Volume XL Monday Province of Newfoundland FORTIETH GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF · NEWFOUNDLAND First Session VERBATIM REPORT {Hansarq} Speaker: Honourab le Pat rick McN icholas Number 34 17 June 198 5

The House met at 3:00 P.M. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Statements by Ministers MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, I wish to take this opportunity to advise the House of my meeting with the hon. John Fraser, Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, and fellow members of the Atlantic Council of Fisheries Ministers, which was held June 13-14 past in Quebec city.

As most hon. members are aware, the Atlantic Council of Ministers is the forum in which the federal and atlantic fisheries ministers address major fishery issues which have a provincial, national, and international perspective. I can advise this hon. House that I was most pleased with the proceedings of this most recent meeting of the council. This meeting provided me with the first opportunity to meet formally with my federal and provincial colleagues and to address a number of the more pressing issues such as the recent West German overfishing activity, the St.

Pierre and Miquelon boundary issue, quality enhancement, the Federal Fisheries Observer Programme, and the Atlantic salmon fishery. In respect to the recent serious overfishing activity by the West Germans, immediately adjacent to Canada's 200 mile zone, I strongly reiterated the Province's grave concerns over this matter. The Ll728 June 17, 1985 Vol XL federal minister was particularly sensitive to the joint resolution of this House which called for an appropriate course of action to deal with foreign overfishing activities.

I took this opportunity to again restate our official policy position, that Canada should extend its fisheries jurisdiction to the continental margins since, in our view, this is the only effective option to address foreign overfishing beyond 200 miles. I can advise that my provincial expressed over the incident. counterparts also their grave concerns West German overfishing The Atlantic Council of Fisheries ministers will meet to deal with this specific issue within the next month or so and this reflects the common concern which prevails over the matter.

Indeed, I understand it represents the first time that the council has agreed to meet prior to a NAFO meeting to address a matter of this nature. The hon. House will be aware that negotiations between Canada and France relative to the St. Pierre and Miquelon boundary have been ongoing for several years. The final outcome of these deliberations could have a very significant impact on the Newfoundland fishery, particularly the inshore fishery along the Province • s south coast. For this reason the Province has played an active role in these deliberations and is monitoring developments on an ongoing basis.

The federal minister provided the council with an update on these negotiations at the June 13 - 14 meeting and advised that the next round of negotiations is tentatively scheduled for September, 1985. I wish to advise that the Province will be represented again at those negotiating sessions. No. 34 Rl728

Members of the House will also note tfiat fish quality enhancement measures received consider.able discussion at this most recent council of Atlantic Fisheries Ministers ~eeting. The federal government remains committed to implementation of dockside grading and final product grade standards on January 1, 1986. There is little doubt whatsoever that these measures could have a very positive impact on Canada's performance in the international market place, notwithstanding the fact ~hat we have already made major progress in the quality improvement area over the past several years.

This Province fully supports the industry-wide fish quality enhancement proposal and is confident that an appropriate

schedule of fish prices, reflective of quality, will be negotiated within the context of the Fishing Industry Collective Bargaining Act. Another matter of considerable importance which was discussed at the most recent - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. RI DE OUT : Mr. Speaker, the members asked me to give them an update when I got back and I am trying to do that. Another matter of considerable importance which was discussed at the most recent of Atlantic Fisheries Ministers meeting - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (McNic hola s}: Order, please! MR. RIDEOUT: related to Atlantic salmon.

Some concern has been expressed Ll729 June 17, 1985 Vol XL over the status of our Atlantic salmon stocks. And members will note that a number of changes have recently been made in this area, especially as they relate to the mandatory buy back of part-time salmon licenses. This Province is prepared to support every reasonable measure to rebuild our salmon stocks, but we have already taken the position that the commercial fishery interest should not be given secondary consideration to other user groups such as recreational fishery.

The federal minister will be establishing a working group to address all matters related to the salmon resource and my department, together with the Department of Culture, Recreation and Youth, will be participating in the activities of this working group. In conclusion I wish to advise the House that I welcome the opportunity to meet with the federal minister and my provincial counterparts to discuss issues of common interest. In the weeks ahead I will continue to place particular emphasis on the West German overfishing issue to ensure that our concerns are accommodated to the maximum extent possible.

In this context I look forward to the next meeting of the Council of Atlantic Fisheries Ministers. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McN ichola s}: The hon. member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, let me provincial Minister No. 34 say to the of Fisheries Rl729

~~ (Mr. Rideout} that I hoped he enjoyed federal his first visit counterpart and with his the rest of his provincial counterparts in Canada. Mr. Speaker, I thank him for bringing back to the House a report, such as it was, and I would hope that the paper is not indicative of what I see as the Tory blue fog that is settling over Canada. AN HON. MEMBER: Do you have that written down? MR. TULK: Well, of course, I always make copious notes. When you look and see the major issues that the minister has outlined in his report - the West German overfishing, the St.

Pierre and Miquelon boundary issue, quality enhancement, the Federal Fisheries Observer Programme, and the Atlantic salmon fishery - they are all major issues. I am giving the minister the benefit of the doubt, and I have no doubt that he dj,d raise those issues at that conference. But if you go through the whole report, Mr. Speaker, you will find out that what we really see here is very little action. There is very little action being suggested here.

It seems that the minister would do much better if he could give us what we are interested in this Province, for example, with the West German overfishing, is this the details of the reaction of the Federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Fraser} in regards to the overfishing, and regards to the Observer Programme and so on? It -does us very the Minister of Rideout) to come little good Fisheries back to for (Mr. this Ll730 June 17, 1985 Vol XL Province and tell us that the federal minister was 'particularly sensitive' to West German overfishing.

Well, he can be as sensitive as he likes, but the truth of the matter is that when we just had a case in New Brunswick, where the New Brunswick fishermen were allowed to go into Prince Edward Island, and the Federal Minister of Fisheries declared that he was about to shut down the whole North Atlantic Fishery. Yet, the Federal Minister of Fisheries, all he can be is sensitive to a problem that is going off here offshore, the West German overfishing and the Observer problem, if there is a problem with the observers.

It is scandal~us, it is ridiculous that all we get from the Federal Minister of Fisheries is that he is sensitive to the whole issue when we see that scavenging going on offshore, . and so on. But in the case of New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island, he is going to close down the fishery! Why do not have details from the federal minister today that he is about to put a moratorium on EEC fishing offshore? Why do we not have that? Let me ask him another question - St. Pierre and Miquelon boundaries. Where are the details of that?

Is this another example the same as we have with the tariffs where we were advised afterwards what happens? On quality, will they differentiate in quality for price? Will you get a better price for a better quality of fish? What was the reaction of the Federal Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Fraser) in regards to the hook and release programme that we No. 34 Rl730

have? Will the federal minister keep changing regulations and telling the inshore fishermen and the commercial fishermen about them afterwards? There is absolutely nothing in this, no detail. It just seems to me another Tory love-in going on in Ottawa between different provincial ministers and federal ministers. All genera -lities, Mr. Speaker, there is very little in this that has substance. Little substance to deal with problem involved in the · incomes of inshore fishermen in particular~ While I am sure, as I said, I believe that the member for Baie Verte - White Bay {Mr.

Rideout), the Minister of Fisheries would do his job as Minister of Fisheries in any way possible that he could, I suspect that his Tory buddies in Ottawa are still ignoring him. What we have tabled here, of course, is a report of that trip that he made, but also it is just nothing only another report of the Tory love-in that we have seen here for the past ten months. SOME HON . MEMBE RS: Hear, hear! MR. SP EAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! I would like to welcome to the galleries Dr. Douglas Stewart, Minister of Emeritus of St. Andrews Presbyterian Church in Toronto. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SPEAKER: I would also like to . welcome Mrs. Nora Aylward, who is on the Board of Directors of the Canadian Cancer Society and President of the Cancer Society in Stephenville. Ll731 June 17, 1985 Vol XL SOZ.1E HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! Oral Questions MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (M cNi cho las ): The hon. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the hon. Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe) • I ask is the minister familiar with certain reports that CN plans to lay off at once, imminently, seventy people who are members of the Brotherhood of Maintenance of Way, these are the people who are responsible for maintaining the railway track across this Province, Mr. Speaker? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: No, Mr. Speaker, I am not. MR. DECKER: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER : A supplementary, the member for the Strait Isle. MR.

DECKER: I thank the minister straight answer at least. hon. the of Belle for a Will the minister be making direct and immediate enquiries to the CN local head office to confirm or deny whether these reports are true? Will the minister return with an answer to this House on No. 34 Rl731

the morrow? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Transportation. MR. DAWE: Minister is of any will Mr. Speaker, if there information available I certainly provide it to the House as soon as I can access it. As a matter of fact, I meet on a regular basis with most of the union personnel in various branches of the unions with TerraTransport and from time to time discuss a number of matters with them, I have a meeting scheduled in the next couple days with another branch of the union so as soon as there information available I certainly make it available House, Mr. Speaker. MR. DECKER: Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): is any will to the A final supplementary, the han. the member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: The minister does not seem to be aware of the urgency of this question. We are talking about seventy people and three days is not good enough, Mr. Speaker. Will he tell this House that tomorrow he will have an answer to this question? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Transportation. MR. DAWE: Mr. Speaker, I am glad to see the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.

Decker) had an enjoyable Ll732 June 17, 1985 Vol XL weekend and has come back in the same high spirits as he left us on Friday. There is a number important issues, Mr. which are facing us with of very Speaker, regard to all sorts of transportation issues in this Province and I am dealing with them, as is the mandate of my portfolio, and have ongoing meetings with unions as well as management in the various transportation areas in the Province and I will continue to do so. Mr.

Speaker, if the information on the alleged layoff that the member referred to is ·in fact available within the next hour, I will make it available to the House. If it is available tomorrow, I will make it availa?le tomorrow. If it is not available before next week, then, Mr. Speaker, I am afraid we will have to wait until then. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. KELLAND: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The han. the member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

As we learned some time ago the Carol Players from the Labrador West area of our Province made quite a showing in the international amateur drama festival in Ireland. Also, two weeks ago, this was brought up in the House, in a request that congratulations be forwarded to the group that made such a fine showing and exemplified the talent which lies within our Province. I would like to suggest and enquire of the Departments of Culture, No. 34 Rl732

Recreation and Youth and the Department responsible for Tourism if they will not now belatedly award the Carol Players, who had quite a large expense to make that trip on behalf of the whole Province and who did such a good job in representing us, if they will now make a very minimum award, belatedly?

And, in recognition of the shabby omission by the government not to do something for these people prior to leaving to represent us, to make a minimum award of $1,000 per department for a total of $2,000 to help offset the extreme expense and to try to give recognition for the fact that this drama group did represent us all so well. And I direct the question, as there are two ministers involved, to the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr. Matthews). MR. SPEAKER 01cNicholas): The hon. Minister of Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS : Culture, Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would just like to point out for the information of all hen. members that we did have correspondence with the Carol Players prior to their leaving for the competition. Of course, we do have a programme in the Department of Culture, Recreation and Youth where we do partially fund trips such as this, but it is only done in conjunction and co-ordination and co-operation with External Affairs or one of their Canadian embassies.

