it was a year ago, in light of the fact that one

December 11 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 141 Winnipeg clinic is closing and another is threatening closure, what guarantee does the Fi rst Minister give to Manitobans in need that they will finally be able to see a family doctor when they need one? Mr. Doer: I think it is important to know that the material that was released by the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomia

k) last week provided useful informat ion to the public. It provided some positives and negatives in terms of where we are from a year ago . We also know that there was informat ion made availabl e to us, for example, that not enough people knew about the Health Links 24-hour-a-day referral service that could reduce pressure on prima ry care and primary care could reduce pressure on the more acute care in the emergency wards in our communities. We think the informa tion is valuable management inf ormation in terms of what we can do better with our communities.

We know and Manitobans know that when you run a system into the ground for 10 years, it is going to take a lit tle time to repair it. Manitobans know that it takes a few years to graduate a doctor, that when you make a wrong decision seven years ago, you start paying for it seven years later. They are not so short term as the member opposite not to understand that when you cut doctors in admission seven years ago, you are going to pay for it seven years later. That is your consultant that did it, not our consultant.

Manitobans also know that when you elimin ate the RN program and you fire a thousand nurses, you are going to have a shortage of nurses. They know that you just do not add water and stir and mix, it takes two years, three years, or four years to train a nurse, and we are doing it, and more so the members opposite. Thirdly, I think the member opposite should know that in 19 98 the number of residents in family medicine were reduced by the former government from 32 to 24. Shame on you. Mr. Murray: I am delighted to hear all of those things. They claim that seven years ago something happened.

I would like to remind them that the critic of Health has been the Minister of Health now with the critic for seven years. Surely during that time he must have understood and would have brought forward some kind of a plan. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Murray: Thank you, Mr. Spea ker.

At the very outset of the 19 99 election, the then-Leader of the Opposition stated and I will quote from this particular piece of paper, which I am sure he is aware of, and it says: Manitobans all across the province are tired of excuses about why things cannot be done. * (13 :45) Can the Fi rst Minister please li sten to his own words and, instead of making excuses, will he tell Manitobans in search of a family physician how long they will have to wait for him to follow through on one of the commitments he made during the 19 99 election campaign? Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, Manitobans know the situation that they were faced with 15 months ago, and that is why they knew they needed a change in direction, a change in priorities, and a change in government, and that is what took place. There are 45 more family physicia ns today than there was a year ago. Secondly, the number of residencies that have been decreased by members opposite, that will be reversed by this Minister of Health (Mr. Chomiak) and this Government.

The cutbacks that were made into admissions, the reductions that were made to the admissions of the University of Manitoba Faculty of Medicine were criticized by us because it lacked a plan. It lacked a vision. It lacked anything beyond the next couple of weeks in budgets. It was driven by Jules Benson, and some of the members opposite will know him. It totally lacked a vision for Manitobans and its future. We are going to reverse the decline of students in the medical school, just like we did with nurses. We are going to return hope to our

14 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 11 , 2000 young people so they can train to be nurses and doctors and live and work and raise a family here in Manitoba. Winnipeg Regional Health Authority Deficit Mrs. Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): In the 2000-2001 Manitoba Budget, the members opposite said, and I quote: Our Budget reali stically funds the quality health care services we need, and they asserted that health authorities will have their budgets based on a stable funding formula and they must avoid deficits. They must avoid deficits.

Can the Minister of Health explain why the WRHA is currently running a $38-milli on deficit? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, as is so often the case with the member opposite, she was wrong last week when she provided inf ormation in this Chamber. She is wrong again this morning. She was wrong again with respect to the inf ormation she is providing.

All I would like to say to members opposite is that we have received a lot of credit from regional health authorities this year for actually getting budgets out ahead of time, for working with regional health authorities to provide them with the inf ormation. We are working with them as we continue through the process to try to balance the Budget, which we did last year, and which we will do this year. Mrs. Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Minister of Health could explain what he intends to do about the $38-million deficit that the WRHA is running, considering he, himself , and his Premier (Mr.

Doer) indica ted that deficits are not allowed and, according to their second quarter financial statements in black and white in the second-quarter statement from the WRHA, they are showing a $38-million deficit. Mr. Chomiak: Mr. Speaker, first off we are working with all of the health authorities. The inf ormation the member has, I think she has it inaccurate, even though it was FOI to the member opposite, unlike what happened over the past 10 years when that inf ormation was not provided to the public. Having said that, like so much else, members opposite, they oppose the nursing program.

Yet now we are training more nurses than ever, and they opposed it. They reduced the number of doctors. Now that we are increasing doctors this week, they oppose it. She is wrong again with respect to her figures. We intend to have a balanced year end, unlike members opposite who at this time last year had a deficit of $17 2 million. * (13 :50) Mrs. Driedger: I wonder if the Minister of Health could indica te for me now then whether or not the documents from the WRHA are inaccura te. Is he accusing them of putting forward inaccurate second-quarter financia l statements? Mr. Chomiak: Mr.

Speaker, what I am indi cating is last week the member brought inaccurate inf ormation to this House when she said she had e-mailed a letter to our office. She was wrong when she talked about the closure of beds at the Health Sciences Centre. She was wrong when she opposed the nurses program. They are wrong when they oppose the doctors' retention program. It is not the WRHA I have a problem with; it is the accuracy of claims that are brought forward by members opposite. I want to say, Mr.

Speaker, we are working with all the health authorities with a consistent program of a number of initiatives to deal with all of the budgets. This year we have done far better than has been done in a decade with respect to deficits and with respect to bala ncing and dealing with budgets for first year. We have new programs in place. We are continuing the initiatives, a whole series of initiatives that we have launched with all the health authorities and we will deal with that. We intend to have a balanced year end with respect to all of the health authorities. First Nations Casinos Minister's Involvement Mr.

Jack Reimer (Southdale): Mr. Speaker, since day one the entire Aboriginal casino issue has been misma naged by this Government. It has

December 11 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 14 3 been misma naged by the first Gaming Minister and now by the second Gaming Minister. You can see what has happened to the residents of Headin gley and the Swan Lake First Nation. I am sure that we will be moving on to a third Gaming Minister. Mr. Speaker, the Premier (Mr. Doer) was part of this mism anagement. Can he explain to this House why he allowed his minis ter to raise the hopes and the expectations of the Swan Lake Fi rst Nation for eight months if , as he said, the deal was dead in April? Hon.

Steve Ashton (Minister charged with the administration of The Gaming Control Act): Of course it is very easy for the Conservatives to talk about process with Aborigina l gaming, because one of the dif ficulties we face in this province is the Opposition when they were in Government sat and did nothing in terms of Aborigina l gaming, ignored the Bostrom report. Issues like the VL Ts, never once worried about community input until they had increased the VL Ts 23 times over the space of one decade.

I say to members opposite that when we came into Government there was a real opportunity to work with First Nations to change that. No one is denying that we had to go through a learning process, but that is far better than no process at all under the Conservative s. Minister Responsible for Gaming Control Act Resignation Request Mr. Jack Reimer (Southdale): Maybe if he spoke a little slower we would hear the answer, but, Mr.

Speaker, a final supplementary to the Premier: Knowing how badly the current minis ter has bungled his gaming responsibilities, will he now remove this Minister of Gaming from his responsibilities, just as he removed the first min ister. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): No, Mr. Speaker. Former Minister Responsible for Gaming Control Act Resignation Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Mr.

Speaker, I know that the Premier wants to put on the most positive face that he can in order to protect one of his minis ters who totally and completely failed in his responsibilities, but what is happening here is that we want all Manitobans to have all of the informat iion. My question is to the Premier. Will he confirm for this House that the confli ct-of interest charges against this first Gaming Minister came to light on June 26, 2000 and that his first Gaming Minister then resigned on July 4? Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): I will take those dates as notice. * (13 :55) Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, I would li ke to table a copy of the Hansard of June 26, 2000. I would li ke to also table the news release that was put out by the Government on July 4. I would also like to table for the House today the contract between the Government of Manitoba and Mr. Erk Luke and Associates. I might just add that Mr. Luke's contract says that the minis ter should report to the Minister of Hig hways on June 21. Mr. Speaker, I would like to now ask the Premier to explain why it is that although his first Gaming Minister did not resign until July 4, as of June 21, Mr. Luke was reporting to the Member for Thompson (Mr.

Ashton). Why was he not reporting to the Member for La Verendrye (Mr. Lemi eux)? Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: Yes, I will look at the specifics, but the reporting was as indica ted to the House at the time. Mr. Derkach: Mr. Speaker, can the Premier explain to Manitobans then why when I asked the question on June 26 as to removing his first Minister of Gaming th(: Premier said no, when in fact this had already happened? Was he misleading the people of Manitoba, or does he not know what goes on in his own Cabinet and in his own Government?

14 4 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 11 ,2000 Mr. Doer: Well, I will check in terms of the dates, Mr. Speaker, because I know that there were discussions at the admini strative level with Mr. Luke to deal with the implementation. Mr. Speaker, I recall very clearly at the end of June, prior to July 4, urging publicly and privately to the minis ter responsible for the Aboriginal casinos that he was not in a conflic t of interest, that in fact even though he was receiving a-[interjection] Well, again, members opposite want to put false inf ormation on the record.

The Minister of Gaming came to me and said the allegations being made against him and his spouse were causing a great deal of concern and strain on his spouse. For those reasons, in spite of the fact that he was not in a conflict of interest, he asked that his status be changed. I urged him not to leave. I urged him not to go bow to the kinds of attacks that were being made by members opposite. Subsequent to that, there was a legal opinion obtained because we could not get a legal opinion directly because the person who had been hired by the previous government was a partner with Mr.

Freedman, who was involved in the independent process, so we got a lawyer that was working for the commissioner in British Columbia , Mr. Hughes, and he said clearly the minis ter was never in a conflict of interest, Mr. Speaker. * (14 :00) Environmental Hazards Community Notification Mr. Darren Praznik (Lac du Bonnet): Mr. Spea ker, my question is for the Premier. In March of 19 94, the then-Abitibi-Price mill at Pine Falls experienced a spill of Bussan 52 [phonetic] into the Winnipeg River and failed to immedia tely notif y either the Department of Environment or the downstream community.

This resulted in charges rightly being laid by the provincial Department of Environment. I want to ask the First Minister (Mr. Doer) at this time if he believes that it is essential and impo rtant for communities that are downstream of chemical spills to be notified when those communities draw their drinking water from the river or the stream or the lake that has been contaminated. Does he believe that is impor tant? Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): Mr.

