MG-8048 Fourth Session • Thirty-Fifth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS {HANSARD) 42 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Denis C. Rocan Speaker VOL. XLII No. 96 • 1 :30 p.m., WEDN ESDAY, JULY 7, 19 93 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLAT IVE ASSEM BLY Thirty-Fifth Legislature Members, Constituencies and Political Affiliation NAME ALCOCK, Reg ASHTON, Steve BARRETT, Becky CARSTAIRS, Sharon CERILLI, Marianne CHOM IAK, Dave CUMM INGS, Glen, Hon. DACQUAY, Louise DE RKACH, Leonard, Hon. DEWAR, Gregory DOER, Gary DOWNEY, James, Hon. DRIE DG ER, Albert, Hon. DUCHARME, Gerry, Hon. EDWARDS, Paul ENNS, Harry, Hon. ERNST, Jim , Hon. EVANS, Clif EVANS, Leon ard S. FILMON, Gary, Hon. FINDLAY, Glen, Hon. FRIESEN, Jean GAUDRY, Neil GIL LESHAM MER, Harold, Hon. GR AY, Avis HELWER, Edward R.

HICKES, George LAM OUREUX, Kevin LATH LIN, Oscar LAURENDEAU, Marcel MALOWAY, Jim MANNESS, Clayton, Hon. MARTINDALE, Doug McAL PINE, Gerry McCRAE, James, Hon. MciNTOSH, Linda, Hon. MI TCHELSON, Bonnie, Hon. ORCHARD, Donald, Hon. PALLISTER, Brian PENNER, Jack PLOHMAN, John PRAZNIK, Darren, Hon. REID , Daryl REIMER, Jack RENDER, Shirley ROCAN, Denis, Hon. ROSE, Bob SANTOS, Conrad STEFANSON, Eric , Hon. STOR IE, Jerry SVEINSON, Ben VODREY, Rosemary, Hon. WASYL YCIA-LEIS, Judy WOWC HUK, Rosann Vacant Vacant Vacant CONSTIITU ENCY Osbornet Thompson Wellingt,on River Hetights Radisson Kildonan Ste.

RO!;e Seine River Roblin-Ftussell Selkirk Concordia Arthur- Virden Stein bac:h Riel St. Jame1s LakesidEt Charleswood Interlake Brandon East Tuxedo Springfie•ld Wolseley St. Boniface Mi nnedosa Crescentwood Gimli Point Douglas Inkster The Pas St. NorbE�rt Elm wood Morris Burrows Sturgeon Creek Brandon West Assini boiia River Ea:st Pembina Portage Ia Prairie Emer son Dauphin Lac du Bonnet Transcona Niakwa St. Vital Gladstone Turtle Mountain Broadway Kirkfield Park Flin Flon La Verendrye Fort Garry St. Johm• Swan River Rossmere Rupertsland The Maples PARTY.

Liberal NDP NDP Liberal NDP NDP PC PC PC NDP NDP PC PC PC Liberal PC PC NDP NDP PC PC NDP Liberal PC Liberal PC NDP Liberal NDP PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC PC PC NDP PC NDP PC PC NDP NDP

5196 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Wednesday, July 7, 19 93 The House met at 1 :30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS PRESENTING PETITIONS Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selki rk) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petiti on of David Ca rr, Lou is e Tetrault, Carmelle Tetrault and others requesting the Mi nis ter of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider rest oring the Children's Dental Program to the level it was prior to the '93-94 budget. * * * Ms. Marianne Cerl lll (Radisson): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Karen Rayter, Susan Bush, Lynne Cantor and others requesting the Minis ter of Family Services (Mr.

Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding for the Student Social Allowances Program. Mr. Conrad Santos (Broadway): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Bertha Rogowski, Jennifer Senenko, Marguerite How and others requesting the Minis ter of Family Services (Mr. Gillesham mer) to cons ider restoring funding of the Student Social Allowances Program. Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Gail Joh nst on, Virginia Sny der, Wayne Hughes and ot hers requesting the Minister of Family Services (Mr.

Gilleshammer ) to consk:ler resto ring funding of the Student Social Allowances Program. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of Nola McBurney, Pat Osmond, Errol Harris and others requesting the Mi nister of Family Services (Mr. Gilleshammer) to consider restoring funding to the Student Social Allowances Program. READING AND RECEIVING PETITIONS Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Dewar). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave).

Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk (William Remnant): The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS there is a very serious solvent abuse problem in northern Manitoba; and WHERE AS according to the RCM P over 10 0 crimes in Thompson alone in 19 92 were linked to solvent abuse; and WHERE AS there are no facilities to deal with solvent abuse victims in northern Manitoba; and WHERE AS for over three years, the provincial government failed to proclaim the private member's anti-sn iff bill passed by the Legislature and is now proposing to criminalize minors buying solvents even though there are no t reatment facilities in northern Manitoba; and WHER EAS for nine years, the 25 Chiefs who comprise the Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak, supported by medical officials , police and the area Member of Parliament, ha ve proposed a pi lot treatm ent project known as the Native Youth Medicine Lodge; and WHERE AS su ccessive federal Mi nis ters of Health have failed to respond to this issue with a commitment; and WHERE AS the Manitoba provincial government has a responsibility to ensure t hat there is adequate treatment for solvent abuse.

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legisla tive Assem bly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Premier to consider making as a major priority, the estab lishment of a solvent abuse treatment facility in northern Manitoba. Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Lat hlin). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House and complies with the rules (by leave). Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Cierk; The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS there is a very serious solvent abuse problem in northern Manitoba; and

5197 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA July 7, 1993 WHERE AS according to the RCMP over 1 00 crimes in Thompson alone in 19 92 were linked to solvent abuse; and WHERE AS there are no facilities to deal with solvent abuse victims in northern Manitoba; and WHERE AS for over three years, the provincial government failed to proclaim the private member's anti-sniff bill passed by the Legisla ture and is now proposing to crimina lize minors buying solvents even though there are no treatment facilities in northern Manitoba; and WHERE AS for nine years, the 25 Chiefs who comprise the Manitoba Keewatinowi Okimakanak, supported by medical officials, police and the area Mem ber of Parliam ent, have proposed a pilo t tre atm ent project known as the Native Youth Medicine Lod ge; and WHERE AS successive federal Mini sters of Health have failed to respond to this issue with a commitment; and WHERE AS the Manitoba provincial government has a responsibility to ensure that there is adequate treatment for solvent abuse.

WHER EFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Legis lative Ass embly of Manit oba may be pleased to request the Premier to consider making as a major priority, the est ablishment of a solvent abuse treatment facility in northern Manitoba. * (1 335) *** Mr. Speaker: I have reviewed the petition of the honourable member (Mr. Chomiak). It complies with the privileges and the practices of the House, and complies with the rules. Is it the will of the House to have the petition read? [agreed] Mr.

Clerk: The petition of the undersigned citizens of the province of Manitoba humbly sheweth that: WHERE AS Manitoba has the highest rate of child poverty in the country; and WHERE AS over 55,000 children depend upon the Children's Dental Program; and WHERE AS several studies have pointed out the cost savings of preventative and treatment health care programs such as the Chi ldren's Dental Program; and WHERE AS the Children's Dental Program has been in effect for 17 yea rs and has been recognized as extremely cost-effective and critical for many families in isolated communities; and WHERE AS the provincial government did not consult the users of the program or the providers before announcing plans to eliminate 44 of the 49 dent ists, nurses and assis tants pro viding this serviice; and WHER EAS preventative health care is an essential component of health care reform .

WHEREFORE your petitioners humbly pray that the Le gisla tive Asse mbly of Manitoba may be pleased to request the Mi nister of Health (Mr. Orchard) consider restoring the Children's Dental Prog1ram to the level it was prior to the 19 93-94 bud�ret. PRESENTING REPORTS BY ST.ANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES Mr. Bob Rose (C hairperson of the Standing Corr1m lttee on Law Amendments) : Mr. Speaker, I be�r to present the Fourth Report of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments. Mr. Clerk (Wil liam Remnant): Your Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendments presents the following as its Fourth Report.

Your committee met on Monday, July 5, 19 93, at 9 a.r n. and on Tuesday, July 6, 19 93, at 9 a.m. in Room 255 of the Legisla tive Building to consider bills 1referred. Your committee heard representation on Bill 16 , The Public Schools Amendment Act ; Loi modifiant Ia Lo,i sur les ecoles publiques, as follows: Ms. Betty Green - Lakeshore School Division Mr. David Turner - Mani toba Teachers' Society Ms. Gail Watson - Manitoba Association of School Trustees Ms. Joan Seller - Canadian Union of Public Employees, Manitoba Ms.

MaryAnn Mihyc huk - Winnipeg School Division No. 1 Your committee has considered: Biii 16- The Public Schools Amendment Act; Loi modiifiant Ia

Loi sur les ecoles publiques and has ag reed to report the same without amendment. AU: of which is respectfully submitted.

July 7, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 5198 Mr. Rose: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the hon our able member for St. No rber t (Mr. Laurendeau), that the report of the com mittee be received. Motion agreed to. Mr. Jack Reimer (Chairperson of the Standing Commit tee on Economic Developme nt) : Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the Seventh Report of the St anding Committee on Economic Development. Mr. Clerk: Your Sta nding Comm ittee on Economic Development presents the following as its Seventh Report.

Your committee met on Tuesday, June 15 , 19 93, at 10 a.m . in Room 255 and Tuesday, July 6, 19 93, at 9 a.m . in Room 254 of the Legisla tive Building to consider the Annual Report of Manitoba Mineral Resources Ltd. for the year ended December 31 , 19 92. Mr. Jim Clarke, chairperson, and Mr. Jan Haugh, president, provided such in form ation as was requested with respect to the Annual Report and business of Manitoba Mi neral Resources Ltd. Your com mittee has considered the Annual Report of Manitoba Mineral Resources Ltd . for the year ended December 31 , 19 92, and has adopted the same as presented.

All of which is respectfully submitted. Mr. Reimer: I move, seconded by the honourable member for St. Norbert (Mr. Laurendeau), that the report of the committee be received. Motion agreed to. * (1 340) TABLING OF REPORTS Hon. Rosemary Vodrey (Minis ter of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to table the Annual Report of the Teachers' Retirement Allowances Fund Board for 19 92. Hon. James McCrae (Minis ter of Justice and Attorney General): Mr.

Speaker, I am tablin g today the Twenty-second Annual Report of the Law Reform Commis sion of Manitoba, and the Seventh Annual Report of The Manitoba Law Foundation. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 55- The Legislative Assembly Amendment and Consequential Amendm ents Act Hon. Cl ayton Manness (Minis ter of Finance): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minis ter of Justice (Mr. McCrae), that Bill 55, The Legis lative Ass embly Ame ndmen t and Conse quential Amendments Act (L oi mo difiant Ia

Loi sur I' Ass em blee legi slative et ap portant des modifications correlatives a une autre loi) , be introduced and the same now be received and read a first time. His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor, having been advised of the contents of this bill, recommends it to the House. I would like to table the message. Motion agreed to. ORAL QUESTION PERIOD APM Management Consultants Contract App roval Mr. Gary Doer (Leader of the Oppositio n): Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey). Mr.

Speaker, today, evidence is being produced by nurses from Minneapolis from hospitals that had util ized Connie Curran, the multimill ion-dollar Amer ican consu ltant the Conser vatives in Manitoba and now in Alberta are so wont to use. They are talking about the fact that their inspection of the contract here and their review of other contracts across the Un ited States indicate that this consu ltant utilizes a cookie-cutter approach to health care reform, which must be the reason why the Conservatives in Manitoba hired this person at that exorbitant rate.

