Time: 2:3 0 p. m. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANIT OBA Friday , 14 March 1980 INTR ODUCTION OF GUESTS MR . CHAIRM AN, Mr. Abe Kovnats (Radisson): This committee will come to order. I wou ld like to direct the honourable members' at tention to the gallery on my right , where we have 40 visitors from Bismark and Century High Schools of North Dakota , United Stat es. This school is under the direction of Mr. Souther , and I would hope the honourable members would join me in welcoming you here this afternoon. MATTER OF PRIVILEGE MR . CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk ) Mr.

Chairman, I rise on a matter of privilege pertaining to the MacGregor derailment and the potential hazards arising therefrom, to advise the House that information did come to the attention of the Member for Churchill and myself this morning . As a result of that information being obtained by us , I wonder if the • MR . CHAIRM AN: To the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, the House is not open at this time. We are in committee. The Honourab le Opposition House Leader . MR .

PETER FOX (Kildonan): I believe it is incumbent at any time to have a matter of privilege raised in this Assembly , whether we 'r e in committee or whether we'r e in proceedings with the Speaker in the Chair . All that my leader was indi­ cating was that he wanted to give some privileged information to this Chamber, in respect to an urgent matter. And I think he's entitled to give th at. MR . CHAIRM AN : To the honourable members, I don't believe that a matter of privileg e can be raised while we are in committee. --( Interjection )- - With leave?

I could al low the Honourable Leader of the Opp osition to speak with leave . The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. EDWAR D McGILL (Brandon West): Mr. Chairman, on the point of order, the Leader of the Opposition wishes to make a statement to the House on a matter which he describes as one of privilege . It would seem to me that that matter might be given to the House when the Speaker retu rns to the Chair and the House is back in session. Bu t at the moment the House is not in session, we are in commit­ tee, and in fact , Mr. Chairman, we are in two committees.

So I would think it would be the inopportune moment for such a statement to be made. MR. CHAIRM AN : The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR . PAWLE Y: I promise that the statement will only take one minute , if I could have leave , because I do believe it 's a matter of sufficient urgency that I should, at this point, rather than waiting until 4:3 0, be given an opportunity to make it . MR . CHAIRM AN : As suggested to the Honourable Leader of the Opposition, the whole House will be in session at 4:3 0, but with leave , I will al low you to con­ tinue .

Does the Honourable Leader of the Opposition have leave? The Honourable Government House Leader . MR . McGILL : Mr. Chairman, with great respect for the urgency of the mes­ sage which the Leader of the Opposition may wish now to give to the House, I think - 989 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 it is the privilege of the House to receive that, and not for a Committee of the Whole , which involves only part of the House. I think it 's the proper method and the message should be received by all members of the Hou se. MR . CHAIRMAN : Leave has not been granted . The Honourable Member for St . Johns. MR . SAUL CHER NI ACK : Mr . Chairman , I'm just wondering whether commit tee would not be disposed to rise, just for the time it would take for the House to meet to hear the statement .

I' m not making a motion yet, I'm just suggesting , in line with what the Minister withou t Portfolio said, that we could do it that way , and then go back into committee as soon as it's dealt with . I know we 're taking more time in discussing procedure than we are in an offer, which I believe my leader was about to make to the committee. MR . CHAIRM AN : To the Honourable Member for St . Johns, I don't think it 's a matter of just procedure . I think if it 's a matter of importance , that the whole House be allowed to hear this matter of importance.

And leave hasn't been gran­ ted , so I think that we 'l l just have to carry on with the committee. The Honourable Member for St . Boniface . MR. LAURENT L. DESJAR DINS : Mr . Chairman , on a point of order. I think that it is a qu estion of urgency , something that cannot wait until 4: 30, and it's something that my leader would like to know because it might dictate how we handle and how we behave during this commit tee.

It is an exchange that he 's had , I' 11 leave it up to him, I' m not going to bring the subject , except it was an exchange he had with the Min ister responsible and a commitment that we have , and we want to go on this assumption that this is respected . It 's an announcement that would take half a minute. That 's all .

And I think that we 're master of the committee here , and I beg ag ain , I ask the members, so we don't lose time in calling the House and proposing a motion to adjou rn and so on , that we allow, that we give leave , it's not a partisan debate, it 's an announcement that my leader would like to make . I would like the leader of the committee, if it 's not the House, to reconsider and allow this half a minute, or minute statement that will dictate how we 'll handle the proceeding of this committee, and it could certainl y get things to go a lot faster than it would otherwise. MR .

CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. McGI LL : Mr. Chairman, on the point of order, we would certainly be pleased to receive any special statement which the Leader of the Opp osition is intending to make , but we would ask that that be given at 4: 30 when the Speaker is back in the Chair . MR . CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Opposition House Leader. MR . FOX : Yes, Mr. Chairman. I would like to suggest that since we cannot have the co-operation of the honourable members across, that the committee rise. QUEST ION pu t, MOTION defeated. MR . FOX: Yeas and Nays , Mr. Speaker . MR .

CHAIRM AN : Call in the members. The Honourable Opposition House Leader . MR . FOX: Due to improved communications, I understand the Honourable Min­ ister of Consumer and Corporate Affa irs and Environment is prepared to make an announcement. If I can have the unanimous consent of the Hou se, I am prepared to wi thdraw the motion. MR . CHAIRM AN : Does the member have unanimous consent? The motion is with- drawn . - 990 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs. HON. WARNER H. JORGENSON (Morris): Mr. Chairman , I am not able at the moment to make a statement on the developments that have taken place since this morning , bu t I hope to have something prepared for the House around 4:3 0, if that 's satisf actory . MR . CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Leader of the Opp osition. MR . PAWLEY : Mr. Chairman , I thank the Minister for the commitment pertain­ ing to providing a statement . We had understood that the Minister would , if at all possible , do that very thing.

All that we would like , by way of a comment from the Minister, is an assurance that there will be no spreading of the vinyl chloride in the meantime until suc h time as statement has been given and he is ful ly satisfied . MR. JORGENS ON: I'm prepared to give my honourable friends that assurance now, because I'v e already issued instructions not to have it spread . CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS & TRANSPORTATION MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN , Mr. Albert Driedger (Emerson): Committee come to order. We 'r e in the Estimates of Highways and Transportation, l. (b) (l)-- pass.

The Honourable Minister responsible for Lotteries. HON. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendrye): Mr. Chairman , before we broke for lunch the Member for The Pas made several observations in which he ended up his litt le talk by accus ing the Min ister of Highways of blat antly using political tactics in developing this partic ular road program. Upon checking , over the lunch hour , and looking at the new redistribu tion map , Mr.

Chairman, I find that three of the four projects on 391 are in members' opposite constituencies, and even one like the 392, which is 20. 5 miles, is in Snow Lake, which is the Member for Flin Flon 's constituency . I guess, Mr. Chairman , if members on this side of the House have anything to say, we 'd sort of really feel that it shows a bias in the opposite direction , that we aren't getting our fair share on this side of the House. Mr. Chairman, I would like to also make a brief comment with regard to the upgrading and the strengthening of the roads in the province of Manitoba.

As many people know, Steinbach , one of the la rger areas in my particular rid­ ing, does not have any railway at all . Road transportation, truck transportation is how we receive all our goods and services within ou r particular community . I want to say that I wholeheartedly support the strengthening program that the Minister is undertak ing.

I notice that the particular riding will be getting an additional , something like two miles of road extension on the No. 12 , which is a pretty heavy two miles, I might say , because there 's an overpass involved over a grade separation , but I want to tell the Minister that I want him to continue to, wherever possible , (1 ), press the federal government to enter another road strengthening agreement as the department had a number of years ago , and to con­ tinue to upgrade the infrastructure in rural Manitoba .

One of the things I think that we have to real ize, and I think the Member for Lac du Bonnet realizes this problem too, is that in this time when we are looking at high interest rates, when we are looking at problems of distrib ution , one of the problems that we have wi th rail is the length of time that it takes to move a partic ular commodity from one place to another, and that 's where the trucking industry has really come in.

You cannot afford to have a shipment of goods waiting in sidings , being unload­ ed and loaded again into the tru cks, only to find it arriving at your place of business or a retail outlet , two or three months down the ro ad. When we're look­ ing at interest rates of 17 , 18 , 19 , 20 percent, there is no retailer that can really afford that . So even though I agree that the cost per pound of haul ing goods via rail versus the trucking industry, especially on items like ore, potash , - 991 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 and othE!r heavy commodities, we have to also appr eciate that we have to have a very good road infrastructure program in order that we can see goods and services moved as fast as possible from one location to another. So, Mr. Chairman , all I want to say is, that I certainly want to see the Min­ ister continue in that vein; I want to see my Minister continue to press • (Committee was called into the House) MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Before I call the committee back to order. .I suppose that even if we don 't have the phone numbers here , we can continue .

Is that acceptable? (Agreed ) Call the comm ittee back to order. When we adjourned at that time, the Honourable Minister of Sports and Recreation had the floor. That's fine. The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKIW : Well , Mr. Chairman , I wonder if the Minister would be in a position, after the period of our break this afternoon, whether he had an opportu­ nity to be able to assemble some figures and projects out of his Estimates book that would chall enge the stat ements that were made by some members on this side with respect to the politics of the road-building program for 1980.

If the Min­ ister is in disagreement wi th that sta tement , I woul d have thought that having had the opportunity to peruse his Estimates, that he would have been able to tell us that we are wrong and where we are wrong in the amounts of dollars or examples of program , becaus e I think the Minister would appreciate that we had but a few moments to examine this program before we had to respond to his stat ement .

On early ex amination, it appear ed , as was stated by some of my colleag ues , and if that isn't the case in ac tual fact , then I think it 's reasonable for the Min ister to respond and point out where we have overlooked something and that may be satis­ fact ory to us , Mr. Cha irman. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Minister. MR . ORCHA RD: Thank you , Mr. Chairman . I certainly appreciate the Member for Lac du Bonnet's concern that that all egation does not go unchalleng ed. I did not take the all egat ion too terribly seriously , Mr.

Chairman , because the Member for The Pas is naturally trying to make the best political statement that he can make , and in view of the fact that this government has und ertaken a substantial road program, he can 't critic ize us for not trying to meet the legitimate needs of Manitobans. So his only other attac k has to be that it 's political . I think, Mr.

Chairman, it was adequately pointed ou t when the Member for The Pas demonstrated his somewha t large lac k of knowledge on what goes on in Northern Manito ba, when he indicated that , for instance , that the Cross Lake road was under serious negotia­ tion by his department some two-and-a-half years ago , and now und er the Conserva­ tive government it's been completely dropped and nothing is going on. He said that nothing is happening there, when in fact , Mr. Cha irman , that road is being constructed this winter.

I think in all fairness to the Member for The Pas we should give him the op portunity to retract that misinformation from the record . MR . McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman , I'm not sure I need the Minister's facetious remarks. I asked the Minister before I made my comments whether or not there were items shown elsewhere than in the blue sheets in terms of northern highway pro­ grams, in terms of those things that come under the Northlands Agreement, because some northern roads did not always appear within the blue sheets in the past, and the Minister said that the entire program was in these blue sheets.

I would like the Minister to tell me - I have gone through the sheets over and over aga in and I can not find Cross Lake in the blue sheets. M3.ybe the Min ister could tell on what page and where I have overlooked this matter. MR. ORCHA RD: Mr. Chairman , I can appreciate the Member for The Pas now trying to wiggle out of the statement where he in fact said that nothing was going on on Cross Lake road and he wants to try and cover his tracks when he has had himself caught with his hand in the cookie jar . - 992 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 Mr. Chairman , the Cross Lake road is not a numbered road . It is neither a PR nor a PTH and it isn't listed in the blue sheets. It is a comm unity access road and is under construction right now, qu ite contrary to the sta tement that the Member for The Pas made. MR. CHAIR MAN : (b )( l). The Member for The Pas. MR. McBR YDE : Mr. Chairman , I am not trying to cover any tracks; I' m trying to get information from the Minister . The Minister doesn't ap pear to want to give information, or wants to play games wi th what 's going on. Mr.

