LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, 4 May, 1982 Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEA KER, Hon. D. James Walding (St. Vital): Presenti ng Petitions ... Read in g and Rec eiving Petitions ... PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. JERRY T. STORIE (Flin Flon): Mr. Speaker, the Commit tee of Supply has adopted certain resolu­ tions, directs me to report the same and asks leave to sit agai n. I move. seconded by the Honourable Mem ber for Ri ver East, that the Report of the Commit tee be received.

MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Mem ber for Ri ver East. MR. PHIL EYLER (River East): Mr. Speaker, I beg leave to present the Second Re port of the Standing Commi ttee on Law Amen dments. MR. CLERK, Jack Reeves: Your Standing Commit tee on Law Amend ments beg leave to present the follow­ ing as their Second Report: Your Comm ittee met on Tuesday, May 4th, 19 82, and heard representations with respect to the Bills before the Comm ittee as follows: Bill No. 6

An Act to Abolish Certain Actions Concern­ ing Status of Indi vid uals. Loi abolissant cer­ taines actions relatives aux droits de l'individu, David James. Q.C .. Private Citizen. Bill No. 10 The Reci procal Enforcement of Mai ntenance Orders Act.

Loi sur la reciprocite d'execution des ordonnanc es alimentaires. Grant Mi tchel l, Manitoba Association for Righ ts and Liberties. Bill No. 16

An Act to amend The Fatality Inquir ies Act, Grant Mi tchell, Manitoba Association for Righ ts and Liberties. Your Comm ittee has conside red: Bill No. 10 The Reciprocal Enforcement of Mai ntenance Orders Act.

Loi sur la reciprocite d' execution des ordonnanc es ali menta ires. Bill No. 12

An Act to amend The Family Main - tenance Act. Bill No. 17 The Proceeds of Con tracts Disbursement Act, 19 81. And has agreed to report the same withou t amend ment. Your Comm ittee has also considered: Bill No. 4

An Act to amend The Garage Keepers Act. Bill No. 6

An Act to Abolish Certain Act ions Concern­ ing Status of In divid uals. Loi abolissant cer­ taines actions relatives aux droits de l'indi­ vidu. Bill No. 16

An Act to amend The Fatality Inqu iries Act. And has ag reed to report the same with certain amen dments. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Ri ver East. MR. EYLER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Mem ber for The Pas, that the Report of the Com mittee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion ... In troduction of Bills ... INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Before we reach Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable mem bers to the gal lery where we have 25 students of Grade 6 standing of the Collicutt School under the direction of Mr. Dubois.

This school is located in the constituency of the Honourable Mem ber for Ki ldonan. There are 25 students of Grade 9 standing from the John Pritchard School under the direction of Mi ss Visch. This school is in the constituency of the Hon­ ourable Member for River East. 2141 On behalf of all of the mem bers, I welcome you here this afternoon. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honour able Leader of the Opposition. HON. STERLING L VON (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Min ister of Financ e. It now being the 4th of May, could he advise the House when he expects to bring down his Budget? MR.

SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Minis ter of Fi nance. HON. VIC SCHRO EDER {Rossmere): Yes, Mr.

Tuesday, 4 May, 1982 Speaker. I am hoping to do so shortly after we fin ish the Finan ce Es tima tes which are beginning today. I would hope it will be somew here between the 11 th and 14 th of May, assu ming that the Estimates are completed. MR. SPEA KE R: The Honourable Memb er for Emerson. MR. ALBERT DR I EDGER (Em erson): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, to the Minis ter of Natural Resou rces. Could the Min ister confirm that it is now the policy of his department not to hire students for work in parks unless they want to make it their career? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Natural Resources. HON.

AL MACKLING (St. James): No, Mr. Speaker, that is not the policy. I am giv en to understand from the department that we have a very large number of students engaged for sum mer work. It has long been the policy of government to provide opportunity for students, particu larly in the parks, to enjoy summer work.

I, myself, have been concerned looking at applications, or I shouldn 't say applications, recom­ mendations for em ployment to ensure that those job positions that in volve tem porary employment that priority be giv en to students to fill those positions, but there has been a longstanding practice in the depart­ ment where there are seasonal people employed and, notwithst anding my concerns, it appears that it is in the interests of government to employ seasonal employees of the type that I have described.

A lot of those jobs fit very well into the patterns of employ­ ment of the people that have been in volved in those occupations for many, many years. So my concern that more students be employed than what we are doing has been manif est on a number of occasions with my department, Mr. Speaker. MR. DRIEDGER: To the same Min ister, Mr. Speaker, can the Mini ster then ind icate why there is inconsis­ tency in his hiring policy in the St. Malo Park where students have been in formed that they do not qualify for the job because they do not want to make it their career? MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, if there is a specific case that the honourable mem ber is referring to, I would be of course happy to have those details so that I can address the problem because certainly that is not the policy. MR. DRIEDGER: To the same Min ister then, I would lik e to ind icate to him that he should maybe check what the policy is in the St. Malo area in terms of hiring practices because certain in divid uals have been informed and I will give that in formation to the indi­ vidual as well, but I am con cerned that it probably is a province-wide policy that is in place. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Natural Resources. MR. MACKLING: No, Mr. Speaker. if there is any pol- icy in place it is not of this Min ister's making and of this government's making. I have ind icated my con­ cerns to the department. If there is a specific problem in the area referred to by the honourable mem ber, I want those specifics so that I can deal with it because that is not the policy. · MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for St. No rbert. MR. G.W.J. (Gerry) Mercier (St. Norbert): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Mini ster of Labour.

I kno w what he said in the Labour Estimates the end of last week and what he said yesterday, Mr.

Speaker, but in view of the open ing of the Canada Employment Centre for Students and the in dication that the only jobs that are avai lable are part-time term jobs, like unloading box cars; stocking shelves; taki ng in ven­ tory; restaurant, hotel and tourism related jobs; or cutting grass and hedges; painting fences and houses and shinglin g roofs, is the Minis ter of Labour pre­ pared to, in view of this development, review imme­ diately the criteria he has establis hed for the Youth Employment Program that he has brought forward in order to ensure that jobs will be available for young people under his program?

MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Labour. MR. SCHROEDER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I can assure the honourable member that, in fact, there will be jobs available under the program that we init iated. We've had more than 1, 000 applications now sent out to prospective employers. We have received some 35 applic ations back and, in fact, of them, 17 had been approved as of early this morning, so we expect that there will be relatively little difficulty in using up the fund that has been made available.

In terms of employment programs for youth, as I have ind icated previously, we are keeping an eye on it and if necessary there may be other annou ncements. MR. MER CIER: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary ques­ tion to the Min ister of Labour. In view of the release today of information with respect to the conti nuin g increase in bankru ptcies in Man itoba, Mr. Speaker, which indic ate they had doubled in the first three months of this year com pared to last and that rate of increase is mai ntained for the month of April, Mr. Speaker.

In view of that development which has to mean, I suggest to the Min ister, a tigh tening economy and less jobs available for young people. In view of the fact that his program will only allow for 1, 500 jobs, will he now consider reviewing of those criteria and expan din g the criteria simi lar to the program under our government where 5,000 jobs were available for young people? 2142 MR. SCHR OEDE R: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. As I had told the member yesterday, the Provincial Auditor to some extent disagreed with the mem ber.

He said in his report that there was no evidence that any jobs had been created; in fact, the funds paid out were merely subsid ies to employers as opposed to funds paid for the creation of employment. That is not the case with this program; we kn ow that this program

Tuesday, 4 May, 1982 will supply jobs. It will supply more jobs than that program ever was proven to have supplied. We can take a look and we will be, and I've ind icated to the members previously, we will be taking a look at how this program works and if necessary we will be mak­ ing adjustments. The member refers to bankru ptcies in Mani toba. I point out that in 19 80 and 19 81 bankruptcies in this province increased by 13 4.1 percent over the preced­ ing two years, and that was the highest rate of increase in the country.

So the fact that there are bankru ptcies occu rring in Manitoba now is regretta­ ble just as it was then, but it is not a new phenomenon in the Province of Man itoba. MR. MERCIER: Well, Mr. Speaker, those bankru ptcy statistics have doubled in the month of April and it would appear that we will have to await the job statis­ tics that become availa ble and hopefully young peo­ ple will be looked after. I have a supplementary question, Mr. Speaker, for the Attorney-General. Will the Honourable Attorney­ General, Mr.

Speaker, be providin g any assistance either morally or financially to the civilian street patrol, the Blue Nigh ts? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Attorney-General. HON. ROLAND PENNER (Fort Rouge): No. MR. SPEA KER: The Honour able Mem ber for Lakeside. MR. HARRY ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Min ister answering to this Cham ber for the Manit oba Telephone System.

I ask the Hon­ ourable Min ister whether or not the annou nced expenditures for the expansion of the Telidon Pro­ gram that were recently annou nced, join tly funded by both Ottawa and the province upwards to the tune of, I believe, $1 milli on apiece, whether the Manitoba Tel­ ephone System has provided the Min ister with any revenue projections accru ing to Man itoba Telephone System as a result of the expan sion of this program? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Min ister of Com­ muni ty Services. HON. LEONARD S. EVANS (B randon East): Mr.

Speaker. clarification -the mon ies paid out from the Province of Man itoba are through the Man itoba Tele­ phone System. not a grant from the gove rnment to MTS. In answer to your specific question, the answer is no, we haven't been provided with a revenue projection. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, it doesn't really matter where the money is going, but there is upwards to $1 million being spent by Manitobans through their util­ ity.

Before the expan sion of this program, surely the Minis ter must have asked for and MTS must have supplied, who is the program being targeted to: who will be the expanded users of the new exotic tele­ phone system? Perhaps the Min ister could also answer, has the program that has been carried on in an experimental basis to various sectors of the farm com munity, has that yielded any revenues to MTS to date? I believe that program has been in position for the better part of the year. MR.

EVANS: Well, some of the questions that the honourable members puts are rather detailed ques­ tions which perhaps better be put to the MTS Board when they appear before the Comm ittee of Public Util ities. Of course. that has since gone by and I would be very pleased to obt ain some information for the honourable member along these lines but he, I believe, was the Min ister responsi ble when MTS was involved in some of these ventures and has a fair idea as to what was being attempted. It is new tec hnology; it has some rather promising spi n-off for ind ustry in Ma nitoba.

It has some promis ­ ing benefit to agriculture in Man itoba by means of providing more information through the Grassroots Project and so on. I imagine the experts at MTS would tell us that some of these types of investments do take a long tim e and that one has to be patient and can not easily measure profit return with in one year or two years, but that we have to look a far distance down the road and hope that this new tec hnologi cal in novation will in deed be of net benefit to the consu mers and citizens of Man itoba. MR.

ENNS: I'm qu ite aware of some of the am bitions, if I can put it that way, of the various mem bers at MTS and the expansion of new and exotic services, but I direct this question to the First Min ister, Mr. Speaker. I wonder, if at a tim e when Man itobans are con­ cerned about rising costs in virtually every direction that they look, the suggestion that perhaps there are other utilities.

Hydro will become unfrozen and increased costs are rising out of there and knowing that the First Mini ster has not been reluctant to com­ ment on practices that he disag reed with by various Crown corporations from time to tim e, whether he will not consider asking the Man itoba Telephone System to withdraw its application currently before the Public Uti lities Board for a general rate increase when it's obvious that Man itoba Telephone System has a mil­ lion dollars here to expand a program that is, to my understandin g, targeted at only very few large corpo­ rations, the likes of perhaps some large warehousing firms or Richar dson Securities.

What particular help does this do to the average telephone user in Man it­ oba? As we've heard from the Mini ster responsible for Telephones, no revenue is coming in from these exotic services as yet to the rate base and I wonder what justification Man itoba Telephone System has to at this time ask for a general rate increase. I would ask the Honourable First Min ister whether or not he would n't in this instance use his good office to inter­ cede on behalf of the telephone users in Man itoba? 2143 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Min ister. HON. HOWARD R. PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr.

