Third Session, 42nd Parliament

(2022) OFFICIAL REPORT

OF DEBATES

(HANSARD)

Thursday, June 2, 2022

Afternoon Sitting

Issue No. 220

ISSN 1499-2175

The HTML transcript is provided for informational purposes only.

The PDF transcript remains the official digital version.

CONTENTS

Routine Business

Tributes

Richard James Harrington

D. Coulter

Introductions by Members

Motions Without Notice

Appointment of Special Committee to Appoint a Merit Commissioner

Hon. M. Farnworth

Introductions by Members

Orders of the Day

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Office of the Premier (continued)

E. Ross

Hon. J. Horgan

K. Falcon

T. Stone

P. Milobar

Supply Motions

Reports of resolutions from Committee of Supply

Hon. S. Robinson

Funds granted for public service

Hon. S. Robinson

Funds granted for capital expenditures, loans, investments and other financing requirements

Hon. S. Robinson

Introduction and First Reading of Bills

Bill 25 — Supply Act, 2022–2023

Hon. S. Robinson

Second Reading of Bills

Bill 25 — Supply Act, 2022–2023

Hon. S. Robinson

Committee of the Whole House

Bill 25 — Supply Act, 2022–2023

Report and Third Reading of Bills

Bill 25 — Supply Act, 2022–2023

Royal Assent to Bills

Bill 6 — Budget Measures Implementation Act, 2022

Bill 10 — Labour Relations Code Amendment Act, 2022

Bill 12 — Property Law Amendment Act, 2022

Bill 13 — Passenger Transportation Amendment Act, 2022

Bill 14 — Wildlife Amendment Act, 2022

Bill 15 — Low Carbon Fuels Act

Bill 16 — Transportation Amendment Act, 2022

Bill 17 — Miscellaneous Statutes Amendment Act, 2022

Bill 20 — Municipal Affairs Statutes Amendment Act, 2022

Bill 21 — Professional Governance Amendment Act, 2022

Bill 22 — School Amendment Act, 2022

Bill 23 — Mental Health Amendment Act, 2022

Bill 24 — Anti-Racism Data Act

Bill Pr401 — Sea to Sky University Amendment Act, 2022

Bill 25 — Supply Act, 2022–2023

Personal Statements

Apology for comments made in the House

Hon. M. Farnworth

Proceedings in the Douglas Fir Room

Committee of Supply

Estimates: Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General (continued)

M. Morris

S. Furstenau

Hon. M. Farnworth

A. Olsen

J. Tegart

M. de Jong

B. Stewart

E. Ross

T. Wat

Estimates: Legislative Assembly

Estimates: Officers of the Legislature

THURSDAY, JUNE 2, 2022

The House met at 1:02 p.m.

[Mr. Speaker in the chair.]

Routine Business

Tributes

RICHARD JAMES HARRINGTON

D. Coulter: I’d like to tell the House about a very important man in

Chilliwack, Richard James Harrington. He lived from 1944 to

He grew up in South Portland, Maine, and he came to Canada in 1968

to evade the draft. He settled where his father and uncle had

homesteaded in 1911, at Maple Creek, Saskatchewan. He went to McMaster

University. He married Margaret, a high school teacher, in 1971. They

had children, Kevin James and Jennifer Ashley Angela. He taught and

coached basketball, volleyball, wrestling, cross-country and more. His

teams won a lot of their matches.

He joined the NDP in 1979. He learned how to win campaigns by

door-knocking, and he was involved in every NDP campaign, both

provincial and federal, since 1979, even being a candidate in 1981 and

1983. He was elected as a city of Niagara Falls alderman in 1985 and

elected as a regional councillor in 1987. He was a campaign manager for

his wife, Margaret, who was elected as an MPP for Niagara Falls in

He started Play It Again Sports in 1993 in St. Catharines,

Ontario. He then moved to the Northwest Territories, taught at Baker

Lake and was a principal at Kugluktuk.

He moved to the Fraser Valley. He retired to a rural property in

Hope and then bought a house in Chilliwack. He ran for city council

there. He was a campaign manager for a successful MLA there. He was a

master sign putter-upper. He had long, long lists of where to put signs.

He was on the board of the Chilliwack Huskers football team.

I must say…. The member from Langley and myself both agree that if

it weren’t for Dick in the Fraser Valley, we wouldn’t be sitting here

today.

Introductions by Members

B. D’Eith: Today I have Meadowridge School from Maple Ridge in the precinct.

Stacy Banack and her grade 6 class are here. If we could please make them

very welcome.

[1:05 p.m.]

A. Walker: Today is a very special day for my oldest daughter. It is her 12th

birthday. Her name is Addison Rosa Walker. Her middle name is from my

grandmother, who is long missed. Could the House please celebrate her

birthday with me.

Motions Without Notice

APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE

TO APPOINT A MERIT

COMMISSIONER

Hon. M. Farnworth: I seek leave to move a motion to establish a special

committee.

Leave granted.

Hon. M. Farnworth: I move:

[That a Special Committee be appointed to select and unanimously

recommend to the Legislative Assembly the appointment of an individual

to hold office as the Merit Commissioner for the province of British

Columbia, pursuant to

section 5.01 of the Public Service

Act (R.S.B.C. 1996, c. 385).

That the Special Committee shall have the powers of a Select

Standing Committee and in addition be empowered to:

a. appoint of its number, one or more subcommittees

and to refer to such subcommittees any of the matters referred to the

Special Committee and to delegate to the subcommittees all or any of its

powers except the power to report directly to the

House;

b. sit during a period in which the House is

adjourned, during the recess after prorogation until the next following

Session and during any sitting of the House;

c. adjourn from place to place as may be convenient;

and,

d. retain such personnel as required to assist the

Special Committee.

That the Special Committee report to the House as soon as possible,

and that during a period of adjournment, the Special Committee deposit

its reports with the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly, and upon

resumption of the sittings of the House, or in the next following

Session, as the case may be, the Chair present all reports to the

House.

That the Special Committee be composed of the following Members:

Mike Starchuk (Convener), Susie Chant , Fin

Donnelly , Mike Morris , and Teresa

Wat .]

Motion approved.

T. Stone: I seek leave to make a brief introduction.

Leave granted.

Introductions by Members

T. Stone: Eighteen years ago today my first-born daughter was brought into this

world. Our lives have never been better, having Hannah Olive Stone and her

two sisters.

I just wanted to say that and wish her…. I’ll be home tomorrow

morning, and we’ll be celebrating her birthday through the weekend. I really

miss her.

I would ask the House to please join me in wishing a very happy 18th

birthday to Hannah Olive Stone.

Orders of the Day

Hon. M. Farnworth: In this chamber, I call continued estimates debate for the Office of the

Premier.

In

Section A, the Douglas Fir Room, I call continued estimates debate for

the Ministry of Public Safety and Solicitor General and, also, for the statutory

officers, Votes 1 through 10.

Committee of Supply

ESTIMATES: OFFICE OF THE

PREMIER

(continued)

The House in Committee of Supply (Section B); J. Tegart in the

chair.

The committee met at 1:09 p.m.

On Vote 11: Office of the Premier, $14,692,000

(continued) .

E. Ross: It’s with great pride that I represent Skeena in these estimates

of the Premier.

Just opening comments, in terms of what’s happening, what I see

happening in the last five years here in B.C. It is quite startling. As

a First Nation leader from 2003 to 2017, law and order was a priority

for our community. Many First Nations leaders across B.C. shared our

views. Not only across B.C. but on our reserves, we wanted more police

present, RCMP presence.

[1:10 p.m.]

Now we take a look at what’s happening in terms of law and order,

especially…. The respect for the RCMP and the respect for the police

have gone dramatically downhill.

My first question to the Premier. Do you, Premier, support the

RCMP in their efforts to keep law and order here in B.C.?

Hon. J. Horgan: Yes.

E. Ross: I ask the question because it’s hard to understand where this

government stands on law and order, especially when we’re talking about

the respect for the RCMP. More often than not the RCMP are political

fodder nowadays in terms of what’s happening in our communities as well

as out on project sites, and they’re stuck. They’re stuck in the middle.

They get blamed for everything, and a lot of it is really out of their

control.

In terms of what I’ve been listening to, not only here in

estimates, in terms of law and order and crime…. I’ve also been

listening to the questions in question period regarding crime in our

communities and our streets. For the most part, all I’ve really heard is

statistics and nothing really acknowledging some of the complaints that

are coming from citizens, whether they be business owners or citizens of

Terrace, who are actually the ones that are really suffering the impacts

of, say, prolific crime or property damage or even just threats that may

or may not lead to physical harm.

For the most part, from what we can understand, there is a

four-month study being done by a panel. It will not come to visit

Terrace, by the way, to talk to the people of Terrace who actually

brought this issue to the provincial spotlight.

To the Premier, after this four-month study is completed, how soon

will concrete action be taken against prolific offenders here in

B.C.?

Hon. J. Horgan: I thank the member for his question. I know his community very,

very well. I’ve visited it many, many times, speaking with current

elected representatives as well as citizens from the

community.

I do appreciate, very much, the sentiment. We canvassed this just

before lunch with the Leader of the Official Opposition. The sentiment

in communities is that things are getting worse. The data does not back

that up. That doesn’t mean that those sentiments aren’t heartfelt and

genuine. That’s why we appointed Doug LePard and Dr. Amanda Butler to

give us, in 120 days, recommendations on how we can square this circle

about how police reports to Crown counsel have been going down, but

sentiment in the community is that crime is going up.

[1:15 p.m.]

We need to figure out why that is. Why are police not bringing

these issues forward? Why are Crown counsel not proceeding with

prosecutions? These are circles that we’re trying to square, or squares

that we’re trying to circle, and we’re going to be needing collaboration

with Mayor Leclerc and her team.

I note that the Terrace and District Chamber of Commerce welcomed

these initial first steps, and I’m appreciative of that. Most

importantly, we need to have collaboration from the community, from

elected representatives at the regional and municipal level as well as

working with the federal government on those issues that involve the

federal government.

The review of the Police Act…. I know that members on the other

side worked together collaboratively with government members — a

unanimous report that really did get sidetracked about the question of

the RCMP contract instead of some of the more important details that

were raised in the report, based on the collaboration of members of this

House.

We want to make sure that we focus on those issues where we can

improve not just the reality in communities but also give communities a

sense that these concerns about elevated crime activity are dismissed

and discounted as quickly as we can do that. If Dr. Butler and Mr.

LePard have recommendations prior to the end of their 120-day term, we

expect them to bring those forward, and we’ll act on them as soon as we

possibly can.

E. Ross: It’s quite troubling to hear that the government — the Premier or

the Attorney General — doesn’t know why Crown counsel is not following

through with these charges. Government, at the end of the day, is in

charge. If you don’t know now….

I suspect that the government is expecting some type of revelation

to come out of the four-month study done by parties external to this

government to tell the government what is going on with Crown counsel. I

thought if anybody knew what was going on with Crown counsel, it would

be the Attorney General or the government, in this respect.

In terms of…. Maybe I didn’t quite phrase my question the right

way. Mainly, what I’m looking for is…. After the four-month study of

prolific offenders here in B.C., of course, there will be

recommendations. There should be recommendations.

I’m not only concerned about what the recommendations are about,

but I do understand the processes of government and how long that takes

and how bureaucratic that can take, never mind the politics, never mind

the virtue-signalling.

Just in terms of process, how long will it take for the government

to act on some of these recommendations, knowing that they’re going to

have to deal with Crown counsel, especially in light of all the

significant reports that have already been done, to date, on the RCMP

and policing in B.C.?

Hon. J. Horgan: Police bring reports to Crown, not the other way around. Those

reports are down over what they were in 2017. With respect to the area

in question, the MLA’s constituency, 74 percent of reports that are

received are acted upon.

I appreciate the disconnect. I’m not trying to diminish the

concern in the community that’s being raised by the member, but I do

think that we have taken tangible steps to address these issues —

firstly, by asking everyone in this House to come together as we look,

for the first time in half a century, at the Police Act.

