Manitoba Hansard — 20 April 2009 (Sitting 27, 39th Legislature, 3rd Session)

39-3-27

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

Third Session - Thirty-Ninth Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS Official Report (Hansard) Published under the authority of The Honourable George Hickes Speaker Vol. LXI No. 27 - 1:30 p.m., Monday, April 20, 2009 ISSN 0542-5492

MANITOBA LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY Thirty-Ninth Legislature Member Constituency Political Affiliation ALLAN, Nancy, Hon. St. Vital N.D.P. ALTEMEYER, Rob Wolseley N.D.P. ASHTON, Steve, Hon. Thompson N.D.P. BJORNSON, Peter, Hon. Gimli N.D.P. BLADY, Sharon Kirkfield Park N.D.P. BLAIKIE, Bill, Hon. Elmwood N.D.P. BOROTSIK, Rick Brandon West P.C. BRAUN, Erna Rossmere N.D.P. BRICK, Marilyn St. Norbert N.D.P. BRIESE, Stuart Ste. Rose P.C. CALDWELL, Drew Brandon East N.D.P. CHOMIAK, Dave, Hon. Kildonan N.D.P. CULLEN, Cliff Turtle Mountain P.C. DERKACH, Leonard Russell P.C. DEWAR, Gregory Selkirk N.D.P. DOER, Gary, Hon.

Concordia N.D.P. DRIEDGER, Myrna Charleswood P.C. DYCK, Peter Pembina P.C. EICHLER, Ralph Lakeside P.C. FAURSCHOU, David Portage la Prairie P.C. GERRARD, Jon, Hon. River Heights Lib. GOERTZEN, Kelvin Steinbach P.C. GRAYDON, Cliff Emerson P.C. HAWRANIK, Gerald Lac du Bonnet P.C. HICKES, George, Hon. Point Douglas N.D.P. HOWARD, Jennifer Fort Rouge N.D.P. IRVIN-ROSS, Kerri, Hon. Fort Garry N.D.P. JENNISSEN, Gerard Flin Flon N.D.P. JHA, Bidhu Radisson N.D.P. KORZENIOWSKI, Bonnie St. James N.D.P. LAMOUREUX, Kevin Inkster Lib. LEMIEUX, Ron, Hon. La Verendrye N.D.P. MACKINTOSH, Gord, Hon. St. Johns N.D.P.

MAGUIRE, Larry Arthur-Virden P.C. MARCELINO, Flor Wellington N.D.P. MARTINDALE, Doug Burrows N.D.P. McFADYEN, Hugh Fort Whyte P.C. McGIFFORD, Diane, Hon. Lord Roberts N.D.P. MELNICK, Christine, Hon. Riel N.D.P. MITCHELSON, Bonnie River East P.C. NEVAKSHONOFF, Tom Interlake N.D.P. OSWALD, Theresa, Hon. Seine River N.D.P. PEDERSEN, Blaine Carman P.C. REID, Daryl Transcona N.D.P. ROBINSON, Eric, Hon. Rupertsland N.D.P. RONDEAU, Jim, Hon. Assiniboia N.D.P. ROWAT, Leanne Minnedosa P.C. SARAN, Mohinder The Maples N.D.P. SCHULER, Ron Springfield P.C. SELBY, Erin Southdale N.D.P. SELINGER, Greg, Hon. St. Boniface N.D.P.

STEFANSON, Heather Tuxedo P.C. STRUTHERS, Stan, Hon. Dauphin-Roblin N.D.P. SWAN, Andrew, Hon. Minto N.D.P. TAILLIEU, Mavis Morris P.C. WHITEHEAD, Frank The Pas N.D.P. WOWCHUK, Rosann, Hon. Swan River N.D.P.

761 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Monday, April 20, 2009 The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYER ROUTINE PROCEEDINGS INTRODUCTION OF BILLS Bill 19–The Mortgage Dealers Amendment and Securities Amendment Act Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): Yes, Mr. Speaker, if I could get the document in front of me, I'd by happy to sign it, but I'd like to introduce The Mortgage Dealers Act to extend registration requirements to mortgage brokers who are not otherwise regulated in a financial services industry. And I just need the bill or the document.

I move that Bill 19, The Mortgage–seconded by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Chomiak), I might add, that The Mortgage Dealers Amendment and Securities Amendment Act; Loi modifiant la

Loi sur les courtiers d'hypothèques et la

Loi sur les valeurs mobilières, be now read a first time. Motion presented. Mr. Selinger: Yes, Mr. Speaker, this bill expands the scope of The Mortgage Dealers Act to extend registration requirements to mortgage brokers who are not otherwise regulated in a financial services industry. Also with this bill, The Securities Act is amended to increase the maximum financial compensation the Manitoba Securities Commission can order for financial loss from $100,000 to $250,000.

As well, the amendments more clearly indicate the types of decisions made by the director that can be appealed as opposed to administrative decisions that cannot be appealed. Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Is it the pleasure of the House to adopt the motion? [Agreed] PETITIONS Long-Term Care Facility–Morden Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly. The background for this petition is as follows: Tabor Home Incorporated is a time-expired personal care home in Morden with safety, environmental and space deficiencies.

The seniors of Manitoba are valuable members of the community with in creasing health-care needs requiring long-term care. The community of Morden and the surrounding area are experiencing substantial population growth. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request the Minister of Health (Ms. Oswald) to strongly consider giving priority for funding to develop and staff a new 100-bed long-term care facility so that clients are not exposed to unsafe conditions and so that Boundary Trails Health Centre beds remain available for acute-care patients instead of waiting placement clients.

This is signed by Herman Hiebert, Allen Schellenberg, Tom Wiebe and many, many others. Mr. Speaker: In accordance with our rule 132(6), when petitions are read they are deemed to be received by the House. Seven Oaks Hospital–Emergency Services Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. The background to this petition is as follows: The current Premier (M r. Doer) and the NDP government are reducing emergency services at the Seven Oaks Hospital.

On October 6, 1995, the NDP introduced a matter of urgent public importance that stated that "the ordinary business of the House to be set aside to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, namely the threat to the health-care system posed by this government's plans to limit emergency services in the city of Winnipeg community hospitals." On December 6, 1995, when the then-PC government suggested it was going to reduce emergency services at the Seven Oaks Hospital, the NDP leader then asked Premier Gary Filmon to "reverse the horrible decisions of his government and

762 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2009 his Minister of Health (Ms. Oswald) and reopen our community-based emergency wards." The NDP gave Manitobans the impression that they supported Seven Oaks Hospital having full emergency services seven days a week, 24 hours a day We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Premier of Manitoba consider how important it is to have the Seven Oaks Hospital provide full emergency services seven days a week, 24 hours a day. Mr. Speaker, this is signed by I. Michaud, J. McDonald, M. Stefaniuk and many, many other fine Manitobans.

Thank you. Neepawa, Gladstone, Ste. Rose, McCreary– Family Doctors Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition: Access to a family doctor is vital to good primary health care. Patients depend on their family doctors for many things, including their routine health-care needs, preventative care and referrals for diagnostic tests and appointments with specialists. Family doctors in Neepawa, Gladstone and Ste. Rose are unable to accept new patients.

The nearby community of McCreary has not had a doctor available to take patients in months. Without a family doctor, residents of this large geographical area have no option but to look for a family doctor in communities as far away as Brandon and Winnipeg. Residents of these communities are suffering because of the provincial government's continuing failure to effectively addres s the shortage of doctors in rural Manitoba. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To urge the Minister of Health (Ms.

Oswald) to consider prioritizing the needs of these communities by ensuring they have access to a family doctor. To urge the Minister of Health to consider promptly increasing the use of nurse practitioners in these communities in order to improve access to quality health care. This petition is signed by Kelsey Wollman, Henry Wollman, Justin Wollman and many, many other fine Manitobans. * (13:40) PTH 15 Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr. Speaker, I wish to present the following petition to the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba. These are the reasons for this petition.

In 2004, the Province of Manitoba made a public commitment to the people of Springfield to twin PTH 15 and the floodway bridge on PTH 15, but then in 2006, the twinning was cancelled. Injuries resulting from collisions on PTH 15 continue to rise and have doubled from 2007 to 2008. In August 2008, the Minister of Transportation (Mr. Lemieux) stated that the preliminary analysis of current and future traffic demands indicate that local twinning will be required.

The current plan to replace the floodway bridge on PTH 15 does not include twinning and, therefore, does not fulfil the current nor future traffic demands cited by the Minister of Transportation. We petition the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba as follows: To request that the Minister of Transportation consider the immediate twinning of the PTH 15 floodway bridge for the safety of the citizens of Manitoba. Signed by Jake Buhler, Al Bodner, John Chup and many, many other Manitobans. TABLING OF REPORTS Hon.

Diane McGifford (Minister of Advanced Education and Literacy): I am pleased to table the 2009-2010 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for Manitoba Advanced Education and Literacy. Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): I'm pleased to table the 2009-2010 Departmental Expenditure Estimates, Supplementary Information for Legislative Review, Education, Citizenship and Youth.

April 20, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 763 Hon. Greg Selinger (Minister of Finance): I would like to table the following report: The Supplementary Information for Legislative Review, 2009-10 Departmental Expenditure Estimates for Finance. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS Provincial Ice Jams and Flooding Hon. Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): Mr. Speaker, water levels in the Red River Valley are beginning to stabilize. From Emerson to St. Jean, water levels declined 0.1 feet. Levels were unchanged at Morris and Ste. Agathe.

The Red River level at James Avenue in Winnipeg this morning was 20.83 feet, a decline of 0.12 feet from yesterday morning. The decline of river levels in Winnipeg will be gradual for the next few weeks. All tributaries of the Red River had crested as of this morning. Residents and flood fighters in the flooded areas have been reminded that strong winds and wave action can raise water levels by one foot or more, and wave action can erode dikes. Vigilance with respect to wind is recommended until levels have declined substantially. Windy conditions are expected Wednesday and Thursday.

Extensive overland flooding continues in the Interlake region, with many roads overtopped or washed out. Both the Fisher River and the Icelandic River have crested, but the levels remain high and flooding continues at the Peguis First Nation. Flooding could quickly increase if significant rainfall were to develop. Residents in low-lying areas are advised to take precautions against possible sudden rises. Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): I'd like to thank the minister for the flood update again, as we get every day in the House here.

It appears that some of the crests have hit in some of the areas, and there seem to be some changes and lowering levels on some of our waterways. There are a number of areas, of course, in the province that are still in a critical situation, and we continue to monitor what's going on. We hope that we're starting on the curve to safer times here with the floodwaters in Manitoba.

In a week or two, we will probably be in a position to look back and reflect on all the actions that were taken during this crisis, and take a look at what worked well, what hasn't worked well, and continue to improve the systems throughout the province in respect to flood problems. Thank you. Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to speak to the minister's statement. Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable member have leave? [Agreed] Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, I want to thank the minister for his update on the flood situation, a situation which concerns all of us here and concerns many people in various parts of Manitoba. I'd like to comment particularly with the situation at the Peguis and Fisher River First Nations. There's been flooding in these communities from time to time, as we all know.

Yet, while much attention has been paid to the prevention of flooding through diking, bypasses and various other things in southern Manitoba, along the Red River and elsewhere there hasn't been the kind of dedicated attention that there needs to be to prevent flooding at the Peguis and Fisher River First Nations, in spite of the fact that a number of proposals have been put forward over the years. I think it's clearly time to address this in a more substantive way than has been addressed in the past, and I hope the government will look at this. Introduction of Guests Mr.