Minister , there are roads like the Cross Lake road listed in your sheet here that you gave us . It says here under last year 's, Thompson, Split Lake; it 's not a numbered road but it 's listed in this book here. I am assuming, since I asked the Minister if in fact it appeared anywhere else and he said, no, it wouldn 't be in here , since Cross Lake isn't listed in here - I mean, he's the one who said work wasn't being done. I asked him that . The Cross Lake road isn •t listed in this booklet here, so maybe he can explain to us why it 's not in here, and where he bungled in terms of not having it li sted. MR.

ORCHAR D: Mr. Chairman, to avoid the Mem ber for The Pas digging himself fur ther into the hole , it won't app ear on this year 's program because in fact the funds were committed in las t year 's capital expenditures, so he's exactly one year behind in his comprehension of what is happening in northern Manitoba, an area that he pur ports to have some knowledge of. MR. McBRYDE : Mr.

Chairman , the Minister is trying to dig himself out of his hole , but before he digs himself any deeper into this hole that he's deter­ mined to make for himself, I wonder how come then we have hal f of this booklet here as projects previously programmed. Thompson-Spl it Lake road has been under way for a long time, longer than the Cross .Lake road. Why wouldn 't the Cross Lake road appear in this booklet here , and why didn't the Minister know that this morn­ ing when I asked him that question? Why didn't the Minister know this morning? I mean, he's learned something since I asked that question, I assume. MR.

ORCHA RD: Mr. Cha irman, as soon as the Member for The Pas had finished his remarks this morning, I pointed ou t to him that construction was in fact going on on Cross Lake road . There was no indication that this afternoon is the first time that I mentioned that to him, for his edification . MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The Member for The Pas. MR . McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman, I never said that. When I asked the Minister this morning, Mr. Chairman , if there were roads no t listed in this book, the Min­ ister said there was not. Cross Lake is not listed in this book.

Other roads undertaken last year are listed in this book and they are not numbered roads . First of all , the Minis ter used the excuse , "Wel l, it 's not a numbered road ." There are roads that are numbered that are li sted in this pamphle t here. So, I would ask the Minister now, why did he leave the Cross Lake road out of this list­ ing here? MR. ORCHAR D: Mr. Chairman , I believe we're into an argument on - that it's really not going to get anywhere.

The Member for The Pas, this morning, laid ou t the accusation of mysel f and my department that we were not doing anything , we had dropped the Cross Lake road . I immediately , when he finished his discussion, told him the Cross Lake road was, in fact , being constructed right now. And that answered his ques tion as to whether the Cross Lake road was, in fact , being con­ structed or not. I don 't what his partic ular argument is right now . The Cross Lake road is, in fact , being proceeded wi th, despite the fact he did not have the knowledge that that project was going on. MR. DEP UTY CHAIRMAN : (b).

The Member for The Pas. - 993 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 MR. McBRYDE: Well , Mr. Chairman , the reason I didn •t have the knowledge was because the Minister told me if it was being constructed , it would be in these blue sheets. It 's not in the blue sheets. Now, Mr. Chairman , the Cross Lake road was one of the examples I used to prove my point. I raised abou t 8 or 10 examples with the Minister, and I can raise a number more. Mr. Chairman , the Minister now says the Cross Lake road is under construction . Maybe he could tell me if the Easterville road is under construction and doesn •t ap pear in the blue sheets .

M:tybe he can tell me if road from The Pas to the Saskatchewan border is in the Budget and not on these sheets. Maybe he could tell me if the Unperville road is in the Budget and not on these sheets. M:tybe he could tell me if the road to Pine Dock is in this Budget and not on these sheets. M:tybe he could tell me if the road to Pelican Rapids is in his Budget and not on these sheets. M:tybe he could tell me if the road to Jackhead is in his Budget and not in these sheets . M:tybe he could tell me if the road to J:auphin River is in his Budget and not in these sheets. Mr.

Chairman, if the Minister would like to cla rify th ings and answer the com­ ments that I' ve made, then maybe he could tell me which of those numerous roads I mentioned that were in planning or process where work hasn •t proceeded according to these blue sheets; which one of those roads are , in fact , under construction , planned for construction , and don't appear in the Minister 's bl ue sheets. MR . ORCHA RD: Well , to answer a couple of speci fics, Mr. Cha irman, the Easterville road is not being proceeded with this year , nor is the PR road west from The Pas to the Saskatchewan border . MR.

McBRYD E: Yes, Mr. Chairman , th at's the assumption I made on all the roads I mentioned, because they 're not in the blue sheets . I had asked the Min­ ister speci fical ly , then, will work be proceeding on the Pelican Ra pids road? MR. ORCHA RD : No, Mr. Cha irman . MR . McBRYDE: I ask the Minister specifically , will work be proceeding on the Ja ckhead road ? MR. OR CHAR D: Mr.

Chairman , we cou ld probably quite adequately resolve a lot of the roads that the Member for The Pas mentions, when we get to Ac quisi tion and Construction of Physical Assets, Resolution No. 87. , which deals with such road facili ties as are not numbered roads, PTHs or PRs. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman , I raise this matter under the

section that 's under consideration , Administration, Mr. Chairman , and what the Minister said in no way changes the comments that I made; that in fact we have basically a crass, political document here in terms of the road construct ion that 's going to be under way . And , with the information that the Minister gave me, I listed all those roads that would not be proceeded with, Mr. Chairman . And one of those roads is, in fact , being proceeded with , even though it's not shown.

And that •s good that the people at Cross Lake are getting the road under last year 's program, and even though it's not listed under las t year 's program in the paper here. But of the other nine roads that I mentioned - I •m sure they 're not proceeding unless it's like Cross Lake, they don't appear on the list here, from what the Minister said - that they are not proceeding. That in fact this is a cra ss, po li­ tical document that outl ines the Conserv atives ' intention to do work in Conserva­ tive constituencies and to ignore the rest of Manitoba . Mr. Cha irman, that still stands.

Nothing the Minister has said changes that. The other thing on this Administrative section, I wonder if the Minister could cla rify in some detail , the North lands Agreement and how it fits in here . We had I think about , in 1977 , speci fically li sted in this budget , I think about $5 .7 million under highway construction under the Northlands Agreement.

Last year , we had $5 .1 mill ion listed under the Northlands Agreement , and this year we have $4.4 milli on listed for highway construction under the Northl ands Agreement. fut I' m assuming that there are other sections of his budget , or other budgets, that do with High ways and Transportation, where some funds appear , because there 's about $7 to $9 mill ion allocated in that agr eement for transportation services . - 994 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 So maybe the Minister could clarify it to me, to help me understand this budget and how they 're administering those Northland funds as to where it appears in this budg et, and the total amount of Northl and 's funding within his budget, if he could give me that information. MR. ORCHAR D: Well , Mr. Chairman , thank you . The Member for The Pas is once again insisting that this ro ad program is, I beli eve a crass, political docu­ ment , is what he's saying .

What the Member for The Pas fails to recognize is that , for instance, on PR 391 , there is a considerable amount of work being under taken this year , which is not in a constituency per se represented by a Conservati ve member of the Legislat ive Assembly . And furthermore, Mr. Cha irman, if he could identify a portion of 391 which was in fact in a Conservative constituency , he then automatically makes the blanket assumption that any con­ struction on that road only services the people in that constituency , in fact, is of no benefit to the rest of the residents of northern Manitoba. Mr.

Chairman, I would submit that 's a rather strange assumption, and in fact any construction on 391 services several communities that are at the rece iving end of traffic on 391 . And any construction that this department undertakes on 39 1 is to the benefi t of all residents in northern Manitoba who have to use that road to get to and from southern Manitoba and their home destinations in northern Manitoba. So his accu­ sations of a crass political document are just totally un founded. And furthermore, Mr.

Chairman, when the Member for The Pas doesn't look further than the end of his nose when it comes to the highway construction program on roads leading to The Pas, he makes the blanket assumption that because we did not lay a 10 or 20- mile strip of asphalt in the constituency of The Pas, then we are completely abandoning The Pas. Well , Mr. Chairman , I think it 's very evident to anyone who wants to take a look at the road program, that we are constantly up­ grading roads leading to communities in northern Manitoba. And it 's just very un fortunate, Mr.

Chairman - it 's not very un fortunate, it's very fortunate that some of those roads in fact are through constituencies that are represented by a Conservative MLA. , but the road is not built strict ly for the use of the residents of that constituency .

That road leads to the community of Swan River, the community of The Pas, the community of Flin Flon, and any work under taken on roads to the south of that are not a crass political document, but ra ther the overall program that this province , this government , is undertaking to provide transportation services of an efficient and comfortable type for all people of Manitoba , because the roads we build in southern Manitoba often lead , Mr.

Chairman, to the residents of northern Manitoba, and if that is in some way leaving them out of the road program, then I fail to see the Member for The Pas 's rationale on that particula r statement. MR. McBRYDE: Mr. Chairman , I'd ask the Minister more of a question, that maybe his officials are giving him some information in terms of the no rthland 's funding and how it appears in here and what the intention is for it Speci fically on the Min ister 's comments, Mr.

Cha irman, I think if the Minister woul d do some homework, and I think it's ••• Highways have traditionally done this homework before, because Highways Department and their staff have a pretty good idea of how much money is being spent in each constituency , and so maybe if the Minister would just gather that information together and present it to us , maybe, Mr. Chairman , he could show that I was wrong . If he could show how much is being spent in each constituency , he could easily show that I was wrong.

And if the Minister is able to table the documents of the intended program for this year and the estimated value of that program by dolla rs, and the figures show that I am wrong, then I'l l apologize to the Minister; I'l l apologize to the Minister for being wrong. But it 's fairly simple for the Minister if he wants to demonstra te that , Mr.

Chairman, to be able to demonstrate that providing the figures that the Highways Departmen t usually has around in their files, and informat ion, I'm quite sure that they won't have too much trouble figur ing that out for the Minister and giving him those particular figures. In the case, Mr. Chairperson, it' s a good thing that work is being done on 391 - 391 needs a lot of work done on it , and it 's a good thing that work is being done on 39 1. And it does serve all of northern Manitoba. Bu t basically , Mr. Chairman , it services the people of Thompson who travel 391 to get to Thompson. - 995 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 That's the people it benefits the most. And it just so happens that Thompson is a Conservative constituency at this time, Mr. Chairman . I' ll add very qui ckly , at this time . Certainly , Mr.

Chairman , work done on No. 10 highway at Swan River is helpful to people from no rthern Manitoba who travel that road further no rth. fut if you want to take the most travelled route for people from The Pas, or the two most travelle d routes for people from The Pas, one is to Saskat chewan, and even though the planning was under way , there was agreement to proceed with it, the land acquisi tion was taking place , that is one of the roads that will not be proceeded with . The other main rou te that people from The Pas take from The Pas to travel to other areas, is direct to Winnipeg.

And people taking that road travel No. 10 Highway to the Fastervil le Road , the Fasterville Road to No. 6, No. 6 to Winni­ peg. And, Mr. Cha irman , I don't think there 's one cent being spent on either of those two rou tes, th at are key routes for the people of my constituency . But nonetheless, Mr. Cha irman , the Minister can prove me wrong by giving us the figures that I just mentioned. I would li ke an answer from the Minister and , Mr. Cha irman , I' m trying to get information here .

I want to understand exactly what has happened to Northlands expenditur es; and he has Northlands' expenditures in his department, and I wonder if he could tell me exactly which of those North land expenditures are highways, or road construc­ tion expenditures, or let 's say sur face transporta tion expenditures, as opposed to airport and other expenditures. And, Mr. Chairman, to make it cl ear in terms of, as I understood from the Min ister this morning, those items that app ear on the blue sheet here include Northlands expenditures the same as they include regular provincial highways expenditures.

