Manitoba Hansard — 6 March 1979 (Sitting 14A, 31st Legislature, 3rd Session)

31-3-14a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

,, ISSN 0542-5492 Third Session - Thirty-First Legislature of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba DEBATES and PROCEEDINGS 28 Elizabeth II Published under the authority of The Honourable Harry E. Graham Speaker VOL. XXVII No. 14A 2:30 P.M. Tuesday, March 6, 1979 Office of the Queen's Printer for the Province of Manitoba

.. LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, March 6, 1979 Time: 2:30 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. Harry E. Graham (Birtle-Russell): Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions ... Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees. MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services . HON. SIDNEY SPIVAK (River Heights): Mr.

Speaker, I would like to lay on the table of the House the report of the Manitoba Department of Public Works for the year 1977-78 , and the Annual Report of the Land Value Appraisal Commission for the same period. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education . HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Mr. Speaker, I wish to table the Annual Report of the Department of Education for the period ending December 31st , 1978, and the Annual Report of the University Grants Commission for the year ending March 31st, 1978. It is my understanding , Mr.

Speaker, that copies of the University Grants Commission Report were mailed to all honourable members • last August. .. • MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills. MOTION OF CONDOLENCE MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . HON. STERLING R. LYON, Premier (Charleswood): Mr. Speaker, this is the occasion when we have to pay sad remembrance to one of our colleagues who has died since the House last met . I refer, of course , to the late Member for Carillon, Leonard A. Barkman , who passed away in the intervening period between sessions .

I was one of those fortunate enough to sit in the House with Mr. Barkman while he was a member of the Legislature for his constituency . He served as well, at the same time , and for a long period of time, as the Mayor of Steinbach , and had previously served on the council of that community for a number of years prior to becoming Mayor . He was a man who knew really no limits to the amount of service that he was prepared to give and devote as an individual to his community and to the people with whom he worked all of his lifetime .

He demonstrated, as one of the editorialists wrote at the time of his death , the fact that a man could operate a successful business and, at the same time, be fully occup ied, as indeed he was, with a variety of different community and regional interests where he gave unstintingly of his time and of his energy and of his dedication to his country . Mr. Barkman, members will recall who were here with him at the time , was a man whom I would say was best remembered for his quiet deportment .

I know not of anyone who found at any time that Leonard was the kind of a man who was scrappy, or one who wanted to get into some of the more sparky debates of the Legislature, but rather in his quiet way he spoke out on behalf of his constituency. He was not what you would call a strong Party person in that sense, he was a Liberal Member of the Legislature for all of the years that he served here, but I think he would be better remembered and perhaps would prefer to be remembered by the fact that he served all of his constituents, regardless of what their particular political background was.

He thoroughly enjoyed his work , as one of the editorialists have pointed out. He loved people, he loved working with people, and although he was taken from us at a relatively early age, he left a very large mark on his community . 523

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 He is survived by his wife, Agnes, by three daughters and two sons-in-law, and I'm sure that all Members of the House would wish to join at this time in paying tribute to one of our number, who is no longer with us; one who has left his mark on the political and public life of this province; and one who will be fondly remembered, not only by his constituents, but by many in this Legislature who were privileged to sit with him. I therefore move, Sir, seconded by the Honourable the Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport, that this House convey to the family of the late Leonard A.

Barkman , who served as a member of the Legislative Assembly of Manitoba, its sincere sympathy in their bereavement, and its appreciation of his devotion to duty and a useful life of act ive community and public service, and that Mr. Speaker be requested to forward a copy of this Resolution to the family. MOTION presented. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Fitness and Amateur Sport. HON. ROBERT (Bob) BANMAN (La Verendyre): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is with a deep sense of sorrow and regret that I second the condolence mot ion that has been presented to the House here today. Mr. Barkman , and I call him Mr.

Barkman because that's what he was known to me as, through the many years that I knew him, growing up in the town of Steinbach. He was known by almost everybody in south-eastern Manitoba. He was a very successful businessman in the town of Steinbach and surrounding area, he was an outstanding politician, he aas a farmer at heart, and he was a terrific auctioneer .

He was elected to Steinbach town council in 1952 and served there as a councilman until 1958, and I am informed by the political observers of that day, following the local town politics, that he played a relatively important role at that time smoothing the waters between some of the council members who had a tendency to get tangled up in some pretty heated discussions, and at that time already he was known for his talents of being able to smooth waters and making things run a little more smoothly .

In 1958 to 1970 he was the Mayor of the town of Steinbach - the town of Steinbach's second Mayor - and in 1970 he did not let his name stand for re-election . He served as both the MLA for Carillon and the Mayor for Steinbach for some eight years between the years of 1962 and 1970. He was the first man of Mennonite descent to represent a constituency in the south-eastern part of the province, and he ran in the new constituency of La Verendrye when it was formed in 1969. His community spirit is evidenced by many things that he did .

He was one of the founding members of the very active Kinsmen Club in the south-east, the Steinbach Kinsmen Club. He was made a life honorary member for his contributions and services to that club. While mayor of the town of Steinbach , he saw many of the changes and helped create many of the changes that that small community at that time was going through . One of the major things that happened in the early part of his political career was his strong support for the sewer and water projects in Steinbach.

The members who are familiar with the problems that the small communities were going through at that time , it was a fairly heated debate at that time as far as the referendum was concerned, but he took a very active role in promoting it, and saw it passed and come into fruition. He had a lot of foresight in dealing with public works in the particular town , and we have seen many of the benefits of that in the town , to the point where it's one of the neatest, and I would say, I guess, prettiest towns in Manitoba .

His close association with agriculture also helped him represent his constituency in the Legislature and in his time he saw the farming areas in this rural area of south-eastern Manitoba expand at a very rapid rate. His other capabilities, such as auctioneering, is one that I think people in the south-east would readily agree with me that he was one of the best auctioneers we've seen in south-eastern Manitoba. 1 remember serving on a committee with several automobile dealers out in Steinbach of which he was one, and planning a giant car auction one year.

This is quite a number of years ago, and we decided to hire an outside auctioneer, some hot-shot from down east, and we held the auction sale and after that we realized that we had somebody that could do a much better job locally, and from that time on, he would hand le the auction sales, because , Mr. Speaker, he knew the people, he knew almost all the people in the constituency or in ! southeastern Manitoba by name and recognized them by face and could relate to them very well.

The only thing I'm told by people who were campaigning with him, and that were close to him, the only thing that bothered him during election campaigns and on numerous visits when he went to the farms were the problems that the farm dogs would not particularly like his presence , but those are the only problems that he had when he was going from constituency to constituency , 524 .. ·-

• .. • Tuesday, March 6, 1979 and farm to farm, and I think many of us as politicians have had certa in similar experiences through our political career. 1 would also like to say that the gentleman in question was one who did not like red tape . I know from another personal experience of mine that building a fourplex with a friend of mine, just before 1 got married; we ran into some zoning prob lems in the town . We went to see Mr. Barkman, and within a matter of day, he had it all squared away to everyb ody's satisfaction, and I think it was sort of an example of the type of person that he was.

He was availab le tor people to go and see him and he would do his utmos t t o try and straighten matters out to an amiable solution for everyone . The families, 1 believe , Mr. Speaker , of the people who serve the public life, know the many real problems and pressures that face elected off icials, and I would today ask all citizens to remember the dedication, service and sacrifice that Leonard Barkman made for his community and province. To his wife Agnes, his sons and daughters , we extend our deepest sympathy to their great loss . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member tor Emerson . MR. ALBERT DRIEDGER: Mr.

Speaker , I would also like to associate with the motion of condolences . During my years as Municipal Reeve with the RM of Hanover, I had many occasions to work with him, and get endless advice as to my responsibilities . I had a lot of respect for him and deeply feel the loss of his passing . MR. SPEAKER: The Deputy Leader of the Opposition . MR. SAUL CHERNIACK (St. Johns): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Our group wishes to associate itself with the express ions of regre t that have already been voiced.

I think it is a fine tradition in this House to recognize the passing of a former member of the House, as a tribute to the fact that we all know that there is sacrifice involved in being a representative of a constituency , and that there is a sincerity involved which is quickly recognized when one finds his place here.

So that the tradition as such , i s o ne which is very much worthwh ile. 1 have had occasio n to sit i n this House during this mot ion and the wording is always the same, and to hear many of the speakers , and there a ren't that many that do speak on this occasion, but a large number of them would say, "I did not have the privilege of knowing this particular person." And one would , in look ing at the obituary, realize that he had given of himself and service to the Province of Manitoba , and lived a long and fru itful life after that, and died at an age where it is more or less expected that one would, out of old age, leave us.

It is a sadder occasion when most of us are able to say that we knew the deceased and knew him well, because it is a recognition as in this case, that his death was premature, and that he was denied the opportunity to continue to serve in whatever role he wished to serve tor more years than he was able to do. And that is the case tor Len Barkman . I think very many of us knew him, worked with him, and were able to assess his contribution . I came into the Legislature with him; we were both freshmen together , and again there are a few of us that were in that group .

I too, shared with him a background in municipal politics when we came in and one, I think, quickly recognizes a person who has some experience and knowledge at the municipal level, and then comes here and adjusts to a different type of forum. Len Barkman proved quickly that he knew very well the background, that he knew very well the municipal problems that people have in Manitoba especially in the smaller centres in Manitoba and that he knew how to cope with those problems at the level at which he worked .

Mention has been made of the family that he left and we certainly wish to express our sincere sympathy with them. But our role here is more to express the sympathy of the people of Manitoba and the appreciation of the people of Manitoba tor the services he gave and tor his dedication.

The Leader of the Opposition had expected to be here today and to participate and associate himself with this motion and he had a note which is passed on to me to the effect that as Minister of Municipal Affairs tor some time and having had occasion to sit in the House with Len Barkman who was the Liberal critic on municipal affairs, that he found him an extremely capable critic who demonstrated a profound and intense interest in municipal affairs. And that is of course, true. Mr.

Speaker , beyond and above that specialized field, he showed a great interest and concern on behalf of people and a warmth in his association with people and a friendship which was quickly recogn ized. Again I had the opportunity to meet with him on occasions other than in the House itself and found him a very warm human being , a person who did care about others and who had good words to say for all. And therefore it is with a sense of personal loss of a friend, and more so on behalf of our group a sense of loss of a citizen who contributed substantially to the community 525

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 of Manitoba that we again express our regrets on his early passing . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. LLOYD AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to rise to associate myself and the Liberal Party with the motion of condolence that has been presented to the House, on behalf and to the family of Leonard Barkman .

While I didn't serve with Len Barkman because he left at the same time I came in, I did know him quite well because he had been very active as a member for the Liberal Party for many years both as a student and as a person involved in the party , we had many occasions to meet with him. One always remembers certain qualities about people who you associate with in polit ical life and there are always certain special characteristics that people bring to political activity. The ones I recall perhaps most vividly , the ones about Leonard Barkman , he had a very deep rooted sense of community .