Speaker, I certainly share the concerns I'm certain that all Man­ itobans feel pertaining to rising costs, regardless of whether those are costs from government agencies or Crown corporations or, indeed, from the private sec-

Tuesday, 4 May, 1982 tor and it's very much a concern of each and every one. In the case which we are dealing with, it is a matter that's before the Public Util ities Board. I think we have to see, in deed, if there is rate adjustment. If so, to what extent? We have to keep in mind, too, the arm's length relationship that traditionally has existed between the Public Uti lities Board and the government in review­ ing any decision that the Public Utilit ies Board might make in the given instance. MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, one final supplementary to the First Min ister.

I direct it to him perhaps that he could direct it to his Min ister of Consu mer Affairs, Mr. Speaker, and the question simp ly is this. Will he spe­ cifically ask the Department of Consume r Affairs to monitor most carefully the current application before the Public Util ities Board for a general rate increase? I say this with all deference to MTS for whom I have a great deal of respect, but we are currently dismantling a $5 milli on experimental program in the constituency of myself and the Honourable Leader of the Opposi­ tion called ID A-Head ing ley that cost the telephone users some $5 mil lion.

We are seeing expansion by another million dollars of the Telidon Program. To date, the utility has received no return and there has to be some concern about the amount of dollars that a Crown utility is allowed to spend in this way, particu­ larly at a time that they're ask ing for general rate increase. You and I, the average telephone user, are being asked to fund these experiments. MR. SP EAKER: Order please. I'm sure the honour­ able mem ber would not like to change the question period into a time for making speeches. The Honourable First Min ister. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, in reference, and I am sure the honourable member recognizes this , but it might have been indeed misi nterpreted on the basis of his question. I gather it was a program that was started and was planned to end indeed by the pre­ vious admin istration, so it was not deci sion-mak ing on the part of this admin istration to dism antle the program in question. Mr.

Speaker, I would trust, and the Min ister is not here, but I would say this, that I would look to the Min ister and to the Department of Consu mer Affairs indeed to keep a watc hful eye in regard to all price increases, regardless of the source of those price incr eases within the Man itoba econ­ omy, and to do what is humanly possible to contend with those price increases because of the very sever­ ity in im pact that those price increases have upon average Man itobans. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Turtle Mountai n. MR. A. BRIAN RANSOM (Turtle Mountain): Mr.

Speaker, my question is for the Min ister of Natural Resou rces. During the approxi mately last two years of the previous government's admin istration, negotia­ tions had been carried on with various Native groups in the provi nce to try and arrive at an agreement with the province as to recommendations that could be made to change The Fis heries Act to recogn ize the Treaty rights that Native people have. I wonder if the Mi nister could advise the House what success his government has had in concluding those negotiations. MR. SPEA KER: The Honourable Minis ter of Natural Resources. MR. MACKLING: Mr.

Speaker, I have not been in volved in any formal negotiations because of course the Fish eries Reg ulation involves the Federal Govern­ ment. However, I have had an opportun ity and have met with on a number of occa sions, as recently as late last week, with a broad representation of Native organiza tions and have undertaken to review with my colleagues in the comm ittee of Cabi net that we have establis hed for that purpose, the Native Affairs Com­ mittee of Cabi net, the question of their Treaty rights in respect to fishing privileges.

They are also very con­ cerned , of course, about their hunting privi leges and in the last several decades there have been cases determined in courts, including the Supreme Court, which in their opini on negative their historic Treaty rights. They are very concerned about those cases and very concerned about the

interpretation of their rights. Now, I have undertaken to discuss those questions with my colleagues and certainly will be discussing them with the Federal Government when that oppor­ tun ity arises and there will be a meeting in the Mari­ times later on this month as a prelimi nary to discus­ sion on Native rights. I know that my colleague, the Min ister for the Environ ment, is going to be at that meeting and he is part of the commit tee of Cabine t, the Native Affair s Comm ittee of Cabi net, and we will have a thorough di alogu e of those questions before he goes to that meeting. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Speaker, as a supplementary then, are any discussions going on with Indian people at the moment for the purpose of arriving at a recom­ mendation that can be made to the Federal Govern­ ment to chang e The Fisheries Act? MR. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I am not in a position to indic ate the discussions that my colleague, the Min ister for the Environ ment, may have been pursu­ ing with Native organizations.

I have reported on the extent of my discussions with those groups and there may have been, and there probably are, further dis­ cussions with departmental offi cials with Na tiv e groups, but there has been no formal discussion on my part with the organizations other than as I' ve ind icated. 2144 MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, a question to the Mini s­ ter of Agriculture. The cattle producers of this prov­ in ce have been in substantial difficulties now for some time and the New Democratic Party in Opposition promised im media te aid to the cattle producers. Mr.

Speaker, since the government has recogn ized that there is a problem and has budgeted an amount of funds, I believe some $1 4.5 million, to be paid out to cattle producers, will the Min ister of Agric ulture now agree to simp ly detach any strings from that $14 .5 million and pay it out to the cattle producers who have been promised this aid and who are badly needing

Tuesday, 4 May, 1982 the aid? MR. SPEA KER: The Honour abl e Min is ter of Agriculture. HON. BILL URUSKI (Interlake): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the Mem ber for Turtle Mountain, the mem ber indic ated that there was a comm itment that we would im media tely bring in aid. Mr. Speaker, we said that we would sit down im mediately with produc­ ers and work out a program. We have made the annou ncement with respect to a program and also that we have set up regional advisory groups who are now holding meetings with producers.

I am to meet with those advisory groups in the very near future to see what recommendations and what suggestions they have received from producers. At that point in time , Mr. Speaker, we will see as to what kind of time frame they see the development of the plan taking and whether or not there should be any changes made. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Speaker, the cattle producers of this province were promised imm ediate attention last fall during the election.

The First Min ister said he would not allow it to drag on for weeks and months and ind eed when this program was annou nced , Sir, it was said that money would be paid out this spring. Consu ltations have been going on, Sir, and the mes­ sage that is coming back is very clear that the vast majority of Man itoba cattle producers do not want the constraints placed upon them that the Min ister's plan is going to require.

Si nce the government has recog­ nized the necessity of assistance and has budgeted $1 4.5 mil lion, the farmers are in desperate need of it, Sir, will the govern ment simp ly cut the strings to that $1 4.5 mi llion, pay it out and then consult with the beef producers about what type of long-term stabi lization plan they should put in place? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the annou ncement for the program was made; the principl es were set. The details of that program are now bei ng discussed and worked upon by the advisory comm ittee that are in the province, Mr. Speaker.

When those advisory comm ittees bring back their recom mendations to myself and to the government, we will see what kind of time frame and what we intend to do. -( lnterjection)- Mr. Speaker. the Mem ber for Turtle Mountain wishes to make the point very forcibly that there was imme­ dia te financial aid. Mr. Speaker. the Honourable Mem ber for Lakeside should kn ow that the state­ ments that were made by myself is that we would sit down with producers and develop a program. Mr. Speaker, the parame ters of the program were annou nced and they have been put forward for pro­ ducers to work on to develop the program.

That is what is being undertaken now and that's what was stated last week by the Premier of this provinc e and I am repeating that statement, Mr. Speaker. MR. RANSOM: A supplemen tary, Mr. Speaker. The program which the Min ister has developed and given to his advisory com mittees contains three princi ples, I believe, upon which the advisory com mittees have no right to make recommenda tions. One of those is that the $14 .5 milli on is tied, for examp le, to central desk marketi ng. It is not a question of the deta ils which the advisory comm ittees will come back with, Mr. Speaker.

My question is, will the Min ister change that fun­ damen tal principle upon which he is trying to build this program which is being rejected by the farmers. Will he simply abandon that principle and go with the kind of program that the farmers would recommend? MR. SP EAKER: The Honour able Min is ter of Agricu lture. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, in terms of major changes in policy, the policy statements were annou nced, the details of the program are there. Is there is to be a change in future policy in terms of discussions that will be made, but at this point in time, I should tell the honourable member.

I met briefly, just before the sitting of the House, with a group of producers from the southeast corner of the provi nce who, while they made specific and are prepared to make specific suggestions with respect to the details of the plan and wanted us to exa mine. they said they wanted to look at the B.C. proposals. They did make one point to the Honourable Mem ber for Turtle Mou ntain that they were very much in favour of examin ing and agreeing upon the single desk selling concept which apparently the Honour­ able Memb er for Turtle Mou ntain indic ates that so many people are against. Mr.

Speaker, the single desk selling concept is one way of assuring that the pay outs are made on a one-time basis at the time the ani mals are marketed and that will be the process that will be cond ucted. I should tell the honourable memb er that there are suggestions and proposals being made of the possi­ bility of Pool becomin g in volved in the marketing of cattle even further than they are now. That sugges­ tion, Mr.

Speaker, is certainly being conside red and I have encouraged the members of the Man itoba Pool Elevators in the development of their plant in Brandon that we will need that facility the re, as well as the possibili ties of using their ideas and their support in terms of future marketing in the Winnip eg area. MR. SPEA KER: The Honour able Me mber for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, I would lik e to direct a question to the Min ister respon­ sible for MTS in view of the attack on the Telidon Agreement annou nced today by the Mem ber for Lakeside.

Is Telidon wit hin the reach of farmers, businessmen or indi viduals; what are the rental rates per month, ect.? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Min ister of Com­ muni ty Services. MR. EVANS: Yes, well there is a

schedule of rental rates that people do pay for, to farmers that wish to use it through Grassroots, which is a private company associated. with the Telidon experiment or Telidon developments. The information we have is that charges range from $47.50 per month if you rent it on a yearly basis, if you 2145

Tuesday, 4 May, 1982 take out a lease for a year. If it's a six-month basis, I think it may be $50; if it's a smalle r period of time such as a two-month contract, it may be $75, but these are details that we can get. But the point I would lik e to make is there is a rental fee that is set by MTS, hope­ fully reasonable, with in reach of those who can use it or who choose to use it, farmers. business people and the like. MR. DOER N: Mr.

Speaker, I would also like to ask the Minister whether there will be any new jobs or indu s­ trial spin-offs flowing from the new agreement that was annou nced today between MTS and the Federal Government. MR. EVANS: Well, it is difficult for me to quantify an in crease in jobs from this particular agreement, but the Federal Government has a program which the MTS participated in on a 50-50 basis as was annou nced yesterday for a total in vestment of $1.8 million. Surely, it is going to make Telidon more sign ificant and more mean in gful.

If we are going to go forward in terms of in formational techno logy and if we are going to go forward in in dustrialization of this province and, ind eed, helping the farm commun ity to improve its cost efficiency living in this very competitive world that we are living, that it's incumb ent upon a utility such as MTS to march forward with the new techno l­ ogy. So I think that MTS is to be credited for being inno vated and prepared to sort of blaze the trail, as you might say, in information technology. MR. SP EAKER: The Honour able Me mber for Lakeside. MR. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, a further question to the same Min ister, to the Min ister responsi ble for MTS. Can he ind icate how many private farmers or busi­ ness firms are currently subscribers to the Telidon system? MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, I would have to get that information. I don't have an up-to-date estimate of that. MR. ENNS: Perhaps he could ask the Vice -Chai rman of MTS who has been asking the questions of the Min ister that question.

My final question is: can the Min ister confirm that no Manitobans are involved in the manu facturing of any of the software or hardware involved in the Telidon System, that in fact, any job creation that may be created as a result of this million dollar expenditure part of MTS will be done down east? MR. EVANS: Well, Mr. Speaker, the point I'm making is that there are net benefits to the provincial econ­ omy but in an indir ect way; they are in an indir ect way. That question was well answered by the Fi rst Min ister.

The Public Util ities Board of Man itoba will be examin­ ing the proposals of MTS and I would submit, Mr. Speaker, that this particular expansion as annou nced yesterday has little, if any, bearing on any proposed rate in crease by MTS. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. 2146 MR. DRIEDGE R: Mr. Speaker, to the Mini ster of Agriculture. Can the Min ister advise this House of any recent discussions he has had with his counterpart, the Federal Min ister of Agricultur e, regard ing a National Beef Stabiliz ation Program? MR. SP EAKER: The Honour able Min ister of Agriculture. MR. URUSKI: Yes, Mr.