I'm sure that even this government, Mr. Chairman , is not going to reduce its highway expenditur es, because in no rthern Manitoba now they 're getting 60 cents from the federal government for every mile of highway they lay down in northern Manitoba. So, Mr. Cha irman, they 're not going to pass up that opportunity to improve the network in northern Manitoba, when they can do it at less than hal f the cost to the province of Manitoba, than they do with other roads in the prov­ ince of Manitoba.

But I would like the Minister, if he could cla rify for me in terms of the Northlands fundings, how it 's intended to be used this year , how much there is for surfac e transportation, like highways, or barges, or other surface transportation systems. If the Minister could clarify that for me. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Minister. MR. ORCHA RD : Thank you , Mr. Chairman . The funding and the project s to which that funding goes to, can be adequately identified under two resolutions, Mr.

Chairman , and when we get to them I' m sure the Member for Th e Pas would be most anxious and will ing to discuss those fundings. And those are Resolutions 85 an d 87 , Mr. Cha irman. MR . McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman , I am raising the matter of the North lands, not just in this committee, under Administra tion or early on, because there's been a number of transfers of funds around like there is in the Minister's reconcil ia­ tion statement, Allocat ion of funds from Northern Affa irs re Northlands Agree­ ment .

I apprecia te that when we get into the detail of section-by-section, that he can explain the detail of it . But I would li ke him to tell us now, while we're on Administrat ion, how the Northlands funds are admi nistered , if he could tell me the breakdown in terms of the expenditures for Northlands. MR. ORCHAR D: Well , Mr. Chairman, I reiterate , the proper place to discuss the breakdown in capi tal ex pen di tures of Northlands Agreement fundings, are in the appropria te appropriations, which are Resolution 85 and Resolution 87.

And I'm quite sure if the Member for The Pas would like to pass on through the Estimates , we can give him those answers this afternoon, if he would care to move the Esti­ mates along that far. - 996 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. McBRYDE : I still wasn't finished, Mr. Cha irman. MR . DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE : Yes, Mr. Cha irman , I' m disappointed the Minister isn't will ing to co-operate even to that limited extent. What I want from him is the overall picture of how Northlands are being expended, not jus t in one

section or the other

section , but the overall picture of how the North lands are being expend­ ed wi thin his department, and whether there •s been an increase or a de crease in those overall North lands spending , in terms of surface transportation. MR. DEP UTY CHAIRMAN : I think that the Minister has already made his point , that he will discuss the Northlands Agreement in Resolutions 85 and 87 , and if you want to talk about Administra tion, or other aspects of it , we 'll stick to the topic of Administration. The Member for The Pas. MR. McBRYDE: Yes, Mr. Chairman .

I'd just like the record to show the Ayatollah-like att itude of the Minister in terms of being fair and reasonable with members of this partic ula r committee Well, Mr. Chairman, I will jus t have to bow to the Minister 's power and wait for whevever he 's will ing and able , and I would jus t like to say , before I con­ clud e , Mr. Chairman , th at I am very disappointed that the previous Minister of Highways is no longer here , because he was much more co-operative than this one is . MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The Member for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USK IW : Yes, Mr. Cha irman .

I simply want to make the point, Sir , that it's unfortunat e that - for th e purposes of this debate - that you , Sir , were not present this morning when this debate began , and at which time the debate was in order . And this debate is no other than a continuation of the debate that we held earlier today. So we have two different cha irmen wi th two different rul ings as to the appropr iateness of debate on this item. So I suggest to you , Sir , that the discussions are in order, that they were in order this morning, and that really what we are doing is following up on what took place this morning .

In other words, it 's a continua tion process. And in that vein , Mr. Chairman , I would like to point ou t to the Minister that his comments this afternoon do nothing to cla rify the issue, because what he tried to imp ress the committee with is that there is work being done that we were not aware of this morning, pursuant to the discussions this morning, and that the Mem­ ber for The Pas should have known th at work was under way . Mr.

Cha irman, what we were talking about this morning - at least some of our members - was the almost total absence of departmental activity projected for the next fiscal year in constituencies which are not represented by the government . That was the issue that we were into this morning and that is still the issue. The Minister tried to clari fy that by pointing out that that there was a project in the constituency of The Pas , which in his opinion it was the negl igence of the Member for Th e Pas not recogniz ing it . Well , then, Mr.

Chairman, we find that the Minister himself alludes to the fact that that program was a carry-over from the year before , which then confirms that the Member for The Pas was correct in the first place , that is, in talking about new dollars in terms of the fiscal year that we are approach ing, that there are no new allocati ons. And that was the issue that he was raising this morning. So it is not good enough to say, "B..! t we have allocat ions unused from last year". Well , we know that , Mr. Chairman .

Throughout the province that is some­ thing that occ urs within the Highways Department every year . fut what the members on this side have been objecting to, is the lack of new allocation of funds for new construct ion. The Minister has not been able to respond to that , and I would have thought that after having had two or three hours, an opportunity that could have provided some answers, that obviously the position of members on this side must be fair ly accurat e or else the Minister would have responded to point out that indeed there were expenditures planned for those areas. - 997 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 Now , if the Minister feels that he wants to make that contribution , we are hopeful that he will do so. a.it if he is silent on it , then we have to conclude that he real ly has nothing to tell us and that our assumptions are relatively correct . MR . DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : (b )( l) - the Mem ber for Lac du Bonnet. MR. USKI W: Well, Mr. Cha irman , I guess the silence of the Minister implies that our assumptions are correct , and I suggest to the Minister that that is ra ther a call ous way of running his department . I don 't think we want to belabour the qu estion.

If our assumptions are in­ correct , we would have hoped that they were corrected , but that is not coming. I would like to ask the Minister, Mr. Chairman , what the department' s policy is with respect to the question of consumption of energy in the area of the building of highways, whether the energy question has entered into policy changes within that department. 'lb put it plainly , Mr.

Chairman , has the department done some studies or compar isons or evaluation of completely going out of the aspha lt pro­ gram and going wi th concrete only , as a means of highway constru ction , as an ag gregate for highw ay construction?

Because obviously , if energy is a problem and oil consumption on the highways contributes to the problem - and the cost factors may not va ry that much between the two - as I recall it , a year ago we were led to bel ieve that there was very litt le difference in cost between concrete and asphal t now• that perhaps it might be the right time to have a change in policy , given the proper studies and so on that woul d have to be undertaken. MR. ORCHAR D: Mr. Chairman, the department often will present an alter na­ tive method of construction which sometimes involves concrete or reinforced con­ crete .

The one project that is par ticular in mind this year was in this instance a fairly significant difference in cost between asphalt and concrete . A MEMBER : Which one? MR. OR CHAR D: Well , concrete , being qu ite a bit more expensive.

And as of yet - and once agai n I guess you might call it a moving targ et - because as asphal t prices appear to be going up , that differential in cost between concrete and an asphal t riding surface may well, in the next construction year or the con­ struction year thereafter, become much cl oser that we can consider, even though there is additi onal cost because of the spinoff to Manitoba concrete in their cement industry - that concrete in fact will be the way we would go in construc­ tion, bu t as of the one major project , which was considered both ways, the cost differential was too much .

The other point, Mr. Chairman, that I'd like to point out to the Member for Lac du Bonnet, in terms of concrete constru ction , is that a concrete surface remains intact for a number of years in generally very good weight-carrying condition.

However, concrete surfaces do have the distinct disadvantage in our Manitoba cli mate of shifting , so that, partic ularly for the truc k traffic, and now with the advent of the smaller car - the shorter wheelbase car - de pending on the amount of use , some 10 to 15 years, your concrete surface becomes choppy , and at that point in time the only solution to that is to overlay it wi th asphalt . So what we would be doing, Mr.

Chairman, if we were to consider a concrete riding surface now, because of the cost differential between asphalt and concrete , we may well be committing the taxpayer of the province to an overlay at any rat e , some 10 to 15 years, and at what kind of asphalt price of course I think, is any­ body's guess. The other area that is being looked at , which quite frankly , from initial inspection may well have more opportunity than the concrete riding surface , is the establishment of a soil mix sub-structure on highways, which is overlaid with bitumenous pavement .

In other words, using Portland cement and lower qua lity aggre gates to establish your base courses. It 's still more expensive to go the cement route , but certainly the economics there are coming very much in line . It 's a study and a program that the department is constantly reviewing , to make sure that we are expending our limited road budget and getting the most, shall we say, the biggest bang for our buck . - 998 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 MR. USKIW : Well , yes, Mr. Chairman, I would like to leave with the Min­ ister, some ques tions, so that when we arrive at the areas where they might be most appropriately dealt with , th at he might have had the lead time to bring in some answers. And that has to do wi th the total staffing of the department, the nu mmbers game, in other words. I don 't need that right now. MR. ORCH ARD : We 've got it on a sheet right now. MR. USKIW : All right. Yes, that 's fine.

The other , which is really the more important one for me, is the total number of square feet of office space occupied by the department ; a percentage of that space that is occupied in govern­ ment build ings; a percentage of that space that is rented from private premises; and the last 12-month change in those percentages as between government offices and private premises • MR. ORCHARD : Mr. Chairman, that may well be able to be provided, but all office space rentals and allocat ion of office space are under Government Services , as the member is aware, and could well be addressed there. MR. USKIW: B.It, Mr.

Cha irman, the Highways Department must know how much space that it uses , how much of it is used in pub lic bu ildings, how much of it is in private build ings, and whether there has been any change in the last 12 months as between pub lic and private , one way or the other . The Highway Department should be in a posit ion to know that , surely their ac counting people must know that. MR . ORCHARD : Mr. Chairman, that inf orma tion can be made availab le . MR. USKI W: I don't need it today, Mr.

Cha irman , but I have indica ted that I would like to know , and if it isn't readily available from the Highways Depar t­ ment, perhaps it can be provided through the Highways Department from Government Servic es, or whatever. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : (b )( l) --pass; (b )( 2) . The !>Ember for Ste . Rose. MR. AD AM : Yes ••• --( Interjection)-- I thought he was •• MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : Order please, order please. I might inform the mem­ bers of the committee there is no list. The Chairman talces the members as they in di ea te their preference to speak . The !>Ember for Ste. Rose. MR. AD AM: Yes, Mr.

Chairman , I believe there was a list before the dinner hour and I guess that li st. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : To the !>Ember for Ste . Rose, there is not any more list , not for the previous Chairman, nor wi th myself. The !>Ember for Ste. Rose. MR. AD AM: Well , Mr. Chairman, this morning when I responded to the Min­ ister 's opening comments, I had not had the opportunity of perusing the blue sheets here in regard to the highway program, and I mu st say that after a qu ick curs ory look through the programs for 1980 /81 I was agha st , to say the least. My predecessor in Ste .

Rose Constituency , the Honourable Gil Molga t, went through 11 horrible years prior to my assuming office , 11 horrible years under the Duff Roblin administrat ion, in regards to road construction in the Ste. Rose Consti­ tuency . And in fact , people were advised then when they came in to request for road work that they need not expect much road construction as long as they voted Libera l. That is the answer they usually get. Nothing ha ppened in Ste. Rose until 1969 . Mr. Molga t was the representative for 1969 and 1970 , Mr.

Chairman , and not till then did they start to get some highway construction and road upgrading and that. And it' s obvious that we are returning to that era, to the Duff Roblin era. And it 's obvious that the ongoing - 999 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 problem, the st aff, were ignored . The district offices and their programs and districts were ignored as well. I am sure that the Minister will probably be able to lay off a lot of people in the I:auphin district , since there will hardly be any construct ion going on in the Alonsa and Ste . Rose and Glenella areas. That there will be able to be some lay­ ing off of people there , I presume, from that district . I' m not sure about The Pas, if there is a district office in The Pas; there probably is.