And, of course, my understanding of the Carol Players trip was that it was merely their own voluntary exercise that took them abroad and consequently we did not have a programme whereby we could fund them. But I must say to the hen. member, I respect his question and his enquiry but Ll733 June 17, 1985 Vol XL the thing is I did investigate the matter on their behalf to my department and to the staff in Cultural Affairs, but we do not have any programme whereby we can fund the Carol Players on the trip that they went on. We do not have it.

So if it was done in co-operation or co-ordination with External Affairs or a Canadian Embassey located in some other country we could partially fund them. MR. KELLAND: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. member for Naskaupi, a supplementary. MR. KELLAND: While I appreciate what the minister said and I can understand his problems in the department of not having programmes, I wonder why there is not a programme of that sort?

It seems to me just a short while ago in this House we discussed the fact, and the Premier quite proudly informed us all, that several thousands of dollars were spent on a set of uniforms for the hockey team that represented our Province. It strikes me if the slush fund can cough up that kind of money, there is no reason why the programmes within the department to look after our arts and culture would not be flexible enough to do that.

As the subject was broached and the suggestion was made that the group be congratulated, has in fact a congratulatory message been sent out by the government and if so would the minister mind reading it to us? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. No. 34 Rl733

MR. MATTHEWS: Mr. Speaker, I guess the hon. member was absent from the House when this matter was brought to the attention of all hon. members, I think it was by the hon. member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick) , about the great achievements of the Carol Players and, of course, this House went on recognizing and them at the time. record as congratulating Whether or not there was a message sent from the Department of Culture, Recreation and Youth I really cannot answer the hon. gentleman because I do not know.

With regard to his trying to compare the uniforms that were partially funded by the government for the Corner Brook Royals, of course the Royals, as we all know, won their way · to the amateur hockey championship representing this Province, and, of course, the Carol Players were quite different. This was a voluntary exercise where they chose to fund-raise and to go and take

part in a competition overseas. But the Corner Brook Royals, of course, beat the best in Eastern Canada and went on to the finals of the Allan Cup and it is quite different. MR. KELLAND: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hon. member for Naskaupi. MR. KELLAND: I appreciate the difference, Mr. Speaker The Corner Brook Royals did beat the best within this part of the country but keep in mind the Carol Players beat the best in the world and that is something more more significant.

And if you did not know or the government did not have a programme prior to their going, the fact that they Ll734 June 17, 1985 Vol XL were going on their own and had to raise the $12,000 or whatever it was, now that they have won, and the government can be as proud now as we were before they ever went, would you consider looking at a possibility of making an award of a minimum of $1,000 per department keeping in mind that when they went to the Department of Tourism they could not even get a few pins to take over and distribute around with their friends from other countries? It is just unbelievable, Mr.

Minister, that that would happen, that you cannot do something to rectify . it right now. Would the minister consider doing that now? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hen . Minister of Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS : Culture, Mr. Speaker, I can only rei ·terate what .

I have said to the hon. member earlier, and that is t_hat I did a thorough investigation of the programmes in the Cultural Affairs Division of the department to see if there was some money in some way whereby we could assist the Carol Players and we informed them accordingly that we could not fund them, and we still do not have any programme. There is no way that you can take $1,000 here and put it there. The money is designated. And if we did that for some other purpose that the hen. member did not agree with, he would be the first one to come into the House of Assembly and nail us to the wall for it.

We just do not have the flexibility to do that. We just do not have a ·programme whereby we fund such programmes and such trips as the Carol Players undertook. No. 34 Rl734

As regards to his not being able to get pins for the trip from the Tourism Department, I can only say that I am . sure the Minister responsible for Tourism, the Minister of Development and Tourism (Mr. Barrett) · can answer for that. But maybe the request was not done through the proper channels, because I am sure that if it had been that they would have gotten the pins they so requested. But I must say, Mr. Speaker, that because we cannot fund the Carol Players does not mean in any way that we put any less emphasis on cultural affairs or cultural undertakings .

We hold them in the same light as we hold recreation and amateur sport in this Province. It is just that we do not have a programme whereby we can fund the Carol Players. MR. KELLAND: A final supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNic holas): The hon. member had recognized for a supplementary. The hon. member Windsor-Buchans. MR . FLIGHT : been final for Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister for Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle) • The amalgamation of Grand Falls - Windsor has been a very important issue in those two towns over the years.

Would the minister indicate how close amalgamation is to becoming a reality and thereby creating a third city in Newfoundland? MR. SP EAKER : The han. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: I thank the hon. gentleman for his Ll735 June 17, 1985 Vol XL question, Mr. Speaker. Not more than approximately six months ago I had a meeting with the Windsor town council and at that point in time this particular issue did come up and we discussed it at some length. The Windsor town council has a committee in place to deal with this particular issue.

The matter was looked into a number of years ago by the Patterson Commission, a commission that was appointed by the Department of Municipal Affairs to look into that particUlar issue. So the committee is in place in Windsor and if they so choose to approach the Grand Falls town council on that particular issue and to have a further meeting with my department on it, I would be only too pleased to accommodate any requests in that regard. MR. FLIGHT: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The han. member for Windsor Buchans. MR.

FLIGHT: Well, I presume, since there is a committee in place in Windsor, there is a committee in place in Grand Falls. However, if that is not so I am sure the minister will follow up and find out why not. The government is going to have to play a major role in this amalgamation, Mr. Minister, so is the government insisting that amalgamation take place as quickly as possible? What incentives are government offering to bring about the amalgamation as quickly as possible? MR . SPEAKER (McNicholas): The han. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: No. 34 Rl735

Mr. Speaker, it would not be the responsibility- of government or the Department of Municipal Affairs to arbitrarily say to th~ Windsor or Grand Falls town council that they must amalgamate. They do have, as I indicated to the hon. gentleman, a committee in place to look at that particular issue. Now, whatever the recommendations are coming out of those meetings between Grand Falls and Windsor, we would be very, very pleased indeed to pursue it with both these councils. I have had discussions, as a matter of fact, over the last number of months with my colleague as well the member for Grand Falls (Mr.

Simms) , and he has expressed some concern as well. And I indicated, as a matter of fact, when I was in Windsor at a town council meeting, that the comm.i ttee should, once again, try to, insofar as they can, hold their first meeting with the Grand Falls town council to discuss the issue and we will look at it from there. And if a commissioner is necessary, if it is necessary to have a commissioner appointed, to look at the whole thing after these recommendations forward, that is the would take. MR. FLIGHT: come route we A supplementary Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): A final supplementary, the hon. member for Windsor-Buchans. MR. FLIGHT: Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the minister's answer and I am sure the minister realizes, as other ministers .before him, that the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr. Doyle) and the Government of Newfoundland will have to play a major role if amalgamation between Ll736 June 17, 1985 Vol XL Grand Falls and Windsor is ever going to become a reality.

So in my final supplementary I would ask the minister if he would tell the House, based on his relationship with those two councils, and based on his awareness on the amalgamation issue and what it means to all Central Newfoundland and particularly those two towns, would the minister indicate to the House when we can expect, based on what he knows now, that amalgamation will indeed be a reality with all the benefits that will accrue to both those towns as a result of amalgamation?

Will the minister please tell the House when we can expect the amalgamation to become a reality with all the benefits that will accrue · to both towns as a result of amalgamation? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs. MR. DOYLE: It would be impossible for me, at this point in time, to indicate a time frame as to when this might occur. That will depend totally and completely upon the Windsor town council and how quickly they pursue the matter with the Grand Falls town council and what the attitude of the Grand Falls town council would be toward amalgamation with Windsor.

So there are a lot of things to be done before any of this could take place, Mr. Speaker, and it is all, in any event, hypothetical. But should overtures be made to the Department of Municipal Affairs to assist in any way possible, we will be only too pleased. MR. FENWICK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): No. 34 Rl736

The hen. member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Brett). In the budget we have just finished looking over $17 million for the Employment Opportunities Programme. I have had representation from one of the people who-are comtemplating going on the Employment Opportunities Programme in my district and they have pointed out a very major problem with going on it. I will just outline the problem and then ask the question.

As I understand it, the programme pays approximately $5 per hour on the Island -and slightly more in Labrador, but of that $5 an hour, individuals who are single parents and live in Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation subsidized housing will have to pay at least one-quarter of _ that $5 for rent, or $1.25 an hour, and if they have children who have to be looked after, will have to pay a minimum of $2.75 for a housekeeper, for a total of $4.00 per hour.

My question to the Minister of Social Services is, since that only leaves $1 an hour net income for these recipients, how in God's name are they expected to live on the programme? MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hen. the Services. MR. BRETT: Minister of Social Mr. Speaker, it is a good question. That is an anomaly that does exist. It is the exception rather than the rule, of course.

There are a few cases across the Province whereby people would be Ll737 June 17, 1985 Vol XL better off if they stayed on welfare rather than go to work on a Community Development project but, as I said, it is the exception rather than the rule. When a person is in receipt of social assistanc~, then the rent is paid by the department; and once the person comes off the social assistance rolls and goes to work, then that person has to pay 25 per cent of his salary towards rent. So the case does exist, there are a few such cases across the Province. It is something that we are aware of and are dealing with.

There is no easy solution to it. It is unfortunate, of course, that in cases like this it is better for people to stay on welfare. But we are dealing with it as best we can and, hopefully, we will find a solution to the problem. MR. FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): A supplementary, the hen. the member for Menihek. MR. FENWICK: Unfortunately, the individual who brought this problem to my attention last week and for whom I have written a letter to the Minister of Social Services (Mr.

Brett) so that he knows about the problem, has indicated to me today that she will not be able to take advantage of the programme because she does not see how $35 a week is adequate clothing, yet been adequate. income to pay for food, and so on. We have not able to find how it is I would like to ask the minister, since he does indicate that there are things that he is looking forward to doing for them, could he give us some indication of what he is planning to do for these unfortunate individuals, of No. 34 Rl737

whom I think, by the way, there are a significant number in th·ose circumstances? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Social Services. MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, there is no firm decision made at this point in time because, as I indicated, there is only a very small number of people affected. We are looking at some changes. For example, right now, a person is allowed to deduct $130, I believe, a month for day care~ we are looking at increasing that to $200. We are also taking a look at permitting income derived from Community Development prQjects to be considered allowable income.

These are two things we are looking at. This may relieve the problem somewhat, but I do not think it will solve it in its entirety. There is no firm decision yet on what we are going to do. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. BRETT: Mr. Speaker, it is very difficult to try to speak above the noise here. I do not know if you want me to shout or what. I am trying to answer questions. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR. BRETT: I want to repeat, Mr.

Speaker, that the number of cases is small, which makes it more difficult, because you do not want to change a whole programme when only a small number of people are affected. That does not lessen the problem. We recognize the Ll738 June 17, 1985 Vol XL problem and I repeat · that we are trying in some way to solve it. MR. FENWICK: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): A final supplementary, the bon. the member for Menihek. MR.