Speaker, in response to the member's question, of course everybody on this side, as I am sure it is for everybody on that side, is very concerned about the environment, protection of the environment, that we take proactive measures in order that the environment be protected, but more im portantly, of course, we are concerned about the health and well being of people who reside near industries like Pine Falls. So of course we place a very, very high impor tance on preventative measures in order that the people downstream mig ht be protected. Mr. Praznik: My supplementary to the mi nister .

Can the mi nister then tell this House why, when the Poin te du Bois Generating Station owned by the Ci ty of Winnipeg experienced an explosion of a transformer on the 26th of October and dumped 12 00 gallons of oil into the Winnipeg River, no notification was provided to any of the downstream communities that draw their water out of the Winnipeg River? Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Speaker, I do not have inf ormation on hand in regard to the member's questi on, but I will endeavour to look into it today and tomorrow and get back to him in a very short while. Mr. Praznik: Mr.

Speaker, at this time I would like to table memos from both the Town of Lac du Bonnet and the Local Government Dis trict of Pi nawa that confirm that neither of those communities whose main source of water is the Winnipeg River-and I can tell him, if he checks with the Seven Sis ters Water Co-op, Whitemouth or even any of the users in the Whiteshell Provincial Park for which he is responsible, that none of them were notified by his department of this spill in the Winnipeg River. I would ask him why such a failu re to notif y people when their source of drinking water faced a potential contamina tion. Mr.

Lathlin: Mr. Speaker, as I have previously noted to the member, I am very much concerned

December 11 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 14 5 that we protect the environment, lives of people and that industry follow the rules and regulations that have been set for them. For that reason, I again would like to advise the member that I am going to look into this myself and get the answers that are required, and if regulations have been breached, then we will take the necessary action. Knapp Dam and Pump Station Status Report Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, last week I asked the Minister of Conservation about the Knapp Dam in The Pas, but he seemed to have some diffi culty in providing inf ormation. Will the Minister of Conservation today tell this House whether the Knapp Dam and Pump Station near The Pas, which were due to be completed in August, have by now fully passed all tests and are fully operational? Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): Mr. Speaker, the project in The Pas is slated to be commissioned in the early spring.

I do not know where the member is getting his informa tion from, but I am advised that the project is slated for completion in the early spring. Mr. Gerrard: I understand that initia lly it was supposed to be due in August. On Friday the minis ter mentioned that there were some problems, and I would ask the mini ster whether the problems which have been associa ted with the completion of the Knapp Dam are due to the fact that the concrete was produced by a company which did not have its full certification through the Manitoba Ready-Mixed Concrete Associa tion. Mr.

Lathlin: Yes, I noted the member's questions regarding the project in The Pas. I think I have advised him already in his previous questioning that, yes, there had been a minor problem, but a problem that can be usually rectified. There is no problem to the structural integrity of the dam, so therefore I am satisfied that the project is not in danger. There is no problem to the structure.

I want to also advise the member that if there are indeed any serious problems, any structural defects, then of course I would be interested in talking to the general contractor and the consultant who administered the contract to see where the problems are but also to make the contractor accountable if there are any serious deficiencies in design. Mr. Gerrard: I ask the mi nis ter whether there was politica l interf erence in the award ing of the contract which resulted in these problems, as I understand that Mr.

Eric Hutchison of Cochrane Engineering, who was involved in setting the specifications, inf ormed a certified contractor in The Pas that he would be recommending that United general contracting purchase the concrete from a certified plant, and yet they failed to do so. Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Sp•;!aker, as far as I know, there was no politica l interf erence. Urban Capital Projects Funding-St. Vital Streetscaping Ms. Nancy Allan (St. Vital): My question is to the Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs.

The Urban Cap ital Projects Allocation III is a provincia l capital funding program which provides support for infrastructure and enhancement projects. The provincia l funding flows directly to the Ci ty of Winnipeg. Could the Minister of Intergovernmental Aff airs clarif y whether or not our province has flowed any money to the old St. Vital in my constituency and whether or not our province contributed any money to that project? I know that I would appreciate that being clarif ied. There is some concern in my constituency.

As well, it has been raised with me by my colleague across the floor, the former Minister of Urban Affairs and the MLA for Southdale (Mr. Reimer). Hon. Jean Friesen (Minister of Intergovernmental Affairs): Yes, I am pleased to provide some detail on this program. It is part of the UCP III program that we fund join tly with the City of Winnipeg, and I am pleased to advise that we do continue to work co-operatively with the City on many of these issues. The St. Anne's-St. Mary's roads street scaping project came in at $300,000. It was

14 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 11 , 2000 divided between the Province paying $14 5,500 and the Ci ty which paid $1 54,500. Water Resources Water Management Review Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Mr. Speaker, during Estimates this past summer the need for a comprehensive approach to dealing with drainage and water management was discussed at great length. The Conservation Minister promised that this fall, as soon as the House was out, the Government would review water management in a comprehensive way.

Will the Minister of Conservation explain why his promised review of and consultations on water management have never materiali zed? Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): recall the meetings that the member is ref erring to and, yes, he is correct in saying that we had made a commitment not only in Estima tes but also during the public hearings process that we were arranging to have a consultative process going in the late fall. I believe that process has been arranged, and I think it is just a matter of a short while now before we get proceeding on holding those hearings. Mr. Maguire: Mr.

Spea ker, the mm1ster has indica ted that there will be meetings coming. Well, we had those on The Wildlif e Act, as well, after the fact. Can he now announce when the series of meetings will be held, and will they include the creation of watershed management di stricts? * (14 :10 ) Mr. Lathlin: Mr. Speaker, you know, as I have poin ted out to the members opposite before, we have some huge challenges in the area of drainage in Manitoba and mostly because the drainage work had not been done for quite a long period of time.

So when we came into office, the first thing we had to do was to identif y where the main problems were and then try and come up with a strategy as to how to resolve some of the very, very serious problems that we have in drainage in Manitoba. Water Resources Drainage Application Processing Mr. Larry Maguire (Arthur-Virden): Well, Mr. Speaker, I am glad to see that the min ister has some concern about the amount of drainage. Can he tell this House how long it takes his department- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. The honourable Government House Leader, on a point of order. Point of Order Hon.

Gord Mackintosh (Government House Leader): Yes. Well, the member is now in a second supplementary question. Of course, supplementary questions require no

preamble. Mr. Speaker, would you please remind him of that. Mr. Speaker: On the point of order raised by the honourable Government House Leader, he does have a point of order. I would like to take this opportunity to remind all honourable members that Beauchesne's Citation 409(2) advises that a supplementary question should not require a

preamble. *** Mr. Speaker: I would ask the honourable member to please put his question. Mr. Maguire: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. How long does it take the minis ter's department to process a typical drainage application from an indivi dual or from a munici pal ity? Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): Mr. Speaker, since I have become Conservation Minister, not a week goes by that I am not confronted with the issue of drainage problems in Manitoba, and there is a very good reason for that . We have a backlog of requests for maintenance, for media tion, for

December 11 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 14 7 fixing of the problem. We are working dilig ently trying to correct the problem. So I would advise the member that, given the seriousness of the situation that we are faced with, it is going to take some time to fix it. Manitoba Hydro Selkirk Generating Station Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): To the Minister of Conservation. Mr.

Speaker, the guiding premise of li cence No. 16 45RR is, and I quote: "The Selkirk Thermal Generating Sta tion is to be used to provide security of power supply for Manitoba." Has the Minister of Conservation declared a power emergency in the province of Manitoba by forcing the director of enviro nmental lic ensing to approve the station's continued use? Hon. Oscar Lathlin (Minister of Conservation): Mr. Speaker, I do not go out there to force anybody to issue a licence.

I believe my job as the Conservation Minister is to provide inf ormation to the proponent and also to provide as much informat ion as possible to the people who are concerned with the well-being of the environment and indeed their health. So I believe that is what my job is, and I will continue to do that to the best of my ability. Mr. Schuler: To the Minister of Conservati on: Can he advise the House when he will be making public details of Manitoba's pending power crisis, including af fected areas, backup plans for medical centres, and what Manitobans should be doing for the duration of this crisis ?

Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): You mig ht want to hear the answer. Mr. Speaker, we have been advised by Hydro and by officia ls through the Minister of Conservation, it covers both areas, that from 19 97 on the Selkirk Generating Station was producing energy beyond the requirements for just reliability. The mini ster has worked with Hydro. Fi rst of all, there is absolutely no question that the lic ensing people in the Department of Environment are responsible for enforcing the licence without any interf erence from the Cabinet and the government of the day. Secondly, Mr.

Speake:r, we are advised by Hydro, through the min ister, that they have decreased the utilization of that plant to conf orm with the lic ensing requirement that, if we are to be straight up in this House, should have been complied with from '97, '98, '99, and the year 2000. We believe that the: long-term issues of that plant, whose licence expires the year 2005, is a matter that is before Hydro now.

I would note though that since we have formed Government we� have announced that a gas turbine operation will be in Brandon, I believe on line for the year 2003, to provide greater reliability for the hydro system in a clean way. Mr. Schuler: Mr. Speaker, then could I ask the Fi rst Minister or the Minister of Conservation (Mr. Lathlin) if they would please table the informat ion that was provided to them by Manitoba Hydro laying out the crisis that would allow the Selkir k hydro generation plant to continue to run by more than 10 percent of capacity?

Would they please table that inf ormation so that Manitobans know what kind of power crisis they are going to face this winter? Mr. Doer: Yes, Mr. Speaker, the Minister responsible for Hydro has worked with Hydro to ensure that the capacity of the plant, which was very high in '97, '98, and '99 is now within the environm ental licence as it should be. Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Questions has expired. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Miles Macdonelll Provincial Boys Volleyball Championship Mr. Harry Schellenberg (Rossmere): Mr. Speaker, I want to take this opportunity to recognize the Miles Macdonell Collegia te

14 8 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 11 , 2000 Buckeyes boys volleyball team for winning the AAAA Provincia l Boys Volleyball champ ionship. Last Friday, at the Miles Macdonell Collegia te, I had the honour of presenting the Sports Manitoba Order of Excellence medals to this championship team. Over 10 00 enthusiastic students, along with coaches and teaching staff, attended this event in the school gym where the student body gave each player a strong appl ause.