Speaker: Prior to oral questions, I'd like to draw the attention of honourable members to the public gallery where we have with us from Louis Riel Arts and Technology Centre 18 adult education students under the direction of Mrs. Lucille Miller. This group is located in th e constituency of the honourable Minister of Finance (Mr. Selinger). On behalf of all honourable members, I welcome you here today. ORAL QUESTIONS Education High School Graduation Rates Mr.

Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): The Canada West Foundation has just released a report showing that Manitoba has the lowest graduation rate in Canada, with more than one in 10 of Manitoba students dropping out before they complete high school. My question to the minister is how he can pat himself on the back when so many young Manitobans are dropping out of high school.

764 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2009 Hon. Gary Doer (Premier): The Canada West Foundation also had a report, just recently, that Manitoba's economy last year was the strongest in western Canada. Mr. Speaker, the graduation rate in school divisions under our administration has gone up to over 80 percent. They we re 74 percent when we came into office.

Where our real challenge is in Manitoba–and I suggest it's a challenge for all of us– is the unacceptably low graduation rates for children in Aboriginal and First Nation communities where we've said to the federal government: We have to fundamentally change. Mr. McFadyen: It goes beyond First Nations communities. If you take a look at the report, it indicates that it is not just restricted to those communities even though it is a very significant issue among First Nations.

I want to ask the government: With more than one in 10 Manitobans dropping out of high school before it's complete, which is the worst rate in the country, significantly wo rse than Saskatchewan– even Alberta with it's booming economy which has drawn many kids out of high school before graduation has a better rate–how can they congratulate themselves when what we need in Manitoba is a strategy fo r ensuring kids complete high school? Mr. Doer: The graduation rate has gone from 74 percent to close to 83 percent. The challenge, Mr.

Speaker, in terms of drop-outs–last year, it was highest in Alberta with the economy booming, particularly young males in schools. We think the real challenge for graduation rates is the agenda item we had with the Prime Minister in January of this year with– [interjection] Well, Mr. Speaker, if you look at the [inaudible] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Doer: –at the Frontier School Division, and you compare those to other investments, and in communities where we don't even have high schools–there are 13 First Nation communities, remote communities, most of them, that don't even have schools.

We're offering to work with the federal government and First Nations to deliver programs differently so we can ha ve different results, Mr. Speaker. Mr. McFadyen: Well, Mr. Speaker, the attempt to deflect onto other levels of government is cold comfort for the many students who need leadership on the issue. Saskatchewan, which has a comparable situation in terms of its demographics and the number of First Nations people who are under federal jurisdiction, has a graduation rate significantly better than Manitoba's, some 2 percentage points better.

Alberta and every other province in the country have better graduation rates. I wonder if the Premier can indicate concretely whether they can move beyond finger pointing at other levels of government and outline specifically what strategies his government is bringing in, strategies like those already introduced in British Columbia, Alberta and Saskatchewan. When is Manitoba going to get caught up on this important issue? Mr. Doer: Well, Mr. Speaker, the numbers say that we went from 71 percent in the past to 79 percent. Our numbers have us at 83 percent in Manitoba.

But, for the school divisions that we operate, including the Frontier School Division, we have it at below 50 percent in many First Nations communities, including 13 that don't even have high schools. So we think it's not a question of blaming anybody. It's a question of admitting that there's a real weakness across western Canada, including in Manitoba, for the graduation rate in many of our remote communities. We would believe that at least we should have high schools and high school access in every one of those communities.

We're building the University College of the North to provide more post-secondary courses into those communities. But we have a real weakness, a real gap, between the high school graduation rates in those communities and the post-secondary programs we're putting in place with the University College of the North, Mr. Speaker. * (13:50) Education High School Graduation Rates Mr. Leonard Derkach (Russell): Well, three questions asked of the Premier and three times he is either denying or pointing the finger at someone else for the problem. Mr. Speaker, we haven't heard any solutions.

April 20, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 765 So I want to ask the Minister of Education: This is a member who is an award-winning teacher because of his innovative techniques, Mr. Speaker. I don't want to hear the spin of the NDP government spin doctors. I want to hear from an award-winning teacher, who is now the Minister of Education, as to what action he is prepared to take or what strategy he has put in place to compensate and to, as a matter of fact, fight against this horrible record that has just come out as a result of the drop-out rates in this province. Hon.

Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): It's refreshing that they would like to hear from me today because 15 years ago, when I was protesting cuts to the education system, they didn't want to hear a word about it, Mr. Speaker. It's a real interesting conversion here on the road because I remember during the last election that the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. McFadyen) said he didn't think we had to increase funding to our school system because enrolment was flat or declining. Well, Mr.

Speaker, we understand that we need to invest in the education system, and that's why two years in a row our funding commitment to education has been in excess of $50 million, two years in a row. Members opposite, they promised $10 million for schools of excellence. They don't care about all Manitobans. They were going to reward schools of excellence, so we're going to fund every school in Manitoba. Mr. Derkach: Once again, I'm not interested in the rhetoric that comes from Riva Harrison and the spin group, Mr. Speaker.

What I want is a genuine answer from an award-winning teacher who now occupies the chair as Minister of Education in this province. And, Mr. Speaker, my question to the minister is: What specific action has he now put in place to ensure that the next report that comes out, from the western report, next March does not have the same dismal record that we see here before us today with Manitoba leading in the drop-out rates in all of Canada? Mr. Speaker, what action is this minister now putting in place? Mr. Bjornson: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I'm glad the members are finally asking questions about education in this Chamber. It's been a long time since they've done so. What I'd like to assure the member is there have been a number of initiatives that we've undertaken, particularly to address the gap that we see between First Nations learners. That is a horrible problem that we have throughout the country in Canada today, Mr. Speaker, is the gap between Aboriginal and First Nations learners, and we are taking tremendous efforts to address that gap.

Oddly enough, the only time I was asked a question in Estimates about an expenditure of $3 million had to do with the Aboriginal Education Directorate. They were questioning why we would increase the funding by $3 million, Mr. Speaker. We have a number of initiatives, every single one of which they voted against in every single budget that we have brought forward, and those initiatives are working, Mr. Speaker. In fact, many people look to the examples that we provide here in Manitoba for leadership. Mr. Derkach: Mr.

Speaker, special problems require special solutions, and the only thing this minister has been able to po int to is the fact that he keeps throwing money at the system. I think the former president of Brandon University put it right when he said he was tired of listening to the problems and the complaints. We need solutions. Mr. Speaker, I'm asking this Minister of Education, who obviously has failed in his task in terms of the drop-out rate in this province, what specific solutions he has in place to ensure that Manitoba does not, once again, boast of the highest drop-out rate in the country. Mr.

Bjornson: Well, you know, Mr. Speaker, I have to question the member op posite when he raises a question as such as a former Minister of Education, because he seemed to believe that we could compare our success rates across th e country when no such information exists on standardized testing across the country. He was suggesting that our school system was failing, that our grade 12s are failing, but there's no information that is collected to provide that benchmark. But we are succeeding he re in the province of Manitoba. More students are graduating. More students are enrolling in adult learning centres.

We have more apprenticeship programs. We're– Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. I want to pass on some information to the House. I received a number of calls, and I received a very, very–well, it was a very

766 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2009 disruptive letter from a vice -principal in a school. They are wondering if they should even bring their students here because of the decorum in this House. We, as elected members, should be setting the model for all schools, and I think a little decorum is warranted right now. We're talking about education, and what kind of an example are we setting? I need the co-operation of all members here. The honourable minister has the floor. Mr. Bjornson: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

What our plan is, is to provide more opportunities for students to succeed, and that plan includes appropriate educational programming for children with special needs. It includes the Aboriginal Education Directorate. It includes the Bureau de l'éducation français and more emphasis on second-language instruction. It includes success for all learners, Mr. Speaker, not $10 million set aside in their budget for schools of excellence. We work for all learners. School Divisions Tax Incentive Grant Mr. Ron Schuler (Springfield): Mr.

Speaker, with the failure of the tax incentive grant, or TIG, is it the Doer government's intention to make TIG part of base funding or will it be announced on a yearly basis at the whim of this minister? Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Well, Mr. Speaker, I thank my critic for the question. It took 35 days for him to respond to our funding announcement, but I understand why that was the case because, again, we brought $53 million to the table to fund our schools. Mr. Speaker, every year we have stepped up to the plate.

Every year we have increased funding to support our schools, and every year we go through a process where we talk to our stakeholders about the funding formula and how we fund schools, and we'll continue to do that. This year, with the tax incentive grant, clearly two-thirds of the school divisions accepted it, and they made it work. Now we have to talk to the other school divisions about why that wasn't the case. But $53 million on the table; $60 million sitting in surplus funds; Manitobans should not see [inaudible] Mr. Speaker: Order. Mr. Bjornson –tax increases this year. Mr. Schuler: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to thank Riva Harrison for that answer, but we would like the minister to get up and start answering these questions. With the failure of the tax incentive grant, or TIG, both the Premier (Mr. Doer) and the Minister of Education stated that, and I quote: All options are on the table. Can the Minister of Education confirm that it is his intention to strip local school boards of the authority to raise taxes? Mr. Bjornson: Well, Mr.

Speaker, two years in a row we have worked with the carrot of a tax incentive grant, and we have talked to school divisions about the fact that they should not have had to raise taxes. As I said, most school divisions accepted the tax incentive grant, and it worked, and we're going to talk to divisions about why they suggest it didn't. Of course, we've also increased the property tax credit every year since we've been in office and we've brought it up to $650 in this budget as well, so we've done more to impact local levies than the opposition did.

When the opposition was in office, they put a cap on taxes at 2 percent plus they cut funding. We saw taxes go up several percents, 60 percent, 70 percent, 80 percent, over 100 percent in some school divisions while they were in office. We're trying to balance appropriate funding with appropriate measures to mitigate tax impacts, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Schuler: Mr. Speaker, this minister misspoke himself. It's not a carrot he's been using; it's a club he's been using on the school boards.

With the failure of TIG and the Doer government's desire to strip school boards of the authority to tax, is it the intention of the Doer government to move towards a Brian-Postl- Winnipeg-Regional-Health-Authority style of governance for education in Manitoba, seeing as the Premier (Mr. Doer) himself has said all options are on the table? Mr. Bjornson: This is a rather interesting line of questioning, Mr. Speaker, because during the last election members opposite said they would immediately strip school divisions of their right to tax.

They said they didn't think they'd have to increase funding to education, and if you compare our record to theirs over the last two years–you don't

April 20, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 767 have to go back to the 1990s–they didn't have a shadow budget this year, but maybe we can assume that their past behaviour would dictate future behaviour. So if they said $10 million for schools of excellence last year, maybe they were going to rethink $10 million for schools of excellence this year. The gap would still be in excess of $80 million in funding from our government compared to them. But they didn't offer a shadow budget because they don't know what to do with education, Mr. Speaker.

We know that it's an investment and we continue to invest. * (14:00) Prairie Rose School Division Operating Grant for Graysville School Mr. Blaine Pedersen (Carman): With this government's moratorium on school closures, Prairie Rose School Division received $94,000 in lieu of closing Graysville School. Operating costs are budgeted for the school division at $150,000 to operate Graysville School. Mr.

Speaker, to the Minister of Education: What level of financial support can Prairie Rose School Division expect to see in the coming fiscal year, and what factors are used to determine the level of funding in lieu of a school closure? Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Unlike members opposite, we believe in rural Manitoba and invest in rural Manitoba. Mr. Speaker, the members opposite did not support the closure act. They did not support that bill. Members opposite were on the side of the trustees and not the school divisions.