Speaker. In fact, I' ve telexed the Min ister of Agriculture in Ottawa, as a matter of fact this mornin g, asking them for an additional early meeting to deal with certain statements that have appeared in the paper dealing with reportedly national stabiliz ation plans and monies involved. We have asked for an early meeting of all Min isters to find out what his position is and what are the Federal inten­ tions on that. MR. DRIEDG ER: To the same Minis ter, Mr. Speaker. Does he have any knowledge or information as to what kind of a program the Federal Min ister is proposing.? MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, I've heard the same speeches as the Honourable Member for Emerson emanating from the Minis ter of Agricul ture and I would think that from my kn owledge at this point in time, his guess might be close to what min e might be, but there are no details that we have in terms of what the proposals might be. MR. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Min ister.

In view of the fact that the Federal Min ister ind ica ted that he probably would have a program annou nce­ ment by the end of December, 19 82, is this Min ister then prepared to take and suspend his program that is undesirable to the beef producers of Man itoba and giv e them their $50 and wait until the federal program comes down? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, our program that is being developed by the producers themselves is a voluntary program. The program is voluntary and will be open to all producers in the province.

The honourable member might wish to forget the Beef Inc ome Assurance Program which they emascu­ lated, which they encou raged and practically begged farmers to get out of that program, Mr. Speaker, when in fact there would have been pay outs and assistance to producers for the last four out of seven years which did assist the beef ind ustry to a great extent. But, Mr. Speaker, the details and suggestions from the advi­ sory group, they are holding some meeti ngs, some meeting s they've attended and they will be coming forward with some recommendations to us, I hope, in a very short order. MR.

SP EAKER: The Honour able Mem ber for Emerson. MR. DRIEDG ER: Mr. Speaker, to the same Min ister then, could the Min ister then ind icate - he made reference to the previous program - how many pro­ ducers are still in that program and how much money was paid out in the year, from 19 81 and the current

Tuesday, 4 May, 1982 year of 19 82? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I kno w that the support price, I believe, for calves in that program for '81 was somewhere around the 97-cent mark and the support price for slaug hter beef was 77, somewhere around that area. That was the support price set under that program. I don't believe the support price has been annou nced for whoever is in the '82 program.

I would have to get the actual dollar amou nts that were paid, but in terms of the producers who are remaining in the program, there is I believe, I take that from memory, approximately 10 0-plus producers remaining in the program. MR. DRIEDGER: A final supplementary, could the Minis ter specifically ind icate how much money was paid out in '81 under that program? MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, I will take that specific question under advisement.

I don't have those fig­ ures, but I should tell the honourable member that until the spring of '80, when the terms were changed, where the government ind icated that if producers were to get out of the program im mediately they would not have to pay back the funds owing. Obviously, that's when producers said, well, thank goodness, that they' re forgetting about what is owi ng and over 4,000 producers got out at that point in ti me. MR. SPEA KER: The Honour able Memb er for Roblin-R ussell. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE (Robli n-Russ ell): Mr. Speaker, I have a question to the Hon ourable Min ister of Health.

I wonder, can the Ho nourable Min ister advise the House if his staff have finally isolated any possible source of the serious environmental prob­ lems which continue to plague Grand view School as I stand here this afternoon? MR. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Min ister of He alth. HON. LAURENT DESJARDINS (St. Boniface): The official of the lntermountain School District has listed several points and giv en this to our of ficials. The school buildin gs have been thoroughly tested; the repairs to the source of the Freon leak will be done and the combustion cham ber will be thoroughly cleaned.

Continuous moni toring of the school envi­ ronment will conti nue and further improvements to the school heating and ventilation systems will be done this summer. When the school is reopened, the furnace will not be in operation. For psychological reasons they wish a public nurse to be in constant duty for the next two or three weeks and this will be done. I believe that the school envir onment will be as good as possible when it reopens. I'm certainly lead to believe that this will be the case. Now, a further question was asked by the same member yesterday.

I think the concern was to the qual ifications and the trainin g of Environ mental and Labour Technologis ts sampling and monit oring air in the Grandview school and carrying out the inspec­ tions of furnace and air exchange system. Those staff of Envir on mental Services, the Department of Labour and Man power, and the Department of Health involved in air sampling, equipment testing and analysis of results are consi dered adequately trained. Further, they are supported by other special ists in the three departments. Those involved includ ed physicians, Dr. B. Carlton, the Grandview physician; Dr.

Erick Sigurdson, the Dauphin physician and part-time Med­ ical Officer of Health; Dr. French, who is the Chie f Medic al Officer of Health for the department; and Dr. J.C. Wilt, Director of Cadman Provin cial Laborato­ ries. In tec hnologi sts, there's Mr. Fred Ri ddle in the Environme ntal Services, Air Sampling Technologist, Di ploma in Biochem istry and Bachelor of Scienc e Degree, Major in Chem istry; Mr. Bernie Crisp, Regional Supervisor Environmental In spection Ser­ vices, Parkland Reg ion, Certificate in Public Health In spection; Workplace Safety and Health, there's a Chemist, Mr.

John Elias; Department of Labour, two boiler inspectors; blood analysis was carried out by the Westman Laboratory Services in Brandon and this is the report that I' ve had. I'm qu ite concerned , we seem to have a different reason practi cally every day and I hope this is the last one. MR. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, another question to the same Min ister. I wonder, can the Min ­ ister advise the House and the Board of Trustees of lntermountain School Division when it's safe to reopen that school, or is that responsibi lity on the shoulders of lntermountain School Division?

Who makes the decision when it's safe to open the school? MR. DESJARDINS: Mr. Speaker, I would think that the decision will be up to the school di vision , but certainly they have to have somethin g to go on and I think we owe it as the Department of Health to giv e them the assurance. I think that they should, they have a right to expect us to do that and we certainly will do that, tell him when in our estimation after we've co-ordina ted the efforts of the different departments if we feel it is safe to open this school. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Me mber for Virden. 2147 MR.

HARRY GRAHAM (Virden): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the Honourable Mini s­ ter of Agriculture. I' d like to ask the Honourable Mini s­ ter if he has made any repres enta tions to the Federal Min ister of Agricultur e protesting the proposed move of the Federal Government to charge the farmers an add itional fee for grading. MR. SP EAKER: The Honour able Min is ter of Agriculture. MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, several weeks ago that question was posed to me and I' ve had discussions with producers in the province.

We did raise this matter and, in fact, the Federal Min ister of Agricultur e indic ated that he would hold the proposed changes to some of the future chang es for further discussion with the Minis ters of Agricul tur e across this country. We have made representations and raised concerns with respect to the costs that were being im posed uni laterally.

Tuesday, 4 May, 1982 MR. GRAHAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, a supple­ mentary to the same Min ister. Should the Federal Government conti nue, as all ind ications seem to indi­ cate, to proceed in that man ner, would the Min ister of Agricu lture of Man itoba consider bearing some of that in spection cost at the provincial level rather than adding another tax on top of the already hard-pressed cattlemen of Man itoba? MR. URUSKI: Mr.

Speaker, in terms of those inspec­ tions that the member speaks of, it is not only that segment of the indus try that is affected, there are other segments of the agricultural ind ustry that are affected by this. Mr. Speaker, regardless of where the funds come from, as the member should be well aware, that it will be picked up by the consu mer or by the producer, whomever the service is provided for. Either the costs will be pick ed up in the retail price of the product or they'll be picked up at source from the producers.

The Province of Manit oba is attempting to assist producers in stabilizing their incomes which , in fact, take into account some of the costs that are borne by producers, whether or not costs that are specifically related to inspections and the like, it would not be our intention to be able to shoulder those kinds of additional costs. MR. SP EAKER: Order please. The time for question period has expi red. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SP EAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. ROLAND PENNER (Fort Rouge): Yes, Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Mini s­ ter of Fi nance, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Co mmittee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Commit tee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty with the Honour­ able Member for Flin Flon in the Chair for the Depart­ ment of Financ e, and the Honourable Mem ber for The Pas in the Chair for the Department of Government Services. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - GOVERNMENT SERVICES MR. CHAIRMAN, Harry M. Harapiak (The Pas): We are doing the Estima tes for Government Services on page 63.

The first item is General Adminis tration 1.(b) - Mr. Min ister. HON. SAMUEL USKIW (Lac Du Bonnet): Mr. Chair­ man, I would lik e to make one or two open ing com­ ments. The total departmental Estimates are up some­ thin g like $15 mil lion as is evident on the open ing page. Within that, we have no major new thrusts.

I think that what we probably are emphasizing, in fact, have been em phasizing as I understand for some period of time and are con tinuing to do that, is the in-house improvement of our operations in the area of trying to cut down costs, especially in the area of energy consu mption , trying to streamline the opera­ tions as between agencies and essentially trying to make the system work at a more efficient level. The Construction component is somewhat larger than last year, but not a great deal.

We are going to be involved in some $24 milli on worth of new construc­ tion, as opposed to $20 mil lion a year ag o, so it's not a terribly dramatic area of activity or increase, but nonethe less an increase that I suppose at leasts reflects the inflation situation that we have with us.

In the area of energy con sumption, one of the achievements to date, I think that is outstanding in the system, is the fact that we have been able to reduce con sumption, not in dollar terms, but in actual unit terms by around 20 to 25 percent which in essence has reduced our required expenditures by about $1.3 million for the coming fiscal year, just on that program alone. Also, in the area of the car fleet, we are now some­ where in the order of 40 percent of our car fleet being in the compa ct category and there are substantial savings involved as well, somewhere in the order of about $.5 million.

So, the emphasis has been on trying to fine tune, if you like, and streamline the operations of Government Services, which ind eed is a depart­ ment that services essentially the other departments in the government and agencies. 2148 Aside from that effort, of course, there have been small polic y chan ges and that has to do with the decision that has been annou nced some time ago with respect to converting some of our contract servi­ ces into in-h ouse services. I am talking about security where we have converted some of our contract servi­ ces to 46 in-house staff man year positions in the security field.

There are many reasons for that, but I can just cite a few. One of the reasons of course is the fact that our standards of service are higher within the system than they are when they are contracted out of the system. So there is a greater deg ree of consis­ tency when we move more towards the in-house and in particular where we have enough volume of activ­ ity, in other words, the larger government buildin gs such as Red Ri ver College or buildin gs of that nature.

We feel that they lend themselves better for the kind of service that we want, the quality of security that we're looking for; they lend themselves better to in-house operations. Also, in the area of jan itorial, there will be some chan ges there although we have not yet reached the point where we can quantify the numbers of people involved but there will be some change there, not a dramatic one, with respect to conversion to in-h ouse as opposed to contract.

There, too, it will be selective with respect to having to do with the size of the opera­ tion or the buildings involved and so on, but will not represent a very substantial part of the total opera­ tion. So those are the only two areas in program change that will show some small in crease in costs. All of the other em phasis is on decreasing the costs of the department in the areas of energy and in the area of car puchases and so on. So there have been some savings and some added costs and I suppose that, on balance, it is probably going to be a bit of a draw between the decision to become more efficient in

Tuesday, 4 May, 1982 some areas and the decision to move in to in-house staffing positions on the other side of the ledger. The other thing on that latter point is that, in part, that decision does reflect the concerns that have been expressed to us over many years about the govern­ ment in discrimi nately contract ing out. We believe that there is valid ity to that criticism, criticism that has been put forward by the Trade Unio n movement in particu lar, and to the extent that we could modify that; I think it's a reasonable position to adopt.

Now, that doesn't mean that there is not a practical approach to it and where you have smaller operations, it may not be all that practical to move into in-h ouse staffing. So, we have allowed ourselves quite a degree discretion in that area and the process, of course, has just begun. We really haven't had an opportun ity to review all of the com ponents, but in essence that is the pro­ cess that will be carried forward into the balance of this fiscal year.