I would like to recognize and congratulate each team member by lis ting the players' names, which are as follows: Aron Manuel, Joshua Klassen, Aleen Savangsengouthay, Alan Savangsengouthay, Kevin Krasowski, Curtis Kohinski, Darren Zacharias, Gavin Panchuk, Tim Mazur, Chad Stasiuk, Oliver Manuel, Colin Lane, Damian Bia lkoski, Chris Campbell, and Assi stant Coaches Ian McDonald and Frank Klassen, and Head Coach Bria n Straub. Mr. Speaker, I would like to point out that the Miles Macdonell Collegia te Buckeyes have won many provincia l volleyball championships throughout its history.

If you visit the Miles Macdonell Collegia te gym, you will not only see many provinc ial volleyball pennants but a cross

section of pennants that include many sports. I would also like to congratulate the players for the discipline, character and sportsmanship they di splayed throughout the season and in the provincia l championship tournament. Mr. Speaker, I would like to commend Mr. Brian Straub for his fine coaching, which brought out the best in these young players. He not only taught them volleyball skills, but he instilled good character and sportsmanship in his players. Again, congratulations to this championship team for their achievement. Thank you. * (14: 20) Health Care System Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): From September 27 to October 11 , 2000, this Government commissioned a poll of 12 05 Manitobans about their attitudes and opinions on Manitoba's health care system. Mr. Speaker, 66.3 percent of Manitobans polled, that is, over two-thirds of the respondents, stated that they think that the health care system is either the same or worse. In fact, when asked about their level of satisf action with the health care system, only 16 .2 percent of Manitobans ind icated that they were very satisfied.

Although the members opposite are attempting to convince Manitobans that they have improved the health care system, in fact this Government has failed to keep its health care promises, and this poll confirms that over two-thirds of Manitobans feel that the members across the way have done nothing or have made health care worse since coming to offi ce. The reality is that the nursing shortage has nearly doubled, waiting lists have not been reduced under the misma nagement of this Government, and clinics are closing because there are not enough doctors.

In fact, due to a shortage of doctors, only eight family doctors are accepting new patients. Manitobans deserve a government with a clear plan for Manitoba's health care system, one which does not make irresponsible promises which it knows it cannot keep. Dakota Collegiate Evening for Seniors Ms. Linda Asper (Riel): Last year the Dakota Collegia te Parent Association hosted its first evening for seniors, which was very well received. The event began as a community outreach in the Year of the Senior that resulted in many positive awar ds. On November 28 this year, my colleague from St. Vi tal (Ms.

Allan) and I participated in the second annual evening for seniors. The school gymnasium was tra nsformed into a festive gathering where students performed a community service promoting volunteerism within the school. Students' ta lents were showcased through an art display, band and choral entertainment and refreshments. This evening of seniors interacting with students in an evening of fun is another step of breaking down some stereotypes held by the

December 11 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 14 9 dif ferent generations. With the help of Dakota Collegiate parents and staff, the young people served donated baking and distributed a number of door prizes to the local seniors. Toes were tapping all over the gym as the students shared their music and songs. Congratulations to the Dakota Collegiate Parent Association, including Pam MacKay and Diane Rainka, co-chairs Ron Guarino, principal, and his staff, and all the student volunteers who made this evening a real delight. May this evening of fun continue in the years to come. Thank you.

Kleefeld School Opening Mr. Jim Penner (Steinbach): Mr. Speaker, on September 28 of this year, I was proud to join with hundreds of residents from the area for the official opening of the new $5-million kindergarten to senior Kleefeld School. This project, which was an in itiative of the former government, has raised the bar for modem education in our province and has given the schoolchild ren of Kleefeld perhaps the most modem school in all of Manitoba.

In addition to a 4800-s quare-foot gymnasium and a 21 00-square-foot li brary that serves as the facili ty's centrepiece, the school offers the latest in technology with the computer lab and two science rooms. When students arrived this year for their first day of classes, gone was the former school which had been built in 19 73 and which was outdated and bursting at the seams. In its place, they were welcomed to a school that was bright, spacious and which encouraged learning. Members on this side of the House realize that successf ul education requires sound instruction as well as a sound learning environment.

We recognize the need to give our students every advantage by ensuring they have the technology training to be successful after their years of formal education. The Kleef eld School is above all else a tribute to the community and residents of the Kleefeld area. Their dedica tion to the educa tion of their child ren and to this project has been remarkable. The pride that they have in their child ren and their region was on full disp lay as students sang and parti cipa ted in the official opening ceremonies.

I would like to make special mention of Principal Kelly Barkman, his staff and the trustees and admini stration of the Hanover School Division and of course to the students of Kleef eld School, the first class of the new school. I wish them all well as they pursue their studies and their dreams in a facility they should be proud to call their own. Rural Manitoba Economy Mr. Stan Struthers (Dauphin-Roblin): Mr. Speaker, it is my pleasure to speak today of the measures this Government has taken to address the well-being of the people and the economy of rural Manitoba.

The Throne Speech testifies to the very fact that the state of rural Manitoba has been and will continue to be of great importance to this Government. We have moved to provide greater stability to Manitoba's farm community. In consultation with the public, we are building on existing industry regulations and programs through the Livestock Stewardship Initia tive to ensure that the industry grows in a sustainable manner. With Project 2000, we have committed to easing the transition from farming to retirement and to enabling a younger generation to move into agriculture.

We have imp lemented new crop insurance and reduced premiums to assist farmers facing continued low prices for grains and oilseeds; this along with the enhancements to the 19 99 AIDA program and the $70 million spent by the Province in aid last year. We have made major efforts to help Manitoba farmers adjust to the elim ination of transportation subsidies during a period of low commodity prices. Furthermore, we will rei nstate the rural farm stress line to provide counselling, support, inf ormation and refen als. This Government has made available RN, LPN and RPN refresher courses to rural nurses.

We have enhanced physician recruitment and retention plans, and we will move to equalize rural and northern hydro rates, a real benefit to rural citizens.

15 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 11 , 2000 Premier Doer and our Government have moved to improve inf rastructure and services to rural communities by committing $17 7 million in our Budget for construction and maintenance of roads, bridges and other transportation links. We are supporting rural gasification projects. Already construction has begun on a $7.3- million pipeline for the Interlake communities. These measures and commitments speak to the unquestionable respect and sense of obligation our Government has to serving the people of rural Manitoba.

ORDERS OF THE DA Y THRONE SPEECH DEBATE (Fourth Day of Debate) Mr. Speaker: Adjourned debate on the proposed motion of the honourable Member for Dauphin-Roblin (Mr. Struthers) and the proposed motion of the honourable Leader of the Of ficial Opposition (Mr. Murray) in amendment thereto, standing in the name of the honourable Member for Turtle Mountain (Mr. Tweed), who has 39 minutes remaining. Mr. Mervin Tweed (Turtle Mountain): As always, I am certainly pleased to stand and put a few words on the record in response to the Throne Speech.

I took the Throne Speech home with me, and I was reading it and I was trying to find some of the detail and some of the thoughts that were emanating from the new government. Lo and behold, instead of speaking to the Throne Speech itself , I had to extend my congratulatory notes so that I could fill in the time. It seems like there is so li ttle in the document itself of any real value. I do want to recognize, Mr. Speaker, the new faces around the Legis lature.

We certainly are utilizing and seeing the great work of the six legislative interns and, also, a new group of pages that come and enjoy the experience of working in the Legislature and learning some of the rules that sometimes tend to get stretched, if not broken. I also want to say hello to the staff that we have not seen for a long time and wish them well in the holida y season.

The Throne Speech is about a vision of the province, and I do want to just comment a little bit about the communities and the constituency of Turtle Mountain, one of the areas in rural southern Manitoba, I would suggest, that are truly flourishing. We have taken advantage of some of the opportunities that were presented in the previous years from past governments and are now seeing the benefits of the fruits of those labours. We have seen huge growth in the in land grain terminal industry in the communities that I represent.

We have seen a large growth in the livestock indu stry, particularly hogs, but not specific to hogs. The cattle industry has certainly grown and continues to flourish and do well in the province of Manitoba. As well, many of the people in the communities are seeking and finding second and third opportunities to create income and wealth generation on the farms, and I think in Turtle Mountain, parti cularly, we are seeing a stabiliz ation of the communities and perhaps are starti ng to inch forward in our progress. * (14: 30) Mr.

Speaker, I would be remiss if I did not congratulate the two newest members of the Legis lature. The results are in, in my mind they are final, and they are solid in the fact that we talked about the NDP government recently doing a poll to study how Manitobans feel about health care. I can tell you that the people that we talked to going door to door and the people that voted in the election gave a very clear message to the people of Manitoba how they feel about health care and how this new Government is dealing with it.

If I am correct in my numbers, I am told that the NDP have moved from second pla ce in those two constituencies in the 19 99 election down to third place, with substantially lower numbers. I think that is the message that this Government fails to see is what they are doing and what they are implem enting are not things that the people in the province of Manitoba agree with or are happy about.

I think for them to spend the thousands of dollars on creating and defining a poll that would satisf y their needs, it certainly pales in comparison to some of the things that they could and should be doing in the particular areas of health care. I think that what

December 11 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 151 people are seeing is that they are recognizing this Government for what they are. They are a government without a vision, without a plan. They only represent the special interest groups and I would suggest in the long term are not working for the betterment of all Manitobans. It is something that we saw coming, and we see it inching forward more and more every day. I think the people in the province of Manitoba are becoming more and more aware of it and are becoming more and more di senchanted.

I would say the wheels have come off Ci nderella's coach as far as this Government's honeymoon period. It is over. Mr. Speaker, I first want to talk a little bit about the health care that was so obviously not in the Throne Speech that we heard the other day. For a government that spent thousands, probably milli ons of dollars trumpeting to the province that we could solve health care, that we could solve the nursing shortage, we could solve the doctor issues by a wave of our wand, trust us, we can do it in six months, what do we see today? We see nothing has chang ed. We see wait ing lists getting longer.

I find it interesting, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education (Mr. Caldwell) chants from his chair: No one in the hallways. Let us change the criteria. When this Government does not get a result from a poll or a question that they ask, what do they do? They change the criteria of the question to get the results. We have seen it time and time again. They laugh at the people of Manitoba and think that they are not paying attention, not hearing and seeing this. I am telling you, you are in for a big surprise because the people out there are becoming more and more aware of this.