They have gone on to say that results of the, quote, slash-and-burn policies of Connie Curran have reduced patient care, reduced patient care to even a system in the Uni ted States, which has tremendous pressure on its health care syst em. I would like to know from the Deputy Premier why the Premier (Mr. Filmon) of this province had three different departments approve this contract-o ne, the Treasury Board, two, the Lotte ries department with the Lotte ries minister, and, three, the Minister of Health.

5199 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA July 7, 1993 Who was protecting th e people of Manitoba when the cabinet and the Premier approved this contract? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): Mr. Speaker, yes, I understand the Manitoba Nurses' Union did a journey to Minneapolis to find these two individual nurses to ask them to come to Manitoba to share, I would have to presume, the union view of a reorganization that may or may not have been as they have indicated in two respective hospitals. Mr.

Speaker, I am rather appreciative of the fact that they have been commenting on at least one of the public airwaves, because I think Manitobans will be interested in hearing what they have to say. I know that given the right to know, that a number of people belie ve is app ropria te in toda y' s environment. possibly the other side of the story or the other information that no doubt is part of their concerns will be shared, possibly from the management of those two hospitals.

I have come to learn, and I know my honourable friend the New Democrat also knows this, that for every story there is often more than what is sta ted, another side, another perspective, and, of course, that will be most informative when that right to know is exercised for Manitobans. Mr. Doer: Mr.

Speaker, I am sure the managers of hospitals who hired this person would have a rather simi lar approach as the Mi nister of Health, making bad decisions and defending them day after day after day, because whom we trust are the people at the bedside who are working with the patients in Mani toba and working with the patients in Minneapolis. Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Deputy Premier (Mr. Downey): We have heard day after day the Mi nister of Health defend the poor decision he made to hire this U.S. consultant for Canadian hospitals and the Manitoba health care syste m.

We know that three different departments had to be invo lved in appro ving this contract, Lotte ries, Health and the Treasury Board. I would like to know why cabinet itself approved this contract, Mr. Speaker, when, according to the nurses today, the only thing that was changed with the contract in Mani toba from the contract in Minn eapolis was they could change the symbol. They changed the symbol of the contract for the U.S. consultant. I would like to know why they approved it, and I would like to know from the head of government, rather than the Mini ster of Health' s defensive answers. • (1 �145) Mr.

Orchard: Mr. Speaker, do you know that during the Esti mates process this year, at approximately 2:30 on Monday afternoon, I tabled the contracts with St. Boniface and with Health Sciences Centre? I put on the record-and I will do it again today if my honourable friend the New Democratic Leader would care for me to do so. I invited members of the New Democratic Party-pa rticularly the critic who seems to be unable to tell us what New Democrats would do should they be governing the prov1ince of Manitoba.

I did that very deliberately so my honourable friends could take that evening from eight o'clock on to discuss those co ntracts and their implications, could take Tuesday next, Thursday next, even this past Monday to discuss those. But you ll(now what, Sir? The Committee of Estimates in H9alth concluded its deliberation at 10 to five with not one question on those contracts coming from the NDP .

Of course, today, when the Manitoba Nurses' Union has managed to find two people on a journey down to Mi nneapolis who say this is not appropriate, I expect that, because the Manitoba Nurses' Union has been consistently against this contract, as have the NDP. I have a responsibility to assure that health care needs are met in the province of Manitoba, and this is part of that process supp orted by those two hospitals, their management and their boards. Mr. IOoer: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) this question, because three different departm ents in gov ernment had to approve this contract, Treasury Board, Lotte ries and Health. The Premier is the chair of all of those departme nts through cabinet, and he had to approve this American consultant coming up to Manitoba costing us $3.9 million. I would like to ask the Premier, would he now, in light of the fact -[interjection) The member for Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallister), if they will not give you any questions to ask, I wish you would be quiet.

July 7, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MAN ITOBA 5200 Mr. Speaker, the Mi nister of Health has consistently stated that Connie Curran, through her contracts , will allow nurses to spend more time with patients. Nurses who have been involved and who have been through the Connie Curran process in the United States have said very clearly they do not have more time to sp end with patients because there are many fewer nurses after Connie Curran has finished with her slash-and-burn policy.

I would like the Premier to now say why he approved this contract, and would he agree to join many Manitobans who want to cancel this contract with the American consultant? We do not want to Americanize our health care syste m, Mr. Speaker. We want to reform it the Canadian way, not the American way. • (1 350) Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I am quite amused with my honourable friend the New Democratic Leader because absent today is the member for Brandon East (Mr. Leonard Evans), who wanted us to Americanize mammography in the province of Manitoba, quoting stati stics from America. Now, Mr.

Speaker- Point of Order Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Just for the benefit of the honour able mi nis ter and indeed for all honourable members, we do not make any sort of reflection on the fact whether a member is here or not. *** Mr. Orchard: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I apologiz e for that reference, but there is not a consi ste ncy with the New Democrats, is the point I am trying to make. Now, Mr. Speaker, the reason we made the decision, knowing that this kind of reaction would naturally flow from the New Democrats , was because the senior management of both hospitals, both St.

Boniface and Health Sciences Centre and their respective boards, encouraged government to be a partner in the engagement of this consultant, to brin g together expertise , knowledge and to process change which will help them meet two agendas-maintain quality and volume of health care in their respective institutions and recognize tha t we are still oper ating in the province of Manitoba and the cou ntr y of Ca nada with signi ficant bor rowed mo ney tha t we can not continue to do.

So the patient was at the centre of this, as in all of our reform, to assure that the changes we make allow us to maintain for years in the future the abilit y to deliver needed health care services in the most equitable and economic fashion possible, with the patients' service to be at the centre of all changes, Sir, not as my honourable friend alleges. APM Management Consultants Justification Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): The Minister of Health (Mr. Orchar d), his usual consistent self, refused to answer all three questions, as did the Premier, who refused to answer those questions .

Perhaps he will answer this questi on. What kind of sick priorities does this government have when they can pay $3.9 million, plus $800,000, to a U.S. consultant and the same week slash programs like making people with ostom ies pay for their ostomy supplies, slashing the guts out of the Home Care Program, making people pay for gauze and for bandages, et cetera? How does he justify those kinds of priorities? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr.

Speaker, it is interesting for me, as somebody who speaks with leaders across the country and has just had an opportunity to meet with New Democratic Premiers from Saskatchewan and British Columbia and Liberal Premiers from New Brunswick and other provinces, to find that they, with the responsibilit y of public office, have to do thing s that are dramatic-­ Saskatchewan closing more than 50 hospitals, closing Shaughnessy Hospital right in Vancouver, dramatically reducing budgets in Ontario, in New Brunswick, in Newfoundland, where they cannot be irresponsible.

They have taken the position that in order to preserve medicare, we are going to have to dramatically change it, otherwise we cannot afford it. That means sav ing money. Saving mo ney means in the long run fewer people. That means fewer people working in health care in Ontari o, fewer people working in health care in New Brunswick, in Newfoundland and so on. There is no magic solution. You cannot keep it going if everybody wants more money and more jobs in health care. You cannot do it. Only the irresponsibility of New Democrats in the Manitoba

5201 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA July 7, 1993 Legislature will be the ones who will say that you can do that. Mr. Speaker, they go out day after day and tell people they can have all of those thin gs. No government in this country, no New Democratic govern ment, no Li beral gove rnment and no Conse rvative government can continue to spend the amount of money we have been spending on health care. It is as simple as that. So you have to change it.

You have to reform it and you have to make changes that people like the New Democrats here in this Legislature can use for cheap political points, but the fact of the matter is it has to be done. It has to be done with a plan, with a program, with competent people to look at it, and that is exactly what the Minis ter of Health (Mr . Orchard) is doing with his department. APM Management Consultants Cost-saving Target Mr. Dave Chomlak (KIIdonan): Mr. Speaker, my supplementary is to the Premier (Mr. Filmon), Mr. Speaker.

The highest paid person in health care today is Connie Curran at $3.9 mi llion plus $80 0, 000 expenses. You could start with her, Mr. Premier. My supplementary question for the Premier is, why did this Premier allow a contract to be signed that has a clause in it that says any savings entered and made by the hospitals- there are clauses in this contract-sav ings made by the hospitals of St. Boniface and Health Sciences Centre will go into Connie Curran's kitty for her be nefit and her payment? Hon. Donald Orchard (Min ister of Health): Mr.

Speaker, aga in, the member for Kildonan is inaccurate in what he says, but that is not unusual. My honourable friend the member for Kildonan has the contract in his hands. • (1 355) Point of Order Mr. Chomlak: On a point of order, from his seat, the Premier said I was a liar. Can the Premier please point out for us where we are lying in terms of this contract? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier) : Mr. Speaker, on the same point of order, clearly when he says that the savings go to Connie Curran, that is an untruth, and that is what the member does all the time, puts falsehoods on the record. Mr. Speaker: Order, please.

On the point of order raised by the honourable member for Kildonan, the Chair did not hear the remarks the honourable member for Kildonan alleges the honourable First Mi nister has made. The honourable First Min ister had an opportunity to correct the record, and from the Chair's point of view,, I cannot rule on a matter that I did not hear. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable Minister of Health, to finish with his response. Mr. Or chard: Mr. Speaker, the member for Kildcman doth protest too much, because the member for Kildonan said the savin gs at St. Boniface Hospital go to Connie Curran.

That is the most absolute falsehood I have ever heard said in this House. It is not, not, not the truth. My honourable friend the New Democrat is not guide•d by necessarily always indicating what is in the c•ontract. The contract states clearly that there will be a target of savings at St. Boniface General Hospital of $20 million. That is a minimum savings to be achieved. Mr.

Speaker, those savings will be based from the 19 92-93 base- line year so that we have a methcx! of calculating, because should they not be accomplished, then the holdback unique to this cont ract- contrary to a sta tement made by the Lea der of the Opposition (Mr. Doer ) , the uniqueness is to hold back funds and not pay the contract unless those deliverables are there; i.e., a $20-m illion saving to the hosp ital and to the taxpayers of Manitoba, not to Connie Curran, as my honourable friend the member for Kildonan falsely allegets. Mr. C:homlak: Mr. Speaker, can the Premier (Mr.

Filmon) therefore answer the final supplementary? Can the Premier indicate why

Section 3(1 )(

c) of the cctntract states all changes in the cost structure since the '92-93 revenue base will be eligible to count toward the target, and therefore to Connie Currem's cuts and therefore to her salary, Mr. Speal<er? Mr. Or chard: Mr. Speaker, there is an old saying that e•ventually if you shine the light on a certain animal, they will eventually scurry, and we just put the li!ght on the member for Kildonan, who two

July 7, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA 5202 questions ago stood up in this House and said the sa vin gs on the Connie Curran sugg ested restructurin g process will go to Connie Curran. Now, my honourable friend has finally told the truth, that in fact the savings will go toward the target of $20 million from the 19 92 base line, and that is consis tent at Health Sciences Centre as well, so that we have an ability as government to measure the effectiveness of the restructurin g within those hospitals.

My friend the New Democrat will also quote that both hospitals, the consultant Connie Curran and the government are committed to maintaining the quality and level of service in those hospitals while achieving these kinds of savings -exactly where we should be, protecting health care, protecti ng the taxp ayers of Man itoba and makin g sure tha t medicare is there for the people. Federated Co-oper atives Ltd. Impact Saskatchewan Legislation Mr. Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition) : My question is for the Mi nister of Finance.

Just a couple of weeks ago in the Legisla ture of Saskat chewan, a bill was passed, Bill 90, which essentially robbed the Federated Co-ops of their investment in the New Grade facility in Regina. One might ask, Mr. Speaker, what is the direct connection with Manitoba? Mr. Sp eaker, the connec tion , the very real connection to Manitoba is that the 85,000 co-op members in Manitoba received in 19 92, $7.9 million in direct cash payments as a result of profits in the co-op movement. Those are directly related in a large way to the refinery and its operations in Regina.

