Manitoba Hansard — 17 October 1989 (Sitting 51, 34th Legislature, 2nd Session)

34-2-51

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tuesday, October 17, 1989. The House met at 1:30 p.m. PRAYERS ROUTINE PROC EE DINGS INT RODUC TION OF GUESTS Mr. Speaker: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct Hono urable Mem bers' attention to the gal lery where we have from the Pembina Crest School, twenty-seven Grade 9 students under the direction of Leslie Mesman. This school is lo cated in the constituenc y of the Hon ourable Mem ber for Fort Ga rry (Mr . Laurie Evans). On behalf of all Honourable Mem bers, I wel come you here this afternoon. ORAL QUEST ION PERIOD Manitoba Child Care Association Meeting Request Mrs.

Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker, 145 child care centres cl osed in the Province of Manitoba, not just in the City of Winnip eg but in com munities like Portage la Prairie, Teulon and Bran don. These child care centr es were sup ported by the parents of the childr en who attend those centres and indeed on the steps of the Legislatur e by many of the childr en themselves. They kno w and appreciate the work that is done by those emplo yees of the child care centre. Mr. Speaker, the Premier (Mr . Filmon) can no longer hide behind refusing to act because he feels und er duress.

Will he now agree to meet with the Manitoba Child Care Assoc iation and begin the negotiation process for better pay for child care workers? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I am not hiding behind any reasons or any desire not to solve probl ems with the day care commun ity. I believe there ought to be a commitment to resolve the issues that are outstan ding for the day care commun ity, but this is not an issue that is going to be solv ed by a band-aid solution or a quick fix, as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Carstairs) is wont to sug gest all the time.

This is a long- term funding issue that has not occurred overnight, that has not occu rred as a result of the past 17 months of this admin istration. We have indicated our commitment over the past 17 months. In two budgets we have increased funding by 45 percent to day care.

We have increased it by 13 million additional dolla rs, and we continue to be committed to resolve the outstan ding issues, including the issue of more pay for day care workers. * (13 35) We have set up an advisory committee along with a Cabi net comm ittee to sit down in a working group 1911 and come up with a plan to resolve, not only the long term issues of ensuring that we have adequate funding for the day care system, but to ensure as wel l that we address on a more immediate basis, for the next budget and beyond, the issues of funding for the worke rs in day care to ensure that they get better pay as they deserve.

Mrs. Car stairs: Band-aid solutions will no t solve anyth ing, but discussions just might discover the answer and the solution . Why does this Premier (Mr . Filmon) consis ten tly refuse to meet with the Man itoba association that works and represents the child care workers of this province? Mr. Filmon: Precisely as the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Ca rstairs) has ind icated in her pre amble, discussions mus t take place. Discussions began a week ago. We had the advisory committee that inclu des mem bersh ip from MCCA.

Mo re than half of the mem bers on that child care advisory committee are from the MCCA, including their president, Carol Draper. During that discussion the people, all of them there, were happy with the direction that was taken, were given a sense that we were on track to not only look at the shor t-term issues but also to come up with a better funding mechanism for the long term. They ag reed that that kind of discussion and nego tiation was the way to go, Mr. Speaker.

As a consequence, we are going to carry on with that because we are comm itted with a work ing group to make prog ress, to set targets, and to ensur e that people kno w that we are comm itted to reso lving the outstanding issues. Day Care Workers Salary Negotiations Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Oppositio n): Ob viously when the Premier (Mr. Filmon) went out onto the steps of the Legislature this morning, he had blinders on.

He did not see the hundr eds and hundr eds of child care workers and childr en and parents who were gathered there who were absolutely dissatisfied with his lack of action in negotiating with the very people who represent those child care workers. Mr. Speaker , Mani toba has been a leader in the day care field. Why is this Government not willing to take us onc e again to the leading edge, to the negotiations of salaries which are appropria te to the work done by child care workers? Hon.

Gary Filmon (Premier): I did not have the blin ders on that did not allo w me to see or hear wha t the Leader of the Opposition (Mr s. Cars tairs) said when she ap peared before that group. What she said was entirely different to what she said when she spoke in this House on Wednesd ay, May 20, 1987. This is exactly what the Leader of the Opp osition said, and I quote, first of al l- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh!

Tuesday, October 17, 1989 Mr. Speaker: Ord er, please. ***** Mr. Speaker: The Hono urable Leader of the Opposition, on a point of order . Mni. Carstairs: Mr. Speaker, if the Premier (Mr. Filmon) is -going to quote from Hansa rd, will he in fact quote the whole two pages of Hansard whi ch makes reference specifi caliy to priv ate profit day care? Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honourable Memb er do es ·not have: a point of orde r. Some Hon()Urable Members: Oh, oh! Mi'. Speaker: Order. Order. ***** Mr., Filmon: Mr. Speaker, f know tha t the Leader of the Opposit ion (Mrs. Carsfair

s) is afraid to hear her words of two years ago, because she chang es her positio n every time . she speaks to any gr oup in this provi nce. This is what she said. on the 20th of May, 1987.- (i nterjec tio n)- Mr. Speaker: Order. 'Mr. Filmon: I will read the entir e paragraph in totalit y. Fi rst of all, this is her words, Mr. Speaker .

I am sorry that her Party is so emb arrassed by them, but I ask for the opportu nit y ·to read her words then: "First of all, let me make it perfectly clear that the federal Li beral Party is in favou r of un iver sally accessible day care and my position has always been that it is the child I would like to see the subsid y.go to, not the day care centre. I am not conc erned about the centr e per se, nor would I provide them wit h main tenance grants, nor would I provide them with salary enhan cement gran ts, but 1. would provid e subsidies for chi ldren because that ls after all who is in care ... ·Now, Mr.

Speak er, today she is saying that she wants to give mor e in salary enh ancement grants. Today she is saying she wants to gi ve more in maint enance grants, but when she had the oppo rtun it y· -(i nterjectio n)- to� Mrs . Car11tairs: You know, it is no t difficult to teach people how to read. Wha t it Js di ffi cult to teach them how to do is to read in its cont ext, and the context of the dis cussion was private day care and profit_ day care. * (1 340) Day. Care Task Force R�commendations Mrs . Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr.

Speaker, I have a question to the Minis ter of Fam ily Ser vices (M rs. Oleso n). Thi s Gov ernment spent $400,000 on a task force report, monie s which could well have been. spent on salary enhancement, but the Government chose not to do it. Why is this Govern ment, through their Minis ter, reject ing the recom me_nd ations made by that $400,0 00 task force report? Hon . Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): Mr. Speaker, I have not rejected the recom menda tions of the task force. Many of them have been carried out; other s take longer to impl ement and wi ll be imple mented.

The task force memb ers themselves said there was no int ention that. this should be interpr eted that it should happen ins tantly, that it 'takes time to work thesei thin gs through and get the fu nding in place. Day Car e Long Range Planning Mrs . Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition ): Mr. Speaker, but -that is exactly what we want the Min ister to do, which -is to lay out a plan, a plan based on the task for i:;e reco mmenda ti on .

Will she lay that plan out tod ay to show that there is a plan in thi s Go vernm ent to brin g about appropria te sala ry enha ncement and approp riate salary levels for day care workers? Hon . Charlotte Oleson (Minister of Family Services): I do not know how many time s, Mr. Speaker, we have to tell th,e Leader of the Oppos ition that these things are being worked through . Time and time again the day care com muni ty has told me, told the Premier , told othe rs, that the fun ding mechanism which we have is very awkward and dif ficult.

In order to chang e that it takes time and ittakes planni ng, and that is what is taking place. Day Care Long Range Planning Mrs. Sharon Carstairs (Leader of the Opposition): Mr. Speaker , but this Government has. been in power for some 17 ·mo nths. Where is their inabil ity (sic) to plan and provid e the kind of mana gement that they promis ed in the 19 88 election campaign? Did they have no idea of how they were going to better manage the day care centres of this provi nce than the previous adm in istra tion? Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Hon . Gary Filmon· (Premier): That is exactly whom she asked .

She did riot say anything about the Min ister. She said "thi s Governmen t. " I speak fo r the G_overnrnent. Mr. Speaker, wh�n we took office -(i nterjectjor i� I kno w the Lib eral Party do es not want to hear any answers, Mr. Speaker, but I will try and giv e them some very dir ect answers, Fi rstly, we mad e 'a commit ment to day care.

We. sai d that it was a hi gh prio rity and we have extended funding well beyo nd the levels of increase that have been given to any other area of Government, 45 percent inc rease over two budg ets in less than 17 mo nths, 13 mi llion add itio n.al do llars because we are comm itted to quality, flexible, acices�ible day care because we know that 1912

Tuesday, October 17, 1989 Manitoba's da y care system mus t be maint ained , en hanced and improved, Mr. Speaker . We were left with many, many problems by the former admin istration but one of the things we did was make a commitment to additional funding, and then the second one was that we were going to ensure tha t we worked with the day care com munity to develop a fu nding model over the longer term to solv e the issues that remain outstan ding, including the issue of sala ries for day care workers.

That is our comm itment and we will carry thr ough that commitment with or without the help of the Liberal Party of Manitoba, Mr. Speak er. Manitoba Child Care Association Meeting Request Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): Mr.

Speaker, the Premier of this province stood up in this Ho use on a numb er of occas ions in the la st couple of weeks and also said the same thing publi cly to the Man itoba Child Care Assoc iation tha t, but for the fact that the demons tration was hanging over his head , he would meet with the Man itoba Child Care Association and sit down and discuss plans for the funding crisis in day care in this province. Mr. Speaker , my question to the Premier (Mr .

Filmon) is: now that day is over that over 2,0 00 Ma nitobans, parents, childr en and day care profess ionals have demons trated that their concerns are widespr ead and real and genuine, will the Premier pick up the phone today, set up a meeting with the Manitoba Child Care Associa tion, open up his bud get, negot iate a fair increase, negotia te a plan for the funding crisis in day care? * (13 45) Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker , I wou ld like to kn ow where the Member for St.

Johns was when she was in Go vernm ent, because all of these issues occurred as a resu lt of the ac tions of her Ne w Democrat ic administration. When she was a special assistant in the Office of the Prem ier, and then for two years while she was in Cabinet, all of these issues were brewing. The unde rfunding of day care, the low wages and salaries of workers in day care did not occur in the last 17 months. They occu rred because of 16 and a half months of the conscious policy decisions of the New Democratic Government. Now in a hypocritical fash ion, Mr. Speaker , that Mem ber for St.

Johns says that everything should be the responsi bility of this admin istration. We take our respo nsibil ities seriously and we are going to ensur e that we work on a lo ng-term basis to ensur e adequate funding for the day care com mun ity of this province. Ms. Wasylycia-Leis: Mr. Speaker, I just wanted to kno w if the Premier (Mr . Filmon) will live up to his prom ise to meet with the Manitoba Child Care Association. Thousands who appeared today at the Legislature do not believe what the Premier is saying. Thousands of shivering faces today in front of the building saw red.

The Premier think s he is Ronald Reagan and that Manitoba child care workers are the tr aff ic air control lers. My question to the Premier is: will the Premier stop his bul lying tactics, give those tactics a rest and negotiate in good faith with the parents and child -care providers in Manitoba? Mr. Filmon: Mr. Speaker , that is precisely wha t we are doing. We set up the Child Care Advisory Committee that inclu des rep rese nta tion - mor e than half are members of the MC CA-a nd we are meeting with them.

We are comm itted to meet reg ul arly until we set up a plan and targets to meet all of the outstanding problems that face the day care commun ity in Man itoba. Day Care Fee

Schedule Ms. Judy Wasylycia-Leis (St. Johns): It is clear that the Premier, this Government, will no t meet with the child care association despite its promises. Now its strategy appears to be one of dividing and conq uering, trying to divide parents and child care profes sionals by saying the only thing child care profess ionals will get more is if the parents pay more. Mr. Speaker: Order, ple ase. And the question is? Ms .

Wasylycia-Leis: My question to the Premier is: given that the average fam ily in Manitoba that makes $40,000 a year and has one preschooler in day care and one infant in day care pays a quarter of their gross income on day care al ready, how much more does this Premier (Mr . Filmon) and this Government think the average family in Manitoba should pay for child care services? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): We have indicated that we are prepar ed to put su bstan tial increased fundin g into day care, a 45 percent increase in two bud gets over a space of 17 months, 13 million additional dolla rs.