They are aware of the one-line solutions, the one-line comment that seems to be so simplistic. Yes, the comment is simplistic, but the answers are far more detailed than that, and this Government has failed to recognize that and act on it. We have a Minister of Health (Mr.

Chomiak) who talks about health care in the province of Manitoba, yet totally neglects the rural regions of this province, holding many of them to ransom with their budget conditions and forces that they are putting upon these regions to amalgamate, or look at supplying differ ent services for dif ferent reasons, none other than the fact that this Government is trying to squeeze the health care. You talk about two-tier health care in this province. We have got it in rural Manitoba with the att4�ntion and the atti tude that we are getting from this Government and from this Minister of Health.

The people out there are unhappy and they are starting to voice their concerns, and they will continue to do so. I think it wiii become even more and more of an issue again as we approach the next election. We have talked about it, and people were led to believe that in six months we are going to end hallway medicine and rescue health care, yet the numbers do not suggest that. The numbers suggest something totally dif f erent, and we are seeing waiting lis ts in certain areas of services continuing to increase and people waiting longer and longer. We have talked about the Premier (Mr.

Doer) shutting the road down to the U.S. Instead, what has he done? H(: has imple mented a policy that sends more people out of the province of Manitoba today than ever before in its hi story. And I would say that is a shame. That is a broken promise, and that was a commitment that was made foolhardily, almost glibly, in his response to a question and to an issue. He convinced, the people belie ved it and so they should, but now they are certainly starting to see the truth shine through, and they are not happy with it. I want to talk a little bit about the Health Minister's (Mr. Chomia

k) abilit y to come out and meet in rural Manitoba. He has had several invitations that I am aware of in the communities that I represent and other communities that I visit in my job as the MLA for the area and representing the people. They keep saying: Where is he? Where is the minis ter? How can we get a meeting to see the minis ter and put in front of him our isswes and our concerns which we as a regional health authority board were set up and designed to do? Why is the minis ter avoiding us? Why is the minis ter not taking our calls or not responding to our concerns and to our issues? These are the questions that they will

15 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 11 , 2000 continue to ask, and I know, from attending the AMM convention in the last week, it certainly, I think, should be becoming more aware of it on the other side, on the Government side, as to what the people are thinking and what they are doing.

It is di sappointing for people to have to feel that they have to beg or they have to know somebody or that they have to somehow find a way or a means to get in and see the Minister of Health because as of today or at this point, he certainly is not trying very hard to accommodate the people in the province of Manitoba. We have a nursing shortage that continues to rise. You can have a long-term plan, if that is what you call it, to bring more people into the system, but the problem is today, and what we are seeing is long-term solutions are fine, but you do need a mid- and short-term solution.

Obviously you are walking away from it. There was a doctor recruitment plan in place that had done a tremendous job of recruiting doctors for rural and northern Manitoba. The program was changed to help in specialist cases in the city of Winnipeg and in Brandon, and it was drawing new doctors to our communities. That is the first step in solving the problem. The second issue would be on the education side, but there again we run into a situation where we are spending the province's money to train people, and we have a Fi nance Minister (Mr. Selinger) who is working against the principle. What is he doing?

What is he telling these young professionals when they graduate from the schools in the province of Manitoba? He is saying: You are good and we accept your degrees, but you cannot work here. Why can you not? Because you are going somewhere else where there is a better cli mate, a better environment, a better tax situation, where you are not the highest-taxed people in the country, and these professionals are leaving us and leaving us steadily. I think that the Fi nance Minister (Mr.

Selinger) should make a commitment to the people that he is going to lower taxes, that he is going to address those issues that make us competitive. We no longer are in an environment where we compete for business on cash giveaways and those types of incentives. We are back into the game where we are competing with every province on tax lines, and we are seeing the provinces with the lowest tax lines and the most movement, the people that are addressing these issues, the provinces that are moving the fastest forward . We are seeing it in Ontario, in Alberta.

We are even seeing it in Saskatchewan , a sister to this Government, making changes in their tax policies so that they can create the incentive for people: one, to want to stay in their province; two, when they graduate to stay and work in their province; and three, for more people to mig rate into their province. I know that the Government of the day will stand and talk about mig ration and that the influx of people are up in Manitoba.

I suggest it probably is because I would think that most of the NDP in Saskatchewan and B.C. seeing the future are heading to Manitoba for that last couple of years on the gravy train before the Government is changed again in the next provincial election.

It seems that when we talk on the education side and the Government marks their record that enrolment is up-and I think that is good-why cannot the same principle that they use for increasing enrolment, which is lower tuition fees, why cannot that same principle work in attracting business and entrepreneurs to the province and keeping our tax-paying people in our province? How do you do that? You lower the taxes.

The two go hand in hand, and it is ironic that this Government cannot recognize on one hand what they are doing in education and then defeating the purpose on the finance side with a minis ter who ref uses to talk about tax reductions. He talks about balanced taxes. Well, balanced taxes today are not moving us forward and are not moving us into a position to take advantage of all the technology and all the changes that are happ ening in our communities. What it is doing is it is forcing the best and brightest young people away from our communities.

We have had an outflux of young people from rural Manitoba, and what do they tell us? Why are they leaving rural Manitoba? They are leaving rural Manitoba because they are not seeing the opportunities. It is changing, it is growing, and I respect and make note of that.

December 11 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 3 The same thing is happening in our larger centres. Why are they leaving? They are going out to further their opportunities and because there are not the opportunities in the province of Manitoba, but, more than anything, they are leaving because there are not the incentives to stay. * (1 4:40) When we have a policy that encourages high taxation on everybody across the board, it concerns me that we are sending the wrong message.

We are sending the wrong message to the taxp ayer, who ultimately we are responsible to, that we understand the issues and that we know what the issues are, and we are prepared to address them, enhance them, change them, and make us competitive with not only Canada but with North America and indeed the world. The agriculture issue, agai n, something in the Throne Speech that was barely touched on, and it is an issue that I think all members of Government have to take seriously.

I know they pay the lip-service to it, but we are seeing areas of this province being diminis hed rapidly by the economic situations within the province not through any fault of their own. They are suffering because of a flood that devastated them years ago. It was not just yesterday or last year now. We are moving into the second year of this cycle. We have seen by the news releases, we have seen by the articles in the papers that it is not getting better. It is an issue that I think this Government has to address. They have to go out there and deal with the people and deal with the issues.

The Member for Dau phin (Mr. Struthers) got up and spoke eloquently about the programs that they put in place. What I am hearing in the communities that I represent is it is not relative to what the problems are today, and it is not dealing with the specific issues that they are facing. It is a concern. Farmers today are trying extremely hard to diversif y. They are trying to find new and alternative ways of creating income on their farms, not just by working of f the farm but by actually working and staying on the farm and taking up new ideas.

It is incumbent upon this Government to encourage that growth, to go out and help in any way that they can. I do not want the Government to do it for them, because we have seen what happens when a gov•:!rnment like this takes charge. It would be a concern of mine, but I certainly wish that they would work with them as opposed to paying them the lip-service that they do, saying that it is Ottawa' s fault, it is Ottawa' s fault, it is Ottawa' s fault. That does not put bread on the table or fuel in the machinery. It does not address it, and they continually try to avoid it. Mr.

Speaker, in pre:vious opportunities that I have had to speak in the House, I have talked about this Government, and I think it is being reflected more and more as we go into the session. I suspect over the next couple of years it will continue to elevate itself to where the public becomes aware of it, things that I am hearing out there. I think if they are not lis tening or if they are not meeting with people, perhaps they are not hearing the message, and they are not as concerned, and they do not see it as an issue.

But the people in rural, southern and northern, I suspect, Manitoba are starting to show concerns with the direction that this Government is taking. Mr. Speaker, we have had opportunity to see a casino attempt or the attempt to bring Aboriginal casinos to the province completely mis managed, from the get-go completely mis managed. People were uninf ormed. The Government put a gag on people, stopped them from getting answers that they needed, and I blame the Government for doing that.

When you put a cloak of secrecy around something and then tell them it is a public issue go deal with it-how fair is that to any person out there? We all are well-l!ducated and I think well read people. The onlly way we make good decisions in our lives is by getting inf ormation. What is the first thing this Government does say? We are going to build five new casinos in Manitoba and oh, by the way, we are not going to tell you anything about it. We are not going to tell you who is involve:d in it. We are not going to tell you until w�� have made our final approvals.

Then we will put the communities out there and let them fight and divide, not only with the Fi rst Nations commumttes that are attempting to build these casinos, but with communities within themselves, neighbour agai nst neighbour over issues.

15 4 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 11 , 2000 Mr. Harry Schellenberg, Acting Speaker , in the Chair It is not a personal issue. It is an issue that they did not get the inf ormation from this Government. This Government refused to share the plan, the vision, the opportunities that are out there. Instead, they hid. They ran and hid. Whenever questions were asked, they deflected the question, and they deflected the question. They just kept saying: Well, the people will decide.

Unfortuna tely, the people decided and whether it is a good result or a bad result, I still think the result is because of lack of inf ormation. I hold this Government fully accountable for that type of misma nagement. As I travel throughout the province and talk to people about it, they are becoming increasingly aware of the inability of this Government to manage the affairs of the province. We have got a Premier (Mr. Doer) who stands up and defends his minis ters constantly, speaks on their behalf most of the time. I suspect that song will grow tired as they so often do and the truth will rise to the top.

We had instances in the last Legislature again. Where did the labour bill come in the Throne Speech of '99? Where was it? No one talked about it. No one discussed it agai n. What this Government did was build a wall between two groups of people in the province of Manitoba, pitted one agai nst the other and hid it in a veil of secrecy. Oh, yes, it is coming. Do not worry, we will table it at the meetings when we have the public consultations. Do not worry, it is coming.

Talk about a government trying to bring people together and work for the betterment of the province of Manitoba doing nothing more than dividing, dividing and dividing. I think it is a shame and I think this Government will be held accountable in future for these types of issues they are raising. We have Aboriginal communities fighting with Aboriginal communities over the approval of casinos. We have communities that are getting a casino or not getting a casino fighting with each other.

We have rural Manitoba accusing the Government of lis tening only to the people in the city of Winnipeg and totally neglecting their needs and their concerns. We have school trustees upset with the Government in their education policy, and instead of sitting down and negotiating with them and talking to them they basically, as always, say: We will catch you later. Just stay tuned, and we will give you the detai ls. It is quickly becoming a broken record with this Government, and it goes hand in hand with the broken promises that they delivered or have not delivered to the province of Manitoba.