Hopefully, by the end of this fiscal year, we will have decided where we want to round out that particular policy chang e in terms of facilities and numbers of people, but by and large, it should not be a sign ificant change. So, Mr. Chairman, with those few comments, I sug­ gest that we move on to the first item on the department. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Virden. MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, I believe that in the overall picture, everyone expects that costs will rise in dollar value as we see our dollar shrinkin g in value with inflation, apparently running unchecked or rela­ tively unchecked, we can expect those total dollar costs to in crease. That doesn't mean to say that whil e we are spendin g another $15 million, we are going to be doing any more work or providing any more ser­ vice.

It is one of the built-in problems of inflation and as long as governments of any hue, whether they be federal, provincial or muni cipal, continue to provide service regardless of cost, then we are going to have to pay the bill. So, we have to expect that the overall budget for Governme nt Services will go relatively slig htly higher than the average proportion of other departments, mainly because Government Services by itself is not a department.

It is nothing more than a service indus try for the other departments of govern­ ment and we know that other departments of govern­ ment have a tendency to be empi rical in nature and they always want a little more than what is really required. So, the job of the Min ister of Government Services is not an envious one at all. He has to answer to the Min ister of Fi nance and he wants to keep a control and have those necessary checks and balances in place to try and control the natural progression of other departments.

As we go through the Estimates, we can expect that the next three or four years will see Government Services, if I interpret this present gov­ ernment correctly, will be making much larger demands on Government Services in the next three or four years. It is my hop e that the Mi nister will do ever ything he can to curtail some of th ose expenditu res. However, I think we will get into probably some debate later on in this department when we get down to the annou nced plan of the Mini ster to change from contract to in-house.

I think the Min ister put his fing er on it quite correctly when he mentioned in his open­ ing statements that the Trade Union movement would be very happy with this an nouncement. That, natu­ rally, will spark some debate because we find then that the government really is not runn ing it; in fact, it is the trade unions that are runnin g it and that is evident by this move by the Min ister.

I would have to caution him not to proceed in that direction, not because the trade unions have requested it - I think the trade unions have nothing at all to do with it - but I want to point out to the Min ister that in any dealin gs in provision of services, if you have a contract, at the end of that contract if you are unsatis­ fied you do not have to renew that contract. You can retender and you can have another person supply the service and in that way the com petitive nature of bus­ in ess will ensure that you will get the finest service available.

On the other hand, when you are operating an in­ house operation and you have security of ten ure, and I'm not sayi ng this in a derogatory sense to any indi­ vidua ls in Government Services, but once a person has security of tenure, the same desire to succeed seems to disappear. You will have more problems, not less. The Minis ter in his remarks ind icated, it there was some dissatisfaction with the services being provided before, both in security staff and in jan itorial, I sug­ gest to him that his problems will be compounde d rather than dimini shed in that field.

I think there will be debate when we get to those various items as we go through the Esti mates. That's about all I would care to add at this time. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chai rman, I believe the mem ber is right. We should probably address that when we come to the item in the Estima tes Book. I will want to respond more fully at that state, but I accept the point that he is making for the moment. 2149 MR. CHAIRMAN: We are on 1.(b)

(1) Salaries-pass; 1.(b)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass; 1.(

c) Admin istra­ tion: Salaries-pass; 1.(c)

(2) Other Expenditur es­ pass; 1.(

d) Operational Support Services: Salaries­ pass; 1.(d)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Mem ber for Virden. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Min ister, there seems to be a fairly hefty increase in Other Expenditures here. MR. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman. That has to do with a Systems Development Program. Major expenditures are for the integrated property management system. We are in volved in systems development program­ min g in the Supply and Services and also in the Word Processing activities. That is an ongoing process, Mr. Chairman, but there is a desire to expand in order to bring about some of the efficie ncies that I have alluded to in my opening remarks. MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, the Min ister menti­ oned the Word Processing facilities. I sinc erely hope that none of the costs of the Word Processing are involved in this additional expenditure here.

Tuesday, 4 May, 1982 MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, it's only for our internal department operations that I'm alludin g to Word Processing. It has nothing to do with the other operations of the Word Processing system. It's only the Department of Government Services in-house component. MR. GRAHAM: What would that be? I notice it's not in the field of Salaries. Would that be in new equipm ent? MR. USKIW: No, it has to do in the area of Systems Development which involves some software and so one, it's materials. MR. GRAHAM: That's fine. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(d)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass; 1.(

e) Emergency Measures Organization; 1.(e)

(1) Salaries-pass - the Member for Virden . MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, the operations of EMO have been criticized I think over the last number of years and I know there has been qu ite a bit of criticism with respect to the activities of EMO when it comes to a matter of a disaster of some form or another tak ing place. Could the Min ister giv e us some rundown on what has occu rred in the past year and the restructuring on EMO? MR. USKIW: Wel l, Mr. Chairman, EMO in this department is merely a co-ordinating agency.

In the last year, or maybe more than a year, there was an attempt at involvi ng the muni ci pal level in the co­ ordina ting process. We had hired, some time ago, three people to estab­ lish such a co-ordin ating effort and to date, I believe, we have how many munic ipalit ies organized with EMO. There are a total of 185 municip alities and 17 local government districts for a total 202, and emer­ gency plans have been completed, with respect to 17 mun icip al governments and 17 northern communi­ ties. We're planning another 14 municip alit ies and 16 northern commu nities for the current fiscal year.

That's with respect to the three staff man years that were added to fulfil! that role. MR. GRAHAM: We have an additional three staff man years? MR. USKIW: No not proposed; they were brought in the last fiscal year, but just got operationa l so to speak. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, is the EMO Office operated on an 8-hour basis, a 16 -hour basis or a 24 -hour basis? MR. USKIW: As I understand it, Mr. Chairman, the mechanism provides for around the clock system. The agency itself operates on an eight-hour basis, after which there is a telephone number system that is in place for the other 16 hours.

Just another point, all of our key people are equipp ed with pagers and devi­ ces which would bring them int-0 ready contact with the emergency at hand. 2150 MR. GRAHAM: Do they have a rotation system of duty? MR. USKIW: Yes, there are duty personn el on· call at all times. MR. GRAHAM: What is the rotation? Is it one day a week or one every three days? MR. USKIW: One week per person at one time. MR. GRAHAM: And how many people are involved? MR. USKIW: A total of six people, Mr. Chairman. MR. GRAHAM: So every six weeks, one member has to be within range of a pager at all times? MR.

USKIW: Yes, is a duty person or each of those six serves one week out of the six as a duty person. MR. GRAHAM: Does that person have a backup? MR. USKIW: Yes, they are all involved in the sense that it's a backup of the other five. Whoever is the duty person has the other five as backups. MR. GRAHAM: Let's just be hypothetical. If there was an emergency at 10 o'clock tonight and the person who was supposed to be on duty was outside the range of his pager, where would the next call go at that time? MR. USKIW: The Telephone Answ ering Service has the next one on line. MR.

GRAHAM: Then the Answeri ng Service will have the next number to call? MR. USKIW: Yes. MR. GRAHAM: Will it have just one number or several numbers? MR. USKIW: It has one number for each of the alter­ nate persons so that it has a choice of the other five numbers, so to speak. The people involved are equi pped with mobile radios as well in their cars. It's not just reliance on the telephone system, Mr. Chairman. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I believe there was an emergency in Brandon last weeke nd. In that particu­ lar case, was EMO notified? MR. USKIW: We are not aware of it, Mr. Chairman.

The assumption is that they would have been. We have someone based there, Mr. Chairman, in Brandon. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I believe that up to now there has been some questions in the minds of, not only mem bers of the Leg islature, but I think the public in general as to the effectiveness of our EMO operation. It may be that we have one of the fine st operations in the world, but if it's not contacted, it can't spring into work on its own. It may be that

Tuesday, 4 May, 1982 through lack of communic ation people are not aware of who to call and when we get down to the Other Expenditur es in it, perhaps the Min ister can tell us how much we have planned for a public information program to apprise people of the avai labil ity of EMO? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the way it's set up, the public deals directly with the municip al level, which then deals with EMO. It is not precluded that the public can deal directly with EMO, but the way it is structured it is through the municipal system. MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, when the Min ister says the muni cipal system, does that include the muni cipal fire departments, muni cipal police forces? MR. USKIW: Yes , EMO, when they do interface with the muni cip al people, they do meet with all of the agencies in the mun icip ality, whether they are law enforcement or fire protection or whatever capacity the municip ality has. It is a general meeting having to do with all of those interest groups. MR. GRAHAM: In that general forum, who is playing the lead role? MR.

USKIW: The departmental person is merely there as a liaison person with the central system and in the capacity of an advi sory person to the local people, so it's not a question of who is leading who in this process. It is a matter of having to have regular liaison and com mun ication in order to fully under­ stand what is in the program. MR. GRAHAM: Their attempt then is to try and min­ imize the confus ion, is it? MR. USKIW: I think there are two thin gs involved.

One is to have as direct a line of com munic ation as is possible and practical , and the other is not to overly staff the system, hoping to use the existing resources of all levels of government in a way that is cost­ efficient while at the same time being satisfied that it is relatively foolproof. I don't kno w if there ever is a system that is completely foolproof, Mr. Chairman. MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, I kn ow in the past in the area of flood, the EMO operation has been one that has stood out as being very, very promine nt and high- profile and I think they have done an excellent job in the co-ordin ating role. However, in other mat­ ters, when it comes to envir onmental spills and thin gs of that nature, the EMO operation somehow seems to add to the confusion rather than minimi ze the confu­ sion. I was just wonderi ng if there is a different role for EMO to play in environm ental matters, rather than say natural disasters. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, in the case of a spill, as an example, the Environ mental Control Agency is the lead agency in dealing with the spill, if you lik e. EMO is then a co-ordin atin g agency that brings together all of the necessary people and equi pment, if you lik e, that is identified as being needed on the scene. They are not the people that make decisions with respect to the nature of the hazard or the environment or wha- tever. They are merely an admini strative mechanism to bring into play the forces that are necessary and that should be called upon to deal with a crisis. The same applies in flood situations.

The lead agency is the Flood Protection Branch of the Depart­ ment of Natural Resources. If they decide that they have an emergency, they then call on EMO to help them with the logistical aspect of dealing with that problem. MR. GRAHAM: Those are all the questions I had, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(e)

(1) Salaries-pass; 1.(e)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Virden. MR. GRAHAM: Before we pass that, the figure of 55,000 recoverable from Canada, that is purely an estimate, is it, or has this been a fai rly consis tent amount that in past has been recoverable from the Government of Canada? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, it used to be $1 00,000.00. That was always the figu re recoverable from the Gov­ ernment of Canada, which has been now estima ted on the basis of a project-oriented situation ratherthan a guaranteed sum, if you lik e, which is estimated to be required at 55,0 00. So, it's the estimate of a project­ oriented component.

MR. GRAHAM: This may be one of the very small areas where the Federal Government is attempting their cutback. MR. USKIW: It is a di fferent situa tion, yes, in that sense. It is a reduction. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(e)

(2) Other Expenditur es-pass; 1.(

f) Personnel and Payroll: 1.(f)

(1) Salaries - the Member for Virden. 2151 MR. GRAHAM: Have we any additional staff in this particular section? MR. USKIW: Yes, there are two, Mr. Chairman. There is a clerk, I believe, and there is going to be and we haven' t yet moved on this one, there's also going to be one special employment officer employed in this department. MR. GRAHAM: Will there be any high school and university students employed during the summ er months in this particular field? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, this is the admin istration part of the department, so it wouldn't be in this partic­ ular area. MR. GRAHAM: It will be further down?

MR. USKIW: I am advised that there will be STEP students in the department, but not in the main adm in­ istration end. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(f)

(1) Salar ies-pass; 1.(f) (2 ) Other Expen ditures-pass; 1.(

g) Word Processing

Tuesday, 4 May, 1982 Branch: 1.(g)

(1) Salaries - the Member for Virden. MR. GRAHAM: Could the Min ister give us an update on the activities of the Word Processing Branch? MR. USKIW: Mr. Cha irman, it's not a branch; it is really a Word Processing Centre. We operate the Word Processing Centre in the building on part of the time. I believe we occupy the centre for eight hours out 24, the balance of the time is used by Hansard. MR. GRAHAM: There are no other departments that actually use the eq uipment, is there? You do all the work for the various departments? MR.

