Manitoba Hansard — 21 May 1985 (Sitting 52A, 32nd Legislature, 4th Session)

32-4-52a

Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)

LEGISLATIVE AS SEMBLY OF MANITOBA Tueada� 21 May, 1985. Time - 2:00 p.m. OPENING PRAYER by Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER, Hon. J. Welding: Presenting Petitions . . . Reading and Receiving Petitions . . . Presenting Reports by Standing and Special Committees . MINISTERIAL STATEM ENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, I want to table the Supplementary information for Estimates review of the Department, 1985-86 Estimates. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a Ministerial Statement.

I'd like to make an announcement of another important contribution by the Manitoba Jobs Fund to the economic employment growth of this province. Mo ments ago I had the pleasure of signing a development agreement with Vicon Canada, a subsid iary of Vicon B. V. of Holland, one of the world's leading short-line farm equipment manufacturers. Vicon, you will remember, recently purchased the assets of Co-op Implements. The company has been Investigating sites In Western Canada and has decided to locate their ag equipment manufacturing facilities here in Manitoba. Mr.

Speaker, Vicon will employ 130 Manltobans directly by 1989, and by relying heavily on other Manitoba companies to undertake sub-contracts, they will create an additional 300 local jobs and by maintaining Co-op Implements sales people, some 107 jobs which might have been lost will now be saved. That's a total of more than 530 permanent jobs, jobs which might have gone elsewhere, were it not for the Jobs Fund Development Agreement. Through Its decision to locate here, Vicon has shown confidence in the economy of Manitoba, Mr.

Speaker, the same confidence that Gravure Graphics of Winnipeg showed when it decided to sign a development agreement and to stay here and to expand, directly affecting more than 200 Manitoba jobs. The Toro Company of Mlnneapolis also signed a development agreement and located a manufacturing plant In Steinbach, thus showing confidence in Manitoba. The confidence these companies have shown in our province, Mr. Speak er, has resulted in some 755 permanent jobs and millions of dollars of investment in the Manitoba economy.

Statistics Canada says investors have confidence in Manitoba, with investment intentions this year expected to show the strongest overall Increase in the country. The Royal Bank says confidence in the economy of Manitoba will be reflected in the best investment increase in the west over the next decade. This confidence in our province is well deserved, Mr. Speaker, and is a feeling which Is being expressed by many, many Manitobans. Mr. Speaker, I would like to welcome Vicon Canada to Manitoba.

Their presence here will ensure that we will continue to be the key farm equipment manuf acturing centre in Western Canada. I'd also like to commend the officials of my department, Industry, Trade and Technology, as well as the Local of the United Steelworkers for their efforts to assist Vicon to locate its operation in Manitoba. MR. SPEAK ER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Member for Roblin-Russell. MR. W. McKENZIE: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. We on this side of the House welcome this long-awaited announcement of the Honourable Minister that Vicon has purchased the assets of Co-op Implements. Mr.

Speake r, I'm quite concerned about the management of the affairs of our province. We just finished the examination of the spending Estimates of the Honourable Minister of Co-op Development. We didn't get the annual report until 2 o'clock of the afternoon of the day that we were to deal with those Estimates. I'd like to ask the Minister today, when this announcement was made, because I think it was made some time ago, and we In the opposition could have had an opportunity to examine it during the spending Estimates of the Minister of Co-op Development to find out what kind of money Is involved in the deal, Mr.

Speaker. Mr. Speaker, we welcome the announcement and it's too bad that we couldn't have had a chance to deal with the details of it during the examination of the Minister of Co-op Development's Estimates. Thank you. MR. SPEAKER: Notices of Motion . . . Introduction of Bills .. . INTRODUCTION OF GUESTS MR. SPEAKER: Prior to Oral Questions, may I direct the attention of honourable members to the gallery where we have 24 students of Grade 11 standing from the Princess Elizabeth High School under the direction of Mr. Balkwill. The school Is In the constituency of the Honourable Member for Minnedosa.

There are 60 students of Grade 5 standing from the Southwood Elementary School in Stelnbach. They are under the direction of Miss Paschke. The school is In the constituency of the Honourable Member for La Verendrye. On behalf of all of the members, I welcome you here this afternoon. 2099

Tuftct.y , 21 May, 1885 ORAL QUESTIONS Vicon -coat to taxpayers MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, I direct a question to the Minister of Industry, Trade and Technology. lt flows from the statement that he just made In the House. Mr. Speaker, I'm sure the taxpayers of Manitoba will be interested to know just how many of their dollars were involved for the Min ister to make that statement that he just made, through the Jobs Fund, as I understand it. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

The amount of the assistance that the Province of Manitoba Is prov idin g through the development agreement is a loan of $400,000 to Vicon for the establishment of their plant. That loan will turn into a forgivable loan if they meet their employment targets during the next few years. If it isn't, the loan is repayable with full and retroactive interest. There is a further provision of a $600,000 forgivable loan based on additional expenditures in the area of research and development by the company into new product lines.

That loan Is contingent on matching by the Federal Government and Is also contingent on the company meeting employment targets. If they do meet employment targets, then that loan will also be forgiven based on their meeting the employment targets and the emplo yment creation here in the Province of Manitoba. If they don't, then the loans will be repaid with accumulated and retroactive interest. I might add, Mr.

Speaker, that the Province of Manitoba would rather we would not be in a situation as we are in this country, where various jurisdictions within Canada, various provinces compete with each other on these kinds of agreements, in fact, it's not only a Canadian situation or an in-Canada situation but one with respect to other parts of North America, states in the United States are very aggressive In their marketing efforts for new industries and provide a range of assistance.

In fact, in this case, I know that the Province of Saskatchewan made a very substantial offer to Vicon to locate in the Province of Saskatchewan. We have raised that; at the First Mini sters' Conference, the Premier of this province raised the issue of interprovincial competition. I have raised it at meet ings of Economic and Regional Development Min isters, suggesting that this kind of competition should not continue in the province. However, if other provinces are doing this, Mr.

Speaker, it would be foolhardy for us in the Province of Manitoba to be uncompetitive vis-a-vis other provinces, and not to look at providing jobs for Manltobans and for young people in our province. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Lakeside. MR. H. ENNS: Mr. Speaker, min isterial statements are made to provide the House and the people of Manitoba with information.

We note with interest that the single most important piece of information was singularly absent from this statement, the fact that Manitoba taxpayers are being asked to provide up to a million dollars, in this instance - all the more so when a simple modification of the labour law could have prevented that. My question to the Mini ster is, will the financial arrangements of the million-dollar exposure that taxpayers have in the retention of these jobs be tabled in this House? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mini ster of Culture. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I regret that that particular information was not contained in the statement. I did provide it on question from the member. Notwithstanding that, I have indicated the arrangements, the terms that are part of that agreement, so if there is other information that the member requires, I'd be pleased to provide him with that. He made some reference to labour laws. I recall that the Member for St.

Norbert indicated that that company was going to move out of the Province of Manitoba because - the story in the Free Press said "Labour laws force factory to move." The truth of the matter is that they were able to come to a conclusion with their union with respect to labour law.

With respect to other provinces, unfortunately we are in this kind of competitive environment In this count ry, and the best Manitoba can do is to ensure that these kinds of inc entives that ensur e that Man itoba is competitive to other provinces are done in a way that ensures that there are employment targets, that there is job creation, that there are areas like affirmative action contained in those things so that they are of benefit to Manitobans in terms of jobs for people here in the Province of Manitoba.

As I said, we have raised it at the national level that we should look at this kind of competition that goes on between provinces and try to bring an end to it, Mr. Speaker, so that it would be a benefit for all Canadians. Livestock backup- U.S. tariffs MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have a question for the First Minister.

In view of the fact that we have a major backup of livestock due to the Imposition of unfair tariff barriers in some states in the United States, In view of the fact that he has reversed his position on free trade, what has he done to support Manitoba livestock producers to re-enter the markets in the United States that have been closed to us? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable First Min ister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker , in fact, if the honourable member was referring to the statement that was issued in Kelowna and the statement from Grande Prairie, he would realize his statement in regard to reversal of position Is incorrect. Mr. Speaker, insofar as the question of the livestock backup is concerned, we have not yet heard from the Federal Minister responsible for External Affairs and 2100

TuHday, 21 May, 1985 Trade, Mr. Clark, who apparently had some meetings with his counterpart In Washington over the weekend. This is a matter in which the Federal Government is required, by way of its responsibility, to take a clear and strong position in regard to the utilization of non tariff barriers, to the imposition of livestock into the United States. I trust that Mr. Clark was able to ensure that he be heard in his discussions with Mr. Schultz over the weekend.

Insofar as the province is concerned, we again urge the Federal Government to utilize its offices as the party responsible for dealing with matters such as this, to take a firm position. Also, Mr. Speaker, I accepted the invitation from the Honourable Member for Lakeside on Friday to pursue this matter to the extent possible at the provincial level. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I would ask the First Minister, what has he done to communicate to the authorities in the United States, the Governor of the State of South Dakota, who has imposed one of the restrictions, what has he done? lt doesn't bother him, Mr.

Speaker, to mess around in Garrison and in nuclear resolutions, but what has this First Minister done? What communication has he, as the First Minister of this province, put forward to the Governor of the State of South Dakota on behalf of the producers of livestock in this province? What has he communicated to those individuals? MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Min ister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. The Honourable Member for Arthur wishes now that a Provincial Government subsume the responsibilities of its national government.

That's basically what the Honourable Member for Arthur is suggest ing. Mr. Speaker, it's clear ... MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable Minister of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: The honourable member should be aware that this matter was raised by our staff and by ourselves when we were in Grande Prairie at the beginning of this week with federal officials. In fact, the federal officials of the Department of Agriculture were not aware that there was an embargo placed on Canadian hogs at the time that we raised this matter in Ottawa, and as a result, they started looking into the situation.

We've raised this concern nationally and that is precisely where this problem should be handled. If the member is suggesting that we now circumvent the national authority in this country and then be accused of meddling in international affairs on behalf of a province, Mr. Speaker, I certainly am not prepared to do that.

But as the Premier suggested, he has offered, by the Western Premiers, to meet with the Governors of those states to discuss this matter at the governmental level, which would be an appropriate way, but really the forum for this is through our Department of External Affairs and the Department of Agriculture in Ottawa, who should be living up to the responsiblity and dealing with this problem forthrightly. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, my question is for the First Minister. Mr.

Speaker, the Leader of the Opposition forwarded a telex on behalf of the livestock producers last week to the Federal Government. The question is, what has this First Minister communicated and would he table any documents that he has to the Federal Government or the appropriate authorities In the United States, on behalf of the livestock producers, Mr. Speaker, who are losing thousands of dollars under this administration? SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I regret very much that a matter that is so pertinent and important to all Manitobans such as the Im position of non-tariff restrictions along the U.S.-Canadian bound ary, should be used by this member, Mr. Speaker, as an opportunity for political opportunism and for backbiting, insofar as the efforts to ensure that there is a resolution of this issue in the United States. Mr. Speaker, I look to the Minister responsible for External Affairs in Ottawa to assume that responslblity that is committed to that Minister by way of law. Mr.