Another issue that I do want to just bring up briefly, Mr. Acting Speaker, when I am talking about the Throne Speech is a great one. You will love this one. The biggest question in Turtle Mountain a few weeks ago-the government introduces an idea. Autopac is doing pretty well. Autopac is doing very well. Why do we not just take a couple of milli on, maybe $20 mill ion or $30 million out of the fund? They will never notice. The people will not be upset. The biggest question that the people asked me in my constituency is: What were you thinking? I mean, where were you?

Where was the Cabinet at the table when this decision was made? Did nobody speak up on behalf of the ratepayers in this province of Manitoba, the people who pay for the lic ences that fund the Autopac fund? Was nobody there defending that group of people, the 700 000 people that buy licences and insurance in the province of Manitoba? Nobody def ended that group of people? I cannot believe it. Then we have a minis ter who says, instead of taking responsibilit y, it was the chairman of MPI that came up with that idea. Oh, is that not a great idea, and where did that person come from?

I guess it is the chair of that board, and what relationship does she have to fundraising for universities in the province of Manitoba? So she says no, no, no, it was not all my idea. I talked to the Government; the Government retracts its statements, retraces its position and finds it is the crumbs in the snow as it is going back over the details of the story, and where they find the fireplace, they all sit down and say, gee, I guess we did talk about it but we still thought it was a pretty good idea, and we almost even thought that the people of Manitoba would not be upset that we would take their money from

December 11 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 5 them, money that they paid for the lowest-cost insurance in Canada. * (14 :50) An Honourable Member: Not in all cases. Mr. Tweed: Not in all cases, I have been corrected; in general I would suggest, and the idea of Autopac in its principle was to provide the lowest-cost service.

Now we have a government reaching their hand into that pile of money that has been managed properly, by the way, for the last 10 years, that would create the surpluses that they are talking about taking, and they say, oh, well, we did not think you would mind; we did not think the public would be upset. You have got a full row of backbenchers back there that I am sure, when they went to their communities, their questions were: Who made that decision? Did Cabinet ever bring it to caucus for a discussion, and, if so, where were you guys? Where were any of you, standing up defending your taxpa yer?

You were nowhere to be seen because you reflect the way you do business and the way you are representing the province of Manitoba, and as I said earlier, people are seeing through this and they are seeing through it very quickly. The Premier (Mr. Doer) at a public speaking engagement the other day got up and said we made a tactical retreat. Well, I am not a veteran. I do not profess to be, but I would suggest that a tactical retreat would be move back, gather the troops again and find another area that we can go after to attack and take advantage of. In fact, we find out that one of the first things, Mr.

Acting Speaker, that this Government did after they got sworn in was to take a committee to Saskatchewan to find out how they raid their Crown corporations. Boy, does that tell me, does that send a clear message to me and to the rest of the people in the province of Manitoba. They did not sit down around that Cabin et table and say we have got some tough decisions to make, and, by golly, we are going to hang in there and make them, probably one, maybe two. Maybe it was the same group that got together and planned the Autopac deal; I am not sure.

Maybe it is a smaller group than that, but they said, you know, we do not have to save money. Our revenue streams are higher than they have ever been in the history of this province. We have more people employed in this province than ever before. We have young people working. While everybody is looking at that, let us go into a Crown corporation and just take a little money. Let us just take it. Th�n if the people catch us, well, we will say we are sorry, but we will not say we will not do it agai n. We will say we will figure out another way to do it. Do not worry, we will be back.

I can tell you the people in the province of Manitoba will be back, too, because for a government to collapse that quickly on a decision it made just shows me the weakness inside that government. You backed off immedia tely, and if one person in Cabinet had had the common sense to stand up and say, hey, this is not a good deall for the ratepayers in the province of Manitoba., it probably would not have ever ha ppened, but, boy, let us go spend that money and let us take it from somewhere where we did not have to earn it or we do not have to tell the people: how we got it and what we have to do with it.

It is beyond me. They talk, Mr. Acting Speaker, in their Throne Speech about vision and opportunity. After the Throne Speech closed the other day, we were standing out iin the round room outside of here, where the interviews were all taking place, and a young person came up to me afterwar ds. We were vis iti ng-first, no, it mig ht be his second experience at seeing a Throne Speech being delivered, a college graduate looking forward to the future. I said, well, what do you think of the Throne Speech? He said, Mr. Tweed, just because you talk about the year 2020, does not mean you have a vision for the province.

That summed up very succinctly to me what he was saying. It is easy to talk about next year and the year after and five years and seven years down the road, but if you just give it lip service and do not put anything, any of the foundations in place to take care of that future, all you are doing is you are just leading people down a path that they are soon going to see that it is the wrong direction. They will tum around, and they will change their opinions of the way the Government has been performing.

15 6 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 11 , 2000 There are several things that I have seen or not seen again in the Speech from the Throne and I am disappointed. I am very di sappointed that a Government in its second Throne Speech to the people in the province of Manitoba disp layed so li ttle vision, so little vision. They talk about what they can do or would do, but they have no substance. They make false promises, false guarantees to people, and really we all know what happens when you create that high level of expectancy when you cannot deliver at the ground level. The house comes tumbling down.

The foundation does not stand. You know, Mr. Acting Speaker, we have seen examples where this Government has misma naged issues, and we have seen areas where they have had to stand up and be accountable for these issues and for these mis takes that they have made, but it all, to me. in my analysis of it, comes down to leadership.

I think, unfortunately, we are not seeing much in the line of a government, a government that was in waiting for such along period of time, to come in here with absolutely no plan, no vision, to run ad hoc all over the place, put a fire out here, put a fire out there, but do not look at any of the long-term sustainable solutions that are out there. I think that they have failed desperately the people in the province of Manitoba, and I think, when the day is over, people will look at the leadership of the province and I suggest to you that they will think that the leadership of this province has failed them.

We have a Premier that so often can deliver an eight-second, a ten second, a twelve-second clip, but when it comes to putting substance behind the comment or to the commitment, we are finding that it is just not that strong. It is washing away, and it is washing away slowly, but as time goes on, we are seeing the erosion of this Government. I suspect that we will continue to see the erosion of this Government. They talk about other things that they are interested in getting involved in, and I know that the water issues in the province are a huge issue. We know it.

I mean, I do not think anybody in this House is going to deny that the issues are not there and that they are ever-changing and that they are going to continue to change, but all I would suggest is the Minister has to go out and meet with these people and talk to them. He cannot hide in his of fice in Broadway or his constituency of fice. You have to get involved with these communities to understand. If you do not, it is going to reflect poorly on you and your adminis tration of a department, and it is going to look poorly on the Government and on the Premier.

I think that is something that we have seen consistent with this Government, with these minis ters, is the fact that when they do not agree with the issue or do not have the public opinion on side they tend not to meet with these people, to reason with them, to hear some viable solutions and work with them. Again, the Member for Dauphin (Mr. Struthers) does not have to go too far to know that these are the same things that people are telling you. They are interested in the same things, and they are interested in the same things for their communities.

Si tting on the side of Government, I would encourage the Member for Dauphin to take a lead role, help out. We have a lot of respect for the Member for Dau phin on that side in those issues because he does understand them, and he spoke several times on them. I, for one, feel that he has a real understanding, and I can tell you that I do not always want to encourage min isters to meet with my constituents but I know that member does, and I think it reflects well on him. I think the sad

part is the fact that we have a Government that after 10 years of being in Opposition decided that they would know what is right for everybody and anybody in the province of Manitoba. Whether we go out and listen to them or not, we are going to do it, we are going to put our head down. We are going to keep plowing forward, and we are going to suffer in the long term. That is my biggest concern, Mr. Acting Speaker, is the future. * (15 :00) We have seen consistently this Government continue to try and spend its way out of problems rather than dealing with the economic issues.

We have a minis ter that travels to another province to find out how he can raid the Crown corporations. We have mm1sters calling meetings, cancelling meetings. We have minis ters denying that they talked about an Autopac payment, then saying: No, maybe we

December 11 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 15 7 did. Then we have a Cabinet that says: Well, it was a Cabinet decision. But it was not. It has just been very frustrating and a very confusing time, I think, for Manitobans, and our job is to continue to point that out. It makes no dif ference to me if a person is incapable or not able or unwilling to do his job or do her job to make a commitment to that, then it is our job to point that out to the public of Manitoba. Whether that offends people or not, in the real world that is the way it works.

We are talking about our young people and keeping them in this province and encouraging them to stay. How do we do that? By of fering them the incentive that if they come, they work hard, they will move forward, they will have opportunity, not that if they come and do not follow the job description or cannot adhere to the rules or regulations that are sometimes put in place, then step aside and let somebody that can because far too much opportunity is being lost in this province right now. I think it is incumbent on this Government to get out and start talking to people and find out what they are really thinking.

Far be it from me to give you good advice, but that would be it. We have seen where the AMM recently held their meetings in Winnipeg and a lot of people di sgruntled about cancelled meetings, unable to

schedule meetings. It is certainly boiling up out there. I want to make all the members opposite aware of it because it is for the betterment of the province. It is not for one group over another. It is better when we can sit down and discuss the issues and move forward . I have had an opportunity to look at the Throne Speech. I really felt that they missed the opportunity that they had as a new government, as a fresh government to come in here and take leadership and show direction.

What they chose to do was do all the good things that were being done in the past, continue on with them and then fall back into the old ways, the old school. People said it would happen. I said it would happen. I see it happening, and I think it is unfortunate for the province of Manitoba. I have had several conversations with some of the minis ters, and it is a tough balance over there, people, when you are talking about trying to create economic wealth and at the same time taxing it all away .

You have a tough battle to come across because as I see it right now based on the amount of dollars that we are ::.pending and the amount of dollars that we are reducing taxes, we are reducing debt and we are reinvesting in our province, the numbers just do not add up, and you are on a roller coaster downhill. I think it is going to happen sooner than later, because all the indica tors would suggest that the Ameri can market is starti ng to slow down. I think no one knows more than myself and the Minister of Industry (Ms.

Mihychuk) how impor tant it is to have that America n market humming along and finding the alternative. So, Mr. Acting Speaker, I thank you for the opportunity. We will continue to hold this Government accountable day in, day out and hope that they will continue or will improve in the future. Thank you. Mr. Conrad Santos (Wellington): Mr. Acting Speaker, my wif e was talking with me one time. We were in conversation, and she asked me a question, and I could not answer. She asked me if vegetarians eat vegetables, what do humanitarians enjoy doing?