Members opposite always talk about the cost, but they don't think about it in terms of the investment. We've actually got more day-care spaces going into schools right now for minimal investment in those spaces. If we were to build stand-alone schools, the cost would be quite phenomenal. We have a school in rural Ma nitoba where the day-care enrolment now exceeds the school enrolment. That school will be viable in Manitoba for many years to come. That's our focus, Mr. Speaker, keeping schools viable in rural Manitoba. We heard it at the committee hearings; we heard loud and clear. Mr. Pedersen: Mr.

Speaker, Graysville School is not asking for a day care. The $94,000-grant for Graysville School was based on an enrolment of 30 students. The current enrolment is 13 students. Operating costs remain fixed for the school division for operating this school regardless of enrolment numbers. So my question then becomes: Will the drop in enrolment affect the operating grant in lieu of closing of Graysville School, and when will Prairie Rose School Division know the level of funding, if there will be any? Mr. Bjornson: Well, Mr. Speaker, we have declining enrolment grants. We have sparsity grants.

We have small-school grants because we believe in the importance of keeping a school in the community. I would ask the members opposite: Would that grant have been covered in their schools of excellence model of $10 million of funding? I don't know, Mr. Speaker; I'm somewh at sceptical that that would be the case. But, Mr. Speaker, we are investing more money in our schools to keep them viable in the communities. We heard loud and clear during the committee hearings: licence to close a school is licence to close a community in many of the small rural communities in Manitoba.

We believe in those rural communities and will continue to support the schools. We're going to keep those schools open, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Pedersen: Mr. Speaker, for the information of the House, in February when the Minister of Education was out visiting Carman and Elm Creek schools, he did not go to Graysville School. So, Mr. Speaker, what assurances can the minister give to the families of Graysville School that there will be adequate long-term funding to keep Graysville School open in the future? Mr.

Bjornson: You know, it's certainly a pleasure to visit the schools in the Carman constituency, and I'll be glad to visit more of them, Mr. Speaker. I'll have to check my records but I believe I did visit Graysville a couple of years ago. I'll check and advise the member of when that visit had taken place. But I can assure members opposite that the school closure moratorium is something this government is very proud of and very supportive of because we know the value of small schools in rural communities, Mr. Speaker, and we'll continue to support them.

768 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2009 As I said, sparsity grants, declining enrolment grants, small-school grants, as well as providing meaningful funding every single year to every school division, is something that we will stand by any day, Mr. Speaker, compared to their promise of $10 million to schools of excellence. We fund for all Manitobans in all areas of Manitoba, Mr. Speaker. Educational Facilities Need in Southwest Winnipeg Mr.

Hugh McFadyen (Leader of the Official Opposition): Young families in southwest Winnipeg are seeing their kids bused all over the city in order to go to high school. These are families who have paid their taxes and who have established the need for a high school in southwest Winnipeg. I want to ask the minister, given that he has said repeatedly that it's not a matter of if but when there will be a high school in southwest Winnipeg, I want to ask the minister the question: When will the high school in southwest Winnipeg be built? Hon. Peter Bjornson (M inister of Education, Citizenship and Youth): Well, Mr.

Speaker, certainly we should build the schools as soon as the population would warrant the construction of those schools. The member opposite, I don't think he thinks that we should build a school on the basis of if we build it they will come. So we are certainly working with the Pembina Trails School Division. We'll monitor the situation, and we'll build when the need is there, Mr. Speaker. Mr. McFadyen: Mr.

Speaker, families in southwest Winnipeg wonder how it is that when the government has $640 million to build a hydro line to nowhere and a million dollars on a vote tax, why it is that schools in southwest Winnipeg just aren't a priority for this minister and this government. Why not? Mr. Bjornson: Well, Mr. Speaker, the $310 million that we announced for education capital is a priority for all schools throughout the province of Manitoba, and there's going to be a lot of work done throughout the province on a number of schools. Perhaps the member opposite is disagreeing.

I heard them heckling when I gave my first answer, but the Tory opposition leader says that he favours building schools where people live, though, and I quote, I would not adopt the build-it-and-they-will- come approach, and you should build as soon as you possibly can after the population arrives. I paraphrased that and used it in my first answer, but members opposite were heckling. So, Mr. Speaker, we'll continue to invest where there is need. We've done so in Steinbach. We've done so in Winkler.

We're doing so in La Broquerie, and we're continuing to repair a number of schools throughout the province of Manitoba. Mr. McFadyen: Mr. Speaker, the population in southwest Winnipeg is there. I think if the minister was able to make the time, he should come and visit southwest Winnipeg and he will know that the population is there today. He has a study already showing that the numbers are significant and continue to grow, particularly with the development of Waverley West.

Even if the minister won't commit to the school today, will he at least commit to the site for that high school so the residents in southwest Winnipeg know that the land is being held aside as they await the budget announcement which we know cannot be very far down the road, given that the population is already there? Mr. Bjornson: Well, Mr.

Speaker, it's interesting because in Carman the question is about the sustainability of the school and if we were to close the school in Graysville then those students would have to be bussed significant distances, but here we have the member opposite talking about bussing as if it's–well, you know, as someone who rode the bus himself to school as a rural Manitoban, it's a different reality. That being said, Mr. Speaker, a potential site has been identified in Waverley West.

The Public Schools Finance Board worked with the Pembina Trails School Division, as it worked with all 35 other school divisions to identify a site. They're continuing to work with the school divisions to identify need, and they've done so with a potential site being identified. What this $310 million means is $3 million for 15 more schools to accommodate students with disabilities, $12 million for roofing projects on 53 different schools, $13 million for structural renewal projects in nine different schools, $13 million to replace heating and ventilation systems in 29 different schools.

April 20, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 769 Lake Dauphin Fishery Government Report Mr. Stuart Briese (Ste. Rose): Mr. Speaker, on May 6, 2008, the Minister of Water Stewardship in a letter to the editor in the Dauphin Herald stated: The results of the index netting on Lake Dauphin give every indication that the fishery is healthy, yet information from the provincial government proves otherwise. I would like to table the department's own documents on the health of the fishery and ask what parts of the reports she doesn't understand. Hon. Christine Melnic k (Minister of Water Stewardship): Mr.

Speaker, we had a recommendation from the department this year that, based on the science gathered over the last number of months, a closure on the spring spawn would be appropriate this year. We held consultations with the affected First Nations communities over winter. On the 14th of April of this year, I sent a letter to the First Nations to inform them of a conservation closure on the Turtle and Valley rivers during the spring spawn. Sustenance fishing on other Dauphin Lake tributaries will be limited to six fish per day. We listen to the science as it is gathered, Mr.

Speaker, and we respect that when it is necessary to take a conservation move, as we have done in the past, we will do so. Mr. Briese: Mr. Speaker, I would correct the minister. The department's own documents are from 2005 to 2008, and they make statements like: walleye stocks will decline and not be available for future generations; walleye stocks will decline because the fishery has not been sufficiently replenished, and if actions are not taken, insufficient recruitment of younger walleye into the fishery will impact the long-term sustainability of the fishery.

I ask again: What parts of these reports does the minister not understand, and why does she not take decisive action to protect the valuable Lake Dauphin walleye fishery? * (14:10) Ms. Melnick: Mr. Speaker, the real question is what part of we have announced a closure for this year for the spring spawn does the member not understand on the other side of the House? We will continue to work for the conservation of the stocks. In 2002, we prohibited spawn fishing in all the tributaries and within one kilometre, allowing First Nations to fish for sustenance.

We cut quotas from 750 pounds to 500 pounds for all commercial fishers in 2003. In 2002, the Province reduced recreational angler limits from six to four. We're working with the First Nations. We're working with all stakeholder groups, Mr. Speaker. We are concerned about th e conservation of the fishery on Dauphin Lake and every other waterway in Manitoba. Mr. Briese: The minister fails to say, when she talks about her closure, that it's on only two of the seven tributaries of Lake Dauphin and it's only for a two-week duration.

Last year the minister put in place a Band-Aid solution in which a trap net was placed, at considerable expense, on the Turtle River at Ste. Rose. It turned out to be next to useless. This year the minister has announced this partial closure on two of the seven tributaries of Lake Dauphin, another Band-Aid solution. When is the minister going to read her own reports, do the right thing and order a full conservation closure on all the tributaries of Lake Dauphin during the critical walleye spawning season? Ms. Melnick: I'm going to try again, Mr. Speaker.

We have announced a closure during the spring spawn on the two main tributaries, with limited fishing for First Nations fishers on the other tributaries going into Dauphin Lake. This is on the advice of the scientific information that was gained from the department that was printed in the documents that the member tabled this afternoon. I hope that the member is able to understand now after three attempts. We have announced a closure. The closure is based on the conservation of the Dauphin Lake fishery. It is from the 20th of April to the 3rd of May, around the spring spawn, Mr. Speaker.

This is in addition to several other conservation measures we've taken over the last number of years. Health-Care Services Wait Times Hon. Jon Gerrard (River Heights): Mr. Speaker, to the Minister of Health: John Milne came to me because he's lost his job, because the minister has

770 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2009 failed to do her job. John Milne had to wait many agonizing months to get a straightforward treatment for psoriasis. Because he wasn't able to get the treatment when he needed it, he missed some time at work and he was fired because of his untreated illness.

I ask the minister: When is she going to do her job properly and make sure people can get the health care they need when they need it, instead of having to wait months, so that people like John Milne don't lose their jobs because they're fired because they're not able to get the treatment they need when they need it? Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): I'm very pleased to discuss the specific details of a specific case with the member and would appreciate any more information that he has to offer.

I can say, generally, of course, that the issue of any wait times when it comes to procedures across the spectrum, from lifesaving treatments like cancer and cardiac, wherein, of course, we rank No. 1 in the country for having the shortest wait times, or for quality of life wait times for things like orthopedic surgery, or others, as have been mentioned by the member, we want to work to bring those wait times down for all Manitobans. I look forward to hearing more details from the member so we can assist any of his constituents or others who come to him. Mr. Gerrard: Mr.

Speaker, John Milne, when his doctor retired, like many other Manitobans, went a long time before he was able to find a replacement family doctor. When he finally got a family doctor– you know, it's been tough to get a family doctor under the NDP–but when he finally got a family doctor, the family doctor had to refer him to a specialist to treat his psoriasis. That took another six months. Well, guess what? Six months later, when John Milne finally was able to get in to see the specialist, it was too late.

Just a few days before he had the appointment, he was fired because he had a condition, psoriasis, which wasn't being treated, and he was fired by his employer. It's as simple as that. The minister wasn't doing her job to make sure people got quick access to care, and he's lost his. When is the minister going to fix the system? Ms. Oswald: Mr. Speaker, as I said before, I would be pleased to discuss the specifics, the personal specifics of any case with the member opposite. Of course, we work to ensure that we can bring more health professionals to Manitoba, family doctors included.

We know that the doctor shortage that exists across Canada, indeed internationally, is one that we all have to be working very vigorously to overcome. We know that we have seen a net increase of doctors to the province of Manitoba every year since taking office, the last two years being among the record-breaking high numbers of net increase. We have to continue to improve access, and we're doing that through innovations with programs as well. Again, on the specifics of this case, I'm happy to discuss further with the member, if he's willing to share more details.

