VOL. 2 PRELIMINARY UNEDITED TRANSCRIPT HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY FOR THE PERIOD: 10:00 A.M. - 1:00 P.M. FRIDAY, MAY 13, 1983 NO. 40

May 13,1983 The House met at 10:00 am. Mr. Speaker in the Chair. MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): Tape No. 2101 Order, please! STATEMENTS BY MINISTERS MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of ah-1 Fisheries. MR.MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, I wish to · announce that as of Monday, May 16, the provincial Department of Fisheries will have fully operational its inshore fish distribution programme to deal with possible glut situations in the upcoming inshore fishing season.

These distribution/information offices , at least two of them, opened two weeks ago in Port aux Basques and Port Saunders to coincide with the opening of the inshore fishing season in that part of the Province. And the other offices will be opening on Monday of next week at Gander, at Bonavista , Harbour Grace , Marystown and St. John's. These offices will remain in operation until mid-August or until the end of the inshore fishing season in each reaion. The fish distribution/ information offices will serve to help to alleviate, Mr.

Speaker - the han. gentleman can joke all he wishes - help to alleviate a fish glut situation which is usually a very serious problem in different parts of the Province every year and especially during the codtrap _ fishery by assisting in the movement and distribution of fish from places where there is an excess to places or locations of plants where there is a shortage of fish. This will prevent , Mr. Speaker, income losses to both fishermen and to processors. 4405

May 13,1983 Tape No. 2101 ah -2 MR.MORGAN: These offices will remain open from 9:00 in the morning until 5:00 every day, six days a week,Monday to Saturday and ,will make daily contact with local processors and determine both the extent of the inshore codtrap fishery, glut situations - SOME HON. ~!EMBERS : Oh, oh ! MR. MORGAN: Mr • Speaker, could I have the protection of the Chair while I am naking my Ministerial Staterrent? MR.SPEAKER (Avlward ): Order, please ! MR.MORGAN: Thank you, Mr • Speaker ·. Now , Mr.

Speaker, these offices will also make contact each day with regional district offices and the various fishermen 's committees and the .various plants in each of the regions where these offices will operate. 44 Q6

May 13, 1983 Tape 2102 EC - 1 MR. MORGAN: As an example of the-importance of this kind of a programme, last year the same kind of a system was successful in the distribution of over two million pounds of fish, in fact, 2.2 million pounds of fish, during the codtrap season. They were successful in the distribution of that much fish in certain areas. Mr. Speaker, the codtrap glut, as it occurs every year, we want to make sure that all of us are working together. So based on that, we formed a committee involving the federal government, the provincial government, the Fishermen's Union and the Fish Trades Association.

That committee is presently in place. It is holding meetings and will be holding a meeting, in fact, again next week. And if we cannot find sufficient processors to accommodate the markets for fishermen, we will not see a situation where fishermen will have to dump their fish. We have to make every effort to prevent a situation where fishermen have to dump their fish during the codtrap season. So we may have to resort, Mr. Speaker, to over-the-side sales to foreign fishing vessels, but th~t is the last resort.

Hopefully we can, through this kind of a programme, be able to arrange to have fish processed as it is caught by the fishenren in different plants' onshore facilities. However, if the onshore facilities are not there and cannot accommodate the fishermen, the Newfoundland Government will support any licences to be issued by the federal Minister of Fisheries - (Mr. De Bane) to the union or the Saltfish Corporation to put in place foreign fishing vessels to purchase fish directly, over-the­ side sales, as they call it, from the fishermen. 4407

May 13, 1983 Tape 2102 EC -2 MR. MORGAN: So, Mr. Speaker, this is a very important issue at the commencement of the inshore fishing season. We are hoping that the Newfoundland Government's initiative on these kinds of offices 'funded totally by the Newfoundland Government, will help to alleviate the situation. We are counting on the support of the Fishermen' s Onion and the fe~deral Department of Fisheries and the Fish Trades, the companies themselves, and I will be pursing this matter further, in fact, in discussions and meetings with Mr. De Bane and his officials in Ottawa on Monday coming. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker. 4408

May 13, 1983 Tape No, 2103 MJ" '"' 1 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR. TULK: The hon, the member for Fogo. Mr. Speaker, let me first of all thank the Minister of Fisheries (Hr. Morgan) fo't' having the courtesy to give me his statement. lt does not always happen 1 from that side of the House , Mr. Speaker, what the minister is really telling us this morning is that this year we can look forward to the same kind of situation that we had last year in the Province and we know what that was, ~r. Speaker.

We can remember two or three days in this House when it was clear that the distribution desks that the minister had set up around the Province were just simply not working. We saw fishermen las ·t year, Mr, Speaker, unable to sell their catch, their harvest, we saw fish dumped and that was at a time, Mr. Speaker, when incomes were declining. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is worthy of note that what the minister is saying in this statement is that it wi.ll only help alleviate the situation, Mr.

Speaker, we have known in this Province for years about the cod glut, the fish glut, in this Province that occurs and what this indicates again this year is that the minister has progressed no further in planning in his department than he did year. He is living on hope, It is band-aid treatment. Now, Mr, Speaker, what will happen this year when the glut:occurs? Let me make a prediction. MR. MORGAN: We are not responsible for that. MR. TULK: The distribution _is supposed to be yours-, the processing is- your responsibility. MR. MORGAN: It is a harvesting problem, MR.

TULK: It is not a harvesting problem, When the fish are brought in you cannot handle it, that is the real key. 4409

t-1ay 13, 1983 l.ffi. SPEAKER (Aylward) : J.IR . TULK : Tape No . 2103 MJ - 2 Order, please! O~der, please! Let me make a prediction, Mr. Speaker. We will see the same situation if the fish is there this year 1 if the harvesting is done this year ,we will see the same kind of situation in processing as we are seeing this year. One of the questions that the minister should - MR. MORGAN : A point of order, Mr . Speaker . MR . SPEAKER : A point of order, the hon. the Minister of Fisheries. !>1.R. MORGAN : Mr.

Speaker, under the rules of the House when a minister makes a statement the Opposition has the right to respond but not debate the content of the statement. No,.,, Mr. Speaker, the member is debating the content of the statement I made this morning . MR. NEARY : To that point of order , Mr . Speaker. 450 0

May 13, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward).: Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Tape 2104 PK - 1 To that point of"order, the hon. Mr. Speaker, I submit that is not·a point Of order, My hon. colleague is not debating. The whole trouble with the minister is, Mr. Speaker, he treats everything as a joke. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, it is a fact that the hon. memberin replying to a statement has to make comments on the statement. elapsed. MR. TULK: MR. HODDER: MR. SPEAKER: member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: The hon. member's time now has I will get back to it. On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

A point of order, the hon. Mr. Speaker, at the present time there are hardly any ministers in the front benches. The Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (~r. Power), Development (Mr. Windsor), Transportation CMr. Dawe), Communicatio~s (Mr. Doyle), the House Leader (~.Marshall), the Justice Minister (Mr. Ottenheimerl, the Minister of Social Services (.Mr. Hickey} and the Premier are missing. Mr. Speaker, how are we expected to carr7 on a Question Period or anything else in this House? Besides that, Mr. Speaker, I know hon. members .want to get out of the House and close it up as quickly as they can , Mr.

Speaker. SOME RON. MEMBERS ; Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER; MR. HODDER: Order, please! But at least they have the obligation to be in this House when it is open. - - - MR. NEARY: Right on! Hear, hear! They cannot wait to get it closed down. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. 4501

May 13, 1983 MR. SPEAKER: (Aylward) : hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Tape 2104 PK - 2 To that point of order, the Mr. Speaker, all hon. members of the House know it is quite improper to comment on whether a member is in the House or not. It is quite improper. It is quite out of order itself. And in aay case the ministers wno are not here have very legitimate reasons for being elsewhere and they will be back just as soon as circumstances permit. MR. NEARY: order. MR. SPEAKER: hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, to that point of To that point of order, the Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman should remember that practically this whole session remarks were made from the benches there opposite about the attendance of the members of the Opposition. Now, Mr. Speaker, it is not up to us to keep a quorum in this House. It is up to the government. And, Mr. Speaker, it is virtually impossible to get the people's business done properly with so many ministers absent on a daily basis. This is not the only day, Mr.

Speaker, Everyday for the last several weeks we have had eight and nine and ten ministers missing at the beginning of the session, when they should be here prepared to answer questions during the Oral Question Period. How can 4502

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2105 SD - 1 MR. NEARY: we plan our strate·gy as an Opposition, ~r. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. NEARY: How can we come into this House prepared to ask questions of th .e Premier, the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer), the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall)~ ·the Minister of Social Services (Mr. Hickey) and the Minister of Development (~r. Windsor} if they are not in their seats, Mr. Speaker? So justice is not being done to the people's business, Mr. Speaker. It is shameful. The attendance of ministers in this House is shameful.

Every day after the Question Period the Premier scoots down to his office, ~s out of the House. The trouble is, Mr. Speaker, they cannot wait to get the House of Assembly closed. It is too hot for them here, the contempt they have for the House and disregard they have for the people~s House, Mr. Speaker, is shameful. We may a~ well tell hon. gentlemen now that whatever parliamentary devices that we can use there is no way they are going to get this House closed without producing plans to deal with the real problems that are confronting the ordinary people in this Province - MR.

SIMMS: To the point of order, .l:<lr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: the crisis in the fishery and so forth, Mr. Speaker, and in the hospitals and so forth. MR. SPEAKER Order, please! To that point of order, the han. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, the han. Leader of the Opposition (.Mr. Nearyl who purports to be a veteran of this House - MR. TULK: And he is. 4503

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2105 so -2 MR. SIMMS: and suggests that he has all the knowlegde of all the parliamentary rules and procedures - MR. TULK: MR. SIMMS: he does not have Which he does. -daily gets up and shows that those kinds of qualifications because he knows full well that the point that has been raised by his colleague, the Opposition House Leader (Mr. Hodder), is not a point of order. A point of order has to be raised with respect to a breach of privilege of the House or a breach of proceedings or a breach of the rules.

And members attendence in the House· is not considered to be a breach of the rules ~nd the han. member should know that. I submit, Mr. Speaker, that all the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is attempting to do is score some cheap political points. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : is no point of order. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. NEA:.RY : Mr. Speaker. MR. SIMMS: MR. SPEAKER: Hear, hear. Order, please! To that point of order, there Hear, hear. A point of information th.en, There is no such thing. Order, please! There is no such rule in our Standing Orders as a point of information. MR. NEARY: MR.

SPEAKER: A point of order then, Mr. Spea~er - Another point of order, the han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: -if I cannot raise a point of information. Would one of the spokesmen and we saw two that time -the Minister of Finance (Dr, Collinsl and we saw the former Speaker (Mr. Simms}, the expert on the rules, would one of 4504

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2106 NM ."'"- 1 MR. NEARY: these gentlemen tell us if the Premier and the ministers will be taking their seats before h 1 . . ? we get to t e Ora Questlon Perlod. MR. SPEAXER (Aylward) : To that point of order, the han. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, once again that is not a legitimate point of order and it only points out that the Opposition opposite, and·particularly the House Leader (Mr. Hodder), which is rather strange, and the Leader of the Opposition only want to waste the time of this House. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please!

To that point of order, I rule there is no point of order again. Before we continue it gives me great pleasure to welcome to the House of Assembly fifty-five students and three teachers, Morris Lewis, Leslie Furlong, and Tom Maddox, Grades IV, V and VI students from St. Peter's and St. Paul's Elementary in King's Cove, Bonavista Bay. SOME RON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! . MR. SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr.

Speaker, today,I am very pleased to be able to provide han. members with some additional infonnation cncerning different aspects of wildlife management and wildlife protection in this Province. Before doing so,I would like tq, Mr. Speaker, point out that this government recognizes the importance that big game has when enhancing the quality of life for our people. Newfoundland and Labrador can boast of big game herds which are comparable to any in North America; and the hunting opportunities offered to our reidents are also second to none.

