LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Friday, 20 February, 1981 Time - 10:00 a.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle­ Russell). PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rhineland. MR. ARNOLD BROWN: Mr. Speaker, I beg to present the petition of the Mennonite Collegiate Institute, praying for the passing of

an Act to amend

an Act to incorporate "The Mennonite Collegiate Institute". MR. SPEAKER: Reading and Receiving Petitions. PRESENTING REPORTS BY STANDING AND SPECIAL COMMITTEES MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. ABE KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker, the Committee of Supply has adopted a certain resolution, directs me to report same and asks leave to sit again. I move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Virden, report of Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Municipal Affairs. HON. DOUG GOURLAY (Swan River): Mr.

Speaker, I'm pleased to table two annual reports: Moose Lake Loggers Ltd., and Channel Area Loggers Ltd., and this is for the year ending March 31, 1980. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Finance. HON. BRIAN RANSOM (Souris-Killarney): Mr. Speaker, I would like to table the Quarterly Financial Report for the nine months, April to December, 1980 and to table a Return to an Order of the House, No. 10. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion. INTRODUCTION OF BILLS HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne) introduced Bill No. 27,

An Act to amend The Highway Traffic Act. INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: At this particular time I would like to draw the honourable members attention to the Speaker's Gallery where the Pioneer Life Assurance Company has sponsored three Manitobans for Junior Citizen Awards. We have Miss Angela Chubaty of Steinbach, Miss Dorrie Packett of Snow Lake and Mr. Paul Mackin of Ste. Anne, Manitoba. Each of these students are junior citizens, have done some very outstanding work in this province and this morning on behalf of all honourable members we welcome you here.

We also have 20 students of Grade 7 standing from Warren Elementary School under Mr. Shadlock. This school is in the constituency of the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. We also welcome you here this morning. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. HOWARD PAWLEY (Selkirk): Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Education. Can the Minister of Education advise whether he has completed the review of the statistics that were tabled yesterday prepared by the Canadian Association of University Teachers and is he prepared to give us his report on it this morning. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I have not had that opportunity as yet. I'm interested to see that the Leader of the Opposition of course is reacting to the 13.8 percent increase that the government has provided to the universities this year by going back in history; perhaps we should go back a number of years. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, I'm interested in the Minister's comment as to my reasons for asking the question.

But again I ask the Minister to clarify his answers of yesterday whether he is prepared to table - he disagrees - his alternative tables pertaining to the provincial share of university costs at the post­ secondary level. MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, I'm sure that the statistics that the honourable member has are available to everyone. If he wants me to table a similar copy to what he has I'm sure I could do that if that's what he would really require. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the Minister obviously misunderstands.

Is he prepared to table alternative statistics pertaining to his department, his position pertaining to the provincial share of post-secondary education being picked up by Manitoba? MR. COSENS: Mr. Speaker, I've assured the honourable member that when I've had an opportunity to look at those statistics I will then at that time either table those particular statistics or others that are applicable. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Agriculture. In view of the fact that the Manitoba 947

Friday, 20 February, 1981 Farm BUreau in its brief yesterday confirmed what the Opposition has been saying for months that the present legislation is dealing with farm lands protection is wide enough to permit a truck to drive through can the -(Interjection)- yes, and the Opposition have been saying that for months despite denials from across the way, particularly by the Minister of Agriculture. Can the Minister confirm then, Mr. Speaker, that he will in view of the observation by the Farm Bureau be tabling that legislation at the earliest possible date in this Chamber? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. JAMES E. DOWNEY (Arthur): Mr. Speaker, in brief ti3sponse we will act and act very responsibly and quickly something that the Opposition did not do when they were in office. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member of Ste. Rose. MR. A.R. (Pete) ADAM: Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Agriculture. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order please. I find it difficult to hear the question of the honourable member. The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Minister of Agriculture.

I want to advise him that he can't continue to bluff his way out of this one. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. May I point out to the honourable member that this period is set aside for questioning to seek information. Does the honourable member have a question? MR. ADAM: I certainly have, Mr. Speaker. I want the Minister to tell us today what he intends to do to answer the criticism that has been levelled at him by the Farm Bureau and the farmers of this province? He can't continue to bluff his way out of this one. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, what we have done we had a very reasonable and straightforward and constructive meeting with the Farm Bureau yesterday to discuss the very things that the member is saying that we should be doing and that's exactly what we have done. MR. ADAM: Yes, Mr. Speaker. How does he justify that the Farm Bureau has said that this government has erred in 1979 when they changed the legislation to allow Canadian corporations to buy land? How does hi3 jUstify that, Mr. Speaker? Let him wiggle out of that one. MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, the Act was changed in 1978 to in fact work in the best interests of the Manitoba farm community because it did in fact protect those farmers by reducing the non-resident or the foreign owners to 20 acres - something that the mertil:iets opposite had in their legislation was something to 160 acres and all that was happening were the foreign investors were buying in multiples of 160; we reduced that, Mr. Speaker, to 20 acres. So we did in fact make some changes but we also made it, Mr.

Speaker, so that Canadians would have the opportunity to invest and be a part of this country, something that the New Democratic Party do not believe in. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs. HON. GARY FILMON (River Heights): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, the other day the Member for Rupertsland asked a question about an ad that was placed in the paper by Penner Foods. He implied that perhaps it was a case of false or misleading advertising and my department should take a look at it.

I'd like to inform the member that the matter of false advertising comes under federal legislation and The Combines Investigation Act and it is the prerogative of any individual to place a complaint before that federal department in order to be investigated. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. Mr.

Speaker, in view of the fact that City Council appears to act on the basis of numbers of people who attend a meeting and in view of the fact that the citizens of the north-end last night had a mass meeting favouring a south-north access to that community which has been denied for a period of 45 years, would the Minister of Urban Affairs in consultation with the City of Winnipeg use his good offices to see whether this matter can again be reviewed? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Urban Affairs. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I understand that as a result of that meeting last night that a motion will be placed at the next Council Meeting by Councillor Yanofsky who has always been a supporter of the Sherbrook-McGregor overpass and that it will therefore be dealt with at the next Council Meeting. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary question.

Could the Minister again as the Minister of Urban Affairs ask the City of Winnipeg to clearly lay the ground rules to the people involved that if the matter is going to be decided on the basis of how many people come to an auditorium, or how many people walk with picket signs, or how many people demonstrate, that the people know that, so that they can behave appropriately when they have to show their interest in the proposition? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, the member has obviously made his point, I thirik, and Council will be aware of this position. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George. MR.

BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I direct this question to the Minister of Agriculture. In light of the answer that he just gave to the Member 948

Friday, 20 February, 1981 for Ste. Rose about preventing non-residents from purchasing land, could he explain his answer to the Member for Ste. Rose, that the legislation now prevents non-residents from buying farmland in Manitoba? Could he explain that answer? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, if I said that it restricts non-resident Manitobans then I was incorrect. The legislation restricts foreign investors from buying more than 20 acres of land in Manitoba. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker, could the Minister indicate whether or not by the legislation, has it not been explained to the Minister that paper corporations have been set up over the years since the amendments have been brought in and that is how the legislation is being circumvented? Is the Minister denying that is not a fact of life, that this has occurred, Mr. Speaker? MR. DOWNEY: Mr.

Speaker, we've done a little more research than the members opposite have on this particular issue and I have indicated publicly during our Estimates that seven corporations were under review and will in fact be taken to court if enough evidence is brought forward to prosecute them. There is no question in our mind that we are fully supportive of restricting non-resident Canadians, and I say Canadians, from purchasing more than 20 acres of agricultural land in Manitoba. Non-resident Canadians, non-residents of Canada, foreign investors, Mr. Speaker.

I think it's an issue that the members opposite have tried to continually upset the farm community on, but again we have to go back, and the majority of a lot of the land purchases took place during their administration. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George with a final supplementary. MR. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker, I'm glad that the Minister now realizes that's one of the reasons that the legislation was brought in, in 1977.

Can the Minister since he is confused as to who he's going to allow or not allow to purchase farmland in Manitoba, is he prepared to make amendments that will allow farmland in Manitoba to be owned and owned by resident-owner operators only? Is he prepared to make those amendments? MR. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, we do not live in a dictator-type system of government as the member opposite would have us do. No, we believe in the freedoms of people in this country, the freedoms of people protected by the legislative system, not trying to enshrine a Bill of Rights in the Constitution that does not allow, Mr.

Speaker, ownership of land by any private individual, home farm or anything else, something that the New Democratic support the Liberal Government in, in Ottawa. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. J. WALLY McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Honourable Attorney-General.

I wonder if the Attorney-General can advise the House if he or the Premier or the government have received any official notice from Premier Blakeney that his government in Saskatchewan along with four Federal Saskatchewan M.P.s, which includes Lorne Nystrom, the Constitutional expert for the New Democratic Party, have in fact withdrawn their support from Prime Minister Trudeau's Constitutional package. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I have received no official communication from Premier Blakeney, nor do I believe the Premier has.

I can only confirm news reports that Premier Blakeney and his government are joining seven other provincial governments in opposing the federal constitutional proposal as well as four members of the New Democratic Party Members of Parliament from the Province of Saskatchewan. I can only also confirm that the Progressive Conservative Members of Parliament in Manitoba are also opposing the constitutional proposal and I can only presume, because I've heard nothing to the contrary, that the NDP Members of Parliament for Manitoba are supporting the Federal Liberal Government. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, I wonder if I could ask the Attorney-General another question, if the Premier or the Government have received any official notice from the NDP Leader of the Official Opposition in this House, but who by the way nominated Lorne Nystrom some six years ago, or the seven federal members . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. Has the honourable member a Point of Order. MR. PAWLEY: On a Point of Privilege. MR. SPEAKER: A Point of Privilege. MR. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I certainly would not have been embarrassed to nominate the very fine Member of Parliament for Yorkton six years ago, but unfortunately the statement by the Member for Roblin is just as inaccurate and misleading as a statement that the Minister of Natural Resources had uttered about eight years ago that a certain individual had been my colleague's best man. Mr. Speaker, the ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please.

I find it very disturbing to say the least to hear a person rise on a point of personal privilege to make statements about other members in this Chamber and I would ask the honourable member to withdraw it. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, very briefly the statement by the Honourable Member for Roblin is untrue and, Mr. Speaker, you should request that he withdraw the statement. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr.

Speaker, then if in fact the Honourable Leader of the Opposition says he didn't nominate him, I'll say that he fully supported him when he was nominated and elected in Saskatchewan. 949

Friday, 20 February, 1981 But to get back to my question, Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Leader of the Official Opposition in this House or the seven federal Members of Parliament from Manitoba, have they indicated that they intend to support Premier Blakeney and the four Saskatchewan members who are now standing in their places opposing the Prime Minister's constitutional package? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, neither I nor the members of this Chamber nor the citizens of Manitoba are aware of any position of the Leader of the Opposition on the Constitution. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin with a final supplementary. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I wonder if the Attorney-General could advise if maybe the Premier and the other eight or other seven Premiers of the province from across Canada, who now stand opposed to the Prime Minister's constitutional package, will be calling a meeting in the next few days or the next week or so to reassess these recent constitutional developments? MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, subject to final confirmation later this afternoon I expect that there will be a meeting of Ministers in Winnipeg next week to review matters referred from the meeting of the six Premiers who met recently. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. SAUL CHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to address a question to the Minister for Community Services, who probably received a letter, such as many of us did, from the Manitoba Foster Parents Association requesting that there be proper consideration given to the provision of initial clothing needs for a child entering into a foster home.