FENWICK: Since part of the problem is caused by the Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation insisting on 25 per cent of the gross income for rent as soon . as people go off social assistance, I would like to direct a final supplementary to the Minister responsible for Newfoundland and Labrador Housing Corporation (Mr. Dinn) and ask him 'is there anything that he can do from his direction to ensure that this kind of trap that these people are in does not continue to exist? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Mines and Energy. MR. DINN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to be able to say there is something I can do fairly quickly. The problem is, of course, that we do have a federal/provincial housing agreement, CMHC and Newfoundland and Labrador Housing, and that agreement is in place for 1985, one that was signed three or four years ago. We will be meeting in Calgary, Alberta, I believe it is, in the week of the first of July and at that point in time we are attempting to work out another federal/provincial agreement for 1986 and we hope to address that item at the meeting in Calgary in July. MR. K. AYLWARD: Mr. Speaker. No. 34 Rl738

MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The han. the member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. question to the Culture, Recreation It concerns the Youth I direct my Minister of and Youth. Advisory Council and their recommendations in a report . made two - years ago, in 1983, to the provincial government on youth unemployment which has since risen about 10 percentage points and is massive and out of c;:ontrol right now. It arose in the Estimates Committees when we were debating back and forth.

I am wondering, first o£f, if the minister has made any further representation to the Minister of Career Development (Mr. Power) on those recommendations made by the Youth Advisory Council and, if he has made those representations, can he report to this House what he has said to them? MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS : Mr. Speaker, I have had discussions with the han. Minister of Career Development pertaining to the very serious problem that we have of youth unemployment in the Province.

I advised the han. member in the Estimates Committee that I will do that and I have consequently done it. I have also asked my other colleagues of the Cabinet to have a very serious look at and to follow up on the Youth Advisory Council report presented to government and to review it accordingly. So, yes, I have had discussions with him on it and he is having a very serious look at the report and, of course, Ll739 June 17, 1985 Vol XL there may be some initiatives that we may be able to take to try and address this very serious problem. MR. K. AYLWARD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): A supplementary, the han. member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: the If you have done that I would like to see something on it. Also, what link does the Youth Advisory Council have to Career Development? What importance do you see as their role in the recommendations that they have made? Are they an important link to Career Development with the massive problem we have now in youth unemployment? MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The han. Minister of Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS: Culture, Mr.

Speaker, I think they are a very important and effective link to all departments of government, to be very honest with you. The thing is that they have made a report to Cabinet and the respective departments of government have had a look at the report and are right now assessing it and trying to come up with some I guess basic responses whereby we may be able to jointly, as all departments of government, help the very serious youth unemployment problem that we have.

And, of course, I would just like to remind the han. member, and all han. members of the House, that this year for the first time that we are involved as a provincial government in funding youth employment throughout the Province and we are putting $2 million into the SEED Programme No. 34 Rl739

which will see some 6,000 young people employed in the Province. MR. K. AYLWARD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A final supplementary, the hen. member for Stephenville. MR. K. AYLWARD: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. First off I would like to ask the minister has he read the report concerning the recommendations to the government by the Youth Advisory Council for 1983? Also, has he read the response made by the provincial government to that report?

As far as I am concerned and a lot of people are concerned out there, the provincial government's response pays lip service to the recommendations made by the Youth Advisory Council and says the federal government can take care of it and it is out o~ our hands and we cannot do anything about it. Have you read that response that the government made back to the Youth Advisory Council and have you read the report itself? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS : Culture, The answer to that, Mr. Speaker, is yes, I have seen both.

But, I mean, I would be less than honest if I did not say that the problem of youth unemployment, and the problem of employment in general in this Province is a very serious problem, it is a very serious and a very difficult job to tackle, a very tough job to tackle. You cannot make jobs overnight but we are attempting to do so and, as I said to the hen. member before, for the first time this year we Ll740 June 17, 1985 Vol XL are putting $2 million into a youth empl-oyment programme.

And also, of course, as a result of_ the report that has been made· to government, we are involving youth at every opportunity we get to participate in the decision-making process of government, at community levels and all the way up through, from community to regional to provincial levels. All departments of government have had a directive from the Premier telling us, encouraging us to include youth in all the various advisory boards that we can. So we are very, very concerned about youth, Mr. Speaker, very, very concerned.

We not only want to pay lip services to youth, we want to address the problem of unemployment and we are trying to do that as best we can. And' we are listening to youth, I guess probably much to the disappointment of hen. members opposite. Much to their disappointment we are listening to youth for the first time in this Province, Mr. Speaker, and I think that members opposite get a little bit annoyed when we do that. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. K. AYLWARD: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! A supplementary, the hen. the member for Stephenville. MR. K.

AYLWARD: Well, just concerning that SEED Programme, that is not even going to affect the 40 per cent because that is affecting students who just came out looking for employment for the Summer. And that is fine and welcomed, but No. 34 Rl740

there is nothing at all being done or any initiatives taken by the provincial government. concerning the 40-odd per cent and rising of youth unemployment. And all I am asking you is what representation yol.l ha~e made? If you are going to table that tell me what you have done since we have those talks and see what impact it has on Career Development and what it has on that provincial government over there which should be doing something about the problem, which they are not doing now? That is all I am asking you. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. MATTHEWS: Mr.

Speaker, what I say to that is it is obvious that the hen. member for Stephenville (Mr. K. Aylward) does not listen very well because when he was in the Estimates Committee a week or so ago he asked the very same qu~stions, we gave him the answers, but at the same time, of course, we gave him a little direction which he did not take because this department is not directly responsible for youth employment or youth unemployment in this Province. The hen. Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Power) is the minister he should be talking to. What I told him then and I tell him again - SOME BON.

MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR. K. AYLWARD: You spent over $2 million and now you are saying you are not responsible. Ll741 June 17, 1985 Vol XL MR. MATTHEWS: I did not spend the $2 million. I would love to have the opportunity to spend the $2 million. But the situation is that development of employment opportunities in this Province fall directly under the jurisdiction of the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr.. Power) and, of course, tied in with a number · of other departments.

The thing is that we use the Youth Advisory Council and any other youth agencies that there are to pass their views on, we channel them to · the appropriate departments and ask for the co-operation of the various departments of government. But we are not directly responsible for youth employment or youth unemployment in this Province. We are a vehicle that try to assist youth through the other departments. MR. LUSH: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hen. North. MR.

LUSH: member for Bonavista I have a Minister Rideout). question for the hen. (Mr. the of Fisheries I wonder if minister is aware of the unfortunate financial plight in which approximately 300 fishermen from the district of Bonavista North and areas along the Northeast Coast find themselves. These fishermen, through computer errors in calculating pay and catches, and the minister is familiar with how that is done for UIC benefits, because of these computer errors these fishermen have been assessed UIC overpayments by the UIC Commission and Revenue Canada amounting to thousands of dollars to each No. 34 Rl741

individual fishermen. So if the minister is aware of this, I wonder if he. can indicate to the House what is the status of this situation which is causing untold frustration and anxiety to these 300 fishermen and their families throughout the Northeast Coast and particularly in the district of Bonavista North? MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. hon. some to.

Speaker, let me say to the gentleman that I am aware of of the problem that he refers I do not know if the number amounts to 300 people or not, but I do that there have been various mistakes in computer programming with the Unemployment Insurance Programme. I know my colleague for LaPoile (Mr. Mitchell) was mentioning this matter to me only just a few days ago, because he has run into a similar problem down in his constituency, so a number of us as MHAs, and myself as minister, have made representation to the Unemployment Insurance Commission.

In fact, we have gone so far as to file appeals on behalf of fishermen hoping that we could get a couple of test cases through the appeal procedure so that we might be able through the proper channels to have the problem corrected. So I have been involved in it as minister and I have been involved with it as the member for my own constituency. So we are working on the matter. AN HON. MEMBER: What about the caplin fishery?: MR. RIDEOUT: It is pretty difficult to tell, Ll742 June 17, 1985 Vol XL Mr. Speaker.

Because while you can tell something about the· 'hon. gentleman, who is easy to predict, caplin have tails so I have trouble predicting what they are going to do. But we are very much aware o~ it. We are doing what we can through the appeal procedure to try to get some of those regulations changed. MR. LUSH: A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): A supplementary, the hon. member for Bonavista North. MR. LUSH: Mr.

Speaker, that situation certainly came to light or, let us say, it was emphasized during the election, at which time several Cabinet ministers then wired the appropriate minister in Ottawa asking that something be done about this problem immediately. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is sometime ago since the election. I am wondering if the minister has suggested to the appropriate federal minister the authority that the minister has under the UIC regulations where, if a situation can. be deemed to be causing financial hardship, that this assessment can be done away with, particularly, Mr.

Speaker, since this mistake was not made by the fishermen, it was made by the computers. And in view of the fact that the fishermen are innocent, can the minister not move in all haste to remove this anxiety this is causing fishermen, because they are having pay deducted from their cheques now if they are receiving UIC, in view of the fact that legislation can cover this whereby these overpayments can be done away with. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): No. 34 Rl742

The hen. Minister of Fisheries. MR. RIDEOUT: Mr. Speaker, again I concur wholeheartedly with the · hen. gentleman. It seems to me to be a very sad state of ~£fairs when individuals become liable for mistakes that are made by others or by other agencies or by computers and people end up individually liable for them. I can say to the hen. gentleman, who probably did not understand what I was saying, we have moved on a couple of fronts. We have made representation to the federal minister, to - Miss MacDonald, is the minister concerned, along the lines that he suggested.

And I believe that has also been representation made by my predecessor before I became the minister responsible. Also, a couple of us have taken the other route, of course, which is open to us, and that is to try the appeal procedure as well. I know in my own case over the last number of years I have had some degree of success with the appeal procedures laid down within the UIC regulations, and I have won some cases and I have lost some. So there are two lines of attack here.

One, along the lines that he suggested, is we have made representation to the appropriate federal minister, and some of us, as members, have also gone the other route, of course, which is used in the system that is already in place, to try to put forth a special argument before the appeals committee, and up to the umpire if necessary, to try to point out the validity and the legitimacy of the cases that he is talking about. MR. SPEAKER (McNic holas): Order, please! Ll743 June 17, 1985 Vol XL The time for Oral Questions has elapsed.

Before calling the next i tern, I would like to welcome a delegation from the Town of St. Lawrence, their Mayor, George Doyle, councillors Pike and Loader and town clerk, Greg Quirk . SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! Orders of the Day MR. MARSHALL: The first motion is Government Services Committee. MR. SP EAKE R: The concurrence motion, Government Services. The debate was adjourned by the hen. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. The hen. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. He has twenty-one minutes remaining. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. DEC KER : Mr.

Speaker, I am not supposed to question the ruling but I did not think I had twenty-one minutes left, but I can certainly take it. In the concurrence debate, Mr. Speaker, on the Government Services Committee, and in my few brief remarks I was telling this hen. House how we reviewed the Department of Public Works. It was no surprise to members of this House, Mr. Speaker, that what we found was a viper's nest of political patronage. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! No. 34 Rl743

Could I interrupt the han. member for a moment. I made a mistake with twenty-one minutes. He actually has eleven minutes left. The han. member for the Strait of Belle Isle. MR. DECKER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It was just a nest of vipers, if I only have eleven minutes. . Right in the very department which was responsible for the Public Service Commission, we found that the only way a young person could get a job in Newfoundland was to join the -· Tory Party. Then we also met with the Minister of Transportation (Mr.