Annually, over 20,000 hunters are given the opportunity to hunt moose or caribou, and as I have stated 4505

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2106 NM - 2 MR. SIMMS: on numerous occasions, over 50 per cent of them are successful. Few other places, Mr. Speaker, in North America offer big game hunters such a high rate of success. During the past year, Mr. Speaker, the Wildlife Division of my department has been quite active in reviewing and implementing new policy which relates to wildlife management and wildlife protection.

And as the minister responsible for wildlife in the ?rovince I am certainly aware of the importance of keeping the public informed; and also of educating our young pe9pie about their wildlife heritage, and so I am proud of the fact that my department presently has an education programme that is progressing in these areas. Its primary goal is to have wildlife education integrated with the curriculum of our formal school systems, and I firmly believe that the long term future of our wildlife resources can only be assured by helping to shape the knowledge, attitudes and behaviour o.f our young people.

To that end, our hunter education programme underwent an inte~_sive revitalization, Mr~ :_speaker, during 19 82 and we have recently produced 4506

:.. May 13, 1983 Tape 2107 MR. SIMMS: a Newfoundland and Labrador hunter education manual which will be used in our new course programme for hunters and potential hunters beginning 1983. EC - 1 During the corning months, we will be recruiting and training new volunteer instructors, and, as well, retraining existing instructors by means of· a series of workshops to be held throughout the Province. The long-term target for this programme is to train three thousand plus people by 1985. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR.

SIMMS: I should also note,that the course and supplementary material is offered at no charge to our participants, and while not playing down firearms use, the course has not been extended from twelve hours to eighteen hours, and now emphasizes wildlife management and hunter ethics. The entire programme has been renamed Hunter Education rather than Hunter Safety to reflect its broadened approach. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. SIMMS: As a graduate of that programme, along with my colleague and friend from Torngat Mountains (Mr.

Warren), the Opposition critic, we would certainly, I know, want to encourage people to undertake that programme. Mr. Speaker, my departrnenthas also been making an all-out attach on poaching which is having a serious impact on both moose and caribou populations in some areas of the Province. On December 3rd, this government implemented a system for the imposition of minimum fines resulting from convictions of big game violations that are considerably more severe than ever before. 45C7

May 13, 1983 Tape 2107 EC - 2 MR. SIMMS: There is also considerable evidence that there is growing public support for our campaign against poaching. This is shown by an increase in the number of calls and letters from people reporting such activities. I believe this to be a result of the heightened concern of people who realize that poaching will be greatly reduced if it becomes socially unacceptable and that if this change does not occur, then our rich wildlife heritage will obviously quickly disappear. During the past, Mr.

Speaker, it has never been very easy for a citizen to report violations, so this year a twenty-four hour telephone hotline will be established to test its effectiveness. The project has two goals, first o:f all, to convict poachers, and secondly, to prevent poachers from operating. The first goal is self­ evident, Mr. Speaker, but the second is less .so. Participants - all big game licencees and others who choose to opt in the programme - will be issued bumper stickers that will promote the programme. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: The hoped-for result of this programme, Mr.

Speaker, is that the poachers' activities will be somewhat inhibited if they are aware that a neighbour might report them. 4508

May 13,1983 Tape No. 2108 ah-1 MR. SIMMS: This kind of project has been implemented successfully in other areas, and I have little doubt that it will be successful in Newfoundland and Labrador as well. Mr. Speaker, a few short months ago,I announced several new initiatives which were designed to increase the efficiency and the effectiveness of our wildlife programmes. One initiative, of course, that was instituted was the $5.00 non-refundable big game application fee.

Because we werer able to identify this area of new revenue,we will now be able to offset the cost of the educational programs such as the ones I just referred to, and, as well, will enable the wildlife division to engage 3 new protection officers during the current fiscal year. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: This revenue has helped us to greatly improve the computer licence draw system, Mr.

Speaker, and I· am now in a position to announce today that this year's licence draw will be completed by Sunday, May 15,1983 and notices to applicants advising of their succes$ or otherwise should be in th~ mail by next Friday, May 20,1983. Mr. Speaker, this is two months earlier than in previous years,and this earlier date will now allow hunters more lead time to

schedule holidays and, in addition, will assist them generally in preparing for their trips. As all big game licence applications have not yet been key-punched , Mr. Speaker, by computer services we do not have the exact number of valid applications received at this point. However, I have been advised by my officials that we have received in excess of 26,000 applications for big game licences. This is comparable to the number of applications received 4509

May 13,1983 Tape No. 2108 ah-2 MR. SIMMS: in past years. In fact, if we look at the numbers of applications received in each year since 1979, the number of applications received this year is well above ·average. In 1979, for example, there were 20,971, in 1980 22,090, in 1981 25,385 and in 1982 26,564, So given these figures,it is fair to say that big game hunters were not deterred in any way from applying for big game licences. SOME HON.MEMBERS: Hear, hear! MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, for 1983, · the moose licence quota has been set at 9,985 animals, and the caribou licence quota has been set at 1,360 animals.

In total 11,345 big game licences will be issued in 1983. This figure also compares favourably with figures from past years. For example, last year in 1982 there were 11,305 big game licences issued. This year's quota obviously shows an net increase of 40 • The programs that I have referred to, Mr. Speaker, and the figures that I have just presented , show clearly that this government is pursuing an effective wildlife policy.

And I can assure this House, the members of this House, and the people of the Province that in the years ahead we will continue to make every eft"ort to improve and enhance wildlife management in this Province. Because .the quality of our wildlife heritage relies on the actions that we take today, and this government, Mr. Speaker, is committed to the principle of sound wildlife management and sound wildlife protection. SOME ' HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 45~0

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2109 MJ - 1 HR. SPEAKER (Avlward) : The hon. the member for Torngat Mountains. MR. WARREN: In response to the Ministerial Statement let me say in the beginning that I think we have to thank the late - Ray Simmons and my hon. colleague from Bellevue (Mr. Callan) who brought it to the attention of the department several years ago that there should be an education process instituted in the department. I think the late Ray Simmons is the person that is responsible for the minister bringing in this statement today. Also, Hr.

Speaker, I have to congratulate the minister in holding to his commitment. At least now the successful hunters will have the opportunity to set up their vacation time around their hunting. ;his is a commitment that the minister endeavoured to carry out since last year and I am quite pleased'that the minister has done so. The minister was a little bit contradictory in his statement. However, Hr. Speaker, he said that the education programme is at no cost to the hunters and a page later he says this new five dollar - - -- ---- - -- . -- application fee will help pay for the education program. Now, Mr.

Speaker, this year we have seen the department increase this fee to five dollar and it is offsetting - MR. SIMMS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: A point of order, the han. the Mini.ster of Culture, Recreation and youth. MR. SIMMS: Because I do not want the han. member to carried away. What I said was the hunter education training programme and retraining programme will be of no cost to the participants who will be undertaking the 45~1

~lay 13, 1983 Tape No. 2109 MJ - 2 MR . SIMMS: the hunter education training progranune .- £ am su~e the hon . member toTOuld want to have that fact clarified. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : To that point of order, there is no point of order .it is a point of clarification . The hon . the member for Torngat Mountains . MR . WARREN : Mr . Speaker, it still boils down to the fact that there is an extra five dollars added on to the successful and the unsuccessful applicants. Another thing, Mr .

Speaker , I should remind the hon . minister that we are the province Newfoundland and Labrador and I am surprised that the minister did not include in his ~linisterial Statement the hunting season in Labrador . Is the minister saying 'Okay, I will come in some other time and make a statement about the hunting season in Labrad<;>r .' It is part of Newfoundland . I will remind the minister and the peop le up there would like to set their holidays around the hl.U'lting season also.So the minister should realize that we are the Province of Newfoundland and Labrador not ju~t the Province of Newfom1dland. 45 i2

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2110 SD - 1 MR. WARREN: Mr. Speaker, the minister is asking for volunteers throughout the Province and I am sure there are many people in this Province who would volunteer to assist the minister. However, I do not see the rationale why there are X number of wildlife officers laid off each year. I think that the minister should make sure that the forty-eight wildlife officers are employed on a year-round basis. Furthermore, if the minister wants to carry out a good programme for the protection of wildlife, I believe that there should be more than forty-eight or fifty wildlife officers.

We have a vast area of unprotected land and poachers are encouraged because wildlife officers are just not available. Each wildlife officer has territory to cover and just cannot apprehend people everywhere. I suggest to the minister that in his next budget he should try to encourage the Finance Minister (Dr. Collins) to ensure that there will be more wi~dlife officers to protect the wildlife of this Province. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 45i3

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2110 SD - 2 ORAL QUESTIONS MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR. NEARY: The hon. Leader of the Opposition.c Mr. Speaker, in the absence of the Premier, the President of the Council (Mr. Marshall), the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ottenheimer) , I have to get down to the Minister of ~inance (Dr. Collins),and that is getting pretty low, Mr. Speaker, in this hon. House. I want to ask a few questions about Summer employment in various government departments and in Crown corporations.

Would the hon. gentleman tell the House if there will be an increase or a decrease in the number of people, students and what have you, who will be hired for Summer employment in government departments and in Crown corporations? Has the government done any ~ind of analysis to see if it will be up or down this year? MR. SPEAKER: DR. COLLINS: The hon. Minister of Finance. Mr. Speaker, I am glad to give what information is readily available at this time. I am sorry that all members of the Opposition are not present to hear the information. I notice the member for the Strait of Belle Isle (Mr.

Roberts} is not present and several other members opposite. Nevertheless, at this time of the year the departments of government endeavour to make employment available,particularly to university students but also to some high school students. Obviously the departments have more positions available for university students than the others. At the present time those to be employed in each department number a total of about 500 and the amount expended for that will be somewhere over one million dollars. MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. 45i4 Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. Supplementary, the hon.

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2110 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I wonaer would the hon. gentleman also indicate if he has the figures for Crown corporations? I presume the 500 are just for 45i5

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2111 NM -1 MR. NEARY: various government departments, Is that 500 an increase or a decrease over the number hired last year? MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The han. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINs·: Mr. Speaker, the short answer to the first part of the question is no, I do not have the numbers for the Crown corporations. Crown corporations by their very nature operate at arms length from government itself. They have the discretio~ which they exercise, as to the number of student positions they make available.

I am sure that, within their budgetary limits, they do the best they can because all departments of government, and all Crown corporations are conscious of the need and the desirability of giving Summer employment to the students, especially the university students in this Province. MR. SPEA:KER: The hen. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, so the total that we can expect to see hired this year by various government department is 500, is that what the hon. geri:bleman is saying? 500? DR. COLLINS: That was the figure I gave. MR.

NEARY: As far as he knows now, with the figures given to him just now by the Minister of Labour and.Manpower (Mr. Dinn},500 will be hired in various government departments this year, and the hen. gentleman does not have the figures for Crown corporations .• Let me ask the han. gentleman this ques.tion: What procedure, what criteria, what process will be used to hire these 500? MR. SPEAKER: The hen. Minister of Finance. 45i6

May 13, 198 3 Tap e No. 2111 NM - 2 DR. COL LINS : Mr . Speake r, I am not exactl y sure where the ho n. Lead er o f th e Op pos itio n (.Mr . Neary} is movin g wit h. hL s qu est ions, but just to make sure MR. NEA RY: No, but you suspect. DR. COL LIN S : - just to make sure that it is understood now the procedure works, all permanent employment in government departments, with very rare exceptions, I cannot at the moment think of an exception, so I am going to say for all practical purposes, 100 per cent of permanent .. employment in government service is done through the Public Service Commission.

In other words,the applicants do not approach departments themselves for permanent employment, They approach the Public Service Conun.ission, the Public ,·--t; ·'" Service Commission vets their applications, often in vetting them does ask for a representation from the department concerned, but in actual fact the final 45~7

May 13,1983 Tape 2112 PK - 1 DR. COLLINS: selection of a short list is made by the Public Service Commission, that is for permanent employment. And that was a reform that was brought in by a previous administration of the type that is presently in place MR. NEARY: We are talking about Summer employment. SOME HON. MEMBERS: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward}: DR. COLLINS: SOME HON. MEMBERS: DR. COLLINS: Oh, oh! Order, please! -in other words,a P.C. adrninistrati Hear, hear! Previous to that great reform, I think there was a very haphazard manner in giving permanent employment in the Public Service.