Can he respond to that request and entreaty? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. GEORGE MINAKER (St. James): Mr. Speaker, I have not received a copy of the letter that the honourable member is referring to, to my knowledge. It may be in our office at this time, but I can assure the honourable members that we have proper care facilities for our foster children and the rates that are paid to foster parents for looking after our special children are always reviewed and kept up-to-date and increased every year. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, I may ask a repetitive question because I didn't get an answer. The question I asked was whether or not the Minister could respond to the request that children entering into a home be provided with initial clothing which would be up to the standard of the home thai they're entering, not whether there will be moneys in the allowances for the future to maintain it, but rather the initial clothing allowance can be provided. MR. MINAKER: Mr. Speaker. when I receive that request I will give it fair consideration. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MS. JUNE WESTBURY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs and refers to the Pensioner Tenant School Tax Assistance Program. Could the Minister, first of all, tell us whether the regulations on this legislation in any way provide for an income-to-rent ratio? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Consumer Affairs. HON. GARY FILMON (River Heights): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to thank the honourable member for giving me notice of her question. Unfortunately I'm not quite sure that I understand it. I just was given indication she was going to ask a question on this topic.

The provision as I understand it is that the program provides for assistance of up to $175 for pensioners to offset the school tax portion of the rental cost and the effect of it is that it covers 10 percent of the total rent for the year in excess of $1,625 up to a maximum of $175.00. So it is based on a rental base, on a certain rental base. MS. WESTBURY: The question really was, Mr.

Speaker, is income taken into account at all and I want to continue if I may, I take it that it was the intention of the government, in view of the Minister's statement, that anyone paying less than $135 per month for rent does not quality. I had hoped that that was a mistake in the preparation of the brochure, but the Minister's statement indicates to me that that was the intention of the government and would he confirm that please. MR. FILMON: Mr. Speaker, I'll take that as notice and bring back the full information on it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge with a final supplementary. MS.

WESTBURY: I'll be waiting for the notice, Mr. Speaker, but I wonder at the same time if the Minister could indicate whether he is comfortable knowing that where someone 60 years of age receives all of her income from the interest on investments that she will not qualify regardless of the amount of money that is in her income. I don't know if this particular Minister is aware of that, but this is something that has been drawn to my attention. I hope you'll look into that as well. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Health regarding the pressing need for more nursing home beds in the WestMan area and yesterday, Mr. Speaker, the Minister disagreed with, I believe, some of the facts that were stated in a

article of the Brandon Sun in late December of 1980. I wonder, Mr. Speaker, whether the Minister would reconsider his position on this matter in view of the fact that a specialist in geriatric medicine in Brandon, namely Dr. Hampton, who was retained by the Brandon 950

Friday, 20 February, 1981 General Hospital has publicly stated that there is a serious need for new nursing home beds in the WestMan ares, and particularly in the City of Brandon. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L.R. (Bud) SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, Dr. Hampton takes a position that is quite understandable and quite legitimate for a geriatrician. I know Dr. Hampton well, he serves on our Council on Aging; he serves in other capacities of an advisory nature to the government.

I would concede that there are areas in WestMan that require additional personal care beds, but I repeat what I said yesterday - the region generally is better supplied than most, if not all, other regions in the province and the big need in WestMan is for replacement of old time-expired nursing homes. There is certainly some requirements for additional beds. I think the primary need and the primary interest of Dr. Hampton is in geriatric programming that keeps people in their homes and in their communities and it gets away from the reflex action of continually building nursing beds. MR. EVANS: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker. I share the view that we should do everything we can to help people retain their own homes and to live in their own homes but, Mr. Speaker, the Minister quotes Dr. Hampton or refers to his view in this matter but nevertheless Dr. Hampton has stated publicly and it's stated in the Winnipeg Free Press of Wednesday, November 26, 1980 and this is a quotation ... MR. SPEAKER: Order. Order please. Has the honourable member a question? MR. EVANS: Yes. MR. SPEAKER: The honourable member may proceed. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, I'm asking the Minister, in view of his last answer, whether he's aware of the fact that Dr. Hampton, is he knowledgeable of the fact, is he knowledgeable . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. Questions of awareness are really not questions that seek information and I would have to consider them not to be suitable. Does the honourable member care to rephrase his question? MR. EVANS: Will the Minister acknowledge the fact that Dr. Hampton has stated publicly that we need an immediate 100 new nursing home beds in this community, that is the community of the City of Brandon? MR.

SHERMAN: can't acknowledge it or unacknowledge it, Mr. Speaker. The honourable member is referring to a quotation apparently in a newspaper story. It may be one sentence out of a hundred uttered by Dr. Hampton. It may be within context, it may be out of context. It may be related to a general area of subject and nature that isn't covered in the story, I don't know. I'll ask Dr. Hampton for his opinion on the subject. MR. EVANS: Mr.

Speaker, is the Minister knowledgeable of the fact and has he taken into consideration that in the WestMan area of Manitoba as of 1978, 14.4 percent of the population were 65 years of age or over, compared to only 10.8 percent for Manitoba as a whole, and compared with 9 percent for Canada as a whole. In view of these facts, would he not reconsider his position and take these facts into account in determining the need for a particular supply of nursing home beds in that area? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I am aware of those statistics.

I am also aware of what I said earlier that in terms of beds per thousand, the WestMan region, and particularly the Brandon part of the WestMan region, particularly the Brandon part of it, is not under-supplied in relation to other parts of this province. Nonetheless, I concede that there is a need for some additional beds. There is also a need for equitability though as relates to other regions in the province that aren't as well served as the Brandon area is. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. WILSON PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, my question is directed to the Attorney-General and flow from the somewhat inaccurate questions of the Member for Roblin regarding the Constitutional Reform.

I'd like to ask the Attorney-General if he can indicate to us whether Premier Blakeney of Saskatchewan has adopted a purely Saskatchewan position on Constitutional Reform and has indicated that he will not join the so-called "gang of six", lead by Premiers Lougheed and Levesque with Manitoba's Premier acting as their errand boy, because the actions of the "gang of six" had been deemed to be completely geared to destroying the development of any positive consensus in Canada with respect to Constitutional Reform. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, my understanding is that Premier Blakeney has indicated that he will not at this time join the other provinces in the Constitutional references. Those are presently to be heard in Newfoundland and in Quebec. I understand he has indicated that his government will be introducing a resolution opposing the federal action in their Legislature, and I say to the Member for Transcona and to the members opposite, we will in the next few days also be doing that.

It will be time for them to stand up and they will be forced to unless they all abstain from making a decision and making a position known on the Constitution. MR. PARASIUK: Mr. Speaker, we look forward to that opportunity. We have been prevented by the government side from introducing our resolutions in the House regarding the Constitution, so we look forward to that opportunity.

I would like to ask the Minister if it is the position of the Manitoba Government to continue to parrot the position of Premier Levesque which states that Constitutional Reform in Canada requires the complete unanimity of all provinces in Canada. Does 951

Friday, 20 February, 1981 the Province of Manitoba continue to parrot Levesque's position? MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, the position of Manitoba is that as well as the seven other provinces, now including Premier Blakeney of Saskatchewan. is that the Constitution should be patriated, there should be agreement on an amending formula and any changes to the Constitution should be made in Canada. MR. PARASIUK: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like the Minister to confirm that a number of provinces do not agree with the unanimity formula with respect to an amending formula that only Levesque and Lougheed and Peckford, who are geared to Balkanizing this country, want unanimity with respect to an amending formula and the Premier of Manitoba is parroting the position of Premier Levesque with respect to unanimity on an amending formula. Does the Province of Manitoba continue to parrot Levesque's position with respect to unanimity on an amending formula? That is the question, answer it. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker.

I remind the Member for Transcona that throughout the summer and during the September First Ministers' Constitutional Conference there was an agreement in principle by the 10 provinces on an amending formula, which the Prime Minister of this country has chosen to ignore and substitute his own amending formula, which would favour central Canada, ignore the West and ignore the Atlantic provinces. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. RUSSELL DOERN (Elmwood): Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.

I assume that the member has not had a question and he has been rising in his place, that he has a preference over somebody who has already had a question. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, the Honourable Member for Elmwood had no point of order. The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I'll be brief. Mr. Speaker, I have only one question, I won't even take any supplementaries and it's to the Honourable House Leader.

In view of the fact several weeks ago we started an experiment with regard to permitting photographers to be in the press gallery and in view of the fact that one of the fears was that they would be climbing over one another. would the House Leader communicate what I feel is the sense of many members to the press gallery that there are not enough photographs being taken of the members? MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, there is on the Order Paper, which will be dealt with in due course, a motion to refer to the Committee of the Whole, the reports of the Rules Committee and perhaps the Member for Inkster would like to make an amendment or make it a condition that photographs only be allowed if there are a minimum number of photographers in the press gallery, perhaps five or seven. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, I went back and checked my notes and I apologize to the Leader of the Opposition for misleading the House about his background with the Member for Yorkton.

The Honourable Leader of the Opposition, I am told, now nominated the Member for Yorkton as a candidate for the leadership of the NDP Party. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the House Leader about a whole series of mailings that are being sent to members of the New Democratic Party.

I received a number myself appealing to them to support the Federal Progressive Conservative Party and I want to ask the House Leader whether the government has provided the Federal Progressive Conservative Party with mailing lists of members of the Legislature and, in particular, members of the Official Opposition. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware of anyone supplying the Federal Progressive Conservative Party with addresses of Members of the Opposition. I think this is something that is becoming quite common.

I, too, have received solicitations for support from the Liberal Party, which I simply handed to the Member for Fort Rouge to look after rather than raise in the House. But it would seem to me that as a result of computer lists or lists that are used by people soliciting party funds these days that these solicitations for support are being sent out indiscriminately. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, my real question to the Minister was this, was this mailing sent out because of the well-known preference of New Democrats for the continued leadership of Joe Clark and secondly, because of the fact that the Conservative Party cannot depend on support from members of their own party to support Joe Clark and have to look elsewhere? MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, maybe it was sent out because of the Opposition Members' silence on the Constitution and perhaps there was some hope that they would support the views of Manitobans and the lead taken by the Federal Conservative Party when they chose the time to make a decision as to which side they would support and perhaps it was . . . some day we may learn from the Opposition as to what their position is on the Constitution. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I would like to ask the Minister of the Department of Natural Resources, who I think yesterday tabled a report of the conservation districts of Manitoba for the year ending December 31, 1979, which report does not have any dates attached to the letters - one, sending the report to the Minister and secondly, from the Minister to the Lieutenant-Governor, whether he could provide us with the dates in which these two 952

Friday, 20 February, 1981 letters were transmitted to the recipients and the dates when they were received. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Speaker, appreciate the fact that the tabling of reports has become somewhat of an issue during this Session and, of course, I will undertake to find that information out for the Honourable Member for St. Johns. MR. CHERNIACK: Mr.