He was obviously very much part of the town and the municipality in which he lived . He understood it remarkably well, a certain sense of virtues of that town and that community , both in a religious sense and in a family sense are ones which he felt very strongly about and expressed on many occasions . He also brought to political life really a belief in the wisdom of trying to find just good solutions at times. He was not a particularly partisan man. I don 't think that he was what you would call a party fighter in the sense that he believed that the party was right over and above everything else.

He was a man who believed that there was a way of coming together and making agreements and working together in the area of finding mutual accommodations . And that was a quality which I think is particularly important for any political party to have, is to have people in it who are able to bring some sense of balance and some sense of tolerance. I have my own personal appreciation for him, because after I was elected , and he used to spend a great deal of time with us.

We were a small caucus, as most of us would know , at the time , and he spent a great deal of time with us and helped me, certainly , in giving advice on the rules of the House and things that went on and people and ideas , it was certainly very much appreciated; so on behalf of the Liberals in this province, who owe a great debt of gratitude and appreciation to Len Barkman , I would warmly endorse and support this motion . QUESTION put, MOTION carried. ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER: The Deputy Leader of the Opposition. MR. CHERNIACK: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I'd like to address a question to the First Minister to see if he can at this time allay the concerns expressed to me that the government is contemplating a further increase in entry fees to provincial recreational areas in this coming season. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. .. MR. LYON: Well, Mr. Speaker , the suggestion made by the Honourable Member , to the best of ~ my knowledge , is the first I've heard , but as the session progresses, undoubtedly that information will be available . 1 can 't allay his fears or even confirm his suspicions at this stage . MR.

CHERNIACK: Well, then , I assume that the First Minister has made it clear he can not assure us that the fees will not be increased , but he has no reason to believe that they / . Is will be that a fair resume of what he hes just told us? MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for St. George. MR. BILLIE URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . In absence of the Minister of Finance , I'd like to direct a question to the First Minister . Can the First Minister confirm that his government has discontinued the Manitoba tax filing assistance program for pensioners in rural Manitoba? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister . MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker , I'd have to take that question as notice . 526 ·-

• Tuesday, March 6, 1979 MR. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that there are seven weeks before the deadline for filing Income Tax , will the First Minister instruct his Minister of Finance to reconsider providing this much-needed service to rural pensioners? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker, again , I'll have to take my honourable friend's suggestion as notice. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for St. George with a final supplementary. MR. URUSKI: Yes, Mr. Speaker .

While he is taking those questions as notice, could he also take as notice whether the Department of Finance has estimated how much money the government can save by not providing the service to pensioners so that these pensioners can claim the tax credits that are rightfully theirs. • MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for St. Boniface. • • MR. LAURENT L. DESJARDINS: My question is to the Minister of Health. I wonder if the Minister could give us a list broken down by division of the staff man years in his department, that is, the permanent, terms, contract, part-time and vacancies.

I requested that last year but we got it only during the Estimates and I think we really scrutinized the department last year. I don't think there is any need to go that far and it would help if we can get the list but have it now and not during the Estimates . I wonder if the Minister can endeavour to get us that. That would be for 1978-79, the list that he gave us last year, up to date in 1978, and what he's asking for in 1979-80 and what is the actual staff right now. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. R. (Bud) SHERMAN (Fort Garry): Well, Mr.

Speaker, do I understand my honourable friend correctly in that he is asking for this rather than dealing with it during the Estimates process? MR. DESJARDINS: No, Mr. Speaker , but I think the Minister must remember that last year I had asked I think two months before we got to the Estimates and it was promised repeatedly, but we finally received it the day we were discussing that. I would like to look at it and prepare for the Estimates . I would like to have it before we start the Estimates to be able to deal with it during the Estimates. MR. SHERMAN: Yes, that's fine , Mr. Speaker . MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHV: Mr. Speaker , I have a question for the First Minister. Can the First Minister indicate whether he has received a brief on behalf of the Manitoba Association of Architects which indicates that unless substantial changes are made in present provincial programs that 20 percent of the architects in this province will have been laid off or will have left the province, and that there will be absolutely no employment whatsoever for almost the entire graduating class of the University of Manitoba Architectural Faculty? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR. L VON: Mr. Speaker, I'll be happy to check my correspondence to see if anything of that nature has come in. MR. AXWORTHV: Well, Mr. Speaker, beyond checking his correspondence, will the First Minister undertake to meet with the representatives of the Manitoba Association of Architects to determine what the state of their profession is and whether in fact this will indicate a substantial loss and drop in one of the more creative professions and useful professions in this province in terms of generating work and activity in the City of Winnipeg. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. RUSSELL DOERN: Mr. Speaker , I want to direct a question to the Minister of Economic Development. Does the Minister intend to take any action concerning the imminent takeover of The 527

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 Bay by the Thompson interests which could result in the loss of The Bay's Winnipeg head office to Eastern Canada? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Ministe r of Economic Development. HON. J. FRANK JOHNSTON (Sturgeon Creek): No, Mr. Speaker. MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker , I would ask the Minister whether he is not concerned about the possible loss of another head office from Manitoba in relation to jobs or the psychological effect . MR. JOHNSTON: Yes, Mr. Speaker . MR. DOERN: Well, Mr.

Speaker , I would then ask the Minister , since his views are contrad ictory, it's difficult to ascertain what he's doing . A MEMBER: His next answer will be a maybe. MR. DOERN: I ask him whether or not he concurs with the view that the takeover , in terms of such a giant merger , would neither be in the national interest or in the provincial interest , or does his belief in the free enterprise system override such concerns . MR. JOHNSTON: Mr. Speaker , it would be time for a maybe. Mr.

Speake r, when the member starts to speak of the national interests , etc., I don 't think that the Province of Manitoba , the government of Manitoba , is going to become involved in whether there 's a compan y wanting to buy the shares of another company or not. There is no indication that the head office would leave Manitoba for that matter of fact , we don 't know that. As a matter of fact , the Hudson Bay office came to Manitoba and there 's no indication that it will leave. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood with a fourth quest ion. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker , I would ask the Minister if he is aware of the fact that in the last several years there has been a steady erosion of staff losses . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please , order please . Order please . The honourable member 's question is out of order . Would he care to rephrase it? MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker , I would ask the Minister then whether he is concerned abou t the fact that at present there are some 200 employees in the head office . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please , order please .

May I suggest to the honourable member that the whole purpose of the Question Period is to elicit information , not to give it. The Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker , I'll try again . I'm asking the Min ister whethe r he intends to do anyt hing because of the fact that there has been a steady erosion of staff from the Winnipeg head office to the Toronto office and that if this merger goes through , it could result in an acceleration of that erosion or in the removal of the remaining head offices of that company . MR. SPEAKER: Order please.

May I suggest to the honourable member that dealing in probab ility makes a question out of order . Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Transcona . MR. WILSON PARASIUK: My question is to the Honourable Attorney -General. In the light of a complaint made last year to the Human Rights Commission by a constituent of mine from Transcona , could the Minister tell us what the position of the Manitoba Government is regarding employers forcing employees , or prospective employees, to undergo lie detector tests? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. HON. GERALD W.J. MERCIER (Osborne): Mr.

Speaker , that matter is in the process of being reviewed and a decision should be made very shortly on it. 528 .,

.. Tuesday, March 6, 1979 MR. PARASIUK: A supplementary , Mr. Speaker . Since the press report of March 3, 1979, quotes a Human Rights Commission spokesman as saying that the Human Rights Commission will not look into this matter because it is not a matter of discrimination, would the Minister indicate whether another branch of his department is looking into this matter and whether in fact we can expect legislation to be introduced during this session to deal with this abuse of human rights? MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, myself as well as the Minister of Consumer and Corporate Affairs, have been reviewing this matter. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Transcona with a final supplementary. MR. PARASIUK: Yes, Mr. Speaker. I would like to ask the Minister if he would also look into what is being done with respect to the information that has already been gathered through lie detector tests. Who has it, how is it being stored , or is it being released to credit rating agencies, or what? I would like the Minister to look into that matter as well when he's looking into the larger matter of lie detector tests. MR.

SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Burrows. MR. BEN HANUSCHAK: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have a question in relation to the Education in Manitoba Annual Report of the Minister of Education published by authority of Legislative Assembly, to which I have no recollection of ever having given authority. My question is, there appears a photograph bearing a very strong resemblance to a Minister of the Crown but the caption beneath the photograph reads as the Honourable F.L. Jobin, Lieutenant-Governor of Manitoba. I would like to remind you, Mr.

Speaker , the Lieutenant-Governor is not entitled to sit in this House. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Point Douglas. MR. DONALD MALINOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . I would like to direct my question to the Honourable Minister of Health and Social Development. In the light of the statement by his Deputy Minister on January 10th, 1979, in the Tribune, and I quote : "Approximately 1,770 senior citizens in the Province of Manitoba no longer receive free drugs." Can the Honourable Minister advise the House if he or his department will review these cases? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, those cases have all been reviewed. Those are a number of cases that were in that package of holders of social allowances health services cards, and they were reviewed , and they are continually reviewed. MR. MALINOWSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Can the Minister inform the House if he or his department will issue a new card to the senior citizens who are in great need? MR. SHERMAN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, but the matter of need is determined on the same basis as was identified at the time that the cards were reviewed.

I would also point out that Pharmacare is available to all Manitobans. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Inkster . MR. SIDNEY GREEN: Mr. Speaker, I would like to direct a question to the First Minister. Can he tell us, Mr. Speaker , with regard to three reports tabled yesterday, namely the Brandon University • Report, the University of Manitoba Report, the Brandon University Pension Fund; all of which were audited by the Provincial Auditor, W.K. Ziprick, whether he feels that there is any deficiency or lack of accountability with regard to these three reports? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. MR.

LYON: Mr. Speaker, I haven't had an opportunity to look at the reports in question. 1 am sure that if they were audited by the Provincial Auditor, they were done with his customary care, and I am sure that future reports done by the Provincial Auditor, under the supervision of the Provincial Auditor , with the assistance of outside audit firms , will be done equally with good care and so on, as is the traditional practice in most other provinces of Canada, a practice which was 529

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 abandoned by my honourable friends opposite for reasons that I yet don't know. MR. GREEN: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I have a supplementary question . I repeat to the First Minister, who said that he hasn't had an opportunity of examining the reports; is he intending to reserve his opinion as to the accountability as expressed in these reports pending his examination? MR. LYON: Mr. Speaker , my honourable friend is obviously being facetious . The answer to his question is no. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr.

Speaker, I wasn't being facetious , and if the answer is no, then I wonder why the First Minister threw that in in answer to the previous question. Mr. Speaker, I would like to pose a different question to the Honourable , the Attorney-General. Mr.

Speaker , with regard to ads placed at my expense and at the expense of every member of this Assembly , and the expense of all of the citizens of the Province of Manitoba , by the federal government , with regard to its nauseous Child Credit Program , based on a needs test; has the Attorney-General examined these television ads from the point of view of determining whether they offend against the law of obscenity? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr.

Speaker, I hadn 't yet considered it, but as much as the Member for Inkster has raised it, perhaps it should be given some serious consideration . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services . MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker , some time ago, the Honourable Member for Rupertsland asked questions relating to the architectural and engineering consultants for Norway House School. Mr.