Speaker, that Minister met with his federal counterpart over the weekend, Mr. Speaker, we will find out and the Honoorabie Member for Arthur will find out whether or not the Federal Minister responsible for trade was successful or not within a very short period of time. And then, Mr. Speaker, we'll be able to ascertain what action is required on the part of the Provincial Government to again firmly urge the Federal Government to ensure that maximum pressure is brought to bear upon those responsible in the United States. Mr.

Speaker, this is not the time for the honourable member to be grands tandlng. lt is a time him to be ensuring that the Federal Minister that is responsible lives up to his responsibilities. MR. J. DOWNEY: Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the First Minister. Why has he, as First Minister of the Province of Man itoba, not commun icated to the Department of External Affairs and the Federal Government, the wishes of the Province of Manitoba on behalf of the livestock producers of this province? Why has he not communicated dir ectly to him as the Premier of the province? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, again, the honourable member is not listening. I would ask the Minister of Agric ulture to detail for the Honourable of Arthur who has not listened to the very clear undertakings by this governement to ensure that the Federal Minis ter understands the responsibility for his portfolio in this regard. MR. SPEAKER: The Hono urable Mini ster of Agriculture. HON. B. URUSKI: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member should be aware as I ind icated in my previous reply and I'll repeat it for him. 2101

Tueeday, 21 May, 1115 Our staff, the Department of Agriculture staff, were in Ottawa on Monday and raised this matter after they had spoken with me. - (Interjection) - Mr. Speaker, just let the honourable member wait for the reply before he opens his mouth, he might learn something. The staff raised this with the Federal Department of Agriculture, who were not aware of this situation as yet. On Tuesday morning, Mr. Speaker, the Minister from Alberta and myself, were in direct communication with the Ottawa people with respect to this matter with the External Affairs office of the Federal Government. Mr.

Speaker, as a follow-up to that, this discussion was held. The Premiers of the four western provinces discussed this matter in context as well, Mr. Speaker, which should be pointed out with what the Federal Government has done with respect to beef imports Into this country. The four western Premiers were very concerned that western Interests are being sold out by our national government, by allowing additional imports of European beef into this country in exchange for to bacco, for blueberries and for maple syrup primarily as being imports.

If the honourable member doesn't regard that as a major trade-off In terms of our western interests, I don't know what Is, Mr. Speaker. We have raised this matter and, in fact, we followed up with a further telex when we came back from our conference in Alberta to the Federal Government. So, Mr. Speaker, we have been in communication with the federal Ministers, with the hog board, with producers in an attempt to have the United States Government force those three American states to live up to their legal obligations and withdraw the ban that they've put In place. Provin cial parks - imposition of liquor ban MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Emerson. MR. A. DRIEDGER: Mr. Speaker , my question is to the Minister of Natural Resources. In view of the disruptive activities in some of our provincial parks during the weekend, is the Mini ster contemplating imposing liquor bans in some of our provincial parks? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mi nister of Natural Resources. HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, my understanding is that those occurrences were in national parks rather than provincial ones. Therefore, I really have no comment. Provincial parks - patrolling of MR. A. DRIEDGER: To the same Minister, Mr. Speaker.

The Conservative Government initiated a park patrol program some years ago and it has been sadly deleted under this administration. Would the Minister consider updating that park patrol program that was initia ted so that the provincial parks would be safe for all Manitobans? HON. S. USKIW: Mr. Speaker, I'm not aware of any changes with respect to enforcement policy in provincial parks or campgrounds. There probably needs to be an enhancement of the effort but I don't think there has been any reduction. Provincial election - calling of MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Speaker, I'd like to direct a question to the First Minister. In view of the fact that today is the last possible date for the calling of a June election SOME HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh! MA. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, I've been fortunate in getting my last pamphlet out under the wire. I'd like to know whether the First Mini ster will demonstrate some courage and give the people of Manitoba an opportunity to pass judgment on his government? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker , the honour able member will certainly have to wait for a few hours, but I would suggest to the honourable member that it's important at this point insofar as continuing our programs to ensure that there be good government continued in the Province of Manitoba, that we complete our Session. The honourable member no doubt will have his opportunity probably sooner than later. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Speaker, is the Premier now ind icating that Manitobans will not have to wait until his term runs out In 1986? Forest fire - Porcupine Mount a ins MA. SPEAKER: Oral Questions. The Honourable Member for Swan River.

MA. D. GOURLAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct my question to the Mini ster of Natural Resources. In view of the fact that a forest fire has occurred in the Porcupine Mountains, I wonder if the Minister can bring us up to date In the House today as to the seriousness of this fire and whether it's under control. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Natural Resources. HON. S. USKIW: Well, Mr. Speaker, I'm not sure If it is indeed a very serious fire in the sense that I have not been advised of it.

I would assume that If it's something of standard proportions that doesn't require any additional initiative, I. would have been so advised, so I presume it's in hand. Mailing list, NDP • recipients of Jobs Fund fund ing MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. 21(l� 2102

TUeeday, 21 May, 1985 MA. D. GOUALAY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct a new question then to the Premier and ask the Premier if he can advise the House If all those Manitoba businesses and non-profit groups which have received funding under the Jobs Fund are now on the mailing list of the New Democratic Party for financial contributions to the party. MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: No, Mr. Speaker. No. MA. D. GOUALAY: Mr.

Speaker, I di rect a further question to the Premier and ask how come the Swan River Curling Club has received a letter dated May 6th requesting funds for the business canvass of the New Democratic Party? MA. SPEAKER: Order please. Questions should be on matters which are within the administrative competence of the government. The Honourable Member for Swan River. MA. D. GOUALAY: In view of the fact that the Swan River Curling Club just recently received a Jobs Fund grant, I wonder if the Premier could advise the House as to why they would receive a letter from the NDP requesting funds at this time. MA.

SPEAKER: Order please. That question also deals with a matter which is not within the administrative competence of the government. The Honourable Member for Swan River. MA. D. GOUALAY: I'd ask the Premier if his government gave the address to the NDP so that they could request this contribution from the Swan River Curling Club? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I suspect that the New Democratic Party is as non-discriminatory, insofar as their fund raising as the Conservative Party of Canada Is, because only two weeks ago I received a self sustaining Progressive Conservative membership card through the mail, so I assume that we are no better at discriminating than Is the Conservative Party of Manitoba. Manfor - tabling of Annual Report MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Swan River. MA. D. GOUALAY: Mr.

Speaker, I dir ect a question to the Minister responsible for Manfor, and ask when he will be able to table the Annual Report of Manitoba Forest Resources, which has been due since September 30th, which is some eight months ago since their year end? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Business Development. HON. J. STO AIE: Yes, Mr. Speaker, I Indicated some time ago that the annual report is on its way and the printing - (I nterje ction) - Mr. Speaker, if the honourable member would like an advance copy, I can give him a copy of it.

I would prefer to wait and table the completed report in Its final form, but if the member is concerned about having one before Manfor comes before a standing committee, I'm certainly willing to provide him with a copy. Sherman Report - implementation of MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for lnkster. MA. D. SCOTT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Mr. Speaker, I have a question for the Minister of Health. Last week at the Health Ministers' Conference, they received a report by Bud Sherman on the privatizing of the administration of hospitals in Canada.

Does the Minister of Health in Manitoba have any plans to Implement any of the suggestions of that report in regard to the privatizing of the administration of our public hospitals? MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Health. HON. L. DESJA ADINS: Mr. Speaker, it was on Friday morning, I think, that the Sherman Report was released publicly, without any recommendation from any level of government. We certainly will look at it, but as of this time there's no intention of putting any of these suggestions into law or accepting any of them.

I think our policy on health services is very clear and as much as possible we feel that this should be taken up by the public sector and not the private sector. The Winnipeg Construction Wages Act - changes to MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MA. A. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I direct my question to the Minister of Labour and would ask him, since many small contractors In Winnipeg are now indicating that the present constructi.on rate for unskilled and casual workers - the students and youth of this province -is really hindering job creation rather than helping it; in other words, companies are being forced to pay $1 3.45 an hour for unskilled and student labour, Is the Minister conte mplating any changes to The Winni peg Construction Wages Act, which would allow smaller construction companies to hire students at rates which they can afford and which are more competitive with what everybody else is paying?

MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKLING: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member is probably referring to a news item that appeared recently in the press, because the Greater Winnipeg Building Construction Wage Board has been, as it has in the past, holding hearings to hear views In respect to construction wages. They're doing that and they'll be submitting their recommendations to me and thence government, and 2103

Tuesday, 21 May, 1985 I'll be interested in their observations. They're certainly hearing some significant statements by people in respect to that whole issue and I'll look forward to hearing their recommendations. Careerstart Program - construction industry wages MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for La Verendrye. MA. A. BANMAN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I direct a question to the Min ister in charge of Careerstart.

I wonder if the Minister could inform the House whether or not the Careerstart approvals to people within the Winnipeg small construction industry are predicated on the premise that the small contractors will have to pay the $1 "3.45 an hour before they can qualify for any grants under the Careerstart Program. MA. SPEAKER: The Hon ourable Min ister of Employment Services. HON. L EVANS: Mr. Speaker, any employer in the Province of Manitoba has to abide by the various laws and regulations that are in place. MA. A.

BANMAN: Since the Minister of Labour now recognizes that the $1 3. 45 an hour for small businessmen and for paying that type of money for unskill ed or youth employment is really hurting job creation in this province, and since the Winnipeg small construction contractors have indicated that this is the case, when does he expect the com mittee to report to him with regard to changes to this act? MA. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Labour. HON. A. MACKUNG: Yes, Mr. Speaker, let me first correct the record.

The honourable member indicates that I recognize a significant problem in the extent of the wage being paid. I did not at all. I Indicated that this Greater Winnipeg Building Construction Wages Board was hearing representations and I'll be pleased to receive their recommendations and deal with the report. Certainly, I don't think anyone would accuse people of making $1 3.45 an hour as being excessively paid, and if that's the kind of message the honourable member is· suggesting, I think that's an error. 1 think, Mr.

Speaker, we'll be interested to see what recommendations they make because there may well be some recommendations that we would want to look at, but I can't prejudge what recommendations they're going to make. MA. R. BANMAN: Mr. Speaker, since a 16- or 17-year old student, unskilled, is now being - not because of his or her wants or needs - forced by the law to be paid $1 3.45 an hour, which we all know is a very high wage for an unskilled student, when does the Min ister expect the report so that some action can be taken on this problem, which is really taking jobs away from students in this province? HON. A.

MA CKLING: Mr. Speaker, I have to become somewhat annoyed. The honourable member knows that not only in the lifetime of this government, but in the previous government the same board existed, composed of both business and labour and the recommendations that are extant today were a result of recommendations made by that board to this government and the previous government before it. Now to suggest that there's something wrong in the system and immediately there must be change is to really play loose with the facts. Mr.

Speaker , that board is charged with the respons ibi lity of looking at the syste m, making recommendations, and we will look at the recommendations. I don't know the timing of those recommendations, but we will deal with them. Workers Compensation Board - administrative cost increase MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would direct my question to the First Minis ter.

Does the First Minister approve of the 150 percent inc rease in admini strative costs of the Workers Compensation Board since 1981, the three-and-a-half years of the New Democratic Party Government? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable member is seeking an opinion. Would he frame his question to seek information? The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: To the First Min ister also. Does the First Minister approve of the 150 percent administration cost increase of the Workers Compensation Board since 1981? MR. SPEA KER: Order ple ase. That is the same question. The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR.

A. KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker, may I just change the word "approve" to "support." Mr. Speaker, can the First Min ister advise whether he supports the 150 percent increase in administrative costs since 1981 of the Workers Compensation Board? MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The honourable member is still asking for an opin ion. Would he ask for information? The Honourable Member for Lakeside on a point of order. MR. H. ENNS: Mr.

Speaker, we have just dealt with the Estimates, the affairs of the Workers Compensation Board, and it was during those Estimates that the somewhat surprising information was elicited from the staff ... MR. SPEAKER: What is the point of order? MR. H. ENNS: . . . and the responsible Minister, that indeed a 150 percent increase in administration costs had occurred. Mr. Speaker , I think it's perfectly 2104

legitimate for the Member for Niakwa to ask whether or not that kind of increase met with the approval of the First Minister. MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. Order please. That is not a point of order. The honourable member was seeking an opinion. If he wishes to seek information, he should so frame his question. The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: To the First Minister . How much have the administrative costs . MR. SPEAKER: Order please. MR. A. KOVNATS: . . . of the Workers Compensation Board been increased since 19 81, the three-and-a-half years of the New Democratic Party Government? MR.

SPEAKER: The Honourable First Minister. HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr. Speaker, the honourable member threw out a figure that would have to be confirmed. But, Mr. Speaker, I want to say this, that I disappr ove of the low level of service that was provided to injured workers during the period 1977-1981 by the Workers Compensation Board. Mr. Speaker, I approve wholeheartedly and without any apology, the fact that we have provided for improved service to injured workers, injured in their places of work.

Surely an obligation of our community is to ensure that injured workers are properly protected and properly compensated under those types of circumstances. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. To the First Minister. We weren't talking about the injured workers, we were talking about the administrative costs of the Workers Compensation Board. I would also di rect this question to the First Minister. Will the First Minister approve of the Chairman of the Review Committee of The Workers' Compensation Act being chosen from indu stry and labour? MR.

SPEAKER: Order please. I think the honourable member is still seeking an opinion. Would he wish to rephrase his question to seek information? The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: To the First Minister. How will the Chairman of the Review Committee of The Workers' Compensation Act be chosen? Will it be from industry and will it be from labour, the chairman? HON. H. PAWLEY: Mr.

Speaker, I'm somewhat surprised, if we've just gone through Estimates of the Workers Compensation Board and if the honourable member is now indicating he forgot to ask that question, maybe it would be better if the honourable member, having now thought of that question, asked the Minister responsible for the Workers Compensation Board for his response to that question. lt would seem to me to be much more in order, Mr. Speaker. MR. SPEAKER: The Honou rable Mi nister for the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Seeing the member asked the same questions of me last week and I provided the answers in detail and at length, Mr. Speaker, I would have to imagine that he could not unde rstand. I suggest that he read the reply in Hansard. MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Niakwa. MR. A. KOVNATS: Mr. Speaker, on a point of order.

The reason that the question was asked of the First Mi nister is that we had a different Mini ster of Environment, Work place Safety and Health for the first two years of the administration and we had a new Minister for the last one-and-a-half years; and that's why I pose the question to the First Minister. If the First Minister does not care to answer the question, that's his prerogative. MR. SPEAKER: That was not a point of order. Winnipeg Child Protection Centre - lack of staff MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Mem ber for Rhineland. MR. A. BROWN: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

My question is to the Minister of Community Services. However, before I ask the question, I would just like to express my thanks and appreciation for the many flowers, cards and get-well wishes that were sent during my recent stay in hospital by members from both sides and members of the press. I really appreciated them and I must say that I'm sure they helped me on my way to recovery . I am recuperating satisfactori ly, although I'll be spending short days in the Legislature for another few weeks or so.

My question to the Minister of Community Services is this: can the Minister confirm that many sexually abused children cannot receive the care required because of lack of staff and lack of di rection and lack of funding at the Winnipeg Child Protection Centre? MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Minister of Community Services. HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, before answering the question, I would like to specifically welcome the member back.

I think he could tell by the spontaneity and volume of the applause that we are all most happy that he's making a recovery and look forward to many peaceful interchanges in the weeks ahead. With regard to the specific question on child abuse, I've said on many occasions that there is no way by just building up the financial suppor1 at the Health Sciences Centre that we are going to be able to deal with the community-wide issue of child abuse. We must integrate the capacity to deal with the children and their families throughout the child and family support system.

The Child Protection Centre at the hospital has been in the front line and has, of necessity, been dealing 2105

TuesdaJ, 21 MaJ, 1985 particularly with the emergency and the medical aspects of the problem; but the linkages with the total child and family service, the training of people, the reassignment which we have made in the past months from that system to support the services are In place. Mr. Speaker, it's going to take a while till we get all the components of the system fully co-ordinated, but I think that is the direction we must go in dealing with this problem which really is a very severe social problem and which calls for the co-operation of many groups In the community to deal with it. MR. A.

BROWN: My question is to the same Minister. Mr. Speaker, I must say that I appreciate the problem that the Minister is facing in this new program that was started awhile back, and I know that there have been very many more cases r.eported than was anticipated. However, it has been brought to my attention that because of the lack of follow-up being done In these cases, in some instances the situation Is aggravated rather than helped. lt would be my sincere hope, Mr. Speaker, that the Minister would pay top priority to this situation so that we can help rather than aggravate this situation as it is now. HON. M.

SMITH: Mr. Speaker, I would like to just expand on the fact that . . . MR. SPEAKER: Order please, order please. I heard a statement, I did not hear a que stion from the honourable member. MR. A. BROWN: The question is this, Mr. Speaker: will the Minister spend more priority in the area of child abuse than she is spending at the present time in order for us to resolve some of these problem areas? HON. M. SMITH: Mr. Speaker, it really amuses but really more disturbs me that, whenever a problem comes up in this House the advice we get on this side of the House is to spend more money.

Then on the following day, we are told that we're spending too much and we should cut back. That aside, in this particular area, it's tempting to feel that spending more money alone will solve the problem, but one of the difficulties has been that there are not many trained people in the community who have Insight and have the skills to deal with the problem. So it's the training and development of a system-wide ability to deal with the issue that we are giving high attention to.

We have hired a person with specific responsibility for co-ordinating a program in child abuse; we have re-allocated staff from the Winnipeg area Child and Family Services to work specifically on the problem. Again, I'd be more than happy to deal with any particular problems that the member has identified to see whether, In fact, the system isn't working as has been recommended or whether there is a shortage in that particular area. Chemical spill, Carman, Ma nitoba - report of RCMP MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Member for Arthur. MR. J. DOWNEY: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I have a question for the Minister of Environment. This winter there was a chemical spill at Carman and the RCMP have recently concluded a study. Will the Minister be tabling that report in the Legislature? MR. SPEA KER: The Ho nour able Minister of the Environment. HON. G. LECUYER: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I haven't yet had an opportunity to see that report. lt is presently In the hands of staff and the Attorney General's Department. I will make comment when I have seen that report. MR. J. DOWNEY: Well, Mr. Speaker, I asked the Minister, will he be tabling the report when he gets it? HON. G.

LECUYER: I repeat, Mr. Speaker, I haven't seen the report, so it's difficult for me to say that I will table a report that I haven't yet seen. At this point In time, I see no reason why I wouldn't want to do so but, as I say, I will only make that commitment definitely once I have seen it. MR. SPEAKER: Order please. The time for Oral Questions has expired. The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you Mr. Speaker. I would ask for leave of the House to return to Ministerial Statements and Tabling of Reports under Routine Proceedings. MR.

SPEAKER: Does the Honourable Minister have leave? (Agreed) MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS AND TABLING OF REPORTS RETURN TO ORDER NO. 4 MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I'd like to table Return to Order of the House No. 4, dated June 12 , 1984, on motion of the Honourable Member for St. Norbert. ORDERS OF THE DAY MR. SPEAKER: The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Mr. Speaker, I believe there may be a predisposition to dispense with Private Members' Hour for purposes of Committee of Supply.

If I have leave to do so, I would then move the Supply motion on that understanding. MR. SPEAKER: Is there leave to dispense with Private Members' Hour today? (Agreed) The Honourable Government House Leader. HON. A. ANSTETT: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. 2106

Tuesday, 21 May, 1985 I wish to advise the House that we will be commencing the consideration of the Estimates of the Department of Agriculture here in the

section sitting in the Chamber, and the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation in the

section sitting in Room 255. I would move, seconded by the Honour able Minister of Agriculture, that Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair and the House resolve Itself into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to Her Majesty. MOTION presented and carried and the Hous e resolved itself Into a Committee to consider of the Supply to be granted to He r Majesty with the Hono urable Member for River East in the Chair for the Department of Agriculture; and the Honourable Member for Burrows in the Chair for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. CONCURRENT COMMIT TEES OF SUPPLY SUPPLY - CULTURE, HERITAGE AND RECRE ATION MR. CHAIRMAN, C. Santoa: This

section of the Committee of Supply shall be dealing with the Estimates of the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation. We shall begin with a statement from the Mini ster responsible for the department. The Honourable Mini ster. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I welcome this opportunity to present my department's Estimates and to review the events and achievements of the past year on which these are based. This administration, Mr. Chairman, is committed to ensuring that all Manitobans have the opportunity to participate in culture, heritage and recreation activities.

Because of the variety of Manitoba's culture, these activities must reflect the diversity of needs and interests throughout the province. As indicated in the Throne Speech, this year's major initiative is the drawing up of new Heritage legislation, one that strengthens the Identification and preservation of our heritage and history. My department has also Introduced Improved support programs for Manito ba's community museums so that their collections may be better preserved and interpreted for present and future generations. You will recall, Mr.

Chairman, that during the last Session, amendments were app roved to The Museum and Miscellaneous Grants Act which had not been updated since its enactment in 1970. The fundamental goal of heritage preservation is for everyone to have a better understanding of their past and of their identity. Our heritage and history do not simply belong to a few; they belong to all of us. Mr. Chairman, 1985 marks the Centennial of Louis Aiel's death, an event of special significance to Franco Manitobans and Manitobans of Metis origin. "Le Comite du Centenalre Louis Riel 19 85" through L'Unlon Natlonale Metlsse St.

Joseph and the Manitoba Metis Federation will be involved in organizing and co ordinating activities to commemorate the Centennial. The comite will serve as a promotions and publication body for the Francophone commun ity, encouraging Comites Culturels and others to plan activities, co ordinating conferences, publications and festivals. The Manitoba Metis Federation will also be involved in exhibitions and similar cultural and educational events in order to permit maximum participation from all Manitobans.

This will provide us with the opportunity to reacquaint ourselves with the events surrounding the formation of the province and the role of Louis Riel as a founding father. Our heritage, our cultural past, is also reflected In aspects of our lives such as our diverse religions and philosophies, our languages and the family traditions that shape our perceptions, attitudes and values. Mr. Chairman, it is a priority of this administration to assist ethnocultural groups that are actively striving to preserve, develop and share their cultural identity with other Manitobans.

Manitoba took a unique step In the formation of the Manitoba lntercultural Council, the majority of whose members are elected by the ethnocultural community rather than appointed by government as they are in other provinces. The council is truly representative of that commu nity and forms a part nership with government In developing Initiatives to strengthen the position of ethnocultural groups. The council, now in Its second year of operation, has met twice this year with Cabinet to discuss issues of mutual concern.