Seven Oaks Hospital Emergency Services Reductions Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Inkster): Mr. Speaker, for the last few days over at Garden City mall, there's been a table set up to explain what this government is actually doing with the Seven Oaks Hospital and the reduction of emergency services. What is very apparent is that there is a genuine lack of public knowledge in terms of what this government has actually done with the Seven Oaks emergency services. Manitobans are upset in North End Winnipeg because they believe that they have been deceived by this government.

They believe this government was going to materialize on having a seven-day, 24-hour emergency services that did appendixes, that did bleeding ulcers. My question is: Why did this government so miserably fail on any form of public consultation before these draconian decisions were made to reduce emergency services at Seven Oaks Hospital? Hon. Theresa Oswald (Minister of Health): If there is one person about whom I'm certain that deception–or misinformation, I should say, Mr. Speaker, is being given to the public about what's happening at Seven Oaks, it's the Member for Inkster.

He's making statements about what is being withdrawn from there, and he's just incorrect. He says that we don't care about community hospitals. It's incorrect. Medical professionals have made a decision about what is appropriate concerning the consolidation of general surgery. Indeed, services are being added to Seven Oaks at the same time that general surgery after hours is

April 20, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 771 being consolidated, on the recommendation of medical professionals. I would not substitute the judgment of the Member for Inkster for medical professionals, not today, not yesterday, not ever, Mr. Speaker. Disaster Financial Assistance Increase for Flood Victims Mr. Gregory Dewar (Selkirk): My question is to the minister responsible for disaster financial assistance. Mr. Speaker, the members of the opposition obviously don't care about the people that were flooded north of Selkirk. First of all, I want to thank the Minister of Water Stewardship (Ms.

Melnick) and the Premier (Mr. Doer), in fact all my colleagues, for their concern and support of th ose individuals north of Winnipeg who were recently impacted by the ice jam. I thank them very much for their concern. Mr. Speaker, as members know, a number of homes were damaged and many will need to be repaired. Some, unfortunately, need to be rebuilt. This will require financial assistance. Today the minister announced an increase in this program, and can he inform the House, offer more details of this increase to the Chamber? Hon.

Steve Ashton (Minister responsible for Emergency Measures): I thank the Member for Selkirk for, first of all, being there for his constituents and, second of all, actually asking a question about what is a major flood, Mr. Speaker, that we're still experiencing in much of the Red River Valley but what was clearly the flood of the century for people north of Winnipeg.

I was very pleased, as our thoughts are with the many Manitobans who did receive flood damage, to announce today that as a Province we're taking the initiative to double the eligibility for disaster financial assistance for private home-owners from $100,000 to $200,000. This reflects the higher costs of construction since it was last increased in 1997, the higher value of homes right here in Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, I want to stress again, we're not out of this flood yet, but as we start tomorrow with the disaster financial assistance office in Selkirk, there'll be more coverage for Manitobans. * (14:20) Growing Opportunities Centres Environmental Farm Program Funding Mrs. Leanne Rowat (Minnedosa): Mr. Speaker, I've been contacted by a constituent of mine, Mr. Bruce Quadrelli of the Souris area, who wants to build a facility to store farm chemicals and fertilizers. In the past, there had been assistance for these types of beneficial management practices through the Canada-Manitoba Farm Stewardship Program.

However, producers are currently waiting for details of the new environmental farm programs under grow forward to be announced. When my constituent went to the GO office, he was told there was no funding available at this time for that type of initiative. Mr. Speaker, can the minister explain why funding is not available today for Manitoba producers who want to undertake environmental projects like building chemical and fertilizer storage centres on their farms? Hon. Rosann Wowchuk (Minis ter of Agriculture, Food and Rural Initiatives): Mr.

Speaker, as the House knows, we just signed the agreement for the non-business risk management pillar of the federal-provincial progra m, and there are funds available for various aspects that will be announced. If the member has a specific case that I am not aware of with regard to farm sites, buildings and storage facilities, I would ask her for that information, and I can address it. But certainly we are moving forward on the other pillars, which are environmental management, research, innovation and all of those issues that are very important to our farming community. Mrs. Rowat: Mr.

Speaker, this individual, as I said, had gone to the local GO Centre and was told that no funding would be in place until this fall, possibly later. This type of storage facility is very important for producers who want to do the right thing and are stewards of the land but are being given the runaround by this government. It would be beneficial to the environment if Mr. Quadrelli could get this new storage facility on his farm. These storage facilities are also built right here in Manitoba. So there's a direct hit to an industry that needs these types of producers looking for their types of buildings.

772 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2009 I'd like to ask the minister: Would she please tell the House when Manitoba producers will be able to access the environmental program dollars under grow forward, and when will the funding applications be released, because you cannot even get them on-line. Ms. Wowchuk: I'm quite interested in what the member is saying. First, in her first question, she said there was no money available. In her second question, she said the money won't be available until fall, and there are no applications ready. As I indicated in my first answer, Mr.

Speaker, we have just signed the agreement. As of the end of the last fiscal year, we signed the agreement, and we are working on the various options, the various programs that will be available. But the member is wrong when she says there is no money, and she admitted that in her second question. Letellier Bridge Project Status Mr. Cliff Graydon (Emerson): Mr. Speaker, flooding is under way in southern Manitoba and north of Winnipeg, and it has a negative impact on infrastructure like roads and bridges. A case in point is the ailing Letellier Bridge.

Manitoba Infrastructure and Transportation has installed new piling on the bridge to try and shore it up, but it was only a temporary fix. This spring's flooding with its continued high water and ice jamming can result in further damage to the ailing bridge. Mr. Speaker, I ask the minister responsible: Can we expect work to begin on this bridge this season? Hon. Ron Lemieux (Minister of Infrastructure and Transportation): Mr.

Speaker, the engineers in the department and within government will certainly be looking at all the structures throughout the province to see where further damage has taken place with regard to flo od waters, with regard to bridges. Throughout the next while, certainly in the next three years, we're going to be investing about $1.2 billion over the next three years. That's almost, is certainly, the entire budget of the previous government in the decade of the '90s. There are a lot of structures that need to be addressed, but we depend on our professionals to give us advice with regard to which ones those will be.

Mr. Graydon: Mr. Speaker, the minister's answer is just a little bit off base. He knows that bridge has been in trouble for the last six years, seven years. The Minister of Infrastructure stated in this House on September 9, '08, I quote: "This bridge is truly important to the citizens locally as it is to us." If this bridge were truly important to this government then it would be outlining an action plan to get it replaced. Instead, we've seen this project delayed year after year. You can pu t another piling under the bridge, but that's only a Band-Aid solution. Mr.

Speaker, I ask the minister again: Why is the government stalling when it comes to replacing this crumbling bridge? Mr. Lemieux: Mr. Speaker, I thank the member for the question. The engineers have certainly looked at this bridge. The member opposite is very much aware that there is a land issue with regard to a dairy farm that's located near that par ticular structure that we're looking at, and there are negotiations, I understand, with regard to the purchase of this land.

There's still some further engineering that needs to be done with regard to that structure, and we depend, again, as I mentioned before, on our experts, our engineers to supply us with the information necessary. I should also note, Mr. Speaker, with regard to the member's backyard, we're investing well over $75 million with regard to Highway 75 in making improvements with the federal government. We look forward to a lot of that construction taking place starting this summer. Mr. Speaker: Time for oral questions has expired. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order.

Does the honourable Member for Emerson have leave to raise his last supplementary question? An Honourable Member: No. Some Honourable Members: Leave. Mr. Speaker: No? No, it has been denied. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh. Mr. Speaker: Order. Time for oral questions has expired.

April 20, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 773 Speaker's Statement Mr. Speaker: I wish to advise the House of a technical error that occurred last Thursday during the announcement of the vote total for the recorded vote held on the subamendment to the budget motion. The result of the vote was acci dentally announced as 21 Yeas, 35 Nays, when, in fact, the total number of the members voting as per the division list at the table and in accordance with members standing was 20 Yeas and 35 Nays.

The votes and proceedings of the House for that day will reflect the correct number as per the names entered, and Hansard will also show the correct number. This does not invalidate the vote or the vote outcome, but I wanted to ensure that members were advised of this situation. MEMBERS' STATEMENTS Mr. Speaker: Well, I have three NDP and two Conservatives, so I like to try and balance it off. An Honourable Member: Ready. Mr. Speaker: Okay, well, let's go. Allan Cup Championship Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Mr.

Speaker, this past week the city of Steinbach and all of southeast Manitoba were filled with excitement as it hosted the 101st Allan Cup Championship to determine the best senior AAA hockey team in the country. Every day, thousands of fans came to the Centennial Arena in Steinbach to watch teams from across the country battle it out for the historic Allan Cup.

Players with household names like Theo Fleury, to those who fans became familiar with during the week, such as tournament MVP Brent Zelenewich, put on a great show up until the final championship game which was decided in double overtime as the Bentley Generals from Alberta defeated the Southeast Prairie Thunder. Steinbach also welcomed special guests such as Ryan Smyth from the Colorado Avalanche and home town hero Ian White from the Toronto Maple Leafs. But, Mr.

Speaker, the real stars of the week were the volunteers and the host committee who put on a first-class event and who made Steinbach, the southeast and all of Manitoba proud. Special thanks to host committee chair Randy Wolgemuth for having the dream to bring this historic tournament to Manitoba and for letting all those who attended share in a tremendous sporting experience. It was a week that all of us will long remember. Thank you. Day Nursery Centre 100th Anniversary Mr. Rob Altemeyer (Wolseley): Mr. Speaker, I rise today in recognition of the 100th anniversary of Day Nursery Centre.

Since 1909, Day Nursery Centre has been providing child care to the residents of Winnipeg. For a century, this fantastic organization has provided a safe and healthy learning environment for thousands of children. They have also witnessed 10 decades of social change and evolving child-care needs. Day Nursery Centre began in the early 1900s, when a recently incorporated club known as the Mother's Association of Winnipeg became aware that many children were being neglected due to the fact that their mothers needed to work.

The compassion of the Mother's Association for their community and their sense of social innovation led to the birth of Manitoba's first day nursery. The Day Nursery Centre has evolved over the years from a focus on trained staff in the 1950s to an emphasis on structure and child-care curriculum in the 1970s. The guiding philosophy, however, at Day Nursery Centre to work with families and communities to develop a holistic care environment for children remains unchanged. The spirit of that philosophy is embodied in the efforts of Day Nursery staff today.

Fernanda Hodgson, for example, executive director of the centre, has committed no less than 30 years of service to Day Nursery Centre and was around in the early 1980s when regulations first appeared for child care. * (14:30) I'm proud to say that our provincial government continues to support child care today. Our most recent budget, 2009, commits to additional child-care and nursery school spaces, further wage increases for child-care staff and continued recruitment and retention initiatives. Early childhood care and education is a commitment to our communities.

While we still have obstacles to overcome, the long history of Day Nursery Centre reveals that as long as we are willing

774 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2009 to work with the best interests of children and families in mind we can find solutions. Day Nursery Centre is the oldest child-care centre west of the Great Lakes. We can be proud that Manitoba is able to build on this legacy and remain a leader in providing child care. I ask all members to join me in congratulating Day Nursery Centre on 100 years of service to the community. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Winkler and District Chamber of Commerce Mr. Peter Dyck (Pembina): Mr.