Speaker, the Department of Government Services has forwarded to the Department of Education with a recommendation of Treasury Board , the appointment of GBR Associates as architects, engineers , and mechanical consultants , for the proposed new school in Norway House, with the firm of Penner , Lach, Keeler and Partners to be responsible for structural design, and L.P. Williams and Associates to be responsible for electrical designs . Mr.

Speaker , the department has forwarded as well, with the recommendation of Treasury Board , the appointment of Pratt , Lindgren, Snider, Tomcej, as architectural consultants for the renovation of the existing school at Norway House, and for the supervision of the external water and sewer services in conjunction with both the renovations and the new schools , to be handled by W.L. WVardrop and Associates . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker , to the Honourable Minister .

I appreciate his information , but could the Minister explain why the community recommendation for the appointment of architects was ignored, and this name of GBR Associates was substituted for the group that was selected by the community and recommended by the Minister . MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is aware that the community interviewed six of seventeen architectural firms that had applied to them in connection with this project.

In turn , the Department of Government Services examined the work that had been completed in the last period of time by the architectural firms , and made recommendations to the Minister of four firms, none of whom were included in the list of the firms recomm ended by the community . It should be noted , Mr. Speaker, that of the first three firms recommended by the community , that the firms had received in aggregate approximately $1.4 million by way of architectural engineering fees for work that is not yet under construction . MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister . Can the .

Minister explain what the connection is between this particula r firm, GBR Associates and the Progressive Conservat ive Party of Manitoba? MR. SPEAKER: Order please , order please. May I suggest to the honourable member that he read Beauchesne with respect to the Question Period . Questions should not be ironical, satirical , or contain innuendo . Would the Honourable Member for Ruperts land care to rephrase his question? 530

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Education. Can the Minister of Education explain to the House why he has not honoured his commitment to the Community of Norway House, that the locally elected officials would have a say in the appointment of an architect for the new school in Norway House. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education. HON. KEITH A. COSENS (Gimli): Mr.

Speaker, I thought I answered this yesterday, but my understanding of the situation was that the school committee of Norway House had been approached by several architects, as soon as there was some mention that a school was going to be built in that area. The official trustee asked if it would be possible for these groups to meet with architects , and he carried forward with that particular action .

They did meet with a number of architectural groups, but at no time was there any doubt as to who would make the decision as to what architects would be appointed for this particular school construction. ltwwas the Department of Public Works at that time; now the Department of Government Services. MR. BOSTROM: Mr. Speaker, my question is to the Minister of Government Services. Can the Minister explain why the particular firm was chosen over those that were recommended by the Community of Norway House?

Was there a question of professional competence involved, or was some other criteria used in the selection of this firm? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. MR. SPIVAK: Mr. Speaker , I believe I answered the question, but there is no question of professional competence. It was simply an attempt to try and deal fairly with the architectural firms, recognizing the work , Mr. Speaker, that had already been completed, and paid out by the government , and recognizing the capacity that was required to complete the job . As it happens, Mr.

Speaker, there were four firms recommended by the internal document within the Department of Government Services; two of the firms that are now proposed to work on the job made up two of those recommendations . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Kildonan. MR. PETER FOX (Kildonan): Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

My question is directed to the Minister of Labour. n view of the fact that the government now is in the process of completing the second round of negotiations with the Civil Service, and also a second round of negotiations in respect to the fees for the doctors, can he inform the House when he will take pity on the people on minimum wage and allow them to have an increase too. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. KEN MacMASTER (Thompson): Mr. Speaker, it's being reviewed.

I was faced with a little more difficulty than the previous administration was where they had solid recommendations and refused to act upon them. MR. FOX: Mr. Speaker, in view of the fact that there was a raise imminent for 1978 of January , does not the Minister think it's time that he really got off his butt and did something now? MR. MacMASTER: Mr. Speaker, the same member was sitting on his butt over here when unanimous recommendations came through for a recommendation for an increase - unanimous, Mr. Speaker, and him and his particular government at that time chose not to act on it. MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Attorney-General. MR. MERCIER: Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Minister of Government Services took as Notice a question from the Member for St. Johns , as to whether or not the decision of The Liquor Commission Board to put South African products on the shelves of the Liquor Commission was done with the concurrence of a Member of the Treasury Bench. It was not done with the concurrence of a Member of the Treasury Bench, but it was done with my concurrence, Mr. Speaker.

In fact the previous policy of The Liquor Control Commission and the Minister responsible at that time has been referred to by some as a hypocritical position. It was the only province in Canada that maintained the product 531

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 in the back rooms and did provide it on request to the public. The decision has been made now to place it back on the shelves with Russian vodka, Cuban rum, Chilean wines and the customer will make the decision as to whether or not he wants to purchase it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker , on the Norway House School , again it's not clear what the Minister of Education is saying, and I want to ask him this, "Did he give verbal perm ission or written permission to representatives of that School Division to make a recommendation to him concerning the appointment of architects and/or engineers? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Education . MR. COSENS: I would have to check back on that matter , Mr. Speaker .

My understanding at this point was that they had been approached by architects , and their request was if they could discuss with architects who were interested in this particular school, some of the concerns that they had , some of the requirements that they wished to see inculcated in any plans for the school. MR. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker , I would then ask a supplementary to the Minister of Government Services, and ask him whether it is not the case that the six firms interviewed and selected by the School Division, many of them had done previous work for the division which was satisfactory to the division and that was one of the reasons that they were included on the list. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker , I tried to indicate to the Honourable Members Opposite that the attempt has been made to try and deal fairly with the architectural firms , recognizing the work that has ..,.. been completed by some and the work load that will be forthcoming in the next period of time . • We have already had some questions asked by the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge, and it wasn't based on the work load that was completed in the past or their capac ity, i t was based on the recognition that of the first four firms , there was almost - I only ment ioned three earlier , but of the first four firms - there was almost $2 million worth of architectural fees and engineering fees that were paid out for three projects that were not being constructed at this time , and for one project that was being completed .

And the attempt was to try and find firms that had not received similar work and to provide the opportunity for them , provided they had the capacity to do it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood with a final supplementary . MR. DOERN: I would ask the Minister whether it is not standard practice to pay fees for wor k done , and that the import of his statement simply amounts to the fact that his government has frozen all construction , therefore fees must be paid even though the construction doesn 't take place? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services . MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, the architect that was selected by the committee as number one had already received some $350,000 for a project that I do not believe the former government ever intended to build . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Churchill. Order please, order please . Now that everybody has asked their questions all at the same time , I recognize the Honourable Member for Churchill. MR. JAY COWAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker . My question is to the Minister of Labour. Can the Minister inform the House as to the status of the Construction Industry Review Committee that has been initiated by his Department? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR. MacMASTER: They're working , Mr. Speaker . 532

• Tuesday, March 6, 1979 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Rupertsland . MR. BOSTROM: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. For purposes of clarification and to clear the air on this issue, Mr. Speaker, with respect to the Norway House School, is it correct or is it not correct that a principal of the firm of GBR Associates was election day organizer for the Progressive Conservative Party in the Honourable Member's constituency? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, for the edification of the Honourable Member for Rupertsland, the nine firms that were before the Minister of Government Services for his consideration, of the nine firms there has been an association in one way or the other and a relationship with seven. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health and Social Services -(Interjection)- soon, soon, I'll write you a note . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. Thank you. Now, the Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker .

I would like to ask the Minister of Health and Community Services a question . Last week, in raising the matter with him about the substantial reduction in the work activity projects in the province , he was quoted as saying that the reason for the reduction in expenditure was because the projects weren't working and they only had a 20 percent success rate .

Could he reconcile that statement that he made outside the House about the 20 percent success rate with the official report of the Department of Health and Community Services which says that of the 520 placements last year in the work activity programs, 224 were placed in employment or in training programs at community colleges , which is close to a 50 percent success rate? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker , I don 't think I referred to a 20 percent success rate. I think I said 28 percent.

The percentage performance on the total going through the work activity projects in any given year , in terms of those who wind up gainfully employed , or pursuing further training, employment traininq , has worked out to 28 percent . Now, there may be some specific differences or aberrations in that statistic relative to the persons, the group that the honourable member is referring to and Red River Community College, but overall , the performance did not justify the per person expenditure on the employment programs. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: Well, Mr.

Speaker , I think we will probably have opportunity to debate that issue later on, but I am more concerned about the issuance of incorrect information on the part of the minister, and the fact that it does 't correspond to the statements made in his own departmental report concerning this information. I'd also like to ask him why it is that in the Estimates Book, where they relate to the financial expenditures, in his departmental report, they indicate a financial revenue $270,000 .00. MR. SPEAKER: Order, order, order please.

May I suggest to the honourable member that his question may more properly fall under the Estimates of the minister and better be discussed then . MR. AXWORTHY: Mr. Speaker , I am not raising a question of substance, I'm raising a question of misinformation. I would like to know why it is that the departmental report indicates revenues of $270,000, which was not reported anywhere in the Estimates Book . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr. Speaker , I do not accept that it's not recorded anywhere in the Estimates Book .

That may well be recorded under funds recoverable from Canada either in the departmental estimates specifically, or in the general estimates and recoveries from Canada as they relate to the Consolidated Fund and the Minister of Finance , but in terms of discrepancies, or the mathmetical 533

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 discrepancies, that the honourable member refers to, I'll take them as notice, and check the Annual Report against the statistics on which we made the decision to re-evaluate and scale down the programs . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Fort Rouge. MR. AXWORTHY: As a final supplementary, Mr.

Speaker , to the minister , considering that the work activity programs are funded on a 50-50 percentage basis with the federal government , was there any discussion with federal authorities, and did they agree to this particular reduction , or was it unilateral initiative on the part of the provincial authorities in his department. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health . MR. SHERMAN: Not that I am aware of, Mr.

Speaker, and it's correct that those projects are cost-shared with the federal government , but the budget organization process is such that that expenditure, of course, in total is ascribed to the Department of Health and Community Services , and so, any reductions that we made are reductions that appear in terms of the Health and Community Services budget , rather than the overall provincial budget , but I don 't think that there are any specific conversations with federal authorities. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wellington . MR. BRIAN CORRIN: Yes, my question, Mr.

Speaker , is for the Minister of Health and Social Services . Could the minister advise what guidelines have been established by his department to ensure community safety when juvenile offenders are prematurely released from detention at the Agassiz Juvenile Centre, because of the overcrowding cited in his department's annual report? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Correctional Services. MR. SHERMAN: Well, Mr.

Speaker , as the honourable member well knows , releases of that kind are accommodated under the Juvenile Probation Service , and probation officers are in charge of those individuals who are released in those circumstances . I am not sure that I agree with the honourable member 's suggestion that there is overcrowding at the present time in either of those juvenile institutions . MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. LEONARD S. EVANS: Thank you, Mr.

Speaker , I'd like to address a question to the Minister of Labour, and ask the minister if he can conf irm that the Brandon office of the Workers ' Compensation Board has been closed , making it more difficult for applicants in that area of south-western Manitoba, and can he give the reason for the closure of the off ice? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. .. .. , MR.