All we are tal king about now is the fact that when that mone y goes in at the top it does not come out at the bottom in a way that benefits the day care professionals. We need to have an entirely different approach, a revised app roach to a funding system and mechan ism. Wha t was put in pla ce by the Ne w Dem ocrat ic administration was not working, and I might say that this Mem ber (Ms.

Wasylycia-Leis) cont inues to berate this issue despite the fact that their Minister, the New Democratic Minister, Mur iel Smith, said time and time again that they needed time to address the issue of salaries, that day care workers should be patient. During that period of time there was no withdrawal of services, there was no strike, there was no outcry, because she believed that was the way to go. Today she has chan ged her appr oach. She is exhor ting the members of the child care com munity to strike, to withdraw their services, and she is not doing them a service.

We will work with them conscientiously to solve the problems in day care. 1913

ruesday, ·October 17, 1989 Ms . Wasylycia.Leis: This- week the Ontario Coal ition for Better Child Care wrote this letter to the Premier which I am willing to table, Mr. Speak er, to express their gra ve concerns about the child care crisis in Ma nitoba. I will be happy to table this letter. * (1 350) Considering that this group is well aware of the child care situation, Ontario states that Manitoba until now has offered a model of qual ity child care- An Honourable Member: Question. Mr. Speaker: Order , please ; ord er, please. The Ho nour able Mem ber for St. Johns, kindl y put her question now ple ase. Ms .

Wailylycia·Leis: Did the Premier's Min ister of Family Services (Mr s. Ol eson) state yesterday that she wants to go back on years of prog ress and try and introduce an Ontario funding model for child care in Ma nitoba, which will double the fees now paid- Mr. Speaker: Order. The Honour able First Min ister. Mr. Filmon: We have not prop osed anything that sugge sts wha t fees ought to be.

Tha t is the role of the discussion that we will have with members of the child care com mun ity, through the advisory comm ittee, through the Cabi net comm ittee that will sit down with them and look at the funding models and mechan ism. The fact of the matter is that there are some people who have their childr en in child care who cannot afford to pay more for it. The current fu nding mechanism does not all ow for that to happen. The cu rrent leg islation does not allow for that to happen .

The fact of the matter is that we have to work this out in a way that is con sultat ive, that addresses the views, the needs and the concerns of those people who del iver child care in this province. That is what we are attempting to do. Centre For Disease Cont rol Site Selection Mr. James Carr (Fort Rou ge): Mr . Sp eaker , my question is for the Premier. The issue of site select ion for the Labor atory Centre for Disease Control is still very much on the minds of many Winnip eggers.

Just last week a group of residents and busine ss people approacM d the executive policy committee of Winnipeg City Cou ncil to have the Whole issue revisited so that they could remove the Central Works Yards. There is a gr owing awareness that City Coun cil's decision not to allo w the lab to be pla ced downtown is an historic mistake, and some counci llor s who voted against the downtown site now say that they wou ld change their mind if the province helped fina nce the mo vement of the works yards ..

Is the Premier prepared to initiate a meeting with the mayor and the federal Minister of Health, after next week 's elections, to revisit this embarra ssing and short sighted decision? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, I appreciate the question of the Mem ber for Fort Rouge, but he made one very important reference there, and that is if the province will pay, or help pay for the removal of the works yard . Mr. Speaker , as somebody who worked in those work yards 30 years ago, 30 years ago I worked in th ose work yards on an asphalt patching crew, I was chairman of Works and Opera tions during the '70s.

I kno w those work yards and it is acknowledged by people who kno w any thing about mun icipa l planning tha t is an inappr opriate loca tion for that kind of yard to be with an asphalt plant, with emissions, with dust and odour problems and all of those things. That is a problem of the City of Winnip eg to move those yard s. That is not a prob lem that was set up by any provi ncial Government, formerly or now.

So if we are talking about that I think we have to ac kno wl edge, as people who care about the environment, that the city is going to be obliged to move those yards at some point in the not too distant future in any case, at their expense. Why not do it today when they have an appropria te use for those yards that fits in with the medical centres, with the infras tructur e of the hospitals and everything else? You can not have a works yard in the middle of a residential area and a health care area - Mr. Speaker: Order. Ord er, pl ease. The Ho nourabl e Mem ber for Fort Rouge. Mr. Carr: Mr.

Speaker , I think we are making prog ress. We now have the Premier on the record saying that the works yards are not properly loc ated. We also have the Premier on the record suppor ting that site for the lab. Will he put the two together and use the resou rces of his Go vern me nt so tha t we ha ve an historic opportun ity to take advantage of the comp arative advantages of our health care system, and put that lab where it belongs and where the blu e ribbon panel said it should go? Mr. Filmon: Num ber one, this Government in writing from the Min ister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) have indicated in the past , for many, many months, probably close to a year, that was the site that we preferred , Mr. Speaker. There was no question about that: Secondly , anybody who has any background in environ mental matters kno ws that is an inappr opriate loca tion for the site. None of this is news, Mr. Speaker , un less it is news to the Mem ber for Fort Rouge (Mr . Carr). He puts in the unfortuna tewo rds that must require the application of provincial resou rces in order for the city to make the right decision. They do not need to be bribed to make the right decision .

They need to make the right decision for. the right reasons, because the works yard is an inappr opria te lo ca tion and because th ey ha ve an opportun ity to properly locate a health lab of $96 mill ion investments from th.e Federal Government with the infrast ructure right there- Mr. Carr: We now have a price tag on this Govern ment's commitment to the downtown lab. It is zero, Mr. Speaker, because the Premier knows full well that he can have ·that decision reversed if he is prep ared to use the infl uenc e of his office and the resources of his Goverhmerit. 1914

Tuesday, October 17, 1989 Are th ere any circu mstanc es under which the Governm ent of Ma nitoba will help move those yards to facilitate the pla cement of that lab so important for our city and the health care system of this country where it belongs, downtown, next to the Health Sciences Centre, next to the University of Ma nitoba Medical Schoo l? * ( 13 55) Mr. Filmon: Mr.

Speaker , now we have the policy of the Liberal Oppos ition in Ma nitoba, and that is that decisions do not have to be made for all the right reaso ns, but that people have to be bribed to do the right things, that all you have to do in Government - Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Ord er. Order. The Ho nourable First Minister. Mr. Filmon: The Liberal Party of Ma nitoba believes that all you have to do in Government is spend mone y, tens and hundr eds of millions of dolla rs, regard less of the reason, regardle ss of the rationale, regard less of the logic behind the decision.

Wha t it takes is to pour out millions and millions of dol lars to conv ince people to do what is inherently right to be done. I wou ld hope that the new City Counc il that is elected at the latter part of this month wi ll have a lot more sens e than the Mem ber for Fort Rouge and will kno w that they have to do the right thing on this issue. Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker , I hope that the new City Counc il has more vision for the City of Winnip eg than the Premier of Ma nitoba has. Mr. Speaker: This is not a time for debate. City of Winnipeg Capital Grants Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): This is a new question, Mr.

Speak er. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order . Mr. Carr: A new question to the Premier, Mr. Speaker. The Premier kno ws better than most, because he has served on City Council, that the Government of Ma nitoba provides millions of dolla rs a year in capital gr ants to the City of Winnipeg , and the City of Winnipeg decides how those capital grants could be used . There is a wonderful oppor tunity here for the Premier of this province to show some leadership. He is on the record suppor ting the pla cement of that lab in the downtown site.

Is he prepar ed to talk to the mayor after the election on October 25 to find a way of correcting mistakes which have been made, not only by City Counc il but by this Governm ent, by remaining so quiet on the issue so an historic mistake can be 1915 avoided, or is he just going to sit there and accuse other people of the mistakes that he is making? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): The Mem ber for Fort Rouge is getting sillier and sillier. The mayor is not the problem. The mayor is the one who cons istentl y has lead the charge to have the lab at that downtown site.

He is the one who has said over and over again -h e is not the problem. I met with him and had breakfast with him and tal ked about this particular issue a year ago and indicated our sup port for that location. He was in full agreement and he lead the charge on council, and it is not there. So the fact of the matter is that we have an election corning up at which we will have new members of council who I believe will have perhaps a desire to have another look at it.

They are not going to be encou raged by the kind of silly sugge stions of the Mem ber for Fort Rouge that says all you have to do is hold out for money, mone y, mone y. Tha t is the an swer to every problem. When do people make the right decision for the right reasons? Centre for Disease Control Site Selection Agreement Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Mr. Speak er, with all due respect , encouragement from the Premier of this province is much more important than encou ragement from me, an d that is what these people are looking for. Is the Premier -(interjectio n)- Mr. Speaker: Order.

The Honour able Mem ber for Fort Rouge. Mr. Carr: Mr. Speaker, is the Premier prepared to have a conv ersation with Perrin Beatty, the federal Minister of Health, to see if he can bring the federal Minister of Health ons ide with him and the Minister of Health (Mr . Orchard) whom we kno w believes that the site ought to be downtown , in order to come up with a three-level agreement from the municipality, from the province and from the federal Government to make a deal so that the site goes where it belongs? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker , the fact of the matter is that Mr.

Beatty, like his predecessor, Mr. Epp, suppor ted th e down town site as being the preferred location. They had a study gr oup come together to look at all the alterna tives and chose that as the No. 1 site. We have said so, the Minister of Heal th-I have indicated that is our preferred site and the mayor has had the same indications. This is not Mont y Hall's Let's Make a Deal.

The fact of the matter is that the City Counc il has to be conv inced and he can help by tal king to some of his frien ds at City Hall to tell them that it is the right site for all the right reasons, and it is time that they made the right decision. * (1 400) Mr. Carr: I will make a deal with the Premier, I will talk to my friends on counc il if he will talk to his.

Tuesday, October 17, 1989 Site Selecti on Reversal Mr. James Carr (Fort Rouge): Is the Premier prepar ed to make any steps whatso ever to help reverse the decision for which Winnip eggers and Manitobans will be paying, not for a year or not for two years, but for gener ations to come? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker , first and foremost, I bel ieve we now have to wait for the elec tion of a new City Council because we have to have a fresh appr oach to the problem, which is not going to be there if we do not get fresh faces on City Cou ncil who are prepar ed to take a new look at it.

Su bject to that, I am certainl y prepared to indicate publi cly again and again and again that we bel ieve that is the best site and the new City Council should take a new look at it. Port of Churchill Shipping Season Extension Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): Mr. Speak er, my question is to the Min ister of Highways and Transporta tion (Mr . Al bert Driedger). On several different occasions this year the Min ister has indicated that there is a possibility of more gr ain being shipp ed thr ough the Port of Chur chill this year than the 300,000 ton nes that was originally comm itted to.

Can the Minister now indicate the status of any possible extension of the Chur chill shipping season to accom modate for an expanded numb er of shipments through the port this year? Hon. Albert Driedger (Mi nister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker , let me first of all say that I am pl eased we have had a more successful year this year with shipping through the Port of Chur ch ill than we did last year. I cannot confirm that there is an expanded program at this ti me. We are still hopefu l that there will be a further announc ement on it but we do not have anyth ing that we can confi rm.

Polish Aid Program Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): The la st sched uled ship has now left Chur chill. They have now started shutting down the port facility for the year, closing it for the year. They will be sen ding the workers home over the next couple of days. Every day that passes it becomes increasingly difficult to reactivate the port this year.

Can I ask the Min ister to indicate if his Go vernment has had any conta ct with the federal Gov ernment to promo te the Port of Chur chill as a prior ity shipping port for any goods, especially grain or food, for any of those goods that are going to be shipped to Pol and under the recently anno unced aid prog ram? Hon. Alb ert Driedger (Mi nister of Hig hways and Transpor tation): Mr. Spe aker, I would lik e to indicate that my staff are constantly in touch with their federal count erparts.

We are always look ing forward to any en hancement of shipping thr ough the Port of Chur chill and will certainly be look ing at this as wel l. Mr.

Cowan: Given that the Depar tment of External Affairs has al ready begun discus sions with the Polish Govern ment to determine exactly what type of aid program will flow under this annou ncement, can the Min ister now commit to having his staff, on a priority basis, conta ct the federal Go vern ment, conta ct the Depart ment of External Affairs to urge them to use the Port of Chur chill immediately before it is too late this year as a priority shipping por t for any goods tha t flo w under that program ? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Speaker , yes, I will. Goods and Services Tax Free Trade Agre ement Violation Mr.