Speaker, April 16, Thursday, Winkler and District Chamber of Commerce had their 87th annual gala dinner, and I had the opportunity to attend that event. The chamber is a valuable part of our community, and the work that is done is important to the continued growth of our city. Congratulations on having had a very successful year, as your membership has increased by almost 11 percent in 2008, bringing its total to 323 members in the Winkler area. I would like to thank Ken Thomas, past president of the chamber, for the work that he has done.

His tireless service under extremely stressful circumstances, especially the past few months, is appreciated by the entire community. I would also like to congratulate Betty Hiebert on becoming the new president of the chamber. I wish her well in her many and varied responsibilities as president of the very successful chamber. This year, three businesses received the P.W. Enns Business Achievement award. Congratulations to Meridian Manufacturing Group, Grandeur Housing Incorporated and Valley Bowling Lanes for being honoured with this award.

You have all worked very hard to be recognized with this accomplishment, and it is because of people like you that we have such a vibrant chamber in this area. The growth we continue to experience requires a recognition of infrastruct ure dollars, and I will continue to lobby the government to spend those dollars in an area where growth is still taking place. Finally, we had our guest speaker for the evening, who was Dr. Jeff Zabudsky of Red River College. He gave an address, and the title was Succeeding in Today's Global Economy: the Role of Education.

The subject certainly was relevant and timely, as it was important for our local businesses to remain strong during the economic challenges that they are facing now and in the future. Once again, congratulations to the award winners as well as to the members on the executive. Your service has helped contribute to the growth of our community and for that we are grateful and wish you continued success. Thank you. Norway House Public Library Mr. Frank Whitehead (The Pas): Mr. Speaker, I am pleased to rise in the House today to inform all members of a wonderful new development in my constituency of The Pas.

The community of Norway House will be getting a new public library thanks to a joint pilot project between University College of the North and Norway House Cree Nation. The project has its sights set on providing real and virtual materials for both local UCN students and the general public in Norway House. If the pilot project is successful, as I am sure it will be, it will set a precedent for getting additional public libraries started in other northern communities. The history of literacy in the north reveals that the Cree in Norway House were once the most literate in Manitoba.

In 1840, James Evans, a Methodist minister and a Norway House Cree, invented Cree syllabics, enabling them to begin writing their language for the first time, initiating the spark that started a wildfire of literacy. In the same way, public libraries are able to spark the wildfire of literacy and innovation in a community. They contribute to the stimulation of new ideas and increased dialogue, not to mention they provide a wealth of research resources that are essential in today's knowledge-based economy. I am pleased to see this partnership working with the best interests of Norway House residents in mind.

UCN is donating financial resources and staff training and is performing administrative duties. Norway House Cree Nation, Training and Culture Division, is providing the building, security, personnel and financial resources for staffing and maintenance. Once renovations are complete and the staff is in place, by the end of summer, residents of Norway House will be able to access more than 10,000 volumes, computer resources, educational DVDs and classic films. I look forward to s eeing the programs for children, youth and adults in the community that will develop as this new project moves ahead.

April 20, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 775 It is an exciting time to live in northern Manitoba. The new library is both a symbol of UCN pursuing its vision of supporting education for northern people and a progressive step towards the exchange of ideas in our democratic society. I invite members of the Legislature to join me in congratulating the University College of the North and the Norway House Cree Nation on their significant partnership. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Osborne House 35th Anniversary Ms.

Jennifer Howard (Fort Rouge): It's my pleasure today to stand and honour Osborne House, which is celebrating its 35th anniversary this year. As many members in the House will know, Osborne House provides shelter, education and counselling to women and children who are leaving abusive situations at home. Yesterday, I attended the Women Business Owners of Manitoba Tulips and Tea fundraiser, which was held to raise money for Osborne House.

I would also like to let honourable members know of a current program at Osborne House, which is their tutoring program, where they help kids who are in shelter continue their education in partnership with the Winnipeg School Division No. 1 and the Department of Education. Currently, Osborne House is collecting shoes for these kids, new athletic shoes, and my constituency office is pleased to be involved with that initiative by collecting those shoes.

I would like to thank the executive director of Osborne House, Carol Ellerbeck, her staff and volunteers for the services they have provided to thousands of women and children over the last 35 years. They will be honoured at a reception at the end of the month at Government House. I think all of us in this House owe Osborne House a debt of gratitude for the important work they have done, not only to bring attention to violence against women, but to help end that violence in the lives of so many women and children. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Hon.

Dave Chomiak (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker, I wonder if you might resolve the House into Committee of Supply. Mr. Speaker: We will now resolve into Committee of Supply. Would the Chairs please go to the appropriate rooms where you will be chairing, please. COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY (Concurrent Sections) JUSTICE * (14:40) Madam Chairperson (Marilyn Brick): Will the Committee of Supply please come to order. This

section of the Committee of Supply will now consider the Estimates of the Department of Justice. Does the honourable minister have an opening statement? Hon. Dave Chomiak (Minister of Justice and Attorney General): Yes, Madam Chairperson. Normally, I don't give a lengthy opening statement, but the department always prepares these notes for me that talk about some of the accomplishments of the department, and I don't think I give the department the due for the hard work that they do. An Honourable Member: That's what you said last year, and you did it. Mr. Chomiak: And I did it? Good.

I'll do the same thing this year then. Just let me briefly go through the notes for everyone's purpose. The department has taken some obvious objectives and strategies in the budget to deal with safer communities, which is taking action on gangs and organized crime, improving support for children and victims of violent crime, providing strong support for policing, strengthening the ability of the courts to provide fair and effective dispositions and investing in information communication technology.

On Aboriginal justice, as all would know, the department is continuing to respond to the recommendations of the AJI. On offender accountability, the department works very hard to maintain an adequate physical infrastructure to safely house sentenced inmates, addressing need of special offender populations and maintaining effective fine enforcement capacity. With respect to establishing now the criminal property forfeiture unit, there will be seven new positions and $464,000 in dedicated new funding. With amendments that came into place, the property

776 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2009 of an individual who is a member of criminal organization is presumed to be proceeds of crime unless there is evidence to the contrary. Notwithstanding the fact that the proceeds of crime has taken in several million dollars over the past few years, this particular piece of legislation, now strengthened based on models from other provinces where it's been made to work, we think, will work effectively in Manitoba.

With respect to strategies, we're providing $17,000 in funding in support of a pilot project in Swan Valley, committee for the elimination of sexual abuse, trauma abuse and recovery for adult survivors. The project is called Trust, put together recognizing and understanding sexual trauma. One of its core objectives is to provide counselling services to adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse in the north Parkland region. We will continue our investment and the establishment of a new maintenance enforcement management system.

The new system will provide the maintenance enforcement program with greater capacity to enforce court orders and separation agreements. Plans are under way to establish five new Lighthouses. This will bring the total number to 60 Lighthouses. Make use of schools, recreation centres and other community facilities for sport, art, music and other activities. On April 9, amendments to The Victims' Bill of Rights were introduced to address the recommendations made in the Taman Inquiry and the act would also enhance services to victims of crime and their family members.

With regard to safer community strategy, the department proposed, as all will know, a new police act. The Province is increasing its investment in the Provincial Police Service Agreement to support our RCMP operations in Manitoba with a $6.4-million funding increase. Manitoba Intergovernmental Affairs is also providing funding to support 10 new officer positions for Winnipeg Police Service with one additional officer for Brandon Police Service.

We're also extending the police initiatives in the schools for three more years, and there will be some innovation with respect to policing arising, hopefully, out of a passage of the police act and subsequent actions that would be taken vis-à-vis the police act. A

summary conviction court is gaining six new positions and funding increases of $547,000 to deal with increased workload pr essures. The budget also ensures development of a co-operative justice program which will enable the provincial court system, the victims services system and the correction officer management system to exchange information and significantly enhance the process requiring inter-divisional co-operation.

This is no small feat because, recently, when I attended the meeting on ministers of Justice and public safety across Canada, it was the single biggest issue on the mind of one of the ministers; it was the single biggest issue. This change will also allow the electronic exchange of information with external partners, particularly policing agencies. Under the Aboriginal Justice initiative, $1 million in funding in '09-10 to support the Aboriginal Justice strategy with the Manitoba Métis Federation–SCO, MKO–to focus on crime prevention and community justice initiatives in Aboriginal communities.

This will enhance commitments to existing First Nation workers and an expansion of the MKO communities which took place in 2008-2009. * (14:50) The SCO project will involve implementing similar First Nations community worker programs for its southern communities, amounting to approximately 70,000 people, as is similar now to the MKO existing project, and the Manitoba Métis Federation community justice project will establish a complement of community justice workers located in five Métis locals across the province with a high percentage of Métis people.

Our government is increasing its investment in Aboriginal policing as well, Madam Chairperson. With regard to offender accountability, as all members know, we've completed construction of phase 1 of Milner Ridge, and now the department is proceeding with commencing the operation of the $150-million expansion with 81-plus staff positions and $4.8 million in new funding; $2.2 million in funding and 25.7 new staff positions have been added to the Manitoba Youth Centre.

Construction will soon replace the women's correctional facility and this will be an alternative facility that will provide culturally appropriate programming, and focus on longer term sent ence, Aboriginal and First Nation women, transitional housing assistance to allow those released from custody to reconnect with community in a positive way. The Province's capital

April 20, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 777 budget includes resource of the acquisition of core equipment, which is closed -circuit TV upgrades and physical security improvements. With respect to offe nder accountab ility, the department is increasing funding to the Elizabeth Fry Society in the amount of $179,000 to enable to operate the bail supervision program for up to 20 remanded women.

Madam Chairperson, $301,000 from the federal government will be dedicated to manage the caseload of youth and corrections serving intensive rehabilitative custody and supervision–that's the IRCS–which is becoming increasingly more difficu lt. Then, under offender accountability strategies, the department has added a new position dedicated to enhance the court order restitution program. Just in

summary, I want to thank all members of the department, right ac ross the board, for the tremendous work that the department's put in. As an example, I don't think anyone literally believed that the turnaround could be achieved on the Taman report on the recommendations as fast as they were.

This isn't as a result of my work; it's as a result of the incredible work of the department, including all of the work done on the police act and other acts, as well as the tremendous work that goes on in our facilities by an incredibly dedicated and committed group of people, some of whose jobs I would not want to have, whose jobs I greatly admire the work they're undertaking.

So, with those few comments, I can complete my statement, again, than king all of you in the department, whether you're in Prosecutions, Corrections, doing the rehab work, you're the community prosecutor; if you're one of the people doing teaching in the Youth Centre, if you're one of the people that's out there dealing with serious and difficult youth, if you're out there dealing with just the public in general, thank you for your dedication at a time when there's not a lot of recognition for the public sector work done by people in the public service.

It's a credit to you all that you continue the work under very trying circumstances. Thank you, Madam Chairperson. Madam Chairperson: We thank the minister for those comments. Does the official opposition critic have an opening statement? Mr. Kelvin Goertzen (Steinbach): Thank you very much, Madam Chairperson. I thank the minister for his opening statement. Looking back on some of the past Estimates, I've noticed the minister has often started by saying that he doesn't usually do an opening statement, and then he does it on behalf of staff. I'm actually glad he does, because (

a) he took the time to prepare it, and (

b) I don't think, sometimes, they do get the recognition that they deserve. It was a good way to give that credit where credit is due, probably more so–this might be a dangerous thing to say–but probably more so than any department.

I sometimes feel for those who are working in the Department of Justice because they don't often have those sorts of photo-ready moments that you get in other areas if you're opening a highway, or if you're opening some sort of a public-use building that isn't usually– sometimes, I guess, there's an exception, but, generally, there aren't those sorts of photo-ready moments for those who are working in Justice. Yet they do such a valuable service that it's unfortunate they don't, as the minister says, maybe get the recognition and credit that they deserve.