Speaker, since we have such great co-operation from the Honourable Minister, could he also inform us when the December 31, 1980 report will be available for members of the House and for the Lieutenant-Governor? MR. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, the obvious answer is when it's ready. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona. MR. PARASIUK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. My question is to the Attorney-General.

Could he confirm that the so-called Vancouver consensus was only a consensus to further discuss an amending formula, that it did not have the unanimous agreement of all provinces as an amending formula, because it provided for provinces to opt out of certain changes to the Constitution, in effect further Balkanizing the country and adding to separatist aspirations of certain people within this country. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. STERLING R. LYON (Charleswood): Mr.

Speaker, perhaps I should answer that question because the last occasion on which the 10 Premiers discussed the Vancouver consensus it was in October at a Premiers' Meeting, and prior to that on the Friday morning of the week long conference that the First Ministers had in Ottawa in September. I can see that my honourable friend has been subjected to some of the Liberal propaganda which has so ably seduced his national leader, but I can say as a fact and as the truth of the matter, because I was there and Mr.

Broadbent wasn't, that the 10 Premiers of Canada had reached approval and agreement on the principle of the Vancouver consensus with the realization that it required further refinement. There were questions that had to be answered on it, but as a formula that could be presented and was presented to the Prime Minister carrying the support of the 10 provinces of Canada, it was the Vancouver consensus. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona with a final supplementary. MR. PARASIUK: Yes.

I'd like to ask the First Minister if he would provide the documentation for that in view of the fact that I have been told by Premier Blakeney and the Honourable Roy Romanow, who were involved in that process, that it is not a fact that there was unanimous consent with respect to the specifics of a Vancouver consensus as the First Minister is now trying to tell the people of Manitoba. MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, you've never heard me or Premier Blakeney or anyone else who was engaged in those meetings say that there was agreement on specifics. In fact I just a few moments ago said quite the opposite. Mr.

Speaker, I don't need assistance from a long-time doctrinaire socialist such as my honourable friend. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. MR. LYON: Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, I should put it this way, that having observed my honourable friends in action over a good number of years I need little instruction in how to tell the truth in that. Mr. Speaker, I'm not in any way disputing the word of Premier Blakeney because I know I was at the meeting, I was at the breakfast meeting on the Friday morning when the consensus, the agreement on the Vancouver consensus was arrived at.

My honourable friend, I'm sure, has misheard the Premier of Saskatchewan, just as I'm sure the National Leader of the Rump Socialist Party of Canada misheard the Premier of Saskatchewan when he was warning him earlier that this package would lead to the ruination of this country. If my honourable friend would listen a bit more to Mr. Nystrom, who spoke yesterday I believe it was or the day before, then he would hear Mr. Nystrom saying what the people of Canada should listen to, that this package, said Mr. Nystrom, is going to destroy my country.

It's a pity that our honourable friends opposite can't stop playing partisan politics long enough to stand up for their country. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. The Question Period time has expired. The honourable member on a Point of Order. MR. PARASIUK: Yes. I would like to ask the Speaker if he would consider granting me an opportunity to answer to the Ministerial Statement which did not indeed answer my question of whether he can provide documentation . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please The Honourable Leader of the Opposition. MR. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, on a Point of Privilege. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Leader of the Opposition on a Point of Privilege. MR. PAWLEY: I'm a little embarrassed by the Member for Roblin. Mr. Speaker, a few moments ago the Member for Roblin got up and made another false statement and really it doesn't bother me very much except that I think the record of the Hansard should be accurate. If I heard the Honourable Member for Roblin again for, I believe, the second time suggest that I had nominated Lorne Nystrom for the leadership of the New Democratic Party, Mr. Speaker, I don't know what the honourable member is referring to.

If it's the Official Nomination Address at the Convention that the honourable member is referring to, that is untrue. Mr. Speaker, my embarrassment is for the Honourable Member for Roblin that continues to want to place himself out on a limb of falsehood, so I would ask, Mr. Speaker, you if you again would ask the honourable member to withdraw. 953

Friday, 20 February, 1981 MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, the information that I had said that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition fully supported Lorne Nystrom when he was offering his name as a candidate for the Leader of the New Democratic Party. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Order please. Order please. The Honourable Member for Roblin. MR. McKENZIE: Mr. Speaker, the information that came across my desk said that the Honourable Leader of the Opposition did in fact nominate him.

If that's not the case, I withdraw the remark and leave it on the table that he fully supported the Honourable Member, Mr. Nystrom, when he was a candidate for the leadership of the NDP Party. ORDERS OF THE DA V MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, perhaps I can firstly just place on the record that following the Estimates of Labour and Manpower, and Civil Service, the Opposition House Leader has requested the Department of Health, then the Department of Community Services and Corrections. Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Minister of Natural Resources, that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider and report of the following bill for third reading, No. 3,

An Act to amend The Legislative Act. MOTION presented and carried. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE BILL NO. 3 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY ACT

(2) MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): The committee will come to order. Bill No. 3,

An Act to amend The Legislative Assembly Act (2). Resolution Clause 7 - pass. The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, I was speaking when this matter was last before the House and I was trying to indicate the position that I would take with regard to this clause and it relates to the entire bill. I believe it could have been finished rather quickly, but in any event I'll try again because we had to close at 4:30. Mr.

Chairman, my position is that a member, any member, who is charged with an offence, who has been convicted by a jury, who has been sentenced to over seven years, who is insisting on his innocence and who is appealing his conviction, and who is free on bail should be permitted to play his role in society and that we would lose less by taking that risk if that member was in the House, happened to be a member - I'm not going to say this universally because it's very difficult to deal with matters universally - that we would risk less by having that member in the House than by having him thrown out of the House and then finding out that he was innocent.

My position on that question was voted against by a vote of 47 to 1. That doesn't make me think I was wrong and the other 47 were right. As a matter of fact, by nature, I tend to think I was right and the 47 were wrong, but that was my position. It is also my position, Mr. Chairman, that if the man is out, he should be out and that if he is kicked out of the House, which I vote against, that he should be kicked out of the House, that he is no longer able to represent his constituents and that therefore there should be a by-election.

The Member for Winnipeg Centre made that type of proposal and I would have supported it in preference to what is happening but his amendment went down. So the First Minister has created - and he said, no, the House has created - well, that's true. He has had the support of members - what do they describe that when it's half-horse, half man? A MEMBER: Centaurs. MR. GREEN: A centaur. He has created half­ member, half-not-member. MR. DOERN: Neither fish nor fowl. MR. GREEN: Neither fish nor fowl. Thank you, the Member for Elmwood has given it.

He says that there is a member who can't sit in the House, but he is a member. Now, Mr. Chairman, if he is a member, then I say that he should not be a member if he is kicked out and if he is not a member he should not get paid. But for the life of me, I cannot see how I can refuse to pay him if he's a member, because a member has many responsibilities and I've heard it said so many times, members getting up in this House saying, oh, all my work is outside of the House. There are some members who are rarely in the House; there are some members who are in the House all the time.

So the First Minister says, this man is a member of the Legislature or the House says, this man is a member of the Legislature and I have no alternative despite the fact that it leads to a rather difficult position.

I say that it is a hard position but nevertheless my logic compels me to say that if the man is a member and is precluded from performing his duties, not because he doesn't want to do them, but because somebody else says he can't be in here and that he is to do everything that a member is to do except be in the House, not by his choice but by the choice of the honourable members who say, we don't want to sit with him, then by what standard is his salary taken away? Now, Mr. Chairman, I wish to make it clear that I'm opposed to the package - we can start comparing it to the constitutional package.

The bottom line is that Mr. Blakeney is opposed to the package. I also know and say without equivocation or without fear of contradiction that Mr. Blakeney is opposed to an entrenched Charter of Rights. Since other people are quoting Blakeney I can quote him. He is opposed to an entrenched Charter of Rights. 954

Friday, 20 February, 1981 The fact is I am opposed to this package and I vote more on the package than I vote on this clause, but I vote against this clause because it is part of the package and I cannot see a person being a member and not getting paid. The First Minister in the House has chosen to say that he is still a member and they have precluded him from taking his seat not he, he wants to sit here. MR. CHAIRMAN: (7) - pass. The Honourable Member for Winnipeg Centre. MR. J.R. (Bud) BOYCE: I am going to be very brief, Mr. Chairman.

My opposition to and the suggestions that 1 made were because, in my opinion and I'm not a lawyer, I don't think the sections in 19(1) or 19 and this one will hold in court. I don't believe that, because what the Member for Inkster said is true, if he's a member - we haven't defined member - I believe that if this whole thing is tested in court that it will not hold and that is why I opposed it, it's bad law. MR. CHAIRMAN: 7 - pass? QUESTION put on Clause 7 MOTION carried A MEMBER: Yeas and Nays. MR. CHAIRMAN: Call in the members. To the honourable members, you are voting on Clause 7 of Bill No. 3.

A COUNTED VOTE WAS TAKEN, the results being as follows: Yeas: 44; Nayes: 7. MR. CHAIRMAN: I declare Clause 7 passed;

Preamble - pass; Title - pass; Bill be reported - pass. Committee rise. Call in the Speaker. IN SESSION MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Radisson. MR. ABE KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker, I beg to move, seconded by the Honourable Member for Dauphin, report of Committee be received. MOTION presented and carried. THIRD READING - GOVERNMENT BILLS BILL NO. 3 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY ACT

(2) MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER presented Bill No. 3, by leave,

An Act to amend The Legislative Assembly Act (2) for third reading. MOTION presented and carried. MR. GREEN: Yeas and Nays, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Has the honourable member support? (Agreed) Call in the members. Order please. The Motion before the House is Third Reading of Bill No. 3,

An Act to amend The Legislative Act (2). YEAS Messrs. Adam, Anderson, Banman, Blake, Bostrom, Boyce, Brown, Cherniack, Cosens, Cowan, Craik, Doern, Domino, Downey, Driedger, Einarson, Enns, Evans, Ferguson, Filmon, Fox, Galbraith, Gourlay, Hyde, Jen­ kins, Johnston, Jorgenson, Kovnats, Lyon, MacMaster, McBryde, McGill, McGregor, McKenzie, Mercier, Miller, Minaker, Orchard, Parasiuk, Pawley, Mrs. Price, Messrs. Ransom, Schroeder, Sherman, Steen, Uruski, Uskiw, Ms. Westbury. NAYS Messrs. Corrin, Green, Walding. MR. CLERK: Yeas 48; Nays 3. MR. SPEAKER: I declare the Motion carried. BILL NO. 2 -

AN ACT TO AMEND THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY ACT MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER presented Bill No. 2, by leave,

An Act to amend The Legislative Assembly Act for third reading. MOTION presented and carried. ROYAL ASSENT DEPUTY SERGEANT-AT-ARMS (Mr. Myron Mason): His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor. HIS HONOUR, F. L. JOBIN, Lieutenant-Governor: I just want to explain that this is being done for my convenience because I am supposed to be at a Junior Citizens of the Year Awards, a group sponsored by the Pioneer group and the Community Newspaper Association and it's at 12:00 o'clock. The Premier was kind enough to say that he would try to fit it in, so I thank you very much. His Honour, Mr.