Richard Kozak (Transcona): The federal goods and services tax may well viola te the Canada -U.S. Free Trade Ag reement. Elimi nating all federal taxes on exports and shifting the entire burden to the same goods consumed in Canada is the cla ssic example of an unfair trade subsi dy. Will the Premier (Mr . Filmon) warn the Prime Min ister that he is inviting the Americans to punish Canadian exporters with cou nterv ailing duties? Hon. Gar) Filmon (Premier): Surely the Mem ber for Transcona (Mr.

Kozak) would not want to initiate a major confrontat ion between ourselves and Ottawa over a highly specula tive question such as "the GST may well violate." That is the whole prem ise, an enti rely specula tive question. He does not have the gr ounds to make that accusa tion. Let us have the facts and the figures on the issue . Let us ha ve legal opinio n and inde ed confirmed allega tions rather than this kind of speculative question as the basis upon which we should conta ct Ottawa on an issue of such importance. Mr. Kozak: Mr.

Speaker , we all in this House kno w that it is highly speculativ e to expect this Premier to take any action. Given the demands of the Free Trade Agre ement, will the Premier ask if the Prime Min ister has gone to Washington, cap in hand, to ask American permission to introduc e a goods and services tax? Mr. Filmon: One has to wonder who writes the material for this Mem ber.

I certainly hope it is not those people who say they are gr ossly unde rpaid working for the Liberal Party Caucus in this Legisla ture, that director of research who was quoted as saying that she needed another $10,000 because she is gr ossly und erpaid. The fact of the matter is that this is an issue to do with the federal administration. It is an issue that, if he believes it is a good question, should be written out and sent to Ll oyd Axworthy to ask in the federal Parliament. This is not an issue.

This is not an important issue that should be dealt with here in the Manitoba Legislature. 1916 Economic Theory Mr. Richard Kozak (Transcona): Our Premier (Mr . Filmon) is the only Mani toban who can make light of serious questions on the go ods and services tax.

Tuesda� October 17, 1989 Will the Premier demand that the Prime Min ister stop playing with conflic ting economic theories from the 17 th and 19 th Centu ries before he does serious harm to our econ omy and our sover eignty? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker , I will take that advice unde r advisement. Hazardous Goods Transporta tion Regulations Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): I have a question for the Minister of Highways and Transpor tation (Mr . Al bert Driedger).

Recent changes to Transp orta tion of Dangerous Goods and Weights and Dimensions Regula tions for semitrailer trucks have made it possible for certain kinds of trucks to tow pup traile rs behind them and to be used on Man itoba highways. Yesterd ay, a potentially disastrous major accident occurred on the Perimeter Hig hway involving such a configu ration of a pup trailer beh ind a semi.

Ha s the Minister determined whether the truck in question met the requirements of the Canadian Safety Code that has been ap proved for comme rcial trucks and the con f igur at ion under the weights and dimensions legislation for Canada? Hon. Albert Driedger (Min ister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speaker , that was one of my first concerns when I was informed of the accident. A report is being done and I am awaiting that report. As soon as that comes forward , I will be able to answer that question. Mr. Plohman: Mr.

Speaker , has the Min ister asked specifically whether the configu ration and pr oper equipment was being used in this particular case on this truck? Also has he determined, and is he conduc ting inspections to determine whether all trucks in Ma nitoba are abiding by the safety code and the configura tion, the conv entions that have been adopted ? Are many trucks using belo w stand ard equipment at the present time? Mr. Albert Driedger: Mr. Speaker, I do not kno w whether this truck was within the legal requirements under the National Safety Code that we have.

I would just like to indicate that we have inspectors who are doing spot checks with various units across the province on an ongoing basis to see that people comply with the regula tions and the safety code that is required. * (14 10) Designated Routes Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr. Speak er, it is very important that we have a repor t as to the degree of compl iance from this Min ister.

It is also important, because of the potentially disastrous situation that could have happ ened , if this had happened on another area of the designated routes, for the Min ister to review with the City of Winnip eg the designa ted routes for dangerous goods in this province. I ask the Minister whether he has determined whe ther the designa ted route that this truck was using was in fact such a designa ted route and was meeting the requirements for these routes in this province? Hon. Albert Driedger (Minister of Highways and Transportation): Mr. Speak er, this accident hap pened on the Perimeter Highway.

That is one of the designated routes. However, once the total report comes forw ard , I am prepar ed to review that because the safety aspect of hauling the kind of weights and dimensions that we have, the kind of hookups that we have, is an ongoing conc ern within my depar tment. We are looking at it on a continual basis and will conti nue, in view of the accident that happened , to review the situation with the City of Winnip eg as wel l. Goods and Services Tax Impact on Manitoba Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): Last month in this House, in response to a question, the Min ister of Financ e (Mr.

Man ness) estimated the impact on Ma nitoba un der the GST at some $200 million to $250 million. A week before last, in a private meeting with the Ho use of Commons Fina nce Committee, he estimated it to be arou nd $10 5 million. Today, Mr. Speaker , we hear news from his meeting down east that the impact will be largest on small provinces and much greater than his original estimate. Can the Premier tell us today what the numb er is they are work ing with now? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Yes, I will take that question as not ice on behalf of the Min ister of Financ e (Mr . Man ness).

House of Commons Finance Committee Submission Tabling Request Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): I am surp rised the Premier does not kno w that, but perhaps he would agree today to table that report. Will the Premier commit to tabling that report onc e the Finance Min ister returns? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): I will have to obviously consult with the Min ister of Financ e (Mr. Manne ss), so I will take that question as notice on behalf of the Min ister of Financ e. Goods and Services Tax Consumption Tax Mr. Reg Alcock (Osborne): That is interesting, Mr . Speaker.

He an swers for everybody else, but he will not answer for the Financ e Minister. Perhaps we will try this one. The Finance Min ister indicated in his submis sion that he supp orts a broadly-ba sed consumption tax. His concern about the curr ent proposal is that it is not br oadly based enoug h. How broadly based does the Premier want it? Hon. Gary Filmon (Premier): Mr. Speaker, the Member for Osborne liberally quotes the Min ister of Fina nce 1917

Tuesday, October 17, 1989 (Mr . Man ness). because he has .been very inaccu rate in the past in quoting the Financ e Min ister for New Brunswick, and because he has had difficulty in kn owing about tax chan ges in Newfound land from the Premier of Newfou ndland. I will look into that matter and make sur e that the informa tion he has put on the table is accurate and ensur e that question is responded to in future. Northern Development Agreement Negotiations Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Mem ber for Rupertsland has time for one very shor t question. Mr. Elijah Harper (Rupertsland): Mr.

Speak er, my question is to the Min ister of Northern Affairs (Mr . Downey). The Northerners are concerned about the futur e of the No rthern Develop ment Agr eement. The ND A funds many needed programs in terms of human and economic development. The NOA was extended by the previous Govern ment but has since expired. Will the Min ister advis e the Leg islatur e of the status of the negotiations, and will the Government assu re the Nor therners that if any rep lacement of the NOA is negotiated, there would be no loss of any programs? Hon.

James Downey (Minister of Northern Affairs, and Native Affairs): Let me say how ple ased I am to see the Memb er back in the Leg islatur e following the break that we all had.- (interject ion)- I do not kno w, Mr . Sp eaker , why th ey are so excited . Is it no t appropria te to welcome a Mem ber back to the Legislature after we have had a whole summer's break? With an attitude like that, is it any· wonder that they have trou ble with their daily activities. Mr.

Speaker , let me first of all say that it is a concern as to th e status of the No rthern Devel opment Agre ement, probably the bigge st conce rn, that the new ne gotia tions and the new ag reemen t is far mor e success ful than the one of which he and his col leagues were a Mem ber of, where we spent some $300 million to $400 mill ion and still have an 80 percent to 90 percent un emp loyment rate in the commun ities tha t he repres ents and his colle agues repres ent.

We are working agg ressively with the fe deral Governme nt on a Memorandum of Un derstan ding which will lead to a m eaningful lo ng :-term agreement to suppor t the people of northern Manitoba in training and creation of emplo yment and a meani ngful lifestyle. Mr.· Speaker: The. time for Oral Quest ions has i:ixpired. SPEAK ER'S RULING Mr. Speaker: I have a ruling for the Ho use. On October 2, I took under advisement a point of order raised by both the Honourable Gover nment House Leader (Mr. Mc.Crae) and the Honourable Opposition Ho use Leader (Mr .

Alcock), respect ing words spoken in the House. · On examination! found that there were two separate and disti.nct points of order. I will ther efore deal with them in. the order in which they were raised. The Hon ourable Govern ment Hous e Leader (Mr . Mccrae) requested that the words of the Leader of the Official Op posit ion (Mr s. Carstairs), in a ques tion addressed to the Honour able First Minister (Mr. Filmon), be reviewed to determine whether she was imputing motives.

The Honourable Government House Leader did not raise his point of order until after the Honour able First Min ister had rep lied to the question con taining the alle ged unp arliamen tary langua ge.

Beauchesne's Citation 319 states in part tha t "The Speaker's attention must be directed to a breach of order at the proper moment, na mely the moment it occurred ." Similarly, Beauchesne's 485(2) states in part, " ... the pr oper time to raise such a point of order," respect ing al leged unp arl iamentar y lang uage, "is when the words are used and not afterwards." Speaker Phil lips quoted these Citations on June 25, 1987, when ruling agains t a point of order which had been raised after the appropria te time had passed.

Based on the authorit ies quoted, I must rule agains t the point of order raised by the Hono urable Govern ment House Leader. Turning now to the se cond point of order , the Hono ura ble Opposition House Lea der asked tha t Ha nsard be reviewed with particular attention being paid to the words spoken by the Hono urable the First Minister. The Hono urable Mem ber was recogn ized to speak to the point of order raised by the Honour able Govern ment House Leader (Mr . Mccrae) and on rising ind icated tha t he would be doing so.

In fact he addressed a different point of order respect ing words spoken by a different Mem ber. The Ho use was al ready deal ing with a point of order which had not been disposed of. *

(1420) As I believe the Hono urable Mem ber kno ws, points of order in this House are dealt with one at a time, and a second point of order is not entertained by the Chair until th e firs t one has been disposed of. Beauchesne' s Citation 318(1) states in part: "A point of order cannot be raised on a point of order." For the reasons indicated, I must rule against the Hon ourable Opposition House Leader's point of order. NON- POLIT ICA L STATEMENTS Hon. Bonnie Mitchelson (Minist er of Culture, Herit!lge arid Recreation): Would I have leave to make a no n political . statement? Mr.

Speaker: Does the Honourable Minister have leave to make a non-political stat ement? (Ag reed ) The Honourable Minis ter o.f Cu ltur e, Herit age and Recreat ion. Mrs. Mitchelson: Mr. Speaker , I was honour ed today to be part of a sod-turning ceremony on the site of the new Actors' .Sh owcase School at Market and Main. The school will be link ed with Pan tages Playhouse Theatre, which has been a Winn ipeg landma rk for 75 years. ·· 1918 .

Tuesday, October 17, 1989 The new home for Actors' Showcase, Manitoba's premiere theatre group for young people, is part of an elegant and functional addition to Pan tages Theatre. Today the federal, provincial and city Govern ments also ensu red that this reminder of our theatrical heritage con tinues to pla y a major role in our commun ity with the unv eiling of a plaque designating Pan tages as a building of national historic sign ificance. This theatre is one of the last vestiges of a great era in early North American theatre.

It is one of a very few remaining from that golden age of vaudeville and the only one left in Canada. In the heyday of vaude vill e, Mr. Speaker , the gr eatest of the great perfo rmed on Winnip eg's stages. Today the Panta ges vaudeville circu it, like its contempor aries, has receded into the folds of history and memory. What is left with us today is its magn ificent arch itectural legacy that has survived the fate of vaudeville performers. The new addition with Actors' Showcase will ensur e Pan tages remains our link to the past and becomes our bridge to the future.