MacMASTER: The only assurance I can give the Member for Brandon East, is that it hasn't ~ been closed on my direction, but I'll check it out , and find out when it was closed , why it was closed, how long it was closed, and what the story on it is. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Brandon East. MR. EVANS: Well, a supplementary then , Mr. Speaker , I thank the minister for his answer. In looking into it, would he also ascertain whether it's possible to reopen that office? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour . MR. MacMASTER: First things first , Mr.

Speaker , I'll have to deter mine why, in fact , i t was ever closed in the first place, if in fact it is closed . MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood . MR. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the Minister of Government Services , and ask him whether he can confirm that the firm of Green , Blankstein , Russel received several 534

• Tuesday, March 6, 1979 hundred thousand dollars worth of work in terms of architectural fees from our administration, and were in the top three or four firms in that period of time. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services. MR. SPIVAK: I'm really not in a position to confirm that . I'm aware of the fact that they did work in the last eight years, yes. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR.

DOERN: And I would ask the minister whether or not the fact that his government himself has had a longstanding association with firm of GBR dating back to the days of the Honourable Maitland Steinkopf, and when the member was the campaign manager for that minister, and I would ask him whether that was not a factor in the selection of another architectural firm overruling the recommendation of local representatives, whether that was a factor in that decision? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Government Services . MR. SPIVAK: Mr.

Speaker, let the record show that while the community was given the opportunity to review the architects , the decision was that of the Treasury Branch, and of the government of the day. That was very clear and, Mr. Speaker, the decision was based on the factors that I've indicated to this House already . The honourable member can try and impute motives , and that is his opportunity, that is his will, but, Mr.

Speaker , I would not impute motives, nor would I suggest that the architects suggested by No. 1, by the community, were in fact selected in the past for $500,000 worth of work, simply because they were one of the main fund raisers for the New Democrat ic Party. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Wellington . MR. CORRIN: My quest ion, Mr. Speaker , i s for Honourable Member . MR. SPEAKER: Orde r please . The Honourable Membe r for Wellington . MR. CORRIN: My question , Mr. Speaker, is for the Honourable Minister of Health and Community Services .

I would ask the minister whether he could confirm that in the report of his department issued yesterday, I believe , under his name and signature, at page 102 thereof, there is in fact a finding that there is an over-populatio n problem at the Agassiz Centre for Youth and did he not suggest that these over-population problems , and I'm quot ing from the report tabled, Mr.

Speaker, " . . . were overcome during the past year by shortening the average length of stay for juveniles based on criteria developed to ensure the safety of the community ." I asked that, because he suggested that he wasn't sure that was the case, and I draw his attention to his own report in that respect. MR. SPEAKER: Orders of the Day. The Honourable Minister of Health . MR. SHERMAN: Mr. Speaker, I am aware of that, I do confirm that as something that existed in the past and it was met by a particular procedure that is outl ined in the report.

My reference was to the implication or the inference I drew from the honourable member 's question that there was overcrowding at Agassiz and/or Seven Oaks right now. MR. SPEAKER: Order please . The hour for Question Period having expired , we'll proceed with o:; the Orders of the Day. The Honourable Government House Leader. MR. JORGENSON: Mr. Speaker, I move , seconded by the Minister of Highways that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty .

MOTION presented and carried and the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply with • the Honourable Member for Radisson in the Chair for the Department of Mines' Natural Resources and Environment and the Honourable Member for Emerson in the Chair for the Department of Highways and Transportation. 535

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 CONCURRENT COMMITTEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - HIGHWAYS AND TRANSPORTATION MR. CHAIRMAN, Mr. Albert Driedger (Emerson): Committee come to order, please. Dealing with the Highways and Transportation Estimates, Resolution No. 17, Planning and Design $1,273,800 .00. (3)(

a) Salaries - $997,300 .00 - The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. A. R. (Pete) ADAM: Thank you, Mr. Chairman . I want to ask the Minister , yesterday he undertook to provide us with the breakdown of the employees , staff man years, as opposed to last year and this year. I would like to know if that information is available to us now. MR. CHAIAN: The Honourable Minist er. HON. HARRY J. ENNS (Lakeside): Mr. Chairman , perhaps it would be as well to begin this afternoon by keeping several commitments that I made to members of the committee last night.

I have, to begin with , the question was asked , some interest was shown by the members of the committee as to a map of the original Highway Strengthening Program and the weights that are permitted thereon . I have nine such maps available which indicate in the legend the gross vehicular weight permitted on these stretches of highway . They also indicate, the ones that are outlined in the yellow, are the ones that were part of the original designated routes that were listed under the agreement that we signed with Ottawa back in 1973 for the Highway Strengthening Program .

I'll ask the Clerk to distribute these maps , perhaps several to the Opposition and several to our members and they may be of interest to the members of the committee. The question just asked by the Honourable Member for Ste. Rose having to do with the staffing , I thank Mr. Dyck , Administration Officer , who obviously worked late last night , or this morning, to provide that information as well. I would ask the Clerk to distribute these figures as well.

In addition, I was also asked earlier on in the evening , for an organizational chart of the department , particularly with interest about the new additions to the department . I would ask my assistant to distribute the organizational charts . I was asked as well by the committee last night to indicate to you the kind of Supplementary Supply or Special Warrants that were raised by the department in the course of the last year. That information is also available to you. There was a Supp lementary Supply required for an amount of $2,696,300 .00.

Now, that was brought about, as I indicated yesterday, because of the inability to transfer out of certain appropr iations over-expenditures , and had to be covered by Supplementary Supply. However , I hasten to point out that there was, in other sections of the department's Estimates , a surplus , an unspent amount of money of $3,025,300 .00. So, in effect, the departmental spending for the year was with in, and somewhat below , the overall approved figure .

The actual amount we anticipate , and I think when we understand that we use the word anticipate because we are just closing off the books as of this month, but our anticipated surplus or under-expenditure, if you like, for the total year, will be some $329,000.00. So, the question raised yesterday was, did we have any Supplementary Supply or Special Warrant ; yes, we had a $2,600,000 Supplementary Supply, but that internally is offset with a $3 million , roughly , surplus amounting in netting it out , a surplus position of the department of some $329,000 .00. 1 think , Mr.

Chairman , that that pretty well covers the commitments that I made to the committee in terms of additional information that I would supply, with the possible except ion of the commitment that 1 made to the Honourable Member for St. Johns about an Order for Return . I have every reason to believe that 1 will be able to keep that commitment in the time frame that I mentioned . The department has the information prepared , it has been prepared for some time . It just hasn't been processed in conjunction with all other departments . It was to be returned in that way to the House. Thank you. MR. ADAM: Thank you, Mr.

Chairman . I thank the Minister for providing us with the information that we requested yesterday and 1 also commend the department for being able to come up with the actual number of employees on the payroll as of January, 1978, and as of January , 1979. This was probably a tremendous effort on the part of the department. I'm just wondering why we haven't been able to get those figures for the Orders for Return that we filed last year. They're very similar except that the date was in October instead of January.

These figures, if 1 may question the figures that are before us now, that is people who are also laid off, the numbers that are laid off in the fall after the programs are finished, would that be the difference between 2,753 and 18? Is there layoffs in the fall there that makes that difference? 536

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 MR.CHAIRMAN:To the Member for Ste. Rose, would it be advisable to maybe continue the discussion under the Minister's Salary at a later date, in view of the information you have there, and proceed with the

(3) Planning and Design area now? MR. ADAM: Well, Mr. Chairman, we would have discussed this under Administration if we had had this information before us. It wasn't available to us and .. . MR. CHAIRMAN: Well, if I may to the Member for Ste. Rose, I think then actually what we have passed in a sense is meaningless . I'm wondering if we could maybe continue in this area and that gives all the opportunity to review the matter under the Minister's Salary . I'm at the desire of the committee. MR. HENRY J. EINARSON (Rock Lake): Mr. Chairman, just on a point of order here, I think that your comments are well taken.

I believe that we were discussing all these matters yesterday under Administration. The Minister undertook to give all this information now to the honourable gentlemen opposite and I think that in order to facilitate carrying on with the Estimates, I think that the Member for Ste. Rose, if he wishes to come back on those figures, having received them, can do so on the Minister's salary. I think this is only in fairness to the members. I think that they've been given reasonable time to discuss what they did yesterday and that we should carry on and resume what we are doing .

Because the Minister did indicate he would provide that information and they could certainly question him on his salary . MR. CHAIRMAN: To the committee as such, it's not that I'm trying to avoid the discussion or questions on this matter. I think it's just a matter of possibly keeping an order and the opportunity is still there to continue with the discussion on these items.

Because we have a series of infor mation that was submitted to the committee here and if we go through all that again, I'm wondering if we could possibly, with the agreements of the members here, that we could continue with this under the Minister 's Salary. The Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: Yes, Mr. Chairman, I'm just wondering, in light of the information that was provided, I believe it's probab ly been raised that the Member for Ste. Rose asked for actual positions filled and people within posit ions.

I'm wondering whether , you know, when we go onto the Minister 's Salary, the staff will not be available in terms of answering specific questions dealing with matters raised. It will be on the wide -ranging debate on the performance of the Minister within the department.

It could be handled point by point, but then we're going through an item by item description of the staff in every provision, in every division of the Estimates, that we could go through each and every one, but that will probably take up a lot more time of debate and questioning than possibly doing it in one fell swoop and dealing with the whole matter all at once. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I'm trying to provide, as well as I can remember, the information requested last night by the Honourable Member for Ste.

Rose, and I have no objection to having a general discussion about the staffing matter at this time. I would ask members to refer to the second page of the staffing , the two pages that I distributed . We have, in the 1978-79 Estimates, approved positions of 2,753. Currently 612 positions are vacant, February of 1979. That's not an unnatural phenomena in the department. We don't do a great deal of construction at this time of year so you'll note for instance in our Construction Division, we have a fairly high vacancy rate at this time .

Within the Transportation Services, that is that division transferred to us from Northern Affairs: approved staff man years is 242, with 25 vacancies . That's the information that 1 believed I was requested to furnish; that's the information that we have before you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital. MR. D. JAMES WALDING: Mr. Chairman, if we haven't disposed of the point of order yet, may I just point out that these figures were requested when we were under Administration . Had they been available to us at that time , they would have been dealt with by the members here.

However, we did move on and take care of other matters. It would have been quite simple for the members to remain on that item until such time as we had these, but it was in an attempt to be reasonable that we moved along. I would like to suggest the committee now be reasonable and allow this matter 537

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 to be discussed and dealt with . I'm sure we won't come back and duplicate the discussion. MR. CHAIRMAN: It is my intention, to the members, that we won't allow discussion on the items based on the information that was received today . Other than that , individually the items, I don't think we want to get into, but based on the information that you received , the Minister has indicated he's prepared to have discussion on that. Proceed. (Agreed) The Member for Ste. Rose. MR.