We also start to ask ourselves: “Are we adequately funding public

safety initiatives and putting the right people in the right place? Do

we need more social workers, more psychologists? Are we sending young

RCMP recruits fresh from Depot into situations that they’re not equipped

to handle?” That involves ensuring that the RCMP and the contract that

was entered into by the former government is lived up to.

We have our responsibility as government to make sure that law

enforcement have the tools they need to protect people in communities

right across the province. So when we receive recommendations from the

investigation that’s underway, we will act.

[1:20 p.m.]

This is not an exercise of pushing the ball down the field. This

is an exercise to get to the root of the question that the member asked,

which is: why are reports not coming forward? When they do, in the case

of the Terrace region, 74 percent are approved. Why are they down, when

the sentiment in the community is that crime is up? We want answers to

those questions just as much as the member does.

The Chair: Just before the member goes forward, I would just remind you

to ask your questions through the Chair.

E. Ross: Through the Chair to the Premier, the root of the question is

basically on timing. We’ve already got a four-month delay in government

acting on anything that’s happening in Terrace. Because of the review

that was enacted by the Attorney General, we’ve got to wait four months.

Once the review is done, how long can we expect the government to take

before some meaningful action is taken on some of the recommendations

that would be put forward by this panel?

Hon. J. Horgan: In 2006, the prolific offender management pilot project was

proposed. It took two years for the former government to put in place

pilots in Kamloops, Nanaimo, Prince George, Surrey, Williams Lake and

the capital regional district. Then, four years later, those programs

were cut by the former government. That’s a two-year gap between

suggestion and implementation, and then four years to dismantle

that.

I can assure the member that we will respond much more quickly

than that.

E. Ross: When we’re talking about crime, it’s not just in our communities.

It’s on lawfully approved projects here in B.C. From 2004 to 2017, we

steered LNG proposals in B.C. — 18 of them, at a minimum — and one got

through: LNG Canada.

So far, in one

section just outside of Houston, all we’ve seen,

basically, is law and disorder. Some of those incidents didn’t even get

reported as much as we’d like to see, but we did see some of it being

reported in the media. Just recently, the Crown did commit to pressing

forward with charges on 15 offenders, who will be charged with criminal

contempt of court following protests last fall over the CGL.

Can I ask the Premier…? I do know that the last time this

injunction was broken…. The B.C. government spent at least $7 million in

enforcing an injunction the second time the RCMP had to go in there. To

date, how much has the B.C. government spent not only on injunctions but

on the protests of the CGL pipeline?

[1:25 p.m.]

Hon. J. Horgan: I’ll remind the member that the former government may well have

been stewarding a multitude of projects but had only one approved final

investment decision. That was based on interventions — by this

government and the federal government, with the proponents — to finalize

some of the more sensitive financial issues and questions that had

remained elusive to the former government. We were able to secure the

largest private sector investment in Canadian history, and I’m very

proud of that.

The member will also know that these are divisive issues in the

territory immediately adjacent to his territory. These are well-known

challenges that go back decades to the Delgamuukw-Gisday’wa decision and

all of the consequences that flow from that. It’s with some sensitivity

that we’re managing those particular First Nations questions. When it

comes to the independent Crown prosecutor, of 27 arrests between

September and November, as recently as last week, 15 charges have been

laid. I do agree with the member that there are increasing costs to

proceed with injunctive relief for investment.

I know that in my own community the Pacheedaht First Nation have

said repeatedly to people that are intruding into their territory and

disrupting economic activity in their community: “Get lost.” Yet they

persist, with some of the most extraordinary so-called civil

disobedience initiatives that I know.

I come from dissent. I’m a member of a political party that was

founded in the 1930s on dissent. So I have every respect for civil

disobedience and lawful protest against initiatives that governments or

others would bring forward. But what we’re seeing in the Wet’suwet’en

territory is not civil disobedience. It’s lawlessness, which is

evidenced by 15 charges.

I would also argue that in Pacheedaht territory, just north of

Port Renfrew, in my constituency, the same holds true. I engage with the

RCMP regularly on these issues when I’m travelling around the province,

and I know how front-line officers and constables feel about being

called to enforce injunctions in areas where there is absolute

lawlessness and a complete disregard for civil behaviour.

I don’t disagree with the sentiments the member is bringing

forward, but I also need to reinforce that if we were living in a

community where politicians were directing police, I would have a big,

big problem with that. I suspect that the member would, too. Lastly,

with respect to the costs, the estimates for Public Safety are just down

the hall. You can get those details there.

E. Ross: The question was: apart from the original $7 million that

was spent on enforcing the injunction the second time around, the first

time this happened, how much has the government spent on the injunction

to date? That was the question.

I have no intention of getting into, really, what’s happening on

the ground down out there in their protest, because we know what’s

happening out there. In fact, the Pre­mier forgot one word:

violence. Threats. In a case, they were threatening violence against

Aboriginal workers who were on that site that one midnight.

This goes back to the original statement that I asked the Premier

to make, on whether or not he believed in law and order. The Premier

said yes — a one-word answer: yes. I think everybody in this House would

actually answer that until we leave this room. This is what puts the

RCMP in a very bad spot.

The disrespect for law and order in this province is getting to

scary dimensions, not only for citizens in Vancouver but also for

workers out on the pipeline. I already said the police are stuck in this

political middle ground. They’ve got no real place to go. They don’t

have government support. If they do, it’s vague.

I do understand the LNG story, and the Premier with the NDP…. I do

understand you had to oppose LNG. You had to show up to protests. You

had to sign those anti-LNG declarations. You had to, because it was

politics, and you were the official opposition.

The Chair: I would remind the member to speak through the Chair,

please.

[1:30 p.m.]

E. Ross: Through the Chair.

Now you’re government. You keep claiming that you do respect law

and order, but in this case, this government is actually playing both

sides of the fence. In what’s happening up there, I’m really concerned

for the pipeline workers. I’m really concerned for the people in the

neighbouring communities. I’m really concerned for the Aboriginals, not

only in our communities but also on the pipeline site itself.

On December 3, 2021, one of your members, the MLA for Stikine, who

is now the Minister of Municipal Affairs, wrote a letter, to

Commissioner Brenda Lucki, criticizing the RCMP actions on that pipeline

route. Not once did this member mention that there are provincial

processes for oversight, that there are independent bodies to review

this type of activity. So I don’t understand the letter in the first

place, other than for political points.

In this case here, what is the Premier willing to do to provide

law and order and safety, not only for Aboriginal and non-Aboriginal

communities but also for safety for our workers on the CGL pipeline,

such as at the location of the protest outside of Houston?

Hon. J. Horgan: There is a lot to unpack there.

Firstly, I don’t recall at any time signing any documents that

were antagonistic to development of natural resources in British

Columbia. We always have had concerns about ensuring that there are some

pretty key priorities that are realized — firstly, protecting our air,

water and land, which is, I think, a sentiment shared by all members of

this House.

We wanted to ensure there was a fair return to the resource that

belongs to British Columbians. We wanted to ensure that there were local

employment opportunities. Most importantly, we wanted to ensure that

Indigenous people and underrepresented populations had access to skills

training and other opportunities that flow from the projects that we

would see achieved and realized through the various processes we already

have in place in British Columbia.

[1:35 p.m.]

I do believe that there is disagreement in this place about the

role and function of various components of our approval processes and

how decisions are made. That is not confined to one side or the other.

There are divisions within our own families, whether it be on this side

of the House or on that side of the House, and the member knows that

full well.

I don’t believe there’s a lot of value in relitigating those

discussions, but I will say that when the RCMP is asked to enforce an

injunction — not by the government but by the courts — if there is a

need for further resources, the RCMP can and will often ask the

government for assistance, and that is always provided. But directing

the RCMP, directing interventions, is not the role and function of the

Solicitor General, which instead is to ensure that if there are requests

for further resources, those resources are made available. That has been

the case, not just for this government but for previous governments as

well.

With respect to the MLA for Stikine’s correspondence, that was

written not as a minister, but on his MLA letterhead. I believe there’s

a distinction, and it’s important that we draw this out. There are

members on that side of the House that have had the dual responsibility

of being members of the executive council, cabinet ministers, as well as

ensuring that they’re representing their constituents to the best of

their ability, even if they disagree with them. The member will know

that.

I know that members on that side understand that there are,

oftentimes, petitions that are tabled here that are absolutely

diametrically opposed to the individual who’s putting it on the table,

but that’s the not the point. The point is to represent and reflect the

views of your constituents. With the MLA for Stikine at that time, he

wrote the letter at the behest of his constituents insisting upon him

doing so. He advised them of other complaint opportunities that they had

available to them. They insisted that he take that action. They were

blockading his office. They were withholding services from other

citizens in the community.

He wrote the letter, advising those that were blocking access to

his office that he had done so, but again repeating to them that there

were other courses that they could follow. I believe that’s an

appropriate course of action for a private member to take — not as a

member of executive council but as a private member. From time to time,

there are issues that emerge in our offices that we disagree with, but

it’s our obligation to listen to all of our constituents, wherever they

come from, whatever their perspectives are, and then judiciously

determine how we can best meet their needs. I believe that’s what was

undertaken at that time.

Again, I’ll remind the member that if he wants more details about

the budget of the Minister of Public Safety and Solicitor General, he is

debating that right now down the hall.

K. Falcon: Look, on this situation where we’ve got chaos in communities,

crime out of control, people not feeling safe in their community, 42

percent of calls not even being answered at the VPD because they’re just

so overwhelmed…. In light of all of this information that was coming

out, we saw on May 4 that the Attorney General stepped forward and said:

“Don’t worry. I’m going to be announcing a creative plan.” So you can

imagine….

I’ve gotten used to this government. Whenever they get into

trouble, they always have an announcement. But part of me hoped that

surely, a government in its second term, and an Attorney General that’s

been there for over five years, actually might know a thing or two about

the issue and probably has been working on it for years, and I can’t

wait to hear about the creative plan.

On May 6, much to our collective shock and disappointment, the

plan was: “We’re going to do a four-month study.” This is so classic.

They don’t know how to execute and get things done. They don’t need to

study the issue for another four months. It’s just failed leadership. I

looked, and I said: “Well, the way our system works is that the Premier

provides mandate letters to ministers. The mandate letters are there to

set direction and focus on what the Premier thinks is important for that

minister to follow through on.”

I had a look at the mandate letter of the Attorney General. There

are 14 points that are itemized there that he wants the Attorney General

to focus on, yet absolutely nothing, nothing, about street safety,

nothing about random stranger attacks, nothing about the issues that

people are dealing with every day. In fact, the only thing that talked

about charging was that there is a bullet here that said: “Bring in

right-to-charge legislation.” I got hopeful for a moment, I must tell

you — just a brief moment.

[1:40 p.m.]

“Bring in right-to-charge legislation that will enable the

installation of electric vehicle charging infrastructure in more strata

and apartment buildings.” That’s as close as we got to actually charging

anyone or having anything in the mandate letter that talked about

actually charging people. And we wonder why we’ve got a situation that

is out of control. More studies. More talk. More announcements. More

disastrous results for the residents of B.C.

I’m going to move into talking about health care, because this is

the issue that is seizing the attention of the public in British

Columbia. We have a situation in British Columbia that is as dire as I

have ever seen it. In fairness, I’ve been a Minister of Health, so I

know, as a Minister of Health, that it’s a challenging ministry. You’re

always going to have issues. But never have I heard the kind of feedback

I hear everywhere I go in this province — from doctors, nurses,

front-line workers — that tell me that this situation is literally

imploding.

It’s not just me that believes this. I am not being partisan about

this. This is a very widely held view amongst the public because they

are experiencing how the system is failing them each and every day. We

can look right here in the greater Victoria area for no further evidence

of that. But this is also been confirmed by the Premier.