We are , to say the least, disappointed , because the Throne Speech indicates - and I would like to put it in the record again, and it has already been pu t in the rec ord in the House - bu t in addition, through the expansion of highways trans­ psortation to communities, and I emphasize, "throughout the province".

That is what the Throne Speech in di ea tes, and there should have been some thing else in there , "throughout the province where represented by Conservative members", because this would give us the impression that there was going to be a compre­ hensive road program throughout the province , a nd this is not the case, if we are to go bY the blue sheets. Now, I am wondering, �. Chairman, if it is possible , is there any other road construct ion tha t is not shown on this list in those other areas outside of The Pas, outside of the North lands Agreement? MR. ORCHARD : Mr.

Chairman, the program, the blue program, has the new committed construc tion for 1980 /81 , and also has in it projects previously pro­ grammed which aren 't in place . My deputy informs me that the only other programs which nay be ongoing and are not part and parcel of this blue printed program, might be some works undertaken into Indian reserves, acc ess roads to Indian reserves, which are not listed there and may well be ongoing.

And as well , some of the community roads , which can be, as I have mentioned to the Member for The Pas, that can be dealt wi th speci fically under Item 8, Appropriation 78 , or 87 , I guess it is, in the Depar tment. MR. ADAM: Well , Mr. Chairman , rather than every member wishing to ask ques tions on that particula r subject , would it be possible to have a list of those roads that do not ap pear here . It would satisfy the Member for The Pas .

Those Northland Agreements; if we could have a copy of all those access road s , and those other roads that do not ap pear on here , so that we don't make a total rejection of the Minister 's position, polit ical position. There may be some small exceptions that we may give him credit for, and I would like to see that , but looking at these blue sheets , certainly not very encoura ging to all those people. And I have a stack here , �.

Chairman, an d I have others in my files, of letters that have come out and people have gone to considerable expense to come in to see the Minister and to petition him for their own concerns in their areas. And they have gone to a lot of trouble over the last year or two, and probably prior to that, to come in and express their concerns to the Minister. And to have to advise these people now, I hope that the Minister is correspond­ ing with the group that he met recently, or will respond to their request; I believe they was a delegation froms the Hillridg e , Ebb and Flow area .

And there was an area there that should have been compl eted last year , and I though t for a while that the former Minister of Highways would have completed one

section of road. There was a project for 4.9 miles, and that should have been about seven miles. I think that if that seven miles had gone forward last year , I doubt whether the Minister would have had these delega tions in this year , alt hough it could have gone another perha ps seven miles. &It if it had gone another three or four miles, I think it would have been satisfactory to those people, and they would not have been in here as a delegat ion.

The reason for that being is that the road stopped well short of the school where all the buses get to, to go to school , and that is the most heavily trafficked area on PR 278 . I see nothing in there, and the Minister can correct me, I see nothing of the continuat ion program on PR 26 1 from No. 5 to 26 0 . I am hopeful . I believe , if I have read this correctly , I have only looked at it once , th at the road that goes from 261 to Wal dersee, and to join wi th that road going to Plumas.

Now, part of that constituency woul d be in the constituency of the Member for Gl adstone, bu t I think that road definitely should be upgrad ed . I'm not sure whether it 's in the program for this year but I would certainly hope that program goes forward. - 100 0 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 There 's a need for th at; that road is flooded and closed for a number of weeks during the spring , and I hope that , certainly , there will be some upgrading at least from 26 1 so uth , through the vil la ge of Walder see. It 's unfortunate that portion, coming from Plumas north , was not completed during the time of the Duff Roblin administration, and • MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The Member for Minnedosa on a point of order. MR. BLAKE : We 're talking abou t 260 , north of Plumas. In the program there's 11 .4 miles of grade gravel on the road north of Plumas to the south junc­ tion of PR 261.

MR. ADAM : It 's not a point of order, Mr. Chairman , but ••• MR. BLAKE : The Cha irman can tell me that MR. AD AM: I'm hoping that that 's in the program this year. Also, it appears that the ongoing program on PR 276 has been discontinued . There was right-of-way purc hased on PR 269 , where we have been receiving complaints from the IAlck Mountain School Division for years to try and upgrade that portion from Wa terhen to Winnipegosis.

We had some right-of-way purchases there on 26 9, bu t no thing is ongoing or continuing and it app ears that the constru ction on 276 and 269 has been taken off the list in preference of other areas. MR. ORCH ARD : Mr. Cha irman , the M:lmber for Ste . Rose seems to be, using as an example, a delegation that has communicated some sort of message to him after a meeting in my office with me requesting certain road upgradi ngs .

Now he 's trying to imply that there's some sort of political connotat ion, and I believe - I'm going to have Hansard cla rify my belief on it - this morning, he indicated that the delegation had left , telli ng them that. I was ju st - you know , crass politics that I'd used on them , etc., etc . When I have that veri fied by Hansard as to what the Member for Ste . Rose said, I'm certainly going to correct his grossly mistaken impression of what takes place in my office when I meet wi th delega tions, regard­ less of what constituency they come from or what part of the province they come from.

I'd like to tell the Member for Ste. Rose that , certainly, the group from Hillri dge School are going to be disappointed that their particular road is not in the construction program this year . But I might add, that it would probably mean that some three-quar ters of the delega tions that come in to see me are in a like­ wise position becau se, Mr. Chairman , as the Member for Ste. Rose should recognize , the demands for road upgr ading in the province of Manitoba far exceed the ability of an $80 milli on construction budget to carry out in one year . So it's not at all unusual , Mr.

Chairman , that a group , a delegat ion, coming in to put forward to me their position on their need for their road, in fact , it' s turned down when the road program comes out . I can name you delegations from the Member for Minnedosa, from the Member for Portage la Prairie. And incidentally , I don't have to point out that those con­ stituencies are Tory constituencies. The Member for Emerson has had delegations in to me, the Member for Steinbach has had delegations in to me . In some cases, I've been able to compl y with a portion of their reque st, but most of the time , Mr.

Cha irman , their requests are not part and parcel of the constructio n program this year , because the demands as I said, for roads in this province are extremely la rge , particularly on the provincial road system, whic h I don't think it 's un fair to say that in the past decade of th e 70s, very li ttle reconstruction work was done on them . Some of thos e roads are on soil conditions that make them difficul t to maintain , they are low, they drift in with snow . I have those in my own con­ stituenc y , and I don't have those roads being upgraded this year .

They will get upg raded as the program goes on, years down the road, as this government tables more and more road programs. Certa inly , we 're going to get to them . We 're going to get to the Hill ridge School road but , Mr. Chairman, becau se it doesn't happen this year doesn't mean to say, as the honourable members in the opposition are trying to accuse me of, that we are exercising crass politics . That 's pure unmit igated, incorrect information. - 1001 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 Mr. Chairman, you know , I fu lly respect that the members in the opposition can only make one case in this road program which , quite frankly , is one of the better ones that has been tabled by any government in the history of th is province. The only thing that they can alleged l y hang their hat on is some kind of crass poli ti­ cal reasoning . They can 't argue with the program per se, because they know that in the eight years of their administrati on they horridly neglected the majority of the roads in Manitoba.

And when you neglect them, you have to rebuil d them, and you have to rebuild them at a higher cost than if you 'd carried out a routine maintenance program and a regular reconstruction program. That , Mr. Chairman, is what we are un dertak ing . Those roads are going to be rebuil t in time, and not every del egation that comes in to see me, on a given year , is going to have their road rebuilt . So any impression that the Member for Ste . Rose would like to leave, that I have been using poli tics , particularly with the Hill ridge delega­ tion, he 's absolutely wrong.

Because if he 's going to make that ac cusation , he has to carry that accus ation forward to delegat ions that my own co lleagues have brought in to talk to me abou t roads and have been refused on this road program, Mr • Chairman • MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN : The Member for Ruper tsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Cha irman, I listened to the discussion this mo rning with interest and was disappointed to see that the Minister had no answers for the questions which were raised in debate on the various roads in the constituencies represented by New Democrat s in the Legislatur e.

I know in my own case, to refer to a specific , the PR 30 4 , which leads into the northeastern part of Manitoba , which is the main road for the winter road access to northeastern Manitoba, heavily travelled both summer and winter , it 's obvious from this program , and even from preceding years, that any new work is scheduled for this road. There was some work carried out on this particul ar road during the years the New Democratic Party was the government in Man itoba, but it appears as though the Progressive Conservative government is intent on stopping any major construct ion in that area .

I believe that the Highways De partment wo uld probably be recommending that the engineering, the administra tive level , that some were continued . In fact , to be specific , there was a contract completed on a

section of the road north of where it has already been su rfaced , and last spring it was brought to the attention of the former Minister , th at this road hadn 't even been gravelled properly and cars had to be towed through this sec tion of road . The communities in that area were cu t off from travel practi cally for several weeks, at least certain periods dur ing those weeks. Since that time, sone gravel applic ati ons have been put on that section, so that it is fairly reasonably passable at the present tim e .

And some work was done to clear the road route further on, which made it app ear as though the Highways Department was planning to do a further ten miles or so of road upgrading on that particula r highway . And , Mr. Cha irman , it 's obvious from this budget that all that is being planned for th e coming year is some ap pl ication of crushed rock , which I assume is some gravel work , and not any major upgr ading work. And I would suggest, Mr.

Chairman , that whatever funding was planned for that road has been transferred to some other areas wi thout any real administrative or technical look at what is required to continue to upgrade that particula r stretch of road . So, Mr. Chairman , I believe that the comments that my colleag ue, the Member for The Pas, this morning was saying , are ce rtainly correct in this case.

And if one looks at the constituency of my colleag ue, the Member for Lac du Bonnet, which I am familiar wi th, which is the constituency directly to the sout h of my area , the highway program here shows no major road improvements, any new major road improve­ ments for this fiscal year which we are considering . There is some carryover from last year on a main route , wh ich is the trunk highway No. 11 , which I understand is being carried over , but there is virtually no new improvement scheduled for this year .

So the entire rural constituency has been practically cu t off from any road work , and I find that totally una ccepta ble , Mr • Chairman • To be specific, the Progressive Conservative Throne Speech indicated that they were interested in pu tting in roads to areas where it would improve the tour ist potential . Well , Mr. Chairman , there is a brand-new provincial park, Nopiming - 1002 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 Provincial Park, in northeastern Manitoba. There is a road leading north to Lac du Bonnet into that park , 31 4, which is in terrible shape, which desperately needs upgrading if that park is to be a heavily-u sed and travelled area . I understand the Parks Branch is considering pu tting in , in fact , have al ready serveyed lots at Long Lake , and in some of th e other lakes in that Nopiming Prov­ incial Park, and the main acce ss to that park is either 304 or 314. And many people us e the 31 4 route through Lac du Bonnet to get to that park.

And the road leading in there, it 's called PR 31 4, but I have travelled on it , and in places it's not much wider than this table in between rocks. Mr. Chairman , there is a despera te need there for the government to look at improving that access if you are going to be serious about improving the tour ist potential of our province .

Here is an area that is designed to take the spillover from the Whiteshell Provincial Park which is already becoming overcrowded, which we have discussed in the Legislature in the past , and had debates on some aspects of development in the Whi teshell which may be considered very negative by many people. And if you 're serious as a government at looking at promoting tourism, then you must improve the roads which give you access to that potential tour ism.

And there is absolutely nothing in this Highways fudget which would improve two major routes into no rth­ eastern Manitoba that we give access to people in terms of the tour ist potential of that area . And, Mr. Chairman, to look at another road which is not directly in my consti­ tuency , but leads into my constituency and goes through part of the Constituency of St . George , and also a part of the Constituency of The Pas , both of which are represented by New Democra ts, PR 234 has absolutely zip in the bud get for that road .

I notice the Minister is showing great disinterest in my comments, as I am sure he has shown during his consideration of the financial aspects of road construc ­ tion in the province when he decided to spend most if not all the money in Conser­ va tive constituencies. I would like to ask the Minister on a very speci fic qu estion - and I assume that this is the right place to ask it - where it shows in his F.stimates the fund­ ing which shoul d be in place for the access road into Cross Lake. I understand there is some constructi on proceeding in that area at the present time.