It will live on with our futur e actors -the childr en of today- and remain a vital part of Man itoba's and Winnipe g's theatre scene. As Min ister of Culture, Heritage and Recrea tion, I extend my best wishes to Actors' Sh owcase and Pantages Pla yhous e Theatre as they look to the futur e together . Thank you. Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Member for Selkirk have leave to make a non-pol itical statement? (Ag reed) The Ho nourable Min ister for Selkirk. Mrs. Gwen Charles (Selkirk): I wish to join with the Min ister in congra tulating all levels in Go vernment.

It is always nice to see three levels of Government agree upon a decision to build a facility in the proper pl ace, such as Actors' Showcase is locating next to Pantages, and we hope that type of agreement can be taken over into other areas. Actors' Showcase indeed is going to hous e the youth and the futu re of our province. Pantages represents the past, what a wond erfu l blend for the prese nt. I congra tula te each and every one who will be members of the association, the volu nteers, the workers, the performers and all the audien ces who will enjoy wha t has come to be this day.

Congr atula tions and best wishes to all. Mr. Speaker: Does the Hono urable Mem ber for Logan have leave to make a non-poli tical statement? (Ag reed) The Honourable Mem ber for Log an. Ms. Maureen Hemphill (Logan): Mr. Speaker, we would also like to join and add our congr atula tions to all of the people involved in yet an other very important building block in making Manitoba one of the leaders in the count ry, if not in Nor th America, in terms of our cultu ral activities, particularly in the area of theatre and produc tion.

It is great to see things con tinued on from the past but also moving forward to the future so our young people are given oppor tun ities to develop their skills and their abil ities and to do it in such a wond erfu l setting. How many times have we looked past and wished we had not destroyed one of our beautiful old historic buildings in Winnip eg? Many of them are go ne. It is wonderful to see we have recogn ized soon enough that we have to protect those that are left . It is going to add to the image and visual delig hts of our city and also add to the building of our cultur al and arts commun ity. Mr.

Speaker: Does the Honour able Min ister of Educa tion ha ve le ave to make a non-polit ical sta tement? (Ag reed ) The Ho nourable Minis ter of Educa tion. Hon. Leonard Derkach (Minister of Education and Training): Mr. Speaker , I wou ld like to bring to the attention of the Members of the House today that today marks the beginning of People Transp ortation Safety Week in Man itoba. Mr. Speaker , I am pleased to note that during 1988 there were no fatalities or serious injuries repo rted involvi ng school bus es in Man itoba.

This is commendabl e considering that clo se to 1,850 school buses carried an average of 68,000 students over nearly 35 million kilom etres last year. The theme of People Transpor tation Week is "Protect our childr en, partners in school bus safety. " Activities this week will focus on a co-opera tive app roach to school bus safety, which includ es parents, school bus drivers, mechanics, teachers, admin istrators, motor ists and st udents thems elves.

My department will be providing assistance through professional development programs and educa tional mater ials to schools througho ut the province to prom ote a partner ship appr oach . In conclusion, Mr. Speaker , I wou ld like to take this opportun ity to ackno wledge the fine work of Manitoba's school bus drivers. I would especially commend the 1, 700 or 91 percent of school bus drivers who were accident free in 1988 . Mr. Speaker: Does the Honourable Mem ber for Dauphin have leave to make a non-political statement? (Ag reed) The Hono urable Mem ber for Dauphin. Mr. John Plohman (Dauphin): Mr.

Speaker, I wou ld like to join in suppor ting the words of the Minister. However, I wou ld like to point out that he is tal king about programs and education which normally would come under ministerial statements. As the Minister of Educa tion, I think he is somewhat abusing the rules in asking for a non-pol itical statement. Having made that statement, and I think it is worth noting, I do feel that it is a very important issue, obviously promo ting safety of childr en in the school bus system in this province is very impor tant.

We have worked to encou rage school bus safety over the years with additional signa ge and so on. I make that comment realizing that perhaps that is somewhat 1919

Tuesday, October 17, 1989 pol iti cal, but tha t is the na ture of thi s par ticular annou ncem ent . We will continue to work with the Governm ent in en hancing school bus safety over the next numb er of months to ensure tha t this record is conti nued and imp roved upon over the years. Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker: Do es the Honou ra ble Min ister of Consumer and Corpor ate Affa ir s have leave to make a no n-polit ical statem ent? (Agreed) The Ho nour able Min ister. Hon . Edward Connery (Minister of Co-operative, Consumer and Corporate Affa irs): Mr.

Speaker, I wou ld like to take this opp ortu n ity to in form all Honourable Mem bers that thi s is Consumer Week in Ma ni toba . Bei ng a consumer is a year-round role in which all Man itobans partici pate, a role that often requir es us to cont inually update our purchasing skills and seek new or better in formation about the goods and services we buy. In Manito ba, Consumer Week is proclai med by the Premier as a pr ovi ncial ob se rvance of the role consumer s play in the vital ity of the Manitoba eco nomy and our system of com merce.

Although the ob servance is held once a year, this by no means should limit the teachin g and learning of cons umer skills to just one week . Bei ng an educated consumer is im portant enoug h that it should be addressed on a daily basis. Mr. Speaker, I would like to in vite all Ho nour able Mem bers to join with me in recogn izing Consumer Week . · I would also like to take this opp ortun ity to ·inform all Ho nourable Mem bers that this week is National Co opera tive Week, and that Thursday, October 19, is International Credit Uni on Day. POINT OF ORDER Mr.

Speaker: Do es the Honou rable Me mber for Thom pson ha ve leave to make a non-political statement? On a point of order, the Mem ber for Thompson . Mr. Steve Ashton (Second Opposition House Leader): On a point of order , I really do not want to see us get in to the situat ion where we have to end up havi ng people den ied leave to giv e a no n-political statement, but I . would·say it has been the past practice in this Hous e to have no n-politic al statements on areas outsid e of mini sterial responsib il i ty, in particut ar, programs.

I do beli eve the last two statem ents, while they. were proba bly well-in te ntioned, were more .s uite d for min iste rial statements. The problem we run in to is that then the other critic s wish to speak and address the programs and then that becqmes politic al. I would, as a point of order, ask whether we perhaps should not cons ider what the real purpo se of non-pol itic al stateme nts is. I really believe that the last two statements would have .. been bet ter presented to·t he Hous e as min ist erial statements. Mr. Speaker: The Honou rable Government Hou se Leader, on the same point of order.

Order, order. The Honourable Government Hous e Leader. Hon . James Mccrae (Government House Leader): I would join with the Ho nour able Memb er for Thom pson (Mr . Ashton) in expre ssi ng the hop e that we would not ha ve to deny Ho nourable Mem be rs, such as the Honourabl e Mem ber for Dauphin (Mr. Plohman) as a result of his comm ents today. * (1 430) I would hate to have to join in the expression that we would have to deny Mem bers the oppor tunit y to rais e non-polit ical statements. Mr. Speaker: The Ho nour able Mem ber for Churchi ll, on the same point of order. Mr. Jay Cowan (Churchill): Mr .

Speaker, on a point of order, I object to the somewhat threateni ng, although mil dly stated, threatening tone of the Government House Leader with respect to his last comments . He is some what cutely tryi ng to suggest that he is just agre eing with our Oppos ition Hous e Leader. I do not want there to be any do ubt in anyone's mind as to what the situation is at present.

If Min isters stand and giv e min iste rial statements un der the time provid ed for Non-Pol itic al Statement s, what has always been and should always continue to be Min iste rial State ments in this House, und er that different activit y in the Hous e, then it will be necessary for Mem bers of the Opposition critic s, who have always reserved the right to crit icize the ac tions of the Governm ent, to stand and do so in response to a non political statement by way of a non-political statement of their own .

For example, it would have been very easy for any oppo sit ion Me mber to stand and critici ze the lack of activity on the part of the Min ister of Consumer and Corpor ate Affairs (Mr. Conner

y) in protecting consumers in thi s province.- (i nterject ion) - On the point of order, I am somewhat distracted. It would be very easy and tempting for someone to do that, because· in fact it is criticism that is justified and critici sm that is necessary and criti cism that has been deserved by the Min ister and his lack of activity in that area.

So for him to try to escape the legit ima te exercise, the const ructiv e critic ism by the Oppo sition, by taking what should be a Min iste rial Stateme nt and turn ing it into a Non-Polit ical Statement is going to in fact lead us to the type of sit uat ion tha t the Mem ber for Thomp son (Mr . Ashton) referenced. I would like you to, if possi ble, take under advisement the acti ons which have been taken today by the Min ister of Consumer and Corpo rate Affair s (Mr. Conn ery) and the Min ister of Educat ion (Mr.

Derkach) to determine if that int act has not been a viola tion of a long standing pr actice and a Rule of this House. Mr. Speaker: Let me. thank all Honou rable Mem bers. Order, please, I would like to thank _all Hono urable 1920

Tuesday, October 17, 1989 Mem bers for their comments. We will take this matter under advisement and report back to the House. ***** Mr. Jim Maloway (Elmwood): I ask permission to revert back to non-pol itical statements. Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , pleas e; order, ple ase. There is no lea ve req uir ed. Does the Ho nourable Mem ber for Elmwood have leave to make a non-pol itical statement? (Ag reed ) The Ho nourable Mem ber for El mwood . Mr. Maloway: Mr. Speaker , I just assumed that I would have an opportun ity to respond to the Min ister of Consumer and Corpo rate Affairs (Mr.

Con nery). I am plea sed to say a few words at this time conce rning the Consume rs Week. Last year, when the Con servatives do wng raded the Depart ment of Consumer and Corpor ate Affairs to be part of the Attorne y General 's office, some people- Some Honourable Members: Oh, oh! Mr. Speaker: Order , pl ease ; ord er, ple ase. The Honourable Government House Leader, on a point of order . Mr. Mccrae: Mr. Speak er, without reservat ion, we on this side of the House routinely grant lea ve to Honour able Mem bers who ask for leave to make non polit ical statements. The Ho nour able Mem ber for Elmwood (Mr .

Mal oway) displa ys the wrong spirit I sug gest with the comments that he jus t made. I sug gest he think about his comments. Perhaps ask for leave tomorrow to make a non-pol itical statement and we could consider the matter furt her, but in view of his comments, any leave that he would ask for today wou ld not be gr anted by Mem bers on this side. Mr. Speaker: I would like to thank the Honou rable Government Ho use Leader. I wou ld like to remind there is no point of order.

The Honour able Mem ber for Elmw ood , I wou ld like to rem ind the Honour able Mem ber he has been gr anted leave to make a non polit ical sta tement. The Ho nour able Mem ber for Elmwood . Mr. Ashton: A new point of order. Mr. Speaker: On a new point of order? Mr. As hton: I earlier rais ed concern about the difficulties we run into when Ministers make statements und er the title of a Non-Pol itical Statement. I think the statements by the Mem ber for El mwood (Mr .

M al oway) and talk of the new point of order reflect the difficult y that opposition Mem bers are pla ced in when Min isters raise matters und er Non-Poli tical Statements, therefore putting us in a position of not being able to respond 1921 because of the categ ories. I wou ld raise that as a point of order as well. I think it is legitimate for the Mem bers to ask questions about the Mem ber for El mwood 's statements but he should- Mr. Speaker: Order, plea se; order, please. I have alr eady advised the House that I will take that matter und er advisement. The Honour able Mem ber for ln kster (Mr .

Lamou reux), you are up on a what ? Ther e is no point of order. Order. On a new point of order? The Honourable Member for lnks ter, on a new point of order. Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (lnkster): I understand that you have agreed to take it under advisement. Leave has been given for the Honour able Mem ber for Elmwood (Mr . Mal oway). I wou ld assu me that we can continue on with the non-pol itical statement as it is set out in our Rules and that we will expect some type of a ruling from Mr. Speaker on it. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order. I have alr eady recog nized the Honourable Mem ber for Elmwood (Mr. Malo way).

Mr. Maloway: Thank you , Mr. Speaker. It is certainly clear , to me anyway, that the opposition of the Attorne y General to str engthen the consumer pro tect ion indicated a basic hostility -(interjection)- on him and his Govern ment. Mr. Speaker: Order, pl ease. Order. The Ho nourable Gover nment Hous e Leader. Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker , I would ask that the Honourable Mem ber for El mwood (Mr . Malo way) be called to order by the Chair for disregard ing the Rules of this House regard ing non-pol itical statements. Mr. Speaker: The Honourable Mem ber has been Order. Order.