I’m going to quote the Premier. On April 26 of this year, in the

Vancouver Sun : “Time spent talking about new programs while

existing programs are crumbling, I think is wasted time.” and “It’s not

just about GP. It’s about nurses, nurse practitioners. It’s right across

the board.” This is a crisis. Another one, only two days later, on April

28, on CBC On the Island . Quoting the Premier: “We have a

crisis in health care. It’s not just in the primary care setting. It’s

acute care, cancer care and a range of other areas.” In short, it’s

everything. The entire system is near collapse.

Now, I know that the Premier likes to point fingers. I’m waiting

for him to say: “Oh, it was just because the government in your day cut

health care.” I’ll put it on the record that when I first got elected in

2001, the health care budget was just under $10 billion. When I

left….

In fact, in 2017, when they formed government, it was just over

$20 billion. That’s double. The health care budget doubled. I want all

the listeners out there to know one thing that I did learn as a Health

Minister: if the answer to the health care problems was more money, they

would have been solved a long time ago. It is not about more money. If

it was about more money, everything would have been solved by

now.

The problem is that we have a government that measures their

success in how much money they’re throwing into the system, and they’re

not measuring what they’re getting out of the system. What we have to do

is have a government that has the managerial skill set and background to

know that you’ve got to measure outcomes, because that’s how you should

be held accountable. Not from what you’re putting in, but what you’re

getting out. What we’re getting out right now are the worst results

we’ve ever seen in every measurement. We’re failing people. That’s why

this is so important.

I want to just simply ask the Premier: at a time when one in five

British Columbians cannot access a family doctor, at a time when they

then go to a walk-in clinic and they find they’ve got the longest wait

times in the country…. Wait times, by the way, have increased 50 percent

here at the same time as they’ve improved in the rest of the country.

The rest of the country, by the way, was dealing with the same

challenges this government had to deal with.

My question to the Premier is: why do we have the worst wait

times, the worst connection to doctors, and why are things getting worse

here while they’re getting better everywhere else in the

country?

[1:45 p.m.]

Hon. J. Horgan: Before I address the last question raised by the Leader of the

Opposition, I just want to do some cleanup on some of the public safety

issues that were left hanging.

There was reference to a letter from mayors across major urban

centres. I want to just read some of the reviews from the mayor of

Kelowna, the mayor of Victoria, the mayor of Prince George.

Lyn Hall said:

“The Urban Mayors Caucus, which is 13 of us mayors from across the

province, put a proposal of requests to the provincial government. As

you know, they’ve acted very quickly on it. They have two very qualified

individuals that are going to be doing a review of prolific offenders

throughout our province, coming back with recommendations within 120

days. I think it’s going to be, really, a good part of the basis of

where individual municipalities can start to work from, and I’m talking

about the police agencies that are all there for law enforcement by

officers.”

That’s from Prince George.

Mayor Basran said: “We’re encouraged by the quick action by the

province on launching this review to identify provincially actionable

solutions that will have a meaningful impact for our residents,

businesses and our police officers.”

Lastly, Mayor Helps, here in Victoria: “What we’re seeing here

today is a government that profoundly cares about our communities. We

met with the Attorney General, and he said this was a problem in

communities. Our small businesses are struggling to recover from the

pandemic. If the pandemic wasn’t difficult enough, we’re also seeing an

upswing in a very small number of people causing havoc in our

downtowns.”

Just at noon, the Leader of the Opposition said that he supported

independent investigations and thought they were a good idea. That was

at noon. It’s ten to two, and independent investigations aren’t such a

good idea.

With respect to mandate letters, the mandate letter for the

Minister of Public Safety, who is participating in his estimates just

down the hall, says the following: “Make streets safer from guns and

gangs. Increase support for initiatives that are proven to protect and

reduce crime.” So the member was looking in the wrong mandate letter

when it comes to public safety. I would suggest that if he has more

questions in that regard, or his team does, the Minister of Public

Safety is just down the hall.

With respect to the challenges in our health care system, I have

acknowledged that we have difficulties. But I have also, in the same

breath, applauded those public health providers, whether they be care

aides, registered nurses, nurse practitioners, doctors, surgeons, Health

Sciences Association professionals, for all the work they do to keep

people well — myself included.

So 100,000 people moved to British Columbia last year, the largest

number of people in over 60 years. That puts a strain on a range of

services that are provided by government and also puts a strain on our

economy. We always want to see more people coming. That stimulates more

activity. But it also costs more for housing, more for education, more

for health care, more for child care, and on the list goes.

We have been working on building out our primary care networks.

The Minister of Health has talked repeatedly about that over the past

number of years. The fundamental challenge we have is a lot of people

accessing the system.

[1:50 p.m.]

The member knows. As a former Health Minister, he launched a

series of initiatives that did not meet the objective. It did not

increase the number of doctors. It did not reduce patients that were not

connected to a GP. They were unsuccessful.

We need to build on that. We need to continue to try and find best

ways to move forward. I believe we can do that by having more resources

that we can distribute equitably from our health authorities. That’s why

the Canada health transfer is so important.

That’s why I’m surprised that, as a former Finance Minister and a

former Health Minister…. When the federal government diminished the

value of the Canada health transfer back when he was on this side of the

House, the only voice across the country of all of the provinces, the

only voice that applauded the government was the government of British

Columbia — not my government but their government.

K. Falcon: Just to clean up the mess of the earlier comments, as the Premier

says…. I’m paraphrasing. I’m not sure how he words it — something like

that, cleaning up something.

I’d just like to note for the record that in our entire time in

government, we certainly didn’t have the mayors of the largest cities in

the province sending letters pleading with us to please, please do

something about the crisis in criminality that is raging throughout our

communities. That’s something that we never had to deal with.

The Premier knows that we have a massive, massive staffing

shortage. There are 10,084 fewer workers in hospitals since the NDP

formed government in 2017. Those are Statistics Canada’s numbers. The

Minister of Health tried to say it was false. The media tweeted out

afterwards, just so the members know, that that’s actually

accurate.

Interjection.

K. Falcon: I have…. No. I can hear a voice. I can hear a voice, and it’s not

the Premier’s voice. It’s the voice of…. I don’t know. It sounds like a

Minister of Health who might be a bit sensitive about this.

Through to the Premier, who I’m actually doing the estimates for….

I wish I had time to do the estimates of the Ministry of Health, I can

assure you of that, but I do want to note that he likes to point out

that they’ve hired 30,000 people. Yeah. They’ve hired 30,000 people, all

right, just not in the places where you need them — in the hospital

settings, providing the care that British Columbians aren’t getting

right now as the system teeters, to use the Premier’s own words. As the

system is teetering and imploding upon itself, we don’t have the workers

we need.

Will the Premier address the crisis and staff shortages in our

health care system delivery in the hospitals now?

Hon. J. Horgan: Just to remind the member…. I know he represents a constituency in

Vancouver, but he’ll remember that in 2007, then Mayor Dianne Watts was

urging the then B.C. Liberal government to take action for prolific

offenders. That led to the pilot programs I referred to earlier that

were two years to stand up and then dismantled four years

later.

Again in 2013, the very same former mayor, Dianne Watts, who will

be familiar to many on that side of the House, was appalled at the

increase of violent crime in her community and demanded that the

provincial government do something about it. If the member doesn’t

recall interactions with the mayor of Surrey, I can’t do much about

that, but there they are.

[1:55 p.m.]

With respect to the head count in the health care system, I do

know, and I’m confident that the Leader of the Opposition and his team

are aware, that Stats Canada has reclassified how they count, and

therefore, you’ve jumped on a number that is just not correct. At the

same time, the official opposition is saying we keep hiring too many

people. There are too many people. They’re also saying: “Why haven’t you

hired more?”

Let’s just go through the numbers that are collected by the public

service, and I’m sure that, perhaps, the Leader of the Opposition wants

to fire all of them, too. This has been collected in the same way, not

just for this government but for previous governments, going back for as

long as I suspect the public service has been keeping track of how many

employees they’re responsible for. The head count in 2018, 184,000; the

head count in 2020, 190,000; the head count in 2022, 222,000. That’s an

increase of 38,000, a 20 percent increase.

Breaking that down by licensed practical nurses, 17 percent growth

in that period. Nurse practitioners, 40 percent growth. Registered

nurses, 11 percent. Family physicians, up 357. So after the GP for Me

program was well and truly put to one side, we started to see some real

progress — 357 family physicians, 5.6 percent growth. Social workers,

374; that’s 22 percent growth. Diagnostic sonographers, 121 added;

that’s 21 percent growth.

There is more data I’m happy to share with the member, but despite

this growth for health providers and the delivery of health services in

British Columbia, we continue to struggle. Coming out of the pandemic,

we’ve gone through this as well. We’ve seen absenteeism increase,

because we have urged people who are not well to stay away from work.

This is something that I thought was a given, that people understood

that as we come out of a global pandemic, we do not want to bring

COVID-19 into the workplace.

We’ve seen an increase of absenteeism, I think some 14,000 to

18,000 per week on any given day in the health care system. That’s

leading to strain. That’s leading to challenges in the delivery of

services. I’ve been articulating that publicly.

The Leader of the Opposition just read some quotes from me,

acknowledging that we have a challenge, but what’s missing from that

acknowledgment is that we are taking practical steps to address these

issues. We need to have a reboot and a revisioning of how we deliver

these services. That’s why it’s so important that the federal government

work not just with British Columbia but premiers and provinces right

across the country.

It also requires us to figure out how we are going to meet the

needs in our communities. A hundred thousand more people came here last

year, and there will be more coming. A $400 million investment in

Kamloops just the other day, to stabilize 320 jobs. Microsoft is

occupying a 19-storey building in downtown Vancouver. The economy is

booming. That means more people will come here.

I appreciate that the Leader of the Opposition is unhappy about

the fact that we landed the largest private sector investment in B.C.

history. I can understand that he’s unhappy with the fact that the

economy continues to grow, and the biggest challenge we have is

attracting more workers. The more that come, the better we are in terms

of delivering to people in the economy, but the more people that come,

the more health care providers we’re going to need — the more teachers,

the more child care providers. That’s what we’re building out — a

province that keeps everybody employed, keeps everybody focused on

moving forward and leaves no one behind.

K. Falcon: Yes, well, the Premier can have his wonderful oratorical moments

here, but the fact of the matter is there’s been flat or negative growth

in every year for five years in health care workers, while other

provinces are seeing growth. That’s the bottom line. I wonder…. The

reason could very well be that they have no plan around a health and

human resource strategy.

The Premier said: “Sure we do.” So that’s good, because we haven’t

seen it. We certainly are waiting for it, because in the NDP 2020

platform, it included the promise of “a comprehensive health care human

resources strategy, including credential recognition.”

[S. Chandra Herbert in the chair.]

That sounds encouraging. Then, in the spring of ’21, the minister

said the government would announce a health human resources plan in the

fall of 2021. That sounded good at the time, too. Again, really good at

announcements.

[2:00 p.m.]

Then the minister further stated: “Action is being taken, and the

full health human resources plan will be available soon.” That was

question period on April 27 of this year. Now we understand that their

health human resources strategy that the Premier just said is done….

We’ve now heard that they’ve confirmed there will not be a strategy till

at least the fall of this year.

Maybe that explains why there’s a critical health care worker

shortage in virtually every facility across this province. Frankly, if

this makes the Premier uncomfortable and makes the Minister of Health

uncomfortable, too bad, because that’s what the public is experiencing

every single day: the fact that there’s nobody there. As we heard

earlier in question period, hospitals shut down. “Just come back

later.”

That is not delivering a service, and it’s because there’s no

workers there. The Premier mentioned the Royal Inland Hospital, which we

started and is going to be open in a couple of weeks. Well, that’s great

— another empty building that the NDP can talk about, because it will be

empty. There are critical staff shortages up at Royal Inland Hospital

right now.

It’s probably why, when the Minister of Health lurched forward

with this plan of urgent and primary care centres — I think they’ve got

over two dozen of them now — there’s virtually no one staffing them.