Dawe) and there we found the first cousin of political patronage, the custom of building roads in Tory districts. Then, Mr. Speaker, just before we adjourned debate, I was informing this bon. House that we met with the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) and officials of the Department of Finance. The very first question that was put to the Minister of Finance was this: What are your qualifications to be Minister of Finance of this Province? Now, Mr. Speaker, this was not a frivolous question.

It was not put because the bon. minister happens to be a medical doctor by profession, even though the Minister of Justice is very often a lawyer and the Minister of Education is very often a former teacher, or a teacher. But that was not the reason this question was asked of the Minister of Finance. It was asked because he is just incapable of balancing the budget, he is just incapable of informing the people of Newfoundland just how much he is Ll744 June 17, 1985 Vol XL going to be out by.

In years past we were told that the budget was going to be out by $25 million or $30 million, and before the year was over we got an interim report telling ?S 1 no, that was wrong, we are going to be out by $60 million, or what have you. I am not sure of the figures, Mr. Speaker, but I am sure this bon. House can get the gist of what I am saying. Now the han. minister comes in again and says that we are going to overspend the current budget by $72 million.

In view of the fact that in other years we were told that we were going to overspend by a certain amount and it doubled what was predicted, the same question comes up, are we going to overspend again? Thus the question, what are your qualifications, Mr. Minister, to be Minister of Finance? It has nothing to do with the fact that he is a medical doctor, but it has to do with the fact that he just cannot get his figures straight. His answer as to what his qualifications are is that the Premier chose him, and in the spirit of being chosen by this supreme being, the minister trusts faith to balance his budget. Mr.

Speaker, when bon. minister did we asked the he think that this Province could ever anticipate paying off the bills that it owes, could this Province ever look forward to the day when we could balance our current account, 'something happen.' his answer always seems was, to He referred to the past, how some of the major hydro developments just came along and bailed us out of a hard time. I would assume that he was referring to the fact No. 34 Rl744

that Bowater started up on the West Coast in a bad time in our history. I would assume that he was referring to The Anglo Newfoundland Development Company, when they put life in Grand Falls. But, Mr. Speaker, these events did not just happen. Nothing just · happens. Somebody has to make things happen. This is the weakness, this is why we are asking about the qualifications of the han. the Minister of Finance. Some men, Mr. Speaker, ask why, other men ask why not. What we need today in this Province is- a minister who has the courage to ask why not - the courage to get out and make things happen.

This is what we have to have in our Province today. The building of the Trans-Canada Highway, Mr. Speaker, did not just happen, it was made happen. The hum just did not find its way back on the Humber. Men of conviction and courage put the hum back on the Humber. The Anglo-Newfoundland Development Company did not just happen along at a time when our economy was in a slump, men of courage and men of vision made it happen. What we need today is a government, a Finance Minister, a Premier, men who have the faith, the conviction and the courage to make things happen.

We do not have those men sitting on the other side of this House today, and that is what our problem is all about. We do not have men of conviction, but we have a Finance Minister who mimics the Premier when he trusts to blind faith that something is going to stumble along one of these days, something is just going to happen. He said, something is going to happen. The offshore, Mr. Speaker, is just not Ll745 June 17, 1985 Vol XL going to happen, it has to be made happen.

We have to have men of courage and conviction get out and make things happen, otherwise this Province will pontinue her downward slide on the roller coaster. She is going to continue on down hill, Mr. Speaker, until before we know it we are going to be in a state of bankruptcy, if someone does not have the courage arid conviction and the knowledge and the ability to make something happen. Mr. Speaker, it was quite evident in our review of the Department of Finance that there is nobody even attempting to make things happen. This, Mr.

Speaker, is one of the problems that we are encountered with in this Province today. The Government Services Committee looked at other departments as well. We looked at the Department of Municipal Affairs and we found, Mr. Speaker, in that department an outstanding Deputy Minister, a man who is doing an excellent job. We found that there is some evidence of patronage in that department as well with the temporary employees.

But in fairness to the minister, I would say in view of the fact that there are applications from my district, I would say that this is probably one of the better departments that we did interview. We also examined the Department of Labour and the Department of Consumer Affairs and Communications. But the same old story was creeping in, a tired administration, an worm-out administration, bereft of imagination, bankrupt of ideas, incapable of dealing with a Province which is in the mess that this Province is in, unable to cope with the reality of 1985, No. 34 Rl745

harping back to the year 1885 to find answers to todays questions. And what we fqund evidence of, Mr. Speaker, and I am sad to have to report this to this hon. House, what we found, Mr. Speaker, was a government which is good at getting elected, they have all the skills to sweep them in power. These are the skills, Mr. Speaker, which I said give politicians a bad name. These are the skills which make the people of this Province refer to politicians as being something subhuman, which make Newfoundlanders out there be cynical, not believing. And _the unfortunate thing about it, Mr.

Speaker, is that those of us on this side of the House, upright and genuine though : we may be, are tarred with the same mop. It is unfortunate that the government in power has the ability to get elected, and to get re-elected, but they do not have one iota about the ability to govern. And that is the problem, Mr. Speaker, that they have the skills to get elected, but they do not have the skills to govern. And that, Mr. Speaker, is the

summary of my reply in this debate, and that, Mr. Speaker, summarizes the problem of this Province today. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. member for Torn gat Mountains. MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I think it would be only appropriate for me to follow the hon. gentleman for the Strait of Belle Isle. (Mr. Decker). Listening to the hon. gentleman on Friday and listening to him again today, I did not know but I was on Ll746 June 17, 1985 Vol XL the road to Demascus or on the hill of Gallilee. Mr.

Speaker, the -hon. gentleman started of in the same vein as his leader, and I do not blame him for that. The hon. gentleman, in speaking about the estimates that went through the committee, started off by making a vicious attack on the Minister of Public Norks and Services (Mr. Young), that is where he started, condemning the Public Service Commission of this Province. I was going back over Hansard on Friday and I did underline a couple of things that the hon. gentleman said.

He said, Speaker, Public stifled "The very department, which encompasses Service Commission the Commission, Mr. the has has smothered the Commission, has destroyed it." Now, Mr. Speaker, for a new politician, a new gentleman to come into this House and make those accusations against the Department of Public Works and against the Public Service Commission, I think, the hon. gentleman should know something about the vital role that the Public Service Commission is playing in this Province. Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. Minister of Public Works (Mr.

Young) in the Committee and the Chairman of the Public Service Commission have indicated to the hon. gentleman in his questioning that they do not take orders from politicians who are selected for a particular position, and that, I think, is a fair assumption. He also said, "this is what the conuni ttee found out about the department which is in charge of the Public Service Commission." He said "it is not a reflection on the Commission." But by him No. 34 Rl746

saying that alone, Mr. Speaker, he is putting a dark cloud over the Public Service Commission and the gentleman should not be allowed to have those words recorded and lead people to believe that there is a dark cloud hanging over the Public Service Commission. He also said that "our skills to get elected gives us a bad name" and he said "but it is evident in the Committee that the members on the other side of the House do not have the skills to govern." Mr.

Speaker, I believe I would say to the han. gentleman, if the members on this side of the House did not have the skills to govern, I am sure that the han. gentlemen are not saying that the average Newfoundlander and Labradorian is not bright to kick the crowd out on this side. So, the han. gentleman should remember that what he is saying is that the people of Newfoundland and Labrador have not got the skills or are not intelligent enough to kick the people out in power if they are not governing right. This is what the han. gentleman is saying.

He is not condemning us as politicians, he is condemning the Newfoundlanders and Labradorians who go to the polls at the different elections and decide what candidate they want. So the han. gentleman's words, although loud and everything else, but I think the common sense that goes along with them is very low. Now, Mr. Speaker, I have to also say a few words about the Leader of the Opposition's (Mr. Barry) comments when he spoke in the debate. You know he spent twenty-three minutes lambasting the media. The media, as far as he was concerned, should be into the committees. Mr.

Speaker, for the han. gentleman from St. Barbe (Mr. Furey) and the all the other Ll747 June 17, 1985 Vol XL new han. gentlemen, and the han. member looking in through the door there, who was not here during previous sessions, I should probably remind them the same kind of letter that the han. the Leader of the Opposition got sent out now to the media is the same kind of letter that the han. former leader, Len Sterling, sent out, and the han. Steve Neary, sent out. The same kind of letter is handed down and is going out to the media.

So all they are doing is begging the media to say, 'Look, we have something to . say. Please come out and listen to us.' Now, Mr. Speaker, I think if the han. the Leader of the Opposition is so naive to believe that the media in this Province is going to chase him around and is going to go where he wants them to go then I believe, Mr. Speaker, that the media, as far as I am concerned, is much brighter than that. They will not listen to the Leader of the Opposition. They knew when the committees were working.

The letters that the han. the Leader of the Opposition received says that we have not got the manpower to get there so therefore we will go when we feel like it. So, Mr. Speaker, for the Leader of the Opposition to get up here and spend twenty-three minutes talking about the media not covering him and then, not only that, two days before he wrote that letter, he was on CBC television when the han. Minister of the Environment (Mr.

Butt) was on and he was saying to the media 'it is right for the media to do this.' So, actually he was condemning himself and trying to use two spectrums and working in differant directions. Now, Mr. concluding No. 34 Speaker, remarks the in han his the Rl747

member for the (Mr. Decker) was is no intestinal side. There is the determination get things done. Strait of Belle saying that there fortitude on this nobody here got and the will to Let me say to the hon. gentleman on that side, who was it had the determination and the will and would not give up to get the Atlantic Accord signed, was that the members on that side or the members on this side? Who was it was determined to get the Atlantic Accord signed? Who was it was determined to get the Kruger bill signed? Who was it reactivated the St. Lawrence mine?

You talk about conviction and determination and intestinal forti tude, this is where it is corning from, on this side. Mr. Speaker, maybe I should add to what the hon. Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Simms) is saying, one of the reasons that I carne over probably was because I . knew that there is only one way to get things done in this Province of Newfoundland and Labrador, by joining the government on this side. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. LUSH: What an indictment against democracy (inaudible). MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I would say to the hon. the member for Bonavista North (Mr.

Lush) the same thing, Sir, what an indictment against democracy when you would leave politics one month and back again the next month. So, Mr. Speaker, you are talking about democracy, it works on both sides and anybody, Mr. Speaker, got a right Ll748 June 17, 1985 Vol XL to get elected for any political party and got a right to stay with any party that they feel like staying, Mr. Speaker. AN HON. MEMBER: He could not get along with the teacher. MR. WARREN: So, Mr. Speaker, I am sure the hon. gentleman was- a good teacher in the classroom and I am sure he will make his contribution to the House of Assembly.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I am sure the hon. member cannot go shouting too much about moving from party to party. If he would look to his right there you can see sitting to the hon. gentleman's right is a person that was not always on that side. Now, Mr. Speaker, in Transportation I notice the hon. gentleman did make a dig at the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) about only paving roads, only building roads in Tory districts. Mr. Speaker, I cannot get one cent from the hon. minister for my district for roads. I cannot get it. Mr. Speaker, as far as I am concerned the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.