My specific question to the minister: Given that the Deloitte and Touche state ment on the proposal and the ramifications of what the government of Saskatchewan is doing says that if Federated Co-oper atives Limi ted accepts the cu rrent proposal-and this was the proposal that Mr. Estey set forward, which was nowhere near as bad as the legis lation -it could jeo pardize the long- term viability of this organization. Now, Mr.

Speaker, what discussions has this minister had with the Province of Saskatc hewan to tell them and to ask them to do what is just, do what is honourable and not rob the co-op movement in western Canada of these revenues? * (1 400) Hon. Eric Stefanson (Min ister of Industry, Trade and Tourism): Mr. Speaker, within the last two weeks, we have had a delegation to our caucus from Federated Co-op, obtaining first-hand views of members of the co-op here in Manitoba. We have obviously been receivin g information on this particular issue.

Certai nly it is our fundamental belief that this issue should be resolved on the basis of negotiation and not on the basis of basically expropriation in terms of what we are seeing in the legisla tion in Saskat chewan. So we are very supportive of the Manitoba co-ope ratives that are directly affected by this move.

The member says some $8 million or $9 million of dividends flow into the economy of Manitoba, to Manitoba co-ops, but the best thing they can do, that they are doing in Manitoba and they are doing in Saskatc hewan, is to moun t the sup port of individual citizens of both of those provinces, and I see that the co-ope rative movement in Manitoba is doing just that with full-page advertisements and so on to encourage and inform Manitobans of this very important issue. That is the best thing they could be doing, Mr. Speaker. Federated Co-ope ratives Ltd. Impact Saskatchewan Legislation Mr.

Paul Edwards (Leader of the Second Opposition) : Mr. Speaker, I had the opportuni ty this morning to meet with representatives from the co-op movement. I heard the Leader of the New Democratic Party (Mr. Doer) here indicate they are in negotiations and the minister says that. Negotiations have broken off, I am advised. In fact, the legislation has been passed. It has not been proclaimed, but negotiations have broken off. Mr. Speak er, this legis lation has not been proclaimed. It will have a devastati ng effect to the co-op movement and the thousands of Manitobans who rely on those revenues.

My question for the Premier is: Has he had a Pr emier -t o -Pr emier discussion on this very im portant issu e, gi ven his answer to the last questions in which he indicated he meets with them on a regular basis? Has he had that discussion?

5203 LEG ISlATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA July 7, 1993 Has he told Mr. Rom anow that this is an unconscionable act? Hon. Gary Fllmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I might say that in discussion with the caucus and the represent atives of the co-op movement in Manitoba, we were not asked to do that. Mr. Edwards: Mr. Speaker, the mini ste r has indicated that the co-op movement is asking for thousands of Manitobans to protest this to the Saskatchewan government.

I would suggest that the most influential person to do that would be the Premier of this province, to make that direct contact and talk to him about the $8 million a year which is going to be lost from our economy, from the rural economy, primarily. Mr. Speaker, will the Premier reconsider his decision not to make tha t direct contact and perhaps put his wonderful relationship with these Premiers at risk on this impo rtant issue, and stand up for rural Manitobans who get those millions of dollars each year? Mr. Fllmon: Mr.

Speaker, I know the Leader of the Liberal Party is not used to consulting with people and liste ning to people who are affected and follo wing their advice, but we will follow their advice, and we will be guided by what they prefer us to do. Tertiary Care Program Consolidation Ms. Jud y Wasylycla-Lels (St. Joh ns) : Mr. Speaker, the minis ter earlier asked for some advice. Our first advice would be to start putting some order in the chaos. Mr. Speaker, there are so many studies and reviews and task forces out there, we have lost count and Manitobans are concerned. We have Connie Curran.

We have the Urban Hospital Council with 40-some committees. We have the advisory netwo rk. We have the imm inent or soo n-to-be-re leased Emer gency Services Task Force, the soon-to-be-released obstetrics task force report, and now we have the tertiary care program consolidation, otherwise known as the Bell-Wade analytic review of tertiary teaching hospitals.

I want to ask the Minister of Health if he would give us some understanding of where all these different studies fit, beginning by telling us, what is the sta tus of this ter tiary care pr ogram consolidation which makes big recommendations, and where does it fit? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Health): Mr. SpEiaker, that information was provided to the New Democra ts in Esti mates. Now, I realize my honourable friend is no longer the critic, but she might consult with her colleague the member for Kilclonan (Mr. Chomiak), wherein he posed that question and the answer was given.

I do not know wh•�ther they have those disc ussions or not. MaJrbe they do not consult with one another. Mr. Speaker, I will stand by the process of consultation, of wide representati on, of involving expertise in Manitoba to help us guide change, cha1nge that everybody acknowledges must happen or we lose medicare. I am willing to take our process of wide consultation, study by experts, assiistance by experts, to guide us in our policy and pro1�ram services and changes, so that we can prel;erve and protect medicare for the citizens of Manitoba for 19 90 and beyond into the year 2000 and the next century. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: Mr. Speaker, we would not be asking these questions if we had ever been able to get any answers in Estimates. I want to ask the Minis ter of Health: Who will be maf\ing the decision around these very serious recommendations in this tertiary care program review, pa rti cularly the recomm endation to con1solidate all cardiac surgery at one hospital, the Health Sciences Centre? Mr. Orchard : Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend comm ented about never gi ving an swers in Estim ates this year. My honourable friend would not know because my honou rable friend never attended Estimates this year.

Point of Order Ms. Wasylycla-Lels: Mr. Speaker, sur ely the Minister of Health is out of order for commenting on atte ndance during Estimates when he knows full well that I have been in Estimates on numerous occasions. I have also followed every word he has uttered in Estimates, because I would certainly not want to miss the thrill of listening and hearing- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. On the point of order rais,ed, the honourable member does not have a point of order. It is clearly a dispute over the facts . I have already advised the honourable minister as t1:> the presence or the absence of members.

July 7, 1993 LEGIS LATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 5204 *** Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend makes an interesting point. If she did hear every word, then why did she pose the question to which I have already given the answer in Estimates? My honourable friend cannot have it both ways lik e New Democrats try to have in opposition versus New Democrats in government. An Honourable Member: You do not have it right yet. That is your problem. Mr. Orchard: Mr. Speaker, I did not know cement had such loud voices. Mr.

Speaker, my honourable friend the ex-critic of Health for the New Democrats is now saying that it is wrong to have our two tea ching hospitals collaborate on program consolidation, wherein we will have one program head, one pro gram leadership to avoid duplication across the syste m, to foster co-operation across the syst em, to use the resources of both teaching hospitals in a more equitab le and cost-effective fashion to deliver more, not less care and to save the taxpayers money. My honourable friend says we should not do that. Well, I disagree with her. Ms.

Wasylycla -Lels: These studies cost hundreds of millions of dollars in addition to the $3.9 million for Connie Curran. [interjection] You start adding them up. Mr . Speaker : Order, please. I remind the honour able memb er for St. Johns, put your question through the Chair. Ms.

Wasylycla-Lels: Maybe if I zero in on a specific issue out of this report, I would like to ask the Min ister of Health, how does the tertiary care program review, which does make recommenda­ tions on trauma and tr auma centres, fit with the report we hear is to be released any day from Moe Lerner on emergency services, which is going to be apparently recommending the closure, despite all recommendations to the contrary, of the emer­ gency ward at Miser icordia Hospital between the hours of midnight and eight in the morning? Mr. Orchard: Mr.

Speaker, again, you know, there will probably be a quotation somewhere that these studies are costing hundreds of millions of dollars, because those were the first words to exit my honour able friend's mouth and then quick ly retracted because she knew how out of line her comments were. That is how these sorts of things get going with irresponsible comments like that, not intentional, but sort of routine. Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend, in part, has an answer to her questi on.

As has been my system since we started investigating and bringing experts to advise us on system-wide change, I do not comment on interim reports. I only comment when I have received final reports and government has decided whether to implement in part or in whole or not at all the recommendations that are fort hcoming. My honourable friend said that we are expecting a report shortly from Dr. Moe Lerne r. That is correct. That is information I gave to the New Democrats in the process of Esti mates.

When I receive that report, we understand its reco mmendations and we decide on what is usable, doable, and achievable for the betterment of the health ca re syste m, I will make those announcements with full justification of the reasons why, Sir. * (1 41 0) Justice System Maintenance Payment Enforcement Ms. Becky Barrett (Welling ton) : Mr. Speaker, a study recently released confirmed what many women in Manitoba already know, that the justice system in this province very often does not work for th em. I would like to share and ask a question of the Mini ster of Justice on a parti cular issue.

There is a woman in the pr ovince of Mani toba whose ex-hu sband has not paid court-ordered su pport payments. She went to court, using the justice sys tem, as was her right. A warrant was issued for his arres t in Janu ary of 19 93. To date , th at warrant, six months later, has not been acted on. I would like to ask the Minis ter of Justice if he can provide for us, and this woman in partic ular, if he can explain why the nonenforcement of these warrants is allowed to go on for over six months, as in this partic ular woman's situation? Hon .

James McCrae (Minis ter of Justice and Attorney General): I would certainly atte mpt to get whatever information I could relative to this particular case to the honourable member. Our Maintenance Enforce ment Program was pioneer ed righ t here in Manitoba when Ger ry Mercier was the Attorney General of Manitoba. We

5205 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA July 7, 1993 have done our best over the years to resource that service for people, so women do not have to go without the dollars that are due and owing to th em. If the ho nourable member wants to give me further information, I will certainly try to track down whatever information is available. Ms.

Barrett: Can the Mini ster of Justice explain why, and what policy is being followed in this type of incident, when, according to The Provincial Police Act, he is, and I am quoting: • ... to monitor police services for the purpose of ensuring that adequate and effective policing is maintained both municipally and provincially."? Why does this woman have to wait six months for a warrant that was duly issued to be served on her husband, and what is she supposed to do, and the women like her, in the meantime? Mr.

McC rae: If the honour able member has in formation that mi gh t be help ful as to the whereabouts of the subject of this warrant, let us know and we will alert the police departments immediately. Ms. Barrett: Mr. Speaker, the particular case in question has been answered. Letters have gone forward to the Mi nister of Justice in this case. The Minis ter of Justice knows the warrant was issued. Thewoman-- Mr. Speaker: Question, please. Ms.

Barrett: Can the Mi nister of Justice explain to the House why, given the fact that this woman has aler ted the police depar tm ent as to her ex-husb and's address and current place of employment, the warrant is still not issued? How long do these women have to wait? When the minister specifically- Mr. Speaker : Order, pleas e. The honourable member has put her question. Mr . McCra e: Somet imes, Mr. Sp eaker, a last-known address is tracked down, and no one is found there. That may well be the case here.

As I say to the honourable member, i would be happy to ascertain if the whereabouts of this person is known, and if that is the case, then I would certainly be asking police departments why indeed they have not moved sooner to take action on the warrant in question. But the fact the honourable member has an address does not necessarily mean we are able to find the person at that address, but, as I say, I will mak4� whatever information I have available to the honc•urable member. Home Care Program Housekeeping Services Ms. Avis Gray (Crescentw ood): Mr.

Speaker, I would refer the Mini ster of Health to his health reform Action Plan, where he states under the first principle that "every major action and policy of gove·rnment will be evaluated in terms of its impliGations for the health of Manitobans." Mr. Speaker, we have heard recently of the Mi nister of Health's shift in focus with homemaking services no longer being available for a number of individuals in the city of Winnipeg and throughout the province. This is a major action which does deserve analysis and evaluation.