More empty buildings, more empty facilities that have nobody in them,

where nobody can get proper services.

Will the Premier confirm that he’s going to…? Maybe it would have

been wise to have a health human resources strategy before the Minister

of Health went out and launched a bunch of urgent and primary care

centres that have no people in them.

[2:05 p.m.]

Hon. J. Horgan: The Minister of Health has been engaged with his team to build out

our health human resources strategy.

Again, I’ll have to remind the member — he was in the private

sector at the time — that we had a pretty rough year in 2021, gripped by

a global pandemic; the consequences of climate change being very

apparent here in British Columbia, with record heat levels and

temperatures across the province; fires; having the community of Merritt

evacuated because of fires in the summer, and then evacuated in the fall

because of floods.

In the midst of all of that, we had the omicron wave — which,

again, sent us into a significantly challenging position with respect to

keeping services open in our acute care facilities. That’s why having

330 full-time-equivalents in 27 urgent and primary care centres was so

important. Family practitioners were doing more virtual appointments

than appointments in person, and as we have come out of the pandemic,

there has been a demand, rightly so, by patients, by British Columbians,

to see primary care providers. That’s why having the UPCCs with 330

staff in place is so critically important.

The minister is going to be bringing forward the plan in the

coming months. It has already been essentially completed, but we want to

make sure we’ve got everything in order. The Leader of the Opposition

can have some comfort that they’re working aggressively on this. Since

2017, we have opened 60 new residency positions for physicians. That’s

about $163 million a year to support the residency training

program.

We’ve seen a range of initiatives — 600 actual doctors are now

here in B.C., a 10 percent increase, outpacing the population growth

during that first period. But we’ve had, again, record in-migration from

across Canada and around the world. That’s a good thing. That’s positive

for our economy, but it does put strains on our system.

As I’ve said now several times, we’ve had a level of absenteeism

as a result of COVID-19, and this is something that the public health

officer has encouraged — through order, initially, and then by guidance,

most recently: “If you’re not well, you shouldn’t come to work.” That

puts a significant strain on the delivery of services. We’re conscious

of that. We’re working as hard as we can to relieve those pressures. As

we come out of COVID-19, as we see more and more people graduating from

the spaces that we’ve created since 2017, we’ll have more staff and

resources.

[2:10 p.m.]

The new program for foreign-trained nurses, for example, which was

just announced a few weeks ago, will have a significant impact —

positively received, I believe, by the official opposition critic at the

time. I’ll have to check. Things seem to be different over there these

days.

I’m confident that if we continue to put our shoulder to the wheel

and focus on the needs of British Columbians, we’ll be able to address

these challenges. This is a desirable place to be. Our health care

system is struggling, and it’s a result of a global pandemic and some of

the most unprecedented seasonal issues, whether they be floods or fires,

that British Columbians have ever seen.

K. Falcon: I would just say to the member: welcome to government. There’s

always a crisis when you’re in government. We had to deal with global

economic meltdowns, SARS, H1N1, forest fires. These kinds of things

happen. It doesn’t mean the whole of government comes to a freezing halt

and that you don’t do basic work, like having a health and human

resources plan, for goodness sakes.

It might have been, at least, sensible that before the Minister of

Health lurched out there and started opening up all these urgent and

primary care centres, they had actually had a health and human resource

plan to think about how they might staff them.

It’s not just me saying this, by the way. I’ll quote Dr. Peter

Gladstone: “You could put a UPCC,” which is an urgent and primary care

centre, “on every street corner, but they’ll be of less use than a Tim

Hortons unless they’ve got doctors in them.” That’s a Victoria

cardiologist.

Dr. Ramneek Dosanjh: “Our primary system is at great risk of

collapsing.” I can tell you this. Listeners should know this. When I was

Health Minister, when we were in government, health care wasn’t perfect.

I acknowledge that for sure. But we didn’t have hundreds of doctors

protesting out in front of the Legislature, saying to the government,

pleading with the government: “The system is failing. It’s not working.”

That didn’t happen while we were there.

Here’s the problem with these urgent and primary care centres that

the minister is so happy to announce, that are opening up everywhere and

sit empty. They are literally empty. They’re often already at capacity

first thing in the morning and not taking patients. A lot of good that

does for someone trying to come and get care.

Richmond’s primary care facility has been running for three years.

It’s supposed to have 32 equivalent physicians. Today it’s got one. In

Abbotsford, their UPCC has only half a doctor when there’s supposed to

be six. In the North Shore primary care network, there are supposed to

be 17.5 full-time-equivalent physicians. There are three. In the South

Okanagan Similkameen primary care network, there are seven nurse

practitioners but zero doctors out of the six that are supposed to be

approved as full-time-equivalent physicians. In the White Rock and South

Surrey primary care network, there’s only a third of the doctors that

there’s supposed to be.

As Dr. Gladstone put it very well, Premier, you can put these on

every corner, but they might as well be Tim Hortons if there’s nobody in

them. What’s the Premier going to do to actually fix this, even though

they still have yet to come out with a health and human resource

plan?

[2:15 p.m.]

Hon. J. Horgan: Again, I appreciate that the Leader of the Opposition was not here

through COVID-19, but to compare it to H1N1 and SARS is just not at all

possible.

We had to bring in a single-site order because of the contract

stripping that the former government did when they came to power,

despite saying that they wouldn’t do it. That meant having a health care

assistant program that hired some 6,600 people for infection control in

our long-term-care facilities. We hired 1,500 contact tracers. These

were health care workers that were assisting us with monitoring and

tracking the spread of COVID-19. The largest vaccination program in our

history was carried out with results that were second to none in the

country.

To suggest that we weren’t focused on making sure we had health

care workers where we needed them when we needed them is just

disingenuous. I appreciate that it is the function of the Leader of the

Opposition to create tensions, but when I think of the amount of work

that went into getting us all through COVID-19…. It wasn’t just a bump

along the road. It wasn’t just part and parcel of being government.

Nothing like this has happened before. I appreciate that government’s

responsibility is to address issues as they emerge. That’s the whole

point.

Circumstances. “Circumstances, my dear boy” is what Macmillan

famously said when asked about how he would be remembered. You deal with

issues as they come. I appreciate that the Leader of the Opposition

fully understands that. But I don’t believe he fully understands or

appreciates the consequences of COVID-19 on the delivery of health care

services. Going from in-person visits to virtual visits was

transformative. The fact that we were able to do that is fantastic, but

as we come out of it, it’s a challenge. It’s not about snapping your

fingers. You can’t go from “I’m going to just log on and talk to my GP”

to “I’m standing in line, waiting to see my GP,” when they, the GPs, are

still at home on the computer.

We need to come forward. We have been working with the Doctors of

B.C. The deputy of Health has been engaged since the minister and I met

with the doctors a few weeks ago — regular meetings to find a way

forward that meets the needs of Doctors of B.C. and meets the needs of

the patients of British Columbia. We have been aggressively addressing

challenges in the health care system over the past two years.

At the same time, we build out a human resource strategy to meet

the needs going forward. I inventoried, for the member, the number of

people that have been hired, the number of UPCCs. The fact that the

member made reference to the Richmond facility — it is fully

operational. The numbers that he used were pre-April 25, when we started

in earnest to meet the needs of people of Richmond. As we phase it

through — this isn’t shocking; this isn’t surprising — we issue press

releases.

I remember…. I’m not sure if other members will remember it as

vividly as I do, but whenever the former government was in trouble, you

could always count on a liquor announcement. It seemed like clockwork.

Every time there was a little bit of a bad headline…. I’m even getting a

smile from the member for Kamloops–South Thompson. Every time there was

a little bit of a challenge, oh, there’s going to be a liquor

announcement.

We have been announcing changes and transformation in health care.

That’s what British Columbians want. Liquor changes may well have got

you to the line in the old days, but today people want services, and

we’re delivering on that.

K. Falcon: I honestly don’t remember the liquor announcements. It was

probably more along the lines of: “I think I need a drink.” I rather

doubt it was….

Interjection.

K. Falcon: Were they liquor announcements?

Interjection.

K. Falcon: Okay. I’ll have to look it up. I was never the minister

responsible for liquor. Maybe that’s the issue.

Just going back to the challenge that we’ve got in British

Columbia with doctors protesting on the front lawns of the Legislature,

one in five British Columbians — almost 1 million of our neighbors and

friends — don’t have access to a family doctor. Without that access to a

family doctor, they’re required to go to clinics, and they face the

longest wait times in the country. Then if they go to the hospitals…. It

is not unusual at Vancouver General Hospital to be finding yourself in

an eight-, nine-, ten-hour wait trying to seek basic

services.

[2:20 p.m.]

Now, when we were in government, I remember, in our very first

term, we realized that because the prior government had reduced the

number of medical training spaces as a result of their belief that that

would save money for the system, the first thing we did — recognizing it

takes seven, eight years to train doctors — was more than double the

number of first-year medical student training spaces from 128 to

We did that knowing that it was going to take years for those

young women and men to get trained up, but it was about planning ahead.

That’s what you do in a system; you plan ahead. You make decisions that

anticipate the growth in population and the other things that the

Premier talks about.

We also recognized…. Because nurses were going to be in demand, we

added 4,800 training spaces for nurses to make sure. Again, nurses’

training takes multiple years. They’re highly skilled individuals.

You’ve got to plan for that, knowing that you’re going to be facing

pressures down the road.

Now, we heard…. The Minister of Health often talks about all these

retirees. Apparently, they’ve just discovered that some doctors are

older. That information is widely available from day one of a minister

assuming an office — to look and see very quickly: “Oh gee. We’ve got a

good chunk of the doctors there that could be retiring in the next

couple of years, better get on training more doctors.” That would seem

like a pretty logical thing to do. But here’s this NDP government, in

their second term, not adding a single new training space.

But wait. There was an announcement, of course. There was an

announcement on October 13, 2020. The NDP news release promised: “B.C.

NDP to Launch Second Medical School at SFU Surrey Campus. Plan Will Mean

More Doctors…Trained and Working in B.C.” The release quoted the current

Minister of Health saying that the first graduating class could be

2023-2024.

Well, not surprisingly, there are no medical training spaces at

SFU Surrey. I wonder if the Premier is going to deal with this broken

promise.

[2:25 p.m.]

Hon. J. Horgan: With respect to the commitment we made a little over a year and a

half ago to bring a second facility into the Lower Mainland, we have

provided planning money to SFU to work on that plan. We’re hopeful that

that’ll be coming forward in the fall.

With respect to registered nurses, when we came to government, we

were tenth in the country, per capita, for registered nurses per

patients. Since then, we have lead the country in the increase in the

number of RNs that we’ve brought into play.

With respect to the 60 new annual residency positions, this is

critically important not just for docs coming out of medical school but

also for internationally trained doctors. We want to make sure that

those credentials are recognized here, and one of the key barriers is an

inability to get that residency requirement underway. So by reducing

those barriers, by creating more spaces, we’re able to bring on those

very valued health care professionals that are not able to practise

because of where they got their education.

Similarly, we have in this place members whose children have gone

to foreign lands to get their MD, and coming back to British Columbia

has been elusive. I know that they’re practising medicine in other

provinces in Canada. That’s motivation for me, certainly, to ensure that

for the kids of British Columbians who go somewhere else to get an

education — as I did, and as many others have — that coming back to

British Columbia is not an impairment, but in fact, people are

welcome.

These are important initiatives that we have been working on. I’m

very proud of the work we have done to recruit and retain more health

care providers. In every category, we’ve seen an increase. Certainly, a

net 900 new family physicians in British Columbia since we got here, and

many, many more to bring on.

We have a lot more work to do, but we won’t get it done by yelling

at each other. We’ll get it done by collaborating and making sure we’re

on the right track together.

K. Falcon: The Premier, the Minister of Health were all employees of the NDP

government back in the ’90s. If they check the record, they’ll

remember…. I’ve been around long enough that I’m having flashbacks now.