So this is maybe a small step by having the opening statement by the minister, but it was time well spent, if nothing else, than for that reason alone. I look forward to the Estimates process. You know, sometimes, here in the Legislature and beyond, the format that we deal with, whether it's question period or the media, is a bit more adversarial and it's harder to get into the depth of discussions and harder to get into meaningful, respectful discussion. That's just, sort of, how our legislative process is set up. It has different elements and different stages.

Estimates, I find, is often, can be one of those times where you do have a good back-and-forth about ideas and issues and problems, and I think sometimes there are some very good things that come from that process. Not that there aren't good things that come from the other parts of the legislative process, but this is certainly a valuable one, and I look forward to engaging in it with the minister. I know that staff are going to be introduced shortly by the minister as they approach the table.

I think, at least for today, looking to start off asking questions about Corrections, some questions on recidivism, the electronic monitoring program and courts. I don't think we'll get much further than that today and probably won't even get through that, but I wanted to give a bit of a heads-up in case there are some staff that aren't involved in those areas and they have other things to do, and that's fine. If there are

778 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2009 other members who would come and ask questions not related to Corrections, recidivism, electronic monitoring or the courts, then I'm certainly prepared just to take those questions or have the minister report back those answers, but I want to be respectful of staff's time, too. So wherever I can, I'll give you an indication of where we're going. Often, as we get further into this, and maybe closer to the end of the process, it gets a bit more scattered and maybe not as systematic, but we'll take it as we go from there.

I appreciate the minister mentioning issues around the police act and others. Certainly, we'll have questions regarding the police act. I know that piece of legislation is before the House, and I'll have a briefing with the minister in the future–I think it's already been scheduled–but there might be some questions just generally on the structure of that. We, obviously, are supportive of the rework of the police act.

It might not agree with every line and direction, or every part of the act, but certainly we agree that there needed to be a rework of the act, and we'll have some discussions about how the final product, or the close-to-final product, I suppose, has come out. So, with that, Madam Chairperson, I think you'll probably want to ask the minister to bring forward the members of his department. Madam Chairperson: We thank the critic from the official opposition for those remarks. Under Manitoba practice, debate on the minister's salary is the last item considered for a department in the Committee of Supply.

Accordingly, we shall now defer consideration of line item 4.1.(a), contained in resolution 4.1. At this time, we invite the minister's staff to join us at the table and we ask that the minister introduce the staff in attendance. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, I appreciate the fact that the member has indicated where he is going. I'm appreciative of his understanding of the fact that Estimates takes a lot of time and work.

While the department has to prepare for that, they also have to manage day to day, and I appreciate the fact that he understands that, and I think it's well-regarded by all of us. *(15:00) I'm joined by the deputy minister, Jeff Schnoor. I'm also joined by the executive director, Administration and Finance, Patrick Sinnott. I'm joined by the assistant deputy minister of Courts, Dave Brickwood; the assistant deputy minister, Corrections, Greg Graceffo.

I' ve been joined by the executive director, Policy Development and Analysis, and the person who knows almost everything about some things that none of us know anything about, David Greening. I'm joined by the comptroller, Aurel Tess. Stan ding in for the assistant deputy A.G., Prosecutions, Michele Jules, senior Crown attorney; and the assistant deputy minister, Criminal Justice, Mike Horn. Madam Chairperson: Thank you very much, Minister. At this time, I'm going to ask about how we will be proceeding.

Does the committee wish to proceed through the Estimates of this department chronologically, or have a global discussion? Mr. Goertzen: Well, I think I tipped my hat a little bit early, or showed my hand a bit earlier. I'd like to have a global discussion in the areas that I sort of forewarned about. An Honourable Member: Agreed. Madam Chairperson: Agreed. Thank you. It is agreed that the questioning for this department will proceed in a global manner, with all resolutions to be passed once questioning has been concluded. The floor is now open for questions. Mr.

Goertzen: First of all, I appreciate the fact that sometimes members of my office call the department for current capacity numbers in the prison–or current incarceration numbers in the various provincial institutions. I appreciate that we get those fairly quickly. That's not just a political issue. I think it's important, when you're dealing with the liberty of individuals, that members of the Legislature have that ability to sort of check up in a variety of different ways. I know we are able to tour the prisons and that sort of thing, as well.

But, just, first of all, my thanks for the ability for us to get those Corrections capacity numbers in a pretty timely fashion. With that in mind, you won't be surprised that I'm going to ask you for the current capacity per institution, as recently as you have them. I know you usually produce them on a daily basis, but sort of whatever you have. I'm looking for the capacity and then the actual number of incarcerated at those facilities, by institution.

April 20, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 779 Mr. Chomiak: For the AYC, the in-house count is 82; the rated capacity is 100. To continue on correctly, the BYU, Brandon youth centre, it's 2; rated beds is 6. The CSU, there's none there now; rated capacity is 10. The MYC is 156; rated capacity is 150. With adults–oh, yes, The Pas unit has an in- house population right now of zero, with a rated capacity of 4. That's for the youth. Adults, the BCC is an in-house population of 256; rated capacity 164. Dauphin is a population of 62; rated capacity 61. Headingley is 667; rated capacity 485.

The Remand Centre is 272; rated capacity 284. The PCC is 59; rated capacity 35. The TPCC is 105; rated capacity is 74. Oh, I made that wrong. It was MRCC at 272; rated capacity 284. And the Winnipeg Remand Centre is 372; rated capacity 289. Mr. Goertzen: I thank the member for the answer, and that's as of today. The minister has made comments both in the House and through various announcements in the past about the increasing of capacity at Milner Ridge. I know it is to be a part of the expansion already. Maybe there's another part to come.

Interested in knowing the date of expected completions for any upcoming capital projects fo r incarceration capacity in the province that aren't already completed. Mr. Chomiak: Well, the member will know that the women's correctional facility is in the precipitous stage– actually work being undertaken which will have a scheduled completion date for 2011, although I'm hopeful that it might be sooner, which will take a fair bit of capacity off. There are planning capacities around most of the configurations as we speak.

There are a number of strategies that are being looked at, and the capacity of Milner Ridge is also obviously considered for expansion. We're at a particularly defining moment in some of our capacity issues, so I can't precisely give the member dates of completion today. I might have a better understanding of that in a week or two, and I can provide some dates to the member at that time. Mr. Goertzen: That's fine. I appreciate the minister's undertaking on that. I know there was an April 2006 release that I was looking at a few days ago that indicated the women's prison would be completed in 2009.

Clearly, that's not going to happen. The minister mentioned it would be 2011. Can he sort of elaborate on what some of the issues were on the delay of that prison? Mr. Chomiak: Essentially, the idea was to take a concept that was a hundred-year-old building based on a hundred-year-old planning and try to build a facility that woul d recognize the next 50 years, so there was planning, planning input and capacity issues related to that. In a nutshell, I would say that's the single most significant issue relating to that structure. I also indicated that the completion date is targeted for 2011.

I'm hoping that target date will be sooner than that, but that's as close as I could outline. Obviously, the more sophisticated the approach to the facility, the higher the expense as well. That's also a factor that's in consideration in all of our capital projects insofar as we have a very robust capital plan in the billions of dollars across the province. Mr. Goertzen: I think it's a wise approach to sort of underpromise and overdeliver on the completion date.

Maybe a predecessor didn't have that same approach, although I know he had a lot of projects on the go as well. * (15:10) On the capacity, numbers were given to us on the adult current incarceration, and it's not that I don't trust my math, but it's sometimes better to get it from the experts. Can you just state, then, what the current total incarceration for adults is in the province, and what the total capacity for adult incarceration is in the province, as of today? I'm sort of looking for the shortfall, if there is any in capacity. [interjection] No, I don't actually. Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, on the adult side it's–in house today is 1,793, and the capacity is 1,392. Mr. Goertzen: All right, so the shortfall of close to 400. I think my math is right, there. The minister talks about plans on a go-forward basis to try to ensure that there is capacity. Earlier he mentioned there is a robust capital project. Can he sort of indicate if there is a plan to ensure that the rated capacity is equal to the incarceration, at least as of today, and sort of where, in the stream, those capital projects are? Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, obviously, the goal is to have a capacity that adequately meets

780 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2009 demand. There are several factors that are literally changing as we speak. The reason I was a bit he sitant giving specifics to the member in terms of the capital projects going forward is because we've adjusted, and are adjusting them, based on projected populations based on a whole series of factors.

If the two-for-one remand matter becomes a significant factor, if the recent sentencing trends on the Criminal Code become a significant factor, if we have an earlier opening, for example, of the women's prison, it'll be a significant factor in terms of population management. So there are a number of scenarios that play out.

Just as an anecdote, I'll provide–when the ministers of Justice got together across western Canada and saw that the capacity was extraordinarily tight everywhere, one of the ministers' premiers suggested a remand centre for western Canada, which got a lot of coverage but, when ministers sat down again together and lo oked at the concept and the idea, we quickly dismissed it. To this point, I don't think the particular minister who made the suggestion has been demoted or anything yet, but it was a reaction on the part of the premiers to capacity issues, but it wasn't as well thought out as it might have been.

So that's a long way of saying that we have a number of planning actions, and more than planning actions, in our scenario. I'll try to get some of the dates to the member, but there are issues that ar e changing as we speak, including–and we may get to this in Estimates–some ideas about remand populations and how events might affect remands to bring down the remand population in custody, et cetera. So I'll try to get the dates to the member, but we do have planning scenarios. Mr. Goertzen: I appreciate, first of all, your comment about the Minister of Justice sort of cutting policy on the fly.

That's probably not a good idea for any of us, although, you know, it's sometimes an occupational hazard. But there has been the discussion about the two-for-one elimination and it looks like that's going to go forward. I think that both of our parties have been on the same side of that. I think we actually sort of rushed to get out, or who could get out their release first in support of the federal government movement on two-for-one.

I know there have been discussions of more mandatory minimum sentences, changes to how conditional sentences are applied, probably more changes coming to the Youth Criminal Justice Act, but we'll see on that. So there are a lot of changes happening on the federal side, and I applaud the federal government for that. I know the minister has done that, as well, in the past.

I guess what I'm trying to hone in on is, as it stands today, you know, I wouldn't think that the changes that the federal Conservative government are bringing in would reduce incarceration numbers, although maybe the minister has done an analysis that might indicate that it would. But, if we go under the assumption that the inca rceration numbers aren't likely to decline from today, and that they possibly could increase–well, let's just assume that they stay the same at this moment–there has to be a plan to fill that 400-or-so gap between the rate of capacity and the current incarceration.

You know, some might talk about a new adult male facility. Maybe there are other expansions that the minister is looking at, but, I mean, is there a plan at this point to fill the differentiation between the current incarceration numbers and the rate of capacity? Mr. Chomiak: In short, yes. I wasn't implying necessarily that there'd be less people in incarceration.

I mean, there are some interesting issues that haven't been canvassed about the two- year-less-a-day and two-y ear sentences and what impact some of those might have, vis-à-vis the remand changes that might come into effect, plus some of the issues, I think, that we'd like to address with respect to remand. But, in short, there will be need for increased capacity, and there will be measures put in place to deal with that. Mr. Goertzen: I appreciate that. I think that's fairly forthcoming.