USKIW: We are the agency that handles work for other departments within this buildin g, Mr. Chair man, yes. MR. GRAHAM: How many termin als have we now in this building? MR. USKIW: We have six work stations , plus one extra rental work station and one backup work sta­ tion. That's in the Centre itself. Then the Leg islative Council has two, the Executive Council has one, the Energy and Mi nes Min ister and Deputy Min ister has one; that's it. MR. GRAHAM: The Department of Finance uses their own, do they? MR.

USKIW: Yes, they have four stand-alone Mi com units, two permanent and two on a rental basis and they have two in Federal-Provincial Relations. MR. GRAHAM: Is that tied into the Word Processing Centre, or is it separate? MR. USKIW: The ones in Fi nance stand alone. MR. GRAHAM: In the Word Processing Centre, believe it was raised in the House not too long ago the question of Workplace Safety and Health, has there been much concern about the Workplace Safety and Health within the Centre itself? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chair man, that item is being addressed by the Consulting Services Branch which was on the other page of the Esti mates Book. Yes, it's the next line; that's right, it's the next item. If the member wants to get into that item, that's fine. MR. GRAHAM: Well, I thought we were just discus­ sing the Word Processing Centre in general, and ... MR. USKIW: Well, that aspect though, Mr. Chairman, if I have the floor, is dealt with by the Word Processing Consulting Services part of our department. MR. GRAHAM: Well then, perhaps we should pass (1) and (2). MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1.(g )(1) -pass; 1.(g) (2) -Other Expenditures-pass. 1.(g) (3) - the Member for Virden. 2152 MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chai rman, it looks as though we are going to be recovering considerably less from other departments than in the past. Could the Mini ster giv e us an explanation for that? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chair man, yes. The present policy, and that's a chang e in the acc ounting system, is that the bulk of the recoveries go directly to the Mini ster of Fin ance through Consolidated Revenues as opposed to back into this department. MR. GRAHAM: I believe the Min ister has some further explanation. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Cha irman, yes, one clarifica tion. I think I was alludi ng to another item. We're recovering everything with the exception of the su pervisor's salary and the mai ntenance contractor. MR. GRAHAM: Have there been any new depart­ ments come into the Word Processing this year? MR. USKIW: Not to date, but we do antici pate some, Mr. Chairman. MR. GRAHAM: Could the Min ister identify? MR. USKIW: Yes.

The add-ons to the existing Wang Central Processor will be one in the Provincial Audit Office, the Mini ster of Agric ulture, one work station; In formation Services, one work station; and Legisla­ tive Council, one additional work station; That's one, two, three, four. MR. GRAHAM: No, that's all on that. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1.(g) (3)-pass; 1.(

h) Word Processing Consulting Services Branch, (h)

(1) Salaries - the Mem ber for Virden. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chai rman, this is a new splitting­ down in the Word Processing System. Perhaps we can get an explanation from the Min ister here. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chai rman, several months ago the previous admi nistration decided it was desirable to consolidate the whole question of Word Processing Systems into this department and therefore this department then provides a Consulting Services to the whole government system on the trainee require­ ments, equipment requirements and everything that relates to Word Processing Systems so that we don't have duplication of effort by a number of departments and, indeed, inefficiency through that process. It has become sort of the mai n depot, if you like, of the Word Processing System for the government. MR.

GRAHAM: How many people are employed in that particular project? MR. USKIW: Four, Mr. Chairman. MR. GRAHAM: These people are purely for consu lta­ tion in that respect? MR. USKIW: We provide for assistance in feasibili ty

Tuesday, 4 May, 1982 studies, health and safety and training. MR. GRA HAM: Well, the directive that was referred to in the Legislature the other day in question period then would probably have come from one of these consultants, would it? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I'm not familiar with the issue. Perhaps I was not there at the time. Perhaps the member would want to elaborate. MR. GRA HAM: Mr.

Chairman, I haven't got the Hans­ ard in front of me for that particu lar day but I do believe there was a directive issued to those that were operating the various stations that if they squi nted and closed their eyes, then rubbed their forehead and then squi nted agai n that the troubles may go away. I don't think it was really a directive that was appre­ ciated by very many people and it might have been a unofficial di rective. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, we have no kn owledge of it. It certainly wasn't a contri bution from this depart­ ment as I understand it. MR. GR AHAM: No, that's all I had on this. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1.(h)

(1) Salaries-pass; 1.(h)

(2) Other Expenditures-pass. This brings us to the next department, No. 2. Field Services, 2. (a) ( 1) Salar ies-pass; 2. (a)

(2) Other Expenditu res-pass; 2.(

b) Physical Plant, 2.(b)

(1) Salaries-pass. The Memb er for Virden. MR. GRA HAM: Perhaps when we get into this where there is a sizable item here and perhaps the Min ister would lik e to giv e us a further breakdown before we proceed. MR. USKIW: In this area, Mr. Chairman, we're look­ ing at two additional SMY s, 477 altogether, and if and when we decide to move ahead with some jan itorial in-house staffing positions, it will have to be in this area. We have provided some dollars for that eventual­ ity, Mr. Chairman. We have not qua ntified if at this point in time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Mem ber for Elmwood. MR. GRA HAM: No, you go ahead.

MR. RU SSELL DOERN (Elmwood): Well I had two questions I wanted to ask the Min ister on Physical Plant. The first one involves the long overdue need to do something about the physical environment or the air conditioning of this buildin g and I'v e been talking to other Min isters about this question for the past 16 years. It seems to me that it is long overdue that this build­ ing be provided with the proper envir onment and the several hundred employees who work here.

You have a building which must be worth $100 million on today's market in terms of construction or value; it's possible to air condition the buildin g by using the heating ducts, you don't have to run special ducting throughout the buildi ng. There is a central power plant. The Minis ter himself must recognize the need for air conditioning, because I remember being in his office one time five or six years ago, it must have been 90-odd degrees outside in the hot prairie sun and his own secretaries must have been working in an area that must have been about 110 deg rees Fahrenheit.

I can't recall ever seeing an office that was hotter and the secretaries were practically slumped over their typewriters, and surely there cannot be much effi­ cienc y in this buildin g in the summertim e when the sun is shinin g and this must go on for many months.

So I sim ply ask the Min ister, in view of the fact that many, many, many people in Man itoba have air condi­ tion ed homes, work in air conditione d offices, drive air condit ioned cars, why do they have to come to this building and suffer through the sum mer, because this is one of the only office buildings in the City of Win­ nip eg or in any other modern city in North America that doesn't have air conditioning? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the mem ber raises a point that I know has been discussed many, many times before.

It was an annual event, as I recall it, for many , many years in the Seventies and I suppose it probably was during the term of the previous admin is­ tration. The answers have always been the same, that desirable but perhaps not the top priority sort of thing. I would lik e to in dicate though, that with the build­ ing of the new Law Courts, that there is a requirement to expand our house facilities, without which we really can't get into progressive air condit ioning for this particular buildin g.

There is a need for a larger powerhouse capacity, in order to giv e us the chillin g capacity that would be required. So we're looking at stage one as the Law Courts Buildi ng, along with the expansion of the power­ house, after which it will be feasible to buy stages and add parts of this buildin g into that system, but that's probably two or three years down the road. MR. DOERN : Well, Mr.

Chairman, where there's a will, there's a way and I just asked the Min ister whether he himself would seriously consider, given that physical possibil ity, whether he himself would favour such a move even if it's in stages; even if the building wasn't done all at one shot; even if it was done by floor or by phasi ng. Is the Min ister himself generally agreeable to such a proposal? MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, I really haven't dwelt on it quite frankly.

I know that during the summ er months that the buildin g can be, or at least certain sections of this building can be quite unbear­ able for both the staff and the government or ind eed the ML As or whoever. Just how high a priority to attach to that, of course, is quit e another question. 2153 In proceedin g in the way that we are now proceed­ ing, we know that we will have the capacity to add this buildin g to the system, but in a way which will be cost efficient, rather than going ahead with this building first and then proceeding with the Law Courts Bui ld­ in g second.

I believe the reverse procedure giv es us some efficienc y. I don't know how much, but I believe there is some efficiency.

Tuesday, 4 May, 1982 It's a matter that hasn't been discussed, Mr. Chair­ man, by myself with my staff quite frankly, other than in a very casual way, and certainly not at the govern­ ment level, so to project what will happen in the next year or two, I believe I'm not in a position to do that other than that in about two or three years we will have the capacity in the power station to provide for air conditioning in this building. MR.

DOERN: Well, I would just ask the Min ister on that last point, is he saying then that with the installa­ tion of new air conditi oners in the central power­ house, that there will be the physical capacity there to also air condition this building, or does he mean that there'll have to be additional equi pment installed to air condition the buildin g? MR. USKIW: When that process is completed the chi ller capacity will be large enough to handle this building as well, so one could progressively add sec­ tions of this buildin g over a period of time without having to ag ain expand the powerhouse itself.

Yes, the Deputy Min ister points out a very important point and that is the trick will be which sections will get the priority; perhaps we'll have to have a draw on that one. MR. CHAIRM AN: 2. (b)

(1) Salaries - The Member for Virden. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, perhaps while we're having a rather general di scussion right now, it might be appropriate for the Min ister to give us a general outline. He's talked about the ex pansion of the powerhouse. At the present time the powerhouse services this building, the Law Cour ts Buildin g; does it service the Woodsworth Buildin g and the Norquay Building? It also provides service to the old Vaughan Street Det­ ention Centre and the old Land Titles Building. Is that correct? MR. USKIW: Well, Mr.

Chair man, the Woodsworth Buildi ng, the Norqua y Building, the Archives Build­ ing, the Leg islative Building, the Law Courts Buildin g, the Land Titles Building, the Lieutenant -Governor's House are all serviced by that facility. I'm not sure about - what was the other one that was mentioned? There was one other one - the Vaughan Street - I'm not sure about that one. MR. GRAHAM: Is that buildin g still occupied? A MEMB ER: Twenty-three Kennedy. MR. USKIW: Twenty-th ree Kennedy. That must be the PC Headquar ters. MR. GRAHAM: No the other buildin g I mentioned was the old Vaughan Street Detention Home. MR.

USKIW: Yes, they're serviced by heating, but not by air conditi oning. MR. GRAHAM: Well out of th.ose building, for air con ditioning purposes, are any of them presently being serviced from the power plant for air condit ioning. MR. USKIW: Well, the Woodsworth Buildin g is; the Norquay and the Archives are. MR. GRAHAM: So three of those buildin gs are pres­ ently serviced? MR. USKIW: That is correct. MR. GRAHAM: Are there plans to also air condition the Law Courts Building? MR. USKIW: The plans for the new Law Courts Build­ ing provide for air cond itioning, yes. MR. GRAHAM: But the old buildin g isn't? MR.

USKIW: The new power or the upgraded power plant will have the capacity to also incl ude the old Law Courts Building. Perhaps, Mr. Chai rman, I should elaborate on that. The old Law Courts Building is sched uled for renovation once the new Law Cour ts Buil ding is comple ted and occupied, so it's a few years down the road. MR. GRAHAM: I was wondering if the Min ister would be prepared after the supper hour adjournment to perhaps bring us the plans and show us the plans for the general improvement and the proposed develop­ ment of this general area. Would that be possible? MR.

DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Phil Eyler (River East): Mr. Min ister. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, we do have a set of plans, they're not very large, but we do have a set of plans that we can make availa ble this even ing. I thought perhaps we'd be fin ished before then but perhaps that is presumptuous on my part. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, through you to the Min ister, the present Land Titles Building, is that occupied? MR. USKIW: No, Mr. Chairman. The plan for that particular buildin g is to have it renovated and it will be used as quarters for the judges who will be servicing the new Law Courts Building. MR.