Th·� Min is ter of Health did not answer the question in Estimates about tabling any type of analy:sis, and I would ask the minister today, and give him an opportunity in Question Period, if he could in fact table any analysis or any evaluation of how this sh ift in Home Care policy is actually cost-e,ffective and efficacious. Hon. Donald Orchard (Mini ster of Health): Mr. Speaker, my honourable friend is saying a shift in policy. My honourable friend, if she is going to use that te•rminology, ought to quantify when that shift commenced, and that was in 19 85 under the NDP led by Howard Pawley.

Now what gives me confidence, Sir, that this shift of having the housecleaning and laundry no longer a routine part of the Home Care service provision, is the confidence from our Home Care staff that since its inception in 19 85, when seniors have been purchasing those services and not being provided free of charge by Home Care, there has not been a compr·omise of those individual seniors so asked to pay fetr it sinc e 19 85 nor of their abili ty to live indepetndently.

That change because of Support Services to Seniors brought in by Howard Pawley and the NDP has worked and worked to the extent that we have continued the program, Sir. Alternative Services Ms. A"ls Gray (Crescentwood): If the Minister of Health is so confident, then I would wonder why Home Care staff thr ougho ut this province are

July 7, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA 5206 calling MLAs and expressing extreme concern about this change in policy. I would ask the Min ister of Health: Can he tell this House, for those individuals who cannot afford any type of private service and are in need of a homemaking service, what provisions will be made to ensure that they are able to access the service if they cannot afford it? Hon. Donald Orchard (Mini ster of Health): Mr.

Speaker, I have indicated that, since 19 85, if those circums tances were evident by the Conti nuing Care staff who make those assessm ents, the service wou ld be continued to be provided at taxpayers' expense. It is a judgment call because in the Home Care Program , we do not have a means test for accessing the program. If my honourable friend the Liberal is suggesting we means-test those clients for Home Care, then I wish she would be mo re direct and make that suggestion up front instead of sideways, Sir. Ms. Gray: Mr. Speaker, the minister is wrong in that answer. Min ister's Commun ication Strategy Ms.

Avis Gray (Cresc entwood ): With the third question to the minis ter, will he tell this House why there has been lit tle, if no com munication to organizations, groups and individuals affected by this sh ift in policy? In fact, when the Manitoba League and people are phoning the Home Care department and asking what exactly the policy is and who will be affected, they do not get an answer. Will the Mi nister of Health clarify this chaos, apparently, in the Home Care Program? Hon. Donald Orchard (Minis ter of Health): Mr. Speaker, I understand there is concern out there.

Naturally, there would be concern when some of the public presentation of information leads one to believe that the entire Home Care Program is being cancelled. [interjection] My honour able friend the memb er for Crescentwood said, clarify it, and I have, Sir, by saying we intend to spend $68 million on Home Care this year, not cancel the program, as some would believe. There was another rumour out there, that this homemaking service was discontinued as of July 1. That, Sir, was false. It is September 3. We are doing the assessments from now until then.

There was another false rumour out there, that there would be 1, 500 layoffs in the Home Care syst em. That was not correct either, Sir. Now, what is happening is exactly what has happened since 19 85 when the Howard Pawley administrati on brought in a policy, a new program called Support Services to Seniors, and the same assessment process will take place by the same professionals, guided by the same ability to make decisions on service as before. Let me assure my honour able friend tha t Manitobans will be well served by $68 million-- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. * (1 420) Roblin Day Nursery Operating Grant Mr.

Doug Martindale (Bu rrows): Mr. Speaker, prior to 19 91 , the Mi nis ter of Fam ily Services provided a grant to cover the cost of auditing financial state ments of nur sery schoo ls. Reorganization in 19 91 resulted in changes, with the minister providing an operating grant that was supposed to cover all of the expenses. Now an audit is required if the grant is more than $5,000. Can the Minis ter of Family Services tell us how this policy applied to the Roblin day nursery whose grant was less than $5,000 in '91 -92, excluding the children with disabilities program grant? Hon.

Harold Gll leshammer (Minis ter of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, in 19 91 , there was a change in some of the daycare funding, where we had a myriad of grants that were given to daycares in prior years . At that tim e, the gr ants were collapsed into one grant to daycare. At the same time, there was a dramatic increase in the subsidies that were paid to daycares. As a result of that, daycares, in their funding, had to make determinations on expenses from within the monies they were accessing.

They access money through the grant syste m, through the subsidy syste m and also through the parent fees which they collect from people who are using the daycare. Mr. Martindale: Mr. Speaker, there seems to be a particular problem at the Roblin day nursery. I would lik e to ask th e min ister if he will investigate, since they have been following the department's policies and since they have written

5207 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA July 7, 1993 to him and he has not replied, and the MLA for that area has promised to help his constituents but has not. Will the minis ter look into it and report back to me? Mr. Gllleshammer: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is falling into the same trap as some of his colleagues. He is not giving an accurate picture of what has happened. I have responded to the daycare in question. They have since written to me again, and we are reviewing the situation, but I did give them a response to the particular question.

I would say to the honourable member, I hope this is just a small slip in emulating some of his colleagues and that he will not make these mistakes in the future. Swan River Area Flooding Problems Ms . Rosann Wow chuk (Swan Ri ver ) : Mr. Speaker, this morning I had the opportunity to tour the Swan River flood area, and I appreciate the government taking me out there to see the area. However, there is some very serious damage, and they are going to need an awful lot of assistance in the area.

The question I have is: Is this government willing to make a commitment that they are going to look at long-term solutions to this problem, parti cularly at the government drain that is the cause of the problem in the Mi nitonas area? Will they make a commitment to look at the headwater storage plan that was in place prior to this government coming into place ? Will they look at some lon g-term solutions to flooding problems in the area? Hon. Harry En ns (M in ister of Natural Resources): Mr.

Speaker, some 40 years ago, this city of Winnipeg, along with many parts of the Red River Valley, suffered very serious flood damages. At that time, the government of the day had the politic al will and the supp ort of this Legisla ture to com mi t the kinds of funds to resolving those issues. Mr. Speaker, without question, if there was a political will exhibited the same as was exhibited to resolve the 19 50 flooding problems of Winnipeg, the answer is a positive yes. Mr. Speaker, my experience has been just the opposite. We cannot even think about resolving those issues because of the political climate today.

Mr. Speaker: Time for Oral Ques tions has expired. Speaker's Rulings Mr. :Speaker: I have a ruling for the House. (int erjection] Orde r, please . The honou rable Mi nister of Natu ral Resou rces (Mr. Enns) , you had an oppc,rtu nity to answer the qu esti on. Question Period time has expired. Now we are going to do our ruling. On June 23, 19 93, during debate on Bill 32, The Social Allowances Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur l'aide sociale, the honourable Mi nister of Heallth (Mr. Orchard) rose on a point of order regar din g words spok en by the honour able member for Burrows (Mr. Martin dale). I took the matter under advisement in order to review Hansard to determine what was said. I believe the words spoken by the honour able member for Burrows to which the Min ister of Health took ·�xception were: " ... because this govern­ ment does not believe in child care anyway. Many of the ministers of cabinet do not believe in it, and we know that because daycare centre directors are meeting with the member for Morris (M r.

Manness) and the member for Pembina (Mr. Orchard), and we hear what they say in these meetings." The' Minis ter of Health did not have a point of order. What we have is a disput e over the facts. The honourable member for Burrows stated that the Ministers of Health and of Finance were not supportive of daycare. The Mini ster of Health took exception to that. I w<>uld like to remind members that this is a place in which controversy is to be expected, and with it a limited use of discourteous or unflattering words and phrases will occur from time to time.

But I am sure we will get along much better if clearly unparliamentary words and phrases are avoided by all members. Therefore, I would like to suggest to all honourable members that they should choose their lsLnguage with care. *** Mr. Speaker: At this time I am going to do another ruling. On July 6, 19 93, the honour able member for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux), the House leader for the second oppositio n party, rose on a matter of privi lege and moved that this House refer the

July 7, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 5208 events which occurred during the meeting of the standing Comm ittee of Supply of July 5, 19 93, which were contrary to Rule 64.1 (9)( c) , to the Standing Committee on Privileges and Elections. I am rul ing tha t the matte r raised by the honourable member for Inkster is one of order, not of privilege. The question of whether the rules of the House were violated is a matter of order.

Further, I would remind the House of my ruling of June 2, 19 89, when events which occurred during a meeting of a committee were raised in the House as an alleged matter of privilege. I ruled at that ti me that the opinion of the Speaker cannot be sought in the House about any matter arising in a comm ittee and that it is not competent for the Speaker to exercise proc edural control over committ ees. According to our rules, questions of order in the Committee of Supply must be settled in the Committee of Supply. The proper course of action for the honourable member for Inkster (Mr.

Lamoureux) would have been to raise the matter at the earliest opportun ity in committ ee. I understand the member has done just that and the Chair has taken the matter under advisement. I am sure the Chairperson will rule on the matter very soon. Comm ittee Changes Mr. George Hlckes (Point Dou glas) : I move, seconded by the member for Wellingto n (Ms. Barrett) , tha t the com position of the Standing Commit tee on Law Amendments be amended as follows: Burrows (Mr. Marti ndale) for Thompson (Mr. Ashton); Wolseley (Ms. Friesen) for St. Johns (Ms. Wasylycia-Leis) for Thursday, July 8, 19 93, for 9a .m.

Motion agreed to. Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Bon iface): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments be amended as follows: St. Boniface (Mr. Gaudry) for Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux). I mo ve, seconded by the memb er for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray), that the composition of the Standing Comm ittee on Public Accounts be amended as follows: St. James (Mr. Edwards) for Osborne (Mr. Alcock). I move, seconded by the memb er for Crescentwood (Ms.

Gray), that the composition of the Standing Commit tee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources be amended as follows: Inkster (Mr. Lamoureux) for River Heights (Mrs. Carsta irs) . Motions agreed to. Mr. Jack Reimer (Niakwa): Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), that the composition of the Standing Committee on Law Amendments for Wednesday, July 7, at 7 p.m. be amended as follows: Arthur­ Virden (Mr. Downey) for Ass ini boia (Mrs . Mcin to sh ); Brandon West (Mr. McCrae) for La Verendrye (Mr. Sveinson) ; Niakwa (Mr. Reimer) for Riel (Mr. Ducharme). Also, Mr .

Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for St. Vital (Mrs. Render), tha t the composition of the Standing Committee on Public Utilities and Natural Resources for Wednesday, July 7, at 7 p.m. be amended as follows: Seine River (Mrs. Dacquay) for Morris (Mr. Manness) ; Portage Ia Prairie (Mr. Pallister) for River East (Mrs. Mitche lson) ; Ste. Rose (Mr. Cumm ings) for Sturgeon Creek (Mr. McAlpine). Motions agreed to. House Business Hon. Clayton Manness (Government House Leader): Mr.

Speaker, on House business before Or ders of the Day, I would lik e to make the following announcements with respect to House business. The Standing Comm ittee on Public Accounts scheduled for tomorrow morning is now cancelled. The Standing Comm ittee on Law Amendments whic h will be meeting tomor row at 9 a.m . to consider Bill 32, I am calling that committee to also sit tom orrow at 7 p.m. to further consider Bill 32. Mr. Speaker, I am giving notice to the House that if there are a signi ficant number of bills passed today, that I will be calling another committee to hear those bills tomorrow evening. Mr.

Speaker, would you call bills in the following order: Bill 41 , Bill 37, Bills 10 ,3 3 and 2 at this point. ORDERS OF THE DAY DEBATE ON SECO ND READINGS Bill 41- The Provincial Parks and Consequential Amend ments Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed mo tion of the honou rable Minis ter of Natural Resources (Mr.