Can the Minis ter tell me what the plans are, what the definite plans are, in terms of the constructi on of that area and when it 's expected to be completed to give acce ss to that community? MR. OR CHARD : Well , Mr. Chairman, the Member for Ruperts land has indicated that , you know, there is nothing happ ening in his consti tuency , and I note, with a great deal of interest, that some of that nothing that 's happening in his consti­ tuency involves the app lic at ion of crushe d ro ck to 82 miles of road in his con­ stituency .

I would suggest that if he wants to make mileage comparisons to other constituencies, he will find he 's got more applica tion of crushed ro ck than any other constituency in the province. Now however , in his eyes, that may mean that the department has completely abandoned his area . In the department 's eyes, that means we 're substantially improving PR 304 for access to his constituency , and to make the driving condi­ tions on that road quite a lot safer when it becomes slippery , because of the nature of the soil, and crushed rock is the only way that you help to remedy that problem.

Now, if that 's doing nothing, Mr. Chairman , then I suggest that he dare not offer that 82 miles of crushed rock application to anybody else around the table or he might find that that no thing gets taken up pretty qui ckly by someone else. And, Mr. Chairman, when he mentions access to parks and the promotion of tour­ ism, those project s are , as I tried to explain to the Member for Ste . Rose, there are nu merous requests for upg rading of roads into our park and beach areas.

Access to thos e roads, and the need for construct ion on them, are no different than the need for construction on many of the other provincial roads and highways in the province . And it 's a matter of priorizing where you can spend a limited number of dollars on a virtual ly unlimited a!IX)unt of requests. And he can pick out the one park , the Nopiming Park that he mentions, and ce rta inly , he 's correct , there are no dollars in that for this year. - 10 03 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 Bu t, Mr. Chairman, I might admit that , you know , there are many many roads in the province that have gone - particu la rly provincial roads - that have gone as many as fourteen years with no construction done to them. So, pull ing out an example of one road in one construction budget is hardly indicati ve of inactivity in that area . It simply means that the requests far exceed the ability of th e province in this department to meet those requests. They will , over a number of years of construction budgets by this government, be met.

But they certainly are not always going to be met in one year . That woul d require a capital budget in Highways of probably $800 million or $900 mill ion. And, Mr. Chairman , that would fur ther exasperate the problem that some of the members have alluded to, in that only work which is carried over is being undertaken in their constituencies. Some of the work, Mr. Cha irman , that is being committed this year on the blue sheets will not get don e this year , because the work that 's in carry-over will proc eed, and some of the new work that we commit this year will be on next year 's program as carr y-over .

Now, should that happen to occur in the constituency , for instance, of the honourable cha irman of this committee, and because he has carry­ -over work in his constituency for next year and doesn •t get any new construction doll ars next year , is he going then rightful ly say that nothing has ever been done in my constituency and it' s a political document. I dare say, no, Mr. Chairman. However , that 's the shortsighted att itude that members in the opposition want to take at this time and they are ou t in left field.

Now, in terms of the Cross Lake road , there is I be lieve, a con tract for roug h­ ly al 100 st $3 million being undertaken to provide - what is it - 12 , or is it 14 miles of construction? The Cross Lake road , $1 . 7 mill ion was provided under Appropria tion 15 (8 ) of this depar tment last year 1979-80 Estimates; and $2.5 mill ion was provided under 15 (8 ) Appropria tion in this department this year for the Cross Lak e road. The target year for compl etion is 1980 and , you know, all things being equal and the constructi on season going quite well , it may well get finished this year . MR .

CHAIRMAN : The Member for Ruper tsland. MR. BOSTROM: Just on that point , can the Minister indicate what kind of access that will provide to the community? MR. ORCHARD : Tha t will , as I understand it, and I haven 't been up to see that road , bu t as I understand it , that will provide acce ss, and then we are in the p!'ocess of taking a look at a cable ferry to give the final access f!'om the road to the commu nity . MR . BOSTROM: Mr. Chairman, can I ask the Minister if that construction is cost-shared through the Manitoba- Northlands Agreement? MR. CHA IRMAN : Yes. MR.

OR CHARD : The Minister is indicating it is, which means 60 percent of the money would be supplied by the federal government for that parti cular access . Can the Minister indicate where the other funds are going , wh ich are being spent by his de parment under Mani toba-Northlands funding , where those dollars are going? - how many dolla rs there are and where they are going? MR. CHA IRMAN : I ask the Member for Ruper tsland , are we going into specific items now or are we still under the general heading of Administration'? MR.

BOSTROM: Well , it could be under Administration, since surely North­ lands is something which his administration considers itsel f part of. MR. ORCHA RD : We can certainly talk Administration of the Manitoba North­ lands , but specifics such as what dollars go where are much more ap propriately questioned in Appropria tion 15 (8). MR. CHAIRMAN : (b )( l). The Member for Ste . Rose. - 10 04 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman, on the sheet that we were given in regards to - that 's total staffing - is there anything that we should know or should talk about on the temporary staff tur nover. MR. ORCHA RD : No. MR . ADAM : There' s an increase of four . SMYs 1979-80 , there are four vacanci es, and those vacancies are to be filled? MR. OR CHARD : Yes. MR. AD AM: And that will bring it up to , say, three? MR. ORCHA RD : Yes. What the situation is there , Mr.

Cha irman , is that of the 59 SMYs approved in 1979-80 , four of them were vacancies and have been filled , and we have added four SMYs to that administration staff complement to bring the total SMYs provided for in this year 's Estimates to 63. MR. ADAM : There was actually only 59 on staff last year? MR . ORCHARD : SMYs . MR. ADAM : That 's all ? MR. ORCHARD : Yes, ap proved SMYs. MR. AD AM : So, now we have four more on staff and a decrease in salaries. MR. ORCHA RD : Yes, that 's right , Mr. Cha irman. MR . ADAM: How does that come about , that we have more people on staff? Are they paid less? MR.

ORCHARD : Mr. Chairman, prior to my assuming this department , Transpor­ tation Servi ces Division of Northern Affa irs was integrated with the Department of Highways and Transportation. In that integration function we combined the senior administration levels and , as a result , we have been able to decrease the former level of administration staff involved in our department and involved in the Transportation Services Division of Northern Affairs.

We have eliminated certain of the higher priced , shall we say , the senior paid people, in that integration, and despite the fact that we have increased the SMY appropriation , we have been able to reduce the am::>unt of dollars required . MR. AD AM : How many in the senior management level were dispensed with , or laid off, or transferred? Were some of these transferred to other departments? MR. ORCHA RD : Wel l, Mr.

Chairman , in the Transportation Services adminis­ tration there were 13 approved SMYs last year and we were able to integrate those 13 into our administration by adding only four addit ional people . MR. ADAM : Were any of these people that were at the senior level trans­ ferred into other departments, or were they simply laid off and no longer around? Or have they been absorbed in other departments? MR. ORCHA RD : Yes, one has gone to the Marine Division, Mr. Cha irman. MR . AD AM: What division? MR. ORCH ARD : Marine Division. MR . ADAM : One of those, out of 13? MR. ORCHA RD : Right . - 1005 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 MR. ADAM: And the other 13 are MR. OR CHAR D: Yes, th e other MR. ADAM: The other 12? MR. ORCHAR D: The other 12 were transferred to central administration. MR. ADAM : They 're where? MR . ORCHAR D: To central administrat ion MR. ADAM: Central administrat ion. MR . ADAM: I wanted to know if an agreement has been reached with the un ion, MGEA. Is there a contract up for negotiat ion? MR . ORCHAR D: The MGEA, in general , is negotiating on behal f of personnel in all departments, not singly by my department and the Department of Heal th. They're negotia ting on behalf of all civil servants.

MR. ADAM: There is provision in these Estimates for any increase in nego­ tiations, is there? Where would that be, in the breakdown? Is that the one mill ion? MR. ORCHAR D: Yes. There is provision for salary increase that was ap­ proved last year , but since we don't know the level of the settlement this year , there is no provision made, and that 's customary . MR. ADAM: Well, the one point, the reconcilia tion would show $1 ,3 41 ,000 .QO . MR. OR CHAR D: Right . MR. ADAM: Wouldn 't that be for the anticipat ed increase in salaries this year? MR. ORCHAR D: Mr. Chairman, for the Honourable Member for St e.

Rose, th at 's the catc h-up for last year . MR. ADAM: For las t year? MR. ORCHA RD : Right . MR . ADAM: So we're always a year behind? MR. ORCHA RD : If I can refer the M:lmber for Ste . Rose to page 1 in the Estimate Book, he'll find that there is a General Sal ary Increases appropriat ion of $7 .5 mill ion, which is antici pated to be applied to each department , so that it doesn •t appear . Salary increased provisi on is not made per se specifically de­ partment by department, bu t ra ther as a lump fund as shown on page 1. MR. ADAM: Will it be about eight percent this year? MR. ORCHA RD: Mr.

Cha irman , I have no idea what it 's going to be. That 's a subjec t of negotia tion that I am not part of. MR. ADAM: The Minister has no thing to do with any negotiat ion? The ad­ ministration has nothing to do with salaries insof ar as the st aff is concerned? MR. ORCHA RD : Mr. Cha irman, as I understand it , that 's the responsibility of the Civil Service Commission negotiating with MGE A. MR. CHAIR MAN : (b) (1 )- -pass; (b) (2 )- -pass; (b)- -pass; (c ) (1 )-- pass. The M:lmber for S te . Rose. - 100 6 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 MR. AD AM: I wonder if the Minister coul d give us a resume or an omverview of what is happening in the Compute r Services , there's an increase of some $45, 000 .00. MR. OR CHARD : Mr. Chairman , the Compu ter Serv ices Div ision provides for a number of func tions wi thin the department and the MJtor Vehicles Branch , offering such functions as inventory control , payroll and staff, th e MJtor Vehic le Branch , and as a consequence, MPIC are major users of the Compute r Services. MR. AD AM: The increase in $45 ,00 0 , does that include any salary increases or ••• ?

We have one extra staff there now . MR. OR CHARD : Right . MR. AD AM: Does the $45 ,0 00 just provide for the one salary there or one SMY? MR. ORCHARD : Mr. Chairman , it provides for one additional SMY which , as you are well aware by the personnel sheet , has been approved , and it provides for another item of the storage system design, and provides for such things as annual increments which acc rue to the permanent staff in that department . MR. CHA IRMAN : (c )( l )--pa ss; (c) (2)- -pass; (c )- -pass. The �mber for St . Vital . <Xl which item, please? MR. D. JAMES WALDI NG : I' m still on Computer Serv ices.

Mr. Chairman , my ques tion has only to do with Compute r Services. When the Minister mentioned a number of different functions that this

section covers, is he indicating to the committee that the general item of Compute r Services is providing services to all of the different lines within the department and that there is no separate amount included in any other item here for Computer Services? MR. ORCHARD : Mr. Chairman, I did make an error when I indicated that MJtor Vehicle Branch was part of this approp riat ion. MJtor Vehicle Branch has its own separate compu ter allocation when we get to appropriation No. 9. MR . WALDI NG : Mr.

Cha irman , I thank the Minister for the correction , bu t he didn •t answer the rest of th e qu estion, whether Compu ter Services for all of the other de partments is included in this particula r line, this appropria tion, or whether there are other appropriations for each of the other sections of this department. MR. ORCHARD : This appropriat ion for Computer Serv ices is the portion of it that is servicing the Departmen t of Highways funct ion as opposed to the MJtor Vehicle Branch function. MR. WALDI NG: Mr.