Now in terms of temporary employment that procedure is not used, because it would be very cumbersome, it would delay the process, it would be to neither government's best interest and certainly not to the student's best interest to have to go through a rather cumbersome but nevertheless necessary procedure that is used for permanent employment.

So for temporary employment,and temporary employment very largely refers to Summer employment - not exclusively, but very largerly refers to Summer employment­ the applications are made to the departments themselves and the permanent head of the department, that is, the Deputy Minister,makes the final decision on whether he accepts or whether he rejects the applications for particular temporary employment. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I am not sure if I understood the hon. gentleman correctly, but I just want to get him on the record again.

Did the hon. gentleman say 45i8

May 13, 1983 Tape 2112 PK - 2 MR . NEARY: it is the Deputy Minister who mak es the selection of people for Summer employment, students and the like? Can the hon .. gent leman confirm that it is the Deputy Minister without any consultation at all with the mi nister Hho makes these appointments? AN RON . MEt-1BER : No, no way . MR. WARREN: No way, eh? MR . NEARY : Well 1 that is what the minister said . MR. SPEAKER (Mr . Aylward) : The hon. Minister of Finance . OR. COLLINS: Mr .

Speaker , the Deputy Ministers of the Government of Newfoundland are an extremely experienced, extremely responsible, extremely conscientious bunch of people. They do not carry out their duties witho~t consultation. The vast majority of Deputy Mir~sters have very large staffs underneath them . They have collea gues of a similiar status to themselves and they 45i9

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2113 HJ - 1 DR. COLLINS: have elected members, i.e., ministers in the departments. The Deputy Ministers, in carrying out their duties conscientiously and with responsibility1 consult widely before coming to any but the most routine decisions. But I would emphasize that the Deputy Minister is the permanent administrative head of government departments and they make final decisions on such things as employment conditions and work and so on and so forth, that is within the collective bargaining arrangements that are reached with NAPE and within the general policies of government, MR.

NEARY: A supplementary, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The han. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary. MR. NEARY: If the hon. gentleman wants to know where my questioning is leading1he should ask the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (~fr, Power) and the Minister of Public Works U.lr. Young) 1 who seem to be the big culprits on that side of the House when it comes to hiring. MR. HODDER: Or the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Hr. Sinuns). MR. NEARY: The Min,i.ster of C-ulture, ;Recreation and Youth is also a culprit? MR. HODDER: Oh, yes, The worst. HR. NEAR,Y: Mr.

Speaker, we argued that there is too much MR. YOUNG: MR, SPEAKER: A point of order, Mr. Speaker, A point of order, the hon, the Minister of Public Works, MR. YOUNG: I wish to inform the hon. member that the statement he made just now is untrue. MR.. HODDER: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker, MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the member for Port au Port. 4520

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2113 MJ - 2 MR. HODDER: Mr. Speake~, the ministers are almost open about it, the y boast about the fact that they hire groups of students from their district. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, I had a minister who boasted to me that he had thirty hired from his district. MR. YOUNG: Further to that point of order, Hr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : To that point of order, the hon. the Hinister of Public Works. MR. YOUNG: Mr. S?eaker, is the son of one of the hon. members on the other side from my district? It is done by our Payroll Account.

Probably I do have some there and why should I not? MR . SPEAKER: Order,· please! To that point of order, I rule that there is merely difference of opinion between two hon. members. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR . NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary to the hon. minister. Would it not be better for the government to lay down some new ground rules, new procedures for hiring Summer employment, Mr. Speaker? SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Order, please! MR.

NEARY: The existing system is wide open for abuse and it is not what you know 1 it is who you know if you get on for the summer in one of the government departments. Now, Mr. Speaker, that is morally wrong and it should be changed, Mr. Speaker, beca~se it discriminates against the majority of Newfoundlanders. 4521

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2113 MJ - 3 MR. NEARY: People should be hired either on a first come,firstserved basis or they should be hired on their qualifications. Before they get into filling the majority of these 500 Summer employment positions, would the hon. gentleman undertake to bring in for the approval · of the House new ground rules so that ministers will never again be able to boast that they can do things that we cannot do?

They ·can hire their constituents, they can look after their political friends and that sort of thing by hiring .their sons and daughters for Summer employment,or somelawyer's son or somedoctor's son, Mr. Speaker, and the Departme~t of Education is one of the big culprits too by the way. Mr. Speaker, in all fairness, and to see that justice is doneor at least that . justice appears to be done - DR. COLLINS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (A ylw ard): A point of order, the hon. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) said,'I am going to ask a supplementary question,' In asking supplementary questions a

preamble is not necessary 1 as the Standing Orders say 1 and he has now been speaking for approximately .two minutes before getting into and terminating and finishing and completing a supplementary question. 4522

.... May 13, 1983 Tape 2114 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (Avlward) : To that point of order, the hon. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: Mr. Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) should have leave of the House to continue on as long as he wants because he is bringing up a fact here which is a thorn in the side of every Newfoundland young person who is applying for a job. We have record unemployment in this Province, Mr. Speaker - SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! MR. HODDER: - yet the Minister of Education (Ms Verge), the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr.

Simms), the Minister of Forest Resources and Lands (Mr. Power) and all the other ministers are hiring young people into their departments, Mr. Speaker, the ones that they want. MR. MORGAN: Sit down, boy! DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, further to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! Further to that point of order, the han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, now that is a disgraceful sort of exhibition we have just see~. The han. the Opposition House Leader (Mr.

Hodder) rose,purportedly to speak on a point of order,and he abused the privileges of this House by then going into other subject matter and, in actual fact, getting into debate on a matter having nothing to do with the point of order that was raised. I think that that is again an example of what I said earlier in the morning, that is that the Opposition just wants to waste the time of the House. MR. NEARY: That is terrible! That is terrible! 4523

May 13, 1983 Tape 2114 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : To that point of order, I rule that there is a valid point. The hon. the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) was asking a supplementary question and there was some

preamble . MR. NEARY: Well, I will get straight to the question then, Mr. Speaker . MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition. lffi. NEARY: Does the han. gentleman feel that it is time to get rid of these archaic procedures and rules and regulations with regard to Summer employment? And also, would it not be a protection for the ministers, who can now be accused of abusing their positions,for them to have these people either processed through the Public Service Commission or through some independent body so that no influence can be brought to bear by the ministers? MR.

SPEAKER: The han. the Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, if the han. the Leader of the Opposition has examples of abuse, he should bring them forward and lay them out so that one can see if what he is talking about is valid or not. But just to scatter-gun, you know, broad statements without any factual back-up to it, you know, is useless. Again, it is just wasting the time of this House. Anyone can make broad statements and suggest things, allude to things without any basis for them.

And not only does it not actually contribute to the business that this House is supposed to be dealing with, but also it certainly does not help the situation with regard to employment. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, a supplementary~ MR. SPEAKER: The han. the Leader of the Opposition, a supplementary question. MR. NEARY: What is the hon. gentleman afraid of then? Is the hon. gentleman afraid to bring in some new 4524

May 13 , 1983 Tape No . 2114 EC-3 MR. NEARY: procedures? Let us assume the bon . gentleman is correct, and he is not, because that system of hiring for Summer employment is the most abused in thi s Province; as I said earlier, it is not what you know, it is who you know whether you get on wi th the government for the Sununer . The Minister of Public Works (Mr . Young} should knowthat . The Minister of Public Works is the biggest culprit of all , and the Minis ter of Education 4525

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2115 MR. NEARY: (Ms. Verge), the Minister of Public Works (Mr. Young) ,and the Minister of Recreation, Culture and Youth (Mr. Simms), Mr. Speaker. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! MR. NEARY: So, Mr. Speaker, if the han. NM- 1 gentleman is not afraid, if the administration are not afraid, why do they not bring in rules and regulations . that will,make it fair foreverybody? What is fair for one is fair for all. Make it fair for everybody. MR. HODDER: And let us have a list of who is hired. MR. NEARY: Yes, Mr.

Speaker, and lay the list on the table of this House. And if the hon. gentleman does not do that, and the administration do not do it, then obviously, Mr. Speaker, they have something to hide. So why would the han. gentleman not ag.ree? I mean fair is fair. All we are asking for is justice. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, this must be the longest supplementary question on record . MR. NEARY: Why would the han. gentleman not agree to bring in a set of rules and regulations for hiring Summer employme~t? MR. SPEAKER: of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Order, please! The han. Minister Mr.

Speaker, I do not know if it is the lo~gest supplementary question on record, it must be getting close to it and,of course,it has great length but very little substance. As I mentioned already, Mr. Speaker, the han. Leader of the Opposition is not bringing 4526

.;..·;. May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2115 DR. COLLINS: forward any specific point that one can respond to because he is not giving any precise information. What I will undertake, in the absence of the hen. Leader of the Opposition giving NM - 2 facts, what I will do, and I 'undertake to do this, every deputy minister I come across in the next day or so I will ask him if he is aware of any abuse and I will listen to what he says. I will try to get factual information. Now the han. Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary), if he has factual information he should have brought it forward. But I will do his job for him.

I will speak to every deputy minister, who are ultimately responsible for hiring of temp~rary employees, I will ask every deputy minister I come across is he aware of any abuse. MR. SPEAKER: The han. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, it is really frightening, you know,when you think about the han. gentleman being the Minister of Finance in this Province, it is really, really frightening. Mr. Speaker, obviously the government have no intentions of changing their procedure, they are going to carry on the same old way o~ favouritism.

The whole system is based on favouritism and who you know in government, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! The han. member has a supplementary question. MR. NEARY: It looks to me like they have no intention of changing. Every other province of Canada that I know of has brought in a job creation programme for young people for the Summer. Now we are talking about 500 jobs here, but that is not the kind of a job creation programme that we would expect in this Province for students for this Summer when 4527

May 13,1983 Tape No. 2116 ah-1 MR.NEARY: the situation in the economy is so bad. Could the hon. gentleman tell us if there is anything in this Province similar to what they have in the other nine provinces of Canada in the way of job creation for students for this coming Summer? MR.SPEAKER (AYLWARD): The hon. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, the figure I mentioned,over 500,is an indication that the government is aware of the need to give employment during the Summer to students and we are doing the best we can.

Other measures to improve on what I think is quite a creditable move at the present time within areas directly controlled by government, other moves to expand on that wherever possible are under active consideration. MR. CALLAN: A supplementary. MR.SPEAKER: The han. member for Bellevue. A supplementary question.

MR.CALLAN: Mr. · Speaker, the Minister of Finance (Dr.Collins) in answering earlier said that there was approximately 500 temporary jobs being created at a value of $1 million , I think, to the government, which works out to about $2000 per student, money that they will badly need come the Fall semester at the university especially after what the Minister of Education has done to the loans and grants and student aid system. But let me ask the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr.Simms), of those 500 jobs that are being created,how many of those would be in his ~epartment?

For example, in tRe provincial parks, how many Summer jobs would there -b~?- MR. SPEAKER: The 'han. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. 4528

May 13,1983 Tape No. 2116 ah-2 MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, to my recollection in the Oivision of Parks , in the Division of Historic Resources and all other divisions in my department , I think there is somewhere in the area of 120 to 150 student Summer jobs. MR.CALLAN: A supplementary, Mr.Speaker. A supplementary. The han. MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Mr. Speaker, let me ask would the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (Mr.Sirnms) concur with the Hinister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) that in his department it is the Deputy Minister who has the final say on the placement of these students in various provincial parks? Is it the Deputy or is it he himself who has the final say? MR.SPEAKER: The han. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I think what the Minister of Finance was saying is that the administrative head of the department, the permanent head of the department, who is the Deputy Ministe~ approves these Summer positions. I did not say he selects them, he approves these Summer selections.