5209 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA July 7, 1993 Enn s) , Bill 41 , The Pr o vincial Pa rks and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi concernant les pares provi nciaux et apportant des modifications correlatives a d'autres lois, stand ing in the name of the honourable member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk). An Honourable Member: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave that the matter remain stand ing? [agreed] Bill 37- The Man itoba Public Insurance Corporation Amendment and Consequential Amend ments Act * (1 430) Mr.

Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minis ter responsible for the Manitoba Public Insurance Corporation (Mr. Cummings), Bill 37, The Manitoba Public Insur ance Corporation Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia Societe d'assurance pub lique du Manitoba et app ortant des modifications correlatives a d'autres lois, standing in the name of the honour able member for Transcona (Mr. Reid). An Honourable Member: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Stand? Is ther e leave that that matter remain st anding? [agreed] 8111 10- The Farm Lands Ownership Amendment and Consequential Amendm ents Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed mo tion of the honourable Minis ter of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay), Bill 10 , The Farm Lands Ownership Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur Ia propriete agricola et apportant des modifications correlatives a d'autres lois, standing in the name of the honour able memb er for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray). Stand? Some Honourable Members : No. Mr. Speaker: No? Leave is denied. Mr. Nell Gaudry (St. Boniface): Mr. Speaker, the member for Crescentwood (Ms. Gray) adjourned debate so that I could speak on this bill. Mr. Speaker: I have given the honourable member for St. Boniface the floor. Mr. Gaudry: Mr. Speaker, it is with great pleasure that I stand to speak today on Bill 10 , The Farm Landis Ownership Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act.

I will be the only speaker in our cauc:us to speak on this bill , so it can go to commit tee. Mr. Speaker, given today's economic climate and ·the difficulties many Mani toba farmers are faced with, amendments that are designed to impr ove the effici enc y of the oper ation of government and decrease the costs that citizens of this province have to incur in terms of dealing with this

part icular act and The Revenue Act are amendments worthy of our support. ThE! proposed legislation changes the definition of family farm corpora tion from requiring that two-th irds of the majority of issued and out standing shares are to be legally and beneficially owned by farmers. Mr. Speaker, I realize, like the member for Swan River (Ms. Wowchuk) indic ated in her speaking to this bill, that many farmers in the past have voiced their concerns regarding farmland, the peoplt� wanting the land to stay held by the family farms rather than by outside, foreign ownership.

Correct me if I am wrong in saying this, but it seems to me that the change in this legislation will still requin� that a farmer owns a majority of the shares. Mr. Speaker, it appears that the act is being amended to meet with current practice with respect to the remission of land transfer taxes for family farm corporations. We have to move with the times, and I feel the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Findlay) and his department are moving in that directi on. The deleting of the board' s requirement of presenting separate annual reports of its activities is in my view a good move.

How cost-effective this will be• remains to be seen. Since the board's activitit�s are already included in the department's annual report, what purpose does it really have to be pre!�ented separately? Mr. Speaker, I would like to raise a concern with resp ec:t to the recent developme nt, where the Ma nitoba Agricultural Credit Cor poration was prompted to reduce young farmers' rebates and introduce loan application fees.

As of April 1, in the press release, th e rebate available to farmers betwee•n the ages of 18 and 39 has been set at 2 percent of the fi rst $1 00,000 borr owed to a maximum of $1 0,000 for the first five years of the loan . My concern with this is that it is working against family farms staying in the family. The

July 7, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 5210 decrease is not encouraging our young farmers to stay and manage the family farm. Why was it not possible to keep the rebate at 4 percent on the first $1 00,000, as it was in the past? Mr. Speaker, we look forward to having this bill go to comm ittee, and we reserve our questions and concerns for further debate when it goes to committee, shortly, I hope. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question?

The question before the House is second reading of Bill 1 0, The Farm lands Ownership Amendment and Consequential Amendments Act; loi modifiant Ia loi su r Ia propriete agricole et apportant des modifications correlatives a d'autres lois. Is it the pleasure of the Hous e to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: That is agreed and so ordered. Bill 33- The Provincial Rai lways and Consequential Amend ments Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honou rable Minis ter of High ways and Trans­ portation (Mr.

Driedger), Bill 33, The Provincial Railways and Consequential Amendments Act; loi concer nant les chemins de fer pro vinciaux et apportant des modifications correlatives a d'autres lois, standing in the name of the honour able member for Transcona (Mr. Reid), who has 15 minutes remaining. Mr. Daryl Reid (Transcona): I am pleased to continue my com ments where I had left off yesterday regarding this legislation enabling the establ ishment of short-line railways in the province of Manitoba.

I did not have the opportun ity yesterday to put all of my comments on the record with respect to the concerns that we had with this legislation, some of the things we think may be omitted through this bill and the impact it is going to have upon not only the service to rural com munities, but for the safe operation and efficient operation of railways in the province.

Yesterday, I talked about the Class 1 railways not taking advantage of th e full 4 percent line abandonment, and I suspect the reason they did not take advantage of that is because ther e seemed to be a move or a trend within the country to move toward the establishment of short-line railway legisla tion in the various provinces of Canada. The minister has ind icated that in the notes he has provided for th is bill. I would like to thank the minister while I am on that topic for the information he has provided with respect to his bill.

It is always helpful when we can understand more clearly the reason and the need for any type of legislation. I thank the minister once again for providing that explanation. With this bill, the questions we will have and that we will raise, in addition to th e ones we mentioned yesterday, deal with certai n aspects of this bill relating to whether or not the legislation will adopt certain policies that have been a part of federal legislation through various federal government agencies. When I talk about those agencies, Mr. Speaker, we talk about the National Transportation Agency.

There are also other acts, as well, including the Safety Act , the Railway Act, the Dangerous Goods Act and the Transportation Safety Board, and the powers they have over safe railway operati ons.

Now, with this legislation here that the minister has proposed, through Bill 33, it makes no mention of whether or not the minister's department is going to accept the rulings of the federal agencies themselves, and whether or not because these agencies have a certain amount of expertise they have developed over the years and obviously have qualified staff working for them , whether or not the minister is going to contract for those services through those federal government departments and agencies, or whether the minister himself is going to bring in his own staf fing in his own department, qualified personnel who will be able to provide certain levels of inspections, not only on the ro lling stock equipment, but also on the trackage road bed.

We have seen in this province here in Manitoba, in St. Lazare and at Oakville just recently, where it appears to be that faulty equipment was the cause of those accidents, particularly at Oakville, where it is my understanding that the axle on the lead locomotive broke and caused a derailment which caused the evacuation of that community. Now it is impor tant to ha ve these sa fet y ins pections done on a regular basis for this equipment because, while these short-l ine railway operators may not be operating at the speeds that

521 1 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMB LY OF MAN ITOBA July 7, 1993 the Class 1 main-line railways would operate at, they nevertheles s pass through many small co mmunities thr oug hout Mani toba. If they are hauling any kind of com modities other than the gr ain prod ucts, whet her they be dangerous co mmodities like anhydrous ammo nia or other supplies that may be used, oil tank cars, et cetera, if the equipment that is doing the trans portat ion of these goods is not in proper operating condition or are operating in an unsafe condition, it could put thes.g communities at risk.

So I think it is im portant that the mi nister's department have qualified staff, either available to undertake the necessary inspections , whether they be transferred back as a cost to the short-line operators themselves or undertaken as part of the minister's department's delivery of servic&-that it is necessary for those ins pections to be undertaken. So I hope the minister is going to have the necessary insp ectors in place to look after the safety inspections.

If the minister does not have qualified staff doing those safety inspections, what I see happening is, should the short-line operators have a ruling that goes contrary to their wishes, for those who are going to establish short-line railways, they will have then, obviously, the legal right to challenge any of those decisions that may be made by unqualified personnel.

So I think it is important that we have those who have the quali fica tions and the experience in rail line railway operations providing that level of inspection . * (1 440) What this legis lation, of course, gives where there is a dispute in some of the decisions that are made, there is also the opportuni ty, not for just the decisio ns that are ma de by the mi ni ster's department, but if there is a dispute between the shipper and the carrier, there is a provision that allows for an arbitrator to be appointed. Of course, the two parties would then pick up the cost for that.

I believe that is an oppor tu nity for a dis put e set tlement mechanism that will lead towards a conclusion or resolution of any disputes that may arise. That is one of the good portions of the legislation . Some of the other concerns relating to short-line railways-the United States has a great deal of experience dealing with shor t- line railways.

It seems to be predominant in the United States that short lines are esta blishing, and it seems to be going a ste p back ward, becau se it is my unde1rstanding, although I was not alive at the time, that :short lines were what brought this country together through the est ablishment of many short lines being amalgamated, particularly in Canadian National's case, where Canadian National was forme'd out of a great number of smaller railways that then formed the transcontinental railway, CN Rail. ThE! concern I hav&-a nd this is pointed out in the federal railroad administration insp ections from 19 90.

They do a railroads safety report to the U.S. Congress. It indicates, and I will quote from the document respecting many railroads not ins pected. Th e quote go es: The presence of sho rt -lin e railways, which have had consistently higher accid1:1nt and injury rates than the industry as a whole, is growing. So there is a concern even in the United States that if we do not have qualified inspectors to inspect the equipment and the trackage and the structures, there will be a tendency towards higher accident rates and injury rates for any of the employees or any o·f the people dealing with the railways.

So I think it is im portant that thtt minister have the necessary qualified insp ectors to perform those inspec:tions, people who have the knowledge and the expertise and the skills. One1 of the other problems that I see with this legislation is tha t there does not seem to be any policy directive that this legislation is intended for. There is no stated policy goal.

I think even looking at the National Transportation Act that, while it is quite ,extensive in its document, it does have a stated policy goal right at the beginning of it, and I would like to see this bill have some kind of a stated policy goal and its intent. That, I think, would lead to a better understanding for the members of the public that are going to utilize that service, should it become a reality in the province.

Another point that this legisla tion does not have that the National Transportation Act has is that this legisla tion does not have the oppor tu nit y for appeals to cabine t or to the Lieut ena nt­ Governor-in-Council who in that case would be the PremiEir (Mr. Rim on) of this province. The National Transportation Act allows for railways to appeal to in time's of dispute; they can appeal to the federal cabinet any decisions that are made by the agency. Now, this may be something that the minister might

July 7, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 5212 wish to look at that will give, where disputes arise in the province-and it wants to give the Premier the opportunity to provide some direction or some guidance, something that would be in the best interests of the province, to give the cabinet the opportunity to make some kind of rulings on those provisions as is afforded to the federal government.

This legislation has been brough t about, of course, I believe, through deregulation, and it has created a great deal of problems throughout the country, as we have seen in the various transportation industry sectors. This bill attempts to make the best out of a bad situa t ion. It is something that I believe would probably, some­ where down the road, be necessary, and that is, I believe, why the minister has come forward with this legislation at this time.

It would be interesting to know that when we get into committee, whether or not the minister will be providing for the examples of people that may be, or companies that will be, willing to come forward to look at taking over short-line operati ons, and what areas of the pro vince will be covered by that short-line legislati on. The minister has said in his explanatory notes on this legislation that he is looking to protect rail jobs in the province as one of the main points.

With that, while it is a commendable position to take to protect rail jobs, it is unfortunate that those rail jobs could not have been protected within the structures of the Class 1 railways as they curr ently exist. Those jobs have historically been relatively well compensated, and it would be unfortunate if we see an erosion of any levels of disposable income to any employees that would not have the ability to achieve the same level of earnings through short lines, obviously, that we would have achieved through current railway employment. With those few comments, Mr.

Speaker, we look forwar d to when the ot her memb ers of the committee have had the opportunity to add their comments on this legislation, to hear members of the public who may wish to come forward and add their comments and raise any other concerns that may be on their minds as they have viewed this legislation. So I thank you for the opportunity to add my comments here. Mr. Paul Edwards (Le ader of the Seco nd Oppositi on): Mr. Speaker, it gives me pleasure to rise today to speak to Bill 33, The Provincial Railways and Consequential Amendments Act.