ADAM: Yes, well, I thank the Minister for acquiescing to our request to discuss this .· There are members on our side who were not here yesterday and I'm sure would like to make some comments on the records. I believe this clarifies much better than what we had yesterday . There are some things that I would like to point out while we are discussing these particular figures. Running through the debates last year on the staffing , the number of staff on the payroll, the staff man years, we were using a little different .. . This year we asked for actual numbers instead of staff man years.

We did have some breakdowns. I notice that the Minister indicated last year that yes, there was an increase, request for ten additional staff man years that brought it up to 2, 753. He gave us a breakdown of the 2, 753 staff man years. For 1977, he gave us a breakdown of 864 permanent positions, 81 vacancies , 49 term positions, and 1 contract, and 1,829 maintenance positions. At that time, the Minister indicated that it was 2,742. I think it was 2,743 in last year's Hansard .

But this comes to 2,824 rather than ... the breakdown that he gave us, what I'm trying to say is the breakdown that he gave us came up to 2,824 rather than 2,743. There's a difference of 80 staff man years, a discrepancy in the figures . For the 1978 figures, he indicated there was 876 permanent positions, 79 vacant , 49 term, and 1,830 maintenance . This amounts to 2,832, and last year we had the figure of 2, 753. There seems to be about an 80 staff man years discrepancy in the figures . I hope the department can give us an explanation of what this really implies.

In addition to that, if we have to go by that, if it's 2,832 and not 2, 753 as indicated in his comments last year and as indicated on the sheet that's just been handed to us, and we add another 242 or 243 from the Transportation Services , or the Department of Northern Affairs , we come up with a figure of 3,075. So we're getting more and more confused here on the numbers of employees on the payroll. I wonder if the Minister would be able to comment on that or . . . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman , you know, I can appreciate the Member 's difficulty here.

It has been a difficult situation in arriving at the actual staff on salary kind of situation and I don 't want to wish to further complicate the matters, but we have this jargon when we're dealing with staff , perm , temporary , SMYs ; to that there 's been added a new classification , WBs. And I think that's what's before us now , and it's perhaps makes it a little clearer. It's known as Warm Bodies . If people actually - (Interjection) - actually on staff.

And I would ask the Members to not ... the figures before you are the figures that are the approved staff man years, '78-79 , and the vacancies shown are the vacancies existing as of February of '79 on the sheet before you. Now, it's not possible for me to correlate them to what the situation was last year . We have the situation as given to you here, what it was last year , but in the various different terms of types of employees , and that really is the problem that we get into this numbers game whether we have contract employees , term employees, ermanent employees and approved staff man years ..

The Department of Highways has never had a great number of contract employees ; we only had one, I believe , in the last few years, and that position was not extended . 1 can only add to this conversation , Mr. Chairman , by asking the Members of Committee to accept that information it provided by a staff as being the situation as it stands today. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member from St. Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Yes, well, Mr. Chairman , from that point we can accept the figures as presented to us. They just don't jive.

That 's the only problem we have, and it's our duty as Members of the Opposition to scrutinize these figures to see if they are accurate or not, and I'm just questioning that they don't seem to agree with the figures that were given to us last year, and that's why I raised the matter. On that basis , I'm prepared to continue and leave it on the record that the figures just don 't agree . Now whether these are accurate or not will remain to be seen in the future . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital. 538 .. . ..

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 MR. WALDING: Yes, Mr. Chairman , let me just look over this list and see if I understand what has happened. It would seem that last year an additional eleven staff man years were approved, bringing the figure from 27 42 up to 2753. Certain changes were made and the number of positions were moved over from Transportation Services, an additional 242 SMYs, which brought it up to 2995, and that is apparently the figure that is being requested for approval by this committee this year. Is that correct so far? - (Interjection) - Fine.

My colleague asked last night as for the classification of WBs as of January '79 over '78 and the Minister has given us the figures 2093 for '79 and 1836 for the same month of '78, but the '79 figure includes transportation services 217 out of those 242. Am I correct so far, Mr. Minister? MR. ENNS: Yes, except for the WB count , you would have to subtract the 637 from 2995. Correct? If we want to try to . . . I want to be as helpful as I can in getting to the bottom line figure.

We have along with the 25 vacancies in the Transportation Service Division at the bottom of the page, along with the 612 vacancies in the overall department, a total vacancy of 637 from the approved 2995 that I'm asking for approval for. So that fast calculation would therefore bring that into something like 2358, as the WBs. Right? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Yes, Mr. Chairman, if we deduct the number of WBs in '78 from the number for '79, we find the number of 257, which would appear to be the increase . However, 217 of them came over from Transportation Services.

If we then deduct the 217 out of the 257, it would appear to be a net gain in Warm Bodies of 40. Am I still correct so far, Mr. Minister? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman, I'm inclined to accept everything the Honourable Member from Wellington .. . or St. Vital has suggested as being the true and unvarnished truth . MR. WALDING: Mr. Chairman, I think one of my colleagues mentioned yesterday that we would be asking similar questio ns of all of the Cabinet Ministers. And the Minister has told us that in his departmen t that there are 40 extra working persons as of January '79 over January '78.

In Which case, the Minister of Highways has not been a part of that reduction in the civil service that the First Minister claims . So if there has been a general 13 percent or whatever the figure was, this department has not been a part of it, in fact has worked in the opposite direction, an increase ,

whereas the decrease , if it is there, we will expect to find in other departments . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I think , if I may generalize , and I realize I perhaps shouldn't, but I can certainly make the statement that the Department of HighWays did not experience inordinate growth in staff in the last decade . And as such has not contributed as you say, to the reduction in the staff that has been alluded to.

The staff of the Department of Highways has remained fairly constant with few notable changes; the one change that I pointed out last night, the time of the introduction of Autopac, motor vehicles branch or division of the Department had a sizeable increase, which then decreased in ensuing years as some of the functions moved over to the administration of Autopac. But in its initial start-up, the Motor Vehicle Branch experienced 100 or 130, you know, persons increase during those years, '71, '72. But your general

summary, speaking to the Honourable Member for St. Vital, is correct , that . .. and I think perhaps we can be satisfied with that conclusion that " ye who seek for the lost and for the wandering will not be found within the pathways and highways of the department ". MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. Vital. MR. WALDING: Yes, Mr. Chairman, to match the Minister's quote or to answer the Minister's quote . .. MR. ENNS: I think you want Isaiah:

Chapter 10, Verse 3 and 4. MR. WALDING: I wouldn't challenge the Minister's knowledge in that regard, but there is a quotation about "Those who seek the truth, and the truth shall set you free." No more questions, Mr. Chairman. 539

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: Yes, on the point of the figures we have before us; on the second page we find requests for 2,995 staff man years with a vacancy of 637. That leaves us, the figures that the Minister quoted a while ago, of 2,358. We have, as of January 1979, 2,093 actual employees. Then there would be ... MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman , we are asking approval for staff man years of 2,995, but as provided to the committee this afternoon , there are a number of vacancies that are in the process of being filled and likely will be filled very shortly as the construction season and the greater activity with the oncome of spring requires the department to fill these vacancies . MR. ADAM: Yes, is that hirin g process already started, like say from the January figure of 2,093 to the February figure of ... What I am saying is that we should have 2,358. Have we hired 358, or 250 people since the first of January? MR. ENNS: Mr.

Chairman, it varies as the projects come onstream, and as different activities heighten in different divis ions of the department. We have had, in the last month for instance, had to make every attempt to fill all vacancies in the Motor Vehicle Branch because it is the time of the year where the Motor Vehicle Branch, in the re-registering of all the 600,000 vehicles in the province requires the staff complement to be filled to its upper limit, to provide the service to the public .

Similarly , in some of the divisions, whether it's the bridge office, whether it's surveys, titles, where there are one, or two , or three vacancies currently shown on that list that you have; they will be filled as the work demands it. MR. ADAM: Mr. Chairman , the figures that were given to us on the vacancies last year, was 81 vacancies, and for 1977-78 the vacancies were 79, which was almost the same, only a difference of three. This is, I believe, in March or April of last year. That's for the number of vacancies . Now, we are almost in that period , and we have a vacancy of 637.

I am just wondering why there is such a big wide ... Is this a normal figure to have vacant - 600 or 700, at this time of the year, or is there just more vacancies than we had last year? MR. ENNS: You see, there has been an effort throughout all departments of government to approach this matter of staff in a somewhat different way in a sense that the Memeer for St. George will know this, the figures that were used last year were the established SMYs, and departments tend to tell us they guard those positions , you know , once that position is established.

There has been a pretty total review of the actual SMYs required for a position , and in some cases positions that have not been required have been allowed to remain vacant. That is why you have a rise in the vacancy positions at this time .

But in the Department of Highways, we have - I don 't think it's unique to the Department of Highways - but you have a job, a project, calls for X number of staff man hours of work, and you end up with half staff man years here, half staff many years there within divisions ; it's misleading , regrettably, to look at the SMY figure as being interrelated in a very finite way to actual persons employed. A project may call, from our experience, for X number of hours of input , which we put down as representing five staff man years.

It may mean the work of half a dozen engineering aides for three months, plus some additional effort on other employees . That gets charged to that project and shows up as SMYs. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: Yes, thank you, Mr. Chairman . The Minister just indicated in his remarks that the government has done a considerable review with respect to the numbers of staff in various positions , and some positions were allowed to be kept at that pace.

Is there any area in the Department of Highways in which the Minister can say that they have not allowed , as a result of - and I will use his words in the way I interpret them - allowed to get out of hand in terms of numbers, that you have frozen staff within the department because there was an over abundance of staff in any area? MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , those honourable members who are familiar with the Department of Highways , will quickly recognize that there has been no fundamental change within the department.

We operate the twelve district offices in precisely the same way as has been the case for the last number of years and staffed in pretty well the same way. There is always some pressure on individual 540

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 districts as workload increases in that distr ict, or for some particularly heavy projects that are going through a district for additional aid , in terms of usually in the form of an assistant, assistant engineering aide to the district engineer. But the basic structure of the department, if I understand the question, has remained the same and there has been no revision of that establishment.

The one exception that I spoke about last night, which doesn't amount to a great deal in terms of people, but the one division that I want to see an upward revision of staff , and that is in the planning division.

One of the problem areas within the depar tment is our incapability of doing sufficient advance planning work which often results in the holding up of other departments of governments in pursuing their paths, for instance, the Department of Municipal Affairs as they try to approve or not approve of say, a subdivision or any number of things, because we do not know far enough in advance as to what our future plans are. So at a particular intersection or on a particular roadway. we have strengthened the planning division by, I believe, one person this year; it's my hope to strengthen it further.

But if I were to look at the department , that is perhaps the one area that we are making an emphasis, or desire to increase staff in order to shorten the lead time, or shorten the time necessary for us in Highways to be able to come up with the answers we are often asked by other disciplines, and including the private sector and just private individuals and citizens, who ask for the permission to build in controlled zones near or at intersections, and who we'd then have to deny because we simply haven't got our planning far enough in advance. ~ There is the one caveat I also indicated last night , the absorption of the Transportation Services Division from Northern Affairs.