But in our case,for example, in our department we consider and accept applications , letters, telephone calls, representations from MHAs, from community leaders, teachers and all sorts of people. We consider everybody's application as seriously as we can,realizing , of course, that obviously 4529 - • I

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2117 MR. SIMMS: there are not nearly the number of jobs available to fill all the applicants' desires. In fact, in my department this year I think we have something like 1,000 applications for approximately 120 to 150 jobs. We also consider qualifications of the students on their application forms. In areas where swimming is required, for example, we look for water safety courses, first aid courses and whatever. Generally speaking, students' qualifications are pretty well similar , obviously, because they have not had time enough to garner a great deal of experience.

So most of their applications and qualificatins are generaly fairly similar. Also 1 I might point out SD -1 in cases of parks in particular1 students who were employed the previous year are generally called for re­ employment b~cause of the experience they have gained and that experience, of course, is critical to proper manag_ement and operation of the park's system throughout the Province. So that is basically the way it is dealt with in our Parks Division. MR. CALLAN: Supplementary, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward}: member for Bellevue. MR. CALLAN: Supplementary, the hon. Mr.

Speaker, let me ask the Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth (~r. Simms! would he be prepared to table in this House of Assembly a list of the successful applicants in the various parks when they have been finalized? I assume if it is not finished now it should be finished in a day or so. Would the minister be prepared to table in this House a list of the successful applicants for the various parks? There are not that many around the Province,-If the 45JO

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2117 SD-2 MR. CALLAN: minister thinks that is too much trouble, perhaps he will provide me with a list of the successful applicants in at least Jack's Pond and Bellevue Beach Parks in the district of Bellvue? Is the minister prepared to do that? MR. SPEAKER (AYLWARD) : The han. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, I will take that request under advisement. I am not aware of what might preclude me from doing it. But since he has raised the question, he is obviously aware that he has made represe~tation, I think maybe he is the one member on that side who has made a representation to me for a Summer student job,

whereas members on this side are consistently harrassing me on behalf of their constituents. MR. CALLAN: MR. SIMMS: And they are the successful ones, too. But let me just tell him, because he did raise it with me a day or two ago, I did take the opportunity to check. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. SPEA.l(ER: MR. NEARY: cat out of the bag. MR. SPEAKER: MR. SIMMS: What was the cat? MR. CALLAN: Oh, oh! Order, please! Now you have just let the Order, please! What was the big surprise? Why should they be talking to you? They should talk to your deputy. MR. SIMMS: Well, you tell me now what I have done? Han. members do not know what they are talking about as usual. 45J1

May 13, 1983 Tape 2118 PK - 1 MR. SIMMS: Mr. Speaker, tha member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) raised the matter with me a couple of days ago , and I undertook - SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! The hon. Minister of Culture, Recreation and Youth. MR. SIMMS: Mr.

Speaker, with respect to the member for Bellevue's question about undertaking to provide him with the names of people who are workin·g in the parks in his area, because he mentioned it to me a day or so ago or a couple of days ago, I did undertake to check yesterday to see in Bellevue Beach Park in particular,which I am aware is in his district, the one that he mentioned to me specifically- MR. CALLAN: Jack's Pond. MR.

SIMr·1S: that there are two students employed there at the present time,have been hired for this Summer season, one is from Norman's Cove in his district of Bellevue, the other is from Bellevue in his district of Bellevue. So he will be happy to know that both of the people who are working in Bellevue Beach Park are both constit~ents of his. And I am sure that he is most happy to hear that two constituents from his own district are working in his district in Bellevue Beach Park. MR. CALLAN: What about Jack's Pond? MR. SPEAKER: The hon. member for Eagle River. MR. HISCOCK: A further supplementary, Mr.

Speaker, to the Minister of ;Finance (.Dr. Col.lins). MR. SPEAKER: A further supplementary. MR. HISCOCK: In view of the fact there are abaut 8,000 students at Memorial and about 30,000 high school students, which brings it up to 4 ~,, o...i..JL

May 13, 1983 Tape 2118 PK - 2 MR. HISCOCK: approximately 40,000 7 and unemployed youth between the ages of eighteen and twenty- fivenumber at least another 15,000, so we are talking about 50,000 students and here we are employing 500, which is 1 per cent of the student population , of the young people of this Province. Considering this astounding youth employment, and that other provinces have Summer job creation programmes,will the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) inform the youth of this Province that he will not enact the studentloan increases from $450 to $950 this coming September, and that he will put a freeze on this for one year until the economic climate in this Province picks up? Can the Minister of Finance give our younger people some hope that this administration is going to give them a break? MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The han. Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, I seem to recall that this question,or a question very similarly phrased, has come up a number of times over the last few days, really since the Budget was brought down, I suppose.

The questions were answered fully, in detail, explained and expounded upon by the han. Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) and all info ·rmation that needs to be given on the matter has been set before the hon.members of this House and before the public, because it was reported in the media, and I am sure the students themselves are well aware of it. As a matter of fact , my understanding is that the han. Minister of Education has met with groups of students and she has gone over this matter in great detail.

I believe the students with whom she discussed the matter have said that they had a very satisfactory meeting. 4533

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2119 NM - 1 MR. SP-EAKER (Aylward ·J : Tfie non. Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, I would like to ask a question of the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. Morganl. In view of the fact, Mr. Speaker, that it has now been confirmed in public statements made by various people who were at the Fishery Council of Canada meeting that the han. gentleman did tell a racist, off-colour joke, does the han. gentleman feel now that he owes an apology to the representatives who attended that conference? There is no point in remaining silent or refusing interviews, Mr.

Speaker, the h.on. gentleman does owe the .se people an apology. Could the hon. gentleman inform the House if he has taken any steps to get a list of all the delegates who attended that conference, issue an apology individually to the delegates, and also issue a public apology .'to the people of this Province for the insulting and rude remarks made by the hon. gentleman at that conference? MR. SPEAKER: MR. NEARY: MR. SPEA..UR: MR. NEARY: Any further questions? A supplementary, Mr. Speaker. The han. Leader of the Opposition. Mr.

Speaker, does the hon. gentleman think that he is going to be forgiven by remaining silent and not answering questions in this H.ouse'? Mr. Speaker, I cannot force the han. gentleman to answer my questions,but the han. gentleman obviously, Mr. Speaker, thinks it is going to blow over. Is that what the hon. gentleman feels? Does the han. gentleman feel that if he just sits in his seat there like a dummy that the matter will blow over. Mr. Speaker, the hon. ·-gentleman has done an awful lot of damage to Newfoundland • s reputation in the international business world. And the han. gentleman should,man-fashion, Mr.

Speaker;: if he has any courage at all, the hon. gentleman should apologize to thes.e people and mak~ a public apology. 45J4

May 13, l983 MR. SPEAKEE (Aylward): DR. COLLINS: MR. SPEAKER: Minister of Finance. DR . COLLINS: Tape No. 2119 NM - 2 Order , please ! A point of order, t-lr. Speaker . A point of order, the hon. Mr . Speaker , again the Leader of the Opposition very clearly stated a supplementary question and then he ~rent into a long harangue whi ch did not enli ghten the House in any way, did ~ot bear on an y supplementary question he ma y have had in mind, indeed it hardly bore on the original question . This matter has been beaten to death . It is has been dealt with in this House before in Questi on Period 1 I believe.

The hon . Premier of the Province actually commented on the matter in thi.s Rouse and I believe else-vThere, and there does not seem to be any point in going on with it further . But anyw ·ay 1 Mr . Speaker 1 the hen. Leader of the Opposition (Mr . Neary) is clearly not abiding by the rules by going into a long harangue in terms of supplementary questi.ons. 45J 5

May 13, 1983 Tape 2120 EC - 1 MR. HODDER: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : To that point of order, the han. the member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: The Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) has every right in this world toask the Minister of Fisheries (Mr~ Morgan) questions as long as he wants to in a Question Period, but the minister has the right to refuse. But the refusal of the minister, Mr. Speaker, in this case, says much more than if he had answered. MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, to that point of order. MR. SPEAKER: To that ~oint of order, the han. the Minister of Fisheries. MR.

MORGAN: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman who just sat down is right. The minister of any portfolio has the right to say no or refuse to answer any question, and that is the right of members of the House of Assembly. Mr. Speaker, any points I have to make on fisheries I will be making today on all aspects when I speak in the Budget Debate. MR. NEARY: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, the hon. the Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr.

Speaker, the hon. gentleman must remember, when the hon. gentleman spoke down at that conference, he was speaking for the government, he was speaking as a Queen's minister, he was addressing that group as a representative of the administration and of the people of this Province. The han. gentleman was there as the Queen's representative. Now, Mr. Speaker, does the han. gentleman think in fair play, in British justice, that the hon. gentleman should remain silent and hope that this matter will blow over rather than issue a public apology to these people? 4536

May 13, 1983 Tape 2120 EC - 2 MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order, please! To ,that point of order, I rule that in the supplementary question, the hon. the Leader of . the Opposition (Mr. Neary) took some time, but he did ask several questions rather than making a

preamble. I rule there is no point of order. I have to inform the House now that the time for Question Period has expired. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS FOR WHICH NOTICE HAS BEEN GIVEN MR. GOUDIE: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The hon. the Minister of Rural, Agricultural and Northern Development. MR. GOUDIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. In the absence of the Premier, I want to table some information relating to a question asked by the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren), I think, a week ago today, perhaps a week ago yesterday, relating to the Voisey Bay fish camp.

The information as I understand 1 that he requested, since it is rather brief, I will read into the record. This is a copy of a letter. He suggested, by the way, that our department had not contacted the Native groups to offer the fish camp to these particular groups. And on the 4th of November, 1980, I have a copy of the letter here addressed to Ms Fran Macintosh from Fred Anderson, who is a Regional Development specialist with my department, we wrote 45J7

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2121 MJ - 1 MR. GOUDIE: indicating to them that, 'We are now formally requesting advice from your association as to the future of this camp,but we are interested in any suggestions you may have regarding the disposal of the lodge.' Mr. Speaker, since 1980 there h~s been no response to that letter from Ms. Macintosh or anyone else.

And in relation to the operating budget for the fish camp for 1982 the total expenditure was $17,498.27, broken down into wages - and there are three people who are employed there~ one, a watchman~ and if groups go in such as they did last year on two occasions then a cook is hired for that particular period, for an hour, a day or a. week whatever it is; and on some occasions we h~ve to have some bookkeeping work done so when that is necess~ry that person is hired on a part time basis as well - repairs · and maintenace, supplies, fuel, boat rental, transportation, purchase battery charger, sundry expenses and there was a bank balance at the end of that year of $702.92.

However, since that time there has been a further expenditure of $780 and that amount has been paid. MR. MORGAN: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : MR. MORGAN: Mr. Speaker. The han. the Minister of Fisheries. Mr. Speaker, just to show when reasonable sensible questions are asked of this portfolio the answers are always forthcoming, Mr.

Speaker, with regards to a Question No. 35 on Order Paper of March 17, 1983 asked by the member for Fogo (Mr, Tulk) with reference to any cost of renovations to the minister's offices in the fiscal years 1979, 1980, 1981 and 1982 the answer to that question; there were no renovations made to the offices of the Minister of Fisheries during any of these years. MR. NEARY: v7hat a joke. MR. 1-10RGAN: Why ask the question if it is a joke? 4538

May 13, 1983 MR . MOR GAN : do no t want them. MR. NEARY : new set up ? MR. MORGAN : (inaudible)? MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Tape No. 212 1 MJ - 2 I will not answer them if you You finally paid for your What is your eighteen year old Order, please! Order,please! Before we continue with Petitions it gives me great pleasure to welcome to our gallerie .s Mr. Frank Murphy, Mayor of Rushoon, and Mr. Frank Kennedy, Principal of Marystown Central Hig~ School. SOME HON. MEMBERS : Hear, hear! PRESENTING PETITIONS MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: ~he hon. the member for Burin - Placentia West. MR. TOBIN: Mr.