GRAHAM: Is this a five-year plan, or a seven­ year plan, or a ten-year plan? MR. USKIW: On a progressive basis it'll probably take about seven years to complete all of this, Mr. Chairman, a seven-year plan. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Portage. MR. LLOYD HYDE (Portage la Prairie): Mr. Chair­ man, I just wonder when I can bring this to the atten­ tion of the Min ister. It's about the Portage Provincial Buildin g. MR. USKIW: Well, it depends what the member has in 2154

Tuesday, 4 May, 1982 mind, Mr. Chairman. Perhaps he should indic ate and then we could ... MR. HYDE: Well, I'll tell you, what I'd like to bring to your attention is the lack of parking space available for both the employees and anyone wishing to do business within the building. MR. USKIW: The item is in deed the Constructio­ n/ Acq uisition resolution, but to satisfy the member, I can tell him that we made provision in these Estima tes for parkin g facilities for that buildin g. MR. HYDE: You have. Well, I'm glad to hear that. You're going to please . MR. USKIW: We're looking after Portage very well, Mr.

Chairman. MR. HYDE: ... yes, Mr. Minis ter, I'll be looking for­ ward to the progress of that little improvement there because, as I understand that when the buildin g was put there by the NOP admin istration of the tim e, they were going to assure the City of Portage la Prairie that adequate parking was going to made avai lable. Some­ thing went wrong with their plans and it's just a holy terror in there. If I was a resident of the imm edia te area, I' d be up in arms long ago over that because there's just no way can you park in front of your own buildings, your own home, the way thi ngs are today.

It's espec ially bad in the winter months with the build­ up of snow; I've seen 6th Street na rrowed down to one lane of traffic due to push-up of snow. I'm certainly pleased that some action is going to be taken on that subject. Thank you. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I hate to mention it, but it's probably appropriate to mention it, the mem ber says something went wrong with the NOP plans of the '70s. I think that wrong was in October of '77. We'll leave it at that. MR. DE PUTY CHAIRMAN: 2.(b)( 1 )-pass; 2.(b) (2)­ pass; 2.(b) (3)-pass; 2.(b) (4) -t he Member for Virden. MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, has the Department of Government Services giv en up in trying to recoup from other departments or is there a real reason for about a 500- perce nt dec rease in the amount recoverable? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, that is what I was allud­ ing to earl ier in error on the other resolution. This is the area where Financ e recovers from Other Agencies where we were receiving the recovery directly before, so it's an accounting change. MR. DEPU TY CHAIRMAN: 2.(b) (4) - the Mem ber for Elmwood. MR. DOE RN: Mr.

Chairman, I wanted to ask the Min ­ ister a couple of questions on the general area of the sound system in the Leg islature. I regard the present sound system as a disaster. I think $70,000 was spent on this to in stall a new system; presumably, it had advantages over the old system. I don' t see any. Under the old system each indi vidua l ML A had a speaker before him, each one had a microphone and they had a speaker in the sense of you could hear whoever was on the microphone.

Also, as a result of the way it was designed, there was some kind of an ampl ification of the voice of the person who was on the mike, so that therefore whoever had the floor could be heard clearly and distinctly and had some measure of authority. Now there is no voice amplifica­ tion and everybody in the entire Chamber has the same volume, so that the hecklers and the speaker cannot be distingu ished. You know, I personally resent and dislik e wearing an earplug or piece or whatever it is. -(l nterjection)­ No.

I find it difficult to hear and I find that when there is somethin g hot and heavy in the Chamber that it's just a comp lete disaster. If a person were an observer, other than somebody standing on their feet, they wouldn't kn ow who was saying what and where it was coming from. So, I make this point to the Min ister; he has in herited this system and we are I believe suffer­ ing un der it. It may have some advantages about French translation and this and that, but surely with modern tec hnology - I mean we're talking about Telidon today.

We can put men on the moon; we can commun icate through satellites with people all over the world by telephone. We're getting into advanced com mun ication systems all over the world and yet we have this lousy sound system. Surely, the Min ister can ask his staff to call in some consu ltants and ask them to make an im provement in this system. I would be happy if we would tear it out and install the old one.

I would be thoroughly delig hted, but sinc e we are not going to do that, and since a great deal of money has already been spent, surely there must be a method whereby the person who has the floor has his voice ampli fied, whether this means some patchwork sys­ tem of ampl ifiers on the floor or whether each ML A should have again some sort of a system whereby there is an indi vidual sound system on each desk and so on. Surely, the wearing of earphones and the fact that hecklers are louder than the main speaker is not a good system; it's a poor system.

I ask the Min ister whether he would at least investi­ gate this. Call in his staff, ask them to call in some audio consultants and spend a couple of hundred or a couple of thousand dollars, whatever is necessary, to im prove this system. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I know what the member is alludin g to, but I'm not certain that there is much that can be done, I suppose we can look at it. It is intended that we have a complete translation system and because of that you must have the earplug system in place.

I suppose one could have a dual system, but then what you will have is French and English coming through the open system while at the same time you may be listening to one of those lang uages on the earplug system. I am not just sure how much attention one could pay to the sound waves that are com in g through both ways at the same tim e. That could be a problem, unless one was to eq uip a microphone sys­ tem in a way that one would shut it off when one used the other system. So, you are really talking about two systems; I don't know if you are talking about one system. 2155

Tuesday, 4 May, 1982 MR. DOE RN: Mr. Chairman. I have been to the Un ited Nations years ago. I don't know how many official langua ges they have. They must have a dozen or more; I really don' t know how many are official, maybe it's less, but what you need an earplug for is a trans latio n. If a person in the Man itoba Legis lature, like my colleague here, gets up and makes a speech in French. then that simply is what is heard in the Chamb er. In other words. when he or the Me mber for St.

Bon iface speak in French that. whether amplified as it should be, or the present lousy system of natural voice. and some people's words don't get out farther than their own mouth in terms of hearing distance, whoever the main speaker is, French or English, that should be heard audi bly without any artificial aids. If you want a translation, then you should put on your earpiece and you will then get the translati on. There is no problem in a sense of your going to have one com in g over one and one over the other.

If my colleague has the floor. everyone should be listen in g to French and if they don't understand Fren ch then they can get their translation via the earpiece. I just don't understand that point. I simp ly say to the Minis ter that the present system is rotten and it is a backward step from what we had. The advantage is that it provides for translation whe­ reas the old one did n't. That's the big advantage, but the disadvantage is no voice amplif ication. People are not heari ng properly or they are wearing earpieces and people are ta lking off the mike and it's just an absolute sham bles.

It is a worse situation after a con­ siderable expenditure than we had previously. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman. I believe that I would want to have the opportunity to turn off the open system, if you like, if at that point in time I wanted to use the earplug system. the translation system. I don't think I would want to receive two voices, shall we say, coming at me at the same tim e; one via the earplug and one via the traditional audio system. So, one would have to have the mechanic s of turning one off if one wants to plug into the other one.

It's awfully diffi­ cult, in my opinion, to try to listen to com mentary or speech-making if you have got two different lan­ gua ges coming through at the same time. You should be able to shut one off if it's going to work at all. if the suggestion of the Me mber for Elmwood is going to be practical. I don't kn ow that you can make it opera­ tional in a way that would be satisfactory without having that facility. MR. DO ERN: Mr. Chairman, if you can't have subti­ tles. then you can always stick your finger in your ear while you are listen ing to the translation.

Wherever you go, I mean you can go anywhere where there are translations. you hear the two. that's normal. - (Int erjection)- I know. but the average person who doesn't understand the foreign lang uage only hears a noise. so that is not the issue. I think the real issue is, why do hecklers have a greater in put into the debate than the person who has the floor under our system? That is surely not a good system. I just ask the Min ister, will he look into this ques­ ti on?

Will he ask his staff to in vestigate an ampl ifica­ tion system and find out how much it would cost and find out whether it could be done technical ly? 2156 MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman. we have no reason not to want to improve the audio system in the Leg islature if that seems to be the concern and desire of members. I don't mind giving him that assurance that we will look at it. I am not sure what we will end up with, but there is no harm in taking a look at the question. MR. DE PUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Virden. MR. GRAHAM: Mr.

Chairman, it is not very often that I come to the aid of the Member for Elmwood, but in this partic ular case I have to say that I ag ree with the honourable member. The move that was made when the sound system was chang ed was one that all members looked forward to with great antic ipation and I think that all members were very disappoi nted in what they got. One of the dangers that, or I shouldn't say dangers, maybe one of the problems that we got was the type of microphones are supposed to be extremely sensitive and when you have an amplification there is a real danger of feedback through a live mike.

It is a problem that we are faci ng to some extent in the Cha mber now. I kn ow there were tests done when the system was first put in with two or three ampli fiers strategically placed around the Cham ber and the feedback was one that would cause a nigh tmare for the operator of the console. So. there is a problem there, but I think that all mem bers would agree that the system we have today is not as good as what we had before, even though the old one was antiq uated and it was difficult to get parts.

When the odd rolled-up newspaper hit a microphone at the end of the Session it got broken; it was difficult to repair, but it was a system that was better than what we have today and I would support the Mem ber for Elmwood and ask the Min isterto take a second look at it. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chai rman, I have no further com­ ments. I think we are prepared to review that. perhaps some alternatives may be found. MR. DEPU TY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR. DO ERN: Mr. Chairman. the other question I asked the Min ister and this is not. I suppose. totally his responsibilit y. It's in regard to Hansard.

It used to be that now and then, as it sti ll is the case to a lesser extent, some witty repartee used to appear in Hansard and under the new system it seems that there is very little in the way of interjection. Now, of course. it's a problem for the recorder and maybe for the typist to sometimes determine who is saying what, but it cer­ tai nly made for good reading. I kno w that I have heard one or two people who actually read Hansard. if you can bel ieve that, Mr. Cha irman ... MR. USKIW: There's only one or two though. MR.

DOE RN: ... who are not ML As. feel that the record is sadder as a result and I certainly think that. I know yesterday, in comm ittee, there were some very amusing comments made. I looked quickly to see if they were recorded; they weren't. My friend, the Member for Lakeside, was called to order by the

Tuesday, 4 May, 1982 Chairman and told that he was making too much noise and that the Min ister couldn't hear the ques­ tions being put by some of the ML As and the Memb er for Lake side piped up and sai d, "Wel l. the reason they can't hear it. Mr. Chairman, is you are bang ing your gavel all the tim e." That sort of stuff is lost, it's a great loss.

I don't know if now we are into super efficiency and we just don't stand for that any more, whether there is a techn ical problem, but I simp ly say that on occasion when a remark crackles across the floor or across the table, in some instances it's quite clear who said it and in some instances, where it's not obscene, it is worth recording. It captures the flavour of the House. I kn ow in the Federal House, when something happens, they used to say the member said, oh, oh. Of course, they said all sorts of thi ngs, but our record is much cleaner and leaner and I prefer the old Hansard to the new Hansard. MR.

USKIW: I don' t kn ow, Mr. Chairman, whether there is a technic al problem that prevents the usage of com mentary that is intr oduced into the debate by other than the direct participants in the debate. I don't read Hansard, so I haven't noticed it quite frank ly. I don't think there are many people that do read Hans­ ard, although I suppose there are some and perhaps maybe there is a problem of flavour and content that perhaps is desirable. I can check to determine whether or not there is any techn ical reason why that isn't recorded. MR. CHAIRMAN, Harry M. Harapiak (The Pas): The Member for Virden. MR.

GRAHAM: On a Point of Order, Mr. Chairman. I think Hansard comes under the Department of Legis­ lation, not under Government Services. MR. USKIW: That is correct. Why were we debating it? MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b) (4)-pass; 2.(

c) Workshop - Im provements and Alterations to Buildin gs and Grounds: Salaries and Wages - the Member for Virden. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, I believe this is the correct

section to raise the issue of Dutch elm disease and the treatment that was applied on the trees around this buiding. I wonder if the Min ister could giv e us a report on the effectiveness of that treatment and whether they plan to continu e it. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, I am advised that all of the trees were injected and all of the trees in this area were sprayed at the trunk level to effectively control the overwin tering beetles. An expenditur e of some $50,000 was involved and out of 250 trees we lost two trees out of this area. So, that's the record of it.