They can look and check and remind themselves that they eliminated 1,600

full-time nursing positions back then. Didn’t add one new medical space

back then, not one, and actually banned new family doctors from coming

into the system, which is why we inherited such a very challenging

situation to get out of.

We’ve got seven NDP MLAs in Surrey, two of them are ministers, and

I can’t understand why they can’t move something along a promise that

was made two years ago to move forward with medical training spaces at

SFU Surrey. I looked in the budget — Budget 2021, Budget 2022 — looking

for the SFU medical school dollars. Nothing to be found.

That tells me there’s going to be nothing happening in the term of

this government. But it’s certainly a disappointment to residents of

Surrey. It just ranks up there frankly with….

Interjection.

K. Falcon: I overheard the whispering about a Surrey hospital. Give me a

break. I hope we talk about the Surrey hospital — the non-existent

Surrey hospital that they’ve been promising for five years now, with no

money, no capital dollars in the budget for it, no maternity

ward.

Interjections.

K. Falcon: Yeah. I read the budget. It’s two million bucks. You won’t even

get drawings out of that. I can tell you.

Interjections.

The Chair: Members. Members, one member has the floor.

Please proceed.

K. Falcon: Thank you, Chair.

Since they’ve raised it, we also found out in estimates that the

Minister of Health is not even going to have a maternity ward at this

new hospital. Imagine that. The fastest-growing city almost in the

country, and they’re not going to have a maternity ward.

In fact, the minister actually tried to shut down the maternity

ward at Peace Arch Hospital — the maternity ward where my daughter Rose

was born. Only in the face of a huge backlash did he back off this

ill-thought-out plan to shut down the maternity ward at Peace Arch

Hospital.

Now what they’re doing…. Although it’s technically open, they’re

diverting people, young mothers about to have their babies, off to

Langley most of the time anyhow. Then they’re going to open up,

apparently, sixth year of the promise, this hospital, supposedly, in

Surrey — this second hospital — with $2 million in the budget that we’re

never going to see anything get started on that in the term of the

government either.

I guess, Premier, look, in the midst of an unbelievable

crisis….

The Chair: If I might remind the member. Just to be clear, if we refer to

other people by their titles or their names, the only time that is,

is me. I know the member has been away from the House for a while,

but I don’t want to have to keep interrupting.

[2:30 p.m.]

If we could just…. The Chair is the person the member names.

If he wants to refer to the Premier or anyone else, it would be “the

Premier” or “the Minister for so-and-so,” just to be clear. It’s

important we follow the rules of this House. Thank you.

K. Falcon: So to be clear, “the Premier” as opposed to “Premier.” Okay. I’ll

try and remember the word “the.”

Will the Premier, through the Chair, deal with the fact that we

have an enormous shortage of doctors — that they were well aware, and

must have been for years, that we had a number of doctors retiring? Will

he accelerate this long-promised medical campus at SFU

Surrey?

Hon. J. Horgan: As I said with respect to the earlier question a few moments ago

with respect to the new medical training facility in Surrey, that work

is underway. There will be more to say about that down the

road.

I have to go back to the new Surrey hospital, because it is the

single largest health care contribution in B.C. history from the

provincial government, $1.66 billion — which included, of course,

securing land. Why did we have to secure land, Members? Why is that? Let

me just read to other members of the committee what the then Finance

Minister had to say about the need for a Surrey hospital — in the

fastest-growing community in the whole province, I just heard from the

other side, and I agree with that.

This was what we heard in the budget speech in 2012, just a decade

ago: “The province owns a 15-acre site in Surrey just off Highway 10. We

were holding on to it in the event a new Surrey Memorial Hospital was

needed. With almost $600 million in expansion at the Surrey Memorial

Hospital now underway at its current location, the land is

surplus.”

Now, I want to pause there for a moment, because I don’t know too

many people in the development community that think that holding land in

British Columbia is a bad economic bargain. We hear them talk about the

high cost of housing, and I agree with that, but why is that, hon.

Members? Why is that? Because of the high cost of land. But the

development community Finance Minister of the day said: “Rather than

letting it sit there costing taxpayers money, we intend to sell it to

let the private sector use it to generate new economic

activity.”

[2:35 p.m.]

Far-thinking governments in the past secured land for public

purposes, which governments do all the time, hon. Members. For those who

have just arrived since 2020, oftentimes governments look at the

portfolio of challenges ahead — do we need more schools, hospitals,

rights of way to build out our infrastructure, to move people around? —

and governments make purchases, not for the moment but for the long

term. It’s only shortsighted governments that would say: “Let’s not hold

on to land in British Columbia. Let’s sell it.”

Here we are now, ten years later, having to buy land to build a

second hospital, which will have the fourth cancer clinic in the Lower

Mainland, in Fraser Health. This is critically important. We will have

the largest population in the Lower Mainland in Surrey by 2041. We need

to build out. We need to provide more services, and we need a second

hospital — $1.66 billion. It’s in the budget. It’s going to be built,

despite the best efforts of those on that side of the House — by giving

away the land to those who support them instead of investing in the

people of British Columbia.

K. Falcon: I would just remind the Premier, and I’m glad he referenced it, of

the fact that we did do an almost $600 million expansion of the Surrey

Memorial Hospital, and we did open up the Surrey Jim Pattison Outpatient

Centre. That’s actually something that got done that people get the

benefit of. It wasn’t just an announcement. It was actually getting

stuff done.

Once again, I am forced to listen to the Premier make an

announcement, as they’ve done repeatedly. The Premier says they will

have a $1.6 billion hospital. However, as a former Finance Minister,

when you look in the budget, what you will see is $2 million — 2 million

bucks. I can tell you that that doesn’t even get you the design drawings

that you’re going to need for this $1.6 billion hospital they keep

promising.

As for the lands at 152 and No. 10, those were ten kilometres away

from the existing hospital. They were surplus because Fraser Health

didn’t want to build a hospital at a site where they’ve got poor transit

connections that’s only less than ten kilometres away from their

existing facility. That’s why it was surplus.

The bottom line is this. In the fastest-growing community in the

province, and one of the fastest in the country…. You would think that

if they’re going to promise something more than a glorified urgent care

centre, it would have a maternity ward, in the fastest-growing community

that births the most babies. That would seem pretty sensible.

Why on earth, in the fastest-growing community, is there no

maternity ward in this planned hospital? To the Premier, why was he

trying to shut down the maternity ward at Peace Arch Hospital, which we

invested millions of dollars to improve and which wants to be used daily

by residents, but they can’t because they’re being diverted to Langley?

Why is that?

Hon. J. Horgan: Obviously, Surrey Memorial Hospital and Peace Arch Hospital have

maternity wards, and if there’s a need for more maternity capacity,

there will be space at the new hospital.

I refer the former Finance Minister to page 76 of the 2022 budget,

where he will see that the second Surrey hospital is going to be in the

range of $1.66 billion, page 76. Member, maybe you can get the kids from

the basement to pull that up.

K. Falcon: We’ve just seen a demonstration of exactly what’s wrong with this

government. When under pressure, they just make announcements. I think

we heard another one here. Now it seems to be that the Premier is

saying: “Well, maybe it will have a maternity ward.” That’s fascinating

to me — that decisions are made apparently in the midst of heated

questioning. I am fascinated by that.

The bottom line is simply this. It is simply this — that they talk

about wanting to do things. They make announcements, whether it’s

training spaces, whether it’s new hospitals — nothing to be shown for

it. You could drive back and forth through Surrey. The seven NDP MLAs

should be able to tell you this. You see nothing happening — nothing.

That’s the real record of this government.

I now want to talk about hospitals. I wish I had more time to

spend on that, frankly. This is the challenge, as I watch the

Chair….

Sorry, Chair. No, the Premier, I think, wants to say something. I

want to give him that respect.

[2:40 p.m.]

Hon. J. Horgan: Well, thank you to the Leader of the Opposition. I’m just

concerned that the opposition doesn’t have a copy of the 2022 budget.

I’d like to table page 76, which I’ve highlighted for ease of viewing.

New Surrey hospital and cancer centre, $1.66 billion.

K. Falcon: We’ve heard about the announcements and the promises, Premier. The

issue I look for is money in the actual capital budget.

Interjection.

K. Falcon: No, it’s not right there.

Interjections.

The Chair: Members. Members, one person has the floor at a

time.

Please continue.

K. Falcon: That’s probably why the applause was so tepid on that side of the

House.

I’d now like to talk about the crisis in our hospital settings —

total and utter chaos in every part of this province. Inside hospitals

like Royal Inland in Kamloops, Kelowna General, Nanaimo Regional, East

Kootenay Hospital in Cranbrook, we’ve got…. Just to actually make this

even more real, I could rattle off virtually every hospital in the

province. It’s all the same.

I got a text last night from a gentleman whose father had a stroke

in Salmon Arm. Salmon Arm hospital — not enough staff. They shipped him

up to Royal Inland Hospital. I’m happy to share this with the Premier,

if he’d like to see it. He described it as a horror show where they were

stuck in the hallways. He said he was talking to doctors who weren’t

even from B.C. They’re contract doctors that apparently government is

having to fly in now — at great considerable expense; you can be certain

of that. Nurses were stressed. Patients up and down the corridor. He

actually sent me photographs of the patients receiving care in the

corridors.

This is the reality of what’s happening in our hospitals to a

stroke patient, for goodness sakes. It’s terrifying for the individual,

and certainly doubly terrifying for the families.

Hallways to the emergency departments are full of beds, and the

backlog of patients waiting for beds can be upwards of 40 patients at

any given time. Emergency departments are routinely closing due to staff

shortages. They just shut right down — no emergency department. You show

up, and there will be no emergency department available, like in

Clearwater; or the hospital in Merritt, in the Nicola Valley; the Port

McNeill district hospital.

Even in the Lower Mainland, where you would think, okay, with all

of the big hospitals and all the nurses and doctors, surely to goodness,

you’re going to get quick service there, parents trying to get their

child emergency service at Children’s Hospital are experiencing waits of

up to nine hours.

To the Premier, what is the Premier doing to address this crisis

in our emergency departments today?

[2:45 p.m.]

The Chair: Thank you, Members. In conferring with the Clerk’s staff, I

just wanted to be clear that, of course, the tabling of documents is

appropriate when it comes to the general House, but when we’re in

committee, it’s not the practice of the House to have documents

tabled here for public consumption. If the Premier did want to

provide a document to the Leader of the Opposition or anyone for

information, the best way to do that in committee is through the

Legislature staff here, and they can provide that over.

I’ll send that back over here, and then we’ll continue with

the answer.

Hon. J. Horgan: Thank you, hon. Chair. Thank you for the reminder on the rules of

the committee. I appreciate that.

During COVID, we’ve seen people absent from workplaces in every

sector of the economy, but in health care, it’s particularly important.

All of us — every single member in this House, those in the gallery,

those watching at home — lift their hands in gratitude to the health

care providers who put themselves at risk throughout COVID to provide

care to vulnerable populations, whether they be in acute care, whether

they be in long-term care or other health care settings.

This year there is 25 percent more absenteeism than there was in

the first year as a result of COVID-19. I’ve touched upon this several

times, and the reason I’ve done so is because of the profound impact

it’s having on the delivery of services. I said in earlier responses

that 14,000 to 18,000 sick days have been accounted for over the past

number of weeks, but last week alone 15,000 people called in sick.

That’s about double what would be on a normal day in a normal

circumstance in parts of the province, wherever you may come

from.

Despite having significant absenteeism, there were more surgeries

done in the last three weeks than at any time in our history, so

services are being delivered. Challenging as it may be, we are still

finding positive outcomes from our health care system. That is a full

credit to those in our acute care system who stand at the ready to

assist people as they appear, regardless of where they come

from.

[2:50 p.m.]

The challenge for health authorities, particularly in smaller

communities, is…. If you have 30 percent of your ten-person complement

of staff at your emergency room call in sick, that puts a tremendous

strain on the remaining providers and, in some instances, makes it

impossible for them to deliver services. That’s why there have been

diversions.