I have warned the Honourable Mem ber for Elmwood I have taken this matter under advisement. Order. Order. I have recognized the Honourable Member for El mwood .- (interjection)- On a new point of order? Mr. Ashton: On a new point of order, Mr. Speaker. I must say I am finding it increasingly difficult as a Mem ber of this House when I am recogn ized to be heard ab ove the row from certain Mem bers of the Con servative bench. I think they should show a little bit of decor um, allo w me to continue- Mr. Speaker: Order, please. Order.

I am having great difficulty in hearing the remarks of the Hono urable Mem ber for Thom pson (Mr . Ashton). The Ho nourable Mem ber for Thompson. Mr. Ashton: We are running into a great deal of difficulty now because the Member was gr anted leave to speak . Now the Government House Leader (Mr. Mccrae) seems to feel that he can rise during the middle of the statement and withdraw the leave. I believe that when leave has been granted , that Mem ber is allo wed to speak . It is not up to the Government House Leader as to whether that is withdrawn . I would sug gest that

Tuesday, October 17, 1989 we take this matter un der advisement but in the interim -(interject ion)- recogn ize- Mr. Speaker: Ord er, ple ase ; order , pl ease. The Honourable Mem ber does not have a point of order. On the point of order rais ed by the Hono urable Government House Leader (Mr. Mccrae), I have already warned the Ho nourable Mem ber for El mwood (Mr . Mal oway) I have taken the matter und er advisement. The Honourable Mem ber for El mwood, on his non political statement. Mr. Maloway: Mr.

Speaker, it goes without saying that we are very ple ased that the previous Min ister was dump ed and that we now have a curr ent Minis ter. We are hoping -(interjection)- Mr. Speaker: Order, please; order, please. May I remind the Honour able Member-the Honourable Government Ho use Leader (Mr . Mccrae), on a point of order. Mr. Mccrae: In my shor t time here, Mr. Speaker , it has been rare that I have seen such bla tant ab uses of the privileges and Ru les of this Ho use as that displa yed this afternoon by the Honourable Mem ber for El mwood (Mr . Ma loway). I ask you, Mr.

Speaker , to recog nize someone else now. Mr. Speaker: Order, please. I have reminded the Honourable Memb er for El mwood (Mr . Malo way) on three separate occasions. The Hono urable Mem ber for Thom pson (Mr . Ashton), on a non-polit ical statement? Does the Hono urable Member have leave? Does the Hono urable Mem ber for Thompson ha ve le ave to make a non-politic al statement? Ord er. Does he have leave to make a non pol itical statement? (Ag reed) The Hon ourable Mem ber for Thompson. Mr. Ashton: Mr. Speaker , I thank those Mem bers who did give me leave .

I wou ld like to just say that even thou gh · I can not say anything polit ical in regard to the co-ops until we hear your ruling, I will abide by your having taken it under advisement that we in our caucus are very pl eased to see co-op devel opment week . We will raise our political conc erns about co-ops at the appropria te time and we would like to indicate our strong sup port for the co-operativ e movement and for the cred it vnion movement in Man itoba. I hope to be able at another opportun ity be abl e to address some of the things we wou ld like to see done in those

part icular areas to further enh ance co.ops in Mani toba. Mr. Speaker: Order. The Hm:1ourable Mem l)er for Thomps on, on a point of order. Mr. Ashton: I do not think it is appropr iate for the Minis ter of Consu mer and Corpo rate Affairs (Mr . Con nery) to refer to any Mem ber as he just did, as - '' this jerk," and I really find that the level of decorum is disintegra ting very rapidly. I wou ld ask you to ask the Min ister of Consu mer and Corpo rate Affairs not onl y to withdraw that comment, .to apologi ze to the Hous e for that ridiculous. statement that he just made. Mr.

Speaker: The Ho nourable G0vernment Hous e Leader on the same point of order. Mr. Mccrae: My only comment as par t of this point of order is that I recall sitting over there where the Honour able Mem ber for Springfield (Mr . Roch) now sits and being called that by the former Min ister of Finance, by the name of Kostyra, so you might want to think about whether that kind of langua ge is correct or not corr ect, but in any event we will abide by·y our ruling, Mr. Speaker . Mr. Speaker: Order please.

The Honour able Mem ber does not have a point of order, but I would like to remind Honour able Mem bers that in order to preserve decoru m, I would ask all Hon ourable Mem bers to pick and choose your words very carefu lly. *

(1440) Mr. Speaker: Does the honourable mem ber for Radisson have leave to make a non-polit ical statement? (Agre ed) Mr. Allan Patterson (Aadisson): Mr. Speaker , in view of what has been going on for the past 20 minutes of prod uctive time, I think I shall make my comments very brief. I even wonder if I should say anything.

Just let me say on behalf of the Opposition then, the Liberal Pa rty, tha t we certai nly commend the concept of Consu mer Week, and we also commend the very hard work that is put in all year and over a period of years by organ izations such as the Consumers Asso ciation of Canada and its Man itoba branch and so on. We wish them well, Mr. Speaker . Thank you. ORDERS OF THE DAY Hon. James Mccrae (Government House Leader): Mr. Speaker , I move, seconded by the Honour able Min ister of Indus try, Tr�de and Tourism (Mr. Ernst), that Mr.

Speaker do now leave the Chair, which he might really feel like doing at this point, and the House resolv e itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply being granted to Her Ma jesty , in the Cham ber , Rur al Devel opment, in the Comm ittee Room, Health. MOTION presented. MATTE R OF GRI EVANCE Mr. Allan Patterson (Aadisson): Mr. Speaker , I rise on a matter of gr ievance. Mr. Speaker: The Hon ourable Member for Rad isson, on a grievance. Mr.

Patterson: We have a great deal of concern and much of it has been expressed .· over the past many months on the situation of the Workers Com pensation Board, the current state that it is in. Two key things, Mr. Speak er, there was a long dela y in bringing in new legisla tion. It. is coming now, we must admit, but we are wond ering why it is coming in at this particu lar late

Tuesday, October 17, 1989 da te, and the la ck of leader ship by the current admin istration, by the Govern ment in clean ing up the mess. Now the Workers Comp ensation Board , Mr. Speak er, ha s many deep-rooted problems th at mu st be add ressed in order to solv e shor t-term compl ications such as delays in adjudication, undue delay in the length of appeals, escal ating costs, and poor publ ic rela tions. I full y recog nize that these problems should have been add ressed years ago.

We have in the past, adm ittedly in the early part of this Session, it was quite evident that the present Government had inherited a mess from the previous NOP administration and it was only right and jus t that they be given some time to look into the problems and address them. However, that time has lon g passed . This government has been in power now for some one and a half years and they have had plen ty of time to gr asp the problems and to address them, so legislation such as what is being brought forth now should have been introduced months ago.

For example, in Bill No. 46, why did the present gov ernment have to bring in a separate Bill to index pensions? Why could not this more com prehens ive Bill No. 56 have been brought in several months ago? Del ays in bringing in legislation and in deal ing with ad min istrative problems have caused considerable difficulty for both injured workers and emplo yers in the Province of Ma nitoba. Look at some of systemic problems, first the matter of adjudica tion. Ther e have been sev eral dela ys, ongoing delays in the initial judication.

The vast majority of claims, of course, are ajudicated within three weeks of the accident being repor ted, but nevert heless some claims do take much long er. For example, you might just say, Mr. Spea ker, that any examples I am setting forth right no w are just com bed from many, many, many complaints that our Mem bers on this side of the Ho use-a nd I would sug gest also that many Government ML As are getting similar calls from dissatisfied claima nts about their treatment at the Workers Com pensa tion Boar d.

Now this one particular case involved a sign langua ge interp reter, and this adjudication took well over a year. The interpreter was a young woman who develop ed tendon itis in her hands as a result of the cons tant repetitive motion of interpr eting the sign langua ge. This prob lem inevitably is not uncommon with sign lang uage interpr eters. However, this sign langua ge interpr eter was affected to a tar greater extent than usual and she was told by her physicians that she is unable to ever return to her career as a sign langua ge interp reter. (Mr.

William Ch ornop yski, Deputy Speaker , in the Chair ) This obviously presented a prob lem tor the Workers Comp ensa tion Board because the case was un usual and unpr ecedented and therefore it caus ed them quite a dilemma. Extens ive investigations were carried out and adjudication was dela yed and dela yed aga in. However, Mr. Deputy Speaker , there was a precedent in Al berta where another interpr eter had had a similar problem and was com pen sated . Ho wever , the 1923 adjudication here still took over a year.

The claima nt was eventually com pensated but, while waiting, went through some tremendous emotional anguish and also some financial difficul ty. It seems evident tha t com plex claims can take extreme long periods of time to adjud icate. Unpr ecedented claims do take long periods of time to adjud icate. Lengthy adjud ication is not common, but it is nevert heless una cceptable. It is un derstan dab le that certain claims might take a few weeks longer than usual, but not months and certainly not over a year. Another reason for lengthy adjudication is that claims often are passed from one adjudicator to ano ther.

Claims are now assigne d to adjudicators based on the geog raphic loca tion of the injured worker. Com plex cases are passed , for example, from adjud icator (1) to adjud icator (2) if the latter, the adjudicator (2), is more experienc ed. Com plex claims are sometimes passed to three of four adjudicators before they are finally deci de d , and each trans fer simply dela ys the adjudication. In the matter of appeals, this is one that has been the particular thorn in the side of, I wou ld say, all 57 Members here, but more particularly those of us on this side of the House.

Ther e are dela ys in the appeal process at all levels although there is evidence recently that this is improving. However, extremely lengthy delays are una cceptable. When a claimant disagrees with a decision and wants to appeal it, the claimant writes to the supervisor of adjudication and instructs the initial adjudicator to review his or her decision. If there is no change the appeal is forwarded to the review comm ittee. The first level of appeal, the review by the adjudicator, takes far too long and very rarely results in a change un less further evidenc e is pr es ented .

Very often adjud icators will wait for further medical evidence or further investigation and this causes prolong ed delays. lnc idental.ly, the Workers Compensation Board seems to have difficulty receiving medical informa tion at all levels of applica tion. If a repor t is not forthc oming, then the adjud icator simply waits instead of follo wing up to find the reason for del ay. In cases like this, of course, the claimant obviously suffers. In any event, this first level of app eal does not seem to be effective from the claimant's perspective. Appeals to the review comm ittee often take eight to ten weeks.

This is an improvement from earlier this year, but it is still una cceptably long.- (interjection)- You tell me. Well, zero defects. As well there sometimes appears to be a delay by the board in putting claima nts on the review comm ittee waiting lis t in the first pla ce. There seems to have been considerable improvement in the waiting period for appeals to the board . It seems that now when a claima nt requests an app eal , then an appointment for a hearing is set up, often within a month's time.

However, these decisions can take a long period of time to come down , that is, from the time of the hearing to the time of the decision. It is not very difficult for an appeal board to hear num erous cases in a week, but the problem is not

Tuesda� October 17, 1989 being solv ed and it takes several months to reach a decision. There are also problems with the medical review panels which can take months to review cases . So overall there is still considerable room for improvement, Mr. Deputy Speaker , in the whole appeal process. We look at person nel. There seems to be some difficulty with personnel at the board . For instance there have been problems with morale. Now the job of ad judic ation in par ticular is a str en uous one. Adjudicators have to make difficult decisions and there are constant time pressures on them.

The adjud icators often make decisions with which claimants disag ree. Cons equently they face abus e from aliena ted claimants. This is un derst andable. So two problems seem to resu lt. That is high staff turn over,. and frequently staff is abrupt with claimants. Now the high staff turno ver at the adjud icator level is a diffi cult one because it is hard to train new adjud icators. One cannot pick them off the street and put them into that type of a job. So this caus es del ays in adjud ication because new adjud icators can not deal with particularly com plex cases.

Because of this, cases are tran sferred more frequent ly, and in general there are more demands on the senior adjud icators, but not only the adjud icators, often the switchbo ard is abrup t with claima nts. This of cou rse is no t acc epta ble regard less of the pressure and regard less of the abus e from the odd claimant. The abrup tness creates further problems in the long run. The claima nts start to believe that the board is more or less "out to get them," and then the claima nts can beco me unr easonable. So there appears to be no ques tion , Mr .