Frances L Jobin, the Lieutenant-Governor of the Province of Manitoba, having entered the House and being seated on the Throne, Mr. Speaker addressed His Honour in the following words: MR. SPEAKER: May it please Your Honour. The Legislative Assembly, at its present session, passed several bills, which in the name of the Assembly, I present to Your Honour and to which bills I respectfully request Your Honour's Assent. No. 2 -

An Act to amend The Legislative Assembly Act. No. 3 -

An Act to amend The Legislative Assembly Act

(2) No. 9 -

An Act to amend The Social Services Administration Act and to repeal The Blind Persons' Allowances Act and The Disabled Persons' Allowances Act. MR. CLERK, Jack Reeves: In Her Majesty's name, His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor doth assent to these bills. 955

Friday, 20 February, 1981 His Honour was then pleased to retire. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, I move, seconded by the Honourable Minister of Natural Resources that, Mr. Speaker. do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty.

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Highways and Transportation; and the Honourable Member for Virden in the Chair for the Department of Labour and Manpower. CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - LABOUR AND MANPOWER MR. CHAIRMAN, Morris McGregor (Virden): I call the committee to order and maybe I need a little guidance as to when we should start and maybe I can call on the Minister for a comment regarding what his thoughts are. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Mr.

Chairman, I see no members of the Opposition, the NDP, here and the Opposition critic isn't here. I would ask that you hold for a few minutes if you would please till they arrive on the scene. Mr. Chairman, the primary responsibility of the Women's Bureau is to assist women in employment by providing career counselling on an individual and group basis and for providing an information service on women in work to the public. The girls' objective is to make women aware of their skills and abilities so that they may find satisfying employment.

The bureau helps women to overcome problems they have in finding employment and encourages women to seek non-traditional work. In the past two or three years with an increase in counselling staff the bureau has been able to consolidate their services and to work effectively with large numbers of women. Group counselling sessions have been fully registered and are offered at least four times a year to two groups each time. Among the program highlights of the 1980-81 fiscal year have been a public seminar entitled "Management, Mother and Mentor" held in November.

Joint programs with Brandon University, Effective Women in Law for Women, Women in Management, Money Management for Women, bureau participation in the Women and Apprenticeship Program with the director being the member of the co-ordinating committee and one staff person being involved with the recruitment of the selection process and orientation and support program. Staffing - with respect to staffing complement of the bureau last year, there were seven staff years and we are requesting seven staff years for 1981-82.

These seven staff years are filled by eight persons since two part-time persons occupy one staff man year. There are currently no vacancies. That's the opening remarks. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN, Lloyd G. Hyde (Portage Ia Prairie): The Member for The Pas. MR. RONALD McBRYDE: Could the Minister give us some idea of the seven positions, what are the functions of each of those? Are eight - I guess seven positions is what . . . MR. MacMASTER: One is a director, three are counsellors, a program development officer, program development officer counsellor in Brandon and administrative secretaries.

I should say for the official critic that we held for a few minutes and all I've done now is just given my opening remarks. MR. McBRYDE: The Minister has in the staff somewhere a special advisor in terms of women's issues? If that's not in this section, then somewhere else in the . . . ? MR. MacMASTER: No, it isn't, we dealt with that yesterday. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson. My apologies for not having been here a bit sooner; however, I was held up on another matter and I thank the Minister for waiting that short period of time for my arrival.

I'd like to talk briefly about the Advisory Council, just one quick question to the Minister. I know we passed it yesterday but I was reviewing the Estimates of the Women's Bureau for 1980 and the Minister at that time said that he would consider appointing a man to the Advisory Council on the Status of Women for Manitoba. He said and these are his words, "that it might not be a bad situation, in fact it might be a good situation," that's a quote from him. And then he said that it had been done in other jurisdictions.

I would just ask the Minister, and I know we're backtracking a bit but it is a part of the whole realm of the work of the Women's Bureau, if he can indicate what turned him away from that original position of last year. MR. MacMASTER: The overwhelming qualifications I guess of those that were submitted ended up surpassing any thoughts that I might personally have had about a good idea, or not a good idea; and in addition no men did apply. MR. COWAN: I thank the Minister for that answer. Perhaps we can talk about the specifics as we have done in the past.

First, of the activities of the Women's Bureau, we've gone over the number of counselling sessions, group counselling sessions, individual counselling sessions, seminars, studies that were done, perhaps the Minister could update us as to those types of activities of the Women's Bureau during the past 12 months. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, there were approximately 31 individual counselling sessions a month in the neighborhood of 373 during the course of the year in 1979 and in 1980 it went up to 594 which is approximately 50 per month.

Group counselling on Traces and Changes, there were three in '79, there were approximately 66, pardon me, 956

Friday, 20 February, 1981 approximately six, period. In 1980 - Public Seminars, there were three in Winnipeg, in 1980 there were four in Brandon, two in Fort Garry and there was one held in Thompson, and there were four held in conjunction with the Civil Service Commission. Requests for information approximately 1,600, longer more detailed requests approximately 150. One study took place. Displays - there were four displays, approximately 50 speaking engagements. An estimate of attendance at those speaking engagements was approximately 1,100 to 1,200 people; that I think by and large covers . . . MR.

COWAN: It shows a considerable increase in the activity of the Women's Bureau over the past year if you'd compare the statistics to the previous year and although it's difficult sometimes to make a direct comparison because we change the description of our sessions and description of the activities from time to time, I think that the trend certainly appears to be much greater activity and that we welcome because as we've discussed with the Minister in the past on this particular department, that it is necessary that this department play a very agressive role and provide outreach services to persons who are . . . to women in specific who are entering the idea of coming back into the labour force after an absence or entering the labour force for the first time.

We all know of the difficulties that confront them when they make that choice. I wonder if the Minister could be more specific as to the study which was done last year, if he can provide us with the title of the study and perhaps even a copy of the study, if it's available. MR. MacMASTER: The title of the study was 'Women and Teaching'. I will get a copy of the study for the Member, maybe within the next few minutes or certainly by Monday. MR.

COWAN: I wonder if the Minister could provide us with some details as to who received a copy of that study, where it went out and what action he is taking to ensure its greatest distribution. MR. MacMASTER: I am advised that the total composite of the study isn't put together. 1 could, on an interim basis I suppose, give the Member for Churchill an interim sort of report on it Monday. When the copy is completed, then I am quite prepared to distribute it. MR. COWAN: Where would that be distributed among the general public as a matter of course? MR.

MacMASTER: I don't have the precise mailing list which the Women's Bureau uses for this information, but it's certainly far flung across the entire province to a good many organizations and it's well known that it's available upon request. MR. COWAN: Would the Minister entertain a request from myself for a copy of the mailing list so that we can make some suggestions as to where that mailing list might be able to be improved? MR. MacMASTER: No problem. MR. COWAN: I thank the Minister for that.

Does the Minister have with him a copy of the pamphlet which his department puts out, not under this particular division, but generally entitled Manitoba Labour Laws? MR. MacMASTER: I don't have that with me but I can get that copy if . . . MR. COWAN: The reason I asked it under this particular item is that we had discussed it in the past under this item in 1980 and we discussed in specific how it applied to equal pay for work of equal value and at that time had some lengthy discussions on that; I didn't have it before me at that time.

Since that time I've had an opportunity to review that pamphlet and I believe it was the latest edition of that pamphlet but I would like to see what the Minister is circulating as the latest edition of that pamphlet so that I can make certain that mine was in fact a more recent vintage. The problem with it and I checked it over for sexist language right from the beginning and found that for the most

part it was written in the most non-sexist way possible. However when it came to one

section and I believe it was the

section dealing with equal pay for work of equal value there was one slip and 1 would like to point it out to the Minister because I think it's something that can be corrected fairly easily during the next printing - that is it was talking about women and their employers and it was the only place in the entire pamphlet that it slipped into a sexist connotation and when it said when speaking to the employer it referred to the male gender singley and solely and it looked as if the author of that pamphlet had been so careful in the other areas to avoid that sort of problem that it jumped out, jumped off the page at myself during the initial reading.

So I'd ask the Minister if he could check that, it's not a major point, but it certainly is a point which I think can be fairly easily corrected and might in fact make that pamphlet a bit better pamphlet for that reason. So I would ask him if he can check that and report back to us as to whether or not it has been changed in printings as of recent and, if not, give us a commitment to make that one minor - and I want to impress upon the Minister that I don't want to make this a big deal - correction which in fact may improve the pamphlet. MR.

MacMASTER: I'll have to look at the pamphlet and I'll get back; I'll get a copy of the latest back and I'll bring my own comments with it. MR. COWAN: I'd appreciate that because as the Minister knows, we have to direct our attention to the whole subject of sexist connotations which are built into our language traditionally and I think one of the activities of the Women's Bureau has been to try to as best as possible deal with that particular problem.

It's a problem that tends to continue sexist opinions in society and it's a problem in the textbooks, it's a problem in the general language that we use and one which demands a certain amount of attention. So I would hope that we'd have an opportunity to perhaps discuss that in a bit more detail once we have the pamphlet before us. It might not be necessary if in fact the pamphlet has been amended or altered since the copy I received was distributed. Last year, around this time we talked about a report on occupational health and safety which the 957

Friday, 20 February, 1981 Women's Bureau was conducting. It was a study and at that time the Minister indicated that it was in draft form and would be completed shortly thereafter, at which point it would be distributed to the appropriate parties. I hope the Minister can provide us with some update as to the status of that report, a copy of that report if possible, and also a list of where that report was mailed. MR. MacMASTER: I'm advised by the Director of the Women's Bureau that the data itself became out of date and in fact outdated and that document is now invalid. MR.

COWAN: Is the only reason that document is invalid because the data base was outdated? In other words, the question specifically is, were there other reasons for not publishing that particular document? MR. MacMASTER: None that I've been informed of. In fact, I was just informed now that the data base became unreal as it related to now and that the document will not be finalized. MR. COWAN: Would the Minister be prepared to provide us with a copy of the unapproved and unfinalized report on occupational health and safety that was undertaken by the department a number of years ago? MR.