Chairman, perhaps I am not making the qu estion clear enough for the Minister or maybe I' m not understanding his answer. Can I ask him then if Planning and Design and Maintenance and Assistance programs, Construction and various other lines in his departmen t also have within them provision for Computer Services? MR. ORCHARD : Well , yes, bu t for usage in terms of the salaries. There are two things here; there is the salaries of the personnel who are ac tually running the compu ter , shall we say , as versus the actual compu ter time which may be associated wi th the use of that compute r.

And what we have in this appropria tion, Mr. Chairman , is the salaries for the actual operation of the computer programming

section of the department . MR. WALDI NG: Then can the Minister confirm that the $397 . 7 thousand is the total of Compute r Services for all of his department except the MJtor Vehicle Branch? - 1007 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 MR. OR CHARD : If I understand the member's qu estion, the ap propr iation of $397 ,0 000 is the total cost in terms of salaries, and the supplies for, but not the computer time. For instance , in addition to the costs that are in here in staffing, etc., there is data processing costs, for instance; in system develop­ ments costs, for instance , $213 ,138, which are all oca ted to di fferent divisions un der Other Expenditures in, for instance , Planning and Design and Warehouse Stores. But the st affing cost is maintained under Computer Ser vices as an entire func tion. MR. WALDI NG : Mr.

Chairman, I think the Minister and I are now almost on the same wave length , and that was about the ques tion that I asked him in the beginning. I didn 't qu ite catch the figures that he gave me and perhaps he would repeat them. I understand that he is now tell ing me that the $397 ,OOO is att ri­ butable to salaries and related expenditures. But there are other expenditur es related to computers, for example , costs, and that those computer time costs are spread aoxmgs t other lines within his department.

Now perhaps could he give me an idea of how much computer time is expected to be used and possibly how much com­ puter time was used last year in terms of dolla rs? I am not asking for hour s and minutes. MR. OR CHARD : Mr. Chairman, for the Highways Branch , $709,40 0 is our annual departmental computer costs, and that is for all functions and use of the compute r within the Highways Branch . MR. WALDI NG: With the exception of the t-btor Vehicle Branch? MR. ORCHA RD : Yes. The t-btor Vehicle Branch is above and beyond that . MR. WALDI NG: I see. And the $709,0 00 , Mr.

Chairman , will the Minister clari fy for the committee whether that is the expected expenditure for this year or whether he is speaking of the year in which we are on now? MR. ORCHA RD : That 's the expected expenditure in 198 0- 81. MR . WALDING : Can the Minister give us an anticipa ted expenditur e for the year drawing to a close? MR. ORCHARD : I don 't have that figure within the Estimates here , bu t as a rough figure that will, I think, maybe give the Member for St .

Vital a kind of comparison he is wanting , the depar tment has provided me with a comparison to other de partments of Highways in terms of their uti l izat ion and cost for comput er serv ices for their various activ ities. And in terms of a percent of the total budg et , the Department of Highways in Manitoba expends .3 percent of their gross total expenditures on computer services, and that compares pretty favourably with , for instance , B. c. at .4 percent ; Alb erta at .4 percent ; and Saskatchewan at .5 percent .

So our util ization of compu ter services is quit e frankly pretty effi­ cient when you compare it to other ju risdictions that are basically doing the same kind of programming work that we ar e. MR. WALDI NG: I' m glad to hear that , Mr. Chairman. Perhaps the Minis ter then, when we 're talking of comparative figures, can give me the comparable esti­ mated or budgeted aDPunt for the 1979-80 year , not the actual , bu t the aDPunt bud geted for last year . And perhaps it 's in Hansard; maybe I asked the same qu estion las t year . It 's hi ghl y likely. MR. ORCHARD : Mr.

Chairman , we haven 't got that figure bu t we can get it for the Member for St . Vi tal . MR. WALDI NG: Thank you , Mr. Chairman. So in actual fact the total expen­ ditu res within the department that our computer related , are in the region of $1 .l million? Woul d that be correct , adding together the $70 9, 000 and the $397 ,O OO that are in the printed Estimates Book? - 1008 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 MR . ORC HARD : No, Mr . Chairman. The $709 ,4 00 is the total expenditure and includes (c} (

l) and (2) as part of the total to make up the $709 ,0 00 .00. MR . CHAIRM AN: Order please. The hour being 4:3 0, Committee rise . SUPPLY - LABOUR AND MANPOWER MR . CHAIRM AN: This committee will come to order . I would direct the hon­ ourable members' at tention to Page 69 of the Main Est imates, Department of Labour and Manpower. Resolution No. 91. Item (

d) Training and Development

(1) Apprent­ iceship--pass - the Honourable Member for Kild onan. MR. FOX : Mr. Chairman, I would hope you would have a few minutes of grace so the Minister can collect himself and his information. I believe he had a num­ ber of questions that were asked by the Member for Fort Rouge prior to the lunch break , and I' m sure that the Minister, in his usual co-operative way , will want to give those answers at the present time. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. HON.

KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): The Member for Fort Rouge was asking if we had followed up on the possibility of women being put on the advisory boards for the apprenticeship trades, and I had replied, or partly replied that , yes, in fact we had followed up and we had contacted a variety of people , the Chamber of Com­ merce , the Canadian Manufacture rs' Association, the Mining Association, the Win­ nipeg Construction Association, the Manitoba Federation of Labour , and Winnipeg Building Trades, informing them of the desire to have women placed on the trades advisory councils, and asking them if they could give consideration to that.

MR . CHAIRM AN : (1 )--p ass - the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge . MRS. JUNE WEST BURY : Yes, I thank the Minister for his replies to my ques­ tions. I just wanted to express a few more concerns that women's groups , in par­ ticular , Counc il of Women, have expressed regarding the position of women in trades.

I think society is becoming increasingly aware that women have the neces­ sary abilities and skills, but really we are no further ahead than we were in 1945 when women amply dem onstrated their abil ity in the area of trades and factory work and all of the other trades that had previoulsy been carried on by their men folk durin g the Second World War , when women were much praised by society and by governments in general for their outstanding , and I am quoting I think, contri­ buti on to this nation and to all of the other nations in the allied world by tak­ ing over in those fields which had been predominantly male fields .

Unfortunately in 1946 those women were all told to go back home and get back to their kitchens and start behaving in the more traditionally accepted w&ys that society has over the centuries reserved for women.

I understand that some people have predicted that over the next decade there will be a labour shortage in Manitoba and perhaps this makes this a particularly propitious time to change further the attitudes of present day society, and as the Member for Logan was suggesting this morning, especially by the government pro­ viding leadership in the area of bringing women into the app renticeship programs in all the areas of trade , and particularly in government departments.

One of the reasons that women have been reluctant to enter non-traditional occup ations, of course, has been their lack of confidence in their own competency and this lack of confidence has been instilled in women over the generations and indeed over the centurie s, I suggest , Mr. Chairman. I am reminded of a story that I heard Judy LaMarsh tell many many years ago . She was saying that when she in high school she was directed as one of the compulsory courses to go into the Home Economics class and she has never felt that she had a particular facility for Home Economics.

She asked if she could go into Shops and it was totally out of the question at that time for any girl to enter a Shops program, and she still felt angry about this 20 or 30 years later . I think that perhaps that has changed in the schools to some extent. I under­ stand in the past five or six years in Winnipeg , some of the boys have been taking - 1009 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 Home Economics courses and some of the girls have been going into some of the Shops programs in the schools; so, you know , we are pleased with those changes.

I still think the atti tud es, generally speaking , in the schools and in homes tend to well, the Honourable Minister this morning said that if somebody says my son is going to be a plumber , that some people might regard that as a stigma, and I think he is right ; using as an opposite example , when girls choose to go into profes­ sions, some times they are regarded as quaint or odd or obviously not going to settle down and have a family or any of those other desirable things, and I think that families, as well as gu idance counselors and schools , are inclined to encour­ age boys to become doctors, lawyers, engineers, and still they are encouraging girls, regardless of their capabil ities, to become nurses, teachers, secretaries.

It is only society and I guess the passing of years and example by governments that are going to change those attitud es. I completely agree with the Minister, you know, the point he made regarding his own son. I guess we are all proud of the ac complishments of our own children , and I no less than others who have spoken today .

Certainly another atti tude in society that has to be changed is this sort of adoration of the professions and of certain occupations and a feeling among some people that if you don't go to uni­ versity - I think I am talking about boys here more than girl s, because it is still not accepted for women to be in many of the professions, that in the trades it is something less than to be a professional person regardless of stories such as the Honourable Member for Inkster's story this morning.

I do think that perhaps this is something that needs to be approached through the school system as well , this respect for honest work in any occupation and I am glad that the Min ister is providing , I hope , some leadership in that and will communicate his concerns to the Minister of Education . It would be nice if he was here to hear some of those remarks. So that is all I have to say and I thank you , Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to do so. MR . MacMAST ER: I thank the Member for Fort Rouge for the comments. I have two or three other answers to some of the qu estions that were asked.

In 1978 there was six women in the Apprenticeship Program in the province . Of the 31 4 people that cancelled out durin g the course of last year , one, and only one of them was a woman . I was asked how many , we had said that last year we were going to try and get more apprentices within government , we have 22 within government, 68 within Crown corporations, and none of them are women. MR . CHAIRM AN : The Honourable Member for Logan . MR .

WILLIA M JENKINS: I thank the Minister for that information and I just want to draw to his at tention that 22 and 68 is 90 , I think we should be striving for a figure of a 45 -45 split or a 50 -50 sp lit. I hope that the Minister will take this under serious consideration, because we cannot , as I said this morning , say to industry that you should be doing this if we are not in our own employment agencies that we have under the Crown setting that example for the private sec­ tor .

I am not that dogmat ic that I say you shall do as I say, but I think if we do by our own example set an example to the private sector we can say, well , we want you to at least measure up to what we are doing. I must say that under the present figures that the Minister gave us , the Minister would be on very dangerous grou nd , and his staff, to say that at the present time. MR . CHAIRMAN : (a) --pass; (b) --pass. The Honourable Member for Churchil l. MR . JAY COWAN : Thank you , Mr. Chairperson.

It seems as if this particula r Item comes at an appropriate time, given the discussions that we have had in the House jus t previously and also the discussions that have been going on at all levels of government during the day in regard to the derailment at MacG regor and the vinyl chloride contamination. MR . CHAIRMAN: Order please . I think the Item under discussion is Training and Development . The item made reference to, to the Honourable Member for Chur­ chill , is not under discussion at this point . The Honourable Member for Churc hill. - 1010 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 MR. COWAN : On a point of order, Mr. Chairperson.

I would appreciate if you would allow me the opportunity to continue with my remarks as I was prefac ing what I did want to say and I was going to, and at this time was in fact discussing training and apprentic eship , training and development , and if you would allow me to continue along that vein with that short prefac e I'm sure you will see how the issue that we are talking about today , irregardless of the foolish remarks from the backbench over there who don't seem to recongize the seriousness of the sit­ ua tion, irregardless of that , I would hope that you would allow me the opportunity to talk about how apprenticeships , how people who are being trained have an oppor­ tunity to learn about some of the hazards that they will face when they ac tually go on to the job.

So I would seek your recommendation as to whether to continue along that vein or not. MR. CHA IRMAN : I would advise the Honourable Member for Church ill that I would have ruled it out of order even wi thout the clarificati on that he has just given and I really can 't se e the connection at this point when we are discussing a particular item. The Honourable Member for Churc hill. MR. COWAN : Perhaps if I can rephrase my statement, Mr.

Chairperson: Can the Minister indicate what training programs are given to apprentices in regard to workplace hazards that they may find in their occupational lifetime when they finally do go out on a job as a journeyman? This is an essential part of a person's training. A person is trained how to deal with tools . A person is trained how to avoid obvious safety haz ards.

I want to know at this juncture whether a person who is in an apprenticeship program has the opportunity to be trained how to deal with some of the more exotic dangers, al though nonetheless dangerous chemical substances that they may come up agai nst during their working lifetime? MR. CHAIRMAN : The Honourable Minister. MR. M:lcMASTER: Mr. Cha irman , the Apprenticeship Branch and the Workplace Safety Division are in communications with the trade unions who are now working ou t a formula as to a portion of the apprenticeship program which will deal wi th workplace safety . MR.