We also do a tremendous of prunin g of dead branches and so on. I still believe it remains to be seen whether or not the program is the answer, if you lik e. I don' t think there is a real ans wer; certainly it's a major deterrent I suppose; terribly expensive obviously. MR. GRAHAM: In that treatment. were there any trees that were suffering from Dutch elm disease at that time that were treated or is this purely a preventa­ tive program? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the program is a preven­ tative program.

No trees that I am aware of have been identified as infected by Dutch Elm disease, including the two that were removed. They were removed for other reasons, namely an excessive amount of dead wood, dead branches, etc. MR. GRAHAM: That program only involved the trees around this buildin g? It has not been extended to any other provincial buildin gs or physical plants that the province owns? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the other areas where we have undertaken simil ar treatment is at the Selkir k Mental Health Centre, the Fort Osborne Com plex, and the Brandon Mental Health Centre. MR. GRAHAM: And the results?

We have lost no trees at all to Dutch elm disease sin ce that treatment? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, in the Selkirk area there has been a tremendous amount of diseased trees. Sixteen were removed, ten were confirmed as Dutch elm diseased trees. The remainder were 50 percent dead wood, if you like. These are mostly in the shelter belt area, that's at the Se lkirk institution. MR. GRAHAM: And that was after treatment or were those trees untreated? 2157 MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, my guess would be that those trees were infected quite a period before the treatments were undertaken. MR.

GRAHAM: Is there an evaluation presently going on as a result of that program to see whether or not it was effective? MR. USKIW: The impression is that the best we can hope for is a holding action on the spread of the disease. We don' t think that we can elimi nate it. The City of Winnip eg is findin g a very simil ar experience to that of the province. It's an ongoing costly opera­ tion. It probably is worthwhile in the sense of the age of the trees that we have and so on that ought to be preserved.

At the same time, there is a complemen­ tary program of tree planting of other species which would not be susceptible to Dutch elm disease to the long-term program. MR. GRAHAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, I believe the Jap­ ane se elm is one that is supp osed to be immun e to Dutch elm disease. Could the Min ister indic ate to what extent the planting of Japanese elms has been carried out on government properties? MR. USKIW: The department has empha sized green ash I am told, Mr. Chairman, as opposed to the elm. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Memb er for Portage la Prairie.

Tuesday, 4 May , 1982 MR. HYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I was wondering if the Minister could indic ate to me whether have they established a pattern where this Dutch elm disease is more effective. I was always of the opin ion that it was bordering rivers and such; tha t it seemed to appear, but I'm wondering if he could indic ate to me if that is the case in the Portage area, and are we heavily infected in that area. MR. USKIW: Well, Mr. Chairman, we are really not in a position to know in the sense that the department we are now consideri ng is involved mainly with govern­ ment grounds.

The agencies that are responsible for Dutch elm disease control are Agricultur e and Resou rces. So really I can't giv e the member an over­ view picture, so to speak, of the Dutch elm disease problem. I can only relate to what we are doing on government grounds. MR. CHAIRMAN: It is 2.(c)

(1) Salaries and Wages-pass. 2. (c) (2 ) Workshop Operations - the Member for Virden. MR. GRAHAM: Mr. Chairman, Im provements and Alterations, I suppose we could have covered it under something else, but in the operation of the room next door here in our so-called library, which is now nothin g more than a store front for our library, what extent are the renovations going to be in that room? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Mini ster. MR. USKIW: Mr. Chairman, the expend iture is run­ ning around or has been about $30,000 so far.

We will be introducing some casual seating capacity for read­ ing purposes and the intent is to spend about 50,000 or 60,000 additional dollars to complete the renova­ tions in that area. MR. GRAHAM: The floor will be done and everything? MR. USKIW: I' m told, Mr. Chairman, the flooring has been done. It's been carpeted this year. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(c )(2 ) Workshop Operations­ pass; 2.(c)

(3) Workshop Min or Projects-pass; 2.(c)

(4) Less: Recoverable from Departments-pass. 2.(

d) Leased Acco mmodations,

(1) Salaries - the Member for Elmwood. MR. DOE RN: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to just ask a couple of general questions here which could fit in under a number of departments, another number of areas of the Estima tes, and I won't be here this even­ in g so I want ed to rel ate them to Leased Accommodations. Apparently, the Land Value Appraisal Commis sion is moving from the Woodsworth Buildin g. If so, where are they moving to and if so, why? MR. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Min ister. MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, at the moment we have not yet determin ed the location of the Land Value Appraisal Commission but it's intended to be in the 2158 vicin ity of the Legislative Buildin g. MR. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, part of the practical and philosophical question is, of course, how much the government should build and how much it should lease, and I just wanted to ask a couple of questions in that regard. Autopac is now leasing accommodation and the province owns property, I assume, beside the Museum. Do we still in fact own and hold that property? MR. USKIW: Yes, Mr. Chairman, we do. MR.

DOERN: The province owned property in the vicin ity of City Hall and there was a plan to build the new Law Courts Building there. I understand that property was giv en or loaned or something to the Chi nese community. Can the Min ister report on the status of that property? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chai rman, as I recall it, the provinc e has indic ated their willin gne ss to giv e up of that prop­ erty to the China town Development, I believe for a nomi nal fee, provided that the City of Winnip eg was going to make a sim ilar contribution and which apparently they have agreed to or have already done, so that property is no longer available to the Govern­ ment of Man itoba for its purposes. MR. DOERN: So that property which was probably acquired at $1 mil lion or so has been giv en to the Chi nese community? MR. USKIW: Mr.

Chairman, I have no kn owledge as to the acq uisition costs, but there has been ag ree­ ment with the Chi natown Development Corporation for the use of that property. MR. DOERN: Can the Min ister indic ate when that was done? My im pression is that was done during the election campaign or shortly before. MR. USKIW: My recollecton has it that we final ized that arrangement after the election, Mr. Chairman. It was an ongoing process and I believe I sign ed some documents to that effect or at least it came across my desk and it was processed. MR. DOE RN: But the announ cement was made prior to the election? MR.

USKIW: Well that I don't know. MR. DOE RN: Mr. Chairman, my other question is, I assume we still own the property in Elmwood at Sta­ dacona and Talbot? MR. USKIW: Yes, yes. MR. DOERN: And I wanted to ask the Min ister if he has any intention to develop that site. Now, that site was first looked at about nine years ago as a possible site for a government office buildin g and a senior citizens complex. In fact, it was also once looked at as a possible site for a Liquor Control Commission store because there are very few in that part of town. There

Tuesday, 4 May, 1982 used to be, in fact, a liquor store on Hende rson Hi gh­ way near Johnson but that's gone. But my interest was a possible government office buildin g of 50,000 square feet and, in particular, with it a senior citizens housing complex of some 60 or 62 units. It took years to acquire the property. There was certainly a need for accommodation for civil servants and an interest on the part of the Schreyer admin istra­ tion to decentralize civil servants. Some civil servants were put into rented acc ommo dation on Henderson Highw ay and then were moved later into St.

James, and I guess one question I might just ask the Min ister there is, does the government, does the Min ister have a continuin g interest in decentralizing Civil Service services and Government Services throug hout the City of Winn ipeg and throughout the Province of Man itoba? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chai rman, the question is a valid one. From my own point of view, I've always promoted the idea of the government being a part of the econ­ omy of every community in the province as opposed to central izing its operations in one or two regions.

So, I think it flows from that, that it also makes sense to do that with in a large urban community that you don' t necessarily have an adva ntage, perhaps, only a matter of advantage of conven ienc e to some staff people by concentrating the Civil Service in one area but, by and large, I believe it is desirable to spread out the job opportunites, environme ntal aspects of it, as they relate to a government's role in a community. All of those factors enter into it. I don't believe that any argument has been put forward for concentration of government buildings.

Certain ly, it makes sense to have certain key facilities near the Legislative Assem­ bly but, by and large, I believe the Civil Service could and ought to be dis persed throughout the whole of the urban communi ty to the extent that is practical. MR. DOE RN: Mr. Chai rman, again, the Stadacona and Talbot site, I guess, first of all, a site was sought and final ly, I guess, in 1973-7 4 the search for a site in the area was looked at.

Then I suppose around 1975 or 1976 property was purchased, an ar chitect was comm ission ed, conceptual drawings and working drawings were completed, the contract was tendered, the contract was awarded to a contractor. This all took a long time and finally in 1977 in the fall, the sign went up, the fence went up, the contractor moved his mobile home or whatever it was onto the property and was on the verge of excava ting the basement and commencing the construction when an election was involved. The Lyon Government came in and promptly cancelled the project.

That is now four years ago; the property is still there. I believe the need for a senior citizens' home can be substantiated. When it was annou nced there would be one, many people spoke to me and were interested and thrilled with the prospect of finding accommoda­ tions in the Elmwood area because they were Elm­ wood residents looking forward to moving in. I'm simply saying that projected comple x of an office buildin g with a senior citizens' buildin g has been kn ocked out four years ago.

I simply say to the Mini s­ ter, would he investigate and re-examine that prop­ osal, that prospect with a view to retendering it if he feels and the government feels that the need is still there for office accommodation and senior citizens' apartments? MR. USKIW: Mr. Chair man, I believe that all of the properties that we have in the City of Winnip eg ought to be looked at, at a time when government believes that there is a need for additional office space.

With respect to senior citizen accommodation, that is somethin g for another department to consider and, secondly, the rules with respect to the buildin g of those projects have been altered very substantially by the Government of Canada so that one would have to have a local sponsor for a senior citizens' complex in order to get the government to put up the mortgage capital . It's no longer a matter of the province being the in itiator as it was in the past. I believe there are many other restrictions on the program that I'm not able to relate to at the moment.

With respect to the use of the property as an office facility, we can take that under advisement sinc e it was, in fact, programmed and determine in the not too distant future whether or not there is a need for addi ­ tional office space, Mr. Chairman. MR. CHAIRMAN: The hour is 4:30. We are interrupt­ ing proceeding s for Private Membe rs' Hour. The comm ittee we reconvene at 8 o'clock. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - FINANCE MR. CHAIRMAN, Jerry T. Storie (Flin Flon): The Comm ittee of Supply will come to order. I di rect the mem bers attention to page 55 of the Estima tes boo­ klet.

The items to be consid ered are under the Department of Fin ance. Begin with Item No. 1., Gen­ eral Admin istration 1 (a), Min ister's Salary. The Honourable Mini ster of Fi nance. TABLING OF DOCUMENT HON. VIC SCHROEDER (Rossmere): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to take this opportun ity to make some brief introductory comments on the Fin ance Estima tes. To assist members in their review of the Estima tes I am pleased to table a detailed expen diture and program in formation supplement prepared by the department.

Thi s supplementary information is being presented in line with recom mendations of the aud itors and is ai med at providing members with more detailed information formerly obtaina ble only through questions. It is hoped that this may enable the members to deal with the Estima tes more expedi­ tiously than has sometimes been possible in the past. The supplement which is entitled, Ill ustration of Supplementary In formation for Leg islative Review is organi zed into three parts.

The first part provides an overview of the department's financial and personnel requirements for '82-83 and highligh ts chan ges from the previous year. The second part provides program desc riptions and detailed analysis of budgetary requirements. Part three provides five year historical comparisons. I should note that this supplement has been pro- 2159

Tuesday, 4 May, 1982 duced on a trial basis to assess its merits and to illustrate the type of material which could in future years be provided as a matter of course. I believe that the provision of this more detailed information, both program and financial, represents a helpful step for­ ward in fulfilling the in formation needs of the Legisla­ ture and thus in creasing the acc ountabilit y of the department and of the govern ment. I would welcome feedback from the mem bers on the usefulness of this supplement as well as suggestions for improvements for future years.