Decker) has not been truthful to this House, he has definitely misled the House by saying that it is only for Tory districts. Now I cannot get any money from the Department of Transportation for roads in my district. I am Tory, sure I am a Tory and I am proud of it. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, I had to laugh driving home in the car there Friday afternoon, I was listening - No. 34 Rl748

SOME HON. MEMBE RS ; Oh, oh! MR. WAR.REN: When the hon. gentleman is a little bit quiet I will continue. MR. SPEAKER (M cNi cholas) : Order, please! MR. WARREN: I am awfully surprised at the hon. member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. FLight) never started to give me a rough time today, you know why? Because the last time he tried it I had give him the history of Labrador, so today he has been very quiet. I must compliment the member for that, he has been very, very quiet today. Now, Mr. Speaker, as I was saying, when the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.

Decker) on Friday was talking about the concerns and the estimates, he was giving some critical comments about the various departments here, and driving home in my car, who should I listen to on one of the news broadcasts was the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle talking about the water and sewer system for Roddickton. · AN HON. MEMBER: Is that a fact? MR. WARREN: That is a fact, on Friday, yes. The hon. gentleman's voice was on the news media. MR. DAWE: The same person who does not like the Budget? MR. WARREN : That is right.

He was the same person who was up in this House on Friday criticizing this government, as he said today, on Ll749 June 17, 1985 Vol XL no action, inaction. AN HON. MEMBER: Was he bawling when he was on the radio? MR. WARREN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, he was just as vocal on one -of the media stations as he was today. What he comes out and says, he got a water and sewer system for the town of Roddickton. That is what he was talking about. AN HON. MEMBE.R: He did? MR. WARREN: Yes, this is what he was talking about. MR. SIMMS: You better check that out. MR. WARREN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I find it so unusual.

You know, if the gentleman got up and criticized where criticism is needed and give credit where credit is needed then it would be understandable. Mr. Speaker, in the Committees the hon. gentleman, and this is a true fact, at least, he told the truth today, the first question he asked the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) what were his qualifications? I am sure now the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle or the hon. member for St. Barbe (Mr. Furey) or the hon. member for Eagle .River (Mr.

Hiscock), I am sure we do not care what your qualifications are, I am sure the Minister of Finance does not care what your qualifications are, nor does the hon. gentleman for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) care what my qualifications are, and I do not care what his are, but I can tell you that much that No. 34 Rl749

I believe the Minister qf Finance, under the extreme conditions that the Province has been going through, the country has been going through, the international countries have been going through, I think, for the Minister of Finance (Dr. Coilins) to be in that . same position now going on seven years, I would say that it shows he has a lot of intestinal fortitude to withstand the pressures as the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins). SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: So I think he has to be given credit and the Premier has to be given credit. MR.

SIMMS: Even more credit then perhaps the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight). MR. WARREN: That is right. I think the Premier has to be given credit to keep the present Minister of Finance in that position so long. MR. DECKER: You are a patient fellow, I will say that much for you. MR. WARREN: Well, I will tell you this much, the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle, I must say, you were very patient in the question that you asked him. In fact, Mr.

Speaker, I think he must be because the next day there was a question asked in the House of Assembly to the Minister of Finance, the only intelligent question, or one of the very few intelligent questions that was asked to the Minister of Finance was when I asked him the question Ll750 June 17, 1985 Vol XL about the imported beer, because the next day in the House of all of the questions that were asked to the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins) someone on that side got up and asked the minister the same question in the House of Assembly. So it shows, Mr.

Speaker, regardless of which side of the House of Assembly that you are on, if you want to find out what is good for Newfoundland and Labrador, you have to ask the minister the question. Mr. Speaker, while I was talking, I did not hear the hon. member, but if he wants t~ repeat it I can probably answer him. MR. FLIGHT: What is the member doing to try and alleviate the problems being created by the strike at the breweries? MR. WARREN: What is the member doing? The member is trying . to do, Sir, as much as any member in this House is trying to do.

They are in a legal strike and, unfortunately, it is hurting not only you and I probably, as a consumer of the beverage, but it is hurting many, many other people who have large mortgages on taverns and lounges throughout this Province. I have had many calls from friends of mine and people that I do not even know who are concerned about this long legal strike that is on at the brewery. And, Mr. Speaker, I think the hon. Minister of Labour (Mr. Blanchard) is ready, willing and able to help anytime they want to sit down and help. And he has said this in the House.

He called upon all parties to get together and one of the parties did not get together and, subsequently, the strike is delayed again. No. 34 Rl750

Now, Mr. Speaker, any other questions that the hon. member would like to ask, I am sure I can answer any question that the hon. gentleman would like to ask. MR. SPEAKER (Baird): Order, please! I would like to remind the member for Torngat Mountains that the Question Period is over about a half an hour ago. If he wishes to continue his speech, do so. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, the bon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Decker) has also spoken about people getting contractual, temporary or part-time employment with the government.

I think in the Committees the bon. member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock) asked the bon. Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development (Mr. Aylward) about a particular person who was employed by his department after the election. Mr. Speaker, I am sure the hon. minister and myself, all concerned, were quite concerned about the charges that the hon. member for Eagle River made in which the dates were unfounded. I took the opportunity of getting a full report done on this particular individual who is working with our department. I might say that everything has been done according to the Statutes.

Everything has been done according to law and this guy was already hired on after everything was followed to a tee. So for anyone to say that there is political patronage for part-time, full-time or anyone else I think that all Ll751 June 17, 1985 Vol XL those part-time position have been carried out as the law dictates. Now, Mr ~ Speaker, in some of the other estimates was consumer affairs. You know, Mr. Speaker, there were over 1,000 cases reported to consumer affairs last year. And, Mr. Speaker, over .500 of those were responded to. Now, the Minister of Consumer Affairs (Mr.

Russell) had one of the smallest budgets in this Province, Consumer Affairs and Communications. But if one looked at the - it is not a major money spending department because it practically recovers what money it spends - transaction - AN BON. MEMBER: A quorum call, Mr. Speaker. Quorum MR. SPEAKER (Baird): There are fourteen members present. The bon. member for Torngat Mountains. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. WARREN: Now, Mr. Speaker, I only have fifteen or twenty minutes left so I think I am going to just make a couple of comments on transportation.

I think on the weekend the bon. member for Stephenville (Mr. K. Aylward) was making a couple of comments about how pleased he was to see EPA having a new

schedule going into Stephenville and there are going to be an extra three individuals hired on. The hon. member should also know that the Labrador Airways has increased No. 34 Rl751

their staff in Stephenville up to, I think, it is thirty-two individuals working in Stephenville from Labrador Airways. And Labrador Airways is a locally owned company run by Newfoundlanders and here, Mr. Speaker. MR. FLIGHT: When they get big enough they will do what EPA has done. MR. WARREN: They are expanding and within a very, very short time in my district of Torngat Mountains, in the hon. member for Eagle River 1 s (Mr. Hiscock) district, we will probably see a five-day-a-week service from a company from Labrador Airways, a company that is concerned SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR.

WARREN: about the smaller communities along the Coast of Newfoundland and Labrador. They are planning to · buy two or three new aircrafts to service the people. In the paper this weekend it was announced that they were planning to open up a maintenance area here in St. John 1 s where they service their Dash - 8. So, Mr. Speaker, you can see that Labrador Airways, the locally-owned company that members should be proud to support, should come out and support companies like this, have the initiative to get things going, to get things done. And, Mr.

Speaker, from all this we hope we will also see better medical facilities, better medical transportation along the Labrador Ll752 June 17, 1985 Vol XL Coast. I say this to the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Dawe) and the Minister of Health (Dr. Twomey) working hand in hand, foot to foot, toe to· toe, working together to make sure that the medical problems and the transportation problems along the Labrador Coast will be not necessarily completely solved, but at least they will be greatly, greatly improved.

And this is what the people have been asking for and this is what, I am sure, this government will be initiating in a very, very short time. Mr. ·Speaker, also in the various Committee meetings, I suppose I should say, with all due respect to the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Decker), he was not as critical as some of his colleagues were, and I think, Mr.

Speaker, it was a concern of mine, as well as members on that side, the lack of media attendance at those meetings, but I believe there is little use when we as individuals, we as politicians, in particular the Opposition, day after day after day after day, are getting up and crying because there is no media following the committees. I believe if we are going to discuss housing procedures, if we are going to discussing how we are spending millions and millions of dollars, then the media should make sure they have staff available to cover the estimates. Mr.

Speaker, I have to go back on political patronage again because I believe that is what the hon. member for the Strait of Belle Isle continued to bring up. And I have to say, in all fairness to the Public Service Commission, Mr. Withers would not tolerate politicians being involved, trying to undercut the Commission 1 s No. 34 Rl752

authority. The Commission has been doing a great job, and I am sure the Commission will continue to make sure the best possible selections are made. Mr. Speaker, I believe that if we looked at our estimates, the member for Carbonear (Mr. Peach) who brought forward those estimates, - MR. FLIGHT: Sit down 'Garfield'. listening? MR. WARREN: Is anybody Mr. Speaker, I do not care if the hon. member for Windsor Buchans (Mr. Flight) is listening or not. I do not believe too many people listened to him in 1982 when he went to the polling booth, because Mr.

Speaker, he got the shock of his life and I am sure if the hon. gentleman does not watch his bobber for the next three or four years he will be out on the street again and expecting Mr. Rompkey to give him a political appointment after the next election. Mr. Speaker, you know it is amazing when they get up on that side all they talk about, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Barry), the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr. Decker), they continue to talk about political patronage.

I believe all we have to do is look back over the dying months of Trudeau and Turner in the political field and you will see that there were many, many, many appointments made and I am sure that they were of a political nature. And I would just like to say one thing in closing and I say this to all bon. members of this Bouse, because some day soon some of us Ll753 June 17, 1985 Vol XL may be defeated at the polls, we may be defeated at the poll,s and we have paid our price in the House of Assembly.

We look back at our former colleagues, they have paid their price in the Bouse of Assembly, they have worked on behalf of their constituents and I think everybody who has been defeated over the last number of years have paid their price, and the least thing any government can do, or any defeated politician who has spent his time in the Bouse of Assembly, is to make sure that every arrangement possible is made to assist them in finding employment because I think anybody who went through the ropes of working for their constituents for a number of years, the least they deserve after they leave here is for assistance from the government in power, whether they are Tory, Liberal or NDP, I do not care what political affiliation they are, the least thing that should be done is to make sure that they can assist them where possible in finding employment.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. HISCOCK: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The bon. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. With regard to the Estimates on Social Services, I particularly would like to address the Department of Education and also Career Development. We have come a long way the Conservatives would make us believe in the past thirteen years, but one of the things the member for St. John's North (Mr. J. Carter) who was the Minister of No. 34 Rl753

Education under the Moores' Administration, shortly after the Liberals were defeated, would· completely agree with me is that during the Liberal years education was probably the cornerstone. There are probably four cornerstones for the Liberal Party in the Province and one was Education; creating schools in our Province, vocational schools, Fisheries College, Trade School, as well as the university; another cornerstone of course was Health; hospitals around our Province, clinics and nursing stations; another one was Fisheries; and of course the other one was mining and agriculture.

We have seen the resource sector of this Province in the budget, less money being spent in the resource sector than in other service departments. We see less money spent in the Department of Education and in Health. When I asked the Minister of Career Development and Advanced studies (Mr. Power) about student loans, his answer was that when he first went to University he was paid $100, his tuition was paid for, and his books were paid for by the Smallwood administrati'on.