Deputy Speak er, that the Workers Compensation Board has a public rela tions problem. Additional ly, adjudicators and other comp ensation board staff make commitments to get back to claimants either by telep hone or in writing, and they do not. This creates further aggrava tion. So there is a need for better training at the boa rd. Adjudicators in particular should learn to deal with the public in a more professional mann er. *

(1450) It is also important that adjudic ators are made aware of var ious board pol icies and procedures and that they are familiar with these polic ies and proced ures. Just two more examples, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to illus trate some of the problems with adjud ication. We had a call recently from a claima nt complai ning about the delay in the initial adjud ication of his particular cla im. This person had develop ed an allergic react ion to isocyanides and was una ble to re turn to work in that particular environment. It was not possible for him to be moved elsewhere at his pla ce of emplo yment.

He appl ied for . com pensa tion. Eventually , after missing several months of work, he was compen sated for seven days. No w even though he could no t re turn to his emplo yment, he was not injur ed. He could have worked els ewhere becaus e he more or .less quickly recovered from the. initial reaction to the isocyanides. He assumed , however, that he would be compensated for an indefinite period of time, and in fact he received advice from his union that he should be compen sated for the period he missed . Now he app ears to have received poor advice from his union, Mr. Deputy Speak er.

Ther e is no doubt about that, but the thing is that he did not receive any advice from the Workers Comp ens ation Board . The policy was to give him a maximum of seven da ys coverag e, and this should ha ve been communic ated to him at the outset. The adjudication should have been straight forward , and the adjud icator should immediately inform the claimant of his particular situation. It was just a matter of poor communic ation in that particular instance. Ano ther example illus trating some of the need for training of perso nn el involv es a CNR emplo yee or worker . Now this worker injured his hand.

He was off work and received com pen sation for several months. The adjudicator received a medical repor t that the injur ed worker could probably return to work with light duties and was told by the CNR that light duties were not available. The adjudic ator called the injured worker to discuss a return to work, and the injured worker was strongly of the opinion that he could not return, even in a light duties' capacity. I should make a corr ection there. I think I said he was told by the CNR that light duties were not availab le, light duties were available. In any event, the injured worker was cut off benefits.

He then attempted to return to work, but before doing so was required by the CNR to take a medical exam from their own physician. This examining physician recommende d that he be put back on benefits. So the injur ed worker was re instated because of this but not retroactively to the day he was initially terminated . The reason given by the adjudicator was that the injur ed worker was not co-operativ e in trying to get back to work , yet it · is obvious he was injured for the entire period.

This par ticular worker was told that he would have to appeal to the review comm ittee, and that is where the claim is current ly. This is fine, that is part of the process. However, it seems clear here that the injur ed worker should have automatically been retroa ctively reinstated. The facts are clear, and there should not be any need for this particular worker to have to wait for whatever the time period is to go through the appeal process, waiting on the part of the claimant and als o taking up time and effort on the part of the board .

This case has contri buted gr eatly to the poor public image of the board , and unf ortuna tely workers at the CNR particularly have a very negat ive percept ion. So it is clear that with better staff training and more consistency the Workers Com pensa tion Board would be better off. With the ma tter of re organ ization , Mr . Deputy Speak er, the reorg an ization is under way, considerable prog ress has been made, but really it is not accep tabl e. We re cogn ize the diffi cu lties involv ed with comput erization, but now it would be nice to see some tangible ev idence of improv ements and ser vice .

Electro nic trac;king of files does not appear to be in place. They can still take days to find a file. The inquiry 1924

Tuesday, October 17, 1989 unit is hel pfu l, but it sometimes takes as long as three days for them to respond. The idea of combining service depa rtments, as reco mm ended by the King Comm ission, is a very position one, yet there still do es not seem to be adequate co-ord ination, and there does not seem to be the emphasis there should be on rehabili tation. Many injured workers want very much to be retrained , and they are eligible for retraining, but they simply wait and in many cases worr y about being term inated.

Th ere have been positive steps such as the creat ion of the Pol icy and Research Depar tment, the issuing of the compr ehensiv e plan in August and the creat ion of the In ternal Ombuds man -a ll very positive moves, Mr. Deputy Speaker . We do recog nize many of the positive thing s that have been done and are also in process. So we do hope that Bill 56, which we will have before too long, we hope, will include the legisla tive chang es needed to real ly overhaul and improve the system. Now we just might mention , Mr. Deputy Speaker , the King Commis sion Report.

Now this summ ary of all the recommendations that were in the whole report -a nd remem ber this was a tripartite comm ission with a rep resentative from workers, a repres entative from emplo yers and a neutral chairperson-c ontained finally 178 rec ommendations and of the se 178 recommendations, 165 of them were unani mous on the part of this tripartite board . As I have said a few times before, one would be very hard put to find any just cause as to why all of these at least unanimous recommenda tions should not be impl emented .- (interjection)- Mr. Deputy Speaker : Ord er, ple ase. Order . Mr.

Patterson: Bill 56 is long overdue. This present Govern ment should have brought in at least these key recommenda tions much earl ier. Early legislation wou ld gr eatly have assisted in the reorgan ization and the improvement of service. So if we just look at several of these recommenda tions, some of which you might call key ones, reco mmen dation No. 5 recommends continu ed training in the area of human rela tions. We just finished discussing this at great length when I talked abo ut the problems with perso nnel and training.

Recom mendation No. 9, this recommends that the board allo w workers to receive their permanent impairment pensions by way of a lump sum if they so wish, rather than a monthly payment, This seems to be a perfect ly straight forward recommenda tion, as oftentimes injured workers who are younger could use a lump sum payment to re-establish themselv es in another career, perhaps to start a business or whatever, but why should workers not have the choice? Recom menda tion No. 12, Mr. Deputy Speaker , this recommends that the

section of the Act requiring emplo yers to report to the board within three days be enforced . Currently many emplo yers do not comply with this particular

section of the Act, and need less to say this resu lts in further dela ys. Amon gst the worst violators in this particular case is the CNR. There have been nu merous injur ed CN worker s who ha ve 1925 complai ned about slo w adjudication only to find out that Form 2, the emplo yer's repor t, has not been forw arded . So this particula r

section of the Act-t his is in the current Act -m ust be enf orced. The board has the author ity and the teeth to do it. Rec ommenda tion No. 13, this re commenda tion outlines time limits for adjudication and appeal. With limits put in leg islation, the importanc e of dealing speed ily with cases wou ld be funda mental .

Recommendation No. 21, this states that the average weekly earn ings should be the gr eater of (1) 1/ 52 of the actual earnings of the injured worker for the 12 months immediately preceding the start of the loss of earn ings as a result of the injury, or (2) the rate of daily, weekly, monthly or other regula r earnings that the injured worker was receiving at the start of loss of earn ings as a result of the injury and then this amount conv erted to a weekly amount.

Now in many industries, for example the construction industry, workers make their mone y during a very short period of time and if earnings are calcu lated over one year and they miss some numb er of weeks during their peak seaso n, they will not receive fair com pensa tion. Ho wever , the re mu st be a cou nterbala nc e so the workers cannot colle ct a seasonally high amount for the entir e year. • (15 00) Look at reco mm enda tions 40 and 41. Recommendation 40 states that adjudicator guidelines be publ ished by the Workers Comp ensation Board outlining the mean ing of the role of presumption.

In deed the board should publ ish adjudicator guidelines to ensur e consis tency in adjudication and to improve communic ations. Recommendation 41 states that the guidelines include one, that the onus is on the board to disprove a claim and not on the claimant to prove the cla im, and second, that no incident is required for a claimant to be compensa tible. Now injured workers who suffer from back probl ems, most particularly muscular industries, have considerable prob lems with the board . It is difficult to measure pain of course.

Many injured workers suffer an obvious back injury and receive comp ensa tion, and then they are terminated even though they claim they have not recovered. Often these workers have specialists who agree with them that they still suffer pain and have not recovered . There is not clear evidence however that they are still injured, simply the injured work er's word and the medical opinio ns. The Workers Com pen sation Board can app rove the injured worker who is not still injured, but feels that he or she should ha ve reco vered from the compensa tible injury. Another example, Mr.

Deputy Speaker, is an injured worked that we have been deal ing with. This particu lar worker injured his back. He had no prior history of back trouble and after seve ral months he was terminated. Now the majority of medical evidence indicates that he still suffers back problems. Yet the board indicated

Tuesda� October 17, 1989 that he should have recovered and he lost all of his appeals . At the board hearing he was asked , how long do you think it will be before you will be able to get back into the work force? This is a que stion he should not have been expected to an swer, and incidentally he is eligible for a disab ility tax credit from the federal Government. So it appears obvious that the board term ina ted this par ticular worker and refused to reinstate him because he was unable to prove that he had been unable to recever.

Workers who are injur ed as a resu lt of long-term problems rather than a single incident have unne cessary difficulties. Often workers who are exposed to toxic chemicals and who suffer from occupa tional diseases have difficulties, for instance the case involvi ng the sign langua ge interp reter that I referred to earl ier. These types of inj uries result in lengthy adjud ications and sometimes it appears to be un fair denial. Recommenda tion 10 5, Mr.

Deputy Sp eak er, states that the method for compensa ting workers based on 75 percent of gross income should be repla ced by a net income formula, and that about 90 percent of net income would be best. No w at present inj ur ed workers with huge tax deductions are better off on compensa tion, based on the gross income formula, but the net income formula is better for workers who have families. Recommendation 135 states that The Emplo yment Standa rds Act should be amended to guar antee that employers should not fire an injur ed worker simpl y because they have an inju ry.

There have unfor tuna tely been nu merous examples where it appears that workers have been let go after years of loyal employment sim ply because they have been injur ed . Recommendation 14 0 states that the Act should be amended to allow claimants to both claim compensation and initiate lawsuits agains t third parties. Another example, Mr. Deputy Sp eaker, is a case involving a worker who was injur ed in a motor vehicle accident. This indi vidual is emplo yed as a wholesale distribu tor, and he was actually on his way to lun ch in a vehicle owned by his company and dr iven by a fellow employee.

While stopp ed at a light, this vehicle was hit by another vehicle and this particular worker was serious ly injur ed. Now the fault was entirely with the other driver and the worker wanted to pur sue the matter civi lly and he was allowed to by the Workers Compensat ion Board at first. Four years later, after this worker had spent about $8,0 00 in legal fees, the Workers Compensa tion Board was convinced by the third party, which is also an employer covered by the board , that the case should be covered by the Workers Com pensation Board and the board did accept respon sibilit y.

However, to date this worker's claim for his out-of-pocket expens es in legal fees, dr ugs, and so on, have not been fully paid by the board . Now it appears that the intent of the original Act has been violated. The Act was never intended to protect third parties . Rec ommenda tion 15 4 states tha t the Workers Compensa tion Board should have no role in determining whether or not a medical review panel should be convened. Now it would seem only fair that an injur ed worker should be entitled to such a panel if it is recommended by his physician.

So overall, most of the recommenda tions of the King Commission, or the King Review Committee, should have been implemented months ago and service would be improved today if the necessary structu ral framework was in place. In conclusion, Mr. Deputy Sp eaker, it appears obvious that this Government has not seriously add ressed the problems at the Worker s Compensation for us. The Government has not put in place a framework to deal with the structural problems. Structural problems have clearly been at the root of delays and initial adjudication.

Although most cases are dealt with efficiently, it is una cceptable that a few claims take long periods of time. The ap peal process has improved but the length of time is still una cceptab le. There are continuing problems in the area of personnel, problems which really compl icate adjudica tion. A more serious effort must be made in the area of human relations. More training is needed , because training is critical if reorganization is going to result in more efficiency. Training should be in place to ensur e that the staff can opera te in the new system. We need trai ning in computers, for example.

So overall the reorg an iza tion is dependent on legislative changes being implemented . Bill No. 46, which did increase the pensions for the cost of living increases, should not have been necessar y. Bill No. 56 should have been introduced several months ago. This Go vern ment's la ck of act ion has caus ed problems for the system and thus for both the injur ed workers and the emplo yees. Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker . QUE ST ION put , MOT ION carried and the Ho use resolved · itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be gr anted to Her Ma je sty with the Honour able Member for Minnedosa (Mr.