MacMASTER: I'll take that into consideration and get back to the member. If the information - and I'm just speaking off the top of my head because I haven't seen it - but if it is too outdated and incorrect and misleading as it applies to anything that relates to today, then maybe it shouldn't be filed, I don't know. MR. COWAN: Well, I assure the Minister that I would use it with discretion. I would just like an opportunity to take a look at the document. The Minister indicated last year that would be in fact a possibility once the document was completed.

I'm certain that he didn't anticipate that betwixt and between the initial study the publication and the study that the material would become outdated. But I can assure the Minister if that is the only problem with that particular study that I cannot see any reason for not providing a copy to the Opposition to review.

We would not of course put it out for the consumption of the general public and if the Minister was worried about that, it would be an easy enough task to stamp each page "unpublished document, data out of date" in which case there would be no possible repercussions that would be following him at a later date for having put out a document which contained outdated data. I can assure the Minister that when reviewing the whole area of occupational Health and Safety, it's very difficult to come up with data of recent vintage.

You're always dealing with data that is a couple of years old at any rate because as the Minister knows it's such a complex area, so complicated, that it is difficult to stay on top of all the new studies that are being done and it's difficult to gain access to the latest statistics although that is improving somewhat as different parties co-operate together at the federal and provincial level and internationally in providing those sort of statistics. So I don't see where the fact that the report is using data that is somewhat out of date would be a major problem in distribution to this committee.

As a matter of fact as I think about it, I had asked the Minister why it became out of date in such a short period of time, what statistical base were they using which was a valid base last year when we talked about this particular subject, but is not a valid base this year? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, I think I'm going to have to wait to see the report to see what the Women's Bureau's concerns are with it before I comment further on it. MR. COWAN: The Minister has the staff beside him in this room and I would hope that they would be able to provide him with complete information at this point.

Perhaps he can ask them if in fact the only reason that report was not publicized was that the data was out of date and that there were no other reasons which would cause that report not to be published. MR. MacMASTER: Well, I've assured the member once and I'll assure him once more and that will be the final time, that is the information which I have been given that the data was out of date. MR. DEPUTY MINISTER: The Minister of Churchill. MR. COWAN: The Member for Churchill, Mr. Chairperson, but I thank you for the promotion. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: First and last time. MR. COWAN: Only time will tell.

Speaking to the report on Occupational Health and Safety, I would ask the Minister what years were used as a data base for the statistics for that report. MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, again, I'm going to have to have a look at the report and see myself what the details are and what the problems are perceived by the Women's Bureau. MR. COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairperson.

Well, speaking to the general area of studies, there have been according to my statistics three studies done in '73, two studies done in '74, three in '75, one in '76, one in '77, none in '78 and of course this study on Review in Aging - I'm not certain about '79. I'd ask the Minister if that is an accurate list of the studies that have been done by the department and if he can provide us with a copy of all those studies that have been distributed to the general public. MR. MacMASTER: I think some are public now but I'll go back and precisely get a bundle of those reports and give them to the member. MR.

COWAN: I'd appreciate that. As well we might be able to save some time here and I'll jump way ahead if I can just to make one specific request and that's if the Minister can bring with him reports that have been put out by his department as we get to the general areas of discussion so that we can have a look at them. It would be even better if the Minister could provide them all to us as soon as is 958

Friday, 20 February, 1981 possible so that we can have an opportunity to review them before we get to that specific department. However I know that might be a somewhat difficult task and we would appreciate at the very least having them in front of us as we come to the specific department. In this instance I know that we're asking for reports that go back a number of years, I wouldn't expect that in the other departments, I would just ask the Minister if he could bring us all those reports which were made for public distribution during the last year since we last discussed those items in Estimates. MR.

MacMASTER: I'd be very surprised if yourself and your caucus hasn't got copies of everything. It's been my direction that everything be sent to the caucus to all Members of the Legislature. Now, we may find something that hasn't been but that's the general policy in our department. MR.

COWAN: Perhaps it hasn't been making its way to me but I know there are a number of reports such as the reports that are put out by the research department that I have not got and there are a number that I've made a special request for, such as the Report on Collective Bargaining, advances which were made in the province during the last year and I find those to be very useful and informative and well put together reports. However I know that the Minister for example, and I know we're a bit off topic but the Minister did suggest that there was a standard procedure which does not appear to have been followed.

The monthly Labour Research Reports which come out of the Research Department have not been forwarded to our caucus, or at least to myself individually I know, and I don't believe they've been forwarded to our caucus on a regular basis; neither have other reports been forwarded. I know I just directed one of our staff today to call up the Minister's department to request a number of reports which were listed in the last edition of the Government Publications pamphlet that comes out which lists all the government publications over the past number of months.

So I would hope the Minister would check that within his own department to see if in fact his directive which I'm certain he has given, is being adhered to because there is a problem somewhere in that regard. MR. MacMASTER: I can assure the member that there's not a list of shall do, shan't do, shall go, can't go. Information that we put out is to the best of my knowledge sent to all members of the Legislature, the NDP caucus, and to the Liberal member, and to the Independent member.

If there is information that isn't getting through, I'll check with my staff when I get back and find out, because there is no precise rationale within my mind, or within our department, of things that do or don't go, it's just they go. MR. COWAN: It's that specific subject, Mr.

Chairperson, are we talking about those reports which are made by the committees, which are made by the Minister himself such as the Annual Report, such as the Cam Maclean Committee report, such as the Workers Compensation Report, are we talking about those reports which are compiled by the department itself such as the monthly labour statistics research reports? MR. MacMASTER: don't know precisely if there's a major difference. I know that all publications we put out certainly go to everybody.

I suspect that there may be some type of internal reporting that flows throughout the system that isn't distributed at large but information in a report, precisely that form, that's an annual thing or a monthly thing, that by and large goes out to everybody that wants it or anybody certainly, that requests it. I don't have a standing rule that every cotton picking thing people put together within the department flows out, but there is no limitation to my knowledge of information being withheld in any way from our department. MR.

COWAN: I am not suggesting, and I hope the record is clear, that the Minister is not withholding from the Opposition materials which generally go out publicly.

The point I am trying to make and I think it's a matter of just speaking with this department on this particular item, is that there are certain reports which are going out to the general public which I can assure him are not coming to the Opposition individual members, and I don't believe are coming to the Opposition caucus as a matter of course, and if the Minister is stating that he has a policy of providing those reports automatically to all members of the Legislature or just to the caucuses and the independents if he thinks that's a more appropriate way to go about the distribution of them to members of the Legislature, then we support him in that policy.

We are only talking about those reports which are generally distributed to the public or upon request from the department. We are not asking for internal memos. MR. MacMASTER: I'll find out why that's not happening, Mr. Chairman. MR. COWAN: I thank the Minister for that and support him in his efforts to ensure that happens because it is a very important part of our work that is, trying to keep on top of those reports and all the new information which is becoming available, and trying to review it and research it.

I thank him for his consideration and wish him luck in ensuring that happens within his own department. During the Estimates last year we talked about the area of women entering into apprenticeship programs within the Government of Manitoba, and at that time the Minister indicated he did not know of any women that were in the apprenticeship program with the government, but that he didn't see any reason why they should not be - women in the apprenticeship program.

That is not to say that there weren't women, it was just to say that it was an area that the Minister did not have the statistics with him at the present time. I'd ask him if he is able to provide us with more details and specifics as to the number of women in the apprenticeship programs in the Government of Manitoba and what activity he is taking to ensure more active participation by women in those programs. MR. MacMASTER: Without trying to bog down anything technically, I wonder if we could agree that the apprenticeship come under Apprenticeship.

We have a whole host of stats and figures and material that we are quite prepared to make available under that particular heading. 959

Friday, 20 February, 1981 MR. COWAN: Certainly, there is no difficulty with that. I would, for clarification, ask the Minister if we should be discussing the women into trades program at that particular time as well. He indicates, yes, and we will be doing so. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Logan. MR. WILLIAM JENKINS: Mr. Chairman, at this point I want to just ask a few questions of the Minister. Does the Women's Bureau have any input on apprenticeship training programs? Are there any women on the apprenticeship training committee? MR.

MacMASTER: Again, that's under Apprenticeship, but quickly so we can get by it - (Interjection)- Well, if I can finish, I may help you. MR. JENKINS: At the instigation of the Women's Bureau ... MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. MacMASTER: It is better discussed under Apprenticeship, but just to get by the point the answer is no, and the rationale for the answer is that we have asked for nominees for all the individual boards and have received no nominees from any of the trades organizations or industrial side of the structure that included women's names. MR. JENKINS: I thank the Minister.

In your report here, it states on page 79, under the Women's Bureau, that because women have been voicing their anxieties about this subject, this is Training and Employment, the Bureau have scheduled an evening seminar aimed at workers and women re-entering the labour force. Now I would like to ask the Minister if the Women's Bureau has been active in the field of separated and divorced spouses under the Family Law legislation that we have in force in Manitoba, where it is possible for women to re-enter the work force, so that they can become independent.

Is the Bureau itself working with - I guess it would be the Attorney-General's department - to get in contact with separated spouses or divorced spouses, making them aware of what opportunities are available for retraining for re-entry into the work force, because if these people in - I don't want to be sexist but because we're dealing with the Women's Bureau, and I realize that divorced spouses can be on either side, but I realize that's not the function of the Women's Bureau to look after those of the male sex, but I would hope that the Women's Bureau would be active in this field, making these people aware of what opportunities are available to them for retraining, and I would like the Minister to enlighten the committee if the Women's Bureau has been active in this field.

MR. MacMASTER: If the member had turned that around and made that a statement instead of question, he would have been completely correct. The Women's Bureau works very closely with the Attorney-General's office. They do in fact counsel women and assist women and work with them during that immediate period of turmoil within the family when - following divorces and breakups. That's an established routine and there are good communications between the Women's Bureau and the Attorney-General's office. MR.

JENKINS: Could the Minister then enlighten the committee what financial help is there forthcoming for people in retraining, federally and provincially - if he could enlighten the committee on just what is available for people in this unfortunate circumstance? MR. MacMASTER: Again, not wanting to be picky, but in the training development apprenticeship, that whole

section of Manpower Division, there's a whole host of programs that we'll attempt to lay out for the Member for Logan if he would allow us to get into that, because I assure him it's impossible to take a part of it without leading to another part, and leading to another part. It's a very comprehensive, not complete, but fairly comprehensive set of opportunties that are available for people to get training and upgrading and refresher courses.

The Women's Bureau certainly work with the women as it relates to how they are going to apply, how to present themselves, resumes; may in fact assist them in conjunction with others as to possible employment opportunities, so it's a combination of a good number of things, Mr. Chairman. MR. JENKINS: I quite appreciate the Minister, and I'm not trying to be obstinate. What I really wanted to know is does the Women's Bureau and the Minister's department have anything special for those spouses out of the ordinary than would be available say to other women who are not in that unfortunate circumstance.

Are there any special programs and assistance that are designed specifically for those - and some of these women have been out of the work force for 20 to 25 years and it's a very difficult readjustment to get back into the world of work after that many years, and maybe even before they were married, didn't possess many of the job skills that would be required even at that time and so, what we are looking at is perhaps educational upgrading, as well as - it could be apprenticeship programs, it could be on-the-job training, it could be various things.