Recommendations on matters ranging from human rights, education, media communications, cultur e, heritage and imm igration settlement have been implemented to ensure that full participation In the political, social and economic life of our province can be realized. My department's Estimates provide for continued assistance to the council's'85-86 operations and the Ethnocultural Heritage Support programs. Recommendations made by the Council on Multicultural Grants and Linguistic Support have been accepted, with some slight changes and, as such, more closely reflect the needs of the community.

The council is looking again at the departme nt's Ethnocultur al Heritage Support Programs to establish the best ways and means of meeting a demand that now exceeds the supply. lt is interesting to note, Mr. Chairman, that a study commissioned by the Manitoba lntercultural Council on "The Portrayal of Visible Minor ities In TV Programming Originating from Manito ba, Other Canadian and United States Sources" reveals that Manitoba programming is more representative of visible minorities than national Canadian programlng which, in turn, ranks higher than American programming.

A number of Initiatives are planned in'85-86, reflecting thi s administration's commitment to work with communities in achievi ng common goals. A multicultural anthology search has been launched In co-operation with the Department of Education and the Secretary of State's Office. This project, designed to use the work of Manitoba writers in the province, will also add significantly to the multlcultural resource materials available to schools.

A major accomplishment, following three years of negotiations and consultations, Is the organization of the Federal/Provincial Conference of Mi nisters on Multiculturalism hosted In Winnipeg, between last May 13 and 15 , 1985. This administration, Mr. Chairman, 2107

Tuesday, 21 May, 1985 wants to address without delay the true reality that confronts Canada toda y. We are a multilingual, multicultural and multiracial people; in turn, society and government must reflect this reality In their policies, programs and personnel. The Manitoba lntercultural Council has recommended topics for the conference calling for the definition of multiculturalism, and proposing the adoption of a multicultural act; in addition other areas of concern to the ethnocultu ral community regarding human rights, racism, and visible minorities portrayal have been included on the agenda.

As indicated in the Throne Speech, this administration will be introducing amending legislation that will allow the Manitoba Film Classification Board to license the distribution of home-use videotapes and to classity all such tapes prior to their sale, rental or distribution to the general public for home viewing. This measure will provide an important ·form of consumer information, which will enable Manitobans to assess the suitability of tapes for home viewing and will restrict access of underaged consumers on the same basis as theatre exhibition.

The Manitoba Film Classification Board will be taking all the necessary steps to ensure that the public and the industry are well aware and informed of new classification categories and that Manitobans are sensitized to their rights as consumers. My department's Estimates provide for increased support to the board's operations in view of this new service, one that will require time to prepare and deliver. In the environment of government cuts to culture, Mr. Chairman, support to Manitoba major cultural and heritage institutions has been maintained.

Continued operating support to the Centre Cu ltural Franco Manitobain, the Centennial Centre Corporation, the Museum of Man and Nature, the Ukrainian Cultural and Education Centre, the Brandon Centennial Auditorium and the Winnipeg Art Gallery underline this administration's commitment to culture and heritage initiatives in Manitoba. The Manitoba Arts Council will continue to emphasize in 1985-86 assistance to small arts groups and arts service organizations, which foster the development of creative artists through organizational structures.

Grants to individual artists will be maintained focusing more specifically on choreography and film-making; as well, managerial and administrative development for arts groups will continue to be an ongoing priority for the Arts Council. Two programs implemented last year: the Access Program, tailored to fulfill affirmative action policies and the Art Venture Program which assists inn ovative arts projects will receive more funding in 1985-86 to meet an inc reasing demand. In this province we believe in the economic value of stimulating the cultural industry and its subsequent impact on our collective well-being.

The creative arts are the generative force of the arts industry and they are something vital, necessary and mainstream. This administration is committed to cultural support, because it believes that education and the arts are the keys to the growth of Manitoba and Canada. Human creativity must be available to help us meet the challenge of planning our future. Culture is a learning experience and not simply a static circumstance or a purported national symbol.

My department is presently developing culture and heritage awards, an annual celebration which would recognize the outstanding achievements and significant contributions of individuals and organizations in the artistic field. An extensive review is under way and we antici pate announcement in the near future detailing a formal program of recognition in artistic excellence. Manitoba Cultur e, Heritage and Recreat ion is exploring, at this time, participation in the creation of an automated union catalogue of Manitoba's public libraries.

New equipment and a contract with the University of Toronto would enable rural li braries to use automation at the local level, maximizing their use of staff, and the timeliness of their service to the community. We are actively seeking ways to enhanc e individual and collective access to information resources in the most efficient way, and reduce the gap between library services available to Winnipeg residents and those living in rural and remote areas. Providing automation of cataloguing services is a step towards fulfilling that objective.

This year again, my department is providing capital grants to rural libraries, assisting them to improve their facilities. These grants have permitted rural libraries to avoid shutdowns and remain in operation without crippling maintenance costs. Libraries play a valuable role in the education and development, as well in the sheer enjoyment of people in the community. This administration wants to deliver services that Manitobans can equally benefit from. Mr.

Chairman, we all recognize the val uable contribution of volunt eer organ izations and the impo rtant role they play in enriching the lifestyle of Manitobans. This administration values the support of these and other endeavours with consultative services, leadership training opportunities for full-time volunteers and incenti ve grants. Programs of community activities are essential elements of life if people are to keep their sense of purpose and achieve happiness in a complex socie ty. Volunteer s are the focal point for the development and un derstanding of recreat ion, particularly at the local level.

That is why, Mr. Chairman, my department has provided for increased activities in the area of volunteer board development. We will raise the competency level of volunteer boards that relate to the department by providing courses to train people in workshops for volunteer boards, and providing support resource materials to be used by the trainers and the volunteer boards. Cultural and leisure research for seniors is another area my department is involved in, an initiative that embraces our commitment to create an environment conducive to well-being for all Manitob ans.

To become better prepared for those who will be our seniors, we are presently researching the needs and Interests of Manitobans age 65 and over. This project will help specialists in the field direct their programs in ways that better suit the needs of our present and future senior citizens. In Jan uary, Mr. Chairman, the Communi cations Services Division was formed.

By placing the Queen's Printer, Advertising Audit, Translation Services, and Information Services in a single administrative division, my department Intends to bring about greater cost efficiencies in commu nication services and support to departments, agencies and Crown corporations. Attention is now being given to streamlining procedures for tendering and producing materials and for more 210A 2108

Tuesday. 21 ... ,. 1985 effective coordination of our public in formation programs. Embracing the spirit of International Youth Year, branches within my department are developing activities with a youth focus. They range from recreation coordinator, play leadership, youth leadership training, to northern summer recreation activities and summer reading programs. Amongst our major init iatives, is the Northern Water Safety Program, which has offered swim instruction and water safety to residents of remote communiti es for a number of years.

This program is well received and its popularity is growing, no less due to the cooperation and support from the communi ty. lt will focus this year on a Northern Native Leader ship Program, promoting education as well as skill development. We want to train youth from northern commun ities to become qualified and in turn instruct the Northern Water Safety Program. Indeed, although approximately 7 percent of Manitoba's population lives north of the 53rd, over 36 percent of the drownings occur there. Other initiatives are being developed and further annou ncements are planned in future weeks. In closing, Mr.

Chairman, I wish to acknowledge the many individuals throughout Manitoba who direct their efforts and channel their creativity into the development of culture, heritage and recreation in our province. No matter what the eco nomic circumstances, these activities continue to flourish because of the interest and cooperative efforts at the local level, a contribution that no doubt enriches all of our lives. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Mr. Minis ter. As is customary, we shall now hear the reply from the main opposition critic, the Honou rable Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, I have no statement to make; we'll just move right into the Estimates. MR. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. At this point in time, we cordially invite members of the departmental staff to kindly take their respective places. Mr. Min ister. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I have some supplemen tary information which I'd like to provide members of the comm ittee. One is an organizational chart and explanatory notes to that chart; the second set of documents is detailed grant listings for the fiscal year ending 1984 which are available for all grants that have been processed by the department.

I'll have those circulated to the members, Mr. Chairman. MR. CH AIRMAN: Thank you. Deferring the consideration of the Minister's Salary, which is Item No. 1(a), the committee shall begin Its deliberation with Item No. 1(b)( 1) Adminis tration and Finance, Executive Support: Salaries; 1(b)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, there's little or no change in the Executive Support. I would just ask, with the size of this department, how many legislative assistants and executive assistants does the Minister or his deputy have within this department? HON. E. KOSTYRA: This area, there is a total of nine staff. I'll just maybe run through them for the member's information. There are three in the Minister's office: One is a political assis tant, a special assistant, that's one position; two administrative secretaries.

In the Deputy Min ister's office, there are four positions: Deputy Min ister, an administrative officer, an administrative secretary and receptionist and there's an executive director's office, an executive director, and administrative secretary to the director. There's one so-called political assistant here. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (b)(1) -p ass; 1. (b)(2)-pa ss. 1. (c)

(1) Research and Planning: Salaries; 1. (c)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, the Research and Planning, I believe we discussed this last year. I'm just wanting to ask if there's any real change, the Research and Planning. The Minister's statement discusses a lot of programs that are being admin istered by this department. Is this the department that does the research and the recommendations to the Minister regarding the programs that are handled by this column or this line? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: lt's a research and planning unit for the whole department and its role is research and development of new policy, review of programming for policy compliance, and development and maintenance of strategic planning framework for the department. There hasn't been any change in staffing or other items - there is a slight reduction in salary. That's because of a vacant position which is expected to be recruited at a lower salary than the previous incumbent. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: This would be the group that would send out the questionnaire, etc., on the discussion paper for new heritage legislation for Manitoba, or would be responsible for the planning on that? I believe you mentioned the legislation here. HON. E. KOSTYRA: No that was developed by the Historic Resources Branch itself, related to that specific piece of legislation. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for River Heights. MR. W STEEN: Perhaps, Mr. Chairman, my question can be taken under planning or research.

The Hudson's Bay Company on Main Street has a valuable library of western Canadian history, which I understand they are finding very expensive to keep up. Ha s the Min ister, th rough his office, had any communication with the Hudson's Bay Company of the Province of Manitoba, acquiring this valuable asset that I think should stay within Manitoba and not be moved to Toronto if that's where the Hudson's Bay Company has greater storage space and capacity, in which to handle this particular history that is so valuable? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: This question would be better asked under archives or libraries, but let me attempt 2109

Tuesday, 21 Mar, 1985 to answer the question at this point. If the member wants more detailed information I'd suggest that he wait until that point. We have had considerable correspondence with the Hudson's Bay Company over the last number of years respecting a number of their activities. Because of the recent downturn in the economy that has impacted on Hudson's Bay Company, I guess to a greater extent than other companies, there has been some pulling back of a number of their activities, I guess in all areas of their operation, but specifically in some areas related to their own heritage collections.

As an example they stopped the ongoing operations of the Hudson's Bay record society some years ago, about a year-and-a-half ago. We had discussion with them and correspondence between the parent company and the Governor of the Hudson's Bay Company and they indicated it wasn't because of their lessening of commitment in those areas, but one that they had to absorb cutbacks in all areas of their operations which also impacted on that. In regard to the libary, the public access has been limited to the library as a result of these cutbacks.