I want to echo some of the concerns mentioned by the critic for the New Democratic Party about the rail line abandonment generally in this country. We have had many, many discussions with the Mini ster of Highways and Transportation (Mr. Driedger) on this issue. We are somewhat, well, actually quite a bit, hampered in our ability to really do much about it, simp ly because the railways are not under our jurisdiction. The federal control over transportation does hamper our abilit y to-i nterpr ovi ncial transportation rather-deal firmly with the railways.

However, what has to be remembered is that the railways in this country are planning to abandon half of the rail lines in the country. That is an enorm ous decision on their pa rt, and it has enormous consequences for rural com munities, even urban com munities, but mo re so rural communities. It is the railways that built this country, settled the west, brought the supplies here, brought the people here, and still today, even with our highways and with our very expensive airports and airlines, which also may be gone in the near future, but even with all of those, ra11 ways ar e the link in these communities.

These communities, and I grew up in them , are built because the railway was there. I grew up in Swift Current, Saskatc hewan, which, like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of small prairie towns, midsize prairie towns, even cities, is there because the railway went through there. The railway goes through the centre of the city. Mr. Speaker, I can tell you that, even as a child, I remember that The Cana dian, the pas senger tr ain, would come through, give or take, because there was never too much assuredness as to whether it would be on time or not, but would come through approxim ately 10 p.m .

On summer evenings when I was not in school, we could stay up; we would be out for a walk. That was the thing to do. Townspeople would congregate by the rail lines to see the passenger train. Mr. Speaker, that was reality in those towns. The train was the link to the rest of the country. It was what bound those small com munities, ones like I grew up in, to the rest of the great land. There

5213 LEGISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA July 7, 1993 was sense of belonging because of that railway. We are in the process now of eradicating that link. Like so many other national institutions that have been built up over the years in this country, unique in the world many of th em, but like so many of those, we are seeing them drift into oblivion and be abandoned. That is a mistake, I think. Mr. Speaker, with respect to this particular bill, I do understand the reason why it is coming forward. It is coming forward in the hopes of salvaging some of those lines by creating the ability to have them used privately.

In principle, I do not have a problem with that, enabling the short -line operators and shipp ers to use these lines. I have some concern tha t what it really does it sort of the plays into the hands of the rail lines. It makes it easier for them to offload these rail lines. • (14 50) On the other hand, if they are going to downsize, if they are going to abandon half of the railway lines, then anything we can do to keep them being used by local, short-l ine rail operators is probably the best we can do. Mr.

Speaker, I just hope very much that we have a change of government at the federal level, because I know that will bring with it a change of philosophy about the rail lines, about these national institutions. It pains me to see millions and millions and millions of dollars that are spent in other much less important expeditions than keeping these rail lines together. I had the interesting experience of living six years in Ontario, and it was a totally different philosophy. Southern Ontario, a wonderful place, but they do not understand what railways mean to the rest of the country.

They do not understand what it means to these western communities to have the rail lines and the rail lines used, and to have not only the freight trains, but the passenger trains. They are connected. They are close to each other. They live in densely populated areas. They do not understand what those railways mean to wester n Canadians. We have to, as western Canadians, elected people, make our voices heard on these issues. I fear, for instance, that we are perhaps only a few short years away from the abandonment of the rail line to Churchill. What will happen then, Mr. Speaker?

There will never be another rail line. There will no t be another road to Chur chill. Churchill will be effectively cut off, except by air, if that rail line is let go. But that is the way our federal government is moving. That is the way, quite frankly, the Wheat Board, I think, views the rail line to Churchill. That is the way the powers that be in the grain industry appe1:u to feel about Churchill, and I do not buy it. I think it is a viable port.

I think if we had put efforts into ensuring that the natural catc hment basin of Churchill were used to ship that grain from that area through Churchill, we would have no probiEtm making it a self-sufficient port. Is it ever going to be a huge port making grain companies millions and millions of dollars? No, but it is the Canadian Wheat Board that contracts for wheat. That is a federal institu tion, and it has other thin gs than pure profit for the grain companies to think about. It slhould be thinking, Mr.

Speaker, about the need to ha ve the northern port of Chur chill main tained, and the only way to do that is to maintain that rail line. That is it. That is the only link in real terms; otherwise you have to fly there, and it will just cripple that community, and with that community, that whole region just drifts back into isolatic>n. We see that very clearly. I know some of my colleagues will be att ending the Hudson Bay Route Association meeting in Churchill at the end of this month . With great regret, I am unable to attend that. I have attended other Hudson Bay Route Association meetings.

I, unfortunately, will not be able to attend that one, but let me say here and now that I applaud the efforts of that organization to get through to the powers that bet. One of the greatest disappointments to me was CharJi,e Mayer, Member of Parliament, cabinet minis tEtr, very influential cabinet minis ter from this provi nce. Does he stand up for Churchill, Mr. Spe al (er? No. In fact , he is doing vir tually everything he can to abandon Churchill, to move this grain through Thunder Bay and Prince Rupert and Vancouver, not through Churchill.

One has to wonder what state a place lik e Churchill would be in if it were in Ontario. Let us just spec ulate that it was across the border in Ontario or Quebec, on the Hudson's Bay in one of those provinces. Do you think this port would be abandc::med the way it has, Mr. Speaker? I think not.

July 7, 19 93 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MANITOBA 5214 I think it is because no one will comprehend that we have a very fine seagoing port in a prairie province. They do not contemplate that, and they cannot comprehend it. The result is, we are seeing the consistent abandonment of that community and the rail line which is so essential a link to it. I understand the com ment s- my fri end the critic for the New Democratic Party indicates that by this enabling legislation, enabling private operators to use the abandone d rail lines, we are facilit ating the abandonment. Well, it may be a situation, Mr.

Speaker, where we simply do what we can to best use those rail lines in a situation we really cannot control. That situ ati on is these big companies are ju st abandoning the rail lines. So if we can use them and keep them used, I cannot see how that can be opposed. It is not perfect. It is not the way we would want it, but we have to do what we can, I think, to keep these rail lines used.

So, I am prepared, our party is prepared at this poin t to have this bill go to com mittee on the understanding that we want to talk at committee about the conti nuing dialogue between this minister and the rail companies, to have them understand that we are going to fight them tooth and nail every step of the way in their desire to get out of providing for rail service to this country. We always think of som e of these companies as private enterprise, and they can do what they want.

Well, everyone I think who knows their Canadian hi story knows the rail companies were given millions and millions, perhaps billions of dollars of land to make-[interjection] Twenty-five million acres, my friend indicates. I have no doubt it was at least that much. Yes, they built a rail line, but they owe us too. There was a partnership there. Mr. Sp eaker, it was not all one way. We appreciate the private monies which went into that and have gone into that, but you cannot, just when the bucks get a little less or start to run out, abandon what is a part of our heritage.

So with those comments, I want to ask the minis ter to come to the committee. It is an opportune time with this bill, I think, to com e to the com mittee with an update on his negotiations with the rail companies, what their specific plans are, what he is doing to get together with the other pro vincial Premier s and this newfound special relati onship with the federal government, because we have heard a lot about the newfound special relationship. It has not produced anything yet, but we have heard a lot about it. I would like to see it produce something. This is a good opportunity.

We have a new Transport minister, federally. I would like to know what this minister is doing, using the leverage he apparently has through the relationship between the Premier and the new Prime Mi nister, to get a commitment to rail lines in western Canada. With those co mments, I do look forward to a more thorough discussion of the implications of this bill. I also want to say that I appreciate the minis ter's providing a very detailed spread sheet. It is very useful, but it did not deal with the philosophical underpinnings of this legislation, which I would not expect it to.

We want to have that discussion at the committee about where we are going. What can we do to ensure that the rail companies, that the federal government, who have primary responsibil ity in this area, maintain their comm itm ent to a part of our life, a part of our heritage? While the dollars, the profita bility, may be lessened, may not be there any longer, it is worth it, in my view, to maintain a commitment to these essential links which bind us as a country. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Ms. Rosann Wo wchuk (Swan Ri ver) : Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the member for Broadway (Mr.

Santos) , that debate be adjourned. Motion agreed to. Bill 2- The Endan gered Species Amendment Act • (1 500) Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honour able Minis ter of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), Bill 2, The Endanger ed Species Amendment Act ; Loi modifia nt Ia

Loi sur les especes en voie de disparition, standing in the name of the honourable member for Brandon East (Mr. Evan s). Is there leave that that matter remain stand ing? Some Honour able Members: No. Mr. Speaker: No. Leave is denied. Ms. Rosann Wowc huk (Swan Ri ver) : Mr. Speaker, we are ready to send this bi ll to committee. However, I want to take the opportunity

5215 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA July 7, 1993 to add my few comments dealing on endangered species in this leg islation befor e it goes to committ ee. The Endanger ed Species Act was something that the New Democratic Party was working on. In fact, a good part of the work had been done before 19 88, before we lost government at that tim e. The go vernment took anothe r two years to do the follow-up work on The Endangered Species Act, which was introduced in 199 0.

Unfortunately, they did not do a very good job on their research, and there were flaws in the bill, and that is what makes it necessary to bring it back at this time. It is unfortunate that they did not take the time to research things properly, but that is what happens. That is why we are dealing with this bill at this time. I understand that the good part of the amendments is to bring the legislation in line with the federal legislation, the terminology the same as the federal legislation. I believe that that is a good move. I would hope that it is in line with other provinces as well.

I think that is something that we have to look at in other areas as well, that we have continuity in our legislat ion. Parti cularly when we have thing s dealing between various provinces, our language and our legis lation should be sim ilar to federal legislation to not allow for various loopholes to take place. I commend the government for bringing in those changes that will bring us in line with the federal legislation. Mr. Speaker, it is unfortunate that we have to bring in legislation to protect various species in this world, but that is the fact of life.

As people change their lifestyles, as industry progresses, as various changes take place in the world, th e mo st vulnerable are at ris k. The same thing happens within the human race. It is those, the poorest and the most vulnerable, that are at risk when we make progress-<> r progress, in some people's minds­ and the same thing happens with our natural resources, our wildlife species. Those are put at risk, and many times become almost extinct. That is why it is neces sary th at we bring in such legislation as we have here today.

As I say, I believe that it is impo rtant that we protect our species, but I also think, Mr. Speaker, not only protect, but we have to manage our resources properly and use our resources properly so that the most vulnerable are not at risk. I think that when partic ular species go on the endangered speci19s list, that has to occasionally be reviewed and checked whether it is necessary to keep them there. I want to touch on a couple of areas that relate to my constituency, particularly as it is related to this bill.

One of the areas of change that are taking place is to allow endangered species to be treated on humanitarian grounds, and I believe as well that that il� a good move, because there have been times, particularly when animals or birds have to be protec:ted or provided with some sort of treatm ent. At this point, it is illegal to protect or provide trea tment for these bir ds, and that will be recognized here. One• of the areas that has caused some concern is the amount of discretionary power that this bill gives the minister.

The minister now has the power to issue to a person a permit authorizing the person to collect or hold live members of endangered or threat1�ned species for scientific purposes or for the purpo!;e related to the protection or reintroduction of endangered species. We wonder, with that much power going to the mi ni ster, whether he will have an advisory commit tee to work along with him, or is the power strictly in the minister's hands?

The other area that is one of the difficulties is the fact that there is the ability to list endangered specie's and to provide a watch for decline, but there is no provision to provide enforcement. It does not provide for fines , and there are some other a1reas in there. Mr. Speaker, this afternoon, I raised the issue of headwater storages, and I want to relay a little bit of that story. That headwater storage seemed to cause quite a flurry on the other side of the House, and I want to tell you that all the work for this headwater storag e, all the planning, all the environmental planning has been done.