What I want to know, is there anything that the Women's Bureau itself, over and above, because these are a special category of people, they are not people that are in the work force that who want retraining for something else; many of the them have not had the marketable job skills even when they entered the field of matrimony, and it can be 20 to 25 years; when we look at the papers we some are even longer. What I really wanted to find out from the Minister is just what is the Women's Bureau doing in this respect for - and I realize it's a special category of people - over and above what they do for the general.

MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Chairman, during the counselling stages, it's determined by the Women's Bureau the type of abilities, the qualifications that the person has, the possibilities of types of upgrading courses that could be available to that particular person. Our Women's Bureau works very close with Red River Community College in establishing criteria for programs that would suit women in that particular 960

Friday, 20 February, 1981 type of need and in other needs, because there are some similarities to women in their first re-entry after a period of time; the first re-entry into the work force. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The Member for Churchill. MR. COWAN: Last year, I believe, on International Women's Day, the Minister had participated in some activities, or perhaps it was the year before.

As we are now approaching International Women's Day again, I believe it's in the next month, I'd ask the Minister if he can provide us with details as to any activities which the Women's Bureau will be participating in, in respect to the celebration of that day, and any activities which he himself might be particpating in, in respect to the celebration of that important event for women, not only provincially and nationwide but also internationally. MR. MacMASTER: The Women's Bureau will be on a TV program. They will be having Open House themselves, and I understand that they are putting on a number of displays.

MR. COWAN: I would hope the Minister could be more detailed in his response as to where those displays will be and what the nature of the displays will be. MR. MacMASTER: There will be one at Unicity Mall on February 28th. There will be slide shows, tape shows and a varied amount of literature that will be given out at that particular display. MR. COWAN: And that display will be concerned specifically with International Women's Day? MR. MacMASTER: Yes, it will. MR. COWAN: What about on the day (Interjection)- I'm sorry I jumped ahead of you there, Mr. Chairperson.

My question to the Minister is, what about the activities on the specific day itself. MR. MacMASTER: The Women's Bureau is having a program on TV that particular day. MR. COWAN: That is the only activity that they will be participating in on the specific day, is a TV program? Perhaps the Minister could be more detailed as to the specifics of that program. MR. M.acMASTER: It will be a 15-minute program describing the work of the Bureau. MR. COWAN: What would be the specific date of the program, Mr. Chairperson? MR. MacMASTER: March 8th. MR. COWAN: Which is International Women's Day.

I am a bit disappointed that there isn't more public participation by the Division and in specific by the Women's Bureau in response to International Women's Day. It was a practice, and I would hesitate to say the word tradition, because I don't think there has been enough time to develop traditional responses to specifics such as this. But it was a practice in the past to participate more fully in the activities.

If I recollect correctly, I think I recall seeing the Minister at one of those activities last year or the year before, and I think that's an important public participation in the celebration by the Minister and would hope that when looking at next year, that the Bureau may be able to more actively involve itself in activities that are ongoing in the province as well as perhaps initiate a number of activities for fuller public participation. MR. MacMASTER: The event that the Member for Churchill saw me at was Person's Day. MR. COWAN: I stand corrected; I thank the Minister for that.

He's absolutely right, it was Person's Day. That begs a number of questions but I resist the temptation to ask those specific questions. I just would want to know from the Minister now, and again before passing onto the next subject, I would encourage him to have discussions with his department in regards to having a very active public profile by the government and by the Women's Bureau on Women's Day in the future.

Perhaps it's a bit too late to do anything in respect to this year's activities, but it would be nice to have some sort of formalized, and traditional, as time passes on, a response to the celebration by the Women's Bureau. I think it's an important event and one which is worthy of that sort of activity. On a different matter, I would ask the Minister if he can inform us as to whether any private consulting firms or private consultants were used by the Women's Bureau for studies or for research in the previous year. MR. MacMASTER: Not to my knowledge, Mr. Chairman. MR.

COWAN: That will be a question that we will be asking as we go through each department. I'd just give the Minister notice of it so that he can have his staff prepare an answer to it. Or if he wants to provide us with a list of any consultants which were used generally, in one itemized list, we would welcome that as a way of expediting activities of the committee, but that is a subject area that we will want to discuss. I'm not saying that they did use private consultants, I would just like to know if in fact they were used and under what circumstances if they were hired by this particular department.

I would ask the Minister this department has been conducting any surveys as to the entry of women into the labour force, what occupational classifications they are entering, and what wage rates they are encountering in comparison to wage rates paid to male counterparts in similar activities when they do enter the work force. MR. MacMASTER: No, we are not, Mr. Chairman. MR. COWAN: This is an area that the Minister has mentioned quite often in response to statements and debates and discussions in the House and in committee.

The Minister in the past has said that he was quite proud of his government's record in regard to more active participation by women in the labour force within this province. I would ask him therefore where he is obtaining the information which gives 961

Friday, 20 February, 1981 cause to that pride, which may in fact be justified; I'm not certain. But who is doing the research which provides him with the specifics that he seems to be aware of in respect to the greater participation by women in Manitoba's labour force? MR. MacMASTER: I have to correct the member; haven't made reference to greater participation by women in the work force in Manitoba.

I have said very emphatically there's greater participation in a lot of what once was totally male jobs within the Civil Service. and when the Commission comes up I think we can supply a list of 20 some odd positions that are now filled by women within the Manitoba Government that were never filled by them before. That will be coupled with a large list of training programs that are available to women within the Civil Service, and I have said many times that I don't think you can go outside and throw rocks at somebody else's house until you get your own in shape. We believe ours is getting there.

As I also mentioned yesterday, the Advisory Council on the Status of Women are going to be advising me on whether the courses that we are running, that we believe in all fairness to the Civil Service Commission, are reasonably adequate, but that will be reviewed and we may have to even make some changes there. MR. COWAN: What the Minister is saying now is that he does not know whether or not there is greater participation in Manitoba's general labour force by women over the past number of years. Is that correct? MR.

MacMASTER: No, that is not correct; that isn't what I said now, and I have said the contrary before, there is greater participation. The facts that the members gets - federal stats, provincial slats, all show that there is greater participation by women in the work force. MR. COWAN: Has the Minister directed the department to study the types of jobs which women are obtaining in the province, the rates of pay, and the differences in compensation paid to women and men for work of a similar nature? MR. MacMASTER: We haven't at this particular time.

Your Canada Manitoba Manpower Committees are certainly looking at the whole host of employment, employment opportunities, training programs, as they relate to all people in Manitoba, and eventually will have a better idea of what's happening in the labour force in Manitoba. We are getting into all the time more - well, there's been a greater concentrated effort on trying to establish what really is taking place within the Manitoba work force, and of course we're new at it. Some provinces haven't even started it and some are ahead of us.

That type of data will certainly be forthcoming in the years ahead, and I don't mean 10 or 15, but as the Manpower Needs Committee in the province in conjunction with the Federal people have a better look at the type of programs that are in place, that kind of information is going to flow from that. MR. COWAN: As it stands today, there is no way, or there is no document which would be able to outline to us, which has been prepared by the Women's Bureau, or any other department of the government, the details of where women are entering the work force.

Are they entering in larger numbers in part-time jobs or full-time jobs; are they entering at wage levels which are comparable to their male counterparts who are entering the work force; are they staying longer, are they staying shorter; what are their specific needs, the needs that they are confronting which could be satisfied by government programs?

That's a long question but the nub of it is that there does not appear to be any specific activity by the Bureau in respect to trying to paint a picture, if you will, of the path of entry, the ways of entry, and the problems which women are experiencing as they enter the work force. MR. MacMASTER: There is no precise data available at the moment but as I said, there's a variety of ways that situation is being looked at, not precisely as the member has asked.

The Women's Bureau, as a matter of fact, is going to commence evaluating and following up on those that they have counselled to see where they went and how well they did and sort of keep with them, if that's the expression.

The Advisory Council on the Status of Women is concerned about these sort of areas too, and I understand that we may be getting a student this summer to get started on that type of review, and your Federal-Provincial committees are looking at some of those types of things, so there is not a precise document available today, but there are a variety of segments within government that's looking at it. MR. DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: The hour of 12:30 having arrived, committee rise, for Private Members' Hour. SUPPLY- HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): The committee will come to order.

I would direct the honourable members' attention to page 82 of the Main Estimates, Department of Highways and Transportation, Resolution No. 87, Clause (d),

(1) Salaries - pass - the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would ask the Minister if he could advise if there has been any changes in the composition of the Board - if he could put their names - advise us who sits on the Highway Traffic Board. MR. DON ORCHARD (Pembina): If I might, Mr. Chairman, I'll deal with the Taxicab Board first.

There has been no change in the government's appointments on that Taxicab Board, but there is a change in the city representation from Councillor Provost, to Councillor Burke and I'm not sure of the status of the Winnipeg City Police representative on the Taxicab Board. I believe it has changed as well. The Highway Traffic Board, we have a chairman in charge of the Highway Traffic Board, Mr. Eric Lansky, and no further new appointments to the Highway Traffic Board. In the Motor Transport Board we have a new chairman. Mr. John Kinley, as chairman of the Motor 962

Friday, 20 February, 1981 Transport Board, and one new member in the person of Mr. Eric Lansky, who is serving on both boards. MR. ADAM: I wonder, Mr. Chairman, if the Minister could advise us how many meetings were held, how many hearings were held, by the different boards, how many were held out in the rural areas as opposed to meetings held in Winnipeg. Perhaps the Minister could advise also where the meetings are held in Winnipeg and he could tell us perhaps, if the meetings are held at 1075 Portage Avenue, and if there are not he could tell us where they are being held, and what is the cost per day. MR.

ORCHARD: The information on the number of hearings held by all boards was contained in my opening remarks, Mr. Chairman. The Highway Traffic Board, the Motor Transport Board, the Taxicab Board, the Licence Suspension Appeal Board, are not at 1075 Portage, but at Weston Street. MR. ADAM: Is this a government building, Mr. Chairman, or is this a . . . MR. ORCHARD: Leased accommodation, Mr. Chairman. MR. ADAM: Could the Minister advise what the rent is to the government for the purpose of these hearings? MR. ORCHARD: I would ask the Member for Ste.

Rose to address that question to the Minister of Government Services when his Estimates appear. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. MR. ENNS: Not to intervene in the Minister's Salaries, but I wonder if he could confirm that with the additional space being made available by the migration of Highways out of 1075 Portage, is it not the plan of the department to at some time in the future following renovations to enable some of the boards such as Highway Traffic Board, the Motor Board, to move into the facilities at 1075 Portage? MR. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, that possibility is being investigated right now. MR. ADAM: I wonder if the Minister could advise how many rate increases there have been this year as far as the rates are concerned for trucking, and what increases have taken place and are there any applications at the present time for further increases, or is this done once a year, or do they apply every six months, or what happens when the trucking association want a rate increase in view of the fact that there are cost increases now, higher fuel costs and higher costs for trucks and tractors and so on.