There hasn't been any attempt at the present time or any information that we have that they intend to move that out of Manitoba. They have agreed that prior to making any decisions with respect to that library, that they would consult with us prior to any decisions being reached. So there is no intention to move that from Manitoba as far as we kn ow; and we have an unde rtaking from them that they will notify us if they are contemplating any changes. MR. W.

STEEN: I'd just ask the Minister, I realize that I'm asking a very general question and he's giving me a general answer and I appreciate the fact that further down in his Estimates is where you get more detailed answers. Have either the two universities located in Winnipeg made any overtures to the Minister to obtain this collection of history, if the Hudson's Bay Company makes it available through the province? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, there's been no requests from any of the three universities in Manitoba with respect to the ... MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr.

Chairman, I just wanted to ask about some areas of questioning. One is, where in the report would questions about the Playhouse Theatre and/or the Centennial Concert Hall fit under? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Under Cultural Resources or Grants Adm inistration, Items 2.(

b) or 2.(c). MR. R. DOERN: And what about the program of supporting books and magazines? HON. E. KOSTYRA: There are a couple of areas that that relates to. One is to the Cu ltural Grants which go to the Manitoba Arts Council. The second area, and I think the area that the mem ber is referring to specifically, relates to the ERDA Federal-Provincial Agreement which provides for the joint Cultural Periodicals and Book Publishing Program which comes under the Manitoba Jobs Fund and that's where the direct delivery is.

The administrative unit is the Cultural Indus tries which is located in the department, but we could deal with any questions related to that under the cultural area, what the actual funding of that is through the Jobs Fund. MR. R. DOERN: You said it might be under the Jobs Fund, etc., but you also gave another area. Which resolution and number is that? HON. E. KOSTYRA: 2.(b). MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (c)(1) -the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNS TON: Pass. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (c)(1)-p ass; 1. (c)(2)-pass. 1. (d)( 1) Communication and Information Services: Salaries; 1. (d)

(2) Other Expenditures -the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, there's a very large increase in Other Expenditures under this line and I wonder If the Minister could explain the increase from $6,000 to $19, 000.00. The salaries appear to have remained the same, which would indicate that the number of people is the same. What is the increase in the second line? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The increase is $12 ,700, and $1 0,000 of that is for the Department of Culture, Heritage and Recreation Newsletter, which comes out on a quarterly basis.

Those costs were transferred from other branches of the department. The additional $2,700 is for word processing and some other minor cost increases. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Has the number of personnel remained the same? HON. E. KOST YRA : Yes, two - a director and administrative secretarial support. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Is the personnel that handles the new periodical -in other words, the same numbers are handling the new periodical as well? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes. MR. F. JOHNSTON: This is the periodical, the beige one that I see that comes out? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I think it's beige. I have copies MR. F.

JOHNSTON: I wondered which one it is, I think it's the same one . HON. E. KOSTYRA: lt's the departmental newsletter. There's a copy. 211•• 2110

Tueaclay. 21 Mey. 1185 MR. F. JOHNST ON: Thank you. Is there anybody supplying periodicals tor this? mean, it's a fairly extensive newsletter. Is there somebody that is supplying the articles or the periodicals tor this magazine that is put in, and does this group that are handling it, do they analyze what will go in? I'm just wondering how it goes together. HON. E. KOSTYRA: it's edited by the dir ector of the branch and the response is from branches within the department, related agencies and community groups.

Some of the articles are requested from branches; some are submitted by branches; the same with outside agencies. Sometimes there's a request for specific articles and in some cases there are articles just presented; the same with community organizations in the br oad cultural field. If you look through the publication, you see a range of articles, some related to dir ect departmental initiatives, others to community.

The editor does, I guess, what every other editor tries to do, ensure that there is a balance between the various components of the department, the cultural heritage aspect and the recreational aspect. MR . CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MR S. G. HAMMOND: Mr. Chairman, who gets the Manitoba Cultural and Heritage periodical? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: There's a mailing list of around 3,000; it includes all Manitoba schools, universities, all community organizations that relate to our department; that is, cultural organizations, recreation organizations in all parts of the province, all of the museums, heritage societies, and any individuals that request to be put on it. We have requests from individuals from time to time who want to receive it and they receive it -recreation di rectors, any organization that relates to our department is on the mailing list. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (d)( 1)- pass? The Member tor Sturgeon Creek. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: Just before you pass it, I wonder before we go any further, just so we don't kind of miss where something should go -under the documents that the Minister just handed out with the numbers on it, like Film Classification Board, Film Appeal Board, Public Library Board - they're all under a

section in the Estimates. There is one here, Documents Committee, what would that come under? Historic Sites Committee where would that come under, just so I'll have some HON. E. KOSTYRA: The Documents Committee is under the Archives, it's government record keeping, and the Historic Sites Advisory Board comes under the Historic Resources Branch, Branch No. 26. MR . F. JOHNS TON: Heritage Manitoba? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Heritage Manitoba would also come under the Historic Resources. it's not operating at the present time. MR. F. JOHNSTON: The lntercultural Council would come ... HON. E. KOSTYRA: lt has it own . . . MR.

F. JOHNSTON: Is it there? Okay. Arts Council . HON. E. KOSTYRA: Arts Council, and actually the rest can come under Grants Administration, which Is 2.(b), 2.(b)(3) actually. The Public Library Advisory Board is not . . . but that could come under Public Library Services. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Oka y, thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (d)( 1)-p ass; 1. (d)(2)- pass. 1. (e)

(1) Financial Services: Salaries; l.(e)

(2) Other Expenditures -the Member tor Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: This is just the auditing and financial service of the department, the personnel, etc? HON. E. KOSTYRA: This is the financial services which looks at the overall management of financial planning and operations productivity throughout the department. They look after such things as the whole Estimates Review and budget-related submissions. They do the monitoring of the financial performance of the department.

They look at the admi nistrative feasibility of new programs, whether or not they can be implemented and at what cost, and developing the supporting financial and management needs. They look at areas like office automation, data processing, and look at overall operations. There's a di rector, two program analysts and one systems analyst, and one secretary in the department. The slight increase is related to merit increases in salary. MR. F.

JOHNST ON: They would be involved with research and planning advising on a financial basis; In other words, if there's a program presented, they would do the financial analysis tor research and planning, or would they be the ones that would say whether we have it in the budget, or is it feasible financially, or what? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I guess all of those. They would certainly indicate whether or not it's within the budget.

They would also look at putting costs to specific programs and developing the admin istrative mechanisms that are needed or put some value on them, or ind icate what kind of systems would have to be in place to implement a specific policy or program. MR. F. JOHNS TON: And there's no change in the personnel? No change? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, there are five positions, and there were five last year. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (e)(1)- pass. 1. (e)(2) -the Member tor Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I have a question, Mr. Chairman.

Who in the department would be looking after the affirmative action that the government put into place? 21 11

Tueaday. 21 May, 1985 HON. E. KOSTYRA: We're coming up to that under 1. (g)

(1) Personnel Services. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (e)(1)-p ass; 1. (e)(2)- pass. 1. (f)

(1) Administrative Services: Salaries; 1. (f)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, there is no change In the dollars here in expenditure In Salaries and Other Expenditures. Administrative Services, I'm just not quite sure. You have Executive Support, you have Research and Planning, you have the Financial Services. What is the Admin istrative Services group? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: This is the branch that deals with the voucherlng and the all of the specific accounting procedures, looking after submis sions, Orders-in Council, contracts, any kinds of agreements that are entered into between the department and agencies, vehicle assignment, administration, utilization, they look after physical asset reports and records. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Isn't that an overlapping with the . . . When you mentioned vouchers and that type of work, does that not interface or Is that not the same as Financial Services, the payment of bills and vouchers, etc.? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Maybe it's the kinds of terms we use In defining. The Financial Services Is the overall financial planning for the department, whil e the Admi ni strative Services is more the admin istrative financial accounting, if you will, looking at the detailed vouchers and bill paying and authorization of all of those kind of things. MR. F. JOHNSTON: If I may, Mr. Chairman, could I ask the Minister - he said there were five people In Financial Services? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes. Ther e's a director, two program analysts and one systems analyst and one administrative secretary.

I might just go on to the obvious next question. The staff in Admini stative Services is six positions: one director, one accountant, and four clerks. MR. CHAIRMAN: 1. (f)(1)-p ass; 1.(f)(2)- pass. 1. (g)

(1) Personnel Services: Salaries; 1. (g)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Possibly the Minister could answer my questions. Who Is in charge of affirmative action and what kind of things are they doing in this area in the department? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The affirmative action co-ordinator Is the director of the branch. There is a committee established in accordance with the overall government policy. There is research under way at the present time. There is also a draft action plan being developed and it's anticipated that by the early fall of this year a formal program will be in place for the department. MR.

CHAIRMAN: 1. (g)(1 )-p ass; 1. (g)(2)- pass. There will be no resolution on this item because of the Minister's Salary. Item 2. Culture, Heritage and Recreation Programs, 2. (a)

(1) Executive Adminis tration: Salaries; 2.(a)

(2) Other Expenditures - the Member for Elmwood. MR. A. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask some questions. I don't know If this is the area or not but there has been some substantial funding of ethnic organizations. I think back to a year ago when, on one occasion, I belie ve the Mi nister provided $50,000 cheques to two cultural organizations In this building. Is this the area under which we can discuss this question? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The specific grants that the member is referring to - I'm just trying to find the actual spot - I believe it comes under Item No. 5, Expenditures Related to Capital.

There is a Capital Grants program that has been In existence for a number of years and it's under that Item - 5.(

b) to be exact. MR. A. DOERN: Perhaps the Min ister could just clarify the occasion I'm thinking of, which was either 1983 or 198 4 - I believe it was 1983 - he presented $50,000 cheques. Were those capital cheques or were those cheques that were for ongoing expenses, etc.? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I don't know the specific occasion the member is referring to, but by the sound of what he's describing, if they were cheques or grants In the amount of $50,000, they would probably relate to the Multicultural Capital Grants Program which provides capital grants for a maximum of $50,000 to organizations that have, as their prime purpose, activities in the ethnic area. Those grants, that program, is a program that's contained under Item 5.(b). MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)(1) - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, is there a separate deputy for this department under Executive Administration? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, there is an Assistant Deputy Min ister that is over this whole area. MR. F. JOHNSTON: And what is his staff there? lt appears there's an increase in his staff. HON. E. KOSTYRA: There are three positions in this area. One is the Assistant Deputy Min ister, Mr, Tom Carson; there's the special advisor on Recreation, Mr. AI Miller, and there's an administrative secretary. The salary cost increase Is related to merit increments and salary cost adjustments. MR. F.

JOHNSTON: If I'm following what the Minister presented to us, that line comes under - is 21, Cultural, Heritage and Recreation Division, Grants . . . HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, if I could clarify. This Is the executive administration for all of this branch, that is the Assistant Deputy Mi nister that looks after all those areas that flow right through to the end, up and to including Item (

g) which is Regional Services. The Deputy 2112

TuHd ey, 21 May, 1985 Minister's respo nsibility is the Historic Resources Branch, the Public Libr ary Services, Recreation Services, Cultural Resources, Grants Administration. MA. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Niakwa. MA. A. KOVNATS: Where would I find the grant - whatever kind of a grant, either cultural or otherwise - for the Piney Blueberry Festival which is celebrating its 25th anniversary this year, to my understanding? HON. E.