It’s not the first time in our history that there have been

diversions. This has happened in the 2010s. It happened in the 2000s. It

happened in the 1990s. A province as diverse and dynamic as British

Columbia, with small populations in some parts of the province and large

populations in others, has to manage resources to meet the needs of

people, going forward.

Rather than list the corridor medicine that took place, the Tim

Hortons that was opened up to be a triage centre at Royal Columbian

Hospital during the watch of the members on the other side, I’ll leave

it to say that I hope that we can have a genuine discussion about the

challenges that our health care providers are facing with them at front

of mind as well as the patients that they serve. The back-and-forth here

during committee will do little to assist those people.

The facts of the matter are that more people are calling in sick

at the request of the public health officer than we’ve seen since the

pandemic began, and that’s putting a strain on the delivery of

services.

K. Falcon: Well, I would acknowledge to the Premier that he’s correct. There

are individualized examples of this happening in every government,

probably, going back decades — no question about that.

The issue is that this isn’t just an isolated incident, as

shocking as those may be when they happen. This is a regular occurrence.

This is happening daily. It’s not something that is so irregular that it

actually captures the attention and, rightly, receives the criticism and

attention it deserves when it happens. And it happened while we were in

government — I acknowledge that — but not to the scale and the extent

that it’s happening now.

I would just remind the Premier that COVID affected more than just

British Columbia. Other provinces were also affected, but none of them

have anywhere near the level of crisis that we’re experiencing in our

health care system. I would argue that’s because unlike us, who have had

flat or negative growth every year for five years in health care

workers, they’ve been seeing growth in health care workers. So they’ve

got more people to be able to manage the challenges they

face.

I’d like to just give an example in Williams Lake, at the Cariboo

Memorial Hospital: ten-hour waits in their emergency rooms. They’ve got

a 60 percent staffing level. They’re operating at 175 percent of

capacity, so they’re well over 100 percent of capacity. They have a

situation where, as we heard earlier today, a 14-year-old from Williams

Lake could not get an ambulance after going into cardiac arrest. Why?

Because the ambulances were so backed up at the hospital with patients

that were unable to go into the hospital because it’s already 175

percent over capacity.

Premier, what do you have to say to the residents of Williams Lake

on the situation at Cariboo Memorial Hospital?

[2:55 p.m.]

Hon. J. Horgan: First of all, I want to acknowledge and thank the Leader of the

Opposition for acknowledging that this is a phenomenon that has been

with British Columbia for some time. I have some data just to reinforce

the point that throughout all health authorities in 2012-13, 2013-14,

2014-15, acute care facilities were all over capacity — all of them

across the province, with the exception of the Provincial Health

Authority, which does not have acute care facilities that I’m aware of.

So that’s that.

I hope that we’re agreeing that the consequences of COVID and

absenteeism have put an additional strain on a system that has already

come through two years where health care providers were asked, in many

cases, to work double shifts on a consistent basis. They’re exhausted.

British Columbians are exhausted. We want to get through this. We want

to get back to something reassembling normal.

With respect to the Cariboo issues, we have — and it was to much

applause — announced, after a decade or so of discussion, that we were

going to build the hospital in Williams Lake, which will provide more

capacity and ensure that services can be provided to the people in that

region.

Lastly, of course, I want to talk about…. Just a few weeks ago,

the Canadian Medical Association talked about the critical family

physician shortage, not in British Columbia, but across Canada. This is

a national phenomenon. That is why I have been spending so much of my

energy not criticizing the federal government, not pointing fingers at

the federal government but urging the federal government to join with

the provinces, who deliver these important services to the citizens of

Canada, and bring in appropriate funding levels so that we can meet

these challenges. We can overbuild capacity so that we don’t have

circumstances like we’re seeing in some of our smaller communities. When

a handful of staff are not available, it sends tremors throughout the

community.

We need to address those issues. I acknowledge that. I acknowledge

the work of the opposition to bring those issues forward. But the

challenge is not unique to British Columbia. I believe it’s a direct

result of the ravages of COVID-19 on our institutions, on our delivery

of services and on, of course, the ability of all of us to collaborate

and work together.

I am grateful that we had a turning of the page, I believe, in the

debate we’re having today, when we’re all acknowledging that these

challenges didn’t arrive yesterday, and they won’t be fixed tomorrow

unless we roll up our sleeves and work together on meeting the

challenges that we see in every health authority. They were there in

2012. They’re there in 2022. Let’s ensure together that they’re not

there in 2025.

K. Falcon: I would love to do that, except that the challenges today are at

an epic scale, worse than they have every been. That is the concern. As

the Premier correctly pointed out, the system is teetering. Our concern

is that the system is about to implode.

This isn’t just my opinion. I don’t just think this stuff up on my

own. This is what we’re hearing from nurses and doctors who come to us

directly with their concerns. They’ve got gag orders in place, but they

still let us know, individually, that this is a real crisis that they’re

very, very concerned about.

While a new hospital in Williams Lake will always be a good thing,

and I will certainly applaud and support that, if it’s an empty hospital

that’s not delivering the services because it has no staff in order to

look after situations like that 14-year-old, it’s not going to do much

good for folks.

I’d like to talk for a second, Premier…. A quick question on the

Elkford emergency room. It has been closed since September. That’s

getting close to a year. I just want to know: is the government going to

permanently leave it closed, or is there any effort to actually open

that emergency room that’s been closed for almost one year?

Hon. J. Horgan: As officials get out the note on that issue, I would ask if the

committee could recess briefly for whatever it’s called. What kind of

break is it?

The Chair: We’ll call it a biology break. How’s that?

We’ll take a short recess. Thank you. This committee is now in

recess.

The committee recessed from 3 p.m. to 3:11 p.m.

[S. Chandra Herbert in the chair.]

Hon. J. Horgan: With respect to the Elkford Health Centre, it has been

challenging, as the member knows. I know that the member for Kootenay

East has raised that issue with the Minister of Health, as well, as

recently as today in the Legislature. It’s recruitment and retention. It

is a challenge. We’ve talked about shortages in every sector of the

economy.

In the Elk Valley, of course, there’s Sparwood, there’s Fernie,

and then there’s Elkford. So in order to stabilize, the health authority

isn’t focusing on Sparwood and Fernie. As we continue to try and

encourage RNs and others to get into the pool for Elkford, that remains

a challenge. We’re going to continue to do what we can for

recruitment.

There is no intention for permanent closure. The intention is to

continue to encourage health care providers to take advantage of what is

a very desirable lifestyle in the Elk Valley. It’s a beautiful part of

British Columbia that has access to services within that corridor from,

as I say, Fernie and then through to Sparwood. That’s the state of play

at the moment.

I can give some more details on the FTE counts and the various

providers that we’re seeking. It seems to be, particularly, a nursing

issue at this moment, but not exclusively.

K. Falcon: Premier, I think what I’ll share with you is just….

The Chair: I’ll just have to stop the member there.

K. Falcon: The Premier.

The Chair: Just to make it clear. Maybe this helps. This is how they

teach it at youth parliament. Just look at me. Talk to me. I’m the

one you’re talking to. That’ll be, maybe, an easier way to

understand it, because it is kind of odd to talk in the third

person. I understand that fully. But those are the rules that we

follow here. Thank you.

K. Falcon: No, I know. Standing Order 36, I think, also suggests that we keep

the flow going, as I’m sure the Chair is aware.

The Chair: I am. If the rules are followed, there will be no interruption

from me.

K. Falcon: Thank you for that input, Chair.

Premier, there have been a number of hospital emergency department

closures, and I’ve got…. This is only a snapshot. This is just since

January of 2021. The Premier would be interested to know that it runs

into pages, but I think it is symptomatic of the challenge we face. As

we canvassed earlier, every government will face challenges here and

there. But what we are seeing is such a series of challenges that it is

almost a daily occurrence in many of these hospitals.

In Interior Health, we’ve got Ashcroft with repeated emergency

room closures. Barriere, same thing. Blue River, closed right through

the Christmas season of 2021, from December 20 to 31. Clearwater,

virtually every month — closures during the day, overnight.

[3:15 p.m.]

Elkford. Well, we know about Elkford, and we’ve canvassed that.

Grand Forks, Kamloops, Keremeos — hours reduced. Lillooet, in-patient

services suspended from January 18 to March 14, 2022. That’s almost an

entire quarter. Merritt, emergency department closed multiple times,

just this year alone. April. May. January. Through Christmas. In

Northern Health, there are just so many, I couldn’t even start to list

them. Chetwynd. We talked about that a little bit.

The common theme here, regardless of which health authority…. Same

thing on the Island, all over the Island. We’ve just got this continual

challenge of…. As I say, it’s only a snapshot, but this is a

considerable challenge that we’re facing.

I think, Premier, what I’d like to do is turn over to my

colleagues from Kamloops to ask specific questions that sort of

highlight what is in the seven pages of closures, just since January of

2021, with respect to the Royal Inland Hospital.

T. Stone: I very much appreciate the opportunity to just insert myself very

briefly in this exchange here today.

I want to ask a question of the Premier with respect to Royal

Inland Hospital. I know that he knows it’s a dire situation. I think he

has said as such. I know that the Minister of Health has acknowledged

that it’s a dire situation. In fact, the Minister of Health has said

repeatedly in recent days and weeks that the city of Kamloops and the

hospital in our community, Royal Inland, has been one of the hardest

hit, if not the hardest hit, over the last two to three years. So I

think that we can all agree on that reality, that high-level

reality.

The people of Kamloops…. This is a city of 100,000-​plus. It

serves a much larger area. It’s the second-largest trauma hospital in

British Columbia and the largest in Interior Health. It’s one of the two

tertiary hospitals in the Interior Health Authority. The systemic

issues, the challenges that are facing health care workers — and through

the health care workers, the public that this hospital serves — are

massive. People are frustrated that there doesn’t appear to be an urgent

plan to address what’s actually happening in the hospitals.

I want to walk through, really quickly here, some of the

highlights — or lowlights, depending on one’s perspective. The Royal

Inland is characterized these days, and it has been for quite some time,

with massive staff shortages across most units and most wards on most

hours of most days of the week. It’s just routine now. It’s just common

now.

The recent long weekend, the May long weekend, over the Friday,

Saturday and Sunday, the emergency room at Royal Inland was operating at

between 40 percent and 50 percent staffing. The ICU, on those same dates

of the long weekend, was operating at between 58 percent and 66 percent

staffing. Contract nurses and contract doctors and other health care

professionals from other parts of British Columbia — and indeed, from

across the country, we understand — were brought in. Many are still

there, at great cost. We still have significant staffing shortages in

these various departments.

There are 20,000 unfilled shift hours in the ER and the ICU

departments combined over the next two months. Now, a normal or ideal

nurse-to-patient ratio would be 1 to 4 or maybe 1 to 5.

[3:20 p.m.]

These incredible nurses today — and they are doing exceptional

work under extraordinarily difficult circumstances — are managing to do

that with nurse-to-patient ratios of 1 to 8, 1 to 10 and, in some cases,

more than that. That’s not sustainable.

The emergency room is, obviously, overflowing every day of the

week. When the Clearwater hospital has its ER closed, and the Ashcroft

Hospital has its ER closed, albeit temporarily, the pressure gets

diverted to Kamloops.

We have huge issues with home care, reductions in service levels —

which has meant that patients have to go to the ER in many cases. The

urgent and primary care centre is not seeing nearly the number of

patients that it was intended to see. People go to the ER, because they

have no choice. In Kamloops, we have no walk-in clinics left —

zero.

All of this has created a situation in the ER which is absolutely

untenable. We’ve had the permanent closure of the coronary care unit.

That has reduced the number of critical care beds in our hospital by

four. We have witnessed, recently, temporary closures of the pediatrics

ward. We had a mother and a newborn child have to be diverted to

Kelowna.