You know, in the changes that are happening on the federal side, I know that some of them are sort of foreshadowed and talked about over the last few years. There has been discussion at this Estimates' table with the former critic and the former, former critic–who was me–asking questions about the possible increase in number s as a result of two-for- one elimination, mandatory minimums.

At that point, I remember–I think it was your predecessor– indicating that the department had sort of done a study about what the possible implications could be of some of the, at that time, the discussed about changes from the federal government. Do you have any–I'm sure that the analysis is done at this point, but could you indicate what that

April 20, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 781 analysis looked at, first of all, and what the results of the analysis were. Mr. Chomiak: I know that going into each FPT meeting we generally have an analysis of what custody times might be as a result of particular changes to the Criminal Code. So I have some of that in retrospect that I can–some of that has occurred and some of that hasn't occurred because of variations on the amendments made to the Criminal Code. I don't have anything in front of me now with respect to the two-for-one remands.

I do know that there was a study undertaken at the federal-provincial level to try to drill down on remand and remand numbers. There's no conclusive data that I was informed of that would enlighten any of us other than, I think, what we intuitively view of that. Just to continue, I'm informed that some of the speculation is at the high end of–if the changes come through and start taking effect at the high end, there might be more prisoners going into the federal system.

At the low end, there might be more prisoners going into our system, which may or may not, but, inevitably, it will mean increased capacity needs unless we're able to see a significant change in behaviour, which, I think, we're all hoping with respect to the change on remand. I think we're all anticipating that we'll have the capacity to move matters faster, and that matters will work through the system faster. I think some people on the defence side may suggest the opposite. So, having said that, that's the most updated information that I have at this point. Mr. Goertzen: All right.

Certainly, I've heard different bits of analysis coming from defence lawyers, coming from academics, coming from other politicians about what the results might be on some of these changes, and they're not a uniform consensus on what might happen. But the minister indicates that there has been some analysis done in his department on the changes that are going to happen, or could of potentially happened, federally, whether it's two-for-one or maybe mandatory minimums or other changes, and what that might do to incarceration numbers. Is he able to share that information or that analysis with me? * (15:20) Mr.

Chomiak: I'm generally told that this is FPT stuff, right, in internal–I could share–part of the difficulty, I think, was sharing some of this information, as some of it has turned out to be not accurate in terms of actual impact, so some information with respect to, for example, the amendments that still haven't got through we haven't seen the increase in our populations. On some amendments that have gone through, I don't think we have the data yet, so we don't have anything in two- for-one per se.

We might have something on conditional sentencing and other matters that we could provide the member on the assumption that the accuracy is based on the time lines and the information is based on a speculation basis. Mr. Goertzen: That's fine. I appreciate that. I don't expect the minister just to give me information when he's right. Sometimes when things haven't borne out, that's fine to get the information too. I understand there are changes and maybe what was thought to be happening federally has come out to be something different and that impacts the outcome too.

I just think the thought proces s and the analysis are important, and I think there are some lessons that can be learned even if the changes on the federal side haven't been sort of four squares with where the analysis was looking at. Could the minister indicate what the cost per incarceration per day is in Manitoba? I know that's a difficult question because it might differ by the offender, but if we looked at Headingley Correctional institution for example, what the cost per incarceration would be at that institution. Mr.

Chomiak: The Headingley cost daily average to the end of March blended is up '08, blended is 132 per inmate per day. Mr. Goertzen: Sorry, could you just explain what the blended portion of that means? Mr. Chomiak: It's operating and salary, and probably some fixed costs I think. It's operating and salary. Mr. Goertzen: And would it be similar or what would the number be for the youth centre in Winnipeg, for example? Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, 225 at the Manitoba Youth Centre. Mr. Goertzen: And the higher cost of incarceration of a youth as opposed to an adult, is that sort of a volume issue or–

782 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2009 Mr. Chomiak: Yes. I'm advised it has to do with programming implications and economies of scale as well. I also suspect it might be related to structure as well, too, but that's my layperson's view. Mr. Goertzen: I think the economies of scale and the volume issue, that sort of makes sense. What are the kinds of programming that would be available to a youth that would differ from an adult at Headingley? Mr. Chomiak: Operating the school for example, and with teachers 12 months of the year at the youth centre on a daily basis and that type of initiative. Mr.

Goertzen: I think there was an anticipation of the next question about sort of a breakdown of the costs that occurred through youth and through adults at Headingley. Does it get broken down more than–it must, because you arrive at the number, obviously, so there must be some way of determining, or is it just simply an operating number plus your cost numbers, and you just divide it by the number of people in the prison at the day? Mr. Chomiak: I don't think you can quite look at it that way because of the type of population and the remand factor that fits into that. So it's not that precise.

To the extent that they can do that, I don't think they can. To the extent that, I guess, there is a difference, it's dealing with youth who are under The Youth Criminal Justice Act and dealing with individuals who are under the criminal code act and the special circumstances related to those categories, but these are straight averages base d on operating costs, et cetera, that are worked out based on number of days, population, et cetera.

Obviously, when you tour MYC and when you tour remand and when you tour Headingley, and you see the structural and the other related differences, you can also extrapolate from that as well. Mr. Goertzen: Does the department sort of look at other jurisdictions and how we compare on those numbers between the cost of incarceration in Manitoba for a youth or an adult as compared to other jurisdictions in Canada? Mr. Chomiak: I don't think so. I think if you think about it, it has a lot to do with the jurisdictions and the date and time of the construction of their facilities, et cetera.

So there's no particular comparison that we do. I note that following a little problem in Regina, they're now constructing a new remand centre in Saskatoon, for example, which I think will probably have significantly higher operating costs than the older, though renewed correction centre in Regina. So, aside from that, I don't think we have–and the physical plant, the cost of salaries–all of those are so different that I think it's difficult to come up with a standard figure. Mr. Goertzen: All right.

I mean we don't feel that that it's without value, that sort of comparison, but I recognize that there are challenges in making a straight comparison for a variety of different reasons. But I think sometimes those comparisons are helpful when you're looking at how things are run in the different jurisdictions.

Moving on, though, I'm curious to know on a day-to-day basis, the type of training or type of work program that an adult inmate at Headingley would experience who isn't on remand, so he's been sentenced to Headingley, the sort of day-to-day activity, both on the work side and maybe a training side, that they might experience. Mr. Chomiak: Yes, in the interests of time, I'm just wondering if the member would accept a written response to that. Mr. Goertzen: Yes, that would be fine.

Then, just in that, maybe the department or the staff could just sort of outline the differences both between the remand– and I know the remand has less options unless you sort of agree, I guess, than to programming as somebody who's been sentenced right. So those sorts of comparisons would be helpful. * (15:30) You know, it's not the reason I ask, and I'm actually hesitant in some ways to ask, but the minister would know when he talks to constituency in a variety of different questions that people ask for a variety of different reason s, and they see different things.

One of the things a number of people actually have asked me over the last little while when there was sort of a call for sandbaggers–and this happens anytime there's sort of th ese issues, you know–why do they see other jurisdictions where prisoners, probably low-risk prisoners, are involved in some of those activities, whether it's cleaning activities, but it's not? They don't see it in Manitoba. Maybe it happens and it's just not seen. But are those sorts of activities that our prisoners are involved in, or is there some restriction that doesn't allow them to participate in those sorts of activities?

April 20, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 783 Mr. Chomiak: With regard to something like sandbagging, which is driven by Emergency Measures, it's a bit of a different issue. As the member knows, our largest population is remand. When we look at our sentenced population, we don't think that the public would be that supportive of the offenders, generally, being out doing those kinds of public works. Mr. Goertzen: What, then, is the breakdown, currently, in Headingley of those who are on remand or those who are sentenced? It used to be, like, 70-30 or 65-35. Is that still, sort of, the ballpark? Mr.

Chomiak: Yes. Mr. Goertzen: So the minister indicates that the public, generally, wouldn't want to see sentenced offenders who aren't posing a risk doing those public works, whether it's cleaning the ditches that sometimes, I guess, churches, charities and neighbourhoods are doing these days. Does he have a survey on that or how does he come to that conclusion? Is it just anecdotally that he feels the public wouldn't be supportive of that? Mr. Chomiak: If one were to look at the sentenced population and the type of offence that they're in for, it's pretty easy to draw a conclusion. Mr.

Goertzen: I'll go a step further because it sort of leads into some other questions. The composition, then, of those who are se ntenced in Headingley, those who might be identified as gang members versus non-gang members, does the minister have some sort of indication of how many of those who are sentenced in Headingley would be considered to be gang members? Mr. Chomiak: I don't, and I wouldn't reveal that data. Mr.

Goertzen: I know when I visited Stony Mountain some time ago, and I hesitate to give the date, lest I be held to it, they're pretty forthcoming in that in terms of how they identify individuals who are entering that federal institution and how many people they would know are members of a gang going into it. Is that sort of analysis not done on the provincial side? Mr.

Chomiak: Just to put it into context, when I did criminal work, it was a long time ago, but when I did criminal law work and regularly visited those sites, the difference–I suppose we're saying something like 25 years ago–the difference between the population then and the population now is dramatic. The categorization and classification and efforts taken both inside the units and outside with respect to dealing with gang issues is almost an art that's been developed, and it's radically different than when I was involved in criminal law.

Suffice to say that the impact of organized crime within institutions is significant in terms of their presence, and it's something that we're very conscious of. Mr. Goertzen: I appreciate that. I know the department and the minister would be conscious of that. It's probably two years ago. Now, I'm going to, you know, take that risk that I said I wouldn't in the last question, that I visited Stony Mountain. At that time, they indicated–it was a public meeting. It wasn't a secret that, you know, about 80 percent of the individuals at Stony were known to have gang affiliation, at least prior to entering the prison.

I don't know if they sort of did that ongoing analysis, if they continued on. But is that analysis either not done provincially, or is it just not publicly revealed provincially? Mr. Chomiak: I can indicate that the provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta have come to Manitoba to receive advice on management of gang members in populations, so maybe that helps answer the question. Mr. Goertzen: It's sort of the art of try to answer the question without answering the question. I mean, I understand that–I know, it's shocking to the minister of industry.

The question–and the minister might not like this question either–but certainly those who are involved with policing in other institutions, you know, indicate to me that they'r e segregating those who are involved with gangs at the prison to keep them together as gangs and keep them apart from each other. Can he indicate if that's happening at Headingley? Mr. Chomiak: Since 1995-96 I should say– Manitoba has followed the–Headingley has followed the separation concept, and that's one of the things that other jurisdictions have come here to receive information on. Mr. Goertzen: That's fair.

I guess if the segregation is happening, then I'm not sure why there's the reluctance to indicate the number of gang members. If there's a certain security reason that is involved, I

784 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2009 can accept that, and maybe I'm just missing what that sort of security issue would be. I'm sure the prisoners know–who are at Headingley–who are gang members and who aren't. I'm just not sure why there's a concern about putting on the record the percentage of known gang members who are serving incarcerated time. Mr. Chomiak: I am very reluctant to provide that kind of information publicly , as are my colleagues, I think, across the country.

I don't even know if the member knew that we actually attended a gang forum with the then-Minister of Public Safety, Stockwell Day, that was sort of closed to all information up–so it's something I'm very sensitive about, providing information on–largely because sometimes I'm afraid that if I say something that I don't pick up on as a significant security factor, it may be a significant security factor and I'd rather not.