Speaker, I would like to present a petition signed.by 1,612 people from my district. This petition was circulated by the Sacred Heart Parish at Marystown and it is in opposition to the .. 4539

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2122 JV - 1 MR. TOBIN: -··- - Morgantaler Abortion Clinics. The prayer of the petition is in the form of a covering letter to me which I shall read, Mr. Speaker. It is from the Sacred Heart Parish of Marystown, which says: "Attached please find a petition signed by 1,611 members of this area in opposition to the establishment of the Morgantaler style Abortion Clinics in this- Province. The petition was signed at weekend masses in this parish, at the Marystown Fish Plant and at our two area malls over the past week. In addition to this the petition 1 on Mother's Day, May 8, about 250 people took

part in a Walk for Life in Marystown in order to make a public statement on the abortion situation. We would ask that if possible, you would present this petition in the House of Assembly and then convey it to the Minister of Health, the han. Wallace House." Mr. Speaker, let me say that both myself and the Minister of Health, l.fr. House, were in Marystown on Monday night when the petition was presented to me,in the presence of the minister,by the Parish Priest there. As I stated earlier the petition was signed by 1, 612 and the letter states 1,611, The reason for this, Mr.

Speaker, is that since the letter was circulated my good wife signed the petition; she was not present to sign it on Mother's Day as she happened to be in hospital giving birth to our child which,I think,clearly indicates where we stand on the abortion issue. Mr. Speaker, in presenting this petition, may I ,reflect back to my many years as a social worker in this Province when, at times, I dealt 4540

May 13 , 1983 Tape No . 2122 JV - 2 MR. TOBIN: with some people \vho found themselves in the situation of pregnancy, who, I might add, felt at times in a state of desperation, a state of despair and I shudaer to think what might have ·- -happened ~f such clinics had been established in this Province. Mr. Speaker, I know that there are many children in this Province who .were probably not planned but I can certainly say "that I know that all of these children are certainly wanted. Mr. Speaker, let me say that I believe that life begins at concepti.on and I believe that everyone has a right to life. Therefore, Mr.

Speaker, I personally,strongly oppose Dr. Morgantaler in even considering our Province for such a clinic. I believe that our Province 4541

May 13, 1983 Tape No.2123 SD - 1 ' MR. TOBIN: does not need Dr. Morgantaler. This Island has been and I am sure will continue to be perfectly peaceful without his presence. MR. NEARY: (Inaudible) MR. TOBIN: Mr. Speaker, in presenting · this petition, i would appreciate it if the Leader of the Opposition would remain silent and let me present the petition, . - . as I believe this is a very important petition and it warrants the support of the House, Mr. Speaker. And as I stated earlier, just last week I had an opportunity to visit the hospital as my new son was delivered there. And to walk into the nursery, Mr.

Speaker, at St. Clare•s HospitaJ and I am sure all the rest of the hospitals and to see all these little babies, Mr. Speaker, the happy parents who were present and to share the ~oy and happiness with these people, people whom you do not even kno~ is to me, Mr. Speaker, what this life is all about. I present this petition, Mr. Speaker, with 1,612 names, I certainly add my own signature to the petition and say that I strongly support and strongly endorse this petition and I ask that all han. members of th .e House support the petition as well. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : The han.

Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, we on this side of the House support the prayer of the petition. We want to state categorically that we on this side of the House are totally against abortion on demand. We are amazed that th.e Morgantaler representatives in this Province are making statements, challenging the law, challenging the Minister of Health (_Mr. Housel, . challenging the 45~2

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2123 SD - 2 MR. NEARY: administration. And, Mr. Speaker, I was rather taken back the other night to see a lady on television being interviewed saying that they had raised enough money to take on the government, take on the minister if their application for a permit is challenged. Now, Mr. Speaker, I am also rather disappointed with the hon. gentleman who presented the petition and supported the prayer of the petition that he would continue to support an administration and a department that would allow the Health Sciences Complex down there to be treated like a slaughter house.

The number of abortions that go on over there, Mr. Speaker, I am told are frightening. The han. gentleman made no reference to that at all. The han. gentleman must remember that he is supporting an administration that has come so close to abortion on demand at the Health Sciences Complex, Mr. Speaker - DR. COLLINS: MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Minister of Finance. DR. COLLINS: A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hon. Mr. Speaker, the Standing Orders state that in supporting or commenting on a petition presented in this hon. House the subject matter may not be the subject of debate. Now the hon.

Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Neary) is wandering away from the subject, he is getting into what he perceives as government policy what he perceives is quite incorrect, of course - but nevertheless he is getting into an area of what he perceives as government policy and is debating that policy and that is quite outside the rules of this House in terms of commenting on or supporting petitions. 45~3

May 13,1983 Tape No. 2124 ah-1 MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): Order, please! To_ that point of-order the hon. member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: The member for Burin- Placentia West (Mr. Tobin) presented a petition which dealt with abortion and the Leader of the Opposition pointed out that at the Health Sciences Complex1abortions are almost on demand. His comments were along the lines of the hon. member's petition because the petition was against abortion, Mr.Speaker. DR. COLLINS: MR. SPEAKER: hon. Minister of Finance. DR.COLLINS: To that point of order-. To that point of order the Mr.

Speaker, the activities in this area at the Health Sciences Complex are carried out,to my knowledge and to the knowledge of this government, according to the Criminal Law of Canada , i.e., there are committees set up as are required by the Criminal Code of Canada and those committees are functioning,the deliberations of those committees are perfectly according to the code. Therefore,the activities at the Health Sciences Complex in no way bears any resemblance whatever to a Morgantaler type o"f abortion clinic and that is the subject of this petition. For the hon.

House Leader Opposite to say and to try to tie in what is going on at the Health Sciences Complex with the subject matter of this petition is quite erroneous and quite fallacious. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order. The hon. Leader of the Opposition. MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the hon. gentleman just touched the very point that I was attempting to make when the hon. gentleman interrupted with a point of order and that is that these committees although they 4544

"' May 13,1983 Tape No. 2124 ah-2 MR.NEARY: are appointed do not meet, they do not function, they do not approve the abortions. They do not meet , Mr. Speaker, and that is exactly the point I was making DR. COLLINS: point of order? MR.NEARY: Mr. Speaker, is this on a Although they may conform with the Criminal Code as far as the setting up of the committee is concerned,the committees do not meet, Mr. Speaker, and the Health Sciences Complex as far as abortion is concerned is a slaughter house. DR.COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, he is debating another issue. MR. SPEAKER(Aylward): Order, please! MR.

NEARY: And I would suspect that we are going to hear more about the Morgantaler matter in the future. We are opposed to that sort of thing, Mr. Speaker, we are opposed to abortion on demand arid we would hope that the Minister of Health (Mr.House) would take a strong position on this matter and not allow these clinics to open in this Province. MR.SPEAKER: Order, please! To that point of order I refer hon. members to Standing Order 92.

"Every member offering a petition shall confine himself to the statement of the parties ,from whom it comes, the number of signatures attached to it and the material allegations it contains. In no case shall a member occupy more than five minutes." The hon. member's time has elapsed with the point of order. MR.NEARY: Well that , of course, was the purpose of the point of order , to use up the time • 4545 ~

May 13,1983 Tape No. 2124 ah-3 MR.SPEAKER (Aylward): To the petition. ·The hon. the· Minister of Healt.l-t. DR. COLLINS : Mr. Speaker, I want to respond and support this petit.ion also. I want to respond to the petition as was presented by my colleague, very ably presented. I had the pleasure,a couple of nights ago when I was down in Marystown,of attending the presentation to him, to the member for Burin-Placentia West {Mr. Tobin), and there \-las some discussion on it.

Now, I think we got a little bit away from the prayer of the petition which is to, of course, prevent the Morgantaler people from setting up a clinic to perform abortions. That is simply the basis of ·what it is. I want to clarify a little, Mr. Speaker -it is a differentiation ho\-l I can support this. I want to 4546

May 13, 1983 Tape 2125 PK - 1 MR. HOUSE: say that right now it is erroneous to say that the ~herapeutic Abortion Committee at the Health Sciences Complex does not meet,it does meet regularly. Every process is gone through. The number of abortions that are performed in this Province is pretty well down by half of what it was, say, about three or four years -- ~- - ago. And there are a lot of people who are rejected because the Committee does not deem them to be therapeutic. So though we are allowing this and permitting this 1 we are not adding or substracting, Mr. Speaker, from the Criminal Code tenet.

The fact of the matter is, there is a Committee, and that is allowed in an accredited hospital. It does give the Minister of Health in each province the capability of approving a non-accredited institution, and the spirit of that is to approve a hospital that may not be accredited. That is what that is. There are a number of our hospitals in the Province that are not accredited, and that gives the minister the capability of allowing that particular institution to do them. It was never intended, as far as I can read the spirit of the Law1 to allow something of that nature to happen at a doctor's office.

And in spirit of that that is what the Morgantaler Clinic is doing. Now, there may be some conception some idea that we are a little wavery on this. Morgantaler has written me, as the Minister of Health, he has asked permission. We have said, no. I do not know how many ways you can say, no. And that is the way it is continuing to be, Mr_. Speaker. So I am very happy to s·ay that I support this and it is the policy of government not to approve any kind of an abortion clinic outside of an accredited hospital. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear! 4547

May 13, 19~3 Tape 2125 PK -2 ORDERS OF THE DAY DR. COLLINS: Mr. Speaker, perhaps a few first readings, first. Motion, the bon. Minister of Justice to introduce a bill, "An Act TO Amend The Law Society Act, 1977", carried. (Bill No. 34). . on motion, Bill No. j4, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Income Tax Act", carried {Bill No. 55). on motion, Bill No. 55, read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. 45~8

,_;;_ May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2126 NM- 1 Motion, the hon. Minister of Finance to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Public Service (Pensions) Act" , carried. (Bill No. 50) On motion, Bill No. 50 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. Minister of Municipal Affairs to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Municipal Grants Act", carried. (Bill No. 521 On motion, Bill No. 52 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon.

Minister Responsible For The Petroleum Directorate to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Petroleum And Natural Gas Act", carried. (Bill No. 54) on motion, Bill No. 54 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Labour Standards Act", carried. (Bill No. 56} On motion, Bill No. 56 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the hon. Minister of Mines and Energy to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Government - British Newfoundland Corporation Limited - N .M.

Rothschild & Sons (Supplemental Agreement} . Act, 19 7 8", carried. (Bill No. 51) on motion, Bill No. 51 read a first t~e, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. Motion, the han. Minister of Mines and Energy to introduce a bill, "An Act To Amend The Mineral Act, 1976", carried. (Bill No. 53t 4549

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2126 NM-2 On motion, Bill No. 53 read a first time, ordered read a second time on tomorrow. MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : Order 1, Budget Debate. 45J0

May 13, 1983 Tape 2127 EC - 1 MR. SPEAKER (AYLWARD) : I understand that last day, the hon. the member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) adjourned the debate. He has approximately twenty-five minutes, The hon. the member for Fogo. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, yesterday evening in the few minutes that I had, I started off my few remarks on the budget by saying that in the Budget Debate I suppose you could talk about many issues: You could talk about the condition of roads in this Province, you could talk about taxes, the fishery,offshore, forestry, public service issues and an endless number of issues. Indeed, Mr.

Speaker, perhaps one of the things that we should talk about in this Budget Debate are some of the broken election promises of this government that have not been fulfilled and are not being fulfilled in this budget this year. I went on to say, Mr. Speaker, that generally speaking though, the budget lays out the government's plan-of action for the coming fiscal year. The Throrie Speech is a very general statement and the Budget Speech gives the detailed, the concrete economic plans 1 that the government plans to carry out in the coming fiscal year. Mr.

Speaker, if I could elaborate on that, basically what I am saying is that it should set the direction that the government intends to take. It should tell us whether the government intends to stand still in its economic measures, whether it intends to put in some cutbacks, intends to cut back on this, that and the other thing. And perhaps, Mr. Speaker, there are times when a budget·- as the member for Bellevue (Mr. Callan) was saying yesterday evening when he was speaking of Mr. Lalonde's budget in Ottawa - there are times when a budget has to take some bold, new initiatives. 4551

May 13, 1983 Tape 2127 EC - 2 MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, if you were looking at this .budget in an overall light, Lf you were being kind to the budget, if you were in a mood to be kind to this budget and to the Minister of Finance (Dr . Collins), you could perhaps say that the budget stands still, that it maintains the status quo. That is the best that members on the other side can do .