Now he is Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies and we have the highest rate of youth unemployment, we have the lowest percentage attending post-secondary education institutions, and when asked about aid being provided through student loans, the minister parrots, like the others over there, and says it is the most liberal student aid progranune in the country, and we are the poorest Province, which is balderdash. Mr. Speaker, students now have to borrow the maximum loan before they qualify for any grant, Ll754 June 17, 1985 Vol XL

whereas before they did not have to get a loan, it depended on their parents earnings and their own earnings. With regard to trade schools, if you are lucky enough to get . a Manpower seat you can go to trade school. If not, and you have to go on your own or as a provincial student, you get $100. Board along in St. John's is $65 per weeks, and most times that does not include weekends. With regard to Career Development, we have seen, as far as I am concerned, complete and utter chaos in our vocational system of education.

The minister had the nerve and the gall to admit that the vocational school system in this Province is in utter chaos, that the courses are redundant in some of the trade schools, they are outdated, that the and the job market is full. And this administration has stood idly by for the past thirteen years, Mr. Speaker, while people were getting Manpower seats, applying for courses, getting the $100, when government had statistics which showed that job opportunities were nil.

They allowed people to go in for clerk-typing, mechanics, and carpentry courses knowing full-well that these courses were outdated, as the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Power) said, allowed them to go into these courses and then, when ·they were finished, stand in line not for a job, Mr. Speaker, but for unemployment. I think that is cruel, I think it is sadistic, and I think it is callous. Not only that, Mr. Speaker, but it shows the contempt that this government has toward the working class in this Province. They allowed courses to continue No. 34 Rl754

which are outdated, to use the minister's own words, where we have too many mechanics, too many electricians, too many clerk-typists - and the member for Carbonear (Mr. Peach agrees ) , and everybody else agrees - and these courses are still going to be offered in September and students are still going to be taking them. Now, if the students were provided with statistics showing that the job market was filled as far as these course were concerned and they still decided in favour of them, then that is their problem.

But students are being led down the garden path and the main reason is that if they are going to school they are not on the unemployment lists; if they are drawing unemployment and going to school at the same time, they are not in the job market competing for the few jobs in this Province. So I think what is happening with our trade schools is scandalous. We have found out over the past several years that our trade schools have become glorified high schools.

They are now allowing students in Grades IX, X, and XI to do preliminary courses in those trades schools, and if it were not for those students in Conception Bay South the trade school in Seal Cove, Mr. Speaker, would be closed down. If it was not for such students over on Bell Island that one would be closed down, and if it was not for such students in Bonavista, that one would be closed down, and the same in St. Anthony and you can go all around the Province, Mr. Speaker. The trades schools now need over $100 million to upgrade themselves on equipment.

It was bad enough that we allowed students to take these courses knowing that they could come out Ll755 June 17, 1985 Vol XL in the job market and there would be no jobs, but to allow them to take courses and operate on heavy duty equipment that was at least twenty years, to allow carpenters to take courses and not have the wood, the paint and the various other materials required, allow them to take mechanic courses and other courses in trades school and either not have the equipment or equipment that was extremely outdated, that again, Mr.

Speaker, shows the contempt . that this government has for education and the priority it assigns · it. So the trades school now need $100 million just to upgrade equipment. That is not talking about upgrading the facilities, that is not talking about the residence that the new Fisheries and Marine Technology Institute needs here, not talking about other residence that the College of Trades needs, it is not talking about the residences needed at trade schools throughout the Province. That is $100 million only to buy equipment.

We heard after the signing of the Atlantic Accord that of the $300 million - $275 million by the federal government, $25 million by the provincial government - a lot would go into job training. Yet it is not going to job training, Mr. Speaker. I specifically asked the Minister of Career Development (Mr. Power) about this money. Students who are getting Canada Manpower seats are able to draw unemployment insurance while they are going to school.

I asked about those students, some of whom are married, and some of them just coming out of high school, who get $100 a month, so I asked can those students expect any extra money over and above what they are getting now with regard to the $150 million fund that is going to No. 34 Rl755

be provided for job training, and the answer is no, the government does not have any intention of raising it, Mr. Speaker. What the government has done with education, Mr. Speaker, is exactly what the government has done with the Trans-Canada in the past thirteen years. They have allowed the Trans-Canada to deteriorate to such an extent that it is unbelievable, and then they appeal to Ottawa for massive amounts of money to upgrade it. They have done the same thing with education. They· have allowed, Mr. Speaker, the education system to fall ·down around their heads and we find out now, Mr.

Speaker, if you go into the trades schools, in particular, in this Province, you will find out that all it is basically is a shell of a building with outdated equipment and outdated courses. After thirteen years in power, Mr. Speaker, I think this is shameful. I think it again points out how they are like the ostrich, they have their heads in the sand, and also, only they operate, Mr. Speaker, under crisis. They only operated when the fishery became a crisis, they only operated when a crisis was created by Bowater pulling out, and it is the same thing with the fishering and the mining industries.

Now, of course, they have a crisis in the education system but now they have the money from Ottawa and they are basically saying we are going to get into the new stream, get into new courses. But I think this government has to answer to a lot of the students who went through, Mr. Speaker, thinking that they could get jobs as carpenters, mechanics, clerk typists and that. For the Minister of Career Development (Mr. Power) to allow this to go on as a member of the Cabinet for the past number of Ll756 June 17, 1985 Vol XL years, and also allow the Minister of Education (Mr.

Hearn) to have children going into the trades schools and do these courses, knowing fair well that there are no jobs when they come out, I think, Mr. Speaker, is a crime against our younger people. It is bad enough that there i-s over 40 per cent unemployment, it is bad enough that we have the lowest rate of students going to post-secondary education, but when they are led down the garden path that is another thing. MR. TULK: The high school drop-out rate in this Province has increased in the past five years. MR. HISCOCK: As a the member for Fogo (Mr.

Tulk) has pointed out the drop-out rate is another think that is critical and I will deal with that in another part of this speech. During the Career estimates, I ended up asking the Minister of Career Development would he table this fabulous list of the 5,000 jobs that are supposed to be cr~ated under the SEED programme to which the provincial government allocated $2 million.

I think that it is important for the media of this Province to know this as well as the general public, that the $2 million that is to be spent on youth unemployment, which is 40 per cent in this Province, will be spent on students coming out of university, trades school and high school to provide jobs just for the Summer. This $2 million does not target itself towards the chronically unemployment among our youth who are out of school permanently and are looking for permanent jobs permanently. I asked the minister to table the list of these projects and the No. 34 Rl756

minister said he would, and I must say I have to give credit to the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) and his officials that when I asked for statistics to be provided to me from his department, just press the button of the computer and I and the other members of the Committee had them the other day. But now the Minister of Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr. Power), when I asked him for the list of SEED projects, no problem, and that was of course Thursday, Mr. Speaker, and we are still waiting.

And I would say one of the reasons why we are still waiting is tha.t those projects themselves are still not all funded and the list is not all compiled. But the other part that I want to deal with is the philosophy of the two different departments. Under the Department of Education, I am not really sure if you could call the Minister of Education a Minister of Education or a junior minister or what now· with this division. When the parents of this Province are concerned about declining enrollment and closings of schools, and they ask questions, Mr. Speaker, about this, it is a school board problem.

When the school boards 'decide to close schools because of declining enrollment and busing costs, and because the student grants that they are getting from the government are not enough to run the schools so they have to close them, when parents go to the school boards for that reason the school board says, "It is not our problem, it is the Denominational Education Committee.• When they ask what new schools are going to be built, "It is not my responsibility, it is the responsibility of the DEC." And, of course, when it comes to Ll757 June 17, 1985 Vol XL policy, then it is the responsibility of the DEC and the NTA.

So the Minister of Education, basically all he does is he probably signs the cheques, and I am not even sure if he signs the cheques from t~e Department of Education, but basically ends up passing it off to somebody else·. Now we have the new department and I cannot understand how this department is operating. It is a department of post-graduate studies in most cases: It is the university, Grenfell College in Corner Brook, all the vocational schools, the Trades College, as well as the new Fisheries Institute.

And the Minister of Career Development is going around and saying, "Clerk-typing is out of date, carpentry is out of date, mechanics is out of date; my department and myself are going to implement the new programmes that are going to lead our people into permanent jobs for the next generation and hopefully lay the base for the post-technological society." The minister ended up saying, "We are no longer in the industrial society, we are in a technological society now." So he is laying out the programmes.

And when I asked him what are the programmes going to be, "Oh, we will announce them later." The media was very quick in picking that up when he made his speech. The media ended up asking the President of the Fisheries Colleges, "Well, that is policy, we really do not know about it. We have to wait for the minister." When they asked the President of Trade School, it was the same thing. The university at least had the courage and the independence of an educational institution and said to the minister, the new rookie minister No. 34 Rl757

of Career Development, "You can play your politics, you can run for the leadership of the PC Party when the Premier steps down, you can use that as a stepping stone, but you are not going to be getting credit by telling us, professional educators at the university, what courses we need in this Province and what courses we do not need in this Province. We do not need to be given a lecture that there should be more courses offered so the women of our Province can go and take these courses. " As the university pointed out, there are now more female medical students than ever before.

And if there are courses not being taken by the females in university, as the President pointed out, for the most cases those freedoms are up to the students and the females themselves, and maybe it is the responsibility of the Minister of Education to instill in our younger people, our younger female students, that there are other options besides hairdressing, clerk typing, nursing, teaching, etc. But the

part I am trying to get at, Mr. Speaker, is that when policy is made in the Department of Education, the minister has nothing to do with it, nothing to do with it whatsoever. It is the full responsibility of the DEC, of the NTA, of the school boards and the various other officials. But when it comes to responsibility for what courses are going to be offered at the University, what courses are going to be offered at the Trades School or the Fisheries College, that is now the responsibility of the new Minister of Career Development (Mr. Power). And I find, Mr. Speaker, that smacks of political interference.

It also is giving the minister the Ll758 June 17, 1985 Vol XL opportunity to build a political base among the younger people at these institutions for a future leadership run, Mr. Speaker. I am quite pleased to know that the University itself is saying, "We are qui·te capable of running the University. And not only running the University, but we had in the Smallwood years a first-class international university. The bases were laid: We had the Marine Institute- in Logy Bay, we also had the Medical School, the Business School, and the Social Work department.

We ended up even establishing a campus in Harlow University as a co-op venture under the Smallwood years." Now, of course, Mr • . Speaker, the main speech of the President of the University is saying we are losing our top professors and we are not attracting top international professors to our learning institution. Why? Because of the discrepancy between wages that are offered here at Memorial University compared to other universities in Canada.

So if the · Minister of Career Development wants to do anything for policy in education, then I advise him to provide more money for our staff and also for the teaching profession in the vocational schools, in the fishing institution, in the Trades College, in the University and in Sir Wilfred Grenfell College. And also, Mr. Speaker, the Minister of Education (Mr.