KOSTYAA: As indicated, when this question was raised in the Estimates the last three years I believe, there is no specific grant that's available for the Piney Blueberry Festival under this department. As a result of the question that was raised last year, staff did meet with them on a number of occasions, June 25th, August 23rd, August 27th, and September 17, 1984 and there was a meeting held as late as May 7th of this year to further look at plans for the festival and there was assistance given In the amount of $400, to the 1984 festival. MA. A. KOVNATS: I just want to make sure.

The Minister said there was assistance of $400 for 1984. Has the Minister considered any assistance for 1985, this year, which will be the 25th year celebrating the Piney Blueberry Festival? I would suggest to the Minister at this time that an awful lot of blueberries have gone through the Community Centre at Piney and it's been well appreciated and I know tha t I made some commitment to see that the Minister was given some blueberry pie which is the tops In the whole province and maybe even throughout the world.

Has there been any commitment to the Pin ey Blueberry Festival this year for any assistance? - (Interjection) - Oh, and he'll be presented with ice cream on a plate - no problem that way at all. Has there been any commitment to them for this year, the 25th year of celebrating the Piney Blueberry Festival? HON. E. KOSTYAA: I have not made any commitment to them. The staff works with them and they have the discretion to provide assistance If it is deemed necess ary. They met with them on May 7th and I presume if there was any assistance and if they qualified, it would be processed in the usual fashion. MA. A.

KOVNATS: I just want to thank the Mini ster for his staff's co-operation last year and I would hope there would be the same sort of a commitment there. They're not looking for big dollars, that's not the thing, but I know that they're planning it.

I was out In that area just over the weekend planting my garden - not blueberries - just checking for blueberries and it's not going to be a very good crop this year, at least not on my property, but I think that the people out there do appreciate the assistance that they've received from the Min ister and would hope that, considering it's the 25th this year, there will be some additional assistance coming. HON. E. KOSTYAA: I am informed that they have applied for a Public Events Sponsorship Program grant and if they qualify for that under the terms of that grant program, they will indeed get assistance. MA.

CHAIRMAN: 2.(a)X 1)- pass; 2.(aX2)- pass. 2.(bX 1) - the Member for Sturgeon Creek. MA. F. JOHNSTON: The Grants Admin istrat ion: Salaries, Other Expenditures and Grant Assistance. This department or the line (

b) In the Estimates, are they the group that make the decisions as to who receives grants? Do they examine the applications? Are they the body that handles the grants for Cultural Resources, as well as Recreation Services? HON. E. KOSTYAA: The Member may recall that last year, as a result of reorganization, this unit was formed actually from a unit that existed in the former Department of Fitness, Recreation and Sport. At that time I indicated that some grants were being processed through the Grants Administration unit and that, in the future, more grants would be.

At the present time we've moved all of the grants of the department through this unit except for those that are admin istered through the Public Library Services - and I'm told that some other grants through the Regional Services Division are not done through the Grants Administration unit. That's line (

g) In this section; but all other grants go through this branch. MA. F. JOHNSTON: I didn't mention it, so it's the Regional Services, Library are the two that have grants that are approved th at may not go thr ough this particular section. I can see that, Regional Services Just to follow up, Mr. Ch airman, the Provincial Archives would receive their grants through this group, through this body. HON. E. KOSTYAA: The Provincial Archives is part of the department so there's no grant as such. There's just direct appropriation. MA. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I've just had this given to me today.

The first page, I see a total. The grants that are presented to us in this document today, is that other than the - like the Grant Assistance, that's $6.9 million represents the grants that we have before us? HON. E. KOSTYAA: There are two sets of documents that I presented - I presume that both were passed out? - two separate listings of grants. There were two separate lis tings given to you .

One was headed "Manitoba Culture, Heritage and Recreation, Grant Listing - Departmental Appropriations." The other Is "Manitoba Culture, Heritage and Recreation, Grant Listing - Lottery Trust Fund." The ones that we're dealing with in Appropriation are the ones listed under tha t document that says "D epartmental Appropriations." The specific line we are looking at, at the present moment, the Item (bX3) equates to the heading on the inside page of the one that says, "Grant listing departmental appropriatio n," where it says, "Grants to major cultural organizations, 1983-84," and lists Centre Cu ltural Franco-Manltobain, Manitoba Arts Council.

That is similar to the line we're dealing with here. Again, If I could just clarify, that's operating grants. The capital are listed under Capital Grants. 2113

Tue8day, 21 May, 1985 I wonder if it would be helpful to the member if I provided the grants for those same organizations this year. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Yes, if the Min ister would just list those, thank you. HON. E. KOSTYRA: The Franco-Manltoban Cultural Centre grant for this year is $240,900; the Manitoba Arts Council grant this year Is $1 ,521 ,400; th e Centennial Centre Corporation funding Is now out of Lotteries which is not listed in Appropria tion.

The Museum of Man and Nature's grant is $2,91 0,700; the Ukrainian Cultural and Education Centre is $1 19, 800; the Western Manitoba Centennial Auditorium is $53,500; the Winnipeg Art Gallery is $1 ,366,000.00. In addition, there is the Heritage Conservation Service which is paid out to those two organizations and including the Archives. Its expenditure this year is $88,300.00. In addition, because of the transfer of the Centennial Centre Corporation grant into Lotteries, there are a number of other grants that have now moved into Appropriation that were formally funded out of Lotteries.

Now I'll give a listing of those. I'm just seeing if I have a copy of it. lt will make it easier rather than going through . . . Well, I guess the best way would be for me just to take you through them briefly. lt will take a couple of minutes. One is Grants to Provincial Recreation Organizations; the total of that is $98,000.00. These are grants that were formerly in Lotteries and we moved them into Appropriation because they're ongoing grants and have been ongoing for a number of years.

Included in that are grants to the Canadian Hostelling Associa tion; the Canadia n Red Cross, Ma nitoba Division; the Gir l Gu ides, Ma nitoba Co uncil; th e Man itoba Camping Assoc iation; the Ma ni toba Horseshoe Players Associa tion; the Man itoba Naturalists Society; the Manitoba Parks and Recreation Association; Scouts · Canada, Manitoba Council; and Twirl Manitoba. These were all funded in previous years out of Lotteries, but because they're ongoing grants, they've been transferred into Appropriation. They're all being funded at the same level as last year.

The Winnipeg Boys and Girls Clubs, there's a grant of $20,000, which is the same as last year. There are Provincial Heritage Recreation grants for a total of $1 58,000 and they go to the Manitoba Historical Society, the St. Boniface Historical Society, the Western Canada Aviation Museum, Heritage Winnipeg. Then there are the Museums grants which are grant assistance to the rural -well, the small musuems. They used to be in Lotteries; they're not in Apppropriation and they total this year $325,000.00.

So that makes the total under - oh I'm sorry two others - the Osborne Village Cultural Centre which is $50,000, the same as last year but was funded out of Lotteries; and the Manitoba lntercultural Council, $40,000, which is costs related to their biann ual assembly to be held in September 1985. The total of all those grants is, as ind icated, $6,971 ,600.00. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I'm looking now at the 1983-84 "Grants to Major Cultural Organizations." The Franco-Manitoban Cultural Centre, $231,000 operating, $40,000 capital. What was that $40,000 capital for? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: I'm informed that that was repairs to the heating system and roof. MR. R. DOERN: Does the Federal Government make operating grants to the centre? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The centre is owned by the Province of Manitoba. lt has its own act of Legislature; in essence, it is the property of the Province of Manitoba. These costs relate to the physical upkeep of the building and the operating costs. The Federal Government, as I understand it, provides programming costs for the operation of the centres in areas of programming for the centre.

Our budget, in essence, pays for the capital Improvements and the running of the centre. MR. R. DOERN: When we're looking at these grants - I think the Min ister gave a figure earlier of $240,000 -was that for the present fiscal year and then $231 ,000 for the previous fiscal year? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, the grant has been Increased from $231 ,600 to $240,900, an increase of $9,000.00. MR. R. DOERN: So the Min ister is telling me that that grant is for heat, light, water and janitorial services? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Basic operating costs of the centre, heat, light, utilities, core staff. MR. R.

DOERN: Then, over and above for programming or cultural or artistic purposes, how much does the province provide for that? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Nothing else goes to the CCFM for operating that I'm aware of or for any programming from the Province of Manitoba.

The only other grants that would go would be through organizations that may use the premises like Cercle Moliere, the theatre company would get assistance from the Manitoba Arts Council or an organization like Les Danseurs de la Riviere-Rouge that perform there, they would be eligible for assistance, but there's no other provincial assistance that goes to the centre. MR. R. DOERN: Does the Minister have a breakdown, to indir ect grants to the centre, through the funding of organizations that use or access the centre - such as Cercle Moliere? HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, I don't. MR. R.

DOERN: Is the Minister telling us that he doesn't provide funding for Cercle Moliere? HON. E. KOSTYRA: That's not what I said. The que stion was, do I have a listing of grants to organizations that use the centre? No, I don't. 2114

Tueaday, 21 May, 1985 MA. A. DOEAN: Can the Minister give us such a list? Is it just it's not convenient or is he telling us that his department doesn't, in fact, make these grants? MA. CHAIRM AN: One question at a time. The Honourable Member for Elmwood. MA. A. DOE AN: I'm just saying, is the answer that I'm getting that the Min ister doesn't have a list because he doesn't have one handy? Is that the answer? HON. E. KOSTYAA: The answer is that we do not maintain a list of organizations that use that centre; nor do we have a list of the grants that are given to those organizations that use the centre.

If the member requires that information, we would have to research it. I was merely ind icating to him that there are organizations that I'm aware of that use the centre that are provided funds from other sources. I do not have that kind of comprehensive list. I did not say that the Province of Manitoba did not provide funds to Cercle Moliere, the Province of Manitoba dir ectly does not provide any funds to Cercle Moliere; however, the Manitoba Arts Council does provide a grant to that theatre company as it does other professional threatre companies in Winnipeg. I don't have that information available.

We do not keep that kind of information in the department; it's never been asked for in terms of any of the cultural centres in the province. MA. A. DOE AN: Can the Minister indicate, out of the 1.3 million or 1. 4 million that the Arts Council has, how much funding they provide to Cercle Moliere? HON. E. KOSTY AA: I don't have that figure readily available. I'll get a copy of the Annual Report of the Manitoba Arts Council and see what figure there is. I would think it is very small in terms of the Arts Council's overall budget. MA. CHAI RMAN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MA. F. JOHNSTON: Mr.

Chairman, I wonder if the Minister - the Manitoba Museum of Man and Nature has been increased to 2.9 million, approximately. The capital last year was 220,000. There was one

section of the museum that was being developed over the period of a couple of years. What capital grants would they be -what would be authorized for this year? HON. E. KOSTYAA: That is under the Capital Grants section. I believe it's -I'm sorry, I'll get the exact figure maybe when we get to it -Yes, it's listed under Capital Grants, that's

Section 5. The figure that has been allocated there for capital purposes is $10 0,000 and it relates to -their present capital program -I'm trying to think of the words to describe it -it's the area adjacent to the planetarium where they're building this new gal lery, in essence, related to science and technology theme, called Touch the Un iverse. lt's in the area adjacent to and around the planetarium. it's been in the development stage, I guess for two, three years. I think this is the middle year now. MA. CHAIRM AN: The Member for Elmwood. MA. A. DOEAN: Mr.