Gilleshammer) in the Chair for the Depar tment of Health; and the Honour able Member for Burrows (Mr. Chornopy skl) in the Chair for the Department of Rur al Development. * (1 51 0) CONCURRENT COMMI TTEES OF SUPPL Y SUPPL Y-H EALTH Mr. Chairman (Harold Gilleshammer ): When we last met on Thu rsday the committee had been considering item 1. (

b) Execu tiv e Supp ort, 1. (b)

(1) Salaries, $39 4,300 -the Member for Kildonan. Mr. Guizar Cheema (Kildonan) : Mr. Chai rperson, last Thur sday when we were ending the part of the debate in the open ing statements, a numb er of allegations were 1926

Tuesday, October 17, 1989 made by the Minister of Health (Mr. Orchard). They were very inappropria te because I think we are here to discuss not perso nal professional allegations, but a Health Estimate which we relate to the public and not to any particular person at all. I think if we keep that in mind we will not waste taxpa yers' dollars. Hon. Donald Orchard (Minister of Health): After the last hour in the House, you are going to make that comment, about wasting taxpa yers' dolla rs with my staff sitting here waiting for Estimates to commence. ***** Mr. Chairman: The Member for Transcona (Mr.

Kozak), on a point of order. Mr. Richard Kozak (Transcona): Mr. Chairman , the Liberal official Opposition is extremely concerned to give the full exhaus tive consideration to these Estimates, tha t the Mini ster of Health hi mself has ur ged us repe atedly to make in the past . We can assure him that we will not disappoint him with the exhaust ive treatment of these Estimates. ** ** * Mr. Chairman: I thank the Hono urable Member. He does not have a point of order. I recognize the Member for Kildonan. Mr. Cheema: Mr. Chairperso n, I think the Minister of Health (Mr.

Orchard) had his time, half an hour, and I think it would be very kind if he would let other people speak. When his turn comes, probably then he should talk. Mr. Chai rpers on, about his first perso nal allegation about my personal professiona l abili ties, I will not tolerate any kind of harassment or allegation from him in the future. I am making it very clear. Mr. Chai rpers on, let us talk about his mismanagement. He has become very known as a crisis manager. Let me go back to his decision last year about Selkirk Hospital.

That has become sort of a cornerstone for ever yone to dis cuss how he deals with the Department of Hea lth, and how he make s decisions on circumstantial evidence and on a hasty situation without thinking what is going to be the outcome. * (1 520) His theory was to second two psychiatrists from Selkirk to Brandon in a desperate situation. By ordering that, Mr. Chai rpers on, he not only did a disservice to Sel kirk, but he did a disservice to Brandon as well as the whole of Manitoba. Two people resigned and that was the outcome of his actions and that is even being felt now.

Becaus e of his actions there is one full time and one executive director who is provi ding services to a large numb er of patients. If he calls this good management, I think everyone would dis agree with him. Mr. Chai rperson , let us go back to his remarks in regard to Pine Falls Hospital. He said that the Pine Falls people were very hap py. The y were very disappoint ed with us. I think he is jus t reading the one side of the story and he should not mislead the public. Just by taking one side politically which favours their own riding, they are not doing a service becaus e they are ignoring a large

section of the commun ity. Around Pine Falls there is Fort Alexander and a num ber of other reserves. A numb er of other reserves have been denied adequa te care in the past, and they are still being denied . Fort Alexander is an excellent commun ity of about 4,000 people. They are ready for someone to come and practise medicine in their own commun ity but the numb er of areas have been put for one reason or another. The basic point is, how can you say that the Pine Falls Hospital and the area is getting good service when a large

section of the community is not satisfied . I think that is probably more a political statement coming from one editorial rather than looking at the whole aspect of the health care system in that region. That is misleading. A numb er of times, I said the other day that in the health care system, after spending 1.5 billion it is not un iversal and it is not accessible. I repeat that for almost every surgic al procedure people have to wait. I think he is misguiding the public by saying that we are going to have instant su rgery.

He should work and look like a Min ister of Health, not as a political opportun ist just for a few minutes of glory and then he is going to repent. He is going to be sorry for what he did to Sel kirk, the same way he is going to be sorry for other services in Man itoba. He repeated allegations that we have not come up with any solid proposals for any of the problems in the health care system, Mr. Chairman .

If he reads the Ha nsard of last year -a nd I agree with him that I may have some langua ge barrier -b ut the meaning he should read and most people under stand is that we have prop osed a numb er of good ideas. I do not think he or any other Minister has to hide behind any personal langua ge barrier . That is the reality of Manitoba and he has to face it, the sooner the better. We have prop osed to solve a numb er of issues and I would repeat that one of them has been very well accepted , not only in Manitoba but in the rest of the cou ntry.

He kn ows full well that some of his plans are possibly against the Charter of Rights even. His proposal of giving funds to one

section of the commun ity and not giving to another is not right. It has been challenged in other places and recently even the Alberta College of Physicians was challenged on that. We do not want to see that kind of message going out in Man itoba. I think that is un fair and he should correct his mistake and come to his senses, politically, and make sur e that people who are ready to practise medicine should be given an equal chance.

If they fulfill all the right req uir ements, if they are clinically kno wledgeable, if they have all the requir ements, why do we have to run away from Man itoba and do the opposite and waste taxp ayers' dollars. I do not think we will stand for that. I want to let the Health Critic for the New Democratic Party know because his Leader has stated publ icly that he also opp oses that action. We will see when we go to that item that has to be sorted out. 1927

Tuesday, October 17, 1989 f;or any effective health care system the planning has to b� for today and tomorr ow and for the futur e. After hearing the other day a half-hour initial statement I did not get any conclusi ve evidenc e that this ministry is moving in the right direction. They are fixing a few thin gs here and there but they do not have the long term planning. That will become more and more clear when we go line-by -line in the Estimates.

His idea of co-opera tion with the professiona l groups as I indicated in the past is just to go behind their backs or ig nor e a certa in sect io n of health care professionals. It is not a part nersh ip in the health care system. Rep resentation on the health advisory network is a clear example. Manitoba deserves better than the present Health Min ister (Mr. Orchard) they have.

When he has the chance in a minor ity Government to work and pro duce all the good things, I do not think anybody in his right mind will refuse any conclus ive plans coming from this Minis ter, but we have not seen anything coming, other than having personal allegations. I think there is nothing he is good at doing, other than having perso nal allega tions, and that has to stop because I do not think from now on I am going to even waste my time to reply to his personal allegations. Let the pub lic be the judge.

The other day, Mr: Chai rpers on, he stood up in the House and said that on the AIDS campaign their record is the best . I think he is mislead ing in a way. It took him nine months to make a brochur e, ju st to simply change the colour of the bro chur e, simply to change the colour of the broch ure from orange to blue. That does not mean that they are doing better than the previous admi nistration.

I do agree with him on one thing, that their campai gn, right now, as far as the TV ads and the other things, that excellent one, very prog ressive one-and we said that we supp ort that- but the process took them one year. It took them one year and now the other day he stood up in the House and he said that he does not favour the need le exchange program, he is sending a message that he does not have the insight of how to deal with the AID S issue right now and for the future. He looks at the small num bers, .-but that num ber is sign ifica11tly important.

Even thou gh the IV drug users are only 2 percent to 3 percent contributing to the sp read of disease, .it is going to get worse if . nothin g is. being done. · Why there has to be' perso nal belief attached tO any programs, it shoul d not be the cast!, but when you have $50,000 and more money available to use in a· program, suc �r .as is very widely accepted. scientifically, I think it is th� wise way of spendi ng taxp ayers' money and I disagr ee with him when he said in the news media that h; not the right way of wasting taxpayers' dol lars .

That is _absolu tely . wrong,. and all the pr ofessional groups will disagree with him. Mr. Chai rpers on, over the summer there is one very significant problem tha t resulted because of. this Minister. in that his misinformation or not kno wing·what he .. was d.oing in terms of Jhe Mental Health Act, .he almost violated . The Mental Heal th Act. He changed ttie Mental Health Review Boa rd; and when we aske-d him the question in the House, in his political way of answering qu estions, he is very good. Even the message even did not go across where he was, you kno w, something was done. He changed the whole board.

It took six weeks to put the new board s in, new board members in and to retrain them, and that is not acceptable. Patients were kept against their will in some of the institutions. The exact numb er is not known and we may never kno w the exact num bers, but that is wrong. He accepted that, it was the front-page story, he should read it. He is reading other people's editorials, he should read his own, as one of the stories he should read . He should read the editorial saying: Orchard blu ndering on Selkirk psychiatry situa tion. He should read that too; he should read that. That was last year. Mr.

Chai rperson, lest I deviate from the constru ctive criticism here, I will leave his personal things for people to judge, and I will end by saying let us jus t go line by line and work on the qu estions, rather than going on the perso nal problems. Thank you. Mr. Chairman: Shall the item pass? The Member for Thomps on. Mr. Steve Ashton (Thompson): Mr. Chairperson, I must say it was an interesting experience last time we discussed the Department of Health in Estimates when we introduc ed the debate.

It was interesting because the Mini ster of Health reverted back to the type of appr oach that I came to kno w as bei ng his style, came to kno w pretty well my first years in the Legislatur e. He has been in the Legislature longer than I have.

He is one of the veterans of this Ho use, was elected in the Sterl ing Lyon era, and I think in 1981 und ertook to carry the torch to continue the style and app roach of Sterling Lyon in the Legislature. * (:1530) That was the Min ister of Health who I came to kn ow when I was first elected as a Member of the Legislatur e, having been elected by constituents who suffered under the Sterl ing Lyon Government, and who sent me here to make sur e that never happ ened again. I remember being engaged in some pretty tough de bates with the Min ister at the time, as were many others of my Pa rty who were elected in 19 81.

Then something happened to the Minis ter. I think it probably had something to do with his interest in the Conservative Leadership, bl!t the sty!e changed. AH of a sudden the Min ister of Health was trying to convince people, this is when he was in Op positi on, that he was not a rural right winger, that he was not a Sterling Lyon rei ncarna te, that he was someho w mains tr eam Man itoba. That lasted for a period of time.

When he became Health Minister the attempt to be moderate continued, but !· ·think we saw, as we introduc ed the Estimates earlie r, that the facade has been torn down by the Minister and he is right back to where he was in 198 1, Sterl ing Lyon reincar!"late. I even heard the Minister talki ng. about shibb oleths the other .d ay in .the .H ealth Depart ment Estimates. I have .not. heard that express ion since. Sterling Lyon, So I think we are seeing a reversion back to that style. I 1928

Tuesday, October 17, 1989 just hope that we do not also see a reversion back to the subs tance of that period . It was interesting in looking back to 19 81, I remember when the New Democra tic Party was elected and looked at the situation in health care at the time, I remember my own constitue ncy comparing the hospital budge ts prior to the election of the Sterling Lyon Government and the actual drop. I am not talking about lower increase in inflation, but the actual drop that took pl ace in the fundin g for that hospital, and how that was built up over the years.

I remember that being the case across this province. It was interesting. Even the Min ister himself last year, on Octo ber 25, 19 88, his first statement as Min ister of Health at Estimates, stated that the system he inherited from the previous Governme nt and it was, and I quote, our health system is among the best in the nation or any other. Tha t was the leg acy of this Min ister. It is not what you would have un derstood from his com ments the other day. He went to great rhetorical splendour in terms of trying to establish the case.

That was not the case, but that is the Min ister's own words that we have when he came into office, one of the best systems in the nation. I want to say to the Min ister that as an opposition Critic wha t I want to make sur e is he keeps it the best , if anyth ing can improve upon it. I want to make it clear to the Minister that when action is taken that is positive, l will be the first one to lend my sup port to it as critic for the New Democratic Party, as will our caucus.

I even stated in my open ing comments, there have been some initiatives which have been taken, which I think we can all suppor t, ju st as the Mem ber I am sur e would ackno wledge there are many initiatives taken by !he previous Go vernment, by the NOP, that he wou ld have sup por ted, in fact did sup port at the time, a numb er of initiatives. I indicated when there is inaction, we will criticize the Govern ment for it. I mentioned last time I spoke about the health promotion trus t fund and the inaction that has taken pla ce. The Min ister has recycled that announcement ad naus eam .

He re nearly a year and a half later he is st ill announcing. I think the last annou ncement we had from the Min ister was that he was esta blishing criteria for this fund. This, by the way, is virtually a carbon copy of a fund introduc ed by the NO P, which he criticized when he was the Minister. Now we will forgiv e him for perhaps being misguided at the time, but as opposition Critics I think we will not forg ive him for refusing to act in this regar d . We will als o be critical in other areas.