We are satisfied that we have managed to carry-on the functions and responsibilities of that division in a satisfactory manner but it is a new division coming into the department that there will be undoubtedly some further reorganization take place as the two divisions - that is, as the Transportation Services Division fits in and moulds into the Department of Highways as it existed. MR. URUSKI: Yes, Mr.

Chairman, could I ask the Minister specifically whether the Planning Services provided by the Department of Highways - is that being done for the new branch of Transportation Services or do Transportation Services have their own planning capabilities in terms of their workload that they undertake? MR. ENNS: Well, Mr. Chairman, I believe that we are now back on course on the Estimates, we are dealing with Planning and Design, and I'd be quite happy to . . . MR. URUSKI: Well, all right, I can deal with it but I'm relating it into this, if you wish then I can MR.

ENNS: I think the question is probably more appropriately asked as we come on to Planning. MR. CHAIRMAN: Does that complete the discussion based on the information that was handed out by the Minister? MR. URUSKI: Well, in terms of the vacancies of the staff positions that the Minister has provided , he shows a large vacancy rate in the Safety Division of the administration of the MVB. What areas specifically are the vacancies that he shows within the department of 17, what area of the Safety Division? Mr.

Chairman, I can appreciate the vacancy rate in the Maintenance and Assistance area, as those being seasonal jobs in nature as well as the Construction Division of the department, but the area of in-highway safety, where there is a vacancy of 17 - of 10 percent to be quite specific, what areas are the nature of the jobs performed? MR. ENNS: I'm advised that the largest single of some some 8 lies within the personnel for the School Driver Education Program , recruitment is in progress.

We have had some difficulty in recruiting at the current rate of remuneration, as the former Minister is perhaps aware, but that consists of some 8 of those 17 persons. MR. URUSKI: Is that Driver Examiners for the department? MR. ENNS: No - Driver Examiners? MR. URUSKI: And the remaining 9? 541

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 MR. ENNS: I'm advised, Mr. Chairman, that these 17 vacancies exist in these categories of Driver Records, Driver Testing Branches, Mobile Units, Driver Education , Vehicle Inspection , snowmob ile and bicycles and dealers . In general that is the area the 17 vacancies exist in. Many of them are filled on a seasonal basis - the Driver Mobile Inspection Units are operational as the spring comes on. We have the mobile units then move out throughout the province and begin their inspection teams, and that's possibly the area where the 17 come in predominantly . MR.

URUSKI: Has there been any - and I don 't believe there have but I would like it specifically with respect to the Boards and Commissions - any change in the staffing over the last couple of years in the Boards? MR. ENNS: I'm advised that there has been no change , Mr. Chairman . MR. URUSKI: That's all I have on the specifics as I can ask the remaining questions on safety at the appropriate time. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Ste. Rose. MR. ADAM: I have a couple more questions , Mr.

Chairman , on the vacant positions , the 286 shown on Maintenance, Mechanical , Warehouse , Assistance - that 286 would be primarily on the Maintenance group , is that correct? Or could you give us a breakdown on that? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. ENNS: I'm advised that it's a combination and that 's why you have the parenthesis there of Maintenance, Mechanical Division, Warehouse and Assistance.

All the activity in those areas is somewhat seasonal, and there is an overlapping involved there , the demand say of our warehousing capability to respond increases fairly dramatically as our crews go out on the actual job sites and pick up their general maintenance load in the spring again . MR. ADAM: Yes, we will move on to the Transportation Services of 242 employees being taken over by the Highways Department . What problems have been surfacing in this transition , and the Minister indicated that there would be further reorganiza tion.

I wonder if he could elaborate and tell us exactly what his plans are for the future . MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , I think I have been reasonabl y willing to discuss virtually the entire Estimates under this staffing question . There is the speci fic areas, you know , in the Estimates that will enable us to talk specifically and generally abou t the problems that a division such as " Transportation Division encounters . I'm quite prepared to discuss it now , but I know that we'll discuss it again perhaps an hour from now, and I would wonder if we could then not begin to get back to the Estimates, Mr.

Chairman , with all due respect to my colleag ues on the Committee . MR. ADAM: If you could indicate to us where we will be able to discuss it? MR. ENNS: No. 9 - on Page 57, No. 9 - Transpor tation Services is those 242 people , and we can then . . MR. ADAM: That's fine . MR. CHAIRMAN: Can we then proceed to Planning and Design? MR. ADAM: Agreed . MR. CHAIRMAN: 3.(

a) Salaries - $997,300 - the Member for St. George . MR. URUSKI: Mr. Chairman , I would like the Ministe r to indicate and elaborate on his statements with respect to Planning and Design work , and problem areas that he has encountered in that branch , and in terms of future plann ing and programming of highway development within the prov ince. MR. ENNS: Mr. Chairman , this division of the department has to respond you know on some very significant transportation problems that often have to be worked together with other jurisd ictions 542 --

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 such as the city . Let me name you just a few of the major planning processes that the division is involved with: Winnipeg Rail Relocat ion Study , which is always an item for concern with or without the Sherbrook -McGregor overpass; Urban Transportation Task Force; the Winnipeg Region Study. We have to dovetail our planning with what the city does with respect to their planning of their major arterial streets , as to how they impact on our provincial highway systems.

We can't have the city planning for a major egress from the city into a pasture, onto a wheat field somewhere, it has to tie in with an existing highway structure, No. 2, No. 3, No. 75 South, or No. 6 or 7 or 9 North, and impacts on our responsibility once they reach the perimeter and an expensive traffic interchange is requ ired . The Manitoba Northlands Agreements , which we negotiate with the Department of Northern Affairs and the federal government, there used to be the FRED Program, the Member for St.

George will be familiar with that , that is more or less completed, that phase of that transportation involvement at that time. We have such things as the Brandon area Grains Study; we have other items of continuing concern , the Highway Strengthening Agreement which regrettably has been deferred. We have to plan to some extent together with the Emergency Measures Organization, their flood fighting efforts . We're involved with public meetings ; we're involved with Indian communities, Indian bands, in the always problem area of responding to requests to build public roads on Indian reserves .

We have a major problem thrust onto us through metric conversion and that's causing things. These are the areas that this division is involved with and I think just that listing of it can indicate to you that the relatively small staff complement that we have there is well loaded down with work.

Then we have, in addition to that, the very specific requests that come in, for instance, the Manitoba Pool Elevators wants to locate a major grain handling facility just outside of Brandon , and the location of that is very important to us in terms of maintaining and protecting the public cost that we have put into certain roadways in that area. We have the requests from individual and private entrepreneurs , whether it' s a hotel or a motel wishing to locate on an intersection that will drastically alter the flow of traffic on our highways.

To respond to these many individual requests is, in essence, what this division is all abou t. MR. CHAIRMAN: In accorda nce with Rule 19.2, I am interrupting the proceedings of the committee for the Private Members ' Hour, and will return to the Chair at 8 p .m. SUPPLY - MINES, NATUL RESOURCES AND ENVIRONMENT MR. CHAIRMAN, Abe Kovnats (Radisson): I would direct the honourable members' attention to Page 64, in the Main Estimates , Department of Mines, Natural Resources and Environment. We are on Resolution No. 83, 3. , Mineral Resources (

a) Administration :

(1) Salaries - pass - the Honourable Member for Inkster . MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman , last evening we stopped off on this item which I indicated that I felt was of some importance and wanted to deal with it this afternoon rather than at the late hour in view of the fact that we probably wouldn't complete it. And I had, Mr. Chairman, received confirmation from the Minister of Mines and from the Minister of Labour who I am happy to acknowledge his fairness , the Minister of Labour said that the point I had raised was a valid point, one which is causing some concern to the department as it well should, Mr. Chairman.

To review very briefly , we have a mine in the Province of Manitoba employing approximately 3,000 workers in one of what is acknowledged to be the most hazardous fields of occupation , that is of mining . The Minister of Labour being sufficiently concerned with safety in the mining industry so that he set up a Committee to enquire into it, went to the various locations in northern Manitoba where there are mines , to deal with the problem and we have what appears to be a situation whereby i no laws with regard to safety are either in existence or being enforced in the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Corporation.

The Minister says, while the company is permitting us to do our inspections and they don 't seem to be resisting us, but what we do know is that if they are to be prosecuted, the company has taken the position that they are not responsible, that the laws do not apply to them, that that has been the decision of the Court of Appeal and therefore , the mining safety in Flin Flon exists by the grace of the Hudson Bay Company . Mr. Chairman , I acknowledge that the situation arose during the previous administration but it arose not through any fault of the previous administration.

We were prosecuting our mining laws as if they did exist. We went to the Court of Appeal, found that they did not exist and then we immediately - and I ask the Minister to review his records - we immediately got in touch with 543

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 the Government at Ottawa saying that something should be done. Now, Mr. Chairman, the main responsibility is not with this Minister . This Minister should be doing everything in his power to activate the Federal Government.

But the fact is, that the Federal Government apparently knows of a situation where it has the jurisdiction where there are 3,000 people employed, where there are no safety inspectors having lawful authority to enforce uhe regulations and after a lapse of almost two years - there would be some period during the previous administration where we were urging them on - and my recollection Mr. Chairman , is that a letter went to the Prime Minister , that he responded , that he indicated that he agreed with us.

But in the meantime we have a period of some two years without adequate rules and regulations with respect to the mining industry. Well, Mr. Speaker, I used the word adequate . I think that is the opposite of an exaggeration , that's an understatement. I'm not sure whether any rules exist. And I think that the Minister, when I posed the question yesterday, acknowledged that he doesn 't know whether there are any rules that exist. So the International Nickel Company has to abide by laws, the Sherritt Gordon Mining Company has to abide by laws. The people 's company to the extent of 25 percent has to abide by laws.

But the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company , they will co-operate with us when they feel it is desirable to do so. But what we do know is that when we prosecuted a foreman or a supervisor for permitting a man to work under unsafe conditions , the defence wasn 't not guilty, the defence was your laws do not exist. And the defence succeeded . And Mr. Chairman, I'm not going to reflect upon the decisions of the Courts. I believe that the decision was wrong. But that's a personal belief . It doesn 't make any difference whether I believe that it's wrong or right.

That fact is that the Court of Appeal in the Province of Manitoba said that the laws do not exist and since then the Federal Government which has jurisdiction has done nothing. And Mr. Chairman , I emphasize , the fault is primarily with the Federal Government. They are aware of a situation where these people are working , where ostensibly the courts have said that there are no laws, and where nothing has been done ; the Minister may not accede to that.

Whatever has been done has not resulted in him being able to get up and say a very simple thing , that if there is a breach of mining regulations , which are designed to maintain safety at the Flin Flon mine , there are laws in place and there can be a prosecution . The Minister is unable to say that. For a period, I was unable to say it, and all I am suggesting , Mr. Chairman , is we can 't have working people in the province of Manitoba operate under that state of affairs . We prosecuted INCO; I don't know whether we were the ones that started it or you, it really doesn 't matter .

The Province of Manitoba prosecuted INCO; I don 't know , it went at least to the Court of Appeal of the province of Manitoba. Did it go as far as the Supreme Court of Canada? Mr. Hague is shaking his head, so it stayed here in the Court of Appeal of the Province of Manitoba . I'm not going to go into that decision , although I certainly , again, don 't agree with it. But , Mr. Chairman, if we have difficulty prosecuting when there are laws, and we can 't convict anybody, how much more difficult it is to convict somebody when there are no laws.