Chairman, on the Centennial Centre, again I'm looking here at'83-84, 1. 2 million operating, 197 ,000 capital. One of the things that I think is sadly lacking in a centre which is really a multi million dollar multi-purpose centre which is heavily used and enormously successful, is the fact that they lack a decent sign in front. Almost any cultural theatre of any kind has a sign.

They have four or five little poster signs as you go by, but for a facility of that magnitude and importance, it seems only logical that there would be a large theatre marquee in the front so that anybody driving by would know what is on that day or that week or what is coming, but you don't. You go by a building; it's a building that's not really identified, there are little posters there so if you went by through the dr iveway at three miles an hour, you might be able to catch a glimpse of something.

Now, over the years, there has been consideration given to putting up a sign, and at this point in time it probably would cost a couple of hundred thousand dollars, and I was wondering whether the Provincial Government has anything in the works to correct that shortcoming? HON. E. KOSTYAA: I'm not aware of anything specific with respect to the Centennial Centre Corporation to deal with that but I will take the member's concern to the board of the corporation to see if they do have any plans with respect to improving the signage at the centre.

I might also add, the member earlier ind icated he wanted to raise some questions with regard to the Playhouse. This might be ail opportune or appropriate place to raise that question. MA. A. DOE AN: Just again, on the signage, if you could imagine a large commercial theatre that has a darkened front, it would seem to be a contradiction in terms, and that's basically what we have.

We have a tremendous opportunity, the City Hall is there, you have all the traffic going down Main Street and into the North End, you have all the trattlc going over the Disraell from Elmwood, East KOd"onan, North Kildonan, Transcona, and hundr eds of thousands of people funnelling by there on a daily basis, and people don't know from looking at the building what is going on and I think that it's time, some many years later , after the construction of the building, that that was corrected. I would hope that the Minister might explore that and perhaps see whether he can come up with the funding.

Just in regard to the Playhouse - the Playhouse is an old and honourable building and we've heard of plans, we've heard the Minister responsible for Lotteries comment with, I think, little enthusiasm about the project, but I'm asking the Minister of Cultural Affairs whether he is involved and whether he is willing to explore the possibility of putting some money into the Playhouse, which is an excellent theatre, but which has tremendous shortcomings. lt's an old theatre and I've heard of some plans of a restaurant and a tunnel and a renovation and all the rest of it.

Is the Minister now actively involved in considering some substantial improvements to the Playhouse? HON. E. KOSTYAA: There have been a number of proposals over the years with respect to the Playhouse. 2115

Tue•day, 21 May, 1985 There was some Provincial Government suppor t th rough the Mani toba Job s Fund and the NEED Program about two years ago to do some renovations with respect to the roof and other aspects of the centre. There was also a review done, in terms of the Arts Accommodation Study, under the Winnipeg Core Area Initiative as to whether or not that would fit into that particular thrust under the Core Area Initiative and it was one that was not accepted as the primary project under that program.

There is presently a proposal that has recently come out of the city for the Playhouse that is being reviewed, both by our department and the Department of Urban Affairs. Whether or not there's the funds to support that project . . . let me phrase it this way - there are no funds to support that project this year.

Whether or not, in terms of looking at future years and expenditures as they relate to major cultural institutions or as they relate to transfer payments to the City of Winnipeg, because that is a facility that's owned by the City of Winnipeg, then support to that project would have to be determined in relation to other priorities with respect to funding for the City of Winnipeg.

If the city comes forward with a number of capital requests, including the Playhouse, including road repairs, including bridge construction, Rainbow Stage, other city-owned facilities and the upgrade or the major renovation of the Playhouse would have to be determined, in terms of those priorities. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, just one more question at this point.

I don't know if this is the right area or not, but the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce near Portage and Main, a beautiful high ceiling building's been closed for years, eight or ten storeys high, with a - 1 forget what you call it - but they have a huge open area. There have been plans made over the years, a lot of proposals going back at least 10 years for that facility. Is there anything in the works to save that property, to renovate it and make use of it? I recall about 10 years ago plans for arts groups, for the ballet, etc., but we haven't heard anything recently. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: There's been one specific proposal that's been raised in recent times with respect to that building and cultural uses, and that was a proposal, or is a proposal, from the Prairie Theatre Exchange to have that converted into theatre space for Prairie Theatre Exchange, but that is something that was reviewed, in terms of possible Core Area Initiative assistance and was not accepted; and I guess it's still on the table for future considerations. 1 believe the price tag of that was well in excess of $2 million or $3 million for conversion of that space into a theatre, so it still is on the table but I don't know of anyone who's got those kind of funds to commit to it at this point in time. 1 might just answer the previous question from the member with regard to Cercle Moliere.

I just reviewed a copy of the last Annual Report of the Manitoba Arts Council which indicated in it that the grant from the Manitoba Arts Council to Cercle Moliere Inc. was $50,000 for the fiscal year ending March, 1984. MR. R. DOERN: On the Canadian Imperial Bank building, the Minister is involved in attempting to save certain buildings and renovate certain buildings and make heritage, etc. Is this one of those buildings that is on that list? HON. E.

KOSTYRA: The building has never been designated . . . we're off subject here, in terms of heritage properties, but that building has not been declared a provincial historic site by the province. lt is designated by the City of Winnipeg as an historic site in the City of Winnipeg. We work and encourage any owners of heritage buildings to look at either continued or alternate uses of those buildings and we would certainly assist any group or any organization to put that or any other building into active use. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: Yes, I'd like to question, Mr.

Chairman, about the Winnipeg International Children's Festival. What's the financial status with that festival? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The festival is going on the end of this May again. lt Is receiving a grant through the Lotteries of $80,000 in fiscal1985-86. I'm Informed that the board has now put in place controls and accountability and have organized themselves to reduce their deficit and have come to an agreement, I believe, with their creditors. I know at one point we had heard that some creditors were concerned about getting bills paid, but I believe that they've come to terms with all their creditors. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: What percent increase would that be, this year from last? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The grant last year was $78,21 5.87 with regard to their actual festival and a tour of rural Manitoba. $70,000 was directly related to the festival itself and the additional $8,215.87 was a tour that they had outside of Winnipeg. I don't know the actual percentage on that. MRS. G. HAMMOND: In the grant listings, it's down as $60, 71 2.00. HON. E. KOSTYRA: That's the previous year. MRS. G. HAMMOND: That's the year before that? HON. E. KOSTYRA: That's the year ending March 1984.

We're now dealing with the year ending - I gave you the figures for March 1985 and the grant for the next year is for the year ending March 1986. MR. CHAIRMAN: 2.(b)(1) - the Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I just have one further question on that. Does the Minis ter have the exact deficit that the Children's Festival has? HON. E. KOSTYRA: According to their financial statement, their deficit as of August 31s t - I guess that is their year end - August 31, 1984 was $60,483.00. 2116

Tuesday, 21 May, 1985 MRS. G. HAMM OND: I just have the question about the -is this where I can ask about the Royal Winnipeg Ballet or is that the capital . . . HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, go ahead. MRS. G. HAMMOND: I understand that they're building from scratch -they're building a new building, not going into the school, Winnipeg No. 1 property now. I guess I'm just curious to know why they didn't end up going into one of the heritage buildings, more in the inner core area -and if the Minister has any comments on that? HON. E.

KOSTY RA: First of all, I gave the member incorrect information in terms of the Children's Festival, the deficit figure is $85,068.00. In terms of the Royal Winnipeg Ballet, the capital grant to the ballet was out of the Jobs Fund. Actually it was provided out of the Jobs Fund two years ago, but because they didn't commence it had to be carried over every year and revoted. lt has now, I understand, been processed because they are actually starting construction.

Their original proposal, their preferred site was the lsbister School site which is owned by the Winnip eg School Division and in active and continually used as adult education in the downtown of Winnipeg and the Winnipeg School Division was not prepared to give up that building because they saw the need for ongoing use. There was considerable discussion with the North of Portage Development Corporation to see if they could be located in the North of Portage area.

Unfortunately those discussions did not conclude in any kind of arrangement between the North of Portage and the Royal Winnipeg Ballet for a suitable site and suitable terms there, so they then had to look at an alternate site. The site that they have chosen is still in the core of Winnipeg, albeit it's on the south side of Portage Avenue rather than on the north side, but in terms of the Jobs Fund grant that was given to them there were no conditions placed. Originally the conditions were placed that it be part of the North of Portage redevelopment that was being planned at that time.

When that didn't work out, the province removed that condition from its grant and said as long as it's located within the core area bounda ries that we weren't going to force them into a site specific or a building specific. So the province put the condition that it had to be in the core and it is within the bound aries of the core of Winnipeg, but not on the north side but on the south side of Portage. MR S. G.

HAMM OND: I guess my concern and my question was, we have heritage buildings in the downtown area and I was just wondering if there wasn't any pressure put on the Royal Winnipeg Ballet to renovate rather than build anew. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I think the ballet -and we could maybe get the information subsequent or get it from the ballet -they did do an extensive search for buildings.

I think part of the problem that they ran into, as I understand it, was the fact that because of the kind of facility they needed with rehearsal space it would be very difficult, if not impossible, in some of the older buildings to renovate in such a way to provide the kind of space they would need because of the kind of construction -you know, with pillars and those kinds of things, that they found it very difficult and very expensive to look at any specific heritage building.

Even at the lsbister School site, if they were to get that, they would have to build on considerable space at that site in order to meet their needs. MR. CHAIRM AN: The Member for Sturgeon Creek. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, this department also, Gr ants Admin istrat ion, would be involved in the Lotteries Fund Grants as well, would they? The Minister mentioned they put it all under one roof and the administration would approve the Lotteries Fund Grants as well in this section? HON. E.

KOS TYRA: Yes, the Grants Administration admin isters the -and that's the other package that 1 presented to the member of the grants listing which are funded out of the Lotteries Trust Fund. They are not part of the appropriation. They're the portion of the revenue that has traditionally gone to the Departments of Culture, Heritage and Recreation from Lottery, but they do the actual administration of all of the -most of the programs. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Then can I ask -on Page 15 of your Lotteries Funds, we have a $4,500 grant to the Manitoba Arts Festival and Syndicate.

On Page 17 - of course it's obviously a different program -but we have $30,000 to the Manitoba Arts Festival Inc., and then, of course, when we return - and it's under another section, I would imagine the provincial regional -but we look at the departmental funding and we find Associated Manitoba Arts Festival, $20,000.00. So we have $20,000, $30,000, $4,500.00 -we've got the total of $35,000 and it's the same organization.

Now what is the reason for having these all - and 1 know that they're an organization applying for different programs, but is there not some way that they can be treated in· such a way that when they apply, they say we need X number of dollars, and let them list them and let them look at them. But we have it under Lotteries and we have it under Departmental and they're in three different places. There may be more, I haven't . . . HON. E.

KOST YRA: First of all, the Associate d Manitoba Arts Festivals is the umbrella or provincial organizations of all the music festivals that exist throughout the province and there are 48 of these organizations in all the rural communities or in many of the rural communities. So the funds that are provided out of appropriation are for their basic operating programs. The support areas that are listed in the Lotteries are for either specific projects that they undertake on behalf of the ru ral communities or specific programs that they get into.