Those health care professionals, again…. They’re making those

judgment calls in those moments — with the health of those patients in

mind; no question — but they’re being put into extraordinarily

difficult, challenging situations. They shouldn’t have to be making that

kind of a decision — certainly, not on as regular a basis as they’re

being asked to.

[J. Tegart in the chair.]

There has been a significant reduction, over a number of years, in

the number of surgeries that are performed at Royal Inland Hospital, and

in fact, a correlating increase in the number of surgeries that are

performed by Kamloops surgeons on Kamloops patients in Kelowna General

Hospital, because those surgeons can’t get OR hours for their Kamloops

patients at Royal Inland Hospital, increasingly. This is a tertiary

hospital in a fairly large urban city in the Interior of the province.

Increasingly, patients in Kamloops have to go to Salmon Arm for

diagnostics, because there’s not enough staff in the diagnostics

department.

Lastly, the wait time now in Kamloops for a long-term-care bed is

over a year, which means there are dozens of patients that are in acute

care beds in Royal Inland Hospital because there’s nowhere else for

those people to go. When you look at the massive overcapacity situation

at Royal Inland Hospital — the massive staff shortage across the board,

as I’ve described it — it’s an extraordinarily dire

situation.

For years now, the health care workers, the nurses, the doctors,

the technicians and all of the support staff — everyone that works in

and outside of that building that are critical to the successful

provision of the health care that people need — have been begging

government for a plan. First and foremost, as related to staffing — it’s

a short-term, mid-term and long-term retention and recruitment

strategy.

They need Interior Health senior management to come and spend more

time in Kamloops and have more people in Kamloops, listening, sitting

down with nurses, with doctors and with health care professionals to

help to map out the strategies that are going to work. They need to see

timelines on all of this.

Even after the member for Kamloops–North Thompson and I held a

press conference to highlight these issues, almost nine months ago in

Kamloops — and then we did another press conference last week to

highlight these same issues, only they are much worse nine months later

— there is still no sense within the community as to what the plan

is.

Nurses are telling us, in large numbers, that they’re going to

walk, like many of their colleagues have. Doctors are throwing their

arms up in the air. At the end of the day, patients are the ones that

are left without the care that they need.

[3:25 p.m.]

I appreciate the patience here for me to just sort of lay out for

the Premier, hopefully in a thoughtful way, just how dire the situation

is. We’re not talking about needing 1½ or 2½ FTEs in one department.

This is a really, really significant and dire situation.

I believe, my colleague from Kamloops–North Thompson believes, and

the people of Kamloops believe that it really is the Premier who now

needs to step in and direct the Health Minister to accelerate a plan

that will focus on those short-term, mid-term and long-term actions to

address the critical health care situation in Royal Inland

Hospital.

Will the Premier commit to ensuring that that happens and that

that happens as soon as possible?

Hon. J. Horgan: I want to thank both members from Kamloops for the way with which

they’ve brought these issues forward today in this debate. They both

know that they have access to the Minister of Health, whenever needed,

to raise these issues.

[3:30 p.m.]

I think that it was a very thoughtful presentation that

highlighted the challenges that Interior Health has faced, particularly

at Royal Inland, the major regional acute care facility for the

communities that the member articulated — numerous — whether it be

Ashcroft, Barriere, Blue River, Clearwater and on. These are real

challenges that are being faced — not just as a result of COVID and

absenteeism, which we’ve touched upon. I know the members understand

that, and that is part of the challenge.

I think of the good people of Kamloops and the health care

providers who have opened up their homes and their communities, season

upon season upon season, for what seems like forever, through fires,

through floods. It is the centre. People come. They get care. They get

welcomed. They get housed. They get fed. And then they hopefully move

back to their communities. I think of Merritt, which I’ve touched upon —

twice in six months, people moving down the street to Kamloops for care

and help and support. So I want to thank the people of Kamloops and the

health care providers and both of the MLAs for the pressures that

they’ve faced in their community as a result of all of those issues that

are beyond control.

What is in our control is putting in place a plan, and we’ve been

working on that. We’ve already heard…. I think the member articulated

the short-term plan quite effectively. Interior Health has been bringing

in doctors, bringing in nurses to try and fill these gaps from across

the province and, indeed, across the country. That’s the short-term

solution, as we go forward.

The immediate term, of course, is ensuring that we’re providing

more training spaces. Right at Thompson Rivers, we’re seeing more nurses

coming out, more seats there than ever before — ten additional seats

just this past September, 15 more coming next January. And 200 nurses

have been hired since 2021, and 41 of those are student

nurses.

All of these pieces of data are helpful to know that there is hope

going forward, but the recruitment and retention issues are the

long-term challenge. What the Ministry of Health is doing with Interior

Health is putting in place a team that’ll work directly — and I’m sure

the members are aware of this — with the community, with health care

providers to find a way to recruit and retain more providers that can

use the facilities at the acute care centre at Royal Inland to meet the

needs of not just Kamloops but the adjoining area.

These issues will take time. But ultimately, again, it’s a matter

of ensuring that we’re focused on the problems. That means talking to

nurses, talking to health care providers, hearing what they’re saying.

The minister and I met with the Doctors of B.C. on the primary care

fronts, which doesn’t translate into acute care directly, but it does

indirectly.

All of those components in the short term, medium term and long

term are the actions of the government to date. The member asked for my

personal intervention. He has that every day. I’ve made this clear to

him. I will do my level best to support the team on this side to make

sure that voices in communities that are not represented at my table are

getting into my ears.

Again, I want to thank the member for the helpful and constructive

comments that he made in laying out what is a dire situation. To the

Leader of the Opposition, I acknowledge that. We recognize it. That’s

cold comfort for those providers that are looking at two and three

double shifts in a row because of absenteeism — not the fault of their

colleagues but a direct result of the continued ravages of

COVID-19.

Having said all of that, the people of Kamloops have an

expectation that we can do better. I want to work with both members on

that side of the House to ensure that we do, do better.

P. Milobar: I thank the Premier for that. But I think, frankly, that’ll be a

bit of cold comfort at this stage. Part of the reality is that Kamloops

is a tertiary hospital. It’s supposed to be a tertiary hospital. We

don’t want to see any erosion of the Kelowna tertiary hospital, because

that just makes the problem worse around IHA as well.

The facts and the data that we provided at our press event a week

ago very clearly show there has been an erosion of funding, year over

year, from 2017, when this Minister of Health took over, till now,

compared to Kelowna. We simply want it to be operating like the tertiary

hospital it’s supposed to be operated as, as demonstrated by the Kelowna

model.

[3:35 p.m.]

I just want to touch on very quickly, with the Premier here —

recognizing time is short — that in the October of 2020 election, the

Premier made it very clear in Kamloops that we would have a cancer

centre built and operating within his mandate, his current mandate, by

October of 2024. Then he went on Radio NL and said it was at Treasury

Board. We then discovered that’s not actually accurate, because you’d

need to have a business case to go to Treasury Board, and there’s, in

fact, no business case. The Premier reluctantly acknowledged

that.

Now here we are, two years post-election almost, and we find out

it’s now backwards at the preliminary planning stage. And when pressed

for answers, we’ve had the Premier duck local media to the point where

the Premier’s press staff…. The Premier might not be aware of this, but

they would say to local media: “Well, the Premier was in town for a fire

press conference during the evacuations. You had your chance to ask

about the cancer centre at those.”

Those are the answers we’re getting from the Premier’s

communications when we’re trying to get answers about his commitment to

the people of Kamloops. People want to know what the exact timeline is

for a cancer centre, not an evasive “It’s in a ten-year plan,” not an

evasive “It might happen some time.” The minister, last week, said

“year” in an answer and had to correct it an hour later and say that he

meant to say “years.”

This has been a mess from the get-go for two years. The people of

Kamloops simply want to know: is the Premier going to make good on his

commitment? Part of the problem at Royal Inland is parking. We have a

solution instantly for the Premier. There is a space of land that IHA

already owns, slated for a parkade, separate from the hospital, which is

what you need for those types of cancer centres. Put it on top of the

parkade and get building. Solve the parking problem, actually follow

through on a commitment.

So what is the actual timeline? We know, based on the museum

project, that business cases go to Treasury Board and then there are

actual timelines. What is the timeline for the Premier’s promised,

committed cancer centre for Kamloops, where are the dollars in the

budget, and when can people see any meaningful type of work happening in

Kamloops?

[3:40 p.m.]

Hon. J. Horgan: With respect to the parking issue, I just consulted with the

Minister of Health. He’s happy to sit down with you today or at your

convenience to talk about that component. I know the member was trying

to marry the two items to accelerate activity, and I appreciate that.

I’ll leave it to the Minister of Health to talk about the parking piece.

That would be an opportunity to bring forward the suggestion that was

just proffered by the member opposite.

I am very pleased to say that Kamloops will be one of the centres

that will have a lung cancer screening facility in town. This is

transformative. It’s not happened in B.C. before — in fact, in Canada.

That’s a starting point. The concept plan is still underway. I regret

that it hasn’t moved faster. We’re not talking about, in this case, a

hospital or a museum. We’re talking about ensuring that services that

are available to the people of Kamloops are available in the town that

they live in. Building it out is not as massive as it sounds.

I’m confident that the concept plan is near completion. The

business plan follows quickly after that. If there is a way that the

member and the Minister of Health can find a solution to accelerate

that, I’m sure…. I would certainly welcome that. I’m confident he would

as well.

K. Falcon: Premier, I’d like to take a few minutes to talk about the heatwave

that we went through last year.

As a reminder to folks that might be watching, you’ll recall that

we had a so-called heat dome last year that resulted in a staggering

number of deaths in British Columbia. Over 600 people died as a result

of this heatwave.

Now, it’s important to understand…. When you see a staggering

number like that, you think: “Oh my goodness. How could it have gotten

to such a point?” Well, the reality was that the ambulance system

literally collapsed. It resulted in a shocking number of avoidable

deaths, mostly of frail elderly that were making thousands of phone

calls that were not being answered at a time when they needed

help.

I want to be clear. The first responders were heartbroken about

this. They were heartbroken that the system utterly collapsed when it

was most needed. They are not to blame at all.

I will also further say…. It’s one thing, in this House, when we

talk about incompetence on capital projects, whether it’s doubling the

budget at Site C or the museum project or what have you. As troubling as

that is as a taxpayer, when you’re dealing with the kind of incompetence

that can result in hundreds of people unnecessarily losing their lives,

that becomes a source of real concern.

I want to point out that next door in Washington state, there were

100 deaths. In Oregon state, there were 96. Now, even adjusting for

population, that would mean that in Washington state, there was one

death per 100,000 population. In Oregon, there were two per 100,000

population. Here in British Columbia, we had 12 per 100,000 population.

In other words, to put it in everyday language, we had 12 times the

number of deaths than they did next door in Washington state and six

times the number of deaths than they did in Oregon.

So what happened? Well, once again, we saw the Minister of Health

come out and make an announcement. The announcement was that they were

going to hire all these people and fix the paramedic and ambulance

system, and everything was going to be better.

[3:45 p.m.]

Here we are. It’s almost a year later. And what does the head of

the Ambulance Paramedics have to say? “Since last summer, it” — the

announcement — “has not translated, because we’re no better off today

than we were then.”

Now, as we say so often in this place, I think we’re starting to

understand…. There seems to be confusion on the other side of the House

that an announcement means action. It doesn’t. It’s just an

announcement. Leadership is about executing on announcements so that you

get the results and you get the improvements.

As we now come into another summer with nothing being different,

as the head of the paramedics says…. I’m very concerned, Premier, that

if we have another heatwave, we’re going to see another disproportionate

number of deaths in British Columbia well beyond what we saw in

neighbouring states.

Does the Premier share my concern, especially in light of the fact

that his comment at the time, unfortunately, was: “Fatalities are a part

of life”? Actually, they’re not. A lot of frail elderly lost their lives

unnecessarily as a result of a collapsed ambulance paramedics system,

with poor first responders doing everything they possibly could but the

system collapsing around them.