In fact, a study was done on endangered species as well, whethe•r any parti cular species would be lost if this headwater storage had been put in. Nob1xly is talking about putting up a dam that is going to change the environment, change the flora or the •9nvironment in the mountains- (interjection] The m19mber for Lac du Bonnet (Mr. Praznik) asks how you will store the headwater. I encourage him to look at the plan that was put in place, and it was approved by the environmental department and

July 7, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 5216 everyone. It was appro ved, but it was this government that refused, that pulled it off the list when they were doing negotiations with the federal government for funding. I think that the members across the way should be broad min ded enough to understand the difference between headwater storage retention areas and dams.

If they have any interest at all in com munities below the escarp ment, they will understand that this is very important, because when we have the type of runoff that we had over the last few days off the Duck Moun tain and Por cupine Moun tain, there are a tremendous number of wildlife species that could be put in danger. There is a real concern down the Duck River on spawning grounds for pickerel and other types of fish; their spawning grounds are being destroy ed. So I think there is a way to manage environment and protect those species tha t are downstream.

The members across the way seem very touchy about this whole issu e, and I guess they should be touchy, because they had the opportuni ty to deal with this matter, but they chose instead to ignore it. When they were negotiating funds with the federal government, they chose to negotiate for different areas and completely ignored the people in the Swan River constituency who, for years, have been lobbying with government, had put together many, many papers showing the benefits. There were various groups who supported this, and they had the support of the federal Member of Parliament, in fact.

But this government chose to ignore the area, and now some of the problems that we are facing could-not all of them. I can assure, Mr. Speaker, that all of the problems that we have in the Swan River constituency would not have been avoided, but at least this government could have looked at this parti cular project and could have at least lobbied the federal government. As I say, this is not a diversion of water, it is only a retention of water to keep the high flow-off. Those members across the way who are opposing this should look at that proposal.

I encourage them to recognize the value of it, because it was proven to be feasible. There was a cost-benefit there. Also, the work that was being done would not have, in the opinions of the environmental department, harmed the environm ent or harmed any of the endangered species in the area. Mr. Speaker, the other area that I want to touch on briefly, that I mentioned earlier, is, as I said, we have to manage our resources and look after the people who make a living off the resources and also whose livelihood is becoming endangered as well. When the Min ister of Natural Resources (Mr.

Enns) was in my constitu ency last January, he met with the fishermen on Lake Winnipegosis, and the fishermen there raised a very impo rtant issue with the minister and that being the problems that are caused for them by the cormorant. Mr.

Speaker, as you know, the cormorant is on the endangered species list, so that causes some concer n because although the cormorant has increased tremendously in population, the pickerel stocks, the walleye stocks have gone down tremendously and in fact in that area are becoming very close to endangered as well, as is the livelihood of these people who make a living on this lake. * (151 0) The Min ister of Natural Resources gave his commitment at that time that he would look at how we could remo ve the cormorant from the endangered species list, or what steps could be done to control, manage the birds on that lake.

I wonder whether when we have the mi nister amending the act to allow birds to be collected or captured, whether this is one of the ways that he intends to deal with the problem. I do not know that it is, but I know he has made a commitment to the people of the area to deal with their problem. So that is one of the questions that we will be asking when we come to committ ee, whether this is his way of dealing with the

part icular problem. Mr. Speaker, I know that there are people who have concerns about this legislation and will be making presentati ons. In most part, I think that the legislation is good. It is necessary that we protect those species that are in danger. We should live with our natural resources in such a way that it is a sustainable way, tha t we do not destroy any species. All species of pl ants and animals play an important role in our environment. We should be sure that all of them are protecte d, not destroyed by the activities of human beings.

So I would hope that the government would also look at ways of enforcing this legislation, but I also look forward to the committee when we can ask the

5217 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA July 7, 1993 minister further questions on how he is going to deal with some of the commitments that he made to people in the rural areas, and that we look also at how we can protect the environm ent and the resources so that the people can continue to make a living, but tha t we also do not destroy the environment for many species that are in danger. Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second reading of Bill 2, The Endangered Species Amendments Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les especes en voie de disparition. Is it the pleas ure of the House to adopt the motion? Agreed? Some Honour able Members : Agreed. Mr. Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. * * * Mr. Speaker: The honourable deputy government House leader, what are your intentions, sir? Hon. Darren Pr aznlk (Depu ty Go vernment House Leader): Mr. Speaker. I would ask if you could please call the following in order: Bills Nos. 17 , 27, 35, 26, 36, 30 and 40-if I may just have a moment.

The change I would ask then is that the bills be called: 17 , 27, 34, 35, 26, 36, 30 and 40, and there may be some further announcements or changes during the course of the session . 811 1 17 -The Crown Lands Amendment Act Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the honourable Minis ter of Natural Resources (Mr. Enns), Bill 17 , The Crown Lands Amendments Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les terres domaniales, standing in the name of the honourable member for Thomps on (Mr. Ashto n). Mr. Steve Ashton (Thomp son): This is going to be a very in- depth speech, Mr. Speaker. In fact , it may be a recor d .

I asked a question of the minister, by leave, on second reading, and I think my question and his answer will probably be longer than my speech on the bill, because he answered the questions rather well, and I would advise members, particularly from Treasury bench, to perhaps look at the minister's answers, because if we could just get answers like that in Question Perio,d, we would be extr emely happy in the opp�1itio n. But the minister asked questions in regards to the bin which does deal with the ability now to pass on environmental caveats with the disp osition of Crown land, and I think that is excellent.

I think it is somelthing that we should be looking at far more. We often talk about the environm ent in the regula tory sense, but one of the ways of maintaining our environment is through land policy, and whether that be in terms of caveats affecting ownership in this parti cular case, whether it be­ and l lmow I have had discussions with the member for The Pas (Mr. Lath lin).

I think one of the reasons for settling many of the outstanding treaty land entitlements in this province is because one of the factor:s behind the desire of aboriginal people to have those claims settled is to be able to better protect the environment in areas surrounding the traditional use of land. I want to indicate very briefly that we fully support this bin. It is a model in many ways. In fact, it is something that many people I think should look at in terms of other land. We feel that we could use our proper ty syste m to grea ter pro tect the environment through the use of caveats.

I think it is a very excellent idea that all those who are looking at the possible disp osition of property should look at, in terms of estate planning, et cetera, because particularly in our untouched areas of the province, I think it is important that we continue to have at least some land that is protected from wide-open develo,pment that is maintained in its natural state to the gr eatest extent pos sible. This kind of mechanism I think could be greatly expanded beyond the more limited focus of this bill to do a lot for the environment. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr.

Sp1eaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second reading of Bill 17 , The Crown Lands Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les terres domaniales. The House was not ready for the question . Mr. 011car Lathlln (The Pas): I just wanted to say maybe a couple of minutes on this bill, Mr. Speaker. It is a bill, of course, as the member for Thompson (Mr. Ashton) says, we are supporting. It is a type of a bill that governs a scenario where Crown lands are bE1in g sold, and those sales agr eements som eti mes contain restrictions as to how that

July 7, 1993 LEGI SLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 5218 parti cular piece of land might be developed, in order that the environment might be protect ed. Then, of course, the restriction on that land will accompany the sale. It will get transferred on to the new purchaser, the new owner of the land. Those restricti ons, as well, Mr. Speaker, will be binding on the subsequent purchaser, the subsequent owners of that land, and be registered. So this would also then , as I said, protect anybo dy, two or three owners down get that same kind of protect ion.

As the member for Thompson was saying just a while ago, when we look at Crown lands, lands that are under claim through the treaty land entitl ement process, I think this would also probably afford some sort of protection for both those First Nations as well as non-Fir st Nations people who may be purchasing Crown lands and so on. I am not going to spend my whole time on that, I am just going to conclude there and am ready for it to pass. Mr. Speaker: Is the House ready for the question? The question before the House is second reading of Bill 17 , The Crown Lands Amendment Act; Loi modifiant Ia

Loi sur les terres domaniales. Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? Some Honourable Members: Agreed. Mr. Speaker: Agreed and so ordered. Bill 27- The Environment Amendment Act

(2) Mr. Speaker: On the proposed motion of the hon our able Mi nis ter of Environm ent (Mr. Cummings), Bill 27, The Environment Amendment Act (2); Loi No.2 mo difiant Ia

Loi sur l'environnement, st anding in the name of the honourable member for Burrows (Mr. Martinda le). Stand? An Honourable Member: Stand. Mr. Speaker: Is there leave that this matter remain st anding? [agreed] • (1 520) Ms. Marianne Cerl lll {Radisson): I would like to speak on this amendment to The Environment Act which is making provisions to move in a direction to better regulate stubble burning in the province. I have mixed feelings about the legislation, and I will start off by talking about the unfortunate manner that it was brought forward.

There were a number of studies going back into the 19 80s and paper s that were developed encouraging governments to look at this issue, but there was no regulation or legis lation brought forward until we had the crisis of last year, when I am sure every member of this House, parti cularly from urban centres, had phone calls and letters, and there was a large amount of concern about the hazards from stubble burning around the province.

It is unfortunate that that is the crisis that has to occur before the government will make some attempt to deal with a situation that has been causing problems in the province for quite some time. As I said, the bill itself does some things that are extraordinary such as empowering the RCMP to enforce legislation, but then on the other hand it does some other things in this legislation that still allow stubble burning to continue which I think we will have to wait and see if there is going to be any effect from it that will deal with the situation in a positive way.

It is interes ti ng when you go back and look through the repor ts and the material that is prepared on the issue that one of the comments that has been repeated over and over again is that when a review was done at the Clean Enviro nment Commission, there was no evidence to show that there was jeopardy to health from stubble burning, and I am wondering if that is because there have been no studies done.

I would hope that we can have some kind of a serious look at what exactly is the effect, in the long term especially, of having people exposed to this kind of heavy smoke from stubble burning, particularly when you look at the kind of complaints we had from people who have asth ma and other respir atory and aller gic problems. So that is one thing I hope that will come from this.

Another issue related to that was-t do not know if it has been st udied to the ext ent tha t is warranted-the fact that the areas that are burned in the fall are going to have had a large amount of chemical herbicide, pesticide and fertilizer used in them, and I am concerned that the smok e that then is airborne could contain oth er cont amina nts besides just the carbon problem from the stubble smoke itself. (Mrs. Louise Dacquay, Deputy Speaker, in the Chair)

5219 LE GISLATIVE ASSEM BLY OF MAN ITOBA July 7, 1993 The Mini ster of Health (Mr. Orchard) poses a question, if forest fire smoke is all right, and I would say, no, that is not all right. We get the same kind of complaints and pleas for some assistance when there is forest fire smoke that comes into the city or into any kind of community area that affect these people's ability to breathe and oftentimes to see. So it is not onl y the health concerns because people have difficulty in breathing, but it is also the safety concerns in terms of tra velling on the highway.

Those all are hopefully going to be taken seriously, particularly by the Minister of Health. One of the other things that I think is important to mention is that there was a repor t that was prepared by the Department of Agriculture, I think it was back in 19 87, which still clearly states that the Depar tm ent of Agr icul tur e is opposed to this practi ce. It says here, the Manitoba Department of Agriculture has traditionally taken a stand against cont inuous and indiscr imina te burning of crop residues. That is a fairly strong state ment, and I am wondering if there has been a change in that policy.

There was a reliance on not moving towards regulation against stubble burning per se, but only to use education. The reports say that that has been successful in some cases. It is not sur prising that there would be some interest on behalf of farmers, because the other thing that this paper shows very clearly is the number of negative effects of burning of crop residue, the fact that there is a loss of nitrogen for next year's crop of up to 60 percent from burning of stu bble. When that practice continues over a 1 0- or 20-year period, it can reduce the soil's ability to supply nitrogen to crops.