We look at those on a project-by-project basis and provide their base operating support out of appropriation and look at special projects that they 2117

Tuesday, 21 May, 1985 may do in relation to the lottery revenues that may be available. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Now just so we're clear on this, looking at the report and then this report with the Lotteries Trust Fund, these are the different - and I don't want to take up the time of the committee and the Minister's time if we can just sort of get it clarified - looking at the report, we have the different programs.

So really, beginning with Community Cultural Councils Grants, that's a program; Co-ordinating Assistance Grants is a program; Municipal Grants, a program; Community Museums Grants, a program; Public Library Capital Grants. Here we have the Capital Grants and I imagine that's coming out of the Lotteries funds or the Jobs Fund. I don't know whether the Capital Grants for Libraries are listed under the Lotteries funds. HON. E. KOSTYRA: No, they're Lotteries. MR. F. JOHNSTON: They're not Jobs Fund; they're Lotteries funds. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Although Jobs Fund has provided support to Libraries, but there has been, for many years, a Public Libr ary Capital Grants Program under Lotteries. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Okay. Then you have the Provincial Regional Organizations Grants; Skills Transfer. We discussed that last year as to that program. I believe that was new last year, wasn't it? HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, it was revised last year. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Arts School Grants; Linguistic Support Grants. Well, as I said, these grants are listed according to th e different programs within the department, which corresponds with your report. HON. E.

KOSTYRA: Yes, these are the detailed listings that obviously would double the report if we had to do that. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Mr. Chairman, I would ask the Minister - now, this is not a question regarding any of the grants but - I think he would realize that, when we got the report, the same as with the Small Business Development Grants, etc., they're all listed in there. I know there's a much larger number of grants in this department, but could it be possible to have these grants come with the report so we aren't shifting around at the present time?

That's a slight criticism; I appreciate getting them, but I wonder if it would be possible in the future to have them, not necessarily with the report, but sort of delivered. HON. E. KOSTYRA: I agree. MR. F. JOHNSTON: Thank you. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Kirkfield Park. MRS. G. HAMMOND: What are the criteria for receiving a Linguistic Support Grant? Can anybody come up with an organization or do they have to have so many members or do they . . . just what is it exactly? HON. E. KOSTYRA: The program has specific guidelines which I believe were all distributed last year. I could read through them.

The program is to provide support to Manitoba non profit community-based ethnocultural organizations for the teaching of ancestral language programs outside the public school system for school-age children beginning at the age of four and ending in Grade 12. it's not the intent of this program to duplicate a system provided by other Provincial Government departments. Applic ations must be submi tted by non-profit community-based ethnocultural organizations who have operated a language program for at least one year. Then there's a level of assistance and there's an application procedure. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: I understood that part of it. I'm just wondering, as I look down the list, and they have to be teaching it - do you look into it if there's one pupil or two or can anyone start a program? HON. E. KOSTYRA: I believe it's a base enrolment of 15 students and then the grant is based on a level of students, 15 to 50, 50 to 100 on a descending scale of assistance depending on the size. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: So, in essence, any group who wishes to teach, under your criteria, can come in. lt doesn't matter if there are maybe two or three, say, Scottish or Irish or whatever there is - if they choose to have a program, it will get some sort of support. HON. E. KOSTYRA: As I understand it, there has to be a minimum enrolment of 15 students, so that it is an actual operating school. These are after-four or weekend schools, but any ancestral languages are eligible to apply. MRS. G.

HAMMOND: In other words, any group can _, support, can start this type of a . . . if they get 15 students, they can get some money out of the government. HON. E. KOSTYRA: Yes, this program has been in existence for - I don't know - about eight or nine years. There was a major revision to it last year, after consultation with the commun ity. MR. CHAIRMAN: The Member for Elmwood. MR. R. DOERN: Mr. Chairman, I wanted to ask some questions about the government's policy of funding books and magazines and other publications which I believe is under this area.

Just to make a few general comments and then to ask a few ques tions, there has been, I think, a contro versy and somewhat of a shock on the part of the general public about some of the publications that the government is funding. Nobody is going to, I think, question - maybe there are some, but I don't think anybody's going to question the general principle of the program which is presumably to help struggling 2118

TUesday, 21 May, 1985 publishers of magazines and books to publish and distribute their products. it's obviously well known that it is difficult to survive as a small provincial or Canadian publisher. American magazines have tremendous circulations.

We're flooded with paperbacks; we're flooded with magazines and in spite of all that we have still witnessed that in the last few years or decade there have been American magazines which have gone down the tube with circulations of five and six million because they weren't able to obtain the advertising, even though they had tremendous and impressive circulation statistics.

So I just note in passing, though some may question the value of providing public support to publishers of magazines, books and periodicals, I don't; but I strongly question the judgment used by somebody or some body in your department in regard to two of these publications. I will just mention Midc ontinental in passing because I have not focused on them.

All I can say is the efforts that they have produced which I have seen remind me very much of The Manitoban, the University of Manitoba student paper, when once a year some naughty students got together and cranked out some material that they themselves judged to be rather unsuitable and sort of pulled a fast one and got it out and then there'd always be some kind of a furor as a result and the Midc ontinental issues that I have seen -and one

article in particular reminded me of that -rather juvenile and may be of Interest to a couple of dozen people who are friends and relatives of the people who crank it out. But in terms of the general public, of no interest whatsoever, and it would be very interesting to see their circulation statistics and to know what kind of support they would have on the open market. Mr.

Chairman, my concern is with HERizons which I think is an incredible publication, full of foul language, supporting the militant feminists, pro-lesbian, anti-male, anti-Catholic. - (Interjection) - Well, perhaps the Father has not had an opportunity to look at that publication, but if so, he might find that there is material for a number of sermons in there. I think that this is an incredible situation where you have the public funding a magazine that then, in effect, is an insult to the people who are providing those funds.

So you have taxpayers' money going to this publication, and then the publication takes that money and attacks men in our society, attacks ordinary women in our society from the militant feminist position, attacks Roman Catholics who are providing a good portion of that funding, and attacks normal people from a gay and lesbian perspective. So here is a publication, getting money, which I say they are not entitled to. If this is a good publication, let them publish. Let them take their case to the public on their own merits, devoid of federal funding which is highly substantial.

You have grants going to that publication in the past three years of over half a million dollars, but you have our friends in the Provincial Government, the Minister and his colleagues in the Department of Labour and his collegues in Tourism, and so on, putting ads into the publication, which is indir ect funding -maybe it's a technique for avoiding putting in di rect grants, but it's as good as any kind of direct funding. My first question is this.

Given that the program had a good intent and I think made sense In principle, namely that there are struggling publishers of magazines and books and periodicals in Manitoba and some of those I think are excellent. I don't regularly read Prairie Fire, but my impression is that it's excellent magazine. I do subscribe to Arts Manitoba, and although I don't read it from cover-to-cover, my impression is that it is an excellent magazine. How do these magazines get on that list?

Is there somebody there who is responsible for making that decision or did somebody just pump In an application form -ask for $5,000 or $1 0,000 or for a special grant in a letter that flew through the mail to the Minister - the Minister initialled it - sent it to somebody in the department who then stamped it and said, well let's give these people X dollars? Because I know the Minister gave $1 0,000 for a special grant and in my judgment these publications are unworthy of public support. I want to ask the Minister, first of all, who made the decision?

I assume it wasn't him, but maybe it was, but who made the decision to provide this funding? HON. E. KOSTY RA: The support for Man itoba published books and cultural periodicals goes back a numb er of years. I haven't researched when the Manitoba Arts Council first started providing support to products, magazines, and books that were either written, and/or produced by Manitobans, but the practice of providing support to those publications through the Manitoba Arts Council goes back a good number of years.

One of the publications that the member referred to, Midcontinental, has been supported, to a small extent, by the Manitoba Arts Council for a number of years under their cultural periodical program. There hasn't been any direct government support as such from the department to that publication, other than whatever employment grants that they might be eligible for like Careerstart or those kind of programs, like any other organization in the province, but last year's support from the Manitoba Arts Council was in the amount of $4,500.00.

They also received support from the Canada Council, so it's not only that the Manitoba Arts Council viewed it as a publication worthy of support, but the Canada Council, u.nder its criteria and its programs, have found it worthy of some level of support. In terms of HERizons, it has not received any support from the Arts Coun cil because it is not an arts publication as such, rather it's a social commentary.

The funding that the department provided for that publication was the special grant that the member made mention of, and that was for the cultural content in a special women's cultural issue which was a one-issue situation. The member did mention that they also received considerable federal funding and that's not something that I'm in a position to respond to, outside of to indicate that they have over the last number of years found considerable need for supporting that publication and have provided substantial federal support.

In terms of the specific program that the so-called controversy arose from was a program under the federal/provincial ERDA agreement, a federal and provincial government support program for cultural industries In the Province of Manitoba and is a joint 2119

Tuesday, 21 May, 1985 federal-provincial program. The specific component of cultural industries is administered by the province, on behalf of the Federal and Provincial Government. The specific program of support to periodicals and books was something that was recommended out of a publishing policy work that was done a couple of years ago for the province with respect to cultural industries.

The eligibility that was agreed to under the joint program, the federal-provincial program for support for periodicals, were that they were programs open to all Manitoba cultural periodicals, defined as literary arts criticism and social criticism periodicals that had to meet the following criteria: Principal ownership by Canadian citizens or landed immigrants domi ciled In the Province of Ma nitoba; ongoing operation, having published at least one issue in the past two years and actively planning publication in the upcoming year; published not more than 12 times annually with a specific and defined mandate as their editorial policy; either the publication of original literary works of the publication and criticism in either the arts or social sphere.

The majority of contributors were persons other than the principals and employees of the compa ny. Copyright for all published materials reside with the author. The publishing activity proceeded at arm's length from any parent corporate or body. The editorial decision-making in the sole autonomous control of the editor or editorial board of the periodical. That was the agreed-to criteria that was put In place after consultation with the publishing Indu stry and as approved by the federal and provincial implementing jurisdiction.

The program is funded on the provincial part through the federal/provincial ERDA Agreement with funds flowing from the Manitoba Jobs Fund to assist. The Idea behind the program was to ensure that there was greater Manitoba published materials placed In libraries in the province.

As indicated, with respect to school libraries and public li braries, each library was allowed a maximum grant to purc hase th ose publications from the list that they wanted in their libraries, and the decision rested with either the school librarian in the case of school libraries, or the public librarian In the public libraries, and would be governed by whatever policies are in place in those institutions for the purchase of materials. The grant would be awarded on the basis of them purchasing those programs.

The program has been very successful In terms of providing the libraries with the publications and books. The response was quite overwhelming and the support and the responses that we have received from the communi ties has been significant in endorsing the program and indeed asking for its extension into subsequent years, because the program was designed as a program to provide initial shot; in other words, to bring the publications into the libraries and into the schools, and was put in place in somewhat of a hurried fashion in order to get it up and running quickly.

There is some suggestions by the publishers, by both school and public librarians, that the program ought to be continued in some form in the future. Those decisions will be made after consultation with the various people affected by the program, and would have to be done under the terms of the federal/provincial agreement and with agreement from the Federal Government. I believe it was, and is, a good program

Document details

Collection	Manitoba — Debates (Hansard)
Citation	32-4-52a
Type	hansard
Volume / chapter	32nd 4th hansardpdf 52a.pdf
Language	en
Format	pdf
Source	PROVINCIAL
Identifier	28584e1512076df61476eace463826c1fdc29e10

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