Hearn) should take note himself that if this is not forthcoming with the teachers in our Province, the NTA, then we are also going to open ourselves to not having top caliber students coming from the University and going into education because they will end up going into other professions because of the pay differential. Mr. Speaker, it is No. 34 Rl758

one of the greatest challenges facing our education. It is not the declining enrollment, it is not the busing of our students, but, Mr. Speaker, the main challenge is whether we are going to get top-notch international and national Canadian standards maintained at our high schools, maintained at our primary schools, maintained at . our elementary schools, University and vocational schools. That is the challenge that is open to this government. And, Mr. Speaker, it is not taking $130 million and getting into buying equipment.

The other danger, and I will say this directly to the members of the House of Assembly on both sides who have vocational schools in their district, is be aware of what the Minister of Career Development (Mr. Power) is going to be doing to your community and the courses that are going to be offered in those trade schools or vocational schools as they are commonly called. The thing is, Mr.

Speaker, what is going to happen is that the minister and his department are going to dictate what courses are going to be offered in Bonavista, what courses are going to be offered in Lewisporte, what courses are going to be offered in St. Anthony, in Argentia, in Bell Island and in St. John's. They are getting into more specialities, Mr. Speaker.

As a result, if Conception Bay South, Seal Cove, wants to get into welding, the Minister of Career Development will say, 'I am sorry, you cannot get into welding, we got that speciality down in Placentia. ' When you get into aviation as they have in Gander, he will be saying . to the people of Goose Bay, 'No, you cannot get into that because that speciality is in Gander' . And it Ll759 June 17, 1985 Vol XL has some valid, good points, Mr. Speaker. We cannot continue to buy pieces of equipment that cost a couple of million dollars or half a million dollars and put them in each area.

But I also believe very, very strongly that we have to be very, very careful when you get a political influence · deciding what courses are going to be offered.

And I think that the vocational schools of this Province, if they are not already in some kind of union, their presidents themselves should consolidate and form a group basically co-operating with each other, should form a lobby to make sure that their courses are being offered for the best, maximum use of our students in the Province, and also to maintaining pressure on government.Because what I can see happening is that if you have a vocational school in a PC district and a vocational school in a Liberal district, then I can see the mentality of this government operating from the point of view of putting the stronger courses into the vocational schools in those PC districts and not in the other areas.

I . foresee political interference. They have done it before, Mr. Speaker, in other things. They have done it when awarding road contracts, they have done it awarding municipal water and sewerage projects, so why do they not do it, Mr. Speaker, by making sure that certain jobs and certain other facilities are put in the vocational schools within the PC areas of this Province? The first part, as I said, is on the vocational schools.

But now, looking at our elementary schools and the other parts of high schools and primary, in primary school, kindergarden to Grade 111 there are 2050 teachers; in elementary school, Grade lV to Vl, No. 34 Rl759

there are 1650 teachers~ in junior high school, from Grade Vll to lX there are 1830 teachers; and in senior high, from Level l to Level 111 there are 1520 teachers, for a total of 7050 teachers, Mr. Speaker. And when the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) got up and accused teachers of playing politics, and the member for Placentia (Mr. Patterson) called them hooligans, then, as I said, when you paint 7050 teachers with the same brush, it does not give much example to the students to respect authority. Some other statistics, Mr.

Speaker: The number of teachers in this Province under twenty-five, female 395 and males 185; twenty-five to thirty, we have male 573 and female 799.

Teachers in the age bracket from thirty to thirty-four include 1179 males and 1164 females~ teachers from thirty-five to forty, 992 males and 776 females; from forty to forty-four 604, males and 480 females~ from forty-five to forty-nine, 239 males and 274 females; and those teachers from the ages of fifty to fifty-four, 126 male and 200 female teachers; the 'number of teachers from fifty-five to sixty are thirty-three male and 111 female; and those teachers of sixty and over are one male and nine females. The average age, Mr.

Speaker, for the male teachers is thirty-five and the average age for the female is thirty-five. If you look at the grades, Mr. Speaker, the total grades from K to IX is 2301. Some 359 of these grades, Mr. Speaker, or classes are multigrade, or 15.6 of all the classrooms in this Province are multigrade; 229 of these grades, or 63.8 per cent, are two grades per classroom; 87 grades, Mr. Ll760 June 17, 1985 Vol XL Speaker, 24. 2 per cent have three grades per classroom: and there are 43 grades, 12 per cent have four or more grades in this Province.

And if you ·look at the number of one or two room schools in the Province, Mr ~ Speaker, we have approximately 111. I find it irresponsible of the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn), who says to his colleague, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout), yes, the school board in your district that - is closing down should be opened but it is the responsibility of the school boards.

The school board says, okay, we will keep it open if · the Minister of Education gives us the money, and the Minister of Education says, well, I am sorry, I cannot give you the money, it is not my responsibility, we give the money to the DEC and it is up to the DEC to say how it should go. So here is the Minister of Education, as far as I am concerned, being political, trying to save the hide of the Minister of Fisheries in his district, under-cutting the confidence of the school board and the duly elected officials• And you wonder why, Mr.

Speaker, people do not run for councils and people do not run for school boards when you have an irresponsible minister who politically defends his colleague, the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout), and not take the side of the school board and say, look, the reality is we cannot maintain it because we have not got enough money. And instead of the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) being independent, fighting for more money, he is silent on those positions. When the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr.

Doyle) gets up and talks about schools in his district, again the Minister of Education supports him and not the board. Holy Cross and st. BonIs No. 34 Rl760

and the other Catholic schools that are having problems, not necessarily because of declining enrollment, but teachers cutback. A lot of people do not realize this that the Avalon Integrated School Board are going to lose fifteen teachers this year, and the school boards_ are losing teachers because of the declining enrollment. The school boards are faced with a difficult situation. The challenges, Mr.

Speaker, that education is going to face in this Province are going to be challenges that the public, the teachers, government, the general to rise to the total the churches, the and the Opposition and public as a whole have the occasion and put quality of education above everything else. There are going to have to be decisions made . that are not going to be popular by the NTA, by the churches, by the school boards, by the government because of declining enrollment. The government has the opportunity of putting in more money and allowing the teachers to stay by cutting back on the student/teacher ratio, Mr.

Speaker, and allowing the quality of education to be continued. We are seeing now a backward step, because of declining enrollment, hence laying off teachers, closing down schools and busing students, to live with the restraint period. We are finding, Mr. Speaker, we have to double up grades, put three or four grades in one classroom, and we are going backwards, Mr. Speaker, with regards to education in this Province. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! The bon. member's time has elapsed. Ll761 June 17, 1985 Vol XL SOME HON. MEMBERS: By leave! MR. HISCOCK: In concluding, would like to government - MR.

TULK: Mr. Speaker, I challenge the Go on, boy, you have leave! By leave! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Does the bon. member have leave? SOME HON. MEMBERS: Yes. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): By leave. MR. HISCOCK: In concluding, Mr. Speaker, I hope the problems that are arising and presenting themselves to us as a people and as a Province that we will not always play politics with them, that we will not back the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Rideout) because he needs a few votes in this area, or the Minister of Municipal Affairs (Mr.

Doyle) , but will lay the cards on the table and say to the peo:t>le this is the reality and these are the confinements we have to live with. But I will say to the general public as a whole, if they expect this government to look after the education system like they looked after the Trans-Canada Highway & like they looked after the Fisheries - then I would say, Mr. Speaker, they are in for a long waiting period. It is not good enough for parents themselves in this Province to blame it on the school boards, it is not good enough to blame it on the NTA.

Full responsibility, and the Minister of Career Development and No. 34 Rl761 '

Advanced Studies (Mr. Power) is pointing this out now quite clearly, rests not with the university, not with the president of the trades schools or the Fisheries College, it is he who decides the policy, it is he who decides where the money is going to be spent in vocational schools, which ones are going to be upgraded, which ones are going to be downgraded. But when those same questions are asked of the Minister of Education (Mr. Hearn) the answer is, Mr. Speaker, it is the DEC, it is the NTA, it is the school boards.

I say to the general public and to the parents of this Province, do not have the wool pulled over your eyes. Allow the responsibility to lay squarely at the feet of this government, and have the Minister of Education, the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) and the Premier held accountable and upgrading our And hopefully Premier says, will shine and responsible of education system. some day when the 'Some day the sun have-not will be no more, ' maybe we can also say that some day, because we have the highest rate of your unemployment, and because we have the lowest rate of post-secondary education - all this after we have had the vision of Smallwood - Mr.

Speaker, some day we will see university students, trade school students and students as a whole given allowances to go to these post-secondary education institutions in order to build up a viable society and lay a firm economic foundation. So in concluding, Mr. Speaker, I believe that the education system in this Province is in utter chaos, it is lacking direction. And if we allow the post-secondary institutions to give up their responsibility to the Minister of Ll762 June 17, 1985 Vol XL Career Development and Advanced Studies (Mr.

Power) , then I will say that a lot of communities in the next two or three years are going to have some first-class trade schools in this Province and we are going to see some glorified trade schools for high school students left. Communities must get involved in electing officials to the school boards and make education a priority, not, Mr. Speaker, just when a school is closing down, not just when there is trouble with the roof on a school, not when you have to bus the students.

But the ·general public have responsible education in if not, Mr. will not to adopt attitude a more towards this Province because Speaker, our society reach its full potential. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): The hon. the Minister qf Forest Resources and Lands. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I would like to speak for a few moments in this Concurrence Debate. MR. TULK: Do you know what departments we are discussing? MR. SIMMS: Yes, I do.

We are discussing Government Services Committee on the Department of Municipal Affairs, the Department of Public Works and Services, the Department of Labour, the Department of Finance, the Department of Transportation, and the Department of Consumer Affairs and Communications. Speaker, I would that there is No. 34 However, Mr. have to assume some sort of Rl762

agreement and understanding, because the member for Eagle River (Mr. Hiscock), who just sat down, spent a considerable amount of time discussing Education. We on this side did not object. I did consider rising on a point of order, but then I realized that one of the departments we are discussing is Finance. I mean, you can discuss anything, so that is precisely what I want to try to do now, if I may. SOME BON. MEMBERS : Oh, . oh! MR. SPEAKER .(McNicholas): Order, please! MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I want to make just a few general opening comments.

First of all, I have observed throughout the course of this debate, that the Opposition have been lacking in their criticisms of the provincial budget and I guess that is for obvious reasons: There are not many things to criticize about our provincial budget, and I suspect that that is why the members opposite have not been criticizing our provincial budget. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, they have spent most of their time, as has been pointed out on many, many occasions, criticizing the recent federal budget that has been brought down, and rightly so in many ways. MR. TULK: Would the hon. minister permit? MR.

SIMMS: Yes. The hon. the member for Fogo wants to tell me something. MR. TULK: Ll763 June 17, 1985 Vol XL Your argument very good, but if you are going to become the leadership candidate, you will have to get a little bit more conviction in your voice. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, there is only one ~arty in this Legislature that has a leadership problem, believe me, and it is not the party sitting to your left, Mr. Speaker, it is the party that presently sits as the official Opposition, and I suspect will sit as the official Opposition for many, many years to come. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR.

SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! I want to open my comments, Mr. Speaker, by making some observations about the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick), who, unfortunately, is not here. The member for Menihek has criticized our budget. MR. HISCOCK: Has he? MR. SIMMS: Yes, he has, perhaps more so than the members opposite, the official Opposition party. As members in the House will recall, on numerous occasions the member for Menihek has held up the country of Sweden as being a perfect example of how this government should operate and should run. MR. BAIRD: And Manitoba. MR.