CHAIR MAN : The Honourable Member for Churc hill. MR. COWAN : Yes, if the Min ister could then tell us what is ac tually occur­ ring now for the apprentices who are under the programs now , are they being pro­ vided wi th any sort of training mechanisms to enable them to better deal with some of the more exot ic hazards that they may face on the job? MR. CHAIR MAN : The Honourable Mini ster . MR . M:lcMAST ER : They are given dur ing their apprentice course some educ­ ati on on safety . I jus t said that that has been the history of jus t basically giving some educa tion.

We are now talking to the trade unions and we'll be talk­ ing to educ at ion and we 'll be dealing wi th the Workplace Safety Division to establish a portion of their apprenticeship which will in fact deal with workplace safety . MR. CHA IRMAN : The Honourable Member for Churc hill . MR. COWAN : Thank you , Mr. Cha irperson. The Minister is talking about workplace safety and I don •t want to ap pear picky on the subject but I would ask him, is he also referring to workplace heal th , because the two are different.

The safety aspects of a job are different than the heal th aspects of the job, so will the apprenticeship department be providing a program in conjunction , in co-oper­ ation with the Workplace Safety and Health Divi sion towards the purpose of devel­ oping educati onal materials to provide to apprentices so that they know how to deal with some of the workplace safety and healt h hazards that they may come - 10 11 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 across, such as not only the hazards that we commonly associate or have always associated with the workplac e, bad ladders, usually physical hazards that result in broken bones, sprains, or injurie s, traumatic injuri es, but also in teaching them how to deal with some of the less physical hazard s, the chemical hazards per se, the health hazard s, whether they be chemical or organic or inorganic or of another nature that they may come up against, can the Minister provide us with some information as to what will be in that particular program in regard to providing apprenticeships, with information that they have not been provided with in the past.

The Minister is absolutely correct when he says that there has been no real program in the past , or no significant program to acquaint them with many of these hazard s. There are many reasons for that , and I'm not trying to blame the Minister, I' m not tryin g to say the Minister has not reacted properly in this respect , I' m trying to find out what the Minister proposes to do, now that we know, he knows as a Minister, we know as an oppos ition, society knows in general, that there are some very specific problems. The Minister indicated earlier in his Estimates that they 'r e dealing with carc inogens now.

I said they weren't dealing well enough with carcinog ens, I think the events of the past few days proved that to be a fact. But the Minister has acknowledged that carcino gens are a problem. Many of the apprentices who go into the workplace will be working around areas where they will be exposed to carc inogens. My question to the Minister is, what does he foresee in this program that would better enable these people to be able to deal , to know what dangers they face, and to be able to develop mechanisms , work practice s, in order to safe­ guard themselves as much as is possible against those dangers? MR .

MacMAS TER : I can simply repeat what I said, that the meetings have been taking place, and it 's not a reacting to something , it 's action on our part , that meetings are taking place between the apprenticeship division, the trade unions, we are going to involve the workplace safety division, which in fact deals with all the kinds of things that the Member for Churchill has mentioned. MR . COWAN: Well then perhaps while we are discussing the subject under this particular

section of the Estimates, Mr. Chairperson, I might point out to the Minister by way of suggestion, some of the things that have been done in other jurisdic tions in regard to training people , apprentices and non-apprentices al ike, but in this instance, in order to keep to the Estimates item that we'r e on, we'l l talk specifically about apprentices. But in order to train them to deal with some of the problems that they face, and I will use vinyl chloride as an example of one of the hazards that many apprentices in this province will face when they go into the work world.

It runs the gamut of different professions, the exposure to it. A meatcu tter, which is an apprenticeship , I believe there is an apprenticeship for -- (Interjection)- - - there is none for meat cutting? Okay , let 's talk about the meatcutter very briefly then, is exposed to it when they cut that plastic wrap that the meat is wrapped in in the supermarkets. Th ey 'r e exposed to vinyl chloride to a certain extent.

People who are going into the chemical industry , perhaps to work on mainten­ ance, I know we have mechanics under the apprenticeship di vision, people who are going into the chemical industry , perhaps going out to Hooker or Simplot, may, I' m not saying they are , they may or may not be exposed to vinyl chlorid e.

In the Stat es, the occupati onal safety and health administration has developed a program , I'd just like to take this opportunity to go over it in some detail, to provide training for apprenticeships and other people who are entering an area , and we 'l l take , as an examp le, entering an area where vinyl chloride is used , be­ cause it is an extremely dangerous material to be working with. Under the law, in the Stat es, the company is forced to provide this particular training program , and it consists, Mr.

Chairperson, of explaining to the employee the nature of the health hazard from chronic exposure to vinyl chloride, and includin g in specific , the carcin ogenic hazards of vinyl chloride . In other words, when an apprentice comes forward, what is told to that apprentice is that you will be dealing with a carcinogenic substance , a substance called vinyl chlori de . Now at levels of, and these are levels that OSHA uses, at levels of one part per mill ion for 15 minutes, or , excuse me , one part per million averaged over an eight hour day , you are being exposed to an unacceptable leve l - 1012 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 once you get above that. As a matter of fact , they tell that apprentice that if they are exposed to an exposure of ,5 parts per million, or 1/2 of one part per million of vinyl chloride for more than 15 minutes, they have reached what is called an acti on level. So they explain to that apprentice what an acti on level is. The action level means that they must be pulled out of the workplace and given a medical surveillance program .

They can still work at their job , but they must , within the near future , have a medical examination which pays particular attention to the carcinogenic effects of vinyl chloride, and that records must be kept on them for 20 years, they must have access to those records, in other words, it gives them the right to know those hazards with which they deal. And then when the appre ntice does get on the job, they carry with them that information and can better deal with the hazard . But that 's not all it includ es.

It includes explaining to that apprentice the specific nature of the operations which could result in that apprentice being ex­ posed to vinyl chloride in excess of permissible levels, and then what the appren­ tice should do once they are exposed. In other words, what we do now and what we'v e always done - and I' m not trying to cast any blame, believe me I'm just try­ ing to make a situati on more explicit and better known.

But what we do now is we teach an apprentice how to use a hammer, or how to use a wrench , or how to use a diagnostic tester to test a car or to test a machine, or we teach , in mining as a trade , we teach the apprentice how to drill , how to deal with some of the oper­ ations of an underground mining operation. We teach them all sorts of skills, but we don't teach them how to protect them­ selves to any significant extent.

We don •t teach them what to look for , and further to that , if they did know what to look for because of their own knowledge, we don't teach them what to do once they have found a hazard , once they have been exposed to a hazard . We must do that . This sort of process must be incorporated into our apprenticeship program. They also teach the apprentice the proper use of respiratory protection.

In other words, people who are being exposed to vinyl chloride at levels of greater than one part per million, must wear respirators, but far too often, what happens is, a mechanic who is trained in using a hammer, or trained in using an exotic piece of testing machinery , doesn't know the proper use of a respirator, has never been taught how to use something to protect their he alt h. They 'r e taught how to produce , th ey 'r e taught how to produce effectively and efficiently , but they are not taught how to produce , how to safeguard their health .

This needs to be built into to the program, it 's an essential part of the program. I would venture a gu ess, and it is a gu ess, Mr. Chairperson, but I would venture a guess that the people who are out in MacG regor working on that derailment , some of which were probably apprentices, were out there and not using the proper equipment. I would hazard a guess as to MR . CHAIRMAN: Order please. The Honourable Minister on a point of order. MR . M;:tcMASTER : The Member for Churchill has been playing with the topic ever since he couldn 't make his little speech at 2:3 0.

If he has some li terature that he wishes to forward to us for consideration for a program for apprentices, fine and dandy . I have told him that we're reviewing it, we 'r e going to implement safety into the apprenticeship program . I think he's making a litt le bit of a mockery of your self, Mr. Chairman, the way he 's wandering, and the smile tells you that , and the flailing of the arms , and the attitude of, "Look Mom, I' ve learned something." We 'v e witnessed this for several days with this partic ular member.

This House decided , this House decided , between parties they decided , that at 4: 30 they were going to talk about the particular topic that the Member for Church ill wants to talk about now. I respectfully requ est, Mr . Chairman, that you bring us back to apprenticeship programming . This Minister has said that safety, our divis­ ions will be working with the trade unions, that 's a fact, they have been working with them, they have been talking to them, they 're going to deal with them, I think that 's sufficient, Mr. Chairman. MR .

CHAIRMAN: To the honourable members, I have been listening very at tentively to the debate that has been going on, and with the reference to apprentices, I can 't find the honourable member to be out of order, but I would - 1013 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 ask the honourable member if he could just be more appreciative of the particular Item and that the Item on vinyl chloride will be discussed at 4: 30 . I can 't rule the honourable member out of order, but I would ask the honourable member if we can proceed with the debate on this particular subject . MR . COWAN: Mr . Chairperson, thank you for your advice and there were a few more items that I did want to go throug h in regard to the training of apprentices, on how to deal with this, but if it is upsetting the Minister I will certainly save another opportunity to discuss that .

We will have more opportunities to dis­ cuss it . I do resent the alleg ations of the Minister. I do resent the all egations that when we are discussing a very serious matter , and in the context of the Estimates, that he should stand up and make the type of irresponsible remarks that we have just heard him make . Now I resent that , but I accept it because I have grown used to it from that Minister, Mr. Chairperson. So perhaps we can talk about the Apprenticeship Department in a different context .

I do not mind leaving this item if the Minister is not interested in finding out more information on it , I know it is a subject that for some reason they don't want to talk about , they don't want the public to know about , but for whatever reason that is we will accept it and we will talk about , in this instance, mining as a trade . I would ask the Minister if he can indicate how many people are currently , pre­ sently enrolled in the mining as a trade program , which deals with apprenticeships for people who wish to enter the mining industry? MR .

MacMASTER : The registration has been dropping drastically in the min­ ing as a trade in northern Manitoba ; there are 11 in it presently and we are in the midst now of going out and meeting with the companies and with the unions in­ volved to see what we can do about that particular tra de . That trade started off with a great deal of expectation. I was quite aware of it , belonging to the particular union that was promoting it , and it has faded off dramatica lly . There are several reasons that have been expressed, none of them co-ordinated, put to­ gether .

We expect to be discussing with the industries and the unions involved to see whether we can get it back on tra ck , whether you throw it out , whether you start something new, whether you amend it , or take something out of it , or break it up into different pieces or what you do with that particular trade . MR . COWAN : Mr. Chairperson, last time at this juncture in the Estimates we discussed mining as a trade and the Minister said we are disappointed in mining as a trade last year , and now he is telling us we are disappointed again.

I would ask the Minister what specific procedures he has implemented in order to ensure that we do not lose this important and innovative program that was brought about by the hard and consistent work of miners in northern Manitoba , who wanted to put forth a program that would not only enable themselves and others to be better miners, Mr. Chairperson, but would encourage people to come into the profession, would give the profession a certain sense of legitimacy?

In other words, they were no longer just hard rock miners or tramp miners going from mine to mine , but that they were fully qualified tradespeople , that they had tickets that were recognized by the government, tickets that were recognized by the mining companies and we saw the program start out with a great flurry of activity , we saw the pro­ gram start out in full gear , going , runn ing hard , and then we saw it year by year by year decrease. We saw fewer and fewer people come in.

And the Minister last year , and I can get the transcripts of the Estimates and read it back to him if necessary, I don't believe it is necessary , but the Minister last year said he was disturbed about this process, that he wanted to do something. I would like to know exactly how much the falloff has been , if he could give me the specific numb ers, and what he has done about it in specific in order to ensure that we do not lose this valuable program? MR . MacMAST ER: Well , programs have a degree of val ue . If you can 't attract people to them, then maybe the program is losing the val ue .