I think that the Minister has to do something to satisfy the miners at Hudson 's Bay, and I thank the Minister of Labour for acknowledging that there is a difficult point here, and perhaps , Mr. Chairman , only what comes out of this debate will be of some value. Can we be of value to the Minister? Or is he able to get a government, ostensibly responsible to do its duty with regard to one of the most basic fundamental types of regulations in what is admittedly one of the most hazardous industries to have people work in?

Because it is simply not satisfactory , and I'm sure it's not satisfactory to the Minister , to have to stand up and say the problem is not resolved . What can be done? Perhaps the First Minister of this province should go and see the Prime Minister of Canada directly and tell him that this situation cannot exist. And if the situation is less difficult than 1 understand - and the Minister of Labour acknowledged it to then assure us in that respect, because that will certainly be welcome if it is not as much of a problem as I appear to think it is. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. BRIAN RANSOM: Mr.

Chairman, I don't attempt to make the problem appear to be any less serious than the Honourable Member makes it out and I don't wish to make any excuses for why the situation hasn't been rectified. All I can do is explain the circumstances that exist and that prevail. There are three governments involved : the Federal Government and the Saskatchewan government and our own. And at the moment the issue is in the hands of the Labour Departments of our government and the government of Saskatchewan , and they will have to take an agreed 544

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 position to the Federal Government and attempt to get it resolved . In the meantime, 1 can only say that in terms of response to inspections, that sort of thing, that the company continues to comply with the inspections and the recommendations of our inspectors . Now the Honourable Member can say that there 's no legal basis for that, I agree, but the fact is that the company continues to comply with the reports of our mines branch . ~ inspectors. --- ,. .. • MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Inkster. MR. GREEN: Well, Mr.

Chairman, , I say to the Minister and with the greatest of respect to him that it is simply not satisfactory to have a situation in the Province of Manitoba whereby the workers' safety regulations are at the sufferance of the company. As wonderful as my honourable friend or others may think the company is, there is absolutely no precedent for saying that legal requirements with regard to safety regulations are at the sufferance of the company. Mr. Chairman, what the Minister says disturbs me somewhat; he says Saskatchewan and Manitoba have to qet together and agree on something that goes to Ottawa.

If that's not What he said, then 1 would want him to correct me. Mr. Chairman, there is a qovernment of Canada which the court has said has jurisdiction in that area. The government of Canada has jurisdiction with respect to a mine where 3000 men are going into the pits every day - five days a week. They are permitting them to do this without passing a regulation, without authorizing an inspector, without there being an enforcement procedure .

Again, if I am exaggerating the problem and it's almost so stark a problem that I would want to believe that I am exaggerating; that the government of Canada is permitting this situation to go on, and they will so permit it to occur until they hear from Saskatchewan and Manitoba. Now, I agree that there should be some rationalization of this problem . But in the meantime, Mr. Chairman, we have what is supposed to be a duly responsible government, and they should be urged to act. I would want the law to be changed for reasons , Mr.

Chairman, that I don't think that that law was ever intended to go beyond industrial relations. But my position is found wrong by the courts, it says it's intended for everything . Do you know what that means, Mr. Chairman? That means that Hudson Bay could have said, with regard to Medicare and Pharmacare, what the railroad said. The railroad said, "Manitoba can't legislate with respect to us". Now, fortunately, at least that's my recollection, Hudson Bay didn 't say so at the time, and Medicare and the remission of premiums Was handled by that company the same as other Manitoba companies.

But the Court of Appeal in effect said that Hudsons Bay is the same as the CNR: it's a federal work and undertaking. We have no jurisdiction to pass laws with respect to them, except laws which generally apply in the proVince of Manitoba , but that we have no power . I would think, Mr. Chairman, that on the basis of the Court of Appeal 's decision, we would not have the power to enforce environmental standards on them . I think that that's the case. We did . There was a Clean Environment Commission order , there was a stack put up at Flin Flon in compliance with that order.

But I am now inclined to think that if we followed the Court of Appeals decision, it's a federal worker undertaking. You can not impose standards . You cannot have general laws as you would have with regard to the others . I'm wondering, Mr. Chairman, whether they will say that our taxation laws can not apply to them. I don't know how Eldorado Mining in Ontario deals with the Province of Ontario with regard to mining . Perhaps they have to pay a tax in any event even though uranium was taken out of the field of provincial jurisdiction .

So the matter has to be resolved and I say that it should be resolved in favour of the normal law that applies to other mining companies. But, by God, until it is resolved surely the Federal Government should enact a series of regulations. Maybe they should adopt the Manitoba regulations , send them a copy, tell them to pass an Order-in-Council and tell them to delegate our inspectors to inspect the m ines. And if there is a violation that the violation will be dealt in accordance with those laws. Now I would wish that the Minister would tell me that that's in fact what is happening .

But he hasn't said anythingthat would indicate that that's what is happening . MR. CHAIRMAN: - pass. The Honourable Member for Flin Flon. MR. THOMAS BARROW: Mr. Chairman , I would like to say a few words on this very portant piece of legislation work. I it will hope be legislation. Flin Flon, it's ironic and sometimes its almost funny the way it works with the jurisdiction between Saskatchewan and Manitoba. At one time - it's changed since - the compensation paid by the Saskatchewan government was 75 percent, by the Manitoba government it was 66-2/3 percent.

There was line drawn , so if you got hurt, it paid to get hurt in Saskatchewan . They even have a case of where a rock came down the Manitoba 545

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 bounced into Saskatchewan and hurt one of the employees and they had one hellava time to establish whether they would pay him 166-2/3 percent or 75 percent. This is not funny , it 's a serious thing. But that was remedied so they 're both of equal value now. It was ironic there was line drawn so a Saskatchewan inspector had jurisdiction up to a certain point , a foot over that line he didn 't. The Manitoba inspector was the same. He had the same jurisdiction over the Manitoba side .

It really didn 't make a hellava difference lot of difference because the company didn 't do much about it anyway . They disregarded both the inspectors . But, Mr. Chairman, what I would like to talk about and to express the feelings of the people who are most concerned ' and I would like to read this into the record - it 's from the steel representative of Flin Flon and I'll table this letter if the Minister desires . And he expresses it very well, and I would just like to put it on record' if you don't mind . " Dear Mr.

O'Connell, Minister of Labour, House of Commons : The Manitoba Mines Safety Review Committee has just completed hearings in Flin Flon and heard a lengthy discussion of our jurisdiction problem. The Chairman , Claude Wright , commented 'How can you have an effective safety and health program until you resolve this issue?

Even the manager representative on the committee , Donald Munn , formerly of lnco said, 'There just isn't any reason I can see why a mine in Snow Lake should be in the federal jurisd iction.' He was referring to the problem of Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting being under a special Act of parliment passed in 1947 . As a result, mine workers in one of the most dangerous occupations in the land at Flin Flon and Snow Lake are covered by neither by the Manitoba Workplace Health and Safety Act nor the Saskatchewan Occupational " - It Health and Safety Act. makes them an orphan, Mr. Chairman .

They are neither fish, nor fowl or good red herring, they 're lost-"The Canada Labour code contains no provisions for mining that are helpful to our members at Flin Flon." - It concludes here.- " The code refuses to perform. unsafe work provisions are inferior the provisions of the Saskatchewan and Manitoba laws. There are no federal mines inspectors although they have the jurisdiction. Flin Flon is on the Manitoba Saskatchewan border but the company Snow Lake Mines is 135 miles from that border and we are still up in the air as far as ...

There is no agreement between the federal and the provincial governments to license provincial mines inspectors, to enforce any federal safety laws. When the Manitoba Mines Inspection Branch laid charges against the company in 1976 for perm itting unsafe conditions, the case was thrown out by the courts when the company lawyers raised a jurisdiction problem. Therefore 1,000 of our members in Flin Flon and 350 in Snow Lake are entirely unprotected . Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company Limited does not have to follow any safet y laws and the Federal Government is letting them get away with it.

In light of the support for our position from the Chairman of the Mine Safety and Health Review Committee , and from the Union and management members of this enquiry , I ask what you intend to do to solve the problem and when? "I would remind you that 14 workers have died in the Hudson Bay Mining and Smelting Company in the past eight years. Six at Snow Lake in the past few years." Now, Mr. Chairman , imagine if these were mounties or policemen , the media and the publicity would be focused in on this thing . But they are only miners , so it doesn 't seem to matter to people.

A miner is very low in the totem poles it seems to me. "There have been many near misses and serious injuries . There are countless hazards in the mines and the surface plants such as dust ... lead, noise , etc. We must have protection and cannot excuse any more stalling by your government ." And this has been sent to different people , politicians , and if the Minister cares to I will table it and hopefully get some answers . Mr. Chairman , this isn't a recent thing. I've pursued this for some time .

I've pursued it with my own Labour Minister, Russ Paulley and we were at the verge ... he had the meeting arranged , both with Saskatchewan and the Feds and seemingly they were quite willing to pass the jurisdiction to Manitoba . Unfortunately, the honourable member took ill. He was in no condition and it didn 't get passed . It didn't materialize . I also pursued it with the former Minister of Labour on your side I asked the question three, four, five times in this House, when she was going to do something about this jurisdiction . It doesn't cost any money, it wouldn 't interfere with your restraint programs .

It's a simple thing to do and they were all willing, and why didn 't she do it? And she had one standard answer , Mr. Minister, one standard answer, and she would say, "I 'm looking into it ". I hope this Minister does look into it and gets some answers and quickly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman . MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Inkster . MR. GREEN: I will leave the item. I only want to confirm one matter . I consider it very serious , 546 ..... , :

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 1 think the Minister considers it very serious. I regard his silence as two things . One, that he has given all the answers he can. And two, that I have not said anything that is wrong. Because I'm worried, Mr. Chairman , I am worried whether I am in some way misconstruing what is happening and 1 regard the Minister's silence as not challenging what I have said. I don't regard it as being an attempt to ignore the problem. I know that is not what he is doing. I do think there is other things that he can do.

I think that it's more serious than saying that the two provinces have to get together. Mr. Chairman , I don 't know whether anyone in Ottawa has been impressed with the fact of what they are doing . Seldom have you heard this kind of situation; where else does it apply in Canada? And we've got our citizens up there . So I say to you, that I still regard Ottawa as the major culprit but that doesn't mean that I don't think that the Minister should be urged to do something . And I think that if he will look at the previous correspondence we wrote Mr. Trudeau. Mr.

Trudeau - my recollect ion - wrote back that he agrees with us. But that was two years ago' or almost two years ago. It must have been at least 15 months ago because less than that we didn 't have the opportunity to write in any capacity . That's right. Now, Mr. Chairman, I do have another item which relates to the same area. May I say, Mr. Chairman, that we won't be repetitive, Mr.