SIMMS: Yes, Manitoba is jurisdiction that he No. 34 the other likes to Rl763

refer to. Mr • Speaker, recently in Sweden, there have been some things take place that, a country that is run by a Social Democratic Government - AN HON. MEMBER: They have a good forestry programme. MR. SIMMS: Yes, they do have a good forestry programme. But financially and economically, they have felt the pinch the same as many other jurisdictions have felt. The country of Sweden, Mr. Speaker, has suffered a public service strike most recently. SOME BON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! MR.

SIMMS: They have recently doubled their sales tax on automobiles, they have imposed tighter restrictions on the use of credit cards , and they have instructed the central bank of that country to boost the interest rate by 2 percentage points. In addition to that, they have curbed bank lending, Mr. Speaker, in order to stem the outflow of currency. So, Mr. Speaker, the member for Menihek (Mr. Fenwick), who often holds up the country of Sweden as a perfect example, has not been saying too much about it recently, for various reasons. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the member for Menihek, I understand, did his thesis on comparative governments and considers himself to be a bit of an expert on Swedish governments. Ll764 June 17, 1985 Vol XL DR. COLLINS: The member for where? MR. SIMMS: The member Fenwick). DR. COLLINS: Did he? MR. SIMMS: for Menihek (Mr. Oh, yes, he says he did anyway. I suspect he will have some response to make like, 'Oh, that is because the Social Democratic Government in sweden took over the government after six years of Conservative rule,' or something silly like that. I am sure that is what he will come back with.

But I thought I would throw it out for his edification, Mr. Speaker. Oh, I need that paper, I tell my colleague, the Minister of the Environment (Mr. Butt) , because I intend to quote from the paper shortly in my few moments that I have. The other thing that is rather interesting, although it relates to resources, Mr. Speaker, and I am sure members opposite will not mind · my just mentioning this little fact, which I found to be rather interesting. MR. TULK: Is it Finance? MR. SIMMS: Yes, it is under Finance! - an

article in the newspaper related to a $40 million oil exploration programme that is planned for Hudson Bay. They say that the programme that is planned could heat up a long-standing dispute over the ownership of whatever riches might lie beneath those seas. Because the Province of Manitoba, led by the N.D.P., as No. 34 Rl764

you know, has claimed jurisdiction over a large portion of Hudson Bay. But the story goes on a little further down the line, which I think is a bit of a credit to Newfoundlanders, especially those who have got themselves involved in the offshore. A spokesman for CanTerra, which is the company involved, said, npreliminary work has already begun,n etc. He said ncanTerra will spend about $3.5 million in Churchill, but most of the skilled labour will be brought in from Calgary and St. John's, Newfoundland. n SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: Now, Mr.

Speaker, I think that that is a great credit to those Newfoundlanders - MR. TULK: Do you know what they are ~oing? MR. SIMMS: I am prepared to listen to the hon. member. MR. TULK: Well, I will tell you what they are doing. MR. SIMMS: Okay. MR. TULK: They are hiring Nova Scotians out here. You should check with the Minister of Labour (Mr. Blanchard). He sits there next to you. MR. SIMMS: I will check that immediately, as soon as he returns. MR. TULK: Ll765 June 17, 1985 Vol XL You should. correct. MR.

SIMMS: It is absolutely We will get the actual quote from Hansard and then I will give it to the Minister of Labour and ask him to give us a few comments on that. MR. TULK: That is absolutely correct. Check and see if the Nova Scotians are not being filtered in here. MR. SIMMS: Perhaps later on in the debate, we will be able to address that particular point. Yet I still think that this is a credit to the Newfoundlanders who themselves have managed to make themselves - AN HON. MEMBER: They have not found any work yet. MR.

SIMMS: No, but they have managed to make themselves credible and I think that is a credit to them. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): Order, please! Order, please! MR. SIMMS: And because they are skilled in their profession they are now going to be sought after by other jurisdictions and other provinces. AN HON. MEMBER: They should be in their own land. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, opposite they fact that the workers have No. 34 I say to members may not like this Newfoundland skilled done so well for Rl765

themselves but they will have to like it. They have done a lot for themselves, Mr. Speaker, and I believe they deserve a lot of credit for doing what they have done. Mr. Speaker, unlike members opposite, I_ am proud of those Newfoundlanders who developed their skills in the way that they have. Members opposite are obviously supportative of the work that the Newfoundlanders here have done in order to improve their skills, so much so that they are now being called on in other jurisdictions to do the jobs because those jurisdictions do not have the skilled labour.

I think there is a credit due to people who have done that. members opposite should belittle that fact. those And not Now, Mr. Speaker, there are a couple of points that were raised, not necessarily in this debate but during Question Period and other occasions. Today, for example, the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) , my friend and seat mate from Windsor - Buchans raised the issue of amalgamation. And we are discussing municipal affairs so I guess I can make a brief comment on amalgamation. MR. TULK: He is your seat mate? MR. SIMMS: That is my seat mate, yes. MR. TULK: Are you coming over? MR.

SIMMS: No, I do not mean in that sense. I just mean in a geographical sense he is my seat mate. That is as close as I want him. But, Mr. Speaker, he raised today the Ll766 June 17, 1985 Vol XL question of amalgamation between the towns of Windsor and Grand Falls. I might say to him - he probably knows it - but he left out that at one time or another the town of Bishop Falls was also considered to be a part of that amalgamation effort, if indeed it did - MR. CALLAN: It does not matter anyway. Grand Falls does not want to amalgamate because it sees no financial gain. MR.

SIMMS: Well the hen. member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) may know more than I know and what he says may very well be accurate, in the opinion of some people, but I do not necessarily agree that that is accurate or true. But there may very well be people in some quarters that would agree with him. I could not argue that. But I do say this about the question of amalgamation that the member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr. Flight) raised here today, it is a long standing one because, of course, back in the early 1970 • s, as the minister indica~ed today, the Patterson Report did a study on the question of amalgamation. Mr.

Speaker, I have been the member there now for six years and have run in three elections and have talked to just about every constituent I represent I suppose - MR. CALLAN: one more and you will catch me. MR. SIMMS: Yes. I would be proud to equal the record of the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) who is a distinguished member of the Opposition and always has been and always will be. But anyway, Mr. Speaker, that question is not a No. 34 Rl766

question that has been raised with me by constituents as I have travelled around door to door in at least ·three elections. It is not an issue that has been raised by my constituents. Now I am not like the member for Windsor Buchans (Mr. Flight). The member for Windsor - Buchans likes to drum up issues. He likes to stir up issues. Now I have evidence of that right here, Mr. Speaker. In the Grand Falls Advertiser just recently members will recall the other day ·how . the member for Windsor Buchans, who is accused of being an alarmist by my colleague, the Minister of the Environment (Mr.

Butt) with respect to a question concerning the Millertown dam. The paper, if you do not mind me quoting from the newspaper, I am sure the member for Windsor Buchans will be delighted. The paper says, "Flight Raises Matter of Millertown Dam Integrity in the House". Now it is a rna jor, major headline, fantastic headline, and it goes on to sort of describe what happened in the Legislature that particular day, although it is hearsay for the Grand Falls Advertiser because they were not here to cover that particular story. Further down there is a story that says, "Butt Satisfied Darn Structurally Sound". And, Mr.

Speaker, further to that is another story, "Darn Was Not in Jeopardy", and this is a quote from the director of the Emergency Measures Organization, Mr. John Greer. AN HON. MEMBER: Who? MR. SIMMS: Oh, yes. He agreed with the Minister of Environment (Mr. Butt) Ll767 June 17, 1985 Vol XL that it was not in jeopardy, there was no trouble facing that particular ~am. But the member for Windsor - Buchans in his usual nature and in his usual course managed to drum up an issue and get coverage. Mr.

Speaker, further to that the member for Windsor-Buchans wants me to refer to the editorial in the Grand Falls Advertiser which I must say is a very complimentary editorial to the member for Windsor - Buchans. Indeed, he deserves the odd complimentary editorial in any event, as long as they are not too frequent, which I am sure they will not be. MR. TULK: It is frequent than ones for the minister. MR. SIMMS: Oh, that is not quite accurate. If the hon. member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) wants to see some clippings I wou~d be happy to provide them. As a matter of fact, Mr.

Speaker, in that same paper on the next page is a big picture of me getting a certificate of merit from the Cancer Society which I am very proud of. And further in that Speaker, is a big for me supporting Producers Association. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: paper, Mr. advertisement the Lumber But if the hen. member wants to get in the coverage in the local paper - even · the member for Windsor - Buchans would admit that I get a reasonable amount of coverage from the Grand Falls Advertiser, even the member for Windsor - Buchans would admit it. No. 34 Rl767

Anyway, Mr. Speaker MR. MARSHALL : Those pictures, those pictures? MR. SIMMS: who circulated I do not know who circulated the photographs. I really could ~ot tell you. Probably somebody in my office. nAnyway Windsor - Buchans MBA, Graham Flight, said this week that he does not apologize for asking direct questions in the House of Assembly with respect to concerns of .the people of his district. We say, why should he. That is what he was elected to do, represent the people who put him in officen. Now I think that is complementary. The member for Windsor - Buchans (Mr.

Flight) wanted me to read this that is the only reason. The Government House Leader (Mr. Marshall) is looking at me with chagrin, but I am only doing it as a favo1,1r to my geographical seat mate. The member for Windsor Buchans was elected to represent the people, he was elected to ask questions that the people have asked him to ask.

Now I am assuming that he was asked to ask this question by a number of people, however, there is a suspicion that the member for Windsor - Buchans frequently tries to drum an issue and that brings me back to my original point with respect to amalgamation that we were talking about earlier. Unlike the member for Windsor - Buchans I . do not intend to drum amalgamation as being an issue. Well, the member for Menihek (Mr.

Fenwick) is gone again or I would refer back to Sweden - there he is I already discussed this with Ll768 June 17, 1985 Vol XL the member for Menihek and he is going to attack my comments some other time. Anyway, Mr. Speaker, with respect to amalgamation, as I said it is not an issue that has been raised with me by my constituents, I do not intend to drum up the issue, however, .

I will say this, that I have had many more discussions with the Minister of Municipal Affairs, both this one and his predecessor about the issue of amalgamation, many, many more than the member for Windsor - Buchans and I can tell him that the issue is one that is being looked at internally, frequently questioned, but I do not intend to act on it unless the people from my district want to act on it. They have not indicated to me in any way, shape or form that they want me to pursue that particular issue. If they do, I would be happy to support them and represent them whatever way I can, in their best interests.

I would say to the member for Windsor - Buchans as well, if it is recommended that it be done, then I will do everything in my power, which is not very much, but I will do everything in my power to bring that kind of an issue to fruition. I do agree with the member for Windsor Buchans that there certainly could be some benefits associated with it, duplication of services and matters of that nature. AN HON. MEMBER: Do you agree with him on that? MR. SIMMS: Only on some issues. In that particular matter, I agree to a certain extent and I am sure there are some cons associated with amalgamation as well.

The hen. member shakes his head, but I am sure there are. There are always No. 34 Rl768

pros and cons for every issue. The member opposite maybe doe