This is one of the things that shows that not only is there conc�E>rn by people who- Point of Order Hon. Donald Orchard (Mi nis ter of Health): Madam Deputy Speaker, I wonder if my honourable friend could sh are with us the sou rce of that quotation that she used just recently about a 60 percent loss of nitroge n, I believe. Could she share with us the source of that statisti c, please? Madam De puty Speaker: The honour able Minis ter of Health does not have a point of order. * * * Ms.

Cerll ll: I would be pleased to tell the minister that it is the Manitoba Departm ent of Agriculture submission to the Clean Environment Commission on burning of crop residue, and I believe it is from 19 86 or '87. An H�onourable Member: Sixty percent? Ms. C:erllll: That is what it says in this report. An H1onourable Member: Of what? Ms. C:erllll : Direct loss of nitrogen for next year's crop by burning. Now, one of the concerns, also, is the fact that the straw also contributes to having the organic matter in the soil. It contributes to having proper aeration and water circulation through the soil.

There is a concern that once this organic matter in particular is eliminated that there will be used more chemical fertilizer to make up for that, which could have occu rred naturally in the soil if the crop residue was tilled in, and that would then also have an inc1reased cost to farmers. The other concern is the way that erosion will be allowed to increase once the crop residue is burnt off. This will also have an effect on the kind of runoff water from the fields taking with it also a numbe1r of nutrients and a larger amount of soil. So there will be erosion both from wind and from runoff.

The residue when it is left on the field can help trap snow which, as I mentioned, can contribute to soil moi st ure. So as you can see there are a numbe'r of very good reasons from an agricultural point c1f view for not burning stubble. I think that these would raise the question of why we are still in Manitc1ba behind other provinces in not moving ahead with trying to curt ail this practice. The other thing that is interesting in this report is ther e is a

section called "Misconcep tions Regarding Burning," and I want to read directly from the report and this

section because it says clearly that under good management heavy crop resid ue need not prevent proper seed bed pre pa1rat ion and seed place ment if pr operly chopp1 �d and spread. Long unchopped straw is more difficult to seed throu gh, and it decomposes more s:lowly than well-chopped straw . Increased emphasis on thorough chopping and spreading would reduce tillage requirements substanti ally.

July 7, 1993 LEGISL ATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 5220 So there again I think one of the reasons for jus tifying this practice has been that it makes it easier in the spring to seed the soil, and here it is shown that when there is some effort taken to work the straw thr ough, that there is actually not a harmful effect or a detriment in seeding. • (1 530) With respect to this legislation we are going to have to just wait and see on a number of the attempts that it is making to curtail this. Basically what the legislation is doing is saying that you cannot bur n at ni gh t.

It does not have any regulation on the amount of burning that can occur at other times during the day. So I think that there still could be the same net amount of burning that goes on which could have the same amount of smoke. So that is one of the concerns that I have with the legislation, is there is really no guarantee that this is going to affect the net amount of burning. The other thing tha t is not spec ified in the regulations or in the legisla tion is the weather conditions, that that is going to be left up to the department s to determine.

We are going to just have to wait and see if there is going to be in fact some more consider ation for the health of the neighbouring areas, because the regulations are quite vague when they say that there is just to be no adverse effect from the conditions created by the burning. One of the other things that the bill provides for is that there must be some more atte ntion given to then informing people about the regulations that are going to apply on a given day.

This is an area that is causing some concern because we could be setting ourselves up to have the same kind of confusion and chao s as when the ban was implem ent ed last year, because of the large amount of public pressure. This legislation allows for different areas to have different regulations applying at the same time, and there could be some confusion with that. Also, the requirement that there is incumbency on the farmer who is going to do the burning to inform them selves of the regulations for their area in that time period . That is going to be done through the phone and answering machine.

I think tha t if there are going to be a lot of changes in the regula tions for the burning allowances for that parti cular time, there could be some problems there, but again we will just have to see if that is going to work. There is some feeling that, because also there has been an effort in the past by farmers to deal with this responsibly, there will be effort made to use the system that is in place and inform themse lves of the appropriate weather conditions and allowable times for burning.

One of the other things, I think, that needs to be mentioned here is the opportunity that was missed when this crisis came to head. It is interesting, especially jus t recently after speaking with individuals in the forestry area and dealing with recycling and sustainable forestry, that there are other uses for the straw . I think it is unfortunate that there was not more effort made to try and pair up those that have the excess flax straw in particular with others who might be able to put that to good use rather than jus t having it wasted and causin g harm from burning.

I would hope that there would be some effort this year to use that straw for paper making or other uses. I think that in conclusion it is important that we be aware these kinds of issues have to be dealt with head on. The bill that is before us has most of its powers dealt with in regulations. As I understand it, these regulations were prepared with a joint committee of people from parents with children with asth ma, health profess ionals and a number of people from the Department of Agriculture and that there was an attempt for some kind of compromise.

I have some concern that the bill is basically only allowing the development of these regulations and that it gives quite a bit of power to the government and to the minister, as is occurring more and more often where the real power is only in the regulations. I am concerned that we could have a situation again where the regulations are changed quite quickly and I would jus t hope tha t the government will give due consideration to all sides of this issue and to the concerns that will, I am sure, be expressed at the committee hearings.

If they are going to make some quick changes to this legislation again, we could find ourselves in another situation this year and coming years where there is pressure placed on the government to even allow for more burning, as was the reasoning given for the excessive burning this past year. So I would just say that I am looking forward to hearing some of the presentations at the committee hearings to see if this bill is in fact going to be the

5221 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA July 7, 1993 kind of compromise bill that is going to ensure that the health of Manitobans is going to be protected and we are not going to have an unsafe situation this year again. Thank you. Ms. Rosann Wowc huk {Swan River): Madam Deputy Speaker, I rise to speak on the bill related to stubble burning.

The whole issue of burning straw or stubble became quite import ant last year when we had the unusual weather sit uation that caused a delayed harvest and left farmers in a position where there was a tremendous amount of straw on the field very late in the season and, as a result, caused a very serious problem, particularly in the city of Winnipeg and other urban centres. But that is not the first year that we have had that problem. I believe there was a few years ago where there in fact were some serious accidents when there was peat burning in the eastern part of the province. We have to be concerned.

We have to be concerned about the heal th pro blems tha t extensive burning of straw is causing. That was certainly, as I say, a problem last year when we had many people having to go to the hospital or people with asth ma having to stay in their homes for days on end until the smoke cleared.

There is also the safety factor that we have on highways when there are difficult weather situations, low pressure areas that cause the smo ke to stay very close to the ground, and I think that it is time that legislation be brought in to deal with this. * (1 540) The burning of stubble has for years been a farming practi ce. I think it was a much greater used practice years ago and it is on the decline. I know particularly in my part of the province it was not uncommon to see almost all fields burnt off 10 or 15 years ago.

However, in the last few years there has been very, very little stubble burning, and in fact last year when we did see stubble and straw being burnt it was an unus ual situation. Most farmers are changing their practices so that they do not have to burn as muc h straw . They are recognizing the value of incorporating the straw back int o the soil. However, Madam Deput y Speaker, we have to recognize that there are times, as we had last year, where there are unforeseen circum stances when there has to be that availability for farmers.

We· talk about compl etely restricting -some people say that there should not be any stubble burning or straw burning whatsoever. I am not in ag re·ement with that. I think that farmers sometimes are in a situation where they have no alternative but to dispose of the surplus by burning, and we have to leave that option open to them. It has to be done in a managed way, and that is one of thE I things that this legislation will do. It is mana!ged in other areas. I want to talk about my part of the province.

In the Pl:ukland, in the Swan River area, when you want to burn, you have to apply to the Resources office to get a permit. When you get that permit, the farmer is responsible to see that that fire is kept in conltrol. I think tha t that same practic e could be­ [interjEiction] The member across the way asks me whether my colleague agrees with me, and to a degree she does. She says that it has to be mana�Jed and we have to look at alternati ves. As I said, Madam Deputy Speaker, in parts of the provin'oe we have a permit syst em. I think that the government should have looked at this.

If a permit system works in some parts of the province-and what we do is we call up the Natural Resources office, check on whether the weather conditions are right, whether we are allowed to burn. Then a permit is issued for a couple of days when we can burn either excess straw, or also there are many times when farmers have to burn windrows if land is being cleared. So people in that part of the province have to apply lfor a permit. I would see no difficulty with people in other parts of the province applying for a permit as well. Now, some people think that that might be a great inconvenience.

I do not think it is such a great inconvenience. It would offer control. If thEI permit was issued and those people who were burning had to follow the guidelines that were put out and were responsible for the fire, then I think that would be a good idea. So I think that is one ama that should have been looked at. Madam Deputy Speaker, as I had indicated earlier, burning of stu bble was a much mo re commc•n practice years ago. People are changing their practices.

In fact, my colleague referred to a study that was done by the Depa rtm ent of Agriculture of the negative impacts of burning and the am·ount of energy, the amount of nitrogen and

July 7, 1993 LEG ISLATIVE ASSEMBL Y OF MAN ITOBA 5222 other materials and fibre that can be lost from the soil by burning. I think that farmers recognize that. They do not want to burn unless they really, really have to. I think that along with this legislation that we have here which will regulate burning, I think that the government should be also doing more research into alternate products, alternate crops that can be grown, and alternate ways of managing the residue and providing farmers with that information-and alternate uses, as my colleague had said, for straw.

You know, instead of cutting back on research, as the Department of Agriculture did, perhaps we should be doing more research into crops perhaps that have less straw. Perhaps we have to do more research into how we can grow crops without as much fertilizer as we are using right now. It is a proven fact that as you put on a lot of fertilizer, the crop ends up growing a lot more straw in it.

So perhaps we have to be doing mor e research into those areas, what can we produce that farmers can continue to make living but also have the options there that they can grow a crop that does not produce such a tremendous amount of residue tha t they are then, if unforeseen weather conditions arise, forced to go to burning? We also have to, I believe, do more research or encourage more research on different types of machinery. There is machinery available now that chops up the straw better than it used to.

There are different pieces of equipment that help farmers manage their residue better, but there is need to do more in that area. I also think we have to do more in the area of alternate uses for the fibres,

part icularly I think about flax. I know a lo t of farm ers are no w collecting their flax straw and it is being bought by a particular paper company that comes into the area and takes it off. That is very useful because, as anybody that is in the farming industry will know, you cannot work flax straw back into the soi l, and if you do not have a market for your product, then you are going to have to dispose of it and the only way that you can dispose of it is by burning it. So again, we should be doing more research into ways of using those fibres that are out there.

We hear people talking about using the straw as fuel, being packaged some way into pellets. I know there is a pellet plant that is looking at that right now, but there are people in our area who have, in fact, done some work and are heating their shops with bailed straw. There is a tremendous amount of energy in that straw that can be made use of. So those are the things that have to happen. Along with bringing in regulations to control burning, we also have to, as I say, look at alternate uses for the prod uct. There is a tremendous amount of energy in that fibre that we can make use of.

We are also losing a lot of value in the soil by burning the straw. Experience will tell, I am sure many farmers across the way will agree, that if you burn your straw too many years in a row, there is a difference in the quality of your soil. It is not a great benefit. I know most farmers do not want to burn unless they are forced into it becau se of weather conditions. There are those farmers who have burning as a regular practice in their operation and those are the people that we have to provide more information for, provide alternative information and encouragement that they change that practice.

I think about the flooding situation in our area. I was out looking at some of the fields last night that had been eroded. It was interesting to note that those pieces of land where there was a lot of residue on, that had not been burned or tilled too much, were not eroded nearly as badly as those areas that had no residue on them. There are just huge gullies washed into those fields. * (1 550) So leaving residue on t