Does the Premier share my concern that this summer we’re heading

into exactly the same situation with nothing changed, as the head of the

paramedics said? And what’s he going to do if we hit another heatwave,

God forbid?

[3:50 p.m.]

Hon. J. Horgan: I thank the member for his question and reminder of how absolutely

devastated British Columbians were by record heat, temperatures. Again,

I apologize for referring to the Chair, but her constituency

particularly, as all members know, was hit extremely hard by

extraordinary weather.

The system was overwhelmed, without any doubt. The coroner is

reviewing all of the aspects of the heat dome, and we expect that report

to be tabled shortly. We have taken, though, significant steps since

July of 2021. We appointed Jim Chu, a respected former public servant

and business person in Vancouver, to chair the board of the B.C.

emergency health services, as well as a new chief ambulance officer,

appointed in January of this year.

Eighty-five new full-time paramedic positions were established in

November. An additional 40 positions were added in Budget 2022, and 42

net new dispatchers have been hired. So 22 new ambulances in nine

service areas: Coquitlam, Burnaby, Surrey, Richmond, Langley,

Abbotsford, Kamloops and two in Prince George. The remaining 13, of

course, will be in service, we’re expecting, before the end of 2022. We

converted 22 rural ambulance stations to 24-7 Alpha stations. These

communities now have 24-7 coverage where they did not before.

It’s not completely accurate to that say no actions have been

taken. In fact, quite a few actions have been taken. Despite that, the

heatwave of last year was profound. The minister who sits here normally,

the Solicitor General, is in estimates right now. He is working on how

we will better utilize the alert systems, the intervention broadcast

systems that we have. He is going to have more to say about that in the

days ahead as we prepare for the summer before us.

Again, as we start June with very, very low temperatures, a spring

that has been below normal, with a snowpack that is still very, very

high, we’re concerned in government. Emergency preparedness B.C. and the

forecast centre are concerned that if we do get a heatwave similar to

what we had in 2021, the rapid thaw of the snowpack will lead to freshet

floods that will remind us of the atmospheric river of the fall. So

we’re managing all of those issues with emergency

preparedness.

We’re awaiting the results of the findings of the coroner’s

report. We’re continuing to build out our paramedic service, which was,

in some instances, a part-time undertaking. Difficult to recruit and

retain paramedics when the on-call salary was two bucks an hour. I know

that in my constituency, the paramedics that were posted in Port Renfrew

— very little activity. Always wanted to be in Sooke, where there was

more activity, and then, of course, into the West Shore, where there is

even more activity.

The challenges of managing the system have been addressed, we

believe, by making new investments, bringing on more people, making them

full-time and making the profession one that we can recruit and retain

more individuals to, so that if we have events similar to the horrific

events of last summer, we’ll be in a better position to address

those.

K. Falcon: I’ve been around long enough to know…. What I look for is results.

What I care about is what results we are actually getting on the ground.

The Premier talks about how they’re managing the system. I would argue

that it’s actually mismanaging the system. I say that not based on my

own opinion but on the opinion of the people that are actually in the

system, that are on the front lines of the system.

The Premier knows that earlier this month, it was confirmed by the

head of the Paramedic Association that 42 percent of ambulances were not

staffed across the Lower Mainland, with similar numbers right across the

province. We had a situation on May 28. I want the viewers to really

think about this for a moment. On May 28, there was literally one

ambulance in Prince George in an area that had to cover….

[3:55 p.m.]

There were none in Vanderhoof. There were none in McBride. There

were no ambulances in Bear Lake, Quesnel or Hixon.

That is an area that is larger than Vancouver Island. I want the

folks on Vancouver Island to imagine for a second, if they would, if

there was only one ambulance for the entire Island, because that was the

situation in northern British Columbia on May 28. This is the situation

that we face right now.

It’s why I am so concerned about the fact that as we head into

another summer, we are literally at a point where we are just going to

have to get on our knees and pray that there is not another heatwave,

because if there is, based on what we’re hearing from the people that

work on the front lines, it hasn’t changed at all. That means we’ve got

more frail elderly that are going to be put at risk

unnecessarily.

I would remind the Premier that 600 people lost their lives here.

That was 12 times more than lost their lives in Washington state, right

next door. They also had a heatwave, by the way. It’s the same heat

dome. Same with Oregon. But we had six times more deaths than they did

in Oregon.

I’m very concerned that we are walking right into another

situation where we’re unprepared. The system has not responded. We’ve

got almost half of ambulances that are not even staffed. We’ve got one

for the entire north of the province, in an area larger than Vancouver

Island. That’s what we are facing today as we go into the

summer.

Again, does the Premier at least share my concern that we’re

unprepared at this point, given what I’ve just shared with the Premier,

based on front-line knowledge from workers?

[4:00 p.m.]

Hon. J. Horgan: Again, I want to thank the Leader of the Opposition for bringing

these issues forward, as he has. It is a concern of mine, as it is with

him. Whenever you have extraordinary circumstances that we’ve not

experienced before, you have to question: “Are we prepared for it to

happen again?”

In my engagements with the federal government, with the Minister

of Public Safety, as well as federal representatives responding to the

atmospheric river and the consequences for our highway infrastructure

into the Interior, as well as, obviously, the devastation in the Fraser

Valley….

What I’ve come away from all of that with — and the member will

appreciate this — is that despite the best efforts, as he rightly says,

of front-line workers, sometimes we are overwhelmed by extraordinary

circumstances. We have had our full measure of those circumstances. I

did outline some of the changes that we have made, as a result. Again,

if there are any more recommendations coming from the coroner, we’ll

respond to those rapidly.

We have increased the ambulance budget by 31 percent since we came

to government. That’s a massive increase. When we came to government, 33

percent of ambulance paramedics were casuals. We’re up to, now, removing

that and having a full-time capacity of, I think, 56 percent. That’s

significant. Despite that, there are going to be those days when people

feel like they’re the only game in town.

The member made reference to May 28 and only one ride being

available in Prince George. That question was raised in question period,

I believe, yesterday. Staff have gone back. They contacted emergency

services and are advised that there were, indeed, six ambulances

available on May 28. So the information that we’re getting from those on

the ground is that it was six, not one.

I know that’s not the intent of the question. It wasn’t about

duelling numbers; it was about what happens in circumstances where we

don’t have enough resources on the ground. This is a theme that we’ve

been touching on throughout these estimates, and quite frankly, it’s a

challenge that we have faced collectively for the past couple of years

with extraordinary events.

I don’t want to diminish the Leader of the Opposition’s sentiment

that government should be ready for all circumstances. We should. That’s

the expectation that the public has of us. I understand that. But in the

real world — which we’ve referred to a couple of times from both sides

today in the debate, or over the last couple days — sometimes the

reality is that not all of us are firing on the same

cylinder.

During the heat dome, cooling centres were closed at night. Of

course, as British Columbians — a relatively northern climate, different

from those to the south, not a lot of air conditioning, not a lot of

expectation that as the evening arrives it’s going to get hotter —

that’s not something we’re accustomed to.

Municipal officials doing the best that they could. I’m not being

critical here. I’m just saying that without any practical experience

with 35- to 40-degree temperatures, the thought of having cooling

centres open into the evening was not something that they contemplated.

Well, we’re going to be doing that now. Learning from previous disasters

is what emergency preparedness is all about. The minister who is

currently in debate in the chamber down the hall is talking about these

very issues right now.

We are going to be using the emergency alert system with respect

to extreme heat. This is something that we’ve worked with municipalities

on, to ensure that we get this right. The challenge with the emergency

alert system is that if you use it too often and the circumstances don’t

warrant it, the public tunes it out. So there is a fine balance when

municipal officials give the thumbs-up that we need to inform the entire

community of a challenge. That’s when EMBC springs into action. That’s

when these emergency alerts are most effective.

A good example of that would be Mayor Braun from Abbotsford. When

he was asked by EMBC, “Should we use the emergency alert, the amber

alert?” he said for some areas, yes, and for other areas, no. That is,

again, collaboration between orders of government to try and ensure that

we’re doing everything that we can to protect citizens.

[4:05 p.m.]

We have learned a great deal from the heat dome. We have learned a

great deal from the atmospheric river. What we have learned is that we

need to make more investments.

On the water side, we need to ensure that diking systems all the

way from the mouth of the river to the headwaters are in the best shape

they possibly can be. We now have a commitment from the federal

government to work on that.

When it comes to extreme heat, again, I just have to say that on

June 2, with 15-degree weather, we lose sight and start to forget about

what we experienced last summer. But it will be vividly etched in the

minds of those who lost loved ones. It’ll be vividly etched in the minds

of those front-line workers who couldn’t do enough to save

people.

With that, I would suggest to the member that we will be as

prepared as we can be. The cooling centre issue is one that we are

working on with municipalities. I think that’s a good step forward in

collaboration with different orders of government.

K. Falcon: Well, I’m going to move on from that subject, but I do have to

note that an alert system…. If we’re not going to use it when 600 people

have lost their lives as a result of a heat dome, and, frankly, we’re

not going to use it with some of the worst flooding in the history of

the province….

I had a farmer telling me, from Abbotsford, that they could hear

the sirens next door over in Washington state warning their people about

the flooding that was taking place, and him saying, “There’s got to be

something happening here, because I can hear the sirens next door.”

That’s small comfort, cold comfort to people, frankly.

I’d like to talk about autism now. This is an issue that is very

close to my heart, and I’m sure the Premier’s too, because I know that

he must know parents that have children with autism. Autism is a medical

condition that is on a spectrum, so it’s very individual in terms of how

autism is with each particular child. One of the lessons we learned, and

one of the reasons we brought in individualized funding, is because we

recognized that every child is unique.

It’s very particular to this particular health condition that

every child is unique. Therefore, the individualized funding was so

critical to parents who know their kids best, who know their children

best, that they can get the services that meet the needs of their

specific child.

I can tell you, Premier. The parents are so upset and so furious

about a very top-down, callous announcement that was made to end direct

autism funding by 2025. The minister who is responsible for this file

only took the time to meet with parents after the announcement making

these sweeping changes was actually made. It’s shocking that such a

dramatic change takes away from the well-established supports and the

relationships that these autistic children have made with the very

specialized instructors that they work with to help them deal with their

autism.

Those relationships take years to build. Switching someone out can

be a very traumatic event for children with autism. So that’s why these

parents are horrified at this change and want the Premier to know, from

me — because I’ve heard from so many of them, hundreds and hundreds —

that they’re scared for their future.

Premier, you need to know this. I want to be clear — Chair,

through to the Premier — that I don’t hold the Premier personally

responsible for this, because I know what it’s like…. I don’t know what

it’s like to be a Premier — I’ve been a deputy Premier — but I know

you’ve got a lot of things on your desk, you’ve got a lot of things to

deal with, and you can’t possibly be aware of everything that’s going

on. So I want to say that.

I want the Premier to know that the minister who is responsible

for this is seriously mishandling this file. I’m bringing this to his

attention on the basis that I know that the Premier is a caring person

and that he, once being made aware of this, will, I think, understand

the urgency with which I plead with the Premier. Despite the pressure

that parents and service providers have been making to try and bring

awareness to the government, they’re being ignored.

[4:10 p.m.]

I do want to say to the Premier, and I really mean this, that it’s

never the wrong time to do the right thing. This is an issue where I

think the Premier could emerge and really be a hero here, because they

want to move to a new hub system, and while the hub system will work for

some neurodiverse children, it is not going to work for parents with

autistic children. Each of these children really does have very unique

needs.

I’d like to ask the Premier: will he join me…. I want to make this

a bipartisan thing. Will the Premier join me and meet with the parents

of autistic children, who can explain firsthand to both of us just how

devastating this decision will be, before the government goes down this

path and makes what will be, I promise, a huge mistake for the parents

of autistic children? Will the Premier do that — join me, meet with the

parents of