So I retorted and said to her if inf ants enjoy inf ancy, do adults enjoy adultery? Now, on a more serious note, the MLA for Wellington wishes to send congratulations to the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Murray) on his recent election as MLA for Kirkfield Park and also for the Member for Tuxedo (Mrs. Stefanson) and all the pages, the interns and the continuing supporting staf f in the Chamber. The Throne Speech 2000, on page 4 of the Hansard, mentioned and made references to public Internet access sites. It also mentioned government helping individuals and businesses in their emerging indust ries.

There is also a mention of high-speed Internet. Of course, we have the e-commerce legisla tion coming up. I will only use these passages of the Throne Speech as a starting point to go to the main topic that I want to disco urse: about. It is as follows: If the effort of the private sector to remould the public sector according to

158 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 11 , 2000 the private sector's own image by whatever means, especially by informa tion and communication technologies, if this effort were to succeed, such transformation of the public sector will ultima tely lead to the end of democratic poli tical governance and the beginning of non-democratic, corporate governance by the plutocratic elites. There is, therefore, a clear and present danger imm inent that everybody should see this taking over by the corporate private managers of the public functions of sovereign government and nation states.

If we allow this and if we make ourselves part of this process, we are destroying our democratic society. For example, I was lis tening in this program that starts at midnig ht. It is called "From Coast to Coast. " I heard that just before the recent America n election, upon authorization from the World Trade Organization, the United States Congress passed quietly certain unspecified legisla tion, legislation which did not receive any debate or attention from the press, from poli tical parties, or from the American public.

If the most pow erful elective legislature in the world would not hesit ate to do the bidding of a nonelected but powerf ul entity like the World Trade Organization, how could lesser sovereign nation states resist the onslaught of the plutocrats? So we better understand the nature of change that is being brought about around us, particularly by the informat ion and communication technologies.

Of course there will be many causes of social and poli tical and other changes around us, but primarily now the main cause of these changes is what we call the inf ormation and communi cation technologies. * (15:10 ) To understand the tremendous effect of a change in the communication system, let us look back at history. The Chaldeans used tablets of baked clay to write their inf ormation. They sent the baked clay as the letter. The Egyptians used papyrus. The Chinese used parchments of animals to record inf ormation for communication.

It was not until 15 44 that Johannes Gutenberg invented a movable printing press. Initially he used types that were carved from wood. Then later on he perfected casting the types in metals. So he produced the first book ever written in print, the Latin version of the Bible known historically as the Gutenberg Bible, which of course ushered in the era of the Reformation, a religious movement led by Martin Luther in Germany; Zwingly in Zurich, Sw itzerland, whose doctrines were embraced by the Anabaptists who espoused the doctrine of the separation of church and state, and of course John Calvin in Geneva.

One most interesting thing about John Calvin is his teaching that all Christians should work hard and use working hard as a gainf ul employment, honest, hardworking people to gain employment. This work becomes their vocation in lif e, all being done to the glory and honour of God. This is known and called by the sociologist Max Weber as the Protestant ethic. According to Max Weber, this is the beginning, the seed, the development of capit alism. Remember it was feudal period during those days.

Since Calvin rejects spending money for pleasure, the money has to go either to phil anthropy or retained by businesses, reinvested in the business. This is capitalism. Of course, the Reformation spread to England and to Scotland and when the two of them had the same poin t of view, the unification of England and Scotland becomes an his torical reality. So you can see all the impl ications of a technological development, the first breakthrough in communica tion technology. Then, later on, Oliver Cromwell. He led what is known as the Glorious Revolution.

It Jed to the most impor tant practice and doctrine of parlia mentary democracy, the supremacy of parliament over the throne. We should remember that, that it is this parliament that has supremacy over the executive, not the executive over this parliament. Our task then is to understand the impact of inf ormation technologies in our current state of poli tical democracy in Manitoba, in Canada and elsewhere. How do we understand the effect, the impact of technology? If breakthrough in technology can result in the development of

December 11 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 15 9 capitalism, if the breakthrough in technology can result in unification of great countries, if the breakthrough in technology can result in the emergence of the doctrine of supremacy of parlia ment, we should be min dful of the tremendous impact of inf ormation and communic ation technology on our democratic society. So let us use some kind of analysis to understand the things around us. We will use what is known as systems analysis.

Viewed in this light, any given society may be thought of as a complex network of interlapping, interrelated, interpenetrating systems of various types, poli tical systems, economic systems, legal systems, industrial systems, all concentrically working like wheels within wheels operating within its own sphere. While this soci ety of ours consists of many such systems of human interact ions, the total societal system itself possesses a relative permanence and persis tence among all its component parts, which gives it an identity quite dis tinguishable from the identities of its part.

It is the total system where the governing of the nerve system resides that has primacy over the other subsystems in our society. Except therefore for the total system, every system of social interaction, industrial, economic, legal, can either be co-equal with each other or one is higher than the other or one is lower than the other, so a co-ordinate, subordinate or superordinate system, and therefore it is possible to conceive of a paral lel as well as a hi erarchical arrangement of systems and subsystems within our society, wheels within wheels.

Every system and subsystem of human interact ion are, of course, maintained by some shared values or beli efs. Otherwise they will not stick together, the elements of the system will not form a part of the system. These values are shared in that subsystem. Any given society, they believe in certain belief s, and they share it among themselves. Any given subsystem of society shares the same belie fs. For example, ethnic groups have the same belief . They eat the same food. These are subsystems in our society.

Some of the shared beli efs in the Canadian total society are internalized in us in our personalities so that it becomes naturally part of us in our thinking, in our poin t of view, in our belief.

However, when shared values manif est themselves in the form of specif ication of prescribed behaviour or prohibited behaviour and soci ety itself attaches certain sanctions, then the individ ual begins to act according to the expectation of others so that the individual is not bound to obey these preferred norms of conduct in the organized system of order, the womb which gives birth to socie tal authority. * (1 5:20) Whatever set of values, these are shared by part of the members of the system.

Once there is a social organizational system that exists that can enforce these prescriptions and can impose assumptions, there emerges what is known as political authority that permeates the whole total system and all the sub-systems. Political authority, therefore, is the legiti mate right emanating from the societal order to do any act necessary to preserve, maintain and enhance the social order, upon the establishment of which such legitima te right has concomitantly come into being.

So you could say the BNA Act, the British North America Act, saying that one of the functions of government is the order through government, this is tht� function of authority. Cognate to but dis tinguishable from poli tical authority is the concept of political power. What is poli tical power? Political power is the capacity to get another person to do what the person's subject to power would not otherwise do, or to prevent him from doing what otherwise he would do despite his opposition to the person exercising power.

Such phenomena in our organized soci ety where there is poli tical authority enforced by political power, we know that this is the reason why, of all the systems in society, that sub-system, the poli tical system, becomes the nation state. It gives it primacy and importance beyond all the other systems. No other sub-system in the total society can challenge the nation state because the nation state has both poli tical authority as well as poli tical power. But it is also the responsibili ty, it exists primarily to protect the entire society and to promote the general well-being of all.

16 0 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA December 11 , 2000 Now, how do we understand changes around us in institutions, in people's interact ion? What is reality? Let us talk about this. What is real? How do we understand what is real? How do we acquire knowledge of reality around us, seen or unseen? Okay, let us tentatively define reality as the totality of everything, everything, both material and immaterial, seen or unseen.

Because of this broadest meaning, it is indeed dif ficult to have any accurate knowledge of anything at all because some of the things around us we can only know by means of divine revelation, exempli gratia. For example, how do you know there is immor tality? You do not know unless it is revealed to you. The other things that are part of reality, we can apprecia te only by intuition. How do we know there is gravity? We intuit. We feel it. Some of the things that we know we can perceive through our senses. We can see. We can see the chair. We can hear the sound. We can taste food.

Through perception, all these things we can perceive, we call it phenomena, but there are certain things that you cannot even perceive, beyond your senses, but you can still conceive of them in your mind. They are called by the Greeks noumenon. For example, is there such a thing as li berty? Is there such a thing as equality? You cannot taste it. You cannot see it. You cannot feel it, but you can conceive of it in your mind. The method which we use in order to arrive at knowledge of reality, both material and non material, is what we call methodology.

All the collection of these methods of knowing is the thing called methodology. Therefore to arrive at systematic knowledge we use methods. We can call these methods descriptive, analytical, comparative, even a case-studies method. I am now using the analytical method. But method has another meaning to the phil osophers of science. To them it is the epistemological assumptions concerning the ultima te bases of human knowledge. In this particula r case, we can describe method as logical. It can be inductive or deductive or non logical. We can describe it as normative, that is to say it prescribes or empirical.

You can only describe it because you can see it as part of realit y around you. But there is one thing that is used by scientists and sometimes approp riated by social scientists as well. This is known as the scientific method. The scientific method has actually many meanings, various operations, but is basically connected with concept formation, formulation of hypotheses, the testing of those hypotheses empirically, so that what they theorize actually is taking place in the reality around us. If it is a good method, it can make predictions.

Predictions are nothing but ext ensions of the present to the future, projecting what will happen next. Strictly speaking, the social reality around us, the interaction of people, their culture, their belief s, these are not sub ject to scientific methods, but, nevertheless, they can be explained by the use of a framework of explanation known as a theoretical paradigm. For example, is there really democracy? So you create a paradigm, a theory of democracy, and in creating that theory, a framework of explanation, you construct certain ideas like freedom, rights, li berties.

These are not observable except they are created by the mind, and then you link those constructs, those concepts, with sense data, inf ormation that you collect in your investigation. If the theory is verifiable, then it is a good theory. If it is not, then it is just a theory. If we verif y the theory by human experience or human observation, then it is really an explanatory system of certain aspects of reality.

Now, the most difficult thing is if reality is everything and if change is taking pla ce in everything, how do we know that change is taking pla ce and how do we explain it, because some of this reality is not even seen, not even felt. According to the phi losopher, George Wilhelm Frederic Hegel, his torical change takes place as a result of a dialectical process which is the tendency of any notion or idea or desire to pass over to its negation as a result of the contradictory aspects of reality, a situation or condition.