In terms of spe nding, for example, I wou ld note once again in the Min ister's introd uctory comments last year, and he wou ld set out the Min ister's agenda, and I think it was a legitimate agen da on his part, and I give him cred it for referring to it up front.

I do not think he was quite as up front in this particular opening statement that he gave just a few short days ago, but he talked basically at length about his main goal as Health Min ister was, "to maximize efficiencies in the delivery of health services .'' 1929 I want to say that this may be the type of issue which we have to agree to disag ree upon in terms of the type of emphasis, the type of bias, and it is not that people do not want an efficient health care sys tem, Mr.

Chairpers on, but people remember how many of these same phrases were used as a pretext by the Sterling Lyon Governm ent of which the Min ister was a Mem ber and a vocal suppor ter, provoco proponent, of those polic ies. When the words were taken maximizing efficiency and the del ivery of health care services were taken for an excuse to cut back in terms of resources and services that were being offered in this province. We will raise our concern about that. As I said the Min ister is very up front in his agenda.

He spent considerable part of his first statement in this committee giving a clear indication that that was his basic goal as a Min ister. In fact, he highlig hted two general areas. He said first the fiscal and econ omic situation in health services. That was his first concern, his first priority. Now, some of us may say perhaps the Min ister was misguided in his No. 1 conc ern.

Some wou ld have asked whether he should have been more conc erned about improving the health care system and maintaining it at a very difficult time in terms of development, whether the Min ister should have been talking about the need for more health care promotion or should have been talking about the chal lenges of demog raphy. You kno w we have an aging population. Wha t is this Go vern ment's pol icy in regard to that? I think those are the type of questions that maybe some would have expected the Min ister to raise last year, but he did not, and he did not in this time. I find it rather ironic, Mr.

Chairpers on, that when he opened the Health Estimates and replied to the comments made by the Opposition critics by myself and the Mem ber for Kildonan (Mr. Cheema), but the Minister tal ked about lack of vision. Well, I do not kno w what the vision of this Min ister is in terms of the health care system other than, as I said, to quote, "m aximize efficiencies." I am not really sure if this Min ister has a lon g-term vision. I am not sure if this Government has a lon g-term vision. I think the bottom line is they are in a minority situation.

They may slip back into the phrases of Sterling Lyon, but they kno w as long as they are in a minority position they canno t slip back into the polic ies. The Min ister for Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) probably may find it strange at times talking like a red Tory because of the minority situation. I am sure his constituents must wonder sometimes with some of the statements he has made in the Ho use. The same for the Min ister of Health (Mr . Orchard), talking like a red Tory, as if they had a lon g-term comm itment to social programs and health pr ograms in this province, and com passion. Mr.

Chai rpers on, for those of us who remember the Sterl ing Lyon period, and those like myself who came in 19 81, we wou ld alm ost laugh at it. It is was not such a serious matter, but that is really the situation we are in. We have a shor t-term situation wher e we have a Go vern ment that is essen tially committed as the No. 1 priority, "maximizing efficiency in the delivery of health care servic es." Tha t is the bottom line with this Go vernment. What I bel ieve has happened is that, yes,

Tuesda� October 17, 1989 there , have been some initiatives that were taken that were positive, but in many other areas we are seeing either inaction, or else, as I said, in terms of some areas, some people have actually had their service cut. I think that is the bottom line with this Government, and it comes from the fact that we are in a period where they do not have a long-term strategy other than sur viving until the next election. Qui te fran kly, I hope the Min ister will take the time to outline what his vision is for th e health care system thr oughout th ese Estimates.

I am not sure If the people of Man itoba will like that vision. I am sure that if the people of Manitoba were watching the deba te last time we were sitting, they would have been amazed at this Min ister. I was amazed qui te fran kly. I have not seen this the Min ister like this for a numb er of years. He used to be like that on a regular basis when he was in Oppos ition, but I would say first of all, for example, that his attacks on the professional credibility of the Member for Kildonan were totally out of line.

I do not kno w who the Minister of Health thinks he is, but because he is the Minis ter of Hea lth, I do not think It is appropr iate for him to be lecturing a practising physician on the practice of health care. I do not think that is appropriate. It is fine for the-well, the Minis ter of Northern Affairs (Mr. Downey) does, too. He is not a doctor either, and I am not a doctor either, and I am not a doctor either and I would say- An Honourable Member: What are you? * (15 40) Mr. Ashton: I am an economist by ba ckgr ound, and I would say that it is absolutely un called for, for the Min ister of Health (Mr.

Orchard ) to get into those. The Mem ber for Kil donan (Mr . Cheema) I think acknowledged it and I give him credit for not responding in kind, but those types of personal attacks. I believe the Member for Kild onan -and we may have our differences at times-i s a capable ind ividual, he is a capable physician, and he certainly does not need any lectures from the Min ister of Health on the practice of medicin e in this provi nce. I think that is the first thing that should be sa id.

But the other thing that I think was most no teworthy about last time was that when the Min ister was prodded by the open ing comments of the Oppo sition Members his basic arguments were once again all on the deficit side. He went on for about 10 or 15 minutes in rhetorical splendor about the deficit that was left to him by the previous Govern ment. He did not talk, as I said , about the best health care system in the country which he acknowledged last year as being the case. He .talked about the deficit.

It makes me wC>nc;ler if. really we are not reverting back to what I said before, the real agenda being a. cost. .cutting, cost control mechanis m and that because we. are in a minority situa tion we .do not see the full amount of it. we· just see the tip of the iceberg .

I would say if the average. person in Manitoba, the average hosp ital worker, for exam ple, last time was to be watching this, the average patient, anybody .who has had any conne cttc>n in the medical system, i would say they would be very concerned that the d irection of policy for this Government is being set by the cu rrent Min ister of Health (Mr. Orchard) because the talk was once again of that right-wing, Sterl ing Lyon na ture, something that I think we should have learned our lesson from between 19 77 and 19 81. I would have thought the Min ister of Health would have learned his lesson.

For awhile it appeared he did, but I think that is the true agenda of this Government. What they should be doing instead of emphasizing this right-wing fixation of theirs is working to maintain the health care $ystem and working to improve it. I want to deal with maintaining it initially because that is important . We are faced with a major decline in su pport for the health care system from the federal Government. Over the next several years we are lookin g at losing a total of about $141 million in trans fer payments, $101 million out of that will come from the health care system.

So what we are faced with is a decline in federal su pport for Med icare, and let us not forget the background of Medicare as it was set up in the 19 60s, it was cost shar ed between the federal and provi ncial Governments. We raised this a numb er of years ago and it is interesting because I remember the NOP raised it in Government, and the action on behalf of the Cons ervative Members who were then in Opposition was one of saying, no, there have not been cutbacks. Wha t they failed to realize at the time was the percentage share from the federal Government has declined su bstantial ly.

Despite the commitment of the Cons ervative Prime Min ister to maintain that share, it has declined. So what we are faced with is the need to be looking at more and more absorpt ion of the bur den for health care costs by the provi ncial Government and that is something we have to be dealing with. I mentioned some of the other challenges in the health care system and this is looking ahead again too, at something I think the Minister should be add ress ing, and I think it is important for all Members to be addr es sing. I mentioned about the demographic situa tion.

We have an aging population in this provi nce, it is a national trend . Yet what we are seeing on the part of the Government is the confusion in the area of seniors policy. It is certainly evident in the Depart ment of Health, the

section that is responsible for policy in regard to seniors. I remember well-a nd it was not a que stion asked I kn ow by our caucus but it was asked by the other opp osition Party in the Legislature-when the Minis ter responsible for Seniors was asked what initiatives he had taken in the area of seniors policy, and the answer was-w ell, actually there was no answer. There was no answer to\vhat direction the Govern ment has taken.

Really we have to recognize that is a growing situation and it is going to impact most directly on the health care system, because whether it be in regard to the hospital system where. seniors use the hospital system far more than the average Manitoba, whether it be in regard to Pharm acare where seniors, I believe, use the Pharina c11-re system on average double the level of other Man itob;:ms,. whether it bE! in the area of home care 1,930

Tuesday, October 17, 1989 wher e we onc e again indicate our own concern about the Government's prior ities in that area, whether it be in the area of personal care homes, or in the whole spec trum of seniors' pol icy I think has to be raised at this point in time. In these Estimates we will be asking the Min ister some very direct questions about the direction he wi ll take in terms of seniors' policy. Let us look ahead to the futur e, onc e again, in terms of health promo tion.

We took the initiative to bring in the Health Promotion Trust Fund and if there was one criticism I think that could be made of the previous Go vernment, legitimate criticism, is that perhaps that Health Promotion Trust Fund should have been brought in earli er. I think that is something that I think could be a legitimate criticism. I would say the real question though to be asked now is why this Government, when it criticized that fund when it was introduc ed by the previous Government, has now taken cl ose to 18 months to do absol utely nothing in this vital area.

It set up a fund, it does not even have criteria for the fund yet. I think we are going to have to ask some very serious questions about why this Governm ent refuses to move in this key area. Also, in terms of specific program areas, I ag ree with the Mem ber for Kildo nan (Mr . Cheema) in terms of some of the key areas, in terms of AIDS, for example, which is a gr owing problem. The clear message from people is that the Govern ment has not been respond ing to the needs, it is only just getting arou nd to looking at the needs, for example, to get right out where the probl em is and that is on the streets.

The Government is dr agg ing its heels on something that is an emer ging issue. I do not think anybody , even a year ago, realized how important a problem it was. Let us look at drug and alcohol abuse. Look ahead , once again, to the future. The level of consumption of illegal drugs has dropped, the average num ber of people using them has dropped . But what has happ ened is a high er percentage of people each year are using what could best be des cribed as hard- core drugs, facing the very severe physical , mental and emotional risks tha t go with drug abuse.

I think some very serious questions have to be asked about the Government's appr oach in that area. It has brought in a program of sorts, it has some activities out there in terms of education and I would be the first to support it, but we are going to have to be faced with the fact there are going to be people com ing into the system who require not only education, but also treatment. I think that is a very serious question that this Govern ment has to ask itself, what it is going to do in that area.

I look also at the situation, once again the promotional health area, in no rthern Manitoba where we have a much higher deg ree of medical problems because of socioeconomic conditions.- (interjection)- I am gl ad the Min ister of Northern Affa irs (Mr . Downey) talks about the dialysis machine. I, along with the people in Thomp son , the Kidney Fou ndation, wrote the Min ister on that, he referred it to the comm ittee and announc ed it back in August. I would be the fi rst to commend the Min ister on that. As I said, I will commend the Min ister wh ere he does listen and I will criticize where he does not.

I can list 10 other items in nor thern Man itoba where 1931 the Min ister has not responded and each time the Minister finally does listen , I think we in the North will congra tula te the Min ister. It may be to our amazement at times, because the Minister is probably better kno wn for his speak ing abil ities rather than his listening abil ities. That is something I think anybody who has sat in the Legisla ture with the Minister, as I have for eight years and I kno w some of the other Mem bers just for the two years, would be the first to agree to. Let us tal k about the situation in norther li Manitob a.

We have a problem that is worsening because of the fact that the shor tages, in terms of physicians, both speci al ists and general prac tition ers, is becoming increasingly worse. In my own constituenc y we went from having appro ximately 12 general practitioners, just a couple of years ago, to the point wher e earlier this year we had a level of between five and six. Cu rrent ly, after lobb ying by the hospital board , there has been the app roval for emergency medical officers, two in the Thom pson area. But the question is whether those positions can be filled .

I kno w in the process of having those funds approved, there was at least one doctor who was interested in moving to the commun ity who moved elsewhere so we lost the oppor tun ity to fill that position. That is in my own constituenc y. It is a similar problem througho ut the North, and in fact we were beco ming rel iant more and more on doctors who have less and less of a stake in the North, doctors who are coming to northern communities and rural com mun ities only to establish for immigration purpo ses and then are leaving very shortly thereafter. We are in a very fortuna te situation.

If it was not for the crisis in South Africa, we would not have doctors in a lot of northern commun ities right now because that has been the bigge st source of doctors, is from South Africa. It is ironic that because of the

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Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	34-2-51
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	34th 2nd hansardpdf 51.pdf
Language	en
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