Does he anticipate that there will be further increases in the coming year? MR. ORCHARD: There was one rate increase last year, and there will be a rate increase, certainly, this year. MR. ADAM: I wonder if he could advise what that increase was last year, I don't know if the Minister can tell us what the increase will be this year, but perhaps he could tell us if knows what the Association is requesting. MR. ORCHARD: I don't have knowledge of what the Association is requesting, Mr. Chairman. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, does the Minister have a figure for what the increase was this past year? MR.

ORCHARD: percent. believe it was approximately 9.5 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, I did ask a question yesterday of the Minister as to where the Legislative authority is for the Motor Transport Board, and I must say that on his way out, the Minister tried to help me by saying that it's in

part 8 of The Highway Traffic Act, and I've looked through

part 8, and I cannot find the Motor Transport Board, and I have the Act. If the member is looking for the Act, I can tell him that I have it, and I then want to inform the Minister that I was again trying to get that information from his Deputy Minister and from Mr. Dygala as they were leaving, and they said 298(1) of The Highway Traffic Act, which I am aware of, and 298(1) says, "There is hereby established a board which shall be known as the Highway Transport Board" and my request was as to where there is specific legislative creation of a Motor Transport Board and when I asked Mr.

Dygala this - I want to be entirely fair - he said, "I don't have the amendment." So I looked - this is by the way the legislative copy of the House copy of the statutes, which I think are kept up to date. They are the same as my own copy of the statutes and I may be missing something, but I do not see in The Highway Traffic Act, which I'm going to pass over to ...

Perhaps the Minister's copy will read differently, in which case I will have my answer, but I find at the moment in any event that there is no . . . at least I can't find specific legislative authority for an entity, which is known as the Motor Transport Board and I wonder if the Minister is able to help me in that respect. It's 298.1 - Perhaps there's an amendment there that I've missed. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, I believe the amendment that the member has referred is simply a name change from the Highway Transport Board to the Motor Transport Board. MR.

GREEN: There is still a Highway Traffic Board and there is a Motor Transport Board, and I wonder if the Minister can find that amendment that he is referring to. If you look at 291 you will see the - at least I think you will see the same as the House Statutes contain. MR. CHAIRMAN: Might I suggest to the honourable members that all the proceedings are being recorded. When a member sits or leaves his place and keeps on talking some of the words are not recorded and I would just, as a reminder, advise the honourable members of the procedure. 963

Friday, 20 February, 1981 The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN: I wonder if the Minister's Act is different than the House Act which says 298.1, "There is hereby established a Board which shall be known as the Highway Transport Board. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, my Act indicates the same Highway Transport Board. MR. GREEN: That being the case, Mr. Chairman, I would like to know where is the legal authority for an entity known as the Motor Transport Board?

We have some people calling themselves the Motor Transport Board, which has considerable powers and has been given considerable weight to, and I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm saying I can't find it. That might be perhaps the problem on my part, but I now ask the Minister to find it and I'm not trying to be unfair to the Minister. He would be just as in a difficult position as I am. Surely there must be some place where the Highway Transport Board, which has legal authority, in accordance with a statute and in the absence of that statute there is no authority has been made into a Highway Traffic Board.

I wonder if the Minister can find me authority for the Highway Traffic Board. We have in the Act 298.1 the Highway Transport Board. We have in his Estimates the Highway Traffic Board and the Motor Transport Board, but we have no Highway Transport Board. So for the moment, until the Minister is able to find it, we have two entites here which are not mentioned in the statute and we have an entity mentioned in the statute which is not mentioned in the Estimates. I wonder if the Minister is able to deal with that or whether he wants me to wait until he is able to get further information on it. MR.

ORCHARD: The member made mention to the Highway Traffic Board, which I believe has jurisdiction given to it under provisions of The Highways Protection Act, if I can find my proper ... The Highways Traffic Board is legislative authority under either Highways Department or Highways Protection Act rather than Highway Traffic Act. MR. GREEN: The Highway Traffic Board is established under some other Act. I wonder if the Minister, not now but when he is able to get those people who will do that research for him, will show me where the Highway Traffic Board is mentioned in some piece of legislation.

I would assume that it is but I will take it that the Minister will be able to get his staff to tell me where it is. Now, Mr. Chairman, I want to indicate in my remarks that I am trying to co-operate with the Minister and I believe that the Minister and his predecessors have certainly done their best to give me consideration in the matters which I am raising so I'm not here to criticize them, I believe that I am here to help them, but I will indicate, Mr. Chairman, that I believe that there are some serious problems relating to the Motor Transport Board and relating to what it is supposed to do.

Now for the moment I am proceeding as if there is a Motor Transport Board. I have appeared before them. I have been in court involving them, I am speaking as if there is one, even though I've not yet been able to find it, I am proceeding as if there is one. My first series of questions to the Minister, which I'll say in the form of rhetorical questions, is why should there be one? Now it may be that there is none.

It may be that this whole thing is a mirage, that it doesn't exist and that there is no legislative authority for it and that the person who didn't ... and the fact that it doesn't exist makes better sense than the suggestion that it does exist, because at the moment I can't find legislation for it. It's there, but maybe it shouldn't be there, Mr. Chairman, and maybe that is the essence of the question - why do we have a Motor Transport Board? I am talking, Mr.

Chairman, to my friends in the Conservative Party, who believe in free enterprise, who believe in competition, who believe in the fact that there should be as little regulation as possible that there should be regulation only consistent, Mr. Chairman, with the need to protect one citizen from having his rights offended by another. Before I get into full swing I notice Mr. Brako is here, I wonder if he can now supply the Minister with the amendment of the legislation which created the Motor Transport Board. MR. ORCHARD: Mr.

Chairman, the reference in 298.1 under Transport Board as a general heading is to be amended in this Session to denote in

Section 298.1 instead of the Highway Transport Board, the Motor Transport Board, both of which, Mr. Chairman, receive, if the Honourable Member for Inkster and I know he already has done this would refer to

Part 8 of the The Highway Traffic Act under

Section 255.1 where it indicates supervision of Transport Board over motor carriers not Highway Transport Board, Motor Transport Board but Transport Board and implicit in the legislation is the reference that the Transport Board is the one and the same as is the Highway Traffic Board as indicated in the Act 298.1, and Motor Transport Board as is to be amended in terms of title this year. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, now it is confirmed that I was right, and that when I was told yesterday by the administration that I don't have the amendment. There was no amendment, Mr. Chairman.

The Motor Transport Board, which for several years has been acting in a way which is entirely contrary in my view, to the interests of the citizens of Manitoba doesn't exist. There is no such animal as the Motor Transport Board. What we have is a group of people, who without legislative authority started to call themselves the Motor Transport Board and started to issue edicts in the name of the Motor Transport Board and started to enter appearances in the name of the Motor Transport Board.

When I asked this question yesterday, and the Minister is a man who wishes to be self-assured and I don't blame him for that, was certain that I had missed something, that you will find it, he said you will find it in

Part 8, but it's not in

Part 8. Then when I showed the administration that it's not in

Part 8, he said you're missing the amendment. Mr. Chairman, no wonder I'm missing the amendment there was no amendment. The Minister now gets up, and I'm not faulting him for this; I'm faulting, Mr. Chairman, the people who arbitrarily start saying that they are the Motor Transport Board. Now what I think happened, Mr. Chairman, is that the Chairman of the Highway Transport Board, and 964

Friday, 20 February, 1981 there was a Chairman of the Highway Transport Board, decided at a certain point without legislative authority that he's going to divide the board into two sections; one is going to be known as the Motor Transport Board and the other one is going to be known as some other board, and from then on proceeded without any legislative authority to operate on that basis and continued to operate on that basis, Mr. Chairman. I want to know from the Minister whether my supposition is not correct, that's what happened. MR.

ORCHARD: I can't confirm whether the member's supposition is correct or incorrect - that may well have happened. I'm not confirming or denying that. I would suspect if it happened it may well have happened several years back and certainly before the time in which I assumed responsibility. MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, absolutely no doubt of that. As a matter of fact I'm going to make a confession.

It may have happened when we were the administration, because when people get into little kingdoms and that they decide that they are laws unto their own they can do that to one administration or they can do it to another administration. But what we do know, Mr. Chairman, is that there was no amendment, that the amendment has being brought in during this Session of the Legislature and that the Motor Transport Board as a legal entity does not exist. The Honourable Minister is now bringing in a section, which is going to deal with that, but what about all the people and I've indicated, Mr.

Chairman, that I have a client who is affected by this, and I am dealing with this matter in the Legislature as a result of seeing what goes on and the Minister will not believe what goes on although I have kept him peripherally acquainted with the kind of thing that a Board of this kind will do and can do and has the power to do; it is scandalous. When the Minister says that it can be appealed to the Court of Appeal, I want to tell the Minister that can't happen. The Court of Appeal cannot undo the decision of the Motor Transport Board because it feels that it's wrong or it doesn't like it.

The Court of Appeal can only undo, or only recommend, it can't even undo; it can only tell the Motor Transport Board when it feels it is proceeding on a wrong principle of law. Do you know what the Motor Transport Board does when the Court of Appeal tells it that it is proceeding on a wrong principle of law? It tells the Court of Appeal, you don't know what you're talking about.

Despite the fact that we have mistreated these people, despite the fact that you have found that we have mistreated this man, despite the fact that we have been told in no uncertain terms that we have behaved badly, we will take those remarks and we're telling you that we're going to do exactly the same thing and you can't do anything about it and the Court of Appeal says we agree; we can't do anything about it, it's their jurisdiction.

So let the Minister be aware just so that there's no misunderstanding that if he feels an applicant has a right to an appeal from the decision of the Motor Transport Board that it's not an appeal from the wrongdoing that the Motor Transport Board may do; it is merely an appeal where the Appeal Court is entitled to tell the Motor Transport Board that it has erred in law but the Appeal Court has no right to change the decision of the Motor Transport Board, nor has the Supreme Court. I tell that to the Minister, Mr.

Chairman, because I believe that the Minister all along and his previous Minister, felt that if an injustice is done, that the citizen, in this case my particular applicant, is well represented, and I believe that they think that, that he will take this matter to appeal, that the Court of Appeal will correct the situation, and that the man is having everything done that is possible, and I am telling the Minister that it doesn't work that way.

That eventually the only way that redress can be obtained is to change the law and/or for the Minister to use the Ministerial prerogative to issue policy directions, which has been done with respect to certain things. Mr. Chairman, I start off by saying that there is no Motor Transport Board, and the Minister will have to admit it. He says that there is going to be amendment this year.

I want him to know that the Motor Transport Board has been operating under the title of the Motor Transport Board for at least three years and they have been doing that because when people get into those positions where they consider themselves kings, they do what they want to do, and that's exactly what the Motor Transport Board does, and feels that it cannot be told what to do by the government, cannot be told what to do by the courts, that it is a law unto themselves. Mr. Chairman, my question to the Minister is as follows: Why do we need a Motor Transport Board?