If it really is the case that reality exists and that reality exists independently of human perception and if what we observe is not necessarily what there is because we mig ht be observing simply illusions of reality, depending on our point of view, depending on our

December 11 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 161 perspectives, and our perspectives are defined by belief s and soci ety's system of shared values, there is usually some inherent contradiction in many dif ferent perceptions of social reality. These contradictions may exis t side by side, and when they do, we call them paradoxes. For example, when Max Weber asserted that capitalism is the instrumental flowering of the Calvinistic belief in Protestant work ethics, the underlying assumption is exactly opposite of the Marxian assumption.

The underlying assumption is that it is belie ved the determined behaviour, and it is behaviour that determines economic relationships. So from the belief in hard work, they work hard, and by their working hard, they accumulate wealth. When they accumulate wealth, capitalism results, a relationship in the economic aspect of society. That is the opposite of what the Marxist will be saying. * (15: 30) To the Marxist, economics determine politics. The social and poli tica l superstructure and practices are just products of our poli tical ideologists and beliefs .

An organized religion according to Marx is just one of the capi talistic institutions of our society to exploit the masses. Those are the Marxian belie fs. So the two belief s existed side by side. This is itself a paradox.

The Marxian view asserts that if social and poli tical institutions and their accompanying patterns of beli efs and ideas arise as superstructure out of the economic relationship of the means of production, of services and other goods to satisf y material needs, wants and desires of human lif e, then it may be said that the economic means of lif e will determine poli tical and class relationships. How come that the poor usually tend to go left and the rich usually tend to go right of the poli tical spectrum? Because of the dif ferences in their wealth, their economic status in lif e.

Human beings therefore are confronted with these dif ferent experiences, and there are contradictions in them. Li fe indeed sometimes is very contradictory so we describe it as lif e being paradox ical. A paradox is nothing but contradictory statements, seemingly contradictory, or a line of arguments that apparently derives self contradictory conclusions from valid deductions from accepted premises. For example, if a person says "the more things change around us, the more things stay the same," he is making and uttering a paradoxical statement.

How can things be constantly changing and at the same time staying the same? That is paradox ical. How can we explain that? The answer lies in the limitation of human wisdom and the unlimit ed nature of divine wisdom. In the design and the operation of the created universe, a most impor tant

part is our earth and its environment, but it is very insignifica nt compared to the rest of the universe in outer space. King David said: Seigneur, mon Dieu, tu es si grand. Vetu de splendeur et d'eclat, drape de lumiere comme d'un manteau. Que tes oeuvres sont nombreuses, Seigneur! Toutes avec sagesse tu les fis. La terre est remplie de ta richesse. Le Seigneur a etabli son trone dans les cieux, et son royaume domine tout. Oh Lord my God, thou are very great. Thou are clothed with honour and majesty. Thou cover thyself with light as a garment. Oh Lord how manif old are Thy works !

In wisdom Thou has made them all. The earth is full of Thy riches. The Lord has established his throne in the heavens and his kingdom ruleth over all. The son of King David, King Solomon, described in Ecclesia stes why things that periodically change stay the same according to the grand design, according to even the eyes of the beholder in the workings of this universe where order seems to prevail despite changes in seasons, in time, in activities of the natural order of things. As observed by King Solomon: Un age s'en va, un autre age vient et Ia terre tient tou jours.

Le soleil se leve et It:! soleil s'en va: il se hate vers son lieu, et Ia il :se leve. Le vent va vers le sud et toume vers le nord. II toume et il toume et s'en va et le vent repr,end son parcours. Tous les fleuves marchent vers Ia mer, et la mer ne se remplit pas; et les fleuves continuent a marcher vers le lieu, la-bas, d'ou ils s'en vont de nouveau ... Ce qui a ete, c'est ce qui sera, et ce qui s'est

16 2 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 11 , 2000 fait, c'est ce qui se fera; et i1 n'y a rien de nouveau sous le soleil. One generation goeth, another generation cometh, but the earth abideth forever. The sun also ariseth, and the sun goeth down, and hastens back to his pla ce where he arose. The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about towards the north. Then it whirleth about continually, and the wind again returns according to its circuits. All the rivers flow into the sea, yet the sea is not full. Unto the place where the river come, thither they return again.

The things that hath been it is that which shall be, and that which is done is that which shall be done, and there is no new thing under the sun. Do you ever wonder why the river stays in its banks, the sea stays in its bank? Even if all the waters and all the rivers are flowing to the sea, it never stops beyond the bank or the seacoast of the river. That is divine design. That is divine wisdom. Thus, by the process of periodic change, our natural world reveals a dynamic system. It is a system that relies on rhythm, on cycles, on variations and instability, and it changes over time, but it stays the same.

Now, recently some social scientists have developed a theory that they call a theory of systemic chaos. This theory relies on variation, di sorder, instability and change over time and generates more complex forms of organizations and processes. The citation here is L. D. Keil, Managing Chaos and Complexity in Government, San Francisco, Jossey-Bass Inc., 19 94, Preface, page 11 .

In general, changes in society and in the poli tical and social institutions take place as a result of the dialectical process whereby one social or political condition, which we call the thesis, generates its own contradiction, the anti thesis, and then these two exist side by side until these contradictory aspects merge into a convergence, which we call the synthesis.

Once it becomes the synthesis, it becomes a new thesis at the higher level of reality or a lower level of realit y as the case may be, and being a new thesis it then generates an antit hesis in the next cycle of the dialectical process in the course of his torical and social change. [interjection] Okay. * (15 :40) "A" by definition generates a "non-a." The two exist side by side, "a" and "non-a." That will last for a long time. Then they will merge into a conversion.

They become a "b." The "b" will generate opposite, "minus-b." They exist side by side again, and then they converge and they become a "c." The "c" generates and so on. You see that is dialectical process. An Honourable Member: Where did the "c" come from? Mr. Santos: That is the wonder of it. Now let us apply thi s. The exis tence of the confederation, there is the old Conservative Party, Tory Party. Now there is a movement in the early-after the Depression I remember-the Progressives. They in fact took power in Manitoba. The Conservatives and the Progressives join ed.

So it is called Progressive Conservative, inherently contradictory. There is a paradox. Now it exists for a time that way and then what happened? It generates another one, Ref orm. Then it transforms itself , and it seems to be swallowing the old Progressive Conservative. I do not know what is going on in there, but certainly is a dialectical process. The process of change, therefore, is non-linear. It is dynamic, contrary to Isaac Newton's theory of a machine which is predictably stable and predictable. The new paradigm, the new view is that reality is really bubbling and turbulent.

It is seething with uncertainty, instability, unpredictab ili ty, but behind all this these are just precursors of a higher order and structure of things. That is the new theory. Now going back to my main proposition, the private sector is trying to re-create the public sector according to its ima ge. Do you know when that process happened? It happ ened during creation when the Lord Almig hty created men according to his own image. What is the private sector doing here? It is playing the role of somebody else, trying to re-create government according to its own image. It is playing the role of the Almighty.

So they are trying to re-invent government, the private-sector managers. This

December 11 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 16 3 began with James Barnham Buchold [phonetic], The Managerial Revolutions, the managers taking over. They have instrumental values efficiency but it becomes of no value. Now to recap and go back to Throne Speech, I would like to use this one mi nute recapitulating. There is a danger, clear and present, representative government will vanish, and the rich manager will take over if we allow the private sector based on the bottom-line, power of money and wealth to take over the functions of government.

With respect to the Throne Speech, if they vote agai nst it, they are simply doing pro forma the role of an opposition. They cannot have it both ways. But if they vote against the Throne Speech, they are voting agai nst the investment in education, they are voting against improving and maintaining a balanced budget law. They are voting against improving health care in this province. In fact, they are voting against the equalization of hydro rates. Good for the North, the basis of their poli tical power and influence. Are they voting against their own people? Mrs.

Myrna Driedger (Charleswood): It is an honour to deliver my third address to the provincial Speech from the Throne. It gives me great pleasure to have the opportunity to address the members of the House, the people of the province, and particularly the people of Charleswood. I want to begin by offering my most sincere congratulations to our new leader on his successf ul election as the new member for Kirkfield Park and to the newly elected member for Tuxedo on her successful by-election. I very much look forward to working with both of them.

I would also like to welcome all of the honourable members back to the House. I am sure that we all look forward to representing our constituents' interests well within the Legislative Assembly. I would also like to extend a sincere welcome to our new pages and the six legislative interns who are working with the Government and the Opposition caucuses. I know their services will be much appreciated by all of us. These positions provide a wonder ful opportunity for young people to witness first-hand the business of this Chamber.

I hope this experience leads to a lif elong interest in the legislative process for them. Throughout the past year, I have had the opportunity to speak with a great many residents of Charleswood, and they shared their hopes and fears with me. I intend to work very hard to ensure that their exp<ectations are met and that their concerns are dealt with expeditiously. Since my election as the MLA for Charleswood, I have been tremendously impressed by the enthusiasm and community spirit shown by the people in my constituency.

They have shown a will ingness, in fact an eagerness, to work together on projects to enhance our neighbourhoods. The most meani ngful and signi ficant change is a change we effect ourselves. The people in Charleswood truly exemplif y this. I strongly belie ve that the most vibr ant communities are those which strengthen themselves with the participation of local residents. I would like to share a little bit about Charleswood's intenesting history with the members of this legislative House. Charleswood developed as a farming community on the outskirts of Winnipeg.

Farmers in Charleswood produced grain, hay, cattle and poultry, but they are probably most well-known for their successf ul mink farms. Charleswood still has a wonderful flavour of being a li ttle bit country, a little bit city. That is most obvious when one walks down the Hart trail [phonetic] and you look one way and you can see the city and you look the other way and you can see fields of grain and fields full of bales in the fall. It gives a wonderful, wonderful feeling of being a bit in the country and a bit in the city.

Recently, Charle:swood Hi storical Socie ty also erected a wonderful, wonderful new sign welcoming people to Charleswood. It is a replica of a sign that was up many, many years ago. It was nice to be able to see the fundraising effort that was achieved by the Charleswood His torical Society. A lot of work went into that, and they have done a tremendous job in producing this sign which welcomes people to this wonderful part of the city.

16 4 LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA December II , 2000 During my tenure thus far as the MLA for Charleswood, I have worked in co-operation with dedica ted local citizens to introduce or participa te in programs and activities for youth, families and seniors. I adhere to the phil osophy that partnerships make a healthy community, and I will continue to work to forge stronger partnerships throughout our community. Ensuring that seniors in the constituency are inf ormed and aware of options and activities is a community priority for me.