I'd rather err on the side of caution than err on the side of–so, briefing, I don't think there's a problem if the member wants a briefing from some of our officials on this, but the extent that I go and make public statements, I prefer not to. Mr. Goertzen: Well, that's fine. I'll accept a briefing on that, and we can maybe tie that into some of the bill briefings, if you want, going forward so we don't have to sort of overwhelm you or staff with other meetings.

Specifically, at Headingley–actually, not specifically at Headingley, just generally across the provincial institutions, how are incidents against guards measured? I mean incidents, places where those who are incarcerated, I guess, either have a physical interaction or interaction that warrants some sort of a report to be registered with those in the institutions, how are inci dents against guards measured within Manitoba? * (15:40) Mr.

Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, they are managed by way of code calls, and code calls denote the type of incident and the extent to which it will be dealt with and, also, the effect of the consequences of a particular code. That information is obviously internal. Mr. Goertzen: So there exist, then, records of how many incidents by code have happened within the institutions. Is that right? Mr. Chomiak: Obviously, every code incident is noted. If the member is looking for specific accumulation or comparative analysis in that respect, we don't have that. Mr. Goertzen: All right.

Just for my own clarification then, is ther e a

summary of what these code violations would be? You know, there can't be hundreds of them. I'm as suming that there are a handful of different codes of how individuals would report verbal threats, physical altercations, that sort of thing. Mr. Chomiak: Madam Chairperson, they're not overly complex in terms of the number of different kinds of codes, and they occur in various institutions at various times. I guess that's not a very good answer is it? With respect to the comparative or actual accumulation or actual numbers, I don't have that. Mr. Goertzen: All right, well, the minister said it.

It actually wasn't a very good answer, but, I think, we're getting toward an answer, which is good. But there does exist, and you might not have it with you today, but there exists–there has to–an accumulative number per year, I imagine, of code incidents that guards report per institution per year? Mr. Chomiak: The head of our Corrections is here. They are very conscious, obviously, on a daily basis, on a weekly and a monthly and a regular basis, as to occurrences in institutions, and they monitor and respond accordingly.

Obviously, security issues and safety issues are paramount and, in that respect, there's–I don't have any information that I could offer that would provide any further information to the member in this line of questioning. Mr. Goertzen: For clarity, I suppose. So a guard has an incident, whatever the incident might be, with an inmate, whether it's physical or verbal. They then report that incident to somebody. Is that correct? Mr. Chomiak: It depends on the kind of occurrence it is, whether or not a report, quote, is made. An incident occurs, there is a reaction. It may or may not go further than that. Mr.

Goertzen: Sure and that's fair. So the guard exercises his discretion. Let' s assume that they feel the incident warrants some sort of a report. Who, then, do they report that to? Mr. Chomiak: Incident reports would work through the supervisors to the head of the institution.

April 20, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 785 Mr. Goertzen: Okay, then it would be same then, I guess, for other institutions if it didn't happen at Headingley. Then would th ere be a follow-up where there's–you know, would there be a record made of it? I guess there'd be some sort of a process that happens from there? Mr. Chomiak: There could be any number of responses: There could be charges for the police, there could be internal di scipline, there could be a unit reaction, there could be individual sanctions. Any number of solutions could be assessed. Mr.

Goertzen: That's fair, and I guess one would expect that. Then there is some sort of a record made and the resolution of the issue. But somewhere in there exists the number of these incidents that happen per institution per year? They don't just sort of disappear. They're kept and recorded in terms of the number I'm assuming. Mr. Chomiak: That type of information would not be on the public record. Mr. Goertzen: Nor would it be sort of forbidden for the public for seeing that, if somebody would ask for that information. It's not a security issue; it doesn't go to an individual's security. Fair enough.

The minister might argue that it is a security issue, but I guess the point is the information exists. It's not something that you put out in an annual report, it's not something you put out in a news release, but the information exists, and if somebody wanted to ask for the information, they could. Mr. Chomiak: I'm not sure that it would be that simple to access and acquire because of the nature of the various forms of types of incidents, codes and various solutions. So I don't think there would be necessarily the capacity to actually provide any kind of substantive response to that. Mr.

Goertzen: So, then, it would be more complicated than just simply tallying the number of incidents that were reported in a year, in Headingley, for example. It would be more complex then that? Mr. Chomiak: That's correct. Mr. Goertzen: Just to enlighten me, what adds to the complexity of that? Mr. Chomiak: There are a variety of issues. There are individual information prohibitions that apply. There's personal health information that applies. There are security issues th at apply.

One also has to take into account the fact that, certainly, in the case of Headingley, it also maintains some remand population as well so that there's an ongoing shuffle of people to and fro, so it's not as simplistic a stat as one might hope to find. * (15:50) Mr. Goertzen: Then one wouldn't want to overcomplicate it by sort of asking for the names of the guards or their personal health information, obviously.

One would probably just simply ask for the number of incidents and, just speaking of that, not asking for the minister for any names of any individuals or personal health information, does he have any indication whether or not these sorts of code incidences are increa sing on a yearly basis or whether or not it's stable or declining, perhaps? Mr.

Chomiak: I think it would be safe to say, without necessarily refe rencing to department officials, that a lot of lessons were learned in the '95 situation that occurred and much effort has gone into ensuring that the conditions are such that, to the extent possible, we try to prevent any occurrences of that type and kind. But, in dealing with this kind of situation, the member will know there was recently a major occurrence at the Stony Mountain, and I'm not sure if the specific analysis or that specific information can be and will be provided on the public record, nor is it even accessible. Mr.

Goertzen: So the minister then cites, you know, an incident in Headingley in the 1990s. He cites a federal incident more recen tly and said that lessons were learned, which would lead me to believe that there are less incidents, because lessons were learned. Yet he states that the information really isn't available, so I'm not sure how we can ascertain that lessons were learned, because he doesn't actually have the information to make that assessment. Is that correct? Mr.

Chomiak: I think it suffices to say that the lessons–there were a number of changes made to the functioning of the institution after 1995–pardon me, '96–and that those are ongoing changes, and that the institution evolves according to the type of offender, the technology and the related circumstances, and that occurs right across the corrections system at all levels. I'm conscious of a public safety minister at another jurisdiction pointing out that an incident occurred and that perhaps the guards had not been as diligent as they should've been, and that wasn't a smart comment to say, and he knew that in

786 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA April 20, 2009 retrospect. Information with regard to personal safety and security is not as cut and dried as might be, say, in another kind of institutional setting such as a school where you can have grades and you can have individual students and you can mark that information. It's significantly different in the environment of the corrections system. Mr. Goertzen: Sure, and I appreciate, obviously, we're not talking about elementary schools and that sort of thing, nor do I think we're talking about personal information.

I wouldn't want this minister or, frankly, any other, to sort of publicly question the actions of guards. To the contrary, I think that, if there are increased incide nts against guards, they would, you know, speak less about the actions of guards and more about the offenders that are in the institutions. So I don't think the minister has to worry too much about a wrong comment in that way. I suspect that there may be other avenues to try to seek out information such as that, that doesn't offend personal health records or personal information.

The minister references other institutions when he talks about education and I know in his former role as the Health Minister, numbers sometimes get used and maybe they're not always good measurements, but they get used to look at what sort of level of service or protection is being provided.

Is there, within the corrections field, is there sort of an acceptable target or an accepted target that is used for–and let's use Headingley as an example, because I know the institutions will differ for the number of guards per prisoners–is there a standard that is set out by either those who are working in the institutions or, more generally, about how many guards you should have in an institution that has a certain amount of offenders? Mr. Chomiak: Obviously, the foremost consideration in a correction facility is the safety of the guards and the inmates, and it's adjusted accordingly.

One of the difficulties, and we're going to get to this–the member has cited in the House recidivism rates. There's no standard for recidivism– and they're measured differently, for example, across the country and between the federal and the provincial governments. So there's no standard measure or comparative an alysis that you could apply that could be utilized in a standard ratio or standard way in the fluctuating nature of the population, particularly when you have a situation of a significant remand clientele, et cetera. So I don't have any further information to offer the member on that. Mr.

Goertzen: So, then, just for clarity, I know in the past Estimates with the former minister, we would talk about the number of probation officers and the number of cases that a probation officer might be dealing with and he would have thrown out a statistic in terms of what they were targeting to get to and what would be manageable. That doesn't exist when it comes to guards in an institution. There's no sort of target the department looks for.

It's just sort of, I guess, you might look at the number of incidents that a guard has or that a prison has and then say, okay, clearly, there are more challenges here than there are people to deal with those challenges, assuming that those records exist, and maybe the minister indicated they didn't exist. So I'm not exactly sure how you determine what's an optimal level. Mr. Chomiak: Like the health-care system, the corrections system can't turn people away, and has to adapt itself with respect to volume and capacity, and the uppermost consideration is always safety. Mr.

Goertzen: Sure, and of course, like the health-care system, though, when it becomes taxed and people, something falls through the cracks. We've seen really unfortunate circumstances like that recently. So you're right , while people don't ostensibly get turned away , there are consequences, obviously, for an overburdened system, whether it's education, health and justice, wouldn't be any different. I suppose there are different ways to measure, then, the challenges or the successes that guards are having in terms of their work environment.

It wouldn't be just incidences and maybe those aren't measured, seemingly aren't measured or easy to be put together–but, in stress time, sick time. Does the department look at that on a comparative basis, about how guards are doing on th e time that they're taking away? Is that a measurement we could use? * (16:00) Mr. Chomiak: I'm not sure to what use or extent the member's suggesting this information be applied. Obviously, the system, if you look at the expenditure FTE ratios, they're up significa ntly year over year in the Corrections Division, quite significantly.

That reflects the nature and the increase in the population. The most significant increase in the Department of Justice budget, it concer ns the corrections system, which is a reflection of the population and the numbers. I think that's as good an indication as any.

April 20, 2009 LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA 787 When we move into other areas respecting collective agreements, respecting matters related to working conditions, et cetera, we're in a bit of a different realm, and a lot of that issue gets sorted out at the bargaining table with respect to conditions, et cetera. That's, I think, the extent of the information I can provide the member. Mr.

Goertzen: The minister asks what use the information would be, and there are arguments, I guess, can be made that it isn't a particularly indicative sign of anything, although I know in certainly not just at the bargaining table, but sometimes health-care professionals will point to the number of stress time or sick time that individuals are taking in the system. They'll point to that as an indicator that the system is under stress. I don't think they just do it at the bargaining table, although I'm sure they do do it at the bargaining table and maybe that's a valuable measurement and maybe it's not.

I guess the question was whether or not the department actually measures the amount of sick time or stress time that is applied for and granted to those who are working in the provincial corrections institutions. Mr. Chomiak: Yes, I'm not trying to be difficult, but how does one measure stress? There's no specific category of stress, although we all know that, say in the last 10 years, there's been an acknowledgement of the impact that stress has on individuals in the workplace and in their functioning, et cetera.

So, obviously, the department measures time off, sick leave, et cetera, but after that I don't have any specifics for the member. Ms. Sharon Blady, Acting Chairperson, in the Chair With respect to the sick leave and those other matters, I'm not sure that those personnel records are necessarily available. Mr. Goertzen: So the minister acknowledges that sick leave and stress leave–sick leave is measured. Is there a category such as stress leave? I know other areas measure how much people ask for leave off for stress. Maybe that isn't done in the Department of Justice, and that's fine.

Is he saying that that isn't requested separately, it's simply sick time? Has that

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	39-3-27
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	39th 3rd hansardpdf 27.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	27f7109db472c061c31f9b8f3a30c28ed9a5979d

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).