Why do we not say that the roads in the Province of Manitoba with regard to transportation service are available to those people who obey the law, who use equipment which is prescribed in the same way as you have a building code, that you have an equipment code, and that all citizens in the Province of Manitoba have the freedom to make arrangements with any other citizen of the Province of Manitoba. The Honourable Member for Rock Lake lives in Pilot Mound.

If I want to deliver merchandise to Pilot Mound; he doesn't live in Pilot Mound, he lives in the area; the Honourable Member for Swan River - it's a good name - in The Pas area.

If I have a truck that complies with provincial regulations, and he says I would like you to deliver to me some merchandise at a fee, it would be illegal for me to do it for him, until I got a licence from the Motor Transport Board to do it, and if I went to the Motor Transport Board to get a licence, they would tell the Member for Swan River, you can't get this man to do it, because there's another person whom we've given a licence who has the right to take it and you have to buy it through him.

Now I am certain, that kind of thinking does not commend itself to the members of the Conservative Party, and I am also certain that it does not commend itself to the members of the New Democratic Party, that it is a system of regulation which stems from the fact that the roads are a public utility, that if we do not have some regulation, then everybody will go broke and there will be bad transportation services to these communities, and perhaps, Mr. Chairman, that makes sense in certain areas.

But I am asking the Minister whether he has reviewed the matter recently; whether he has not considered, and I believe that it is in the Province of 965

Friday, 20 February, 1981 Alberta, a Conservative province, that there is no regulation; that you do have to have certain standards of equipment and other things. You have to comply with certain laws, but once you have done that it's the same as in the City of Winnipeg. In the City of Winnipeg you can run a delivery service provided you get a licence to run a service from the City of Winnipeg and you can transport goods from one place to another, and you will not be told that there are too many transportation companies, you will go in and compete with the other transportation companies. Mr.

Chairman, my particular experience with the Motor Transport Board, and we will get to that as to why this should be done, would indicate to me, and I believe that the Minister can go to other jurisdictions and find out, that he should give serious consideration, and I would like to hear his views on the question, to saying that public service vehicles in the Province of Manitoba will be on a straight competitive basis just as it is on winter roads, which he indicated; on winter roads, anybody can go there, and if you don't happen to need a licence to get there, that is if you happen to be in the place where one winter road connects to another, you don't even have to have a licence to get to the jumping off point.

Now the Motor Transport Board, to my surprise and to my somewhat chagrin, thwarted to some extent the policy that the government set with regard to winter roads, because our policy with regards to winter roads is that any trucker could go on the road. We did not at the time conceive that somebody would require a licence to get from Winnipeg to the place where you get to the road.

Although the Motor Transport Board has no authority over winter roads, they do have authority as to how you get from Winnipeg to 373, which is the place where the winter road started, and therefore they were able to restrict transportation on the winter road system because they could say, yes, it's okay, you can drive on the winter roads, but how are you going to get there - we won't let you get there. They assumed that authority although, Mr. Chairman, I didn't - never conceived of it when we opened up the winter roads for all trucking that there would be some difficulty as to the use of the winter road system.

But the intention with regard to the winter road system was that everybody would be able to use the winter roads. Mr. Chairman, what's wrong with the free enterprise system in connection with highway transportation? I would like the Minister, who I've heard get up on his feet and blast some of the proposals for orderly marketing - what was the debate that we had a couple of years ago, where we were talking about certain prices; and I really enjoyed listening to the Minister. I can't remember what - the commodity exchange - there we are, the commodity exchange.

I want to know the principles that the member ennunciated about the commodity exchange. What's wrong with free enterprise as between private carrier, because I will certainly say that there could be need for a public hearing, and if it's public, I would run it and own it as part of the public, rather than saying that somebody else should do it. I make that clear with the Gas Company and there are good reasons for doing that.

But if they're all private carriers, I would like the Minister to give me his ideas as to what's wrong with the free enterprise system in the use of our highways, which is used in the City of Winnipeg, why is it not good for the Province of Manitoba? Why do we have to protect a select group of carriers from competition in the use of the roads? Is it not a fact that the trend is to de-regulation? That has occurred in the Province of Alberta; that it has occurred in states in the United States, particularly with regard to the air industry, and that it's improved.

What's wrong with de-regulation in the trucking transportation industry in the Province of Manitoba? Will the Minister determine as to how this entity which does not exist in law, and which everybody, when I raised the question yesterday, everybody was trying to suggest that I must have a screw loose - mind you, I started to think maybe I do have a screw loose - but it isn't there. The Motor Transport Board does not exist and it's just proven that it does not exist by the fact that the Minister is going to have bring in an amendment this year to say that it does exist.

Now if it does exist, why do you need the amendment? And if you need the amendment, then it didn't exist for the past three years. MR. ORCHARD: Mr. Chairman, the Member for Inkster is making quite a number of statements in his presentation so far.

He indicated that the Manitoba Court of Appeal could not reverse a decision made by the Motor Transport Board, and not being well versed in legal terminology, I believe the intent of that statement is correct, and there are instances where decisions made by the Motor Transport Board have been appealed to the Manitoba Court of Appeal, and the Manitoba Court of Appeal has made a suggestion to the Board that they may have erred in their decision and to review the case. In the one particular instance that the Member for Inkster refers to, that is exactly what happened.

The Member for Inkster had a situation in which the Motor Transport Board made a decision which was not in favour of his applicant. The decision was appealed to the Manitoba Court of Appeal, and the Manitoba Court of Appeal indicated that the Board made an error and requested a review of the case, which took place, and I believe it was in 1978 if I'm not mistaken. Upon review of the information, no new information was forthcoming from the applicant to justify the kind of change in decision that the applicant and his legal representative would desire.

The decision of the Motor Transport Board was then appealed back to the Manitoba Court of Appeal at which time the Manitoba Court of Appeal said, yes, the decision taken by the Motor Transport Board was correct. The member says that there is no method for them to reverse a decision. He uses that instance where the Manitoba Court of Appeal makes a decision indicating that the Motor Transport has erred in their decision as justification for changing the law.

He does not at the same time recognize that when the Manitoba Court of Appeal agrees with the decision made by the Motor Transport Board, that they didn't err, and that there isn't a need in law. Further to that, Mr. Chairman, there is a higher Court of Appeal yet and it is the Supreme Court of Canada in which a decision by the Manitoba Court of Appeal can be 966

Friday, 20 February, 1981 taken, and if there is sufficient grounds and justification for the Supreme Court of Canada to determine whether in fact it's a case that they will review and make a decision on, that is also a further area of appeal as to whether the judgment made or the decision made by the Motor Transport Board is correct or not. I understand that process was taken on behalf of the client to which the Member for Inkster refers to, and was not accepted as a case that the Supreme Court of Canada could decide.

I realize the Member for Inkster has a certain pride in his law practice in which he believes that no one else is right except himself, and he has not accepted the decision of the Motor Transport Board in this case, and it has been agreed to in successive concurrence by the Manitoba Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court of Canada that the Motor Transport Board decision was within their jurisdiction, and I would assume was correct.

If neither the Manitoba Court of Appeal on the second time around, nor the Supreme Court of Canada could find a serious error in the decision, such that they would review the case or make a recommendation that the Motor Transport Board had erred, the Member for Inkster then decides that he will use the forum of the House to err his case, which is fine and dandy; that's his privilege. Other members of the House have used that privilege in recent history and are no longer sitting in this House. If he wants to use that kind of forum to discuss a case which he has before the courts, that's fine.

We will all sit here with patience and listen, but if the Member for Inkster has some specific amendments to the Act governing the Motor Transport Board, I think we can listen to those without listening to a case before the courts that the member would like us all to take

part in this Chamber. Now the Member for Inkster also made some comments in terms of the - and I'll deal with the winter roads situation where there is no requirement lor franchise rights or a motor carrier to have a franchise to deliver freight into areas served by winter roads - that's quite correct. But it is not correct when he says that carriers could not get to the winter roads.

The Motor Transport Board has and always does and I don't know of instances, there may be some but I have not had any complaints drawn to my attention where people, franchised carriers, requesting corridor permits to get to the jump off spots for the winter roads system have been refused that corridor permit.

That corridor permit is a temporary permit which is granted for the time that the winter roads system is in place and allows a carrier who is granted that corridor permit the ability to, as an example, leave Winnipeg and travel to Hole River off of PR 304 and make further deliveries on the winter roads system into the communities on the east side of Lake Winnipeg. So that it's not quite correct, the inference the Member of Inkster makes that there is no way to get to the winter road. There is in fact that provision that the Motor Transport Board routinely and regularly grants to various carriers in the province.

Now the member indicates that there is no need for regulation and he is suggesting through his discussion that we deregulate the trucking industry in Manitoba. At the same time I believe I heard him say that however regulation makes sense in certain areas; well, that's the quandry we're faced with in this province, Mr. Chairman, where the certain areas that regulation does indeed make sense. The free enterprise system of carrier competition is by and large in place.

There are most communities in Manitoba of substantial size are served by one or more carriers, their rate applications and their regulation of their operations into those communities are reviewed on a regular basis by the Motor Transport Board to assure that a level of service fitting the community is being provided by that carrier. The Motor Transport Board will at all times, Mr. Chairman, entertain an application Iron any entrepreneur in the Province of Manitoba for the granting of a PSV licence to provide carrier service into any community in Manitoba.

If the existing carrier is not providing a level of service which is adequate for the community and if the applicant carrier can bring forward evidence to prove that people within the area served by the PSV carrier are dissatisfied with the present service offered by the present franchised carrier, the Motor Transport Board has and does grant additional PSV trucking rights to other firms to serve those areas, and in that way there is free enterprise in the trucking industry in Manitoba. It is not a wide open system where anyone can go anywhere with any load to any community; that does not exist. Now, Mr.

Chairman, there are arguments pro and con for the establishment of that kind of a system and quite frankly I don't know whether Manitoba would be better served with a completely wide open trucking system as the Member for Inkster would like to see or whether it is currently better served by the system of franchised carriers that we have in the Province of Manitoba. Because we have a number of carriers in rural Manitoba who are franchised to perform a service of trucking in the area.

The philosophy I suppose that is predicated on that decision of granting them the PSV service and the PS service with no competion is predicated upon the fact that for in order for that carrier to provide a regular scheduled service, not a service whenever he gets a truckload but the service he provides is even, if he has to bring out a quarter of a truckload, that service is available on a regularly scheduled basis.

Now, I don't know whether some of our smaller communities with smaller volumes of freight in and out of the communities would be able to assure themselves of a regular trucking service in that community if we had the system thrown wide open as the Member for Inkster would suggest because I believe there are certain communities in rural Manitoba where the volume of business quite frankly does not justify - I'll put it this way - it appears as if it barely justifies the kind of service that's being offered now.

Under an unregulated trucking system there is the possibility that certain portions of the existing freight going into that community may be carried by someone else. If you have a trucker who