During 19 99's International Year of Older Persons I was privileged to bring together a group of seniors from Charleswood. We established the Charleswood Seniors Advisor y Commi ttee. We certainly found out that many seniors felt isola ted, many seniors did not know where to turn to find out what resources were available in their community and elsewhere, and many seniors felt a certain degree of isolation. *( 1 5:50) It was wonderful to see how this particular group evolved. Part of their initiatives included taking

part in the Charleswood In Motion Days parade, Charleswood In Motion Days Exhibit. At the actual fairgrounds they put on a barbecue that first year. We produced a quarterly newsletter that was di stributed throughout the community to seniors by seniors. This particula r group has grown and developed since that time and recently incorporated themselves. One of the things that is probably the most exciting thing that happened out of this particula r group was the creation of a seniors centre at Royal School in December of 19 99. Ms.

Bonnie Korzeniowski, Acting Speaker . in the Chair Through the activities of the seniors and through this new seniors centre there are many, many activities provided to seniors now in Charleswood including art classes, computer classes, lectures by guests, line dancing, barbecues. A newsletter continues to inf orm people in the community about activities and there is a strong sense of caring about each other and about their community that they exhibit. It truly does show and exemplify what people can do when they actually get together with a real goal in mind.

I want to personally thank all of the members of the Charleswood Seniors Advis ory Committee for their absolutely outstanding efforts since they began their init iative with me. My role with the group has certainly been very fulfilling. It faded out at the end of 19 99, at the end of the International Year of Older Persons, and this group has now grown in tremendous ways. They have truly fulfilled the spirit and intent of the International Year of Older Persons for those people in Charleswood. Another group that deserves recognition for its contribution to Charleswood is the Winnipeg Police Service.

I am very pleased that the continuation of the Police Athletic Clubs has continued at Westdale Junior High. There is an incredible amount of effort put forward by the Winnipeg Police Service to make this a strong program.

It is certainly a credit to their effort that we have so many young people attending at the club every night, Monday to Friday, giving the young people something to do other than being on the streets and giving them an opportunity to have fun in a non-competitive environment but in a controlled environment where parents know where their young child ren are and feel a degree of confidence that they are involved in some really good programming that is highly supported by the people in the community.

Another organization in Charleswood that cannot go unmentioned is the Westdale Residents Association that was formed in July 19 98 with a ma jor goal of ensuring community safety. This group of people serves as an excellent example of community empowerment. Comments from the community police certainly have shown that there has been a drop in crime statistics since the associa tion began their patrolling efforts as part of the Ci tizens on Patrol program that they formed.

They are all to be commended for their commitment to their community and for all the work they do to ensure that their community remains a saf e place to live and raise a family. We know that a community best strengthens itself from within. That is one of the reasons I have been bringing community leaders together for quarterly networking luncheons. These meetings have been attended by people representing community groups, schools,

December 11 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSE MBLY OF MANITOBA 16 5 churches and businesses in Charleswood. These meetings have turned into very useful inf ormation sharing sessions where people connect and share ideas about future opportunities for strengthening our constituency. It is always encouraging to see people with a genuine interest in their community gather together to make plans for the future. We have been fortunate to hear from the Deputy Chief of Police who spoke to us at our last luncheon to talk about the community's role in crime prevention.

We were also pleased to hear from our Oak Park High School student council about reorganization that has occurred in that school which is unique in the city and perhaps even in the province in terms of their ability to get young people involved in student council work within the school and the very, very positive effects this is having on the self esteem of young people. We also had the Winnipeg Air ports Authority speak to our community leaders in regard to the development plans they had at the airport.

I had the opportunity to invite them to make a presentation to get input from our community leaders about what they felt was impor tant as part of this development. Madam Acting Speaker, the NDP could learn a lot from the people of Charleswood when it comes to sharing ideas and developing a plan for the future. I am disappointed, as are many of my constituents, that the NDP did not share their plans for the future with Manitobans in their Speech from the Throne. After being in opposition for 11 years, I thought that the NDP would have a plan for the future. In fact, this speech tells me that they do not.

They are indeed demonstrating that they are the party with little vision and no plan, at least certainly not an obvious one. As a nurse, I know from first-hand experience that health care also represents an issue of great importance to Manitobans. It is unfortunate that the members opposite did not choose to recognize that importance in their Throne Speech. Health is barely given mention in the Throne Speech, this from the Government that said they were elected to end hallway medicine and rescue health care.

Manitobans now see that their quick-fix solutions were nothing but irresponsible and unachievable promises. In fact, Madam Acting Speaker, certainly from the election of 19 99 many, many promises were made by the NDP as to what they were going to accomplish in terms of addressing the issues and challeng•:!s in health care, and certainly the biggest one was to end hallway medicine and rescue health care. But the NDP failed to end hallway medicine and rescue health care in six months. They fai led to immedia tely hire a hundred new full-time nurses. They failed to convert part-time nursing positions to full time.

They failed to hire more doctors and specialists across Manitoba. They fai led to implement a physician resource plan within the first year of being in government. They failed to immedia tely open a hundred new beds. They failed to slash waiting lists. They fai led to cut prostate cancer waiting lists in half within the first year. They failed to put the Grafton, North Dakota, clinic out of business for Manitobans. They failed to end expansion of frozen food and pull it from Deer Lodge.

They failed to allow RHA board members to be elected, and they failed to establish a prostate cancer screening program in their first year in government. Madam Acting Speaker, Manitobans were looking for hope in health care during the election. Now what we see, I think, from that election is the Fi rst Minister (Mr. Doer) taking advantage of the peoples' vulnerability at that time, their fear for the health care system, and the Premier and his NDP colleagues made promises they knew they could not keep. I find that extremely discou raging on behalf of all Manitobans.

I lis tened really intently to find their vision for health care within a Throne Speech because that certainly is what I thought throne speeches were meant to do. I was very di sappointed that I did not see or hear a vision in terms of health care. They rehashed the few things that were already happ ening and missed the boat, I think, on a lot of issues that could have been dealt with. I looked and lis tened for a vision in terms of long-term care. I was looking for a vision and a plan for community care, home care, healthy initiatives for seniors.

16 6 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA December 11 , 2000 Certainly the Minister of Health (Mr. Chomia

k) likes to talk a lot about getting rid of SmartHealth, but after 14 months we see no initiative at all mentioned in terms of addressing the issue of inf ormation technology in health care, which is a major challenge. There was no vision in there for the development of workload management tools so we could get a handle on what is happening in terms of the challenges of patient care and the kind of staffing levels we would need to manage patient care. There was nothing in there in terms of dia betes and cancer initia tives, two huge challenges amongst our many communities.

I was really hoping to see something in terms of health prevention and promotion. Instead, I know, in the last budget, we saw a decrease of funding by 4 percent for healthy community initia tives, and I am waiting to find some new initiatives where they could take some of their vision, if they had it, and put it forward into looking at some new things that could be done in Manitoba. * (16 :00) There was nothing in there, for instance, to even address the issue of a menopause clinic, which could very likely be closing at the end of this year because of no government funding.

There are certainly some challenges to FIA legisla tion, challenges, I think that certainly were not intended, but have certainly aff ected the fundraising abilities of hospit al foundations. I would have expected maybe to see some attempt by this Government to try to address that particular unforeseen problem, because it is an imp erative problem that does need to be looked at. I was waiting to hear something about the implem entation of Phase 2 of the breast cancer program. I was looking for something on child ren's initiatives from their Healthy Child Initiative.

I am very concerned that, when the Child ren and Youth Secretariat was di smantled and redeveloped as the Healthy Child Init iative, there were certainly a lot of comments being made from within and without that department that the momentum for all of the children's ini tiatives in Manitoba had certainly stalled. I think that is what we saw with this Throne Speech. There definitely was a stalling of healthy child initiatives.

I certainly think what we are seeing is a government floundering after dis mantling this particular area, and we are not hearing anything new and innovative coming from that particular group. Definitely, there seems to be a lost focus and impact in children's areas . I was very disa ppoin ted to see that there was no real human resource planning mentioned. Certainly the one element that was mentioned in the Throne Speech was the physician retention plan. Well, that was announced back in the election. Fourteen months later, it is being announced again.

With the challenge in health care in terms of attracting and keeping doctors here, I would have thought we would have seen something far sooner than this in terms of implementing a plan that they lead everybody to believe they had. Looking back to health cli ppin gs in the 19 80s, when the NDP were in power, makes for some interesting reading. There was a declared health care crisis of massive proportions. Having been a nurse that worked at that particular time in a hospital, I can certainly attest to it.

I would like to share just a few of the headlines with Manitobans: "Bed shortage cited in death of four patient s," "Hosp ital forced to limit admission," "Heart surgery wait worries doctors," "People going blind waiting for eye surgery, doctor says," "Intensive care bed short," "Doctor shortage plagues rural areas ," "Aging medical equipment worried MDs and Technicians ." This is deja vu, Madam Acting Speaker. The NDP have not learned anything, and they have not proven to be better managers of the health care system today.

I find it interesting that the NDP are already distancing themselves from one of their fundamental core commitments. They have gone from saying in the 19 99 election that they would end hallwa y medicine and rescue health care to saying that they will now restore public health care in all regions of our province. They have quickly moved away from the health care term that they themselves coined. They do not mention hallwa y medicine in the Throne

December 11 , 2000 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 16 7 Speech because they have fai led to keep their promise. Patients are still in hospital hallways. It was interesting to note that the Minister of Fi nance (Mr. Selinger) certainly supported our position on this, where he indi cated that this particular promise made in the election was irresponsible. It was interesting to note that the Minister of Industry, Trade and Mines (Ms. Mihychuk) has indi cated that hallwa y medicine still exists.

So at least it is somewhat reassuring to know that there are two cabinet min isters that have some awar eness that this issue is still prevalent. Indeed health care has reached a low point in Manitoba. In October when for the first time since 19 83 a Manitoban who went to an emergency room died after waiting for five hours. The Health Minister (Mr. Chomia

k) says this is not an example of hallwa y medicine. Well, Madam Acting Speaker, he is wrong. He is absolutely wrong. If this Health Minister knew that waiting rooms in emergency departments are part and parcel of the big pic ture of hallwa y medici ne-and I wish he would have had a better understanding of that-he would not have made such a sta tement to all of us. Cert

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	37-2-5
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	37th 2nd hansardpdf 5.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	26b827dd5d05583efeb71ed9987cf20f9d5738bb

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