Discussions have taken place with the companies and the unions and as I said there appears to be a whole host of things that are wrong . We expect to , in the near futu re , dis­ cuss with the Advisory Council to that particular trade whether in fact , regard- - 1014 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 less of whether the Member for Church ill thinks that it was idealistically great at the beginning, that could be correct , a lot of us felt the same way . Qui te obviously there is a lot of things wrong, people aren 't entering it for a var iety of reasons. The unions are aware of some of thos e reasons and so are the com­ panies. In the very near future we are going to getting a hold of the Advisory Commit tee to that particula r trade and see what we do wi th it , and we will see whether in fact it is a valuable trade as is today; orginally it was .

The Member for Churchill may not aware of it , but there was a lot of men in the mines who had been there many years who quickly took advantage of it to get their ticket , be­ cause they really were tradesmen already. Now a lot of the newer people and younger people do not ap pear to be interested in it , as again, I said for a variety of reasons. Those reasons will be polled all together and we will be sitting down with the Advisory Committee to that particular trade and determining where we are going with the trade , how we can real ly apply the word to it, va lu able , in the context of this particul ar year .

MR . COWAN : Thank you , Mr. Chairperson. Well, I am as aware as the Minister is of the grandfather clause and the way in which many miners who were currently in the field were able to use this program to obtain certification of their abilities, which was long overdue them, and which they wholeheartedly de- _ served . I am also aware that the younger miners, the new miners are not entering into the trade in the extent to which I would have hoped they would , and to the extent to which I would have hoped the Minister would have hoped they would. The Minister said they are not doing that for a number of reasons.

I would ask the Minister to be more specific as to exactly what reasons it is that is keeping the miners, the younger miners, the new miners, from entering this trade. Why are they not doing it? What specific reasons? I would als o ask the Minister to indicate how many times the Advisory Council have met in the past three years, if he woul d have that informat ion? If not, in the past two years, and if he does not have that informa tion, I would expect him. to have the information for the past year . MR . MacMAST ER : I don't have the information on the number of times that the Committee has met, Mr.

Chairman , and I said that there is a variety of reasons that are being co-ordinated, pulled together right now so that we can sit down with that Committee and talk to them about the reasons that we hear from all sources. MR . CHAIRM AN : Resolution 91 the Member for Churc hill . MR . COWAN : Thank you . The Minister obviously does not want to tell me what reasons it is that he knows of for this apprenticeship not working to the extent to which we would have hoped it woul d have . I would ask the Minister if he can indicate how many times other advisory coun­ cils have met in the past year .

There is an advisory council for almost every trade , I may stand incorrectly , it may not be every trade , but for nearly every trade if not all the trades, and the purpose of those advisory councils is to meet and is to discuss some of the problems about which we talked today . The purpose of the advisory council is to sit and discuss about the safety programs that we talked abo ut; these he alt h programs that we talked about, to talk about things like vinyl chloride, things like asbestos, to talk about things like lead .

That is one of the pur poses of advisory councils , to discuss how they can incorporate better teaching methods into the apprenticeship program. So I woul d ask the Minister if he can indicate how many times a specific, and I would like a specific list , how many times his specific committees have met in the past year . MR . MacMAST ER : If the member had been here this morning he would have listened and heard that a good number of the advisory councils of Manitoba have been very inactive for a good number of years. In fact , some of the member s had even left the provinces.

In fact , we have been dealing wi th the trades and with various industries asking them to reappoint people who are totally absolutely dedicated to developing and promoting their trades. I can get the member a list of the meetings that have taken place and there certainly hasn •t been enough of - 10 15 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 them in the last few years, going back many years on the advisory councils . What seemed to be the situation in Manitoba was that in a lot of cases people were appointed to those advisory councils and then nothing happened ; they just sat there for a numb er of years.

We have reactivated all those committees; we have sent letters out to all the appropriat e unions and all the appropriate organ­ izations; we are asking them to give us very meaningful , interested people within those committees to get the apprenticeship on the road and do some of the many many things that we talked about this morning. MR. COWAN : Well then could the Minister indicate how many of those com­ mittees actually have their full compliment of members as of present? MR.

MacMAST ER: We have asked all parties concerned to assure us that they have either reappointed or filled vacancies or taken someone off or put somebody else on, whatever is their desire, by the end of March . MR. COWAN : So we don't ac tually know how many of those committees are act­ ive right now but we do have the Minister's assurances; we had the Minister's assurances last year that those committees would be starting to function and have not started to function . You know , Mr.

Chairperson, the Minister said, last year he said it on numerous occasions in this House, that he is not one to set up com­ mittees, paper committees that don 't do anything, yet we'v e seen for the past three years, we 've see n these advisory counc ils, the advisory committees for the different apprenticeships and trades sit dormant, lie dorman t, without actually performing their function.

And the Minister has had three years, or nearly three years to be more specific , to get these together, not himself personally but the Minister previous to him and himself have had since October 1977 to get these com­ mittees functioning, to get these committees to be doing what they should be doing and they haven 't been able to do that . I can only assume that it 's either a matter of not being able to pu ll the committees together and there is something wrong with the committee structure or not wanting to pull the committees together for some reason, because there is no other reason for it not occurring .

It just doesn •t sneak up on you. The Minister has staff , he has a staff before him, the Minister knows there 's committees. You know, Mr. Chairperson, I didn 't have to be here this morning to hear the Minister say that those committees are very inactive. I knew they were inacti ve . The people in the trades know they 're inactiv e. The tradespeople out there , the journeymen out there, they know those committees are inacti ve .

People who want to become apprentices know those committees are inactive and they know that they have been inactive for the past number of years and that this Minister has been unable in that number of years to do anything towards bringing those committees into a full -functioning stat us , a status for which they were intended. The Minister tells us he doesn't like paper committees. The Minister tells that he runs a tight ship and yet here we see a classic example of him al lowing committees to exist on paper only and that certainly does not depict the running of a tight ship .

It is exactly the opposite , it is the running of a very loose and haphazard ship. So I can only hope that the Minister's assurances this year that those com­ mittees will start functioning and that he is deeply disturbed about it and some­ thing will be done, I can only hope that those assurances this year have more im­ pact and are more effective than his assurances were last year because it 's been a full year and we've seen very li ttle happen. And that 's a long time to pu ll these sorts of committees together , Mr. Chairperson.

So on this side we are somewhat disturbed and that may be one of the reasons why we see the types of problems that we see in the apprenticeship programs; that may be one of the reasons why we see these programs not being ut ilized to the best of their ability . That may be one of the reasons, I'm not saying it is , but it may be one of the reasons why more women aren 't entering these programs . These advisory councils could sit down and say we have a problem; the problem is we don't have enough women entering the programs.

Now that in itself is not a prob­ lem, the fact that there is not enough women is not a pro blem, the problem is that we know there are women who want to get trades. We know there are women who want to enter the different industries with papers that certify them as quali fied tradespeople and they are unable to achieve that goal . That is a problem. There - 10 16 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 may be many reasons why they 're not there . Bu t if they are not there and they want to be there , that is indeed a problem and the advisory committee being the sort of committee that is set up to deal with these sort of problems can develop mechanisms, develop procedures and policies to encourage women to come into the trades, to help them, to assist them, to provide them with the type of support services that they will need because it is difficult for a woman to enter the trades. So that is jus t one thing the advisory council can be doing.

We may not have had to talk abou t vinyl chloride training for apprentices today if the advisory council for the trades that deal with that particula r hazard had been opera ting and funct ioning, they may have already done that for us . The Minister can 't do it all himself. His department can 't even do it all . It 's a big pro blem, it 's a major problem and we 're seeing it all throughou t our in­ dustrial society.

We 're seeing it where we're lacking skilled people; we're see­ ing it in Brandon wi th Hooker and Simplot ; we 're seeing it throughout the province with a lack of power engineers; we 're seeing it with a lack of trained people. The forecasts are that we are going to be sorely lacking in trained and quali fied tradespeople over the next number of years, that there will jus t be too many opportunities, too many openings for these type of workers that won't be filled becaus e the apprenticeship program is not bringing them on stream. And so what do we do, we import, that 's what we do .

We bring in mechanics from England to work in the mines in northern Manitoba. Now that in itself is not wrong . I'm not say­ ing that 's wrong . What is wrong is that there are people in the mines who want to become mechanics. And you know what else is wrong, becaus e I'm not going to blame it on the mines, when some of the people in the mines do become mechanics they leave the mines and they come down south . That 's another problem that happens. Why is that occu rring.

The advisory council could sit down and being the type of co-ordinative body it is, could try to deal with those specific problems, could try to come up with some answers to them. So I will hope - and that 's about all I can do because the Minister is not in a listening mood today - but I will hope that the Min ister 's assurances that some­ thing will be done are better assurances than we had from him a year ago on this item of advisory cou ncils , Mr. Chairperson.

There is much that should be said on this subject but I understand that it has been ongoing for quite some time today and not wishing to belabour the point that would about conclude my remarks. I would have preferred , by the way , to have talked a bit more about the safety and heal th hazards that app rentices face. I would have preferred to do that , Mr. Chairperson.

I would have preferred to do it because it's a very important issue to me bu t sensing a reluct ance on the part of the Minister to deal wi th that , sensing a reluctance on the part of the committee to allow me the sort of lati tude that one would have to have in order to discuss that , for whatever reasons, Mr. Chairperson. I don't know what the reasons are, I know when we tryed to ask those ques tions in ques tion period we sensed a reluct ance for answers, we sensed a reluc tance on the part of the House to let us proceed, we sense it again today. There is a reason for it .

We shall find out what that reason is, I can assure you that. Bu t having said that I believe that unless others on this side or the Minister has any remarks, that we can go on to the next item . MR . CHAIRMAN : (a)- -pass; (b)- -pass. The Honourable Member for Churc hill. MR. COWAN : Mr. Chairperson, we 'd like a rund own of the expenditures under this particular item. MR. MacMAST ER: We have board fees, office furnitur e, printing , stationery, postage, telephone, au tomobiles, pu blic ations, travell ing , o ther miscellaneous , education assistance for $68 ,100.00.

Just a point of interest that the member might be interested in, or others, that in the mining industry though the mining trade itself is the one that 's not working well, there are in Sherritt- Gordon, I understand , approximately 12 5 app rentices of various types. In Inco there is 75 , and in HB&S there is 150 · The trade unions during the cour se of the year , conversations that we've had about these advisory cou ncils, I think if the Member for Churchill will check with the trade union leaders that they're reasonably pleased today with the progress that we 're making . - 10 17 -

Friday , 14 March 1980 MR. COWAN : Well , now the Minister did bring forward an item I would like to discuss. He mentioned - and I didn 't get all the figures down - but there was 100 and some odd in Sherritt- Gordon Mines, 100 and some odd apprentices and he can be more specific when he answers me , and 100 and some odd at HBM&S, and yet only 75 at Inco - or it may be 70 -some, I'm not certain that it was exactly 75 - but it 's in the 70s .

I would ask the Minister to indicate why it is that Inco has a much larger workforce than Sherritt-G ordon Mines, yet has a much smaller - approximately half , and I'm using very approx imate figures now - approximately hal f of the number of apprentices that Sherritt-G ordon has, yet they have a la rger operation and one would expect the opposite to hold true . MR. CHAIRMAN : I have absolutely no knowledge of why that is the case. MR. COWAN : Well , thank you , Mr. Chairperson..

Knowing the Minister 's history with that partic ular operation, would he be prepared to investiga te the situa tion so as to find out why it is that there is this sort of a discrepancy that does tend to look unusual upon first glance . There may be some very specific reasons for it , there may be some very legitimate reasons for it, I' m not saying that there are not.

But we should at least find out why it does exist, because let 's ju st use the figures the way they are , let 's assume that there's 150 at Sherritt- Gordon Mines are using ; let 's assume that there are 150 at HBM&S - I'm not certain that that 's the exact figure - and let 's