Turning to this year's Estima tes themselves, I can advise that the organization of the Department of Finance is unchan ged from last year. The Estima tes include a total of 338.32 staff years; made up of 325.36 permanent and 12.48 term. This represents an increase of 4.36 authorized staff years from '81-82. Members will probably be aware of two sign ificant chang es in the senior management of the department. First, I'm pleased to note the Mr. Bill Fraser was appoi nted in October of 1981 to fill the position of Com ptroller, which had been vacant for some time. Mr.

Fraser's appoi ntment will be of considerable importance in conti nuin g efforts to improve financial management throughout the government. Secondly , I'm pleased to advise mem bers that Mr. Art Roberts, formerly the Chie f of the department,s Taxation Division was promoted to the position of Assistant Deputy Min ister in that division earlier this year. Mr. Roberts succeeds Charles Perry, who has retired following a di sti nguis hed career in the department. Perhaps I should comment briefly at this point on the Treasury Board and its relation ship to the department.

There are now seven Min isters on the Treasury Board with the Attorney-General serving as Chair man. The Deputy Mi nister of Finance, Mr. Cha­ rles Curtis, contin ues to act as Secretary to the board and regular Department of Fina nce personnel have been providing staff support. For this reason separate expenditure authority has not been requested for the Treasury Board for '82-83.

Further background on the functions and responsibil ities of the Treasury Board and the department as they pertain to the govern­ ment's central management system can be found in the 1980-81 Report of the Provincial Aud itor, specifi­ cally on pages 18 through 24. I won't spend time here deal ing with the various departmental expenditur e figures since they are covered in detail in the supplementary material. As we go through the Estima tes members will probably want to refer to

part 2. of the supplement headed Detailed Fina ncial In formation, which as I noted earlier pro­ vides substantial information on each of the divisions. Thank you. I thought I had already asked for the supplement to be tabled, but if I hadn't then I will do so now. SUPPLY - FINANCE Cont'd MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Memb er for Turtle Mountai n. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, I' m pleased to see that the Min ister is tabling the supplementary information.

It's somethin g that I belie ve that I had agreed to dur- ing the Publi c Accou nts over a year ago that one or two departments try and provide this additional information in order that we would n't have to spend so much time on detail in the Estimates review. I'm pleased to see that he has carried through on that.

My only comment would be that I wish it had been distributed a day or two in advance, in order that we might have had an opportun ity to look at it and judge whether or not, well just how useful it would be in the review of the Esti mates and perhaps wou ld prevent the necessity of asking some questions. I know that the Min ister is interested in moving along through his Estima tes rather quickly sinc e he has to bring down the Budget within the next few days and I doubt that it's going to be a terribly popular docu ment, Mr.

Chairman, so I expect he wants to deal with this whil e he still has substantial credibility left. Mr. Chairman, we'll go through a few detailed ques­ tions. I hope to deal with this with as little detail as I can because there are a number of general areas of policy that we would lik e to deal with, but not having looked at the document yet, perhaps the Minis ter could advise me in the area of - well maybe I should ask the Min ister first, Mr.

Chairman, how he would prefer to deal with these Estimates; whether he wants to have a broad discussion in the area of General Admin istration or whether he prefers to move through on a line-by-line basis? MR. SCHROEDER: I suppose my preference would be that we go through on a line-by-line basis and then, of course, in certain areas there obviously will be room for discussion in the various departments of the department, and we could then wind up under Mi nis­ ter's Salary with the usual debate. MR. RANSOM: That's fine, Mr. Chairman, we'll attempt to deal with it in that way.

I don't have a great deal to say in the area of General Admin istration at the moment, because it would be repetitive to go over some of the points that I had made in the In terim Supply Debate, primarily in the debate of In terim Supply, where we had expressed some concern about the hand ling of some of the figures coming out of Fi nance in terms of the public presentation of them. We may, ind eed, return to that from time to tim e in the detailed discussion.

We also had an opportunity to have some discus­ sion during Public Accounts of some of the policy issues, we may return to some extent to those , but we'll try and avoid repetition on that if we can. 2160 Mr. Chairman, we could move to a question that I have on Item 1.(

b) then, which would be what accounts for the rather substantial increase in the Salaries area of 1.(b)( 1) . MR. SCHROEDER: Yes, Mr. Chairman MR. CHAIRMAN: At this point it would be approp­ riate if the Min ister would like to bring in some departmental officials. MR. SCHROEDER: I'd love to. They're on their way in, as I understand it. The member is referring to the increase from $156,400 to $262,500.00. For (1), there is an increase

Tuesday, 4 May, 1982 staff person; that is, we've hired an Executive Director of In formation Management at a salary of $51, 000.00. As well, there is payment of the Special Assistant shown for $30,000.00. I believe last year that was shown as a contract expense, $33,000 last year to a company that contracted those particular services - Jo hn Burns. That was the majority of the increase. There is also one in crease in staff person, an Admini s­ trative Secretary for $12,500.00. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Chairman, perhaps the Min ister could tell us a little bit about what the Executive Di rec­ tor of In formation Management does, and perhaps if he would identify I believe he said that there were 4.3-some extra staff man years in the department, perhaps if he would just identify where all those are, then it'll avoid the necessity of asking as we go through line-by- line. MR. SCHR OEDER: Yes, Mr. Chairman, the Director of In formation Mana gement is reviewing the use of comp uters and comp uter system for in formation gathering in all areas of the government. I'll get more information to the mem ber on that.

There was, I recall, a substantial press release issued when she was hired. The name of the indi vidual is Zorianna Hyworon. She comes highl y qualified for that position, and I'll get more information for the member on that. It looks like it'll be a minu te or so, before we get the rest of the information. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Chai rman, I see in looking at the document of supplement ary information that Sche­ dule 7 perhaps gi ves some in dication of where the extra staff occur. It may be then just a question of what they do.

Just to follow up on the Di rector of In formation Management, does she have a close working relation­ ship with Man itoba Data Services, for instance? Is she the contact point for the government in their dealings with MOS? MR. SCHR OED ER: She will be the contact person with Man itoba Data Servi ces and she will be providin g recom mendations to departments, with respect to the type of eq uip ment and services that ought to be pro­ vided by them in order to have a co-ordinated set of government equipment throughout. MR. RANSOM: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Min ister would care to comment on how the arrangement is working with the Chairman of Treasury Board being the Min ister responsible for another government. I know we had tha t arrangement for a while when we were in government. I'm wondering how satisfactory he finds that and if they expect there would be some chang e in the structure of Treasury Board and how it operates.

Is there any in dication; any intention to go back to the old system that was in place a few years ago of Manag eme nt Committee and Planning and Priorities, or is it the Minis ter's intention to con tinu e on with a simil ar type of Treasury Board structure to what is now in existence? MR. SCHROEDER: For now we have no intent ion of changing the system. In terms of the system of having 2161 a Chai rman who is other than the Fi nance Min ister there are obvious duplications that arise as a result of that.

The Attorney-General is required to look at large volume s of paper that have probably come across my desk as well and it would appear that what happens is that - and for good logical reason - the two people most lik ely to be closely involved with the Treasury Board meetings at every meeting would be the Cha irman and myself. I would expect that at some point in the future the Chai rmansh ip of Treasury Board would be transferred back so that the Fina nce Mini ster would be the Chair man agai n.

It does allow me some time that I wouldn't otherwise have, but I think that the current Chairman is required to spend an awful lot of extra time as a result of that. MR. CH AI RMAN: 1.(b) (1) -pa ss; 1.(b)

(2) Other Expen di tures-pass; Item 1.(

c) Ad min istration: 1.(c )

(1) Admin istrative Services-pass; 1.(c )( 2) Admin istrative Policy Branch, 1.(c) (2) (

a) Salaries­ pass; 1.(c) (2) (

b) Other Expenditures-pass; 1.(c) (2)(

c) In surance Premiums-pass; 1.(

d) Special Studie s­ pass. Tha t comple tes the items under General Admin istration. Continuin g to Item No. 2. Treasury Division, 2.(

a) Salaries. MR. RANSOM: Mr. Chairman, I wonder if it's the intention of the Mi nister to make a few comme nts by way of int roduction in each of these areas that we move through. It might give us some indic ation of policy chang es, that sort of thing. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Min ister. MR. SCHROEDER: Mr. Chairman, with respect to the Treasury Division, I can say first of all that there are no contem plated policy changes.

The Treasury Division is responsible for capital financing of the government and its agencies, issuing of provinc ial securities, long-term investments for the government and its agencies, servicing the provincial debt, cash flow prediction and management of government money, authorizing all provincial bank accounts, maint enance of government banking relations, monitoring foreign exchange and investments markets, and managing the operations of the Man itoba school capital financ­ ing authority, and the Man itoba hospital capital financing authority.

I suppose I might say that in this area one of the concerns we would have over the next year or maybe even a longer period of time is the practical unavaila­ bility of large sums of money on the markets. That just seems to be a fact of life today. On that topic just this morning we had confirmation of an item that we kn ew was corning. The Alberta Government has now been put in a position where it's no lon ger able to lend out money from the Heritage Fund to other provinces, so that will be one source that has been shut out to us. That means looking for money elsewhere agai n.

In the last number of years there has been far more money borrowed by Canadian governments and cor­ porations than there has been availa ble in the country and that is one of the problems that we have, there­ fore, we do have to look to other markets for funds. I should say that, as the Member for Turtle Moun-

Tuesday, 4 May, 1982 lain well knows, it's a very capable group of dedi cated career civil servants who are operating the branch and we are relying substantially on their opin ions with respect to how we go about fulfilling our capital requirements. MR. RANS OM: Mr. Chairman, last year in the discus­ sion of the Estimates there was a considerable number of questions asked concern ing the loan that our gov­ ernme nt had taken from the Heritage Fund at that ti me. The gist of the questioning from the former Mem ber for St.

Johns and for the Mem ber for Lac du Bon net seem to be that really that Heritage Fund money belonged partly to the people of Mani toba, that therefore the government should have been able to drive a much better deal than they actually did in fundin g that money. I'm wondering, Mr.

Chairman, if the Min ister when he concluded a loan, I think $75 mi llion with the Heritage Fund, whether he was able to pursue that line of reasoning with the Heritage Fund people in Alberta to convi nce them that really some of that money belonged to the people of Man itoba as the Honourable Memb er for Lac du Bonnet and the Memb er for St. Johns indic ated. Was he therefore able to get a rate that was better than the, I believe, AAA rating that we were able to get. MR. SCHROEDER: Well, Mr.

Chairman, I suppose if we used the argument that part of that money was ours in the first place it would have been easier for me and easier for the former Minis ter of Fi nance to nego­ tiate a lower rate if part of it was in our pocket before we started the negotiations. Regrettably, it wasn't, and therefore we weren't in a position to be able to negotia te a better rate.

Although we may have some questions about whether one province should get such a large proportion of the benefit of natural resources that are Canadia n natural resources is one question, but onc e the money is in the hands of a particu lar provincial government and we are the bor­ rowers then, of course, we are in a position where we're going to have to accept their terms or not take the money. Their terms did, as the member ind icates, provide us with funds as though we had a AAA rating.

In addition to that, of course, with a loan from the Heritage Fund we were in a position where we did not have to pay any fees on the loan. Of course, that happened in the pre vious loans as well, so to that extent we were much happier to be borrowing from that fund than from other sources. MR. RANS OM: Mr. Chairman, a question concern ing the borrowing requirements. Last year in the Budget, I believe it was estima ted that the government would require some $250 million from public market sour­ ces.

It strikes me that si nce that time there has been substantially more than $250 million borrowed from public market sources. I wonder if the Min ister would care to advise the comm ittee just what has taken place there. I believe that we borrowed some 150 milli on in U.S. last Ju ne and there has been a Heritage Loan and a Swiss Loan and another 200 million U.S. prior to the end of the fiscal year in 1981. I wonder if the Min ister could advise the com mittee on what's happening there. MR. SCHROED ER: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, the Budget Estima te last year indi cated cash requirement of 365 milli on and I am just assuming that 115 million of that would have been or expected to come fro