And if you were scolding the Minister of Finan ce and I think with the budget he brought in he needs more than that, he needs to be condemned roundly by the people of this Province and I have no doubt that he will be,because it cuts back on some of the services that we have become accustomed to in this Province . In other words, Mr .

Speaker, I think you can say that progress has been injured by this budget, it has been stopped, and I think you could go on to say that indeed, the minister is perhaps remaining true to himself, true to his philosophy, true to the kind of government that he is trying to run, namely, a Tory Conservative Government . Mr. Speaker , I think if you look at it, the really harsh thing about this budget is 455 2

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2128 SD - 1 MR. TULK: that it does not take, it does not take any new initiatives at all. There is absolutely no new direction in this budget. There is nothing new, nothing good, nothing; Mr. Speaker, that says that in the next year Newfoundland is going to progress either socially, culturally or economically, nothing, absolutely nothing. SOME HON. MEMBERS: Hear, hear. MR.

TULK: It is the same only old refrain that this government has been carrying · on with for the past - I have been here, I think, four years in this House and I can remember,the day that the Budget Speech was read saying to the member for the Strait of Belle Isle whosits next to me in this House, I can remember saying to him, 'Has it been like this for the past twenty years, you have been her~ practically twentyyears?', and the answer came back, 'No, but it has been like it for the past ten, the same old stuff'.

You could have written this budget, changed a few figures- the direction in this budget is the same now as it was five years ago, Mr. Speaker. The cover of this budget changes somewhat, changes a little bit, we get a new picture on the cover of the budget every year. It remains about the same thickness, it hardly changes. I do not even bother to bring a copy any more because I can read last years. MR. :HODDER: Always at odds with the federal government. MR. TULR:: Oh, always. They always find somebody to blame something on,whether it be the federal government, Nova Scotia, Quebec or somebody.

But it has the same tone, the same direction. It had the same direction in 1978, it has the same direction - MR. DINN: (Inaudible) . 4553

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2128 so -2 MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, if trre Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) wants to go after me he should do it in this House and not from the gallery. It is basically the same budg.et as was written in 1978, the same budget as was written in 1979, the same budget as was written in 1980 and the same budget as was written in 1981. It sets no, absol'Utely no new direction at all, no new direction, nothing. There is no direction for the creation of wealth in this ?rovince, that is· something that this government. has forgotten.

They should realize that in order to have jobS', in order for the. 50,000 st'Udents .in this Province to get jobs. you have, first of all, to create some wealth i:.:p., thi.s Province· before you can get jobs. That is one. thi:.n9' they did not realize, that there is a connection between wealth creati.on and job creation. And the basic failure of this government in the last ten years is that th~y have not created any wealth. The wealth in Newfoundland today ~emains practically the same as it did in 1972, and certainly this group has not created any wealth. in this Province since 1979.

It is a ti.red Tory docl.li!lent, I~ is mindless, it is dull and it is uncrea.tive. There is absolutely nothing in it. 4 5 J l+

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2129 MJ - 1 MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, I think it is fair to say that if you look at the Canadian economy, if you look at how Canadians feel about the economy today that there is a feeling of cautious optimism in this country that we are going to come out of the recession that we are in. There is a feeling that the Canadian economy is recovering slowly. Everybody in this country seems to accept that fact. There is a renewed faith,I believe,in Canada that! think is starting to develop. Now, Mr.

Speaker, I do not believe that it is any secret, I think it is fair to say, that that feeling of cautious optimism, that feeling of renewed faith in this country has been helped tremendously by the federal budget just recently brought" in by the hon. Marc Lalonde, the federal Liberal Government,by the way, Mr. Speaker. We saw Mr. Lalonde bring in a special :recovery programme, a programme that attempts to create jobs-attempts to create wealth and then create jobs, and he attempts to do it through assisting private enterprise and creating jobs through private investment. Now, Mr.

Speaker, if we look at this budget that was brought in by this government you would expect that this budget would be somewhat in line with the same kind of initiative that is being taken by the federal government; for example,we have just seen from the federal goverprnent the announcement of millions of dollars. For example, the member for Humber West (Mr. Baird) who at the present time is not in the House, is going to. benefit, his people are going to benefit to the sum of $10 million 1 for the Corner Brook harbour developement. His consituents and the consituents of the member for Humber East (Ms.

Verge) and no doubt the constituents of all of the members from the West Coast,are going to benefit from that $10 million that was just recently announced for 4555

May 13, 1983 Tape No . 2129 MJ - 2 MR. TULK: Corner Brook and it is my understanding, Mr. Speaker, that there is not one cent of provincial money going into that. Is that right? I understand that it is totally federally funded. MR. HODDER: They should all crawl under their seats and hide away, the whole works of them. MR. TULK : Now, there is no doubt about it, as the hon. the member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) has just said, that when those projects get underway ~e will hear the member for Humber West (Mr, Baird), the Minister of Education (Ms. Verge) and the Minister of Health (Mr.

House) try to stand up in this House and in Corner Brook and take some credit for what is happening, As a matter of fact, ~rr . Speaker, that cannot be done . In the same way the provincial Mi nister of Fisheries (Mr. Morgan) cannot take credit for the $24 million that was announced last week for fisheries infra structur e in this Province. But it is an example of what the 4556

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2130 JV - 1 MR. TULK: Federal Government is trying to do, trying to create jobs through the creation of infrastructure for development in this Province. This government has not done that. Yesterday, we had an announcement of millions of other dollars, for example 1 the $16 million that was announced for the start of the Trans-Labrador highway, something that will open up the last natural wealth Frontier in this Province and perhaps in this Country , Labrador. Mr. Speaker, it is something that the people have been looking forward to for years.

There are millions of dollars for other roads in this Province, and besides that the Federal Government has put in millions of dollars for make-work projects. Mr. Speaker, they have also showed us some new initiatives in research and development. What initiatives do we have in this Provincefor research and development? What change of direction i; there in this Provincef t·lhat change of direction has there been for the past five or six years? We have seen the Federal Government take new initiatives in the area of small business through FBDB. Mr.

Speaker, there have been many, many, many inititiaves that have recently been taken by the Federal Government to create jobs, to create wealth in this Province, to help the --·- - . ·-- -- ~-- member for St. John's North (Mr. Carter) to sell his savory, to create a market for research and development. I hope he avails of it. What did we get yesterday, Mr. Speaker? It was pathetic to see the Premier of this Province, the first Minister of this Province, say he was pleased 4557

May 13, 1983 Tape No.2130 JV -2 MR. TULK: that he was able to negotiate a deal with Ottawa on the roads agreement. Mr. Speaker, I suspect that he did not know one thing that was happening until the Federal Minister from Newfoundland, Mr. Rompkey, ... ;alked in and told him. MR. DINN: MR. TULK: nO\., silly. Mr. Speaker, I bring up the points that I bring up because I think it is fair to say that if you look at what a budget should do for this co~~try that the Federal Government is perhaps heading in the right direction. I think it is doing some of the right things. 4558

May 13, 19B3 Tape 2131 EC - 1 MR. TULK: That has been shown,.Mr. Speaker, by the fact that the Lalonde budget has been widely accepted all across Canada. It has created a feeling, Mr. Speaker, that there is light at the end of the tunnel. It has created that feeling. Mr. Speaker, what about Newfoundland? What about this Province and what about the Newfoundland budget, the government's budget in this Province?

The day before yesterday, on Wednesday, in speaking to a private members' resolution, we were trying to _impress upon the government the importance of an amendment moved by the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) and we on this side of the House said, We live in a Province with the highest rate of unemployment in Canada. And I think we quoted some figures from the APEC report tnat showed that indeed we are living in a place where it is practically impossible to get a job, where there is nothing happening, absolutely nothing happening.

We quoted, for example, that the unemployment rate at the end of January, 19B3 was 17.3 per cent, consistently the highest in Canada, and that we had this year an increase of 22.6 per cent in unemployment over last year. So things are not getting better in this Province, they are getting worse. We also pointed out in that resolution that we are looking at Newfoundland as the Province in Canada with the highest cost of living; not only that, Mr. Speaker, but if you look at the Atlantic Provinces Economic Council report, it shows a very startling fact about the actions of this government.

It shows, for example, that the new provincial tax that was put on last Fall by the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collins), the 12 per cent s.s.A. and the recent increases in electricity rates have kept Newfoundland's inflation rate quite high. 4559

May 13, 1983 Tape 2131 EC -2 MR. TULK: In other words, Mr. Speak~r, the government of this Province through something that it controls, namely the taxes, the 12 per cent s.s.A. put on last Fall by the Minister of Finance {Dr. Collins) and the e.ver increasing electricity rates in this Province are helping to keep Newfoundland's inflation rate. up. Now, Mr. Speaker, if you look at this Province, you look at a Province where the Minister of Education {Ms Verge) in her true blue Tory way, is sitting over there and saying, 'Yes, we have. th_e best student aid programme in Canada.' True. That is true. Mr.

Speaker, if you live as a student in this Province today, you live in a place where you have the highest cost of living of any person in Canada, 45GO

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2132 NM - 1 MR. TULK: you live in a place where you have the highest rate of unemployment in Canada, so,therefore, Mr. Speaker, what we are saying is that you have the highest cost of education anywhere in this country. In other words, Mr. Speaker, if you want to live, work, go into business, it will cost you more to do that in this Province than anywhere else in Canada. Now, Mr.

Speaker, the other strange, the other bad thing about what seems to be happening in this Province today is that if you look again at the Atlantic Provinces Economic Council's report and they are a pretty reliable indicator of what is happening in Atlantic Canada, if you look at their report they point out to you that while there is recovery in the other Atlantic Provinces, and while there is recovery in Canada taking place, the uncertainty of recovery in Newfoundland -the prospects, they say, for recovery are uncertain.

On page 12 of their report they say that the prospects for recovery in this Province are uncertain. Now, Mr. Speaker, the unemployment insurance figures reflect that uncertainty. Our unemployment rate is not dropping. The Consumer Price Index reflects that uncertainty. As I said before, the inflation rate in Newfoundland remains still the highest in Canada. And not only that, the government of this Province is,in itself, contributing to that high rate of inflation. That is the reason, Mr.

Speaker, as I was saying before, that in the private member's resolution that was brought in the other day the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) amended that resolution to say, "Look, instead of having all this fighting, instead of having to fight everything that you see, instead of having 4561

May 13, L983 Tape No. 2132 NM-2 MR. TULK: to fight windmills, as the Prem~er is fond of doing, as the government is fond of doing-"'hat is the latest group he is going to fight now? Petrel, the group that owns Petrel -Canterra. He has fought about everything else he can find now he has got to fight another oi.l company. With the amendment \oThat we were trying to do, knowing full well that this budget has not done .-anything for this Province, that there were no ne\oT initiatives in this Province, 4562

May 13, 1983 Tape 2133 PK - 1 MR. TULK: that there was nothing happening as a re~ult of the government action in this Province, the member for Torngat Mountains (Mr. Warren) oaid, Let us have a resolution in this House that says, We are united, as one'. We are saying it to both governments, because the people who sit on the backbenches over there,they may not realize it, but they are not part of the government. The people who sit on the backbenches over there are not part of government.

So we are saying to them let us tell the Government of Newfoundland and the Government of Canada that if the economy of this Province is going to recover they have to sit down MR. YOUNG: You will never make it over here, so you have not got anything to worry about. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, if I were in this House and ~ad progressed no further than that man has progressed since he has been here I would not open my face. He is in the lowest portfolio that you can find, the Department of Public Works. They would not put him anywhere else, but they had to put him somewhere because look at the age of the man. MR.