Chairman, about this issue but we still think that other issues under mining, engineering and inspection should come under (c) - not this issue - so that we have your ruling quite clear that we will discuss mining and engineering and inspection other than this particular one when we get to (c). 1 would like to know from the Minister with regard to the potential - I think that that is probably too cautious a word, because the mineral exploration company said that it is a mine - that we have found in conjunction with Granges exploration in the area of Flin Flon, are we maintaining our percentage investment in that particular mine?

MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister. MR. RANSOM: Yes, Mr. Chairman . MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, then I gather that that is one, at least one property where we have tt not abandoned our compulsory participation. I want to make sure that I am being clear because the Min ister the other day said that we have abandoned our compulsory participation program but I gather that with regard to that property, we are maintaining our participation at the level to which we were entitled to participate when the discovery was made. MR. RANSOM: The reference to abandoning compulsory participation Mr.

Chairman, to new proposals that exploration companies put forward as a matter of policy since last October, November of 1977 , we had not been participating in further agreements or in new agreements submitted, pardon me.

And as o f last October we announced the change in the regulation which removed the requ irement for new programs to be submitted but the programs that the province was already • participating in, those interests remain with Manitoba minerals and of the 1979 agreements that the company took over from the province, I'm advised that 14 of them are active , 32 are suspended, 29 further participation is decline and 4 have have been terminated. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Member for Inkster. ·~ MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, participation declined, does that mean on our part? MR. RANSOM: I would assume so, Mr. Chairman.

MR. GREEN: Mr. Chairman, I again, I want to congratulate the Minister on having some some pragmatic bones in his body. I won't attribute them to any particular Bolshevism, we've been all through that, bu I am glad that the Minister is not going to divest himself of public participation in a mine when it appears to be there . Now my recollection is that the agreement provided that we were, well, between 45 percent to 50 percent of that particular program, and that that particular program proceeded, and I gather that what the Minister is saying is that we will maintain our 45 547

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 percent interest, we will not be diluted . If that's the case, Mr. Chairman , then I will be shorn of much of the ammunition which 1 thought the Conservative Party would have given me if they were really true to their position because they say that the public should not be involved, that this was a doctrinaire socialist program , that the private sector can do it better, and that we should not be requiring mining companies to carry us as a partner. That's their position, Mr. Chairman .

And I thought that what the Minister was going to do was to come into this House and say, "Yes, we have a 45 percent interest in this program; we haven't taken It out, but we're not going to put any more money into it because that 's Bolshevism . "That's what my friend , the First Minister, likes to refer to as incompetent socialism.

" Therefore, although we won't take the 45 percent out, we are going to permit all further investment to be made by the private sector because that's the only kind of investment that's kosher and very soon, when they go to development, we will be a very very small shareholder because our 45 percent will have been diluted down to a very small amount." Mr. Chairman , that's the speech I was expecting to hear from the Minister , that's the speech that I spent all last night preparing to attack and the ground has just, Mr.

Chairman , been pulled from under my feet because the Minister has shown that the Conservative party , despite the fact that they are not socialists, in this particular respect neither are they fools . What has happened is that the public - and it gives me time to make another speech - the public along with a private sector firm, have discovered what is very likely a mine. We are presently 45 percent owners of it and because we put business sense over doctrinaire conservatism , we are going to remain 45 percent owners .

If there is development on that mine and it requires another $100,000, we will put up $45,000; the private company will put up $55 ,000 and we will remain 45 percent owners. If there is a reason to develop the mine and it requires an investment of another $10 million, the mining Granges will put up $5.5 million , we will put up $4.5 million and we will remain 45 percent owners of the mine.

Under our development agreement , when there are any profits made, which I am optimistic enough to think that there will be - I'm not saying when, but there will be - and we will then not be stuck with the puny royalties which are going to be charged by the Minister by the time he gets through with this session , but we will be entitled to 45 percent of the profits of that mine. Mr. Chairman , if that applied with respect to some of the other mining properties which have been developed in this province , then , Mr.

Chairman, we would have an income of a minimum of $50 million a year from mining operations - a minimum of $50 million a year - which is a full one percent of sales tax which the Conservatives apparently prefer to charge to the people of the Province of Manitoba rather than being involved in this type of activity. I look forward , Mr. Chairman , to further comment from the Minister as to how this mine will be developed , what the time tab le is, what the further prospects are. I will repeat , Mr.

Chairman , because apparently it needs repeating , that there was a myth developed which had absolutely no foundation, that somehow mineral activ ity reduced in the Province of Manitoba by virtue of our participation program. The facts are, and they have never been denied, that in the first full year of our participation program , we had a record amount of mineral exploration in terms of dollars spent , rouggly $16 million. I can't say that that is a record with regard to activity because I am not certain, the inflation factor is involved .

And that doesn't include what INCO did on its own closely guarded property during the same period , because we don't know. The year of 1977, the last year that we were in government , I guess we would take it as a fiscal year, those were the figures, Mr. Chairman, that were given to me. Perhaps that was for 1977 calendar, but the figures were given to me earlier in the year by what was then my administration . That didn't occur until the end of the year. But it was $16 million which was an all-time high .

In the current year - these figures were confirmed by the department - in the current year , that's 1977, I made these remarks on September 26, 1977 , when I was still the Minister , " Funds expended on mining exploration will be roughly $16 million. This does not take into account explorat ion costs by INCO on properties to which the public no longer has access by virtue of commitments of the previous administration ." You see, INCO received what they called Order-in-Council leases. Those Order-in-Council leases were different than any other mining leases .

They weren 't legally much different but they represented a government commitment that they would last for a certain per iod of time and INCO was not required to accept us as a partner on those 0/C leases, nor is Sherritt required to accept us as a partner on some of their leases which were in the vicinity of the Thompson mine . They go quite a distance and there is a big piece of the Province of Manitoba. But that is the figure that was used , Mr.

Chairman , and lest any of my honou rable friends think that we did not have respectable . partners , let me say that Sherr itt Gordon Mines was a partner , that Hudsons Bay Mining and Smelting was a partner with the Manitoba Mineral Resources even before we had the compulsory program , that Acquitain Company of Canada Limited was a partner , that Canadian Occidental Petroleum Limited was a partner , Consolida ted Morrison Explorations 548

• • Tuesday, March 6, 1979 Dennison Mines Limited, Dome Exploration Limited, Du-Connects Resources Limited, Dupont of Canada Exploration Limited, Falconbridge Nickel Mines Limited, Granges Exploration, that's the one we made a find with, Gulf Minerals Canada Limited . - I'm not going through them all; I'm going through some of the names which some of the members might find more familiar - Mcintyre Mines Limited, Noranda Exploration Company Limited, Shell Canada Resources Limited, Union Oil Company of Canada Limited, United Sisco Mines Limited, and others. Now, Mr.

Chairman, if we are going to change our program - well, not if - we are obviously going to change our program. I am merely suggesting that it be changed not on the basis that there was no activity in the Province of Manitoba, but that the existing government feels that private activity, with the absence of government participation, is, in their view, a better means of proceeding. On that basis, Mr. Chairman, I think that the issues are fairly clear cut. I don't think that there is any doubt whatsoever.

As a matter of fact I am certainly authorized to say that the New Democratic Party will go to the people of the Province of Manitoba, and say that if we are returned to power, we will see to it that the public has a substantial role in participating in the mineral exploration and the development of future mining properties in the Province of Manitoba. The attack on this program, Mr. Speaker, and the sense of the program is substantiated by what was said about it.

One columnist, who deserves to be kept in obscurity insofar as his name is concerned, suggested that the New Democratic Party program was entitled to 50 percent of all of the minerals developed in the Province of Manitoba by virtue of us merely passing a law. They pretended, Mr. Chairman, that we had a law which said that we are entitled to 50 percent of what is now being produced in the Province of Manitoba. Others pretended that we were getting 50 percent without putting up 50 percent of the money. None of that is so.

As a matter of fact, the regulation on which we proceeded was said by the industry at the time, that if the public wants to participate, the method that they have chosen is fair. They didn't agree that we should participate, but nobody said that the method was unfair. They said that the method that has been chosen is fair. We don't agree that they should want to be partners, but there is nothing about the partnership which is unfair to the company as if it had another partner, except that they said, "You are the government and you are not only our partner but you can make the rules." Now, Mr.

Chairman, the fact is that there will be a clear cut issue on this program. The Minister no longer does what anybody who has mineral properties does. You do not see INCO permitting people to explore on their property without INCO having a share. As a matter of fact, if INCO lets you go on their property, they take an interest without putting on money, because they say it's our property you're on. They, therefore, demand an interest. We don't even have that, Mr . Chairman.

You know, the peculiar thing about our royalty laws which I could see no correction to, is that theoretically the mining companies could remove tons of ore from the ground in the Province of Manitoba and never pay a cent in royalties to our province. Does that sound shocking? It is theoretically true and, in many cases, occurred. Because our royalty was based on profit and if a company showed no profit, despite the fact that they removed tons of concentrate, they paid no royalties. That happened from time to time; it didn't happen all the time. Fortunately, they made profit some years and paid some royalties.

But find me one mining company who is going to do what this Minister does, or what this government does. Find me one mining company that says, "We have mineral properties, but you can come on our properties and if you make an exploration, you can take it out, and if you make any profit, we'll take 15 percent. If you don't, we won't take anything." Nobody deals that way. There's only one holder of resources that disposes of them in that fashion; that's the Conservative administration. So when they say, Mr.

Chairman, as part of the heading - and I'm going now on the hope that we didn't use the same heading, although maybe we did - that what the Mineral Resources Department does is consists of activities pertaining to, and then it says various things, "disposition of Crown mineral rights." That's what we are engaged in, disposing of public mineral rights, that's the department's central activity. It's regrettable because, Mr. Minister, whether you like it or not, the people in your department, as I've perceived them, the geologists, had a new lease on life when they were involved in this program.

They were not then regarded by their brothers in the industry as people who merely regulate what others were doing. They walked a little taller; they had a little bit more fire in them, and they said, "We are now in the industry with the other geologists." You've taken that away, and more important, you've taken away from the people of this province a real opportunity to engage in the aggressive development of our mineral resources. And I say with the greatest of respect, Mr.

Chairman, to the Minister, that he has not compensated for this removal with anything which we will gain a benefit from, including more money from our mineral resources or more activity. There will not be more money, there will be less money; there will not be more activity, there will be less activity. I want to ask, Mr. Chairman, before I sit down, whether the Minister intends to bring legislation 549

Tuesday, March 6, 1979 into this House increasing the mineral royalty tax to 23 percent from the present 15 percent at the first tier . He's going to remove the second tier . Is he going to increase the mineral tax to 23 percent? MR. CHAIRMAN: The Honourable Minister . MR. RANSOM: Well, Mr.

Chairman , I think this is an opportune time for me to deal with some of the questions that the Honourable Member has raised because , as he has pointed out, that this area of development of our mineral resources is certainly one that is fundamental to the differences and the philosophical approach between the Honourable Members opposite and those of us on this side, and I would suggest , Mr. Chairman, that on

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	31-3-14a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	31st 3rd hansardpdf 14a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	282d5451d1c257dd9f1bd30ce5dab59b59a60793

Source file is stored in the law ingest library (pdf).