YOUNG: You cannot disgrace t:~e man. Age is honourable , boy! MR. TULK: Age is honourable and that is the reason why he is in the Department of Public Works because you have to honour him for his age, and that is all. Mr • •• I Speaker, I hear he has the ear of the Premier. That would not surprise me,because they are probably at about the same level when it comes to government. MR. YOUNG: God help the children who went to school to you. MR. TULK: God help the people he has to bury. Mr. Speaker, if he is as good at burying people as he is atthe job he does in this House, then God help 4563

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2133 PK-2 MR. TULK: them. God help them: MR. NEARY: I hope they never put me in his hands. MR. TULK: I would not want to be in his hands, no. There would be all kinds of fluid over you. But the tragedy of the recovery in Canada versus the non­ recovery in Newfoundland is that we are .. seeing in this Province an increasing gap in the unemployment figures. The Minister of Labour and Manpower (Mr. Dinn) stands over there and defends his figures, but he does not bring in his little reports now like he was bringing in a couple of years ago. MR. DINN: Oh, yes, I have them here. MR.

TULK: He does not bring them in, Mr. Speaker. . MR. DINN: I have them here. MR. TULK: If he does then he is obviously going to try to cover them up to make them say something that they do not really say. He is very good at covering up the statistics of the unemployed in this Province,but it is not very good, Mr. Speaker, if you cover up the figures and then go out and talk to the people in the street who cannot find a job, and he is supposed to be the Minister of Labour and Manpowe (Mr. Dinn). The yappiest member in this House. His mouth is going all of the time. No substance. Nothing to say.

No jobs being created by that minister in this Province, absolutely nothing being done. His salary, in terms of what he does for the people of this Province is a waste of money, it could create a job for somebody else, and yet he keeps yapping away over there. M...~. DINN: year. MR. TULK: MR. NEARY: We created ten new ones last That is all you ever did,create. The Jfficial greeter, that is the only job that the administration created. MR. TULK: official greeter. That is right. Created an 4 5 Bl+

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2134 AH-1 MR. TULK: Now, Mr. Speaker,- as I was saying at the beginning, this budget has done nothing, absolutely nothing to make certain things happen, that unemployment figures are lowered, that there are more jobs in this Province and that people have a better chance of getting an education in this Province. It has done absolutely nothing. There are no tax breaks, absolutely no tax breaks for anybody to stimulate construction, to try to increase consumer spending, nothing. There is no encouragement in this budget for yo~ng Newfoundlanders to develop their skills and education.

I mean, it is the stupidest - the Minister of Labour (Mr. Dinn) stands in this House and defends the local preference policy. He does not realize that basically what he is saying to Newfoundlanders is that I have to protect you from everybody else because you cannot compete. That is basically what he is saying. He does not realize that if you increase the educational opportunity in this Province for Newfoundlanders, if you give them an education, teach them the skills, they can compete with any other person in the world. He does not realize that. He wants to go out in his paternalistic way andprotect them.

That is the kind of thing that he tries to do. Mr. Speaker, if you go on and look at the budget you can see that there is less for students. Mr. Speaker, I would say that this budget is like a long liner with no plank and, if you understand what I mean, no oakum. This budget sunk as soon as it hit the water. The day that it was announced this budget sunk. MR. CARTER: Overflowing. MR. TULK: Mr. Speaker, what is he smoking? Has he got some of that savory over there again this morning? MR. NEARY: If you inhale enough of that it will get you, boy. It will affect your brain,if you inhale enough of it. MR.

TULK: Go to sleep, Mr. Speaker, 4565

t-1ay 13 ,1983 Tape No. 2134 ah-2 MR.TULK: he is usually asleep in this House and that is when he makes the most sense. MR.NEARY : on savory? MR.LUSB: on this morning . MR.TULK: shirt on this morning. MR. HODDER : MR.TULK: Did you ever get high He has a big shirt collar Has he? He has a size 19 The same as his I.Q. Well ,that .has been said before . Everybody knows what that means here in this House. MR. DINN : How can you stay awake? MR.TULK: It is very difficult when I look at t..i-le hon . member . He is able to put you asleep. Now , Mr. Speaker, the truth is that this budget, this sinking boat, may cost the poor and the middle-class in this Province more than is presently predicted. 4566

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2135 MJ - 1 MR. TULK: What is the predicted deficit this year? MR. LUSH: MR. TULK: Twenty-eight point four million. Twenty-eight point our million. Last year this government predicted that there would be a $5 million surplus. MR. LUSH: There will only be $8.4 million now because they saved $20 million. MR. TULK: There would be a $5 million surplus, not deficit, surplus. In the middle of the year, in September, we ended up with a $60 million deficit, we ended up with a 12 per cent sales tax.And we told the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) in this House then that he had perhaps reached the point of diminishing returns with sales tax,by sticking on another percentage point he may indeed be driving down what he was going to collect, and that is, in fact, what - ---- . --- -. happened and we ended up with a deficit. After he had taken all the measures, cut off everybody on welfare, closed down hospital beds, what did we end up with then? We ended up still with a $47 million deficit. This budget is predicting a $28.5 million deficit.

They have saved $17 million on the backs of - not the teachers - the students in this Province and I will make a prediction now - we cannot believe their predictions - thateven with that $17 million tha .t was saved on the backs of the students in this Province,we will end up with a deficit as high or higher than we had last year. I would predict, Hr.

Speaker, that in September or October of this year we are likely to see a new mini-budget and if they can find something else in this Province to tax­ I suspect that the only thing that they have not found is the number of hours that you sleep - they will probably tax that. MR. NEARY: And how many times you go to the bathroom. 45G7

May 13, 1983 MR. TULK: MR. CARTER: L!_beral tax. MR. TULK: Tape No. 2135 MJ-2 And going to the bathroom. Put a tax on all Liberals. The A Liberal Tax. A Tory Tax is what is downing this Province. MR. SPEAKER (MCNICHOLAS) : elapsed. MR. TULK: MR. DINN: MR. SPEAKER: and Manpower. Order, please! The han. member's time has Mr. Speaker, we will be back at it. Mr. Speaker. Th~hon. Minister of Labour MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, I rise to speak in this debate because, obviously, I have heard the han. member for the past half hour say virtually nothing but what he did say disturbed me somewhat in that - MR. HODDER: Mr.

Speaker, I wish to draw to the attention of the House that there is no quorum, Mr. Speaker. A member from the government side is speaking and they obviously d want to hear what he has to say since they are not here to listen to him. I think it is disgraceful, Mr. Speaker. MR. DINN: To that point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. HODDER: It was not a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. DINN: The hon. member does not have the floor and the only way he can get the floor is through a point of order. MR. NEARY: It was not a point of order, it was a quorum call. Sit down, boy, it was a quorum call. MR.

HODDER: It was not a point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: Order, please! There is not a quorum in the House. Call in the members. QUORUM CALL 4568

May 13, 1983 MR. SPEAKER (McNicholas): a quorum is present. and Manpower. Tape No. 2136 SD - l Three minutes have elapsed and The hen. Minister of Labour MR. DINN: Thank you very . much, Mr. Speaker. That is just an 'indication obviously of the attitude that the hon. members opposite have for this House of Assembly. up to speak in this debate MR. NEARY: MR. SPEAKER: Leader of the Opposition. MR. NEARY: Mr. Speaker, the reason I got A point of order, Mr. Speaker. A point of order, the hen. Mr.

Speaker, I would like to point out to the House that we ~ere merely carrying out our duties and responsibilities as responsible members of this House. The hen. gentleman questioned our motives. Mr. Speaker, that is not in keeping with the rules of this House. It is up to the government to keep a quorum in the House and not the Opposition, Mr. Speaker, and the hen. gentleman should be aware of that. MR. DINN: To the point of order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: To the point of order, the hen. Minister of Labour and Manpower. MR. DINN: Mr. Speaker, obviously again the hen. Leader of the Opposition (Mr.

Neary) is raising a point of order that is not a point of order. As a matter of fact, Mr. Speaker, it is not even a.good point. MR. S IM!.'iS : Hear, hear! A good argument. MR. SPEAKER: To that point of order, I rule there is no point of order, it is a matter of explanation by the hon. Leader of the Opposition. The hon. Minister of Labour and Manpower. 4569

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2136 SD - 2 MR. DINN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I was going to point out to the hon. House - I will,first of all, speak about what the hon. member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk} was talking about but then I will talk about something else, this being a very wide-ranging debate. The hon. member for Fogo, in talking about the local preference policy, said that if the government would educate Newfoundlanders we would not have to have a local preference-policy. That,to me, says that Newfoundlanders are not educated,which is an insult to the population of this Province.

The fact of the matter is,for sixteen years off our coast rigs operated and there were no Newfoundlanders, in many cases 'no Canadians,working on those rigs. I have said that-in the House many times, I say it again today because, obviously, hon. members opposite do not know the importanc;e of wh.at is going on off our coast. For sixteen years,with educated Newfoundlanders capable of doing jobs in the offshore, no Newfoundlanders worked on thoserigs. The only jobs, to my knowledge, that Newfoundlanders or Canadians _ever got on the rigs offshore were jobs on the SEDCO rigs that were built in Halifax.

If any member opposite has a problem with that kind of information,then he has the obligation to prove d~fferently, Mr. Speaker, to disprove my facts. To my knowledge these are the facts. 4570

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2137 NM- 1 MR. DINN: And for the han. member to say that we have 11,000 Newfoundlanders registered for work in the offshore who do not have the education to work on those rigs,I tell him the companies do not agree with that, the Newfoundland Government does not agree with that, nobody agrees with the han. member. The han. member said , and the han. member can go and look at Hansard, he said if the government would educate Newfoundlanders they would not have to worry about local preference. I tell the han. member Newfound .landers are educated. They can do these jobs.

They are well educated and well equipped to do these jobs. For sixteen years nobody did anything about those jobs and as a result no jobs went to Newfoundlanders, in many cases no jobs went to Canadians, because if a French rig came .in, French people stayed on it. No company complied with any regulation because there were no regulations in place. In 1979,when regulations did come into place in Newfoundland, we got Newfoundl-anders, for the first time, on rigs. The first rig, the Discoverer Seven Seas, 122 Newfoundlanders on for the first time.

Now,there were some Newfoundlanders, in case han. members do not know, who did work on the SEDCO rigs that were built in Halifax. But for the han. member to say what the minister should do is educate New~oundlanders and then they will get jobs . on the rigs, they will not need local preference, I say to the han. member that we have Newfoundlanders educated, well equipped, to work on those rigs and it is an insult tQ the 11,000 people who are registered for work in the offshore. MR. TULK: How come you could not find anybody out of 11,000 to work on the Petrel? 4571

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2137 NM- 2 ·MR. DINN: I can replace, Mr. Speaker, the whole rig of the Petrel. There are Newfoundlanders qualified enough to replace every member of that crew, captain, tool pusher, all the way down. We have Newfoundlanders, Mr. Speaker, who are quite capable of working on the rigs,and I will give the han. member a little run-down now of how we are doing employment-wise on the rigs offshore. On the SEDCO 706 0 of 110 people on the SEDCO 706, 93 people are from Newfoundland. On the West Venture, 115 people, 6 9 are Newfoundlanders. The z·ap·ata Ugland, 116 people, 85 are Newfoundlanders. Mr.

Speaker, the Pellerin, Pacnorse, and Nedrill 2, of one hundred and fifty-odd per rig, we got 70 Newfoundlanders working on those rigs, 30 of them on each of those 3 rigs have permanent jobs and move with the rigs wherever they go, qualified Newfoundlanders, Mr. Speaker 4 As a matter of fact,in the companies that I have talked to-the Discoverer seven s·eas, when we replaced . the first crew out there and put on 122 Newfoundlanders, when they came back in to talk to me - ... -- -· r-rn.. NEARY: Go away, boy! MR.

DINN: I '!il ~ _giv _: _:the -~on. members some facts now so they can use them and sound a little bit reasonable and know a little bit about the Province. 4572

May 13, 1983 Tape 2138 EC - 1 MR. DINN: • The people who operated the Discoverer Seven Seas, the first rig that we replaced the crew on offshore, the rig that drilled the deepest drill hole in the world at the time - I do not know if that has been surpassed - but the people who operated that rig came in and said, 'We have working on the Discoverer Seven Seas a driller from Newfoundland who worked in the Beaufort Sea' the likes of whom they had not seen in their lives, the best driller that they had seen in their lives, on the rig.

He could handle by himself the drill platform which .takes about three to four people. Now, he did not do it by himself, but when I was out there to visit the rig, he put on a demonstration whereby he showed myself and several of the officers of the operating company how he could operate the drill platform by himself. And, Mr. Speaker, as witnessed by anybody who has ever been out there and been on that drill platform, that is quite a feat for any one p~rson. That driller was, by the way, offered a $25,000 job to go Spain for a three month drill, he was so good.

And he was a Newfoundlander, educated, qualified, well-equipped to do any of the jobs offshore. of the rigs. MR. WARREN: MR. DINN: I will go through a couple more By the way, would there be any chance - The han. member has a question;' I will permit the han. memb_er a question. MR. WARREN: I was just wondering, Mr. Speaker, could members of the Opposition or members from the other side have a chance to go out and visit one of those rigs sometime? MR. DINN: Well, Mr. Speaker, I have never had a problem with going out to visit one of the rigs.

I think all the han. member has to do - I do not control the helicopter system back and forth, but I guarantee him that 4573

May 13, 1983 Tape 2138 EC - 2 MR. DINN: if he were to call the drL11ing companies, Hobil or Petro -Can or one of those dri11Lng companies, I think they would be delighted to take the hon. member out. I know when I went out there were seven or eight on the helicopter which went out that day to visit the rig, so me of the officials from my department , myself and several other people . So I think they would be only too happy, especially during the crew change,because I understand there are times that the helicopter goes back and forth not filled, to the rig .

Just to give hon . '- members,a rundown, continuing on, we have gone now through six of the ri gs. The John Shaw will be here when it completes its drill off Nova Scotia ; the SEDCO 710 is on its way here now, as a matter of fact, from the Indian Ocean; and I have to inform hon. members that the Bow Drill is now with Pan ­ Canadian and they are currently with my officials in the department determining how many people they can get from our registry to fill their crew.

So that is ten rigs, even though BP was cancelled out this year - and they had to cancel out, in my opinion, because the federal government did not sign the permits unti~ late. MR. TULK : . Both of you. 4574

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2139 SD - 1 MR. DINN: No, no, we had them signed. Now, I will tell the hon. member, bec:aust7 that is fact, we had them signed months before BP were gearing up to operate out of Botwood 1 but because the federal government signed it late they had to cancel their drill. It was not because they could not get a ship,because there are hundreds of drill rigs in this world that the people at BP could have gotten, it was just a little bit too late. So what they are going to do this year is they are going to some seismic work.

Now with respect to unemployment, going through that, what we anticipate this year 1 there will be about 3,470 people working offshore and onshore, directly related, the biggest drilling programme that we have had in this Province to date. We will have about 3,473 confirmed, to this point in time, of that about 2,107 or thereabout. plus or minus one or two, about 2,100- Newfoundlanders will be ~rking offshore this year. That is one thing that we would not have had if we did not have the regulations.

And another reason we are going to have it is because our regulations are now confirmed in the new Canadian Co~stitution under

Section 6, if the hon. member would care to look that up. Also, I would like to tell the hon. member that the Minister of Finance (Dr. Collin~t identified today that we will have 500 Summer youth employment people working in different departments of goverrnent. The Social Services Department this year, through their community development programme,will employ about 2,800 people. The new Confederation Building when it getsunderwa~ at peak, will have about 400 people working on it. The NEED programme this year will employ about 6,000 people. 4575

May 13, 1983 Tap~ No. 2139 so -2 MR. HODDER: A point of ord~r, ·Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKE~ (McNicholas) : A point of order, the hon, member for Port au Port. MR. HODDER: There is no quorum in the House, Mr. Speaker. MR. DINN: Oh, this is a complete waste of time. Why do you not smarten up? I mean, you are supposed to be a well-educated,intelligent human being. Why do you not smarten up? MR. SPEAKER (Aylward) : and we do have a quorum. and .Manpower. SOME HON. MEMBERS : MR. DINN: QUORUM CALL Three minutes have passed The han. Minister of Labour Hear, hear. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Obviously, han. members opposite do not want to hear some facts. The hon. member for Fogo (Mr. Tulk) spoke in this Bouse just before I got up to speak and took about half an hour to say that if we educated Newfoundlanders we would not have to have a local preference policy in place. That,to me,sa~s that Newfoundlanders are not educated. The fact of the matter is,that for sixteen years,with people who.werequalified to work offshor~ nobody, no Newfoundlanders, got jobs offshore. 4576

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2140 JV - 1 MR. DINN: I qualify that by saying that we did have some Newfoundlanders who worked on the SEDCO rigs out of Halifax but that was it. No other Newfoundlanders got jobs on the rigs offshore. When the regulations carne, in, no different from '78 to '79, in 1979 all of a sudden, on the first rig, by the way, 122 Newfoundlanders and that year seven hundred - odd people worked on the rigs offshore.

This year, as I indicated to hon. members, just about confirmed now, we will have approximately 3,473 people working in offshore, or onshore directly related to that, and about 2100 of those will be qualified Newfoundlanders. We also have, Mr. Speaker, as I was going down through them - so offshore 2100, Summer employment - the Minister of Finance (Dr.

Collins) announced this morning - 500, the Social Services department this year through their community development programme will have 2800 people employed, th~ Confe3eration Building will peak out at about 400 people, the NEED programme will have about 6,000 people employed, the Fisheries and Marine Centre, when that gets going will have several hundred people, I am sure, employed, the Municipal Affairs and Housing programme, when that is announced that will have quite a number of people employed putting in water and sewer and road reconstruction and paving in municipalities. Mr.

Speaker, the Transportation budget approved for roads in the Province, that does not include what the hon. the Premier was successful in concluding, the agreement with the Federal Government yesterday, it just includes the local transportation programme that we have every year and that will employ people, Mr. Speaker. So things are going to start turning around to the 4577

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2140 JV - 2 -MR r ' DINN:- chagrin of the han. members opposite. So I have first of all dealt with the point that the han. member made in his half hour, that we d.o not have educated Newf,oundlanders 1 which is a slight against the 11,000 to work offshore, a slight _against the 11,000 people who have registered for work offshore. Mr.

Speaker, it is a fact that of that we will have at least 2,100 Newfoundlanders working offshore and onshore, directly relate -d to that _,~ because of -our regulations and because the han. the Premier last year held out and fought for the fact that we shoE: l have this local preference or affirmative action policy in Newfoundlandland.~hat law is now confirmed in the Canadian Constitution under

Section 6. I have dealt with that part ! of it,Mr. Speaker, and that just about covers - even though I was interrupted several times by the han. member for Port au Port (Mr. Hodder) - that shoots down in flames what the han. member for Fogo(Mr. Tulk) was trying to say. Now I would like to deal with a few things locally, because in the B-udget Debate, obviously, you can get into the local areas. Of course, I have not been very vocal about St. John's or my district or any of that,but you ha.ve to sometimes bite your tongue when you hear local politicians,say 1 the Mayor of the City of St.

John's say this 1 or the Deputy- Mayor say that, you have to sometimes bite your tongue because what you want to do is make sure you get whatever you can for your city or for your district and that is what we go about doing. If we wasted our time answering to what some of the local politicians in the City of St. John's say we would be just doing that, wasting our time. 4578

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2141 MJ - 1 MR. DINN: We do not do a lot of that but just for hon. members information . I came into the House of Assembly in 1975,so 1976-77 was the first year that I really got involved in what was happening provincial government wise with the City of St. John's. I became Minister of_Municipal Affairs later on that year and I found out some very interesting things. I found out,for example 1 that in 1975, as hon. members will remember, we ran short of water in the capital City of St. John's, in this Province.

We ran short of water: There was not enough water in Windsor Lake to supply the City of St. John's and area. So we could not water lawns, there were people who lived in high places like Signal Hill who did not get water because there was not enough pressure and so on. But here we had the City of St. John's run out of water. So I investigated that in an attempt to find out what happened and found out - MR. SIMMS: Were you minister then? MR.

DINN: No, I became minister a little later on that year. - but I found out with my investigations that the reason we did not have water was because there was no planning in the City of St. John's. Their planning department had been thrown out. So, we did not have any planning down in the City of St. John's, they were not aware, I guess, of the amount of water that was needed for the ci~ y . I think Windsor Lake can supply something aroundlS million gallons of water per day. Of course,we went over that, we needed about 2 or 3 million gallons more,and Windsor Lake was not capable of supplying it.

So we concluded very quickly an agreement with the federal government to start the Bay Bulls - Bi"g Pond water system. MR. SIMMS: ----.. -,.; From where does Kilbride get its water? 4579

May 13, 1983 Tape No. 2141 MJ - 2 MR . DINN: Ki~ride? ~~ a matter of fact, .. the hon . the Speaker would kno w that Kil br ide gets it s water now from Bay Bulls - Big Pond 1 and there is an ongoing programme in there to make sure that Kilbride is supplied with T.llater from that great system . As a matter of fact,it is extended now to Mount Pearl, . it is on its \-lay to Paradise . And that system ,b y the way , I do not knoN if hon . members know it , cost federa lly and provin cially about $40 million,of which about $10 million was provincial funds . MR. SIMMS: And Kilbride gets its water from there? MR.

DINN : Yes , of course, Kilbrid e, the hon. the Speaker 's district,gets it from Bay Bull s- Big Pond 1 plus the fact that it supplies about double the amount of water now . So, Mr. Speake r, I would just like to go through what happened in the next fe\'1 years in the City of St. John's,and it is the reason why the mayor this year could stand up in Council and say, ·~ve have balanced our budget .' Wel1 1 it is prettv simple at time s to balance your budget if you are getti ng $7 million or $8 million 458 0

May 13,1983 Tape No. 2142 ah-1 MR. DINN: in the form of grants,or in the form of debt charges being paid for by the provincial government. So the mayor gets up and he says I am going to balance my budget this year. The unfortunate part about it is that the whole capital programme for road reconstruction and paving requested by the city this year- I think- I heard the Deputy Mayor say what the request was in the past few weeks-is about $1 million and that will not do a thing. This city needs $3 million, $4 million or $5 million worth of road construction and paving done. And the han. the member for St.

John's Centre (Dr.McNicholas) , of course, concerned about the roads in his district,has gone around and met with committees and fg.und out that , I suppose, he could spend $2 million, $3 million or $4 million in St. John's Center alone. But we cannot do anymore than what the city requests. If they request $1 million we say, as we do with any other municipality, we will pay 60 per cent and you will pay 40 per cent. So, Mr. Speaker, we can only provide the City of St. John's with the dollars that they request.

If they request $2 million , of course, we would see that they would get $1.2 million from the provincial government and the remainder through the city. But they P-- have only requested $1 million and I am sure hon. members, even han. members Opposite,who travel around this city will be able to see that obviously $1 milllion is going to go nowhere with respect to road reconstruction and paving in this city. And because we got involved in the Bay Bulls-Big Pond system , by the way, that was paid for federally and provincially - MR.CALLAN: Mostly federally. MR.DINN: Yes, mostly federally.

As a matter of fact, it was a DREE agreement 1 plus there were 45C1

May 13,1983 Tape No. 2142 ah-2 MR. DINN: some dollars that· ca~e through CMHC for the Bay Bulls-Big Pond water system. It cost approxi~ately $40 million , $10 million of which was from the Province. So, Mr. Speaker, besides that, over and above that, just about every year the Province in one way or another by the new capital grant system that we wo"rked out for all municipalities, the City of St. John's under that system- they never did get a municipal grant.

They got their fire department paid for and that kind of thing 1 but they nev~r did get a municipal grant • And now they do get a municipal grant brought in several years ago by - I guess I brought in the new municipal grant system, the former Minister of Municipal Affairs changed the Municipalities Act so that